WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-05-03 at 08:52:36

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to 500 year diary, the only

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Doctor Who podcast that thinks it's about time they cleaned up

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that dreadful mess at Mermaid Key.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Fiona.

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I'm Peter, and I'm Todd.

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It's Thursday the ninth of July 2009.

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It's been just 23 hours since the 456 unveiled their Amazon wish

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list, and tonight, well over 6000000 people have tuned in to watch

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the Prime Minister chewing his lip, while his mouse pointer hovers

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over the buy now button.

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It's time to watch Torchwood, Children of Earth, day four.

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All right, so we open with 1965 Scotland, and this is really the

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moment where the first of the two plot threads gets resolved, isn't

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it?

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We've had 2 plot threads.

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We have why the children behaving like this.

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But the other one is, why is everyone trying to kill Jack?

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Apart from the obvious reason that he's played by John Barriman.

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Those kids are just watched the web planet.

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They were ready to die.

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I think they might have just actually watched episode one of the

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Dale X Master plan, perhaps.

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Yeah, we're all children these days.

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You know what?

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I can't believe they talk about the Indonesian flu and killing 25

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million.

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Like, this is all pre-COVID.

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It's just such a coincidence.

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Yeah, it is pretty amazing, isn't it?

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So we've seen this scene before.

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We saw it at the beginning of episode one and we saw some

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flashbacks last night when Clem started to remember what was kind

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of happening.

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But now we see it right from the beginning, don't we?

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And we see it before the children are involved.

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We see all of the adults who are killed, like those other 3 adults

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that are killed at the same time is Jack is killed.

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And we see what's really going on.

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And we're presented with a trolly problem, I think.

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It's 25000000 people or the lives of 12 children.

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This is why I don't particularly rate the way that this story

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plays out.

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I think it's got very good atmospherics, but at heart it is just

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the trolly problem, and we've seen that so many times in drama

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that it didn't really have much effect on me. discuss.

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Well, I think we'll talk more about the trolly problem next week

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because that's obviously a thing.

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And at the very end of this episode, the trolly problem becomes

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67000000000 people or 35000000 children.

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And that seems worse for some reason than what happened in 1965.

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And then eventually it becomes one child and 67000000000 people

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and that's the trolly problem that we presented within tomorrow

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nights episode.

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But what's the solution?

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Well, in fact, what the solution always is in Doctor Who, because

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Doctor Who doesn't subscribe to the consequentialist morality that

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says, well, it's got to be the best outcome for the best number of

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people.

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And we have Yanto, I actually say, an injury to one is an injury

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to all.

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There's no injury that you can inflict on some people that doesn't

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in some way affect everyone else.

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And so what Doctor Who does is it always creates an opportunity

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for the doctor to refuse the morality of the of the trolly

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problem.

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Oh, he stops the train.

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Yeah.

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Just finds a cunning plan to somehow stop the train so nobody

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dies.

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Exactly.

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And that's kind of what Yanto says to Jack, isn't it?

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Like Yanto says the jack I know would have stood up against this.

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And then later when Jack and Yanto get into the car, Jack says to

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Yanto, let's go and stand up to this.

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Like he kind of accepts that the trolly problem is an unacceptable

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framing.

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And I think what's really good about this is that it actually

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plays with all of that stuff.

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So Jack tries to stand up.

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He refuses the trolly problem framing of the situation, and this

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episode, and what I think makes this maybe the best episode of the

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week of the run, is that it looks like they're going to win at the

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end of episode 4, and there's all these little triumphant punch

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the air moments for the audience, as we see Torchwood, finally

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fighting back, and of course, it doesn't work.

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And so next week, Jack has no choice.

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But to accept the trolly problem framing, and he gets a trolly

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problem where it's one life up against 67000000000 lives, but it's

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the life of his own grandchild and the destruction of his

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relationship with his daughter that is the price that he has to

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pay.

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Yeah, yeah.

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They make it explicit in the drama, don't they?

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They say that when the doctor isn't there, when he doesn't drop

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down from space and solve things for them, then they have to

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accept the framing, they things go awry and so they have to make

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the hard choices because the doctor isn't there to save the

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situation.

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And in fact, the only time, really, when the trolly problem kind

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of works in Doctor Who is, when it's someone who willingly

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sacrifices themselves to save other people.

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And sometimes that's even the doctor, of course, because he can

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regenerate.

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But the idea that the doctor gives his own life to save people or

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you know, that Galloway, gives his life to save people or

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whatever.

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But that's not what happens here because anyway, we're getting

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ahead of ourselves, I think.

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Jack doesn't come off at all well here, like with the kids. saying

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that it's an adventure and he's really awful.

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And the 456 don't take 12 children.

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They only take 11.

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Yeah. which adds into the situation.

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Maybe they're back because they didn't get that one as well, even

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though it's not explicitly stated anyway.

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It's 9% better than their original.

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But it's Gwen who says to Jack, this was a protection racket, and

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you must have known that they would be back, you know, and he said

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well, we had 44 years.

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Yeah, 44 years to come up with a solution and they just kind of

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pretended it didn't happen.

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My problem with was with the crazy evil ice agents that were going

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around trying to kill Jack and everybody else. because it became

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clear that they didn't really know what Jack's involvement was and

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what had actually happened and about the children towards the end

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of episode four.

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So I thought, well, why were you so psychotically hell bent on

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just murdering all these people in cold blood?

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Like, I couldn't see like why anyone would want to actually do

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that and take such pleasure in doing it.

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Yeah, I mean, that whole plot there gives us space to have

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exciting things happen while we wait for the four, five, 6 to

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arrive.

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And so episodes one and 2 are largely about the, like there's the

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mystery of what the children are doing and why, but that's not the

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plot that's actually going on.

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The plot is the government is out to kill Jack and the members of

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Torchwood because of the blank page that Capoldi, well, doesn't

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sign, but gives to Bridget.

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And then bitch faces just killing everybody like for 4 episodes.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And the great thing about this episode is, and her name's Johnson

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I think.

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But do they actually say that anywhere?

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Like maybe once.

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Maybe once.

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I didn't even, I was trying to hear her name and I was looking in

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the, you know, the credits and I'm going, I just kept calling you

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the bitch face all the time, like anxious in black.

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She says killing people off left, right and centre.

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What is her motivation?

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Is she going to get away with this, you know?

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But she actually is on our side by the end of this.

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And that's the really great moment.

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Like, it's not just that this 1st plot gets resolved when Jack is

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revealed to have given the kids to the 456 back in 1965.

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And I'd actually forgotten that too.

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I'd forgotten that point.

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In fact, you know, the way that you talk about it, Todd, where

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we've talked about the way that the show, and it's particularly

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next week's episode, the show lands on drug use as a metaphor for

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what the 456 are doing to the children.

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But there's a real sense in which the metaphor is paedophilia

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where they're abusing the children in order to get physical

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pleasure.

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Yeah, in order to get satisfaction.

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And so, and that paedophilia thing keeps coming up.

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Yanto gets called a pervert when he tries to talk to a little girl

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in the playground.

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Which is very ill advised.

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Yeah, yeah.

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But here you've got Jack saying, come with me, I'm going to take

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you on a lovely adventure.

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And so his, you know, involvement here is like a creepy pedo, you

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know, like luring children away.

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And so it's really, really, like, it's not just that he's killing

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the children, but he's doing it in this really creepy way.

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He's preying on vulnerable children who have no one to care about

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them.

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And he, he, like, with Clem, he touches the back of Clem's neck

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and puts his hand on Clem's shoulder in order to encourage him to

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go there.

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Like, there's a lot of physical tenderness between him and Clem in

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that in that flashback scene.

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It's really, really brutally hard to what?

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It is, it's quite known. squirmy to watch and and that whole like

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come on a let's come on an exciting adventure like that's the

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impression I got as well that it very much is a child sexual abuse

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kind of opening line and yeah, I've had a man say that to me when

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I was a teenager.

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Come outside.

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I've got something exciting to show you.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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That's right.

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That's what we were always told as kids, as members of Gen X, you

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know, that someone would turn up to our school in a van and say

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you know, come with me, I want to show you a puppy.

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Like, that was absolutely how that was frightening. ice cream.

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I'm gonna have ice cream.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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I wouldn't have cared to have known what John Barriman would have

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splattered all over the inside of the street.

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Even without knowing what happens at the end of episode five, I

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found him very unlikeable throughout the whole rewatching.

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I didn't actually watch episode 5 this time.

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I just went, no, I've made it to episode four.

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Like, I don't know that I need that extra trauma.

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I employed the same philosophy with the dominators.

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It's like, yeah, I don't need that at the time in my life.

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But yeah, I found him quite unlikeable throughout the thing.

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But I also found he's, I didn't particularly bond with his

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daughter either.

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I'm not sure whether it's I just didn't like her hair.

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That sounds like a good thing to say.

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She had her Caroline Ford hair happening.

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I thought.

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Yeah, it was a bit kind of, I found a hairstyle very jarring.

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But no, I didn't find her, especially somebody that I sort of

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really sort of liked or sympathised with.

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Yanto's sister was just gorgeous.

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Yeah.

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We have raved about the act of who plays Alice earlier on. this

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season, and I think she was fantastic, like in last night's

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episode where she smacks the guy in the face with a chopping board

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and, you know, threatens Johnson with a gun.

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All that's pretty gray.

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I think she's terrific.

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But she's not necessarily warm. up to that point where she's

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actually threatened.

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Yeah.

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I mean, I like a performance all the way through.

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I'm just saying, I like the character more in these back 2

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episodes than I do earlier on when her family is under threat and

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what Jack is doing is just awful.

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And just to go back to some of the things that you've been

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saying.

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It is so disturbing to watch.

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I find this just so icky the whole way through.

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And when that poor child is revealed in the 456 puppet child.

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Yeah, like, you know, the sky is full of diamonds or whatever.

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It's just so sickly and gross.

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Like, it's just so disturbing and everything is just, it just goes

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back to Jack's character.

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He's really not a nice person like in this.

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And how can you have a lead that's not a nice person.

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You know what I mean?

249
00:13:38.879 --> 00:13:41.220
Like, I know the doctor's not a nice person in Doctor Who

250
00:13:41.220 --> 00:13:45.000
sometimes, but to this level, they really are sending him down a

251
00:13:45.000 --> 00:13:45.779
certain path.

252
00:13:45.840 --> 00:13:47.460
It's it's that thing.

253
00:13:47.519 --> 00:13:51.480
Peter, you complain about the early portrayal of Capaldi's doctor

254
00:13:51.480 --> 00:13:55.919
in season eight, you know, she's my carer, she cares, so I don't

255
00:13:55.919 --> 00:13:56.279
have to.

256
00:13:56.340 --> 00:14:00.480
But there's that line in this episode, isn't there where...

257
00:14:00.480 --> 00:14:03.480
That's why they chose Jack because he wouldn't, he wouldn't care

258
00:14:03.480 --> 00:14:07.980
that the children were being sent off to this awful, awful fate.

259
00:14:08.039 --> 00:14:08.340
Yeah.

260
00:14:08.399 --> 00:14:10.860
Yeah, and he doesn't know what the fate is.

261
00:14:10.919 --> 00:14:13.259
He doesn't know exactly what it is, but he does know that it's not

262
00:14:13.259 --> 00:14:15.360
paradise because there's no such thing.

263
00:14:15.419 --> 00:14:20.220
I think, like, that's perhaps the chief problem of torchwood.

264
00:14:20.279 --> 00:14:24.059
Partly it is that just John Barrowman isn't a very strong actor.

265
00:14:24.120 --> 00:14:28.620
And so the very, very emotional scenes, for me at least, don't

266
00:14:28.620 --> 00:14:32.159
land at all, but also that his character is massively unlikeable

267
00:14:32.159 --> 00:14:32.700
in the show.

268
00:14:32.759 --> 00:14:38.100
And I remember the experience of seeing him again in utopia.

269
00:14:38.159 --> 00:14:42.960
And even having him say, oh, that's right, you know, this is what

270
00:14:42.960 --> 00:14:46.259
it used to be like because he's really enjoying himself, the

271
00:14:46.259 --> 00:14:47.159
doctors around.

272
00:14:47.220 --> 00:14:51.179
Martha's there, they're running from the future kind, like they're

273
00:14:51.179 --> 00:14:51.659
having fun.

274
00:14:51.720 --> 00:14:55.200
And it was such a relief after just the misery of watching him

275
00:14:55.200 --> 00:14:59.399
kind of mooning his way through those 1st 2 seasons.

276
00:14:59.460 --> 00:15:01.500
Could you choose another?

277
00:15:03.120 --> 00:15:07.620
I mean, we're talking around the problem slightly in that Captain

278
00:15:07.620 --> 00:15:10.620
Jack is a sporting character and he works as supporting colour.

279
00:15:10.679 --> 00:15:14.519
He doesn't work as a lead because he doesn't have the necessary

280
00:15:14.519 --> 00:15:15.840
depth of a lead character.

281
00:15:15.899 --> 00:15:16.740
So what they do.

282
00:15:16.799 --> 00:15:20.700
The reason why Torchwood, as a rule, is not that satisfactory, and

283
00:15:20.700 --> 00:15:23.759
why children of Earth works better than the others, is that lead

284
00:15:23.759 --> 00:15:25.500
is not Jack, it's Gwen.

285
00:15:25.559 --> 00:15:26.039
Yeah.

286
00:15:26.100 --> 00:15:26.759
Yeah.

287
00:15:26.820 --> 00:15:28.019
God, she's good.

288
00:15:28.080 --> 00:15:28.980
She is really good.

289
00:15:29.279 --> 00:15:31.799
We'll talk about it at the end of the episode.

290
00:15:31.860 --> 00:15:34.620
We'll talk a little bit more about how this episode ends, but I

291
00:15:34.620 --> 00:15:37.860
think Gwen is what actually lands the whole thing.

292
00:15:37.919 --> 00:15:40.980
But there's so many great actors in this.

293
00:15:41.039 --> 00:15:42.240
Yeah.

294
00:15:42.240 --> 00:15:45.360
You know, you don't like Johnson, but I actually think she gives

295
00:15:45.360 --> 00:15:46.679
an incredible performance.

296
00:15:46.740 --> 00:15:48.539
No, I don't like the character.

297
00:15:48.600 --> 00:15:52.379
Like, because she's just like killing everybody for no reason, but

298
00:15:52.379 --> 00:15:53.279
she's really good.

299
00:15:53.340 --> 00:15:56.820
Alice, again, you know, I said I like her in the last 2 episodes

300
00:15:56.820 --> 00:15:59.340
but you know, you look at Reese.

301
00:15:59.399 --> 00:16:03.000
You look at Capaldi, you look at his secretary, whose name I

302
00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:03.720
always forget.

303
00:16:03.840 --> 00:16:06.600
Bridget, the prime minister is good, Bridget, the prime minister.

304
00:16:06.659 --> 00:16:07.200
Yep.

305
00:16:07.200 --> 00:16:08.340
Rhiannon.

306
00:16:08.399 --> 00:16:09.480
Yanto sister.

307
00:16:09.539 --> 00:16:10.980
Oh, and her husband.

308
00:16:11.039 --> 00:16:12.000
Yeah, yeah, Johnny.

309
00:16:12.059 --> 00:16:15.000
Who you think, oh, yeah, he's going to be a real, you know

310
00:16:15.000 --> 00:16:15.480
whatever.

311
00:16:15.600 --> 00:16:16.559
But he actually comes through.

312
00:16:16.620 --> 00:16:17.820
Yeah, yeah.

313
00:16:17.879 --> 00:16:19.620
And of course, Lois, you know?

314
00:16:19.679 --> 00:16:20.820
She's great.

315
00:16:20.879 --> 00:16:21.779
They're all great.

316
00:16:21.840 --> 00:16:23.879
And it just shows up.

317
00:16:24.419 --> 00:16:26.159
Barriman.

318
00:16:26.220 --> 00:16:27.360
I'm sorry it does.

319
00:16:27.419 --> 00:16:28.379
Yeah, it does.

320
00:16:28.500 --> 00:16:28.799
It does.

321
00:16:28.860 --> 00:16:29.220
I agree.

322
00:16:29.279 --> 00:16:31.139
Eros Lynn always casts swell.

323
00:16:31.200 --> 00:16:33.360
And so this has a magnificent cast.

324
00:16:33.419 --> 00:16:38.159
Susan Brown, who plays Bridget, is amazing and does so much with

325
00:16:38.159 --> 00:16:38.820
so little.

326
00:16:38.940 --> 00:16:44.399
And to get someone like Kush Jumbo in her earlier career, is just

327
00:16:44.399 --> 00:16:46.139
you know, quite a find.

328
00:16:46.200 --> 00:16:47.100
She's amazing in this.

329
00:16:47.159 --> 00:16:49.559
There's that moment, the one big punch the air moment.

330
00:16:49.620 --> 00:16:53.460
And we're supposed to, you know, we're relieved that Torchwood, uh

331
00:16:53.460 --> 00:16:56.519
like Torchwood has this big heist thing at the end and we'll talk

332
00:16:56.519 --> 00:16:59.759
more about it, perhaps a little bit later, but they have a plan.

333
00:16:59.820 --> 00:17:04.140
It's not revealed to us beforehand, and it seems to go incredibly

334
00:17:04.140 --> 00:17:04.500
well.

335
00:17:04.559 --> 00:17:06.720
It seems to be really, really successful.

336
00:17:06.779 --> 00:17:11.220
And it's the moment where Lois, who is just an ordinary person and

337
00:17:11.220 --> 00:17:13.920
she puts a hand up and says, I'm a voter, you know, I'm in this

338
00:17:13.920 --> 00:17:14.160
room.

339
00:17:14.220 --> 00:17:15.779
I have something to say.

340
00:17:15.839 --> 00:17:18.779
And then she she gives her big speech.

341
00:17:18.779 --> 00:17:23.099
And then she goes, um, uh, and I guess that's it.

342
00:17:24.000 --> 00:17:28.079
She doesn't have a proper ending to the speech because she's not

343
00:17:28.079 --> 00:17:29.640
the doctor and she's not Jack.

344
00:17:29.700 --> 00:17:33.480
And then she just does this tiny smile of triumph, which is so

345
00:17:33.480 --> 00:17:35.460
exciting and so well judged.

346
00:17:35.519 --> 00:17:37.200
She's magnificently good.

347
00:17:37.259 --> 00:17:40.680
But they're both, both secretaries. are so good.

348
00:17:40.740 --> 00:17:44.160
And because Bridget's not given a lot to do. her desk stare at

349
00:17:44.160 --> 00:17:46.440
lowest all the way through all the way through.

350
00:17:46.500 --> 00:17:49.079
And of course, we'll talk about her moment of tribe, which is next

351
00:17:49.079 --> 00:17:49.319
week.

352
00:17:49.380 --> 00:17:50.099
Yeah, yeah.

353
00:17:50.099 --> 00:17:53.279
But she's just so good in those small roles and you're only as

354
00:17:53.279 --> 00:17:54.779
good as your weakest link.

355
00:17:54.839 --> 00:17:57.000
Yeah. and it's Barryman.

356
00:17:58.680 --> 00:18:00.480
No, it is.

357
00:18:00.539 --> 00:18:05.220
It is, but, you know, that whole cabinet meeting.

358
00:18:05.279 --> 00:18:06.960
I mean, that's too fair to talk about that.

359
00:18:07.019 --> 00:18:08.279
Yeah, yeah.

360
00:18:08.339 --> 00:18:12.839
I think that's in a way really central to the entire show, isn't

361
00:18:12.839 --> 00:18:13.079
it?

362
00:18:13.140 --> 00:18:14.579
Maybe we do talk about that.

363
00:18:14.640 --> 00:18:18.480
So that meeting, it's the Cobra meeting, which is a real thing

364
00:18:18.480 --> 00:18:23.339
that actually happens when there is some kind of crisis.

365
00:18:23.400 --> 00:18:26.460
There was all sorts of news reports about it, for instance, during

366
00:18:26.460 --> 00:18:27.119
COVID.

367
00:18:27.180 --> 00:18:31.380
So it is a real thing, but it's the speech by Denise.

368
00:18:31.920 --> 00:18:38.160
Denise Riley, who will, it seems at the end of tomorrow night's

369
00:18:38.160 --> 00:18:43.559
episode, be taking over as Prime Minister, perhaps, or at least in

370
00:18:43.559 --> 00:18:47.640
a position to kind of run the Prime Minister because she knows

371
00:18:47.640 --> 00:18:49.200
where all the bodies are buried.

372
00:18:49.740 --> 00:18:53.220
Basically, Boris Johnson, let them die and then take over as prime

373
00:18:53.220 --> 00:18:53.579
minister.

374
00:18:53.640 --> 00:18:57.900
Well, I mean, we have, you know, we have a green at a time when

375
00:18:57.900 --> 00:19:00.539
Brown is actually the Prime Minister.

376
00:19:01.140 --> 00:19:05.460
So it's that incredible speech that everyone remembers about what

377
00:19:05.460 --> 00:19:10.140
the school league tables are for, that sat around the table.

378
00:19:10.200 --> 00:19:15.960
They have decided that nice people like us are not going to have

379
00:19:15.960 --> 00:19:17.880
to have our children taken away.

380
00:19:17.940 --> 00:19:22.140
And because it's 10% rather than like 50% or something like that

381
00:19:22.140 --> 00:19:27.119
we can just ensure that the people that we don't know, the people

382
00:19:27.119 --> 00:19:31.559
who are not like us, the people that we don't care about, other

383
00:19:31.559 --> 00:19:33.660
people who suffer at this point.

384
00:19:33.720 --> 00:19:39.000
And it's that thing which she says, which I just think is amazing

385
00:19:39.000 --> 00:19:43.559
where she says, God knows we've tried and we've failed.

386
00:19:43.680 --> 00:19:48.000
Now, I don't know whether she means we've tried to persuade the

387
00:19:48.000 --> 00:19:51.299
456 to be happy with a smaller number of children.

388
00:19:51.420 --> 00:19:53.339
What was it going to be?

389
00:19:53.400 --> 00:19:56.519
It was going to be 6700 children.

390
00:19:56.579 --> 00:19:59.460
We tried, but they wouldn't agree to that.

391
00:19:59.519 --> 00:20:03.240
But I think what she means is that there's an underclass in

392
00:20:03.240 --> 00:20:08.220
England that we've tried to help, but they just won't be helped

393
00:20:08.220 --> 00:20:10.920
and they're the ones that are on benefits.

394
00:20:10.980 --> 00:20:12.599
They're the ones that are on the estate.

395
00:20:12.660 --> 00:20:17.339
They're Yanto's family, essentially, and the people whose children

396
00:20:17.339 --> 00:20:21.480
are being looked after by Rhiannon in their home, they're the

397
00:20:21.480 --> 00:20:23.160
people who we're going to sacrifice.

398
00:20:23.220 --> 00:20:26.880
And that's the way that the British government has historically

399
00:20:26.880 --> 00:20:27.299
worked.

400
00:20:27.420 --> 00:20:31.019
Those are the people who suffer the most when we're doing

401
00:20:31.019 --> 00:20:32.700
austerity.

402
00:20:32.759 --> 00:20:36.599
Those are the people who Harriet Jones improve the life of during

403
00:20:36.599 --> 00:20:38.099
her short prime ministership.

404
00:20:38.160 --> 00:20:42.119
But those are the people that basically, in real, in Britain in

405
00:20:42.119 --> 00:20:46.319
real life, other people who are left behind, who we abandon.

406
00:20:46.380 --> 00:20:50.579
So the decision that's being made there, the decision that Denise

407
00:20:50.579 --> 00:20:54.480
is being advocated for is, in a way, the decision that the British

408
00:20:54.480 --> 00:20:57.000
government makes essentially every day.

409
00:20:57.059 --> 00:20:58.799
And it's brutal.

410
00:20:58.859 --> 00:20:59.940
Like it's so brutal.

411
00:21:00.000 --> 00:21:01.019
Yeah.

412
00:21:01.079 --> 00:21:04.740
Yes, and like that whole sequence with that whole discussion and

413
00:21:04.740 --> 00:21:08.160
failed asylum seekers and God, she is good.

414
00:21:08.220 --> 00:21:09.900
She is really, she is really good.

415
00:21:10.019 --> 00:21:10.980
Denise.

416
00:21:10.980 --> 00:21:12.240
Yes, Beavel, Denise.

417
00:21:12.299 --> 00:21:14.160
No, she is really, really good.

418
00:21:14.220 --> 00:21:16.980
It's because the point that she's making.

419
00:21:17.039 --> 00:21:19.740
I'm not saying that it's a good point, but the point that she's

420
00:21:19.740 --> 00:21:21.180
making bears thinking about.

421
00:21:21.240 --> 00:21:22.680
It is a moral question.

422
00:21:22.740 --> 00:21:26.759
If you have a plague that's going to wipe out 20% of the world and

423
00:21:26.759 --> 00:21:30.480
you get to choose which 20, do you allow it to wipe out doctors

424
00:21:30.480 --> 00:21:34.319
and scientists and engineers who might be able to put things

425
00:21:34.319 --> 00:21:37.380
together or do you just let it run its course, like the trolly

426
00:21:37.380 --> 00:21:37.619
problem?

427
00:21:37.680 --> 00:21:43.380
Yeah, but I mean, I guess that sequence is so repellent because

428
00:21:43.380 --> 00:21:47.460
because we're being presented with that very consequentialist

429
00:21:47.460 --> 00:21:51.599
morality, where the people that we deem to be of the most value

430
00:21:51.599 --> 00:21:53.700
are the people who are going to survive.

431
00:21:53.759 --> 00:21:58.680
And because we deem valuable, people like us who sit in offices

432
00:21:58.680 --> 00:21:59.940
and talk about things.

433
00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:01.319
Do you know what I mean?

434
00:22:01.380 --> 00:22:07.259
Like, they're the ones who are apparently vital.

435
00:22:07.319 --> 00:22:11.880
You know, they do talk about nurses and things like that, but

436
00:22:11.880 --> 00:22:14.279
they've described the population as useless.

437
00:22:14.339 --> 00:22:16.380
Remember before we had unemployment.

438
00:22:16.440 --> 00:22:20.819
We had surplus population is what people used to be referred to

439
00:22:20.819 --> 00:22:23.279
early in the 20th century.

440
00:22:23.339 --> 00:22:25.859
People who didn't have jobs, they were surplus.

441
00:22:25.920 --> 00:22:27.900
They were unnecessary.

442
00:22:27.960 --> 00:22:32.640
And, you know, like when you think about what Rhiannon is depicted

443
00:22:32.640 --> 00:22:36.180
as doing in this episode, which is looking after other people's

444
00:22:36.180 --> 00:22:41.759
children so that their parents can go to work doing things like

445
00:22:41.759 --> 00:22:46.019
repairing people's cars or driving their buses or doing incredibly

446
00:22:46.019 --> 00:22:48.359
emptying their business, for God's sake.

447
00:22:48.420 --> 00:22:49.559
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

448
00:22:49.619 --> 00:22:53.160
You know, like genuinely doing things that actually keep society

449
00:22:53.160 --> 00:22:56.880
going, but those are not the people who are valuable because they

450
00:22:56.880 --> 00:22:58.740
didn't go to the good schools.

451
00:22:58.799 --> 00:23:03.119
And it's incredible in the post-COVID era, looking back at that

452
00:23:03.119 --> 00:23:06.180
you know, who are the people who are going out and, you know

453
00:23:06.180 --> 00:23:07.319
putting their health at risk.

454
00:23:07.380 --> 00:23:10.380
They were people who did the everyday service jobs so that we

455
00:23:10.380 --> 00:23:11.279
needed to keep society going.

456
00:23:11.339 --> 00:23:12.240
Yeah, yeah.

457
00:23:12.299 --> 00:23:16.079
People delivering food or working in Amazon fulfilment houses, like

458
00:23:16.079 --> 00:23:22.079
people with crappy jobs, who, you know, were often immigrants or

459
00:23:22.079 --> 00:23:24.119
the children of immigrants and they were the people who were

460
00:23:24.119 --> 00:23:25.200
keeping things going.

461
00:23:25.559 --> 00:23:29.400
It wasn't the Latin teachers, Todd, who were keeping society

462
00:23:29.400 --> 00:23:30.599
going.

463
00:23:30.960 --> 00:23:34.140
You guys would be the 1st on the PR.

464
00:23:34.200 --> 00:23:34.980
I can tell you that.

465
00:23:35.640 --> 00:23:39.839
I do think there is a different moral question over whether you

466
00:23:39.839 --> 00:23:42.720
are choosing, which is what you said, Nathan, the most valuable in

467
00:23:42.720 --> 00:23:45.539
society, or whether you're choosing the least valuable in

468
00:23:45.539 --> 00:23:45.900
society.

469
00:23:45.960 --> 00:23:50.099
Yeah, it's just because that's not an objective measurement.

470
00:23:50.160 --> 00:23:51.119
Do you know what I mean?

471
00:23:51.180 --> 00:23:55.380
We decide the criteria for who are the most valuable and the least

472
00:23:55.380 --> 00:23:56.220
valuable.

473
00:23:56.279 --> 00:24:01.440
And they talk initially about it being random, and that seems less

474
00:24:01.440 --> 00:24:07.920
objectionable in a way that everyone has an equal chance of

475
00:24:07.920 --> 00:24:10.019
suffering from this.

476
00:24:10.019 --> 00:24:17.700
That does seem less obnoxious than no one around this table, our

477
00:24:17.700 --> 00:24:21.779
children and grandchildren are not going to be included in this.

478
00:24:21.900 --> 00:24:25.740
The moment that it suddenly people like us aren't going to be

479
00:24:25.740 --> 00:24:26.279
included.

480
00:24:26.339 --> 00:24:29.519
There's Denise saying, let's go the whole hog and ensure that

481
00:24:29.519 --> 00:24:32.039
people of our social class aren't included.

482
00:24:33.059 --> 00:24:38.339
It's a very disturbing discussion, and it makes you feel

483
00:24:38.339 --> 00:24:38.880
uncomfortable.

484
00:24:38.940 --> 00:24:41.099
Yeah, if we're not already uncomfortable with what's happened

485
00:24:41.099 --> 00:24:42.480
already in the episode.

486
00:24:42.599 --> 00:24:45.900
That's right And what happens at the end of next week is, of

487
00:24:45.900 --> 00:24:48.420
course, it's Denise, who's the last person standing.

488
00:24:48.480 --> 00:24:51.359
She's going to be running Britain going forward.

489
00:24:51.420 --> 00:24:55.140
It's literally the woman who makes that speech about school league

490
00:24:55.140 --> 00:24:57.779
tables, who is left in charge at the end.

491
00:24:57.839 --> 00:25:00.420
Why didn't we have a five-part series, Denise?

492
00:25:02.160 --> 00:25:04.859
The war between the land and Denise.

493
00:25:06.660 --> 00:25:09.599
Well, between the lantern, Tiffany.

494
00:25:18.660 --> 00:25:22.619
And that's the reason why it is so uncomfortable in that these are

495
00:25:22.619 --> 00:25:25.440
the elected representatives, and although they're doing a heinous

496
00:25:25.440 --> 00:25:29.700
thing, that is what they are elected and given the job of doing

497
00:25:29.700 --> 00:25:31.019
deciding these things.

498
00:25:31.079 --> 00:25:34.380
So the fact that they're throwing it around in a meeting is fine

499
00:25:34.380 --> 00:25:36.539
it's the problem is that's where they land.

500
00:25:36.599 --> 00:25:37.680
Yeah, yeah.

501
00:25:37.740 --> 00:25:39.599
It's really brutal too, isn't it?

502
00:25:39.660 --> 00:25:44.160
Like, like, there's a scene too, where Capoldi is in that meeting

503
00:25:44.160 --> 00:25:47.579
and for some reason he's sat at the hand of the table like dad

504
00:25:47.579 --> 00:25:48.960
even though he's kind of no one.

505
00:25:49.019 --> 00:25:51.960
And so he's in the middle of the shot with people sitting on

506
00:25:51.960 --> 00:25:55.259
either side of the table and just the look on his face.

507
00:25:55.319 --> 00:25:56.279
I mean, it's Capaldi.

508
00:25:56.339 --> 00:26:01.440
He's literally the best actor in the room and he is just, he just

509
00:26:01.440 --> 00:26:06.839
looks so disapproving and so, so unimpressed with them.

510
00:26:06.900 --> 00:26:09.660
Can I just say how wonderful he is in this?

511
00:26:09.720 --> 00:26:11.700
Because I haven't met on any episodes yet.

512
00:26:11.759 --> 00:26:13.319
But he's just so effortless, you know?

513
00:26:13.380 --> 00:26:14.880
He just is that character.

514
00:26:14.940 --> 00:26:15.839
Yeah, you know?

515
00:26:15.900 --> 00:26:18.539
It's it's just amazing to watch yet again.

516
00:26:18.599 --> 00:26:22.079
But it's he's the co-lead, isn't he?

517
00:26:22.200 --> 00:26:24.359
Him and Gwen, who split the action between them.

518
00:26:24.420 --> 00:26:26.400
Jack just kind of wanders around in the middle of it.

519
00:26:26.460 --> 00:26:32.400
Except when he's, you know, a corpse in pieces. episode too.

520
00:26:32.460 --> 00:26:34.019
Or, you know, cement block.

521
00:26:34.200 --> 00:26:39.900
I think I've said this before on a podcast with you guys, but the

522
00:26:39.900 --> 00:26:43.920
joy of an actor like Capaldi is that he doesn't have to open his

523
00:26:43.920 --> 00:26:46.500
mouth for you to know exactly what he's thinking.

524
00:26:46.559 --> 00:26:51.240
Like he just has all the emotions just written over his face in

525
00:26:51.240 --> 00:26:56.759
his eyes, in his body language, and that's just what makes him so

526
00:26:56.759 --> 00:26:59.519
incredible to watch and such a strong character.

527
00:26:59.579 --> 00:27:04.619
And he's just got, Yeah, there's sort of like, he goes through the

528
00:27:04.619 --> 00:27:07.680
whole range of emotions in this, like, there's times where he's

529
00:27:07.680 --> 00:27:10.859
looking just really vulnerable and lost, other times where he's

530
00:27:10.859 --> 00:27:15.420
just doing that real steely kind of coldness where he's doing

531
00:27:15.420 --> 00:27:17.880
things that are just unmentionable.

532
00:27:17.940 --> 00:27:22.140
But, yeah, he's he just is, like you said, he's the best actor in

533
00:27:22.140 --> 00:27:22.440
the room.

534
00:27:22.500 --> 00:27:24.779
Like you just, he's amazing to watch.

535
00:27:24.839 --> 00:27:26.819
And he looks so young.

536
00:27:27.299 --> 00:27:31.559
It does. to do with the hair, I think.

537
00:27:31.619 --> 00:27:35.579
This is an incredibly contained performance and I always find it

538
00:27:35.579 --> 00:27:39.240
incredible that Capaldi has given 3 major performances in Doctor

539
00:27:39.240 --> 00:27:41.039
Who and the Doctor Who universe.

540
00:27:41.160 --> 00:27:44.460
The 1st obviously being the doctor, which is a tour de force, the

541
00:27:44.460 --> 00:27:47.700
2nd being this one, and the 3rd being fires of Pompeii, and they

542
00:27:47.700 --> 00:27:49.259
are all completely different performances.

543
00:27:49.319 --> 00:27:52.799
Yeah No, he disappears into those roles.

544
00:27:52.799 --> 00:27:55.619
And, you know, I'm not thinking about the doctor when I see

545
00:27:55.619 --> 00:27:56.519
Frobisher.

546
00:27:56.640 --> 00:27:58.799
He is very, very much more contained.

547
00:27:58.859 --> 00:27:59.940
I think he's terrific.

548
00:28:00.000 --> 00:28:02.039
Like just maybe the best thing in it.

549
00:28:02.099 --> 00:28:02.640
Yes.

550
00:28:02.700 --> 00:28:04.980
But what about Trinity Wells?

551
00:28:05.099 --> 00:28:07.380
What was the UK hiding?

552
00:28:07.440 --> 00:28:10.079
God, she's good. forgotten about her.

553
00:28:10.140 --> 00:28:13.019
We thought actually, because she doesn't appear among the

554
00:28:13.019 --> 00:28:14.460
newscasters at the beginning.

555
00:28:14.519 --> 00:28:17.759
And of course, it's a very RTD thing to kind of tell the story

556
00:28:17.759 --> 00:28:22.619
with this sort of Greek chorus of newscasters, which just sort of

557
00:28:22.619 --> 00:28:23.640
works terrifically well.

558
00:28:23.700 --> 00:28:26.700
And we thought that she wasn't in it and I suspected that maybe

559
00:28:26.700 --> 00:28:30.900
she's not going to be in it because she's a kids show announcer

560
00:28:30.900 --> 00:28:32.519
you know, like she's in Doctor Who.

561
00:28:32.579 --> 00:28:36.119
And we probably don't want small kids who love Doctor Who

562
00:28:36.119 --> 00:28:37.799
necessarily tuning into this.

563
00:28:37.859 --> 00:28:39.599
But I'm really glad she's in it.

564
00:28:39.660 --> 00:28:42.359
Yeah, she's meant to say things like the fat is walking away.

565
00:28:45.000 --> 00:28:47.640
This is written by John Fay.

566
00:28:47.700 --> 00:28:48.359
Yeah.

567
00:28:48.420 --> 00:28:49.680
What has he done?

568
00:28:49.740 --> 00:28:53.039
So Russell had wanted him to do it Doctor Who, but it didn't end

569
00:28:53.039 --> 00:28:53.759
up happening.

570
00:28:53.819 --> 00:28:56.759
He wrote episode 2 of this and episode four.

571
00:28:56.819 --> 00:29:00.059
He had a very long career in one of the soaps, I think.

572
00:29:00.119 --> 00:29:04.500
And he's a playwright, like a proper playwright has written things

573
00:29:04.500 --> 00:29:05.400
for the theatre.

574
00:29:05.460 --> 00:29:11.099
I think that his 2 episodes are both extremely strong.

575
00:29:11.160 --> 00:29:15.779
I mean, 3 is pivotal in the sense that it introduces the 456

576
00:29:15.779 --> 00:29:20.759
properly, but this is the episode, I think, where the 456 get the

577
00:29:20.759 --> 00:29:21.359
biggest run.

578
00:29:21.420 --> 00:29:26.460
I think it very carefully hands off from one major plot to

579
00:29:26.460 --> 00:29:26.819
another.

580
00:29:26.880 --> 00:29:31.740
It does that incredible high point where we get all of these hero

581
00:29:31.740 --> 00:29:34.799
moments and we think that everything's going to go okay and then

582
00:29:34.799 --> 00:29:35.759
everything goes to hell.

583
00:29:35.819 --> 00:29:40.200
Like he actually handles the pace and the ups and downs and stuff

584
00:29:40.200 --> 00:29:42.299
just incredibly well, I think.

585
00:29:42.359 --> 00:29:46.200
He's a Russia, I think, who's in sync with Russell style of

586
00:29:46.200 --> 00:29:47.099
storytelling.

587
00:29:47.160 --> 00:29:50.339
Of course, Russell had that soap background as well.

588
00:29:50.400 --> 00:29:54.180
And this is family drama at the hearts of it.

589
00:29:54.240 --> 00:29:56.279
I mean, obviously the stakes are much bigger than you would get in

590
00:29:56.279 --> 00:29:57.119
soap opera.

591
00:29:57.180 --> 00:29:59.700
But it has that kind of rhythm to it.

592
00:29:59.759 --> 00:30:04.380
And I think unless Russell's done a very heavy rerice on it

593
00:30:04.380 --> 00:30:06.119
they're writers who are simpatico.

594
00:30:06.180 --> 00:30:09.359
Yeah, I mean, I think it is a great shame that we never got to see

595
00:30:09.359 --> 00:30:12.720
him in the main show because he is really, really great.

596
00:30:12.779 --> 00:30:15.839
So it's Russell does one, 3 and five.

597
00:30:15.900 --> 00:30:20.400
He does 3 with James Moran who wrote Fires of Pompeii, and then we

598
00:30:20.400 --> 00:30:21.960
get John Fay doing 2 and four.

599
00:30:25.019 --> 00:30:28.140
But, you know, last episode we had a lot of foreshadowing from

600
00:30:28.140 --> 00:30:28.980
Yanto.

601
00:30:29.039 --> 00:30:31.859
He was talking about like dying and all that sort of stuff. with

602
00:30:31.859 --> 00:30:32.220
Jack.

603
00:30:32.279 --> 00:30:35.339
And of course, it happens here, but in the writing, you've got him

604
00:30:35.339 --> 00:30:38.819
you know, saying, I love you to his sister and we love you too.

605
00:30:38.880 --> 00:30:42.119
So all that little stuff's in there that you get something, like

606
00:30:42.119 --> 00:30:45.180
there's no, I mean, there's not full closure, but you know, you

607
00:30:45.180 --> 00:30:45.839
know what I'm saying?

608
00:30:45.900 --> 00:30:49.259
John's obviously in discussion with Russell thought about these

609
00:30:49.259 --> 00:30:53.400
moments have to happen before we actually do get the whole

610
00:30:53.400 --> 00:30:56.339
confrontation with the 456 and how that goes to hell in a

611
00:30:56.339 --> 00:30:56.819
handbasket.

612
00:30:56.880 --> 00:31:00.960
We'll talk about that, I think, at the end of this episode, but

613
00:31:00.960 --> 00:31:04.619
there is a moment where he's on the phone to Rhiannon, and we

614
00:31:04.619 --> 00:31:08.339
discover later that he's deliberately giving his position away so

615
00:31:08.339 --> 00:31:11.759
that Johnson turns up at the Torchwood warehouse.

616
00:31:11.819 --> 00:31:16.740
But he, he sort of, he says, I love you and I love the kids, and

617
00:31:16.740 --> 00:31:18.660
I'm even warming to Johnny.

618
00:31:18.720 --> 00:31:23.039
And then she actually is still on the line after he hangs up and

619
00:31:23.039 --> 00:31:25.440
she's going, Yanto, are you there?

620
00:31:25.559 --> 00:31:25.920
Are you there?

621
00:31:26.039 --> 00:31:30.299
Like the last thing that we see her, say to him, is asking him

622
00:31:30.299 --> 00:31:31.319
where he is?

623
00:31:31.380 --> 00:31:34.920
And like I just think that that's a beautiful foreshadowing of

624
00:31:34.920 --> 00:31:36.720
what's going to happen at the end of the episode.

625
00:31:36.779 --> 00:31:41.099
I think if you're really attentive, that's the point at which you

626
00:31:41.099 --> 00:31:42.779
know that he's not going to survive.

627
00:31:42.900 --> 00:31:47.880
Even though we are in the midst of the moment of triumph, where

628
00:31:47.880 --> 00:31:53.220
because that phone call also has Yanto warning, the operative of

629
00:31:53.220 --> 00:31:57.119
control, uh, that this is happening, you, you're listening in on

630
00:31:57.119 --> 00:32:00.960
this call, it's your children, it's everyone's children at stake

631
00:32:00.960 --> 00:32:01.259
here.

632
00:32:01.319 --> 00:32:04.859
You know, like it's a really exciting, like there's a lot of

633
00:32:04.859 --> 00:32:05.160
action.

634
00:32:05.220 --> 00:32:07.740
There's a lot of, you know, everyone has their job to do.

635
00:32:07.799 --> 00:32:09.660
Everyone seems to be doing their job very well.

636
00:32:09.720 --> 00:32:12.299
Everything's working at that point in the episode.

637
00:32:12.359 --> 00:32:14.640
We don't know that it's going to end in disaster.

638
00:32:14.819 --> 00:32:18.180
There's that conversation that they always have in Doc 2.

639
00:32:18.299 --> 00:32:20.339
I think we might have touched on this in episode one about the

640
00:32:20.339 --> 00:32:23.279
doctor goes on and the companions will die.

641
00:32:23.339 --> 00:32:29.039
And the series is setting up that question with Jack and Yanto.

642
00:32:29.099 --> 00:32:31.980
But you think in the 1st couple of episodes, there's just a

643
00:32:31.980 --> 00:32:35.519
generic character question, how will their relationship progress?

644
00:32:35.579 --> 00:32:40.799
I think in episode 4, you start to feel that, oh, there's

645
00:32:40.799 --> 00:32:43.140
something to this and the foreboding grows.

646
00:32:43.200 --> 00:32:46.440
I think too, you know, like if you've watched television before

647
00:32:46.440 --> 00:32:48.900
you've got to be aware that there's an hour of stuff that has to

648
00:32:48.900 --> 00:32:51.119
happen tomorrow night at 9 PM.

649
00:32:51.180 --> 00:32:53.519
And so they're not going to solve the problem at the end of this

650
00:32:53.519 --> 00:32:56.460
episode and spend an hour just kind of faffing or saying goodbye

651
00:32:56.460 --> 00:32:57.180
or anything.

652
00:32:57.240 --> 00:33:02.039
So I think you probably are feeling some sense of foreboding, even

653
00:33:02.039 --> 00:33:03.720
amidst all of the excitement.

654
00:33:03.779 --> 00:33:06.420
But Fay does try his best to distract you from that.

655
00:33:06.539 --> 00:33:08.460
The foreboding.

656
00:33:08.519 --> 00:33:11.039
I remember watching it, having that foreboding feeling.

657
00:33:11.099 --> 00:33:16.380
But I thought, no, after killing off Tosh and Owen last year, we're

658
00:33:16.380 --> 00:33:17.339
not going to have deaths.

659
00:33:17.400 --> 00:33:18.240
They're going to get out of this.

660
00:33:18.299 --> 00:33:19.619
They're all going to get out of it.

661
00:33:19.680 --> 00:33:22.319
So that's what my mindset was, even going into this episode.

662
00:33:22.380 --> 00:33:25.319
And as I said, with Yanto asking questions like, do you think your

663
00:33:25.319 --> 00:33:26.160
luck will run out?

664
00:33:26.220 --> 00:33:29.039
You know, I will die of old age or stuff from the previous

665
00:33:29.039 --> 00:33:29.519
episode.

666
00:33:29.579 --> 00:33:30.480
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

667
00:33:30.480 --> 00:33:32.940
It's only now that you when I go back and watch it, that I see

668
00:33:32.940 --> 00:33:33.900
that foreshadowing.

669
00:33:33.960 --> 00:33:36.299
But I didn't see this foreshadowing here, even with him.

670
00:33:36.359 --> 00:33:38.400
No, I didn't at the time.

671
00:33:38.460 --> 00:33:41.819
And I was exactly like you watching this as well, Todd, that I

672
00:33:41.819 --> 00:33:44.940
thought that because Tosh and Owen had died at the end of the

673
00:33:44.940 --> 00:33:48.359
previous season, that Yanto was safe, we weren't going to just be

674
00:33:48.359 --> 00:33:51.059
left with 2 tortured members at the end of this.

675
00:33:51.119 --> 00:33:55.259
So I was surprised, although maybe I was spoiled.

676
00:33:55.319 --> 00:33:57.240
I can't remember, possibly.

677
00:34:03.660 --> 00:34:06.240
Can we talk about the 456?

678
00:34:06.299 --> 00:34:07.559
Just revolting.

679
00:34:07.619 --> 00:34:09.119
Is this in 2009?

680
00:34:09.179 --> 00:34:11.340
This is back in 965 when they were just the 123.

681
00:34:12.360 --> 00:34:16.920
Well, just all that splushing and sploshing and screeching on the

682
00:34:16.920 --> 00:34:19.679
you know, all that vomit stuff onto the...

683
00:34:19.679 --> 00:34:22.500
I loved the way that that was shot because it never happens in the

684
00:34:22.500 --> 00:34:24.000
same scene that the actors are in.

685
00:34:24.059 --> 00:34:26.760
It's always just the same cutaway to the thing, oh, splash

686
00:34:26.760 --> 00:34:27.300
splash.

687
00:34:27.360 --> 00:34:29.340
There's nothing in the white shot.

688
00:34:30.300 --> 00:34:33.780
I mean, it's incredible, isn't it?

689
00:34:33.840 --> 00:34:35.219
Like it's just amazing.

690
00:34:35.280 --> 00:34:39.059
So when we see the rubber puppet child and we have everyone's

691
00:34:39.059 --> 00:34:42.780
reaction to that, which I just think is done incredibly well, that

692
00:34:42.780 --> 00:34:49.679
moment, it's when Lois starts crying, and when Gwen tells Clem

693
00:34:49.679 --> 00:34:52.980
that the thing that's gone wrong with the video on the computer is

694
00:34:52.980 --> 00:34:56.699
that is that Lois is crying, like she works it out.

695
00:34:56.760 --> 00:35:00.900
And then you get Frobisher's reaction as well. like Frobisher just

696
00:35:00.900 --> 00:35:04.679
turns on the 456 really angrily.

697
00:35:04.739 --> 00:35:07.860
Like, like he really, really chose some fire and that's when the

698
00:35:07.860 --> 00:35:09.960
456 absolutely loses it.

699
00:35:10.019 --> 00:35:13.260
And I don't think, like, I, like, maybe it's vomit.

700
00:35:13.320 --> 00:35:16.320
I think it's, it's, it's like it's crapping on the walls.

701
00:35:16.320 --> 00:35:20.219
And, and, and, like, it's very clear that we want it to be

702
00:35:20.219 --> 00:35:21.000
disgusting.

703
00:35:21.059 --> 00:35:24.360
Like, and so it's dripping with mucus.

704
00:35:24.420 --> 00:35:25.920
We don't see it properly.

705
00:35:25.980 --> 00:35:27.659
The shapes are unclear.

706
00:35:27.719 --> 00:35:31.320
The whole kind of, the whole physicality of it is revolting.

707
00:35:31.320 --> 00:35:35.340
And it does that brilliant Doctor Who thing of giving it an

708
00:35:35.340 --> 00:35:39.360
incredibly crisp posh voice as well.

709
00:35:39.420 --> 00:35:43.860
This absolute Eldritch horror, this sort of love crafty and

710
00:35:43.860 --> 00:35:47.699
octopus thing, but it speaks like it went to a very nice school.

711
00:35:49.500 --> 00:35:51.360
Simon would approve.

712
00:35:51.420 --> 00:35:53.579
Exactly, I'm singing the same thing.

713
00:35:54.420 --> 00:35:59.340
The disgusting image that it put in my mind was going back to the

714
00:35:59.340 --> 00:36:02.340
drug analogy with the children, was that kind of, you know

715
00:36:02.340 --> 00:36:03.360
overdose frothing.

716
00:36:03.480 --> 00:36:07.320
Yeah, yeah. just, oh, it's so repellent and visceral.

717
00:36:07.380 --> 00:36:08.340
Yeah, yeah.

718
00:36:08.400 --> 00:36:11.340
Well, when the guy, the hot guy comes out of the tank and they're

719
00:36:11.340 --> 00:36:13.800
kind of hosing him down because he's just covered in all of this

720
00:36:13.800 --> 00:36:19.980
revolting, like kind of staff, like it's really, really so

721
00:36:19.980 --> 00:36:20.760
brutal.

722
00:36:20.820 --> 00:36:25.019
I think it might be the most terrifying Doctor Who monster ever.

723
00:36:25.079 --> 00:36:27.900
Like, I think it might be the most frightening thing that the show

724
00:36:27.900 --> 00:36:28.980
has ever created.

725
00:36:29.039 --> 00:36:31.559
And I think keeping it nameless was the right idea.

726
00:36:31.619 --> 00:36:33.300
I think...

727
00:36:33.300 --> 00:36:35.340
I was just thinking back to the band rolls.

728
00:36:35.880 --> 00:36:39.780
The Dolly that Mrs. Farrell's husband.

729
00:36:43.380 --> 00:36:45.719
That was in mind of the slipper.

730
00:36:46.079 --> 00:36:47.820
Go do it.

731
00:36:55.019 --> 00:36:59.099
And the other moment that I really like from the 456 is where

732
00:36:59.099 --> 00:37:00.659
everyone sort of left the room.

733
00:37:00.719 --> 00:37:03.780
It's like, it's the night before the big confrontation.

734
00:37:03.840 --> 00:37:07.679
It's actually not very clear how this is day 4 because the night

735
00:37:07.679 --> 00:37:09.360
seems to happen in the middle of the episode.

736
00:37:09.420 --> 00:37:12.119
So I kind of lost track of the timing a little bit, but whatever.

737
00:37:12.179 --> 00:37:12.599
It's fine.

738
00:37:12.719 --> 00:37:23.219
When Frobisher presents our compromise proposal of just 6,700

739
00:37:23.219 --> 00:37:23.880
children.

740
00:37:23.940 --> 00:37:26.039
And then he leaves.

741
00:37:26.099 --> 00:37:30.659
He says, that's our final offer, and he leaves, and then it starts

742
00:37:30.659 --> 00:37:35.699
whispering, like it starts quietly whispering the number to itself

743
00:37:35.699 --> 00:37:39.659
before all the children start saying the number.

744
00:37:39.719 --> 00:37:45.000
And again, they find a new thing, a new terrifying thing for the

745
00:37:45.000 --> 00:37:45.960
children to do.

746
00:37:46.019 --> 00:37:47.760
Initially they stop.

747
00:37:47.820 --> 00:37:52.500
Then they speak in unison. then we see them pointing and now we

748
00:37:52.500 --> 00:37:53.340
see them.

749
00:37:53.400 --> 00:37:54.480
They're coming now they're here.

750
00:37:54.539 --> 00:37:55.980
Yeah, yeah, yeah. back.

751
00:37:56.039 --> 00:37:59.400
It escalates so wonderfully and this is yet another new thing for

752
00:37:59.400 --> 00:38:00.239
the children to do.

753
00:38:00.300 --> 00:38:03.420
And my favourite moment is the moment of comedy where Johnny

754
00:38:03.420 --> 00:38:06.119
suggests that maybe they're lottery numbers.

755
00:38:08.280 --> 00:38:10.019
That is funny.

756
00:38:10.079 --> 00:38:11.699
Oh, those children.

757
00:38:11.760 --> 00:38:13.800
All those children in the playground.

758
00:38:13.860 --> 00:38:15.420
Some of them are better than others Yeah.

759
00:38:15.480 --> 00:38:18.119
Well, I think I've said before that I think Misha is absolutely

760
00:38:18.119 --> 00:38:20.219
the goat.

761
00:38:20.280 --> 00:38:24.239
She's the best one, the our most valuable player among the

762
00:38:24.239 --> 00:38:28.199
children because she has a sort of Beetle brow.

763
00:38:28.260 --> 00:38:31.260
She really is kind of going for it in the best way.

764
00:38:31.320 --> 00:38:31.980
She's awesome.

765
00:38:32.039 --> 00:38:35.760
A lot of those children, Yantu's sister is looking after, could

766
00:38:35.760 --> 00:38:36.480
have gone either way.

767
00:38:36.539 --> 00:38:38.579
There was a touch of he got funny eyes now.

768
00:38:39.900 --> 00:38:49.380
But it never quite, never quite tips over. say Can I give the

769
00:38:49.380 --> 00:38:50.519
parents' perspective?

770
00:38:50.519 --> 00:38:51.960
Because, um, Yeah, please.

771
00:38:52.019 --> 00:38:55.199
Yeah, I think one of the reasons I got invited on here was I'm the

772
00:38:55.199 --> 00:38:58.800
only one who's actually got children.

773
00:38:58.860 --> 00:39:01.559
And tell us, Fiona, which one would you have chosen to give to the

774
00:39:01.559 --> 00:39:02.460
456.

775
00:39:02.639 --> 00:39:04.679
That's the whole thing.

776
00:39:05.099 --> 00:39:08.760
At the time, so this was 2009, wasn't it?

777
00:39:08.820 --> 00:39:13.739
Yeah, so my eldest was 9 and the other one would have been about

778
00:39:13.739 --> 00:39:16.380
seven-ish and...

779
00:39:16.440 --> 00:39:18.000
Oh my god, how disturbing.

780
00:39:18.059 --> 00:39:21.239
So they were right at that age where you do have them at home.

781
00:39:21.300 --> 00:39:23.699
You feel incredibly protective of them.

782
00:39:23.760 --> 00:39:29.340
Yeah, you haven't, I haven't, um, rewatched episode 5, but my

783
00:39:29.340 --> 00:39:31.980
memory is that when they come and get the kids, that the parents

784
00:39:31.980 --> 00:39:34.019
are doing everything that they can.

785
00:39:34.079 --> 00:39:35.579
And absolutely.

786
00:39:35.639 --> 00:39:39.179
Like, if somebody came to take away my children, I would get out

787
00:39:39.179 --> 00:39:42.539
of chainsaw to defend them kind of thing, it would be absolutely

788
00:39:42.539 --> 00:39:48.719
everything, and they haven't really touched on it, this episode, um

789
00:39:48.719 --> 00:39:51.420
in episode 4 about when it's being pregnant.

790
00:39:51.480 --> 00:39:56.280
But I just remember when I was pregnant, um, yeah, which was like

791
00:39:56.280 --> 00:40:01.920
twice, you do feel incredibly protective of, of what's growing

792
00:40:01.920 --> 00:40:05.760
inside you and would do anything to sort of make sure that your

793
00:40:05.760 --> 00:40:07.739
baby is safe.

794
00:40:07.800 --> 00:40:10.079
Um, I mean, now sort of rewatching.

795
00:40:10.139 --> 00:40:13.380
I didn't find it quite so traumatic because I wasn't quite in that

796
00:40:13.380 --> 00:40:14.039
headspace.

797
00:40:14.099 --> 00:40:16.139
Um, you know, my children got older.

798
00:40:16.199 --> 00:40:19.440
I sent them off to boarding school and, you know, like, oh.

799
00:40:19.500 --> 00:40:23.219
And now. redecorated their rooms, that kind of thing.

800
00:40:23.280 --> 00:40:25.800
Now they're adults and yeah, kind of thing.

801
00:40:25.860 --> 00:40:27.239
It's like, oh, well, you're fine.

802
00:40:27.300 --> 00:40:28.380
You've survived.

803
00:40:28.440 --> 00:40:32.579
But at the time, you're in that headspace where you are incredibly

804
00:40:32.579 --> 00:40:33.599
protective of them.

805
00:40:33.659 --> 00:40:37.079
And when they brought in this, that whole meeting where they said

806
00:40:37.079 --> 00:40:38.940
oh, let's go over the school league tables.

807
00:40:39.000 --> 00:40:43.380
I found that was really harsh to listen to because my youngest, I

808
00:40:43.380 --> 00:40:46.139
don't think you'd mind me saying this, but he has always like

809
00:40:46.139 --> 00:40:47.579
struggled with literacy.

810
00:40:47.639 --> 00:40:50.880
So he would have like absolutely been one of the people who was

811
00:40:50.880 --> 00:40:51.960
selected to go there.

812
00:40:52.019 --> 00:40:55.139
And I was just like, nobody is taking my son.

813
00:40:55.199 --> 00:41:00.119
Yeah, so that was really, really uncomfortable thinking that your

814
00:41:00.119 --> 00:41:04.679
own children could be in that position and just the, like the

815
00:41:04.679 --> 00:41:08.159
horrible thought of like this, just these innocent kids being

816
00:41:08.159 --> 00:41:08.940
taken away.

817
00:41:09.059 --> 00:41:12.360
Um, not to mention what happens in episode five.

818
00:41:12.420 --> 00:41:13.320
We weren't talk about that.

819
00:41:13.380 --> 00:41:17.039
I mean, you might not remember after all this time, but episode 5

820
00:41:17.039 --> 00:41:22.260
is full of scenes where you've got parents kind of weeping as

821
00:41:22.260 --> 00:41:24.840
their children are being taken away in school buses.

822
00:41:24.900 --> 00:41:30.420
You get armed people's snatching children from their parents' arms

823
00:41:30.420 --> 00:41:32.820
and seeing the distressed parents and stuff.

824
00:41:32.880 --> 00:41:37.980
And I mean, it's really, really rough to watch.

825
00:41:38.039 --> 00:41:41.400
Like, even before what happens to Stephen at the end of the

826
00:41:41.400 --> 00:41:46.440
episode, there's very, very distressing scenes of parents bereaved

827
00:41:46.440 --> 00:41:49.079
of their children or parents whose children are being taken away.

828
00:41:49.139 --> 00:41:50.699
And remember, there's a deal.

829
00:41:50.760 --> 00:41:53.039
You know, the state educates your children.

830
00:41:53.099 --> 00:41:58.079
You entrust your children to something outside your home, and it's

831
00:41:58.079 --> 00:42:00.780
the 1st time that you ever do that is when you surrender the child

832
00:42:00.780 --> 00:42:03.000
to daycare or to school.

833
00:42:03.059 --> 00:42:03.960
Oh, absolutely.

834
00:42:03.960 --> 00:42:04.860
That's hard.

835
00:42:04.920 --> 00:42:07.260
You know, that's really terrifically hard because they've been

836
00:42:07.260 --> 00:42:08.219
with you all the time.

837
00:42:08.280 --> 00:42:10.679
You're entrusting them to strangers to look after.

838
00:42:10.679 --> 00:42:15.059
And those strangers betray you in this case by, you know, then

839
00:42:15.059 --> 00:42:16.860
handing them over to kind of aliens and stuff.

840
00:42:16.980 --> 00:42:21.300
Yeah, and I remember that feeling well, that whole thing of, you

841
00:42:21.300 --> 00:42:23.699
know, you're going from that bit where you are the absolute cent

842
00:42:23.699 --> 00:42:26.280
of your children's life and you know what they're doing every day

843
00:42:26.280 --> 00:42:27.900
and then suddenly you stick them.

844
00:42:27.960 --> 00:42:31.980
My 1st child was sent on a school bus at the age of 3.5 .

845
00:42:32.039 --> 00:42:34.260
He got put on a school bus and sent off.

846
00:42:34.320 --> 00:42:39.119
And that was an incredible moment of trust, you know, and then he

847
00:42:39.119 --> 00:42:41.519
comes home and you're going, well, what have you been doing all

848
00:42:41.519 --> 00:42:42.659
this time when you were without me?

849
00:42:42.719 --> 00:42:45.300
And he's like, oh, yes, you know, stuff.

850
00:42:45.300 --> 00:42:47.579
And you're like devastated.

851
00:42:47.639 --> 00:42:49.559
Because you're suddenly cut out.

852
00:42:49.619 --> 00:42:54.119
The scene where Johnson 1st gets humanised, I think, is in last

853
00:42:54.119 --> 00:43:02.039
night's episode, which is where Alice and Stephen are captured, and

854
00:43:02.039 --> 00:43:05.820
Alice says, you understand that if you hurt my child, I will kill

855
00:43:05.820 --> 00:43:09.360
you, and Johnson says, understood.

856
00:43:09.480 --> 00:43:12.239
Like she just says, yes, that's absolutely...

857
00:43:12.300 --> 00:43:13.380
Yeah, perfectly acceptable.

858
00:43:13.440 --> 00:43:14.579
Yeah, yeah, that's right.

859
00:43:14.639 --> 00:43:16.980
Yeah, and I would be the same.

860
00:43:17.039 --> 00:43:21.059
I would absolutely shoot somebody between the eyes if they hurt my

861
00:43:21.059 --> 00:43:22.320
children even now.

862
00:43:22.380 --> 00:43:25.800
Like I'm just, it's like, no, you don't touch my kids.

863
00:43:25.860 --> 00:43:26.579
It's just a thing.

864
00:43:26.639 --> 00:43:28.019
Yeah.

865
00:43:28.079 --> 00:43:30.480
No, I feel much the same way about my laptop, actually, I have to

866
00:43:30.480 --> 00:43:30.599
say.

867
00:43:30.659 --> 00:43:32.880
I thought you were going to say you were tall.

868
00:43:34.860 --> 00:43:39.239
The scenes that you were talking about, Nathan, where the mothers

869
00:43:39.239 --> 00:43:42.119
are gathered outside the school gates and the children are being

870
00:43:42.119 --> 00:43:46.800
kind of railroaded onto the buses and that's very hard to watch.

871
00:43:46.860 --> 00:43:51.360
And the kids are distressed. right. one boy breaks away and runs

872
00:43:51.360 --> 00:43:54.360
towards his mother and gets kind of like snatched up by a soldier

873
00:43:54.360 --> 00:43:55.380
and put back on thing.

874
00:43:55.440 --> 00:43:58.440
And to give the teachers their due, they are also incredibly

875
00:43:58.440 --> 00:44:01.380
shocked and saddened by what's happening.

876
00:44:01.440 --> 00:44:02.760
They're not helping the soldiers.

877
00:44:10.079 --> 00:44:14.519
Of course, that plan, that incredible plan that seems to be going

878
00:44:14.519 --> 00:44:19.860
so well, runs up against the sheer fact of the 456, I think.

879
00:44:19.980 --> 00:44:22.440
And it's not that it was badly planned.

880
00:44:22.500 --> 00:44:25.679
No one makes a mistake or anything like that, but we're in a room

881
00:44:25.679 --> 00:44:30.420
confronted by the 456 and we cannot deal with them.

882
00:44:30.480 --> 00:44:32.820
We're just not able to do anything about it.

883
00:44:32.880 --> 00:44:38.519
And you've got the 456 repeatedly saying, you yielded in the past

884
00:44:38.519 --> 00:44:43.500
you will do so again, and they just repeatedly say that, no matter

885
00:44:43.500 --> 00:44:45.719
what Jack and Yanto say to them.

886
00:44:45.780 --> 00:44:51.300
There's that wonderful moment as well. where they do the cyberman

887
00:44:51.300 --> 00:44:52.860
speech from the 10th planet.

888
00:44:52.920 --> 00:44:55.559
You know, the What, you'll be like us?

889
00:44:55.619 --> 00:44:56.340
No.

890
00:44:56.340 --> 00:45:04.800
The every 3 seconds a child dies and you adapt and you move on.

891
00:45:04.860 --> 00:45:12.179
The human infant mortality rate is 29,158 deaths per day, and the

892
00:45:12.179 --> 00:45:14.940
human response is to accept and adapt.

893
00:45:15.000 --> 00:45:20.280
It's exactly the conversation that the Cyberman has with Polly in

894
00:45:20.280 --> 00:45:21.300
the 10th planet.

895
00:45:21.360 --> 00:45:26.880
And the fact is that those things happen because in a very large

896
00:45:26.880 --> 00:45:31.500
measure, we don't care, and we choose not to do anything about

897
00:45:31.500 --> 00:45:31.860
it.

898
00:45:32.340 --> 00:45:35.880
So, you know, it turns out the humans were the villains all

899
00:45:35.880 --> 00:45:36.179
along.

900
00:45:36.840 --> 00:45:38.219
Yeah.

901
00:45:38.280 --> 00:45:42.780
That's a very sharp piece of dialogue because it is true.

902
00:45:42.840 --> 00:45:43.500
Yeah.

903
00:45:43.500 --> 00:45:47.099
And so, like the scene in the cabinet room, it does get you

904
00:45:47.099 --> 00:45:47.579
thinking.

905
00:45:47.579 --> 00:45:52.440
And actually, a lot of, a lot of this story, I think, is about

906
00:45:52.440 --> 00:45:58.619
what people will come to accept. and looking a little ahead to

907
00:45:58.619 --> 00:46:03.000
next week where it becomes, we will roll this out under the guise

908
00:46:03.000 --> 00:46:07.199
of giving everyone vaccinations in the post-COVID era.

909
00:46:07.199 --> 00:46:10.679
I found that that didn't really hold any water because you

910
00:46:10.679 --> 00:46:11.880
remember the movie contagion?

911
00:46:11.940 --> 00:46:14.579
which everyone was watching during lockdown.

912
00:46:14.639 --> 00:46:18.000
And at the end of contagion, they have a birthday lottery for who

913
00:46:18.000 --> 00:46:21.539
will get the vaccination against this terrible virus.

914
00:46:21.659 --> 00:46:24.119
And people are clamouring for it.

915
00:46:24.179 --> 00:46:26.760
Whereas we know that in real life that didn't happen.

916
00:46:26.820 --> 00:46:31.019
As soon as we had a vaccination program, there was a great mass of

917
00:46:31.019 --> 00:46:33.840
people who suddenly became, well, we don't want it.

918
00:46:33.900 --> 00:46:37.920
In fact, like doing it under the guise of inoculations, which is

919
00:46:37.920 --> 00:46:40.980
the proposal that Frobisher actually makes in the meeting in this

920
00:46:40.980 --> 00:46:45.840
episode is incredibly dangerous and reckless, isn't it?

921
00:46:45.900 --> 00:46:50.940
Because it would cause people to distrust vaccinations in future.

922
00:46:51.000 --> 00:46:55.739
Like it actually makes vaccination impossible to sell from here on

923
00:46:55.739 --> 00:46:56.099
in.

924
00:46:56.159 --> 00:47:00.599
And we see what happens, you know, we've got measles back with a

925
00:47:00.599 --> 00:47:05.039
vengeance in the US and the possibility of other serious

926
00:47:05.039 --> 00:47:09.119
infectious diseases that have been more or less eradicated.

927
00:47:09.119 --> 00:47:13.619
And because vaccination's been so successful, People don't realise

928
00:47:13.619 --> 00:47:14.940
how necessary it is.

929
00:47:15.000 --> 00:47:19.199
It was just, it was such a different world in 2009, where the

930
00:47:19.199 --> 00:47:22.500
understanding was that if there was some massive threat, people

931
00:47:22.500 --> 00:47:25.619
would be clamouring for the vaccination, we couldn't imagine a

932
00:47:25.619 --> 00:47:28.500
world where that wouldn't be the case and people would reject

933
00:47:28.500 --> 00:47:29.519
vaccination.

934
00:47:29.579 --> 00:47:33.420
And so I found it a dated concept in the show.

935
00:47:33.480 --> 00:47:33.960
Yeah.

936
00:47:33.960 --> 00:47:37.920
But I think it's incredible that it's been explored here.

937
00:47:37.980 --> 00:47:38.760
Do you know what I mean?

938
00:47:38.820 --> 00:47:45.300
that he's actually looking at this in this context and then what

939
00:47:45.300 --> 00:47:48.539
happened in 2019, 2020 happened.

940
00:47:48.599 --> 00:47:53.820
The other thing, too, is that the 456 seem to have something about

941
00:47:53.820 --> 00:47:55.019
viruses, right?

942
00:47:55.079 --> 00:47:59.099
So they come saying that they're offering an antivirus for the

943
00:47:59.099 --> 00:48:00.659
Indonesian flu.

944
00:48:00.719 --> 00:48:06.000
And here, somehow they're able to release a virus into the

945
00:48:06.000 --> 00:48:06.900
building.

946
00:48:06.900 --> 00:48:11.159
And I really love the fact that the MI5 building is kitted out

947
00:48:11.159 --> 00:48:15.420
with get smart doorways that kind of clatter closed vertically and

948
00:48:15.420 --> 00:48:16.199
horizontal.

949
00:48:16.739 --> 00:48:20.400
I mean, that scene is unbelievably great.

950
00:48:20.460 --> 00:48:23.219
Like Ben Foster absolutely goes to town.

951
00:48:23.280 --> 00:48:26.639
Like you get into cutting between what's happening with Jack and

952
00:48:26.639 --> 00:48:28.920
DeAnto and just the entire building.

953
00:48:28.980 --> 00:48:33.420
We, you know, the building, locking down people, people screaming

954
00:48:33.420 --> 00:48:36.179
you know, banging on the walls, like all of them.

955
00:48:36.239 --> 00:48:38.039
Some of them were not great, though, I have to say.

956
00:48:38.099 --> 00:48:41.820
Can I just say, like, they were not great.

957
00:48:42.719 --> 00:48:48.599
Euroslyn is not good at doing these big scenes with groups of

958
00:48:48.599 --> 00:48:49.980
people, right?

959
00:48:50.039 --> 00:48:51.300
Back in the day in Doctor Who.

960
00:48:51.360 --> 00:48:54.900
And even through this, when you have crowd groups, like I sit

961
00:48:54.900 --> 00:48:56.760
there going, I'm not condensed.

962
00:48:56.820 --> 00:49:00.780
Eros always casts swell, but I don't think he casts the extras.

963
00:49:01.260 --> 00:49:05.340
We did talk a little bit about his limitations.

964
00:49:05.400 --> 00:49:08.039
Like he is very good at things, I think, and he is one of Doctor

965
00:49:08.039 --> 00:49:11.400
Who's best directors, but this is a little bit more cinematic and

966
00:49:11.400 --> 00:49:13.619
that's not really his strong point, I think.

967
00:49:13.679 --> 00:49:18.300
Yeah, but I mean, you know, you've got Jack and Yanto both dying

968
00:49:18.300 --> 00:49:24.840
while it says, you will die, and tomorrow your people will deliver

969
00:49:24.840 --> 00:49:28.679
the children, and like, it's just a complete loss. isn't it?

970
00:49:28.739 --> 00:49:29.579
Is it?

971
00:49:29.639 --> 00:49:33.300
Because I sit there watching that scene with them dying and I'm

972
00:49:33.300 --> 00:49:35.880
dying inside watching their acting. embarrassing.

973
00:49:35.940 --> 00:49:38.519
What I thought was really embarrassing is when we come back to the

974
00:49:38.519 --> 00:49:41.880
Cobra office and all of those people have been watching that scene

975
00:49:41.880 --> 00:49:45.420
on telly and you must think, oh my god, what would they think?

976
00:49:45.480 --> 00:49:47.400
Prime Minister turned to Denise and said, it would have been

977
00:49:47.400 --> 00:49:47.940
better with Gwen.

978
00:49:49.739 --> 00:49:51.840
Barrowman, God.

979
00:49:52.739 --> 00:49:56.219
I was like, Again, is he dying again?

980
00:49:56.280 --> 00:49:57.179
Why can't he just stay dead?

981
00:49:57.239 --> 00:50:01.800
There is the very, very nice beat after it all happens where when

982
00:50:01.800 --> 00:50:02.940
he comes back to life.

983
00:50:03.000 --> 00:50:06.300
It's not with the massive gas he usually gives, it's underplayed.

984
00:50:06.360 --> 00:50:09.119
It's in fact really done really quite well, isn't it?

985
00:50:09.239 --> 00:50:13.559
After that sort of giant musical theatre death that he does, and

986
00:50:13.559 --> 00:50:17.460
then he just does that little breath in and you can actually kind

987
00:50:17.460 --> 00:50:19.860
of see him remembering what happened.

988
00:50:19.920 --> 00:50:23.880
You know, he wakes up and remembers that this was the thing that

989
00:50:23.880 --> 00:50:24.360
happened.

990
00:50:24.420 --> 00:50:27.539
But like you, I spent that entire scene just dying of

991
00:50:27.539 --> 00:50:28.199
embarrassment.

992
00:50:28.260 --> 00:50:32.280
But, you know, um, Eve Miles.

993
00:50:32.340 --> 00:50:34.139
It's just a hero.

994
00:50:34.199 --> 00:50:38.280
She sells the entire last sequence with Yanto and with Jack and

995
00:50:38.280 --> 00:50:40.860
you can see, well, I think I can see that she's over.

996
00:50:40.860 --> 00:50:42.119
Jack, oh, yeah, you're back.

997
00:50:42.179 --> 00:50:46.199
But just her distress at Yanto and her crying and she just is

998
00:50:46.199 --> 00:50:48.300
magnificent and that whole long.

999
00:50:48.360 --> 00:50:51.840
You know, I just can't praise her enough throughout this entire

1000
00:50:51.840 --> 00:50:52.860
production.

1001
00:50:52.920 --> 00:50:54.659
It's such a great scene, isn't it?

1002
00:50:54.719 --> 00:50:56.219
Because she's brought into the room.

1003
00:50:56.219 --> 00:50:59.099
The room has just bodies like dead bodies.

1004
00:50:59.159 --> 00:51:00.239
They're number 11 and 13.

1005
00:51:00.360 --> 00:51:01.500
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1006
00:51:01.559 --> 00:51:06.840
And she looks at Jack and she smiles because she she loves Jack

1007
00:51:06.840 --> 00:51:09.420
you know, and she knows that he's going to be okay.

1008
00:51:09.480 --> 00:51:13.079
And so she looks at him in a kind of sort of maternal, affectionate

1009
00:51:13.079 --> 00:51:13.380
way.

1010
00:51:13.440 --> 00:51:17.159
And then she turns to, and I can barely bear to say it.

1011
00:51:17.219 --> 00:51:20.940
She turns to Yanto and Yanto's face is gray.

1012
00:51:21.000 --> 00:51:25.800
He's not going to get better, and she just adjusts his tie, and

1013
00:51:25.800 --> 00:51:33.000
it's such a tender thing to do, and then you look at her and like

1014
00:51:33.000 --> 00:51:36.840
there's tears falling down her face, and she's so good.

1015
00:51:36.900 --> 00:51:38.940
Like, she's so tremendous.

1016
00:51:39.000 --> 00:51:43.139
And that's the moment, I think, where I became upset because, you

1017
00:51:43.139 --> 00:51:44.400
know, there's all that controversy.

1018
00:51:44.460 --> 00:51:45.360
Isn't there about this?

1019
00:51:45.420 --> 00:51:47.099
It's a bury your gaze thing.

1020
00:51:47.159 --> 00:51:50.699
You know, we have the gay couple and one of them has to die in the

1021
00:51:50.699 --> 00:51:51.179
episode.

1022
00:51:51.239 --> 00:51:56.340
And I just remember thinking, no, that's great.

1023
00:51:56.460 --> 00:51:58.019
Let's have that happen.

1024
00:51:58.079 --> 00:52:02.280
Like, let's have BBC One, you know, 1000000s of people tuning into

1025
00:52:02.280 --> 00:52:06.960
BBC One to see Jack Morning, his dead love, you know.

1026
00:52:07.019 --> 00:52:12.239
I know it's a terrible scene, but, you know, I will give Barriman

1027
00:52:12.239 --> 00:52:13.739
his due in that.

1028
00:52:13.800 --> 00:52:17.340
I don't think that the scene, where he answer dies, is very good.

1029
00:52:17.400 --> 00:52:19.440
But the scene where Jack wakes up afterwards.

1030
00:52:19.500 --> 00:52:22.559
What you were talking about earlier, he wakes up and that's that

1031
00:52:22.559 --> 00:52:26.460
thing where you've had a terrible loss in your life or something's

1032
00:52:26.460 --> 00:52:27.239
gone terribly wrong.

1033
00:52:27.300 --> 00:52:31.079
You've managed to sleep and you wake up and for that blissful 2

1034
00:52:31.079 --> 00:52:34.860
seconds, everything's okay before the memories flood back over

1035
00:52:34.860 --> 00:52:35.099
you.

1036
00:52:35.159 --> 00:52:36.659
I thought he sold that really well.

1037
00:52:36.719 --> 00:52:37.800
Yeah, it's really good.

1038
00:52:37.860 --> 00:52:38.880
I will agree with you.

1039
00:52:38.940 --> 00:52:44.280
Like he can do reactions really well, but it's selling dialogue in

1040
00:52:44.280 --> 00:52:47.039
the moment that he just has some limitations.

1041
00:52:47.099 --> 00:52:49.920
Clem's dying at the same time, isn't it?

1042
00:52:50.039 --> 00:52:54.780
And again, Eve absolutely sells that.

1043
00:52:54.840 --> 00:52:57.300
I mean, I'm over the character of Clem by this point.

1044
00:52:57.360 --> 00:53:00.780
I know he's been through a lot, but all of his crying and all that

1045
00:53:00.780 --> 00:53:03.539
by the time this episode I'm just ready to get rid of him.

1046
00:53:03.599 --> 00:53:07.679
A good actor like he was in Downton Abbey in the future.

1047
00:53:07.739 --> 00:53:09.480
But, you know, yeah.

1048
00:53:09.539 --> 00:53:13.800
Yeah, I like, I also thought that that was a kind of very sort of

1049
00:53:13.800 --> 00:53:17.039
Eric Sayward moment of getting rid of him, so we don't have to

1050
00:53:17.039 --> 00:53:22.079
have him in episode five, but, of course, spoilers tomorrow

1051
00:53:22.079 --> 00:53:26.519
night's episode is solved because we learn about the link between

1052
00:53:26.519 --> 00:53:30.000
him and the 456 and they even refer to him, don't they, as the

1053
00:53:30.000 --> 00:53:30.539
remnant.

1054
00:53:30.599 --> 00:53:32.940
That's right I do have a question.

1055
00:53:33.000 --> 00:53:35.880
That old scientist guy that keeps coming into it whose name, I

1056
00:53:35.880 --> 00:53:37.559
forget, Decker. right?

1057
00:53:37.619 --> 00:53:39.780
Like all the gases in the building or whatever.

1058
00:53:39.840 --> 00:53:42.840
But he's still an anxious to get into a suit. and survive to the

1059
00:53:42.840 --> 00:53:44.880
next episode, whereas I thought he was collapsing when he got into

1060
00:53:44.880 --> 00:53:45.360
that suit.

1061
00:53:45.360 --> 00:53:45.960
Am I wrong?

1062
00:53:46.019 --> 00:53:48.480
Yeah, I wonder why they do that.

1063
00:53:48.539 --> 00:53:52.079
I wonder why they do that because Yanto just says, no, I've

1064
00:53:52.079 --> 00:53:54.900
breathed the air. die, you know, like there's nothing that can be

1065
00:53:54.900 --> 00:53:55.139
done.

1066
00:53:55.199 --> 00:54:00.659
Decker gets into a kind of hazmat suit, like that red kind of bio

1067
00:54:00.659 --> 00:54:02.039
suit thing.

1068
00:54:02.099 --> 00:54:05.639
And I'm wondering why they do that. like why they have him in the

1069
00:54:05.639 --> 00:54:06.239
room at all.

1070
00:54:06.300 --> 00:54:12.539
And I wonder whether there's a line in an earlier episode where he

1071
00:54:12.539 --> 00:54:16.800
refers to himself and Frobisher is cockroaches, that they are

1072
00:54:16.800 --> 00:54:21.659
people who've survived for decades, and their civil servants will

1073
00:54:21.659 --> 00:54:24.059
be here long after the politicians are gone.

1074
00:54:24.119 --> 00:54:25.739
We were here long before they got there.

1075
00:54:25.800 --> 00:54:30.599
And I just wonder whether that's what that's trying to sell.

1076
00:54:30.659 --> 00:54:34.139
He is going to have an important role in tomorrow night's episode

1077
00:54:34.139 --> 00:54:38.820
and I guess that that was why he's there because I was wondering

1078
00:54:38.820 --> 00:54:41.159
because it does stretch plausibility, I think.

1079
00:54:41.219 --> 00:54:42.360
That's what I was saying.

1080
00:54:42.420 --> 00:54:44.219
Like, I just kind of thought, well, he's briefed in the air

1081
00:54:44.280 --> 00:54:45.360
shouldn't he be dead like everybody else?

1082
00:54:45.900 --> 00:54:48.599
slightly confusing in the direction because when you have, you

1083
00:54:48.599 --> 00:54:51.480
think, is he collapsing inside the suit or is it just relief

1084
00:54:51.480 --> 00:54:53.519
that's inside the suit on his face?

1085
00:54:53.579 --> 00:54:55.739
But I think that that's why they do it.

1086
00:54:55.800 --> 00:54:59.219
I think there's a reason, a clear reason why they choose to

1087
00:54:59.219 --> 00:55:02.639
include him there rather than just not have him in the building.

1088
00:55:02.699 --> 00:55:06.300
I think it is trying to make character point about him being a

1089
00:55:06.300 --> 00:55:06.599
survivor.

1090
00:55:06.659 --> 00:55:08.400
Yeah, I wondered the same thing.

1091
00:55:08.460 --> 00:55:11.699
You know, despite my earlier misgivings about, you know, just

1092
00:55:11.699 --> 00:55:15.300
returning to the trolly problem and the fact that I don't think

1093
00:55:15.300 --> 00:55:19.139
the story in general holds up in a post-COVID world.

1094
00:55:19.199 --> 00:55:21.659
I don't think the structural logic of it holds up.

1095
00:55:21.719 --> 00:55:22.320
It is good.

1096
00:55:22.380 --> 00:55:27.780
It is good drama, and we have good people like Peter Capaldi and

1097
00:55:27.780 --> 00:55:31.019
absolutely Eve Miles, I'm doing their best in it.

1098
00:55:31.079 --> 00:55:38.280
And so I think by some stretch, it, by some way, it is the best

1099
00:55:38.280 --> 00:55:39.360
Doctor Who spinoff.

1100
00:55:39.420 --> 00:55:43.199
Yeah, there's a sense in which I thought for a while, and I may

1101
00:55:43.199 --> 00:55:45.960
have said this before, that for a while, I thought this was the

1102
00:55:45.960 --> 00:55:51.539
best thing in the RTD one era.

1103
00:55:51.599 --> 00:55:54.900
And I don't think that now, because I love Doctor Who, and I love

1104
00:55:54.900 --> 00:56:00.179
the lighter, more family-friendly tone that it usually takes, this

1105
00:56:00.179 --> 00:56:01.860
is a bit bleak for me generally.

1106
00:56:01.920 --> 00:56:08.820
But this is Russell's closest attempt to do something like like

1107
00:56:08.820 --> 00:56:11.760
season 7 or years and years.

1108
00:56:11.820 --> 00:56:15.059
Yeah, or years and years, but something that's longer, like we get

1109
00:56:15.059 --> 00:56:18.960
we get a big regular cast, we get lots of interesting characters

1110
00:56:18.960 --> 00:56:20.400
played by incredible actors.

1111
00:56:20.460 --> 00:56:23.820
We get a complicated story with a lot happening.

1112
00:56:23.880 --> 00:56:26.280
There's no marking time or anything like that.

1113
00:56:26.340 --> 00:56:29.340
Everything goes at quite a pace.

1114
00:56:29.400 --> 00:56:31.019
It's got a huge scale.

1115
00:56:31.079 --> 00:56:35.760
You know, it's like the Silurians, I think only longer and a bit

1116
00:56:35.760 --> 00:56:36.059
better.

1117
00:56:36.119 --> 00:56:38.219
All that green sort of froth.

1118
00:56:38.219 --> 00:56:39.719
We're going done with a prime ward.

1119
00:57:04.860 --> 00:57:07.980
Well, that's all the time we had for this week.

1120
00:57:08.039 --> 00:57:11.400
We'll be back next week to watch everyone get a well deserved

1121
00:57:11.400 --> 00:57:15.420
happy ending in Torchwood, Children of Earth, day five.

1122
00:57:15.900 --> 00:57:20.159
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts

1123
00:57:20.159 --> 00:57:24.179
and you can keep up with us on our website, 500yearDiary.com, where

1124
00:57:24.179 --> 00:57:27.599
you'll find our social media links, as well as links to all of our

1125
00:57:27.599 --> 00:57:32.219
other podcasts, including the entirety of flight through entirety

1126
00:57:32.219 --> 00:57:36.480
which comprises every episode of our 4 Doctor Who podcasts.

1127
00:57:37.260 --> 00:57:41.400
Until next time, remember that when a child is being terribly

1128
00:57:41.400 --> 00:57:45.780
annoying, a simple but effective technique is to ask them politely

1129
00:57:45.780 --> 00:57:46.980
to leave the room.

1130
00:57:47.099 --> 00:57:49.800
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

1131
00:57:49.860 --> 00:57:51.420
Good night.

1132
00:57:51.480 --> 00:57:52.019
Good night.

1133
00:57:52.079 --> 00:57:52.920
See you soon.

1134
00:58:04.980 --> 00:58:08.639
That was 500 year diary, starring Todd Bealby, Nathan Bottomley

1135
00:58:08.639 --> 00:58:10.619
Peter Griffiths, and Fiona Tomney.

1136
00:58:10.679 --> 00:58:12.539
The theme was composed by Cameron Lamb.

1137
00:58:12.599 --> 00:58:16.019
This episode, The War between the Land and Denise, was recorded on

1138
00:58:16.019 --> 00:58:19.380
the 15th of March, 2026, and released on the 5th of April.

1139
00:58:19.980 --> 00:58:24.300
Here at FDE, we're so impressed with the adorable puppet murker

1140
00:58:24.300 --> 00:58:27.599
from the season 21 box set that we're starting a campaign to

1141
00:58:27.599 --> 00:58:30.960
include it in every story in the season 16 box set.

1142
00:58:31.019 --> 00:58:34.260
To show your support, post on your favourite social media network

1143
00:58:34.260 --> 00:58:37.139
with the hashtag, The Planet Tara needs a merker.

1144
00:58:37.199 --> 00:58:40.320
Next time, Count Grendel shall not be so delicious.

1145
00:58:49.380 --> 00:58:53.940
So he could have done it, and done it differently and just go, well

1146
00:58:53.940 --> 00:58:57.239
we're just going to get torchwood to help them deal with 456 and

1147
00:58:57.239 --> 00:59:00.900
just cut it back to 2 episodes and not have them having to try and

1148
00:59:00.900 --> 00:59:01.440
take him out.

1149
00:59:01.500 --> 00:59:02.219
Do you know what I mean?

1150
00:59:02.280 --> 00:59:02.699
Yeah.

1151
00:59:02.699 --> 00:59:03.000
Yeah.

1152
00:59:03.059 --> 00:59:06.480
But I do like that because there's some great, you know, like them

1153
00:59:06.480 --> 00:59:09.960
being chased by people and stuff like that, the destruction of

1154
00:59:09.960 --> 00:59:11.460
torch, but all that stuff's so great.

1155
00:59:11.579 --> 00:59:12.360
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1156
00:59:12.420 --> 00:59:14.099
I'm just saying, like, you know, you could have got just a 2

1157
00:59:14.099 --> 00:59:14.519
part.

1158
00:59:14.579 --> 00:59:17.219
Yeah, yeah, yeah. where, you know, we've got a structure here

1159
00:59:17.219 --> 00:59:18.179
that's going to work for five.

1160
00:59:18.239 --> 00:59:21.900
I mean, I think I said before about what idiot Barrowman is

1161
00:59:21.900 --> 00:59:25.500
because he complains that we're being demoted, where it's like

1162
00:59:25.500 --> 00:59:30.659
instead, no, we're getting 5 consecutive nights on BBC one, that

1163
00:59:30.659 --> 00:59:32.280
people are actually going to watch.

1164
00:59:32.340 --> 00:59:35.519
And the highest rating the show ever got.

1165
00:59:35.579 --> 00:59:36.360
Yeah, that's right.

1166
00:59:36.420 --> 00:59:40.199
And it's incredibly good for a change as well. you know.

1167
00:59:40.440 --> 00:59:45.059
Maybe he was just cheesed off at, you know, Capaldi and miles with

1168
00:59:45.059 --> 00:59:45.360
her.

1169
00:59:45.360 --> 00:59:46.380
Yeah, the star.

1170
00:59:47.039 --> 00:59:49.860
I mean, that's something to get your dick out over.

1171
00:59:54.840 --> 00:59:56.340
You're cancelled as well now.

1172
00:59:57.900 --> 00:59:59.760
Long before time.

1173
00:59:59.820 --> 01:00:01.619
I reckon that's it.

1174
01:00:01.679 --> 01:00:02.159
What do you think?

1175
01:00:02.219 --> 01:00:02.940
I thought that was really good.

1176
01:00:03.840 --> 01:00:06.420
Yeah, I don't think there's anything.

1177
01:00:06.480 --> 01:00:08.699
Do you have any closing remarks, Fiona?

1178
01:00:08.760 --> 01:00:10.320
Oh, not really.

1179
01:00:10.380 --> 01:00:14.099
Just, um, next time, make sure you do invite me for invasion of

1180
01:00:14.099 --> 01:00:15.659
the fluffy bunnies kind of thing.