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This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 09:18:06

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to 500 year diary, the only Doctor Who podcast that's 24% nitrousyl chloride, 21% hydrogen chloride, 19% nitrogen, 11% fluorine, 8% hydrogen cyanide, 6% acetone, 6% phos gene, and 5% love.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Johnny.

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I'm Melvin.

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And I'm Simon.

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It's Tuesday, the 7th of July, 2009.

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It's been just 23 hours since the 456 announced their return, and tonight about 6000000 people have tuned in to watch the preparations.

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So let's see how things go as we discuss Torchwood, children of Earth, day two.

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So, I'm gonna talk about the reprise.

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I'm gonna talk about the reprise.

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Whoever cut the reprise together did a brilliant job because all the way through the reprise.

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We get the children saying, we are coming, we are coming, even when there's other dialogue happening, where there's other scenes, we don't see the children.

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And that was essentially the thing that you needed to sell to capture that 1st episode.

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It's so cleverly done.

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Yeah, so I went to a rewatch episode one, day one, we should be calling it, shouldn't we?

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I went to rewatch day one.

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I haven't watched these episodes since they 1st went out.

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Then I realised I hadn't watched any of Torchwood since it last went out, and that got me thinking about why I haven't chosen to revisit it, but I was glad to watch day one before day 2 because it, you know, in a 5 episode thing, you've got to kind of watch every bit of it.

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It's got to set it up nicely.

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There's not much time to waste.

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And day one strike me is not that far away from Doctor Who of the time.

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It had that kind of uh, jaunty feel about it.

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And my memory of children of earth was that it was really, really dark.

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But I think in these earlier episodes, it's like it's graduating to that place.

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You know, it's it's getting a little bit darker each each episode.

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Yeah, me too.

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I didn't, I haven't watched this since it was on.

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I haven't watched any Torchwood since it was on, and why haven't I gone back to it?

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I never really thought it was very good.

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I thought there was some good bits to it, but broadly speaking, I thought it didn't quite reach whatever potential it might have had.

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But I do remember when children of Earth came along that we all thought, wow, we finally got somewhere.

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We finally watching something, which is reaching a potential, the potential that it had.

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And I think, yes, it is darker.

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It's still got a jauntiness to it.

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Like there's lots of jokes, particularly with kind of, you know, some basically comedy relief characters that are kind of thrown in, usually with Welsh accents to add to the comedy, but it's so, um, I think one of the reasons why this is much more successful than the seasons that came before it is because there's this wonderful build of mystery of what's happening.

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We don't know what's going on and you're drip fed certain information.

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You've got a few well-placed red herrings.

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And so by the time you get to day 2 of it, Even though not a huge amount happens, I suppose, plot wise.

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You're still getting drip fed more bits of information, which really make it very, very engaging and very, very gripping.

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Despite John Barriman, barely being in it.

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But we can talk about that later.

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Well, this is the thing.

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Much like Johnny and Simon, I also have not seen Torchwood TV Torchwood in quite a while.

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I've listened to quite a few torchwood audios, and one of the things about Torchwood is actually not dissimilar to what you could say about some of the Star Trek series that, you know, as they go along, they build, you build the cast, you build relationships with them.

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And I feel like this is the season where it bears its most fruit.

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And, and oddly, like in, in, in the afterlife of Torchwood, it's become even more.

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I think torchwood, if that makes any sense, through the big finish audios, which are actually going to wrap up.

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I think the very last one ever comes out in a month or 2 from now.

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But of course, Torchwood also has a really fraught legacy because of John Barrowman.

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And so one of the things that I, rewatching this series that I came to terms with, or came to grips with is the extent to which children of Earth, and especially, especially day two, especially the one we're looking at today, is proof of concept for how Torchwood.

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I don't know if the word is exists or excels or becomes what it's supposed to be, without Barrowman.

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If that makes any sense, like this is proof of concept for everything Torchwood became afterwards.

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I mean, and accepting Miracle Day.

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I mean, it very definitely starts off or maybe day one ends with the destruction of torchwood in all sorts of ways.

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So with the destruction of the hub, which Gwen describes as a science fiction superbase in Italian one, the level of realism suddenly increases.

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You know, we don't have a big space with a pterodactyl in it, which was always great, but not really a great fit for something that is aiming at being adult.

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You know, in a way, it is just a sort of slightly dressed up version of Doctor Who.

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You've still got a big, weird set.

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You have an immortal time traveller.

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All of those sort of heightened performances. heightened performances.

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All of that.

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And that starts to go away here.

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And the other thing it does too, is it turns Jack's ability to cheat death into something much, much more horrific and terrifying than it had been before.

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And, like, I know he's been sort of buried for a century or something towards the end of series 2 and I only know that because I looked it up on TARDIS Wikia, not because I revisited Torchwood, particularly.

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But this thing where he's just regenerated.

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I think I joked before I rewatched it that he'd regenerated from a single buttock.

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But he regenerates from sort of a head and an arm and a bitch.

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But in a way that's gruesome and terrifying.

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And obviously painful.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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But it's also shot like a horror film.

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You know, the thing where the body bag starts inflating and Johnson and that guy are watching it over the CCTV and then they come in and then he's like a skeleton and stuff.

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Like it makes him horrifying and and yeah, like he screams.

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It's not his usual, that terrible thing that he decides to do, presumably for the 1st time in parting of the ways when he does that.

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You know, I'm alive again, which is just dreadful and then he has to do it over and over again.

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Whereas this time when he wakes up, he's just screaming in pain.

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Like it, so even that conceit, which is a very silly kind of science fiction, high concept, conceit becomes a source of fear and horror and has kind of reinterpreted in a more kind of grown up way, I think.

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Yeah, I think, I mean, I said this at the time when Torchwood was going out that the problem with those 1st 2 seasons and I think that they make the mistake elsewhere is when they think doing adult, or when I say adults, I mean, you know, mature, something's supposed to be a mature drama for adults to watch.

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It's just nothing like it should be because it's just Doctor Who, but with people being a bit nasty to each other and a bit of sex involved.

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Whereas it just comes across to me is like it was being written by like a sort of a spotty 14 year old who thinks that they're grown up, but they're actually not.

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Whereas this, you're right, it does start to feel like, yes, this is actually a drama that's designed for someone of my age to watch.

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Well, you said, Simon, at the very start that not a lot happens in episode one, but what does happen, and Nathan, you were pointing it out during the reprise, is the children all talking in unison, and one of the things that is for sure adult or mature about torturewood children of earth, is that the stakes and what's going on is it's real in a way that it never has been before.

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That the children are under, like the children of Earth, as it were, are under threat, are are in peril. or being used, yes, yeah.

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Yeah, and so that's the thing is, like, this is something that Doctor Who sort of can't do and hasn't done, like, that there's something that there's something really horrible about reaching into, like, literally what, uh, Mrs. Frobisher says, I think, here in episode two.

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This is in my home.

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These are my children.

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Like, that is what is real.

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That is that is mature science fiction plotting.

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I think that's it.

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And I think the real adult concern here is children, right?

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And like when we were watching this as young people, you know, when we were watching this when we were much younger, um, it's hard to get.

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So I talked about adults when we were watching it now.

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We were, but we were younger.

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Yes, but we were still quite old.

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But in any case, shut up.

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In any case, I said this last week that there are Doctor Who fans who don't like seeing children in Doctor Who.

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But one of the reasons that I do like it. who you're talking about.

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See also space babies.

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I do like it is because having children is a particular adult concern.

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And I said this last week, I have never, I don't have children.

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I have never had to look after a child or been responsible for a child.

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I've never loved a child, like in the way that a parent loves their children.

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I've never had that experience.

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And I think that children of earth hits harder for people who have is my understanding of it as well.

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That the real adult concern here isn't sex, gas, or yeah, picking people up at nightclubs and stuff.

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It's being apparent.

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It's being responsible for children and worried about children.

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That's a proper adult concern.

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And so this is, I think, for that reason, more adult than Torchwood has been.

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I think the reason people don't like children, Doctor Who, is when the children are lead characters as opposed to ancillary characters.

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And they're not characters.

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They're not characters here.

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They're just, you know...

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I think that you're right.

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The, the, the threat to the children is something which makes this feel more, um, adds weight to it.

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So it does make you feel like this is more of an adult drama that you're watching.

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But I think there's a couple of other things which make this just better drama than the monster of the week format that Torchwood had been for the last couple of years.

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And there's, it's that the 2 main threats.

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One that the government is is conspiring against tortured, and 2 that the 456 are coming, both feel inevitable and it makes you feel powerless.

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And they're very, they're very, in a funny kind of way, they're very adult things to be frightened of.

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You're meant to be in control of your world.

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And yet here are 2 things.

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They're the 2 main potlines in day two.

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That you feel trapped in, you feel powerless in.

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You can't do anything about this.

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And so that's, for me, what makes it more, say, a more satisfying piece of drama than, say, cyberwoman.

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What a fascinating example.

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It's also it's this interesting thing about tortured about how quickly it develops over 4 seasons.

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So it goes from BBC 3 to BBC 2.

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This is its 1st on BBC One.

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It changes format in a way that Doctor Who has never changed format until maybe flux.

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You know, it, it, it adopts a form which is actually much closer to what we watch on streaming services now.

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It feels, you know, the direction feels of its time, the design feels of its time, the performance feels full time.

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Its format feels like something you might watch on Netflix.

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And then it moves to the US.

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Again, something Doctor Who never did.

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And it burns out so quickly that it's hard actually to watch Torchwood and not think where in its trajectory is it.

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Because it's, it's gone from, it's gone from conception to burn out over 4 seasons so quickly.

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This is the most successful part of Torture, I think.

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My understanding is that stars had wanted to do maybe 2 more seasons after Miracle Day, and that the reason it didn't happen is that Russell had to go back to the UK to look after his husband, who was...

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But they had both moved over like Julian Russell.

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Oh, wow. they were shooting it over there.

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So I don't think Miracle Day was a success.

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I think the season was too long.

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It had some great moments in it.

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There's one particularly good episode or 2 particularly good episodes.

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There's one incredible moment that I'll never forget at the end of the categories of life, which is just an astounding, like a just a devastating moment that I think surpasses what happens at the end of episode 4 here.

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So there are good things in it, but it's too long and too kind of formless and I was losing patience by the end of it, I think.

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Before we leave off children, though, like, yes, the children are under threat is one of the storylines, and you were saying, Nathan, like, never having, uh, had a child either, hashtag child free, uh, there's there's more happening here.

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Then, and again, we were talking about when we watched this when we were younger.

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Well, I mean, we've gone through quite a bit in the last 20, almost 20 years or, you know, 15 to 16 years since, since children of Earth, and a lot of it having to do with children.

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Like there are other things in this episode that are brought out throughout children of Earth.

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Like you hear Johnny, uh, Ianto's, I can't remember Ianto's sister's name, uh, but her Rhiannon.

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But so Rhiannon's husband, Johnny, when he gets the lads to go shake the police car so that she can escape to get onto his computer.

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When they're shaking the car, they're calling the guys in the car pedos.

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Yeah.

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And so, I mean, this is a lot of what happens in children of Earth that regards children also, they do mention in episode 3 when they're trying to figure out who, you know, a portion which children are going, is, Can we get people from refugee camps?

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So, I mean, there, there, there's so much to do with children's welfare that has nothing to do with whether or not we're a parent, but whether we can, you know, connect to the helplessness of children in, in, in underprivileged, uh, uh, disparate, uh, diasporic backgrounds.

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Like there's a lot to do with children that is bubbling under the surface here that has nothing to do with alien invasions.

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So I think that that is also part of the depth of this of this as a drama.

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It was impossible, I think, to watch the later episodes where soldiers are coming in to take people's children away in episode five.

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Uh, we, uh, like I'm watching Starfleet Academy and the original sin of Starfleet Academy is where Holly Hunter's character separates the main character from his mother, you know, in the 1st episode.

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And that's like a signature thing in like both Trump era, you know, people losing contact with their parents and in particular.

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So, so, so that's where we're going to go with this.

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There is the politics of it's the poor people's children that we're going to be feeding to the 452 and no one around this table is going to be affected.

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You know, they explicitly say that.

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Like, that's really quite, quite brutal, like unbelievably brutal.

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And so this is free, I think, to be more political and more angry than Doctor Who ever has to be.

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You know, aliens of London is cross and angry.

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I think, you know, season three. master thing.

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The tone is try today, by comparison.

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Well, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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That makes it a gag rather than a comment, a proper comment.

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Oh, no, no.

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I think there's something about doing that in a children's program.

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Do you know what I mean?

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Like the family, please.

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Yeah, yeah, family show.

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But like doing angry politics in a family show.

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You know, like...

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Again, we talked about how, how, how, there's only so much you can, you can sort of take it.

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Look, I think that, and that's one of the things that I think makes this show feel more like it is a grown-up show is what I found as well is all the kind of the workings of the politics in the, well, the government in the, I mean, Peter Capaldi's office.

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You know, it's all cramped.

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There's not enough space for all the people who are working there.

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There's constant phone calls going in and out. people sort of rushing around.

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And for me, that all feels much better than what we get with War Between, for instance, which is all kind of this very heightened sort of somewhat ridiculous way that everything seems to be working.

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I think it's let down by the fact that the Prime Minister is a bit too Machiavelli, and I think it would have been more interesting if when Capaldi approaches him to say what's happening in the 1st sequence, which is likely in the 1st episode.

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The Prime Minister actually knows absolutely nothing about it.

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It's, and that would be kind of like a deep state thing.

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Like, this is the sort of thing that's been going on for 40 odd years or whatever it's supposed to have been at the time.

191
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And, you know, you've actually been approving this, but you don't know you have, and that would have actually been a much more interesting take, I think.

192
00:18:22.859 --> 00:18:30.420
And the only other thing that doesn't work for me there is the fact that the Prime Minister doesn't seem to have any staff of his own, which is...

193
00:18:30.480 --> 00:18:33.000
They're outside, but they don't even a company in.

194
00:18:33.059 --> 00:18:43.920
That is actually an odd moment in it that's kind of stuck out for me where Capaldi goes kind of kind of forelock tugging to the Prime Minister and say, thank you for putting me in this position.

195
00:18:43.980 --> 00:18:44.759
Thank you for doing that.

196
00:18:44.819 --> 00:18:48.119
The Primaster would not have done it with me, but...

197
00:18:48.119 --> 00:18:49.019
I don't think...

198
00:18:49.019 --> 00:18:52.079
He didn't strike me as a way that colleagues would talk to each other.

199
00:18:52.140 --> 00:18:53.700
And also, it didn't strike me.

200
00:18:53.880 --> 00:19:04.980
Capaldi is fantastic. best thing in these episodes. and he's adding so much and so many different nuances to everything that he's doing.

201
00:19:05.039 --> 00:19:13.319
But gratefulness for being put in the position was not one of those things I thought he was expressing through the rest of the episode.

202
00:19:13.380 --> 00:19:28.200
What comes out of that forelock tugging, though, is that the Prime Minister lays his cards on the table in episode two, which makes what happens for the rest of the series easier to understand from a viewer's point of view, because he's like, you're, you know, he, Capelli says, I'm basically a middleman.

203
00:19:28.319 --> 00:19:30.839
Thank you for giving me the responsibilities. like, I put you on the front line.

204
00:19:30.900 --> 00:19:32.819
The front line is the 1st to fall.

205
00:19:32.940 --> 00:19:34.740
Like, he says it.

206
00:19:34.799 --> 00:19:35.579
He says it out loud.

207
00:19:35.640 --> 00:19:44.640
And so both of the major sort of plot resolution moments in episode 5 are anticipated in episode one and two.

208
00:19:44.700 --> 00:19:55.500
So you get Alice telling Jack that he's dangerous and that he's not permitted to experiment on Stephen, and this is why she has told him to stay away.

209
00:19:55.559 --> 00:20:01.980
And then you get the prime minister saying, you are here to be sacrificed so that I don't suffer.

210
00:20:02.039 --> 00:20:03.660
And like he makes that clear.

211
00:20:03.720 --> 00:20:11.220
And so there's a level of unreality around the scene with the Prime Minister, who I think is great, by the way. think the performance is good.

212
00:20:11.279 --> 00:20:12.299
I just think of the characterisation.

213
00:20:12.359 --> 00:20:18.359
I think Russell obviously hates the Prime Minister of kills him in every season.

214
00:20:18.420 --> 00:20:20.099
Yeah, he hates but also.

215
00:20:20.160 --> 00:20:27.059
But basically, obviously, he obviously has very little regard for any political leader, of any stripe, of any anything.

216
00:20:27.119 --> 00:20:30.420
He thinks they're all corrupt factors, which is which is okay.

217
00:20:30.480 --> 00:20:38.519
He can believe that, but I think if you're trying to present a what is supposed to be an adult drama, that's where it leans into comic book.

218
00:20:38.579 --> 00:20:40.500
Whereas the way Capaldi is doing it.

219
00:20:40.559 --> 00:20:44.819
He's doing it in a way of like, and the older assistant whose name escapes me.

220
00:20:44.880 --> 00:20:45.359
Bridget.

221
00:20:45.359 --> 00:20:45.779
Yeah.

222
00:20:45.839 --> 00:20:48.119
Oh, that's right, with the capital H password.

223
00:20:48.180 --> 00:20:49.680
They all kind of hate what they're doing.

224
00:20:49.740 --> 00:20:57.240
But they need to do it and it's that kind of internal conflict, which is so much more interesting than watching the way the Prime Minister is betrayed.

225
00:20:57.299 --> 00:20:58.859
Can I just say, but that moment?

226
00:20:58.920 --> 00:21:02.640
That's the only moment for me where this episode doesn't work.

227
00:21:02.700 --> 00:21:06.539
It's actually a really good story, I think, by John Faye.

228
00:21:06.599 --> 00:21:11.579
And the fact that it is a call, a call forward to things which are going to happen, it's a bit inelegant.

229
00:21:11.640 --> 00:21:14.460
That's really not what happens in the rest of this episode.

230
00:21:14.519 --> 00:21:17.700
Like, it starts with, it starts with them separated.

231
00:21:17.759 --> 00:21:19.440
It ends with them together.

232
00:21:19.500 --> 00:21:22.200
You go through both plot strands.

233
00:21:22.259 --> 00:21:25.859
You don't really feel the loss of Barriman throughout the whole thing.

234
00:21:25.920 --> 00:21:27.480
There's plot everywhere.

235
00:21:27.539 --> 00:21:36.359
In fact, it reminded me, it reminded me of Terry Nations writing, incident after incident after incident, just to keep him watching the whole way through.

236
00:21:36.420 --> 00:21:39.299
Like, I think someone said not much happened in day one.

237
00:21:39.359 --> 00:21:49.680
Actually, I think in a 5 episode arc like this, roughly 20% of the plot happens in each episode, and I think that there's so much going on.

238
00:21:49.740 --> 00:21:50.460
Yeah.

239
00:21:50.460 --> 00:21:57.960
So I just wanted to say that just because I pulled out that one little dud moment, I just wanted to redress that by going, actually, I think the rest of it's brilliant.

240
00:21:58.079 --> 00:22:06.180
No, but that's why I kind of wanted to reinforce that East because I think it's, it's, I think, in some respects, it's Russell showing his blind spot, his, his, his own.

241
00:22:06.539 --> 00:22:12.900
It's a blind spot of his that that means that for me, I'm suddenly taken out of, oh, this is actually really good.

242
00:22:12.900 --> 00:22:15.779
And now suddenly it's just like, you know, some of the other crap he does.

243
00:22:15.839 --> 00:22:21.720
Whereas the, it was actually me who said that there wasn't much that happened and I didn't mean episode one.

244
00:22:21.779 --> 00:22:25.019
If I said it, I meant episode two, day two, not a lot happens.

245
00:22:25.079 --> 00:22:28.200
And when I say not a lot, I don't mean there's not a lot of incident.

246
00:22:28.259 --> 00:22:34.980
I just mean that there's not as much development, movement of the plot, and I didn't mean that as a negative.

247
00:22:35.039 --> 00:22:38.640
I was just, it was an observation that, that it continues.

248
00:22:38.700 --> 00:22:49.259
No, no, I know what you mean because actually the 3 main characters are kept away from the main action and that's kind of the that's kind of the whole point of episode two, isn't it?

249
00:22:49.319 --> 00:22:55.259
They're deliberately taken out of making things happen so that other things can happen and then they can kind of return to it.

250
00:22:55.380 --> 00:22:58.200
Because we're building a tank for the rills to arrive.

251
00:22:58.259 --> 00:23:00.180
Yes, yes.

252
00:23:00.180 --> 00:23:07.920
A tank which for some reason, when they get the instructions, they have no idea what it is, then they're building and then it ends up being a glass tank that they have to put some gas into.

253
00:23:07.980 --> 00:23:10.799
So that was a, that could have been worked a little bit better.

254
00:23:10.859 --> 00:23:18.539
I think there must be some, there is some classic golden era science fiction thing where I think instructions get sent to for building something.

255
00:23:18.720 --> 00:23:19.380
Yes, it's contact.

256
00:23:19.440 --> 00:23:20.579
It's Carl Sagan's contact.

257
00:23:20.640 --> 00:23:21.240
Yes, yes.

258
00:23:21.299 --> 00:23:24.299
So, and look, I'm not saying he stole it.

259
00:23:24.359 --> 00:23:26.160
It is Doctor Who, though.

260
00:23:26.279 --> 00:23:27.000
Exactly.

261
00:23:27.059 --> 00:23:34.559
It's whether it's stolen or a prestige or he did it without realising where he'd seen that idea before. doesn't matter. mean, these things happen all the time.

262
00:23:34.619 --> 00:23:41.160
But in contact, the difference is that you, yeah, they're building this thing and you really do.

263
00:23:41.220 --> 00:23:42.900
They have no idea how this even works.

264
00:23:42.960 --> 00:23:52.619
But they, but when they put tabet into slot B, it all magically does this thing which sends JD Foster off to the other end of the universe, whatever, yes, brilliant.

265
00:23:52.680 --> 00:23:53.099
Have you not seen it?

266
00:23:53.339 --> 00:23:54.420
Oh, it's oh my gosh.

267
00:23:54.480 --> 00:23:55.680
It's brilliant, brilliant.

268
00:23:55.740 --> 00:24:03.000
But the great thing is, they don't know how it works, whereas in this building, this tank, it's like, well, I think you could have worked out from the blueprints what this was going to be, you know.

269
00:24:03.059 --> 00:24:08.819
And the other major difference between contact and this is that, you know, we've been talking about adult drama and RTD.

270
00:24:08.880 --> 00:24:14.039
For me, this is both RTD at his bleakest and most nihilistic.

271
00:24:14.099 --> 00:24:16.140
You know, from episode one to episode five.

272
00:24:16.200 --> 00:24:20.940
This is, this is actually sort of more than what I assumed RTD 2 was going to be like.

273
00:24:21.000 --> 00:24:23.819
And I was a little bit surprised that it wasn't.

274
00:24:23.880 --> 00:24:26.940
Neither here nor there, both here and there is that I hoped, yeah.

275
00:24:27.000 --> 00:24:32.519
Um, and and again, like maybe this was in the back of my mind, but it's been 15 plus years since I've seen this.

276
00:24:32.579 --> 00:24:36.779
Well, probably turned left is the start of Russell C.

277
00:24:36.779 --> 00:24:39.960
Davies' interest in apocalyptic scenario.

278
00:24:40.019 --> 00:24:48.180
So it's kind of, it's RTD noir or something, but you pick it up and it goes to years and years and it goes to go through all of those sort of things.

279
00:24:48.240 --> 00:24:54.779
And I think that actually, actually, I think it's a well he returns to a little too often, to be honest.

280
00:24:54.839 --> 00:25:02.940
I do think he is very bleak and cynical and even his early stuff, the stuff like queer as folk with the, you know, the death of Phil.

281
00:25:03.000 --> 00:25:07.440
Um, and uh, and cucumber.

282
00:25:07.440 --> 00:25:12.119
And cucumber, far out cucumber episode six. is also extremely cool.

283
00:25:12.420 --> 00:25:12.660
Yeah.

284
00:25:12.720 --> 00:25:13.200
Yeah.

285
00:25:13.259 --> 00:25:17.819
So he is very bleak, and in fact, you know, his Doctor Who is surprisingly not that.

286
00:25:17.819 --> 00:25:33.240
And the moments, like in midnight, sort of in aliens of London, certainly in turn left, which I think is as dark as he allows himself to go in the parent show, like he's aware that this is a family show for kids, and so that's not kind of what it's about.

287
00:25:33.480 --> 00:25:35.160
But yeah.

288
00:25:35.220 --> 00:25:43.799
And I think he course corrected an RTD too, because I think it's much more hopeful and optimistic, which is one thing, like, I don't know that he knows how to do hopeful and optimistic.

289
00:25:43.859 --> 00:25:49.859
But it's also fair to say that day 2 actually gives no indication of how bleak it's going to become.

290
00:25:49.920 --> 00:25:57.119
And I was sort of grateful for that watching and thinking, oh, good, this is actually, we're not quite there at the really harrowing bits yet, you know.

291
00:25:57.180 --> 00:26:07.559
In fact, I think the end where Yanto rocks up with that big truck and like just pulls the cell out of the wall and then throws it off and clips.

292
00:26:07.619 --> 00:26:09.119
Like, it's a bit unfair.

293
00:26:09.180 --> 00:26:10.740
Yeah, I mean, it's a plot.

294
00:26:10.799 --> 00:26:14.880
Yeah, that's exactly it. a great drilling, fun moment.

295
00:26:14.940 --> 00:26:16.859
And if it doesn't work, look, that's fine.

296
00:26:16.920 --> 00:26:22.799
I mean, you know, Barrowman's going to be burned to a crisp by the by the cement, presumably.

297
00:26:22.859 --> 00:26:26.160
Like we're not doing sort of full throated realism here at this point.

298
00:26:26.220 --> 00:26:35.400
And certainly there's a real joy in like a big car chase where we explode, like a cement mixer in their park.

299
00:26:36.240 --> 00:26:37.980
A cart chase.

300
00:26:38.039 --> 00:26:50.460
But actually, that's really good because they actually managed to hide the fact that they've pulled out this great big concrete block, which is obviously massively heavy onto this piece of serious earth movie, which at best would go at 20 K's per hour.

301
00:26:50.519 --> 00:26:56.279
I was waiting for it for it to fall off the cliff. for the whole thing, you just got to lay a balance.

302
00:26:56.339 --> 00:27:06.000
But it's interesting that because of the way it shot and the way they managed to build, you know, the time it takes for the others to get to their vehicles and so on like that and they can set up the explosion of the cement mixer.

303
00:27:06.059 --> 00:27:14.940
It actually works whereas so often these things the way they're shot and covered. you're left, you know, you're left sort of like, they're slowly getting away.

304
00:27:15.000 --> 00:27:21.299
I've talked before about the long tradition of Doctor Who monsters that you can briskly walk away.

305
00:27:22.319 --> 00:27:28.079
But I mean, look, well, that's the, I mean, the fact that he knows which cell to pull him out of is a bit nonsense.

306
00:27:28.140 --> 00:27:33.119
And the fact that it's exactly when, you know, the others are about to be shown. yeah I'll buy it. pay that.

307
00:27:33.180 --> 00:27:48.660
And that's the other half of what I was going to say is that not only is this RTD at his most bleak and nihilistic, but he also, this is when I was saying earlier that this is sort of the most torchwood torchwood has been, is that when you do separate them, one of the other things that RTD has always been great at.

308
00:27:48.720 --> 00:27:58.140
And from Rose, I mean, for the Doctor Who, from his for his Doctor Who sort of history, is the sort of like, how does all this crazy stuff affect regular people?

309
00:27:58.200 --> 00:28:02.640
Because I think Rhiannon, Rhiannon and Johnny are 2 of the best characters in this story.

310
00:28:02.700 --> 00:28:04.680
I mean, in the entire series.

311
00:28:04.740 --> 00:28:13.619
Like all the people that he, like, that the team learns to depend on, Lois Abiba as well, you know, who's sort of like, 1st day on the job, but she's a personal assistant.

312
00:28:13.680 --> 00:28:21.720
So you have this sort of the donness of her being really good at her job and fitting in perfectly into this bizarre happenstance.

313
00:28:21.779 --> 00:28:25.019
But again, it's the way that these things touch the lives of regular people.

314
00:28:25.079 --> 00:28:31.740
And I think it's that the regular people, really, that's one of the things that makes this series sing for me is that, again, what is hopeful.

315
00:28:31.799 --> 00:28:46.200
What isn't bleak, what isn't nihilistic, is that, you know, these people who live in council estates, the people who are forgotten about, the people whose children are the lowest 10% are the people who are generative, the people who are growing their communities, the people who are nurturing families.

316
00:28:46.259 --> 00:28:48.359
Like there's something really, really hopeful about that.

317
00:28:48.420 --> 00:28:52.740
One of the best sequences is, oh, I should say, there are so many good sequences.

318
00:28:52.799 --> 00:29:00.420
So a great sequence is when Gwen rushes in to risk to say, you've got to get up, you've got to go, you know, they're after me, therefore, they're going to be after you.

319
00:29:00.480 --> 00:29:02.220
And it's a side of the show.

320
00:29:02.279 --> 00:29:08.400
We haven't had that opportunity to do anything like that before, as well as Yantos family being raided in the middle of the night and all that sort of stuff.

321
00:29:08.460 --> 00:29:11.160
It helps to build the sense that this is a real world.

322
00:29:11.160 --> 00:29:12.480
And these people are affected.

323
00:29:12.539 --> 00:29:17.460
And I love that those other characters are now brought into the plot to actually contribute to it.

324
00:29:17.519 --> 00:29:21.000
And you're right with Lois acting as Capaldi's assistant.

325
00:29:21.059 --> 00:29:30.299
It's that I'm the new person, I'm seeing this, and it's a great audience surrogate moment where you can feel that, yes, I'd be doing that.

326
00:29:30.359 --> 00:29:41.640
If I had arrived there and I was thinking, I'd be checking, like, you know, logging into what's a face's computer, I'd be ringing, you know, Gwen, I'd been meeting Gwen in the cafe and and giving her all this information in 2nd of this meeting.

327
00:29:41.700 --> 00:29:44.640
That's exactly you want that kind of character because she does it so well.

328
00:29:44.700 --> 00:29:46.140
She's amazingly great.

329
00:29:46.200 --> 00:29:51.900
And like it's her investigation in episode one that tells us what the blank page is all about and what's going on.

330
00:29:51.960 --> 00:29:58.500
It's the thing that raises the big question, which is who are these 3 randos who are on the list with Captain Jack.

331
00:29:58.559 --> 00:30:06.119
That's an important question that's there in play inside and that, you know, isn't resolved until a little bit later, but that's hugely important.

332
00:30:06.180 --> 00:30:13.019
I want to say that Johnny's great moment. when Johnny's 1st introduced, you know, he calls, um, yeah, into a big queer.

333
00:30:13.500 --> 00:30:15.299
No, no, no, no, no.

334
00:30:16.740 --> 00:30:17.940
You've got a bender.

335
00:30:18.480 --> 00:30:25.859
But there's that moment where Rhiannon says, what's happening with Yanto, how come he's brought this to our house?

336
00:30:25.920 --> 00:30:32.279
And Johnny gently rebukes her and says, we're the only family that he's got left.

337
00:30:32.339 --> 00:30:37.500
And it's so good for someone who is such a big kind of dipshit like earlier on.

338
00:30:37.559 --> 00:30:39.720
Oh, no, he said that...

339
00:30:39.779 --> 00:30:40.200
No, no.

340
00:30:40.259 --> 00:30:40.799
Yeah, yeah, he does.

341
00:30:40.859 --> 00:30:41.160
He does.

342
00:30:41.220 --> 00:30:42.059
But you know what I mean?

343
00:30:42.119 --> 00:30:43.799
Like he's like a big buffy guy.

344
00:30:43.920 --> 00:30:44.940
Yes, yeah.

345
00:30:44.940 --> 00:30:47.220
I didn't need that shot of him naked on the bed there.

346
00:30:47.460 --> 00:30:51.599
There's never any sense that there's anything but love for Yanto in that house.

347
00:30:51.660 --> 00:30:58.680
And I think that the scenes on the council estate are my favourite, in day one and day 2 were by far away my favourite.

348
00:30:58.680 --> 00:31:14.700
And it's something, they even shoot it a bit differently with some steady cams to make it feel a bit more edgy, but it's also a sense that Yanto, someone's going to have to correct me on Yanto's history because I can't remember any of it, but he dresses in a 3 piece suit, but he comes from this world.

349
00:31:14.759 --> 00:31:16.559
You know, he comes from this world.

350
00:31:16.619 --> 00:31:22.799
So there's a sense of there's a sense that he's left something behind in order to get what he's what he's got.

351
00:31:22.859 --> 00:31:31.440
Um, I think, though, that, so for me, I absolutely agree, but that's where the, that's where the social realism is trying to be added in here.

352
00:31:31.500 --> 00:31:36.480
I think Lois is great too, but tell you what, she's a terrible hire.

353
00:31:36.539 --> 00:31:39.000
They should never have hired that one.

354
00:31:39.059 --> 00:31:40.079
I'm gonna stay.

355
00:31:40.140 --> 00:31:42.480
First day, she's stealing passwords.

356
00:31:42.539 --> 00:31:44.160
She's looking up...

357
00:31:44.220 --> 00:31:46.559
No, no, she's given the password.

358
00:31:46.680 --> 00:31:49.140
And it's written down and spaced it to your computer.

359
00:31:49.140 --> 00:31:51.240
And no one notices she keeps using it.

360
00:31:51.299 --> 00:31:53.880
You could not get away with that in the modern workplace.

361
00:31:54.000 --> 00:31:55.500
No, that's the government.

362
00:31:55.559 --> 00:31:56.819
That's the government that sucks.

363
00:31:56.880 --> 00:32:01.619
He wasn't meant to use that password to take...

364
00:32:01.680 --> 00:32:03.720
But no one notices.

365
00:32:03.779 --> 00:32:10.079
There's a moment that the lowest spotline for me is just on that edge of things which pull you out of the story.

366
00:32:10.140 --> 00:32:14.640
Yeah, it's a terrific performance, but there's a moment going, this is your 1st day.

367
00:32:14.700 --> 00:32:15.839
This is your 2nd day.

368
00:32:15.900 --> 00:32:17.700
Would you actually be doing these?

369
00:32:17.759 --> 00:32:18.900
She does at least hang around tonight.

370
00:32:18.960 --> 00:32:20.220
She does say that.

371
00:32:20.279 --> 00:32:26.819
And like when Jack rings are on day one and she goes, oh, it's my 1st day.

372
00:32:26.940 --> 00:32:28.980
He goes, wow, you know, hell of a 1st day.

373
00:32:29.039 --> 00:32:32.519
Like, so they do kind of play with that.

374
00:32:32.579 --> 00:32:35.220
But yeah, she's saying it's day 2 and I'm committing treason.

375
00:32:37.440 --> 00:32:44.400
That, to me, is really one of the most disappointing things about the way that the series ends is that they keep, they leave her in the cell.

376
00:32:44.460 --> 00:32:48.960
And I guess that's to keep her from being complicit in what happens.

377
00:32:49.019 --> 00:32:51.720
Because, I mean, she could do the computer stuff, but like, yes.

378
00:32:51.779 --> 00:32:53.160
So, I mean, I get I get that.

379
00:32:53.279 --> 00:32:57.299
But that's that I just like, I wanted her involved in some way in the end.

380
00:32:57.359 --> 00:33:03.779
But it's interesting, Johnny, in the way, you're just saying, you know, it's only day 2 and you're committing treason and stuff, which I know they hang a lantern and landing on.

381
00:33:03.839 --> 00:33:08.039
But at the same time, that's that sort of heightened accelerated nature of drama.

382
00:33:08.099 --> 00:33:20.519
And I often try and think of it this way is that, I mean, maybe you did notice it, but if it's happening and you don't notice it until afterwards and you go, oh, that's a bit funny that she was only there a day and she's already doing all this stuff.

383
00:33:20.700 --> 00:33:28.380
It's fine because it's managed to be kind of become part of a story and hidden in such a way, hidden in plain view, if you like, that you run with it.

384
00:33:28.440 --> 00:33:32.880
And other times they can do exactly the same kind of thing and you're just sitting there the entire time once you get going.

385
00:33:32.940 --> 00:33:33.720
Oh, this is just ridiculous.

386
00:33:33.779 --> 00:33:34.859
It's like you've been there one day.

387
00:33:34.920 --> 00:33:48.359
I think the other option, would it, would for it to have been an old dishevelled disgruntled employee who is seeking revenge against Bridget or something and that would have made more sense, but...

388
00:33:48.420 --> 00:33:53.519
The thing about torture it is that you need people who look like they might be the next members of the tour.

389
00:33:53.579 --> 00:33:54.299
Oh, yes, yes.

390
00:33:54.359 --> 00:34:00.000
And so they need to be sort of young and attractive and look like they're about to run away and join the Torchwood Circus, right?

391
00:34:00.059 --> 00:34:02.279
Is this person the next companion kind of thing.

392
00:34:02.400 --> 00:34:06.180
Although, I have to say, it's like Torchwood, can you spell that?

393
00:34:06.240 --> 00:34:07.799
I mean how the hell do you think it's spelled?

394
00:34:08.639 --> 00:34:11.880
W-O-U-I. I need to get a torch.

395
00:34:11.880 --> 00:34:12.659
Torchwood.

396
00:34:12.719 --> 00:34:14.519
I did get a real thrill though.

397
00:34:14.579 --> 00:34:23.639
A real, like, buzz up the back of my neck when Gwen asks her at the, um, at the, at the coffee shop. when this is over and you need a job, call me.

398
00:34:24.300 --> 00:34:30.960
Like, there's such a, there was like an absolute, like, thrill that went up the back of my neck when she said that because there's like, you could feel that she invests in people.

399
00:34:31.019 --> 00:34:40.139
Except, you know, the last person that they recruited as a doctor and then the previous doctor and then the previous computer operator.

400
00:34:40.199 --> 00:34:41.460
Do you know what I mean?

401
00:34:41.519 --> 00:34:42.480
Like, it's not a great job.

402
00:34:42.539 --> 00:34:44.639
That's not focussed too much on that.

403
00:34:44.699 --> 00:34:48.059
But that's one of the things, that's one of the things about series 3 itself.

404
00:34:48.119 --> 00:34:56.219
Like, again, and we've been talking about the way that the series is developing, for me, when I got to the end of season of the end of the season, because I just went ahead and watched the whole thing.

405
00:34:56.280 --> 00:35:20.099
I just got really sucked into it again, is that, you know, in a different reality, you sort of picture a torchwood series 4 that goes from high stakes of like the children of Earth are going to be taken back to sort of like sort of smaller stakes in Cardiff with Rhiannon and Johnny and, you know, the people on, like to involve, like to go smaller and and more sort of like into the into the community.

406
00:35:20.159 --> 00:35:30.179
Like, that feels like it would have been a, a, a, like a, like a winning, it felt like a winning formula to me, and it really is like made me sad at the end to know that it went in a completely different direction.

407
00:35:30.300 --> 00:35:32.639
I've got to say, I don't...

408
00:35:32.639 --> 00:35:36.599
I really like the three-person Torchwood team.

409
00:35:36.659 --> 00:35:38.039
I don't miss the other two.

410
00:35:38.099 --> 00:35:39.840
I think actually there were too many of them.

411
00:35:39.900 --> 00:35:44.219
And even in this episode where we take Barrowman out for most of the episode.

412
00:35:44.280 --> 00:35:49.500
It's perfectly serviceable to just have that small number of characters and we get to know them.

413
00:35:49.559 --> 00:35:54.659
I think they're the most likeable of the of the torchwood lineups too, and that helps a lot.

414
00:35:54.719 --> 00:36:08.099
But that also, it's because we're, we've got Reese and um, Yanto's sister, whose name we can, Rihanna, and and Lois, um, basically being effectively de facto, additional members of Torchwood, what would argue.

415
00:36:08.159 --> 00:36:09.059
I mean, that's right.

416
00:36:09.119 --> 00:36:17.639
We've got so we've got something that's literally the length of half a torchwood season. normally because it's 5 hours long and we have a massive regular cast.

417
00:36:17.699 --> 00:36:19.800
It's just that only 3 of them are in torchwood.

418
00:36:19.860 --> 00:36:30.119
And, you know, because we've got Alice, because we've got Bridget, we've got all of these people who appear, Johnson, people who appear every episode and are hugely important to it, but aren't part of Torchwood.

419
00:36:30.179 --> 00:36:32.219
And that's the other thing about this that makes it.

420
00:36:32.280 --> 00:36:36.599
So good, is that you have this massive regular car.

421
00:36:36.659 --> 00:36:37.019
Yeah.

422
00:36:37.019 --> 00:36:43.380
And so you can do things that you can sideline torchwood for an episode while other stuff goes on.

423
00:36:43.440 --> 00:36:50.699
It's interesting with talking about, you know, not missing those other cast members and I call them, you know, it's obviously Mr. Guppy and Titikaka.

424
00:36:50.760 --> 00:36:57.420
But both of them, it's not the fact that we didn't like this characters because I did like those characters.

425
00:36:57.480 --> 00:37:06.179
It's the fact that it's interesting that they set up torchwood in the way that you'd sent up like a US drama or a network drama which has 26 episodes.

426
00:37:06.239 --> 00:37:18.300
The reason you have that ensemble of characters is so that you can have, you know, in your mystery of the week, you have different characters get different focus, which means you can shoot several episodes at the sort of at the same time and da da da.

427
00:37:18.360 --> 00:37:23.219
Whereas they still kind of use that format, even though they're only doing, you know, 10 episodes or 13 or whatever.

428
00:37:32.940 --> 00:37:38.460
While we're talking about the extended cast, I've got to mention Johnson, the...

429
00:37:38.460 --> 00:37:47.340
She's the 18 Johnson, who walks around with a look on her face like she's just trodden in something horrible and she never takes that look off her face.

430
00:37:47.400 --> 00:37:48.840
She's consistently like that.

431
00:37:48.900 --> 00:37:51.360
She should win a BAFTA for consistently.

432
00:37:51.420 --> 00:37:53.460
I've stepped in something awful acting.

433
00:37:53.579 --> 00:37:54.420
Do you know what?

434
00:37:54.480 --> 00:38:06.059
In episode three, there's one moment where she's there with Alice and she says something like, oh, goodness, you can't tell Stephen that Jack is his grandfather.

435
00:38:06.119 --> 00:38:06.840
Can you?

436
00:38:06.900 --> 00:38:16.380
And just for a moment, she connects with Alice in a way and connects over, like how to like Alice and her relationship with her child.

437
00:38:16.380 --> 00:38:18.539
And she actually softens.

438
00:38:18.539 --> 00:38:22.559
And for the rest of the show, you know, she ends up on our side.

439
00:38:22.619 --> 00:38:27.000
You know, she does end up on our side, even though she's like super murderous and stuff.

440
00:38:27.059 --> 00:38:29.519
I really, I like her a great deal.

441
00:38:29.579 --> 00:38:31.199
Like, I think she's really good.

442
00:38:31.260 --> 00:38:31.980
Yes, she's great.

443
00:38:32.039 --> 00:38:33.659
The other character mentioned is Decker.

444
00:38:33.719 --> 00:38:34.199
Decker.

445
00:38:34.260 --> 00:38:34.500
Yep.

446
00:38:34.559 --> 00:38:36.719
Or as I like to call him, evil Leo McGarry.

447
00:38:36.780 --> 00:38:38.699
Evil Leo McGarry.

448
00:38:38.760 --> 00:38:40.559
He has such a He sort of does that.

449
00:38:40.619 --> 00:38:50.940
But he's also sort of like, you know, the sort of like Leo in the West Wing, sort of the chief of staff who, like, gets things done, like, or is the guy who has to kick butt to get things done.

450
00:38:51.000 --> 00:38:52.500
It feels like Decker is playing that same role.

451
00:38:52.559 --> 00:38:53.940
But yes, no, we got to talk about both of these.

452
00:38:54.000 --> 00:38:56.519
So Decker is the guy who's building the thing.

453
00:38:56.519 --> 00:38:57.059
Yes.

454
00:38:57.719 --> 00:39:01.500
So the interesting thing that I find, firstly, I don't actually like Johnson.

455
00:39:01.559 --> 00:39:04.079
At this point, I haven't yet watched the rest of it.

456
00:39:04.139 --> 00:39:06.179
So I'm up to this point.

457
00:39:06.300 --> 00:39:11.400
So the last I cannot, and I cannot remember exactly how it unfolds, although I have a pretty good idea.

458
00:39:11.460 --> 00:39:15.420
I don't really like Johnson's character at this point. that that's the way she develops.

459
00:39:15.480 --> 00:39:22.619
Deck is interesting because for me, in that kind of red herring style, I'm wondering at this point where the decker is actually an alien.

460
00:39:23.280 --> 00:39:26.400
Because the way the looks on his face and the way he's doing things.

461
00:39:26.460 --> 00:39:33.840
And obviously he knows more than he's saying and he knows that Capaldi knows more than he's saying in that last segment in this episode with a tank and it's filling out.

462
00:39:33.960 --> 00:39:37.079
That's very odd at the end where he approaches... that's what I'm wanting.

463
00:39:37.139 --> 00:39:44.699
That's all for me as a viewer feeding into, you know, he's not one of us sort of thing, as I say, it's quite fast, especially with the look on his face the whole time. not quite real.

464
00:39:44.760 --> 00:39:48.840
And that's one of the things is that he is a sort of parallel character to Frobisher.

465
00:39:48.900 --> 00:39:56.699
Not only are they, you know, in these scenes together, but they're both sort of like, middlemen, keep your nose down, do your work, career civil servants.

466
00:39:56.760 --> 00:40:00.300
It's just that they have almost completely different approaches to it.

467
00:40:00.360 --> 00:40:34.800
And going back to Johnson also, it, it, you know, and maybe we can talk about this at some point, but it's something that kept coming up in my head is the way that, uh, because Johnson is such a hard ass and because she's a woman and an action woman, uh, much like Eve Miles, uh, uh, Gwen Cooper, that there are, that this, that this entire series, uh, really sets up sort of, I don't want to say strange because it's not strange, but it's, uh, atypical approaches to what, uh, defin- defining masculinity and and femininity uh But that's something we can we can go on at a later time.

468
00:40:34.860 --> 00:40:46.139
I have to say that the really big clear difference between Decca and Frobisher is that one has children and the other one doesn't and there's that whole conversation around that.

469
00:40:46.199 --> 00:40:51.599
And he says something dismissively about how he was always too busy with work to have children.

470
00:40:51.659 --> 00:40:53.940
But I think you can do both.

471
00:40:54.000 --> 00:40:55.920
Apparently. think you can.

472
00:40:55.980 --> 00:40:58.079
And we all know from experience.

473
00:40:59.699 --> 00:41:12.179
I think the scary thing about Decker is that he seems to be quietly looking forward to the 456 arriving and he where nobody, everyone else is going, yeah, this is doom laden.

474
00:41:12.239 --> 00:41:17.099
He's kind of going, yeah, I'm up for the chaos, which is about to ensue.

475
00:41:17.159 --> 00:41:20.159
And he's he's a terrific actor.

476
00:41:20.219 --> 00:41:22.920
I think he's that's Ian Gelder.

477
00:41:22.980 --> 00:41:24.360
He is in.

478
00:41:24.539 --> 00:41:25.320
Can you hear me?

479
00:41:25.380 --> 00:41:27.539
The Jodie Whittaker episode.

480
00:41:27.599 --> 00:41:31.380
He's the one who flies fingers around other people, I think.

481
00:41:31.440 --> 00:41:32.280
Yeah, yeah.

482
00:41:32.400 --> 00:41:44.639
And actually comparing those 2 performances is interesting because where in this where he's given something really subtle and really um, really sort of pernicious to do.

483
00:41:44.699 --> 00:41:46.440
He's just terrific at it.

484
00:41:46.500 --> 00:41:53.880
And, um, that moment at the end of the episode where he, he approaches the cage, not the cage, the tank.

485
00:41:53.940 --> 00:42:08.340
He coaches the tank to breathe on it, is shows a sort of, um, uh, synchronicity with the with the monsters, which is, I can see Simon Howe watching it, you'd think, he's the monster's man on the inside.

486
00:42:08.400 --> 00:42:09.599
Yes, yeah.

487
00:42:09.659 --> 00:42:18.300
Is it that he relishes the some kind of comeuppance for what happened before?

488
00:42:18.360 --> 00:42:19.019
In the 60s?

489
00:42:19.079 --> 00:42:21.719
Yeah, it's not, it isn't, it isn't very clearly that.

490
00:42:21.780 --> 00:42:22.440
I think.

491
00:42:22.500 --> 00:42:49.139
I think, like, there is something, because that mystery, it does get brought up at the very end, when it's just him and Bridget and Frobisher, like, it's very clear that something has gone on that we don't know about, that, and, and, you know, you have to be kind of, the television watching guy, to kind of know these 3 names are people that we've never seen before, and that means that this intertorch would thing.

492
00:42:49.199 --> 00:42:54.900
That's something that Jack has done in his past that's not tortured related is important here.

493
00:42:55.260 --> 00:43:04.619
And that thing enables us to go for 2 full episodes without getting bored for a 2nd. even though the aliens haven't turned up.

494
00:43:04.739 --> 00:43:05.699
We've had 2 hours.

495
00:43:05.760 --> 00:43:07.500
The aliens aren't here yet.

496
00:43:07.559 --> 00:43:12.000
I would gently suggest that it's especially because the aliens haven't turned.

497
00:43:12.119 --> 00:43:12.599
Yeah, yeah.

498
00:43:12.599 --> 00:43:20.579
Because I think if the aliens turn up too early, that's when the rest of it just drags because you've shot your load, I believe, is the expression.

499
00:43:21.539 --> 00:43:33.539
We do have the strangeness, though, not only of the children being used as sort of puppets or mouthpieces of the 456, but also, and we haven't talked about him yet either.

500
00:43:33.599 --> 00:43:36.300
Um, and I can't remember the name of the character.

501
00:43:36.360 --> 00:43:37.920
The actor's name is Paul Copley.

502
00:43:37.980 --> 00:43:40.980
Um, the guy who is in the, uh, the care home.

503
00:43:40.980 --> 00:43:43.019
Uh, who was...

504
00:43:43.019 --> 00:43:43.559
Clem.

505
00:43:43.559 --> 00:43:43.920
Clem.

506
00:43:43.980 --> 00:43:44.880
Yes, yes, that's right.

507
00:43:44.940 --> 00:43:47.460
Uh, who was a fantastic character actor. also.

508
00:43:47.519 --> 00:43:55.619
I know him mostly from the, he played a one of the crew on the hornblower series with Joan Griffith in the late 90s.

509
00:43:55.679 --> 00:44:02.579
So I know him mostly from that, but also I think he was in Call the Midwife, whatever, Candleford, all the period dramas.

510
00:44:02.639 --> 00:44:04.860
But he's a great, he's a terrific character actor.

511
00:44:04.920 --> 00:44:23.099
But there, you also get a sort of alienness from him, which, like the children isn't specifically just about children being kidnapped by aliens, you know, it's through that character that we're also seeing like, you know, neglect of the elderly, you know, mental health issues, like, is this something like with Ian Gelder's character?

512
00:44:23.159 --> 00:44:23.940
Is he just weird?

513
00:44:24.000 --> 00:44:26.219
Is he an alien, you know, plant?

514
00:44:26.280 --> 00:44:30.480
Like, it's, you can ask the same questions about, about that character, about the Clem character?

515
00:44:30.539 --> 00:44:37.260
I mean, his ability to smell the aliens coming is never explained or to smell Gwen's pregnancy.

516
00:44:37.320 --> 00:44:38.099
Yeah, yeah.

517
00:44:38.159 --> 00:44:42.420
And again, I haven't seen the rest of it for 17 years or however long it's been.

518
00:44:42.480 --> 00:44:47.579
But we're supposed to assume that he was the boy that seems to have been left behind on the bus.

519
00:44:47.579 --> 00:44:49.440
And am I right in thinking it wasn't him?

520
00:44:49.500 --> 00:44:50.579
No, it was him.

521
00:44:50.820 --> 00:44:55.860
So we I couldn't remember whether it was going to be Capaldi that is actually the boy that's been left behind.

522
00:44:55.980 --> 00:44:58.500
So Capaldi doesn't seem quite old enough for this.

523
00:44:58.559 --> 00:45:00.119
Like Dekker does.

524
00:45:00.239 --> 00:45:05.699
If that happened in 65, which is... 33 years. 43 years.

525
00:45:05.760 --> 00:45:06.780
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

526
00:45:08.039 --> 00:45:10.380
That elusive decade.

527
00:45:11.460 --> 00:45:14.519
That's what I'm trying to do, Matt, swallow the podcast.

528
00:45:14.519 --> 00:45:22.320
No, it's just that, remember, when you, when you, when you move time from the 20th, the 21st century, generally the 1990s, all the naughts disappeared.

529
00:45:22.380 --> 00:45:23.760
We forget about it.

530
00:45:24.059 --> 00:45:26.159
Because we can't possibly be that whole.

531
00:45:26.639 --> 00:45:29.940
And also it's the 21st century, so everything changed.

532
00:45:30.000 --> 00:45:31.920
Exactly.

533
00:45:31.920 --> 00:45:32.400
Yeah.

534
00:45:32.460 --> 00:45:40.980
So he's not quite old enough, maybe Decker is, but you know, you'd have to squint and kind of, you know, he's probably... supposed to be 8 years old.

535
00:45:41.039 --> 00:45:42.179
So 43 years, 51.

536
00:45:42.300 --> 00:45:42.900
That's about right.

537
00:45:42.960 --> 00:45:43.739
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

538
00:45:43.800 --> 00:45:46.079
How old's Frobisher and how old are they?

539
00:45:46.139 --> 00:45:47.760
It could be early 50s. 50s?

540
00:45:47.820 --> 00:45:48.300
Well, easy.

541
00:45:48.360 --> 00:45:52.739
But don't they have to have been involved in the cover-up in 1965?

542
00:45:52.800 --> 00:45:54.539
Oh, no, to be involved in the cover-up.

543
00:45:54.599 --> 00:45:55.019
No, no, no.

544
00:45:55.079 --> 00:45:57.659
I just meant in terms of being like on that bus or something.

545
00:45:57.719 --> 00:45:58.739
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

546
00:45:58.800 --> 00:46:00.480
No, no, he's the right age for the bus.

547
00:46:00.539 --> 00:46:01.920
He's in his mid-50s or something.

548
00:46:01.980 --> 00:46:03.719
He's probably younger than both of us, Simon, actually.

549
00:46:03.780 --> 00:46:04.320
Shut up.

550
00:46:06.659 --> 00:46:12.300
But it's also just it's also just access, like Lois, like how she is discovering all these things.

551
00:46:12.360 --> 00:46:20.219
We can assume that that's one of the things that Decker is taking relish in is that he's just had, he's, he's been in the, he's been in the archives, like all his career.

552
00:46:20.280 --> 00:46:28.980
Like, he knows secrets and like, you know, there's that when he's when they're having that conversation about the thing, he's like, you know, he lists off a number of things it could be.

553
00:46:29.039 --> 00:46:31.860
He's like, it could be, you know, an ambassadorial suite.

554
00:46:31.920 --> 00:46:34.619
It could be a throne, a throne.

555
00:46:34.679 --> 00:46:35.639
It could be a slaughterhouse.

556
00:46:35.699 --> 00:46:35.940
Yeah.

557
00:46:36.000 --> 00:46:47.280
So it's, I think he's just like, I think he's one of these characters, one of these characters who just likes chaos and like wants, wants something different than normal everyday stuff.

558
00:46:47.340 --> 00:46:50.639
And even though I watched the whole thing last weekend.

559
00:46:50.940 --> 00:46:57.840
When I was rewatching episode 2 this morning, I thought it ended with we are coming back tomorrow.

560
00:46:57.900 --> 00:47:12.300
Like I thought it ended with tomorrow as the revelation, just like coming back was the revelation at the end of episode one, but instead it does end with that very, very strange scene of Decca. looking at the thing, which is pretty amazing.

561
00:47:16.559 --> 00:47:18.960
Can we talk about Eve Miles?

562
00:47:19.260 --> 00:47:22.559
I just think she is spectacular. sensational.

563
00:47:22.619 --> 00:47:23.039
Yeah.

564
00:47:23.099 --> 00:47:26.519
Very, very committed and convincing at all times.

565
00:47:26.579 --> 00:47:35.099
I love when they're trying to get Barrowman out of the, the, the hold the cell and, you know, restart saying, you know, she's married and pregnant.

566
00:47:35.159 --> 00:47:36.719
I can't do a watch accent.

567
00:47:36.780 --> 00:47:40.679
But in the way, she just turns around with this kind of zipper.

568
00:47:40.739 --> 00:47:42.840
It is just brilliant.

569
00:47:42.900 --> 00:47:45.300
Gosh, I wish I had that control to people.

570
00:47:45.719 --> 00:47:49.380
I really like the scene when they're in the when they're in the truck.

571
00:47:49.440 --> 00:47:50.940
The potato truck.

572
00:47:50.940 --> 00:47:52.079
The potato truck.

573
00:47:52.139 --> 00:47:53.820
It's so charming.

574
00:47:53.880 --> 00:48:01.019
Well, the moment the fact that she doesn't have to say that she's pregnant, she does, but she doesn't say it.

575
00:48:01.079 --> 00:48:03.119
She doesn't say I'm pregnant.

576
00:48:03.179 --> 00:48:05.039
Sorry, she doesn't actually, she doesn't say I'm pregnant.

577
00:48:05.099 --> 00:48:09.360
She just says, you know, when you have to make a big announcement, that's one of those things in your head.

578
00:48:09.420 --> 00:48:12.179
And then he goes, 0 my god, that's fantastic news.

579
00:48:12.239 --> 00:48:14.699
Yeah, so that's because interesting they mentioned the nursery in the 1st episode.

580
00:48:14.760 --> 00:48:15.599
So it's lovely.

581
00:48:15.659 --> 00:48:23.340
That actually shows the kind of a bit of a delicate writing style, which I think Russell throws away later on.

582
00:48:23.400 --> 00:48:25.079
Well, this isn't Russell, remember?

583
00:48:25.139 --> 00:48:26.219
This is John Fay.

584
00:48:26.280 --> 00:48:33.719
Okay, but the planning, he's show running it, nevertheless, and kind of a, it just shows a lightness of touch, which I think is missing from his work.

585
00:48:33.780 --> 00:48:37.679
I also think if it's a boy named it Edward after the potato. potato.

586
00:48:39.000 --> 00:48:52.260
I don't know how I feel about that character sniffing out Wen's pregnancy in day one, but it does at least make a change from characters running out of the room to vomit and then you realise later on that they're pregnant.

587
00:48:52.320 --> 00:49:05.340
So it is, but we must talk about, we must talk about having a, um, a newly pregnant woman lie on a box of potatoes on the 3 hour drive from, from Cardiff to London.

588
00:49:05.400 --> 00:49:06.360
Yeah.

589
00:49:06.360 --> 00:49:07.079
She's pregnant.

590
00:49:07.139 --> 00:49:07.679
She's not sick.

591
00:49:08.340 --> 00:49:16.860
I mean, we should be in one piece, but I mean, I mean, actually, we see her on one piece making a phone call immediately afterwards, seeming to have no after effects at all.

592
00:49:16.920 --> 00:49:18.179
Neither of them from that.

593
00:49:18.239 --> 00:49:18.960
What?

594
00:49:19.019 --> 00:49:19.920
I mean, come on.

595
00:49:19.980 --> 00:49:20.880
I've never lied.

596
00:49:20.940 --> 00:49:22.559
To be fair disclosure.

597
00:49:22.619 --> 00:49:27.780
I never actually laid down stomach 1st on a box of potatoes, but I don't think it's going to be the most comfortable journey.

598
00:49:27.840 --> 00:49:29.460
I think perhaps they might have felt good.

599
00:49:29.519 --> 00:49:30.719
Well, they say it's not comfortable at least.

600
00:49:30.780 --> 00:49:43.920
I mean, I think that obviously in a show that's about children and one of the things that it is about, and particularly towards the end, is what sort of world have we left for our children to grow up in and concerns around that.

601
00:49:43.980 --> 00:50:06.000
And suddenly she has a stake in that, just all of a sudden, the reason that she's pregnant for this episode is because it now matters to her in a much more urgent way what the world that she leaves behind is going to be like and is it a world in which we sacrifice 10% of the world's children in order to keep going.

602
00:50:06.059 --> 00:50:07.019
Do you know what I mean?

603
00:50:07.079 --> 00:50:09.420
Like what sort of world are we in?

604
00:50:09.480 --> 00:50:22.619
And I said last time that even though Jack has a grandchild, because he's immortal, he doesn't feel that concern because he's going to be around in that world.

605
00:50:22.679 --> 00:50:25.739
He's not being replaced by Stephen at any point.

606
00:50:25.860 --> 00:50:29.760
He'll grow up and he'll he'll watch Stephen die.

607
00:50:29.820 --> 00:50:33.480
He'll bear it where he does, but sooner than he might have expected.

608
00:50:33.539 --> 00:50:41.340
But even in the normal course of affairs, he would he would bury Stephen the way that he buried Stephen's grandmother, you know.

609
00:50:41.400 --> 00:50:45.360
So all of that stuff about all that stuff about having a steak in the future.

610
00:50:45.420 --> 00:50:53.400
Like having children of your own doesn't just change the relationship that you have with children, but it changes how you feel about the future, I think.

611
00:50:53.519 --> 00:50:59.159
And so, yeah, you know, definitely giving that to Gwen in this episode.

612
00:50:59.159 --> 00:51:10.860
And, you know, it's a great effect later on, I think, in episode five, where she contemplates aborting the child because of this is the world that we've got for the child to grow up in.

613
00:51:10.920 --> 00:51:16.320
Um, you know, like I think that's, that adds, adds to the stakes, I think.

614
00:51:16.380 --> 00:51:20.099
But yeah, no, Gwen is a, she's such a sensational character.

615
00:51:20.159 --> 00:51:21.119
She's such a sensational.

616
00:51:21.179 --> 00:51:25.739
I mean, she's, she's, she is basically the hero of, of this series of torchwood.

617
00:51:25.800 --> 00:51:28.019
Like there's no, there's no doubt that she's the star.

618
00:51:28.079 --> 00:51:35.460
So so last week we actually said that Andy Pryor was the hero of this series.

619
00:51:35.460 --> 00:51:36.360
Oh, as the casting, yeah.

620
00:51:36.420 --> 00:51:38.940
So, yeah, there's so many...

621
00:51:39.000 --> 00:51:41.039
Yeah, like I think Alice is stunning.

622
00:51:41.099 --> 00:51:41.940
Rhiannon is stunning.

623
00:51:42.000 --> 00:51:47.039
Yep, you know, Capaldi, um, um, Cush Jumbo.

624
00:51:47.099 --> 00:51:48.119
Like...

625
00:51:48.179 --> 00:51:48.960
They're just like incredible.

626
00:51:49.019 --> 00:51:52.079
And that's so refreshing that everyone is good.

627
00:51:52.139 --> 00:51:53.579
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

628
00:51:53.639 --> 00:51:54.119
Yeah.

629
00:51:54.179 --> 00:51:57.659
And again, it shows you that trajectory that Torchwood was on.

630
00:51:57.719 --> 00:52:04.559
Like it really didn't, it could attract that cast in that level of talent by the time it got to BBC one in its 3rd year.

631
00:52:04.619 --> 00:52:20.460
I mean, it's one of the reasons why I think Barrowman's an idiot is because he was complaining and like he was complaining when this came out, that we're being punished by getting an order of 5 episodes and it's kind of like this is 5 episodes on BBC One.

632
00:52:20.519 --> 00:52:22.320
They're each an hour long.

633
00:52:22.380 --> 00:52:26.219
It's going to be the focus of TV for that week.

634
00:52:26.280 --> 00:52:28.679
Yeah, so it was on every night every night.

635
00:52:28.739 --> 00:52:29.460
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

636
00:52:29.519 --> 00:52:34.139
Which, again, is one of the things that makes it so kind of propulsive.

637
00:52:34.199 --> 00:52:35.880
And, you know, it's wild.

638
00:52:35.880 --> 00:52:38.159
Like those 80s miniseries, you know, like V.

639
00:52:38.219 --> 00:52:39.059
Like V.

640
00:52:39.119 --> 00:52:39.599
Yes, exactly.

641
00:52:39.599 --> 00:52:40.800
The thorn bird.

642
00:52:40.800 --> 00:52:52.199
Especially for when it when it came out because it was it was supposedly in a sort of a dead zone because it dropped in the middle of the summer, but that only meant that it was the only thing on.

643
00:52:52.260 --> 00:52:54.119
The only new thing on, even better.

644
00:52:54.239 --> 00:53:03.480
Yeah, and so, and so, you know, that's why Melvin and I had to watch the whole thing one after the other because it's designed to be consumed in that way.

645
00:53:03.539 --> 00:53:10.019
And, you know, the fact that we wait 2 hours for the aliens to arrive doesn't matter because it's really they arrive on Wednesday.

646
00:53:12.719 --> 00:53:15.179
But I guess that's the thing.

647
00:53:15.179 --> 00:53:18.960
It goes back to what you were saying, John, earlier, about it being like a Netflix drama, a modern Netflix drama. is.

648
00:53:19.019 --> 00:53:20.099
It's built like that.

649
00:53:20.159 --> 00:53:21.360
It's built to binge.

650
00:53:21.420 --> 00:53:22.199
Yeah, yeah.

651
00:53:22.199 --> 00:53:27.059
And, you know, the whole thing would have dropped, would drop in one hit and you'd sit down and you'd watch it in one weekend.

652
00:53:27.119 --> 00:53:29.820
I unfortunately did not have the luxury of time over the past week.

653
00:53:29.880 --> 00:53:31.019
Yeah, not to do that.

654
00:53:31.079 --> 00:53:39.840
But it's interesting to looking at, I mean, because I don't watch 21st century Doctor Who very often, if at all, you know, it's not my comfort, go to food.

655
00:53:39.900 --> 00:53:44.340
Nor do I go back and happen to see a television drama from 2009 very often.

656
00:53:44.400 --> 00:53:53.039
And what's fascinating, I found about it is, you know, in the past 17 years, how styles and things have changed and the way things are made.

657
00:53:53.099 --> 00:53:56.579
I mean, I don't know this would this have been high definition or was it still standard?

658
00:53:56.639 --> 00:53:57.840
So this is my definition.

659
00:53:57.900 --> 00:54:00.239
Okay, so Doctor Who and Torch would both go to HD.

660
00:54:00.239 --> 00:54:02.760
Okay, because the gapier specials are HD.

661
00:54:02.820 --> 00:54:03.059
Yeah.

662
00:54:03.119 --> 00:54:06.420
So, but of course now things are 4K. And so it's more country.

663
00:54:06.480 --> 00:54:12.599
But also the way things are made now in terms of production design is much more muted in colouring.

664
00:54:12.659 --> 00:54:17.219
There is so much more bright stuff. you know, there's people wearing bright coloured t-shirts.

665
00:54:17.280 --> 00:54:18.179
The curtains are bright.

666
00:54:18.239 --> 00:54:21.840
There's blue tinted black backgrounds on walls and so on.

667
00:54:21.900 --> 00:54:26.280
It is so much more colourful than the way TV and film is made now.

668
00:54:26.340 --> 00:54:27.300
I mean, it's a fashion thing.

669
00:54:27.360 --> 00:54:30.059
It's a change of taste, but, you know, it's just interesting to see the change.

670
00:54:30.119 --> 00:54:32.579
I'm glad you said that because I thought it was my television.

671
00:54:32.639 --> 00:54:35.639
I thought, oh, why is the graph so green?

672
00:54:35.699 --> 00:54:36.300
Why simply?

673
00:54:36.300 --> 00:54:38.760
But they actually overthought...

674
00:54:38.820 --> 00:54:42.599
These are much more muted now in their in their grading, you know.

675
00:54:42.659 --> 00:54:44.880
Just think about Doctor Who at the time.

676
00:54:44.940 --> 00:54:48.719
Like Russell's Doctor Who is very, very brightly coloured, very, very saturated.

677
00:54:48.780 --> 00:55:02.820
And I remember something on the where there's some handheld stuff in the next doctor and Russell is talking about how he spoke to the director and said, actually, this is not what we do in Doctor Who.

678
00:55:02.880 --> 00:55:15.000
That's more of a torch would look, but I mean now, 16 years later, I think we said last week that this just looks like it was shot on a videotape, really, because it is that sort of very immediate, bright coloured.

679
00:55:15.059 --> 00:55:17.940
It's not muted the way that film is muted.

680
00:55:18.000 --> 00:55:20.760
It really does look very television-y.

681
00:55:20.880 --> 00:55:25.980
Well, yes, because in 2009, there is still a division between a more of a division between television.

682
00:55:26.039 --> 00:55:33.000
Whereas now the streaming services have blurred, completely blurred that and television, any television is made for completely filmically now.

683
00:55:33.059 --> 00:55:34.260
You can barely tell a difference.

684
00:55:34.320 --> 00:55:35.099
Well, that's right.

685
00:55:35.159 --> 00:55:36.119
And TV hardware, too.

686
00:55:36.179 --> 00:55:37.559
TV cover, exactly.

687
00:55:37.619 --> 00:55:38.400
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

688
00:55:38.460 --> 00:55:39.900
And our size of our screens and everything.

689
00:55:39.960 --> 00:55:40.260
Exactly right.

690
00:55:40.320 --> 00:55:43.920
Well, remember, we'd have still, I mean, we probably would have watched this on still a cathode ray tube.

691
00:55:43.980 --> 00:55:47.099
It would have been a wide screen television, but it was still a CRT, I think, that I had.

692
00:55:47.159 --> 00:55:53.579
And even then you were watching, we may have been watching it not necessarily from a broadcast copy.

693
00:55:53.639 --> 00:56:00.480
I wouldn't want to say how I watched it back in 2009, but it wouldn't have been the best clarity either.

694
00:56:00.539 --> 00:56:05.039
And it's fascinating how just the way we can see, even the way we consume things.

695
00:56:05.099 --> 00:56:13.559
Like people, I mean, the streaming services like I view and iPlayer, they'd started by then, but they weren't nearly as big as they are now.

696
00:56:13.619 --> 00:56:17.820
Like you just don't watch anything live to wear. you know, as it's broadcast anymore.

697
00:56:17.880 --> 00:56:18.239
No.

698
00:56:18.300 --> 00:56:18.780
Yeah.

699
00:56:19.079 --> 00:56:21.360
And that and that's another thing.

700
00:56:21.420 --> 00:56:28.440
Like, this is such a pivot, a pivot point. like 2009 because it's the end of, it's the year of specials in Doctor Who.

701
00:56:28.500 --> 00:56:35.340
Um, uh, uh, you can still see the phones they're using are like barely above flip phone. like we're not into smartphones.

702
00:56:35.400 --> 00:56:36.840
There's a camera, but that's it, yeah.

703
00:56:36.900 --> 00:56:37.260
Yeah.

704
00:56:37.320 --> 00:56:59.880
So, I mean, but again, like there's there's something about this and where it sits in in time, as it were, that makes it, you know, not only forward thinking in terms of like the format of the TV show, being precient for the kind of television that we've consumed over the last 10 years, especially the last five, 8 years, even more, especially, but like the the topicality of stuff.

705
00:56:59.940 --> 00:57:02.340
Like thinking again about it really.

706
00:57:02.400 --> 00:57:08.099
I mean, it hit me hard, seeing them take those, take, like the army taking children, like that was.

707
00:57:08.159 --> 00:57:15.840
I mean, it's scary, and then listen, what you were saying earlier about Gwen saying, what kind of, what kind of world, you know, would you want to raise a child in a world like this?

708
00:57:15.900 --> 00:57:19.380
I mean, think about what the last 17 years have wrought.

709
00:57:19.440 --> 00:57:21.719
Like, when has a point, when has a point?

710
00:57:21.780 --> 00:57:24.179
Like, it's a it's a nasty world.

711
00:57:24.239 --> 00:57:36.960
It's a horrible world, but also like the, again, just like the government, what we were talking about earlier, being willing to like spin the transactionality of lives into, you know, thinking of children as units.

712
00:57:37.019 --> 00:57:42.780
Like, there's just something really monstrous about what's going on here that has nothing to do with aliens.

713
00:57:42.840 --> 00:58:14.699
And I just think that there's something, again, like, just, that when this came out, it was just a pivot point that, like, we couldn't have foreseen what the world would become, like, either technologically, in terms of, like, broadcast, uh, the way we consume television, any of these things, like, uh, uh, uh, the fact that, you know, that Ento's, you know, computer even works in a, in a, in a, in that warehouse, like, it's crazy, like, again, I, there's just a lot happening here that, that, that, you know, we could take another 3 hours to sort, sort of unpack it all.

714
00:58:14.760 --> 00:58:25.139
I think the other thing about watching it with a, with a perspective from 2026 is thinking about John Barriman's reputation and what's happened to that.

715
00:58:25.199 --> 00:58:33.000
And before we started recording, I was saying, day two, is that the one where he ends up butt naked in a quarry as that was clearly the most memorable thing?

716
00:58:33.119 --> 00:58:34.679
in the episode.

717
00:58:34.739 --> 00:58:38.219
And yet watching that sequence again.

718
00:58:38.280 --> 00:58:45.239
I was thinking about the production team sort of buying into Barrowman's own reputation.

719
00:58:45.300 --> 00:58:51.360
As, you know, he was, he's been criticised for his, um, his antics on set.

720
00:58:51.420 --> 00:58:55.500
There's been a whole sort of, there's been a whole sort of postmodem on all that.

721
00:58:55.559 --> 00:59:01.980
Um, but before that happened, he was sort of cheeky chap, he was sort of, uh, he was sort of rude.

722
00:59:02.039 --> 00:59:03.119
He was all those sort of things.

723
00:59:03.179 --> 00:59:11.099
And I wondered, do you do you write, I think you write that last scene of them in the quarry and him crawling out and they could, kind of knowing that's his persona.

724
00:59:11.159 --> 00:59:16.260
Kind of understanding that that's the sort of actor he is and we can get him to do that. you know.

725
00:59:16.320 --> 00:59:18.659
And so it's having to be naked on the set.

726
00:59:18.719 --> 00:59:20.940
Yeah, so I think it's an artefact of its time.

727
00:59:21.000 --> 00:59:30.000
It shows that actually there was something, um, something understood, I think, about his his reputation and what that meant for the program.

728
00:59:30.119 --> 00:59:36.539
I think, though, too, there is, you know, that that he's reduced in this episode.

729
00:59:36.599 --> 00:59:37.559
Do you know what I mean?

730
00:59:37.619 --> 00:59:42.179
Like, literally reduced to just kind of a bag of bits, I think Johnson says.

731
00:59:42.179 --> 00:59:49.380
And so when he emerges, he's he's naked, but he's not sexy naked in any way.

732
00:59:49.380 --> 00:59:54.900
And and he's filthy and kind of dogged and stuff.

733
00:59:54.960 --> 01:00:07.079
And, you know, like I made that crack about how, you know, Gwen is trying desperately not to look at him, like to try and look away, even though she knows what it looks like by that point.

734
01:00:07.139 --> 01:00:11.219
And then he, you know, takes the jacket and doesn't cover himself.

735
01:00:11.280 --> 01:00:19.679
And he just goes, screw it and just walks doggedly towards the car through the mud, you know, like, but I think, I mean, I'm interested.

736
01:00:19.739 --> 01:00:25.800
Yeah, it's interesting to talk about whether that's a kind of a deliberate choice from knowing, you know, the production knowing what kind of actor he is.

737
01:00:25.860 --> 01:00:32.820
I'm sort of wondering whether it's partly the way he chooses to shoot the scene because that is the kind of actor that he walks like that.

738
01:00:32.880 --> 01:00:42.119
But also Gwen kind of, the way she looks away and kind of, she almost kind of glances heavenward when he just walks up to a completely naked and he, and she hands him the coat.

739
01:00:42.179 --> 01:00:48.599
It's that thing of like, you know, oh, for God's sake, Jack, of course that you're going to walk towards me naked, not caring.

740
01:00:48.659 --> 01:00:51.480
Like, you know, for God's sake, put it, put it, put something on.

741
01:00:51.539 --> 01:00:52.260
You know what I mean?

742
01:00:52.320 --> 01:00:54.659
Like, I'm almost seeing that as well in it.

743
01:00:54.719 --> 01:01:02.940
And also remember, if he is an entity that's like, you know, 100s and 100s and 100s of years old, it's not unreasonable that he's completely relaxed to do that.

744
01:01:03.000 --> 01:01:07.260
But, I mean, he has been just kind of physically humiliated and so on.

745
01:01:07.260 --> 01:01:07.800
Do you know what I mean?

746
01:01:07.860 --> 01:01:15.960
Like he's literally reduced her, this sort of gory skeleton. in this episode. and and so and he's tired and all of that.

747
01:01:16.019 --> 01:01:18.119
Like, I think there's a defeat there.

748
01:01:18.179 --> 01:01:21.239
And then he comes back from that defeat, I think.

749
01:01:21.300 --> 01:01:24.000
And that's one of the things that I definitely wanted to talk about.

750
01:01:24.059 --> 01:01:41.940
And I was talking about it earlier about how, you know, one of the things about Berman's sort of fraught legacy, uh, but one thing that is not deniable is that in these 5 episodes, you know, whether however he or Gwen choose to play certain moments, the character is written as almost explicitly non-heroic.

751
01:01:42.059 --> 01:02:05.940
Like the Jack character is sidelined for most of for most of the 5 episodes, and he's never, in any, in anyone's mouth or anyone's mind, especially his, his, uh, his daughter, um, like he's never presented as someone who is heroic or a role model or anyone that we should want to look up to or want to emulate in really almost any way conceivable.

752
01:02:06.000 --> 01:02:10.619
Uh, and that, that, you know, we were talking about, you know, his body being shown not being sexy.

753
01:02:10.679 --> 01:02:17.460
The other body that's shown in this episode is Johnny's body when they, when the soldiers go through the, are going through the apartment.

754
01:02:17.519 --> 01:02:18.659
That's also not very sexy.

755
01:02:18.719 --> 01:02:36.360
But one of the things about, you know, it goes to what I was going to say earlier about masculinity and the way that masculinity and femininity are delineated in children of earth, is that for whatever reason, it is women who are competent, stable, physical, capable.

756
01:02:36.420 --> 01:02:53.159
I mean, you see with when when we were talking about Gwen earlier, like Gwen, her character is written in such a way that she can go from, you know, 2 guns blazing to having a, you know, uh, to having that sort of tender, intimate moment with Reese in the potato truck, like within within moments of each other.

757
01:02:53.219 --> 01:03:04.019
Like, there's something really, I don't know, there's something more complex about the way that women are written in this particular series that really, like, that really stood out to me on this rewatch.

758
01:03:04.079 --> 01:03:11.760
And I think it's something that we should hash out at least a little bit, at least in the way that it happens in this episode, because we have so many, like you were saying, we have a panoply of characters.

759
01:03:11.820 --> 01:03:27.659
And, I mean, it's also almost in a way, like the Russell, the RTD version of sort of the Canterbury Tales, children of Earth, because Dryden or Dryden, John Dryden, the poet said of Chaucer's Canterbury Tales, here is God's plenty.

760
01:03:27.719 --> 01:03:33.719
In other words, like here is like, you're going to see everything that there is about humanity in the course of this work.

761
01:03:33.780 --> 01:03:37.619
And I feel like children of earth gives us a cast like that.

762
01:03:37.679 --> 01:03:43.079
And again, the way that the men and the women are delineated, really plays a huge part in the structure of that world.

763
01:03:43.199 --> 01:03:51.960
I think, you know, the one person who knows Jack more than anyone else who we had never heard of and is part of, you know, that secret life is Alice.

764
01:03:51.960 --> 01:03:57.360
And when Alice describes him, she just says, you're dangerous.

765
01:03:57.420 --> 01:04:00.119
You know, you're not experimenting on my son.

766
01:04:00.179 --> 01:04:03.179
You know, you have to stay away.

767
01:04:03.239 --> 01:04:05.400
This is why I ask you to stay away.

768
01:04:05.460 --> 01:04:11.820
And so the conclusion, I think, is inevitable and not unexpected.

769
01:04:11.820 --> 01:04:14.699
And I think it works extremely well.

770
01:04:14.699 --> 01:04:20.760
And we'll get there because I think there's a good deal of moral complexity around all of that.

771
01:04:20.820 --> 01:04:31.920
It's interesting, though, if I can just get back to Barriman's nakedness in the quarry, is that, I mean, you say sort of it's not sexy and I don't think that's, I mean, I don't know about that.

772
01:04:31.980 --> 01:04:35.579
I just think he just needed to, he work out a bit more.

773
01:04:35.639 --> 01:04:39.300
Oh, no, no, I don't mean it's not sexy because he's like physically flabby or anything like that.

774
01:04:39.360 --> 01:04:40.619
I don't care about that at all.

775
01:04:40.679 --> 01:04:52.199
Um, I, but it's not sexy naked in the way that the previous, the previous time that Russell tried to get Barrowman's butt crack on BBC One was...

776
01:04:52.260 --> 01:04:56.099
Yeah, the Trini and Susana scene, where he was not permitted to have the butt crack.

777
01:04:56.460 --> 01:04:58.139
But he couldn't.

778
01:04:58.199 --> 01:05:00.719
Right And so I think he wants to have it here.

779
01:05:00.780 --> 01:05:03.420
And that is sexy.

780
01:05:03.480 --> 01:05:06.360
You know, like Barrowman, he's in better shape then.

781
01:05:06.420 --> 01:05:07.440
He's a few years younger.

782
01:05:07.440 --> 01:05:08.579
But it's not just that.

783
01:05:08.699 --> 01:05:13.320
It is that it's about him being swaggeringly confident and happy with being naked.

784
01:05:13.440 --> 01:05:21.659
He's doing it in front of these women, like who are not cowered by him, but it is in a situation where he's, you know, being cocky for want of a better word.

785
01:05:21.719 --> 01:05:22.800
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

786
01:05:22.860 --> 01:05:27.780
And that, whereas here he's just tired and filthy and slow moving.

787
01:05:27.840 --> 01:05:28.920
Yes, yes, yes, yes.

788
01:05:36.659 --> 01:05:40.800
It's a Melbourne's point about our gender's portrayed.

789
01:05:40.860 --> 01:05:55.619
Actually, I think, for me, the fact is that we have male and female characters, both being heroic and capable and villainous and all of those sort of things, it's not drawn attention to, it's just there.

790
01:05:55.679 --> 01:06:03.719
And I think that that's the delineation, that, um, you know, you could, you could have a female prime minister if you wanted.

791
01:06:03.780 --> 01:06:05.579
You could have a female frobisher if you wanted.

792
01:06:05.639 --> 01:06:11.340
You could have a, you know, you could, it's not presented as anything other than this is the norm.

793
01:06:11.460 --> 01:06:21.900
You know, that that both men and women have uh, have a role in both villainy and in heroism in this, in this world, the children of earth is set in.

794
01:06:21.900 --> 01:06:27.059
I mean, if there's a villain, it's Frobisher, isn't it?

795
01:06:27.119 --> 01:06:30.239
Like, if you want to just sort of put your finger on someone.

796
01:06:30.300 --> 01:06:31.980
He's the one who does the blank page.

797
01:06:32.039 --> 01:06:37.500
He's the one who is sending people to kill Jack and Yanto and Gwen.

798
01:06:37.559 --> 01:06:39.780
In a sense, he's the villain.

799
01:06:39.840 --> 01:06:45.239
And then later on in the series, we're going to get Bridget speech about him being a good man.

800
01:06:45.239 --> 01:06:48.000
And what does any of that mean?

801
01:06:48.059 --> 01:06:50.400
And, you know, he's a father.

802
01:06:50.460 --> 01:06:52.920
He's concerned for his children, all of that stuff.

803
01:06:52.980 --> 01:06:55.739
Yeah, but that's what makes it an adult drama.

804
01:06:55.739 --> 01:06:56.280
Exactly right.

805
01:06:56.340 --> 01:06:59.159
Because of the fact that he's not sitting there swelling his moustache.

806
01:06:59.219 --> 01:07:01.019
And he's not even doing what he thinks is right.

807
01:07:01.079 --> 01:07:08.219
He's doing what he knows to be wrong because he thinks that there is a greater good that will be served from it.

808
01:07:08.280 --> 01:07:11.519
And he's terribly uncomfortable doing all those things.

809
01:07:11.579 --> 01:07:18.719
He doesn't hand the paper, the blank, the file with the blank paper, with glee, with wow, we're going to kill them all.

810
01:07:18.780 --> 01:07:21.719
It is he's not happy doing it.

811
01:07:21.780 --> 01:07:24.300
He's not happy doing any of that. and that's what makes it interesting.

812
01:07:24.360 --> 01:07:31.440
That's the kind of villain, quote unquote, that I want to see because I want to see that they've got, they are doing this for a greater purpose.

813
01:07:31.500 --> 01:07:34.380
But maybe it isn't even that, though, too.

814
01:07:34.440 --> 01:07:38.519
Maybe it isn't that he's aware of a greater purpose here. aware of it hopeful.

815
01:07:38.579 --> 01:07:40.800
Well, or, do you know what I mean?

816
01:07:40.860 --> 01:07:41.340
I'm trapped.

817
01:07:41.340 --> 01:07:41.880
This is all...

818
01:07:41.880 --> 01:07:42.420
That's exactly it.

819
01:07:42.539 --> 01:07:45.539
Because you have the contrast between him and Lois.

820
01:07:45.599 --> 01:07:45.960
Yes.

821
01:07:45.960 --> 01:07:49.860
There's all this institutional history that he has that Lois doesn't have.

822
01:07:49.920 --> 01:07:52.860
So Lois is free to commit treason on Tuesday.

823
01:07:52.920 --> 01:07:53.820
Yes.

824
01:07:53.820 --> 01:07:55.920
After starting work on Monday.

825
01:07:55.980 --> 01:07:58.320
Whereas he can't do any of that.

826
01:07:58.320 --> 01:07:58.980
He's far too gone.

827
01:07:59.039 --> 01:07:59.880
He's far too gone.

828
01:07:59.940 --> 01:08:02.519
And that is always something more interesting to them.

829
01:08:02.579 --> 01:08:05.639
That's why going back to what I said earlier about the Prime Minister's characterisation.

830
01:08:05.699 --> 01:08:07.260
That's like He's a little bit too evil.

831
01:08:07.320 --> 01:08:08.579
It's like, no, no, no, no, no, no.

832
01:08:08.639 --> 01:08:15.780
That's why I think that the Prime Minister's characterisation earlier is poor because it's just it's cardboard.

833
01:08:15.840 --> 01:08:25.619
Well, in fact, I think there's a really a fairly weak speech in episode one where he says that, you know, I feel like I'm undersieged from above.

834
01:08:25.680 --> 01:08:30.180
There are constant aliens here and you kind of think, oh, so you're evil for space reasons.

835
01:08:31.020 --> 01:08:35.340
So, and I'm right thinking, because I haven't watched it, the rest of it.

836
01:08:35.399 --> 01:08:44.039
So they have to decide the 10% of the children have to be sent off to like be eaten by these gas creatures or whatever they are.

837
01:08:44.279 --> 01:08:47.640
And they're selected from the lower socioeconomic rungs of the thing.

838
01:08:47.699 --> 01:08:47.939
Right.

839
01:08:48.000 --> 01:08:52.800
There's a fabulous character called Denise, who says, what on earth are the school league tables for?

840
01:08:53.220 --> 01:08:58.079
Oh, that's so...

841
01:08:58.079 --> 01:09:00.000
She's left in charge at the end. by the way.

842
01:09:00.060 --> 01:09:01.739
Yeah, all right, okay, okay, okay.

843
01:09:01.800 --> 01:09:02.699
Yes, yeah.

844
01:09:02.760 --> 01:09:04.979
And it's not, it's not to be eaten.

845
01:09:05.039 --> 01:09:07.500
They're to be used as recreational drugs.

846
01:09:07.560 --> 01:09:09.659
Right, well, consumed in some way.

847
01:09:09.720 --> 01:09:10.920
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

848
01:09:10.979 --> 01:09:14.279
But nevertheless, is that done in a way which is we have to do this.

849
01:09:14.340 --> 01:09:17.760
We have to sacrifice 10% of our children so that the other 90% can survive.

850
01:09:17.880 --> 01:09:23.520
Yes, but there's very much a no one around this table is going to be affected by what happens.

851
01:09:23.579 --> 01:09:24.600
How do we make sure that no?

852
01:09:24.659 --> 01:09:25.500
Yeah, yeah, that's right.

853
01:09:25.560 --> 01:09:34.500
And that's why, and that's, and that makes, and that makes Frobisher's character, not even really a, a villain so much as a tragic, like, I mean, it's a proper credit.

854
01:09:34.500 --> 01:09:35.039
He's horrified.

855
01:09:35.039 --> 01:09:53.880
Sorry, it really, it really got me because I had forgotten, like, I remembered that he, and sorry, spoilers for a 17-year-old show, uh, that he commits suicide, but I had forgotten that he, it's, and if he had waited 20 minutes, if he had wait, that it's, it's, it's terrible to watch.

856
01:09:53.939 --> 01:09:59.640
And like that was the word that came into my mind when I watched it, it was just, it's tragic what happens to him.

857
01:09:59.699 --> 01:10:11.340
But again, like, but he is a career civil servant, and this is like, there's, it's the, you know, to, to, to, uh, uh, reuse, uh, uh, a very tired phrase, the sort of banality of evil.

858
01:10:11.399 --> 01:10:13.439
It's not even, it's not even evil.

859
01:10:13.500 --> 01:10:16.079
It's just function. he just a functionary.

860
01:10:16.140 --> 01:10:17.460
He's just doing his job.

861
01:10:18.000 --> 01:10:26.399
And that's, it's that sort of tragedy, which is, I think, why, as I said before, this is why it makes it a grown-up drama.

862
01:10:26.460 --> 01:10:42.779
And I think it's sometimes even though, you know, Doctor Who's a family show. when Doctor Who is, it is at its best, we see aspects of this, not to the same degree, but we see this sort of stuff in it, they're always, for me, the stronger stories because there's a sense of, as well as a sense of right and wrong.

863
01:10:42.840 --> 01:10:47.399
There's a sense of people struggling to make the right choice as opposed to just being evil.

864
01:10:47.520 --> 01:10:51.539
I mean, sometimes the villain's just a billionaire who wants to have sex with a plant, though.

865
01:10:51.600 --> 01:10:52.619
And that's fine, I think.

866
01:11:20.159 --> 01:11:23.039
Well, that's over time we'll have for this week.

867
01:11:23.100 --> 01:11:29.399
We'll be back next week for a ringside seat with the 456 in Torchwood Children of Earth, day three.

868
01:11:29.520 --> 01:11:48.600
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts, and you can keep up with us on our website, 500yearDiary.com, where you'll find our social media links, as well as links to all of our other podcasts, including the entirety of flight or entirety, which comprises every episode of our 4 Doctor Who podcasts.

869
01:11:48.840 --> 01:11:56.220
Until next time, remember to always touch up your Lippy before withdrawing money from the automatic telemachine.

870
01:11:56.279 --> 01:11:58.079
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

871
01:11:58.140 --> 01:11:59.279
Good night.

872
01:11:59.340 --> 01:12:00.239
Good night.

873
01:12:00.300 --> 01:12:00.899
Bye bye.

874
01:12:11.399 --> 01:12:17.939
That was 500 Year Diary, starring Nathan Bottomley, Simon Moore, Melvin Penya, and Johnny Spandrel.

875
01:12:18.000 --> 01:12:20.220
The theme was composed by Cameron Lamb.

876
01:12:20.279 --> 01:12:22.439
This episode, Treason on Tuesday.

877
01:12:22.500 --> 01:12:26.939
It was recorded on the 1st of March, 2026 and released on the 22nd of March.

878
01:12:27.000 --> 01:12:44.159
Fans of British TV will enjoy the latest episode of the three-handed game, in which our very own Brendan and Richard interview Australian actress Annette Andre, who had a long career in British and Australian television, including an episode each of the Avengers and the new Avengers.

879
01:12:44.279 --> 01:12:47.760
Search for the 3 handed game wherever you get your podcasts.

880
01:12:57.720 --> 01:13:00.119
And that's the hardest thing.

881
01:13:00.119 --> 01:13:00.960
I'm sorry.

882
01:13:00.960 --> 01:13:03.659
I want to go out.

883
01:13:03.720 --> 01:13:05.460
The hardest thing when you get there.

884
01:13:05.760 --> 01:13:16.859
And that's the hardest thing when you get there, Simon, is that the choice he has to make, he makes because he knows he knows what's going to happen to the children and it is...

885
01:13:16.920 --> 01:13:18.779
It's one of the most awful things I've ever seen.

886
01:13:18.840 --> 01:13:21.659
Like, I just, I did not remember how awful that was.

887
01:13:21.720 --> 01:13:22.800
Yeah.

888
01:13:22.859 --> 01:13:26.699
And in another reading of it, the villain is is Jack, right?

889
01:13:26.760 --> 01:13:33.479
Because he's the one who made a terrible choice years ago, which has all, yeah, and these repercussions later on.

890
01:13:33.659 --> 01:13:40.560
Though it is, you know, again, we keep using this term adult drama when we might just use the term drama.

891
01:13:40.619 --> 01:13:47.880
But the, um, but one of the great things about it is that it's difficult to pinpoint exactly who is in the wrong, exactly.

892
01:13:47.880 --> 01:13:49.140
Children of Earth. you know.

893
01:13:49.260 --> 01:14:03.479
Yeah, I mean, I think there's there's very, you know, there are people who are openly heroic like Rhiannon and Lois, I think, you know, are both like Rhiannon is is saving everyone's children, so they can go to work.

894
01:14:03.899 --> 01:14:10.800
And on that last day where she sends kids out to say quick, you know, because she knows that they're coming for the children.

895
01:14:10.920 --> 01:14:13.619
Like Yanto has said, don't let them get David and Misha.

896
01:14:13.859 --> 01:14:19.260
And so she saves, like, tries to save everyone's children on the estate.

897
01:14:19.260 --> 01:14:27.000
And like, and that's a tremendous, you know, and I think that's the real high point of episode 5 when all this horrible stuff is happening.

898
01:14:27.060 --> 01:14:30.600
And Lois, you know, like who is just a solidly good person.

899
01:14:30.600 --> 01:14:32.579
And, and there's that thing.

900
01:14:32.640 --> 01:14:36.060
I didn't sign the official Secrets Act, so I could cover up murder.

901
01:14:36.119 --> 01:14:37.800
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

902
01:14:37.859 --> 01:14:41.340
Like, uh, like it's, it's pretty great and she is, she's pretty good.

903
01:14:41.399 --> 01:14:44.819
It's so good I don't know when she's had time to sign the official secrets.

904
01:14:44.880 --> 01:14:46.140
She only started on Monday.

905
01:14:46.199 --> 01:14:47.340
Well, no one even knows her.

906
01:14:47.399 --> 01:14:53.220
Like, it's just like that you employed her and now Bridget's going, hello, I'm Lois, I think, because you didn't meet her at the job interview.

907
01:14:53.279 --> 01:14:54.840
Okay, HR.

908
01:14:54.840 --> 01:14:56.939
And HR got to the same...

909
01:14:57.000 --> 01:14:59.340
See, it was an orientation day last.

910
01:14:59.399 --> 01:15:02.039
Okay, all right. and got her swipe.

911
01:15:02.819 --> 01:15:09.119
Well, and that's the other computer password. she's asked to provide with computer password, yes.

912
01:15:09.420 --> 01:15:36.720
And that's one of the other things that comes up, you know, again, it's a very minor theme, but it is a theme throughout the, throughout the, throughout the series is, again, like the, the way that, the way that governments are run, you know, the way that, and it's all governments because, you know, we see when the Americans come and stick their head in, including the, the general from America who shows up again in the war between the land and the sea column, is that Colin McFarlane?

913
01:15:36.779 --> 01:15:39.239
Uh, I think that's who plays that.

914
01:15:39.300 --> 01:15:42.180
He's really good He's much better in this than.

915
01:15:42.300 --> 01:15:49.020
But isn't Colin McFarlane to see the character in, um, the, is he the ghost guy in, um...

916
01:15:49.079 --> 01:15:49.500
Same guy.

917
01:15:49.739 --> 01:15:50.279
Is it the same guy?

918
01:15:50.279 --> 01:15:51.840
Yeah, the same guy.

919
01:15:51.899 --> 01:15:52.680
Yeah, yes, yes, yeah.

920
01:15:52.739 --> 01:15:53.279
Yeah, yeah.

921
01:15:53.340 --> 01:16:04.079
But the, you know, there is, again, there's a sense in which the governments of the world are, and again, it's something that looking back at it from, as, as Johnny was saying from 2026.

922
01:16:04.319 --> 01:16:17.279
Like we, like we know that they cover, that they, you know, the governments, you know, have, you know, their own sort of self-interest, economic interests, that have nothing to do with the running of the actual running of government.

923
01:16:17.279 --> 01:16:24.119
So that, you know, the hiring practises have their own sort of like, it's its own functional thing so that people will slip through the cracks.

924
01:16:24.180 --> 01:16:30.000
So these sort of lapses of security are almost inevitable, inevitably going to happen.

925
01:16:30.060 --> 01:16:40.380
So, I mean, this is part of it as well, is that, you know, if government were, you know, uh, uh, uh, focussed on the things that government should be focussed on, which is the welfare and well-being of the people.

926
01:16:40.439 --> 01:16:48.539
I mean, that's, you know, when Denise has that line about the league tables, like, if, you know, if the education system worked, like, this wouldn't be a problem.

927
01:16:48.600 --> 01:17:03.000
Like all of these things happen, uh, uh, are cascading issues over, you know, decades of, of, of government bloat and and, and malfeasance and, you know, ignorance. think that's cool.

928
01:17:04.260 --> 01:17:19.439
That, um, that saying, the, the murder suicide, for God's sake, is so unbelievably brutal, and it's done while Bridget is having the speech about what a good man he is.

929
01:17:19.500 --> 01:17:22.319
Like it's really, it's terribly well done.

930
01:17:22.380 --> 01:17:23.699
Brutal.

931
01:17:23.760 --> 01:17:28.079
And that's the thing is, like, it almost feels like when she's saying talking about how good he is.

932
01:17:28.140 --> 01:17:34.319
She means that he's like, it almost feels like she's talking about him in his in his job role.

933
01:17:34.439 --> 01:17:34.739
Yeah.

934
01:17:34.739 --> 01:17:36.659
Like, he's he's he's a good man.

935
01:17:36.720 --> 01:17:37.800
Like, he shows up.

936
01:17:37.859 --> 01:17:42.720
He does his work, like, that it's almost, you know, the way that she's defining good.

937
01:17:42.779 --> 01:17:46.260
Yeah, I think that's different than the way that we that we're understanding it.

938
01:17:46.380 --> 01:17:47.340
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

939
01:17:47.460 --> 01:17:48.180
So he's so good.

940
01:17:48.239 --> 01:17:50.399
He goes, and thanks to the prime minister for the opportunity.

941
01:17:50.460 --> 01:17:54.659
And that's the goodness that she's referring to, but he's a, that he's compliant.

942
01:17:54.720 --> 01:18:02.159
Because when the prime minister tells him to do it, There's one moment where you kind of think, like, why does he not flip the desk?

943
01:18:02.220 --> 01:18:05.220
What does he have to lose at this point, there's no one in the room with him.

944
01:18:05.340 --> 01:18:06.539
Do you know what I mean?

945
01:18:06.600 --> 01:18:07.500
It can't get worse.

946
01:18:07.560 --> 01:18:12.779
I guess that the prime minister says, well, we'll just take your children without you.

947
01:18:12.840 --> 01:18:14.159
Do you know what I mean?

948
01:18:14.220 --> 01:18:17.159
Like the thread, like is kind of inescapable.

949
01:18:17.220 --> 01:18:18.300
Yeah.

950
01:18:18.300 --> 01:18:18.600
Yeah.

951
01:18:18.659 --> 01:18:21.479
Yeah. sort of dread inevitability.

952
01:18:21.539 --> 01:18:21.960
Yeah.

953
01:18:22.020 --> 01:18:22.920
Yeah.

954
01:18:22.979 --> 01:18:24.119
And it's so cruel.

955
01:18:24.180 --> 01:18:25.020
It's so petty.

956
01:18:25.079 --> 01:18:26.220
Like it's not needed.

957
01:18:26.460 --> 01:18:27.960
You know?

958
01:18:28.020 --> 01:18:30.539
He's just doing it because he can.

959
01:18:30.600 --> 01:18:32.699
And he said he will in episode two.

960
01:18:32.760 --> 01:18:34.439
That's what he's saying in episode two.

961
01:18:34.500 --> 01:18:35.699
I'll just do this to you.

962
01:18:35.760 --> 01:18:37.619
You're the first person to fall.