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This transcript was created on 2026-10-04 at 14:41:47

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to 500 Year Diary, the only Doctor Who podcast where a bunch of space chums get together to talk about spaceships, space powers and space, you know, hats.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Fiona.

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I'm Peter.

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And I'm Simon.

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It's the 23rd of February, 1974.

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It's been just about 10.5 months since Terry Nation returned to Doctor Who to drop a space expedition onto a 3 syllable planet, and tonight 8.100000 people have tuned in to watch him do it again.

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But what happens when some daleks and some rubbery alien cultists come face to face with some nice people you might meet at a drinks party at Margot Ledbedters?

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Let's find out as we discuss Death to the Dialects.

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I've said this before on the podcast, but on the 20th of June, 1978, iTuned in to watch Death to the Daleks part one on the ABC, and it was the 1st time that I had ever watched Doctor Who.

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I mean, what a story to hook you.

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Yeah, I'm not sure that I would have kept watching after.

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I have to say, though, that so this is Michael E. Bryant, isn't it?

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And the 1st episode, I think, is incredibly atmospheric.

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Like it is really, really good and I do think this is the kind of thing.

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Like, this isn't the Doctor Who that I prefer so much now.

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But I do think it is the perfect Doctor Who for a 10 year old to tune in and watch.

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I mean, I think no matter what you think of the rest of the story, and I happen to think very highly of it, so that is heresy, Fiona, and I'm going to sacrifice you to something in the tunnels.

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Don't get to wear a fancy frog.

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You absolutely can.

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I think episode one is a masterpiece of moodiness.

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I mean, it's really, really well shot on location.

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But as good as episode one is.

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I have a confession to make that, like Nathan, the 1st dog who I saw was season 11 on its 1st run in Australia in 1976 on Friday night.

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Still, I think we had a black and white television.

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But come 1983, Death to Daleks, episode one, is the 1st episode of Dog 2 I willingly missed.

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Oh, wow.

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I know.

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There was a counteroffer because I used to walk to my mother's work from school and so I was 11 in 1983.

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I walked down.

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It was a Thursday night.

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The sites Doctor Who broadcast tells me that it was the 11th of August, 1983, which is amazing.

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And mum said it was Thursday night.

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She said, do you want to get McDonald's and I was looking at the time ticking down and I thought, well, Doctor Who's on, but I do want to get McDonald's.

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And she said, is it one you've seen before?

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And I said, yes, it was one I had seen by that point 3 times before. 1976, 78, and 79.

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So we went to McDonald's.

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I got my happy meal and we sat there and I watched the time ticked down past 6.30 with this incredible sinking feeling of what have I done?

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Peter, that admission can only bring you incredible shame.

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I'm sorry, because the very important word that you were missing out there was the word only.

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Three times.

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You may have seen it 3 times, but basically 3 times is not enough to sacrifice it for a McDonald's happy meal of all things.

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I think you're going to say something like it was a Blake 7 event. decided to miss it four.

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What is all this talk of sacrifice, I'm hearing.

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Anyway, look, my 1st experience with the story is actually the 1st episode that you elected to not watch because I came in at the very end of the previous pert we run in 1979.

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So my 1st story was playing on the spiders, which I've mentioned before.

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So this was my 1st chance to see it. when you were willingly missing it.

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And it was just another, I mean, it was just another pertly story for me by that point.

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I wasn't looking forward to it.

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I didn't have any kind of hype around it from what I'd read.

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Don't think I might have read the novelisation, but then I don't know.

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But yes, it was just another Doctor Who story.

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But yes, I mean, the 1st episode is very atmospheric.

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A lot of, so much of the good part of the story, and there are many bad things which I'll come to later, but so much of the good is not just the music, but the soundscape.

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Yeah, yeah.

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So often they go together and so often those saxophones are used by Kerry Blyton to communicate atmosphere and especially in the bleaker moments and more frightening moments of that 1st episode where, for instance, Sarah is beating the excellon over the head with the crank thing that's opened the TARDIS door.

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It's a terrible thing to say about John Purwin.

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It's actually quite awful.

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And actually, I wonder whether such a sequence would be allowed to be made today.

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That soundscape is incredible because those weird kind of echoing sounds that you get on the landscape of Excelon at night.

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And it sounds like sort of water drips in the background and it's very, very evocative.

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The entire episode, I think, is a masterpiece of Doctor Who Inis.

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I found the most striking sound thing in that 1st episode is the Tartar set without the hum, but with additional reverb as well.

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So it seems really empty and you've got Sarah saying that it's dead and things and it's surprising.

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It's 6 and 11 and it's never occurred to us to do this before.

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And it's really striking.

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I was kind of thinking, Doctor Who tries not to be too dark because it's basically on a small screen in the corner of a well lit room, probably.

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And so it needs to read like there's something on the screen.

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Oh, you mean like visually dark as opposed to metaphorically.

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No, no, no, just visually dark.

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And they do do an incredible job of turning the lights off.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Yeah.

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I mean, that is really striking and and, you know, that's my 1st experience of the TARD, so it wasn't sort of as surprising. or a tick.

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Yeah, amazing stuff.

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And I'm tuning in, of course, because the Daleks are here.

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And my 1st introduction to Doctor Who had been the Doctor Who Monster book, the 2nd edition, so I had seen the dialects in that, and then my friend, Luke, said the Daleks are on tonight.

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You should tune in.

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Wow, so you actually knew about the show and the Daleks and it was because of a book that you watched this for the 1st time as opposed to discovering it because you happened to have the television on.

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Yeah.

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Also, it's amazing that you'd read about Genesis of the Dialects before you saw Death to Alex, and so you were chronologically correct.

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Fiona.

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What was your 1st experience of this?

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you remember?

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I remember being actually really quite frightened watching it as a child.

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So I'm not sure when the 1st per we, what was the date that Peter mentioned for the 1st run?

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76, yeah.

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Friday nights.

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So I would have been about 6 and I definitely know that I was watching Doctor Who then because of my junior primary school teacher, she was a Doctor Who fan.

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And yeah, I had the experience because it was in black and white TV that when people started to get colour TV, I had to ask somebody what the colour was of the Tartars when I wanted to draw a picture of the Tartars.

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And when they said blue, I didn't believe them.

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But I remember just being very scared by some of these atmospheric scenes that Peter is alluding to.

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And also just simple things like the flashing light on the top of the Exalon City.

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It seems just such a simple image, but as a child, that was terrifying.

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And, I mean, even the vacuum cleaner monster, which seemed...

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I was just going, this is really bad watching this.

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I watched it at age 6.

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Like, it really was, like, that was really terrifying.

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But the weird thing was that most of that 1st episode scene in the TARDIS.

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I actually was watching going, I actually have no memory of watching this bef previously, and that kind of threw me a little bit because I was kind of expecting it to be like, 0 yeah, def to the Daleks, da, da, da, da.

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And apart from the, like, I definitely remembered this episode one cliffhanger when the Daleks arrive.

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But a lot of that stuff prior, um, and especially that they were going to the beach and everything like that, and Sarah comes out in, uh, my only member of, like, a Sarah at the end of this, uh, Seeds of Doom, um, where she's in the polka dot, bikini, and, um, yeah, there's another sort of um, thing where they have, there was another trip where she was meant to be going to the seaside that didn't happen.

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Um, but yeah, that kind of threw me a bit on the rewatch seeing that I just didn't remember watching this before and obviously I would have.

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Fiona, you wouldn't have had a memory of watching that 1st scene where the member of the scientific team gets shot with an arrow, because of course that was cut from all Australian transmissions.

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And that's more effective, I think, in the normalisation because I think we help ourselves to some more spears and arrows.

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It's a longer scene, a much longer scene.

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I think it starts, he was a dead man running.

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Is it a prologue rather than being chapter one?

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one of those fantastic Terrence Sticks opening line?

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It's funny because it's a prologue.

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And because, of course, we hadn't seen that scene in Australia.

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I just assumed it was one of those scenes that are added into the novelisation.

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Yeah.

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Whereas this, it's very short.

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We do see a bit of Terry Walsh in this and there's terribly obvious when Galloway wrestles the doctor to the ground. very much Terry Walsh as Doctor Who.

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But that sort of Terry Walsh, we only get one arrow.

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I have to say, though, in episode 2 where they're firing arrows at each other quite a lot.

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I am there wondering kind of, that does seem quite dangerous.

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It does seem a little dangerous.

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I mean... sound, again, the sound. that makes you think about it because I'm sure that would have been added, that that's not a sound that you've heard.

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I mean, the other thing, you know, Fiona mentioned how striking and frightening the beacon on the top of the city was, but I think that it's equally the sound that is made by that line.

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That warbling kind of...

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Yeah.

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Which is very evocative.

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Yeah.

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You know, absolutely going back to the sound design again.

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Subtlety is like the arrows whooshing into the sand, the sound of the Excelon city.

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The way sometimes the incidental music, the saxophones almost digestically, sometimes the added reverb, as you mentioned before, Nathan, on the dead Tartars, the added reverb added to the excellence when they're chanting.

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I mean, there's a whole lot of stuff which you lift, what, I'm afraid to say from my point of view, is an otherwise kind of middle of the road story.

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Yeah, it really does lift it.

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And also, I think, um, this could have been quite a straightforward story, but that weird honking incidental score that Kerry Blythe Nads, which is like his music for Dr. and Salurians, and like his music for Revenge of the Sidemen.

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Yes and no. actually adds a level of whimsy to the story, which I think makes it much more Doctor Whoey.

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Now, if we're going here now, everything in this musical score is probably the best he does out of those 3 stories, with the exception of the theme he gives the Daleks, which is somehow suddenly very panto, when you consider how incredibly dark and mature, a lot of the music is in episode one and answer out the story.

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But then as soon as he introduces that Dalek theme, it's like, wow, this is now a bit twee and trite.

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Now, yes, there is music in revenge and there's music in Salurians, which has also got a certain triteness to it, but that kind of Silurians theme, is still better for me than the theme he gives the Daleks.

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And it's an interesting choice because you've got saxophones mixed with percussion as well.

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And it just, like his other scores, is completely different from everything that we get around it.

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And that's the other reason why I think it stands out.

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The only other thing I was going to mention about the arrows and how sort of like you do feel like I'm actually flinching.

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I don't really flinch very much in classic Doctor Who, it must be said, at my advanced age now.

141
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But I, I, Different kind of flint.

142
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But the flinching because of the arrows is unfortunately let down, the fact that they're all cowering in a beautifully rectangularly dug pin, which is fine until we see the shot, which is like, come on, Michael.

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Just think about that.

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You're better than that.

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That's a, we've run out of time, shot.

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That's who we're running.

147
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Oh, please.

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Pet and Robin.

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Let's talk about the Daleks, and then I think we'll move on and talk about Terry Nation more generally.

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I think I may have said in the flight through entirety episode that this is my favourite kind of dialect livery.

151
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And the Daleks themselves.

152
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Are there 3 of them?

153
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There's a bunch of props. 3 in an empty prop, I think.

154
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There's 3 in an empty prob.

155
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Yeah, so what they did was they created six sort of fake props for Planet of the Daleks and they just kind of like sat in the background and got wheeled into water and stuff like this and they called them goondaleks and they put them up the back.

156
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And actually, they work fairly well.

157
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And again, this is slightly a lapse in direction.

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They work fairly well if they're placed in the background.

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You don't really notice them.

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But if they're pushed forward into a scene, and all the other 3 dialects are doing what the Dalek operators do so well, and they're fidgeting, they're moving and the ice stalks are moving around and they're sort of fidgeting on the spot, and then there's this one inert goon sat there and you think, have you gone to sleep?

161
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But why?

162
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I mean, but why?

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That shot where you've got the 4 of them having the little conference after they've just arrived in front of the humans realise they don't have any power.

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So, as you said, those 3 daleks are fidgeting beautifully just as you want them to.

165
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And the 4th one is still.

166
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Again, just have the 3 in that shot because it looks so even when you're an eight-year-old watching this on a tiny screen in the corner of your living room, it looks a bit NAF, surely.

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Yeah, it's a failure of direction, I think, but I do appreciate the fact that we have these goon garlics, which means that they can do things, like set them alight and push them over the edge of the cliffs. into trash it, right?

168
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They do.

169
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And that gives us some of the most striking images of the story with the Daleks in flames.

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Yeah.

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The novelisation cover.

172
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The novelisation cover indeed.

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Although that one's kind of more exploding.

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More impressively than we see on screen.

175
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Funny that.

176
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That's what happened after we cut away from the one in episode four, which said Am exterminated Amic Stone.

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Look, I was reading, and I don't know whether I cannot claim that this is a reliable source, because I merely found it on the internet.

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My impression, having rewatched it, was that I felt the Dalek props were all looking pretty shabby.

179
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But whatever they do for Genesis, they pimp them up because a lot of their slats are on slightly crooked.

180
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The top bits aren't flush and level, sometimes.

181
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Now, admittedly, there's an awful lot of them on a sandy location and I suspect that outside the studio environment, It's harder to get everything working.

182
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They've got less time and so on and so on.

183
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Maybe it's just that.

184
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I do think they just feel shabbier.

185
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And so I don't know whether they were blowing them up and doing the rest of it because they were thinking, well, this is the end of the life of these ones.

186
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Do you know what might have contributed to that?

187
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Michael E. Bryant experimented with rehearse record.

188
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And so they were rehearsing and then recording shots.

189
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On film?

190
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No, in the studio.

191
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And so they were actually, rather than having a big rehearsal period in the afternoon and then filming in the evening in a block.

192
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They did rehearse record throughout the day, which meant that it might have been difficult to have kept the Dalek props in good working order as they were going.

193
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Also, having spoken to Michael Bryant, ding in 1995 in Amsterdam, Simon, you were there.

194
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Oh, wow.

195
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That's right.

196
00:16:41.340 --> 00:16:52.919
He said that he painted them silver because, of course, he'd worked on the Dalek stories in the 1960s as an AFM, and his memory was that the Dalek should be silver, and so he painted them that rather than the gray of Day of the Dialect.

197
00:16:53.700 --> 00:16:58.919
So Day of the Daleks, that livery is the same as the livery in Genesis of the Daleks.

198
00:16:58.980 --> 00:16:59.340
Is that right?

199
00:16:59.940 --> 00:17:01.139
and Planet of the Dialects.

200
00:17:01.200 --> 00:17:01.500
Okay.

201
00:17:01.559 --> 00:17:03.360
I mean, I think it looks really striking.

202
00:17:03.419 --> 00:17:06.720
I do quite like the silver and black.

203
00:17:06.779 --> 00:17:07.619
I think it does look good.

204
00:17:07.920 --> 00:17:11.039
Yes, they look they look different to what you used to.

205
00:17:11.160 --> 00:17:20.039
Like sometimes when you see either the console or the police box prop and even within a series of stories, sometimes you think, oh, God, that hasn't been looked after, well, has it?

206
00:17:20.940 --> 00:17:21.779
assembled very well.

207
00:17:22.259 --> 00:17:24.539
There's a moment where it shudders, I think.

208
00:17:25.259 --> 00:17:31.259
Well, that's indicate that it's arriving like a crash land. right. one of those great sort of idiosyncratic TARDIS landings.

209
00:17:31.319 --> 00:17:36.539
It's like the noise going backwards in spearhead from space or it just popping onto location.

210
00:17:36.539 --> 00:17:36.839
Colony.

211
00:17:36.839 --> 00:17:38.759
It's like relish as a child.

212
00:17:39.720 --> 00:17:43.920
It does look pretty amazing, but it does look very rickety though.

213
00:17:47.279 --> 00:17:49.980
Fiona, do you have anything to say about rickety tardises or Daleks?

214
00:17:50.339 --> 00:18:02.160
Well, I like the way that the Daleks had these little model Tartars that they, that was the printer kind of thing that they could just rustle up all these things to little target practice with the Tartars.

215
00:18:02.220 --> 00:18:05.279
I thought that was that was probably my favourite Darlic moment.

216
00:18:06.839 --> 00:18:08.160
Also, how did they get that?

217
00:18:08.220 --> 00:18:14.460
Because isn't that the same little TARDIS that kind of Orum fishes out of the scope and carnival of monsters?

218
00:18:16.920 --> 00:18:23.279
Like people say that this is a fresh new take on the Daleks, because they are...

219
00:18:23.460 --> 00:18:24.240
Yeah, I know.

220
00:18:24.359 --> 00:18:32.220
It's just like, basically for a scene they can't shoot anyone and then they just get different guns and then they find.

221
00:18:32.880 --> 00:18:33.240
Yeah.

222
00:18:33.240 --> 00:18:33.660
Yeah.

223
00:18:33.839 --> 00:18:37.740
I mean, one might think that if David Whitaker had been handed this premise.

224
00:18:37.799 --> 00:18:41.519
He's more interested in the Daleks as Machiavellian characters.

225
00:18:41.880 --> 00:18:51.839
And I think he possibly would have made more of that scenario rather than being handed that incredible premise of the Daleks have no firepower, and so therefore they have to work with the humans.

226
00:18:52.140 --> 00:18:55.259
And then basically wishing it away in the 1st scene of episode two.

227
00:18:55.440 --> 00:18:56.220
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

228
00:18:56.279 --> 00:19:01.619
Yes, I mean, this story could have been called also Power of the Dalek. secondary power of the Daleks.

229
00:19:02.759 --> 00:19:03.599
Yeah, yeah.

230
00:19:04.259 --> 00:19:08.220
I think it is just a way of getting out of the episode one, Cliffhanger.

231
00:19:08.279 --> 00:19:11.220
It a pretty great cliffhanger where they just come out and gun everyone down.

232
00:19:11.519 --> 00:19:16.619
Although we do get quite an extended close-up of the gun, not doing anything. anything.

233
00:19:16.680 --> 00:19:17.640
But I love that noise.

234
00:19:19.140 --> 00:19:23.160
But I mean, yeah, I mean, obviously, but it's much better than someone coming on and saying, wait.

235
00:19:25.259 --> 00:19:31.259
But, I mean, there is something that doesn't make sense, of course, in, you know, the Daleks themselves.

236
00:19:31.319 --> 00:19:33.539
The machine itself needs power.

237
00:19:33.599 --> 00:19:34.500
It's not just the gun.

238
00:19:34.920 --> 00:19:37.440
With psycho kinetic power, I think you'll find.

239
00:19:37.619 --> 00:19:38.940
I thought it was static electricity.

240
00:19:39.000 --> 00:19:39.900
David Whitaker taught.

241
00:19:39.960 --> 00:19:40.680
Yeah, no, it was.

242
00:19:41.880 --> 00:19:45.059
There is a line of dialogue that kind of just explains that way.

243
00:19:45.119 --> 00:19:46.019
I missed that.

244
00:19:46.079 --> 00:19:48.359
I mean, you know, flossing my teeth.

245
00:19:49.019 --> 00:19:50.279
Simon, you were too engrossed.

246
00:19:51.180 --> 00:19:51.660
Gross.

247
00:19:51.720 --> 00:19:53.039
I was letting the magic wash over.

248
00:19:55.980 --> 00:20:07.140
We have to hand it to Terry because he understands all the potency of all those kind of ancient adventure tropes, like kind of lost civilisations and sacrifices and things like that.

249
00:20:07.259 --> 00:20:13.500
And would you believe this is only the 2nd time in Doctor Who that the doctor and his companions have been threatened with sacrifice.

250
00:20:13.619 --> 00:20:14.099
Really?

251
00:20:14.099 --> 00:20:15.960
Are you saying the demons is the previous one?

252
00:20:16.200 --> 00:20:18.900
No, that's Joe offering herself the sacrifice.

253
00:20:18.960 --> 00:20:20.519
No, she was going to be sacrificed before then.

254
00:20:22.619 --> 00:20:27.480
This is only the 3rd time in Doctor Who. where the doctor and or his companions were offered for sacrifice.

255
00:20:27.539 --> 00:20:33.779
There's Joe and the Demons, and there's also the underwater menace, but I mean, this is kind of an ancient civilisation sacrificing them.

256
00:20:34.019 --> 00:20:41.279
And I think the potency, you know, we've been dulled to the potency of those tropes. they became tropes and they became a bit old hat because they work so well.

257
00:20:41.700 --> 00:20:43.200
They're such great dramatic devices.

258
00:20:43.680 --> 00:20:54.480
I did in our flight through entirety season 18 coverage declare that there was to be a moratorium on sacrificing the doctor and or his companions, but I'd really had enough of it.

259
00:20:56.940 --> 00:20:58.980
Sarah gets a fairly, yeah.

260
00:20:59.039 --> 00:21:00.839
How many times does she get sacrificed?

261
00:21:01.380 --> 00:21:06.299
Well, I was just worried about cleaning up that big rock that was going to fall on Tom Baker.

262
00:21:06.359 --> 00:21:08.700
Like, it was just like, who was going to clean up after that?

263
00:21:09.420 --> 00:21:10.980
Oh, you know, the lessers.

264
00:21:11.880 --> 00:21:16.619
But what you're talking about, Peter, though, is the tropes of like the science fiction theme movie of the 50s.

265
00:21:16.680 --> 00:21:18.779
And I'm not saying that in a majority of way.

266
00:21:18.839 --> 00:21:22.920
That is, as we've kind of touched on before going back to brains in jars.

267
00:21:22.980 --> 00:21:27.420
That's what Terry Nation did with Doctor Who. what he was steeped in growing up.

268
00:21:27.660 --> 00:21:34.019
Yes, it's what he was steeped in, but also it's what he did to Dr. Who, where, you know, Sidney Newman didn't want brains in jars.

269
00:21:34.079 --> 00:21:35.339
He didn't want bug eyed monsters.

270
00:21:35.400 --> 00:21:38.579
Terry Nation basically says, well, we're doing them.

271
00:21:38.759 --> 00:21:39.720
This is what's happening.

272
00:21:39.779 --> 00:21:48.000
And of course, the show's an enormous success, but I still maintain that the show does it differently and better than most of those films did.

273
00:21:48.480 --> 00:21:54.839
We spend a lot of time, I think, on FDA talking about H-Rider, Haggard, as a possible source for this.

274
00:21:54.900 --> 00:21:56.279
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

275
00:21:56.339 --> 00:21:56.640
Yeah.

276
00:21:57.180 --> 00:22:05.759
This is full of Terry's preoccupations and especially, I mean, he's always been utterly focussed on kind of the downfall of civilisation and what that means.

277
00:22:05.819 --> 00:22:11.700
And, you know, obviously in survivors, there's a lot of Blake 7 episodes which are about reverting to primitivism.

278
00:22:11.759 --> 00:22:15.839
I think there might actually be a quote from Blake in Blake 7 reverting to primitivism.

279
00:22:16.140 --> 00:22:17.279
We see it in Doctor Who.

280
00:22:17.339 --> 00:22:21.720
There Scaro, there's obviously like 22nd century earth, even places like Aridius.

281
00:22:21.900 --> 00:22:28.259
And the reason that these things work well is they are terrination tropes and terrination tropes are Doctor Who tropes.

282
00:22:28.500 --> 00:22:31.799
He is the one who creates the series as we know it.

283
00:22:31.859 --> 00:22:37.799
And so we come to think of this as being a generic dog 2 story, whereas actually it's classic Doctor Who story.

284
00:22:38.220 --> 00:22:45.720
Yes, it's not, I wouldn't, I don't want to say, I mean, one of the reasons I was saying that this is a very middle, for me, this is still a very middling Doctor Who story.

285
00:22:46.019 --> 00:22:50.519
It's not necessarily because I feel it's retreading old grounds or it's cliched.

286
00:22:50.579 --> 00:22:54.779
It's just missing a certain magic that I see in top drawer ones.

287
00:22:54.839 --> 00:22:58.200
But you're absolutely right that the way he treats those things.

288
00:22:58.259 --> 00:22:59.819
It's always about the fall of civilisation.

289
00:22:59.880 --> 00:23:00.480
There's decay.

290
00:23:00.539 --> 00:23:03.420
It's a fascination with how's all this going to end.

291
00:23:04.200 --> 00:23:06.359
Certainly by the time he's writing this story.

292
00:23:07.200 --> 00:23:10.079
Less so when he's writing, you know, the early 60s stories.

293
00:23:10.200 --> 00:23:14.279
There is this sense of Britain as the Empire and Decline.

294
00:23:14.700 --> 00:23:17.819
You know, they may have won the war, but they've lost their empire.

295
00:23:18.119 --> 00:23:21.420
You don't really see a reversal of that until Thatcher in the 80s.

296
00:23:21.480 --> 00:23:24.359
I mean, they talk about in the 70s about managing the decline.

297
00:23:24.720 --> 00:23:31.859
It's like what we have sort of now with our fear over AI, is an AI going to turn us on's paper clips kind of thing.

298
00:23:32.160 --> 00:23:34.200
And because that's basically what the excellons have done.

299
00:23:34.259 --> 00:23:38.940
They've become so advanced that they've created something that has then destroyed their civilisation.

300
00:23:39.000 --> 00:23:45.059
Not a war, not a nuclear war this time, but a piece of technology which was supposed to improve their lives has actually destroyed it.

301
00:23:45.119 --> 00:23:48.539
So in that regard, the story is like 50 years ahead of its time.

302
00:23:49.140 --> 00:24:01.019
We have seen very much the same thing, I think, in colony and space, the story of the people of Uxarius creating the doomsday weapon that takes all the life and vitality from their planet.

303
00:24:01.140 --> 00:24:01.920
It's a weapon though.

304
00:24:01.980 --> 00:24:03.960
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

305
00:24:04.019 --> 00:24:04.140
Yeah.

306
00:24:04.140 --> 00:24:06.240
Like a doomsday, it's a doomsday weapon.

307
00:24:06.720 --> 00:24:11.400
And it's really interesting, then, in tandem with that, Simon, that's absolutely correct what you've identified there.

308
00:24:11.819 --> 00:24:16.140
We have the space plague, which is wiping out 100000000 people.

309
00:24:16.319 --> 00:24:27.900
Now, this was written in mid-1973 around then, and survivors, Terry Nations show about a plague wiping out 99% of the world's population. debut in 1975.

310
00:24:28.079 --> 00:24:31.440
So he would have been thinking about that and writing that at the same time.

311
00:24:31.799 --> 00:24:35.220
So this is clearly at the forefront of his thinking, which came first?

312
00:24:35.880 --> 00:24:45.299
But we also, we also have the giant space plague that wipes out all of the non-white people of Earth in Dalek invasion of Earth as well.

313
00:24:45.359 --> 00:24:49.980
So the space plague is something that he has helped himself too before.

314
00:24:50.460 --> 00:25:01.680
I thought that the most hilarious trope that gets a repeat here, though, is the large quantities of blood that don't seem to come from anywhere left behind on a physical object.

315
00:25:01.859 --> 00:25:06.779
And so it was the travel dial, I think, in peace of Paris.

316
00:25:07.380 --> 00:25:15.839
And then the hurricane land. seems to have an awful lot of blood on earth that doesn't seem to come from anywhere.

317
00:25:16.680 --> 00:25:21.599
You know, Stephen Moffatt identifies that scene as something that Terry Nation does so well.

318
00:25:21.839 --> 00:25:28.740
It's this beautiful doctor-ish moment where Sarah heads back to the Tartars to put on more clothes because she's in a water wings or whatever.

319
00:25:28.859 --> 00:25:32.640
And she turns around, she comes back to doctor and she says, don't wander off, will you?

320
00:25:32.700 --> 00:25:33.539
And he says, of course not.

321
00:25:33.720 --> 00:25:34.559
Off she goes.

322
00:25:34.680 --> 00:25:37.079
And the 1st thing he does is wander off, yeah.

323
00:25:39.000 --> 00:25:41.279
But that whole water wings thing is so terrible.

324
00:25:41.339 --> 00:25:42.900
It just reminds me that, oh, yes, that's right.

325
00:25:42.960 --> 00:25:44.579
There are so many adult Britons.

326
00:25:44.940 --> 00:25:46.920
Even to this day, you can't swim.

327
00:25:48.299 --> 00:25:53.700
I think even as a child, I thought that was a bit pathetic of Sarah not to be able to swim. did as well, Simon.

328
00:25:53.759 --> 00:25:55.980
I thought that was pretty, I was like, what are you doing?

329
00:25:56.640 --> 00:26:01.380
It is that funny line though, where she says, oh, I could sink anywhere, which I think is pretty funny.

330
00:26:01.559 --> 00:26:09.000
It's a little bit like her talking about, you know, unless you intend to stay here and raise lettuce, I guess.

331
00:26:09.299 --> 00:26:12.660
It doesn't really matter what the nutrients in the soil are like.

332
00:26:13.140 --> 00:26:18.180
And she does get one or 2 of those little fun things and that has to be Terry Nation.

333
00:26:18.480 --> 00:26:19.079
Absolutely.

334
00:26:19.140 --> 00:26:22.740
And I think she's written a lot like Joe Grant. in her story.

335
00:26:22.799 --> 00:26:25.200
Like, she's quite girly in this story.

336
00:26:25.200 --> 00:26:27.779
And I don't think that's, it's not particularly Sarah.

337
00:26:27.900 --> 00:26:33.000
You know, Miss Slaton obviously makes it the character, but I think as the doctor's companion.

338
00:26:33.059 --> 00:26:35.640
It's really pretty fun and she's also given agency.

339
00:26:36.299 --> 00:26:43.500
So she and Jill Tarrant, who is, I think, a stronger character on the page than she is in the delivery of the performance.

340
00:26:43.619 --> 00:26:51.000
Oh my god, yes, she's terrible. isn't she She does she does still have time to do her eye makeup, though, even on a even as a prisoner.

341
00:26:51.240 --> 00:26:52.559
Yeah, yeah. that is awesome.

342
00:26:52.740 --> 00:26:55.140
Wow, she's down to her last packet of sulfagen.

343
00:26:56.160 --> 00:26:57.900
She has plenty of eyeshadow.

344
00:26:59.039 --> 00:27:00.779
Yes, Agnetta blue eye shadow.

345
00:27:01.440 --> 00:27:13.920
Even Sarah had some dirt on her face at one stage. which is very unusual because normally they do look amazing, but she actually does have dirt on her face and Jill just, yeah, full hair and makeup the entire time and looks fabulous.

346
00:27:14.519 --> 00:27:20.519
She's absolutely doing like kids TV acting when the Dalek spaceship lands.

347
00:27:21.240 --> 00:27:22.259
Oh, Jill Tarant.

348
00:27:22.680 --> 00:27:24.420
Oh, yeah, just shockingly bad.

349
00:27:26.039 --> 00:27:29.579
It does make me think a little bit less of Terry.

350
00:27:29.640 --> 00:27:38.940
We've talked about Bob Holmes after lack of interest in women, but Terry seems to have a similar lack of interest, I think.

351
00:27:39.180 --> 00:27:41.339
And Jill is pretty wet.

352
00:27:41.759 --> 00:27:46.980
Certainly say compared to Jenny or Lizanne, is it Lizanne?

353
00:27:47.339 --> 00:27:48.960
Oh, oh, in Mars Clan one?

354
00:27:49.019 --> 00:27:49.980
Yeah.

355
00:27:49.980 --> 00:27:50.279
Yeah.

356
00:27:50.819 --> 00:27:52.440
Like compared to Jenny anyway.

357
00:27:53.160 --> 00:27:54.359
Barbara in the Darlin?

358
00:27:54.420 --> 00:27:55.740
Yeah, Barbara and the Daleks.

359
00:27:56.279 --> 00:27:59.880
Yeah, see Dione's terrible, though, in the Daleks as well, isn't she?

360
00:27:59.940 --> 00:28:08.339
And this is the 1st next week we're going to have the same thing, where Sarah just gets shunted off into a block, where all she gets to do is be menaced by people.

361
00:28:09.359 --> 00:28:10.859
I'm not going to disagree.

362
00:28:10.859 --> 00:28:13.380
While the doctor gets on with the actual story.

363
00:28:13.680 --> 00:28:15.539
I disagree with that because...

364
00:28:15.539 --> 00:28:23.700
The doctor does the investigation of the city, but actually Sarah paired up with Jill Tarrant, who I think must be the sister of Dell and Dita Tarrant.

365
00:28:23.759 --> 00:28:24.059
Yes.

366
00:28:24.059 --> 00:28:35.160
Actually get the prime moving of the last episode, which is making sure that the perineum gets stored onto the human spaceship rather than the Dalek space.

367
00:28:35.220 --> 00:28:36.900
I think she plays an important part of the action.

368
00:28:36.960 --> 00:28:40.380
And, you know, after John Abeniri gets some arrow down.

369
00:28:40.440 --> 00:28:43.259
And, you know, Galloway proclaims that he's the next in command.

370
00:28:43.500 --> 00:28:47.819
It's a great delivery where she says, okay, commander, how are we going to get out of this?

371
00:28:47.880 --> 00:28:49.440
Like that's actually quite a powerful.

372
00:28:49.559 --> 00:28:55.920
And that shows that while she's, you know, I mean, she's a civilian geologist, remember, she's not a member of the military.

373
00:28:55.980 --> 00:28:57.299
And it comes back to a lot of things.

374
00:28:57.359 --> 00:28:59.279
See, with Jenny in Dalek Invasion of Earth.

375
00:28:59.339 --> 00:29:01.200
I don't think it's because these people don't care anything about women.

376
00:29:01.440 --> 00:29:03.000
In Dalek Invasion of Earth.

377
00:29:03.059 --> 00:29:03.960
Jenny is a civilian.

378
00:29:04.259 --> 00:29:07.380
London has been destroyed, but it is, you know, they're at war.

379
00:29:07.440 --> 00:29:09.779
They're civilians trying to be resistance fighters.

380
00:29:10.619 --> 00:29:22.200
The concept of females in the military at all in this time is, let alone in places where they're going on a dangerous mission is very, very small.

381
00:29:22.259 --> 00:29:26.160
So it's just, it's just the world that these people are used to.

382
00:29:26.220 --> 00:29:31.380
And the fact that there's a female character in the crew at all, even classes as a civilian geologist is pretty good.

383
00:29:31.980 --> 00:29:34.019
Which makes Sarah Kingdom quite a standout.

384
00:29:34.200 --> 00:29:42.720
Yes, but we remember in that, we also get the surprise because she's only referred to as Kingdom Kingdom, and we assume she's a part of the gag here. referred to as kingdom.

385
00:29:42.779 --> 00:29:44.039
She referred to kingdom.

386
00:29:45.539 --> 00:29:46.799
I stand correctly.

387
00:29:47.220 --> 00:29:52.380
But my overall point remains that the fact that she's a woman in itself a thing in that.

388
00:29:53.160 --> 00:30:07.079
But I do think Jill is a step down from Rebeck, who is also sort of slightly wet and a bit of a liability from last week, but I still think that she's not quite as interesting as Rebeck was.

389
00:30:07.680 --> 00:30:16.079
Yeah, I mean, I don't think Jill Tarrant's that great and, you know, it might be useful to hear from the woman on our podcast. about this.

390
00:30:16.079 --> 00:30:27.420
But I will take issue with the fact that Terry Nation, as you said, Nathan, doesn't seem interested in female worlds, because as we were talking about earlier, he was probably riding survivors at the same time and survivors.

391
00:30:27.539 --> 00:30:28.200
It has a female lead.

392
00:30:28.259 --> 00:30:29.640
An incredible female lead.

393
00:30:29.700 --> 00:30:30.839
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

394
00:30:31.380 --> 00:30:35.759
I actually found that the guy, what was the other male...

395
00:30:35.819 --> 00:30:36.359
Yes.

396
00:30:36.420 --> 00:30:41.339
He's such a nice young man So he gets along so well with Chill. think he's a gay.

397
00:30:43.079 --> 00:30:45.299
The whole time I thought he was incredibly wet.

398
00:30:45.359 --> 00:30:49.980
I wouldn't have relied on him to really save the world or look after me.

399
00:30:50.039 --> 00:30:53.759
I would have been, I think if I was stranded on a planet with him.

400
00:30:53.819 --> 00:30:56.400
I'd be taking charge and looking out for myself, I think.

401
00:30:56.460 --> 00:31:01.619
I wouldn't be relying on him to take care of. me So they are hilarious, aren't they?

402
00:31:01.680 --> 00:31:05.700
And it is because they're all calling each other Peter and Richard.

403
00:31:09.839 --> 00:31:11.160
It's a very posh group.

404
00:31:12.779 --> 00:31:14.279
That's why I love it.

405
00:31:15.779 --> 00:31:18.240
And the only mean one doesn't have a posh accent.

406
00:31:18.420 --> 00:31:19.440
So what's that to us?

407
00:31:19.500 --> 00:31:19.980
That's right.

408
00:31:20.099 --> 00:31:21.059
Scottish duplicity.

409
00:31:21.359 --> 00:31:21.779
Exactly.

410
00:31:22.319 --> 00:31:23.220
Yeah, yeah.

411
00:31:23.579 --> 00:31:37.019
So, again, I think I said in FTA that one of the things that just shocked me was Galloway just refusing to take the commander's orders and pretending that he hadn't heard them.

412
00:31:37.200 --> 00:31:42.180
I just found that appallingly appallingly terrible, like unbelievable.

413
00:31:42.240 --> 00:31:43.740
And it is very ter nation, I think.

414
00:31:44.099 --> 00:31:47.160
And in the moral universe of Doc 2, that's not what good characters do.

415
00:31:47.339 --> 00:31:48.720
No, characters do.

416
00:31:48.900 --> 00:31:49.440
Absolutely.

417
00:31:49.500 --> 00:31:54.059
But he gets his redemption because he blows up the ship at the end, the dark ship at the end, sacrificing his life.

418
00:31:54.180 --> 00:31:57.000
Somewhat unnecessarily, you know, let's talk about a timing device.

419
00:31:57.059 --> 00:31:59.819
For example, but, you know, but nevertheless, the character gets that redemption.

420
00:32:00.180 --> 00:32:04.740
In a way, it's not quite redemption in the sense that he changes as a person.

421
00:32:05.160 --> 00:32:13.140
What we get is a revelation that he's prepared to do anything to save these people, including sacrificing himself.

422
00:32:13.319 --> 00:32:18.359
So he has this sort of utilitarian calculus, but he doesn't exempt himself from it.

423
00:32:18.720 --> 00:32:21.720
But also it shows that, you know, maybe that's what a good commander would do.

424
00:32:22.200 --> 00:32:22.799
Well, exactly.

425
00:32:22.859 --> 00:32:23.880
The captain goes down with the ship.

426
00:32:24.539 --> 00:32:34.200
But yes, I mean, that's why at least, whilst I don't think the character is that deep, it is nice to have someone rather than it's just like a villainous or a menu here for myself, I'm here for the glory.

427
00:32:34.259 --> 00:32:36.480
I just want to save the universe and get medals.

428
00:32:36.660 --> 00:32:48.720
All the things he said before about sacrificing the excellence or sacrificing other crew members or whatever it is, is for the greater good, the greater good is to save 1000000s should really be 1000000s, but it's to save 1000000s of people from this disease.

429
00:32:49.079 --> 00:33:02.039
And the reason he disobeys the commander's orders is because he feels that in order to achieve that he needs to take the reins, because he feels that Peter will be too wet and will just rightly so, I think.

430
00:33:02.099 --> 00:33:04.079
Exactly. not unreasonable. not unreasonable.

431
00:33:04.140 --> 00:33:09.059
Galloway's one who has the idea when they're up the top of the city to only use the one wall.

432
00:33:09.420 --> 00:33:11.519
So he's the one who actually is advanced.

433
00:33:11.579 --> 00:33:13.500
Oh, yes, there's so much you can do with bombs in Doctor Who.

434
00:33:14.160 --> 00:33:15.599
Absolutely there is, Simon.

435
00:33:16.380 --> 00:33:27.839
But that was a bit like Noah in the Arkan space because he was the guy who was a bit of a dick the whole episode and not very nice at all and then he kind of does the big ultimate sacrifice for the human race at the end.

436
00:33:27.839 --> 00:33:29.759
Yeah, yeah.

437
00:33:29.819 --> 00:33:37.259
I mean, I think that there is a sort of very terry nation thing about that kind of morality.

438
00:33:37.799 --> 00:33:59.099
And, you know, we had that sort of fairly unsophisticated discussion of pacifism and things in the daleks, but it does show that asking questions about people's kind of moral frameworks is something that Terry Nation's interested in, and he is interested in people sacrificing themselves for the good of other people like Dortmund, I guess.

439
00:33:59.160 --> 00:33:59.700
That's right.

440
00:33:59.759 --> 00:34:01.559
And as we will see next week in Genesis.

441
00:34:01.920 --> 00:34:08.039
He is the one who crafts the doctor as a moral figure and presents him with moral dilemmas.

442
00:34:08.460 --> 00:34:09.539
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

443
00:34:09.599 --> 00:34:15.900
Yeah, there's several really important conversations about morality next week, which we'll obviously be talking about.

444
00:34:16.800 --> 00:34:19.079
And one less important one about morality last week.

445
00:34:20.639 --> 00:34:22.679
I love the courage thing.

446
00:34:22.739 --> 00:34:23.699
Yeah, it's wonderful.

447
00:34:24.239 --> 00:34:25.199
It's a moment of charm.

448
00:34:35.820 --> 00:34:39.900
I think Terry doesn't get enough kudos for his elegant character work.

449
00:34:39.960 --> 00:34:48.059
He doesn't draw deep characters and he doesn't draw them in lots of colours, but he plugs them into the plot and they move things forward efficiently.

450
00:34:48.059 --> 00:34:53.340
And if we are going to talk about characters in the story, one must talk about Belal.

451
00:34:53.340 --> 00:35:01.559
Because Belal is quite an incredible whimsical creation that comes from the pen of terry nation and I don't think that's all in the performance.

452
00:35:03.000 --> 00:35:08.519
So he is essentially kind of Wester redone, isn't he?

453
00:35:08.579 --> 00:35:08.880
Yes.

454
00:35:08.940 --> 00:35:09.420
Yeah.

455
00:35:09.840 --> 00:35:14.219
And obviously, the performance is very charming.

456
00:35:15.000 --> 00:35:18.360
Arnold Yarrow, who died, I think, last year at the age of 102.

457
00:35:18.480 --> 00:35:19.079
Oh wow.

458
00:35:19.260 --> 00:35:20.099
Yeah, yeah.

459
00:35:20.820 --> 00:35:22.980
I mean, it's a very big performance, but it needs to be.

460
00:35:23.039 --> 00:35:26.519
It's that this is how one needs to act when one has no facial expressions.

461
00:35:26.579 --> 00:35:32.280
So lots of things happen with arms and double takes with shoulders and things. body movement.

462
00:35:32.340 --> 00:35:33.780
Yeah, body movement, something like that.

463
00:35:33.840 --> 00:35:35.820
I love the other one, some of his fellow rebels.

464
00:35:36.000 --> 00:35:36.659
GoTow.

465
00:35:36.659 --> 00:35:40.559
Yeah, I didn't realise they were names. which is so good.

466
00:35:41.159 --> 00:35:52.619
But yeah, it's lovely to see, which you don't actually get very often in perkwear stories because you've got unit people anyway, but you don't really get very many surrogate companions in Bel Al in those last 2 episodes is a surrogate companion.

467
00:35:52.800 --> 00:35:55.980
The doctor's calling him old chap and putting his arm around him.

468
00:35:56.219 --> 00:36:01.440
Yeah, and the other thing we get is the fact that Sarah is, of course, terrified of him at first, even though she knows she shouldn't be.

469
00:36:01.500 --> 00:36:05.820
She's just, 0 my god, this hideous thing with like glowing bits on him.

470
00:36:05.880 --> 00:36:07.260
And, um...

471
00:36:08.820 --> 00:36:09.960
I didn't want to say.

472
00:36:11.159 --> 00:36:13.739
But she and she's trying to overcome that.

473
00:36:13.800 --> 00:36:17.400
And you know, when she puts her hand on her in his arm and then suddenly realised, 0 my god, I'm touched.

474
00:36:17.699 --> 00:36:19.739
It's a dry rum and I cook.

475
00:36:19.860 --> 00:36:20.519
Yeah, exactly.

476
00:36:20.579 --> 00:36:21.179
Yes, it is.

477
00:36:21.239 --> 00:36:33.119
But it's also great then to see as one should see, the doctor then coming in and treating him like a just like a person who's your friend and treating him from the get go, like any individual.

478
00:36:33.119 --> 00:36:35.159
And that's the underlying morality of Doctor Who.

479
00:36:35.820 --> 00:36:37.380
I think that's that's great when you see that.

480
00:36:37.679 --> 00:36:38.340
So that's right.

481
00:36:38.400 --> 00:36:40.380
This is Sarah's 1st trip to an alien planet.

482
00:36:40.440 --> 00:36:41.880
And so she started jumping out of her skin.

483
00:36:41.940 --> 00:36:45.179
Yeah, he's a bit of a doomy alien planet to have your 1st trip on.

484
00:36:45.719 --> 00:36:46.079
Yeah.

485
00:36:46.559 --> 00:36:54.719
And I think the fact that Bel is spoken about in fan circles as a pseudo-companion. you know, I could have been companion.

486
00:36:54.780 --> 00:37:07.679
I mean, personally, I can't really, I can't really see him in robots or just Daleks, but he's spoken about in the same breath as someone like Will Chandler from The Awakening, as a companion who could have been but wasn't.

487
00:37:08.099 --> 00:37:12.360
And it's very interesting that they're quite similar characters in that kind of thing.

488
00:37:12.420 --> 00:37:13.079
Will Chandler?

489
00:37:13.139 --> 00:37:16.860
Yeah, they're kind of charming naivety and kind of like almost childlike presence.

490
00:37:18.300 --> 00:37:20.639
A lot of front axial projection in this story.

491
00:37:22.559 --> 00:37:24.780
I think it's still super impressive.

492
00:37:25.139 --> 00:37:38.460
So you've got it on Bell Out costume and you've obviously got it on the walls of the city in close-up, and it's just done in camera, and I think it looks really quite effective.

493
00:37:38.760 --> 00:37:39.539
Is that what it is?

494
00:37:39.599 --> 00:37:41.340
I thought that's not the thing from silver nemesis.

495
00:37:41.400 --> 00:37:42.000
Yeah, it is.

496
00:37:42.000 --> 00:37:43.800
I didn't think it existed until seven.

497
00:37:44.099 --> 00:37:44.699
Oh, we did.

498
00:37:44.820 --> 00:37:48.539
I just thought it was a luminescent, like a glow in the dark sort of substance.

499
00:37:48.719 --> 00:37:53.940
No, so from axial projection, they put a certain paint on it and they put a lighting rig to the side.

500
00:37:55.199 --> 00:37:55.980
And that makes sense.

501
00:37:56.099 --> 00:37:59.340
But who knew that that lighter makes that woo, woo, woo, woo.

502
00:38:00.840 --> 00:38:04.500
Again, the importance of sound often underestimated.

503
00:38:04.619 --> 00:38:10.739
You know, in different hands, what I feel is a mediocre story would actually be very dull indeed because you'd have no sound.

504
00:38:10.800 --> 00:38:13.019
You'd hear the polystarine of the cave walls.

505
00:38:13.260 --> 00:38:16.800
You know, a bit of reverb makes you feel, yes, I'm in a cave, you know.

506
00:38:16.980 --> 00:38:29.940
I mean, one of those incredible what ifs was that Paddy Russell was originally earmarked to direct this story, and I think she would have done quite an interesting job of it, which meant that Michael Bryant would have done invasion of the dinosaurs, and I think would have done a fairly decent job of that.

507
00:38:30.000 --> 00:38:35.760
So there is an alternate universe out there where this is directed by Paddy Russell and would have been pretty great, I think.

508
00:38:36.360 --> 00:38:38.219
I think even Paddy would have struggled with them.

509
00:38:38.219 --> 00:38:39.539
Episode four.

510
00:38:40.079 --> 00:38:41.519
Some of the things you needed to do in this.

511
00:38:41.519 --> 00:38:43.860
I mean, a lot of that's down to design.

512
00:38:43.920 --> 00:38:49.619
I don't think the design work in the story, apart from the city model, which is incredible.

513
00:38:50.099 --> 00:38:52.559
I don't think the scenery is that great.

514
00:38:52.619 --> 00:38:54.300
The tunnels are pretty uninspired.

515
00:38:54.360 --> 00:38:57.239
The flats in the city look very, very bad.

516
00:38:57.960 --> 00:38:59.039
Indeed, flat.

517
00:38:59.099 --> 00:39:03.420
Well, yeah, with a few sort of latter spits, just to kind of, you know, which are not shot through.

518
00:39:03.480 --> 00:39:04.739
You know, this missed opportunity, Michael.

519
00:39:04.800 --> 00:39:05.400
No, there was ones.

520
00:39:05.400 --> 00:39:07.079
The Darlings going past them. them Yes, I know.

521
00:39:07.260 --> 00:39:09.780
But not like Douglas, where he's sort of using them in the frame.

522
00:39:09.780 --> 00:39:11.159
Every moment he can.

523
00:39:11.340 --> 00:39:11.760
Exactly.

524
00:39:12.719 --> 00:39:21.360
But the designer is Colin Green, and Colin Green's only other Doctor Who story is enlightenment, where he does, I think, a better job.

525
00:39:21.539 --> 00:39:25.739
It's interesting that those are the 2 stories and not 2 Pantheon, where the TARDIS loses power.

526
00:39:34.019 --> 00:39:37.380
There is a famous story where...

527
00:39:37.380 --> 00:39:38.340
Is it Death to the Darling?

528
00:39:38.400 --> 00:39:40.139
It is called Death to the Dark.

529
00:39:40.800 --> 00:39:48.539
There's a famous story that when Terry comes up with a script for Genesis of the Daleks.

530
00:39:48.599 --> 00:39:54.239
I think Terence says, that's lovely, but you've sold it this script to us twice already.

531
00:39:54.960 --> 00:39:58.800
Now, I don't think that's fair, but this, I think it's a little bit fair.

532
00:39:59.039 --> 00:40:00.179
It is a bit fair.

533
00:40:00.239 --> 00:40:02.639
This is very similar to last week, isn't it?

534
00:40:02.940 --> 00:40:03.900
There are aspects.

535
00:40:03.960 --> 00:40:06.119
Look, obviously it's not always the same.

536
00:40:06.179 --> 00:40:15.659
It's just the fact that Terry has his soup of stuff and he picks out different things each time and so there are inevitable overlaps between different stories.

537
00:40:15.840 --> 00:40:24.780
And I think Death to the Daleks and Planet of the Daleks are probably the 2 best examples where there are many elements which are similar to other terri nation stories.

538
00:40:24.960 --> 00:40:29.219
They're both a melting pot of kind of his archetypes, but you know, that's a pretty great pot.

539
00:40:29.460 --> 00:40:30.840
I'm not saying that's necessarily bad.

540
00:40:30.900 --> 00:40:31.679
I'm not saying it's wrong.

541
00:40:31.739 --> 00:40:37.679
You know, he's going to what works and so on like that, but what Terrence was saying was that we need something else, we need something a bit more different.

542
00:40:38.280 --> 00:40:46.380
And you get the idea that Terry is, I push back on this idea, this sort of terrible criticism of him, that he was a lazy writer.

543
00:40:46.619 --> 00:40:47.880
You're not lazy at all.

544
00:40:47.940 --> 00:40:55.019
He knows what works, but also what he also needs is another creative to push him and say, how about this?

545
00:40:55.559 --> 00:41:03.059
When he's given the idea of, let's go back to the genesis of the Daleks, he knocks it out of the park because he's got something a different focus.

546
00:41:03.659 --> 00:41:10.500
We'll talk more about, I think why Genesis is so successful next episode, but I will push back on your pushback.

547
00:41:10.679 --> 00:41:12.659
And I think I said this early in an earlier episode.

548
00:41:12.719 --> 00:41:17.340
I'm not saying that Terry Nation is a lazy writer, but he is a jobbing writer.

549
00:41:17.400 --> 00:41:18.480
He is a business writer.

550
00:41:18.539 --> 00:41:21.059
He's got episodes of this to write episodes of that.

551
00:41:21.119 --> 00:41:22.380
You know, he's getting real work.

552
00:41:22.920 --> 00:41:24.659
I'm not saying it's laziness.

553
00:41:24.719 --> 00:41:29.039
Sometimes the 1st idea that comes to your head, often that 1st idea is the best ones.

554
00:41:29.099 --> 00:41:31.920
That's why often some of the best Doctor Who stories are the ones that had to be written in a weekend.

555
00:41:32.219 --> 00:41:34.739
Because they don't have time to sort of wonder about this wonder about that.

556
00:41:34.800 --> 00:41:35.699
You go to the right things.

557
00:41:35.760 --> 00:41:36.659
I find it my own work.

558
00:41:36.780 --> 00:41:42.360
There's a kind of laziness which makes you efficient because, you know, you don't want...

559
00:41:42.420 --> 00:41:43.559
You're looking for the best shortcuts.

560
00:41:43.619 --> 00:41:45.179
Let the guess this done. lets get this out of the part.

561
00:41:45.239 --> 00:41:45.780
We know what works.

562
00:41:45.840 --> 00:41:46.800
Let's not overthink this.

563
00:41:47.519 --> 00:41:48.659
That's his thing.

564
00:41:49.079 --> 00:41:58.380
I do think, yes, as you said, Peter, though, the other creators that he works with, I think do impact what he comes up with.

565
00:41:58.440 --> 00:42:09.840
I think that's one of the reasons as we kind of gotten to why working with Derek Spooner and Donald Toshford, Masterplane ends up with a bit of a, well, there's some good stuff there, but there's a lot of weird laziness as well.

566
00:42:11.159 --> 00:42:12.179
Terry's writing, though.

567
00:42:14.460 --> 00:42:19.679
Okay, but in some respects, I think he's left to his own devices in things like the chase.

568
00:42:19.800 --> 00:42:39.420
It's curious that given the fact that you've got such a strong production team in the form, Barrelettes and Terence Dix, that both plan of the Darks and Death of the Daleks are so, in a number of ways, unremarkable when Robert Holmes and Philip Shinscliffe are able to get such great work out of him for Genesis and very good work out of him for Android invasion.

569
00:42:39.480 --> 00:42:46.079
I think, yes, it's the collaboration process because it's not just the fact that we're not, I'm not saying that Robert Holmes, right, half of Genesis the Tug.

570
00:42:46.139 --> 00:42:48.300
I'm saying that it's the collaboration.

571
00:42:48.360 --> 00:42:49.500
It's the gentle pushback.

572
00:42:49.559 --> 00:42:50.579
See, well, what about this idea?

573
00:42:50.639 --> 00:42:51.059
What about that?

574
00:42:51.119 --> 00:42:57.239
And then someone like Termination, who is not proud of his own work going, oh, no, I must keep that because it's the most pivotal part.

575
00:42:57.659 --> 00:42:58.980
He'll go, yep, you're right.

576
00:42:59.039 --> 00:43:00.059
That's crap. lets do this.

577
00:43:00.599 --> 00:43:03.539
That's what makes him a professional, which people can work with.

578
00:43:03.599 --> 00:43:04.199
That's right.

579
00:43:04.260 --> 00:43:16.619
And if he'd come into the office and have been, I'm Terry Nation, and I'm writing the story that I always want to write, the criticism would work of him sort of being a bit lazy and being a bit of a hack, and I will push back on that word in particular very much next week.

580
00:43:17.820 --> 00:43:23.760
But the fact that he's open to ideas and sits down collegiately with the production team and says, okay, what do you want?

581
00:43:23.820 --> 00:43:24.780
What do you want me to do with this?

582
00:43:24.840 --> 00:43:29.159
Okay, we'll do that, indicates that he's an intelligent and empathetic writer as well.

583
00:43:29.699 --> 00:43:31.679
And not precious if someone says, how about this?

584
00:43:31.739 --> 00:43:32.280
This is a better idea.

585
00:43:32.340 --> 00:43:34.440
And he'll go, yeah, it is. lets do that. absolutely.

586
00:43:35.280 --> 00:43:39.840
I think I probably said last week that I do like Planet of the Daleks quite a lot.

587
00:43:40.019 --> 00:43:40.619
Oh, yeah.

588
00:43:40.739 --> 00:43:59.219
And, you know, after a bit of an absence from the show, it's nice to sort of come back and do our sort of dialect greatest hits, it resets the daleks and imagines them in the sort of terms that Terry Nation had introduced them, you know, in the daleks, and in Dalek's masterplan.

589
00:43:59.400 --> 00:44:01.739
This is the Daleks from those stories.

590
00:44:02.039 --> 00:44:07.800
I do think that this is a little bit too similar. to Planet of the Dalegs.

591
00:44:07.860 --> 00:44:22.619
And I guess that the idea of the city, which isn't super original, as we've said before, is, I guess, what lifts it and makes this different from last week. sort of the power drain that makes it different, isn't it?

592
00:44:22.679 --> 00:44:23.039
Yeah.

593
00:44:23.039 --> 00:44:23.820
Maybe.

594
00:44:23.820 --> 00:44:27.179
I think there's quite a lot of points of difference between Plum and Alex and Death to the Dialect.

595
00:44:27.239 --> 00:44:27.960
Yes, of course there are.

596
00:44:28.019 --> 00:44:34.619
I think people lump them together and they sort of undersell Planet of the Daleks a little bit as, oh, Terry was just revisiting his greatest hits.

597
00:44:34.739 --> 00:44:41.760
Yes, he was, but it was also the 10th anniversary of Dogs Who and the Daleks and said, that's why he was doing it. absolutely the right time to do that.

598
00:44:42.179 --> 00:44:43.679
I actually think the death of the Daleks.

599
00:44:43.739 --> 00:44:50.699
Well, it's a bit of a similar setup with kind of, you know, the human characters on an alien planet full of dangers.

600
00:44:50.880 --> 00:44:56.340
I think there's a lot of points of difference and certainly atmospherically, I think they feel quite different.

601
00:44:56.880 --> 00:44:58.679
I agree atmospherically, they feel different.

602
00:44:58.739 --> 00:45:01.500
Again, yes, obviously they're not the same.

603
00:45:01.559 --> 00:45:05.099
They're different for a whole host of reasons, partly because of who's making them.

604
00:45:05.159 --> 00:45:11.400
But when I'm watching Death of the Daleks, even when I watched it for the 1st time, it just felt very run of the mill familiar.

605
00:45:11.460 --> 00:45:17.099
We've done all this before and not in a comforting way, but in a not looking at my watch kind of way.

606
00:45:17.159 --> 00:45:20.099
I wouldn't want to dare suggest that, but just it's not that interesting.

607
00:45:20.219 --> 00:45:28.619
Plan of the Daleks, I think you do get away with it being similar to aspects of master plan and others because enough time has passed.

608
00:45:30.000 --> 00:45:34.440
Master plan's only shown once, but even by 1973, it probably doesn't exist anymore.

609
00:45:34.559 --> 00:45:35.400
Well, maybe it does.

610
00:45:35.400 --> 00:45:37.139
There are those play Eclipedia clips, but you know what I mean?

611
00:45:37.199 --> 00:45:40.679
Like, it is, for, to all intents and purposes, it doesn't exist.

612
00:45:41.280 --> 00:45:51.420
So I think you can get away with that, whereas I think Plan of the Diaries has got a different reason rather than a lack of originality, which is why it disappoints in some ways while still being great.

613
00:45:51.719 --> 00:46:07.800
But yeah, it's hard to pinpoint, and it's not just the fact that, yes, Belala's Wester, and, okay, instead of a group of fowls that are stranded on the plane, you've got to be humans, you've still got the kind of indigenous people who are enslaved by the Daleks to mine, you know, slaves being made to mine, all that kind of stuff.

614
00:46:07.860 --> 00:46:19.619
It's just, here we go again, in a way that even though I feel that season 11 as a whole is comparatively unremarkable with the absolute exception of Time Warrior, it adds to that flavour of the show is reaching.

615
00:46:19.739 --> 00:46:22.019
A production team is reaching the end of its inspiration.

616
00:46:22.559 --> 00:46:25.500
I think it's also probably proximity, direct proximity.

617
00:46:25.559 --> 00:46:26.639
If there was a season in between them.

618
00:46:26.940 --> 00:46:28.199
We would be having this conversation.

619
00:46:28.320 --> 00:46:33.179
It's the fact that Planet of the Dialect was the 4th story of last season. and this is the 3rd story of this season.

620
00:46:33.239 --> 00:46:34.679
So there's only 2 stories between them.

621
00:46:34.920 --> 00:46:35.280
Yes.

622
00:46:35.280 --> 00:46:37.800
And, you know, when Invasion of the Dinosaurs wasn't being shown.

623
00:46:37.860 --> 00:46:39.059
It was very close.

624
00:46:39.119 --> 00:46:41.219
Although we weren't getting planned on the Darks either, so I scratched it.

625
00:46:48.000 --> 00:46:56.099
My main problem with the Daleks was that as well as being sort of impotent, you know, with having their laser guns taken away kind of thing.

626
00:46:56.639 --> 00:47:05.760
Although I thought it was quite amusing once they did work out how to get the, you know, use the, you know, the mechanical guns, how they were kind of like almost like little kids got to go.

627
00:47:08.099 --> 00:47:16.679
But yeah, I think that was a good opportunity to show just like how ruthless and terrifying they are by the fact that they're also like they are an intelligent alien.

628
00:47:17.099 --> 00:47:20.099
Whereas in this, they also made them incredibly stupid.

629
00:47:20.159 --> 00:47:22.920
I think probably the most stupid that we've seen them so far.

630
00:47:23.639 --> 00:47:24.840
I mean, you have seen the chase.

631
00:47:25.380 --> 00:47:26.460
Yeah, the good point.

632
00:47:26.519 --> 00:47:26.820
Yeah.

633
00:47:29.099 --> 00:47:30.360
No, but Fiona, you're right.

634
00:47:31.679 --> 00:47:37.320
There are stupid things that they're made to do in the chase as for a comedy, whereas here they are actually stupid in comparison.

635
00:47:38.099 --> 00:47:50.699
Yeah, and things like, you know, when they're going through the Excelon city and they've had the doctor already go through and they have like one of those um, the tiles where you've got to step on the, the, you had to do the Venusian hopscotch.

636
00:47:50.699 --> 00:47:56.280
And the doctor demonstrated, you know, that one of the, if you stepped on a red tile, it would blow up.

637
00:47:56.519 --> 00:47:58.440
So the daleks come across this one.

638
00:47:58.679 --> 00:48:00.599
Oh, there's suddenly there's some tiles here.

639
00:48:00.659 --> 00:48:07.739
That might be a bit suspicious, but also one of these tiles has already like got an explosive, you know, burn mark on it.

640
00:48:07.800 --> 00:48:12.719
So, it could be dangerous, but yet they just go, oh, we'll just go across it.

641
00:48:12.719 --> 00:48:14.460
And, you know, what could possibly go wrong?

642
00:48:14.460 --> 00:48:18.719
Oh, there's one dialect to turn to the other and say it's as easy as pie.

643
00:48:18.780 --> 00:48:19.860
Yeah, exactly.

644
00:48:19.920 --> 00:48:22.199
I don't think they were prepared to stand there and play pigeon pie.

645
00:48:23.219 --> 00:48:27.539
Yeah, lots of little things that where the dialects just looked like they were stupid.

646
00:48:28.320 --> 00:48:32.699
I mean, you've got Sarah and Jill like while they're being watched by the Daleks.

647
00:48:34.500 --> 00:48:37.679
Yeah, yeah, yeah. that's right Somehow that goes unnoticed.

648
00:48:38.159 --> 00:48:44.280
Also, Dalek does kill itself, though. 10000000 people, they're all getting like one grain of sand, aren't they?

649
00:48:44.519 --> 00:48:48.480
Well, maybe it dissolves it soluble in water and maybe it's kind of like...

650
00:48:48.539 --> 00:48:51.179
Maybe it's like, yes, maybe it's homeopathy.

651
00:48:51.239 --> 00:48:52.079
Maybe there are...

652
00:48:55.380 --> 00:49:07.079
And those, the excellence, in the bit where they're sort of mining and they've got that big sort of pool and they have the excellence sort of like going through as slowly, like, how could they move any slower through the water?

653
00:49:07.079 --> 00:49:18.360
And then the vacuum cleaner wants to comes out and it's like, okay, we might need, the shark in the water. let's get out of the water kind of thing and and it's kind of again like, can we move any slower to get out of the water?

654
00:49:18.960 --> 00:49:21.960
And then one of them gets shot so that he is in flames.

655
00:49:22.079 --> 00:49:23.820
But rather than going, well, I'm in water.

656
00:49:24.420 --> 00:49:25.440
But maybe...

657
00:49:29.340 --> 00:49:30.179
Yeah, yeah.

658
00:49:30.239 --> 00:49:32.039
Well, maybe they're not That's Terry Walsh.

659
00:49:32.099 --> 00:49:34.500
It says Terry Walsh needs needing to show off a bit.

660
00:49:34.559 --> 00:49:42.780
But again, but again, found to remember underneath all this, they're all British extras and, you know, Brits don't have a very good relationship with swimming pools and oceans.

661
00:49:42.840 --> 00:49:45.239
And so, you know, in a sharp head under, love.

662
00:49:45.659 --> 00:49:48.420
Yeah, that's why we feed them to the sharks at Bondi.

663
00:49:48.659 --> 00:49:50.460
It's just, you know, useful.

664
00:49:51.659 --> 00:50:06.960
I think it's useful to understand death to the Dalek's relationship to the doctor audience after the fact because Death to Alex was the 1st budget VHS released here. 7 and it was a big seller.

665
00:50:07.139 --> 00:50:07.920
Huge seller.

666
00:50:07.980 --> 00:50:08.519
That's right.

667
00:50:08.579 --> 00:50:15.300
So it came out at 999 pounds. and I think was a special promotion in WH Smith or something like that.

668
00:50:16.199 --> 00:50:17.760
And so it was a very big seller.

669
00:50:17.820 --> 00:50:22.860
So lots of people owned Doctor Who on videotape for the 1st time and it was this story.

670
00:50:23.820 --> 00:50:30.780
Can you think of a better story, not necessarily quality wise, but archetype wise, for someone to own.

671
00:50:31.199 --> 00:50:38.940
I can think of many, many, many better stories that they could have gone with, even taking out the ones that had already been released at huge stupid prices by that time.

672
00:50:39.000 --> 00:50:39.659
Four times, yeah.

673
00:50:39.840 --> 00:50:47.159
But it had to be a, it had to be a four-parter for this, obviously, because 6 part ones were put out on 2 videos.

674
00:50:47.280 --> 00:50:48.300
Oh, not at this time.

675
00:50:48.780 --> 00:50:50.519
This is before, because this is when they're started.

676
00:50:50.519 --> 00:50:54.960
Releasing omnibuses, but the 6 partners they released were talons and seeds of death.

677
00:50:54.960 --> 00:50:58.619
At this time, they hadn't released, but, you know, their seeds of doom there.

678
00:50:58.679 --> 00:51:01.679
But you know, if they wanted a Dalek story, they could have released Destiny of the Daleks.

679
00:51:01.739 --> 00:51:02.940
That was still far enough ago.

680
00:51:03.000 --> 00:51:04.619
But look, I mean, whatever.

681
00:51:04.679 --> 00:51:07.139
But it absolutely solved an absolute mint.

682
00:51:07.199 --> 00:51:14.400
And I always remember thinking at the time, it wasn't one that I was a go-to story, but when I watched it, it was, oh, that was actually quite good.

683
00:51:14.460 --> 00:51:17.039
I quite enjoyed that, it kind of, you know, moved about and things happened.

684
00:51:17.579 --> 00:51:25.739
Yeah, these things are a self-fulfilling prophecy because I think it was probably put out because they thought, you know, it's four-part Dalek story with John Pertwheat, that'll do well.

685
00:51:26.280 --> 00:51:32.820
People bought it because of that, but then it's a self-reinforcing thing because it is one of the most Doctor Who stories of all time.

686
00:51:32.940 --> 00:51:36.900
And so the fact that it became a big seller just is meant to be.

687
00:51:37.320 --> 00:51:47.340
It wouldn't surprise me, actually, if it also had to do with John Pertwe's availability, because he was always, when he was alive, he was always made himself available for any kind of promotion.

688
00:51:47.340 --> 00:51:52.079
Willing to turn up to the opening of an envelope, if anything like this, whereas Tom at that time really wasn't.

689
00:51:52.440 --> 00:51:54.960
And so I bet that was something to do with it as well.

690
00:51:55.320 --> 00:51:55.860
That's right.

691
00:51:55.860 --> 00:51:57.900
You can imagine. he could do all the signings.

692
00:51:57.960 --> 00:51:59.940
There was a season 14 Dalek story.

693
00:52:00.480 --> 00:52:03.539
It would have been the 1st story released in any media at any time.

694
00:52:03.599 --> 00:52:05.039
The 1st VHS out.

695
00:52:05.099 --> 00:52:08.400
The 1st DVD out, that four-part Hinchcliffe Dalek story.

696
00:52:08.579 --> 00:52:10.079
What, not Revenge of the Cyberman?

697
00:52:12.059 --> 00:52:15.960
Do you know, that was, I think that was £50 for them when that was released in 83.

698
00:52:16.500 --> 00:52:19.619
Funny, that's what Kaftan...

699
00:52:20.699 --> 00:52:26.340
In the story that everybody voted that they wanted at Longley, was Tomb, which sadly didn't exist at the time.

700
00:52:26.400 --> 00:52:29.219
But that's an astonishing amount of money in 1983.

701
00:52:29.820 --> 00:52:31.199
An astonishing amount of money.

702
00:52:31.440 --> 00:52:35.579
Oh, I just was just astonished by that. £50 in 1983.

703
00:52:36.780 --> 00:52:38.820
What would be the equivalent of that in today's money?

704
00:52:38.880 --> 00:52:39.900
That would have to be a lot.

705
00:52:40.079 --> 00:52:42.300
We'll be talking about £150, £160.

706
00:52:42.719 --> 00:52:43.920
Yeah, maybe even 200, I guess.

707
00:52:43.980 --> 00:52:44.400
Who knows?

708
00:52:44.460 --> 00:52:45.420
But something of that order.

709
00:52:45.480 --> 00:52:46.619
Just an astonishing amount.

710
00:52:46.980 --> 00:52:48.300
Avenger the Cyberman.

711
00:52:48.659 --> 00:52:51.300
Yes, with the wrong logo, one on the wrong side of it on the front.

712
00:52:51.360 --> 00:52:52.440
I mean, God.

713
00:53:20.340 --> 00:53:22.619
Well, that's all the time we had for this week.

714
00:53:22.679 --> 00:53:28.559
We'll be back next week to see how it all began, again, in Genesis of the Daleks.

715
00:53:29.820 --> 00:53:48.840
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts, and you can keep up with us on our website, 500yeardiary.com, where you'll find our social media links as well as links to all of our other podcasts, including the entirety of flight through entirety, which comprises every episode of our 4 Doctor Who podcasts.

716
00:53:50.340 --> 00:53:55.800
Until next time, remember that sand is coarse and rough and irritating and it gets everywhere.

717
00:53:56.880 --> 00:53:58.619
Even in your perineum.

718
00:53:59.340 --> 00:54:01.380
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

719
00:54:01.980 --> 00:54:02.579
Good night.

720
00:54:02.820 --> 00:54:03.360
Good night.

721
00:54:03.539 --> 00:54:04.139
Bye bye.

722
00:54:15.480 --> 00:54:21.480
That was 500 year diary, starring Nathan Bottomley, Peter Griffiths, Simon Moore, and Fiona Tomney.

723
00:54:21.599 --> 00:54:24.000
The theme was composed by Cameron Lamb.

724
00:54:24.300 --> 00:54:30.960
This episode, Goon Daleks, was recorded on the 19th of July, 2026 and released on the 4th of October.

725
00:54:32.760 --> 00:54:43.500
By the most amazing coincidence, the members of the next Marine Space Corps expedition to land on the planet Exilon were also called Nathan, Peter, Simon, and Fiona.

726
00:54:43.920 --> 00:54:52.199
Their mission, to gather all the premium they could eat, before heading off into town to celebrate in one of the nicer Exolonian wine bars.

727
00:55:01.500 --> 00:55:02.639
Oh, yes, yes, yes.

728
00:55:03.360 --> 00:55:04.739
Well, I reckon we talk about that.

729
00:55:04.920 --> 00:55:06.480
This is a tag. do you think?

730
00:55:06.539 --> 00:55:06.960
Yeah, yeah.

731
00:55:07.019 --> 00:55:07.260
Yeah.

732
00:55:07.320 --> 00:55:14.699
So, Simon and I, Simon, you and I have had differing opinions about credits over the years.

733
00:55:15.780 --> 00:55:25.500
I remember one moment where you said that the 2nd Matt Smith credits are the best... 21st century, yes.

734
00:55:26.820 --> 00:55:27.719
Yeah, absolutely not.

735
00:55:29.039 --> 00:55:35.940
But I think we agree that the season 11 credits are the best in the classic series.

736
00:55:36.000 --> 00:55:36.780
They're remarkable.

737
00:55:36.900 --> 00:55:43.139
I mean, there's such a step forward from the still obviously very good, you know, 7 to 10 credits.

738
00:55:44.039 --> 00:55:49.440
I think one of the reasons why they have a place in many fans' hearts, and I know Todd feels the same about this too.

739
00:55:49.679 --> 00:55:57.360
I think they're his favourite classic series credits as well, is because we are so used to those Tom credits because of course they're on so many episodes.

740
00:55:57.599 --> 00:56:04.139
Whereas this has all the best bits of the Tom credits, with the exception that there's missing the TARDIS.

741
00:56:04.199 --> 00:56:08.760
But look, that John Pertwee shaped time tunnel. don't know what they got on about this.

742
00:56:08.820 --> 00:56:11.159
But there's just something incredibly effective about that.

743
00:56:11.219 --> 00:56:15.239
And I don't think the silhouette of any other doctor works with that.

744
00:56:15.300 --> 00:56:24.360
The way John has this incredible distinctive, the cape makes a perm, but his stance, the buffon hair is just right.

745
00:56:24.420 --> 00:56:25.739
And that's why I joked.

746
00:56:26.219 --> 00:56:32.340
I only half joked when we were doing deep breath that it could have worked with Capaldi as well.

747
00:56:32.460 --> 00:56:37.500
Yeah, yeah, for the same reasons because he, I mean, he had, there was a certain pert-esqueness about his doctor.

748
00:56:37.679 --> 00:56:50.159
But yeah, the way those, those, the, the, the circular lights, like lightning coming towards you is so much forward energy, so much more information that you don't get in the credits up to this point.

749
00:56:50.219 --> 00:56:51.840
There is no sense of forward travel.

750
00:56:51.900 --> 00:56:53.460
There is a sense of a pattern on the screen.

751
00:56:53.940 --> 00:57:06.239
Whereas this is the 1st time you get the sense of travelling through time and my god, how powerful and of course creating the introducing the what is unquestionably the best logo, the program has ever had.

752
00:57:06.300 --> 00:57:08.400
If it wasn't the best, why have we gone back to it?

753
00:57:08.460 --> 00:57:09.659
Yeah, of course we've gone back.

754
00:57:09.659 --> 00:57:11.820
Alex is very worthy of the diamond load.

755
00:57:11.880 --> 00:57:14.219
Very worthy of the Diamond logo. absolutely.

756
00:57:14.280 --> 00:57:15.480
What were you going to say, Fiona?

757
00:57:15.539 --> 00:57:16.380
I think you were going to counter that.

758
00:57:16.679 --> 00:57:18.719
Yeah, it's actually not my favourite.

759
00:57:18.780 --> 00:57:22.619
I still, I'm still, this, the tong face thing.

760
00:57:22.679 --> 00:57:26.219
I just, it's just image of Tom's face is so good.

761
00:57:27.179 --> 00:57:33.960
However, all the other bits, I do agree with that all the swirly bits and like that is pretty special.

762
00:57:34.320 --> 00:57:37.679
But with the, um, like the outline, what am I trying to say?

763
00:57:37.739 --> 00:57:38.579
The pert we outline.

764
00:57:38.940 --> 00:57:39.659
Silhouette.

765
00:57:39.719 --> 00:57:41.219
Silhouette. is the word I'm looking for.

766
00:57:42.059 --> 00:57:48.900
My only problem with that, because I think it could have been perfect, but when I was rewatching it, I was ready to go, wow.

767
00:57:49.260 --> 00:57:52.679
And then it almost looks like they've chopped off his feet.

768
00:57:52.739 --> 00:57:55.380
Like he just looks like he's actually a little bit too short.

769
00:57:56.699 --> 00:58:05.400
It starts off really well and you go, oh yeah, when they do the pan back and then when they have the bit where you actually can't see the photographic image of him.

770
00:58:05.460 --> 00:58:07.079
It's just literally the tunnel.

771
00:58:07.260 --> 00:58:10.260
It just literally looks like they've shortened his outline.

772
00:58:11.340 --> 00:58:13.619
It is a bit squat, they made squat, I think, maybe.

773
00:58:13.619 --> 00:58:15.119
That's the lens they used to shoot.

774
00:58:15.239 --> 00:58:15.840
Yeah, yeah.

775
00:58:15.900 --> 00:58:19.199
They just kind of almost like they've chopped off his feet a little bit and he's a bit too short.

776
00:58:19.920 --> 00:58:26.760
For me, it's the very opening shot, which doesn't make it to the Tom Baker version, which is just the sort of shards of things coming at you.

777
00:58:27.179 --> 00:58:28.440
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

778
00:58:28.619 --> 00:58:29.039
Yeah.

779
00:58:29.099 --> 00:58:31.260
And it is, it is that propulsive forward movement.

780
00:58:31.440 --> 00:58:42.000
And that one of the reasons why I don't like, for instance, that Matt Smith one, which has all sorts of interesting images and the doctor's face and all sorts of good things, is that it doesn't seem to be going anywhere.

781
00:58:43.440 --> 00:58:45.599
That's fascinating because I feel it is going somewhere.

782
00:58:45.780 --> 00:58:52.079
I do get that one of the reasons I do love that one is because I do get the sense of forward motion that I think I felt had been properly missing.

783
00:58:52.320 --> 00:58:54.900
That sort of prefigures the Davison credits.

784
00:58:55.139 --> 00:58:55.559
Yes.

785
00:58:55.619 --> 00:59:12.059
And the other reason I like these credits and love most of the, in fact, I love all of the classic era credits above and beyond virtually all of the 21st century credits is because in most cases, the 21st century credits seem to have been done independently of the music.

786
00:59:12.300 --> 00:59:21.119
Whereas this is another great example with that forward propulsion, with those 1st notes as you get them, you get it the same with Tom's version with the 2 strips of the tunnel that you get at these.

787
00:59:21.179 --> 00:59:22.260
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

788
00:59:22.320 --> 00:59:29.460
And you can even, you know, when you, when, you know, the ABC League logo didn't fade over the top of it too long, you actually saw them arrive and all that kind of stuff.

789
00:59:29.519 --> 00:59:31.980
It was that sense and everything happened to the music.

790
00:59:32.579 --> 00:59:34.500
And I think and these credits.

791
00:59:34.559 --> 00:59:43.019
Well, I mean, it does happen to a certain extent in the black and white credits and the 7 to 10 credits, but this is the 1st time you really get a sense of them working so perfectly together.

792
00:59:43.320 --> 00:59:47.880
One final thing on them for me is there's a fault on the bottom left.

793
00:59:48.000 --> 00:59:50.039
There's a black blob, which is very odd.

794
00:59:50.159 --> 00:59:51.179
That wouldn't be why.

795
00:59:51.239 --> 00:59:51.900
Yes, an artefact.

796
00:59:51.960 --> 00:59:53.579
It like a bit that was covering the split screen.

797
00:59:53.699 --> 00:59:55.320
But it is in Genesis as well.

798
00:59:55.380 --> 00:59:56.340
Like it is in all of those.

799
00:59:56.519 --> 01:00:00.000
No, it's on the Tom. on the purple version of the opening.

800
01:00:00.059 --> 01:00:02.460
It only on the pertwee version of the opening.

801
01:00:02.519 --> 01:00:02.880
Okay.

802
01:00:02.880 --> 01:00:06.119
Look, I'm going to agree a little bit with all of what you're saying.

803
01:00:06.179 --> 01:00:10.800
I do love these credits and I love the fact that they're only on one season. because that makes its own thing.

804
01:00:10.860 --> 01:00:12.420
And I do think they're very well crafted.

805
01:00:12.480 --> 01:00:14.460
I think it's a pretty opening credits.

806
01:00:14.639 --> 01:00:21.599
I think the Tom version is more focussed because you get the TARDIS, which I think is great.

807
01:00:22.320 --> 01:00:32.460
You get Tom earlier, but also it's timed more correctly because in these credits, the Doctor Who logo has barely appeared before you get the name of the story across the top.

808
01:00:32.519 --> 01:00:33.300
He goes over the top of it.

809
01:00:33.480 --> 01:00:34.019
That's right.

810
01:00:34.079 --> 01:00:36.000
Whereas I think they time it better for the Tom version.

811
01:00:36.119 --> 01:00:37.139
No, absolutely fair.

812
01:00:37.199 --> 01:00:41.519
There's just there's something that captures have always forever captured my imagination about these ones.

813
01:00:43.139 --> 01:00:44.099
Okay, all right.

814
01:00:44.159 --> 01:00:44.940
I think that was good.

815
01:00:45.480 --> 01:00:46.380
I think that was good.

816
01:00:46.739 --> 01:00:50.760
Um, uh, we are going to start recording in another fine.

817
01:00:51.840 --> 01:00:52.920
Just a little quick week.

818
01:00:52.980 --> 01:00:54.059
Pay them a quick way.

819
01:00:54.119 --> 01:00:55.380
Thank you for joining us, Fiona.

820
01:00:55.440 --> 01:00:57.659
I will talk I will talk to you.

821
01:00:57.719 --> 01:00:58.500
I'll probably talk to you.

822
01:00:58.739 --> 01:00:59.159
Okay.

823
01:00:59.579 --> 01:00:59.940
Okay.

824
01:01:00.000 --> 01:01:38.699
We'll see how it goes. you In my imagination, I see Terry Nation Writing the same script each time In his mind, a delegation With trant insolation And slaves are made to mine With no imagination.

825
01:01:40.260 --> 01:01:42.780
Here comes Terry Nation.

826
01:01:43.320 --> 01:01:47.519
There's radiation everywhere and space.

827
01:01:49.199 --> 01:01:53.340
Place by halfway through portfolio.

828
01:01:53.699 --> 01:01:55.920
They're cutting through the door.

829
01:01:57.239 --> 01:02:03.000
There's so much you can do It comes in Doctor Who.

830
01:02:04.619 --> 01:02:06.659
We love gerry nation.

831
01:02:06.659 --> 01:02:13.500
My extermination, we love gerry nation.

832
01:02:14.820 --> 01:02:20.519
Yeah We love Jerry Nation.

833
01:02:21.840 --> 01:02:23.760
Call incubation.

834
01:02:25.320 --> 01:02:27.360
We love terri nation.

835
01:02:27.360 --> 01:02:31.860
Here.

836
01:02:31.860 --> 01:02:34.380
It's a crazy situation.

837
01:02:34.380 --> 01:02:37.679
To think of terri nation.

838
01:02:39.239 --> 01:02:48.239
Adding space to every line There'll be darlic, every story.

839
01:02:48.360 --> 01:02:51.900
Oh, tyrant and mock cory.

840
01:02:52.500 --> 01:02:54.780
I'm slid ooh.

841
01:02:59.519 --> 01:03:10.500
There's no imagination And little complication To my beasts My rat and magic chair.

842
01:03:13.679 --> 01:03:26.519
The cores on desperous We're born on Beconos But you can name the thought With just two syllables.

843
01:03:27.900 --> 01:03:33.420
Bel nation Face communication.

844
01:03:34.800 --> 01:03:37.139
With obteration.

845
01:03:38.099 --> 01:03:38.460
Yeah.

846
01:03:38.460 --> 01:03:50.699
We love terri nation, sentient, meditation, belong terri nation.

847
01:03:55.500 --> 01:03:57.599
No imagination.

848
01:03:58.980 --> 01:04:01.199
Here comes terry nation.

849
01:04:01.980 --> 01:04:11.880
And now we realise that all is cliches Or present in each script.

850
01:04:12.840 --> 01:04:22.920
Which is mostly rich. ex masterpand He's dairy, so he can.

851
01:04:22.920 --> 01:04:36.000
We love terri nation, riding, operation.

852
01:04:36.000 --> 01:04:38.280
Yeah.

853
01:04:38.280 --> 01:04:44.460
We love terri nation, thank God.

854
01:04:44.940 --> 01:04:46.440
On rotation.

855
01:04:47.820 --> 01:04:50.099
We love geri nation.

856
01:04:51.119 --> 01:04:51.659
Here.

857
01:04:51.659 --> 01:04:56.880
We love terry nation.

858
01:04:57.360 --> 01:05:20.219
Robert Holmes frustration We love termination. of ter nation Of words, of creation, we love cherish.