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This transcript was created on 2026-10-25 at 19:52:30

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to 500 year diary, the only Doctor Who podcast whose ex husband has fallen head over heels in love with Anthropic's third most recent AI model.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Peter.

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I'm Todd, and I'm the curious notion that windspit quarry doubles as an exciting disco mosh pit for this one.

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Well, it's the 1st of September, 1979.

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It's been nearly 4 years since anyone has seen Terry Nation's name in the opening credits of Doctor Who, and nearly 4.5 years since Davros found cause to regret skimping on the Thesaurus upgrade to the Dalek's vocabulary banks.

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But it turns out that there definitely is such a thing as pent up demand, as tonight's an astonishing 13000000 people tune in for one more classic end of part one Dalek reveal.

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It's time for us to talk about Terry Nation's final script for the program, Destiny of the Daleks.

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All right, before we get on to the terry nationness of this story, I think we need to talk about 2 things.

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We're going to talk about the regeneration scene, this is the 2nd Dalek-based regeneration story in Doctor Who's history, and of course, the production itself.

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Are we still angry about the regeneration?

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Well, I was never angry about this generation.

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What do you mean, are we still angry?

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I loved it at the time.

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I thought, oh, she's trying on different bodies.

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It's great.

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And the fact that it was, Prince says Astra straight up the bat.

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I was just there going, I loved her in the previous story and although obviously Mary's not back.

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As a child, I thought, oh, no, she's better than Mary.

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Now, now I don't necessarily agree with that opinion, but I really loved it.

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And I'm waiting for the big Finnish box set with no thinking, not today.

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And her counterparts.

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I think it's a good thing that Armageddon factor was the previous story, not Power of Krogs.

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We could have ended up with Romana looking out Hag for like the rest of season 7, season 18.

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Or Thrawn, genius of technology. fallen into that one as well.

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Like, you know, with the we've got all the new regenerations that everybody has the light and then suddenly boom, it's just them.

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And I can't remember when, I'm probably read it in something where it was sort of like, like, she's just got regeneration control and she starts with this body and then she flicks through and then her final version is there at the end.

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So she hasn't used all those regenerations still just the one.

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No, didn't you think at the time, how old were we, Nathan?

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I was 12.

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Yeah. 1980 this was shown only a few months after the UK one.

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I just assumed she was doing a choji.

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No, seriously, at 12, I thought you were just projecting possibilities.

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And I like that Douglas Adams, who, correct me if I'm wrong, wrote most of this. bit of conjecture at the time between Douglas and Terry.

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You know, remember, Douglas said, I only got a one page synopsis and wrote the rest myself.

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That is such a slur.

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Everyone says that about Terry.

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But no, from what fan reception anyway, at the time in the journals was that this was one of the Douglas Adams scenes.

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Yes, I think so.

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Yeah, definitely. just feels it.

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It's the trying on clothes thing.

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You know, the arms are a bit long, something that's sensible that will wear well, something that's warm.

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Like, it's all being spoken.

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Style.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

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It's terribly funny to have the doctor call his own costume. silly.

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The costume that we end up with it at the end is absolutely spectacular.

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That pink version of Tom's outfit is magnificent.

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Totally.

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Yeah.

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For me, one of the things about regeneration is that it is the point of the program where it doesn't really work in the context of creating an imaginary world, it is part of the show that's absolutely dictated just by the real world and the exigencies of production.

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It doesn't really make sense.

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The more seriously, they take regeneration in the show, the stupider, I think it is.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Because, well, just as an idea.

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So you prefer time in the Rani's regeneration over the caves of Andrasani's.

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I'm, you know, this is why I'm not angry about Billy Piper, suddenly popping up at the end of the reality war, because this is the part of Doctor Who, where the fiction is paper thin, and what's happening is stuff about the production.

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And I guess the David Tennant regeneration at the end of the stolen earth as well, for the same reason.

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You know, that's much more about how it's going to play out at home.

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It's much more about actors, contracts ending, all of that sort of thing.

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And here, where Williams has somehow been unable to secure the services of either of the 2 other main cast members for this year in what was baffling to me at the time.

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That's why we're getting a regeneration.

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So I don't mind that it's played a bit for laugh.

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We might want to just reappraise that for the listener who isn't aware of the history just here.

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So we know that Mary had to leave because she was pregnant.

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But you're saying Tom wasn't signed?

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But did she, because she said in interviews, like she said that had she known that they were going to Paris and doing the dialect, she would have reconsidered?

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Yeah, so she could have done it.

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But it's John Leeson who's not who's not bad.

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Cough, Cough.

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But he isn't even Tom not contracted.

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It's contract roulette. doesn't he sign a contract very late in the day for this season?

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Yes, the end of season 16 was the time where it all blew up between Tom Baker and Graham Williams and all had to go to, I think, Graham McDonald's to get sorted out or Graham McDonald's predecessor.

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And yes, Tom did sign very late in the day.

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So it was all very kind of ropey, and I think I remember feeling at the time because this is, this is 1980.

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I'm in year 6.

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I am aware that this is a new season.

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I'm excited to see it.

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But there are all sorts of disappointments, I think, in this for me, even at the time.

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And when I look at the story now, I think it's massively enjoyable.

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And partly because I'm super basic and like long black and white Doctor Who stories are something that are a bit more of a duty than, you know, a joy.

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This, I think, is the story that I enjoy the most of all of Terry Nation's Dalek stories, even though I'm prepared to acknowledge that it is by no means the best.

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By no means the best, but Peter and I, we were only eight.

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So, like, for me, as a young child, I just remember having, like, wow, it's the new Romana, and then it's the Daleks, and then it's Davros, and, but I did have the revelation in my head that, oh, Davros isn't quite the same, so I knew that it was a recast.

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I think it was the 1st time I really sort of hit upon that in a television show, you know?

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But I enjoyed it at the time immensely.

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I love the Mobellins and how they moved and all that.

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I thought that was great.

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I think there's a couple of production lapses. absolutely.

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But as a template for the show going forward, I think.

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People point to the leisure hive.

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There's like the quantum leap in production quality between the 70s and the 80s, and it is, but it's not definitive.

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You know, we get sorry productions like Megloss and Time Flight following the Leisure Hive.

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I think Destiny actually prefigures a lot of that.

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It's a very modern production in Doctor Who terms.

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You know, obviously there's the steady cam, which is a camera which is mounted on somebody and is on a rig that keeps it literally steady, which means that they can do those fluid kind of moving shots on location, which they use a lot of.

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But there's also a lot of very forward looking touches, like having the redheads, lights in shot in the studio.

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And that passes, you know, you can absolutely believe that that's something that, you know, the Dalek slaves have set up to sort of light the way or whatever.

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And the cameras in the studio are also very mobile.

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There's lots of tracking and moving and reframing the characters.

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I think it's actually a very assured production, which makes the fact that there is one or 2 lapses, all the more regrettable.

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I agree with you, Peter.

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Like I was watching parts of it this morning.

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And the camera movement, on location around the Nova device or whatever it's called, and just all of that, and all the location work.

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I was just there going, this is, you know, there's some money at this or the production values.

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I mean, I guess you're comparing it to, you know, inbound studio perhaps from the previous story, but you just feel that there's a lightness to this that I really love.

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I think generally speaking, the action is not well shot, but the direction apart from that, I think is really, really quite good.

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I think the Daleks look shoddy, like the props are really kind of a bit beaten up and we've talked about that before.

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I think Davros's mask is lamentably bad and the performance of David Gooderson, who is the barman in episode one of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

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I think they'll do a valiant term.

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Oh, no, absolutely.

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I think there's a lot to be said for it.

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But I want to say the other wrecker is Roy Skelton, whose Dalek voices are Peter Messaline standard terrible.

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Like they are really shockingly bad.

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And they're boring in monotone.

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Wisher is so much better, and obviously the 2 originals are so much better.

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But like he just kills the Dalek dialogue absolutely dead, I think.

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Do you think, because he seems to be shouting it all the time, doesn't he?

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And there's these long pauses, even, like, do not move.

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Yeah, he delivers too slowly move.

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Like it's it's like, come on, come on.

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We need to get on with the type thing.

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But back to Goodison, you're right. top of the mask is okay.

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And I remember seeing it as a kid when he starts to move his hand and the look and he looked sort of like it.

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Like I thought it was the same actor.

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And then when he speaks slowly, he's okay.

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But as it goes on, it's, I thought he was a voice artist per se.

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I think that's the thing, but that's what was on his CV, voice artist per se.

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He doesn't say very true, Peter.

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He doesn't sound enough like Michael Wisher at certain points and that sort of takes me out of the reality of it.

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That's a minor thing to me.

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To be fair, he's been in the garage for how many years.

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Well, it's the get out of Drow Free card, isn't it?

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We exterminate him 4.5 years ago, but you know, oh, there's backup systems.

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I'm not what I was for.

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There is no excuse for the Davros Mask and the Daleks to be in that state.

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It's one of those things which Graham Williams, he gets his reputation for shoddiness because little things like that slip through.

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You know, there's no excuse for the Daleks to look so bad and have bits chipped off them.

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But I will say, this is my favourite garlic colour scheme.

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That kind of that very light gray looks amazing on them, I think, and I'm sad that it doesn't come back.

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It might be the best colour scheme of all.

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Maybe the victory of the Daleks Ironsides, but yeah, I really like it.

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Isn't it funny how Graham Williams during his time in the show, there's not many things that come back.

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There's this, and then there's 2 episodes slash 2 episodes of the invasion of time where you've got the Santarans, and they look a bit shoddy compared to the original.

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And there's been real no continuity for some time, like we had the master back in season 14, and then you've got to go back again to Tom's 1st season, really.

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I mean, the timelines have always been in the background, but it's interesting like over since the 1st year of Philip Hinchcliffe, like with then unit going.

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Like there's been less and less Doctor Who continuity, it's here, obviously, the Time Lords and that.

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But in the Graham Williams time, there's not a lot of it.

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And it's funny, the continuity here too, and we'll get onto it a little bit later, but it is kind of strange.

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They don't get it right or they don't get it any more right than they feel that they need to.

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One of the things that you taught me about what makes a good production, Peter, is that because the sets are in view all the time and they really make a difference to just how the show looks, the sets here are like the sets in Blake 7.

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They are more detailed and more complicated, and maybe a bit more interesting even than Genesis of Daleks.

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Like Genesis of Daleks is a very assured production and it just generally much better executed than this, you know, it's in control of its tone.

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It kind of knows what it's doing.

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But the sets are vastly, vastly more detailed and interesting.

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And you've got heaps, more location stuff, you've got the mines, I think, are really amazingly good.

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So there's a lot going for it visually.

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There's attempts to make the Daleks interesting by shooting them from below, which we've said always works.

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The Daleks move around very quickly in studio, the choreography is sort of quite good.

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I don't know.

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Like there are some problems with the production, but there's so much to like about it as well. think it's a very handsome story.

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Apart from those regrettable lapses that we've talked about.

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It looks good.

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The location filming is all there on screen and I think is choreographed quite well too.

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Like you have Daleks moving at different levels, like up on sand dunes and then down in the foreground.

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It's things that we haven't necessarily seen with the Daleks before.

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I don't get why people have a go at this story about not looking good.

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There's one or 2 things that don't look good, but in totality it's very nice.

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We must mention that the Daleks have their, what do we call their guns?

170
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There must be a special word for them in the Dalek book.

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Their egg whisks set to lower yourself gently to the ground.

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Aren't they the fluid neutralisers?

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It's interesting what you said, Nathan, about the comparison with Genesis, because I think destiny suffers by obviously it's dealt a bad hand by being a sequel to Genesis, because in that it has to bear comparison to one of the greatest Doctor Who stories of all time.

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So it's always going to be a bit patchy.

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It does come off wanting in some ways, you know, David Gooderson's performance, obviously.

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But I think Terry has supplied all of the elements and the visuals for it to succeed.

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And I think it would have succeeded beautifully if a couple more of those things had been realised properly.

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See, the other thing too, Peter, is like, you've got the joke of the Daleks unable to get up that shaft, you know, like, they can't fly yet, or the doctor's hat over the eye stalk, and then, and then, and it's those little things that I think that undermine the dark.

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They undermine them because they're pinpointing obvious flaws that you try not to pinpoint.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Yeah, hanging a hat on it actually is to speak.

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Well, it's a thing that you could do.

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Yeah.

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I don't know.

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It is a thing that you can do, but sometimes it's just better to fix the problem rather than hanging a hat on it, hanging a hat on it, is funny and it's knowing and meta and stuff, and that's what the show is doing this season, and this era, but this season in particular.

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But in a way all you are highlighting is the big problems with the Daleks.

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And part of the repair job that Russell has to do in series one in 2005 is to kind of neutralise all of those flaws that have been introduced over the years that have made the Daleks slightly, not a laughingstock, but like a little bit less terrifying than they were originally meant to be.

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And it's also interesting, I think, that episode one is clearly the best of the four.

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It's very atmospheric.

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I mean, Terry always does great episode ones.

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He has that formula where the doctrine co arrive.

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They sort of look around and they kind of gather information and deduce where they are.

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They get separated from tartars. a dead body that gives them clues.

194
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Absolutely.

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A magnodon or whatever.

196
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They have to take tablets for radiation.

197
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That's right.

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They get separated from the TARDIS.

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They get separated from each other.

200
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There's usually something stalking the companion, which turns out to be a friend.

201
00:16:55.980 --> 00:17:01.679
And then at the end of the 1st episode, you get the big reveal of whoever the monster is, generally the Daleks.

202
00:17:02.340 --> 00:17:08.039
This episode one, like Death to the Daleks episode one, is particularly atmospheric.

203
00:17:08.220 --> 00:17:09.779
It's very effective scene setter.

204
00:17:09.839 --> 00:17:11.099
It was meant to be shot at night.

205
00:17:11.220 --> 00:17:21.119
Obviously, they couldn't afford that, but that would have made more of kind of the talk of zombies and the burial party with kind of, you know, flame and fire and things like that.

206
00:17:21.839 --> 00:17:27.420
And I think Tyson's appearance, which sort of the chalky whiteness to make him look like a zombie.

207
00:17:27.720 --> 00:17:32.640
There's a reason that this story succeeds very well when the Daleks aren't on screen.

208
00:17:33.660 --> 00:17:35.099
But you're right, Peter.

209
00:17:35.160 --> 00:17:38.279
Like episode one, which I watched today, is great.

210
00:17:38.339 --> 00:17:46.859
Like, I just love them walking around and just all the little touches and the camera movements and the chalk on all of the extras, like that dust is really effective.

211
00:17:46.859 --> 00:17:49.680
And I don't think it suffers because it's not at night.

212
00:17:49.920 --> 00:18:01.440
I just think it looks great and holding that the dalek reveal and the scaro reveal to the last few minutes is a good thing and of course we also get our boney M robots coming in.

213
00:18:02.339 --> 00:18:03.960
Well, I mean, I think what's great.

214
00:18:04.019 --> 00:18:13.200
I think what's really incredible about this and what he gets absolutely right is that every all 3 cliffhangers are amazingly good and they all introduce a new element.

215
00:18:13.259 --> 00:18:19.859
So it's 1st we have the Daleks, who have been promised by the opening credits, the show title.

216
00:18:20.279 --> 00:18:21.599
Then we get Davros.

217
00:18:21.660 --> 00:18:34.500
And then the 3rd one is not the moment we discover that the Mofelons are evil, but where we actually see the Mofelons do something evil, where Roman is under threat because of something that the Mofelons did.

218
00:18:34.799 --> 00:18:37.859
And so it's now the Mofelons are on their evil stuff.

219
00:18:38.099 --> 00:18:42.240
Well, when we say Mavelins, we mean Susan, Danielle and her career objectives.

220
00:18:43.619 --> 00:18:47.700
But I definitely, I do find, thank you, Richard.

221
00:18:47.700 --> 00:18:52.319
I do find that one hilarious because like the countdown is like at 34 or something like that.

222
00:18:52.740 --> 00:18:56.940
Like normally it's like 10 seconds to go, but it's quite a, it's quite relaxed.

223
00:18:58.799 --> 00:19:02.099
But actually, that's a good point, the insouciance of the leads.

224
00:19:02.579 --> 00:19:04.380
It's almost avengers like.

225
00:19:04.440 --> 00:19:09.839
And I doubt the time I thought, this is the most Diana Rig and Pat McNee season we've ever had on.

226
00:19:09.900 --> 00:19:12.660
They don't, it's just that edge of being bored.

227
00:19:12.960 --> 00:19:13.920
Yes, correct.

228
00:19:14.339 --> 00:19:15.900
Except Layla does a good screen.

229
00:19:16.079 --> 00:19:25.319
Yeah, Lala does a good scream when she falls down the shaft, then she does some crying when she's being threatened by the Daleks, but it would have said doesn't work, but it does work.

230
00:19:25.319 --> 00:19:26.460
It does.

231
00:19:26.700 --> 00:19:35.099
But it is that rig style impunity where she's kind of aware that she can just walk off, stroll off the set whenever she likes.

232
00:19:35.160 --> 00:19:38.220
And so it's it's not peril.

233
00:19:38.279 --> 00:19:47.940
Like there's a fair amount of stuff where the companion subplot is being stalked by someone horrible who scares the hell out of them and then turns out to be a friend.

234
00:19:48.000 --> 00:19:48.779
We've talked about that.

235
00:19:48.839 --> 00:19:57.779
You talked about that mere moments ago, Peter, but Romana isn't a peril monkey, like Romana isn't really there just to be threatened.

236
00:19:57.779 --> 00:20:04.259
She is an agent in this and she's smart and like a much more chill about things than her predecessors.

237
00:20:05.339 --> 00:20:10.619
I'm going to disagree with you about her acting in the scene where she's interrogated by the Daleks.

238
00:20:10.680 --> 00:20:11.640
I don't buy it now.

239
00:20:11.700 --> 00:20:12.480
I think it's too much.

240
00:20:12.960 --> 00:20:16.200
Did you buy it at 8 though, because that's who she said she was pitching it for?

241
00:20:16.559 --> 00:20:18.779
I might have bought it back then. less so now.

242
00:20:19.200 --> 00:20:21.539
Her screams are much better than Mary's screams.

243
00:20:22.920 --> 00:20:28.200
It does remind me of poor Barbara back in the sync plunger at her.

244
00:20:28.200 --> 00:20:29.279
That really worked.

245
00:20:30.000 --> 00:20:30.779
Wow, incredible.

246
00:20:31.019 --> 00:20:33.299
But I love the different touches with Romana in this.

247
00:20:33.359 --> 00:20:39.240
Like, you know, when we had playing paper scissor rocks. like that was just brilliant as an eight-year-old, like because we could play that.

248
00:20:39.240 --> 00:20:40.140
And she was great.

249
00:20:40.259 --> 00:20:45.180
And I love the fact that Tom runs down the sandbank, but she just strolls in from off camera to the left or whatever.

250
00:20:45.240 --> 00:20:51.539
Like, you know, and then she's so clever enough that she can stop both of her hearts, like, and I thought, oh, no, they can't kill her off.

251
00:20:51.539 --> 00:20:52.680
And then that was so great.

252
00:20:52.740 --> 00:20:57.480
I mean, that's what's so wonderful about her in this story, all those things and her wonderful outfit.

253
00:20:57.960 --> 00:21:00.299
Todd, that mention of rock, paper, scissors.

254
00:21:00.359 --> 00:21:11.099
I think we talked on our Terence Dix season, in state of decay, about Terence highlighting things like continental shift, which, as a schoolboy, I didn't know anything about.

255
00:21:11.160 --> 00:21:14.279
And I was fascinated by it because that was presented to me in Doctor Who.

256
00:21:14.759 --> 00:21:20.880
When I watched this as an 8 year old, rock, paper, scissors, fascinated me because I'd never really come across it before.

257
00:21:20.880 --> 00:21:28.140
And I think Terry, like Terence Dix, has his finger on the pulse of what will thrill a child audience.

258
00:21:28.200 --> 00:21:34.140
And that's a very simple visual way of presenting the dilemma at the heart of the story.

259
00:21:34.380 --> 00:21:42.119
Oddly, also, it kind of Venn diagrams with several interests in my life because I watch a lot of K-pop extra content.

260
00:21:42.839 --> 00:21:45.900
And when K-pop groups are doing their extra content.

261
00:21:45.960 --> 00:21:50.460
They do a version of rock, paper, scissors to kind of decide who's going to be on what team and that.

262
00:21:50.519 --> 00:21:52.920
And, of course, rock paper says is Chinese.

263
00:21:52.980 --> 00:21:55.200
So it's very popular in Korea.

264
00:21:55.440 --> 00:21:57.119
And they call it Guy Bible.

265
00:21:57.420 --> 00:22:08.640
And so when they do the rock paper scissors, they say go Bible, and they do it so quickly that they have already eliminated 5 people and decided their teams while I'm still trying to keep up with who won which round.

266
00:22:08.759 --> 00:22:11.039
So it sort of then diagrams with a lot of my life.

267
00:22:11.099 --> 00:22:13.380
It's really interesting, rock, paper, scissors.

268
00:22:13.440 --> 00:22:21.599
And I think, you know, it's the charm of Doctor Who, that it can present something like that to show children what the stakes are of the story.

269
00:22:22.920 --> 00:22:27.240
In fact, it's been pointed out, I think, by people that it doesn't make any sense.

270
00:22:27.299 --> 00:22:34.380
Like there's no logical next decision and you can't sort of 2nd guess the person based on what they chose before.

271
00:22:34.440 --> 00:22:38.400
Like it just, it doesn't work. showing an algorithm of some kind.

272
00:22:38.700 --> 00:22:39.420
Exactly right.

273
00:22:39.599 --> 00:22:47.099
What's clever about it is that it makes it clear what the problem is, not because that's how rock, paper, scissors works.

274
00:22:47.160 --> 00:22:48.240
But here's the issue.

275
00:22:48.299 --> 00:22:54.299
And I think that what he's doing is last story, it was Nazis versus Nazis.

276
00:22:54.359 --> 00:23:04.740
It was a group of evil, bad people fighting another group of evil, bad people and they'd been fighting forever and they were at an ampas and how are we going to break the stalemate?

277
00:23:05.460 --> 00:23:18.119
Here we have the same thing, but in the meantime, the Khalids have turned themselves into robots, and I don't think that Terry has forgotten what the Daleks are, but they have been turned into robots.

278
00:23:18.180 --> 00:23:20.400
They were programmed by Davros.

279
00:23:20.579 --> 00:23:26.039
So they're not literally robots, but they don't think imaginatively anymore.

280
00:23:26.339 --> 00:23:27.599
They're slaves to their program.

281
00:23:27.720 --> 00:23:33.480
Yeah, because I get hung up on the fact that it's robots versus robots and, oh, they're not robots really.

282
00:23:33.539 --> 00:23:36.180
And then the Movillans, who created those robots?

283
00:23:36.240 --> 00:23:40.680
Like, was there one created and they just decided to create more, like when you start to sort of lord, like that?

284
00:23:41.039 --> 00:23:44.039
And, you know, where are the files of it all as well?

285
00:23:44.400 --> 00:23:46.799
But no, I think that's a good point, actually, that we've made about that.

286
00:23:47.460 --> 00:23:53.339
Unfortunately, what we learned from this story is that a war between 2 groups of robots is actually really a bit boring.

287
00:23:55.920 --> 00:23:59.160
Not as good as a war between 2 groups of horrible Nazis.

288
00:23:59.759 --> 00:24:01.920
And in fact, he again hangs a hat on that.

289
00:24:01.980 --> 00:24:06.299
There's that moment where Commander Cheryl, who is amazing, by the way, pick a striker.

290
00:24:06.299 --> 00:24:07.259
Unbelievable.

291
00:24:07.319 --> 00:24:08.099
Well, get on to him.

292
00:24:08.160 --> 00:24:09.960
Yeah, I think he's one of the best we've ever had.

293
00:24:10.079 --> 00:24:11.460
Yeah, yeah, quite extraordinary.

294
00:24:12.299 --> 00:24:13.019
Cheekbones.

295
00:24:13.140 --> 00:24:13.559
Yes.

296
00:24:13.799 --> 00:24:17.220
It can heal slaves by looking at him.

297
00:24:17.700 --> 00:24:24.000
So he orders Tony a sober to go and sacrifice his life, which is a standard thing like Dortmund or Gary.

298
00:24:24.059 --> 00:24:26.099
Tutonia sober, it generally happens to be.

299
00:24:26.160 --> 00:24:27.180
Yeah, yeah.

300
00:24:27.240 --> 00:24:31.440
And so he has to go and sacrifice his life and he just says, yes, and there's no heroism in it.

301
00:24:31.500 --> 00:24:35.279
There's nothing to admire in it because it's just robots following orders.

302
00:24:35.339 --> 00:24:48.960
So that humanity that's lacking, that everything that makes a conflict noble or interesting or that gives it some kind of moral ways is absent here because it's just 2 big computers fighting one another.

303
00:24:50.220 --> 00:24:55.259
That logical stalemate idea is um, a standard in sci-fi.

304
00:24:55.500 --> 00:24:58.319
I think the original must have been an Asimov story or one of those.

305
00:24:58.680 --> 00:25:00.900
I think it's a nice application in Doctor Who.

306
00:25:00.960 --> 00:25:04.619
I think the question is whether the Daleks are the right fit for that story.

307
00:25:04.680 --> 00:25:11.279
It seems like it should have been the cybermen or something like that. genuinely a genuinely robotic foe.

308
00:25:11.640 --> 00:25:26.579
But I also think that an evolution of the Daleks into machine only creatures who go back to their creator to kind of get some of their organic history back would have been an interesting story, maybe a blind alley in some way.

309
00:25:26.759 --> 00:25:29.400
But I just, I don't think that's the story that we're getting here.

310
00:25:29.460 --> 00:25:30.779
It would have been more interesting if we had.

311
00:25:31.200 --> 00:25:36.299
But I mean, symbolically, and just from the look of things, they have turned themselves into machines.

312
00:25:36.359 --> 00:25:44.819
Like the Daleks don't think like people, they don't have, you know, hunches, they don't take wild risks, they don't feel anything.

313
00:25:44.880 --> 00:25:46.740
They narrow their eye stalks at people anymore.

314
00:25:47.099 --> 00:25:48.839
Yeah, I liked when they used to do that.

315
00:25:48.960 --> 00:25:50.220
I miss when they glint.

316
00:25:51.359 --> 00:25:53.279
And so it is that.

317
00:25:53.339 --> 00:25:54.900
There's that human creativity.

318
00:25:54.960 --> 00:26:09.059
And I like as well that it parallels the doctor and Davros, which is present, you know, a theme present in Genesis of the Dialects, and it does even attempt to give the doctor and Davros some chat time.

319
00:26:09.839 --> 00:26:15.660
But I have to say that it is really just going over stuff that was done in Genesis.

320
00:26:15.720 --> 00:26:18.059
The conversation is almost identical.

321
00:26:18.359 --> 00:26:20.460
It's definitely a reprise to please the audience.

322
00:26:20.819 --> 00:26:21.539
It works for that.

323
00:26:21.960 --> 00:26:22.319
Yeah.

324
00:26:22.380 --> 00:26:24.240
And, you know, there's...

325
00:26:24.660 --> 00:26:33.839
I mean, there's a reason why Moffat stages the doctor and Davros to have chat time during his run because that works so well in Genesis.

326
00:26:33.900 --> 00:26:46.980
It doesn't work quite so well here, and I think it's because goodison is not very good, because the content is not as interesting, but because I think Tom is larking about too much for it.

327
00:26:47.099 --> 00:26:50.039
He does do some serious stuff here.

328
00:26:50.640 --> 00:26:56.759
He does take some of it seriously, but he's doing business during this conversation.

329
00:26:57.000 --> 00:27:12.839
The moment of the moment of sheer aggression and bile when Tom stares at them and stares them down with the darkeners, you know, threatens to kill them all off and says, I'm only having fun because this is disastrous and you are all disastrous and it's not going to end well for anybody.

330
00:27:12.900 --> 00:27:13.980
You can see the rage.

331
00:27:14.279 --> 00:27:21.660
There's a lot of rage in Tom in this one and it's probably because of reasons that have nothing to do with the script, but it really, really works.

332
00:27:22.019 --> 00:27:24.000
I do want to get back to the script.

333
00:27:24.059 --> 00:27:28.380
I know the nub of this is it's a Terry Nation story, but maybe this is a question for Peter.

334
00:27:28.440 --> 00:27:31.319
I remember reading Greaves.

335
00:27:31.740 --> 00:27:32.579
What's his name?

336
00:27:32.819 --> 00:27:33.599
Ken Greve?

337
00:27:33.660 --> 00:27:34.319
Ken Greve.

338
00:27:34.380 --> 00:27:40.380
Yeah, Ken Greaves notes on what was the standard of the script that they got, Williams.

339
00:27:40.380 --> 00:27:46.380
When you say reading his notes, Do you mean in the only interview he gave, which was with me in 1996?

340
00:27:46.440 --> 00:27:48.119
That's the one...

341
00:27:48.180 --> 00:27:57.240
Thinking back and he said, you know, nation had buggered off to do MacGyver, so to speak, and there was episode one and just notes for the other ones.

342
00:27:57.420 --> 00:27:58.619
What do recall from that?

343
00:27:59.220 --> 00:28:05.279
I mean, I think that was probably true that when he joined, there might have been an episode one and notes for the others.

344
00:28:05.339 --> 00:28:08.039
But that doesn't mean that there was only ever notes for the others.

345
00:28:08.099 --> 00:28:10.799
It just meant that Terry was in the middle of moving to the US.

346
00:28:11.519 --> 00:28:23.640
Destiny was the 2nd last piece of work he ever did for British television, the last being fittingly, the Blake 7 episode terminal, which is up amongst his very best work ever.

347
00:28:24.900 --> 00:28:25.259
Yes.

348
00:28:25.259 --> 00:28:30.900
And so I think, you know, Terry, as ever, he wrote quickly, he gave them what they needed and he bugged off.

349
00:28:30.960 --> 00:28:37.019
And so, you know, it's it's highly likely that there was a script and then a storyline for the other three, when Ken Greve joined the production.

350
00:28:37.259 --> 00:28:40.500
I'm glad that you talked about that because I was saying to Nathan beforehand.

351
00:28:40.559 --> 00:28:44.759
Like, it's funny that this is the end of Terry Nation on the show in 1979.

352
00:28:44.940 --> 00:28:56.700
He doesn't give us any 80s scripts, although there's obviously approval for the Daleks and Sabre takes it in a certain direction, which picks up from, you know, the end of this with Daros been frozen.

353
00:28:56.940 --> 00:29:04.559
I was just surprised that Terry never actually did come back or try to do another script, but you've just answered my question there.

354
00:29:05.039 --> 00:29:14.099
And it certainly then accounts for the amount of humour that's in this is obviously coming from Douglas Adams, like, was Douglas the one that put in rock, paper, scissors, or did Terry suggest it, you know?

355
00:29:14.220 --> 00:29:15.180
Or enhance it.

356
00:29:15.299 --> 00:29:16.200
You know what I'm saying?

357
00:29:16.259 --> 00:29:20.039
Like, there's things where Tom is very serious, and then other times where he's very jovial.

358
00:29:20.099 --> 00:29:30.299
I mean, watching when he takes out his book to read when he's underneath the polystyrene boulder and then does that double take when the Mavellans turn up, like, you know.

359
00:29:30.420 --> 00:29:31.559
No, he checks his page.

360
00:29:31.619 --> 00:29:34.559
He checks and remembers the page number and then puts the book down.

361
00:29:34.859 --> 00:29:36.119
So he sees them.

362
00:29:36.180 --> 00:29:39.839
Then he checks what page is on so he can pick up later and then he puts the book down.

363
00:29:40.200 --> 00:29:41.819
I just thought that, I just laugh.

364
00:29:41.880 --> 00:29:42.240
I just laugh.

365
00:29:54.599 --> 00:29:57.960
I think that rock, paper, scissors, almost certainly, Terry, don't you, Peter?

366
00:29:58.619 --> 00:29:59.279
I think so.

367
00:29:59.759 --> 00:30:05.819
Like I said before, I think he was attuned to the kind of thing that would be fun and interesting for a child audience.

368
00:30:06.240 --> 00:30:18.359
I think it probably came out of discussions with Douglas Adams and Graham Williams because they have said that in discussing it, they talked about the theory of 2 opposing fleets that were matched very well.

369
00:30:18.539 --> 00:30:27.299
And then Terry basically came back with exactly the idea that they had talked about rather than some kind of variation or development of it, which is fine.

370
00:30:27.839 --> 00:30:29.160
I mean, it's a great choice.

371
00:30:29.220 --> 00:30:30.119
I think it is good.

372
00:30:30.359 --> 00:30:31.859
I do think it is very good.

373
00:30:31.920 --> 00:30:39.420
And I think it's unsurprising that Sayward takes it up in the next Stalek story, which is, you know, many, many years later.

374
00:30:39.720 --> 00:30:49.740
It would have been less surprising if he hadn't because the 80s were so continuity obsessed that I think they couldn't have just told another garlic story.

375
00:30:49.799 --> 00:30:52.200
They had to continue the same Dalek story that we were watching.

376
00:30:52.559 --> 00:30:53.640
It's a Nathan question.

377
00:30:53.700 --> 00:30:54.900
Which one is the most fun?

378
00:30:55.440 --> 00:30:55.920
Yeah.

379
00:30:56.339 --> 00:30:58.079
This is really properly fun.

380
00:30:58.319 --> 00:31:04.619
And I think it's fun despite, even at the time, me being aware that they were throwing the continuity away a bit.

381
00:31:05.400 --> 00:31:11.940
And like there was no reason in the 1980s that you would expect that they would recreate the sets.

382
00:31:12.000 --> 00:31:16.920
That's just not how things work, that all you have a different design up and they're going to do the sets.

383
00:31:17.099 --> 00:31:26.819
It's not like Moffatt in the magician's apprentice going back and ensuring that the Dalek city looked like the original Daleks.

384
00:31:26.880 --> 00:31:27.660
Although he would.

385
00:31:27.779 --> 00:31:28.380
He did.

386
00:31:29.160 --> 00:31:34.140
Oh, so you're talking about where they find Dabros and all that in terms of continuity to Genesis.

387
00:31:34.559 --> 00:31:42.599
Yeah, so it's almost as if this is a completely different time that Frost got buried on Scaro because it really shares nothing in common.

388
00:31:42.660 --> 00:31:47.160
Suddenly he's on level three and the doctor's aware of this shaft that goes down to the ground.

389
00:31:47.220 --> 00:31:50.339
We're in the car-led city, we're going to talk about... skeleton right next to it.

390
00:31:50.460 --> 00:31:52.380
No, we don't talk about the bunker.

391
00:31:52.440 --> 00:31:56.880
We talk about the Khaled city because it's been 5 years and let's not be picky about things.

392
00:31:57.240 --> 00:32:08.039
And so this isn't in any real sense, a sequel to Genesis of the Daleks because none of the concerns of Genesis of the Daleks are present at all in this.

393
00:32:08.099 --> 00:32:10.319
It has some loose things in common.

394
00:32:10.440 --> 00:32:12.539
We pick up on Davros.

395
00:32:12.599 --> 00:32:17.700
And what it also does is it kind of makes previous dialect history impossible, I think.

396
00:32:17.940 --> 00:32:31.920
It is very strange to imagine that somehow we get from Genesis of the Daleks to here to the Daleks 1000000s of years in the future, in their city, you know, on an irradiated petrified jungle planner.

397
00:32:32.819 --> 00:32:38.460
It's not the sort of thing that Terry is in any way interested in and he's right not to be, I think.

398
00:32:39.000 --> 00:32:43.859
No, and I think the only reason that we get this story is that Terry loved the character of Davros.

399
00:32:43.920 --> 00:32:44.339
Yes.

400
00:32:44.339 --> 00:32:51.960
Familiarity with the Daleks has kind of dulled us to their brilliant, you know, top 5 monster in all of fiction.

401
00:32:52.319 --> 00:32:57.720
But I think it also familiarity with them dulled Terry to their brilliants a little bit.

402
00:32:58.140 --> 00:33:01.680
And so Daleks can function very well without Davros.

403
00:33:01.740 --> 00:33:02.819
David Whittaker proved it.

404
00:33:02.880 --> 00:33:05.279
Terry's proved it many times in the past.

405
00:33:05.400 --> 00:33:13.619
And Davros is an attractive character, but he's counterproductive for what the Daleks are because he turns them into henchmen and underlings.

406
00:33:13.619 --> 00:33:14.400
Yes, they're cool.

407
00:33:14.400 --> 00:33:15.599
And they become, that's right.

408
00:33:15.660 --> 00:33:18.240
They become cyphers rather than schemers.

409
00:33:18.539 --> 00:33:24.539
And I think that won't be remedied until remembrance of the Daleks or possibly Dalek in 2005.

410
00:33:25.380 --> 00:33:34.079
And I think there's something meta going on there with the fact that the Daleks had now become robotic and aren't individual characters in themselves.

411
00:33:34.140 --> 00:33:36.420
There's something which is influencing the storytelling.

412
00:33:36.539 --> 00:33:37.619
Such a good point, Peter.

413
00:33:37.680 --> 00:33:39.480
You've said that before in your articles.

414
00:33:39.539 --> 00:33:49.019
I'm thinking back now too, when you're writing for the magazine, that they stop being centred to the narrative and simply become a cypher for whatever the text is.

415
00:33:49.079 --> 00:33:51.720
Now, I'm just thinking, actually, Peter's just made me think.

416
00:33:51.720 --> 00:34:00.000
In modern notes, are they Odysseus's crewmen and Davros's Penelope weaving his cobwebs for the last.

417
00:34:01.259 --> 00:34:05.819
But yeah, they don't have presents other than actually looking quite terrific and doing cute things.

418
00:34:06.839 --> 00:34:09.840
But yeah, it's a memory of how good they are in this one.

419
00:34:10.500 --> 00:34:21.960
At one point, the Daleks say that it would be illogical for the doctor to sacrifice himself by blowing up the bomb while he's holding Davros hostage.

420
00:34:22.079 --> 00:34:30.539
And what is a pretty great scene, except that Davros absolutely pulls rank on them and is ordering them to kill themselves.

421
00:34:31.079 --> 00:34:31.920
Do you know what I mean?

422
00:34:31.980 --> 00:34:40.860
Like he's, you know, the next episode, he's ordering them to go kill themselves and they just go off and do that, but he seems to enjoy being in charge.

423
00:34:41.340 --> 00:34:45.780
Yeah, the scene after they take the bomb and go off down the end of the corridor and destroy themselves.

424
00:34:46.380 --> 00:34:47.340
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

425
00:34:47.400 --> 00:35:06.780
And I don't think, I actually, I'm not sure that that's just a bug, you know, like an error in the script that Terry wasn't thinking carefully enough, that, that, that is their default position that self-sacrifice is illogical, but he's Davros and he's going to make them do it because they defeated him before and now he's going to get it.

426
00:35:07.019 --> 00:35:09.960
We have seen them auto-destruct.

427
00:35:10.019 --> 00:35:10.440
Yeah, yeah.

428
00:35:10.980 --> 00:35:12.300
At the slightest pretext.

429
00:35:13.320 --> 00:35:16.199
Had a bit of blue tack on the IP or something, you know?

430
00:35:16.800 --> 00:35:17.519
It's all over.

431
00:35:20.519 --> 00:35:23.280
Can we talk a little bit about the ratings for this story as well?

432
00:35:23.639 --> 00:35:24.059
Yeah.

433
00:35:24.059 --> 00:35:30.360
Just before we get on to Terry and sort of, you know, his remarkable, wonderful legacy for the series.

434
00:35:31.079 --> 00:35:35.400
It makes me happy that Destiny the Daleks is the 2nd most watched Doctor Who story of all time.

435
00:35:35.820 --> 00:35:36.480
Is it really?

436
00:35:36.480 --> 00:35:37.440
Yeah.

437
00:35:37.500 --> 00:35:40.500
So obviously the most watched is City of Death, which comes next.

438
00:35:40.980 --> 00:35:47.639
But we do know that it's all artificially inflated because of the strikes on the other channel, but you're right.

439
00:35:47.699 --> 00:35:49.199
You know, so many people are watching it.

440
00:35:49.320 --> 00:35:54.300
But at the same time, so many people, other people may see flaws in things.

441
00:35:54.360 --> 00:36:04.380
I don't know if we all took stock of what was going on on television as much as what we do in terms of analysis these days, but have you got those figures in front of you at all?

442
00:36:05.820 --> 00:36:08.699
Well, Daleks average 13.5 million.

443
00:36:08.699 --> 00:36:11.699
City of Death averaged 14.5 million.

444
00:36:11.760 --> 00:36:17.099
The next contender in Doctor Who terms, whose Voyage of the Damned, which is 13.31.

445
00:36:17.340 --> 00:36:21.059
So it doesn't reach, it doesn't scale the heights of Daleks.

446
00:36:21.480 --> 00:36:25.920
And I think, you know, it's common to talk about the viewing figures were inflated.

447
00:36:26.579 --> 00:36:36.539
I mean, yes, there were more people available to watch because there was a strike on ITV and so there was literally dead air if you turned to ITV.

448
00:36:36.599 --> 00:36:40.079
But also we think about what a different world it was when it came to television.

449
00:36:40.139 --> 00:36:49.860
We talked these days about the fragmentation of the audience and how there's just not an available, you know, a big enough pool of people to watch one thing at one time.

450
00:36:50.699 --> 00:36:52.500
Back then there were only 3 channels.

451
00:36:52.559 --> 00:36:55.559
There was BBC One, BBC 2 and ITV.

452
00:36:55.800 --> 00:37:00.840
And one of those, BBC 2, was considered an arts channel along the lines of radio 3.

453
00:37:01.079 --> 00:37:04.739
So the other side was literally the only place for viewers to go.

454
00:37:04.800 --> 00:37:06.059
If there's no ITV.

455
00:37:06.300 --> 00:37:09.599
If you wanted to watch TV, you were watching Destiny of the Daleks.

456
00:37:10.559 --> 00:37:23.579
And by the way, I think, as well, in thinking about this, that there are 2 precipitous drops in ratings in the original landscape of Doctor Who, and it's not highlighted enough why.

457
00:37:24.059 --> 00:37:30.539
So there is an odd 2000000 viewer drop between the Keys of Mariners episodes four, and episodes five.

458
00:37:31.079 --> 00:37:31.500
Wow.

459
00:37:31.500 --> 00:37:37.860
And people have not sort of, you know, it goes from 10.4 to 8.one and then down into the 7s and the 6s.

460
00:37:37.860 --> 00:37:39.539
And people are like, well, that's mysterious.

461
00:37:39.840 --> 00:37:42.179
And the same things happens after season 19.

462
00:37:42.420 --> 00:37:45.960
Season 19 gets an average of like 9500000 viewers.

463
00:37:46.019 --> 00:37:48.059
Season 20 comes back and it's got 7.5 .

464
00:37:48.239 --> 00:37:49.619
And people go, well, why?

465
00:37:49.980 --> 00:37:52.320
The reason is that there's a new channel introduced.

466
00:37:52.619 --> 00:37:56.159
BBC 2 comes on the air during keys of Mariners.

467
00:37:56.159 --> 00:38:00.420
Channel 4 comes on the air between seasons 19 and 20.

468
00:38:01.079 --> 00:38:01.739
And that's the reason.

469
00:38:01.860 --> 00:38:08.280
That's why Doctor Who, in the 1980s, can't hope to get the same ratings that it was in the 60s and the 70s.

470
00:38:08.400 --> 00:38:10.800
It doesn't have that available audience pool.

471
00:38:11.099 --> 00:38:19.380
And I think the fact that destiny has such high ratings just points to the fact that the opposition, you know, what's on at the same time means everything.

472
00:38:20.519 --> 00:38:24.239
I think too, that it's inherent to Doctor Who that a lot of people watch it.

473
00:38:24.300 --> 00:38:37.079
Like, I think that the thing about it, the thing that makes it great is that over the years, so many 1000000s of people watched it, that it wasn't just watched by dedicated coteries of extreme nerds.

474
00:38:37.679 --> 00:38:38.340
I'm right here.

475
00:38:38.340 --> 00:38:39.599
Yeah, podcasts.

476
00:38:39.840 --> 00:38:44.579
But it was actually just watched by your mum and like basically everyone.

477
00:38:45.059 --> 00:38:51.239
And, you know, not all at the same time, not watched regularly by everyone, but at some point watched by everyone.

478
00:38:51.780 --> 00:39:00.179
And I think that that's the position that it comes back into when it comes back into the world in 2005, it's taking that role again.

479
00:39:00.599 --> 00:39:12.599
And I think that towards the end of both the classic series and the new series runs, it struggles because it's no longer, you know, it makes news, it makes headlines.

480
00:39:12.659 --> 00:39:13.440
Do you know what I mean?

481
00:39:13.500 --> 00:39:23.280
Like it is important in some way, but when it's only being watched by a small number of people, which is inevitably what happens as the audience fragments over time.

482
00:39:24.119 --> 00:39:28.739
I just think it struggles to kind of justify itself, I think.

483
00:39:35.880 --> 00:39:37.500
Can we talk about the Movellans?

484
00:39:37.800 --> 00:39:38.519
Absolutely.

485
00:39:38.579 --> 00:39:40.199
I always talk about the Movellans.

486
00:39:40.800 --> 00:39:43.619
I think that is it Peter Straker?

487
00:39:43.860 --> 00:39:44.280
Yes.

488
00:39:44.280 --> 00:39:45.300
He's beautiful.

489
00:39:45.539 --> 00:39:46.920
He is extraordinary.

490
00:39:46.980 --> 00:39:48.599
It's the steady gaze.

491
00:39:48.659 --> 00:39:51.539
Tom recognises an actor of...

492
00:39:51.659 --> 00:39:52.739
And indeed.

493
00:39:53.039 --> 00:39:57.360
And they don't break eye contact. the tension in the room.

494
00:39:57.900 --> 00:39:59.159
It's very sexy.

495
00:39:59.219 --> 00:40:01.619
I'm reminded of the original casino, right?

496
00:40:01.860 --> 00:40:05.579
Actually, with Peter Sellers and Ursula Andrus and the chemistry on screen.

497
00:40:05.639 --> 00:40:07.440
I'm sure they we really need to do that.

498
00:40:08.579 --> 00:40:12.900
There is that level of, it's coquettish game.

499
00:40:12.960 --> 00:40:16.440
It's kind of like a scorpion and a snake eyeing each other off, isn't it?

500
00:40:16.800 --> 00:40:18.360
I mean, it's quite extraordinary.

501
00:40:18.420 --> 00:40:24.179
He's really pretty and he looks a bit effeminate, like he looks a little bit androgynous, don't you think?

502
00:40:24.360 --> 00:40:28.619
I think the actor is gay. in that week.

503
00:40:28.679 --> 00:40:36.780
We need to talk about costume choices in how they actually work against the narrative, but I think ultimately make it much better and more fun.

504
00:40:37.320 --> 00:40:40.860
So everyone else is wearing space clothes like a Blake 7 episode.

505
00:40:41.460 --> 00:40:43.739
You know, like all the prisoners.

506
00:40:43.920 --> 00:40:44.519
Yeah, yeah.

507
00:40:44.579 --> 00:40:46.920
All the prisoners, like they're wearing sort of cast off Doctor Who.

508
00:40:47.519 --> 00:40:48.659
David Yip looks amazing though.

509
00:40:49.019 --> 00:40:49.980
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

510
00:40:50.699 --> 00:40:55.619
And so this weird disco tight thing, which is also very Blake 70.

511
00:40:55.800 --> 00:40:59.099
It's like what the altars wear or whatever in redemption.

512
00:40:59.880 --> 00:41:00.900
And it's very...

513
00:41:00.900 --> 00:41:03.059
Betan should have showed up in this stage, you think?

514
00:41:03.480 --> 00:41:05.519
But it's so, it's white on white on white.

515
00:41:05.579 --> 00:41:06.360
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

516
00:41:06.420 --> 00:41:07.619
Because that was one of June's signatures.

517
00:41:07.619 --> 00:41:08.519
It's just mono block.

518
00:41:08.699 --> 00:41:09.960
Did you at the time think?

519
00:41:10.199 --> 00:41:16.079
It was a bit later when it was repeated as a child, I thought, oh, they were built as pleasure robots.

520
00:41:16.559 --> 00:41:17.400
That's why they look like that.

521
00:41:17.820 --> 00:41:18.719
That's why they were so pretty.

522
00:41:18.840 --> 00:41:25.380
Well, it was quite a dark moment that when you stop and think, what kind of existence did these have?

523
00:41:26.039 --> 00:41:29.400
Can I just say, Richard, I've never thought of that.

524
00:41:29.699 --> 00:41:30.480
Ever think that?

525
00:41:30.480 --> 00:41:32.099
Yeah, but why would their creators?

526
00:41:32.219 --> 00:41:34.920
It's kind of like poor old SV7?

527
00:41:35.099 --> 00:41:36.059
What has he seen?

528
00:41:36.119 --> 00:41:36.659
I'm sorry.

529
00:41:37.260 --> 00:41:38.579
I'm the age I am now.

530
00:41:38.639 --> 00:41:40.500
That's the 1st time it's ever...

531
00:41:40.920 --> 00:41:42.420
Why would you design something to be so pretty?

532
00:41:42.480 --> 00:41:47.159
We go back to robots of death, but then these are ergonomically perfect.

533
00:41:47.579 --> 00:41:48.300
Tony is sober.

534
00:41:48.780 --> 00:41:50.460
So...

535
00:41:51.119 --> 00:41:53.460
I just love their little power pack thing.

536
00:41:54.119 --> 00:41:55.380
That's what I'm talking about.

537
00:41:55.800 --> 00:42:00.179
On the side, and you take them off, and you could go and play in the playground and pretend to be a Mavell and die.

538
00:42:00.239 --> 00:42:01.440
I don't think over all sides.

539
00:42:03.599 --> 00:42:08.280
But, I mean, they are, look, the Mevellans are the Dravins, in a way, aren't they?

540
00:42:08.340 --> 00:42:09.119
Yes, they are.

541
00:42:10.500 --> 00:42:24.119
So what we have here, as well as a kind of robot version of the conflict from Genesis of the Daleks, is, so we had, in Genesis of the Daleks, we had the surprise reveal that the thals are evil, right?

542
00:42:24.179 --> 00:42:28.019
That they're as bad as the as the as the carlades are.

543
00:42:28.500 --> 00:42:31.920
They push Sarah Jane off things and say, now, come on back down here.

544
00:42:32.579 --> 00:42:44.159
That's right. terrible people Here we get the, you know, the robot sort of matched against one another and so we get a robot version of that conflict.

545
00:42:44.219 --> 00:42:50.099
But what we also get is something that you couldn't have done with the thars was they stand in for the thars.

546
00:42:50.159 --> 00:42:55.380
They're the beautiful humanoid people that stand over against the Daleks.

547
00:42:55.440 --> 00:43:16.800
And so we think that we're recreating the dynamic from the original Dalek story, but then it turns out that the Movellans are just as evil, and they actually are planning to do one of the Dalek signature moves, which is to render an entire planet's biosphere uninhabitable, which is what they were going to do, say, in Planet of the Daleks, and in death to the Daleks.

548
00:43:17.460 --> 00:43:19.139
So they are super evil.

549
00:43:19.440 --> 00:43:23.519
Also, what they did in the Dalek master plan with their flamethrowers, et cetera, et cetera.

550
00:43:23.579 --> 00:43:27.840
Yeah, or what they had already done by the time of Dalek Invasion of Earth.

551
00:43:28.440 --> 00:43:30.659
So they are just as evil.

552
00:43:30.719 --> 00:43:32.219
I think is really great.

553
00:43:32.340 --> 00:43:41.280
And I do think, you know, the cheat, the cheat, the way they cheat their way out of the part 3 cliffhanger, which is, um, is it Lan or a Geller?

554
00:43:41.340 --> 00:43:43.739
One of them just says, oh, I didn't think Agella says.

555
00:43:43.800 --> 00:43:45.840
I think I didn't need to prime it or whatever.

556
00:43:46.440 --> 00:43:51.179
So we didn't actually need to kill her, so she was never actually in any danger and it's all fine.

557
00:43:53.340 --> 00:44:04.619
But that is because they're robots and, you know, they, it's not their operating out of malice, they're operating out of just sheer kind of a desire to survive.

558
00:44:05.579 --> 00:44:17.039
It's so funny talking about them because in my mind's eye, I always see them when they die, you know, when their hand is just over the, so stiff over the top of the, the, um, pillar or what it happens to be.

559
00:44:17.159 --> 00:44:18.000
I always see that.

560
00:44:18.059 --> 00:44:21.659
I always see them falling down and how they and that noise that goes with it.

561
00:44:21.960 --> 00:44:22.980
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

562
00:44:23.039 --> 00:44:32.820
And from the old series, and then from the new series where they're not even front and centre, I just see in my head, I can just see that sequence where they get flung up against the wall in the background.

563
00:44:32.940 --> 00:44:37.739
Well, it's amazing that they do work when they come back and you have to shoot around them a little bit.

564
00:44:37.800 --> 00:44:42.599
So when they come back in the pilot in the 1st story of season 10.

565
00:44:43.260 --> 00:44:54.480
You know, it's the same design because it's absolutely iconic, but the director does kind of shoot around them a little bit and doesn't foreground them and I think that's a deliberate choice by both Moffatt and the director there.

566
00:44:55.559 --> 00:44:59.340
I mean, Richard mentioned the pleasure robot D84 there.

567
00:44:59.579 --> 00:45:05.460
And I think it is very difficult to get right a robotic performance.

568
00:45:06.360 --> 00:45:16.260
And the scenes with Justin Mavellans, like, you know, after the end of part three, where Commander Sherrill is talking to Agella and Land, they're not boring scenes.

569
00:45:16.320 --> 00:45:18.420
They're not like cybermen talking to each other.

570
00:45:18.900 --> 00:45:37.980
And I think like D84, to give a robotic performance character, an interest is a very finely tuned skill, and we see it with someone like Brent Spiner in Star Trek, where data could have been a terrible character, but he's given all of those nuances, which are really interesting.

571
00:45:38.159 --> 00:45:43.260
I think the Mavellans en masse has been rehearsed very well into giving those performances.

572
00:45:43.440 --> 00:45:44.579
And Peter, I agree with you.

573
00:45:44.639 --> 00:45:46.019
I think they are just brilliant.

574
00:45:46.079 --> 00:45:51.539
And, you know, could you imagine, Eric, say, would bringing them back, like, you know, in the mid 80s?

575
00:45:51.599 --> 00:45:56.820
I think it could have been an absolute, like, disaster, like, excellent with the cyberman.

576
00:45:56.940 --> 00:45:57.420
You know what I mean?

577
00:45:57.780 --> 00:46:04.860
I mean, I just think it's rather wonderful how kind of period they are, how perfectly kind of 1979, 1980 they are.

578
00:46:04.920 --> 00:46:06.059
They are from Blake 7.

579
00:46:06.239 --> 00:46:07.500
They are 1979.

580
00:46:07.679 --> 00:46:09.659
Yeah, yeah, Disco. are that.

581
00:46:09.840 --> 00:46:10.500
Yeah, absolutely.

582
00:46:10.619 --> 00:46:12.780
They're from both Blake 7 and top of the pops.

583
00:46:13.860 --> 00:46:21.000
And one thing that I don't think is remarked upon very much is how diverse the cast is.

584
00:46:22.139 --> 00:46:27.480
Like really quite surprisingly, not only them, but also in the slaves that remark.

585
00:46:27.539 --> 00:46:28.079
Yes, as well.

586
00:46:28.139 --> 00:46:28.619
Yes, exactly.

587
00:46:28.679 --> 00:46:29.460
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

588
00:46:29.519 --> 00:46:29.760
Yeah.

589
00:46:29.820 --> 00:46:31.739
I think that is super interesting.

590
00:46:31.860 --> 00:46:36.000
And this seems to take place in a world that we haven't quite seen before.

591
00:46:36.179 --> 00:46:52.920
This is not the galaxy of Dalek Masterplan, but it is like a strange space future where people come from different planets and there's cargo ships and battle cruises and all of that sort of thing, which is not where we had the Daleks the last time we saw them.

592
00:46:53.519 --> 00:46:56.820
Do you think, Nathan, it's because the old stock equalisation act was enforced?

593
00:46:57.000 --> 00:46:58.019
I think it must have been that.

594
00:46:59.940 --> 00:47:01.920
Little Blake 7 reference there for you.

595
00:47:02.820 --> 00:47:16.860
I really like the fact that David Yip is amongst the sleeves on the planet because we so rarely get an Asian face in Docksu, even at this period, and he gives a really great performance in quite a minor role.

596
00:47:17.039 --> 00:47:19.320
And so that really elevates things, I think.

597
00:47:19.679 --> 00:47:23.219
He sells it well because if him and his offsider, I don't know her name.

598
00:47:23.460 --> 00:47:31.920
If they were really bad, like you'd lump them in with everybody else who just sort of, you know, put themselves down when they get exterminated. see star quality even in that scene.

599
00:47:32.280 --> 00:47:33.539
Yeah, they're both very good.

600
00:47:33.599 --> 00:47:35.159
I think they are really both very good.

601
00:47:36.239 --> 00:47:50.940
I actually think too, it's one of Terry Nation's nastiest moments, I think, which is where Romana dies, and I don't think it lands as nasty. probably the 1st time where I've realised quite how awful it is.

602
00:47:51.119 --> 00:47:53.039
And they say we can't just leave her there.

603
00:47:53.159 --> 00:47:56.219
And the Daleks say, no, she has to stay there.

604
00:47:56.280 --> 00:47:58.739
You finish the work period and then you dispose of her.

605
00:47:59.099 --> 00:48:15.420
And so all of the slaves are working alongside someone who has died of exhaustion and that person just has to lie there, there's a dead body here that we're mining around and then the work period ends and then we're permitted to go for a burial party.

606
00:48:15.480 --> 00:48:23.159
And I think that's a particular Terry Nation type of bleakness that you get, for instance, in the Dalek invasion of Earth.

607
00:48:23.400 --> 00:48:26.039
But it's also very blank because they can't actually bury the body.

608
00:48:26.099 --> 00:48:27.480
They just put rocks on it.

609
00:48:27.960 --> 00:48:28.739
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

610
00:48:28.800 --> 00:48:30.119
Yeah, I think that's very good too.

611
00:48:30.480 --> 00:48:31.260
I wouldn't be buried.

612
00:48:45.000 --> 00:48:54.780
Look, I always approached Terry Dation from the perspective of a huge Blake 7 fan, and I know that his work for Blake 7 is absolutely incredible.

613
00:48:55.320 --> 00:49:01.380
He gets bollocked a little bit for the fact that he does 13 episodes in the 1st season and lets the side down once or twice.

614
00:49:01.559 --> 00:49:08.400
But in the 2nd and 3rd series of Blake 7, he contributes 3 episodes season, and they are all incredible.

615
00:49:09.179 --> 00:49:20.219
And, you know, I also think that after Terry moved to the US, He must have pined for the days when he could sit down in a meeting with Roddy Marsh and emerged with a series commission and 13 episodes to write because that never happened again.

616
00:49:21.000 --> 00:49:25.800
I always knew he could deliver greatness because of that because I'd seen it in Blake 7.

617
00:49:26.099 --> 00:49:29.880
And he doesn't aspire to greatness, Terry.

618
00:49:30.059 --> 00:49:38.760
The art, I think, of what he does is intuiting a great format for the series, which he delivers in the Daleks, and then pitching it to its best advantage.

619
00:49:38.820 --> 00:49:43.920
So he single-handedly, as we've talked about, gave us the Doctor Who that we knew.

620
00:49:44.760 --> 00:49:48.000
And the thing is that everyone else knew that he was great as well.

621
00:49:48.179 --> 00:49:55.559
So you had David Whittaker there in the early days, considering Terry as the lead writer and saying, oh, you know, he should write every other story or every 3rd story.

622
00:49:55.619 --> 00:49:58.619
That was wish fulfilment, but they had faith in him.

623
00:49:58.679 --> 00:49:59.880
They knew what he could deliver.

624
00:50:00.360 --> 00:50:06.960
And all of these brilliant figures who we know, you know, Barry Letts, people like Philip Hinchcliffe and Robert Holmes.

625
00:50:07.199 --> 00:50:20.460
They didn't have to go to Terry for the Android invasion because they weren't contractually obliged to offer him a story unless it was the Daleks, but they did go to him and say to him, can you give us another story, which isn't the Daleks, because they rated working with him.

626
00:50:21.179 --> 00:50:27.659
And so not just the critics, but his peers agreed that he was a tremendous writer.

627
00:50:27.780 --> 00:50:29.880
I think the evidence is there on screen.

628
00:50:30.480 --> 00:50:41.639
The reason that I think he doesn't get his due from a lot of people is that he's not the kind of brilliant writer that we have been led to believe doctor who deserves.

629
00:50:41.699 --> 00:50:43.739
So if you get someone like Robert Holmes.

630
00:50:43.860 --> 00:50:46.920
People point to Robert Holmes, kind of, you know, he was a jobbing writer.

631
00:50:46.980 --> 00:50:51.719
He just wrote efficient scripts to water, but they get their bouquets because what they're good at.

632
00:50:51.780 --> 00:50:57.360
So what homes have that kind of that world building and that richness of dialogue and the comedy double axe and all that kind of thing.

633
00:50:57.719 --> 00:51:14.880
Russell, with his kind of, his emotion and his big arcs and his audaciousness, because of what Terry did was just nuts and bolts storytelling, strong ideas, his willingness to go big, his focus on just moving the plot onwards, because they are his strengths.

634
00:51:14.880 --> 00:51:17.159
And they are the strengths of good Doctor Who.

635
00:51:17.219 --> 00:51:19.380
He never quite gets appreciated for them.

636
00:51:20.519 --> 00:51:24.119
Can I just say that that was an absolutely brilliant summary.

637
00:51:24.360 --> 00:51:45.300
And if there's one thing that I've gotten out of starting this journey in the 1st 2 episodes, and then obviously listening to what's happened and where we are now, is that I have a new appreciation for termination, from what you've said in particular, Peter and Nathan, and everyone else, because I used to just lumping in with, oh, it's a terry nation hack.

638
00:51:45.360 --> 00:51:46.679
You know, it's just Terry Nation.

639
00:51:46.980 --> 00:51:53.280
I have a new appreciation for what he actually gave to the show and his skill at what he delivered.

640
00:51:53.340 --> 00:51:58.739
So thank you, Peter, and thanks Simon and Nathan, because that's who I worked with on this one.

641
00:51:59.280 --> 00:52:04.079
I think one of the things that he gets dragged for is having a box of tricks.

642
00:52:05.099 --> 00:52:05.820
A formula.

643
00:52:05.940 --> 00:52:06.960
Yeah, a formula.

644
00:52:07.139 --> 00:52:10.679
But, I mean, that's one of the things that we drag Stephen Moffat for.

645
00:52:10.800 --> 00:52:20.579
And I think Stephen Moffat is one of the most accomplished writers that the program's ever had, but he goes back and has things that he does all the time as well.

646
00:52:21.059 --> 00:52:22.619
And they're very different writers.

647
00:52:22.679 --> 00:52:25.980
You know, Terry is much more straightforward, Moffatt's much more knowing.

648
00:52:26.219 --> 00:52:31.440
They're writing in different eras, so different things are expected of them and demanded of them.

649
00:52:31.500 --> 00:52:48.059
So they're not particularly similar, but I don't think that, you know, the fact that he writes about particular things that he's interested in, things like, for instance, the collapse of a civilisation or war or, you know, that sort of staff.

650
00:52:48.360 --> 00:52:49.199
Great moral oppositions.

651
00:52:49.500 --> 00:52:50.519
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

652
00:52:50.579 --> 00:53:04.440
Things like courage, things like self-sacrifice, like all of those things, cynicism, the way that people become hardbitten and cynical, the way that people have to make just kind of difficult moral choices.

653
00:53:05.099 --> 00:53:14.820
Like all of that stuff is what drama is about and also what melodrama is about, what action shows are about, what shows like Doctor Who are about.

654
00:53:15.000 --> 00:53:27.000
And so they're less sexy than the sort of things that Morford does with his time, travel, and his narrative tricks and stuff like that, but they are very central to what makes a show like Doctor Who work.

655
00:53:27.360 --> 00:53:31.739
And I think that he reliably keeps things moving.

656
00:53:31.860 --> 00:53:34.739
I don't think he writes a boring story.

657
00:53:35.280 --> 00:53:37.079
You know, I don't think any of them are boring.

658
00:53:37.860 --> 00:53:46.860
No, and I'll even say point of the Daleks isn't because there's always something new happening in every episode of that, which is probably one of my least favourite of his.

659
00:53:47.039 --> 00:53:50.159
But what you were saying there, Nathan, about the box of tricks.

660
00:53:50.219 --> 00:53:55.860
Like, you know, sometimes because he's not flashbang like Stephen with words or Bob Holmes with characters.

661
00:53:55.980 --> 00:53:58.260
You don't necessarily see their tropes, right?

662
00:53:58.860 --> 00:54:16.920
Until later on when they start to write towards the end of their time, then you suddenly pick it up because you've seen it so many times. you pick it up a lot earlier with Terry because it doesn't have all those whistles and that, but that doesn't mean to say that he is not an expert and not creative and not investigating things that are interesting to him and moving Doctor Who forward.

663
00:54:17.159 --> 00:54:19.920
And also, I think mediocre reviewers.

664
00:54:20.039 --> 00:54:21.000
Lazy critics.

665
00:54:21.239 --> 00:54:24.420
There's been a lot of that over the years, hasn't there?

666
00:54:24.719 --> 00:54:25.920
A lot of the out of fines.

667
00:54:26.219 --> 00:54:27.719
Not more so when it comes to Terry.

668
00:54:28.019 --> 00:54:28.679
Yeah, exactly.

669
00:54:29.460 --> 00:54:33.960
I think they harp on the fact that his formula, so to speak, is a bad thing.

670
00:54:34.019 --> 00:54:36.059
No, this is the formula for good Doctor Who.

671
00:54:36.360 --> 00:54:38.699
It's a formula for a base Doctor Who story.

672
00:54:39.179 --> 00:54:43.320
Terry himself described himself as having the lucky thing of a common touch.

673
00:54:43.679 --> 00:54:45.539
And I think that is absolutely right.

674
00:54:45.840 --> 00:54:47.940
He knows what sells stories.

675
00:54:48.000 --> 00:54:50.639
He knows what hooks will get an audience.

676
00:54:50.940 --> 00:54:53.099
Every good comic writer knows this.

677
00:54:53.579 --> 00:54:54.000
Yes.

678
00:54:54.000 --> 00:54:55.860
You must have structure.

679
00:54:55.920 --> 00:54:57.300
You must have expectation.

680
00:54:57.360 --> 00:54:58.320
Hitchcock said it.

681
00:54:58.380 --> 00:55:01.920
That's all suspense is you must build up to the punchline.

682
00:55:02.159 --> 00:55:06.840
And it's only a brilliant comic writer who really understands the structure of drama.

683
00:55:07.380 --> 00:55:09.179
Well, better than most, I would say.

684
00:55:09.539 --> 00:55:10.199
That's right.

685
00:55:10.260 --> 00:55:13.559
And of course, we know from Terry's background that he was a comedy writer.

686
00:55:13.619 --> 00:55:15.599
He did a lot of comedy and he himself...

687
00:55:15.599 --> 00:55:16.679
It's the hardest to write, yeah.

688
00:55:16.860 --> 00:55:17.460
Absolutely.

689
00:55:17.519 --> 00:55:19.619
He himself didn't rate that highly.

690
00:55:19.679 --> 00:55:31.079
He doesn't think he was a good writer, but that goes, I think, to the heart of why he was such an interesting person and why he never quite gets the incredible praise that he deserves.

691
00:55:32.159 --> 00:55:55.019
I got my hands on a copy of the Doctor Who magazine, Legends, um, entry, which the 1st one is about Terry Nation, and it's really fascinating for the insights into him as a man, really, because in the editorial, Marcus says that one of the reasons that Terry was never served very well is he was a very self-effacing man, like he never capitalised on the brilliance of what he did.

692
00:55:55.079 --> 00:55:57.719
He never he never proclaimed his own genius.

693
00:55:57.780 --> 00:56:15.420
He just described himself as a jobbing writer, and he kind of deflected praise onto people like Barry Letts, or Verity Lambert, or David Maloney, and he always, in every interview, mentioned Raymond Cusick, and said, a lot of the impact of garlics is down to a brilliant BBC designer called Raymond Cusick.

694
00:56:15.480 --> 00:56:17.820
And so he was not grand about his gifts.

695
00:56:17.940 --> 00:56:19.559
And we see that in his writings.

696
00:56:19.619 --> 00:56:21.179
He's not a pretentious writer.

697
00:56:21.300 --> 00:56:25.380
He's a mainstream populist and popular writer.

698
00:56:26.400 --> 00:56:36.000
I think that really says something about his character that he mentions Raymond Cusack because he could have easily just not done that and taken all the glory for himself, so to speak.

699
00:56:36.840 --> 00:56:38.460
In terms of his Doctor Who journey.

700
00:56:38.519 --> 00:56:41.159
I think it's really great that we have a script really early on.

701
00:56:41.219 --> 00:56:48.780
His 2nd script keeps of Marinus, which is not a Dalek story, so you can actually see his world building and how he goes about things.

702
00:56:48.840 --> 00:56:58.260
And then his 2nd last script is the Android Invasion, which again shows you after so many Dalek scripts that he can build a different world with stories that are interesting outside of that.

703
00:56:58.380 --> 00:57:00.000
Interesting that it is Androids.

704
00:57:00.780 --> 00:57:01.619
Yes, like this.

705
00:57:01.679 --> 00:57:02.280
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

706
00:57:02.340 --> 00:57:03.659
He's working towards this.

707
00:57:03.719 --> 00:57:06.300
But it's great that we have those 2 that are not dalek swips.

708
00:57:06.659 --> 00:57:20.699
I've said before, I'm not on the Android invasion entry for this season of 500-year diary, but if I had been, I would have said, it's a great pity that we never got a raft of terry nation unit stories, because I suspect they would have been very good.

709
00:57:22.139 --> 00:57:28.380
From this season and from our Terence Dick's season.

710
00:57:28.440 --> 00:57:55.920
I think we have a few good reasons to try and reclaim the word hack because the idea that people writing to order or people writing for commercial purposes, people doing it as a job means that there's less art or artifice or skill or craft involved is absolute nonsense and that there is a real proper skill in producing drama to order because it needs to be made.

711
00:57:56.639 --> 00:58:07.980
And so sitting alone in a garret with your typewriter, letting all of your creative juices run free and untrammelled with no particular demands on your time or deadlines or anything.

712
00:58:08.039 --> 00:58:15.659
That's one thing, but that's not better or more artistic than what these writers are doing.

713
00:58:16.079 --> 00:58:23.940
They're creating something to order and maybe their hacks, like whatever, but that doesn't seem to me to be a shameful thing to be.

714
00:58:24.659 --> 00:58:45.420
You know, when you say that, I reflect on a lot of things that I've said on various podcasts, and you know, there's another 2 writers that I could throw in there, Pip and Jane Baker, who I may have slandered, produced, but they had to do things to order, and there's talent to do that.

715
00:58:46.139 --> 00:58:55.440
You look at any of the great sort of, you know, writers who contributed 3 or 4 stories over the years, thinking of someone like David Fisher or Malcolm Hulk.

716
00:58:55.500 --> 00:58:57.719
They were hacks, if you want to use that word.

717
00:58:57.840 --> 00:58:59.159
They delivered to order.

718
00:58:59.340 --> 00:59:01.260
They had a bit of a formula going on.

719
00:59:01.380 --> 00:59:05.519
They were able to sit down and say, what do you need this week because Doctor Who was weekly drama?

720
00:59:06.480 --> 00:59:08.219
Bob Baker and Dave Martin.

721
00:59:08.280 --> 00:59:08.579
Yeah.

722
00:59:08.639 --> 00:59:09.300
That's right.

723
00:59:09.360 --> 00:59:10.739
Some people do it better than others.

724
00:59:12.480 --> 00:59:13.679
The approach is the same.

725
00:59:44.280 --> 00:59:47.519
Well, that's all the time we have for this week and for this season.

726
00:59:48.420 --> 00:59:58.260
We'll be back, early next year, to watch the doctor get the politics wrong, in season 6 of 500 year diary, bad revolutions.

727
00:59:59.219 --> 01:00:17.639
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts and you can keep up with us on our website, 500yearDiary.com, where you'll find our social media links as well as links to all of our other podcasts, including the entirety of flights or entirety, which comprises every episode of our 4 Doctor Who podcasts.

728
01:00:19.260 --> 01:00:27.599
Until next time, if you see Maga, can you tell her that Commander Cheryl has absolutely no intention of giving her any of her lipsticks back?

729
01:00:28.079 --> 01:00:30.000
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

730
01:00:30.599 --> 01:00:31.139
Good night.

731
01:00:31.440 --> 01:00:32.219
See you soon.

732
01:00:32.579 --> 01:00:33.119
Good then.

733
01:00:44.880 --> 01:00:50.460
That was 500 Year Diary, starring Todd Bealby, Nathan Bottomley, Peter Griffiths, and Richard Stone.

734
01:00:50.639 --> 01:00:52.980
The theme was composed by Cameron Lamb.

735
01:00:53.340 --> 01:01:01.500
This episode, Suzanne Danielle, and her career objective was recorded on the 9th of August, 2026, and released on the 25th of October.

736
01:01:03.239 --> 01:01:13.800
A special shout out this week to Jonathan Jack Kerr, who created a brilliantly funny music video for Peter and Simon's We Love Terry Nation song from way back in episode four.

737
01:01:15.000 --> 01:01:19.260
Follow the link in the show notes and stay tuned to the end of this episode for more.

738
01:01:30.480 --> 01:01:34.380
And like so many other things, don't we miss him in the 1980s?

739
01:01:35.280 --> 01:01:36.599
All right, I think that's us.

740
01:01:36.659 --> 01:01:38.219
I think that's us out. perfect.

741
01:01:38.400 --> 01:01:39.059
Brilliant.

742
01:01:39.119 --> 01:01:39.780
Thank you.

743
01:01:39.840 --> 01:01:41.880
Let's kick the 1980s on the way out the door.

744
01:01:45.000 --> 01:01:46.139
Interesting when you get to that.

745
01:01:47.820 --> 01:01:51.599
Well, the next Dalek story is the one that I refer to as the worst story today.

746
01:01:51.900 --> 01:01:53.639
When are you doing the same?

747
01:01:54.420 --> 01:01:56.099
Should we do a Bob Baker and Dave Martin?

748
01:01:56.159 --> 01:01:57.480
Oh, yeah, it's called a Briscoe.

749
01:01:57.900 --> 01:02:00.360
Shipshape and Bristol fashion is what it's going to be called.

750
01:02:00.420 --> 01:02:01.380
We've already got a title.

751
01:02:02.280 --> 01:02:06.539
We will do Bob Baker and Dave Martin, which means we will do this on Taran experiment again.

752
01:02:09.539 --> 01:02:11.039
And what's the other one?

753
01:02:11.099 --> 01:02:13.980
I'll charge Bidmead appointment, obviously, is coming up at some point.

754
01:02:14.219 --> 01:02:15.480
Oh, forbid meat.

755
01:02:15.539 --> 01:02:17.099
I want to shame he's not here around anymore.

756
01:02:17.579 --> 01:02:21.119
I should have mentioned Bidmead because Bidmead, you know, wrote to order.

757
01:02:21.179 --> 01:02:22.139
It's like, what do you need?

758
01:02:22.199 --> 01:02:27.059
You need a story to wrap up the area, you need a generation story. needs something that thematically wraps up the season.

759
01:02:27.119 --> 01:02:28.199
I'll just jump and do it.

760
01:02:28.500 --> 01:02:29.579
And that was incredible.

761
01:02:29.639 --> 01:02:35.099
Like, I did that with Luke Sims Jenkins, because, you know, he's got the...

762
01:02:35.099 --> 01:02:36.119
We're talking about Lagopolis.

763
01:02:36.179 --> 01:02:39.840
Yeah, he's got the Maran Chess Club podcast, which does the 5th doctor stuff.

764
01:02:40.500 --> 01:02:43.980
And because Pete's in it for like 10 seconds at the end.

765
01:02:44.219 --> 01:02:50.039
He decided it was a Pete story and we would do it. it just struck me how incredibly good it is.

766
01:02:50.099 --> 01:02:55.380
Like I bragged on it and I made fun of it on FTE and I think unfairly because it's really properly good.

767
01:02:55.739 --> 01:02:56.159
What?

768
01:02:56.159 --> 01:02:57.840
Do you know, when I was 16 years old.

769
01:02:57.840 --> 01:03:12.599
When I was 16 years old at a Doctor Who day, I, um, I got one over on Tony Cook, who used to do the Doctor Who trivia and he sort of, he had all of these questions and he used to try and trick me into getting something wrong and I never would.

770
01:03:12.960 --> 01:03:23.579
And one of them was one of his questions was how many times, how many how many doctors at that stage had been credited as Doctor Who.

771
01:03:24.119 --> 01:03:26.940
And I said five, up to Peter Davidson.

772
01:03:27.000 --> 01:03:28.380
He said, I've got you wrong.

773
01:03:28.440 --> 01:03:30.360
It was only 4 up to Tom Baker.

774
01:03:30.480 --> 01:03:31.860
And I said, and the audience groaned.

775
01:03:31.920 --> 01:03:32.940
He's finally caught him out.

776
01:03:33.059 --> 01:03:34.860
I said, sorry, Tony, you're wrong.

777
01:03:34.980 --> 01:03:38.099
Peter Davison is credited as Doctor Who on Lucopolis, part four.

778
01:03:39.179 --> 01:03:39.719
Of course.

779
01:03:56.519 --> 01:04:02.460
In my imagination, I see tearing nation, right in the same script each time.

780
01:04:03.300 --> 01:04:07.320
In his mind, a delegation will try to insulation.

781
01:04:07.500 --> 01:04:12.659
As slaves are made to mine, with no imagination.

782
01:04:12.900 --> 01:04:14.579
Here comes Terrenation.

783
01:04:14.699 --> 01:04:19.380
Just radiation everywhere and space play.

784
01:04:21.659 --> 01:04:27.239
By halfway through part four. cutting through the door There's so much you can do.

785
01:04:27.840 --> 01:04:31.079
With bombs and doctors.

786
01:04:32.219 --> 01:04:33.900
We love Terry Nation.

787
01:04:35.760 --> 01:05:11.159
Mass extermination We love Terri Nation yeah We loved every nation incubation We love It's a crazy situation to think of terry nation adding space to everything.

788
01:05:12.300 --> 01:05:19.440
There'll be Daleks, every story, tearing in my corey and slither slithering.

789
01:05:19.619 --> 01:05:27.840
There's no imagination, little complication To my obese, my rap and magic chin.

790
01:05:30.480 --> 01:05:33.239
The cause I'm desperate, we're bored.

791
01:05:33.300 --> 01:05:40.079
I'm like enough But you can name the fouls Which is to syllabize.

792
01:05:40.739 --> 01:06:00.360
We love every nation Old space communication We love Terry Nation. yeah We love every nation Sent in vegetation.

793
01:06:02.519 --> 01:06:07.739
We love Terry Nation, yeah.

794
01:06:14.820 --> 01:06:33.719
With no imagination Here comes tearing nation And now we realise that all His cliche Is our present in each script, which is mostly ripped off.

795
01:06:33.840 --> 01:06:36.599
He's Terry, so he can.

796
01:06:38.219 --> 01:07:32.460
We love every nation, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh We love our nation on rotation We love terry nation, yeah We love every nation Robert Holmes frustration We love, termination, We love, termination We love, terriation. yeah