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NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-10-11 at 20:30:34

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to 500 Year Diary.

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The only Doctor Who podcast, which has the strength of 34 thick, reinforced concrete.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Corey.

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I'm Peter.

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And I'm Simon.

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It's the 8th of March, 1975.

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It's been just under a year since the Daleks blew up over the planet Excelon and unwittingly brought an end to an entire era of Dalek history.

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And tonight, 10.80000 people have tuned in to watch Terry Nation creating the Daleks again.

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This will be a moment that will live in history.

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It's time to discuss Genesis of the Daleks.

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So, we talked last week about how Death to the Daleks was kind of the first opportunity that many people had to own a Doctor Who story at home of their very own.

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But obviously the LP version of this was kind of that, wasn't it?

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And I have to say that I've listened to it 5 times this week.

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Can I just say, I stepped on the TARDA sold to a bleak planet.

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Oh, look, that was...

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Oh, so much to say about that.

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I mean, for me, it was a cassette, not an LP.

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I would listen to it almost every night going to bed.

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You know, I'd have it on in my bedroom, 30 minutes either side.

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So listen to it so much that the tape did actually break.

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And I spent a lot of pocket money buying a 2nd one.

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So special.

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I mean, that whole edit, the fact that even though obviously cutting a 2.5 odd hours down to 60 minutes is, you know, there are some brutal choices and choices you can make because there's audio that you can, you know, move around.

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But it actually taught me so much to edit that later in the day, you know, in the 80s, I was making my own condensed versions when, you know, when VHS tape, still very expensive.

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You know, I created a 90 minute audio cassette version of the side of Urians, a 90 minute version of the 2 doctors, for instance, that sort of thing, by pausing and playing.

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This is from a videotape.

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But yeah, it's so brilliant, but it also taught me so much about language and how actors speak and the rhythm of lines and the fact that almost every line in this story is delivered by almost every actor so perfectly, it just lends itself to being on audio.

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I think this audio, we probably all had the same experience, I think. really contributes to this story's immortality.

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The fact that we knew the soundtrack so well.

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We knew all of those lines so well.

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And isn't it strange that we in Australia had the same common experience with the LP version of Genesis as people in Britain did when we were seeing the genuine article on television every year.

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That's extraordinary, isn't it?

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This actually makes me very sad because I had it on LP.

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And when I came out, I divested myself of much of my Doctor Who collection, because I was now homosexual, so I didn't need that anymore.

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I'm not entirely sure the 2 things are not...

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I really had a long journey.

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I've made my way back to myself, but I sold it and it's sort of heartbreaking that I sold it as part of unloading a lot of my collection, but prior to that moment, that record was played incessantly.

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And I mean, I agree with you, Simon.

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There's something about listening to, you know, sometimes Terry's dialogue is a little bit wooden, a little bit flat, but all of those actors really elevate every word that they're given in that story.

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And as a theatre director, like with most Doctor Who, you really learn the importance of vocal technique and command of language and how to milk everything out of the words that you're given.

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And yeah, I think the LP really brought that to the surface for me.

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So yeah, I'm with you on that.

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Just to expand on that too, Corey, and I'd be curious to hear your thoughts about this as a theatre director, is that the way that a lot of these lines are delivered in Genesis and in a lot of a lot of this era, in fact, the thing about how they're elevated for me is not just what's said, but the pauses so often when words are emphasised and then there's a pause and then the next sentence.

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Too often in regular television, particularly regular television, this era, every line follows the next so fast.

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It's like they're just eager to get it out so they can all go home.

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You get a sense that they're almost treating this dialogue as if it's Shakespearean.

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Can I just say, Simon?

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Midnight, general. pause.

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The order specifies midnight.

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Absolutely.

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And not to mention the Uber famous.

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Thank you.

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Long pause.

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That's what I wanted to know.

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The rhythm of that, you know, the fact that we could recite it perfectly, precisely to rhythm.

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I mean, that's that LP version and a wasted childhood.

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I was watching it last night, actually, and it struck me as being Shakespearean.

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And so many of these actors worked on the stage as well.

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So they bring that to the work.

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And sure, it's a little BBC science fiction program going out on a Saturday night, but they all treat it so deadly seriously.

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And they recognise the world that's being created in this story and the stakes that are being played.

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And they bring that to every line and absolutely, a pause can be just as powerful as the words that are being spoken, if not more powerful.

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And certainly with characters like Nider, for example, I mean, he doesn't have to work for his power.

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He just has it.

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And so he can absolutely say things like midnight, the order specifies midnight in such a way that there's no doubting his authority.

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There's no doubting that if you do not meet what he's asking of you, you will come to a sorry end.

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He doesn't break a sweat.

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There's no beads of sweat on that man at all.

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And that's what makes that character so delicious.

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So I agree with you.

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There's something Shakespearean about it as well.

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Absolutely.

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There's something about a meeting of the moment in Doctor Who.

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And I think you couldn't get away with such portentous dialogue delivered so dramatically in a story like the Sontarian experiment or Revenge of the Side member, because this is Genesis of the Daleks.

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And it is the story of these revisiting the beginning of the Daleks and their origins and the fact that it's become such a famous story amongst Doctor Who fans and viewers because it's so good.

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It's like the case of Andrazani.

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You can get away with a lot more because the stakes are very high.

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And I think there's just something so suitable about that.

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If we're going to use the example of Peter Miles, I think Nider is very important to this story.

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He proves my thesis, I think, that every great Doctor Who villain also has a great henchman.

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So you will see Magnus Greel and Lee Sen Chang or Tobias Vaughan and Paka.

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And Neither is the purest example of that.

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Davros, who I'm sure we will talk about, is a fantastic Doctor Who villain.

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Nider, in his own right, is a fantastic doctor in villa.

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I was going to say, I think, and in some respects, you'd say this about Lisa and Chang and Magnus Grill as well, is that they're not villain and henchmen, they're co-villains.

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Yes.

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Neither is 100%. collector me.

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Exactly.

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They are elevated, thanks to the dialogue, but thanks to Peter Miles, Nyder is elevated to one of the greatest characters in Doctor Who history, as a villainous characters, for me, level with Harrison Chase.

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Oh, yeah, absolutely.

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And the scenes where he's actually plays different tempos.

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So he's not just being commanding Nider, but he's sort of, he's fooling Garman into giving him the names of the other scientists.

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He plays so many levels within that character.

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Tom Baker on the behind the sofa, says in an affectionate way that Peter Malis has been dining out on that character ever since.

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He's since passed away in the last few years, but he should.

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Like, he contributed so much to this story and Doctor Who.

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And in fact, Simon, remember, you and I have personal experience of Peace Miles.

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I interviewed him in 1995 and he was absolutely lovely.

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Lovely old queen.

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He used to do kind of, you know, jazz recitals and we went along and saw one or 2 of them.

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And he had this tick, which was so charming, where I was like his new confidante for the months after I met him.

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And so he would occasionally phone up to where we were living because, you know, home phones back then, not mobiles, and he would ask to speak to me and Simon would say, yes, can I say who's calling?

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And he would say, oh, just tell him it's his new friend for 1995.

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Did he show you did he show you his Nazi paraphernalia that because he wears some of that?

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As seen on screen?

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seen on screen.

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Yeah, briefly seen on screen, we might have.

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At some point, David Maloney was like, darling, perhaps not for this story.

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That marvellous scene with the Dr. Sarah and Harry, where they're getting the tape back from the safe, and he carries that scene, he is on a par with Tom Bacon.

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Oh, he's so wonderful.

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I cannot sing his praises enough.

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It's just the way like it's like, you know, uh, you know, uh, Davos could never rise from his chair, correct?

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And just the way he goes, well.

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It's lovely, but it's so perfect.

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It's just a line of dialogue, but it's not just a line of dialogue.

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It's so brilliant.

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I mean, another brilliant moment from Peter Miles is when he talks about mutos being discarded relics. of ourselves.

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I mean, it's just...

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Your views are not important.

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He does it with such a lightness of touch, and yet the gravity of what he's describing, what it means to the story in general, and the history of this world that Terran Nation's built up in this story.

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It's not lost at all, and yet he doesn't work that dialogue.

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He just kind of gently rolls it out.

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And it's spine chilling, really.

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It really gets under your skin.

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You compared this to Caves of Andrazani, Peter.

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And I think it does have a lot in common with it in that most of what's going on is political rather than just action.

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And it's not something that I think Terry has really done that much of before in Doctor Who.

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There's hints of it, I think, in early Daleks, masterplan, maybe...

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Yeah, maybe, maybe, like in the last couple of episodes of Keys of Marathon.

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But this very, very clear science fiction world, a little bit like Andrazani major in Andrazani minor.

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You know, like there's this place that we have a real sense of, and we have different political groups that have things that they want that are different, and, and, you know, we start with the thals versus the Khalids and the Khalid government and stuff like that.

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And then the college government obviously disappears from the 2nd half of the story for the obvious reason that they've all been blowed up.

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And then we have the rebels or the resistance within the bunker.

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Led by Space Betan.

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I've always known her to her appearance in Bleak 7th of Devonshire.

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You like her?

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But like all of that stuff is so unlike Terry, do we think that it's Bob Holmes?

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No, I don't think it's unlike Terry.

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I just don't think it's something that he visits very often.

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If we cast our minds forward to the 1st episode of Blake 7, the way back, we see a very similar society and political kind of dynamic at work.

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Yeah, I think it's more to do with how he thinks he should write a Doctor Who story.

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And I suspect in conversations leading up to the writing of this, or how are we going to do this, what's going to happen?

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That's when perhaps he's given permission to explore that more, they discuss, yes, let's talk.

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How are the Daleks, what is the circumstances around their creation?

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And that's, I think, how we get to that point.

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You see a lot of season one, Blake 7 in this story.

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As I was watching it last night, I thought this, this is clearly what he had in mind for Blake 7 and maybe Hinchcliffe and Holmes were like, no, no, no, we're changing how we tell our Doctor Who stories.

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You have permission to take this further.

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Don't be afraid to take this further.

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Whereas you get the sense that lets and dicks were always just slightly erring on the side of caution and we know that Lets has been quite vocal about I wouldn't have made those choices where I still producing Doctor Who, you know, certain things that were played out in the Hinchcliffe era.

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He didn't think they were appropriate for Doctor Who.

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But yes, certainly with the new team coming in, running the show, it feels like Terry Nation being given permission to really push the story forward into something that's, yeah, the precursor for Blake 7 for sure.

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One of the reasons I think one of the reasons it's different and one of the reasons why I love it so much, easy because the Daleks are actually secondary.

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They're not actually the most interesting thing about it.

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It's the creation of the Daleks.

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It's the world around that.

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It's the same reason I like power of the Daleks so much is because the Daleks are not there from the get go being boring talking to each other.

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They're reduced in presence.

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And I seem to recall that that was one of the ambitions of doing this story the way they did it and about the subject that they did it so that whilst it was a Dalek story, the Daleks weren't going to be in it too much.

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Am I right there?

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Is that...

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I mean, that was actually the brief that was given to Therio, the death to the Daleks, was to move the Daleks into the background, but I think it makes logical sense because you don't want to focus on the Daleks as characters.

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You want to focus on how they became the Daleks.

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I've always been on the fence about the Daleks.

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I have to be brutally honest.

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I've never really signed up to Dalek mania, so to speak.

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And I'm with you, Simon.

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My 2 favourite Dalek stories are this and power of the Daleks for that very same reason.

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It's because they're actually not foregrounded, and they become much more interesting when they're a threat in the background rather than the main villain, as it were.

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So I think that's why this story is really a favourite of mine for sure.

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I mean, I think, you know, the combination of Bob Holmes and Terry Nation, both of whom, you know, have a tendency towards writing much bleaker and nastier Doctor Who than perhaps other writers.

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Like I just think that that actually works incredibly well here.

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Just watching this again reminded me of how great, I think, season 12 is, because I think it is really great and in its entirety, like all the way from robot to revenge of the cyberman.

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It's incredible.

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It's doing kind of what Daleks masterplan sort of wanted to do.

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Maybe, maybe.

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This is the 2nd story in a row that doesn't have the TARDIS in it, despite what the LP says.

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That's the only time that...

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I stepped from the time ring onto it.

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I materialise.

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And so this is bleaker and nastier than, I think, I want Doctor Who to be sort of generally.

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And in our 1st flight through entirety, through season 12, there was a lot of talk about just the number of the sheer number of dead bodies that Sarah has to clamber over.

184
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They have been at war for 1000 years, isn't they?

185
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Oh, look, I see, it's funny because, I mean, for me, as I said last week, you know, and I've said before, Planet of the Spiders was my 1st introduction, episode two, to be precise, and I'm hooked from there.

186
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So I see this very early in my Doctor Who live.

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It is unquestionable that I'm a Doctor Who fan because of how all the stories from then, for as long as the repeat run went and I don't have the data on me at the moment, but it went right up to where it went up to.

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But my god.

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It would have been talons or invasion of time. something like that.

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But the point being that I just had story after story after story.

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Some are bleaker than others, but most of them are bleak.

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The stakes are high, but not in a stupid way.

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People die.

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Yet, you know, there's still love and affection amongst the TARDIS team.

195
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I just think it's not too bleak for Doctor Who this is.

196
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That's right. can't overstate this. not threads.

197
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It's exactly.

198
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It's hardly threads.

199
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It didn't mortally damage me as a seven-year-old, which I wasn't the time watching it. strong moral case, which is presented, which is presented in this story, particularly, but in all the stories.

200
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It's always made me think the doctor is always at its best when it's trying to do what it does in this period and Genesis is one of the many pinnacles that you get in this in this era.

201
00:17:23.460 --> 00:17:24.059
That's right.

202
00:17:24.119 --> 00:17:25.980
And let me pick up Nathan on something that you said.

203
00:17:26.039 --> 00:17:42.839
I was glad to hear you kind of talk about Robert Holmes interrogation in conjunction with each other because you've identified before that people don't want to give the success of horror of Fang Rock to Graham Williams because it's very good and because it feels like the previous era.

204
00:17:42.900 --> 00:17:50.279
They want to take that away from him and say that he was somehow not responsible for that and it must have been homes or a leftover of Hinchcliffe or something.

205
00:17:51.660 --> 00:17:54.000
People want to do the same thing with Terry Nation.

206
00:17:54.059 --> 00:17:56.940
They don't want to give him the success of this story.

207
00:17:57.180 --> 00:18:01.319
They want to say, oh, it must be because Robert Holmes rewrote it rubbish.

208
00:18:01.619 --> 00:18:07.619
It must be because the Hinchcliffe home sensibility overrode whatever Terry brought to the table.

209
00:18:07.980 --> 00:18:08.579
Nonsense.

210
00:18:09.180 --> 00:18:13.440
This is absolutely unvarnished, distilled terry nation.

211
00:18:13.859 --> 00:18:16.319
This is always what he has set out to do.

212
00:18:16.619 --> 00:18:23.099
But he has the benefit of a sympathetic and simpatico production team delivering it for him.

213
00:18:24.059 --> 00:18:37.920
I want to kind of say, maybe it's a yes and or maybe it's a yes, but I'm not for a moment suggesting that, you know, half of it's rewritten by Robert Holmes, although we do know that he was sometimes heavy-handed with the rewrites of some of his stories.

214
00:18:38.220 --> 00:18:39.359
He was not in this case though.

215
00:18:39.539 --> 00:18:39.960
Okay.

216
00:18:40.140 --> 00:18:42.720
But everyone's not working in silos.

217
00:18:43.440 --> 00:18:45.960
And that includes the director that includes the actors.

218
00:18:46.559 --> 00:18:49.980
The tone is generated from the top.

219
00:18:51.180 --> 00:18:58.859
Philip Hinchcliffe, Robert Holmes, set the tone of what they're doing in the conversations they have with Terry Nation during the script.

220
00:18:58.920 --> 00:19:01.619
You know, they don't just say, oh, go off and write us a 6 part Dalek story.

221
00:19:01.680 --> 00:19:03.059
It'll be about the creation of the Daleks.

222
00:19:03.119 --> 00:19:04.619
Bye, send us the script in 2 months.

223
00:19:04.680 --> 00:19:05.759
So this one's going to feel like.

224
00:19:05.819 --> 00:19:06.900
This is what's going to be like.

225
00:19:07.019 --> 00:19:10.799
There's discussions, there are scene breakdowns that are sent through, all that happens.

226
00:19:11.039 --> 00:19:12.180
There is nudging.

227
00:19:12.240 --> 00:19:13.019
There are suggestions.

228
00:19:13.079 --> 00:19:16.079
And as I said last week, Terry was a professional writer.

229
00:19:16.140 --> 00:19:20.700
He wasn't precious about, oh, I cutthrowout my idea from that page.

230
00:19:20.759 --> 00:19:22.140
I'll go and have a nervous breakdown.

231
00:19:22.200 --> 00:19:23.339
He'd say, yes, that's a great idea.

232
00:19:23.400 --> 00:19:24.000
Let's do that.

233
00:19:24.180 --> 00:19:26.279
All of those suggestions, he'd feed in.

234
00:19:26.339 --> 00:19:34.440
Yes, they were probably on the same page on the overall tone, which he wasn't necessarily getting, perhaps from Marielets, maybe not getting quite so much from verity or others.

235
00:19:34.500 --> 00:19:39.299
And so it's that, and that from the top, that extends to the production.

236
00:19:39.420 --> 00:19:41.759
It extends to the hiring of David Maloney.

237
00:19:41.819 --> 00:19:43.859
It extends to the briefing of David Melanie.

238
00:19:43.920 --> 00:19:46.920
It extends then to what David Maloney is doing in the rehearsal room.

239
00:19:49.259 --> 00:19:53.940
And the casting of Peter Mars, and how you deal with the actors and how the actors then respond to each other.

240
00:19:54.180 --> 00:20:01.319
That this is not some great big joke that we're all just going to have fun and do a recording of that starts from the top.

241
00:20:01.680 --> 00:20:20.220
And that, I think, is why you get a story like Genesis, and I think why people say that something like Horror of Fang, like, oh, you know, it's horror of Fang Rock is like, oh, leftover, Hinchcliffe and blah, blah, I can't possibly Graham Williams, is because Graham Williams is a different style of producer, taking the show in a slightly different direction, that has not yet kicked in properly.

242
00:20:20.279 --> 00:20:24.539
People are still responding to the the Paddy Russell's, the director of that.

243
00:20:24.599 --> 00:20:29.220
People are still responding to how they they're used to making Doctor Who and what Doctor Who is.

244
00:20:29.279 --> 00:20:34.740
And only then does it start to change and you can see that flow gradually take place throughout the rest of season 15.

245
00:20:35.039 --> 00:20:44.940
But the time it gets Genesis and Daleks, in the middle of the recording block of season 12, the tone of Holmes and Hinchcliffe is well and truly established and that's what Terry's feeding off.

246
00:20:45.299 --> 00:20:50.940
And of course, we have in this case, the Terry Nation draft of episode one to compare it.

247
00:20:51.059 --> 00:21:00.059
It's called Dalek's Genesis of Terror, and it has been adapted by Big Finish. because it is very similar to the episode one that we get on screen.

248
00:21:00.599 --> 00:21:07.980
There's cosmetic differences to it, and Robert Holmes has come in and he's tickled up the dialogue here and there, as Philip Pinchcliffe puts it, which is what he did with everybody.

249
00:21:08.039 --> 00:21:10.920
It's what Chris Boucher does with Terry Nation on Blake 7.

250
00:21:11.220 --> 00:21:13.500
But the basics are Terry.

251
00:21:13.740 --> 00:21:15.240
It is his story.

252
00:21:15.299 --> 00:21:19.319
He is just working in conjunction with what the script editor and the producer want.

253
00:21:19.859 --> 00:21:27.480
I think a good producer and script editor team set out the parameters for which their writers need to deliver their script.

254
00:21:27.660 --> 00:21:29.220
This is what we're doing with this season.

255
00:21:29.279 --> 00:21:30.900
This is the tone that we're working towards.

256
00:21:31.680 --> 00:21:35.759
But then they need to let those writers do what they do best, which is right.

257
00:21:35.880 --> 00:21:43.500
As long as they've got the framework and they know which direction this season is going, aesthetically, tonally, what are we doing with our TARDIS team?

258
00:21:43.559 --> 00:21:52.920
What do we need to consider from the previous story and the story that's going to come after it, which was particularly important with this season with the TARDIS, not in the picture after in space?

259
00:21:53.160 --> 00:22:00.000
And then they empower those writers to do what they do best, which is an Terry Nations case, you know, do what he does best.

260
00:22:00.059 --> 00:22:01.019
I agree with you.

261
00:22:01.079 --> 00:22:06.240
I think you can absolutely pick the moments where Robert Holmes is sort of elevated dialogue.

262
00:22:06.779 --> 00:22:20.880
I think there's also moments, and Tom, we know Tom, this was Tom's MO in rehearsal of Tom Baker, and possibly Ian Mata, finding moments in rehearsal where fantastic little quips and lines were added in in rehearsal.

263
00:22:21.359 --> 00:22:23.099
I had a moment of revelation last night.

264
00:22:23.759 --> 00:22:25.319
Did you have a moment of remembrance as well?

265
00:22:26.460 --> 00:22:27.420
That too, I think.

266
00:22:28.019 --> 00:22:31.019
You know, in our Messenger chat when I quoted no tea, Harry.

267
00:22:31.859 --> 00:22:34.619
And then later in the story, they're in the holding song.

268
00:22:34.680 --> 00:22:37.980
There is a kerfuffle outside and Harry says, perhaps it's the tea.

269
00:22:40.380 --> 00:22:43.259
For the 1st time in my life, I heard that line.

270
00:22:43.680 --> 00:22:54.779
And, you know, moments like that, I think, in such a dark story, to have little moments of levity like that, I think are just sort of little nuggets of gold.

271
00:22:54.839 --> 00:22:56.880
I think that's probably come from the actors, I think.

272
00:22:57.599 --> 00:22:59.759
I can't seriously credit terrienation with something like that.

273
00:23:00.240 --> 00:23:04.380
But certainly I agree with you, the producer and the script debtor should empower the writer.

274
00:23:10.980 --> 00:23:21.299
And it's interesting what you say, Corey, about basically the production team giving the writer the scope to do what he does best because Terry is doing what he does best here.

275
00:23:21.420 --> 00:23:31.559
This is his checklist of kind of war and societal collapse and stark moral arguments, and it's like everything's been turned up to 200%.

276
00:23:31.920 --> 00:23:39.119
It's the most perfect iteration of all of the things that he brings to Doc 2 and all of the things that we've come to know is his tropes.

277
00:23:39.240 --> 00:23:41.519
And by default Doctor Who's tropes.

278
00:23:41.940 --> 00:23:46.019
See, I don't think this is very homesy, despite the politics of it.

279
00:23:46.440 --> 00:23:47.460
The comedy is lacking.

280
00:23:47.519 --> 00:23:54.839
Exactly right, because Bob Holmes puts comedy and locates it in the guest stars and sometimes in the villains.

281
00:23:55.200 --> 00:23:59.099
Nyder would have been a camper, funnier character. he's not a camp character at all.

282
00:23:59.220 --> 00:24:01.440
I think that's a misreading of what he does, I think.

283
00:24:01.559 --> 00:24:04.140
It's one of the things he does Uh, maybe.

284
00:24:04.200 --> 00:24:05.519
I think there's...

285
00:24:05.519 --> 00:24:10.319
I mean, what are the other Hinchley Vera stories?

286
00:24:10.380 --> 00:24:14.279
Not stuffed Holmes writes for Black 7 or then for the Williams era and beyond.

287
00:24:14.640 --> 00:24:18.240
Things like David Dacre's character in The Time Warrior, for instance.

288
00:24:18.720 --> 00:24:21.420
Condo in Brain of Morbius is very funny in places.

289
00:24:22.380 --> 00:24:24.720
Yeah, I don't...

290
00:24:24.720 --> 00:24:26.339
Those two...

291
00:24:26.400 --> 00:24:27.359
Yeah, maybe, okay.

292
00:24:27.420 --> 00:24:28.319
Okay, but not anyway.

293
00:24:28.380 --> 00:24:42.119
And, you know, like, obviously later, Paul Seed, the absolute goat of Bob Holmesville, and, you know, just absolutely hilarious without actually realising it and possibly without Paul Seed, even realising how funny he is.

294
00:24:42.119 --> 00:24:43.799
And there's none of that here.

295
00:24:44.039 --> 00:24:45.779
Like all of the comedy.

296
00:24:45.839 --> 00:24:54.119
I think, Corey, you've correctly identified is happening among our regulars, you know, where they're making the lighthearted remarks to one another.

297
00:24:54.480 --> 00:24:59.339
But no one, I think, in the guest cast is funny, really, in any way at all.

298
00:25:00.720 --> 00:25:04.980
I mean, I suppose maybe what I'm talking about, is it's when Arch Spillen becomes funny.

299
00:25:05.039 --> 00:25:17.400
I mean, there are certain sort of certain likenesses to Harrison Chase where the arch becomes camp and we've got the arch that becomes sort of camp sometimes with Peter Miles, as Nider, but he doesn't have the high camp of some of the others.

300
00:25:17.880 --> 00:25:19.440
They're not allowed to go that far, I think.

301
00:25:19.799 --> 00:25:21.660
Well, it's funny to ask, do you know what I mean?

302
00:25:21.720 --> 00:25:27.720
Because we've heard it over and over again because we can repeat it and because it is so theatrical and artificial.

303
00:25:28.140 --> 00:25:32.759
But in the actual thing itself, there aren't many laughs here, really, at all.

304
00:25:32.819 --> 00:25:35.099
And that's not Bob Holmes's MO.

305
00:25:35.279 --> 00:25:38.759
And it goes back to what we were saying about this being a high stakes important story.

306
00:25:38.880 --> 00:25:40.619
It's like the caves around Desani.

307
00:25:40.680 --> 00:25:44.460
There's nothing funny about what's happening to any of the characters in this story.

308
00:25:44.519 --> 00:25:46.200
It's a desperate situation.

309
00:25:47.880 --> 00:26:01.380
And also, you know, it's Terry Nation, his great gift is turning those kind of bleak preoccupations that he has, which are sympatico with homes in Hinchcliffe, into clean storytelling and adventure storytelling.

310
00:26:01.799 --> 00:26:09.480
And so this has the structure and the antics of a Doctor Who story while at the same time being something elevated.

311
00:26:10.200 --> 00:26:21.299
So, for instance, I think there might have been a couple of times when this was on where I didn't see episode one, whenever I see episode one, it's kind of like I'm not quite...

312
00:26:21.420 --> 00:26:23.940
No, no, it wouldn't have been out of time. no one would do that.

313
00:26:25.680 --> 00:26:27.180
What sort of monster do you think I am?

314
00:26:27.660 --> 00:26:30.059
So you didn't know that now was where we could begin.

315
00:26:32.279 --> 00:26:36.720
I certainly remember seeing it for the 1st time and not having seen it the 1st time through.

316
00:26:37.259 --> 00:26:39.359
I may have missed it the 1st time through.

317
00:26:39.660 --> 00:26:42.480
And there is that that really great.

318
00:26:42.720 --> 00:26:48.660
I think it's a pretty great action sequence and we forget that that's something that Terry Nation does really well.

319
00:26:48.960 --> 00:26:52.859
And it is where the doctor and Harry Escape.

320
00:26:52.920 --> 00:27:00.539
That wonderful moment where you think they've got away with it and then Nyda just says, Ravon Down, which is so good.

321
00:27:00.960 --> 00:27:06.059
And then they actually make their way up to the surface and then they're surrounded by people with guns and they have to go back down.

322
00:27:06.119 --> 00:27:11.940
And all of that is kind of time wasting, except that we're here for action sequences as well.

323
00:27:12.599 --> 00:27:14.880
It doesn't technically feel like capture escape either.

324
00:27:14.940 --> 00:27:17.400
It's sort of deepening the desperation of the situation.

325
00:27:17.460 --> 00:27:18.240
They can't get away.

326
00:27:18.660 --> 00:27:20.400
And that's what I said before about these sorts of things.

327
00:27:20.460 --> 00:27:22.500
It's padding only if it feels like padding.

328
00:27:22.559 --> 00:27:22.980
Yes.

329
00:27:23.039 --> 00:27:38.400
I mean, that's all missing from the LP for obvious reasons because it doesn't advance the overall plot, but it does advance the threats level and the fact that in some respects, it tells the car-eds that the doctor and Harry are something else.

330
00:27:38.640 --> 00:27:40.680
They're not mutos and they're not fun.

331
00:27:41.220 --> 00:27:43.140
And that's how you get neither involved.

332
00:27:43.319 --> 00:27:45.960
We'll find out what's different about them by autopsy.

333
00:27:46.740 --> 00:27:48.599
But that's what sends them to the bunker.

334
00:27:48.660 --> 00:27:50.460
So there is a story progression there.

335
00:27:50.519 --> 00:27:53.279
But it's how you plot out of 6 parts.

336
00:27:53.400 --> 00:27:53.640
Exactly.

337
00:27:53.819 --> 00:27:59.579
You don't just shoot your load the 1st episode and then just walk around for the next 4 episodes and then come back then.

338
00:27:59.640 --> 00:28:05.220
There is a sense of, okay, if it's going to be 6 episodes, how do we pace out the story so that it doesn't get dull?

339
00:28:05.279 --> 00:28:06.660
And it never gets done.

340
00:28:06.839 --> 00:28:12.839
No, this Harry Nation by 1975 was someone who had almost unique experience of structuring a Doctor Who story.

341
00:28:13.019 --> 00:28:19.200
Yes, but can I also add, for me, what episode once feels so much like is a heartwool episode.

342
00:28:19.559 --> 00:28:26.220
And I don't mean that, that it's incredibly slow and Hartnell 1st episode, where it takes forever and that you only meet people at the end.

343
00:28:26.279 --> 00:28:27.779
But there is something about the logic.

344
00:28:27.839 --> 00:28:44.640
There is a, there are long sequences with just the TARDIS crew, while they're getting through the, the, the wasteland with the mind and the artillery raid and all that sort of thing where they're almost a shot for shot replica of what you see Wendy Padbury doing in Wargames. directed by David Maloney.

345
00:28:44.700 --> 00:28:44.880
Exactly.

346
00:28:44.940 --> 00:28:46.079
Even the rhythm of the shells.

347
00:28:46.140 --> 00:28:47.160
Boom, boom, boom.

348
00:28:47.220 --> 00:28:48.660
It's even the same as war games.

349
00:28:48.779 --> 00:28:54.000
Well, I mean, the thing about War Games is that the doctor's shtick doesn't work in War Games, episode one.

350
00:28:54.059 --> 00:28:55.380
I'm a desperate high station.

351
00:28:55.440 --> 00:29:01.440
Yeah, yeah, that's right, because we're in a real war because we're in the 1st World War, which was a real thing that actually happened.

352
00:29:01.500 --> 00:29:02.099
We're not.

353
00:29:02.160 --> 00:29:08.400
But it's a real thing that actually happened and that the doctor can't fix because he's just a fictional character.

354
00:29:08.460 --> 00:29:09.480
So he can't cope.

355
00:29:09.539 --> 00:29:11.640
The doctor Shtick doesn't really work here.

356
00:29:12.180 --> 00:29:14.400
He still gets to say funny lines.

357
00:29:14.460 --> 00:29:20.279
He still gets to score points off people, but he can't talk his way out of things here.

358
00:29:20.880 --> 00:29:25.200
And so like that episode one thing absolutely makes that clear.

359
00:29:25.319 --> 00:29:30.599
His usual stuff is not going to work here because there's just too many people with guns around.

360
00:29:31.380 --> 00:29:36.480
And I think you see that importantly in that early scene where the doctor gives one of his scripts.

361
00:29:36.539 --> 00:29:38.940
Yes, you look the type and get struck.

362
00:29:38.940 --> 00:29:39.359
Yeah, yeah.

363
00:29:39.420 --> 00:29:41.819
Which doesn't usually happen to the doctor.

364
00:29:42.059 --> 00:29:54.180
You also find in those scenes Terry's absolute gift for concise and expeditious dialogue, that wonderful moment where the doctor turned around and says, Khaled's, K-A-L-EDS.

365
00:29:54.240 --> 00:29:55.619
Why, that's an anagram.

366
00:29:55.859 --> 00:29:56.579
How interesting.

367
00:29:56.880 --> 00:29:57.299
Yes.

368
00:29:57.299 --> 00:30:00.299
Which teaches everything you need in 2 lines.

369
00:30:00.839 --> 00:30:03.420
And again, it comes back. those beautiful pauses.

370
00:30:03.480 --> 00:30:04.740
He doesn't have to say the words.

371
00:30:04.920 --> 00:30:06.480
It just we all know what he's thinking.

372
00:30:06.539 --> 00:30:09.059
It's just a brilliant line and a brilliant performance of that line.

373
00:30:16.740 --> 00:30:22.259
Are we able to change direction and talk about how bloody brilliant in Mata is in this story?

374
00:30:22.619 --> 00:30:26.160
I think this is Ian Marta's best story.

375
00:30:26.160 --> 00:30:39.420
In watching it last night, I was reflecting on how much of a buffoon, Harry is turned into in revenge of the cyberben, and that might be Jerry Davis sort of not being fully across the character and the potential of that TARDIS team.

376
00:30:39.480 --> 00:30:45.960
But because Sarah is removed so early in the story, we are given Tom and Ian for much of this story.

377
00:30:46.799 --> 00:30:51.480
And of course, you know, Tom commands your attention whenever he's in front of that camera.

378
00:30:52.140 --> 00:30:58.740
However, I would argue that Ian Mater, by doing very little, does a lot in this story.

379
00:30:58.799 --> 00:31:11.220
He doesn't have a lot of dialogue, but every time he speaks, the line is full of thought and intention and integrity and clarity, and even when he's sharing the screen with Elizabeth Splayden as well.

380
00:31:11.279 --> 00:31:18.480
So if we think forward in the story to where we get the famous, do I have that right speech, where he's about to blow up the Daleks.

381
00:31:18.660 --> 00:31:22.079
And it's really, it's foregrounding Tom and Liz in that scene.

382
00:31:22.440 --> 00:31:23.819
At Liz gets all the dialogue.

383
00:31:23.819 --> 00:31:29.519
And in just is in the background, but he's never not present and serving the moment.

384
00:31:30.119 --> 00:31:34.140
And I think it's a sign of what a brilliant actor, Ian Marta, really is.

385
00:31:34.859 --> 00:31:37.259
And he doesn't have much to work with.

386
00:31:37.319 --> 00:31:38.940
I mean, what do we know about him?

387
00:31:39.000 --> 00:31:41.880
He's a naval officer and a doctor.

388
00:31:42.539 --> 00:31:44.940
He's only qualified to work on, say.

389
00:31:45.900 --> 00:31:47.640
And that sort of bit, really.

390
00:31:47.880 --> 00:31:56.460
And yet he's able to sort of fill out that character and bring what we know about him to every moment in this story.

391
00:31:56.759 --> 00:32:04.799
And if you can share the screen with Tom Baker, have very few lines and still absolutely command your attention.

392
00:32:05.519 --> 00:32:07.259
Then I think you're a damn good actor.

393
00:32:07.259 --> 00:32:09.299
And I just love his performance in this story.

394
00:32:09.359 --> 00:32:09.779
Love it.

395
00:32:10.319 --> 00:32:11.819
He's just so loveable.

396
00:32:12.059 --> 00:32:20.339
Yeah, I think Ian Marta and Harry Sullivan, you know, combined, they, and you know, maybe it's just because these are the 1st episodes I ever saw.

397
00:32:20.400 --> 00:32:29.819
But the 2 companions model, where yes, there is a more senior companion and a more junior companion from the point of view of, you know, leading actors, co-leads, et cetera.

398
00:32:30.480 --> 00:32:35.160
I've always felt has been the perfect combination when you have multi-episode stories like this.

399
00:32:35.339 --> 00:32:37.740
There's space for the 2nd companion sometimes.

400
00:32:37.920 --> 00:32:46.680
Interestingly, I think maybe, yes, I think this is Ian Marr's best story, possibly Tear of the Zygons, I think maybe he's equally strong in that.

401
00:32:46.859 --> 00:32:59.160
Although it's not actually, as you kind of, is implied there, because Harry doesn't necessarily have much to do in this, even though he is very important because he's an important sidekick for the doctor in so much of that 1st half.

402
00:32:59.519 --> 00:33:11.339
The character of Harry has so much more to do in revenge in Ark and Space in Terror of the Zygons, even though you're right, he's made to be a bit of a buffoon in revenge, he has a lot more agency in those stories than perhaps he does in this.

403
00:33:11.579 --> 00:33:13.259
And it's what we're talking about with Genesis.

404
00:33:13.319 --> 00:33:14.039
The stakes are raised.

405
00:33:14.099 --> 00:33:15.119
It's an important story.

406
00:33:15.180 --> 00:33:16.619
And so Harry can't be a buffer.

407
00:33:16.740 --> 00:33:17.099
Exactly.

408
00:33:17.099 --> 00:33:18.599
It's more sober as character.

409
00:33:19.079 --> 00:33:19.859
He's a soldier.

410
00:33:19.980 --> 00:33:23.700
But also, the doctor treats him like a fool in revenge of the cybermen.

411
00:33:23.759 --> 00:33:25.980
There's often Harry Sullivan's an idiot, yes.

412
00:33:26.039 --> 00:33:30.000
Yeah, and there's that moment where the doctor gets his arm trapped in the sliding door.

413
00:33:30.059 --> 00:33:32.339
I think it's in episode one of revenge inside.

414
00:33:32.460 --> 00:33:33.660
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

415
00:33:33.660 --> 00:33:36.299
He pulls out of his... the dirtiest look, yeah.

416
00:33:36.359 --> 00:33:37.680
And he goes, what have I done now?

417
00:33:37.740 --> 00:33:40.140
And it's like, why is that happening?

418
00:33:40.200 --> 00:33:41.279
Why is that moment happening?

419
00:33:41.519 --> 00:33:43.019
But in Genesis?

420
00:33:43.079 --> 00:33:45.720
There's such a strong bond between them, I think.

421
00:33:46.200 --> 00:33:52.440
And look, you know, even Clamgate, where he gets his leg report in the giant clan.

422
00:33:52.619 --> 00:33:56.099
I mean, he's both of them actually, they both bring it to that scene.

423
00:33:56.579 --> 00:34:03.660
There's not a moment where they're not absolutely 100% behind getting Harry's leg out of that giant clam.

424
00:34:04.440 --> 00:34:20.400
At the moment, I think, that really crystallises the dynamic between the doctor and Harry is when Harry holds the landmine steady for the doctor to get his foot off and you just have that lovely moment where the situation's been rescued and Harry's done well.

425
00:34:20.460 --> 00:34:27.119
Tom's looking ahead and he just gives him a side to his glance and smiles and says, thank you, Harry, and keeps smiling.

426
00:34:27.179 --> 00:34:27.599
It's beautiful.

427
00:34:27.840 --> 00:34:28.619
It's just so great.

428
00:34:29.639 --> 00:34:33.000
In watching that, I thought to myself, even a doctor doesn't argue with his doctor.

429
00:34:33.179 --> 00:34:36.059
You know, when Harry says, don't you argue, doctor.

430
00:34:36.300 --> 00:34:43.800
Again, he's not working that dialogue, but it is deadly, deadly serious, but in that, there's, he's, I think, I don't know what the doctor says.

431
00:34:43.860 --> 00:34:46.619
He says, I can feel it moving under my foot or something like that.

432
00:34:46.920 --> 00:34:49.019
Now he says, don't move your foot.

433
00:34:49.079 --> 00:34:50.039
It's just...

434
00:34:50.039 --> 00:34:52.500
Doctor, it hurts when I do this.

435
00:34:53.820 --> 00:34:54.840
Well then don't move it.

436
00:34:55.679 --> 00:34:57.420
Yeah, they're just wonderful together.

437
00:34:57.480 --> 00:34:58.800
All 3 of them are wonderful together.

438
00:34:58.860 --> 00:35:02.460
They're my 2nd favourite Tartist team after the Dr. Jamie and Zoe.

439
00:35:02.519 --> 00:35:02.760
Yeah.

440
00:35:03.179 --> 00:35:07.019
Yeah, I think I think this might be my classic era, favourite group.

441
00:35:07.139 --> 00:35:14.219
I think he has some real steel at the end as well, where he is given the chance, you know, where they're sort of locked up in the bunker and staff at the end.

442
00:35:14.219 --> 00:35:22.079
And there's that wonderful line as well in that scene that we mentioned before, where they're getting the tape out of the out of the safe.

443
00:35:22.679 --> 00:35:26.880
And he says, come on, Nider, you can do better than that, which I just...

444
00:35:27.599 --> 00:35:30.239
And that's a good use of that 2nd companion.

445
00:35:30.480 --> 00:35:34.260
That's just throw in those sorts of lines and, you know, Ian Martin doesn't disappoint.

446
00:35:34.320 --> 00:35:36.300
He doesn't go, oh, I'm only here to say this.

447
00:35:36.360 --> 00:35:39.239
You know, he's completely in every scene he's in.

448
00:35:39.300 --> 00:35:41.940
But he's also used because he is a young man.

449
00:35:42.000 --> 00:35:44.460
He's used his muscle in the story occasionally.

450
00:35:44.519 --> 00:35:52.079
He's overpowering guards and kind of charging down the corridor and, you know, looks quite good, I would say, in that kind of that, um, that car.

451
00:35:52.139 --> 00:35:53.519
But also little things like an amazing.

452
00:35:54.719 --> 00:35:57.539
He is a military man where the doctor's in the incubation room doing it.

453
00:35:57.599 --> 00:36:04.320
He's wiring up the charges at the like the detonator at the other end. you know, focus kind of, I know what I'm doing here, kind of thing.

454
00:36:04.380 --> 00:36:06.300
It's just lovely touches like that.

455
00:36:06.539 --> 00:36:08.340
And he's never an overbearing character.

456
00:36:08.400 --> 00:36:18.539
He might be sort of buffoonishly paternalistic towards Sarah, but there's never a sense that he's ordering her around or trying to assume kind of a paternal role across her.

457
00:36:18.960 --> 00:36:20.460
Well, she wouldn't let him order around.

458
00:36:20.760 --> 00:36:24.480
Well, exactly. that goes to the crocsesera scenes, but he never tries it.

459
00:36:24.840 --> 00:36:30.239
Like, he's not a character who's trying to like keep her in the background or treat her like a feeble woman.

460
00:36:30.300 --> 00:36:31.320
It's all played for laughs.

461
00:36:31.920 --> 00:36:41.460
I mean, sort of later on where he has to try and remember to avoid calling her old thing or whatever, you know, like when she says no, he just go, oh, okay.

462
00:36:41.699 --> 00:36:43.199
You know.

463
00:36:43.320 --> 00:36:45.119
Yeah, yeah, yeah. spit in his eye.

464
00:36:45.239 --> 00:37:06.119
But also that lovely bit of physical comedy where they're looking at the map of the 2 domes and he sort of, he's talking to Guy Sina's character and he just sort of knocks the gun out of Guy Sina's hand and Harry just like, he catches it, but he didn't know it was coming and he just has to very quickly think on his finger, I have to do something with this and become, you know, the guy with the gun.

465
00:37:06.420 --> 00:37:07.260
Military training.

466
00:37:07.320 --> 00:37:08.340
He knows how to handle a gun.

467
00:37:08.519 --> 00:37:09.119
Yeah, exactly.

468
00:37:09.780 --> 00:37:12.059
That was a useful use of rehearsal time.

469
00:37:12.179 --> 00:37:13.500
Yeah, yeah.

470
00:37:13.559 --> 00:37:14.460
The Harry's, the surprise.

471
00:37:14.519 --> 00:37:15.539
Oh my god, you've thrown me down.

472
00:37:15.599 --> 00:37:17.280
Oh my god, I have to cover the other guy who's now on the phone.

473
00:37:17.340 --> 00:37:17.820
You know.

474
00:37:18.000 --> 00:37:24.000
And that marvellous bit where the doctor is wrongfooted by having the time ring taken from him and he says to Harry, it's vital.

475
00:37:24.000 --> 00:37:28.559
And Harry says, yes, I know it's vital, but we don't want them to know.

476
00:37:29.099 --> 00:37:30.420
Yeah, it's really good.

477
00:37:30.420 --> 00:37:31.619
Sing his praises all day long.

478
00:37:31.679 --> 00:37:32.159
Yes, yeah.

479
00:37:32.699 --> 00:37:47.940
And look, you know, you know, this has been said a 1000000 times before, but it is it is such a tragedy that Hinchcliffe removed in Martyr from the series when he did, because I think the character was only just about to reach its full potential with that Tartar team.

480
00:37:48.000 --> 00:37:52.019
And yeah, we lose a great character at the end of Terror of the Zygons.

481
00:37:52.500 --> 00:37:58.079
And to his credit, Hinchcliffe has always said that that was a mistake that he made, he should have kept Ian Marta.

482
00:37:58.199 --> 00:38:00.539
Yeah, it's a wonderful thing, yeah.

483
00:38:01.500 --> 00:38:11.039
I mean, I do think there is something a little sad and lonely about just the doctor and the one other person that he knows and ever gets to talk to travelling together.

484
00:38:11.280 --> 00:38:16.739
I always feel a bit sad about that and towards the end of the classic series where that's all we do.

485
00:38:17.099 --> 00:38:21.599
I kind of just kind of think, you know, why don't Colin and Nicola have no friends?

486
00:38:21.659 --> 00:38:22.679
It's very upsetting.

487
00:38:23.280 --> 00:38:24.420
Why would you want to be around them?

488
00:38:24.480 --> 00:38:26.099
They're always at each other.

489
00:38:27.119 --> 00:38:39.599
I quite like being around them The entire production that is brought to Genesis is on another level.

490
00:38:40.500 --> 00:38:47.340
This story is probably the most repeated Doctor Who story on British mainstream television.

491
00:38:47.400 --> 00:38:52.860
So I'm not talking about sort of satellite repeats from the 90s or something, but repeat it on BBC One and BBC 2.

492
00:38:53.159 --> 00:39:00.539
It was repeated often and way into the future after it was originally broadcast, and that's because it is such a strong production.

493
00:39:00.780 --> 00:39:05.159
It's not a production that invites general public laughter at Doctor Who.

494
00:39:05.340 --> 00:39:10.500
It is solid and elevated and well mounted in virtually every aspect.

495
00:39:10.980 --> 00:39:13.079
You can quibble about something like the clams.

496
00:39:13.139 --> 00:39:18.719
Obviously, we can laugh about that, but that would be like judging the aforementioned caves around Desani on the magma beast.

497
00:39:19.199 --> 00:39:20.340
I actually like the clams.

498
00:39:20.460 --> 00:39:21.900
I mean, I cancer.

499
00:39:23.159 --> 00:39:26.639
The magnet miss is a far greater crime in 1984 claims are in 1978.

500
00:39:27.059 --> 00:39:27.599
I would agree.

501
00:39:27.659 --> 00:39:32.099
But it's a tiny blip in an otherwise exceptionally strong production.

502
00:39:32.219 --> 00:39:47.219
And in fact, Terry Nation knew that because he talked in interviews afterwards where he said they found production values that they hadn't had in ages, which I took from him to mean that it was the best production since his 1st production, the Dalek.

503
00:39:47.460 --> 00:39:49.800
If he's only watching his own stuff, right?

504
00:39:49.860 --> 00:39:56.940
Which is fair enough, it is light years beyond what we've seen in Death to the Daleks and Planet of the Daleks.

505
00:39:57.599 --> 00:40:09.659
And he's absolutely right, that there is a definite uptick in production value when you hit the Hingescliffe years, for whatever reason that is, screwing money out of the right places, scoring people to do better.

506
00:40:09.719 --> 00:40:12.900
I don't know But there is that absolute uptick when you hit Ark in space.

507
00:40:13.199 --> 00:40:24.780
But also what we pointed out before Simon is that everything sits in the hands of the director and Hinchcliffe with a couple of lamentable exceptions, or perhaps just one, got brilliant directors on board.

508
00:40:24.840 --> 00:40:27.960
And so if you get a great director, you get a great production.

509
00:40:28.559 --> 00:40:37.500
Look at David Maloney's productions before the Hitchcliff era, Planet of the Daleks, the Crotons, the War Games, which is actually very good.

510
00:40:37.679 --> 00:40:46.920
But then look at the standard that he achieves working in conjunction with Hinchcliffe, Genesis, Planet of Evil, Deadly Assassin, Talents of Wayne Chiang.

511
00:40:47.460 --> 00:40:50.699
Everything is elevated because you've got this great director in charge.

512
00:40:51.420 --> 00:40:55.320
Just in terms of why this story looks so good, the production values are so high.

513
00:40:55.440 --> 00:40:58.380
It's actually devoid of monsters though, really.

514
00:40:58.440 --> 00:41:00.659
I mean, I think the clam is it, really.

515
00:41:01.320 --> 00:41:10.500
Everything else that exists in the world that's been created in this story is incredibly easy to realise, I think, within the constraints of a BBC television drama.

516
00:41:10.559 --> 00:41:13.019
They're not having to create a giant rat.

517
00:41:13.199 --> 00:41:17.880
They're not having to do, you know, lots of CSO or there's no model spaceships.

518
00:41:17.940 --> 00:41:20.219
So everything is completely credible.

519
00:41:20.280 --> 00:41:28.019
Of course, it absolutely belongs in the world of the story, but it's not taxing the production from a special effects perspective in the way that other stories may do.

520
00:41:28.380 --> 00:41:30.719
So therefore, what they are required to do.

521
00:41:30.840 --> 00:41:32.340
They can do extremely well.

522
00:41:32.699 --> 00:41:34.079
That's why I think it looks so great.

523
00:41:35.039 --> 00:41:47.760
In fact, I think it's really telling that the thing that we've said before that we always wanted to see, which was the Dalek mutant, whatever lives inside the Dalek, and that was always, you know, like a hugely exciting moment where you get to see that happen.

524
00:41:48.000 --> 00:42:01.019
All we get is that reaction shot where we're inside the incubation room looking at them looking into the room, and all that there is is the green light, and then again, just the incredible sounds coming from that room.

525
00:42:01.440 --> 00:42:03.179
But we don't actually see it.

526
00:42:03.360 --> 00:42:04.920
And in the novelisation.

527
00:42:04.980 --> 00:42:15.480
I think the thing that attacks Tom at the end of part 5 is like a shifting pool of some kind of nutrient rather than an actual mutant.

528
00:42:15.539 --> 00:42:16.739
I think might be in the script.

529
00:42:16.980 --> 00:42:17.400
Right.

530
00:42:18.179 --> 00:42:21.539
Because all it is is that sort of snot scarf thing.

531
00:42:22.019 --> 00:42:22.800
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

532
00:42:22.920 --> 00:42:25.019
Again, fairly cheap to realise.

533
00:42:27.840 --> 00:42:30.360
Yeah, I think that's very well realised.

534
00:42:30.420 --> 00:42:33.900
Yeah, because it's just this gunk, which he's clutching to him.

535
00:42:33.960 --> 00:42:37.980
And when Sarah and Harry are pulling it off and it looks like it's attached and some hot.

536
00:42:38.219 --> 00:42:38.940
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

537
00:42:39.000 --> 00:42:40.380
And they're pulling bits off it too.

538
00:42:40.440 --> 00:42:42.780
Like, it's this living thing that they're tearing to pieces.

539
00:42:43.380 --> 00:42:44.039
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

540
00:42:44.219 --> 00:42:54.239
Where I watch the story last night. at a friend's place, there were 2 young boys there, a nine-year-old and 11-year-old, and they walked in and out of the room often, but they were in the room at the moment.

541
00:42:54.300 --> 00:42:59.699
The doctor comes out of the incubation room with this sort of part of the dalek around his neck.

542
00:42:59.880 --> 00:43:04.260
And, you know, those boys, that age, they are your toughest critics.

543
00:43:04.380 --> 00:43:08.820
And they were completely terrified and disgusted by what they saw.

544
00:43:08.940 --> 00:43:10.559
They absolutely loved it.

545
00:43:10.920 --> 00:43:14.460
So, you know, 1975, you can still bring it.

546
00:43:14.519 --> 00:43:17.940
Absolutely, to this generation of young Doctor Who fans.

547
00:43:18.599 --> 00:43:24.780
It's interesting what you said, Corey, about the effects because this story is very light on special effects.

548
00:43:25.079 --> 00:43:25.619
Absolutely.

549
00:43:25.860 --> 00:43:28.260
There's only a tiny bit of model work.

550
00:43:28.320 --> 00:43:37.860
A lot of it's kind of done practically like the, you know, the Dalek sort of moving above the trench that Spacebatan and her cohorts are in.

551
00:43:37.920 --> 00:43:39.780
It's all sort of done on screen.

552
00:43:39.840 --> 00:43:41.880
There's no chroma key that I can think of.

553
00:43:42.239 --> 00:43:44.760
No, there's a lovely cyclorama with lots of lovely lights.

554
00:43:45.480 --> 00:43:48.300
I really like that Cyclorama with a different coloured gel.

555
00:43:48.780 --> 00:44:03.300
I think it looks fantastic and with the Daleks being so dark and so glossy, you know, like they're very dark gray, they're very glossier and then they are across that background and never for a 2nd does it seem like anything other than a BBC studio, but I literally don't care.

556
00:44:03.659 --> 00:44:04.920
I think it looks amazing.

557
00:44:05.579 --> 00:44:10.199
Just on the Daleks, and I did mention last week with Death of the Daleks, the problem is, okay, they're on location.

558
00:44:10.260 --> 00:44:15.480
They're in like a sand pit and it's going to be hard, but the Daleks are in good shape this story.

559
00:44:16.139 --> 00:44:17.639
They are well put together.

560
00:44:17.699 --> 00:44:20.699
Everything glides as you want it to.

561
00:44:20.760 --> 00:44:26.699
And I think that image of the Daleks from that is what they're the Daleks to me because that's the story that was on so often.

562
00:44:26.760 --> 00:44:30.780
And also, they're not taken out on location. not to look that great on location in studio.

563
00:44:30.840 --> 00:44:32.460
You can shoot them properly.

564
00:44:32.639 --> 00:44:33.000
Yeah.

565
00:44:33.000 --> 00:44:34.500
There is one thing.

566
00:44:34.559 --> 00:44:40.139
I mean, I think this is an immaculate production, but there is one thing my fan brain wishes had happened.

567
00:44:40.679 --> 00:44:43.980
Not the kind of fan service that they did in the 1970s.

568
00:44:44.219 --> 00:44:52.320
We might have had to have waited till the 80s or the new series for this, but I wish that the Daleks had looked like they did in the Daleks.

569
00:44:52.920 --> 00:45:04.199
I wish that they had had that early silver with the blue balls on them and the nose slats as just that perfect nod back to the fact that the Daleks looked like that at the start.

570
00:45:04.739 --> 00:45:14.400
Well, that introduces the whole other point, which is the fact that this story completely annihilates Dalek continuity up to this point.

571
00:45:14.460 --> 00:45:17.940
Now, to us of our generation, that didn't matter.

572
00:45:18.360 --> 00:45:27.960
This was Dalek continuity, and I, it's like, it's like the Dalek continuity you get before this is kind of the made-up version as opposed to this.

573
00:45:28.079 --> 00:45:35.699
I mentioned this because I'd never really worried about that and didn't really think it was important because, you know, organised fandom did not exist back in the day.

574
00:45:35.760 --> 00:45:41.280
There was no internet who, no one was chatting to their friends in the playground about how this completely destroyed the history of the darks.

575
00:45:41.460 --> 00:45:53.340
It was only when I saw a post from Tony Howe, an elder Doctor Who fan, even older than we are as fans, he was watching the show right from the beginning on the ABC.

576
00:45:53.340 --> 00:45:56.579
And he just happened to do a post about, I can't remember what it was.

577
00:45:56.639 --> 00:45:58.139
Just mentioning Genesis of the Daleks.

578
00:45:58.199 --> 00:46:01.320
I hate it that people say that Genesis is one of the best stories ever.

579
00:46:01.619 --> 00:46:09.840
They have to remember for some of us, it completely destroyed everything we knew up to that point about the Daleks and I could never forgive it for that.

580
00:46:10.139 --> 00:46:12.059
It's the Jan Vincent Rudsky...

581
00:46:12.840 --> 00:46:14.880
Yeah, exactly. that people would say that.

582
00:46:14.940 --> 00:46:24.059
Now, isn't it just interesting though that, I mean, and that's not the 1st and it's certainly not the last time that Doctor Who chooses to annihilate its own continuity?

583
00:46:24.360 --> 00:46:26.940
Also not the 1st nor the last time that Tony Howe was wrong about something.

584
00:46:27.780 --> 00:46:39.780
No, I'm not saying I agree with him, but I'm just trying to look through his eyes of, you know, he would have been a, I don't know, 15, 16 year old at the time watching Genesis come on or maybe like older, actually. probably was a bit older, actually.

585
00:46:39.960 --> 00:46:50.940
And it's that thing where, you know, and we've all experienced it in different stories, how when you feel that the production team have betrayed you and it's just an interesting observation.

586
00:46:51.539 --> 00:47:06.119
I think what is interesting is in fact what he does with the files here, because the files that he brings back in Planet of the Daleks, whom we hadn't seen after the Daleks, are quite different from the pacifist.

587
00:47:06.900 --> 00:47:07.860
They're still blonde.

588
00:47:07.980 --> 00:47:10.199
Okay, 2 syllable names, not 3 syllable names.

589
00:47:11.039 --> 00:47:13.860
There's a bit of blonde, you know...

590
00:47:14.579 --> 00:47:19.559
There is a little bit of blondness here, but not particularly, you know, not necessarily.

591
00:47:20.340 --> 00:47:22.199
You know, they're all no, they're all they're all blonde.

592
00:47:22.260 --> 00:47:23.039
They're all blonde.

593
00:47:23.159 --> 00:47:23.460
In this?

594
00:47:23.460 --> 00:47:24.420
Yep, they're all blonde.

595
00:47:24.480 --> 00:47:25.739
Sometimes a dirty blonde.

596
00:47:26.400 --> 00:47:31.500
Sometimes they're great, but no, even the old, like the thal leader, you know, you know, as to him, he must be punished.

597
00:47:32.099 --> 00:47:34.860
He is definitely a blonde person who's gone grey.

598
00:47:34.920 --> 00:47:35.639
Who's gone gray?

599
00:47:35.699 --> 00:47:35.880
Okay.

600
00:47:35.940 --> 00:47:36.719
Oh, fair enough.

601
00:47:36.780 --> 00:47:37.320
Fair enough.

602
00:47:37.559 --> 00:47:41.940
But we do lose the idea that they were sort of simple shepherds or whatever like that.

603
00:47:42.840 --> 00:47:43.920
They were the warriors, remember?

604
00:47:44.159 --> 00:47:45.840
Yeah, of course, they were.

605
00:47:46.019 --> 00:47:46.739
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

606
00:47:47.460 --> 00:47:52.500
But that was very definitely set up to make that story work.

607
00:47:52.800 --> 00:47:57.059
And it wasn't anything that we had any particular sort of investment in.

608
00:47:57.480 --> 00:48:04.079
And we did try and tell the story of the creation of the Daleks, didn't we, in the century 21 comics and things a bit later.

609
00:48:04.440 --> 00:48:05.579
Never paid attention to that.

610
00:48:06.119 --> 00:48:06.900
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

611
00:48:07.500 --> 00:48:10.260
So I'm not surprised that they throw it all out.

612
00:48:10.320 --> 00:48:19.320
And I think dialect continuity, such as it was, was kind of destroyed in the Dalek invasion of Earth, essentially.

613
00:48:19.380 --> 00:48:19.920
Oh, exactly.

614
00:48:20.099 --> 00:48:21.360
But not to the same degree.

615
00:48:21.599 --> 00:48:23.099
They're called dolls then.

616
00:48:23.280 --> 00:48:27.059
You know, it wouldn't have been that difficult to have called them dolls in this.

617
00:48:27.119 --> 00:48:30.360
Except that you can't hear the difference between...

618
00:48:30.599 --> 00:48:31.260
No, no.

619
00:48:31.380 --> 00:48:36.480
And that's obviously why they call it tarlets and why because and also it's so beautiful because it's an anagram.

620
00:48:36.539 --> 00:48:37.800
And it's a much better version.

621
00:48:37.860 --> 00:48:39.059
It's like, no, no, I've got a better idea.

622
00:48:39.119 --> 00:48:39.719
Let's call them this.

623
00:48:40.139 --> 00:48:41.460
Well, talking about a better version.

624
00:48:41.519 --> 00:48:42.900
I think that's why it doesn't matter.

625
00:48:43.320 --> 00:48:44.219
Of course it doesn't matter.

626
00:48:44.280 --> 00:48:51.360
I mean, fan preoccupations are all very well, but fans will forgive it if something brilliant comes along that overwrites what happened before.

627
00:48:51.659 --> 00:48:55.920
So no one holds Genesis, the Daleks can say anything because it's Genesis of the dark.

628
00:48:56.280 --> 00:48:57.119
It's amazing.

629
00:48:57.659 --> 00:49:12.480
It's the same reason fans of a certain vintage have a strange relationship with deadly assassin, but most people and most fans do not because it presents time loads in a different fashion, but it's an excellent story in its own right, and so it gets that privilege.

630
00:49:13.079 --> 00:49:19.559
I think something tells me that Hinchcliff and Holmes were not particularly interested in honouring any of that stuff, to be perfectly honest.

631
00:49:20.460 --> 00:49:27.780
Doctor Who was being made very much on their terms and they were not interested in what had really come before to any great extent.

632
00:49:28.079 --> 00:49:29.699
The other thing, I think we have to remember.

633
00:49:30.059 --> 00:49:34.619
I mean, I don't care about all that stuff, quite frankly, because I agree with you, Peter, it's such a bloody good story.

634
00:49:34.739 --> 00:49:35.639
Who cares?

635
00:49:35.940 --> 00:49:43.559
But with over 10000000 people watching the story on average, there's a safe argument to be made that most of those people are not Doctor Who fans.

636
00:49:43.739 --> 00:49:50.039
And so they are not going to sit down on a Saturday night and sit there and go, hang on a minute, this is not what I saw back in 1963.

637
00:49:50.219 --> 00:49:53.820
What is going on or whatever none of that is really going to be part of their thinking?

638
00:49:54.659 --> 00:50:06.780
But it goes back to what we've said often is that, you know, in Britain, apart from the repeat of maybe 2 stories each year or like a 90 minute version of a 6 pass that they'd show close to Christmas, the show wasn't repeated.

639
00:50:06.840 --> 00:50:08.940
It certainly wasn't old ones, certainly weren't repeated.

640
00:50:09.059 --> 00:50:12.780
There was no expectation that people would remember or that people would care.

641
00:50:12.960 --> 00:50:14.699
It's just a whole different mindset.

642
00:50:14.760 --> 00:50:16.619
It's not that they didn't care in a negative way.

643
00:50:16.679 --> 00:50:18.900
It's just, they didn't need to care.

644
00:50:19.260 --> 00:50:23.880
The stories we're talking about, you know, probably weren't even available for overseas sale.

645
00:50:23.940 --> 00:50:28.199
They were probably destroyed or up for destruction by the time this is being made.

646
00:50:28.500 --> 00:50:31.380
The very thought of worrying about that is anathema.

647
00:50:31.440 --> 00:50:35.039
And in fact, I remember in 96 when the telly movie was being made.

648
00:50:35.039 --> 00:50:41.760
And Philip Siegel came across to a Doctor Who convention in a monopticon, I think it was, in the lead up to it.

649
00:50:42.000 --> 00:50:47.340
And he was talking about, oh, how they'd created this Bible of the history of Doctor Who and how everything.

650
00:50:47.940 --> 00:50:48.960
As our hearts sank.

651
00:50:48.960 --> 00:50:52.380
In the hope, in the hope that there was going to be an ongoing series of these things.

652
00:50:52.440 --> 00:50:58.260
And the number of us in that audience, I could actually hear the slight, uh, sigh.

653
00:50:58.320 --> 00:51:06.000
No, that's not how we do things around here and we don't need that and we don't want that because you need to be able to chuck stuff ours because we've got a better idea now.

654
00:51:06.420 --> 00:51:16.380
It's one of the reasons why whenever people talk about rebooting Doctor Who, which I think is meaningless and a terrible idea, you know, absurd time.

655
00:51:16.559 --> 00:51:27.900
But I think it's that instinct is to tidy it up so that all of the Atlantis's and all of the dalek chronology and stuff can all be just done properly for once.

656
00:51:27.960 --> 00:51:29.460
And that isn't what we do here.

657
00:51:30.000 --> 00:51:39.960
And, you know, like, even in the, like, when is the Dalek set, 1000000s of years in the future, 1000000s of years in the past, who can say, like, I've got no idea what's going on.

658
00:51:39.960 --> 00:51:42.780
None of that makes any sense at all.

659
00:51:42.900 --> 00:51:51.960
And there's no reason why we have to assume that the Daleks and the Files have an accurate grasp of their own history. carrying them around on some tablets.

660
00:51:52.199 --> 00:51:52.679
Exactly.

661
00:51:53.519 --> 00:51:54.119
That's right.

662
00:51:54.599 --> 00:51:58.199
So like that can't be a thing that matters at all.

663
00:51:58.260 --> 00:52:04.199
But I do think that it's super interesting that he's created this world where there are no obvious good guys or bad guys.

664
00:52:04.260 --> 00:52:13.920
And in fact, the people who are best, the people with the most moral scruples of the guest cast are all the Khalids who work in the bunker.

665
00:52:14.099 --> 00:52:15.300
Collins who are rebelling against it.

666
00:52:15.300 --> 00:52:16.199
And the Khalid government.

667
00:52:16.860 --> 00:52:17.639
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

668
00:52:17.639 --> 00:52:18.780
Some of the culture government.

669
00:52:18.840 --> 00:52:39.119
So obviously the car, it's strange because it's actually, let's talk about the Carla government for a moment because the whole car-led military are presented as a fascist thing, complete with, you know, Peter Miles's iron cross for a for a short time at the beginning of the story, as mentioned, but the salutes and the way they talk to each other, the black uniforms, it's fascist, fascist, nuts, you know.

670
00:52:39.179 --> 00:52:40.260
I mean, we all know that.

671
00:52:40.559 --> 00:52:49.619
And yet the civilian government or at least those Mogren and these other councillors, friendly councillors, come across as kind of that middle of the road democratically elected kind of thing.

672
00:52:49.980 --> 00:52:52.019
It doesn't kind of tally.

673
00:52:52.079 --> 00:52:54.000
I mean, maybe, you know, the bunker was set up.

674
00:52:54.059 --> 00:52:55.860
We need to research new weapons and so on.

675
00:52:55.920 --> 00:53:01.619
And yet, yes, now the people at the bunk are the elite are effectively the de facto government because they can command the government to do whatever they want.

676
00:53:01.800 --> 00:53:06.780
Davros makes that makes the comments about, you know, the Khalid people have given up much so that we can do this.

677
00:53:06.840 --> 00:53:08.219
They deserve to know what we're doing.

678
00:53:08.460 --> 00:53:13.920
It's almost like all of the efforts have been redirected into this bunker and so they get the best of the best.

679
00:53:14.460 --> 00:53:38.880
But when the bunker wants to throw Davros off, and when it wants to establish some form of government, it's democratic, and it's about a vote, and there's a point, I think, where the doctor thinks that the Daleks are just going to be voted out of existence and he can go home, and it's Davros is the one who comes out against democracy and says that democracy, These are the creeds of cowards. such a brilliant so good.

680
00:53:39.719 --> 00:53:40.380
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

681
00:53:40.380 --> 00:53:44.579
The ones you will listen to a 1000 viewpoints and try to satisfy them all. such an amazing life.

682
00:53:44.699 --> 00:53:45.360
It's brilliant life.

683
00:53:45.539 --> 00:53:48.119
We haven't talked about Davros yet, by the way.

684
00:53:48.840 --> 00:53:49.500
And we should.

685
00:53:49.559 --> 00:53:50.219
He's pretty good.

686
00:53:50.940 --> 00:53:51.840
Michael Wisher.

687
00:53:51.900 --> 00:53:52.380
Yeah.

688
00:53:52.380 --> 00:53:56.340
That performance, again, it goes back to what I was saying. not just what they say. the pauses.

689
00:53:56.460 --> 00:54:01.679
You know, one of those other famous lines that we love, the tiny pressure on my thumb.

690
00:54:01.739 --> 00:54:07.380
The delivery of that, the pause before the word tiny, it all is part of the magic that makes this.

691
00:54:07.739 --> 00:54:13.559
Just say that line that he hits a great line and he absolutely makes it and Tom makes it with his disgusted look.

692
00:54:14.340 --> 00:54:16.679
You are afflicted with a conscience.

693
00:54:17.400 --> 00:54:18.599
Yes, yes, yes.

694
00:54:18.900 --> 00:54:19.679
Just stunning.

695
00:54:19.739 --> 00:54:21.719
But it's the mask is so good.

696
00:54:21.780 --> 00:54:31.019
It fits him so well because it's grotesque without without what we end up with, even at the back end of the classic series, with the Terry Malloy mask, which I feel is going too far.

697
00:54:31.139 --> 00:54:35.940
This is just so much simpler and therefore more elegant and you get more of a sense of an actor talking to.

698
00:54:36.239 --> 00:54:39.000
And the thing that we don't get from any other Davros actor.

699
00:54:39.059 --> 00:54:43.019
I mean, Michael Wisher is head and shoulders, but of anyone else who plays Davros.

700
00:54:43.559 --> 00:54:45.599
Other people who play him get some things right.

701
00:54:45.659 --> 00:54:51.239
Michael Wisher gets everything right and what he especially gets right is Davros' quietness.

702
00:54:51.300 --> 00:54:51.840
Oh, yes.

703
00:54:51.960 --> 00:54:54.719
His menacing, quiet delivery.

704
00:54:55.079 --> 00:55:00.000
I have to say that both Terry Malloy and Julian Bleach do do that quite well.

705
00:55:00.539 --> 00:55:02.460
Like the Davros quietness.

706
00:55:02.519 --> 00:55:03.960
They both managed to do it.

707
00:55:04.320 --> 00:55:05.880
They don't, but they don't do it as well.

708
00:55:06.179 --> 00:55:10.559
And yeah, maybe it's because I heard the LP version. 1000000000 times.

709
00:55:10.679 --> 00:55:12.719
And so his was the voice is the delivery.

710
00:55:12.780 --> 00:55:20.639
But there is that thing, like, you know, again, the Nazi analogy and we know that Terry Nation had a thing about this being an analogy for Nazism and so on.

711
00:55:20.699 --> 00:55:31.019
But remember Hitler would give his speeches and he'd start talking quietly, you know, at the Nuremberg rally and all that stuff and he'd talk quietly and then it'd escalate, escalation, then he'd be shouting at the end.

712
00:55:31.079 --> 00:55:33.059
And that scene we were talking about.

713
00:55:33.119 --> 00:55:35.400
And through the Daleks, I shall have that power.

714
00:55:35.460 --> 00:55:36.179
It's thatty.

715
00:55:36.239 --> 00:55:45.300
It's that, but also it's like when he's talking to Nyda, when he says, you will find the towards end, you will find the rebel leaders, you will surrender to the whatever the lines are.

716
00:55:45.539 --> 00:55:49.500
And then Nider basically says effectively no.

717
00:55:49.800 --> 00:55:50.579
I won't do it.

718
00:55:50.699 --> 00:55:53.639
And then you will obey me and then pause.

719
00:55:53.940 --> 00:55:57.539
You will do as I order and his absolute shout.

720
00:55:57.599 --> 00:56:01.139
It is the change, the turnaround in just a line is just perfect.

721
00:56:01.500 --> 00:56:07.860
But all Michael Wisher has is the dialogue and he has a hand.

722
00:56:08.159 --> 00:56:16.679
I mean, he literally just has a hand. with his, you know, those fabulous nails on that hand and his voice.

723
00:56:16.739 --> 00:56:17.699
That's all he has.

724
00:56:18.119 --> 00:56:26.639
And yet he is able to communicate so much with the gentle tapping of a nail on the top of this. you know, it's so full of danger.

725
00:56:26.880 --> 00:56:29.280
And what the hell is this guy going to do next?

726
00:56:29.340 --> 00:56:30.360
Because we don't know.

727
00:56:30.780 --> 00:56:31.980
We don't know what he's thinking.

728
00:56:32.820 --> 00:56:41.280
And yet there is so much plotting, so much scheming, so much, oh, I don't want to use the word evil because I have a controversial opinion about evil.

729
00:56:41.340 --> 00:56:42.840
I don't think people are born evil.

730
00:56:42.900 --> 00:56:44.159
Now we're going off on a tangent.

731
00:56:44.219 --> 00:56:45.480
I don't think people are born evil.

732
00:56:45.539 --> 00:56:49.860
I think, you know, Peter Griffith, notwithstanding.

733
00:56:51.659 --> 00:56:54.059
I mean, there's so much evil in Dabros.

734
00:56:54.119 --> 00:56:56.219
It's delicious and it's all, I can't believe it.

735
00:56:56.280 --> 00:56:58.139
It's all done through a fingernail.

736
00:56:58.199 --> 00:56:58.860
It's just divine.

737
00:56:59.880 --> 00:57:01.019
He does have a lower lip.

738
00:57:01.260 --> 00:57:01.860
To be fair.

739
00:57:03.059 --> 00:57:04.800
But also just one more line.

740
00:57:04.860 --> 00:57:07.559
I need to highlight the absolute contempt in his voice.

741
00:57:07.559 --> 00:57:12.599
After Garmin delivers the demands and Davros just says, have you finished?

742
00:57:14.099 --> 00:57:15.420
The contempt in that delivery?

743
00:57:15.480 --> 00:57:16.320
But you're absolutely right.

744
00:57:16.380 --> 00:57:33.599
And just a discussion about evil, because that's actually is relevant, if I may say, to this story, and so many of the other better stories, is that you're right, people aren't born evil, and this sense of good and good and evil are choices we make rather than our natures.

745
00:57:33.900 --> 00:57:50.400
And I think what Genesis of the Daleks does, is it communicates to us, how a person, a race might become evil, what are the circumstances that create evil to flourish, arrive, to flourish.

746
00:57:50.699 --> 00:57:52.500
Well, I mean, we see it literally happening.

747
00:57:52.559 --> 00:57:58.440
There's an argument about what the dialects are going to be and what, you know, what they're going to have.

748
00:57:58.500 --> 00:58:14.099
And that wonderful thing about the word pity, which is brought up at the beginning and then becomes Davros's downfall, he dies simply because he hasn't allowed the word pity to penetrate the Daleks vocabulary bank.

749
00:58:16.980 --> 00:58:18.119
Say that again.

750
00:58:18.840 --> 00:58:19.980
He is a bit dicky.

751
00:58:22.980 --> 00:58:30.659
But I think that that's exactly what's happening here because we have a conversation over what the Daleks are going to be and how are we going to imagine them?

752
00:58:30.719 --> 00:58:31.739
What are they going to be here for?

753
00:58:31.800 --> 00:58:38.460
There's that incredible moment where Tom suggests where the doctor says, why don't you make them a force for good?

754
00:58:38.519 --> 00:58:39.659
Have you considered that?

755
00:58:40.739 --> 00:58:41.519
That's incredible.

756
00:58:42.000 --> 00:58:44.340
Yes, be remembered for that. amazing.

757
00:58:44.940 --> 00:58:56.699
You see, that's why I think the story is such great Doctor Who, because it's where Terry's sort of pulp sensibilities and his moral force become indistinguishable from each other.

758
00:58:56.760 --> 00:59:03.300
And don't forget that we've said before, I've said before, Terry made the doctor into the moral figure that we know.

759
00:59:03.300 --> 00:59:09.840
This is the doctor who said when he encounters the Daleks for the 2nd time we'd better pit our wits against them and defeat them.

760
00:59:10.320 --> 00:59:15.900
He's the one who says to Brett Vion in Dalek's master plan, just you remember, young man, I'm not going to kill anyone.

761
00:59:16.320 --> 00:59:18.539
Like so he's always setting out his store.

762
00:59:18.599 --> 00:59:28.619
And I think Terry having made the doctor into that moral figure allows him to oppose Davros and the wider idea of the conception of the Daleks with such force.

763
00:59:29.579 --> 00:59:32.400
And of course, Davros is the dark double of the doctor, isn't he?

764
00:59:32.460 --> 00:59:36.420
He's the scientific advisor to a military organisation.

765
00:59:36.719 --> 00:59:37.800
Gather as men of science.

766
00:59:48.659 --> 00:59:52.559
I think we should talk about how brilliant David Maloney's direction is in this story.

767
00:59:52.619 --> 01:00:04.019
I mean, for the most part, it shot in a series of corridors and a big laboratory, and many a director has fallen at the 1st hurdle, trying to make corridors interesting in Doctor Who.

768
01:00:04.260 --> 01:00:10.019
And yet Maloney is in total command of what he's shooting and those corridors.

769
01:00:10.079 --> 01:00:16.500
It's pretty obvious there's only 2 or 3 corridors that he can shoot down in the Khalid dome, those corridors in the bunker.

770
01:00:16.559 --> 01:00:23.699
And yet he manages to give us the sense that the doctor and Sarah and Harry are travelling down different sections of these corridors all the time.

771
01:00:24.300 --> 01:00:27.119
And it's the same when he's in the thaw bunker as well.

772
01:00:27.420 --> 01:00:33.840
And as I say, other directors have succeeded brilliantly in making corridors look really uninteresting.

773
01:00:34.440 --> 01:00:38.460
But Maloney just does a superlative job in really telling a story with very little.

774
01:00:39.000 --> 01:00:47.159
And Corey, like all great directors, he turns the limitations into a virtue, where okay, you can't see the dialects travelling a long way down a corridor.

775
01:00:47.219 --> 01:00:52.320
So what you get 1st is their shadow falling on the wall before they come around the corner.

776
01:00:52.679 --> 01:00:59.760
That use of that silhouette where you can see the kind of that those horizontal lines, which I think we get, we then see again in the 5 doctors, I think.

777
01:01:00.059 --> 01:01:01.679
Okay, that same silhouetto rise.

778
01:01:01.860 --> 01:01:03.300
It's such, it's such a great thing.

779
01:01:03.420 --> 01:01:11.280
I don't know whether we've seen that silhouette before, that shadow, but also with, you know, I mean, someone like Graham Harper comes along Asia and he's very showy.

780
01:01:11.340 --> 01:01:16.559
There's lots of wonderful, impressive shots, cinematic almost, in terms of with their ambition.

781
01:01:17.280 --> 01:01:30.300
David Maloney is using the multicamera studio environment with simple things like tracking rather than just zooming or just having static shots, just even that thing where the doctor is tied to the thing at the beginning of the interrogation, you know, why did you come here?

782
01:01:30.360 --> 01:01:33.119
says Davros. and he says, to stop the development of the Daleks.

783
01:01:33.179 --> 01:01:35.219
And you just get this beautiful track.

784
01:01:35.280 --> 01:01:39.599
It's a track, not a zoom, meaning the camera itself is moving towards Tom.

785
01:01:39.780 --> 01:01:46.139
And when you move the camera rather than just zooming, it just adds a whole lot of extra dimension to it.

786
01:01:46.380 --> 01:01:52.679
Well, we were talking about episode one with Nider's entrance when the camera crabs back with Nider as he walks down the corridor.

787
01:01:52.800 --> 01:02:01.380
But the less showy shot, which also works really brilliantly, is when the doctor and Harry are running towards the lift and the camera is moving down the corridor with them.

788
01:02:01.440 --> 01:02:04.679
It gives a real sense of depth and place.

789
01:02:04.739 --> 01:02:05.099
Yes.

790
01:02:06.059 --> 01:02:13.079
And of course, David Maloney has the gift of what another thing that Terry does brilliantly, which is the set piece.

791
01:02:13.139 --> 01:02:20.760
And so this story has 3 or four extremely well remembered scenes because they are so well done.

792
01:02:21.059 --> 01:02:35.159
You just put your finger on one, Simon, which is the one where Davros is interrogating the doctor and Sarah and Harry are tied up and being tortured, which is, you know, it's an awful scene when you think about it, the companions actually being tortured, and yet it's so well done.

793
01:02:35.699 --> 01:02:53.219
It's well shot, it's well played, and it's a very powerful scene, and it's 2 people sat there talking to each other, and it goes from the interrogation, segues into another brilliant scene, which is the doctor challenging Davros, about if you had a virus in your laboratory, would you release it?

794
01:02:53.699 --> 01:02:57.900
Those set pieces happen throughout the story, and they are a gift for a director.

795
01:02:58.500 --> 01:03:04.019
What about that incredible set piece where Sarah leads the breakout?

796
01:03:05.519 --> 01:03:07.440
Yeah, in the miss our silo.

797
01:03:07.500 --> 01:03:09.659
And I don't quite know how this works.

798
01:03:10.079 --> 01:03:13.980
Is this set set up twice in 2 different places?

799
01:03:14.219 --> 01:03:18.719
Yes, so there's a little bit of it, which is in the studio, but most of it's done at Ealing.

800
01:03:18.780 --> 01:03:26.880
Yeah, but there is a fair amount of, like, because we do see shots up the rocket and when the rocket actually moves and stuff.

801
01:03:26.940 --> 01:03:31.679
So it does seem to be quite high in the videotape studio in the television centre as well.

802
01:03:32.219 --> 01:03:41.099
But the scene, because there's a wonderful moment where they are clambering up that scaffolding and the camera is just moving up with them is keeping up with them.

803
01:03:41.219 --> 01:03:42.059
That's all.

804
01:03:42.239 --> 01:03:46.619
Yeah, yeah. when suddenly it's on film. and it just looks spectacular.

805
01:03:46.739 --> 01:03:49.980
Like that's an amazing action sequence.

806
01:03:50.039 --> 01:04:01.380
And again, I think it's darker than I normally like my Doctor Who, and particularly the sort of dangling her off the thing and that... incredible line, isn't it?

807
01:04:01.440 --> 01:04:04.320
Where, you know, I think some people say you're not dead.

808
01:04:04.860 --> 01:04:06.539
No, you did before you hit the ground.

809
01:04:06.780 --> 01:04:08.280
I don't believe that, do you?

810
01:04:08.519 --> 01:04:10.800
Which is so, so brutal.

811
01:04:12.480 --> 01:04:17.340
But that scene is just beautifully shot. like an incredible action sequence.

812
01:04:18.239 --> 01:04:20.159
I think, but the key word here is coverage.

813
01:04:20.519 --> 01:04:27.840
Maloney is able to get the coverage he needs to tell the story and give the scene, the pace and the stakes that it needs.

814
01:04:27.960 --> 01:04:29.940
So if we go back to the interrogation scene.

815
01:04:30.719 --> 01:04:33.300
A lesser director would do all of that in wide shot.

816
01:04:33.360 --> 01:04:39.840
You have Davros over on one side, the doctor in the middle and Sarah and Harry sort of tied up on the other side and there's your shot.

817
01:04:40.139 --> 01:04:46.260
But he intercuts between Davros, the doctor, the companions, the tape, Davros, the tape, you know, so on and so forth.

818
01:04:46.679 --> 01:04:48.539
And so that creates the tension.

819
01:04:48.599 --> 01:04:57.780
But if we go to the scene where they're climbing to the top of the rocket, I mean, that would have taken quite a while to shoot because we're talking film, it's single camera.

820
01:04:57.840 --> 01:05:00.360
So he's got to get every single shot from every different angle.

821
01:05:00.420 --> 01:05:02.579
He's got to get that crane going up at the right pace.

822
01:05:02.639 --> 01:05:06.420
He's got to get the actors going up at the right pace to meet the travel of the camera.

823
01:05:06.840 --> 01:05:14.219
He's going in for close-ups when that Khaled guard tries to help Sarah climb and he gets shot.

824
01:05:14.579 --> 01:05:18.480
And then you cut to him hitting the deck and his eyes are open as he hits the deck.

825
01:05:18.960 --> 01:05:19.500
Oh, good.

826
01:05:19.500 --> 01:05:22.079
It's gruesome. know, the coverage he gets.

827
01:05:22.559 --> 01:05:36.840
And, you know, we're talking limited time. got available to him to shoot these things and he's absolute, like a canfield, obviously, he's absolutely maximising the amount of time he's got at his disposal and getting the coverage he needs so that he can tell the story that we see on screen.

828
01:05:36.900 --> 01:05:38.159
It's great, great direction.

829
01:05:39.179 --> 01:05:46.380
And one of the things he does in that interrogation scene is he opens it with a big wide pan across all of the characters.

830
01:05:46.440 --> 01:05:52.260
So you capture Sarah and Harry tied to the table and Nyda and Davros and then the doctor.

831
01:05:52.320 --> 01:05:56.880
You know where everyone is placed in the scene and then he can move his cameras in and get tighter.

832
01:05:57.420 --> 01:06:05.760
Can I just say, I would have loved if the doctor in that scene had recounted all of the adventures that we've seen on screen.

833
01:06:05.820 --> 01:06:10.019
So he's talking about, you know, the Dalek invasion of Earth in the 21st century, all of that.

834
01:06:10.079 --> 01:06:10.739
In 2000.

835
01:06:10.739 --> 01:06:13.079
Never mind.

836
01:06:14.519 --> 01:06:25.139
I would also love him to say something like the Dalek attempt to capture us on the planetoridius in the space year 1965 was spoiled by me jumping up from behind a sand.

837
01:06:25.139 --> 01:06:27.480
Yoo-hoo, auntie.

838
01:06:30.300 --> 01:06:34.079
Encouraging it to glide over Barbara's cardigan into a pair.

839
01:06:34.199 --> 01:06:42.539
Yes, it's no excuse, really, because, you know, the 1st edition of Terrence Dix and Malcolm Hulk's Making of Doctor Who, had adequate synopses of all these stories. which the terror would have made.

840
01:06:42.659 --> 01:06:47.760
No, he's done what he does in the Daleks masterplan. and he said, Earth, Mars, Venus.

841
01:06:47.820 --> 01:06:48.360
We're done.

842
01:06:48.420 --> 01:06:48.900
We're done.

843
01:06:48.900 --> 01:06:51.239
Don't forget the planet.

844
01:06:51.239 --> 01:06:51.960
Hyper off.

845
01:06:53.340 --> 01:06:54.960
Space is 17,000, was it?

846
01:06:55.019 --> 01:07:00.119
Maybe Tom could have just pulled out a copy of the making of Doctor Who and slipped it across the counter to Gabros.

847
01:07:00.420 --> 01:07:02.099
Anyway, read that over a cup of tea.

848
01:07:03.179 --> 01:07:04.440
But is this the 1st time?

849
01:07:04.500 --> 01:07:06.059
I suppose you get it a bit in Inferno.

850
01:07:06.119 --> 01:07:12.599
This is the 1st time where you get a sense that the doctor is trying to, and being asked to change the course of history?

851
01:07:13.139 --> 01:07:23.820
I mean, I think I think there is something really unusual about this because, and Terry Nation hasn't been interested in this and when he was sort of a going concern in the early 60s, this was not what the show did at all.

852
01:07:24.000 --> 01:07:27.059
But we're going back in time to change established history.

853
01:07:27.119 --> 01:07:47.099
And that makes the doctor dangerous and it makes, you know, that that idea, that 2nd only to the time ring is that tape, because that tape is going to make things worse, that in fact, the doctor is going back in time and is catastrophically failing in his mission, because he's going to make them more powerful than they ever were.

854
01:07:47.280 --> 01:07:52.559
You know, they very quickly accept that the doctors from the future, which good, you know, that's fine.

855
01:07:52.619 --> 01:07:53.639
Yeah, let's just get past them.

856
01:07:53.699 --> 01:07:54.239
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

857
01:07:54.300 --> 01:07:54.840
Tedium.

858
01:07:54.900 --> 01:07:57.360
But that becomes a huge thing from another world.

859
01:07:58.079 --> 01:08:04.679
No, but I love the way, but I love the way Davros says it is beyond my scientific comprehension, but it is not beyond my imagination.

860
01:08:05.400 --> 01:08:07.079
That's a wonderful way of expressing it.

861
01:08:07.860 --> 01:08:10.559
And you know, it goes back to what we're saying about the stakes of this story.

862
01:08:10.619 --> 01:08:21.180
The doctor can go back and change history and the story because it's important and the Daleks are a mythical force and they're very important to the Doctor Who universe and they're very legend.

863
01:08:21.239 --> 01:08:25.020
And it's the fact that the time lords are sending him to do this.

864
01:08:25.079 --> 01:08:27.359
It all adds up to what an important story this is.

865
01:08:27.720 --> 01:08:34.199
Not just quality wise, not just the fact that we love the story because it's so well done, but it's very important in the Doctor Who firmament.

866
01:08:34.500 --> 01:08:34.920
Yeah.

867
01:08:34.920 --> 01:08:48.960
And, you know, that becomes inherent to the premise of the show by the new series where there has been a time war between the time lords and the daleks that's happened offscreen while we were all busy reading new adventures.

868
01:08:50.340 --> 01:08:52.859
So like it is, it is hugely important.

869
01:08:57.300 --> 01:09:08.520
We touched on, but we need to talk more about the overall morality here, about the morality of the doctor committing genocide, regardless of who and what the Daleks are of saying, I'm actually going to destroy them forever.

870
01:09:08.579 --> 01:09:12.539
They will never exist as we know. those brilliant scenes.

871
01:09:12.960 --> 01:09:17.640
Another one of the brilliant scenes that's used been used in clips packages ever since.

872
01:09:18.239 --> 01:09:34.739
But it's one of the things that struck me as a child and centred my morality about the way things are and and it actually ends, even though he fails to prevent the development of the Daleks and okay, he slows them down by about a 1000 years is all that happens.

873
01:09:35.220 --> 01:09:47.399
This concept, this optimism that this program ends on, which is, it's just given in that speech about some things might be better with the Daleks, future worlds will become allies.

874
01:09:47.460 --> 01:09:52.739
It's an interesting point of view for that part of history.

875
01:09:52.739 --> 01:10:04.560
When everyone involved with the show's creation has a living memory of the 2nd World War and the horrors that people face 1000000s of people, the entire race of people was tried to be annihilated.

876
01:10:04.920 --> 01:10:09.359
But something... debts and displacement and years of trauma.

877
01:10:09.420 --> 01:10:11.279
But something good came of it.

878
01:10:11.939 --> 01:10:15.539
Yes, the world order, which was set up after the Second World War is now coming apart.

879
01:10:15.659 --> 01:10:23.340
But for the rest of the 20th century and into the 21st, it changed the world.

880
01:10:23.340 --> 01:10:30.659
And it's that thing of, you know, to have good, we have to have evil and to have people doing good things there responding to the evil.

881
01:10:30.659 --> 01:10:34.380
And as well as that thing of, you know, evil things only happen because good people do nothing.

882
01:10:34.619 --> 01:10:37.079
There is that morality which underpins this as well.

883
01:10:37.140 --> 01:10:43.260
And that optimism that no matter how bad things get, there is still light at the end of the tunnel.

884
01:10:43.500 --> 01:10:52.560
And the fact that even if you have an evil situation, you will have good people inside of it. like when you have Ronson, where he's, you know, he's on board with Dr. Ross Stewart.

885
01:10:52.619 --> 01:10:53.939
He reveres Davos.

886
01:10:54.000 --> 01:10:58.140
He, you know, he calls him a brilliant person. scientist. our greatest scientist.

887
01:10:58.199 --> 01:10:58.500
Yes.

888
01:10:58.619 --> 01:11:02.220
But then he's the one who cracks and says, but you know, it's being perverted.

889
01:11:02.279 --> 01:11:06.899
It's turning to evil and he can't, he can't, in all good conscience, move forward with it.

890
01:11:06.960 --> 01:11:07.920
And Garmin, the same.

891
01:11:07.979 --> 01:11:09.359
They all reach their own in carnival.

892
01:11:09.479 --> 01:11:11.880
They all reach their own conclusions that, no, no, no.

893
01:11:11.939 --> 01:11:16.380
We started in the right direction, but something has gone wrong and good men are in that group.

894
01:11:16.739 --> 01:11:18.000
Can I just save Garmin?

895
01:11:18.119 --> 01:11:18.960
was stupid.

896
01:11:19.439 --> 01:11:21.180
A stupid waste of life.

897
01:11:21.659 --> 01:11:27.000
Our intention has always been to have a bloodless revolution, had enough of killing and violence.

898
01:11:28.380 --> 01:11:30.479
Not one of the most...

899
01:11:30.659 --> 01:11:33.359
I think we've got the pronunciation of his name incorrect.

900
01:11:33.420 --> 01:11:35.640
I do believe it is Garman actually.

901
01:11:36.420 --> 01:11:37.380
It is correct.

902
01:11:37.500 --> 01:11:38.579
You are quite correct.

903
01:11:38.819 --> 01:11:40.020
We all stand corrected.

904
01:11:40.680 --> 01:11:45.000
So I have to say that I think we do fudge the morality hero. little bit.

905
01:11:45.479 --> 01:11:49.920
Because we can't have the doctor succeed because we need the Daleks to be in future stories.

906
01:11:50.340 --> 01:11:57.239
And so we want to try and at this point in the show, we can't have the doctor lose outright.

907
01:11:57.239 --> 01:12:03.899
And so he snatches a kind of victory from the jaws of defeat here with that speech at the end.

908
01:12:03.960 --> 01:12:23.340
I do wonder about how to take that scene where he has the 2 wires because, like, when we say genocide, it's just the contents of this room, it's like charging the doctor with genocide for killing, like, 6 vervoids or whatever, does seem a little bit excessive.

909
01:12:23.699 --> 01:12:28.560
And obviously, generally speaking, I don't want the doctor to be killing people in Doctor Who.

910
01:12:28.619 --> 01:12:31.739
I think, generally speaking, it's better if he doesn't do that.

911
01:12:32.340 --> 01:12:35.640
But I mean, these are sort of whatever they are in jars and stuff.

912
01:12:36.180 --> 01:12:43.739
And it just strikes me that in that scene, you've got Sarah, who has had the advantage of having met the Daleks, which works really well.

913
01:12:43.739 --> 01:12:49.319
And ordinarily in a scene like that, Sarah would be right and the doctor would be wrong, don't you think?

914
01:12:49.739 --> 01:12:52.560
Generally that's the way that Doctor Who tends to work.

915
01:12:53.279 --> 01:12:55.020
The doctor usually writes in Sarah as well.

916
01:12:55.319 --> 01:12:58.079
Well, generally the companion humanising the doctor.

917
01:12:58.140 --> 01:12:59.399
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

918
01:12:59.460 --> 01:13:01.619
But nevertheless, it still works that way.

919
01:13:02.220 --> 01:13:05.939
I just because you can see her kind of wanting to do it.

920
01:13:06.000 --> 01:13:07.020
Snatch those.

921
01:13:07.020 --> 01:13:09.600
Yeah, she's there kind of barely containing herself.

922
01:13:09.899 --> 01:13:10.680
She makes great points.

923
01:13:10.920 --> 01:13:13.319
If it was a disease, you wouldn't hesitate.

924
01:13:13.560 --> 01:13:14.579
Why is this different?

925
01:13:14.640 --> 01:13:16.380
You know, this is what you were sent here to do.

926
01:13:16.859 --> 01:13:17.460
It's great.

927
01:13:17.579 --> 01:13:18.539
It's just amazing.

928
01:13:18.840 --> 01:13:26.819
I really love the fact that the story returns to that as its final beat, like you said, Nathan, in the final speech, where the doctor reiterates that, yes, you know, we didn't succeed.

929
01:13:26.939 --> 01:13:32.340
We only delayed them by a 1000 years, which Sarah gives a great, oh, only a 1000 expression too.

930
01:13:32.760 --> 01:13:36.840
But he says, you know, out of all of their evil must come something good.

931
01:13:37.380 --> 01:13:39.899
That's a brilliant way to end the story.

932
01:13:39.960 --> 01:13:44.220
And it leaves you with optimism that the doctor will win the wider battle.

933
01:13:44.279 --> 01:13:46.439
You know, the Daleks are not going to take over the universe.

934
01:13:46.500 --> 01:13:47.699
It's all going to fall to bits.

935
01:13:47.880 --> 01:13:54.840
But the great thing is, it opens up the fact that you can have a story because we know that Daleks have to be invented and they have to go on and so on and so on.

936
01:13:54.899 --> 01:13:57.779
So it gives us an opportunity to have a story where the doctor does lose.

937
01:13:58.199 --> 01:14:04.979
And I think that's one of the other reasons I've always loved this story, is that, you know, he doesn't destroy the Daleks because he can't.

938
01:14:05.340 --> 01:14:16.619
And therefore it gives it a different feeling than anything else, even regeneration stories, where the doctor dies, quote unquote, does not have the same, Oh god, what have we actually achieved?

939
01:14:17.699 --> 01:14:23.100
The great thing about what he says where he says, I've only really been able to delay them by about a 1000 years.

940
01:14:23.159 --> 01:14:48.600
If you think about the experience that Terry Nation and obviously, or everyone who worked on, or most of the people who worked on the story have had in terms of the end of World War II and the supposed crushing of extreme far right fascist ideologies in favour of a new world order, We now find ourselves in a place where those things are coming very much back into the world that we're living in.

941
01:14:48.600 --> 01:14:58.500
And you can feel that that sort of ideology, and that way of thinking, pressing down on this new world order that we have enjoyed for sort of 50, 60 years.

942
01:14:58.800 --> 01:15:06.960
So the story is absolutely speaking to the world that we live in now and the pressures that the global order is currently facing.

943
01:15:07.260 --> 01:15:12.899
And that's got a lot to do with the lack of living memory of that last major conflict.

944
01:15:13.560 --> 01:15:20.819
That's one of the reasons we're in this situation is because our society has allowed ourselves to forget the Second World War.

945
01:15:21.119 --> 01:15:34.920
Certain parts of it have allowed themselves to question some of the things that happened during that war and the reasons why the war happened and the shadow of the 2nd World War stretches throughout the rest of the 20th century.

946
01:15:35.159 --> 01:15:41.819
And it's so unfortunate that except for those people who care to find out about it, it's vanishing.

947
01:15:42.239 --> 01:15:43.560
Which brings us back to Terry.

948
01:15:43.619 --> 01:15:49.619
One of his great preoccupations is the pressures on civilisations of where they end up and how they end up.

949
01:15:50.159 --> 01:15:55.199
And so this is his timeless argument in one package.

950
01:15:55.439 --> 01:16:05.039
And I think when people treat Genesis of the Daleks as an exception, it should be treated as an exception because of its quality and because of what it brings to the show.

951
01:16:05.520 --> 01:16:10.500
They tend to treat it as an exception to Terry Nation as well, to deny his authorship.

952
01:16:10.619 --> 01:16:12.420
And I think we cannot do that.

953
01:16:12.420 --> 01:16:14.699
This is terri nation.

954
01:16:14.880 --> 01:16:23.340
No one else would have written this story, and no one else would have been able to employ his moral arguments to have the resonance that the story still has now.

955
01:16:23.819 --> 01:16:24.239
Yeah.

956
01:16:24.960 --> 01:16:29.399
It's often said that success has many fathers, but failure is an orphan, right?

957
01:16:29.579 --> 01:16:45.060
And but success does have many fathers, and in this instance, yes, I entirely agree with you, this story cannot exist without terrination and his obsessions, his interests, the way he tells stories, but all of it is elevated, the moment he hands that script over.

958
01:16:45.899 --> 01:16:54.359
It's all elevated by everybody, everybody that touches it from that and that is what makes it so great.

959
01:17:19.979 --> 01:17:22.020
Well, that's all the time we have for this wave.

960
01:17:22.079 --> 01:17:22.979
We'll be back next week.

961
01:17:22.979 --> 01:17:27.119
Give the Daleks a week off in the android invasion.

962
01:17:28.500 --> 01:17:47.039
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts and you can keep up with us on our website, 500yeardiary.com, where you'll find our social media links, as well as links to all of our other podcasts, including the entirety of flights or entirety, which comprises every episode of our 4 Doctor Who podcasts.

963
01:17:48.300 --> 01:17:53.939
Until next time, if you happen to run into Yar Velling, maybe remember to give him a hug for us.

964
01:17:54.960 --> 01:17:57.180
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

965
01:17:57.600 --> 01:17:58.140
Good night.

966
01:17:58.560 --> 01:17:59.100
Good night.

967
01:17:59.579 --> 01:17:59.880
20.

968
01:18:01.079 --> 01:18:01.680
What's 20.

969
01:18:04.020 --> 01:18:09.000
It's like, it's after arranged 20 of the Dalek creatures to be put to the Dalek machines.

970
01:18:22.199 --> 01:18:27.899
That was 500 year diary, starring Nathan Bottomley, Peter Griffiths, Corey McMahon and Simon Moore.

971
01:18:27.960 --> 01:18:30.359
The theme was composed by Cameron Lamb.

972
01:18:30.600 --> 01:18:37.859
This episode, Nazi paraphernalia, was recorded on the 19th of July 2026 and released on the 11th of October.

973
01:18:43.920 --> 01:18:46.140
So the moral of this week's episode is this.

974
01:18:46.560 --> 01:18:55.500
If a timelord asks you to go back in time to bury a bunch of fashists in a bunker deep underground, the correct answer is yes, sir.

975
01:19:06.840 --> 01:19:07.800
What do you reckon?

976
01:19:08.340 --> 01:19:08.880
Absolutely.

977
01:19:08.939 --> 01:19:09.539
That's good.

978
01:19:09.840 --> 01:19:11.460
Yeah, thank you. was pretty great.

979
01:19:12.300 --> 01:19:12.840
Cool.

980
01:19:13.020 --> 01:19:14.100
Yeah, that was awesome.

981
01:19:14.159 --> 01:19:14.520
What fun.

982
01:19:15.420 --> 01:19:18.060
I'm feeling a bit unpodcasted lately.

983
01:19:19.140 --> 01:19:23.279
Well, because I've been doing this, but Joe and I have had a few weeks off because I had to...

984
01:19:23.279 --> 01:19:24.180
Oh, you've been without?

985
01:19:24.239 --> 01:19:25.680
Oh, yeah. over it.

986
01:19:25.680 --> 01:19:28.380
Yeah.

987
01:19:28.439 --> 01:19:34.920
Well, you know, like we're about to do Muds Women on very sexist episode.

988
01:19:34.979 --> 01:19:35.819
Classic Star Trek.

989
01:19:35.880 --> 01:19:36.899
Yeah, classic Star Trek.

990
01:19:37.800 --> 01:19:38.760
Which would be terrible.

991
01:19:38.819 --> 01:19:39.840
But, yeah.

992
01:19:40.319 --> 01:19:41.340
Just going back to the care thing.

993
01:19:41.399 --> 01:19:42.300
I mean, this is not for the thing.

994
01:19:42.359 --> 01:19:51.960
But the care thing that I've often talk about, things like within the clam, where Harry takes, when he Carrie's foot gets out of the clam, it's all wet and mucky and so on like that.

995
01:19:52.079 --> 01:19:55.500
Now, in a different production, it doesn't look any different.

996
01:19:55.560 --> 01:19:56.819
It just looks a little bit crinkled.

997
01:19:56.880 --> 01:19:57.600
Do you know what I mean?

998
01:19:57.720 --> 01:19:58.680
It's those sorts of things.

999
01:19:58.979 --> 01:20:04.199
Do you remember when Turlo fishes Perry out of the water and then gets her into the TARDIS and she's instantly dry?

1000
01:20:04.619 --> 01:20:05.640
Yes, yes, exactly.