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This transcript was created on 2026-08-16 at 20:51:04

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to 500 Year Diary.

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The only Doctor Who podcast that likes to call this one, The Ordeal.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Peter.

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I'm Simon and I'm Todd.

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It's the 21st of December, 1963.

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Just 7 days ago, the doctor, his granddaughter, and 2 of her teachers made a hurried escape from the tribe of gum, and tonight, much to their surprise, about 6900000 people will tune in for an encounter with the most important sink plunger in the history of television.

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And over the next few weeks, those numbers will reach as high as 10.4 million.

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Something big is coming, and we're here to talk about one of the people responsible, one of Doctor Who's most important creative figures, Terry Nation.

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Let's see how he acquits himself in his 1st run of Doctor Who scripts, the story that nowadays we like to call the Daleks.

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I mean, we're basically here to talk about Terry Nation, but I do think that we should take the opportunity to talk about the production, given that, I mean, this is terribly early.

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And it is kind of very odd.

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I mean, I think Richard Martin, and we didn't talk about this when we did Dalek Invasion of Earth way back in our own series two, but he obviously directs the big climactic battle at the end.

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Yes.

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And it's terrible again.

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The weakest part of the story, unfortunately for me.

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Yeah, the battle in the in the Dalek city.

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Not the running through the corridors part is fine.

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It's just that last sequence in the in the control room, which I think is a bit unfortunate.

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And I think it's useful to compare that sequence to the sequence in episode 4 where the Daleks ambush the thals.

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Because, yes, that's a slower sequence.

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There's not quite as much action happening in it, but there is still a lot of stuff going on.

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What Christopher Barry does is he plants his cameras in interesting places so that you've got pieces of the set in the foreground and you're shooting around corners.

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So you get an idea of where Irvine is in this space and what's happening.

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Watch Richard Martin tends to do, is try to cut things too quickly to make it fast paced.

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And so therefore, in that environment.

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He keeps missing the shots.

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Yeah, it's that thing where in his mind's eye, he's got a filmic outcome and it's very difficult to do that in multicamera.

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Certainly then without doing lots of takes, which of course they couldn't do.

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I think we're quite lucky that Doctor Who is sort of on the cusp of, like when it's made of technology improving, right?

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If this hadn't been done 2 years early.

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They just wouldn't have been able to do what they're doing here.

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And I'm not to say that everything here succeeds, but they're pushing what they can do, and it's enough that you believe it.

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You know what I mean?

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I think we're very lucky in this room, in that we're children of the late 70s and 80s.

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So we got to see in movies in particular, a lot of technical advancements with cinema, right?

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And we went through that and saw all that progress, and all the science fiction and all the tropes that you kind of see coming out of books are in like 70s and 80s stuff, and then we're of an age when television, like, you know, with Star Trek and all the fantasy stuff like Buffy's and that of the 90s, we're old enough to see all of that, those rewards getting reaped then.

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So we then take that and we can look back at what was happening here in 1963.

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And we've got that sort of knowledge and we've lived through that, like that perspective, and I kind of think that Doctor Who, and with Terry in particular, is, has there been much television before that's done what he's doing?

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Like there might have been a bit of cinema, there might have been stuff in the states, but a lot of it's books and that sort of thing.

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And I kind of think this is the 1st time we're seeing a lot of this.

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I mean, we talk about cherry tropes and that.

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But that's just how I feel about this.

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So I find it fascinating to watch, to see that marriage of what is science fiction and science fantasy.

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Like we've got enough science fact in here that it's not, again, if it was 2 or 3 years earlier.

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We probably end up with Venus and you could breathe on Venus, which are things that I hate, right?

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Whereas here it's like you've got radiation and he's pulling in stuff that's believable enough.

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And so I appreciate it from that aspect and just seeing, oh, we're going to talk about it in this series and you'll see production evolved.

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But I think there's enough in this that, yeah, some of it's ropey, but there's enough that I believe it and I can take my experiences from the 80s and 90s and play it back and see where they're coming from and I find it fascinating.

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Well, you're saying there, Doctor Who has our own analogue as well, because every 3 or 4 years, Doctor Who's production moves on.

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And so you compare something like the Arcan space to the monster of Paladon.

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It's like there's a light year between their production.

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You compare something like the Dalek's master plan to the Daleks and the Daleks is exceptionally good for what it's attempting to do.

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But you can just see that television and production has changed and moved on.

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I mean, I even think Dalek Invasion of Earth next year.

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Like, I do think that it is significantly better than this in all sorts of ways.

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We were quite critical of it, I think.

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We're critical of certain aspects.

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Basically, and that aspect, particularly was Richard Martin not being able to cover things. fact that it should have been far superior to what it was.

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It could have been, especially compared to other stories around it.

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But I mean, the sophistication of the storytelling and things, even though it is very linear, there's a sort of quest narrative.

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It's just over the last week or so, you know, watching Terry Nation Doctor Who in preparation for this, he is just a past master at getting them to split up for no reason.

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Like, it just happens all the time.

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There's always a miss.

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That's true because if you watch, obviously, the next story, he does the keys of Mariners.

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Mariners, they spit up all the time.

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There's something about him is that his logic within an episode, I feel kind of generally does make sense.

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But then when you take the episodes and put them all together, then there's inconsistencies and that sort of thing.

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But I think within an episode, generally he's getting from one part to the end, like, I mean, later on in this episode, they find that piece of art that just sitting up the top of the building so they can push it down, you know, the lift, just stop the Daleks.

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Like it makes sense, but then you think about, well, why is that piece of art there for God's?

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The garlics do in their spare time.

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You know where I'm coming from?

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Yeah, on that thing of the history of television aspect of it. what you're saying about when it starts, it does start at a cusp in television technology.

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And at university, in one of my subjects, I think we saw an episode of homicide, the Australian, very, very popular, long-running police drama that was in black and white and you ended up in colour, I seem to recall.

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And I think the episode we saw was around the time of this, it was like 63 or maybe even been 62.

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They could not do sync sound on location.

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And I think I mentioned this in the Dark Invasion of Earth episode in that you'd have, like, you know, the cop showed, like the car arriving at the police station and they'd walk up the steps. there'd be no dialogue.

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They could, Foley, some footsteps and stuff and there'd be music.

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And remember, the 1st location filming we get, Israel of Terror, and that's just, I think it's not even hard.

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I think it's Edmond Warwick walking down a country lane. from the Keys of Mariners.

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Yes, indeed.

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I was going to good at that.

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And then in Dialect Image of Birth.

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A lot of the location work is just, you know, them running and pushing things through London.

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There's no dialogue involved.

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But the film that they use in this part of the series is, you know, the complex stuff at Ealing.

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So, and what I am surprised going back to that final fight sequence in the Dialect control room.

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I was surprised watching it.

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Like, this would have been a candidate for filming at Ealing or filming on the thing.

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But of course, that would have been difficult.

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Well, you can do sync sound in the context of a studio setting, but that would have been a better use of it than having what's his face fall from the rope and, you know, in your ordeal and some other bits of filming that they've done.

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Like they do at the end of unearthly child.

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The climax, the fight sequence, is all done on film.

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And that's a shame that they didn't do that.

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But yeah, the technology is moving at such a rate that even this is different to what you get a year later.

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So I think there are things about the production that are incredibly successful.

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Incredibly success.

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And they include the design.

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We'll talk a little bit about how much Terry Nation is actually responsible for the dialects, but the look of the dialects is incredible and they could so easily have been terrible and they're not.

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They're amazing.

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And it's the Daleks in their final form, the times that the show has departed from that look.

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It's always failed miserably.

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They're perfect.

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The corridors of the Dalek city are incredible, just stunningly good.

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The miniature.

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I know it's their sort of 2nd attempt at the miniature because they have to reshoot episode one.

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No, not for that.

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It's just the fact that the 1st model is rejected.

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That's right.

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And isn't that something?

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They reject it.

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Oh okay.

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It looks amazing and even the way that they have those characters standing in front of the cliff.

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Yeah, I think that looks really good.

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Yeah, you know, with the Matt shot and having all that there.

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Like, I would like to point out the scene in episode 4 where around the lift, which is just masterfully done, incorporating that inlay with the lift into the live action.

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Yes.

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Yeah.

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I mean, it like there are all sorts of things that are really successful for everything, however, that's really successful.

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There's sort of things that are a bit pants.

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I mean, I'm going to disagree.

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Yeah, there's not very much that's pants, really.

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Because there's 2 things really to follow up on there.

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The 1st thing is that terrenation always goes big.

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One of the things he does with the show is pushed the limits.

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Yes.

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And if you go direct to like Richard Martin, who can't quite pull it off.

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It means that it can go a bit wrong.

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If you get someone like Chris Barry, who's willing to rise to that challenge and try and make it work, greatness ensues.

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The thing about the production is that they have to concentrate on the things that they can make work and the garlics is an exemplary illustration of that.

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So, no, they can't go out on filming.

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They have to do a jungle in the corner of the studio.

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They have to do some city corridors.

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So what they do is they make the design of the city corridors amazing and distinctive.

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They give the scenes an incredible soundscape.

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Oh, yes.

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Unbelievably.

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So much to the finished products.

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And I'm not just talking about the boom boom of the dalek control genius, though, that is.

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I'm talking about that weird whistling. like whistling wind sound.

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Yeah, which they should make it again, because Jeff Mills continues on series.

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By the time you come to destiny of the Daleks, it's there.

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It's there on the surface of sky.

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Exactly.

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There's no jungle But incredibly, the sound in those subterranean corridors in the Dalek city, that incredible clanking and whirring kind of distant sound of machinery absolutely builds the picture that you want.

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The lighting is incredible.

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And sometimes for no particular reason.

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That scene in episode 2 where the Dr. Ian and Susan enter the room with the Geiger counter.

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It's all lit from underneath.

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And it looks incredibly dramatic.

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There was no particular reason to do that, but it makes that scene look really special.

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So Christopher Barry. is there going, what can I do to really sell this?

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And everything works together.

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And to go back to what you were saying, Simon.

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Richard Martin does do a reasonable job of episode three, not so much on 6 and 7, but that's because all of the big creative decisions have been well made by Christopher Barry.

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Yes, but the name, of course, is Raymond Cusick. who created the Daleks, really, is it Terry Nation?

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is it Raymond Cusick?

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And as you were suggesting before, the design is perfect.

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Unlike the cybermen that go through many different iterations and essentially redesigned after their fairest appearance, the Daleks are correct from day one.

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But thought has been given.

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The fact that the doorways, they only need to be large enough to feed the daleks through them.

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Someone, you know, that implies that, you know, Ray Coustic has sat down and probably with Christopher Barry as well, has sat down and thought about what would the interior of the city be like?

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And I think it goes to a lot of care and thought that has gone into this, which I'm afraid to say starts to dissipate as the series presses.

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And I want to talk a lot more about that show, because there's a lot of the history of the genesis of the show, which is, you know, I mean, obviously the genesis of the show and the creation of this story are intertwined because this story is the show, becomes the show.

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But also there are some drunken camera angles in the sequence where Barbara's running through the city towards the climax of episode one.

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I saw a handheld in there as well.

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Yeah, a handheld.

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She puts the way she puts her hand on the camera lens at one point.

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That's kind of thing that even I don't even know.

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How much would that have been done?

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That's effectively breaking the 4th wall.

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How much?

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It's very modern visual storytelling there.

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It's extraordinary.

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And but the sound, the doors make.

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Those semi-transparent doors, semi-transparent doors.

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And then the the terror in her breath as, you know, 1st the translucent one comes down and then the solid one comes down and from the other side.

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I mean that is doing a great deal with not very much.

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And I think that's what the series and Terry forgets pretty quickly almost immediately from the next Terrenation story.

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It's funny that that design, that iconic design of what the dalek city looks like and what the corridors look like, doesn't really come back until series 9 until magicians apprentice.

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And you're basically they're doing, not a pastiche, but a homage, thinking to it.

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I would say the power of the Daleks.

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The Dalek vessel and that.

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Yes, and that's Chris. that's true.

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And so it makes it look darlicky.

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But I would also like to pick up on what Simon said there about Terry Nation.

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Basically, Reikusik gets all of the glory in modern day criticism for the Daleks and people tend to want to take it away from terrination.

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So I want to go back to what he actually said in the script.

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Everyone knows the bit about 4 hideous machine creatures, their legless moving on around base.

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They have no human features.

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And people tend to leave it there and say, look, look how little effort he put into describing what was masterpiece of design.

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However, he then went on to say this, the creatures hold strange weapons in their hands.

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One of them glides forward.

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It speaks with an echoing mechanical voice, they make a hissing noise as they fire, the picture goes negative.

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So he's not responsible just for the idea of the Daleks.

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He's responsible for that entire kind of design and atmospheric universe that surrounds the Daleks.

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That's him.

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Oh, yes.

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But in another early version of the script, they're described as froglike creatures on a base.

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And I do recall that in one of the discussions, they were talking about having a cloth kind of cursing around the base, like it would have been...

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Yeah, it would have just been nothing, nothing like it.

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Don't talk about frog-like people on a base.

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You'll give the trout and era ideas.

204
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Back to what you just said.

205
00:15:54.600 --> 00:16:01.259
Like, you mean, that really highlights Raymond and the production team, their inspiration is drawn from what Terry said.

206
00:16:01.320 --> 00:16:10.679
So, yes, we were all saying Raymond, Raymond Raymond, but, you know, Terry had to write this and write the Daleks the way they're written as well. you know, and they're all in, they're quite individual.

207
00:16:11.159 --> 00:16:20.879
They've got a kind of a leader in that control room, but they talk about things, you know, section, whatever it was, was it, section 3 or, section 3 or died, but section 2 are recovering.

208
00:16:21.659 --> 00:16:24.480
But little things like that that are just more human.

209
00:16:24.480 --> 00:16:31.259
Saying that the files are disgustingly mutated seems like a very undalek sort of thing.

210
00:16:31.320 --> 00:16:35.820
And the most undalek line that I came up with, it was a few questions will reduce the mystery.

211
00:16:37.440 --> 00:16:53.879
You don't get you don't get that kind of because the problem is, as soon as they are realised, then the way he writes for them in the way a lot of other people write for them changes and diminishes them to basically being robots going around as opposed to individual sentient things.

212
00:16:53.940 --> 00:16:55.799
But the voice actors are in on it as well.

213
00:16:55.860 --> 00:16:59.220
The voice actors know that these are not just monotone beings.

214
00:16:59.279 --> 00:17:06.359
So that line where they're explaining the history of Skaro to the doctor and whoever's voicing that dalek says there are 2 races.

215
00:17:06.420 --> 00:17:09.240
The Daleks pause at the thal.

216
00:17:09.480 --> 00:17:09.660
Yes.

217
00:17:09.720 --> 00:17:11.880
And yes, just say, okay, they're doing something with this.

218
00:17:12.000 --> 00:17:14.099
They know that there's a libling.

219
00:17:14.160 --> 00:17:14.940
There's an act in there.

220
00:17:15.000 --> 00:17:16.500
There's an actor there interpreting the lines.

221
00:17:16.680 --> 00:17:42.480
Absolutely And I think that that's, you know, one of the things that when the, when the Daleks come back in 2005, not only do we retain that look unchanged, beefed up with a little bit more detail for kind of, you know, a better TV picture, but we also retain the, um, Peter Hawkins, David Graham voices that that's exactly what, what Nick Briggs is imitating.

222
00:17:43.079 --> 00:17:44.759
And the Michael Wisher version.

223
00:17:44.759 --> 00:17:47.160
Yes. in Genesis and so on.

224
00:17:47.279 --> 00:17:53.339
But don't forget, the Daleks also, like say, cannot control help me and go, ah, ah.

225
00:17:53.400 --> 00:17:58.740
Like, I mean, we laugh about all that later on in Doctor Who, but it is here right from the beginning.

226
00:17:59.279 --> 00:18:04.440
And the 1st sterior is when they're trying to escape the cell and it's like, keep away from me, keep away from me.

227
00:18:04.500 --> 00:18:07.380
That's the 1st example of that kind of...

228
00:18:07.380 --> 00:18:13.140
That's because they know if you if you gently push one into a console, then the whole story will be over.

229
00:18:15.420 --> 00:18:20.220
I think the fact that they're not bug eyed monsters is a real achievement.

230
00:18:21.000 --> 00:18:26.039
Because obviously what Sidney Newman didn't want was Monster of the Week turning up and that's what we start to get.

231
00:18:26.099 --> 00:18:29.099
And Terry himself can be an advocate of that.

232
00:18:29.160 --> 00:18:32.099
So the sliver, for instance.

233
00:18:39.480 --> 00:18:42.720
No, just the slither, but, you know, the Maya beasts and the virus.

234
00:18:42.720 --> 00:18:43.740
Yes, it starts appearing everywhere.

235
00:18:43.740 --> 00:18:46.500
And the mutation in the swamp.

236
00:18:46.980 --> 00:18:49.980
And one way to even say the magneton from episode one.

237
00:18:50.220 --> 00:18:54.180
But, yeah, he loves a weird and way out creature, but the Daleks are not that.

238
00:18:54.539 --> 00:18:56.759
No, they're people are guide monsters in any way.

239
00:18:57.420 --> 00:19:01.920
They resist being bug eyed monsters and that's why they're successful because there's an intelligence behind their career.

240
00:19:01.980 --> 00:19:02.519
They're not evil.

241
00:19:02.819 --> 00:19:03.480
In their story.

242
00:19:03.539 --> 00:19:05.279
No, you're right. not necessarily evil.

243
00:19:05.519 --> 00:19:07.019
I think they are not going to kill it.

244
00:19:07.079 --> 00:19:09.359
I think they are even when they decide they're going to release all the radiation.

245
00:19:09.779 --> 00:19:14.460
They're entirely self-interested and they are amoral and immoral as well.

246
00:19:14.519 --> 00:19:15.960
But I don't think they're evil.

247
00:19:16.019 --> 00:19:16.799
They're trying to survive.

248
00:19:16.859 --> 00:19:17.640
That's their thrust.

249
00:19:18.000 --> 00:19:21.839
Well, Doctor Who hasn't settled on monsters yet, and it takes a while to do that.

250
00:19:22.140 --> 00:19:35.759
And so the Daleks aren't monsters in this story, but obviously part of the story of season 2 of 500-year diary was the discovery that the 2nd time a creature turned up, it would become a monster at that point.

251
00:19:35.819 --> 00:19:36.420
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

252
00:19:37.319 --> 00:19:49.920
But I do think, you know, it was the idea of not having any physical human characteristics, no limbs, none of that because that's what could have gone wrong.

253
00:19:49.980 --> 00:19:52.140
It could have looked like the servo robot.

254
00:19:52.319 --> 00:20:03.059
They could have looked like the Cyberman. you know, like the reason that the cybermen are not as interesting as the Daleks, I think, is partly how obviously they are men in suits, I think.

255
00:20:03.539 --> 00:20:08.160
Brilliance always requires an amalgamation of people and ideas.

256
00:20:08.220 --> 00:20:10.259
It requires everyone to bring their A game.

257
00:20:10.319 --> 00:20:11.640
And that's what the Daleks does.

258
00:20:11.880 --> 00:20:13.920
The dialects are written brilliantly.

259
00:20:13.980 --> 00:20:15.359
They're designed brilliantly.

260
00:20:15.599 --> 00:20:17.579
The sound design is biant.

261
00:20:17.759 --> 00:20:18.839
Everything works together.

262
00:20:19.200 --> 00:20:25.140
There is an alternate universe where you've replaced the Dalek voice with something like the morpho brains.

263
00:20:25.500 --> 00:20:27.000
And it's a plummy English actor.

264
00:20:27.299 --> 00:20:28.319
Dexter, yeah.

265
00:20:29.880 --> 00:20:30.720
Mobility.

266
00:20:32.099 --> 00:20:33.599
And it wouldn't have worked.

267
00:20:33.660 --> 00:20:34.680
It wouldn't have caught on.

268
00:20:34.740 --> 00:20:36.839
Everything has to work in concert with each other.

269
00:20:36.900 --> 00:20:44.400
And time has dulled us to the fact that the Daleks are one of the top 5 monster creations in all of film and television.

270
00:20:54.660 --> 00:21:18.900
The series, at this point, though, and I think this is one of the reasons why all of these things come together, is that there are a lot of very brilliant people working together in what is an incredibly chaotic early period for the series when basically various head honchos in different departments are desperately lobbying for the whole thing to be canned.

271
00:21:19.079 --> 00:21:19.440
Right?

272
00:21:19.740 --> 00:21:23.039
Donald Wilson is keeping a very close eye on it.

273
00:21:23.460 --> 00:21:28.440
Sidney Newman's keeping a, not as close, but he's obviously, it's his, it's his baby as well.

274
00:21:29.339 --> 00:21:31.079
So Terry Nation comes along.

275
00:21:31.740 --> 00:21:36.720
I mean, we know that Anthony Coban obviously wrote the 1st 4 episodes, he was also supposed to write the next six.

276
00:21:37.079 --> 00:21:38.400
He did write the next six.

277
00:21:38.400 --> 00:21:39.960
That's the masters of...

278
00:21:40.019 --> 00:21:41.819
And then I think that turns into the Masters of Luxor.

279
00:21:42.059 --> 00:21:49.799
Now, for whatever reason they're not happy with that. and Terry Nation script, The Mutants, is after Journey to Cafe, right?

280
00:21:50.279 --> 00:21:54.900
And it's pulled forward when they decide that the robots is not working.

281
00:21:55.500 --> 00:21:57.960
And he writes an episode a day over 7 days.

282
00:21:58.259 --> 00:22:00.059
No, no, no, no, no, no. plenty...

283
00:22:00.180 --> 00:22:01.799
Daleks is not written in a hurry.

284
00:22:02.039 --> 00:22:09.660
And in fact, the Daleks goes through an amazing number of redrafts, partly because everyone's not quite sure and is it a bug-eyed monster?

285
00:22:09.720 --> 00:22:11.339
We have to make sure it's not a bug-eyed monster.

286
00:22:11.400 --> 00:22:18.779
There's a lot of there's a lot of additional layers that are added into it to try and make sure it's doing what they want the series to do.

287
00:22:19.259 --> 00:22:28.740
Now, the Daleks, we'll talk a bit more about how the Daleks completely, well, not completely, somewhat diverts the direction of the show compared to that original briefing document.

288
00:22:28.920 --> 00:22:33.059
So Terry Nations had a falling out with Tony Hancock, who he was writing for.

289
00:22:33.119 --> 00:22:34.200
So he's looking for work.

290
00:22:34.259 --> 00:22:40.740
And somehow I think Whittaker had some previous encounter with Terry Nation and invites him.

291
00:22:40.740 --> 00:22:46.079
Because Whittaker is having an incredibly hard time getting scripts for serious SSSNs one.

292
00:22:46.140 --> 00:22:47.339
They are all just wrong.

293
00:22:47.400 --> 00:22:49.259
Like, it's just people just don't get it.

294
00:22:49.380 --> 00:22:54.119
The historicals that people are coming up with are just not interesting in a way.

295
00:22:54.599 --> 00:22:55.440
You could argue this.

296
00:22:55.500 --> 00:22:57.420
The thing that's turning up is the masters of Luxor.

297
00:22:57.480 --> 00:22:59.759
It's all this kind of ethereal space.

298
00:22:59.819 --> 00:23:10.740
Yes, but that's partly the briefing document because the briefings document is always about like the futuristic non-historical stories, slash non-historical stories. are always based around some concept, like Malcolm Hawkes, the hidden planet.

299
00:23:10.799 --> 00:23:14.400
Like, oh, you know, it's a mirror of earth on the other side of the sun and all that sort of stuff.

300
00:23:14.460 --> 00:23:16.680
They've been reduced to an inch high in Ian's laboratory.

301
00:23:16.859 --> 00:23:18.480
Exactly, all that kind of rubbish.

302
00:23:19.440 --> 00:23:21.180
It's all these fantasy tropes that I don't like.

303
00:23:21.660 --> 00:23:22.079
Exactly.

304
00:23:22.140 --> 00:23:23.460
I would not have liked that series.

305
00:23:24.240 --> 00:23:34.500
So Whittaker, when he gets the scene breakdown from Nation, for a 6 episode version of the Daleks, he tells his colleagues, it's the best scene breakdown.

306
00:23:34.559 --> 00:23:37.019
The 26-page scene breakdown., the best he's ever seen.

307
00:23:37.140 --> 00:23:42.480
And Whittick has been working on the Sunday night play, whatever it's called, in the years before this, another way.

308
00:23:42.539 --> 00:23:43.680
He's incredibly impressed.

309
00:23:43.740 --> 00:23:46.259
And so they expanded up to 7 episodes and bring it forward.

310
00:23:46.799 --> 00:23:50.519
Now, Nation stops being involved basically after the 2nd draft.

311
00:23:50.819 --> 00:23:57.000
A lot of the added layers, like the fluid links, the fluid link at 1st is going to be just a part that needs to be recharged.

312
00:23:57.240 --> 00:23:58.440
That's David Whittaker.

313
00:23:58.440 --> 00:23:59.400
Oh, okay.

314
00:23:59.400 --> 00:24:00.779
Adding the fluid link aspect.

315
00:24:00.779 --> 00:24:02.819
It's filled with mercury. of course it is.

316
00:24:02.880 --> 00:24:03.720
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

317
00:24:03.720 --> 00:24:08.700
No, but it's the thing. because I have to work out, you know, why they need to get back to the city to get some more episodes kind of thing.

318
00:24:08.759 --> 00:24:13.140
You know, but they have to work out what the conceit is there and it's never quite right.

319
00:24:13.319 --> 00:24:23.160
But Donald Wilson, he hated the scripts, all of, you know, in those early drafts, and he told Verity and David Whittaker about that, and they just said, look, we've got no choice.

320
00:24:23.220 --> 00:24:23.759
We have to go ahead.

321
00:24:23.819 --> 00:24:25.500
The robots is just not going to work.

322
00:24:25.559 --> 00:24:26.519
We've brought this forward.

323
00:24:26.579 --> 00:24:29.099
This is basically literally the only story we can do.

324
00:24:29.519 --> 00:24:30.660
I saw very, say that.

325
00:24:30.720 --> 00:24:32.339
She said, it's good stuff, Sydney.

326
00:24:32.400 --> 00:24:33.180
It's strong stuff.

327
00:24:33.779 --> 00:24:42.839
No, this is Donald Wilson, but apparently this really shook both David and Verity because they really trusted Donald Wilson and they were really worried.

328
00:24:42.900 --> 00:24:48.299
Oh my god, are we just getting this totally, totally wrong. distrust their instincts and their instincts were correct.

329
00:24:48.660 --> 00:24:49.079
Exactly.

330
00:24:49.200 --> 00:24:54.539
Chris Barry also has doubts about the logic of the plot and those things and the clarity of the exposition.

331
00:24:54.839 --> 00:24:58.799
These things are all fixed in the subsequent draft done by David Whittaker.

332
00:24:58.859 --> 00:25:01.559
In the same way that Robert Holmes, I think, tightens up some of Terry's stuff later.

333
00:25:01.680 --> 00:25:10.200
David Whittaker is definitely the person for the Daleks that is a huge contributor to why it is so polished and everything actually does.

334
00:25:10.259 --> 00:25:11.880
Despite there are a few bits and pieces here.

335
00:25:11.940 --> 00:25:18.839
Everything does make it in internal sense, which I'm afraid to say when people stop riding Terry Nation scripts quite so much.

336
00:25:19.319 --> 00:25:25.740
You start to see the, there's a certain 1st draftness, which I'll be commenting on in the Keys of Mariners.

337
00:25:25.799 --> 00:25:26.099
Right.

338
00:25:26.339 --> 00:25:34.380
I mean, I think I think the genius thing about the fluid link is that it's, and it's very clearly a Whittaker thing is that it's based on the doctor's character, isn't it?

339
00:25:34.440 --> 00:25:41.940
You know, that this, we've got to have reasons this early on in the show and we will see that next week when we do Keys of Mariners.

340
00:25:42.119 --> 00:25:46.019
How do we keep everyone from just getting into the Tardus and leaving?

341
00:25:46.859 --> 00:25:49.799
And that becomes a feature of these early stories, isn't it?

342
00:25:49.920 --> 00:25:50.640
Why is that?

343
00:25:50.700 --> 00:25:52.200
Because the doctor's not a hero at this point.

344
00:25:52.440 --> 00:25:53.579
We're not here to solve any problems.

345
00:25:53.640 --> 00:25:54.359
No, that's right.

346
00:25:54.599 --> 00:25:59.279
And so here the doctor, because he's a mischievous old man who gets them into scrapes.

347
00:25:59.400 --> 00:26:04.619
It's all based on his character, what he's like as a person and what his plot function is.

348
00:26:04.920 --> 00:26:05.819
I love those scenes.

349
00:26:05.880 --> 00:26:07.319
You're uninvited passengers.

350
00:26:07.380 --> 00:26:08.099
I shall do what I like.

351
00:26:08.819 --> 00:26:26.519
I think that's one of the big strengths of this story is seeing the interplay between the 4 regulars. and the friction between them and the chewing and the fro, like, and the discussions they have, and then seeing that develop throughout, when they are working together towards the end, as it all comes together.

352
00:26:26.579 --> 00:26:36.960
And I just love it, you know, even the discussions when they're all in that cell as to who's going to go and go back to the Tartars and that sort of thing with, you know, it should be the man and, you know, it's all about Ian, it's legs getting right.

353
00:26:37.019 --> 00:26:41.700
But in the end, those middle episodes where Susan actually has some gumption, right?

354
00:26:41.759 --> 00:26:43.619
I actually find really interesting now.

355
00:26:44.160 --> 00:26:59.700
Like, and it's all this stuff like fluid link, fluid and mercury and radiation metres, like things that are grounded in reality that we can connect with. going back to the TARDS to get the radiation gloves. is taking the educational remit of the show seriously.

356
00:27:00.119 --> 00:27:00.720
Oh, yeah.

357
00:27:00.720 --> 00:27:07.500
So we've got discussions for the kids on Mercury, on static electricity, on the effects of radiation.

358
00:27:07.680 --> 00:27:08.579
He's doing it properly.

359
00:27:08.640 --> 00:27:12.180
And of course, the effects of radiation, very much top of mind.

360
00:27:12.240 --> 00:27:14.819
I mean, we are living moments after the Cuban missile crisis.

361
00:27:14.940 --> 00:27:20.279
I think that there is an assumption that there will be a nuclear war at some point.

362
00:27:20.460 --> 00:27:21.900
That's what that's what the world was like.

363
00:27:22.500 --> 00:27:32.640
But Todd, also that scene in the room where they discover the Gaga counter and the doctor reveals that there's nothing wrong with the fluid link and he wants to get it off air to go back to the ship, right?

364
00:27:32.700 --> 00:27:34.079
You says you can stay here and look for Barbara.

365
00:27:34.140 --> 00:27:38.400
You can absolutely believe in the context of the show at this point that the doctor would just leave.

366
00:27:39.000 --> 00:27:39.779
Leave the planet.

367
00:27:40.619 --> 00:27:42.960
If Ian doesn't agree and just to abandon Barbara.

368
00:27:43.440 --> 00:27:48.539
I mean, earlier on, Barbara doesn't even want to be there. she just wants to go back to the ship and leave.

369
00:27:49.019 --> 00:27:52.619
She says, I make a very unwilling adventurer and, you know, that's Terry, isn't it?

370
00:27:52.680 --> 00:27:54.660
homing in on what's important adventure.

371
00:27:55.319 --> 00:27:55.799
Yes.

372
00:27:56.880 --> 00:28:02.400
And I mean, that's how this is structured and even how the episodes are named, isn't it?

373
00:28:02.460 --> 00:28:05.279
The ambush, the ordeal, the expedition.

374
00:28:05.339 --> 00:28:13.559
You know, that everything is named after some kind of adventure, you know, some kind of stage in the adventure.

375
00:28:13.619 --> 00:28:22.559
And so we aren't here really to do, for instance, the kind of discussion of morality or anything that we get at the beginning of, is it episode four?

376
00:28:23.099 --> 00:28:26.160
I think that discussion happens at the end of episode four, beginning of episode five.

377
00:28:26.579 --> 00:28:30.000
It's all about pacifism and all that sort of stuff, which is very 1960 stuff.

378
00:28:30.240 --> 00:28:30.599
Yeah.

379
00:28:30.599 --> 00:28:33.059
Which is, you know, totally relevant.

380
00:28:33.240 --> 00:28:34.200
It's all that.

381
00:28:34.680 --> 00:28:40.079
And, you know, the use of drugs, which obviously people are taking...

382
00:28:40.140 --> 00:28:40.799
I think you'll find.

383
00:28:42.779 --> 00:28:46.799
It's all that stuff that grounds it for me, as I was saying earlier.

384
00:28:46.859 --> 00:28:48.359
Like, it's not fantasy stuff.

385
00:28:48.420 --> 00:28:56.279
It's fact, and that friction between what is science fiction and what is real really helps this serial and the 4 main characters.

386
00:28:57.119 --> 00:29:02.579
The science fiction for me always works best and I think it works in Doctor Who.

387
00:29:02.640 --> 00:29:15.240
Like the Doctor Who stories always work best where they, whoever they are in each context, have really thought about it, have thought about how does this, would this, trying to place it in a realistic mindset.

388
00:29:15.359 --> 00:29:24.779
Obviously, it's ridiculous, but trying to within that framework, then having everything kind of have a logical and understandable and relatable aspect to it.

389
00:29:24.839 --> 00:29:42.119
And I think when the series fails at other times, it's because it chucks that out the window too much and it becomes silly, whereas somewhere like here, everyone, whether it's Raymond Kouzik, whether it's Terry Nation, whether it's David Whitaker, they're all thinking about, how could this actually work?

390
00:29:42.119 --> 00:29:44.039
And how would these people actually react?

391
00:29:44.160 --> 00:29:47.640
And why would the thials be persuaded to go down and help the doctor?

392
00:29:47.640 --> 00:29:48.720
And so on. you know what I mean?

393
00:29:48.779 --> 00:29:50.099
Like it's rather than just stuff happening.

394
00:29:50.579 --> 00:29:52.500
Harry Nation is a science fiction writer.

395
00:29:52.619 --> 00:29:53.819
People don't give him that credit.

396
00:29:53.880 --> 00:29:58.559
We know from his later work that he likes science fiction and he develops science fiction.

397
00:29:58.740 --> 00:30:01.859
But what he understands is that science fiction only gets you so far.

398
00:30:02.099 --> 00:30:16.380
In Doctor Who, it gets you, sorry, Simon, inside the spaceship, the censorites, whereas if you add adventure to that, you get the kind of storytelling that people who aren't science fiction fans will tune in and watch.

399
00:30:17.099 --> 00:30:25.440
For me, I think the weakest stuff is those conversations around pacifism and trying to persuade the files to help them.

400
00:30:25.680 --> 00:30:26.160
Why?

401
00:30:26.160 --> 00:30:32.039
I think the reason is that there doesn't seem to be any reason for the individual characters to take the position that they do.

402
00:30:33.539 --> 00:30:35.759
No, I mean the our regulars.

403
00:30:35.819 --> 00:30:48.420
So, for instance, it's Ian who doesn't want to be responsible for persuading the files to come and just help them get the fluid link and get killed in the process.

404
00:30:48.480 --> 00:30:52.200
He doesn't want to persuade them to kind of trick them to go.

405
00:30:52.319 --> 00:30:53.039
He doesn't want to trick them.

406
00:30:53.099 --> 00:30:54.900
Yeah, to go into the city to help them.

407
00:30:55.019 --> 00:31:04.019
Barbara doesn't care that much about that and neither does the doctor, but none of that seems to stem from anything about those 2 people and particularly Barbara.

408
00:31:04.079 --> 00:31:06.720
It seems like an odd position for Barbara to take.

409
00:31:07.680 --> 00:31:11.579
And so all of that stuff seems just not quite formed yet.

410
00:31:12.359 --> 00:31:32.400
You know, the reason the characters behave the way that they do, like why is Barbara now, all of a sudden, sort of, she's a reluctant adventurer, but by the later episodes, she's on this expedition, she's decided to go with Ian, and all of that stuff is very much centred on, Ian needs someone to talk to during those episodes.

411
00:31:32.460 --> 00:31:35.579
To some extent, yes, but I also...

412
00:31:35.640 --> 00:31:37.259
No, she's gunning for Ganitis, isn't she?

413
00:31:37.500 --> 00:31:47.220
No, but I think yes and no, because I think what you're missing there is what they're perhaps clumsily trying to demonstrate is the a slight evolution of her character.

414
00:31:47.279 --> 00:31:49.559
You know, she's just being to prehistoric Earth.

415
00:31:49.619 --> 00:31:55.019
She's now arrived on a distant alien world where everything's strange and there are creatures of metal and yada, yada, yada.

416
00:31:55.319 --> 00:31:58.500
And so she's a reluctant adventurer because she didn't want this life.

417
00:31:58.980 --> 00:32:07.019
But in like the spirit of the blitz, she's going to pull herself together and go off and do the expedition seconds of story.

418
00:32:07.079 --> 00:32:07.619
Do you know what I mean?

419
00:32:07.680 --> 00:32:09.119
Like, that's what I read it as.

420
00:32:09.599 --> 00:32:10.740
She pulls herself together.

421
00:32:11.400 --> 00:32:12.960
I think that we're reading that into.

422
00:32:13.380 --> 00:32:15.180
Well, I like to be excited into it.

423
00:32:15.779 --> 00:32:20.880
But also, like, she's encountering, like, that metal dead animal.

424
00:32:21.660 --> 00:32:23.279
Magneton, the Magneton.

425
00:32:23.339 --> 00:32:24.839
Which is capable of recharging torches, it seems.

426
00:32:24.960 --> 00:32:35.279
Yeah, awesome They're also encountering for the 1st time, alien creatures, like both humanoids and machines, right?

427
00:32:35.339 --> 00:32:37.799
So they've got to react to that and get used to that.

428
00:32:37.859 --> 00:32:45.240
And then these are the 1st real mega deaths that Ian and Barbara are really encountering as well.

429
00:32:45.359 --> 00:32:51.420
So I kind of think that there is this shift as the show comes together in these episodes.

430
00:32:51.480 --> 00:33:04.799
Like, even at the end, in the last episode where the doctor talks about the evil, senseless killing, like, the Daleks are moving from, well, they're setting them up to be the evil central skillers, like, of the show, you know, as opposed to what they are in the 1st few episodes.

431
00:33:05.220 --> 00:33:10.200
Who'd have thought that that little magnodon would be responsible for moving Earth light years off its course?

432
00:33:12.119 --> 00:33:15.180
Look, I think that scene that you're talking about, Nathan, I actually really like it.

433
00:33:15.359 --> 00:33:15.779
Yes.

434
00:33:15.779 --> 00:33:18.960
And I like the fact that the characters are not fully formed at this stage.

435
00:33:19.319 --> 00:33:21.480
I think Terry's doing interesting things with him.

436
00:33:21.539 --> 00:33:27.660
It's not quite where they'll end up, but I find it a very interesting kind of look into a slight detour.

437
00:33:27.900 --> 00:33:37.259
But also it gives Terry a chance in that sequence to deploy something that is very seldom commented upon, and that is his sparse, elegant dialogue.

438
00:33:38.400 --> 00:33:46.440
So that scene has 2 pieces of dialogue, which are really great when Ian's describing xenophobia and he describes it as dislike for the unlike.

439
00:33:46.799 --> 00:33:49.740
That is a very, very interesting way of talking about that.

440
00:33:50.759 --> 00:33:56.700
And Ian later says, what argument can you make to make a man sacrifice himself for you?

441
00:33:57.119 --> 00:33:59.400
That is a lovely piece of dialogue.

442
00:33:59.940 --> 00:34:01.920
Terry never leads with his characters.

443
00:34:01.980 --> 00:34:03.480
He never leads with the dialogue.

444
00:34:03.539 --> 00:34:09.599
He leads with the situations, but he plugs in some really quite nice flourishes, which I think helped bring the story alive.

445
00:34:10.440 --> 00:34:18.360
I just think, you know, it's not very long before, say, we get the Aztecs and we have between that, we get Marco Polo and Mariners.

446
00:34:18.480 --> 00:34:19.079
Yeah, yeah.

447
00:34:19.139 --> 00:34:26.099
But I mean, you know, the Aztecs, the conflict between the doctor and Barbara, I think, is just better.

448
00:34:26.579 --> 00:34:30.659
And this is this is very early days and we're still finding our way.

449
00:34:30.719 --> 00:34:33.900
How do we write dialogue between all of these characters?

450
00:34:34.500 --> 00:34:36.539
And so it is a little bit functional.

451
00:34:36.599 --> 00:34:43.619
And I think despite the fact that, you know, there are some nice, nicely kind of worded lines and stuff.

452
00:34:43.980 --> 00:34:46.739
I just think it's all a little bit simplistic.

453
00:34:47.159 --> 00:34:53.519
But the thing is, in the Aztecs, by that time, the Tartars team is a team, they've been working together.

454
00:34:53.579 --> 00:34:58.019
So when you get that conflict, it is more heightened, whereas here they're not all together.

455
00:34:58.199 --> 00:35:04.860
So when the conflict happens, it's sort of a bit disjointed and not quite working the way that you say it later on.

456
00:35:05.340 --> 00:35:07.139
I know I cannot prove what I'm saying.

457
00:35:07.559 --> 00:35:14.099
But I would have thought that a lot of the dialogue you're praising Peter and not Terry Nation.

458
00:35:14.159 --> 00:35:15.239
And I can't prove it.

459
00:35:15.300 --> 00:35:25.800
You can't prove it, but given what I've been reading of late in David Whittaker's biography of that year of the show, And when Terry Nation effectively stops being involved with those scripts.

460
00:35:26.639 --> 00:35:36.719
I would be very interested to know where that dialogue comes from because most of the better allegedly terri nation lines in later terri nation stories, I think we can put down to other people as well.

461
00:35:37.440 --> 00:35:38.699
That could possibly be true.

462
00:35:38.940 --> 00:35:50.820
But I will always push back against this because I think that's something people do, like with Genesis of the Daleks, insisting that must have been Robert Holmes, who made it good because they don't want to give Terry his bouquets.

463
00:35:51.000 --> 00:35:52.619
I think that's being oversensitive.

464
00:35:52.739 --> 00:35:56.460
We know that Robert Holmes virtually rewrote most of the scripts.

465
00:35:57.119 --> 00:35:58.320
No, we do not know that.

466
00:35:58.380 --> 00:36:03.059
We know, in Inchcliffe's words, that Robert Holmes came in and tickled up the dialogue.

467
00:36:04.260 --> 00:36:06.900
That's him being polite as well. don't think so.

468
00:36:07.079 --> 00:36:11.280
Because he then went on to say that Terry Nation scripts are what you see on screen.

469
00:36:11.699 --> 00:36:14.219
And, you know, 98% of them is terrination.

470
00:36:14.579 --> 00:36:21.599
And also, we have the illustrative example of Blake 7, where we have on one of the box sets.

471
00:36:21.659 --> 00:36:29.940
We have Stephen Pacey's audition for Tarrant, and that is using the original Terry Nation version of that scene in the episode PowerPlay, 1st scene to be shot for Siri C.

472
00:36:30.300 --> 00:36:34.500
And it's a scene where Terrence talking to Avon and saying what his background is.

473
00:36:35.099 --> 00:36:46.739
And that scene is celebrated for having some great back and forth dialogue. and that dialogue is all terri nation, 100% terri nation, apart from the best line.

474
00:36:49.019 --> 00:36:50.940
Apart from the joke at the end.

475
00:36:50.940 --> 00:36:51.360
Yes.

476
00:36:51.360 --> 00:36:52.440
Was Chris Bouchard.

477
00:36:52.500 --> 00:36:52.980
And that's great.

478
00:36:53.039 --> 00:36:54.960
You know, it makes an already great scene. brilliant.

479
00:36:55.019 --> 00:36:56.280
But that's what a script editor does.

480
00:36:56.340 --> 00:37:00.840
And the fact is, it was an already great scene of dialogue and Terry Nation wrote it.

481
00:37:01.440 --> 00:37:11.400
Fine, but I still maintain that, and I'm saying it's not provable, but I think the tickling up of lines is what turns a good script into a great script.

482
00:37:11.460 --> 00:37:12.300
And Terry knows this.

483
00:37:12.599 --> 00:37:19.800
He knows, especially if he's under a time restraint, that he can give the bones, he can give a great line here and there.

484
00:37:19.860 --> 00:37:24.360
He can give some nice character moments, and the script editor will make it ready for production.

485
00:37:32.880 --> 00:37:38.760
Just more on that sequence where they persuade the files that they've got a fight for their own lives.

486
00:37:39.119 --> 00:37:46.440
I think it's it's a really well-timed, powerful, um, moral, which is, which is in that sequence.

487
00:37:46.440 --> 00:37:50.519
And I think it's, uh, it's even more relevant today than it was in 1963.

488
00:37:51.059 --> 00:38:00.480
See, I think the trouble with it is that it's incredibly muddy because in fact, we only discover that the thaws are fighting for their lives after they've made that decision.

489
00:38:00.539 --> 00:38:01.500
Do you know what I mean?

490
00:38:01.559 --> 00:38:05.519
That the dialects later are deciding to erradiate the planet.

491
00:38:05.639 --> 00:38:06.360
They haven't decided.

492
00:38:06.780 --> 00:38:09.059
No, they'll start a death because their crops have failed.

493
00:38:09.119 --> 00:38:09.780
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

494
00:38:09.900 --> 00:38:12.659
So there's 2 There are multiple threats.

495
00:38:12.719 --> 00:38:14.280
It's not just the data that's going to destroy them.

496
00:38:14.820 --> 00:38:19.440
I'm just saying in terms of that thing of like Ian's line, passivism only works if everyone feels the same.

497
00:38:20.159 --> 00:38:31.920
But I think there's something, I do think that that sort of general approach to the idea of pacifism, which you do get a little bit in the 60s, is, you know, a kind of caricature of pacifism.

498
00:38:31.980 --> 00:38:38.760
And I think there is something a little bit unpleasant about the prospect of, like, where do we get it?

499
00:38:38.820 --> 00:38:40.440
We get it in the dominators, don't we?

500
00:38:40.500 --> 00:38:42.719
Where the pacifists are just...

501
00:38:42.780 --> 00:38:44.940
Yeah, yeah, yeah. you know, ridiculous people.

502
00:38:45.360 --> 00:38:47.579
And we're bordering on that here.

503
00:38:48.179 --> 00:38:57.900
And there's not enough proper weight given to the idea that everything that you see around you is the result of war and that's why they've rejected it.

504
00:38:58.320 --> 00:39:08.340
No, but I think that that's why it's, I think, a more complex thing here because I think that that is, it's lovely actually when Aladon says, when earlier in the argument, it says, like Danie says, you don't understand.

505
00:39:09.000 --> 00:39:14.039
And it is actually a lovely way of doing it because basically you're saying, look, I know what you're saying.

506
00:39:14.159 --> 00:39:17.039
I know what you're saying, but you just don't understand our history.

507
00:39:17.099 --> 00:39:20.760
And so, you know, this is not something we just thought about in the last 5 minutes.

508
00:39:21.179 --> 00:39:37.739
And I think, and I think from that point of view, it's, you know, Ian, et cetera, have to have to persuade them that, yes, we respect and totally understand where you're coming from, but you also have to understand too, that there's a time where we have to stand up for ourselves otherwise we'll be annihilated.

509
00:39:38.159 --> 00:39:40.800
And Nathan, I agree that the dominators take on it is terrible.

510
00:39:40.860 --> 00:39:41.280
Horrible.

511
00:39:41.280 --> 00:39:46.139
I don't think the Dalek's take is because it's not just about pacifism as concept.

512
00:39:46.199 --> 00:39:48.719
It's about pacifism in the face of oppression.

513
00:39:48.780 --> 00:39:49.500
Yes, exactly.

514
00:39:49.559 --> 00:39:51.059
And that is what Terry is always interested in.

515
00:39:51.420 --> 00:39:55.980
Yes, we're not talking about the kind of the Gandhi-esque kind of civil disobedience kind of pacifism.

516
00:39:56.159 --> 00:39:57.659
That's because that's still doing something.

517
00:39:57.900 --> 00:40:00.360
We're talking about, we're talking about effectively surrender.

518
00:40:00.900 --> 00:40:02.519
And he's made, he makes it very clear.

519
00:40:02.579 --> 00:40:04.500
There's a difference between passivism and cowardice.

520
00:40:04.739 --> 00:40:05.579
Oh yes, exactly.

521
00:40:06.119 --> 00:40:20.519
And that's a thing, you know, we're going to be talking about this over the next 11 weeks, but, you know, the idea of cowardice, which is obviously Antidus is, he's the main kind of location that that whole conversation happens, much like, well, total.

522
00:40:20.519 --> 00:40:27.179
You know, like much like the conversation between Codal and the doctor in Planet of the Daleks.

523
00:40:27.780 --> 00:40:32.940
And also the self-sacrifice thing, you know, a character sacrifices himself in order to save everyone else.

524
00:40:33.179 --> 00:40:34.800
You know, that's classic Terry.

525
00:40:34.860 --> 00:40:38.219
Like all of these things that are here in this sort of embryonic form.

526
00:40:38.280 --> 00:40:43.320
We will see sort of developed and reused in later stories, I think.

527
00:40:43.679 --> 00:40:47.579
Terry is intrigued by the nature of war and the nature of conflict.

528
00:40:47.639 --> 00:40:49.199
And I think this all stems from that.

529
00:40:49.739 --> 00:40:52.739
And of course, you have to remember that it's very much leaving memory.

530
00:40:52.739 --> 00:40:53.400
Yes, of course.

531
00:40:53.400 --> 00:40:59.519
You know, there is still large swathes of London that and other cities, which have still got bombed out buildings.

532
00:40:59.820 --> 00:41:06.480
I mean, to some extent, some of the people coming in are the children or they were children during the war, but there's a lot of people who are adults.

533
00:41:06.599 --> 00:41:09.179
Only, what are we talking about 18 years earlier?

534
00:41:09.900 --> 00:41:12.179
It's a different mindset and the world is different.

535
00:41:12.239 --> 00:41:24.539
And I think that the message that is trying to be told there is the fact that, I mean, because it's to try and tell the children who are growing up in this glorious new era of what is effectively peace.

536
00:41:24.599 --> 00:41:26.039
Okay, the Cold War's going on, but here we are.

537
00:41:26.099 --> 00:41:27.179
We do not want another war.

538
00:41:27.239 --> 00:41:36.239
Absolutely not, but at the same time, they're thinking back to the fact that the last war started because we didn't stand up to the oppressor early enough.

539
00:41:36.420 --> 00:41:37.320
We left it too late.

540
00:41:37.619 --> 00:41:39.000
And it's the appeasement.

541
00:41:39.059 --> 00:41:42.420
I think it's as much about appeasement as it is about pacifism.

542
00:41:43.019 --> 00:41:47.460
And you know, Terry always had that kind of, when he created survivors.

543
00:41:47.519 --> 00:41:50.340
It's basically about the end of the world, and he's always been very interested in that.

544
00:41:50.400 --> 00:41:55.920
I read an interview with him where he bought a big pile in the country with his kind of Dalek cash.

545
00:41:56.519 --> 00:42:00.539
And what he said was, nothing's going to remain the same.

546
00:42:00.599 --> 00:42:03.179
He said, something big could be coming in the future.

547
00:42:03.300 --> 00:42:08.099
What you need is a retreat where you can pull up the drawbridge and be self-sufficient.

548
00:42:08.340 --> 00:42:13.260
So this animated him in his personal life, not just in kind of what he enjoyed writing about.

549
00:42:13.800 --> 00:42:20.699
And I think, yes, that the atomic war is there in the background, that idea that everything could be annihilated.

550
00:42:20.760 --> 00:42:23.340
That was a preoccupation of people in the 1960s.

551
00:42:24.059 --> 00:42:31.199
But there's also another reference, a source which I don't think gets commented on enough, and that is HG rolls the time machine.

552
00:42:31.920 --> 00:42:38.219
So, and specifically not just the book, but the 1960 film, which would have been fresh in Terri Nation's mind.

553
00:42:39.000 --> 00:42:44.099
So in the book, they go forward and basically the human race has split into 2 different races.

554
00:42:44.159 --> 00:42:53.159
There's the hideous morlocks who live in their subterranean caverns and the kind of idle, naive Eloi who live outside on the planes.

555
00:42:53.519 --> 00:42:57.659
And people, I think, are probably more familiar with the 1961 film.

556
00:42:57.719 --> 00:43:00.659
But the e-loyer are so correctness that they can't even speak.

557
00:43:01.619 --> 00:43:03.000
And yeah.

558
00:43:03.059 --> 00:43:04.920
And the thing Nathan uses that word correctly.

559
00:43:05.280 --> 00:43:12.119
Yeah, and the thing that has caused the divergence between the 2 groups isn't the nuclear war that you see in the 1st film.

560
00:43:12.900 --> 00:43:15.719
Because we don't have that in...

561
00:43:15.719 --> 00:43:19.500
The E-lawyer, the descendants of the...

562
00:43:19.500 --> 00:43:24.300
Yeah, and the more often, the ones that in who are being sent to darker and darker factory. right.

563
00:43:24.659 --> 00:43:25.380
Yeah, working underground.

564
00:43:25.500 --> 00:43:26.099
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

565
00:43:26.340 --> 00:43:28.619
What was the scene split along sort of class?

566
00:43:28.619 --> 00:43:29.280
Exactly.

567
00:43:29.699 --> 00:43:31.380
Whereas Terrenation doesn't do that.

568
00:43:31.500 --> 00:43:34.500
He's obviously looking at it through the anxieties of the atomic age.

569
00:43:34.980 --> 00:43:47.519
But what's interesting is if you've been watching that film, there's additions to that script which are not in the original book where when George is moving forward in the time machine, the places that he visits before he ends up in the year 800,000.

570
00:43:47.940 --> 00:43:54.119
The 1st World War, the 2nd World War, and an atomic war that's about to break up. 1966, which is the future.

571
00:43:54.300 --> 00:43:55.500
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

572
00:43:55.920 --> 00:44:00.840
And you can't help but think that film is fresh in his mind and this is his take on that story.

573
00:44:01.139 --> 00:44:02.340
Oh, absolutely it is.

574
00:44:02.400 --> 00:44:06.239
And so you have 2 groups that have mutated.

575
00:44:06.659 --> 00:44:10.260
And, you know, Terry Nation think about in terminal.

576
00:44:10.739 --> 00:44:14.519
He thinks that there is an end point to evolution.

577
00:44:14.519 --> 00:44:20.400
And that endpoint is the Tyran Wood beast that eats people's clothes, right?

578
00:44:20.460 --> 00:44:21.780
That that's what we turn into.

579
00:44:21.960 --> 00:44:24.539
It is what mankind will be.

580
00:44:24.539 --> 00:44:27.659
Which is a tremendous line in a truly superb episode.

581
00:44:29.219 --> 00:44:43.440
And so we have this sort of weird idea that the files have mutated into their sort of final form and that they've kind of gone round, you know, they were disgustingly mutated, like the Daleks and now they've gone full circles.

582
00:44:43.800 --> 00:44:45.119
Gustingly mutated.

583
00:44:46.079 --> 00:44:49.320
And all of that slightly kind of awkward, isn't it?

584
00:44:49.500 --> 00:44:56.820
Well, it's all very end of history. every era, even the modern era, we all think that we've reached this final point.

585
00:44:57.599 --> 00:44:59.159
Everything is going to be the same from now on.

586
00:45:00.300 --> 00:45:01.079
I think that's it.

587
00:45:01.260 --> 00:45:12.420
And, you know, there's a kind of eugenics kind of feel to the whole thing because that's just in the air generally and it's not just the, you know, the province of the extreme right, the way it is now, I think.

588
00:45:12.840 --> 00:45:14.940
But it does mean that everyone looks the same.

589
00:45:15.000 --> 00:45:17.099
I think that's a big problem.

590
00:45:17.880 --> 00:45:19.019
All the men look the same.

591
00:45:19.559 --> 00:45:22.019
No, they've got very different jaw lines.

592
00:45:22.500 --> 00:45:24.000
Simon, you are splitting heads.

593
00:45:25.440 --> 00:45:26.400
Or hairlines.

594
00:45:26.820 --> 00:45:28.619
Some of the extras are incredibly ancient.

595
00:45:30.000 --> 00:45:33.300
See, well, I like the fact that there's a disparate age group.

596
00:45:33.360 --> 00:45:35.159
Oh, young sort of.

597
00:45:35.699 --> 00:45:39.900
Look, Barbara says, do you think that pacifism can become a human instinct?

598
00:45:39.960 --> 00:45:41.099
That's very Eloy.

599
00:45:41.340 --> 00:45:42.119
Yeah, yeah.

600
00:45:42.840 --> 00:45:50.940
Also, I just get a little kick out of the fact that the simple brilliance of the Daleks may have been inspired by the simple mediocrity of time lash.

601
00:45:53.099 --> 00:45:53.519
Yeah.

602
00:45:53.519 --> 00:46:03.000
But back to what you were saying, like, you know, the warrior race of stars and our farmers and the Daleks were teachers.

603
00:46:03.000 --> 00:46:06.599
Like, all of that stuff is sort of weirdly interesting as well.

604
00:46:06.659 --> 00:46:34.139
And someone, it's suggested that there is a history here that's kind of in itself interesting, that this isn't just like the Star Trek planet which didn't exist before we arrived and is here to make an important point about, you know, racism or something. the Daleks and the and the files are given some kind of history. which I think is kind of interesting.

605
00:46:34.739 --> 00:46:41.639
I mean, it is, it is in a sense that sort of classic science fiction idea of a race that's diverged.

606
00:46:41.699 --> 00:46:45.960
Like they're called different races, but it does sound like they were the same people.

607
00:46:46.079 --> 00:46:46.980
Do you know what I mean?

608
00:46:47.039 --> 00:46:49.139
Like the same sort of thing as well?

609
00:46:50.099 --> 00:46:50.940
Species.

610
00:46:51.539 --> 00:46:53.940
The fact that the files were the warriors ones.

611
00:46:54.599 --> 00:46:57.599
One could imagine that the tharls had started the war in the 1st place.

612
00:46:57.719 --> 00:46:58.440
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

613
00:46:58.500 --> 00:46:58.980
Absolutely.

614
00:46:59.280 --> 00:47:03.300
And I do think, I mean, I take your point, Nathan, but I do think the files are well presented.

615
00:47:03.420 --> 00:47:10.500
They say sort of the same holistic look and feel, the same attention that's given to the Daleks, I think.

616
00:47:11.159 --> 00:47:17.460
And I also appreciate that Temesis goes on to become governor Erica Davidson's lover and prisoner.

617
00:47:19.800 --> 00:47:21.239
Does he wear the same pants?

618
00:47:22.440 --> 00:47:24.300
I mean, behind closed doors, who can say?

619
00:47:31.800 --> 00:47:34.260
What do we think the weaknesses are in the script?

620
00:47:34.559 --> 00:47:35.460
There aren't any.

621
00:47:37.800 --> 00:47:41.880
Yeah, I don't think there are there are very many weaknesses in the script.

622
00:47:41.940 --> 00:47:51.239
The only thing one could criticise is that yes, perhaps it all unfolds a little slower than one would like.

623
00:47:51.420 --> 00:48:02.820
However, however, what it's doing, of course, is using the realities of the fact that they're shooting the entire episode and only that episode in a studio with a certain number of sets.

624
00:48:02.820 --> 00:48:10.260
And I think this, despite the slowness, at times, I would call it deliberate rather than plotting, if I can put it that way.

625
00:48:10.679 --> 00:48:13.860
I would also say that I actually don't think it unfolds very slowly.

626
00:48:13.980 --> 00:48:20.639
I think it unfolds at a really good and interesting pace until it reaches the penultimate episode where it stalls.

627
00:48:21.360 --> 00:48:23.340
We have some really interesting timings.

628
00:48:23.400 --> 00:48:26.519
Like, you know, when you look at the city, how far away is that?

629
00:48:26.639 --> 00:48:31.079
Then we're going to take 3 or 4 days to go over the mountains and it's one of Terry's things.

630
00:48:31.139 --> 00:48:32.340
We're going around the back effectively.

631
00:48:32.460 --> 00:48:34.980
Yeah, but what I'm saying is the timings of all that.

632
00:48:34.980 --> 00:48:45.719
I don't personally think make total sense and then we've got the vibroscope and we've got all the flashing radio waves and the television stuff like his timings in a lot of things don't make sense to me.

633
00:48:46.139 --> 00:48:47.519
There are a lot of scopes, aren't there?

634
00:48:47.579 --> 00:48:51.719
There's the ranger scope and the vibroscope and the laser scope and the...

635
00:48:52.199 --> 00:48:54.000
Back to what you're saying about it being plotting.

636
00:48:54.000 --> 00:48:55.019
Not plotting.

637
00:48:55.079 --> 00:48:56.099
Not plotting.

638
00:48:56.280 --> 00:48:58.860
It's a product of its time on television, right?

639
00:48:58.980 --> 00:49:07.380
So when you put a modern day lens on it and you watch it with that, you can sit there going, oh my goodness, like this is taking forever.

640
00:49:07.679 --> 00:49:12.780
And I remember, and you were there, and I think you and you were there.

641
00:49:13.920 --> 00:49:15.300
And you were there.

642
00:49:15.300 --> 00:49:23.099
When I 1st saw this, which was at a Doctor Who convention in Sydney, was it who invention?

643
00:49:23.219 --> 00:49:25.739
No, it was just one of the Dallas called them parties.

644
00:49:26.820 --> 00:49:27.900
We call them.

645
00:49:27.960 --> 00:49:28.920
We call them Dallas Days.

646
00:49:29.099 --> 00:49:32.699
We were watching this in Cars Law Theatre.

647
00:49:33.420 --> 00:49:34.860
Which is a lecture theatre. in university.

648
00:49:35.280 --> 00:49:39.300
And you don't watch this in one big...

649
00:49:39.420 --> 00:49:40.619
But that's what we were doing.

650
00:49:40.920 --> 00:49:42.360
When I came back to watch...

651
00:49:42.420 --> 00:49:43.079
It was 2 blobs.

652
00:49:43.980 --> 00:49:47.699
I watched it in separate episodes or maybe 2 at the most.

653
00:49:48.480 --> 00:50:00.719
We got up to episode 5 and then I think I turned to you or something. said, like, this is supposed to be a 7 episode story, like, I mean, they're back at the ship, and then he goes, oh, they're fluidly, give me the fluid, like, oh, no, it's back in the city.

654
00:50:00.780 --> 00:50:04.860
Well, there's groan just went down the entire theatre going, oh.

655
00:50:05.219 --> 00:50:06.780
There's 2 more episodes of this.

656
00:50:07.019 --> 00:50:08.039
I think three.

657
00:50:08.099 --> 00:50:14.039
But we were we were sitting on very uncomfortable benches to design for university students.

658
00:50:14.039 --> 00:50:15.719
Obviously, we were with that age at the time.

659
00:50:18.539 --> 00:50:19.199
We're at school.

660
00:50:19.260 --> 00:50:21.300
We're only 16 or something like that.

661
00:50:22.139 --> 00:50:24.119
And we had that mindset.

662
00:50:24.179 --> 00:50:25.139
Like, I come back to it now.

663
00:50:25.440 --> 00:50:29.280
And that was your 1st encounter with a Hartnell story, wasn't it?

664
00:50:29.340 --> 00:50:31.440
I'd seen Planet of Giants at the previous one.

665
00:50:31.920 --> 00:50:34.079
And so I was thinking, 0 gosh.

666
00:50:34.139 --> 00:50:37.920
So it is interesting, but it's a correct reaction to play...

667
00:50:38.219 --> 00:50:43.619
No, but it's interesting because going back to what you're saying, yes, it is to Peter first. what you were saying, it is gripping.

668
00:50:43.679 --> 00:50:45.420
I actually do find it very gripping.

669
00:50:45.480 --> 00:50:47.639
I'm just observing that by modern standards.

670
00:50:47.699 --> 00:50:50.579
It does progress slower than one would do it now.

671
00:50:50.639 --> 00:50:57.119
And Todd, though, that my, from my 1st reaction from that day, I went, oh, gosh, it's just so boring and terrible.

672
00:50:57.179 --> 00:51:05.340
And then the VHS came out and I was absolutely transfixed when I was watching it in the comfort of my own lounge room and being able to watch it.

673
00:51:05.519 --> 00:51:06.780
One episode or all of it.

674
00:51:06.840 --> 00:51:11.159
In fact, I did actually manage to watch the entire thing in one hit and I was entranced the entire time.

675
00:51:11.219 --> 00:51:12.840
But yes, in a lecture theatre, not so much.

676
00:51:13.139 --> 00:51:15.480
I think it's taken me 35 years to appreciate this.

677
00:51:15.539 --> 00:51:15.780
Really?

678
00:51:15.780 --> 00:51:19.739
Like I've watched it before and really gone, 0 my god, there's this and there's that.

679
00:51:20.039 --> 00:51:21.840
But really this time round.

680
00:51:22.500 --> 00:51:31.440
Seeing the science fact, seeing the crew evolve, seeing what the dialogue is and what they're discussing and all these different aspects, right?

681
00:51:31.500 --> 00:51:46.800
And then the whole structure of the thing, you know, whether they're having to work together to escape the city or they have to go through the swamp, like all the terry nation stuff that we've got to do, I really just appreciate it, all of that storytelling, and, you know, what they could do with what they had at the time.

682
00:51:47.579 --> 00:51:51.000
I think that the story isn't complete at the end of episode four.

683
00:51:51.539 --> 00:51:53.159
Because we've had the ambush.

684
00:51:53.519 --> 00:51:56.940
We need to go back and confront them again.

685
00:51:57.000 --> 00:52:09.599
I think the story keeps the Daleks away from the human characters for far too long and we just have scenes where there are Daleks talking to one another, but because he doesn't know what he has yet.

686
00:52:09.719 --> 00:52:12.059
And because he doesn't know how important the Daleks are.

687
00:52:12.239 --> 00:52:25.500
The scenes with just the Daleks talking to one another aren't as compelling as the sequences where it's our crew talking to the Daleks, and there is a very, very long period of time where our crew up with a file to it, not that interesting.

688
00:52:25.860 --> 00:52:29.099
And so we don't get enough Dalek stuff.

689
00:52:29.340 --> 00:52:31.320
And he won't make that mistake again.

690
00:52:31.559 --> 00:52:32.219
That's a thing.

691
00:52:32.460 --> 00:52:34.019
Yeah, see, I had the complete opposite view.

692
00:52:34.079 --> 00:52:49.860
I think it's because the Daleks are more to the background and on the side and because, you know, yes, you have a few, you have enough sequences and I don't think too many sequences of Daleks talking to each other, you get far fewer, then you start to end up within length of the chase and master plan and so on like that.

693
00:52:50.099 --> 00:52:52.619
And this is one of the things that I said when we did Paris.

694
00:52:52.739 --> 00:52:54.000
So they're talking to each other about something.

695
00:52:54.420 --> 00:52:55.019
Yes, exactly.

696
00:52:55.019 --> 00:52:56.639
I'm saying we're going to...

697
00:52:56.639 --> 00:52:58.260
When we did Power of the Dialects.

698
00:52:58.320 --> 00:53:03.300
I specifically said one of the strongest things about it is the fact that the Daleks are hardly in it for the 1st half and then they...

699
00:53:03.360 --> 00:53:06.300
And likewise, Genesis of the Daleks is one of the reasons it works so well.

700
00:53:06.599 --> 00:53:08.639
They become tedious if you have too much of them.

701
00:53:08.699 --> 00:53:10.260
But you do have the doctor talking to them.

702
00:53:10.320 --> 00:53:12.659
You have Susan talking to them when they're interrogated and so on.

703
00:53:13.079 --> 00:53:13.800
Yeah, yeah.

704
00:53:14.219 --> 00:53:21.420
But like in episode six, like we tune in for some great Dalek action and we're just going across a chasm for like 25 years.

705
00:53:21.539 --> 00:53:27.239
As mentioned earlier, that is probably the part where you go, okay, people, let's get on with this.

706
00:53:27.300 --> 00:53:31.199
Yeah, just to add my ¢2 on that end of episode four, we've got to go back to the city.

707
00:53:31.380 --> 00:53:33.420
I think that's actually a terribly dramatic.

708
00:53:33.659 --> 00:53:34.139
It is.

709
00:53:34.139 --> 00:53:35.219
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

710
00:53:35.280 --> 00:53:39.960
And I think it's a really good cliffhanger once it makes you want to see what happens next.

711
00:53:40.019 --> 00:53:42.119
But also, it's Terry's meat and drink.

712
00:53:42.179 --> 00:53:43.619
He is the writer of cereals.

713
00:53:43.679 --> 00:53:45.239
He likes cliffhangers.

714
00:53:45.960 --> 00:53:56.039
He's all about captures and escapes and reversals, which if that is a major example of a reversal because he knows what will keep people tuning in episode to episode.

715
00:53:56.159 --> 00:53:59.699
He turns his ideas into action adventure storytelling.

716
00:53:59.760 --> 00:54:00.539
That's at the heart of it.

717
00:54:00.840 --> 00:54:04.260
Look, I agree with you and I like that cliffhanger now.

718
00:54:04.320 --> 00:54:05.159
Like it's really...

719
00:54:05.159 --> 00:54:07.440
It's just... in 1988, not so much.

720
00:54:08.519 --> 00:54:09.780
It takes me back to that point.

721
00:54:09.960 --> 00:54:10.440
It does.

722
00:54:10.440 --> 00:54:11.219
It really does.

723
00:54:11.280 --> 00:54:20.820
But, like, you know, I mean, even after that, when the doctor says, like, you know, my trick has rebounded on me, it's not like they have another all in sort of discussion brawl about it. like between the crew.

724
00:54:20.880 --> 00:54:22.980
It's just like, well, it's happened and I made that mistake.

725
00:54:23.880 --> 00:54:24.719
And we're moving on.

726
00:54:25.199 --> 00:54:26.880
I think Ian shuts it down, doesn't he?

727
00:54:26.940 --> 00:54:27.840
Does Ian shut it down?

728
00:54:28.139 --> 00:54:32.400
And he was the one who really reacted to that in episode 2 where he calls the doctor, you fool.

729
00:54:33.000 --> 00:54:33.659
Old fool.

730
00:54:33.840 --> 00:54:34.739
Yeah, really good.

731
00:54:42.300 --> 00:54:54.300
In terms of praise from the upper echelons, and I think it is canonical, Sidney Newman said when he saw the script, says, oh, these are bugeyed monsters, I specifically said, we're not doing bugeyed monsters, and Verity said, no, they're not their, you know, scientists that are yada, yada, yada.

732
00:54:54.360 --> 00:54:56.579
So Sidney Newman is sceptical about it.

733
00:54:56.639 --> 00:54:58.260
And as I said, Donald Wilson was as well.

734
00:54:58.380 --> 00:55:03.780
So when we think about this, this is going out like episodes one, 2, and 3 are kind of the 3 weeks surrounding Christmas and New Year.

735
00:55:03.840 --> 00:55:04.199
Okay?

736
00:55:04.440 --> 00:55:07.500
So episode 3 goes out, whatever the Saturday is after New Year.

737
00:55:07.980 --> 00:55:09.420
Sydney Newman to capture.

738
00:55:09.480 --> 00:55:09.840
Yes.

739
00:55:10.500 --> 00:55:13.920
Sydney Newman, rather than having seen it probably because he was away the week before.

740
00:55:14.039 --> 00:55:17.699
So he's watching it with his family on the day it goes out.

741
00:55:18.059 --> 00:55:23.280
Episode three, which prompts him to write a memo to verity saying how brilliant it was.

742
00:55:23.400 --> 00:55:25.860
And yes, this is exactly what I want from the show.

743
00:55:25.920 --> 00:55:28.920
The way they work out about the static electricity and they work about the door.

744
00:55:28.980 --> 00:55:35.760
And they put their wits together and work out how are they going to get out of this cell and so that was basically Sidney Newman saying, yes, this is what I want.

745
00:55:36.059 --> 00:55:38.699
And isn't that the episode where the ratings actually take off?

746
00:55:38.760 --> 00:55:39.360
Like, isn't it?

747
00:55:39.480 --> 00:55:42.960
Yeah, they take off a bit website, too, but of course it's episode 3 that they start to then...

748
00:55:43.019 --> 00:55:46.320
People like the cliffhanger with the same plunger, but then they really like it when they see the dialogue.

749
00:55:46.380 --> 00:55:47.820
Because, well, it's just a sink plunger.

750
00:55:47.880 --> 00:55:48.780
And they think, oh, that was interesting.

751
00:55:48.840 --> 00:55:56.039
And it's, you know, there's obviously an audience developing for the series and it's actually around this time that David Whittaker is starting to have to, as part of his job, starting to deal with fan mail.

752
00:55:56.460 --> 00:55:57.900
They start getting fan mail.

753
00:55:58.019 --> 00:56:00.539
And in fact, there's one bit of fan mail, which is hilarious.

754
00:56:00.599 --> 00:56:07.199
So there's a very distressed child that writes to him after episode 6 goes out. you know, this is back in the day where there's 2 male services a day.

755
00:56:07.260 --> 00:56:08.400
So you can get letters.

756
00:56:08.460 --> 00:56:09.659
It's not like the modern era.

757
00:56:09.719 --> 00:56:10.860
It's almost as good as email.

758
00:56:11.400 --> 00:56:16.440
And basically utterly distressed because he's going to have to miss episode 7 the next week.

759
00:56:16.679 --> 00:56:20.519
And David Whittaker writes back to him with a brief synopsis of what's going to happen.

760
00:56:20.579 --> 00:56:20.880
Oh wow.

761
00:56:20.880 --> 00:56:21.840
Isn't that amazing?

762
00:56:22.260 --> 00:56:25.260
Can you please organise for a video release in 30 years?

763
00:56:27.239 --> 00:56:28.320
But isn't that marvellous?

764
00:56:28.559 --> 00:56:40.559
But obviously, like, you know, with that upswing in the ratings and what Newman has said to them, they obviously then have the confidence from this point forward with the scripts, and I assume less interference from other people.

765
00:56:41.099 --> 00:56:41.639
Oh, yes.

766
00:56:41.699 --> 00:56:43.800
Remember, the series is it's threatening cancellation.

767
00:56:43.860 --> 00:56:46.260
At one point, they want to cancel it after an unearthly child.

768
00:56:46.320 --> 00:56:49.920
Then they say, okay, we'll give you 13 episodes, which is the reason edge of destruction exists.

769
00:56:49.980 --> 00:56:55.139
Not because Marco Polo wasn't ready, but because they needed to be able to end it at 13.

770
00:56:55.380 --> 00:56:59.159
And that's the reason why you have 7 and 6 because that's a 2nd 13 block.

771
00:56:59.460 --> 00:57:03.659
And then it starts getting renewed during the Daleks, they're confirmed they'll be doing 26 episodes.

772
00:57:03.780 --> 00:57:08.219
It's when the Daleks are going, but they still haven't committed to it as an ongoing series just yet.

773
00:57:08.699 --> 00:57:14.880
But this is an interesting thing because, of course, the Daleks, as we've often said, changes the direction of what the show is going to become.

774
00:57:15.179 --> 00:57:21.300
So it's when episode 5 has just gone out that they're not sure what's happening after Marco Polo yet.

775
00:57:21.360 --> 00:57:30.599
Are they going to do the Malcolm Hulk hidden planet slash beyond the sun story, or are they going to do the Anthony Coburn story, both of which they're having problems with because it's just not.

776
00:57:30.659 --> 00:57:32.159
They just don't think it's working.

777
00:57:32.159 --> 00:57:35.460
And it's when the Daleks is going out that they realise, no, this is what we're doing.

778
00:57:35.460 --> 00:57:39.659
And they effectively kick both of those stories off into the long grass.

779
00:57:40.019 --> 00:57:42.300
They also tell Terry, stop rising the red fort.

780
00:57:42.659 --> 00:57:44.280
No, the Red Fort's still an idea.

781
00:57:44.519 --> 00:57:50.099
They commission him around it when episode 5 is airing to write keys of Marinace as the next sign to me.

782
00:57:50.159 --> 00:57:58.380
And it's at that time because also Witiki is very happy with John Lucarati doing Marco Polo and then immediately commissions him to do Aztecs.

783
00:57:58.440 --> 00:58:04.260
And so because he's had such a terrible time getting writers who get the show, he decides he's going to.

784
00:58:04.320 --> 00:58:05.159
Okay, no, forget that.

785
00:58:05.159 --> 00:58:08.219
We're going to have a small pool of rice that we're just going to kind of alternate in between.

786
00:58:08.340 --> 00:58:13.800
And yes, you do have other ones too, that come in, but mainly they're trying to create a stable of writers.

787
00:58:14.400 --> 00:58:24.239
David wanted to write a full story, but this is when the writers union was having a thing about the fact that all these script editors were walking around the corridors, commissioning each other to do scripts.

788
00:58:24.300 --> 00:58:30.659
So there was this kind of band push on that, that he could get away with edge of destruction, given the circumstances, but he was going to write, basically the reign of terrorist slots.

789
00:58:30.719 --> 00:58:31.500
But also...

790
00:58:31.619 --> 00:58:33.119
And even as late as like 1983 then.

791
00:58:33.179 --> 00:58:35.519
Oh, yeah, there were some waivers to get Terence to write something.

792
00:58:35.699 --> 00:58:36.119
Exactly.

793
00:58:36.659 --> 00:58:45.719
But all of the science fictionist stories in that original pitch document are all kind of just weird concepts that, and how do you actually stretch that out to 4 and 6 episodes?

794
00:58:46.199 --> 00:58:47.820
See, for instance, the senssorites.

795
00:58:48.059 --> 00:58:51.179
Well, and the sensory rights is probably a good example of that.

796
00:58:51.179 --> 00:58:56.340
I would argue the space museum is another because that was always in the original briefing document a going sideways kind of thing.

797
00:58:56.519 --> 00:58:57.659
And Planet of Giants.

798
00:58:57.719 --> 00:58:59.340
Another one, which we kind of look back on.

799
00:58:59.579 --> 00:59:01.739
Well, that was kind of an interesting idea, but it wasn't that successful.

800
00:59:02.039 --> 00:59:04.980
They're all remnants of the original raving document.

801
00:59:05.039 --> 00:59:14.699
And that all goes out the window with the Daleks and the historicals as well, because they're getting massive audience reactions from the Daleks, their audience survey things.

802
00:59:14.820 --> 00:59:23.460
By the time you get even to Marco Polo, which I know it doesn't exist, but having watched reconstructions, I'm very confident, is a very strong dramatic story.

803
00:59:23.880 --> 00:59:30.119
People are saying this is boring and even William Russell is saying, well, wait a minute, we're hardly in this.

804
00:59:30.179 --> 00:59:32.280
It's just basically about the guest characters.

805
00:59:32.579 --> 00:59:37.380
And so that's why historical start being only 4 episodes, if you notice, after Anatera.

806
00:59:37.739 --> 00:59:45.420
I mean, I think that one of the things that this does and that Marco Polo does is that it's not quite a story in the same way that we'll eventually...

807
00:59:45.480 --> 00:59:45.840
No, exactly.

808
00:59:46.380 --> 00:59:49.619
On. Because when Marco Polo's written, the series isn't really started.

809
00:59:49.679 --> 00:59:50.280
Yeah, yeah.

810
00:59:50.340 --> 00:59:52.739
So it's just, here's a bunch of stuff that happens over 6 weeks.

811
00:59:53.099 --> 00:59:55.260
Yes, and we're just here to observe it.

812
00:59:55.619 --> 00:59:56.340
But it's interesting.

813
00:59:56.400 --> 00:59:58.920
Like, here's our action adventure story, science fiction.

814
00:59:58.980 --> 01:00:01.320
And who's our next action adventure story written by?

815
01:00:02.159 --> 01:00:02.579
Yeah.

816
01:00:02.579 --> 01:00:08.760
So you have 2 stabs at this before other people are really coming in to do the same thing, setting a scene for what is to come.

817
01:00:09.539 --> 01:00:13.139
And if you look at one of the 1st science fiction stories, Daleks, Terry Nation.

818
01:00:13.199 --> 01:00:16.019
Tarinas, Tarination, Sensorites by somebody else.

819
01:00:16.380 --> 01:00:18.420
Then the Darlic Invasion of Earth, Terry Nation.

820
01:00:18.840 --> 01:00:26.340
And 3 of those 4 stories, you can draw a line from them to the Shooter Gatwa era.

821
01:00:26.400 --> 01:00:26.760
Yeah.

822
01:00:26.760 --> 01:00:29.280
The sensor rights is a different show.

823
01:00:29.760 --> 01:00:30.119
Yeah.

824
01:00:30.119 --> 01:00:38.760
I think there's a strong argument to be made that the only really successful science fiction stories of the Hahnal era are written by Terry Nation.

825
01:00:39.659 --> 01:00:43.500
Yes, war machines, you could argue, is the next example.

826
01:00:45.059 --> 01:00:48.059
Terry was a jobbing writer for hire.

827
01:00:48.119 --> 01:00:57.420
So he worked on kind of action drama series for ITV or ATV or whoever, but we also know that he would create series formats.

828
01:00:57.480 --> 01:00:59.880
We know that from the survivors and Blake 7 going forward.

829
01:01:00.360 --> 01:01:03.539
MacGyver, he pretty well created the series format in the 90s.

830
01:01:03.900 --> 01:01:11.400
So what I think he brings is this sensibility of not just how to make a series, but how to make the action repeatable as a format.

831
01:01:11.519 --> 01:01:20.880
And so he lays down the idea of how a Doctor Who story should feel and how it should run, like the structure of how a Doctor Who story should work.

832
01:01:21.239 --> 01:01:24.659
And I think that's possibly the most important thing that he brings to the show.

833
01:01:25.079 --> 01:01:35.039
He's formatting the series in his own head and he's deviating a little bit from the established format that's been set up and thinking, no, this needs to be something else so that it can run and run.

834
01:01:35.400 --> 01:01:36.900
I think that's what he brings to the show.

835
01:02:05.159 --> 01:02:07.079
Well, that's all the time we had for this week.

836
01:02:07.260 --> 01:02:14.639
You'll be back next week to help an old man fix the computer that controls his wayward populace in the Keys of Mariners.

837
01:02:14.699 --> 01:02:16.380
So I do with my dad every weekend.

838
01:02:18.119 --> 01:02:35.460
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts and you can keep up with us on our website, 500yearDiary.com, where you'll find our social media links as well as links to all of our other podcasts, including the entirety of flights or entirety, which comprises every episode of our 4 Doctor Who podcasts.

839
01:02:36.539 --> 01:02:41.519
Until next time, may your week be directed by Christopher Barry rather than Richard Martin.

840
01:02:42.599 --> 01:02:44.579
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

841
01:02:44.940 --> 01:02:45.539
Good night.

842
01:02:45.599 --> 01:02:46.260
Bye bye.

843
01:02:46.500 --> 01:02:47.280
See you soon.

844
01:02:59.039 --> 01:03:04.619
That was 500 Year Diary, starring Todd Bealby, Nathan Bottomley, Peter Griffiths, and Simon Moore.

845
01:03:04.800 --> 01:03:07.079
The theme was composed by Cameron Lamb.

846
01:03:07.440 --> 01:03:15.000
This episode, captures and escapes and reversals, was recorded on the 24th of May 2026 and released on the 16th of August.

847
01:03:16.440 --> 01:03:32.460
Turns out that the most important sync plunger in television history was wielded by Michael Ferguson, which is just the sort of fun fact that I like to deploy at surprising moments, to delight my workmates, people I meet in bus cues, and my rapidly dwindling circle of friends.

848
01:03:44.820 --> 01:03:45.480
My God.

849
01:03:46.260 --> 01:03:47.159
He created the show.

850
01:03:47.519 --> 01:03:48.900
Oh, yes, absolutely.

851
01:03:48.900 --> 01:03:49.380
100%.

852
01:03:49.559 --> 01:03:53.159
In fact, if you believe trivial pursuit in the 1980s, He did create.

853
01:03:53.760 --> 01:03:59.880
Yeah, it's not it's not unreasonable to say that we would not be sitting here talking to each other now, were it not for tearing action.

854
01:03:59.940 --> 01:04:01.920
I mean, I mean, that's true of a heap of people, though.

855
01:04:01.980 --> 01:04:04.139
David Whitaker, I think, creates the show.

856
01:04:04.679 --> 01:04:05.460
David, what did you get?

857
01:04:05.519 --> 01:04:11.400
But even then, and I'll talk about that when we're talking about keys of Marinus, um, in terms of from that point of view.

858
01:04:11.579 --> 01:04:19.800
Obviously, they all do, but Terry Nation is the one that, through his script, which other people obviously work on and editors, they say, he's the, that's the, that's the template.

859
01:04:19.860 --> 01:04:21.719
It's the template, the catalyst.

860
01:04:21.780 --> 01:04:23.280
Yes, it becomes a template.

861
01:04:23.400 --> 01:04:26.400
Terry took the bones and he made a living thing by the end of this story.

862
01:04:26.460 --> 01:04:28.920
It's Terry Nation's world and everyone else just living in it.

863
01:04:29.219 --> 01:04:42.119
But at the same time, I think that, though, that he, by the time we get to the chase and dark master plan, I think things are, he's not being, I think, Terry, you're right, is a jobbing writer, and that's got the positive that he can churn something out.

864
01:04:42.480 --> 01:04:43.139
It all works.

865
01:04:43.199 --> 01:04:44.340
It all kind of makes a sort of sense.

866
01:04:44.880 --> 01:04:59.340
The disadvantage of that is that he's a jobbing writer and that he basically, he kind of just is happy just to kind of churn the same thing out, especially in an era when there are no repeats and no videos and so people aren't, might not recognise that this is a sort of a similar plot to before.

867
01:04:59.579 --> 01:05:01.860
But he's getting an out, he's getting something on the screen.

868
01:05:02.699 --> 01:05:10.739
And the idea that being a jobbing writer, just turning out efficient scripts on time with things that people recognise is in any way a bad...

869
01:05:10.800 --> 01:05:11.039
Exactly.

870
01:05:11.039 --> 01:05:14.039
That's what we liked about Terrence Dix. you know, precisely the same sort of thing.

871
01:05:14.519 --> 01:05:18.780
We need something we do, you know, what Barry Lett said, you know, with the last thing we want is to have the test card.

872
01:05:18.840 --> 01:05:19.320
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

873
01:05:19.380 --> 01:05:21.300
Something propulsive. you know, where things happen.

874
01:05:21.360 --> 01:05:22.260
Oh, yes, yes, yes.

875
01:05:22.320 --> 01:05:22.800
That's right.

876
01:05:22.860 --> 01:05:24.239
And that's the positive take on Terry.

877
01:05:24.300 --> 01:05:30.659
I think the least positive take is that he's a hack for the same reasons, but I think there is a golf between those two.

878
01:05:30.900 --> 01:05:40.559
I just think Hack is like a, like, you know, like a, some way of being negative about someone doing their job.

879
01:05:41.039 --> 01:05:42.119
Do you know what I mean?

880
01:05:42.179 --> 01:05:52.980
Like, he's just someone who's, like, he's not Shakespeare and he's not creating, you know, eyebrow literature, you know, but he is, yeah, it's where art meets craft.

881
01:05:53.400 --> 01:05:56.820
It's the fact that you need you need, you know, at the end of the day, this is a job.

882
01:05:56.880 --> 01:05:58.260
Your job is to produce scripts.

883
01:05:59.159 --> 01:06:02.280
But at the same time, there is an artistic aspect to it.

884
01:06:02.340 --> 01:06:05.219
I think I said last season, there is a tension between those 2 aspects.

885
01:06:05.579 --> 01:06:10.679
Well, I think I said the season before last that, you know, art without craft is just basically wank, isn't it?

886
01:06:10.739 --> 01:06:11.219
Yes, exactly.

887
01:06:11.280 --> 01:06:11.639
Yeah, exactly.

888
01:06:11.639 --> 01:06:12.719
Like pornography.

889
01:06:12.780 --> 01:06:13.079
Yeah.

890
01:06:14.699 --> 01:06:29.820
I know I know we don't do picks, but I do need to acknowledge, and which I'll be talking about in the Keys of Marinus episode as well. acknowledge the biography of David Whittaker, which I've been reading, which goes into excruciating detail about his life.

891
01:06:30.179 --> 01:06:35.519
If you like that, it's definitely worth getting David Whittaker in an exciting adventure with television.

892
01:06:35.880 --> 01:06:42.119
And it really, I've only read up to the point where he leaves Doctor Who at the end of season one and there's still half the book to go.

893
01:06:42.780 --> 01:06:50.880
But he's, but basically understanding David Whittaker's work before Doctor Who, and because he starts out as an actor as well.

894
01:06:51.000 --> 01:06:51.900
It really does.

895
01:06:51.960 --> 01:06:57.239
You really understand how he makes and how he moulds Doctor Who.

896
01:06:57.300 --> 01:06:58.260
Was it mercurial?

897
01:06:59.039 --> 01:07:01.920
That actually comes up before Doctor Who, believe it or not.

898
01:07:02.219 --> 01:07:17.039
No, it's as well as the fact that the, a lot of the original titles in elderly child, like all the character names, between him and his brother's house, which is about a 10 minute walk and they'd eat each other, he'd go over there for dinner, he and his wife would go.

899
01:07:17.099 --> 01:07:18.239
Because his brother-in-law Cal.

900
01:07:19.440 --> 01:07:22.320
But basically...

901
01:07:22.320 --> 01:07:25.260
Chesterton Real Estate on the way.

902
01:07:25.739 --> 01:07:27.780
Sure, it wasn't right right Avenue.

903
01:07:28.079 --> 01:07:29.820
Or basically a lot foreman.

904
01:07:29.940 --> 01:07:37.199
Basically most of the most of the characters' names are between the walk on the walk between his home and his brother. fantastic.

905
01:07:37.260 --> 01:07:38.639
He probably called his mum old mother.