Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to 500 year diary.
The only Doctor Who podcast that's just thought of an excellent
way you can get out of buying Christmas presents for your nieces
and nephews this year.
I'm Nathan.
I'm Adam.
And I'm Todd.
It's Friday, the 10th of July, 2009.
It's been just over 23 hours since the government decided to hand
over the horrid people's children to this season's rubbery alien
menace.
And tonight, again, about 6000000 people have tuned in to watch
our heroes heroically saving the day.
Let's see how they manage that as we discuss torchwood, children
of earth, day five.
So, we start this week with Prime Minister Green, giving us a
solemn message about what to do with our children.
Do we?
Pretty much.
Doesn't Gwen have some sort of...
Oh, yeah, she talks into sequence?
I want to forget that.
I actually...
I actually really dislike that.
But it's a Russell thing, where he throws something in at the
beginning of an episode, whether it's Doctor Who or whatever, as a
bit of a misdirect, and you see something then happened 3 quarters
of the way through.
Yeah.
So it's a little bit like the beginning of Army of Ghosts, where
you get Rose on the Pass saying this is the story of how I died.
And then of course, she didn't die.
This one, I think, is really, really kind of overwrought.
Yeah.
Also, it's that thing whenever he does a non-doctor thing, it's
like, I've got to mention the doctor and how amazing he is.
It's like, no I've watched that show.
Yeah, yeah.
It's poochie.
He'll wander into anything.
And like people behave badly in front of him all the time.
I know.
Yeah, it's trying to ask the question, why is the doctor not
here?
Yes.
And the answer to that question is...
He's busy.
He's, no, he's playing Hamlet.
Oh yeah.
The actress, you mean.
But like one of the things that I really like about Planet of the
Dead is that it is a season opener for a season that never ends up
happening.
And the doctor decides at the end of Planet of the Dead, which is
light and fun and like a season opening romp by Russell.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And that's the time when we have the season open as well.
And then the doctor at the end says, no, I'm not going to have a
season.
Like he actually says, I'm not going to do it because, you know
Donna, because of all of the stuff that's been going on.
And so we don't have a season.
And so there's a kind of in universe reason why there's no 2009
season.
I don't think we need it.
I think it's overwrought and we get to see it again.
Yeah, I hate when you see things twice. like and they don't
resolve in a different way.
Yeah, yeah.
Like, it's like, if you saw this at the start and you go, ooh, this
is exciting.
And then you get to it and it's like, yeah, she's, we saw that.
She's just recording it from a different angle.
Like, I want the reveal to be like the rose thing.
It's like, 0 no, she doesn't die.
Like it's actually, it's a different kind of death.
It's like the death of her emotionally and the end of her life in
that universe.
Whereas this is just, yeah, Gwen's just, she actually did say, oh
that shit.
Yeah, and we're just seeing it from a certain perspective for a
moment so that we can mention the doctor.
The doctor right off the bat.
Because it's the finale and it's Friday.
Yeah.
I think so.
I mean, I think it is unfortunate.
I do think it's overwrought.
I don't think it looks very good.
And when they do it later, you get the advantage of, like I
think...
Oh, she's holding the keys.
She holding that little key.
Yeah.
Reese, Reese, like it just drops a tear for a moment.
Like, it's actually quite a good scene.
And I do think that that plot, which we'll get to, with her
rescuing the kids joining forces with Johnny and Rhiannon to
rescue the kids is great. absolute highlight of the episode, I
think.
Yeah, it just feels weird at the start.
Also, I don't know if it's because this was made at the beginning
of HDTV because Euroslin is framing everything like it's still in
43 and it was a giant head and I've got it ridiculously large
television.
So many times in this episode, things are shown on a cassode ray
television with like all the lines and the bits and they're so
blown up that it's like, you're hurting my eyes.
I don't need to see a news reader any closer than they actually
are on television.
I don't want to see up Trinity Wells nostrils.
Can I shout out for a second?
Because that is in this montage at the beginning?
which is kind of getting us to where we are, that the BBC
newsreader, Louise Minchin, I think, absolutely is so good.
She just properly sells it and sounds exactly, well, like
herself.
I mean, there's the most surprising reason why she sounds like a
BBC.
Also that thing where BBC news readers are like...
I'm meant to sound unbiassed, but I have kind of an opinion.
But do you think it's like, if somebody's flicking the channel and
suddenly they flick it on and she's suddenly there saying this
stuff, somebody could go, oh, oh, like, you know, something's
actually happened.
I feel...
I think that the BBC wouldn't allow them to just show it on the
screen.
Yeah, yeah, that has to be.
Yeah, you have to be looking at a TV show.
And so I think all of the cathode ray, you know, the little pixel
elements.
They're all there because they're required.
But, I mean, you could shoot it across the room.
Like, you don't, it's, I mean, it's very Russell to go from TV
show to TV show to the TV show, like flick, flick, flick.
Like I see all the different...
Paul O'Grady and Army of Ghosts and stuff.
Barbara Windsor.
Yeah, that's wonderful.
Awesome.
Just tremendous stuff.
Bring back Barbara.
It's all a bit too serious for that here.
But I do think that the news reader is absolutely superb.
And I do think too, the appeal, like experiencing Prime Minister
Green's appeal, his calling for their faith, you know, he thanks
them for their faith.
All of that stuff is super brutal, isn't it?
Like he's just looking straight into the camera straight on, doing
his best sincerity impression and calling on people to trust him
when we know what the inoculations are all about.
Yeah, from last night's episode.
It's pretty great.
I also love that it's very British.
Like, an American show would never entertain this.
Like it would, that would find a way before the president had to
go up and say, we're taking all the kids.
Yeah, yeah.
They would find a way to be annoying about it.
Whereas because I know I said this last time I was on, because
this has that very John Wyndham, British feel to it, it's just
like, yeah, we'll we'll just sacrifice a whole bunch of people.
Like, we used to send them down to the underground and let the
bombs drop on them. we'll do it.
I mean, I think that what we're kind of talking about is that that
underclass, that perpetual English underclass.
And one thing that emerges here and it said a couple of times is
that actually most people are going to be unaffected by this.
Most wealthy people.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So Johnson says to Alice.
It's all right. you know, Stephen's going to be okay.
They're not taking the nice children.
Yeah.
Well, that should be ringing alarm bells the moment that's...
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, even other people's justifications, like the woman who's
in charge of the troops and stuff, the Black Ops woman.
And she's like, she's like, oh, they'll just be taking those kids
off the street corners.
Yeah, yeah.
No, no, they're going to take other kids.
Well, that's right.
And I mean, that is eventually what happens because, you know
they're not cooperating.
So we, I mean, it's perhaps the least plausible thing about the
episode, I think, that you could get the British government to do
anything.
It's of alacrity.
Yeah, but given that, I think they actually really managed to sell
it quite well on a BBC bunches.
I also think, you know, now with hindsight of having been through
COVID, things can be done really quickly.
Yeah.
And the army can be mobilised in a hurry with things like that.
And you just go, ooh, this actually lands a lot harder than I, it
probably would at the time.
Like it seemed silly and out there and now we're on the other side
of that kind of thing happening in certain countries.
So you think they actually sell their actual taking of the
children with their 20 troops and one bus?
And somehow, and they're one school and they're one council estate
with 15 policemen or whatever, 15 people, I don't agree with you.
And I think yours is trying so hard, but I just sit there going
really?
Like, really?
I don't know.
Maybe it's because I work in TV, like that many children, that is
an expensive shoot.
That is a crazy, expensive shoot.
Like, obviously when there's a big field of them, they're all
comped in.
And that looks crappy.
That looks 6 kids or paste it.
I was looking at that gang, are you kidding?
That's fooling no one.
I know.
It's like that French and Saunders doing the Titanic.
Have you seen that?
Where they're like...
It was directed by Edgar Wright.
And they're like, oh, don't do anything to their extras in the
making of the Titanic and they're like, don't do anything to
extreme because we're going to paste you into various areas.
And next thing you see is like the Titanic and it's them
overacting everything.
Oh, my baby.
I did I did try and spot repeating chills.
Yeah, I know.
Because there's one particular gormless looking child with like
butt teeth in the front and it's like, all right, I'm looking for
him throughout the rest of it.
Oh, look, I'm being a bit harsh.
And I think they are really trying really hard to sell all of
those things, but at times I just kind of went, like, I think what
makes it work is that what we get to see is the sort of thing that
you would never do in classic Doctor Who, which is just having a
character who doesn't have a name who's reacting to something
against dialogue.
And we 1st see it in the Christmas invasion, I think, in Doctor
Who, where remember all of those people are kind of walking along
the street under blood control and you get a woman trying to
attract her family's attention and she has dialogue.
And here you have that woman who, like, there's a couple of people
objecting to the children being taken offside in the buses, and
then there's the kid who escapes and gets caught and then dragged
away.
And then later on on the estate, you see, again, those 15 troops
or whatever.
But there's enough shots of distressed parents having their
children ripped away from them that, like, I don't know that
repeating that in different venues would have helped.
I, like, my crazy justification starts to work, like, because of
my ridiculous theory podcast, where I'm like, oh, there was only a
handful of parents, because everyone else is at work.
I know what you're saying, Adam, because like I like to try and
justify everything too.
But I just kind of really, I'm put, I'm guessing I'm putting a
2026 lens back onto this.
And, you know, and for that time, I know fully well, like with the
budgets and all that sort of thing.
They did it.
It's great.
But at the same time, it's sort of like, could I have double the
amount of people?
What I'd be satisfied with that?
I don't know.
But the acting's great.
The direction's great.
They're really selling it with the parent extras and, you know...
And Euros is like really keeping it as tight as possible because
that's the only way to sell a pretend crowd is to focus on a
handful of people and not see too much background.
Yeah.
And like, I think they have a couple of buses.
Like, I think they have more than just the one bass.
And I think they managed to get shots of the children looking
distressed.
Like, and clearly they're picking the best wongs.
Oh, you know.
The not too overacting ones, but also they're not just sitting
there.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
There are some just sitting there.
There are just there going, okay.
But they do manage to get some shots.
The kids doing the acting get paid extra.
It's really expensive because every child comes with a parent.
So every single child is there with a guardian.
And that is an expensive, expensive day.
And there are lots of those shots all the way through.
I mean, I do think, and I do remember this feeling really
expensive.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And at the time.
Yeah, and I remember as well, just that sort of sense of scale as
being something that Doctor Who hadn't managed to do, even in
things like Aliens of London or Doomsday, where there were giant
things happening.
They were mostly sort of giant computer generated things
happening.
Whereas here, because this is very domestic, because this is like
an alien invasion that intrudes on people's homes, as we've said
before, as Mrs. Frobisher, you know, made the point a couple of
nights ago.
Um, uh, it it just seems bigger.
And I think that's why at the time I thought maybe this is the
best thing of this RTD era.
Oh, including everything.
Yeah.
Maybe.
I mean, there are other things that I like better.
And I like Doctor Who and its tone.
This is a little bit bleak for me, but torchwood can get away with
it.
Yeah, torture is like that.
You know, one thing I found weird at the end of watching it was
how many scenes you go, this absolutely would never happen.
Like, you haven't thought this through, but the acting is so
great.
The writing of the dialogue and the interactions are so incredibly
emotionally powerful that you forgive the giant holes in the
plot.
Yeah.
Which is one of Russell's biggest problems that he writes great
kitchen sync drama and does not really care if you follow the plot
at all.
It's a lot of hand waving science fiction.
It's a lot of, yeah, though, they would absolutely be in a room
together.
Also, at what point?
Did, like, you know, it's the entire world that's meant to be
sending their children, but we've just pretended that everyone
else is doing this same thing that the British...
But we're just focussing on the British one.
It's like, yeah, how are you getting all the other kids?
Yeah.
And again, that's exactly it.
That is kind of fridge logic, isn't it?
Yeah, you aren't really worried about that and you're aware that
this is the story being told and mediated through these characters
and what he does is what a Doctor Who story would never do, which
is he gives children to these major characters.
So Jack has a grandchild.
Frobisher has children.
You've got Yanto's family as well.
We've got kids from each class.
And as I've said before, having children is a very grown up thing
to do.
It makes the show seem more grown up because when you're a kid and
you're watching Doctor Who.
You not thinking about what it's like to have kids.
Well, there's no kids in Doctor Who until really Moffatt starts
dragging them in from all over the place.
Yeah, yeah.
But you remember, like, I remember that scene where Watson called
home in the hand of fear.
It's super cheesy.
And it does say, you know, tell the children I love them or
whatever.
And that kind of hits because that never happens in classic
doctor.
No one has children.
No, no, that's right. children don't exist.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Children are for watching Doctor Who, not for being in.
Not for being in it.
And that's partly because Doctor Who, classic Doctor Who, is about
men at work, having alien invasions and things.
And so the moment you move it into the domestic sphere, I mean
it's why Eccleston's doctor says, I don't do domestic because he
never has, but a few episodes after that, he's trying to push a
toddler out of the way of the TV, you know, in Jackie Tyler's
flat.
And, of course, it ramps up, doesn't it?
We keep cutting back throughout the episode.
There's different phases, so initially we get 60% of people
responding and sending their kids to school.
Also that, oh, there's that gruesome scene where it's like, oh, it
seems to be playing well.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So, 0 my god, it's so politician to go.
Yeah, we're murdering a whole bunch of kids, but it's working.
It's working for my numbers.
Yeah.
And I guess maybe the 1st big proper action sequence apart from
all of that sort of stuff without characters is that scene with
Capaldi and the Prime Minister. where he is the scapegoat.
It's like, well, I'm sorry, but your kids are going.
That's one of the scenes where I was like, this absolutely makes
no sense logically.
But, you know, it's Peter Capaldi and he's brilliant in that scene
and he is, he's such a milk toast character who's like, I want to
rail against this, but I'm a civil servant and I, I don't have the
armaments to do that.
But he really, like that moment where he says they're just girls
so they're just girls.
And because I'm used to Malcolm Tucker and I'm used to him as the
doctor.
Like, why isn't he punching him in the face?
like in thin ice.
Why doesn't he pick up the desk and just sort of smack him over
the head with it?
Great actor.
He's incredible.
Like he's just incredible.
For me, I think it is implausible, but the great thing about it is
just the needless cruelty of it.
It's a very Russell T. David scene where you go, this scene makes
no sense.
It has no place in the show, but it absolutely emotionally
resonates and gives.
It basically gives us the viewer, the feeling of what all these
parents will be feeling when they find out what really happened, if
the whole thing goes through kind of thing.
I don't know if I agree that it makes no sense.
I just feel that he set up this prime minister from the get go to
be the evil cartoon villain.
And so he's going to do that thing.
So in my head, it's justified that he's going to have Frobisher B
the scapegoat for the government and the one that everybody sees
somebody has to do it.
You not going to do it with the nameless person in the next
cubicle.
Do you know what I mean?
Yeah, but also Frobisher is like, who is he?
He's a public servant.
No one would really know who he is.
He's been working at MI5 or whatever it is.
He's been working clandestinely.
So to choose him to be the face of the government.
That's the bit that I go, that makes no sense to me.
It should be, you'd choose the home office.
Like the home secretary?
Yeah, or you'd choose someone, you know, the treasurer, so like
narratively, it makes no sense to choose someone like that.
But logically, it would make more sense.
But narratively, it's so much more satisfying that it is Frobisher
because he's done all these terrible things by covering all this
up, by instituting all this and having people killed in episode
one.
So, of course, on a narrative level, we go, yes, he needs to be
punished for all the things that he's done so far because he's
been such a toady and done everything that needed to be done.
So it feels satisfying on that level, but just in a governmental
publicity level, it feels like a disconnect.
But I absolutely think it narratively works perfectly.
The thing with Russell, and you said it like, you know, has these
plot holes, but I think when you know Russell's on point, is that
you don't think about that.
So I didn't think about that.
He's the one that's going to get done because he's the one that's
carrying this out for the government, right?
So I didn't.
This never occurred to me until this viewing.
So for this time.
So when Russell's on point, you don't think about what you've just
thought about, like, I don't think about that.
Therefore, it's really good.
Like it's when he's not on point, when you've still got dialogue
and you've still got things, but you see all of the plot holes
that annoys me.
Whereas with this, I don't see that because narratively it works.
Yes.
And also the performance is so good.
Oh, unbelievable, both of them.
Yeah, both of them are so great.
It's like they're having a really big fight and neither of them
are doing anything.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, look, he looks up at one and he looks back down.
Even he, as the evil cartoon villain, knows what he is doing is
wrong.
Yeah, he can't make eye contact with him.
It is needlessly cruel.
And like, again, I don't think it's head cannon as such.
I think that this whole negotiation has gone to hell and it's not
Frobish's fault, but Frobish is someone who's nearby.
He was in the room when all that decision making was happening, but
he wasn't at the table.
And look, Nick Briggs already said he didn't have kids, otherwise
he would have been the one.
Yeah that's right.
Oh my god. scene would have been awful.
But it is also that that's kind of set up.
You know, you're in the room, but you're not at the table.
No one at this table is affected, but he sort of sat over there
and I know that's super literal, but I do think that there's
there's something about that.
But this also comes like literally after the unit general guy
talking to the 456 and saying, you know, what are the children
for?
Yeah, and it's, you know, they're hit, you know, for the drugs.
And like, you're just there going, you're just stunned at that and
then you're moving into this.
Yeah.
I remember that moment, the 1st time I watched it, that 1st Friday
or Saturday it would have been here.
And just going, oh, yeah.
And then, yeah, like you say, this, this is the very next scene
and you're like, I'm already down, Russell.
Stop kicking me.
We're already reeling from Yanto's death. exactly.
Yeah, in fact, what's really great about that, I think, is partly
that the 456 is using slang, like the hit.
And it doesn't know Earth slang, because it had to learn off the
record the other day, remember?
But here the hit, the hit, and it's saying it in that crisp posh
voice that it has.
And then it explains it in these simplistic terms.
I do think the dumbest line of the episode is, oh, we're dealing
drugs and it's just like, what?
Like, we're dealing drugs.
Like now you're outraged.
There's drugs involved.
We're going to shovel 10s of 1000000s of children in the direction
of 456.
It looks fine when it might have been a paedophile.
But now that it's a drug thing.
That's much worse.
But I still think, like, I still strongly think that that hit
thing, like, it's impossible to kind of really properly
conceptualise it in that way without thinking of it as paedophilia
that they're violating the bodily autonomy of the kids.
I've said this before, for the sake of pleasure.
And before Colonel Le, do you ask that question?
He says, do you need them to stay alive in a way, like that would
be comprehensible, that they're subsisting on the children, even
that they're eating them?
You know what I mean?
That they need them to stay alive.
That's one thing, but that they're just doing it because it feels
good.
That's much, much more horrific.
Yeah.
It's almost like saying wear paedophiles without actually bringing
any sexual into it.
Yeah.
It's kind of, and I'm guessing this would have been around the
time that all of that talk about what had been going on during the
70s and 80s was bubbling to the surface.
So this is like the government going, we've been fine with this
for a really long time.
Yeah, yeah.
Since the 60s, since the mid 60s.
Yeah.
So the subtext is wild.
It's basically saying, yeah, you know, that guy who was on TV and
the Queen used to hang out with and always was surrounded by
children.
He was a bad person.
Yeah, yeah.
Check out your 2 doctor's DVD special features.
For more information.
Don't we now sort of transition from that meeting to Phobisher
going to Bridget to get the gun?
Yeah.
And then, I know Andy goes in complex Queen, but then it's
literally into Bridget visiting Lois and having that whole talk
about being a good man and cutting to what's happening at his
house. is a very interesting framing sequence.
I think that it's worth talking about the scene between him and
Bridget.
So it's the 2nd episode that Russell's written a mysterious
thing.
So it's the, what is it, the blank sheet in episode one.
And here it's Requisition 31, which is a big gun for me to kill my
family with.
And what's great about it is that they don't say anything to each
other and she knows, like when she talks about him later, There's
no scene, and I don't know whether because there was one and it
was can't.
There's no scene where she receives the news that he's dead.
So the way I...
But she knows from getting requisition 31.
That's right.
She knows what he's going to do with it.
She's known him a long time.
She knows the kind of person here.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I think that's really good.
Like, I think, because we had that hint as well earlier on, maybe
it's episode 2 that he and Bridget had an affair, because of
Bridget's bad reaction to lower saying, pretending she's having an
affair. pretending she's having a, yeah.
Yeah.
And it's not, you know, they don't overdo it.
But when he just kisses her on the cheek and then leaves, that's
how she knows, I think.
I think that's really good.
And I think we probably haven't talked enough about the woman who
plays Bridget.
She's so good.
Well, I mean, she certainly has been in the background just giving
looks a lot of the time and giving her password away.
But here, this whole framing sequence with Lois and how she talks
about John Fropisher being a good man.
And I was listening to your episode 2 where the guys were saying
like a good man in the context of his job, not necessarily a good
man in the context of him outside of that.
I thought it was an interesting take because I just thought, well
I took it both ways.
Like, you know, but just seeing all that, you know, unfold and you
know what's going to happen and then walking up the stairs and
she's still talking and then all those gunshots and at this point
I'm just like, like, I'm just totally shocked and like, this is
just dark stuff, you know?
And 20 minutes and if he'd been 20 minutes later. then, well, it
would have been fine.
You know what I'm saying?
Yeah, yeah.
And ultimately, in terms of the sacrifice with this 456, you've
got him and his family, you've got Jack's family, which is Yanto
and his daughter and his nephew.
You've got the poor people from the last episode who all got the
poison gas, right?
But they're all nameless besides our characters.
There's not...
But we see a lot of body bags.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, they show us a lot of body bag.
That's true.
But I'm just saying in terms of our characters on screen.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The ones we know.
Like around the world, like this is supposed to be a worldwide
event.
It's actually very ultimately contained.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, that's always Doctor Who. like...
It's like, we can't afford to shoot outside. everyone in this
room.
But the impact on that one family.
Yeah. it's awful I can't see how that quite works at logistically
again.
And I think that the way that I'm reading it is we don't get any
audio from the house except for the gunshots because I can't see
what can possibly be going on in that room.
Also, you don't want to, and you don't want to think about it.
You don't want to hear them screaming.
You don't, like, it's bad enough, but there's no way, you know, of
avoiding, like I was trying to picture what's happening in the
room.
And you are invited to picture it because there are the 3 gunshots
which presumably kill the girls and his wife, and then there's a
pause while he has to look at what he's done and then he kills
himself.
And that's really, like, there's no other way of reading that, I
think, and that's really, really quite brutal.
I mean, it's a very hitchcocking thing to shut the door on the
horror that, you know, something bad is about to happen and we're
closing the door.
Yeah, yeah.
And you have to think about it as opposed to showing it, which on
one level is horrific because you're thinking about it.
But on another level is, I think that to shoot that scene would
have been so outrageous.
Oh yeah, you couldn't do it.
No, no.
But the other thing, like, I did a crime writing class once and
the instructor who's a much published Australian author said, you
can never kill the dog and you can never kill the kid.
Yeah.
Otherwise, your readers will never forgive you.
And that is, like, they kill more than one kid in this.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, I know Russell was about to walk out the door.
But he still had, you know, the children's show going.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
He still was, you know, making kids run up and downstairs and away
from monsters in Sarah Jane adventures.
So it's such a really gruesome and it's a very risky thing to do
with your entire franchise, essentially. to kill a bunch of kids
on screen.
And we don't get to see the 2 girls.
No, but we do get to see Stephen.
Yeah.
Yes.
At the end.
That is also horrific.
But as you're saying, it's like absolutely brutal at this point.
And we haven't got to the children being taken away from the
school.
We haven't got to Gwen on the council estate, you know, trying to
rescue all those kids.
So all of this, you're taking all of this emotion and dread into
what is going to happen next.
Like, will they actually escape?
Yeah It's amazing doing it that early.
It is incredible doing it that early in the episode.
Well, I think the other thing is because it's torchwood and not
Doctor Who, and we have seen them fail more than once.
We seen them get to the end of the episode and it's like, we
didn't solve anything.
Everyone died and the alien went away.
Or everyone had weird explosive sex.
So, you know, we've seen the death of the cyberwoman.
We've seen all of the things happen where Torchwood don't
succeed.
And I very much felt when I 1st watched this.
I was like, this is gonna end badly.
Yeah, but this is not like, no one's saving the day.
Captain Jackie's going to fuck up again.
He sold the kids the 1st time.
Is he going to just let this happen and the world is ruined.
Yeah, yeah.
I think, though, because we start with a mention of the doctor
that does place this in the same Doctor Who timeline.
And so we're not going to have the doctor turn up this Christmas
to a world where 10% of the world's children have been taken away
while he was naming a galaxy Alison. you know, like I just think
that that that wasn't possible.
So I do think that it is going to resolve itself.
But of course, the only way that it can resolve itself is in a bad
way, for precisely the reason because what we had, and we talked
about the trolly problem the other week, what we had was this idea
that you sacrifice a small number of people in order to ensure the
safety of a large number of people.
And in 1965.
It was 12 children to save 25000000 people from the Indonesian
flu.
Here, it's one child to save 6700000000 people.
But Jack makes the same decision in each case.
He sacrifices a small number of people to save a big number of
people.
Now, in the parent show, you would never do that, something would
turn up, the doctor would reject that and say, no, I'm going
to...
Yeah, yeah.
In fact, you actually have Yanto in episode 4 saying to Jack that
he should do that, the Jack He knows would stand up and not
tolerate that sacrifice, but Jack didn't do that.
And now Yanto's gone.
There's no one there to say you should stand up.
And you know what would have happened if it was a Doctor Who?
Is the doctor would have channelled that thing through him and
been like, I can be a child.
Yeah. like every generation or whatever.
And then someone would have pushed him out of the way and died.
Yeah, yeah.
Self sacrifice.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Or someone, like, like, um, the annoying American Tech Bro would
quickly... and do it instead of the doctor doing it.
Can I say, I am annoyed that that is it Decker?
Who's the old guy?
Yeah, yeah, Decker.
I am annoyed that he survived last episode.
I mentioned it.
I thought that he would not survive in his little suit.
And I think we said in the last episode or I thought that the
reason that he's there at all, because we do need him in this
final episode, I think.
Yes, to understand because he's been working on it since.
That's right And he is the one that then points Jack to
sacrificing the key.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So we need that not to be Jack's idea.
We need there to be dialogue about it too.
Like, if Jack comes up with the idea, he doesn't want to do it.
Do you know what I mean?
And he won't mention it.
But because Deck is there, he mentions it.
So why is that out loud?
Yeah, everyone's right.
And Bitchface, whatever her name is.
Johnson is not going to do it because she's already said she's
already, they've already tried to humanise her with saying that
he's going to be okay.
But I actually think what's interesting is that even though
they've humanised her, she still thinks that the sacrifice of one
child is fine.
I got the impression in the last episode in this that her kind of
starting to come on board is because they never say it, but she
has kids.
Oh, maybe.
Like, it's A, the reason it's a woman is so that we can have, like
there can be a maternal side to her after all of the brutality
she's enacted on everyone.
And there's just that moment of when she's saying, oh, it'll be
all the kids from the street corners and you're like, you've got
kids.
Yeah, she's got kids at home.
Because, I mean, the other thing about her is that she's kind of
really murderous in the 1st few episodes, but even she isn't on
board and she thinks this is horrifying.
The thing, you know, she's making the same decision essentially
that Lois makes, which is to betray, you know, a commitment that
she's made to protect the state.
But then I do think that she is kind of on board with the
sacrifice of Steve.
Oh, yeah.
Because in a way, like, part of the problem is, I think, and part
of the reason that the relationship between Alice and Jack breaks
down completely and you can't have a scene where they talk to one
another at the end is that it was the right thing to do to kill
Stephen.
If it's a choice.
Do you know what I mean?
The way the Doctor Who would do it, it would be someone volunteers
to do it.
You know, someone volunteers.
But here we've got a child who can't consent to that because they
can't understand it.
It has to be a child.
And it's the same thing.
Do you know the story, the ones who walk away from omelas?
Oh my god, it's the best.
Ursula Kayla Guine.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So this is a story where there's an entire happy fantasy world, a
science fiction world that you're invited to imagine.
And then you're invited to imagine one single child in a prison
cell who is being mistreated, who's being immiserated, who is
starved and mistreated and unloved, and we're made to understand
that the reason that that child's treated in that way, is that it
actually ensures the good fortune and happiness of everyone else
in the world.
Okay.
And they do it in, um, they do that in, in a Star Trek, in
straight true worlds.
Lift us where suffering cannot reach.
The little boy who has to be sacrificed in order to ensure that
his planet is prosperous.
And it's called the ones who walk away from Omelas, the story
because there are people who learn of this and then kind of go
well, now I'm going to go on with my lie.
It's like the space whale.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. where they go, I'm going to choose to forget
that that happened.
Yes, that's right. and live with it.
Or the people who walk away, the people who say I can't be part of
this world.
And the fact of the of the matter is, the reason that that hears
is, of course, because the ease and prosperity that we have been
enjoying ourselves in this wealthy country is predicated on the
poverty and emiseration of other people in the world.
I read it as because it was in the 70s.
And I so I listened to this great podcast once about a girl who
grew up in South Africa and she described it as, because she's a
white girl, that it was a utopia.
You never saw anything on the news about what was really going on
with apartheid.
You never knew that that was happening.
Like you just lived in this glorious place where everything was
amazing.
And yet there's an entire race of people being treated
horrifically just over there. that you can't quite see because the
news doesn't cover it.
But I think it works on, you know, like on so many levels.
Yeah.
Have you ever read, there's a, there was an award-winning story
last year, which was a response by Isabel J.
Kim called, They keep killing the kid in the omelus hall?
No, I have heard of it.
It's really funny And so in some sense, we're outraged by that
murder, and that murder is made worse because it's a kid that he
knows it's his own grandson that he's doing this to.
And of course, he needs to be punished as well.
Just the way that Frobisher needed to be punished.
Jack needs to be punished for what he did to the kids in 1965.
And so he's made to do it again.
And he's made to do it again to his own kid.
It's interesting that they kill off Clem.
And that's one character, had he survived, that previous episode
could have been the one person to actually make self sacrifice or
save it's my time because of everything I've gone through.
Like he was a conduit and and but that's why the 456 kill him
because they recognise that he is a vulnerability of theirs.
Like, I think, I don't know how clearly that stated in the
dialogue and maybe that's just me.
But I thought that that was the thing, that the reason they kill
him because they do ask.
Yeah, because that's like that's how they work it out.
They're like, why did they kill him?
How did they kill him?
And it's like, oh, they killed him because he was a
vulnerability.
And he was an outlier and we can use that against them.
And I do think there's a stroke of genius in getting all of the
kids to scream.
Like, it's not just Stephen doing the thing and bleeding from the
head and all of that sort of horrible stuff, which is really
prolonged at which they make Alice Watch.
Yeah, and it's that shaking thing too.
Yeah, yeah. that they've just learned to do. everybody seems to do
like at that time.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Isn't it like when the master is changing like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's right.
They do use it in the end of time.
Yeah, yeah.
So she she has to watch it.
Like she's forced to watch it.
Jack is forced to watch it. it's really vivid and really brutal
and really kind of explicit.
Are we watching at the same time?
Gwen and Reese and everybody trying to get away from the troops
with the small children.
Yeah, yeah.
And I think that's actually really well shot.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And also, the fact that they go into what looks like an abattoir.
I was about to say.
Yeah, yeah.
It is, it is really, I don't know whether that was a Euroslyn
thing or it was the production, uh, location manager, but it's
just like, ooh, yeah.
A little on the nose, but it's kind of perfect.
I think the incredible thing is that little girl who gets left
behind and then is caught by the troops and is screaming and
stuff.
Like all of that stuff is so incredibly great.
I think also there's a big highlight is Andy taking his police
uniform off and going in and attacking the troops.
I don't want to be part of this system.
Yeah, yeah, it's not just, like, he doesn't go in with his police
thing on.
He rejects the whole police thing.
I think I don't know what happens in Torchwood later on, but I
would like to think that he stops being a policeman at that point
altogether.
I mean, in the audios, he's around forever.
Yeah, of course he is.
It's funny because I kind of thought, well, you know, at the end
of this, only person left in torture it is Gwen, but she's going
but she's going to get Andy and Reese and Johnson and Lois and
they're going to be the new Torchwood team.
Like, you know, in my head cannon.
We said in an earlier episode that Lois is in prison locked up at
the end of this, but she's not because she's going to be released
by Denise.
She's going to be released by Denise.
That's another thing that really distinguishes this from Doctor
Who because in Doctor Who, when anyone is locked up, they spend
the rest of the time trying to get out.
Yeah, yeah.
But here people are locked up and they're locked up.
Yeah.
But before we get to that.
It's the end of the 456.
All that bugged.
Oh, good.
Oh my god, it's so gross.
It's super satisfying though.
I mean, I think if they just beamed out of there, that would have
been nowhere near as fun because we want them punished.
And it is that usual thing.
It's the Santarin experiment thing, which we do again in Horror of
Fang Rock, where you just kill one of the aliens and the rest of
them go, actually, let's, we'll go. pee off.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
But having it explode, and particularly after it's been sort of
spraying diarrhoea on the walls of a thing for a bunch of
episodes.
Like, it's super gross.
It's super visceral, but it is a bit of a punch the M moment.
It is pretty great.
But also, and no one says this, but they have just killed another
child.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
There is a child in there.
Yes of course.
1965.
And that is part of that giant explosion of blood and it's like, oh
wow.
They're killing kids all over the place in this episode.
This is the 1st time that's occurred.
It was a puppet child.
It was a puppet baby with a mask on, but yeah.
But I like to think that when that happens to the 456 in that cell
it's also happening up in the spaceship too. they're getting
affected too, which is why they then decide time to get out of
here.
Or they're just like, oh, they've worked out how to hurt us.
So we, there's no way we can go back now.
I really love the bit at the end where, I mean, obviously, Alice's
reaction is really tragic, all of that sort of stuff, but the
triumph that Gwen and Reese get to experience and little Misha
when Gwen calls her a clever girl, what did you do, you clever
girl?
I just think that's so adorable.
Because Misha is the best child in the show.
And she is so into the screaming.
Like she just opens her mouth so big and wide.
She's doing exactly what our Ross is telling her to do.
She's got that little, you know, frown on her face and stuff.
I just think she's tremendous.
She's the best one.
You've got to track her down for a podcast.
I do.
What's she doing now?
I do question this.
The trip suddenly stop.
And it sort of like, was an order given?
Like, that's, I mean, that's, again, it's Russell.
That's Russell's little plot holes that he doesn't like to deal
with.
But I mean, I think if they can mobilise them in a moment, they
can stop the minimum.
We don't need to see that.
Because once you've dealt with a 456 and then dealing with what we
need to see dealt with next is, of course, the Prime Minister.
And what a what a scene that is.
Oh, yeah.
Because like I didn't put 2 and 2 together when I 1st watched it
that she had the contact lenses.
No.
She is to, now that you watch it.
She's kind of staring like this the whole time.
And of course, she is suspicious of Lois as well.
Because she's clocked at Lois is always trying to look at
someone's mouth.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So in that thing on floor 13.
She's constantly tracking Lois and shooting daggers at Lois.
So there's something very moffity, isn't there about the
reinterpretation of that visit where it actually looks like she's
gone to visit Lois in order to give a speech that can be intercunt
with the death of the Frobisher family.
It's saying look what you've done.
But instead, she's actually gone to Lois and got the instructions
on how to use the contact lenses.
Do you ever watch Matlock?
They do that in every episode.
Or a poker face.
Yes.
There's a bit of information that you're missing that you don't
see.
Yeah, you certainly see part of that. they show you at the end of
the episode.
It's like, oh, that.
Oh, that happened.
I miss that.
But it's a very Moffat thing to do, isn't it?
To reinterpret something that you've already seen.
And that's a great scene.
I do think it's slightly undercut by the fact that we had a
similar threat in episode four.
And what the Prime Minister says here, which is just, oh, you know
we're lucky the Americans were here and they can take the fall. is
nowhere near as bad as, say, what Denise said in the previous
episode when she was being recorded.
So I don't think that works quite as well, but he is so great at
being defeated.
Isn't he that actor?
tremendous.
Oh, yeah, and the fact that Denise is there ready to, you know
take control.
Yeah, yeah.
Awful, horrible Denise.
With the school league tables is now going to be in charge.
I know.
And like, yeah, that league table's speech is one of those really
chilling moments, previous episodes, where she's like, well, what
are they for?
Yeah, it's so great.
But it's all leading to this moment.
Denise's destiny.
Yeah.
No, it literally...
And so there's no happy ending.
Institutionally, no one learns anything.
We are still under the government that was prepared to do this to
the children.
And will continue to do it in a less kind of, you know
metaphorical way.
I mean, it's, you know, it's obviously conservative government.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, but I mean, I think it is.
They've continued to do exactly what they've always done.
Yeah, yeah.
Shove kids up chimneys.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You know, at this point, you know, what what is the happy ending
to this episode?
Yeah, we defeated the four or five, six, but look at the price
that individuals have paid and people have paid.
And the only, I mean, Lois is going to get out of jail.
Yeah.
Gwen Reese, Jack, all the kids on the estate, they survive, but
how happy is it?
It a bit of sweet sort of ending, isn't it?
I mean, at least you get the payoff of one little happy ending
which is Gwen is heavily pregnant at the end.
Yeah.
After having kind of implied to Reese that she might not go
through with it.
And I, you know what?
really hated that about this episode. didn't think that she needed
to imply that at all.
I just didn't like it.
And then she says, 0 no, I would never do that.
And, you know, there's dramatic reasons for it, but I just kind of
thought, did we need that on top of everything else?
I think it was just like, it was a really, you know, we're seeing
what the world is like.
Like she's now looked under the hood of government and seen just
how gruesome it is.
Like, she thought the things coming to earth were bad.
Yeah.
And now she's seen that what is in charge of the earth is also
horrible and it is, I mean, it is a thing that women go through a
lot when they're, when they're pregnant is like, do I want to
raise someone in this world and you're allowed to change your mind
on those kind of things?
And I, yeah, I, it was a cruel thing to do to Reese. in that
moment.
I agree.
But also it's just like a comment on everything that's happened in
the show up to then.
I get it.
I just think the dialogue could have been done in a slightly
different way.
Like, I just thought it was a bit blunt.
And it was really expedient because it's like, oh, we're just in a
car and we've got to get to this place and what can I fill this
time with conversation?
It's like, oh, more bleak shit.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But I mean, I genuinely think that that's the reason that she's
pregnant.
In this story is because that then gives her a stake in the state
of the future that she doesn't have.
And so I think, again, we are almost always going to head to that
scene where she said that.
What annoys me is it's part of a long tradition of women
contemplating having abortions on television only to decide that
they're not going to.
And like I'm glad that she doesn't.
I'm glad we see her pregnant at the end and she does get to have a
baby and a machine gun.
I think in episode one of Torchwood Miracle Day, which is pretty
awesome, not the season, but when with a child.
I would agree with that.
But, like, it just sort of slightly irritates me a bit.
I'm always a little bit relieved that occasionally on television
these days you do actually see someone making a conceded decision
to have an abortion and then they go through with it and they're
not punished for it.
I think it's a little bit...
I feel like it's, I don't know.
It felt like a moment where if the show hadn't resolved the 456
and they had taken all those 1000000s of children with them as
drugs, that she would have actually gone through with terminating
because you would have gone, this world is no good.
And as well.
I mean, the thing is with the 456 is they come back.
Like, the problem with this, one of the big problems with this is
it's not exchanging 10s of 1000000s of children for 1000000000s of
people's safety because that didn't work last time either.
They came back.
They're extorting.
Yeah, that's right.
And Gwen says that, doesn't she?
She says, you know, you should have known.
It's a protection It's a protection racket.
That's precisely what she says.
And so they'll be back.
They have to be defeated.
We don't have compliance, isn't really a proper, a proper
alternative, a proper solution to the problem.
You know, if we live in a world where the 456 come back for more
kids every few years, then absolutely, that's not the world that
you want to bring a child into at all.
And then at the end we get that, you know, that wonderful ending
with Jack teleporting up into the atmosphere like a Doctor Who
Christmas episode where the TARDIS go zap up into the atmosphere
like it never does.
Do you know what I'm saying?
Like it only happens at Christmas and said, yeah, it's very run
away.
When does he appear next in, is it just Miracle Day?
It's not in Doctor Who, is it?
Yeah, yeah, he's in the at the end of time where he goes to the.
Oh, so he's gone to meet Alonso.
Russell Toby.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
It was a little unsatisfying for me, like the end of Greece.
Why are you not flying in the car?
That's awesome.
Shut up.
No, I agree with you.
What is that?
Why is that?
Why is why is that?
Why does he fly off into the sky?
Also, it feels like he's getting, you know, he's all sad and
mournful, but then shoots up in the sky.
It's like, well, that looks like a happy ending.
I actually dislike that ending enormously.
And I think it's because we've seen Gwen crying quite a lot this
episode.
And having her cry that horrible Jack is going away.
Like, it's just too much.
That whole scene is just too overwrought and too overplayed.
And you've got Reese undercutting it a little bit.
And even just having her continually turning around as they go off
together, as her and Reese go off together, she keeps turning
around and looking in the sky after Jack, as if she's kind of
still, like, she can't just settle into now I have my husband and
a child and I'm okay.
He goes back to all the crap back in season.
Yeah exactly.
I thought we'd put behind us.
You know?
Jack is not the man for her.
This is Reese. you know she loves him.
We don't need that.
Like, she could have given stuff, let him go. and not be as
distressed, you know?
And, you know, this is my guy and really pointing that out.
Yeah, and but it's also, this is like Russell thing.
It's like Jack is his Doctor Who, you know, for this show.
And so the companion for one of a better term for whatever Gwen's
role is, is to be constantly pining after the doctor.
And it's just that's the Russell's mode with how things work.
It's the assistant is always obsessed.
Yeah, and it would.
Yeah, it would have been much better, I think, for her to have
been kind of happy to see him go.
Yeah.
Like, or fit her to be philosophical about.
I mean, he's been responsible for the death of pretty much
everyone she met at Torchwood.
He literally says that.
And she still wants to know if he's okay.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
So I think that is a little bit unsatisfying.
Also, like, I feel like he doesn't even get away, you know, he
doesn't even get punished for Ianto dying.
And it's up to Gwen and Andy to go and deliver the news to the
system.
Yeah, yeah.
Oh wow.
That is also really heartbreaking when she goes, oh, he was a
master tailor.
It's like, no, he worked at Debonance.
He didn't know anything about him.
Yeah, no, that was a great moment.
It's really, really good because the master tailor thing.
I think I've said that before, is such cheesy, ludicrous TV
writers backstory.
And so instead we discovered that actually there's a real thing
and he's a loser who broke Yanto's arm that one time, remember?
Or his leg.
I can't remember.
But there is something about him that he's actually a lot less
impressive.
I mean, that seems great just because the woman who plays Rhiannon
is so incredibly good.
Teddy Ricks is so good.
Yeah, I love her.
Just fantastic.
But I mean, that is the case with this season is that every one of
those actors playing any of the sport roles.
All of them are just so impressive.
And of course, even the guys with the big rubber stick that are
banging it on the window to make the spew happen.
They're good too.
But at that mean, it's totally anchored by 8 miles. and Peter
Capaldi and what's the name, Lois?
Oh, Chris Jumbo.
Like, it's totally anchored by all of them.
The saddest thing about this episode is that Kush Jumbo is in a
prison cell for most of it.
And even does some good eye acting through the porthole.
Yeah.
But it's not anchored by Barrowman.
No, he's terrible.
And that's my biggest takeaway rewatching this is how adequate he
is.
He's adequate.
But he's not impressive.
Imagine like Paldi doing the scene where he has to sacrifice his
own grandchild.
Like Capaldi going home with Property 31 is just like you see the
weight.
You see the horror.
You see the planning and it's just, this is the worst day of his
life.
Whereas Barriman's like, I've got a bit of a hangnail.
He does tear up.
He does tear up. stoic.
But, you know, if you pull out your hangnails. pleasant.
Well, that's all the time we have for this week and for this
season.
We'll be back later in the year to consider Terry Nation's
contribution to our favourite television program in 500 year diary
season 5, Turanium Core.
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts
and you can keep up with us on our website, 500yearDiary.com, where
you'll find our social media links as well as links to all of our
other podcasts, including the entirety of flights or entirety
which comprises every episode of our 4 Doctor Who podcasts.
Until next time, remember that if you lead a wicked life during
your time on Earth, you'll be forced to atone for your sins by
going on a date with Russell Tovey.
So be warned.
Thank you very much for listening and good night.
See you soon.
That was 500 year diary, starring Todd Bealby, Nathan Bottomley
and Adam Richard.
The theme was composed by Cameron Lamb.
This episode, What the World Is Like, was recorded on the 28th of
March 2026, and released on the 12th of April.
Thank you all for joining us for season 4 of 500-year diary and
particular thanks to those people who joined us on the sofa of
reasonable comfort.
Melvin Peña, Johnny Spandral, Kevin Bernard, Fiona Tomney, and
Adam Richard.
We'll see you in season five.
But again, back to you saying about Peter Capelli is just seeing
him in this role, but having now seen him in 3 years of Drop 2. how
impressive he is.
Yet again, you know, in something that's completely different to
the doctor.
Have you watched the show with him and Kush Jumbo?
I think it's called criminal record.
Record?
They're both so great.
It is like they're circling each other.
It's on Netflix.
Oh, Apple TV.
Apple TV?
right.
It's like 8 episodes or something or 6 it's not very long and it's
police.
It's a police.
Yeah, detective, all kind of thing, but there's a thing in the
past that Capaldi's character is done and you're never really sure
and there might be some racism and it's all...
Yeah, it's, but you just like, he's so great.
Like, he's this kind of proud character who's a bit downtrodden
who's trying to do the right thing, but is also messed up a lot
and he's so good at having all of that going on.
Whereas Barriman's like, I'm wearing a coat.
Yeah, yeah.
That's it.
And probably a wig.
Oh yeah, that hair is too much.
But you know who I'd love to see back on Telly, and that's Eve
Miles.
Oh, yeah, she's in the moment.
It's on Stan with David Morris, the episode.
Wow.
Yeah.
She's alarmingly blonde in it.
Alarmingly blonde and apparently he's a really complex character.
I've not seen it but I really want to.
And she was great in that, um, was it the 2nd season of
Broadchurch?
Like the only good thing in that 2nd season of Broadchurch.
Oh, God, I don't even think I got to it.
They gave they did give Olivia Coleman a lot of...
It's just like, how can we resolve this mystery?
in a way that gives Olivia Coleman the most opportunities to do
acting.
Oh, she's so great.
She's so good.
That's such a terrible show.
It's awful But it's well cast again.
But here, you know, this is by far the best season of Torchwood.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
It's a proper thing.
And like, I think it's like, I think it's like a season 7 Doctor
Who as well.
You know, one of the things about Doctor Who being like 45 minute
adventures is that you never get to spend time with the regular
cast.
Now we've got this massive regular cast.
We know all of them.
They're all interesting to watch.
They can each anchor a scene.
We have whole scenes with just Alice, you know, and she's
tremendous.
And you never get to do that in Doctor Who.
So it just felt like it felt like a throwback.
It felt like the pertu era.
Yeah, it felt like old school Doctor Who, when you have six half
hour episodes and you got to know these people.
Sure, none of them made it to the final episode.
Horrifying rocks too, on my face.
Everyone died.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Hated Adelaide, but you know.
But yeah, yeah.
Like, I think that's, like, and so I think that's why that's so
good.
And I think the next year, like, um, uh, Miracle Day has an
incredible strong hawk, like a great hook.
And some great actors.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And they kill off all the great females.
Never be a doctor in torture.
Just say that.
The 3rd doctor.
Yeah, Vera.
In that incredible.
That's an incredible.
There are incredible moments in the next season, but it goes to
Helena.
I think I think, again, it's the same, the advantage that this has
over Miracle Day and over war between, I think, is that it's 5
episodes over 5 days.
And so it has that incredible propulsiveness, but just that
Aristotelian unity.
Like it's all about a particular week.
Like a very bad week that everyone's having.
Yeah, you don't have those gaps in time.
No.
But also too, it's not American.
No offence.
But I think that does affect.
Miracle Day.
I mean, we love American genre TV.
And we were watching a stack of it at the time.
And, you know, it meant that we had John DeLancey and our visitor
and Jane Spenson writing episodes and stuff, which was, you know
she writes maybe the best episode, I think.
And so all of that stuff's kind of good.
It was too many.
It was trying to do too long.
Yeah, it was it was before we hit this weird thing where they were
like, oh, maybe we don't need to do 13 episodes of everything.
We don't need to do 10 episodes.
It's meant to be six.
That's fine.
Yeah, but 10 wasn't enough for the kids in space.
No.
Yeah, Starfleet 902 when I was, people been calling it.
I'm still sad about that.
Yeah.