Entering a New Phase

Hello, dear listener and welcome to 500 Year Diary. The only Doctor Who podcast that serves to rayify and ultimately contained the doctor's past in preparation for the show's exit from the long 50s and its entry into its new mode of Scruffy Beatnik heroism. I'm Nathan. I'm Brendan. I'm James And I'm Simon. It's the 5th of November 1966, and we're still not sure what happened on telly this time last week, and we're in no way prepared for how strange and unsettling the consequences are about to be. Something new is about to start, or at least to start again. Let's find out what that is as we discuss the power of the Daleks. So, I guess we're doing this in the absence of a real sense of what Patrick Troughton's performance is like. Mm. It's interesting. Like, listening to the soundtracks, and we can only really gauge the vocal performance there, it's not as energetic as it would become. And then listening to the Highlanders. It's a lot more energetic than it would become. And then really it's during the underwater menace that he settles into the character as we sort of know from the more extant stories later down the line. But there are flashes of it here. And even in the little snippets and clips that we have, there are flashes of that very animated face, alternating with the dark brooding. But yeah, it's such a shame we don't have this one visually. Yeah. The Super 8 fragments, I think, do reveal a lot. And now obviously you can't extrapolate about 30 seconds through to 2.5 hours, but nevertheless, I think that gives enough sense of how beautiful it was. And I was reliving this last night when I was looking through all of the timeline of destruction. There's a great website, which I'm sure Nathan will find out and put in the show notes, that goes through basically when everything's erased. And, um, it actually, what most made me to tears last night reading it again, I have a very long history when it comes to missing episodes and a passion for them and 0 god, it's painful. Because apparently the final prints of some of the episodes were not destroyed until 1978 or at least disappeared in 1978. Well, yes. I think there are other podcasts which delve into this sort of stuff more broadly. I don't want to claim to be an authority of it, but some of the relatively more recent information is that there was a guy who was destroying return stuff. There's no evidence that we know of, that now missing stuff was destroyed, but as late as 1981. Yes, intake of breath. But, and that could be, I mean, we don't know what was lost. But there's something inside me that thinks of all the Zambia prints, all of the Singapore prints, all of those things that may have been returned. Who knows? It's speculation. But I think the videotapes of power are one of the last to go. Fury is the last videotapes to go, power is towards the end. But if I can say, we should actually by right type episode six. I don't get into the way it's it. So, you know how a number of stories, a number of episodes in the 60s were not recorded, well, they recorded on 35 mil film in that the studio output was Celestini directly to 35 mil because that was going to be much easier for them to edit. Although I think sometimes it was because there wasn't a VT machine available. So I think the Daleks episode 4 is like that. I think episode 5 of Dalek Invasion of Earth, for instance, Space Pirates 2 is on 35 mil film. Now, those film prints ended up in the film library because that's where they were supposed to go. There were 3 episodes that were recorded on 35 mil, which we do not have. Power of Dalek 6, Wheel in Space 5, and Daleks 4. Now Dalex 4 is fight because we've got another version of it. But by rights, there should be too few missing episodes. Because of course, the videotapes were looked after by engineering but the films were looked after by the film library. And of course, you can't reuse film. No, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I listened to us talking about this on flight for entirety in preparation for this, and I remember making the point that this is just about the longest run of missing episode. Well, it certainly is now since the discovery of Galaxy 43. Yeah, okay. And the discovery of enemy and web, it's the longest run. Because there used to be 3 equal, I think, 13 episodes. But yeah. Yeah, yeah, so 10th plant 4 through... Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so when we did underwater menace, you know, underwater menace is pretty crap, but, you know, Troughton's performance is just instantly magical. So for a long time, this has been the missing story, whose absence from the archives, I felt most keenly. Oh, this is definitely my my one. Maybe macratera one. Oh, look. If we're doing if we're doing a specific episode, I'd actually put episode 2 of Power of the Daleks, that is my preferred, but as a story. because this was one of the ones that was part of the Omni Rumour in the early ones. And this was once, 0 my god, this was going to be just the best thing ever. Now we got some good stuff, obviously, but this is perhaps the most painful loss. More painful than for you from the deep, more painful than Marco Polo. But yeah, tragic. I mean, because we're reintroducing the doctor here, and we're used to a way of reintroducing the doctor that is very careful and that's built up to over a long period of time and that's sort of managed. And I guess, I guess the example I want to give is just the Eccleston speech at the end of parting of the ways, which is just very much a speech to the audience, to an audience who doesn't know necessarily about regeneration and has to have it explained to them. And I'm still going to be the same person and blah, blah, blah. Like all of this sort of stuff gets done to try and cushion the blow. And there's literally no attempt to do anything like that here. In fact, if anything, it goes out of its way to be unsettling. Yeah. In fact, even in episode two, at the end of episode two, Ben's still saying, is he really the doctor and the doctor's even playing up? Yes. Yes, he goes, the real doctor. Oh, yes. Oh, you mean the real doctor? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Something I thought of when watching it for this podcast. I was reminded of the war doctor. Now, when Matt Smith says when the war doctor is revealed, yes, I was the same man, but I didn't call myself the doctor, is the doctor deciding after his, depending on how he regarded his 1st regeneration or just the most recent of many, is he still thinking about, am I still a doctor? Or am I going to be somebody else now? Well, you know, if you watch this in the context of twice upon a time. It is a very crowded regenerator. Pit Capaldi around the corner, depending on which version you watch, you've either got Matt Smith or Shooty Gatwa standing in the console room going, don't worry, it'll be fine. Exactly. Yes, a lot of witnesses to this one. It is interesting to keep coming back to this regeneration in light of what we learn later. And the concept that maybe it's not the 1st regeneration was made explicit in the script, the original script from David Whittaker. He had the doctor saying, oh, yeah, I don't like doing this. I don't do it unless I absolutely have to. I fought it last time and I fought it there. Oh, here's an earring I used to wear. Yeah, like he'd been through it many times, and they compared in the script, the experience of the renewal was compared to him experiencing the acid trip, like LSD, and reliving all the worst parts of his memories as so like he's in trauma was the idea. Yeah, and that's all the shot, that's still there with all the shots of him, the headache, the sort of the... Yeah, yeah, yeah. and the odd vision and stuff. and stuff, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I had actually forgotten that. It's kind of funny because you kind of think that it's something that sort of hastily cobbled together in order to just get rid of Hartnell and have a new actor in the role. Yeah, yeah. And we're not going to explain it. And so it sounds like that's not what Whitaker intended at all. Well, if only they'd let Michael Goff do it. It's a big encapsulation of Doctor Who never having been the vision of one person. You know, it's when I get annoyed because I love watching fan Doctor Who opening title sequences, which often are better than what we get on TV, but people keep putting up created by Sidney Newman. And it's like, no. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's like Chuck in Verity and David Whittaker as well, and possibly Anthony Coburn. And, you know, as we're discovering to her. say that rated. That's being edited out. But, you know, it's kind of like here we have David Whittaker writes a script that's sort of heavy on mythology and then Jerry Davis and Dennis Spooner, who's sort of called back in to work on the script, go, no, no, no, let's pair it back. Let's bring back the mystery, but also David Whittaker overwrite scripts. And there's evidence of this throughout all of his work on Doctor Who that someone has to come in and go, no, David. And they're over, they overrun terribly. Yes, they would have to be cut right down. Yeah. Right up to ambassadors have death, which basically from episode 2 onwards is Terrence Dix, Trevor Ray and Malcolm Hulk. Right. Right. Yeah. But here, for instance, there is a scene in episode 3 where Ben and the doctor are sent for a medical and the doctor's physiognomy just blows up the machine and that's cut out by Dennis Spooner and Christopher Barry's like, oh, thank God, that was the most atrocious padding. What happens in part 2 of the wheel in space? The doctor is submitted to a medical and he has 2 hearts and everyone's like, oh, he's he's wrecked the machine somehow. I really have 2 ups. And then we run further with spear from space. Yeah, it gets in there eventually. Yeah, it gets in there eventually. But it just really encapsulates the Doctor Who is by the voices of so many people, right down to Patrick Troughton's presentation because, of course, famously, he wanted to be disguised and there is that story of he wanted to be in blackface. It was never done as a makeup test. It was immediately vetoed, but he did put on like a fake beard and a wind jammer, captain's outfit. Yeah, the Harpo Marks wig at one point. Yeah. And Sidney Newman just went, no, no, no, we want the cosmic hobo. Basically, we don't want you in that much makeup. And then the Harper Marx Wiig, as you say, came along and it was actually Anika Wills, who said, no, that's completely ridiculous. Took the wig off Troughton's head and said, comb his hair like a beetle. You know, so even the actors help create this. Yeah, and like they actually had written an initial character description for the doctor, which they reworked significantly during this story, because, like Troutton kept saying, how about we do this? Like, how about we just change that? Like, just sort of ad-libbing and getting more comfortable with the role and then they rewrote his character description by the end of the story, like the character description for future writers had been significantly reworked because they were feeling through it during the recording of this. Yeah, I think it also comes down to, you know, Doctor Who has many fathers and mothers is partly because of the way television was made at the time, particularly in the BBC. Remember, what we're really watching, and this also explains why so much doesn't exist. We watching theatre, which has been recorded for broadcast. And the process of making theatre, the actors and so on, like with Anika doing that thing with the hair. That's the sort of thing that you just do not get as much now. You do not get the ability for that level of person to contribute in large scale television and films in a way that you would have back then. So it's more kind of collaborative. It's collaborative. Like the theatre is much more. Even big theatre projects are much more, well, apart from the very big kind of, you know, Broadway musicals, but yeah traditionally... I mean, look at wicked. Wicked was significantly workshopped for about 9 months before it went to Broadway and completely changed whole numbers because of the workshopping. So, like, you actually get a much better product from that workshopping, I think. It's a huge loss. Yeah And Dr. is a mess, and I don't mean that as a majority, but it's a mess because of the fact that there are so many people working on it in so many different perspectives across over a long period of time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's great. I mean, that's one of the things I love about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think what's really interesting is just the doctor's absolute refusal to explain what's going on, even though Ben calls him out. And we have that thing where we have Polly thinks it's the doctor and Ben thinks it probably isn't. And even the doctor's not very sure. And and what we get is the doctor sort of really becomes the contents of this chest and the contents of the diary, you know. And so we go through, and in the chest, we get references to his old stories. And then, which almost never happened. Almost never happened in that era. Like, weapons is going to market probably 3 years ago. They mentioned one of the 1st stories. It's extraordinary. Yeah, and that sort of clunky foreshadowing. Extermination. Yes, yes. Yeah, yeah. And it's a piece of metal that doesn't look like anything we've seen the dialects use before. Yes, darling. But, I mean, there's that, and then he's got the 500-year diary. And so he's got these external objects that kind of represent who he was and he's not 100% there with identifying with any of that yet, which is why he keeps calling him the doctor even into sort of episode two. And I think he's kind of enjoying annoying Ben to some degree. Like he's actually kind of enjoying being slightly off putting and we'll come back to that when we talk about the very final scene of the episode. Also, of course, the 1st thing that he does when he arrives on the planet. Vulcan is he impersonates someone different. So he's impersonating another dead guy for like most of the episode. And I think that that's very deliberate and very telling. It's interesting, though. The way the doctor deals with the doctor's character has already changed. And there are hints of it and things like savages and war machines and so on like that. But I think there is a much bigger jump when we come to Power of the Daleks in terms of the doctor saying, no, we must stay. We't go back to the TARDIS. We going to stay and sort this out because I know what's going to happen. And you also get a kind of bit of a presaging of 2 of the cybermany kind of things when with access to the capsule and he sort of helps them get in. Yeah, yeah. But then later kind of denies, no, no, you can't do this, you have to destroy them. But then the very end of the story, Ben accuses him saying, Polly one of them accuses him of knowing what was going to happen or knowing what could have unfolded and he's all kind of unchalantable. No, no, he laughs. Yes, yeah, yeah. laughs in response. We'll talk more about that a little bit later. But this story is now historical because it's set in 2020. Oh, is that? I don't buy it. Just because the BBC continuity announcer says something that's in the Red Air Times does not make it. So Star Trek's already a thing, right? And I don't know whether it's shown in Britain yet, but it's curious that they actually call the planet Vulcan. Well, I mean, like Star Trek has started in September of that year. And this is November. This is November. Yeah. And I believe in the 1st couple of episodes, it's referred to as volcanus. It's not all. Yeah, at one point, Spock is referred to as volcanian. And we see maps saying volcanous. But by that point by November, it had been named Vulcan in an episode of Star Trek. So, like, there's no way that the production team would have seen that. There was no internation. It's an obvious thing to do. I mean, Venus is Vulcan's wife in Greek mythology. So you just pick another kind of figure, yeah. There's also the fact that Star Trek is not shown in the UK until either late 1969 or mid-1970. It actually takes Doctor Who slot either after season 6 or season seven. I can't. I think it's after, I think it's after 6 actually. Yeah, because they go colour. Yes, that makes sense. Introduction, yeah. Yeah, it's a matter of following the tradition of naming planets after ancient day. It's interesting that bucking Terry Nation tradition. This is not a volcanic planet. Well, maybe it's volcanic with mercury, right? Mercury. Yeah, like IO is sulphur. Yeah that's true. So maybe a mercury vulcated. Yeah, but I think it's also David Whitaker going, mercury pretty. Yeah, no, because he did mercury before. You know, like the, we've had a mercury. Loves his science, boy's own adventure stuff with all of the, like the Dalek having to recite the chemical formulas and... It's all such Whittaker. But I mean, there is something kind of alchemical about mercury. This is what Xander goes on about at great length, is the idea that the doctor is, a mercurial figure, particularly in this incarnation. And, you know, Mercury is heavily associated with his kind of weird childishness in the Daleks. You know, he drops the fluid link and we have to go back to the city for some more episodes. I won't watch them. But yeah, I was thinking about the mercury thing as well, because I'm kind of like, it serves the nation function of separating them from the TARDIS. But as Polly and Ben point out. We can still walk around out there. We can still go back to the TARDIS if we want. I was kind of thinking, okay, so why Mercury? And I was thinking about that scene where Ben tells Polly not to touch it. And it's like, Mercury is beautiful, right? It is shimmery. It is shiny. And we know in the modern day that it is dangerous to touch. The Daleks represent this technological advance for the colony and something they can use to barter with earth. And, you know, it's implied that there is sort of colonial tension with the home planet because the examiners arrived and no one knows why and oh, they're spying on us. This could give us leverage over Earth. So I do actually think for, you know, for once, it's thematically relevant to sort of have the mercury there because it doesn't play any function later on in the story. No, I mean, and it's quicksilver. a liquid and it's a metal and it's always been a sort of very strange thing and it, you know mercurial means changing constantly. And we've got the doctor doing that here. I think it's a Whittaker thing, though, isn't it? think it's just a whittier thing, the Mercury. just loves it. And it is immediately alien world. Yes, yes, it's not pools of acid and stuff. acid. Now mercury. that's right. Enough mercury. So the thing about the colony, I think, is really kind of interesting, because I don't quite know how to read what's going on there politically. So it's clear that there are rebels and Bragen, the head of security, who is the wonderful Bernard Archard, who was Marcus Carmen. And he talks about their newspapers and the small acts of sabotage newspapers. hilarious. It's very delightful. It's like their notice board. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That gives the messages. There's their notice board, which has bad wolf. Just tremendous. He was starting earlier. I did actually freeze frame and read the notice board, which did seem to be about milk supplies or something like that. Oh, this is on the holiday. Yeah, yeah, yeah. One of the one of the like radios or something has from Magpie Electronics. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I don't quite know how to read it because because they're rebels, I am inclined to think that I'm meant to be on their side. 1966. Well, it is 1966, but I guess the closest that we've had is the savages at this point. And later on when we have rebels, you know, because the doctor will eventually turn into someone who overthrows kind of authoritarian regime. Yeah, that's right. And so the rebels tend to be the good guys, but I do think that we are actually a bit early for that as the obvious reading it. I might be back reading it into it. There are rebels when, for instance, the Daleks invade Earth. There are rebels. So we've already had rebels in that way or when the Xerons are invaded. They are the rebels, but we're sympathising with them because they are the invaded. Yeah, I think a more accurate way of reading this is that everybody is a bastard. Yeah. Oh, no, I absolutely think that that's the reading. No, I'm not quite prepared to go that far. Well, I think that what it is because we never find out what the what the rebels want and what their grievances are. No, we don't. And it seems like the governor that Henschel is kind of politically popular. And I mean, the closest thing that we get to a conversation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The closest we get to an actual political conversation is a conversation between Janley and Rezno, where Rezno's clearly kind of against the rebels and Janley's, one of them, and he knows that. Well, yeah, they have this sort of angry conversation with one another. And then Leicesterson says, this is a scientific laboratory. This is no place for your politics, and we put a stop to it. But that whole political thing, it's not explained in any way, but it does seem to be, this is the sort of thing that human beings do and this is the sort of context in which human beings regularly kill one another. But there's also, I think it's towards the end of the last episode. There's an interesting line between Quinn and Valmar where he basically says, oh, you know, Henshaw, you know, he wasn't a bad man. Yeah, he was a bit stuffy, a bit stuck in his ways, but overall, he actually cared about this colony and wanted to do good by it. Yeah. What's that to Velma? that to the doctor? That was to the doctor. But Quinn and Velma do sort of represent the 2 sides by the end of it and agree to work together to rebuild the column. Yeah, yeah. So if you think about colonialism at the time and the Reish Empire is well on the way to being dismantled when this goes out, but nevertheless, there are still governors of Kong and all that sort of stuff and, you know, all the African states are still kind of getting independence around this time. So it's quite clear that there is no democracy on this planet because the governor would have been sent by Earth as a basically a bureaucrat, right? Quinn's the deputy governor and Breagan's head of security or whatever. They are bureaucrats running a colony. There doesn't seem to be any evidence at all that there is any kind of democratic process within the colony itself. Having said that, I don't get the sense that the rebels are democratic revolutionaries. They're not trying to say we want to be able to vote for our governor. More rebel than a rebel. Well exactly. It's interesting, this could be just me. I view the rebels as communists. And I'm wondering whether they're supposed to be viewed as communists because Bragan is a fascist. As soon as he assumes the position of governing. Yes, puts on lovely, lovely, you know, the epaulettes and things badges and things. That is Hugo Boss. Yes, exactly. And for me, Quinn and Hensel are the centrists, are the ones trying to manage, as best they can, the divisions and just try and get us to tomorrow and make sure that we get to next week and next year. So Janley and Bragan are trying to use the communists to overthrow the status quo so that they can then seize power as the kind of more fascistic. Because, of course, if what is the 1st thing Reagan does, he institutes martial law. Yeah, yeah. But I think I think because we don't get any specific idea of the grievances and the problems that we have to read. it in. What's pencil doing wrong? Yeah, that's right. I think that that makes it much more just a political thing because I think one of the things that the Daleks do is that they comment on what's happening in the human realm. And so we'll get to that, I think, when we talk about the Daleks in a moment. But I think there's a deliberate generality towards that. If they were sort of complaining about, you know, methane rations or something tedious. Yes. You know what I mean? Yeah, if they had space reasons for their thing. That would have been much worse and we just sort of talking about political activity. I feel it stronger because we don't really know. Yes. We don't need to know. There's obviously stuff going on that they're dissatisfied with. Yeah. And it also means that we as viewers don't, we don't hate Hansel. We don't hate Velma. I hate Keble. I would argue we don't even hate Janley all that much. Oh, no, we don't. Although, she's very brutal. That thing, where, where, it's Resno, isn't it? is killed, and we're told, and I think we're inclined to believe it, that he's just in hospital. and we've got no way of knowing that that's not true. And then later on we discovered that she's just dragged his body into a mercury swamp after he was killed by the Daleks. Actually, like, it's not even, oh, she thinks he's unconscious and then realises like, she knows he's dead when she's checking. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. lies about it. to use it later against Leicesterson. And Velma does say later she's not as bad as you think. Because he was like, he was like her boyfriend or something and he kind of overhears her chatting with Brake and about killing all the rebels. Yes. I'm always sympathising with Hensel and Quinn as the people who and you know, Quinn, because Quinn is trying to warn Hensel about you know, you can't trust Bragen, you can't just, you know, you're not listening to me, provide the advice. I think because we don't get a sense of what their grievance really is, it's in some respects, it's just that, well, we just think we can do a better job. And I think that is actually a thing. I was actually going to put it, and I wonder whether this is a Whittakerrism, going back to the birth of the show, the idea of historicals. There is something about this, which feels like it's happening in the context of an historical event. Like, I think all of that political chicanery is going on to, it's a bit of world building, but it is, it's, it's this idea that the doctor and co have arrived in this place where this stuff is happening. It's just the fact that we don't know historically what it is. But it does have that feeling. And then the Dalek stuff is overlaid onto that. And I think that's one of the reasons why it's so powerful and successful. as a story. Well, you know, Whittaker's perspective on historical intervention in Doctor Who, he outlines at the beginning of the crusade novelisation, which is basically, even if the doctor and his friends were to influence an historical event like telling a military leader not to turn up, something else would happen to make sure it happens. So it's therefore interesting that... And that's basically the Aztecs line. Yes, yes, effectively. So it's therefore interesting that as opposed to the Rosa line. Yeah. It's therefore interesting that the doctor at no point attempts to influence the politics of the colony. The doctor's sole thing is attempting to stop the Daleks. And that's the thing. As soon as Bragen replaces Hensel, The doctor's still saying to Bragan, right, well, then you need to stop the doctor. You know, the doctor doesn't care that this fascist has taken over this little human colony. Oh, well, stop the Daleks, please. But also, isn't it yes, but isn't it interesting that the doctor until the very end, the doctor's trying to get the authority to stop them? Yes. He's not saying, well, they're not doing anything about it, so I'm going to plant a bomb or I'm going to do whatever. He only does that when it's basically there's no other way. Well, early on, he does, when there's just one Dalek activator. He does try to overload it. He makes he makes friends with Leicesterson and then throws a switch. But yeah, then he does kind of go, okay, well, if they're not, if they're not going to listen to me, I have to work, I have to sort of work within their system. So, I mentioned that the doctor, or at least the 1st doctor in this story seems to inhabit a box, and of course, there's another box in the story, which contains the Daleks. And so when we 1st see the Daleks, it's just 2 of them covered in cobwebs. And it seems to me that the Daleks are a bit crap at the beginning of this story. And this story, I think, absolutely serves as a proper origin story for the Daleks. So we start with them as sort of being shrieking monsters in a city. I think I may have said this in FTE. Then they invade Earth, then they start chasing the doctor, then they are going to blow up the galaxy. And they become the, you know, they're the Mekon, aren't they? They're like some weird giant space opera thing. And that's not how Whittaker sees them. Because when the doctor describes the threat that they pose, the threat that they pose, the thing that they do better than anything else is exterminate human beings. It's not they exterminate. Yeah, the weird aliens salation. Like they don't, like, that's not, that's not what he talks about. Yeah, and he takes that to a further degree in evil where he basically says they are the opposite of... Yes. Remember that we're still in that kind of zone where they call anyone who looks like us around the universe human. But, but I do think it's kind of telling that we get them in a human colony, not a foul colony, not, you know, anything like that. This is a human colony and they're a threat to us. But, you know, like Leicesterson says they're replacing us in episode six, you know, they're the, they're the sort of new, yeah the next, but I do think that there is some way in which the dialects are enabled by the politics of the colony because Leicesterson's a fanatic and and because Bragan is a fascist and all of that sort of thing and it's people's ambition and human greed and stuff like that that allows them to be unleashed. But I think that it's interesting the way that they they track the escalation of the politics of the colony. So killing Hensel is done by a Dalek. It's not breaking just getting a gun out. And in episode six, which starts with the Daleks declaring that everyone in the colony is to be killed. The very next scene has break and declaring that all of the rebels are to be killed. And so there's going to be a massacre in that final episode either way. And so thematically, I think, the Daleks become identified with human evil and the human propensity for killing. You know, Whitaker's original idea for why the doctor hated the Dalek so much in this story was because they had destroyed his homeworld. Well, isn't there that thing? There's that thing that's never explained, whether he says something about the Daleks and then he says, and there's something else about them that I can't remember. You know, yeah. So, I mean, it is a direct line from here. Like there's a reason why the daleks become the enemies of the timelords, you know, because it's the dalek that recognises the doctor. Like, absolutely. Yeah, post-regenerate. Yeah, yeah. I think that's an interesting point. They could have so easily say, oh, the dialects aren't going to know who he is. But we're supposed to believe there is a sort of flash of recognition there that the doctor is recognisable even after a generation. That's why they keep trying to kill him when they're being ordered not to. It's like, try to stop that killing me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And like, that's at a time where still Ben and Polly are squabbling over whether it's the doctor. It's in episode two. And it just sees him. It's in the office. Yeah, and we see down the down the tube. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And like Ben recognises that the Dalek recognises him and that's definitely what's happening. And so they're the doctor's opposite as well. Like they're not just human evil kind of personified. They become a mythic enemy to the doctor. I think the other interesting thing that does go back to basics with the Daleks. you know, the whole static electricity thing. The whole, they are fragile. They're not, even though, you know, they've got these war machining casings. They've still got strength that they need to build up before they can take over, even in episode 5, or we are not yet ready to teach these human beings the law of the dark. We're not ready, we are not powerful enough. It's that thing that I believe was said. I don't know whether this is an unkind thing that was said, but apparently the worst thing that happened to Terry Nation's writing to the Daleks was that he saw the Daleks. So amazing, which is why the writing of the Daleks, it changes. Once we see them and we hear them, the writing changes. Now Whittaker is remembering the original concept. And especially when we have the, like, the, you know, we get the Dalek mutant, I think for the 1st time, really, we get a Dalek mutant since the Daleks, they've kind of disappeared, that stuff is all brought back and the little, you know, bubbling ball of hate or whatever. McCoy calls it. There's even a light in the story where Ben describes the Dalek as having a claw, like in the original story, even though the prop doesn't have any sort of whatsoever. I just thought, because the proper looks like a hand puppet scuttling on the floor. Yeah, it is. The other thing I want to mention about the way the Daleks are in this story is how much it presages Genesis of the Daleks. Not so much as an origin story for the Daleks, but the way that there is no Dalek in the 1st episode until the very end. Yes. Then they gradually appear one by one. First, there's one, then there's three, then there's more. And by the time you get to episode five, there's 1000000s of them. Well, a bunch of cardboard ones in there. many of them. You know, taking control. And I think that's one of the reasons for me why it's one of the most successful dialect stories is because they're not used too much and they build and the menace builds more and more. But every cliffhanger is a new stage in them, every cliffhanger is a dale cliffhanger. And the I am your servant one, that incredible one at the end of episode two, where they're drowning out the doctor's warnings. Like a doctor is saying they'll kill you all. Shouting the doctor, shouting over the doctor. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, like he tries to kind of do that again with Evil of the Daleks and the dizzy doctor stuff. you know. But this, like it just doesn't compare to how great this is. And every episode ends with the Daleks entering a new phase getting that little bit more power. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, the incredible cliffhanger to episode four, much of which we can see. The Darling Passionland. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you think that's better than this? Darius Conquer on disjoint. Oh, no, Carl. No, no, no. That's absolutely superb. That's a massively great moment. So that's episode five. But I think episode 4 is really good because, like, like the script is structured around the fact that we have only 3 props. I think there are 4 props there. But, like, there's very much a, there's that moment where they say oh, just make sure that they only ever see. Actually, they actually cannibalise the 5 props they had to make. Right. Right. Oh, they had five. Yeah, they had they had 2 original ones, one that had been refurbished from a movie Dalek. Really? And a lightweight one that had been made for the chase, and I think another goon from the chase. And I think they put together the best parts of the goon. But, I mean, because there's that great moment at the end of episode 4 where the Daleks, there's just heaps of Daleks coming through that doorway. And they're cleaning a paws. Three, then a pause. Yeah, there's a pause. Like you can actually count. Yeah, that's right. That's right. That's their peddling. He's trying to get around the corner. But, you know, there's minutes and minutes of no dialogue at all. It's entirely visual and you've got Leicesterson there. So he's observing it and he sees it happening and of course it kind of drives him mad because of what he's done. But I do think that it is an origin story of the Daleks in the same way you get Leicesterson saying, I gave you life. I gave you power, I can take it away. There's so much Nider and Davros, Sydney. Yeah, yeah, yeah. well And the way his story evolves. I love the fact Leicesterson goes mad in stages. Like there's that moment of realisation that, I think, in episode 3 and then in episode four, he starts to think, no, no, no, this is definitely wrong. And then it's seeing the Darlic production line that he goes properly mad. And even then his madness changes throughout, but the time you get to episode six, he's going, oh, no, but you know, they're our future and that's wonderful. You know, he just goes completely dimensed. You could not do that. I don't know, I'll come back this many times. You cannot do that in 45 minutes. Yeah, you don't have time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You need something like a six-part story either. I mean, he's terrific. So he is, of course, the high priest of Demnos in Mask of Mandragra. And he's Van Glynd in the 1st episode of Blake 7. And I reckon... But you know who we haven't mentioned is Mr. Chin. Yes, Mr. Chin. Robert Bathurst? It's your head on the rock, Blagen. Not mine. So great. So good. And in the in the animation, actually, I think that Leicesterson comes off very well because he's just got such an incredible look. I mean, so does Bragen, obviously, but both of them are such. I mean, they're great performances, aren't they? Like all of the guest performances. All of the guests, with the possible exception of one or 2 of the rebels that only get one or 2 liners of dialogue are fantastic. They're all good. They're all thought through. Yeah. Magic. Yeah, big shout outs as well for Pamela Ran, Davey, and the only female as only. The only female other than... Oh no, there is a female extra that gets exterminated. Yes, that's right. That's true. Who doesn't return to Doctor Who, but the following year to this would be seen in the Avengers, in quite a similar role, she's nominally a ghost hunter. She flirts a lot with Steve to get her own way, but actually turns out she's 2nd in command of an underground fascist organisation. When I say underground, I mean, they're literally underground. what are you doing that? the 3 hatch game. Well, I suppose we could pair it up with bizarre, because that happens. You just need to find a Kathy Gale with an underground world. I just wanted to shamelessly plug that. Yes, thank you very much. But her leader in that is Julian Glover by the way. wonderful. Something that's so interesting to me with the Daleks in this is the new series has arguably reinvented the Daleks 3 times, in Dalek, the Hory of the Daleks and Resolution. And each time it borrows elements from this. So Van Staten basically wants the dialect to be his servant. And in Rob Shearman's very early drafts, Ben Staten's motivation was to get the Dalek to sing Happy Birthday to his wife. to turn it into a toy basically, which is what Leicesterson wants to do. And there's a scene in Dalek where the doctor is giving the dialect orders and orders it to die here. The doctor orders it to immobilise itself. Victory of the Daleks. Just shamelessly ribs it off. Shamelessly rips it off. The doctor is needed in order to convince the Daleks to produce the ultimate dalek. And it's kind of a moment for the audience to go, oh, this is definitely the doctor because the Daleks recognise him just like it is here. And then, of course, in resolution, the doctor scares the Dalek by saying, scan me, you know who I am, and that sort of propels the Dalek's plan forward. And what does it do? It takes over human communications networks in an effort to take over the world and summon its own kind. The new series when it revents Daleks, it doesn't go for going back to Skaro. Except for Magician's Apprentice, which is familiar, which is not really a reinvention. It's just going back to Scarrow. It is a kind of genesis of the Daleks in the sense that it restages those conversations between the doctor and Danfrost. But it's not an origin story for the Daleks in the way that this is, I think. Yeah. I think too, there is something about the static electricity as well. So the daleks and the humans have a different kind of power, but they're both dependent on power, and it's episode five, which is perhaps the episode with the least incident in it, despite the death of Hensel, it's a little bit slow because you've got a, you know, the great cliffhanger of 4 and the great cliffhanger of 5 and we're just kind of... Yeah, but there are some terrific shots of Daleks with sort of curly cables, you know. which is kind of great. But that link between the power of the colony and the power of the Daleks, it's the link between them that enables the doctor to destroy them. And it's at the end where he feeds back the power and ends up destroying the power structure of the colony. You know, the power structure of the colony, the power structure of the Daleks is seen to be linked in the way that kind of metaphorically the Daleks and the kind of human politics are linked. And so when the doctor destroys the Daleks, He destroys the colony's power system, its power structure, and then leaves, and he's being questioned by Polly and Ben, as we said, you weren't very convincing. You did look like you were kind of just letting this happen. What's the deal? And the doctor just laughs. And I think that that's a real moment for this new doctor that sets him apart from what we've had before. Yes, it's literally just, oh, you've blown up our power system. What are we going to do? It's like, come on, let's go. Yeah, before they say this bill. very kind of thing. before they say the bill, they always do that. They always leave like before they actually say goodbye. It basically continues throughout the whole era. Like, um, later in macraterra, they're like, let's get out of here before they make the doctor the leader in the moon base. It's like, let's just go. Let's just go. Before they start asking awkward questions. Yeah Yeah. Even through to, I think, Seeds of Death. where Commander Radnor turns around to ask for the doctor's help and he's already got it and they run back through a rainstorm to get to the Tartars. So, yeah. I mean, it is what we saw, I think, the trial run for this in the savages, and it's the thing that Stephen Moffatt is referring to when he says the doctor drops out of the sky and tears down your world. And this is the mode that the doctor will operate in now. And we've had a doctor who has been keen to get out of the situation. Like... Yeah. And we have that conversation, don't we? Where Polly says, can't we just leave? And the doctor doesn't actually say, no, we have to stay here and save these people from the Daleks at all. He just ignores them. You know, he just ignores it. So he's not sort of set himself up as a kind of crusader. He's not saying that he's here to hell. But that also is that fluid link thing from the Daleks about, I'm just doing what I want to do and if you're with me, well, you're just here for the ride. Yeah, I'm the driver. Yeah, yeah, I'll leave when I want to leave. Yeah. And he does, I mean, he does want to destroy the Daleks, but he doesn't mind the fact that he's also destroyed the power structure of the colony as well. Well, it's a bit stupid that Quinn's complaining that, you know you've destroyed our power structure. Itll take months for us to sort it out. I mean, for God's sake, you were all being slaughtered. Yeah, in a sense, perspective. Calm down. But it's almost like in order to cure the disease, the doctor needed to, not the disease of the dark existing, but also the disease of the power struggle within the colony and all that. The doctor needed to let the Dalek thing run its course to a certain extent. He couldn't have just turned up and blown them up when they walk into the capture at the end of part one. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like he needed it to play out in order for the humans to be able to reconcile with each other. And I think what's interesting is that we go from the situation in episodes one and a bit of 2 where we don't trust the doctor and we don't know who he is. And then, you know, towards the end of it, we start to get a sense of him and we're more on his side. And then at that very end where Polly and Ben confront him and he just laughs and walks off, we're back to a doctor that we're kind of alienated from and who's refusing to allow himself to be understood. What colony? There's 2 people there. There were a lot of people on the outer perimeter. The out of primitive interior. There'll be a gene. One of the questions that this story raises is about versions. Yes. You know, so we've got lots of shaders. Yeah, that's right. But we have 5 doctors. Yeah, we have a number of these as well. So 7.5 to 8000000 people watched Power of the Daleks back in the day. I'm willing to bet that most of them are dead. That's bleak, isn't it? But a whole bunch of them are dead, I would say. Well, they were, most of them were children. No. Yeah, well, yeah, no, some of them probably were children. But do you know what I mean? Like quite a few of them are no longer with us. And so the versions that we have now. Yeah, even if, you know, generative AI and so on actually does come to the party in due course, you're never going to get a reflection of what it is. There's always going to be yet another version. And then even when we get the 1st version of that, there's 5 piece later, it's going to be another version. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That doesn't mean that we can't appreciate the story because 90% of it. I mean, the important part of it is there. You know, the script's never going to change the audio is never going to change. If I can just go back a bit if I may, and sort of just think about how we've got to where we are now. Yeah, okay. Now, when we all encountered at different times in different publications, but for some of us who are older, I mean, the early 80s is when we, you know, get like a celebration or, you know, the 20th anniversary radio time special. I know that it was mentioned in Dwim earlier. But that's when you discover, 0 my god, there are all these episodes that don't exist. What we also discover is that the synopsis for Power of the Daleks in like the making of Doctor Who or in those magazines is like 2 paragraphs or possibly one paragraph. Now, no normalisation, Power the Daleks is mysterious. It's unknown. And also, for me in 1983, it's unknowable. Didn't really think that there would be an audio copy of it. We just thought, it's gone. You thought, oh, maybe it could come back and you're optimistic but it's gone, right? Not even a John Peel novelisation. No, but Sophie, why isn't it been novel? Anyway, point is, not even novelized. So it's so mysterious. Then we move through sort of the 80s and you get the revelation there are audio copies of things, which are appalling quality. Just unlistenable. And then I think it's a DWB in 91, something like that. I don't know, someone will correct me, don't at me, please. Um, but that's when suddenly we discover that there are things these things called tele snaps. So then suddenly we have all this photography representing every 60 seconds or so there's a photograph. Suddenly there are these images that we have for the 1st time. Then people start going, hey, we can put the audio onto these photos. Now, the 1st version of this I saw, I think it's around 1993 something like that. Around the 30th anniversary, I get this videotape from a friend the 1st reconstruction I've ever seen, which, let's face it, is utterly unwatchable because, you know, I mean, how they possibly did this back then. I don't know they even it's so primitive. But nevertheless, and you know, the photos were changing so infrequently. The audio was such bad quality. I gave up 15 minutes in. I just it was just hopeless. Then, we realised that there's all these clips available. Not the super eight, but then there's all these other clips that appear like found from the sea from computer thing that Damian Shanahan finds and there's other bits that were in Blue Peter and stuff. All those bits of footage are kind of, if not found, maybe they're already known to exist, but in terms reach the fan consciousness. And it's not long. It's around that same time that they find that those films are super eight, of which Power of the Daleks one and 2 have a remarkable amount. Right. A remarkable amount of. so much. 10th planet 4 is the only one that comes close to matching it. So suddenly this thing that was completely, there was one paragraph for me in 1983, starts to have all this stuff. And then the proper reconstruction start. As people are able to sync them better with PowerPoint and so on like that, output things, the video signals. So I think it's 1999 that I get my 1st proper reconstruct. Oh, and then they find better quality audio copies, strong audios which are quote unquote, crystal clear. Suddenly we've got audios we can listen to that are decent because those ones that we talked about earlier where Tom does the narration too. They were pretty rubbish. They were not nearly as good as, even though they were cleaned up as the ones that we know and love today. Anyway, point being that suddenly for the 1st time, I sit down and I hear about these reconstructions. I'm shown by a friend in the UK, episode one of the Savages, in episode one of Marco Polo. And we go, oh, this is going to be terrible. We're very cynic. We go, this is going to be unwatchable. I saw this power of the Daleks singing ages ago. was terrible. I watch it. And we both turned to each other after we watched the 1st episode of savages and we went, That was actually really quite cool. I actually really enjoyed that. I can watch another one. Don't have time to watch anymore at that time. Then I'd come back to Australia and I'm fine, right, where can I get these? Lovely guy in Australia called Bruce Robinson, who is making these. He's like the Australian wing, right? And then joint venture becomes this combined thing. I don't know the full history there. But the point is, so his ones had the script at the bottom. That was important too. So I had his copy. So the very 1st 2 that I got from him were Power of the Daleks and Enemy of the World. Oh wow. And that's why I always said I was an advocate for enemy of the world because I was watching enemy of the world and I was absolutely captivated. Likewise, I was captivated by Power of the Daleks. Yes, it was still a bit cranky at the time, but then the way it drops into this footage. The way you see that super 8 footage. And I was gripped. I didn't watch the whole thing once. But I was able to watch multiple episodes in a row without going oh God, I can't keep watching this. terrible. Now I know some people deride them as slideshows. And that's fair enough. It not for everybody. And I also think that it doesn't suit every story. There are lots of stories which are terrible, which don't exist and watching a reconstruction is bleak. Right? The massacre. Well, there are no telly snaps now. Yeah that's right. It's the problem. But the ones with Telus, I'm talking about the ones with Telesaps and I want to make that distinction here. Marco Polo is another one that I can watch over and over again. Oh, yeah. Because there's so much visual material. But I suppose the point that I'm trying to say is that for me, I respect the animation teams very much, I appreciate that they're doing an awful lot with probably very little resources. They need many times the budget that they actually have in order to do something. I'd also note that the animations have become more and more distant from the actual story itself. When power was done, it was the 1st story to be done in its entirety before we'd just been filling in holes. It had just been invasion one and 4 and so on. This was the 1st round answer, and it's relatively faithful, not shot for shot exactly, but it's relatively faithful to stylistically to the original story. And they make choices. And that's fine. understandable choice. But for me, no, you're right. We cannot experience what they experienced in 1966. But I feel when you are a Doctor Who fan, as deep as I am in that era, I've watched a lot of these surrounding extent episodes so many times, you see those steel images on the screen, you see those flashes of Super 8, flashes of things, and you go into a kind of a trance, a stupor, and you're almost imagining that you're watching the moving footage and you can feel what Trouton's doing and you can feel what the other actors are doing because of the text and title. The look on Trouton's face at the end of episode 2 during which you see on the Super 8 footage and then the Telesapse is just astonishing and I think that that's what carries me through that and the ability to win it, then goes back to a still image. I can keep watching. I just feel that that is all swept away and lost when you watch an animation. Well, that's all the time we have for this week. We'll be back again next week, or in three years' time, to see what happens when they cancel our show again in Spearhead from Space. In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts and you can keep up with us on our website, 500yearDiary.com, where you'll find our social media links, as well as links to all of our other podcasts, including 2 Doctor Who podcasts, flights through entirety, and the 2nd great and bountiful human empire. Until next time, remember that it turns out that Hugo Boss Duds are no match for a Dalek neutraliser. Thank you very much for listening and good night. Good night. See you soon. Bye for now. That was 500 Year Diary, starring Nathan Bottomley, Brendan Jones Simon Moore, and James Selwood, the theme was composed by Cameron Lamb. This episode, entering a new phase, was recorded on the 9th of March, 2024, and released on the 14th of April. This has been episode 281 of Flight 3 Entirety, and season one episode one of 500 year diary. If you want to hear the rest of 500-year diary, goes a 500-year diary.com or look for us in your podcatcher of choice. We'll see you again next week. For me, um, watching original Star Trek and Star Trek The Next Generation with new opticals. I think, I think if anything can be done to make these accessible to an audience now, it should be done. They're not, neither of those shows are Shakespeare. And what existed in the past still exist. It's not like Star Wars where you can now no longer get a decent copy of Star Wars that was released in 1977. These versions don't erase the original. Um, and... So we're saying they have new special effects on them. The Star Wars, the Star Trek. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So these versions don't erase the originals. And and for us now, you know, the power of the Dalek special edition also includes literally every bit, every bit of realia that... Sure, but not, but I mean, I didn't, I didn't have the 2020 version of the 2016 Blu-ray, and the, the reconstruction that's on that is just a slideshow, whereas the fan reconstruction has all... Does the 2020 reconstruction have the moving footage in it? I think it does, but I haven't watched it, but I remember that was one of the things they interest. That initial 2016 animation, though, is a bloody miracle that actually happened. initially... No, no, initially they were given 10 months to get it done. And then a decision was made high up at the BBC that they would launch it on the 50th anniversary of the story. Yeah, right. Which meant that their time frame was cut from 10 months to five. So the entire thing was done in such a compressed time frame, it's amazing, it turned out so well. Oh, yeah, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not saying that you're writing. And in some respects, whether I'm talking about the viewer experience. And also, just to your point, Nathan, about making this stuff accessible to as many people's. Fine, great, absolutely. I am a little sceptical about the willingness of children of today or people who are not not even children. People who are just haven't been Doctor Who fans since, you know have only been Doctor Who fans in the new era, shall we say? The interest, I'd have thought the interest in this missing material is very niche. And I think they are kind of, there's something about me which thinks surely they are kidding themselves, is they think they are expanding the audience with this tinny mono soundtrack, regardless of the quality of the animation. You know what I mean? There's a limit to how much you can do. Yeah, it'd be interesting to see, it would be interesting to see because so much of this is now up on iPlayer in the UK. you know some stats. Yeah, some stats. Which we'll never get again. We speak. No, we speak, we're speaking, you know, the week after the release of a new version of the Celestial Toymaker, where the animation style is literally nothing at all, like what we got to see, which people were raving about. I think that's somebody there. It's kind of the psychedelia of the entire thing matches. Yeah, it matches the concept of the story. Whereas I think that it's a betrayal to everyone involved to give people the impression that that's in any way a functional story. So when are we doing the celestial job? I think that might be a fair way down the front. But you know what I mean? Like, I, I, I, with a soundtrack as, as poor as it is, I'm highly sceptical that how many people who aren't specifically missing episodes of Ascionados or people who are really, really, really introductive, are going to be into it. It's not surely it's not a vehicle for new audiences. Well, my, my thing is, I'm, I'm, I'm absolutely all behind Make Pavma Sambova actually look like he's 200 years old. You know, but at the same time, so long as, as you say, Nathan, the original version is in some way in circulation. Something I do find very interesting when this debate comes up is fans who saw Tomb of the Cybermen at the time, when the print was rediscovered and it was coming out, there were lots of sort of interviews and things with them saying, oh, I can't wait to see it. That moment at the end of episode one, when a cyberman walks out and when Toberman throws the cyber controller across and it was so convincing and then we get it and it's a mannequin at the end of episode one and an empty cyber controller suit where the head falls off. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, on a 32 centimetre screen with bad reception with with sort of blurring at the edges. It probably looked wonderful. Oh, and memory as well. Memory as well. And the fact that as children, when we want when we want something to look good, we overlook its form, of course. you know, And I say this as a gamer who is still interested in games from the 80s and 90s and I go back to them now as an adult and I'm like, okay, I can see the pixels. I couldn't see the pixels when I was 12 because I wasn't looking for them. Pixels are part of the channel. We're all Doctor Who fans. Can I guess say? conversation's finished. Yeah. So sorry, where are you going with it? Oh, well, um, so it's, it's just kind of like, I think sometimes when the animation teams change things, it's to make it try and give a new audience the same feeling they had when they were 7 or 8 or nine. Oh, I do not. Yeah, I do not object to the change. And that's the thing, like, I don't think you, I completely, it's not completely logical for all the reasons you say it. Yeah, I think there are people who begrudge those changes and say that this is a betrayal of the original source material. And there's people, I think, who make up the vast majority who are like, it's like, oh, yeah, this is fine with me, which is the camp I'm in, and the camp you're in, which is, oh, I wish it was as close to the original as humanly possible, but I understand why they did that. Yeah, no, I'm not saying I wish. No, I'm not saying I wish the animation. No, I was just observing that power is more effective because then they start to... I don't mind the celestial tourmaker route. Yeah, absolutely. Why not? Because for me, it doesn't matter. Oh, do you know what I mean? It's an animation. So let's try something else. Okay, great. Because you never go, it's more that I still, and I still think and I know it's very primitive at the moment and some of the, but there are some very good samples. There are some very good samples, but there are some very good samples, and I wonder whether the animation thing is going to be a blind alley that in 10 years time, we're going to be looking at these, AI generated episodes, that are going, hopefully cross fingers, if they go, if they do do it, hopefully are more faithful to the original, because I think that you can be more thankful to the original. Yes. That's what I'm observing. I love how faithful this is to the original. Yes. To the point where that moment, I think it's in episode 4 where the Dalek bumps into the camera is in the animation. Yeah, hilarious. Because they took out the, they took out the, in the actual episode. They took out the zombie bumping into the cabin in the web planet. So I can't trust these people. is back in the end of the world. Fabulous.