WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-09-27 at 19:23:34

1
00:00:34.020 --> 00:00:42.960
Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to 500 Year Diary, the only Doctor Who podcast fully qualified in space literary criticism.

2
00:00:43.740 --> 00:00:44.640
I'm Nathan.

3
00:00:44.939 --> 00:00:45.659
I'm James.

4
00:00:46.140 --> 00:00:46.920
And Jeremy.

5
00:00:47.100 --> 00:00:47.939
And I'm Simon.

6
00:00:48.960 --> 00:00:51.600
It's the 7th of April, 1973.

7
00:00:52.560 --> 00:01:06.239
It's been no less than 375 weeks since we last saw Terry Nation's version of the Daleks on BBC One, and tonight 11000000 people have tuned in to watch that version's triumphant return.

8
00:01:07.439 --> 00:01:13.859
Can Terry Nation soft reboot of the Daleks, recapture the magic of their 1st appearance, nearly 10 years ago?

9
00:01:14.280 --> 00:01:18.180
Let's find out as we discuss Planet of the Daleks.

10
00:01:25.200 --> 00:01:36.000
I think we're going to do what we've been doing for most of these episodes so far, and we'll start by talking about the production before moving on to Terry Nations contribution.

11
00:01:36.120 --> 00:01:50.219
And I just want to say this is one of those pertwee ones where we had read the novelisation over and over again and had a fairly high budget version of it that we created in our own heads.

12
00:01:50.579 --> 00:01:51.180
Oh, dear.

13
00:01:51.180 --> 00:02:01.200
And then when we actually came to see the tiny, tiny planet sets and the tiny, tiny spaceship and things.

14
00:02:02.099 --> 00:02:04.680
I think I was a little bit disappointed.

15
00:02:05.579 --> 00:02:09.419
But I'm not sure that's entirely fair as an assessment of the production.

16
00:02:09.900 --> 00:02:10.740
What do people think?

17
00:02:11.580 --> 00:02:12.659
Actually think it looks pretty good.

18
00:02:13.379 --> 00:02:18.300
I think there's some good direction and I think that Maloney actually gets the Daleks right.

19
00:02:18.719 --> 00:02:21.180
So you've moved up from underwhelmed to whelmed.

20
00:02:21.300 --> 00:02:21.840
A bit.

21
00:02:22.020 --> 00:02:22.620
Yeah, yeah.

22
00:02:23.340 --> 00:02:31.080
Look, my observation is, yes, I agree that I was quite underwhelmed by this story in 1986.

23
00:02:32.219 --> 00:02:50.159
And for the benefit of non-Australian listeners, whilst we'd had a whole lot of repeats of Pertweis up to this point, Planet the Daleks was one of the ones, one of a couple that was always left out because of the black and white episode three, although that didn't stop them showing entire black and white Pertweis before that.

24
00:02:50.580 --> 00:03:01.319
And yes, it's not just the novelisation, but I want to focus on 2 particular images, the cover of the novelisation, where the doctor and Taryn are struggling with the Dalek.

25
00:03:01.500 --> 00:03:16.139
And also there's a photograph of Joe, and I think there's a version with just Joe and the doctor and the version with Joe and some Mythals and the doctor overlooking, it's actually from episode 6 where they're looking into the edge of the great big pit of all the 10s of 1000s of Daleks.

26
00:03:16.259 --> 00:03:22.319
And you sort of wonder, wow, they're spying on something that's going on, you know, the Daleks are plotting and da da da.

27
00:03:22.439 --> 00:03:30.000
And the production is let down by the images that we created as children in our minds built from those 2 images.

28
00:03:30.419 --> 00:03:42.060
But I think I agree with you that it's unfair to have done that because, of course, we've got the 80s budget version and, you know, we're stuck with the sort of 1973 budget version and I think it does actually watching it this time.

29
00:03:42.060 --> 00:03:45.419
My thoughts on it have definitely improved with time.

30
00:03:46.740 --> 00:03:51.360
I think there is judicious use of filming, which I think works really well.

31
00:03:51.419 --> 00:04:02.819
So in the ice corridors and in that shaft, the exhaust shaft thing that the doctor and the files balloon their way up, I think all of that looks really good.

32
00:04:03.180 --> 00:04:13.259
I think that there's a little bit of location footage as well at the plane of stones, which isn't quite as successful, but it still enables them to do.

33
00:04:13.379 --> 00:04:14.159
Well, jarring, I think.

34
00:04:14.219 --> 00:04:20.279
Yeah, it is a bit jarring, but it does enable them to do action in a way that they could never have done in those tiny studio sets.

35
00:04:20.939 --> 00:04:35.160
And I think all of that works really well because this is, and we'll talk about this when we move on and talk about the writing, but this is a story that lives and dies on its set pieces on various action set pieces, I think.

36
00:04:35.699 --> 00:04:38.459
Very much like the original Daleks.

37
00:04:39.360 --> 00:04:48.360
Yeah, and I actually think it looks, one of the things I was really struck by is that jump from the 60s to the 70s when they started recording in different blocks than they used to.

38
00:04:49.139 --> 00:04:56.160
And you can always tell a really good director of Doctor Who versus a not so good one in that how they use that to build sets.

39
00:04:56.220 --> 00:04:58.860
And the thing that blew me away this time watching it, which I never thought about before.

40
00:04:59.399 --> 00:05:00.600
There's a lot of sets.

41
00:05:00.660 --> 00:05:03.180
Like there's a lot of different locations in this one.

42
00:05:03.660 --> 00:05:06.240
And some of them look really, really good for what they are.

43
00:05:07.139 --> 00:05:16.379
And I was thinking about Planet of Evil, which is another David Maloney one later on, which is lauded for its jungle set shot on film, which is totally appropriate.

44
00:05:16.439 --> 00:05:21.660
But as I recall that one, there's a lot of like, we're in the spaceship, we're in the jungle.

45
00:05:21.720 --> 00:05:23.519
We're in the spaceship, we're in the jungle.

46
00:05:23.579 --> 00:05:25.620
We're in the spaceship, and it does get repetitive.

47
00:05:25.980 --> 00:05:29.220
And here they've got like good use of different jungle sets.

48
00:05:29.579 --> 00:05:34.920
They've got that big entrance way to the spear on caves, which actually looks pretty impressive.

49
00:05:35.519 --> 00:05:38.339
They've got where the Daleks are working in their command place.

50
00:05:38.399 --> 00:05:39.600
Then they've got the refrigerator.

51
00:05:39.660 --> 00:05:51.600
So they have all of these different locations that somehow they've managed to really make, I think, work about as well as you can with about $one.95 to get it done and the time that they have to get it done.

52
00:05:51.779 --> 00:05:53.519
I actually thought it looked pretty good this time around.

53
00:05:54.000 --> 00:05:55.439
They fitted a lot into that studio.

54
00:05:56.220 --> 00:05:57.240
A lot into it.

55
00:05:58.319 --> 00:06:06.240
I think, though, that we are once again confronted with the reality that to do a successful jungle in a studio is incredibly challenging.

56
00:06:06.300 --> 00:06:11.759
Like those bits of Planet of Evil are so much better, the bits that are on film compared to the bits that are in the studio.

57
00:06:12.000 --> 00:06:18.000
You know, I was really wanting a part of this jungle set to have been done in on film.

58
00:06:18.360 --> 00:06:24.240
They do the ice tunnels and the ballooning thing instead, very sensible, of course, and they're impressive.

59
00:06:24.300 --> 00:06:29.759
But it just, it's just like whether it's this, whether it's, you know, Planet of Evil, whether it's face of evil.

60
00:06:29.939 --> 00:06:33.779
It's just, it just, it is always a letdown.

61
00:06:34.980 --> 00:06:52.019
Although I have to think that Kemble is actually pretty great, that somehow, and I don't know what it is, but that Campbell, in the hands of Douglas Campfield, in the Daleks Master Plan, does look pretty great, certainly the sets look better than they do here.

62
00:06:52.860 --> 00:06:54.899
I don't think that's just because it's black and white.

63
00:06:54.959 --> 00:06:56.160
Like, it's shot differently.

64
00:06:56.220 --> 00:06:57.660
Like it's shot from different angles.

65
00:06:57.720 --> 00:06:59.639
I think you see too much flaw in this.

66
00:07:00.180 --> 00:07:01.680
There's quite a bit of flaw.

67
00:07:01.800 --> 00:07:04.319
Yes, which is surprising for David Maloney, actually.

68
00:07:04.379 --> 00:07:04.980
Very surprising.

69
00:07:05.519 --> 00:07:16.740
And occasionally it's reasonably well covered with, you know, gravel or something to make it look a little like it's outside, but often you just see the, like the bare, painted green.

70
00:07:17.100 --> 00:07:17.519
Yeah.

71
00:07:17.519 --> 00:07:26.160
And funnily enough, the worst example of that is the very end where, you know, the doctor and Joe suddenly have to rush back to the Tartars and the Daleks are chasing them.

72
00:07:26.220 --> 00:07:30.839
And that's the most egregious amount of studio floor that I think you see.

73
00:07:31.560 --> 00:07:32.699
That's pretty bad, that's hard.

74
00:07:33.480 --> 00:07:34.439
They had to get around.

75
00:07:34.500 --> 00:07:35.819
They laid down boards all over the planet.

76
00:07:36.839 --> 00:07:49.740
My favourite bit that indicates just how tiny the studios are is the moment where I think it's sort of lartep and Joe kind of meet for the 1st time and Joe has to take lartep to get the bombs.

77
00:07:51.300 --> 00:07:57.120
She literally walks 2 steps and says, and they're here and then she picks it up off the floor.

78
00:07:57.240 --> 00:07:58.019
Let me help you.

79
00:07:58.199 --> 00:07:58.920
There they are.

80
00:08:01.560 --> 00:08:04.259
That is, I'll use the word egregious.

81
00:08:04.319 --> 00:08:10.079
But also, can I say that that is a very odd thing to have happened in the hands of David Maloney.

82
00:08:10.319 --> 00:08:23.519
Something has gone wrong there in terms of something hasn't arrived or something hasn't turned up the way they thought it was going to, and it's just odd, and I'm surprised someone like him didn't fix it, like say, saying, oh, can we just cut this line and move on?

83
00:08:24.000 --> 00:08:25.019
It's very heart and all.

84
00:08:25.079 --> 00:08:26.759
It's the kind of thing you see in heartless stories.

85
00:08:28.680 --> 00:08:48.480
One of my favourite things I saw was the 70s really working to help the story in that when Joe is hiding behind some like beige grass and the dollics are looking for her, because she's wearing that brown coat and she's got her blonde hair and it's so 70s, she actually did, I was like, wow, it's not just hiding in plain sight, like we've seen so many dollic things.

86
00:08:48.600 --> 00:08:50.700
I actually was like, is Joe Oh there she is.

87
00:08:50.759 --> 00:08:52.019
It was kind of a where's Wally moment.

88
00:08:52.379 --> 00:08:54.299
I was like, oh, thank God for the 70s.

89
00:08:54.360 --> 00:08:56.220
You know, we just, we begged it all up and it worked.

90
00:08:56.639 --> 00:08:59.039
It's little known fact that dogs can't see beige.

91
00:09:00.179 --> 00:09:04.559
The entire style expedition is invisible to them.

92
00:09:04.620 --> 00:09:04.860
Yeah.

93
00:09:05.159 --> 00:09:05.639
Yes.

94
00:09:20.580 --> 00:09:31.080
The other thing that I think really was shockingly bad was the, um, I think the cassette tape log is perhaps the worst prop in Doctor Who history.

95
00:09:31.139 --> 00:09:32.700
It's pretty dire.

96
00:09:33.419 --> 00:09:36.059
You know, it's lame.

97
00:09:36.120 --> 00:09:40.139
Weren't cassette tapes like cutting edge barely available, but is at this point?

98
00:09:40.200 --> 00:09:41.399
That would have been my goodness.

99
00:09:41.460 --> 00:09:43.019
They would have been big reels, real school.

100
00:09:44.279 --> 00:09:45.600
It's still pretty lame looking.

101
00:09:45.659 --> 00:09:46.559
It just looks dinky.

102
00:09:46.620 --> 00:09:50.039
It just looks just the fact that it falls apart in his hand when he's trying to casket.

103
00:09:51.720 --> 00:09:54.360
You know, it's got a circuit board stuck inside it.

104
00:09:54.419 --> 00:09:55.799
No, it's got tiny reels.

105
00:09:55.860 --> 00:09:56.639
It's got little reels.

106
00:09:56.759 --> 00:09:57.659
It's tiny drills.

107
00:09:58.500 --> 00:09:59.340
It's just...

108
00:09:59.340 --> 00:10:01.799
Yep, it's not my favourite.

109
00:10:01.860 --> 00:10:04.259
I was like, and this might be the wiggiest.

110
00:10:04.320 --> 00:10:06.360
Is this a pretty wiggy production.

111
00:10:06.779 --> 00:10:13.200
The use of wigs. difficult to tell because it's difficult to tell because, you know, the hair at that time was that size.

112
00:10:13.259 --> 00:10:20.700
So, you know, Joe's hair obviously goes terribly flat and lifeless on location.

113
00:10:21.299 --> 00:10:26.100
And I just think it's clearly the atmosphere around the plane of stones that's causing it to happen.

114
00:10:26.279 --> 00:10:26.940
Usually humid.

115
00:10:26.940 --> 00:10:27.659
Yeah, yeah.

116
00:10:27.720 --> 00:10:29.940
She has her hugest hair, I think, here.

117
00:10:30.059 --> 00:10:31.559
And she does look pretty great.

118
00:10:32.039 --> 00:10:32.580
She does.

119
00:10:32.580 --> 00:10:40.019
And of course, you have all of the files who are all blonde, so they're managing to keep that up, apparently, just 1000s of years in the future.

120
00:10:41.759 --> 00:10:42.419
Bless them.

121
00:10:43.500 --> 00:10:45.120
We can still find peroxide.

122
00:10:45.179 --> 00:10:45.899
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

123
00:10:46.200 --> 00:10:48.419
It's naturally occurring on that dead planet.

124
00:10:48.600 --> 00:10:49.080
Yeah.

125
00:10:49.139 --> 00:10:52.980
Well, maybe there's someone back on Skara saying we must keep the thull.

126
00:10:55.080 --> 00:11:02.220
If I can say something about the production, which is a little bit curious and disappointing, is the Dalek City.

127
00:11:02.279 --> 00:11:10.440
And I think what we're missing that we get in the Daleks and a couple of other Dalek stories is that the Dalek City is Dalekite.

128
00:11:10.679 --> 00:11:13.139
Whereas this city is John Pershwin Height.

129
00:11:13.500 --> 00:11:22.440
And that's the thing that I think one of the things that makes the imagery of the Daleks so effective is that terribly claustrophobic set, which oddly enough would suit a small studio space.

130
00:11:22.500 --> 00:11:26.159
Whereas here it's all normal person height, and I think that's unfortunate.

131
00:11:26.220 --> 00:11:26.460
Yeah.

132
00:11:26.700 --> 00:11:39.360
I mean, I think probably they thought at the time we're going to improve on the sets of 10 years ago and make them bigger and then they've missed what it was that was good about the original.

133
00:11:39.600 --> 00:11:46.740
I don't think that was even taken into consideration because, A, they're not going to be bringing up prints because where the hell are they?

134
00:11:47.159 --> 00:11:50.279
B, there might be some photos, but where the hell are they?

135
00:11:50.399 --> 00:11:53.399
It's just something that was just lost in the mists of time by then.

136
00:11:54.179 --> 00:11:57.120
It just doesn't read as if it's the same building.

137
00:11:57.480 --> 00:12:03.840
You know, you've got the big stone doorway to the caves and then inside is just a Dalek base.

138
00:12:04.320 --> 00:12:10.919
It would have been more interesting if they kind of were inhabiting the space of...

139
00:12:10.980 --> 00:12:13.379
If it had been like an ancient spirad on temple.

140
00:12:13.860 --> 00:12:20.639
Yeah, like they're wandering around in this sort of stone caves with bits of technology grafted into them because they'd taken them over.

141
00:12:20.700 --> 00:12:22.139
But probably be on the budget.

142
00:12:22.440 --> 00:12:24.299
I think that's what they would do now for sure.

143
00:12:25.320 --> 00:12:27.419
It's weird that they don't do it here.

144
00:12:27.480 --> 00:12:28.080
I agree.

145
00:12:28.139 --> 00:12:29.639
It's like you've got all those ruins.

146
00:12:29.700 --> 00:12:30.779
It's just very, it's a little weird.

147
00:12:31.019 --> 00:12:32.580
They probably just would have gone to Wookie Hole.

148
00:12:33.600 --> 00:12:39.360
I mean, I think they want the dialects to be in space corridors because that's kind of a natural habitat of the Daleks.

149
00:12:39.480 --> 00:13:05.820
And because you have a contrast between the Dalek space corridors and the jungle, which they're inhabiting, and that's the same contrast that you get in the Daleks, which this is, in many ways, just a remake of, and like, I don't think that's a bad thing, but we've been observing over the last few weeks that those 60s Dalek stories each open out.

150
00:13:06.179 --> 00:13:10.919
Like they each have a bigger scale and a bigger scope, each one than the previous one.

151
00:13:10.980 --> 00:13:17.460
So, you know, we go from the jungle planet, in the distant future, probably, who even knows.

152
00:13:18.000 --> 00:13:32.279
Then you go to them invading Earth, then you go to the Daleks, kind of threatening to take over the entire premise of the TV show, and then you get the massive galaxy spanning absurd space opera.

153
00:13:32.759 --> 00:13:45.179
And when Whitaker takes it over, he does completely different things with it, and he's really successful, we've already talked about Power of the Daleks, which I think has a strong claim to be the best dialect story.

154
00:13:45.179 --> 00:13:49.200
But now we're back to like the stuff from 1963.

155
00:13:50.039 --> 00:13:53.519
And I can see why Terry wanted to do that.

156
00:13:54.539 --> 00:13:57.600
It's a little bit like Strange New Worlds doing a holiday episode.

157
00:13:57.659 --> 00:13:59.759
It's kind of like it's now many years later.

158
00:14:00.000 --> 00:14:03.480
Let's see what a holiday episode looks like in 2025.

159
00:14:04.440 --> 00:14:10.379
And here this is like, what does the Daleks look like if we're making it in 1973.

160
00:14:11.700 --> 00:14:17.759
And there are things that are not as good, and obviously the Darlet corridors are one of those things.

161
00:14:18.419 --> 00:14:22.200
But there are things, I think, that it manages to do considerably better.

162
00:14:22.740 --> 00:14:23.340
Such as?

163
00:14:23.820 --> 00:14:25.019
I think the action's better.

164
00:14:25.259 --> 00:14:26.700
I do think the action's better.

165
00:14:26.759 --> 00:14:31.019
Like if you compare the balloon escape to the elevator escape, right?

166
00:14:31.080 --> 00:14:40.679
That the ice corridor travails in the 1st cereal versus the corridors here, I think there's no question it's directed better and it's actually structured better.

167
00:14:40.740 --> 00:14:42.779
Like, they have a better idea of what they're good at.

168
00:14:43.259 --> 00:14:43.860
For sure.

169
00:14:44.519 --> 00:14:54.779
I think that the original is directed as well by Christopher Barry, the Christopher Barry episodes, particularly, are directed as well as a 60 story can be directed in the confines.

170
00:14:54.840 --> 00:15:02.639
I think it's made better because, you know, they can do so much more, as you're sort of saying, but I think that broadly speaking, it does bring the excitement levels up.

171
00:15:02.700 --> 00:15:07.559
The exception for me being most of episode one and the back end of episode six.

172
00:15:07.620 --> 00:15:12.840
Like, it's kind of like, it takes a while for the story to get going, which is actually a very heart and more thing when you think about it.

173
00:15:12.899 --> 00:15:16.740
And I think Terry is still writing a Heartnell story, which I think he continues to do in Death of the Daleks.

174
00:15:16.799 --> 00:15:36.360
And I think even in Genesis of the Daleks, it's still somewhat writing a Hartnell story in that you get the, you discover the planet, the environment, through the eyes of the regulars, you don't cut away after the 1st scene to hear all the alien people having their conversations in rooms and so on.

175
00:15:36.419 --> 00:15:40.200
And so we decided, get to know them before the doctor and company meet them.

176
00:15:40.259 --> 00:15:43.980
We meet them through the doctor and Joe, like you do in a heart little story.

177
00:15:44.039 --> 00:15:54.720
But I think it does achieve much more, and I think it does get the excitement level going quite a lot, and obviously the action's better because it's very difficult for them to do it when they were doing action back in the very, very start of the show.

178
00:15:54.779 --> 00:15:56.460
It was very hard to do actually in the studio.

179
00:15:56.820 --> 00:15:58.620
But given that that's what Terry wants to do.

180
00:15:58.679 --> 00:16:12.360
And we said in our Daleks episode that in fact, you know, the things like calling the, calling the episodes things like the expedition the ordeal and so on, indicates that for Terry Nation, the focus is these action sent pieces.

181
00:16:12.899 --> 00:16:15.419
And they're done much better.

182
00:16:15.480 --> 00:16:20.700
And even, like I still find per 26 partners, a little bit of a challenge.

183
00:16:20.700 --> 00:16:24.720
And I did watch this in 2 goes.

184
00:16:25.200 --> 00:16:33.899
And I wasn't bored in the way that I was bored rigid by, say, the ordeal, which I think is the worst episode of the Daleks.

185
00:16:34.740 --> 00:16:47.700
But what we do lose, and I think it's the thing that we lose almost immediately that never really comes back after the Daleks, is the weird sound that we have in the Daleks, like the sound, I think, is extraordinary.

186
00:16:48.059 --> 00:17:00.179
The sound is good here in places, but, you know, it doesn't compare to the sound of the dalek city towards the end of episode one of the daleks and the design of the daleks.

187
00:17:00.240 --> 00:17:07.200
The miniatures, you know, what the city looked like from the outside, and what those space corridors look like from the inside.

188
00:17:07.259 --> 00:17:09.720
I think that that was amazing.

189
00:17:09.779 --> 00:17:14.099
And I think that that's moving into the sort of realms of art.

190
00:17:14.160 --> 00:17:17.099
Like it is beautifully designed and directed.

191
00:17:17.460 --> 00:17:25.680
This is doing a job, but it doesn't aspire to be quite as interesting looking, I think, as the dialects did, quite as weird.

192
00:17:25.980 --> 00:17:36.059
I mean, this is presenting something that is now 10 years old that is familiar to everyone in the audience and kind of showing us where it was good and for Terry Nation.

193
00:17:36.180 --> 00:17:44.819
He's not doing the images, particularly, he's writing a script and that script is full of action set pieces, that I think actually managed to mostly work.

194
00:17:45.660 --> 00:17:50.160
Whereas the ones in the back end of the Daleks are a bit of an ordeal, I guess.

195
00:17:50.640 --> 00:17:54.839
So it had individual episode titles, what would we call them?

196
00:17:55.140 --> 00:17:55.920
The coma?

197
00:17:56.400 --> 00:17:57.240
Oh, my God.

198
00:17:57.240 --> 00:17:59.519
Fascinating.

199
00:18:00.059 --> 00:18:06.119
One of my 1st notes I wrote was the doctor saying, I'm suffocating, but by God, if I suffocate, it'll be in purple.

200
00:18:06.839 --> 00:18:09.240
He chooses the weirdest time to change his clothes.

201
00:18:10.559 --> 00:18:11.819
I love I love that.

202
00:18:13.500 --> 00:18:19.920
He's running out of air and he goes and changes from that natty green number into the sort of plush purple outfit.

203
00:18:20.819 --> 00:18:23.039
I mean, it is a gorgeous outfit.

204
00:18:23.160 --> 00:18:25.200
Like, don't get, he looks...

205
00:18:25.200 --> 00:18:27.299
John Perti looks spectacular throughout.

206
00:18:27.539 --> 00:18:31.200
I think he's probably rarely looked better than he does in this one.

207
00:18:31.680 --> 00:18:33.000
His dressing for the occasion.

208
00:18:33.720 --> 00:18:39.660
It is always a little bit rough on Blu-ray just to see quite how much slap he's got on.

209
00:18:41.099 --> 00:18:42.779
There's a lot of foundation.

210
00:18:45.240 --> 00:18:58.680
But it is funny that costs a gym change thing because it's the sort of scene that you get inserted because they'd already done the location, work in a different costume and suddenly realise, oh gosh, he's only in the green thing at the beginning of the scene.

211
00:18:58.799 --> 00:18:59.460
How we going to fix this?

212
00:18:59.640 --> 00:19:00.240
Yeah, yeah.

213
00:19:00.240 --> 00:19:04.859
Because it doesn't make any story since he already knows that the oxygen's running out there, as you say.

214
00:19:05.279 --> 00:19:06.720
But first, I watch change.

215
00:19:06.839 --> 00:19:15.539
In a couple of weeks, Sarah will stop and change into camouflage gear. in order to sort of make the transition from one story to another as well.

216
00:19:16.019 --> 00:19:17.460
So it is a thing.

217
00:19:17.880 --> 00:19:20.099
I think what's really super weird about that.

218
00:19:20.460 --> 00:19:32.759
I think that 1st episode, it is slow and it is obviously working because we've established that the Daleks appear at the Cliffhanger to episode one, that that's part of the deal.

219
00:19:32.819 --> 00:19:34.259
That's how these stories work.

220
00:19:34.319 --> 00:19:36.480
So we can't see the Daleks until then.

221
00:19:37.019 --> 00:19:50.460
And so getting to know a subset of the Thyle characters, which again, I think is really good structure, the way that we get a whole extra expedition coming along in episode two, after we've had the chance to meet Codal Weber and Taron.

222
00:19:50.640 --> 00:20:00.299
And I think all of that thing of Joe exploring, I think, giving Joe the chance to sort of go out and do something, and she fails, but she doesn't seem pathetic.

223
00:20:00.359 --> 00:20:03.779
There is an issue, I think, around how this story treats women.

224
00:20:04.559 --> 00:20:18.299
But that bit where Joe gets to be the person telling the story and the person going out and doing something, it's a little bit, I guess, like Susan going out into the forest in the Daleks to get the radiation pills or whatever the hell she thinks she's doing.

225
00:20:18.599 --> 00:20:19.799
But she doesn't fail.

226
00:20:20.099 --> 00:20:23.940
I mean, you know, you know, a bad thing happens to her and all of that sort of thing.

227
00:20:24.180 --> 00:20:27.000
But I do think that that actually largely works.

228
00:20:27.059 --> 00:20:30.359
And I actually found that 1st episode pretty engaging surprisingly.

229
00:20:30.900 --> 00:20:33.900
I think Katie Manning as an actor, so really good at curiosity.

230
00:20:34.079 --> 00:20:38.400
Like, she's always really good at being kind of engaged with what's going on around her.

231
00:20:38.460 --> 00:20:42.299
And poor Susan was just told to be petrified and panicky about everything.

232
00:20:42.900 --> 00:20:50.099
But I think one of the things that makes Joe so great is, I mean, they would probably in a very sexist way call it plucky, but it's more than that.

233
00:20:50.160 --> 00:20:54.900
It's like a curiosity and an engagement in the circumstances.

234
00:20:54.960 --> 00:21:02.220
And so you kind of, she's really good at making you as the audience kind of want to go with her and be with her and be on her side.

235
00:21:02.279 --> 00:21:05.220
And I think that's a, They're really lucky.

236
00:21:05.279 --> 00:21:15.779
I think Terry Nation was really lucky because in the hands of a different companion, that could have been interminable, but with her, you really feel like, she may she may screw it up, but she's going to try to figure it out. and you trust her.

237
00:21:16.200 --> 00:21:18.839
I think it's a template of companion that basically begins.

238
00:21:18.900 --> 00:21:27.240
I think perhaps with Zoe, uh, because the girls before that are kind of a bit rubbish apart from Vicky and um, Barbara in their own ways.

239
00:21:27.299 --> 00:21:34.980
But from Zoe onwards, they have a lot more agency and you know, Liz has it, well, they just haven't much time to develop it.

240
00:21:35.039 --> 00:21:40.019
Joe certainly has it. get it with get it with Leila and then you get it with Romanas and onwards from there.

241
00:21:40.079 --> 00:21:43.559
There's a bit of a regression with some of the 80 early 80s companions.

242
00:21:43.619 --> 00:21:55.680
But yeah, having her do all that and be curious about it, be interested about not wandering around like Susan is absolutely petrified looking petrified the entire time, which is just tedious.

243
00:21:56.220 --> 00:22:01.740
Joe is actually discovering things whilst being cautious and a bit afraid and all the rest of it.

244
00:22:01.920 --> 00:22:04.019
But yeah, episode one, Nathan.

245
00:22:04.079 --> 00:22:16.920
I have to say that was actually the beginning of my disappointment when I was watching it in 86 when it was on, and I had so much expectation for it, and that expectation was almost utterly annihilated in the watching of episode one.

246
00:22:17.579 --> 00:22:32.519
I actually think the big disappointing moment for me is episode 2 because I remember the destruction of the Thal shuttlecraft where Terence Styx describes it as glowing cherry red and then exploding.

247
00:22:32.579 --> 00:22:36.000
And I can't imagine that I'd ever heard the expression cherry red before.

248
00:22:36.299 --> 00:22:38.519
And I just thought, that is so vivid.

249
00:22:38.579 --> 00:22:39.599
That's going to look great.

250
00:22:39.779 --> 00:22:42.420
And then, of course, it's pretty terrible.

251
00:22:44.640 --> 00:22:47.039
Disappointingly, they don't fix that in the special edition.

252
00:22:47.220 --> 00:22:48.059
Yeah, it's weird.

253
00:22:48.119 --> 00:22:49.680
And that spaceship's pretty bad all the way around.

254
00:22:49.740 --> 00:22:51.180
It shakes like crazy.

255
00:22:51.240 --> 00:22:52.559
I don't know.

256
00:22:52.619 --> 00:22:53.460
I don't know what that is.

257
00:22:53.519 --> 00:23:01.019
I don't know how to feel about that because, I mean, you know, the advantage of it shaking is that it does at least feel like it's not just a built part of the set.

258
00:23:01.079 --> 00:23:06.359
You know, it does feel like it's a box that's kind of landed in the set. and badly it's crashed.

259
00:23:06.420 --> 00:23:07.079
Yeah, yeah.

260
00:23:07.140 --> 00:23:09.960
But it is it is a little bit rough.

261
00:23:10.079 --> 00:23:17.819
And then, and then you've got Paul Wester who is being realised with various sort of yellow fringed physical objects.

262
00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:19.799
I think they actually CG eat all of those.

263
00:23:19.859 --> 00:23:21.779
Like they're not just redone.

264
00:23:21.839 --> 00:23:23.160
They'd CG the scenes.

265
00:23:23.220 --> 00:23:29.819
Like most of those scenes don't have other people in them, so they just got a steal photo and then did CGI versions.

266
00:23:29.880 --> 00:23:31.319
Yeah, I think that's right.

267
00:23:31.619 --> 00:23:32.940
My favourite thing about Westerns.

268
00:23:33.240 --> 00:23:37.619
When he's helping Joe, and he's invisible, but they want the audience to still know he's there.

269
00:23:37.680 --> 00:23:50.700
So they've given him a stick to hold on to for various points, which kind of defeats the purpose of having an invisible companion, you know, hiding you because there's people just be like, why is Joe there with a stick floating mixture?

270
00:23:50.759 --> 00:23:51.480
It's very weird.

271
00:23:52.440 --> 00:23:56.940
It's this great line in reference to that when Joe and the doctor made back up against it.

272
00:23:56.940 --> 00:23:58.319
And then I was saved by a bull.

273
00:24:09.839 --> 00:24:12.420
Let's talk about the Thal characters.

274
00:24:12.839 --> 00:24:18.240
So, we have Bernard Horsville, who David Maloney seems to like casting quite a lot.

275
00:24:19.019 --> 00:24:24.119
Yeah, we have Penters Hancock, as Weber, and Tim Priest's curdle.

276
00:24:24.180 --> 00:24:32.279
Yeah, and like, I actually think that, you know, Terry Nation doesn't create vivid and memorable characters in the Daleks.

277
00:24:32.339 --> 00:24:38.400
Like there's Dione and Ganitis and all of that, but none of them are super memorable.

278
00:24:38.579 --> 00:24:46.140
Here, though, I think Taryn and Weber and Kodal are all really kind of well drawn.

279
00:24:46.319 --> 00:24:51.960
And Prentice Hancock is kind of the right actor because he's so massively unlikeable.

280
00:24:52.140 --> 00:24:55.740
He's an excellent choice to play Weber, I think.

281
00:24:56.039 --> 00:25:05.940
And we do actually get, you know, that conflict between Taryn and Weber, which flares up in episode 2 and then is diffused by the arrival of the 2nd expedition.

282
00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:13.140
And then there's a moment of apology, and it sort of goes down, and then it flares up again when we're at the plane of stones a little bit later on.

283
00:25:13.140 --> 00:25:14.880
And it actually creates peril.

284
00:25:14.940 --> 00:25:16.920
It gives us another thing that we need to do.

285
00:25:16.980 --> 00:25:19.079
You know, it becomes an important part of the plot.

286
00:25:19.200 --> 00:25:24.900
We need to go and get Weber and the bombs that creates, you know, an action sequence and stuff like that.

287
00:25:25.559 --> 00:25:29.039
Like, I think they're all really actually quite good.

288
00:25:30.059 --> 00:25:32.400
I have to disagree quite violently.

289
00:25:32.759 --> 00:25:33.420
Oh wow.

290
00:25:33.900 --> 00:25:40.140
I feel they are like, I mean, whilst I like various ones and various actors.

291
00:25:40.200 --> 00:25:44.700
I'm liking the actors more than the characters because the characters are not even a paragraph.

292
00:25:45.660 --> 00:25:51.420
They are purely functional to create, you know, the initial trio that you've got.

293
00:25:51.480 --> 00:26:01.980
You've got the, you know, the noble and cautious leader, you've got the rebellious and headstrong, um, Weber, and then you've got the more thoughtful and quiet, nerdy curdle.

294
00:26:02.039 --> 00:26:04.140
You know, they all just fit that.

295
00:26:04.140 --> 00:26:14.519
And, and, and I, I'm sorry, but Prentice Hancock is probably my least favourite Doctor Who actor in the entire run of the show by a substantial margin.

296
00:26:14.700 --> 00:26:22.140
He has the same performance ticks in every story he's in as Salamar in Planet of Evil.

297
00:26:22.200 --> 00:26:23.099
He is dreadful.

298
00:26:23.700 --> 00:26:25.799
In this, he is annoying.

299
00:26:25.980 --> 00:26:30.779
It's also one dimensional. and the way he kind of holds his mouth when he's, you know, making one of those serious points.

300
00:26:30.839 --> 00:26:31.859
It's not even acting.

301
00:26:31.920 --> 00:26:36.359
It's like you're watching a school production of something and he's the bad guy.

302
00:26:36.960 --> 00:26:43.140
You know, I mean, I don't, I didn't watch space 1999, so I don't, I don't know what he's like there, but I believe he has a moustache in that.

303
00:26:43.200 --> 00:26:48.119
So that's an equally egregious sin, regardless of what his performance is in that.

304
00:26:48.299 --> 00:26:49.680
So, but, yeah.

305
00:26:51.480 --> 00:26:56.400
And then the others arrive and Rebeck is obviously the kind of, to some extent, the damn...

306
00:26:56.460 --> 00:26:57.119
She's the woman.

307
00:26:57.119 --> 00:26:58.799
She shouldn't have come, you know.

308
00:26:58.859 --> 00:26:59.819
She shouldn't have come.

309
00:26:59.819 --> 00:27:00.839
She shouldn't have come.

310
00:27:00.900 --> 00:27:01.980
No, she shouldn't have come.

311
00:27:02.039 --> 00:27:05.519
But not because she's a girl because she's Taryn's girlfriend or wife.

312
00:27:05.579 --> 00:27:07.500
You know, that's that's why she shouldn't have come.

313
00:27:07.559 --> 00:27:15.599
But she's playing the damn cell in distress, although she has got some excellent Doctor Who acting, especially at the end of part 3 with Doctor, It's not going to work.

314
00:27:16.680 --> 00:27:19.079
Absolutely, for me, sells that cliffhanger.

315
00:27:19.140 --> 00:27:20.819
So she gets full marks from my point of view.

316
00:27:21.359 --> 00:27:23.339
Marritt is basically...

317
00:27:23.339 --> 00:27:24.960
Which is a space philosophy to die.

318
00:27:25.319 --> 00:27:32.640
Um, and he's, he's in Genesis of the Darling extent, you know, as the guy who dangles Sarah off, um, uh, the, the top.

319
00:27:32.700 --> 00:27:33.539
Is he the one who says right?

320
00:27:33.720 --> 00:27:35.400
Come on back down now or something.

321
00:27:35.460 --> 00:27:36.539
Is that that guy?

322
00:27:36.599 --> 00:27:37.500
Come on back down.

323
00:27:37.859 --> 00:27:38.819
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

324
00:27:39.180 --> 00:27:43.559
And um, and then he's also, um, the, the general in LOL.

325
00:27:43.619 --> 00:27:43.980
Oh yes.

326
00:27:44.279 --> 00:27:44.940
There you go.

327
00:27:45.000 --> 00:27:47.220
So he's just a space filler, obviously fine, whatever.

328
00:27:47.279 --> 00:27:50.460
And, but I, I've always liked um, uh, last hip.

329
00:27:51.059 --> 00:27:56.880
I always thought, you know, my 14 year old loins were kind of feeling something there.

330
00:27:56.940 --> 00:27:58.440
I thought he was quite pretty.

331
00:27:58.440 --> 00:28:00.180
And I was a little bit disappointed.

332
00:28:00.240 --> 00:28:02.700
I thought he was prettier than Cliff, for instance.

333
00:28:03.059 --> 00:28:03.599
Oh, yes.

334
00:28:03.599 --> 00:28:05.400
I always thought that Jack, yes.

335
00:28:05.940 --> 00:28:10.980
But anyway, the point being that they are all just plot functions.

336
00:28:11.160 --> 00:28:13.799
I mean, I enjoy the characters in the Daleks.

337
00:28:13.859 --> 00:28:17.579
I like Ganitis, for instance, I think he's interesting and there's a bit going on there.

338
00:28:17.640 --> 00:28:24.720
But you know, I mean, Terry Nation is never known for his interesting characters until basically you get to Genesis of the Daleks, where you've got some fabulous ones.

339
00:28:24.839 --> 00:28:27.839
In case of horribly blonde 2, electric boogaloo for you.

340
00:28:28.559 --> 00:28:31.319
You're not allowed to do an electric boogaloo joke again, no.

341
00:28:37.500 --> 00:28:40.980
Look, I mean, I have to say that that's fair.

342
00:28:41.400 --> 00:28:50.039
But what I do think is that because interrogation's not trying to write interesting characters and failing, he just doesn't want to do that.

343
00:28:50.099 --> 00:29:02.640
But what he does do is he creates fairly programmatic characters and we know how they're going to behave and they interact in a way that drives the plot along and I think that gives us a couple of good moments for pertry as well.

344
00:29:02.700 --> 00:29:07.559
So I think Pertuy and Kodal, in the lift, that's a really great scene.

345
00:29:07.859 --> 00:29:09.960
It works really well in the novelisation as well.

346
00:29:10.019 --> 00:29:11.099
Super memorable.

347
00:29:11.160 --> 00:29:13.440
All that stuff about courage and what courage is.

348
00:29:13.799 --> 00:29:15.059
I think is really great.

349
00:29:15.359 --> 00:29:17.640
And I think the tail end.

350
00:29:17.700 --> 00:29:34.740
In fact, that scene where Kodal says goodbye to the doctor and thanks him, which is pretty unusual, you know, like having a character arc for someone in a terriation story where they grow and learn something and then they reflect on that episodes later.

351
00:29:35.039 --> 00:29:36.059
I think that's pretty good.

352
00:29:37.380 --> 00:29:41.880
That's pretty good, but I just counter slash add to that to what I was saying before.

353
00:29:41.940 --> 00:29:42.660
It's the performance.

354
00:29:42.720 --> 00:29:45.480
I think it's what Tim Price is doing in the performance there.

355
00:29:45.599 --> 00:29:48.359
You see it in his face, you see it in the way he shakes his head.

356
00:29:48.420 --> 00:29:54.480
It's like, you have helped me, and I think that is far more than, he's done something with the lines he was given there.

357
00:29:55.019 --> 00:30:03.240
Yeah, I think he's probably the most, not realistic because he's a Doctor Who story, but the most embodying of his character as an actor in this story.

358
00:30:03.420 --> 00:30:04.319
Yes, he is actually.

359
00:30:04.799 --> 00:30:07.380
I also think too, the other thing that works really well.

360
00:30:07.440 --> 00:30:23.940
And strikes me as a bit of an apology for the Daleks, because I thought that, you know, whenever Doctor Who does the, these people are pacifists thing and that's utterly unreasonable, and what about if I was to come along and threaten your woman?

361
00:30:24.359 --> 00:30:29.940
You know, like, like, all of that is kind of, that's kind of a bit unfortunate.

362
00:30:30.480 --> 00:30:32.579
Watching Ian goad that guy.

363
00:30:33.599 --> 00:30:36.119
Yeah, going Aladon into attacking.

364
00:30:36.480 --> 00:30:39.779
Like that's not fun and it's not pleasant.

365
00:30:39.839 --> 00:30:46.440
But you can see why it's happening in 1963 with World War 2 being sort of a fairly present memory.

366
00:30:46.440 --> 00:31:00.539
And, you know, the need to stand up and fight against evil is super pressing and all of that. and so we make that point Here, what I really like is that scene at the end, which is surprising.

367
00:31:00.960 --> 00:31:08.279
And I found it actually quite affecting where the doctor congratulates the thal for being a peace loving people.

368
00:31:08.700 --> 00:31:11.160
Like, the tharls are a peace loving people.

369
00:31:11.160 --> 00:31:13.079
And the doctor says, that's great.

370
00:31:13.259 --> 00:31:14.640
You know, good for you.

371
00:31:14.700 --> 00:31:15.480
Don't forget that.

372
00:31:16.319 --> 00:31:16.920
Keep that.

373
00:31:17.220 --> 00:31:18.720
When you tell this story.

374
00:31:19.079 --> 00:31:35.880
And again, it just seems like, again, looking back on World War 2, but from, you know, 10 years on, where what we remember isn't the triumph of conquest, but the people that we lost and the people that came back affected by it.

375
00:31:36.299 --> 00:31:44.220
And I thought that was surprisingly grounded and interesting and almost like an apology for the Talax.

376
00:31:44.640 --> 00:31:46.859
Remember, Vietnam has happened in the interim.

377
00:31:47.220 --> 00:31:57.900
But although Britain wasn't really involved in Vietnam in the same way that the US and Australia were, but nevertheless, they got all the media, they knew what was going on and the kind of the futility.

378
00:31:58.319 --> 00:32:05.460
Vietnam spoke to the futility of war, whereas World War 2 was more of a kind of a good versus evil kind of thing.

379
00:32:06.420 --> 00:32:12.000
I actually don't feel that they are the 2 sequences are inconsistent with each other.

380
00:32:12.059 --> 00:32:12.599
Oh, no, no.

381
00:32:12.779 --> 00:32:28.680
Because I think what is still the underlying moral of the story is that we don't want war, but sometimes you need to stand up and fight for something because otherwise, you know, you know, the old thing of, you know, evil triumphs because good people do nothing.

382
00:32:29.339 --> 00:32:43.079
It's just the difference, I think. just the difference between a scene where the peace lovingness of the farms. is an obstacle to overcome compared to a scene where it's celebrated and the doctor talks to them about how to maintain that.

383
00:32:43.500 --> 00:32:47.579
I don't think that's inconsistent with the idea that it is necessary to fight.

384
00:32:47.640 --> 00:32:52.019
You know, the files do need to stand up and fight the daleks in the daleks.

385
00:32:52.140 --> 00:32:54.180
I'm just saying it's a question of kind of emphasis.

386
00:32:54.539 --> 00:33:00.599
Interestingly, too, though, too, whilst, you know, there is no story Bible, there is no series Bible in existence.

387
00:33:01.200 --> 00:33:18.180
There is actually sort of a continuity thing going on there too, because when you think about it, the original story is set 100s of years, 500 years or something after the detonation of the bomb and the 2 races of the dolls and the dolls have evolved, you know, to become either blonde things or to go into their machines.

388
00:33:18.839 --> 00:33:25.799
And so the files have had 500 years of being completely peace loving because they've rejected war because they were the warriors there.

389
00:33:26.579 --> 00:33:31.259
Plan of the Daleks being set, however many years, 500 years, maybe again after it.

390
00:33:31.380 --> 00:33:35.880
They've kind of had to adapt to the fact that the reality of the Daleks.

391
00:33:35.940 --> 00:33:41.880
And so it sort of it does sort of work that they're still a peace-loving people, but they're kind of having to do this because they need to stop the daleks.

392
00:33:41.940 --> 00:33:43.859
It actually is a great extent.

393
00:33:44.099 --> 00:33:46.619
They're fighting to protect the piece in a way.

394
00:33:47.700 --> 00:33:56.819
It is kind of funny, though, that the, I mean, it's incredibly surprising to hear a reference to Barbara Ian and Susan in Doctor Who in 1973.

395
00:33:57.000 --> 00:33:58.380
It never happened until last point, yeah.

396
00:33:58.500 --> 00:33:59.579
That's that's amazing.

397
00:33:59.640 --> 00:34:06.420
I'm thinking maybe the final episode of the massacre is the last time that we think about previous companions and mention them.

398
00:34:07.019 --> 00:34:13.619
But, you know, that was way back during the Dalek Wars, and you kind of go, what are you talking about, the Dalek Wars?

399
00:34:13.679 --> 00:34:18.960
You know, like, like, it really is the thinnest possible kind of continuity reference.

400
00:34:19.019 --> 00:34:20.159
It is very vague.

401
00:34:20.519 --> 00:34:23.340
Terry himself doesn't seem to have really remembered.

402
00:34:23.699 --> 00:34:25.380
What's going on in that 1st story?

403
00:34:26.460 --> 00:34:27.599
And that's perfectly fine.

404
00:34:27.960 --> 00:34:28.860
Do you know what I mean?

405
00:34:29.099 --> 00:34:37.739
I do think that referring to that story is in a way, Terry Nation saying, and this is what we're getting back to.

406
00:34:37.980 --> 00:34:41.760
You know, we're going to be doing the Daleks, like this now.

407
00:34:42.780 --> 00:34:43.860
Well, like this.

408
00:34:43.980 --> 00:34:44.519
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

409
00:34:44.579 --> 00:34:45.179
Yeah, that's right.

410
00:34:45.239 --> 00:34:46.380
But we wanted off that.

411
00:34:46.440 --> 00:34:47.159
Do you know what I mean?

412
00:34:47.219 --> 00:34:48.480
We wanted off that in the 60s.

413
00:34:48.539 --> 00:34:51.300
He went back and things went bigger and bigger.

414
00:34:51.360 --> 00:34:52.980
There's nowhere else to go.

415
00:34:53.039 --> 00:34:53.880
What do you do?

416
00:34:54.480 --> 00:35:03.300
I guess you have a reality bomb that's going to destroy everything if you want to. you want the scale to be bigger than Dalek's master plan.

417
00:35:03.360 --> 00:35:16.619
And it's just like, no, it's a Dalek city, there's a jungle, there's thal, you know, there's a plague, bomb, there's all of the things that we usually do that we're used to an interrogation thing.

418
00:35:16.860 --> 00:35:18.539
All of those ingredients are here.

419
00:35:18.599 --> 00:35:19.739
They're all back again.

420
00:35:19.980 --> 00:35:22.019
We're vaccinating daleks, everything.

421
00:35:22.079 --> 00:35:23.219
It's hugely exciting.

422
00:35:23.699 --> 00:35:28.440
I tried to count all of the different elements from the original story and I lost count.

423
00:35:28.920 --> 00:35:30.059
There are some things.

424
00:35:30.119 --> 00:35:33.179
I mean, there was that sort of crawling through corridors and stuff.

425
00:35:33.239 --> 00:35:43.500
I do think that creating a planet which is interesting geologically and has these different features is something, you know, the plane of stones is interesting.

426
00:35:43.559 --> 00:35:45.059
The ice cano is interesting.

427
00:35:45.539 --> 00:35:52.679
The crawl through the ice ducts where Marat gets killed, you know, like that's, that's tense, that's well done.

428
00:35:52.739 --> 00:35:55.980
That's a, you know, that's a, a decent action sequence.

429
00:35:56.159 --> 00:35:59.820
Like we get action sequences out of it and it feeds into the plot.

430
00:35:59.880 --> 00:36:02.099
I think all of that stuff is extremely well done.

431
00:36:02.639 --> 00:36:15.960
No, I think it's all, it's all done very well and I think, you know, to speak to your, um, your idea of sort of resetting the Daleks, um, or scaling them back.

432
00:36:16.019 --> 00:36:25.079
It's an interesting, what's interesting to me about this one in particular is that it's both a kind of restatement of what they are.

433
00:36:25.800 --> 00:36:36.119
But what has always been troubling to me and this is more about the writing, but is that they had been involved in such an incredible plot in this story before this.

434
00:36:36.659 --> 00:36:38.099
And they had such a great surprise.

435
00:36:39.360 --> 00:36:44.579
I do think that it feels a bit small in some ways, this story.

436
00:36:45.300 --> 00:37:02.039
I do think the scope and the scale of it, at times feels a bit just claustrophobic or reduced in scale to a point where I kind of do think it feels a little more parochial than perhaps we would want the story to feel based on the positioning of them.

437
00:37:03.480 --> 00:37:09.179
And that's hard when, you know, David Daleks only has like 3 Daleks on location or something.

438
00:37:09.300 --> 00:37:10.980
How is this smaller scale?

439
00:37:11.039 --> 00:37:17.699
But it's because it's like most of Death Dalaxy's on location, apart from the big set pieces and the house.

440
00:37:18.360 --> 00:37:20.579
I think we should talk about Day of the Daleks.

441
00:37:21.059 --> 00:37:23.519
Is this a reaction against Day of the Daleks?

442
00:37:23.579 --> 00:37:27.119
Is this Terry Nation kind of saying, actually, no, I'll have this back now.

443
00:37:28.739 --> 00:37:30.420
No You don't, really?

444
00:37:30.539 --> 00:37:34.679
Well, no, because the chances of you having seen David Daleks is slim to none.

445
00:37:38.219 --> 00:37:39.300
His lawyer saw the script.

446
00:37:40.380 --> 00:37:51.780
But the reason Day of the Daleks feels, and I think it's a much better story is, despite the fact that there are only being 3 Daleks is, well, I would actually say because there are only 3 Daleks in it, it's a much better story.

447
00:37:52.199 --> 00:38:06.539
I've said this before, and I'm sure I'll say it again, that the best Dalek stories like Power of the Daleks, like Genesis of the Daleks, are the ones where the Daleks are actually this almost the secondary things, or at least they take a while, like there's so much else going on in the universe that's being created.

448
00:38:06.719 --> 00:38:13.260
And whenever they become too central is when the story starts to become a little bit dull, by comparison, stayed.

449
00:38:13.800 --> 00:38:17.280
I mean, Jeremy, you said claustrophobic.

450
00:38:17.340 --> 00:38:18.300
It's not claustrophobic.

451
00:38:18.360 --> 00:38:20.880
Daleks was the original Daleks story was claustrophobic.

452
00:38:20.940 --> 00:38:22.380
This is just stayed.

453
00:38:22.440 --> 00:38:29.219
It's kind of, and they're not stayed because it's using some of those same story features again. just, you're right.

454
00:38:29.460 --> 00:38:30.420
You needed something else.

455
00:38:30.480 --> 00:38:41.760
There needed to be a kind of a change of location, a change of locale, more than jungle versus city versus plane of stones. which is extraordinary because the story immediately before it, frontier and space does that.

456
00:38:41.820 --> 00:38:47.760
It goes from place to place and has this epic feel, even though it kind of doesn't do as much with it as you think it should.

457
00:38:48.179 --> 00:38:55.139
David Daleks feels more epic because you've got this very traumatic sense of you've got these different sense of people.

458
00:38:55.199 --> 00:38:57.599
You've got Aubrey Woods as the controller and all this stuff going on there.

459
00:38:57.659 --> 00:39:00.059
You've got the gorillas and all the stuff going on there.

460
00:39:00.119 --> 00:39:03.000
And then you've got unit and all the stuff going on there in the 20th century.

461
00:39:03.059 --> 00:39:05.400
And yes, you've got the 20th and 22nd century.

462
00:39:05.460 --> 00:39:08.280
So you've got this kind of epic flavour to it.

463
00:39:08.400 --> 00:39:19.679
So it's, it's just, it's so much more broad whilst, and yes, it's got more location work fine, but it's, it's broader in thought rather than in number of speaking parts.

464
00:39:20.699 --> 00:39:29.039
Also, I think this story is let down by the fact that the only location shooting you get is almost at the end of the story.

465
00:39:29.760 --> 00:39:39.780
So you've been in studios in a, like even when you go to the Plane of Stones, which they could have realised on location in the dark and might have improved it a little.

466
00:39:39.960 --> 00:39:41.519
Well, they've got 70 filming days, yeah.

467
00:39:42.000 --> 00:39:51.000
I mean, and look, that last, that scene, even the quarry or wherever it is, with the dry ice in the water and the Talax is great.

468
00:39:51.780 --> 00:39:54.840
It's where that image comes from, that image that Simon mentioned before.

469
00:39:55.980 --> 00:40:05.039
But it feels like it's just it's tacked on at the end almost as an afterthought because they, you know, they had some location days and they're like, oh, what can we do here?

470
00:40:05.519 --> 00:40:07.079
I don't think it's a what can we do here?

471
00:40:07.139 --> 00:40:09.239
It's this is what we're doing.

472
00:40:09.300 --> 00:40:12.539
How much of the plane of stones, do we have time to realise on location?

473
00:40:12.599 --> 00:40:20.039
Because you may have found that if they'd have had time, they would have done those sequences when they're by the campfire, you know, day for night or whatever.

474
00:40:20.340 --> 00:40:23.099
I think it suffers from that.

475
00:40:23.579 --> 00:40:29.880
So often location work in Doctor Who is front loaded into the 1st episode or two.

476
00:40:30.059 --> 00:40:36.059
You know, often it's spread out, but you often get that impressive opening episode with all this all the locations.

477
00:40:36.119 --> 00:40:36.659
And you're right.

478
00:40:37.019 --> 00:40:37.500
Exactly.

479
00:40:37.679 --> 00:40:38.760
It's the other way around here.

480
00:40:38.820 --> 00:40:50.639
I just think that it's, like some of the other stuff that Terry's written for the show, I think the Chase, the Artic Master plan, he's maybe getting ahead of the capacity of the program to deliver them.

481
00:40:51.000 --> 00:40:58.139
Maybe his mind is thinking of the 60s feature films rather than, you know, what actually was capable of being done on television.

482
00:40:58.199 --> 00:41:03.119
Because imagine, imagine if the jungle was on film at Ealing, in all of it.

483
00:41:03.239 --> 00:41:06.360
Imagine if the Dalek city was a bit more enclosed.

484
00:41:06.420 --> 00:41:09.599
Imagine if the plane of stone scenes were all was night filming.

485
00:41:09.719 --> 00:41:13.920
Look, think how incredible and therefore engaging, that would look in comparison.

486
00:41:14.340 --> 00:41:18.239
The version that we constructed in our heads when we were reading the novelisation, essentially.

487
00:41:18.780 --> 00:41:36.059
Look, I mean, I think that, you know, there is something insane, maybe quixotic about the desire to stage massive, complicated action sequences in a corner of a studio, in BBC television centre.

488
00:41:36.960 --> 00:41:37.619
Good luck to them.

489
00:41:37.679 --> 00:41:39.719
I mean, I shouldn't I shouldn't critique that.

490
00:41:40.079 --> 00:41:40.920
They are not bad.

491
00:41:41.219 --> 00:41:52.500
I think that things like the caves, you know, the stuff that they do in Ealing as well, you know, the crawling through the corridors. crawling through the ice tunnels, all of that stuff is really fun.

492
00:41:53.219 --> 00:42:06.480
Like, I think that that does work really well, but there are also plenty of action sequences that adjust in the studio, like, you know, trying to recapture Weber or whatever, or, you know, get the bombs and all of that sort of thing.

493
00:42:06.840 --> 00:42:09.239
But I mean, that's what he kind of wants to do.

494
00:42:09.300 --> 00:42:21.780
And I think that trying to push the show in that direction isn't a bad idea and shooting something just slightly beyond what we can comfortably achieve is something that Dr. W. does.

495
00:42:22.320 --> 00:42:23.639
Yes, it does.

496
00:42:23.639 --> 00:42:25.139
So that's quintessentially, doctor.

497
00:42:25.199 --> 00:42:25.679
Yeah, yeah.

498
00:42:39.059 --> 00:42:57.360
Now, I don't know whether this is apocrypha, but was the original intention, or the original thought, that there was going to be another 12 part 10th anniversary thing, and basically whoever it was, whether it was Terry Nation, whether it was other people saying, said to them, do not do that, it will go horribly wrong.

499
00:42:57.420 --> 00:43:03.599
And that's why you get frontier in space and plan with Dalx as source of interlinked 6 parties.

500
00:43:03.659 --> 00:43:08.880
And this definitely suffers from being the kind of the back half of that, if there is to be an arc.

501
00:43:09.000 --> 00:43:17.219
But because what you get in master plan is you get that sense of, we're going from here to there and everywhere, which I critique is being a bit too chaotic.

502
00:43:17.280 --> 00:43:20.880
But a little bit of that goes a long way and that's definitely what's missing here.

503
00:43:21.480 --> 00:43:26.639
I mean, I actually think this kind of works as a follow-up to frontier in space, though.

504
00:43:27.239 --> 00:43:34.199
And even though the continuity, like, there's not a lot of effort, clearly, Terry has no idea what was happening in front of its face.

505
00:43:34.320 --> 00:43:38.400
He isn't interested and will take no effort to find out.

506
00:43:38.460 --> 00:43:39.840
I didn't read the briefing next.

507
00:43:40.860 --> 00:43:42.780
But that's absolutely fine.

508
00:43:42.840 --> 00:43:57.719
And I do think that the scale that we get is a very Doctor Who kind of scale where there is a giant frozen army of 10,000 Daleks entirely achieved by Jane Howe's delivery and some little Louis Mark's toys.

509
00:43:57.840 --> 00:43:58.619
Do you know what I mean?

510
00:43:58.679 --> 00:44:09.239
Like, like, but that still does create a sort of galaxy threatening scale in a way that the Daleks Masterplan attempted as well.

511
00:44:10.320 --> 00:44:21.960
So, like, you know, like, it is small, and it is small scale in a way that the Daleks is, and the Daleks comes in the show's history where there's no out to look at.

512
00:44:22.139 --> 00:44:22.980
Do you know what I mean?

513
00:44:23.039 --> 00:44:32.699
Like, there's nowhere else outside this where we can kind of direct this, whereas this is been part of a, we've seen the Daleks in the, in the previous episode.

514
00:44:32.760 --> 00:44:34.019
We've seen them attack the doctor.

515
00:44:34.139 --> 00:44:40.380
We know about the Daleks from the previous year and from sort of 10 years of their history.

516
00:44:40.440 --> 00:44:48.659
And so this does have a bigger scale while still being essentially as confined in locations as the Daleks is.

517
00:44:50.039 --> 00:44:55.139
It feels like Terry hasn't even read his own script in places because at the end of episode one.

518
00:44:55.199 --> 00:45:04.260
The doctor is very surprised to see an invisible Dalek, even though he asked the time lords to send the Tartars to the planet where the Daleks were conspiring.

519
00:45:04.860 --> 00:45:06.360
Like, what?

520
00:45:06.420 --> 00:45:08.699
That's just a convenient reaction for the cliffhanger.

521
00:45:08.760 --> 00:45:10.739
I mean, that's a very doctor-y thing.

522
00:45:10.920 --> 00:45:14.400
And there are worse. sins like that all littered throughout the show.

523
00:45:14.699 --> 00:45:18.840
At least it's not world peril, like half the other episode endings in this story.

524
00:45:19.199 --> 00:45:20.699
Yes, yes, darling peril.

525
00:45:20.760 --> 00:45:22.019
Oh, no, I like a bit of word peril.

526
00:45:22.380 --> 00:45:23.159
It's not going to work.

527
00:45:23.219 --> 00:45:25.199
And somewhere on the planet, there are 10,000 dollars.

528
00:45:25.260 --> 00:45:41.699
When you think about it, $10,000 Dialects isn't actually that many to take over the universe or galaxy, but anyway, what I will say, though, in its great defence is how, and this is one of the reasons why I think we all loved reading the novelisation is because it is the most Terry Nation Terry Nation story.

529
00:45:42.179 --> 00:45:46.860
I mean, even though, yes, it's probably mainly the Daleks, but it's got the Dalek Master Plan in.

530
00:45:46.920 --> 00:45:48.659
It's got Dalek Invasion of Earth in it in places.

531
00:45:48.719 --> 00:45:50.099
It's got the chase in it and places.

532
00:45:50.579 --> 00:45:52.019
It's got it all.

533
00:45:52.260 --> 00:45:53.699
It even has keys of America.

534
00:45:53.760 --> 00:45:55.019
It's got keys of marinace in it.

535
00:45:55.079 --> 00:46:04.920
And Terry Nation fundamentally understands about incident driven drama, and that is what we, as 10, 11, 12 year olds loved.

536
00:46:04.980 --> 00:46:06.179
We don't care about the characters.

537
00:46:06.239 --> 00:46:07.440
We want stuff to happen.

538
00:46:07.800 --> 00:46:16.559
And it does with the with the exception that episode one is unnecessarily slow just so that we can have the Dalek reveal at the end of part one.

539
00:46:16.860 --> 00:46:18.300
It does actually keep going.

540
00:46:18.360 --> 00:46:19.260
There are things happening.

541
00:46:19.320 --> 00:46:24.300
You don't feel like, I mean, Nathan, you said before that, you know, you struggle with Pertwe 6 partters.

542
00:46:24.420 --> 00:46:32.940
I tend not to in the same way, but having said that, I think that after you get through episode one, it does keep going and you don't feel like you're going around in circles.

543
00:46:33.659 --> 00:46:41.219
The great thing about the classic era, um, structure, particularly with things like the perfect 6 part, is that you arrive, you find out what's going on.

544
00:46:41.340 --> 00:46:46.559
You get captured or into the alien base and find out some stuff, do some stuff.

545
00:46:46.619 --> 00:46:50.159
You escape from that, regroup, and then do your final attack.

546
00:46:50.219 --> 00:46:52.380
That's the way the kind of the art goes.

547
00:46:52.440 --> 00:46:58.980
And I think this has actually got that perfect structure going on in that aside from a slow episode one.

548
00:46:59.039 --> 00:47:00.960
But that's why we love the novelisation.

549
00:47:01.019 --> 00:47:03.000
That's why we were so looking forward to seeing it.

550
00:47:03.059 --> 00:47:06.840
And it's only because it stretched out, you know, a little more than it should be.

551
00:47:06.840 --> 00:47:10.980
And the production is not as interesting as it might be.

552
00:47:11.280 --> 00:47:12.300
That's what's letting it down.

553
00:47:13.019 --> 00:47:26.639
Yeah, and I think it's a good time too to bring up Terrence Dix a little bit because if there's one thing that he helps writers achieve is a shape of their story and remarkable consistency, right?

554
00:47:26.699 --> 00:47:49.139
So I think like there is something to be said for his contributions, which were prob- I mean, I imagine he's probably due to nation's stature, probably not editing it as much, but he is able, you know, it is an era defined by the fact that everything feels remarkably of a piece and of a whole, and that the stories are structured in a way that feels very similar.

555
00:47:49.739 --> 00:47:56.820
And not in a bad way. you know, you get less of the sort of, you know, uneven peaks and valleys that you do in a lot of other eras.

556
00:47:57.119 --> 00:48:03.119
And it's because you have such a steady hand on the till, sort of keeping it moving.

557
00:48:04.019 --> 00:48:09.840
And I think there's for a 6 part story with the Daleks in it written by Terry Nation, who's written a bunch of these by now.

558
00:48:10.320 --> 00:48:14.340
The feeling of incident and kinetic energy in it is pretty great.

559
00:48:14.940 --> 00:48:30.480
I think one of the things that we discovered when we did our Terrence Dix season was that what Terrence often does is he gives the villains something to react against and he allows the villains to have plans that develop.

560
00:48:31.260 --> 00:48:34.079
And it, like, compared to something like snake dance, right?

561
00:48:34.139 --> 00:48:42.780
Where the Mara can only achieve its coming at a particular date in the future and we all just have to hang around and wait for that to happen.

562
00:48:44.099 --> 00:48:58.800
Whereas, you know, something like robot, you have the scientific reform society has plans and its plans are in motion and we see the plans happening and we react to them and they react to what we do and all of that sort of thing.

563
00:48:58.860 --> 00:49:01.320
And so a thing is developing over a period of time.

564
00:49:01.739 --> 00:49:05.400
And Terence is very, very good at just getting things to happen.

565
00:49:05.579 --> 00:49:09.179
But Terry Nation is good at that too.

566
00:49:09.239 --> 00:49:22.380
And so here, like here, I think, maybe, maybe the big flaw that I identified in the Daleks is that we have a lot of action sequences at the back end, which don't involve the Daleks.

567
00:49:22.800 --> 00:49:28.079
And the Daleks are in their city talking to each other about the vaccine program or God knows what.

568
00:49:28.440 --> 00:49:34.800
And we're over here somewhere else climbing over chasms and panicking and all of that kind of thing.

569
00:49:35.280 --> 00:49:43.739
And there's a, like keeping the Daleks away from those action sequences, I think, is a mistake and it makes them less interesting.

570
00:49:44.340 --> 00:49:47.699
But here the action sequences do involve the dialects.

571
00:49:47.699 --> 00:49:49.440
And in particular, the incredible set piece.

572
00:49:49.500 --> 00:49:53.280
That imaginative set set piece. of going up the shaft.

573
00:49:53.639 --> 00:50:05.880
You know, the Daleks are right behind us and then the Daleks react to it and they're speeding towards the top of the shaft and they're coming up the shaft behind us and stuff like it's escaping the Daleks the entire time.

574
00:50:05.940 --> 00:50:07.860
And so they're all there.

575
00:50:07.920 --> 00:50:10.980
And I think that that's absolutely, that's brilliant.

576
00:50:11.039 --> 00:50:19.079
And it's a rare moment of verticality in a Doctor Who story in the classic era because we can't go up normally.

577
00:50:20.940 --> 00:50:22.199
Especially not with Dalek.

578
00:50:22.380 --> 00:50:23.159
Yeah, that's right.

579
00:50:23.219 --> 00:50:24.300
And so here they do.

580
00:50:24.360 --> 00:50:27.900
And I think it's really properly good that those sequences.

581
00:50:28.380 --> 00:50:30.960
It's always a race in time against the Daleks.

582
00:50:31.019 --> 00:50:40.260
The exception, I think, is the ice cano thing. where we're crawling through those corridors and we have to get there before there's an explosion, but I think that's really well done as well.

583
00:50:40.500 --> 00:50:43.199
And of course, the dialects are kind of at the end of that as well.

584
00:50:43.320 --> 00:50:56.699
So, like, just making sure that Daleks remain involved in everything, I think, is the reason why, as far as the plot goes, as far as filling the allotted number of episodes with things goes.

585
00:50:56.760 --> 00:51:00.659
I think this beats the Daleks in that respect.

586
00:51:01.440 --> 00:51:08.219
I think my favourite part of the keeping the dogs involved is Joe ducking and weaving past the really unobserved dog.

587
00:51:09.000 --> 00:51:09.960
There's always a bit of that.

588
00:51:10.440 --> 00:51:17.579
It's one looking directly towards her, just slightly down, and it just doesn't see her as she walks straight across.

589
00:51:19.079 --> 00:51:21.780
I think my favourite Dalek moment and it made me laugh.

590
00:51:21.840 --> 00:51:22.559
I had to stop.

591
00:51:22.619 --> 00:51:23.760
I was laughing so hard.

592
00:51:24.239 --> 00:51:35.099
And then people forget that Daleks can be funny, but they're doing the bacteria thing and the one dollar slaps up against the side of the cannister and the other all goes caution, caution, and it's just...

593
00:51:36.300 --> 00:51:37.079
It's just great.

594
00:51:37.139 --> 00:51:56.340
I love those moments where they're, you know, like they, we forget that they're also silly at times, you know, like anytime someone throws a mic over them, they lose their minds and stuff and they're really perfect monsters for children because they are scary and weird and threatening and dangerous, but you can also make fun of them.

595
00:51:56.400 --> 00:51:57.599
I don't know how they pulled that off.

596
00:51:57.719 --> 00:52:04.440
It's a real achievement of terry nation and the people who've made Doc stories to make them that scary but funny.

597
00:52:04.500 --> 00:52:06.300
It's a hard thing to do.

598
00:52:06.840 --> 00:52:12.179
Who was it that described the Daleks as being like a child having a temper tangent?

599
00:52:12.840 --> 00:52:22.440
And like, like, they're very driven by emotion, ironically. given that they're supposed to have got rid of a lot of those things. at various points in their history.

600
00:52:22.920 --> 00:52:28.679
Oh, the way that they like have a meltdown when Wester knocks off the lid.

601
00:52:28.920 --> 00:52:31.739
It's like, we can never leave.

602
00:52:32.519 --> 00:52:36.300
I think too, this is Michael Wishes 1st time. is a Darlic voice.

603
00:52:36.420 --> 00:52:37.860
Yes, I think so, like voices.

604
00:52:38.579 --> 00:52:40.800
So we have Michael Wisher and Roy Skelton.

605
00:52:40.860 --> 00:52:50.639
Michael Wishes the one who is doing the proper dialect trick of occasionally lengthening a syllable for no particular reason. his homework.

606
00:52:50.699 --> 00:52:54.239
Yeah, yeah, yeah. which is adorable.

607
00:52:54.300 --> 00:52:57.840
Yes, he is the one that Nick Briggs, I think models his performance on.

608
00:52:58.500 --> 00:53:03.300
I actually think Nick Briggs does some David Grahams and Peter Hawke...

609
00:53:03.480 --> 00:53:04.679
No, you're quite correct.

610
00:53:04.739 --> 00:53:05.460
You're quite correct there.

611
00:53:05.519 --> 00:53:08.880
Well, I think he merges them all together, which is why he was he was the logical choice.

612
00:53:08.940 --> 00:53:18.900
He actually, like when you listen to a lot of big finishers, some of us do, he goes on about how he, how, like in the behind the scenes stuff, he's like, oh, yes, I was doing a David Graham here.

613
00:53:20.760 --> 00:53:26.699
But in Adventure in Space and Time, he does that, like, where he actually plays David Graham, sitting at the side of the studio.

614
00:53:27.059 --> 00:53:28.320
I said immediately.

615
00:53:37.980 --> 00:53:47.940
Just going back to a disappointing thing of production is when they bring one of the movie dialects in to be the Supreme Command Dalek or whatever the title it's given. stick a torch on it.

616
00:53:48.119 --> 00:53:54.119
Yes, but right from the get go, as a child, what were we 14 year old?

617
00:53:54.300 --> 00:54:00.599
The thing that gave me the era so much was the fact that the lights didn't do not flash in time with that particular dialect.

618
00:54:00.659 --> 00:54:02.400
Is it the actor inside?

619
00:54:02.460 --> 00:54:03.179
What's going on there?

620
00:54:03.719 --> 00:54:05.880
I don't think that's being unnecessarily picky.

621
00:54:05.940 --> 00:54:09.059
I think that's bad and that that shouldn't have been allowed to happen.

622
00:54:09.719 --> 00:54:16.739
See, I love, I love the, I think it's bad to themselves look really cool. sort of jam jar lights.

623
00:54:17.219 --> 00:54:18.780
Oh, I mean, it's gorgeous.

624
00:54:18.840 --> 00:54:19.139
Yeah.

625
00:54:19.139 --> 00:54:19.500
Yeah.

626
00:54:19.739 --> 00:54:21.179
It's just annoying.

627
00:54:21.599 --> 00:54:21.960
Yeah.

628
00:54:21.960 --> 00:54:25.320
And that is the kind of thing that a child, you know, takes you out the drama, you pick up on.

629
00:54:25.380 --> 00:54:28.079
And yes, suspends the disbelief even, one could say.

630
00:54:29.159 --> 00:54:31.800
Well, it annoyed the hell out of me this time around.

631
00:54:31.800 --> 00:54:35.460
And I was prepared for it, but it is very bad, I think.

632
00:54:35.880 --> 00:54:39.960
Yeah, worst, the worst sin of Dalek operation.

633
00:54:40.079 --> 00:54:42.780
Well, apart from Peter Messalin in Day of the Daleks, obviously.

634
00:54:45.659 --> 00:54:46.559
The 2nd one.

635
00:54:46.679 --> 00:54:49.619
No, no, no, actually they are as poor as each other.

636
00:54:51.059 --> 00:54:53.579
Can we talk about things that don't make sense in the plot?

637
00:54:54.480 --> 00:54:57.659
how cold affects Daleks and Daleks are insane.

638
00:54:57.780 --> 00:54:58.380
Canadian.

639
00:54:59.099 --> 00:55:00.179
It depends on the episode.

640
00:55:00.179 --> 00:55:06.360
Depends on the episode, so the cold makes them not operate and then pushing them in the cold, but then you can't let them get cold.

641
00:55:07.079 --> 00:55:12.179
It was bonkers to me that I never noticed it before, but watching it this time, I'm like, so wait a minute.

642
00:55:12.659 --> 00:55:19.679
They use the cold as a weapon, but then also they can't let them get cold and then they're destroyed by cold, that's very inconsistent in all over the place.

643
00:55:19.800 --> 00:55:22.679
And that's just that's just messy scripting, right?

644
00:55:22.739 --> 00:55:30.840
Like, all you had to do was have a line that said, like sudden drops in temperature, which they kind of say in one of the episodes, the sudden dropping temperature killed them.

645
00:55:30.960 --> 00:55:46.860
But then, they just needed to sort of work around the, they, this has been a controlled kind of, a controlled, slow freezing, and they're like, and like I said, they're being put slowly into the surrendered animation, not, whereas, you know, the gush.

646
00:55:46.980 --> 00:55:52.980
See, the gushing ice volcano should have destroyed them because it's just a sudden, a sudden dropping temperature. temperature.

647
00:55:53.699 --> 00:55:55.139
That would have made it work, I think.

648
00:55:55.199 --> 00:55:57.239
It's just it's just, yeah, it's just messy.

649
00:55:57.780 --> 00:56:04.380
I do think the ending where they're just entombed, though, and we will come back to that ending in, what, 2 weeks time?

650
00:56:05.579 --> 00:56:06.000
Yeah.

651
00:56:06.000 --> 00:56:10.920
Is a better ending than they're destroyed by the ice cane notes.

652
00:56:11.159 --> 00:56:14.280
And because the entire base is filling up.

653
00:56:14.340 --> 00:56:25.079
We don't actually get to see them fully entombed the little models, but we imagine that they're entombed in a solid block of ice by the end of it and we would never be able to unfreeze it.

654
00:56:25.139 --> 00:56:26.579
And that's kind of cool.

655
00:56:28.860 --> 00:56:33.539
Terry Nation is doing his 1st draft of their final speech from Genesis.

656
00:56:33.599 --> 00:56:34.440
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

657
00:56:34.559 --> 00:56:36.420
Yeah, he's like, oh, it's almost there.

658
00:56:36.539 --> 00:56:37.139
It's almost there.

659
00:56:37.199 --> 00:56:40.380
Given up a couple of years, I'll give this write down pat.

660
00:56:42.179 --> 00:56:48.239
I also love how everyone is very comfortable putting their hands in puddles of goo on an alien planet.

661
00:56:48.900 --> 00:56:50.340
We and Rebecca both do that.

662
00:56:50.519 --> 00:56:51.480
I don't think I'd do it.

663
00:56:51.539 --> 00:56:52.199
I don't think I would.

664
00:56:52.260 --> 00:56:54.780
Oh, that's, you know, that boo is interesting.

665
00:56:55.139 --> 00:56:56.760
It's just Swaffiga.

666
00:56:57.420 --> 00:56:58.980
It is very weird, isn't it?

667
00:56:59.039 --> 00:57:10.860
Like, I think, I think that, you know, like, if it's so cold, I think there's some attempt for Marat to look like he's kind of a bit frostbitten and slow on his feet, which is why he gets killed by the Dalek.

668
00:57:10.920 --> 00:57:25.139
But, you know, if we're really super anxious about them being touched by the oncoming ice, I think it's a bad idea to have them just wading, you know, like crawling on their hands and knees through it without kind of being more panicky about it.

669
00:57:25.199 --> 00:57:28.619
It undermines the threat of it a little bit.

670
00:57:29.039 --> 00:57:31.139
It should be sort of too cold to the touch.

671
00:57:31.380 --> 00:57:32.460
But like whatever.

672
00:57:32.519 --> 00:57:33.300
Do you know what I mean?

673
00:57:33.360 --> 00:57:41.280
I still think that that is a pretty great sequence and and having having the doctor encodal, you know, actually come across them and they're talking to each other through the ventilation thing.

674
00:57:41.340 --> 00:57:42.420
All of that is really great.

675
00:57:42.480 --> 00:57:44.639
Like I do think that sequence is really good.

676
00:57:44.760 --> 00:57:55.260
I think killing Marat is the right thing there to remind us, you know, that there's a threat and to get one superfluous and undercharacterized Thal out of the way.

677
00:57:56.039 --> 00:57:58.139
So all of that, I think, is pretty good.

678
00:57:58.199 --> 00:58:02.940
But I was kind of wondering about how cold that goo was.

679
00:58:03.239 --> 00:58:11.699
It's like the other thing I like, too, is that point you made about keeping the Daleks involved, too, because not only do the doctor and Kodal meet up with them and they pull them out of the vent.

680
00:58:11.760 --> 00:58:19.079
But then the Daleks are, I believe, immediately right behind them and then the ice stuff comes out of it and destroys those Daleks that are chasing them.

681
00:58:19.139 --> 00:58:21.000
So it all ties together so well.

682
00:58:21.059 --> 00:58:31.139
And that's all, I think, that's a combination of Terry Nations, writing it, you know, an understanding action, and then Maloney knowing how to film it in a way that keeps it moving and propulsive.

683
00:58:31.199 --> 00:58:32.039
So...

684
00:58:56.099 --> 00:58:58.019
Well, that's all the time we have for this week.

685
00:58:58.079 --> 00:59:05.159
We'll be back next week to see if Terry Nation can take the Daleks in a bold, new direction in Death to the Daleks.

686
00:59:06.900 --> 00:59:24.719
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts, and you can keep up with us on our website, 500yearDiary.com, where you'll find our social media links as well as links to all of our other podcasts, including the entirety of flights through entirety, which comprises every episode of our 4 Doctor Who podcasts.

687
00:59:27.119 --> 00:59:31.920
Until next time, remember that a single Louis Mark's toy is now worth 100s of pounds.

688
00:59:32.219 --> 00:59:37.739
So if you can actually locate the planet Spirad on, and you bring a big enough shovel, you'll make a fortune.

689
00:59:38.639 --> 00:59:40.380
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

690
00:59:40.860 --> 00:59:41.639
Ta-ta.

691
00:59:41.880 --> 00:59:42.420
Good night.

692
00:59:42.599 --> 00:59:43.139
Bye bye.

693
00:59:55.559 --> 01:00:01.260
That was 500 Year Diary, starring Nathan Bottomley, Simon Moore, Jeremy Braddock and James Selwood.

694
01:00:01.380 --> 01:00:03.719
The theme was composed by Cameron Lamb.

695
01:00:03.960 --> 01:00:11.159
This episode, the back end of the Daleks, was recorded on the 16th of August 2026, and released on the 27th of September.

696
01:00:12.719 --> 01:00:26.400
As a lifelong fan of Planet of the Daleks, sometimes I find it helpful to remember that though life might seem a bit low budget and studio bound from time to time, the novelisation is going to be an absolute page turner.

697
01:00:38.460 --> 01:00:46.079
Just going back to the thing of, you know, episode 3 being in black and white when a lot of us saw it for the first time, whenever that may have been.

698
01:00:47.039 --> 01:00:52.980
And I remember at the time, a lot of us thinking, gosh, episode 3 is the best episode of them all because it's in black and white.

699
01:00:53.039 --> 01:00:57.179
Now, I think episode 3 is the best episode despite the fact that it was only in black and white.

700
01:00:57.539 --> 01:01:05.760
But there was something that we haven't had the chance to talk about it on another episode yet, and that is what happens to the image when it's telescinied.

701
01:01:05.940 --> 01:01:12.480
Now, remember that the video is not actually 25 frames per 2nd or pal video is not 25 frames per second.

702
01:01:12.539 --> 01:01:14.099
It's actually 50 fields per second.

703
01:01:14.159 --> 01:01:16.440
It's 50 half frames, right?

704
01:01:16.500 --> 01:01:17.760
Every other line is refreshed.

705
01:01:18.539 --> 01:01:21.480
Film collapses that to be 25 images.

706
01:01:21.659 --> 01:01:39.780
Now, when we were watching in the 80s on the ABC, and I'm sure in North America too, um, you know, whether it's the Salurians or Masses of Death or Terror of the Orzans in black and white, they weren't just in black and white, they were, they had a filmic quality to them because of the fact that it's been transferred to film.

707
01:01:39.840 --> 01:01:50.159
Now, kudos to the restoration team and all that for introducing vidfire and getting back the video effect onto the image as it should have been.

708
01:01:50.519 --> 01:01:57.840
But I remember thinking in 1986, would my view of Planet of the Daleks have been better in 1986?

709
01:01:58.019 --> 01:02:04.019
Had the whole thing been sent to us as a black and white print rather than them just sending us episode 3 in black and white?

710
01:02:04.079 --> 01:02:14.099
Because, of course, there were other stories like the demons, which you still had one 625 line episode, but the rest of them were black and white prints, yet they sent us black and white copies of all of them, right?

711
01:02:15.000 --> 01:02:29.099
I actually think that the story would have been the production would have been better served, if that's the way we'd have seen it, because not just not only do you lose a little bit of the definition, but you lose that clarity that video gives you, and it hides some of the scenes.

712
01:02:29.639 --> 01:02:33.179
James, you said before that Kemble looks better in master plan.

713
01:02:33.420 --> 01:02:35.340
It's not just because it's in black and white.

714
01:02:35.400 --> 01:02:42.599
I agree with you that it's not just because it's in black and white, but I think a lot of the reasons the jungle looks better in master plan is because it's in black and white.

715
01:02:42.659 --> 01:02:44.639
I think that is a thing.

716
01:02:44.699 --> 01:02:56.039
And also because it's come via that that Telesinied film print, which gives inevitably, regardless of how much it's cleaned up, inevitably gives the image a slightly different quality to it.

717
01:02:56.159 --> 01:02:57.719
It's just an interesting observation.

718
01:02:57.719 --> 01:03:17.400
And with the Blu-ray box sets, I sometimes wonder, they miss a trick by not putting something, just one story, just ambassadors of death, just the demons on there as the black and a cleaned up black and white, unvidfired print because that's how so many of us experienced those stories for the 1st time.

719
01:03:17.940 --> 01:03:24.119
It does surprise me that they don't do that, that they don't give you, even just compare and contrast, and they have.

720
01:03:24.179 --> 01:03:32.400
They actually have on some sets included like versions of episodes, I think, which haven't had all that processing done to it.

721
01:03:32.940 --> 01:03:36.420
But it's just a surprise that they don't go, here are the elements.

722
01:03:36.480 --> 01:03:41.400
Yeah, here is the untreated sort of copy from Canada on VHS.

723
01:03:41.579 --> 01:03:45.119
You know, here is the black and white, like master that we went with.

724
01:03:45.119 --> 01:03:49.199
And here is the, here is the rest, all its restored glory.

725
01:03:49.260 --> 01:03:53.099
I think that would actually, a lot of fans would actually really be interested in that.

726
01:03:53.159 --> 01:03:54.420
And it's just a surprise they don't.

727
01:03:54.960 --> 01:04:03.659
I mean, I totally get that the ultimate goal is to recreate, reproduce, bring back to the standard that it was when it was made.

728
01:04:03.900 --> 01:04:06.000
Totally get that, and that should be the goal.

729
01:04:06.239 --> 01:04:12.659
But I think so much of being a Doctor Who fan, especially Doctor Who fans of our vintage is a nostalgia.

730
01:04:12.719 --> 01:04:19.739
And I think some of that nostalgia was having the end credits with, you know, continuity announcer's voices over them.

731
01:04:19.800 --> 01:04:21.119
Which you get on those boxes.

732
01:04:21.239 --> 01:04:28.380
Yes, yeah, but just in stepping, but no, there's nothing about watching the episode and then having, you know, the announcer come on immediately after.

733
01:04:28.440 --> 01:04:31.199
It's not just not just English. look, that's just the nostalgia element.

734
01:04:31.260 --> 01:04:33.300
It's just something I've mentioned it.

735
01:04:33.360 --> 01:04:37.619
I may have mentioned it to one of or 2 people who have something to do with the creation of these.

736
01:04:37.619 --> 01:04:40.260
Let's just say it's not going to happen.

737
01:04:41.039 --> 01:04:45.179
Can I can I just mention how good episode 3 looks?

738
01:04:45.420 --> 01:04:46.139
Oh, stunning.

739
01:04:46.199 --> 01:04:47.940
Absolutely. previous attempts.

740
01:04:48.000 --> 01:04:49.679
There had been previous attempts for VHS.

741
01:04:49.739 --> 01:04:50.760
It was colorised, wasn't it?

742
01:04:50.880 --> 01:04:51.719
No, I don't believe so.

743
01:04:51.780 --> 01:04:53.159
Yeah, it was for one of the TVD releases.

744
01:04:53.880 --> 01:04:54.360
I believe.

745
01:04:54.780 --> 01:04:58.980
But that was soft. it was much softer And I was expecting that again.

746
01:04:59.039 --> 01:05:01.679
It was very clear and sort of disappointingly clear.

747
01:05:01.739 --> 01:05:09.599
I think on the DVD release that 3 was a different type of thing, like a, you know, but here, like dinosaurs one.

748
01:05:10.139 --> 01:05:11.579
Yes, yeah, yeah. that's right.

749
01:05:11.639 --> 01:05:13.500
Where it's really rough looking, isn't it?

750
01:05:13.860 --> 01:05:15.239
But it looked great.

751
01:05:15.539 --> 01:05:19.380
Like, I thought it was indistinguishable in quality from the other ones.

752
01:05:20.519 --> 01:05:28.559
The only thing you can tell is the fact that the soundtrack is slightly tinnier because you're using a 16 mil sound stripe rather than what would have been the richer sound on the 2 inch quad.

753
01:05:28.739 --> 01:05:29.519
Okay, okay.

754
01:05:29.579 --> 01:05:30.599
That's worth noting.

755
01:05:30.659 --> 01:05:32.219
But certainly the colour.

756
01:05:32.280 --> 01:05:37.199
And famously, it's that weird chroma dot thing, isn't it?

757
01:05:37.260 --> 01:05:39.420
Like some colour information. recovery.

758
01:05:39.599 --> 01:05:40.320
Yeah, yeah.

759
01:05:40.500 --> 01:05:45.840
So what you want you'd find with invasion of the dinosaurs one is that they don't have the chrome adopt.

760
01:05:45.900 --> 01:06:01.260
So that is, I think, James, correct me if I'm wrong, isn't that using that thing where they've tried to colourise, you know, black and white films that were made in black and white, where the computer decides what shade of gray it is, therefore, it's this colour, and I think that may have been the way they did Plan of the Daleks 3 in the 1st place.

761
01:06:01.619 --> 01:06:02.460
Does that ring a bell?

762
01:06:02.880 --> 01:06:03.539
plausible.

763
01:06:03.780 --> 01:06:05.940
Because colourisation is quite a while ago.

764
01:06:06.000 --> 01:06:12.420
Like, I'm just really looking forward to the season 11 box set to see how... because that has to be done by hand.

765
01:06:12.840 --> 01:06:18.300
Because, I mean, because remember, the original ones were stripping, stripping the colour out of the eumatic Canadian copies.

766
01:06:18.300 --> 01:06:31.320
And then, and then that's why, and that's why masses of death was a failure for, in the 1st instance, because the Canadian copy of that tape wasn't as good in good quality so that they were losing some of the colour in some of the episodes.

767
01:06:31.619 --> 01:06:49.139
But the fact that, you know, the chromodots, that, you know, inside the black and white image, there's the, you know, what makes up the RGB, the red, green, blue, um, dots, um, which merged together to give us the sense of colour, those weren't suppressed correctly as they were supposed to be.

768
01:06:49.380 --> 01:06:53.880
But the fact that then we can use that to generate the colour.

769
01:06:54.300 --> 01:06:58.019
I mean isn't that absolutely extraordinary. that we can do that.

770
01:06:58.079 --> 01:07:06.300
And I think it's only because of obsessive people like us and our friends that work for the BBC and other organisations.

771
01:07:06.659 --> 01:07:19.739
This is the kind of thing that has happened because of Doctor Who, because no other program generates this kind of interest in this kind of obsession to make people come up with such an ingenious solution.

772
01:07:19.920 --> 01:07:21.300
Is Vidfire like that?

773
01:07:21.420 --> 01:07:23.519
I mean, is that where Vid fire is?

774
01:07:23.519 --> 01:07:24.059
Exactly the same.

775
01:07:24.179 --> 01:07:26.460
Now, because I discovered, I didn't discover it.

776
01:07:26.519 --> 01:07:27.480
But I, the same thing.

777
01:07:27.480 --> 01:07:28.619
That's going to occur to me.

778
01:07:29.219 --> 01:07:50.760
Well, no, because back in the day, because the university degree that Peter and I did the communications degree, which had a bit of video production in it, and, you know, that was in the early 90s when we were kind of at peak fan and we were making joke tapes and clips tapes, and because of this, you know, quite sophisticated console, we were able to, you know, there was a knob and you could run the videotape through a different speed.

779
01:07:50.820 --> 01:07:54.300
And when we had it running through at precisely double speed.

780
01:07:54.659 --> 01:08:01.019
Suddenly, when we had a black and white story, I don't know what it was, it was like, 0 my god, that looks like it's on video now.

781
01:08:02.099 --> 01:08:04.139
And because that's what they discovered as well.

782
01:08:04.199 --> 01:08:12.420
They discovered that if you run it at twice the speed, it looks like video again, which is, as I said before, 50 fields per second, not 25 frames per second.

783
01:08:12.539 --> 01:08:18.359
But that's the kind of thing that Doctor Who has, you know, generated, this kind of, these kind of discoveries.

784
01:08:18.420 --> 01:08:19.560
I mean, isn't that extraordinary?

785
01:08:20.340 --> 01:08:22.439
And all because they junked some of it.

786
01:08:22.859 --> 01:08:25.680
Like, all this creativity to try and recover it.

787
01:08:26.220 --> 01:08:27.659
Like, it's pretty amazing.

788
01:08:28.560 --> 01:08:39.779
What other show would have, you know, like multiple cartoons of missing episodes made and and have things reconstructed in the way this program has?

789
01:08:39.779 --> 01:08:45.720
I mean, I'm not saying that I'm happy about the episode's being chunked, but like, look at look at what it created.

790
01:08:46.380 --> 01:08:51.180
But there are other programs that have been junked and they don't have anything close to this kind of love and attention.

791
01:08:51.659 --> 01:09:11.819
Yeah, and even then, and the other thing too, not to forget is like the, all of it, the linchpin of it all working is the fact that some fans went home and they stuck a microphone up to their speaker or they hardwired it in and they got the audio because without having audio of all of them, then we wouldn't, you know, I don't think those efforts would even make sense.

792
01:09:11.880 --> 01:09:18.960
So Doctor Who's been really lucky out of all the all the television that's been wiped and junked since long history.

793
01:09:19.020 --> 01:09:21.659
What a stroke of luck that we had those audios too.

794
01:09:22.500 --> 01:09:33.539
Peter just talks about it being the most, uh, heavily kind of, um, uh, documented uh, television production in history.

795
01:09:33.539 --> 01:09:47.699
And, yeah, I mean, you think you think Star Trek is a show from the 60s, that is still kind of a going concern and whose original episodes are still watched and broadcast and stuff, and whose episodes were in a state.

796
01:09:47.880 --> 01:09:57.359
Like I remember when I was a kid, there were episodes of original track that were kind of unwatchably bad and did need quite a bit of love and attention and restoration and stuff.

797
01:09:57.420 --> 01:10:03.539
So I guess that's the maybe the nearest, um, the, you know, the runner-up, perhaps.

798
01:10:04.079 --> 01:10:31.739
Yeah, even then, a lot of the restoration of Star Trek is because it was made by a reasonably wealthy, American production company, on film, exactly, whereas the creativity that's brought a lot of Doctor Who back is kind of grassroots by fans who saved it, fans who put in all this effort in the downtime after their day job was finished because they worked at the BBC.

799
01:10:32.460 --> 01:10:33.479
That's kind of cool.

800
01:10:34.800 --> 01:10:35.939
It's been done with love.

801
01:10:36.000 --> 01:10:38.159
It's not been done because there was lots of money.

802
01:10:38.159 --> 01:10:50.579
It's been done because they've, they were there and they had access to the equipment and they were working like nights just to try and fix these things and work out how to, to restore them.

803
01:10:51.600 --> 01:10:52.619
I think that's a tag.

804
01:10:52.680 --> 01:10:53.279
What do you think?

805
01:10:53.699 --> 01:10:55.199
I think that's probably...

806
01:10:55.260 --> 01:10:55.859
Yeah, yeah, yeah.