What the World Is Like

Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to 500 year diary. The only Doctor Who podcast that's just thought of an excellent way you can get out of buying Christmas presents for your nieces and nephews this year. I'm Nathan. I'm Adam. And I'm Todd. It's Friday, the 10th of July, 2009. It's been just over 23 hours since the government decided to hand over the horrid people's children to this season's rubbery alien menace. And tonight, again, about 6000000 people have tuned in to watch our heroes heroically saving the day. Let's see how they manage that as we discuss torchwood, children of earth, day five. So, we start this week with Prime Minister Green, giving us a solemn message about what to do with our children. Do we? Pretty much. Doesn't Gwen have some sort of... Oh, yeah, she talks into sequence? I want to forget that. I actually... I actually really dislike that. But it's a Russell thing, where he throws something in at the beginning of an episode, whether it's Doctor Who or whatever, as a bit of a misdirect, and you see something then happened 3 quarters of the way through. Yeah. So it's a little bit like the beginning of Army of Ghosts, where you get Rose on the Pass saying this is the story of how I died. And then of course, she didn't die. This one, I think, is really, really kind of overwrought. Yeah. Also, it's that thing whenever he does a non-doctor thing, it's like, I've got to mention the doctor and how amazing he is. It's like, no I've watched that show. Yeah, yeah. It's poochie. He'll wander into anything. And like people behave badly in front of him all the time. I know. Yeah, it's trying to ask the question, why is the doctor not here? Yes. And the answer to that question is... He's busy. He's, no, he's playing Hamlet. Oh yeah. The actress, you mean. But like one of the things that I really like about Planet of the Dead is that it is a season opener for a season that never ends up happening. And the doctor decides at the end of Planet of the Dead, which is light and fun and like a season opening romp by Russell. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's the time when we have the season open as well. And then the doctor at the end says, no, I'm not going to have a season. Like he actually says, I'm not going to do it because, you know Donna, because of all of the stuff that's been going on. And so we don't have a season. And so there's a kind of in universe reason why there's no 2009 season. I don't think we need it. I think it's overwrought and we get to see it again. Yeah, I hate when you see things twice. like and they don't resolve in a different way. Yeah, yeah. Like, it's like, if you saw this at the start and you go, ooh, this is exciting. And then you get to it and it's like, yeah, she's, we saw that. She's just recording it from a different angle. Like, I want the reveal to be like the rose thing. It's like, 0 no, she doesn't die. Like it's actually, it's a different kind of death. It's like the death of her emotionally and the end of her life in that universe. Whereas this is just, yeah, Gwen's just, she actually did say, oh that shit. Yeah, and we're just seeing it from a certain perspective for a moment so that we can mention the doctor. The doctor right off the bat. Because it's the finale and it's Friday. Yeah. I think so. I mean, I think it is unfortunate. I do think it's overwrought. I don't think it looks very good. And when they do it later, you get the advantage of, like I think... Oh, she's holding the keys. She holding that little key. Yeah. Reese, Reese, like it just drops a tear for a moment. Like, it's actually quite a good scene. And I do think that that plot, which we'll get to, with her rescuing the kids joining forces with Johnny and Rhiannon to rescue the kids is great. absolute highlight of the episode, I think. Yeah, it just feels weird at the start. Also, I don't know if it's because this was made at the beginning of HDTV because Euroslin is framing everything like it's still in 43 and it was a giant head and I've got it ridiculously large television. So many times in this episode, things are shown on a cassode ray television with like all the lines and the bits and they're so blown up that it's like, you're hurting my eyes. I don't need to see a news reader any closer than they actually are on television. I don't want to see up Trinity Wells nostrils. Can I shout out for a second? Because that is in this montage at the beginning? which is kind of getting us to where we are, that the BBC newsreader, Louise Minchin, I think, absolutely is so good. She just properly sells it and sounds exactly, well, like herself. I mean, there's the most surprising reason why she sounds like a BBC. Also that thing where BBC news readers are like... I'm meant to sound unbiassed, but I have kind of an opinion. But do you think it's like, if somebody's flicking the channel and suddenly they flick it on and she's suddenly there saying this stuff, somebody could go, oh, oh, like, you know, something's actually happened. I feel... I think that the BBC wouldn't allow them to just show it on the screen. Yeah, yeah, that has to be. Yeah, you have to be looking at a TV show. And so I think all of the cathode ray, you know, the little pixel elements. They're all there because they're required. But, I mean, you could shoot it across the room. Like, you don't, it's, I mean, it's very Russell to go from TV show to TV show to the TV show, like flick, flick, flick. Like I see all the different... Paul O'Grady and Army of Ghosts and stuff. Barbara Windsor. Yeah, that's wonderful. Awesome. Just tremendous stuff. Bring back Barbara. It's all a bit too serious for that here. But I do think that the news reader is absolutely superb. And I do think too, the appeal, like experiencing Prime Minister Green's appeal, his calling for their faith, you know, he thanks them for their faith. All of that stuff is super brutal, isn't it? Like he's just looking straight into the camera straight on, doing his best sincerity impression and calling on people to trust him when we know what the inoculations are all about. Yeah, from last night's episode. It's pretty great. I also love that it's very British. Like, an American show would never entertain this. Like it would, that would find a way before the president had to go up and say, we're taking all the kids. Yeah, yeah. They would find a way to be annoying about it. Whereas because I know I said this last time I was on, because this has that very John Wyndham, British feel to it, it's just like, yeah, we'll we'll just sacrifice a whole bunch of people. Like, we used to send them down to the underground and let the bombs drop on them. we'll do it. I mean, I think that what we're kind of talking about is that that underclass, that perpetual English underclass. And one thing that emerges here and it said a couple of times is that actually most people are going to be unaffected by this. Most wealthy people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Johnson says to Alice. It's all right. you know, Stephen's going to be okay. They're not taking the nice children. Yeah. Well, that should be ringing alarm bells the moment that's... Yeah, yeah. I mean, even other people's justifications, like the woman who's in charge of the troops and stuff, the Black Ops woman. And she's like, she's like, oh, they'll just be taking those kids off the street corners. Yeah, yeah. No, no, they're going to take other kids. Well, that's right. And I mean, that is eventually what happens because, you know they're not cooperating. So we, I mean, it's perhaps the least plausible thing about the episode, I think, that you could get the British government to do anything. It's of alacrity. Yeah, but given that, I think they actually really managed to sell it quite well on a BBC bunches. I also think, you know, now with hindsight of having been through COVID, things can be done really quickly. Yeah. And the army can be mobilised in a hurry with things like that. And you just go, ooh, this actually lands a lot harder than I, it probably would at the time. Like it seemed silly and out there and now we're on the other side of that kind of thing happening in certain countries. So you think they actually sell their actual taking of the children with their 20 troops and one bus? And somehow, and they're one school and they're one council estate with 15 policemen or whatever, 15 people, I don't agree with you. And I think yours is trying so hard, but I just sit there going really? Like, really? I don't know. Maybe it's because I work in TV, like that many children, that is an expensive shoot. That is a crazy, expensive shoot. Like, obviously when there's a big field of them, they're all comped in. And that looks crappy. That looks 6 kids or paste it. I was looking at that gang, are you kidding? That's fooling no one. I know. It's like that French and Saunders doing the Titanic. Have you seen that? Where they're like... It was directed by Edgar Wright. And they're like, oh, don't do anything to their extras in the making of the Titanic and they're like, don't do anything to extreme because we're going to paste you into various areas. And next thing you see is like the Titanic and it's them overacting everything. Oh, my baby. I did I did try and spot repeating chills. Yeah, I know. Because there's one particular gormless looking child with like butt teeth in the front and it's like, all right, I'm looking for him throughout the rest of it. Oh, look, I'm being a bit harsh. And I think they are really trying really hard to sell all of those things, but at times I just kind of went, like, I think what makes it work is that what we get to see is the sort of thing that you would never do in classic Doctor Who, which is just having a character who doesn't have a name who's reacting to something against dialogue. And we 1st see it in the Christmas invasion, I think, in Doctor Who, where remember all of those people are kind of walking along the street under blood control and you get a woman trying to attract her family's attention and she has dialogue. And here you have that woman who, like, there's a couple of people objecting to the children being taken offside in the buses, and then there's the kid who escapes and gets caught and then dragged away. And then later on on the estate, you see, again, those 15 troops or whatever. But there's enough shots of distressed parents having their children ripped away from them that, like, I don't know that repeating that in different venues would have helped. I, like, my crazy justification starts to work, like, because of my ridiculous theory podcast, where I'm like, oh, there was only a handful of parents, because everyone else is at work. I know what you're saying, Adam, because like I like to try and justify everything too. But I just kind of really, I'm put, I'm guessing I'm putting a 2026 lens back onto this. And, you know, and for that time, I know fully well, like with the budgets and all that sort of thing. They did it. It's great. But at the same time, it's sort of like, could I have double the amount of people? What I'd be satisfied with that? I don't know. But the acting's great. The direction's great. They're really selling it with the parent extras and, you know... And Euros is like really keeping it as tight as possible because that's the only way to sell a pretend crowd is to focus on a handful of people and not see too much background. Yeah. And like, I think they have a couple of buses. Like, I think they have more than just the one bass. And I think they managed to get shots of the children looking distressed. Like, and clearly they're picking the best wongs. Oh, you know. The not too overacting ones, but also they're not just sitting there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There are some just sitting there. There are just there going, okay. But they do manage to get some shots. The kids doing the acting get paid extra. It's really expensive because every child comes with a parent. So every single child is there with a guardian. And that is an expensive, expensive day. And there are lots of those shots all the way through. I mean, I do think, and I do remember this feeling really expensive. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And at the time. Yeah, and I remember as well, just that sort of sense of scale as being something that Doctor Who hadn't managed to do, even in things like Aliens of London or Doomsday, where there were giant things happening. They were mostly sort of giant computer generated things happening. Whereas here, because this is very domestic, because this is like an alien invasion that intrudes on people's homes, as we've said before, as Mrs. Frobisher, you know, made the point a couple of nights ago. Um, uh, it it just seems bigger. And I think that's why at the time I thought maybe this is the best thing of this RTD era. Oh, including everything. Yeah. Maybe. Maybe. I mean, there are other things that I like better. And I like Doctor Who and its tone. This is a little bit bleak for me, but torchwood can get away with it. Yeah, torture is like that. You know, one thing I found weird at the end of watching it was how many scenes you go, this absolutely would never happen. Like, you haven't thought this through, but the acting is so great. The writing of the dialogue and the interactions are so incredibly emotionally powerful that you forgive the giant holes in the plot. Yeah. Which is one of Russell's biggest problems that he writes great kitchen sync drama and does not really care if you follow the plot at all. It's a lot of hand waving science fiction. It's a lot of, yeah, though, they would absolutely be in a room together. Also, at what point? Did, like, you know, it's the entire world that's meant to be sending their children, but we've just pretended that everyone else is doing this same thing that the British... But we're just focussing on the British one. It's like, yeah, how are you getting all the other kids? Yeah. Yeah. And again, that's exactly it. That is kind of fridge logic, isn't it? Yeah, you aren't really worried about that and you're aware that this is the story being told and mediated through these characters and what he does is what a Doctor Who story would never do, which is he gives children to these major characters. So Jack has a grandchild. Frobisher has children. You've got Yanto's family as well. We've got kids from each class. And as I've said before, having children is a very grown up thing to do. It makes the show seem more grown up because when you're a kid and you're watching Doctor Who. You not thinking about what it's like to have kids. Well, there's no kids in Doctor Who until really Moffatt starts dragging them in from all over the place. Yeah, yeah. But you remember, like, I remember that scene where Watson called home in the hand of fear. It's super cheesy. And it does say, you know, tell the children I love them or whatever. And that kind of hits because that never happens in classic doctor. No one has children. No, no, that's right. children don't exist. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Children are for watching Doctor Who, not for being in. Not for being in it. And that's partly because Doctor Who, classic Doctor Who, is about men at work, having alien invasions and things. And so the moment you move it into the domestic sphere, I mean it's why Eccleston's doctor says, I don't do domestic because he never has, but a few episodes after that, he's trying to push a toddler out of the way of the TV, you know, in Jackie Tyler's flat. And, of course, it ramps up, doesn't it? We keep cutting back throughout the episode. There's different phases, so initially we get 60% of people responding and sending their kids to school. Also that, oh, there's that gruesome scene where it's like, oh, it seems to be playing well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, 0 my god, it's so politician to go. Yeah, we're murdering a whole bunch of kids, but it's working. It's working for my numbers. Yeah. And I guess maybe the 1st big proper action sequence apart from all of that sort of stuff without characters is that scene with Capaldi and the Prime Minister. where he is the scapegoat. It's like, well, I'm sorry, but your kids are going. That's one of the scenes where I was like, this absolutely makes no sense logically. But, you know, it's Peter Capaldi and he's brilliant in that scene and he is, he's such a milk toast character who's like, I want to rail against this, but I'm a civil servant and I, I don't have the armaments to do that. But he really, like that moment where he says they're just girls so they're just girls. And because I'm used to Malcolm Tucker and I'm used to him as the doctor. Like, why isn't he punching him in the face? like in thin ice. Why doesn't he pick up the desk and just sort of smack him over the head with it? Great actor. He's incredible. Like he's just incredible. For me, I think it is implausible, but the great thing about it is just the needless cruelty of it. It's a very Russell T. David scene where you go, this scene makes no sense. It has no place in the show, but it absolutely emotionally resonates and gives. It basically gives us the viewer, the feeling of what all these parents will be feeling when they find out what really happened, if the whole thing goes through kind of thing. I don't know if I agree that it makes no sense. I just feel that he set up this prime minister from the get go to be the evil cartoon villain. And so he's going to do that thing. So in my head, it's justified that he's going to have Frobisher B the scapegoat for the government and the one that everybody sees somebody has to do it. You not going to do it with the nameless person in the next cubicle. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, but also Frobisher is like, who is he? He's a public servant. No one would really know who he is. He's been working at MI5 or whatever it is. He's been working clandestinely. So to choose him to be the face of the government. That's the bit that I go, that makes no sense to me. It should be, you'd choose the home office. Like the home secretary? Yeah, or you'd choose someone, you know, the treasurer, so like narratively, it makes no sense to choose someone like that. But logically, it would make more sense. But narratively, it's so much more satisfying that it is Frobisher because he's done all these terrible things by covering all this up, by instituting all this and having people killed in episode one. So, of course, on a narrative level, we go, yes, he needs to be punished for all the things that he's done so far because he's been such a toady and done everything that needed to be done. So it feels satisfying on that level, but just in a governmental publicity level, it feels like a disconnect. But I absolutely think it narratively works perfectly. The thing with Russell, and you said it like, you know, has these plot holes, but I think when you know Russell's on point, is that you don't think about that. So I didn't think about that. He's the one that's going to get done because he's the one that's carrying this out for the government, right? So I didn't. This never occurred to me until this viewing. So for this time. So when Russell's on point, you don't think about what you've just thought about, like, I don't think about that. Therefore, it's really good. Like it's when he's not on point, when you've still got dialogue and you've still got things, but you see all of the plot holes that annoys me. Whereas with this, I don't see that because narratively it works. Yes. And also the performance is so good. Oh, unbelievable, both of them. Yeah, both of them are so great. It's like they're having a really big fight and neither of them are doing anything. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, look, he looks up at one and he looks back down. Even he, as the evil cartoon villain, knows what he is doing is wrong. Yeah, he can't make eye contact with him. It is needlessly cruel. And like, again, I don't think it's head cannon as such. I think that this whole negotiation has gone to hell and it's not Frobish's fault, but Frobish is someone who's nearby. He was in the room when all that decision making was happening, but he wasn't at the table. And look, Nick Briggs already said he didn't have kids, otherwise he would have been the one. Yeah that's right. Oh my god. scene would have been awful. But it is also that that's kind of set up. You know, you're in the room, but you're not at the table. No one at this table is affected, but he sort of sat over there and I know that's super literal, but I do think that there's there's something about that. But this also comes like literally after the unit general guy talking to the 456 and saying, you know, what are the children for? Yeah, and it's, you know, they're hit, you know, for the drugs. And like, you're just there going, you're just stunned at that and then you're moving into this. Yeah. I remember that moment, the 1st time I watched it, that 1st Friday or Saturday it would have been here. And just going, oh, yeah. And then, yeah, like you say, this, this is the very next scene and you're like, I'm already down, Russell. Stop kicking me. We're already reeling from Yanto's death. exactly. Yeah, in fact, what's really great about that, I think, is partly that the 456 is using slang, like the hit. And it doesn't know Earth slang, because it had to learn off the record the other day, remember? But here the hit, the hit, and it's saying it in that crisp posh voice that it has. And then it explains it in these simplistic terms. I do think the dumbest line of the episode is, oh, we're dealing drugs and it's just like, what? Like, we're dealing drugs. Like now you're outraged. There's drugs involved. We're going to shovel 10s of 1000000s of children in the direction of 456. It looks fine when it might have been a paedophile. But now that it's a drug thing. That's much worse. But I still think, like, I still strongly think that that hit thing, like, it's impossible to kind of really properly conceptualise it in that way without thinking of it as paedophilia that they're violating the bodily autonomy of the kids. I've said this before, for the sake of pleasure. And before Colonel Le, do you ask that question? He says, do you need them to stay alive in a way, like that would be comprehensible, that they're subsisting on the children, even that they're eating them? You know what I mean? That they need them to stay alive. That's one thing, but that they're just doing it because it feels good. That's much, much more horrific. Yeah. It's almost like saying wear paedophiles without actually bringing any sexual into it. Yeah. It's kind of, and I'm guessing this would have been around the time that all of that talk about what had been going on during the 70s and 80s was bubbling to the surface. So this is like the government going, we've been fine with this for a really long time. Yeah, yeah. Since the 60s, since the mid 60s. Yeah. So the subtext is wild. It's basically saying, yeah, you know, that guy who was on TV and the Queen used to hang out with and always was surrounded by children. He was a bad person. Yeah, yeah. Check out your 2 doctor's DVD special features. For more information. Don't we now sort of transition from that meeting to Phobisher going to Bridget to get the gun? Yeah. And then, I know Andy goes in complex Queen, but then it's literally into Bridget visiting Lois and having that whole talk about being a good man and cutting to what's happening at his house. is a very interesting framing sequence. I think that it's worth talking about the scene between him and Bridget. So it's the 2nd episode that Russell's written a mysterious thing. So it's the, what is it, the blank sheet in episode one. And here it's Requisition 31, which is a big gun for me to kill my family with. And what's great about it is that they don't say anything to each other and she knows, like when she talks about him later, There's no scene, and I don't know whether because there was one and it was can't. There's no scene where she receives the news that he's dead. So the way I... But she knows from getting requisition 31. That's right. She knows what he's going to do with it. She's known him a long time. She knows the kind of person here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that's really good. Like, I think, because we had that hint as well earlier on, maybe it's episode 2 that he and Bridget had an affair, because of Bridget's bad reaction to lower saying, pretending she's having an affair. pretending she's having a, yeah. Yeah. And it's not, you know, they don't overdo it. But when he just kisses her on the cheek and then leaves, that's how she knows, I think. I think that's really good. And I think we probably haven't talked enough about the woman who plays Bridget. She's so good. Well, I mean, she certainly has been in the background just giving looks a lot of the time and giving her password away. But here, this whole framing sequence with Lois and how she talks about John Fropisher being a good man. And I was listening to your episode 2 where the guys were saying like a good man in the context of his job, not necessarily a good man in the context of him outside of that. I thought it was an interesting take because I just thought, well I took it both ways. Like, you know, but just seeing all that, you know, unfold and you know what's going to happen and then walking up the stairs and she's still talking and then all those gunshots and at this point I'm just like, like, I'm just totally shocked and like, this is just dark stuff, you know? And 20 minutes and if he'd been 20 minutes later. then, well, it would have been fine. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah. And ultimately, in terms of the sacrifice with this 456, you've got him and his family, you've got Jack's family, which is Yanto and his daughter and his nephew. You've got the poor people from the last episode who all got the poison gas, right? But they're all nameless besides our characters. There's not... But we see a lot of body bags. Yeah, yeah. Well, they show us a lot of body bag. That's true. But I'm just saying in terms of our characters on screen. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The ones we know. Like around the world, like this is supposed to be a worldwide event. It's actually very ultimately contained. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's always Doctor Who. like... It's like, we can't afford to shoot outside. everyone in this room. But the impact on that one family. Yeah. it's awful I can't see how that quite works at logistically again. And I think that the way that I'm reading it is we don't get any audio from the house except for the gunshots because I can't see what can possibly be going on in that room. Also, you don't want to, and you don't want to think about it. You don't want to hear them screaming. You don't, like, it's bad enough, but there's no way, you know, of avoiding, like I was trying to picture what's happening in the room. And you are invited to picture it because there are the 3 gunshots which presumably kill the girls and his wife, and then there's a pause while he has to look at what he's done and then he kills himself. And that's really, like, there's no other way of reading that, I think, and that's really, really quite brutal. I mean, it's a very hitchcocking thing to shut the door on the horror that, you know, something bad is about to happen and we're closing the door. Yeah, yeah. And you have to think about it as opposed to showing it, which on one level is horrific because you're thinking about it. But on another level is, I think that to shoot that scene would have been so outrageous. Oh yeah, you couldn't do it. No, no. But the other thing, like, I did a crime writing class once and the instructor who's a much published Australian author said, you can never kill the dog and you can never kill the kid. Yeah. Otherwise, your readers will never forgive you. And that is, like, they kill more than one kid in this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I know Russell was about to walk out the door. But he still had, you know, the children's show going. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He still was, you know, making kids run up and downstairs and away from monsters in Sarah Jane adventures. So it's such a really gruesome and it's a very risky thing to do with your entire franchise, essentially. to kill a bunch of kids on screen. And we don't get to see the 2 girls. No, but we do get to see Stephen. Yeah. Yes. At the end. That is also horrific. But as you're saying, it's like absolutely brutal at this point. And we haven't got to the children being taken away from the school. We haven't got to Gwen on the council estate, you know, trying to rescue all those kids. So all of this, you're taking all of this emotion and dread into what is going to happen next. Like, will they actually escape? Yeah It's amazing doing it that early. It is incredible doing it that early in the episode. Well, I think the other thing is because it's torchwood and not Doctor Who, and we have seen them fail more than once. We seen them get to the end of the episode and it's like, we didn't solve anything. Everyone died and the alien went away. Or everyone had weird explosive sex. So, you know, we've seen the death of the cyberwoman. We've seen all of the things happen where Torchwood don't succeed. And I very much felt when I 1st watched this. I was like, this is gonna end badly. Yeah, but this is not like, no one's saving the day. Captain Jackie's going to fuck up again. He sold the kids the 1st time. Is he going to just let this happen and the world is ruined. Yeah, yeah. I think, though, because we start with a mention of the doctor that does place this in the same Doctor Who timeline. And so we're not going to have the doctor turn up this Christmas to a world where 10% of the world's children have been taken away while he was naming a galaxy Alison. you know, like I just think that that that wasn't possible. So I do think that it is going to resolve itself. But of course, the only way that it can resolve itself is in a bad way, for precisely the reason because what we had, and we talked about the trolly problem the other week, what we had was this idea that you sacrifice a small number of people in order to ensure the safety of a large number of people. And in 1965. It was 12 children to save 25000000 people from the Indonesian flu. Here, it's one child to save 6700000000 people. But Jack makes the same decision in each case. He sacrifices a small number of people to save a big number of people. Now, in the parent show, you would never do that, something would turn up, the doctor would reject that and say, no, I'm going to... Yeah, yeah. In fact, you actually have Yanto in episode 4 saying to Jack that he should do that, the Jack He knows would stand up and not tolerate that sacrifice, but Jack didn't do that. And now Yanto's gone. There's no one there to say you should stand up. And you know what would have happened if it was a Doctor Who? Is the doctor would have channelled that thing through him and been like, I can be a child. Yeah. like every generation or whatever. And then someone would have pushed him out of the way and died. Yeah, yeah. Self sacrifice. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Or someone, like, like, um, the annoying American Tech Bro would quickly... and do it instead of the doctor doing it. Can I say, I am annoyed that that is it Decker? Who's the old guy? Yeah, yeah, Decker. I am annoyed that he survived last episode. I mentioned it. I thought that he would not survive in his little suit. And I think we said in the last episode or I thought that the reason that he's there at all, because we do need him in this final episode, I think. Yes, to understand because he's been working on it since. That's right And he is the one that then points Jack to sacrificing the key. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we need that not to be Jack's idea. We need there to be dialogue about it too. Like, if Jack comes up with the idea, he doesn't want to do it. Do you know what I mean? And he won't mention it. But because Deck is there, he mentions it. So why is that out loud? Yeah, everyone's right. And Bitchface, whatever her name is. Johnson is not going to do it because she's already said she's already, they've already tried to humanise her with saying that he's going to be okay. But I actually think what's interesting is that even though they've humanised her, she still thinks that the sacrifice of one child is fine. I got the impression in the last episode in this that her kind of starting to come on board is because they never say it, but she has kids. Oh, maybe. Like, it's A, the reason it's a woman is so that we can have, like there can be a maternal side to her after all of the brutality she's enacted on everyone. And there's just that moment of when she's saying, oh, it'll be all the kids from the street corners and you're like, you've got kids. Yeah, she's got kids at home. Because, I mean, the other thing about her is that she's kind of really murderous in the 1st few episodes, but even she isn't on board and she thinks this is horrifying. The thing, you know, she's making the same decision essentially that Lois makes, which is to betray, you know, a commitment that she's made to protect the state. But then I do think that she is kind of on board with the sacrifice of Steve. Oh, yeah. Because in a way, like, part of the problem is, I think, and part of the reason that the relationship between Alice and Jack breaks down completely and you can't have a scene where they talk to one another at the end is that it was the right thing to do to kill Stephen. If it's a choice. Do you know what I mean? The way the Doctor Who would do it, it would be someone volunteers to do it. You know, someone volunteers. But here we've got a child who can't consent to that because they can't understand it. It has to be a child. And it's the same thing. Do you know the story, the ones who walk away from omelas? Oh my god, it's the best. Ursula Kayla Guine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So this is a story where there's an entire happy fantasy world, a science fiction world that you're invited to imagine. And then you're invited to imagine one single child in a prison cell who is being mistreated, who's being immiserated, who is starved and mistreated and unloved, and we're made to understand that the reason that that child's treated in that way, is that it actually ensures the good fortune and happiness of everyone else in the world. Okay. And they do it in, um, they do that in, in a Star Trek, in straight true worlds. Lift us where suffering cannot reach. The little boy who has to be sacrificed in order to ensure that his planet is prosperous. And it's called the ones who walk away from Omelas, the story because there are people who learn of this and then kind of go well, now I'm going to go on with my lie. It's like the space whale. Yeah, yeah, yeah. where they go, I'm going to choose to forget that that happened. Yes, that's right. and live with it. Or the people who walk away, the people who say I can't be part of this world. And the fact of the of the matter is, the reason that that hears is, of course, because the ease and prosperity that we have been enjoying ourselves in this wealthy country is predicated on the poverty and emiseration of other people in the world. I read it as because it was in the 70s. And I so I listened to this great podcast once about a girl who grew up in South Africa and she described it as, because she's a white girl, that it was a utopia. You never saw anything on the news about what was really going on with apartheid. You never knew that that was happening. Like you just lived in this glorious place where everything was amazing. And yet there's an entire race of people being treated horrifically just over there. that you can't quite see because the news doesn't cover it. But I think it works on, you know, like on so many levels. Yeah. Have you ever read, there's a, there was an award-winning story last year, which was a response by Isabel J. Kim called, They keep killing the kid in the omelus hall? No, I have heard of it. It's really funny And so in some sense, we're outraged by that murder, and that murder is made worse because it's a kid that he knows it's his own grandson that he's doing this to. And of course, he needs to be punished as well. Just the way that Frobisher needed to be punished. Jack needs to be punished for what he did to the kids in 1965. And so he's made to do it again. And he's made to do it again to his own kid. It's interesting that they kill off Clem. And that's one character, had he survived, that previous episode could have been the one person to actually make self sacrifice or save it's my time because of everything I've gone through. Like he was a conduit and and but that's why the 456 kill him because they recognise that he is a vulnerability of theirs. Like, I think, I don't know how clearly that stated in the dialogue and maybe that's just me. But I thought that that was the thing, that the reason they kill him because they do ask. Yeah, because that's like that's how they work it out. They're like, why did they kill him? How did they kill him? And it's like, oh, they killed him because he was a vulnerability. And he was an outlier and we can use that against them. And I do think there's a stroke of genius in getting all of the kids to scream. Like, it's not just Stephen doing the thing and bleeding from the head and all of that sort of horrible stuff, which is really prolonged at which they make Alice Watch. Yeah, and it's that shaking thing too. Yeah, yeah. that they've just learned to do. everybody seems to do like at that time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Isn't it like when the master is changing like, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right. That's right. They do use it in the end of time. Yeah, yeah. So she she has to watch it. Like she's forced to watch it. Jack is forced to watch it. it's really vivid and really brutal and really kind of explicit. Are we watching at the same time? Gwen and Reese and everybody trying to get away from the troops with the small children. Yeah, yeah. And I think that's actually really well shot. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And also, the fact that they go into what looks like an abattoir. I was about to say. Yeah, yeah. It is, it is really, I don't know whether that was a Euroslyn thing or it was the production, uh, location manager, but it's just like, ooh, yeah. A little on the nose, but it's kind of perfect. I think the incredible thing is that little girl who gets left behind and then is caught by the troops and is screaming and stuff. Like all of that stuff is so incredibly great. I think also there's a big highlight is Andy taking his police uniform off and going in and attacking the troops. I don't want to be part of this system. Yeah, yeah, it's not just, like, he doesn't go in with his police thing on. He rejects the whole police thing. I think I don't know what happens in Torchwood later on, but I would like to think that he stops being a policeman at that point altogether. I mean, in the audios, he's around forever. Yeah, of course he is. It's funny because I kind of thought, well, you know, at the end of this, only person left in torture it is Gwen, but she's going but she's going to get Andy and Reese and Johnson and Lois and they're going to be the new Torchwood team. Like, you know, in my head cannon. We said in an earlier episode that Lois is in prison locked up at the end of this, but she's not because she's going to be released by Denise. She's going to be released by Denise. That's another thing that really distinguishes this from Doctor Who because in Doctor Who, when anyone is locked up, they spend the rest of the time trying to get out. Yeah, yeah. But here people are locked up and they're locked up. Yeah. But before we get to that. It's the end of the 456. All that bugged. Oh, good. Oh my god, it's so gross. It's super satisfying though. I mean, I think if they just beamed out of there, that would have been nowhere near as fun because we want them punished. And it is that usual thing. It's the Santarin experiment thing, which we do again in Horror of Fang Rock, where you just kill one of the aliens and the rest of them go, actually, let's, we'll go. pee off. Yeah, yeah, exactly. But having it explode, and particularly after it's been sort of spraying diarrhoea on the walls of a thing for a bunch of episodes. Like, it's super gross. It's super visceral, but it is a bit of a punch the M moment. It is pretty great. But also, and no one says this, but they have just killed another child. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There is a child in there. Yes of course. 1965. And that is part of that giant explosion of blood and it's like, oh wow. They're killing kids all over the place in this episode. This is the 1st time that's occurred. It was a puppet child. It was a puppet baby with a mask on, but yeah. But I like to think that when that happens to the 456 in that cell it's also happening up in the spaceship too. they're getting affected too, which is why they then decide time to get out of here. Or they're just like, oh, they've worked out how to hurt us. So we, there's no way we can go back now. I really love the bit at the end where, I mean, obviously, Alice's reaction is really tragic, all of that sort of stuff, but the triumph that Gwen and Reese get to experience and little Misha when Gwen calls her a clever girl, what did you do, you clever girl? I just think that's so adorable. Because Misha is the best child in the show. And she is so into the screaming. Like she just opens her mouth so big and wide. She's doing exactly what our Ross is telling her to do. She's got that little, you know, frown on her face and stuff. I just think she's tremendous. She's the best one. You've got to track her down for a podcast. I do. What's she doing now? I do question this. The trip suddenly stop. And it sort of like, was an order given? Like, that's, I mean, that's, again, it's Russell. That's Russell's little plot holes that he doesn't like to deal with. But I mean, I think if they can mobilise them in a moment, they can stop the minimum. We don't need to see that. Because once you've dealt with a 456 and then dealing with what we need to see dealt with next is, of course, the Prime Minister. And what a what a scene that is. Oh, yeah. Because like I didn't put 2 and 2 together when I 1st watched it that she had the contact lenses. No. She is to, now that you watch it. She's kind of staring like this the whole time. And of course, she is suspicious of Lois as well. Because she's clocked at Lois is always trying to look at someone's mouth. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So in that thing on floor 13. She's constantly tracking Lois and shooting daggers at Lois. So there's something very moffity, isn't there about the reinterpretation of that visit where it actually looks like she's gone to visit Lois in order to give a speech that can be intercunt with the death of the Frobisher family. It's saying look what you've done. But instead, she's actually gone to Lois and got the instructions on how to use the contact lenses. Do you ever watch Matlock? They do that in every episode. Or a poker face. Yes. There's a bit of information that you're missing that you don't see. Yeah, you certainly see part of that. they show you at the end of the episode. It's like, oh, that. Oh, that happened. I miss that. But it's a very Moffat thing to do, isn't it? To reinterpret something that you've already seen. And that's a great scene. I do think it's slightly undercut by the fact that we had a similar threat in episode four. And what the Prime Minister says here, which is just, oh, you know we're lucky the Americans were here and they can take the fall. is nowhere near as bad as, say, what Denise said in the previous episode when she was being recorded. So I don't think that works quite as well, but he is so great at being defeated. Isn't he that actor? tremendous. Oh, yeah, and the fact that Denise is there ready to, you know take control. Yeah, yeah. Awful, horrible Denise. With the school league tables is now going to be in charge. I know. And like, yeah, that league table's speech is one of those really chilling moments, previous episodes, where she's like, well, what are they for? Yeah, it's so great. But it's all leading to this moment. Denise's destiny. Yeah. No, it literally... And so there's no happy ending. Institutionally, no one learns anything. We are still under the government that was prepared to do this to the children. And will continue to do it in a less kind of, you know metaphorical way. I mean, it's, you know, it's obviously conservative government. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, but I mean, I think it is. They've continued to do exactly what they've always done. Yeah, yeah. Shove kids up chimneys. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, at this point, you know, what what is the happy ending to this episode? Yeah, we defeated the four or five, six, but look at the price that individuals have paid and people have paid. And the only, I mean, Lois is going to get out of jail. Yeah. Gwen Reese, Jack, all the kids on the estate, they survive, but how happy is it? It a bit of sweet sort of ending, isn't it? I mean, at least you get the payoff of one little happy ending which is Gwen is heavily pregnant at the end. Yeah. After having kind of implied to Reese that she might not go through with it. And I, you know what? really hated that about this episode. didn't think that she needed to imply that at all. I just didn't like it. And then she says, 0 no, I would never do that. And, you know, there's dramatic reasons for it, but I just kind of thought, did we need that on top of everything else? I think it was just like, it was a really, you know, we're seeing what the world is like. Like she's now looked under the hood of government and seen just how gruesome it is. Like, she thought the things coming to earth were bad. Yeah. And now she's seen that what is in charge of the earth is also horrible and it is, I mean, it is a thing that women go through a lot when they're, when they're pregnant is like, do I want to raise someone in this world and you're allowed to change your mind on those kind of things? And I, yeah, I, it was a cruel thing to do to Reese. in that moment. I agree. But also it's just like a comment on everything that's happened in the show up to then. I get it. I just think the dialogue could have been done in a slightly different way. Like, I just thought it was a bit blunt. And it was really expedient because it's like, oh, we're just in a car and we've got to get to this place and what can I fill this time with conversation? It's like, oh, more bleak shit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I mean, I genuinely think that that's the reason that she's pregnant. In this story is because that then gives her a stake in the state of the future that she doesn't have. And so I think, again, we are almost always going to head to that scene where she said that. What annoys me is it's part of a long tradition of women contemplating having abortions on television only to decide that they're not going to. And like I'm glad that she doesn't. I'm glad we see her pregnant at the end and she does get to have a baby and a machine gun. I think in episode one of Torchwood Miracle Day, which is pretty awesome, not the season, but when with a child. I would agree with that. But, like, it just sort of slightly irritates me a bit. I'm always a little bit relieved that occasionally on television these days you do actually see someone making a conceded decision to have an abortion and then they go through with it and they're not punished for it. I think it's a little bit... I feel like it's, I don't know. It felt like a moment where if the show hadn't resolved the 456 and they had taken all those 1000000s of children with them as drugs, that she would have actually gone through with terminating because you would have gone, this world is no good. And as well. I mean, the thing is with the 456 is they come back. Like, the problem with this, one of the big problems with this is it's not exchanging 10s of 1000000s of children for 1000000000s of people's safety because that didn't work last time either. They came back. They're extorting. Yeah, that's right. And Gwen says that, doesn't she? She says, you know, you should have known. It's a protection It's a protection racket. That's precisely what she says. And so they'll be back. They have to be defeated. We don't have compliance, isn't really a proper, a proper alternative, a proper solution to the problem. You know, if we live in a world where the 456 come back for more kids every few years, then absolutely, that's not the world that you want to bring a child into at all. And then at the end we get that, you know, that wonderful ending with Jack teleporting up into the atmosphere like a Doctor Who Christmas episode where the TARDIS go zap up into the atmosphere like it never does. Do you know what I'm saying? Like it only happens at Christmas and said, yeah, it's very run away. When does he appear next in, is it just Miracle Day? It's not in Doctor Who, is it? Yeah, yeah, he's in the at the end of time where he goes to the. Oh, so he's gone to meet Alonso. Russell Toby. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It was a little unsatisfying for me, like the end of Greece. Why are you not flying in the car? That's awesome. Shut up. No, I agree with you. What is that? Why is that? Why is why is that? Why does he fly off into the sky? Also, it feels like he's getting, you know, he's all sad and mournful, but then shoots up in the sky. It's like, well, that looks like a happy ending. I actually dislike that ending enormously. And I think it's because we've seen Gwen crying quite a lot this episode. And having her cry that horrible Jack is going away. Like, it's just too much. That whole scene is just too overwrought and too overplayed. And you've got Reese undercutting it a little bit. And even just having her continually turning around as they go off together, as her and Reese go off together, she keeps turning around and looking in the sky after Jack, as if she's kind of still, like, she can't just settle into now I have my husband and a child and I'm okay. He goes back to all the crap back in season. Yeah exactly. I thought we'd put behind us. You know? Jack is not the man for her. This is Reese. you know she loves him. We don't need that. Like, she could have given stuff, let him go. and not be as distressed, you know? And, you know, this is my guy and really pointing that out. Yeah, and but it's also, this is like Russell thing. It's like Jack is his Doctor Who, you know, for this show. And so the companion for one of a better term for whatever Gwen's role is, is to be constantly pining after the doctor. And it's just that's the Russell's mode with how things work. It's the assistant is always obsessed. Yeah, and it would. Yeah, it would have been much better, I think, for her to have been kind of happy to see him go. Yeah. Like, or fit her to be philosophical about. I mean, he's been responsible for the death of pretty much everyone she met at Torchwood. He literally says that. And she still wants to know if he's okay. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I think that is a little bit unsatisfying. Also, like, I feel like he doesn't even get away, you know, he doesn't even get punished for Ianto dying. And it's up to Gwen and Andy to go and deliver the news to the system. Yeah, yeah. Oh wow. That is also really heartbreaking when she goes, oh, he was a master tailor. It's like, no, he worked at Debonance. He didn't know anything about him. Yeah, no, that was a great moment. It's really, really good because the master tailor thing. I think I've said that before, is such cheesy, ludicrous TV writers backstory. And so instead we discovered that actually there's a real thing and he's a loser who broke Yanto's arm that one time, remember? Or his leg. I can't remember. But there is something about him that he's actually a lot less impressive. I mean, that seems great just because the woman who plays Rhiannon is so incredibly good. Teddy Ricks is so good. Yeah, I love her. Just fantastic. But I mean, that is the case with this season is that every one of those actors playing any of the sport roles. All of them are just so impressive. And of course, even the guys with the big rubber stick that are banging it on the window to make the spew happen. They're good too. But at that mean, it's totally anchored by 8 miles. and Peter Capaldi and what's the name, Lois? Oh, Chris Jumbo. Like, it's totally anchored by all of them. The saddest thing about this episode is that Kush Jumbo is in a prison cell for most of it. And even does some good eye acting through the porthole. Yeah. But it's not anchored by Barrowman. No, he's terrible. And that's my biggest takeaway rewatching this is how adequate he is. He's adequate. But he's not impressive. Imagine like Paldi doing the scene where he has to sacrifice his own grandchild. Like Capaldi going home with Property 31 is just like you see the weight. You see the horror. You see the planning and it's just, this is the worst day of his life. Whereas Barriman's like, I've got a bit of a hangnail. He does tear up. He does tear up. stoic. But, you know, if you pull out your hangnails. pleasant. Well, that's all the time we have for this week and for this season. We'll be back later in the year to consider Terry Nation's contribution to our favourite television program in 500 year diary season 5, Turanium Core. In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts and you can keep up with us on our website, 500yearDiary.com, where you'll find our social media links as well as links to all of our other podcasts, including the entirety of flights or entirety which comprises every episode of our 4 Doctor Who podcasts. Until next time, remember that if you lead a wicked life during your time on Earth, you'll be forced to atone for your sins by going on a date with Russell Tovey. So be warned. Thank you very much for listening and good night. See you soon. That was 500 year diary, starring Todd Bealby, Nathan Bottomley and Adam Richard. The theme was composed by Cameron Lamb. This episode, What the World Is Like, was recorded on the 28th of March 2026, and released on the 12th of April. Thank you all for joining us for season 4 of 500-year diary and particular thanks to those people who joined us on the sofa of reasonable comfort. Melvin Peña, Johnny Spandral, Kevin Bernard, Fiona Tomney, and Adam Richard. We'll see you in season five. But again, back to you saying about Peter Capelli is just seeing him in this role, but having now seen him in 3 years of Drop 2. how impressive he is. Yet again, you know, in something that's completely different to the doctor. Have you watched the show with him and Kush Jumbo? I think it's called criminal record. Record? They're both so great. It is like they're circling each other. It's on Netflix. Oh, Apple TV. Apple TV? right. It's like 8 episodes or something or 6 it's not very long and it's police. It's a police. Yeah, detective, all kind of thing, but there's a thing in the past that Capaldi's character is done and you're never really sure and there might be some racism and it's all... Yeah, it's, but you just like, he's so great. Like, he's this kind of proud character who's a bit downtrodden who's trying to do the right thing, but is also messed up a lot and he's so good at having all of that going on. Whereas Barriman's like, I'm wearing a coat. Yeah, yeah. That's it. And probably a wig. Oh yeah, that hair is too much. But you know who I'd love to see back on Telly, and that's Eve Miles. Oh, yeah, she's in the moment. It's on Stan with David Morris, the episode. Wow. Wow. Yeah. She's alarmingly blonde in it. Alarmingly blonde and apparently he's a really complex character. I've not seen it but I really want to. And she was great in that, um, was it the 2nd season of Broadchurch? Like the only good thing in that 2nd season of Broadchurch. Oh, God, I don't even think I got to it. They gave they did give Olivia Coleman a lot of... It's just like, how can we resolve this mystery? in a way that gives Olivia Coleman the most opportunities to do acting. Oh, she's so great. She's so good. That's such a terrible show. It's awful But it's well cast again. But here, you know, this is by far the best season of Torchwood. Yeah. Oh, yeah. It's a proper thing. And like, I think it's like, I think it's like a season 7 Doctor Who as well. You know, one of the things about Doctor Who being like 45 minute adventures is that you never get to spend time with the regular cast. Now we've got this massive regular cast. We know all of them. They're all interesting to watch. They can each anchor a scene. We have whole scenes with just Alice, you know, and she's tremendous. And you never get to do that in Doctor Who. So it just felt like it felt like a throwback. It felt like the pertu era. Yeah, it felt like old school Doctor Who, when you have six half hour episodes and you got to know these people. Sure, none of them made it to the final episode. Horrifying rocks too, on my face. Everyone died. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hated Adelaide, but you know. But yeah, yeah. Like, I think that's, like, and so I think that's why that's so good. And I think the next year, like, um, uh, Miracle Day has an incredible strong hawk, like a great hook. And some great actors. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they kill off all the great females. Never be a doctor in torture. Just say that. The 3rd doctor. Yeah, Vera. In that incredible. That's an incredible. There are incredible moments in the next season, but it goes to Helena. I think I think, again, it's the same, the advantage that this has over Miracle Day and over war between, I think, is that it's 5 episodes over 5 days. And so it has that incredible propulsiveness, but just that Aristotelian unity. Like it's all about a particular week. Like a very bad week that everyone's having. Yeah, you don't have those gaps in time. No. But also too, it's not American. No offence. But I think that does affect. Miracle Day. I mean, we love American genre TV. And we were watching a stack of it at the time. And, you know, it meant that we had John DeLancey and our visitor and Jane Spenson writing episodes and stuff, which was, you know she writes maybe the best episode, I think. And so all of that stuff's kind of good. It was too many. It was trying to do too long. Yeah, it was it was before we hit this weird thing where they were like, oh, maybe we don't need to do 13 episodes of everything. We don't need to do 10 episodes. It's meant to be six. That's fine. Yeah, but 10 wasn't enough for the kids in space. No. Yeah, Starfleet 902 when I was, people been calling it. I'm still sad about that. Yeah.