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This transcript was created on 2026-05-03 at 08:52:59

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to 500 year diary, the only

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Doctor Who podcast that's 24% nitrousyl chloride, 21% hydrogen

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chloride, 19% nitrogen, 11% fluorine, 8% hydrogen cyanide, 6

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acetone, 6% phos gene, and 5% love.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Johnny.

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I'm Melvin.

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And I'm Simon.

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It's Tuesday, the 7th of July, 2009.

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It's been just 23 hours since the 456 announced their return, and

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tonight about 6000000 people have tuned in to watch the

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preparations.

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So let's see how things go as we discuss Torchwood, children of

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Earth, day two.

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So, I'm gonna talk about the reprise.

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I'm gonna talk about the reprise.

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Whoever cut the reprise together did a brilliant job because all

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the way through the reprise.

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We get the children saying, we are coming, we are coming, even

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when there's other dialogue happening, where there's other scenes

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we don't see the children.

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And that was essentially the thing that you needed to sell to

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capture that 1st episode.

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It's so cleverly done.

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Yeah, so I went to a rewatch episode one, day one, we should be

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calling it, shouldn't we?

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I went to rewatch day one.

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I haven't watched these episodes since they 1st went out.

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Then I realised I hadn't watched any of Torchwood since it last

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went out, and that got me thinking about why I haven't chosen to

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revisit it, but I was glad to watch day one before day 2 because

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it, you know, in a 5 episode thing, you've got to kind of watch

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every bit of it.

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It's got to set it up nicely.

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There's not much time to waste.

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And day one strike me is not that far away from Doctor Who of the

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time.

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It had that kind of uh, jaunty feel about it.

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And my memory of children of earth was that it was really, really

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dark.

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But I think in these earlier episodes, it's like it's graduating

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to that place.

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You know, it's it's getting a little bit darker each each

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episode.

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Yeah, me too.

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I didn't, I haven't watched this since it was on.

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I haven't watched any Torchwood since it was on, and why haven't I

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gone back to it?

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I never really thought it was very good.

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I thought there was some good bits to it, but broadly speaking, I

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thought it didn't quite reach whatever potential it might have

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had.

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But I do remember when children of Earth came along that we all

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thought, wow, we finally got somewhere.

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We finally watching something, which is reaching a potential, the

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potential that it had.

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And I think, yes, it is darker.

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It's still got a jauntiness to it.

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Like there's lots of jokes, particularly with kind of, you know

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some basically comedy relief characters that are kind of thrown in

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usually with Welsh accents to add to the comedy, but it's so, um, I

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think one of the reasons why this is much more successful than the

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seasons that came before it is because there's this wonderful

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build of mystery of what's happening.

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We don't know what's going on and you're drip fed certain

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information.

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You've got a few well-placed red herrings.

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And so by the time you get to day 2 of it, Even though not a huge

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amount happens, I suppose, plot wise.

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You're still getting drip fed more bits of information, which

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really make it very, very engaging and very, very gripping.

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Despite John Barriman, barely being in it.

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But we can talk about that later.

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Well, this is the thing.

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Much like Johnny and Simon, I also have not seen Torchwood TV

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Torchwood in quite a while.

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I've listened to quite a few torchwood audios, and one of the

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things about Torchwood is actually not dissimilar to what you

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could say about some of the Star Trek series that, you know, as

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they go along, they build, you build the cast, you build

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relationships with them.

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And I feel like this is the season where it bears its most fruit.

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And, and oddly, like in, in, in the afterlife of Torchwood, it's

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become even more.

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I think torchwood, if that makes any sense, through the big finish

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audios, which are actually going to wrap up.

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I think the very last one ever comes out in a month or 2 from

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now.

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But of course, Torchwood also has a really fraught legacy because

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of John Barrowman.

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And so one of the things that I, rewatching this series that I

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came to terms with, or came to grips with is the extent to which

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children of Earth, and especially, especially day two, especially

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the one we're looking at today, is proof of concept for how

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Torchwood.

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I don't know if the word is exists or excels or becomes what it's

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supposed to be, without Barrowman.

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If that makes any sense, like this is proof of concept for

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everything Torchwood became afterwards.

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I mean, and accepting Miracle Day.

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I mean, it very definitely starts off or maybe day one ends with

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the destruction of torchwood in all sorts of ways.

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So with the destruction of the hub, which Gwen describes as a

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science fiction superbase in Italian one, the level of realism

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suddenly increases.

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You know, we don't have a big space with a pterodactyl in it, which

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was always great, but not really a great fit for something that is

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aiming at being adult.

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You know, in a way, it is just a sort of slightly dressed up

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version of Doctor Who.

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You've still got a big, weird set.

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You have an immortal time traveller.

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All of those sort of heightened performances. heightened

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performances.

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All of that.

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And that starts to go away here.

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And the other thing it does too, is it turns Jack's ability to

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cheat death into something much, much more horrific and terrifying

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than it had been before.

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And, like, I know he's been sort of buried for a century or

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something towards the end of series 2 and I only know that because

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I looked it up on TARDIS Wikia, not because I revisited Torchwood

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particularly.

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But this thing where he's just regenerated.

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I think I joked before I rewatched it that he'd regenerated from a

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single buttock.

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But he regenerates from sort of a head and an arm and a bitch.

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But in a way that's gruesome and terrifying.

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And obviously painful.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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But it's also shot like a horror film.

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You know, the thing where the body bag starts inflating and

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Johnson and that guy are watching it over the CCTV and then they

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come in and then he's like a skeleton and stuff.

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Like it makes him horrifying and and yeah, like he screams.

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It's not his usual, that terrible thing that he decides to do

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presumably for the 1st time in parting of the ways when he does

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that.

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You know, I'm alive again, which is just dreadful and then he has

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to do it over and over again.

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Whereas this time when he wakes up, he's just screaming in pain.

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Like it, so even that conceit, which is a very silly kind of

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science fiction, high concept, conceit becomes a source of fear

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and horror and has kind of reinterpreted in a more kind of grown

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up way, I think.

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Yeah, I think, I mean, I said this at the time when Torchwood was

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going out that the problem with those 1st 2 seasons and I think

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that they make the mistake elsewhere is when they think doing

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adult, or when I say adults, I mean, you know, mature, something's

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supposed to be a mature drama for adults to watch.

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It's just nothing like it should be because it's just Doctor Who

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but with people being a bit nasty to each other and a bit of sex

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involved.

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Whereas it just comes across to me is like it was being written by

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like a sort of a spotty 14 year old who thinks that they're grown

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up, but they're actually not.

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Whereas this, you're right, it does start to feel like, yes, this

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is actually a drama that's designed for someone of my age to

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watch.

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Well, you said, Simon, at the very start that not a lot happens in

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episode one, but what does happen, and Nathan, you were pointing

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it out during the reprise, is the children all talking in unison

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and one of the things that is for sure adult or mature about

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torturewood children of earth, is that the stakes and what's going

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on is it's real in a way that it never has been before.

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That the children are under, like the children of Earth, as it

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were, are under threat, are are in peril. or being used, yes

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yeah.

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Yeah, and so that's the thing is, like, this is something that

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Doctor Who sort of can't do and hasn't done, like, that there's

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something that there's something really horrible about reaching

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into, like, literally what, uh, Mrs. Frobisher says, I think, here

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in episode two.

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This is in my home.

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These are my children.

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Like, that is what is real.

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That is that is mature science fiction plotting.

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I think that's it.

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And I think the real adult concern here is children, right?

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And like when we were watching this as young people, you know, when

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we were watching this when we were much younger, um, it's hard to

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get.

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So I talked about adults when we were watching it now.

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We were, but we were younger.

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Yes, but we were still quite old.

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But in any case, shut up.

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In any case, I said this last week that there are Doctor Who fans

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who don't like seeing children in Doctor Who.

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But one of the reasons that I do like it. who you're talking

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about.

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See also space babies.

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I do like it is because having children is a particular adult

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concern.

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And I said this last week, I have never, I don't have children.

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I have never had to look after a child or been responsible for a

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child.

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I've never loved a child, like in the way that a parent loves

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their children.

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I've never had that experience.

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And I think that children of earth hits harder for people who have

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is my understanding of it as well.

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That the real adult concern here isn't sex, gas, or yeah, picking

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people up at nightclubs and stuff.

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It's being apparent.

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It's being responsible for children and worried about children.

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That's a proper adult concern.

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And so this is, I think, for that reason, more adult than

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Torchwood has been.

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I think the reason people don't like children, Doctor Who, is when

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the children are lead characters as opposed to ancillary

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characters.

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And they're not characters.

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They're not characters here.

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They're just, you know...

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I think that you're right.

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The, the, the threat to the children is something which makes this

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feel more, um, adds weight to it.

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So it does make you feel like this is more of an adult drama that

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you're watching.

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But I think there's a couple of other things which make this just

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better drama than the monster of the week format that Torchwood

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had been for the last couple of years.

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And there's, it's that the 2 main threats.

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One that the government is is conspiring against tortured, and 2

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that the 456 are coming, both feel inevitable and it makes you

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feel powerless.

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And they're very, they're very, in a funny kind of way, they're

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very adult things to be frightened of.

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You're meant to be in control of your world.

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And yet here are 2 things.

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They're the 2 main potlines in day two.

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That you feel trapped in, you feel powerless in.

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You can't do anything about this.

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And so that's, for me, what makes it more, say, a more satisfying

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piece of drama than, say, cyberwoman.

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What a fascinating example.

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It's also it's this interesting thing about tortured about how

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quickly it develops over 4 seasons.

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So it goes from BBC 3 to BBC 2.

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This is its 1st on BBC One.

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It changes format in a way that Doctor Who has never changed

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format until maybe flux.

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You know, it, it, it adopts a form which is actually much closer

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to what we watch on streaming services now.

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It feels, you know, the direction feels of its time, the design

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feels of its time, the performance feels full time.

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Its format feels like something you might watch on Netflix.

248
00:12:43.320 --> 00:12:45.480
And then it moves to the US.

249
00:12:45.539 --> 00:12:47.820
Again, something Doctor Who never did.

250
00:12:47.879 --> 00:12:54.299
And it burns out so quickly that it's hard actually to watch

251
00:12:54.299 --> 00:12:57.720
Torchwood and not think where in its trajectory is it.

252
00:12:57.720 --> 00:13:02.580
Because it's, it's gone from, it's gone from conception to burn

253
00:13:02.580 --> 00:13:04.679
out over 4 seasons so quickly.

254
00:13:04.740 --> 00:13:08.460
This is the most successful part of Torture, I think.

255
00:13:08.580 --> 00:13:12.960
My understanding is that stars had wanted to do maybe 2 more

256
00:13:12.960 --> 00:13:16.679
seasons after Miracle Day, and that the reason it didn't happen is

257
00:13:16.679 --> 00:13:21.659
that Russell had to go back to the UK to look after his husband

258
00:13:21.659 --> 00:13:23.340
who was...

259
00:13:23.399 --> 00:13:25.799
But they had both moved over like Julian Russell.

260
00:13:25.799 --> 00:13:28.799
Oh, wow. they were shooting it over there.

261
00:13:28.860 --> 00:13:32.399
So I don't think Miracle Day was a success.

262
00:13:32.460 --> 00:13:34.200
I think the season was too long.

263
00:13:34.259 --> 00:13:36.480
It had some great moments in it.

264
00:13:36.539 --> 00:13:39.360
There's one particularly good episode or 2 particularly good

265
00:13:39.360 --> 00:13:39.960
episodes.

266
00:13:40.019 --> 00:13:43.919
There's one incredible moment that I'll never forget at the end of

267
00:13:43.919 --> 00:13:48.480
the categories of life, which is just an astounding, like a just a

268
00:13:48.480 --> 00:13:51.419
devastating moment that I think surpasses what happens at the end

269
00:13:51.419 --> 00:13:52.379
of episode 4 here.

270
00:13:52.440 --> 00:13:56.159
So there are good things in it, but it's too long and too kind of

271
00:13:56.159 --> 00:13:59.340
formless and I was losing patience by the end of it, I think.

272
00:14:13.440 --> 00:14:17.700
Before we leave off children, though, like, yes, the children are

273
00:14:17.700 --> 00:14:20.340
under threat is one of the storylines, and you were saying, Nathan

274
00:14:20.340 --> 00:14:24.960
like, never having, uh, had a child either, hashtag child free, uh

275
00:14:24.960 --> 00:14:27.360
there's there's more happening here.

276
00:14:27.419 --> 00:14:30.179
Then, and again, we were talking about when we watched this when

277
00:14:30.179 --> 00:14:30.779
we were younger.

278
00:14:30.840 --> 00:14:36.779
Well, I mean, we've gone through quite a bit in the last 20, almost

279
00:14:36.779 --> 00:14:40.740
20 years or, you know, 15 to 16 years since, since children of

280
00:14:40.740 --> 00:14:43.259
Earth, and a lot of it having to do with children.

281
00:14:43.320 --> 00:14:46.019
Like there are other things in this episode that are brought out

282
00:14:46.019 --> 00:14:48.000
throughout children of Earth.

283
00:14:48.059 --> 00:14:52.259
Like you hear Johnny, uh, Ianto's, I can't remember Ianto's

284
00:14:52.259 --> 00:14:54.840
sister's name, uh, but her Rhiannon.

285
00:14:54.899 --> 00:14:58.200
But so Rhiannon's husband, Johnny, when he gets the lads to go

286
00:14:58.200 --> 00:15:02.220
shake the police car so that she can escape to get onto his

287
00:15:02.220 --> 00:15:02.700
computer.

288
00:15:02.759 --> 00:15:05.460
When they're shaking the car, they're calling the guys in the car

289
00:15:05.460 --> 00:15:06.240
pedos.

290
00:15:06.299 --> 00:15:06.779
Yeah.

291
00:15:06.779 --> 00:15:11.639
And so, I mean, this is a lot of what happens in children of Earth

292
00:15:11.639 --> 00:15:16.440
that regards children also, they do mention in episode 3 when

293
00:15:16.440 --> 00:15:19.440
they're trying to figure out who, you know, a portion which

294
00:15:19.440 --> 00:15:23.940
children are going, is, Can we get people from refugee camps?

295
00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:26.879
So, I mean, there, there, there's so much to do with children's

296
00:15:26.879 --> 00:15:30.059
welfare that has nothing to do with whether or not we're a parent

297
00:15:30.059 --> 00:15:34.500
but whether we can, you know, connect to the helplessness of

298
00:15:34.500 --> 00:15:40.080
children in, in, in underprivileged, uh, uh, disparate, uh

299
00:15:40.080 --> 00:15:41.820
diasporic backgrounds.

300
00:15:41.879 --> 00:15:45.059
Like there's a lot to do with children that is bubbling under the

301
00:15:45.059 --> 00:15:47.820
surface here that has nothing to do with alien invasions.

302
00:15:47.879 --> 00:15:51.899
So I think that that is also part of the depth of this of this as

303
00:15:51.899 --> 00:15:52.500
a drama.

304
00:15:52.559 --> 00:15:55.320
It was impossible, I think, to watch the later episodes where

305
00:15:55.320 --> 00:15:58.919
soldiers are coming in to take people's children away in episode

306
00:15:58.919 --> 00:16:00.059
five.

307
00:16:00.120 --> 00:16:04.440
Uh, we, uh, like I'm watching Starfleet Academy and the original

308
00:16:04.440 --> 00:16:07.919
sin of Starfleet Academy is where Holly Hunter's character

309
00:16:07.919 --> 00:16:11.879
separates the main character from his mother, you know, in the 1st

310
00:16:11.879 --> 00:16:12.480
episode.

311
00:16:12.480 --> 00:16:18.419
And that's like a signature thing in like both Trump era, you know

312
00:16:18.419 --> 00:16:22.019
people losing contact with their parents and in particular.

313
00:16:22.080 --> 00:16:25.679
So, so, so that's where we're going to go with this.

314
00:16:25.740 --> 00:16:29.820
There is the politics of it's the poor people's children that

315
00:16:29.820 --> 00:16:34.019
we're going to be feeding to the 452 and no one around this table

316
00:16:34.019 --> 00:16:35.700
is going to be affected.

317
00:16:35.759 --> 00:16:37.379
You know, they explicitly say that.

318
00:16:37.440 --> 00:16:42.539
Like, that's really quite, quite brutal, like unbelievably

319
00:16:42.539 --> 00:16:43.320
brutal.

320
00:16:43.379 --> 00:16:47.940
And so this is free, I think, to be more political and more angry

321
00:16:47.940 --> 00:16:50.940
than Doctor Who ever has to be.

322
00:16:51.000 --> 00:16:55.019
You know, aliens of London is cross and angry.

323
00:16:55.080 --> 00:16:58.019
I think, you know, season three. master thing.

324
00:16:58.139 --> 00:16:59.759
The tone is try today, by comparison.

325
00:16:59.820 --> 00:17:00.659
Well, yeah, yeah, yeah.

326
00:17:00.720 --> 00:17:03.899
That makes it a gag rather than a comment, a proper comment.

327
00:17:03.960 --> 00:17:04.799
Oh, no, no.

328
00:17:04.859 --> 00:17:07.259
I think there's something about doing that in a children's

329
00:17:07.259 --> 00:17:07.680
program.

330
00:17:07.740 --> 00:17:08.460
Do you know what I mean?

331
00:17:08.519 --> 00:17:09.779
Like the family, please.

332
00:17:09.839 --> 00:17:12.059
Yeah, yeah, family show.

333
00:17:12.119 --> 00:17:14.519
But like doing angry politics in a family show.

334
00:17:14.579 --> 00:17:15.960
You know, like...

335
00:17:16.019 --> 00:17:18.779
Again, we talked about how, how, how, there's only so much you can

336
00:17:18.779 --> 00:17:19.740
you can sort of take it.

337
00:17:19.799 --> 00:17:21.539
Look, I think that, and that's one of the things that I think

338
00:17:21.539 --> 00:17:26.160
makes this show feel more like it is a grown-up show is what I

339
00:17:26.160 --> 00:17:29.220
found as well is all the kind of the workings of the politics in

340
00:17:29.220 --> 00:17:32.759
the, well, the government in the, I mean, Peter Capaldi's office.

341
00:17:32.819 --> 00:17:34.559
You know, it's all cramped.

342
00:17:34.619 --> 00:17:36.119
There's not enough space for all the people who are working

343
00:17:36.119 --> 00:17:36.299
there.

344
00:17:36.359 --> 00:17:38.339
There's constant phone calls going in and out. people sort of

345
00:17:38.339 --> 00:17:38.819
rushing around.

346
00:17:38.880 --> 00:17:45.480
And for me, that all feels much better than what we get with War

347
00:17:45.480 --> 00:17:48.359
Between, for instance, which is all kind of this very heightened

348
00:17:48.359 --> 00:17:51.660
sort of somewhat ridiculous way that everything seems to be

349
00:17:51.660 --> 00:17:51.900
working.

350
00:17:51.960 --> 00:17:56.759
I think it's let down by the fact that the Prime Minister is a bit

351
00:17:56.759 --> 00:17:59.400
too Machiavelli, and I think it would have been more interesting

352
00:17:59.400 --> 00:18:04.019
if when Capaldi approaches him to say what's happening in the 1st

353
00:18:04.019 --> 00:18:06.779
sequence, which is likely in the 1st episode.

354
00:18:06.839 --> 00:18:09.839
The Prime Minister actually knows absolutely nothing about it.

355
00:18:09.839 --> 00:18:12.720
It's, and that would be kind of like a deep state thing.

356
00:18:12.779 --> 00:18:14.819
Like, this is the sort of thing that's been going on for 40 odd

357
00:18:14.819 --> 00:18:16.259
years or whatever it's supposed to have been at the time.

358
00:18:16.319 --> 00:18:19.440
And, you know, you've actually been approving this, but you don't

359
00:18:19.440 --> 00:18:21.420
know you have, and that would have actually been a much more

360
00:18:21.420 --> 00:18:22.740
interesting take, I think.

361
00:18:22.859 --> 00:18:25.200
And the only other thing that doesn't work for me there is the

362
00:18:25.200 --> 00:18:27.240
fact that the Prime Minister doesn't seem to have any staff of his

363
00:18:27.240 --> 00:18:30.420
own, which is...

364
00:18:30.480 --> 00:18:33.000
They're outside, but they don't even a company in.

365
00:18:33.059 --> 00:18:36.779
That is actually an odd moment in it that's kind of stuck out for

366
00:18:36.779 --> 00:18:41.039
me where Capaldi goes kind of kind of forelock tugging to the

367
00:18:41.039 --> 00:18:43.500
Prime Minister and say, thank you for putting me in this

368
00:18:43.500 --> 00:18:43.920
position.

369
00:18:43.980 --> 00:18:44.759
Thank you for doing that.

370
00:18:44.819 --> 00:18:48.119
The Primaster would not have done it with me, but...

371
00:18:48.119 --> 00:18:49.019
I don't think...

372
00:18:49.019 --> 00:18:51.720
He didn't strike me as a way that colleagues would talk to each

373
00:18:51.720 --> 00:18:52.079
other.

374
00:18:52.140 --> 00:18:53.700
And also, it didn't strike me.

375
00:18:53.880 --> 00:18:59.579
Capaldi is fantastic. best thing in these episodes. and he's

376
00:18:59.579 --> 00:19:04.440
adding so much and so many different nuances to everything that

377
00:19:04.440 --> 00:19:04.980
he's doing.

378
00:19:05.039 --> 00:19:09.000
But gratefulness for being put in the position was not one of

379
00:19:09.000 --> 00:19:12.059
those things I thought he was expressing through the rest of the

380
00:19:12.059 --> 00:19:13.319
episode.

381
00:19:13.380 --> 00:19:16.319
What comes out of that forelock tugging, though, is that the Prime

382
00:19:16.319 --> 00:19:19.019
Minister lays his cards on the table in episode two, which makes

383
00:19:19.019 --> 00:19:22.440
what happens for the rest of the series easier to understand from

384
00:19:22.440 --> 00:19:26.640
a viewer's point of view, because he's like, you're, you know, he

385
00:19:26.640 --> 00:19:28.200
Capelli says, I'm basically a middleman.

386
00:19:28.319 --> 00:19:30.240
Thank you for giving me the responsibilities. like, I put you on

387
00:19:30.240 --> 00:19:30.839
the front line.

388
00:19:30.900 --> 00:19:32.819
The front line is the 1st to fall.

389
00:19:32.940 --> 00:19:34.740
Like, he says it.

390
00:19:34.799 --> 00:19:35.579
He says it out loud.

391
00:19:35.640 --> 00:19:41.039
And so both of the major sort of plot resolution moments in

392
00:19:41.039 --> 00:19:44.640
episode 5 are anticipated in episode one and two.

393
00:19:44.700 --> 00:19:49.380
So you get Alice telling Jack that he's dangerous and that he's

394
00:19:49.380 --> 00:19:54.299
not permitted to experiment on Stephen, and this is why she has

395
00:19:54.299 --> 00:19:55.500
told him to stay away.

396
00:19:55.559 --> 00:19:58.799
And then you get the prime minister saying, you are here to be

397
00:19:58.799 --> 00:20:01.980
sacrificed so that I don't suffer.

398
00:20:02.039 --> 00:20:03.660
And like he makes that clear.

399
00:20:03.720 --> 00:20:07.559
And so there's a level of unreality around the scene with the

400
00:20:07.559 --> 00:20:10.680
Prime Minister, who I think is great, by the way. think the

401
00:20:10.680 --> 00:20:11.220
performance is good.

402
00:20:11.279 --> 00:20:12.299
I just think of the characterisation.

403
00:20:12.359 --> 00:20:17.640
I think Russell obviously hates the Prime Minister of kills him in

404
00:20:17.640 --> 00:20:18.359
every season.

405
00:20:18.420 --> 00:20:20.099
Yeah, he hates but also.

406
00:20:20.160 --> 00:20:23.700
But basically, obviously, he obviously has very little regard for

407
00:20:23.700 --> 00:20:27.059
any political leader, of any stripe, of any anything.

408
00:20:27.119 --> 00:20:30.420
He thinks they're all corrupt factors, which is which is okay.

409
00:20:30.480 --> 00:20:32.880
He can believe that, but I think if you're trying to present a

410
00:20:32.880 --> 00:20:37.799
what is supposed to be an adult drama, that's where it leans into

411
00:20:37.799 --> 00:20:38.519
comic book.

412
00:20:38.579 --> 00:20:40.500
Whereas the way Capaldi is doing it.

413
00:20:40.559 --> 00:20:44.339
He's doing it in a way of like, and the older assistant whose name

414
00:20:44.339 --> 00:20:44.819
escapes me.

415
00:20:44.880 --> 00:20:45.359
Bridget.

416
00:20:45.359 --> 00:20:45.779
Yeah.

417
00:20:45.839 --> 00:20:48.119
Oh, that's right, with the capital H password.

418
00:20:48.180 --> 00:20:49.680
They all kind of hate what they're doing.

419
00:20:49.740 --> 00:20:53.400
But they need to do it and it's that kind of internal conflict

420
00:20:53.400 --> 00:20:56.460
which is so much more interesting than watching the way the Prime

421
00:20:56.460 --> 00:20:57.240
Minister is betrayed.

422
00:20:57.299 --> 00:20:58.859
Can I just say, but that moment?

423
00:20:58.920 --> 00:21:02.640
That's the only moment for me where this episode doesn't work.

424
00:21:02.700 --> 00:21:06.539
It's actually a really good story, I think, by John Faye.

425
00:21:06.599 --> 00:21:09.960
And the fact that it is a call, a call forward to things which are

426
00:21:09.960 --> 00:21:11.579
going to happen, it's a bit inelegant.

427
00:21:11.640 --> 00:21:14.460
That's really not what happens in the rest of this episode.

428
00:21:14.519 --> 00:21:17.700
Like, it starts with, it starts with them separated.

429
00:21:17.759 --> 00:21:19.440
It ends with them together.

430
00:21:19.500 --> 00:21:22.200
You go through both plot strands.

431
00:21:22.259 --> 00:21:25.319
You don't really feel the loss of Barriman throughout the whole

432
00:21:25.319 --> 00:21:25.859
thing.

433
00:21:25.920 --> 00:21:27.480
There's plot everywhere.

434
00:21:27.539 --> 00:21:31.200
In fact, it reminded me, it reminded me of Terry Nations writing

435
00:21:31.200 --> 00:21:35.400
incident after incident after incident, just to keep him watching

436
00:21:35.400 --> 00:21:36.359
the whole way through.

437
00:21:36.420 --> 00:21:39.299
Like, I think someone said not much happened in day one.

438
00:21:39.359 --> 00:21:45.480
Actually, I think in a 5 episode arc like this, roughly 20% of the

439
00:21:45.480 --> 00:21:49.079
plot happens in each episode, and I think that there's so much

440
00:21:49.079 --> 00:21:49.680
going on.

441
00:21:49.740 --> 00:21:50.460
Yeah.

442
00:21:50.460 --> 00:21:54.059
So I just wanted to say that just because I pulled out that one

443
00:21:54.059 --> 00:21:56.880
little dud moment, I just wanted to redress that by going, actually

444
00:21:56.880 --> 00:21:57.960
I think the rest of it's brilliant.

445
00:21:58.079 --> 00:22:00.660
No, but that's why I kind of wanted to reinforce that East because

446
00:22:00.660 --> 00:22:03.779
I think it's, it's, I think, in some respects, it's Russell

447
00:22:03.779 --> 00:22:06.180
showing his blind spot, his, his, his own.

448
00:22:06.539 --> 00:22:10.500
It's a blind spot of his that that means that for me, I'm suddenly

449
00:22:10.500 --> 00:22:12.900
taken out of, oh, this is actually really good.

450
00:22:12.900 --> 00:22:15.299
And now suddenly it's just like, you know, some of the other crap

451
00:22:15.299 --> 00:22:15.779
he does.

452
00:22:15.839 --> 00:22:19.619
Whereas the, it was actually me who said that there wasn't much

453
00:22:19.619 --> 00:22:21.720
that happened and I didn't mean episode one.

454
00:22:21.779 --> 00:22:25.019
If I said it, I meant episode two, day two, not a lot happens.

455
00:22:25.079 --> 00:22:27.599
And when I say not a lot, I don't mean there's not a lot of

456
00:22:27.599 --> 00:22:28.200
incident.

457
00:22:28.259 --> 00:22:32.519
I just mean that there's not as much development, movement of the

458
00:22:32.519 --> 00:22:34.980
plot, and I didn't mean that as a negative.

459
00:22:35.039 --> 00:22:38.640
I was just, it was an observation that, that it continues.

460
00:22:38.700 --> 00:22:42.660
No, no, I know what you mean because actually the 3 main

461
00:22:42.660 --> 00:22:46.259
characters are kept away from the main action and that's kind of

462
00:22:46.259 --> 00:22:49.259
the that's kind of the whole point of episode two, isn't it?

463
00:22:49.319 --> 00:22:52.440
They're deliberately taken out of making things happen so that

464
00:22:52.440 --> 00:22:55.259
other things can happen and then they can kind of return to it.

465
00:22:55.380 --> 00:22:58.200
Because we're building a tank for the rills to arrive.

466
00:22:58.259 --> 00:23:00.180
Yes, yes.

467
00:23:00.180 --> 00:23:02.700
A tank which for some reason, when they get the instructions, they

468
00:23:02.700 --> 00:23:05.759
have no idea what it is, then they're building and then it ends up

469
00:23:05.759 --> 00:23:07.920
being a glass tank that they have to put some gas into.

470
00:23:07.980 --> 00:23:10.799
So that was a, that could have been worked a little bit better.

471
00:23:10.859 --> 00:23:14.339
I think there must be some, there is some classic golden era

472
00:23:14.339 --> 00:23:17.579
science fiction thing where I think instructions get sent to for

473
00:23:17.579 --> 00:23:18.539
building something.

474
00:23:18.720 --> 00:23:19.380
Yes, it's contact.

475
00:23:19.440 --> 00:23:20.579
It's Carl Sagan's contact.

476
00:23:20.640 --> 00:23:21.240
Yes, yes.

477
00:23:21.299 --> 00:23:24.299
So, and look, I'm not saying he stole it.

478
00:23:24.359 --> 00:23:26.160
It is Doctor Who, though.

479
00:23:26.279 --> 00:23:27.000
Exactly.

480
00:23:27.059 --> 00:23:30.720
It's whether it's stolen or a prestige or he did it without

481
00:23:30.720 --> 00:23:33.839
realising where he'd seen that idea before. doesn't matter. mean

482
00:23:33.839 --> 00:23:34.559
these things happen all the time.

483
00:23:34.619 --> 00:23:39.420
But in contact, the difference is that you, yeah, they're building

484
00:23:39.420 --> 00:23:41.160
this thing and you really do.

485
00:23:41.220 --> 00:23:42.900
They have no idea how this even works.

486
00:23:42.960 --> 00:23:47.220
But they, but when they put tabet into slot B, it all magically

487
00:23:47.220 --> 00:23:50.700
does this thing which sends JD Foster off to the other end of the

488
00:23:50.700 --> 00:23:52.619
universe, whatever, yes, brilliant.

489
00:23:52.680 --> 00:23:53.099
Have you not seen it?

490
00:23:53.339 --> 00:23:54.420
Oh, it's oh my gosh.

491
00:23:54.480 --> 00:23:55.680
It's brilliant, brilliant.

492
00:23:55.740 --> 00:23:57.539
But the great thing is, they don't know how it works, whereas in

493
00:23:57.539 --> 00:24:01.019
this building, this tank, it's like, well, I think you could have

494
00:24:01.019 --> 00:24:02.819
worked out from the blueprints what this was going to be, you

495
00:24:02.819 --> 00:24:03.000
know.

496
00:24:03.059 --> 00:24:05.519
And the other major difference between contact and this is that

497
00:24:05.519 --> 00:24:08.819
you know, we've been talking about adult drama and RTD.

498
00:24:08.880 --> 00:24:14.039
For me, this is both RTD at his bleakest and most nihilistic.

499
00:24:14.099 --> 00:24:16.140
You know, from episode one to episode five.

500
00:24:16.200 --> 00:24:20.339
This is, this is actually sort of more than what I assumed RTD 2

501
00:24:20.339 --> 00:24:20.940
was going to be like.

502
00:24:21.000 --> 00:24:23.819
And I was a little bit surprised that it wasn't.

503
00:24:23.880 --> 00:24:26.940
Neither here nor there, both here and there is that I hoped, yeah.

504
00:24:27.000 --> 00:24:30.240
Um, and and again, like maybe this was in the back of my mind, but

505
00:24:30.240 --> 00:24:32.519
it's been 15 plus years since I've seen this.

506
00:24:32.579 --> 00:24:36.779
Well, probably turned left is the start of Russell C.

507
00:24:36.779 --> 00:24:39.960
Davies' interest in apocalyptic scenario.

508
00:24:40.019 --> 00:24:44.759
So it's kind of, it's RTD noir or something, but you pick it up

509
00:24:44.759 --> 00:24:47.579
and it goes to years and years and it goes to go through all of

510
00:24:47.579 --> 00:24:48.180
those sort of things.

511
00:24:48.240 --> 00:24:52.859
And I think that actually, actually, I think it's a well he

512
00:24:52.859 --> 00:24:54.779
returns to a little too often, to be honest.

513
00:24:54.839 --> 00:24:58.980
I do think he is very bleak and cynical and even his early stuff

514
00:24:58.980 --> 00:25:02.400
the stuff like queer as folk with the, you know, the death of

515
00:25:02.400 --> 00:25:02.940
Phil.

516
00:25:03.000 --> 00:25:07.440
Um, and uh, and cucumber.

517
00:25:07.440 --> 00:25:11.220
And cucumber, far out cucumber episode six. is also extremely

518
00:25:11.220 --> 00:25:12.119
cool.

519
00:25:12.420 --> 00:25:12.660
Yeah.

520
00:25:12.720 --> 00:25:13.200
Yeah.

521
00:25:13.259 --> 00:25:16.440
So he is very bleak, and in fact, you know, his Doctor Who is

522
00:25:16.440 --> 00:25:17.819
surprisingly not that.

523
00:25:17.819 --> 00:25:23.039
And the moments, like in midnight, sort of in aliens of London

524
00:25:23.039 --> 00:25:25.799
certainly in turn left, which I think is as dark as he allows

525
00:25:25.799 --> 00:25:29.700
himself to go in the parent show, like he's aware that this is a

526
00:25:29.700 --> 00:25:33.240
family show for kids, and so that's not kind of what it's about.

527
00:25:33.480 --> 00:25:35.160
But yeah.

528
00:25:35.220 --> 00:25:38.160
And I think he course corrected an RTD too, because I think it's

529
00:25:38.160 --> 00:25:41.339
much more hopeful and optimistic, which is one thing, like, I

530
00:25:41.339 --> 00:25:43.799
don't know that he knows how to do hopeful and optimistic.

531
00:25:43.859 --> 00:25:47.940
But it's also fair to say that day 2 actually gives no indication

532
00:25:47.940 --> 00:25:49.859
of how bleak it's going to become.

533
00:25:49.920 --> 00:25:53.700
And I was sort of grateful for that watching and thinking, oh, good

534
00:25:53.700 --> 00:25:56.220
this is actually, we're not quite there at the really harrowing

535
00:25:56.220 --> 00:25:57.119
bits yet, you know.

536
00:25:57.180 --> 00:26:01.380
In fact, I think the end where Yanto rocks up with that big truck

537
00:26:01.380 --> 00:26:05.220
and like just pulls the cell out of the wall and then throws it

538
00:26:05.220 --> 00:26:07.559
off and clips.

539
00:26:07.619 --> 00:26:09.119
Like, it's a bit unfair.

540
00:26:09.180 --> 00:26:10.740
Yeah, I mean, it's a plot.

541
00:26:10.799 --> 00:26:14.880
Yeah, that's exactly it. a great drilling, fun moment.

542
00:26:14.940 --> 00:26:16.859
And if it doesn't work, look, that's fine.

543
00:26:16.920 --> 00:26:20.279
I mean, you know, Barrowman's going to be burned to a crisp by the

544
00:26:20.279 --> 00:26:22.799
by the cement, presumably.

545
00:26:22.859 --> 00:26:25.980
Like we're not doing sort of full throated realism here at this

546
00:26:25.980 --> 00:26:26.160
point.

547
00:26:26.220 --> 00:26:31.259
And certainly there's a real joy in like a big car chase where we

548
00:26:31.259 --> 00:26:35.400
explode, like a cement mixer in their park.

549
00:26:36.240 --> 00:26:37.980
A cart chase.

550
00:26:38.039 --> 00:26:40.079
But actually, that's really good because they actually managed to

551
00:26:40.079 --> 00:26:43.019
hide the fact that they've pulled out this great big concrete

552
00:26:43.019 --> 00:26:46.259
block, which is obviously massively heavy onto this piece of

553
00:26:46.259 --> 00:26:50.460
serious earth movie, which at best would go at 20 K's per hour.

554
00:26:50.519 --> 00:26:54.900
I was waiting for it for it to fall off the cliff. for the whole

555
00:26:54.900 --> 00:26:56.279
thing, you just got to lay a balance.

556
00:26:56.339 --> 00:26:59.339
But it's interesting that because of the way it shot and the way

557
00:26:59.339 --> 00:27:02.400
they managed to build, you know, the time it takes for the others

558
00:27:02.400 --> 00:27:04.740
to get to their vehicles and so on like that and they can set up

559
00:27:04.740 --> 00:27:06.000
the explosion of the cement mixer.

560
00:27:06.059 --> 00:27:09.599
It actually works whereas so often these things the way they're

561
00:27:09.599 --> 00:27:13.259
shot and covered. you're left, you know, you're left sort of like

562
00:27:13.259 --> 00:27:14.940
they're slowly getting away.

563
00:27:15.000 --> 00:27:19.559
I've talked before about the long tradition of Doctor Who monsters

564
00:27:19.559 --> 00:27:21.299
that you can briskly walk away.

565
00:27:22.319 --> 00:27:25.859
But I mean, look, well, that's the, I mean, the fact that he knows

566
00:27:25.859 --> 00:27:28.079
which cell to pull him out of is a bit nonsense.

567
00:27:28.140 --> 00:27:29.940
And the fact that it's exactly when, you know, the others are

568
00:27:29.940 --> 00:27:33.119
about to be shown. yeah I'll buy it. pay that.

569
00:27:33.180 --> 00:27:35.400
And that's the other half of what I was going to say is that not

570
00:27:35.400 --> 00:27:38.940
only is this RTD at his most bleak and nihilistic, but he also

571
00:27:38.940 --> 00:27:41.519
this is when I was saying earlier that this is sort of the most

572
00:27:41.519 --> 00:27:45.660
torchwood torchwood has been, is that when you do separate them

573
00:27:45.660 --> 00:27:48.660
one of the other things that RTD has always been great at.

574
00:27:48.720 --> 00:27:52.319
And from Rose, I mean, for the Doctor Who, from his for his Doctor

575
00:27:52.319 --> 00:27:55.980
Who sort of history, is the sort of like, how does all this crazy

576
00:27:55.980 --> 00:27:58.140
stuff affect regular people?

577
00:27:58.200 --> 00:28:01.619
Because I think Rhiannon, Rhiannon and Johnny are 2 of the best

578
00:28:01.619 --> 00:28:02.640
characters in this story.

579
00:28:02.700 --> 00:28:04.680
I mean, in the entire series.

580
00:28:04.740 --> 00:28:08.220
Like all the people that he, like, that the team learns to depend

581
00:28:08.220 --> 00:28:12.180
on, Lois Abiba as well, you know, who's sort of like, 1st day on

582
00:28:12.180 --> 00:28:13.619
the job, but she's a personal assistant.

583
00:28:13.680 --> 00:28:16.980
So you have this sort of the donness of her being really good at

584
00:28:16.980 --> 00:28:21.720
her job and fitting in perfectly into this bizarre happenstance.

585
00:28:21.779 --> 00:28:24.119
But again, it's the way that these things touch the lives of

586
00:28:24.119 --> 00:28:25.019
regular people.

587
00:28:25.079 --> 00:28:28.140
And I think it's that the regular people, really, that's one of

588
00:28:28.140 --> 00:28:31.079
the things that makes this series sing for me is that, again, what

589
00:28:31.079 --> 00:28:31.740
is hopeful.

590
00:28:31.799 --> 00:28:35.039
What isn't bleak, what isn't nihilistic, is that, you know, these

591
00:28:35.039 --> 00:28:37.319
people who live in council estates, the people who are forgotten

592
00:28:37.319 --> 00:28:40.500
about, the people whose children are the lowest 10% are the people

593
00:28:40.500 --> 00:28:44.279
who are generative, the people who are growing their communities

594
00:28:44.279 --> 00:28:46.200
the people who are nurturing families.

595
00:28:46.259 --> 00:28:48.359
Like there's something really, really hopeful about that.

596
00:28:48.420 --> 00:28:52.200
One of the best sequences is, oh, I should say, there are so many

597
00:28:52.200 --> 00:28:52.740
good sequences.

598
00:28:52.799 --> 00:28:57.299
So a great sequence is when Gwen rushes in to risk to say, you've

599
00:28:57.299 --> 00:28:59.339
got to get up, you've got to go, you know, they're after me

600
00:28:59.339 --> 00:29:00.420
therefore, they're going to be after you.

601
00:29:00.480 --> 00:29:02.220
And it's a side of the show.

602
00:29:02.279 --> 00:29:04.859
We haven't had that opportunity to do anything like that before, as

603
00:29:04.859 --> 00:29:07.619
well as Yantos family being raided in the middle of the night and

604
00:29:07.619 --> 00:29:08.400
all that sort of stuff.

605
00:29:08.460 --> 00:29:11.160
It helps to build the sense that this is a real world.

606
00:29:11.160 --> 00:29:12.480
And these people are affected.

607
00:29:12.539 --> 00:29:15.180
And I love that those other characters are now brought into the

608
00:29:15.180 --> 00:29:17.460
plot to actually contribute to it.

609
00:29:17.519 --> 00:29:21.000
And you're right with Lois acting as Capaldi's assistant.

610
00:29:21.059 --> 00:29:24.420
It's that I'm the new person, I'm seeing this, and it's a great

611
00:29:24.420 --> 00:29:29.640
audience surrogate moment where you can feel that, yes, I'd be

612
00:29:29.640 --> 00:29:30.299
doing that.

613
00:29:30.359 --> 00:29:33.539
If I had arrived there and I was thinking, I'd be checking, like

614
00:29:33.539 --> 00:29:36.359
you know, logging into what's a face's computer, I'd be ringing

615
00:29:36.359 --> 00:29:39.839
you know, Gwen, I'd been meeting Gwen in the cafe and and giving

616
00:29:39.839 --> 00:29:41.640
her all this information in 2nd of this meeting.

617
00:29:41.700 --> 00:29:44.339
That's exactly you want that kind of character because she does it

618
00:29:44.339 --> 00:29:44.640
so well.

619
00:29:44.700 --> 00:29:46.140
She's amazingly great.

620
00:29:46.200 --> 00:29:49.740
And like it's her investigation in episode one that tells us what

621
00:29:49.740 --> 00:29:51.900
the blank page is all about and what's going on.

622
00:29:51.960 --> 00:29:55.380
It's the thing that raises the big question, which is who are

623
00:29:55.380 --> 00:29:58.500
these 3 randos who are on the list with Captain Jack.

624
00:29:58.559 --> 00:30:03.000
That's an important question that's there in play inside and that

625
00:30:03.000 --> 00:30:05.579
you know, isn't resolved until a little bit later, but that's

626
00:30:05.579 --> 00:30:06.119
hugely important.

627
00:30:06.180 --> 00:30:09.539
I want to say that Johnny's great moment. when Johnny's 1st

628
00:30:09.539 --> 00:30:13.019
introduced, you know, he calls, um, yeah, into a big queer.

629
00:30:13.500 --> 00:30:15.299
No, no, no, no, no.

630
00:30:16.740 --> 00:30:17.940
You've got a bender.

631
00:30:18.480 --> 00:30:22.980
But there's that moment where Rhiannon says, what's happening with

632
00:30:22.980 --> 00:30:25.859
Yanto, how come he's brought this to our house?

633
00:30:25.920 --> 00:30:31.319
And Johnny gently rebukes her and says, we're the only family that

634
00:30:31.319 --> 00:30:32.279
he's got left.

635
00:30:32.339 --> 00:30:36.480
And it's so good for someone who is such a big kind of dipshit

636
00:30:36.480 --> 00:30:37.500
like earlier on.

637
00:30:37.559 --> 00:30:39.720
Oh, no, he said that...

638
00:30:39.779 --> 00:30:40.200
No, no.

639
00:30:40.259 --> 00:30:40.799
Yeah, yeah, he does.

640
00:30:40.859 --> 00:30:41.160
He does.

641
00:30:41.220 --> 00:30:42.059
But you know what I mean?

642
00:30:42.119 --> 00:30:43.799
Like he's like a big buffy guy.

643
00:30:43.920 --> 00:30:44.940
Yes, yeah.

644
00:30:44.940 --> 00:30:47.220
I didn't need that shot of him naked on the bed there.

645
00:30:47.460 --> 00:30:51.119
There's never any sense that there's anything but love for Yanto

646
00:30:51.119 --> 00:30:51.599
in that house.

647
00:30:51.660 --> 00:30:55.980
And I think that the scenes on the council estate are my favourite

648
00:30:55.980 --> 00:30:58.680
in day one and day 2 were by far away my favourite.

649
00:30:58.680 --> 00:31:01.859
And it's something, they even shoot it a bit differently with some

650
00:31:01.859 --> 00:31:07.019
steady cams to make it feel a bit more edgy, but it's also a sense

651
00:31:07.019 --> 00:31:09.779
that Yanto, someone's going to have to correct me on Yanto's

652
00:31:09.779 --> 00:31:12.720
history because I can't remember any of it, but he dresses in a 3

653
00:31:12.720 --> 00:31:14.700
piece suit, but he comes from this world.

654
00:31:14.759 --> 00:31:16.559
You know, he comes from this world.

655
00:31:16.619 --> 00:31:19.500
So there's a sense of there's a sense that he's left something

656
00:31:19.500 --> 00:31:22.799
behind in order to get what he's what he's got.

657
00:31:22.859 --> 00:31:27.180
Um, I think, though, that, so for me, I absolutely agree, but

658
00:31:27.180 --> 00:31:30.779
that's where the, that's where the social realism is trying to be

659
00:31:30.779 --> 00:31:31.440
added in here.

660
00:31:31.500 --> 00:31:36.000
I think Lois is great too, but tell you what, she's a terrible

661
00:31:36.000 --> 00:31:36.480
hire.

662
00:31:36.539 --> 00:31:39.000
They should never have hired that one.

663
00:31:39.059 --> 00:31:40.079
I'm gonna stay.

664
00:31:40.140 --> 00:31:42.480
First day, she's stealing passwords.

665
00:31:42.539 --> 00:31:44.160
She's looking up...

666
00:31:44.220 --> 00:31:46.559
No, no, she's given the password.

667
00:31:46.680 --> 00:31:49.140
And it's written down and spaced it to your computer.

668
00:31:49.140 --> 00:31:51.240
And no one notices she keeps using it.

669
00:31:51.299 --> 00:31:53.880
You could not get away with that in the modern workplace.

670
00:31:54.000 --> 00:31:55.500
No, that's the government.

671
00:31:55.559 --> 00:31:56.819
That's the government that sucks.

672
00:31:56.880 --> 00:32:01.619
He wasn't meant to use that password to take...

673
00:32:01.680 --> 00:32:03.720
But no one notices.

674
00:32:03.779 --> 00:32:07.740
There's a moment that the lowest spotline for me is just on that

675
00:32:07.740 --> 00:32:10.079
edge of things which pull you out of the story.

676
00:32:10.140 --> 00:32:13.740
Yeah, it's a terrific performance, but there's a moment going, this

677
00:32:13.740 --> 00:32:14.640
is your 1st day.

678
00:32:14.700 --> 00:32:15.839
This is your 2nd day.

679
00:32:15.900 --> 00:32:17.700
Would you actually be doing these?

680
00:32:17.759 --> 00:32:18.900
She does at least hang around tonight.

681
00:32:18.960 --> 00:32:20.220
She does say that.

682
00:32:20.279 --> 00:32:26.099
And like when Jack rings are on day one and she goes, oh, it's my

683
00:32:26.099 --> 00:32:26.819
1st day.

684
00:32:26.940 --> 00:32:28.980
He goes, wow, you know, hell of a 1st day.

685
00:32:29.039 --> 00:32:32.519
Like, so they do kind of play with that.

686
00:32:32.579 --> 00:32:35.220
But yeah, she's saying it's day 2 and I'm committing treason.

687
00:32:37.440 --> 00:32:41.099
That, to me, is really one of the most disappointing things about

688
00:32:41.099 --> 00:32:44.099
the way that the series ends is that they keep, they leave her in

689
00:32:44.099 --> 00:32:44.400
the cell.

690
00:32:44.460 --> 00:32:48.539
And I guess that's to keep her from being complicit in what

691
00:32:48.539 --> 00:32:48.960
happens.

692
00:32:49.019 --> 00:32:51.720
Because, I mean, she could do the computer stuff, but like, yes.

693
00:32:51.779 --> 00:32:53.160
So, I mean, I get I get that.

694
00:32:53.279 --> 00:32:57.000
But that's that I just like, I wanted her involved in some way in

695
00:32:57.000 --> 00:32:57.299
the end.

696
00:32:57.359 --> 00:32:59.579
But it's interesting, Johnny, in the way, you're just saying, you

697
00:32:59.579 --> 00:33:01.619
know, it's only day 2 and you're committing treason and stuff

698
00:33:01.619 --> 00:33:03.779
which I know they hang a lantern and landing on.

699
00:33:03.839 --> 00:33:07.140
But at the same time, that's that sort of heightened accelerated

700
00:33:07.140 --> 00:33:08.039
nature of drama.

701
00:33:08.099 --> 00:33:12.420
And I often try and think of it this way is that, I mean, maybe

702
00:33:12.420 --> 00:33:15.779
you did notice it, but if it's happening and you don't notice it

703
00:33:15.779 --> 00:33:18.720
until afterwards and you go, oh, that's a bit funny that she was

704
00:33:18.720 --> 00:33:20.519
only there a day and she's already doing all this stuff.

705
00:33:20.700 --> 00:33:24.119
It's fine because it's managed to be kind of become part of a

706
00:33:24.119 --> 00:33:26.940
story and hidden in such a way, hidden in plain view, if you like

707
00:33:26.940 --> 00:33:28.380
that you run with it.

708
00:33:28.440 --> 00:33:30.960
And other times they can do exactly the same kind of thing and

709
00:33:30.960 --> 00:33:32.880
you're just sitting there the entire time once you get going.

710
00:33:32.940 --> 00:33:33.720
Oh, this is just ridiculous.

711
00:33:33.779 --> 00:33:34.859
It's like you've been there one day.

712
00:33:34.920 --> 00:33:40.259
I think the other option, would it, would for it to have been an

713
00:33:40.259 --> 00:33:44.160
old dishevelled disgruntled employee who is seeking revenge

714
00:33:44.160 --> 00:33:46.259
against Bridget or something and that would have made more sense

715
00:33:46.259 --> 00:33:48.359
but...

716
00:33:48.420 --> 00:33:51.480
The thing about torture it is that you need people who look like

717
00:33:51.480 --> 00:33:53.519
they might be the next members of the tour.

718
00:33:53.579 --> 00:33:54.299
Oh, yes, yes.

719
00:33:54.359 --> 00:33:57.539
And so they need to be sort of young and attractive and look like

720
00:33:57.539 --> 00:34:00.000
they're about to run away and join the Torchwood Circus, right?

721
00:34:00.059 --> 00:34:02.279
Is this person the next companion kind of thing.

722
00:34:02.400 --> 00:34:06.180
Although, I have to say, it's like Torchwood, can you spell that?

723
00:34:06.240 --> 00:34:07.799
I mean how the hell do you think it's spelled?

724
00:34:08.639 --> 00:34:11.880
W-O-U-I. I need to get a torch.

725
00:34:11.880 --> 00:34:12.659
Torchwood.

726
00:34:12.719 --> 00:34:14.519
I did get a real thrill though.

727
00:34:14.579 --> 00:34:18.300
A real, like, buzz up the back of my neck when Gwen asks her at

728
00:34:18.300 --> 00:34:22.739
the, um, at the, at the coffee shop. when this is over and you

729
00:34:22.739 --> 00:34:23.639
need a job, call me.

730
00:34:24.300 --> 00:34:26.639
Like, there's such a, there was like an absolute, like, thrill

731
00:34:26.639 --> 00:34:28.559
that went up the back of my neck when she said that because

732
00:34:28.559 --> 00:34:30.960
there's like, you could feel that she invests in people.

733
00:34:31.019 --> 00:34:34.800
Except, you know, the last person that they recruited as a doctor

734
00:34:34.800 --> 00:34:39.300
and then the previous doctor and then the previous computer

735
00:34:39.300 --> 00:34:40.139
operator.

736
00:34:40.199 --> 00:34:41.460
Do you know what I mean?

737
00:34:41.519 --> 00:34:42.480
Like, it's not a great job.

738
00:34:42.539 --> 00:34:44.639
That's not focussed too much on that.

739
00:34:44.699 --> 00:34:46.739
But that's one of the things, that's one of the things about

740
00:34:46.739 --> 00:34:48.059
series 3 itself.

741
00:34:48.119 --> 00:34:50.280
Like, again, and we've been talking about the way that the series

742
00:34:50.280 --> 00:34:54.599
is developing, for me, when I got to the end of season of the end

743
00:34:54.599 --> 00:34:56.039
of the season, because I just went ahead and watched the whole

744
00:34:56.039 --> 00:34:56.219
thing.

745
00:34:56.280 --> 00:35:00.179
I just got really sucked into it again, is that, you know, in a

746
00:35:00.179 --> 00:35:04.260
different reality, you sort of picture a torchwood series 4 that

747
00:35:04.260 --> 00:35:07.320
goes from high stakes of like the children of Earth are going to

748
00:35:07.320 --> 00:35:10.920
be taken back to sort of like sort of smaller stakes in Cardiff

749
00:35:10.920 --> 00:35:15.239
with Rhiannon and Johnny and, you know, the people on, like to

750
00:35:15.239 --> 00:35:18.960
involve, like to go smaller and and more sort of like into the

751
00:35:18.960 --> 00:35:20.099
into the community.

752
00:35:20.159 --> 00:35:23.940
Like, that feels like it would have been a, a, a, like a, like a

753
00:35:23.940 --> 00:35:26.519
winning, it felt like a winning formula to me, and it really is

754
00:35:26.519 --> 00:35:29.519
like made me sad at the end to know that it went in a completely

755
00:35:29.519 --> 00:35:30.179
different direction.

756
00:35:30.300 --> 00:35:32.639
I've got to say, I don't...

757
00:35:32.639 --> 00:35:36.599
I really like the three-person Torchwood team.

758
00:35:36.659 --> 00:35:38.039
I don't miss the other two.

759
00:35:38.099 --> 00:35:39.840
I think actually there were too many of them.

760
00:35:39.900 --> 00:35:43.619
And even in this episode where we take Barrowman out for most of

761
00:35:43.619 --> 00:35:44.219
the episode.

762
00:35:44.280 --> 00:35:48.000
It's perfectly serviceable to just have that small number of

763
00:35:48.000 --> 00:35:49.500
characters and we get to know them.

764
00:35:49.559 --> 00:35:53.340
I think they're the most likeable of the of the torchwood lineups

765
00:35:53.340 --> 00:35:54.659
too, and that helps a lot.

766
00:35:54.719 --> 00:36:00.239
But that also, it's because we're, we've got Reese and um, Yanto's

767
00:36:00.239 --> 00:36:04.139
sister, whose name we can, Rihanna, and and Lois, um, basically

768
00:36:04.139 --> 00:36:07.619
being effectively de facto, additional members of Torchwood, what

769
00:36:07.619 --> 00:36:08.099
would argue.

770
00:36:08.159 --> 00:36:09.059
I mean, that's right.

771
00:36:09.119 --> 00:36:11.579
We've got so we've got something that's literally the length of

772
00:36:11.579 --> 00:36:16.139
half a torchwood season. normally because it's 5 hours long and we

773
00:36:16.139 --> 00:36:17.639
have a massive regular cast.

774
00:36:17.699 --> 00:36:19.800
It's just that only 3 of them are in torchwood.

775
00:36:19.860 --> 00:36:23.699
And, you know, because we've got Alice, because we've got Bridget

776
00:36:23.699 --> 00:36:26.219
we've got all of these people who appear, Johnson, people who

777
00:36:26.219 --> 00:36:29.340
appear every episode and are hugely important to it, but aren't

778
00:36:29.340 --> 00:36:30.119
part of Torchwood.

779
00:36:30.179 --> 00:36:32.219
And that's the other thing about this that makes it.

780
00:36:32.280 --> 00:36:36.599
So good, is that you have this massive regular car.

781
00:36:36.659 --> 00:36:37.019
Yeah.

782
00:36:37.019 --> 00:36:41.880
And so you can do things that you can sideline torchwood for an

783
00:36:41.880 --> 00:36:43.380
episode while other stuff goes on.

784
00:36:43.440 --> 00:36:45.900
It's interesting with talking about, you know, not missing those

785
00:36:45.900 --> 00:36:49.380
other cast members and I call them, you know, it's obviously Mr

786
00:36:49.380 --> 00:36:50.699
Guppy and Titikaka.

787
00:36:50.760 --> 00:36:56.159
But both of them, it's not the fact that we didn't like this

788
00:36:56.159 --> 00:36:57.420
characters because I did like those characters.

789
00:36:57.480 --> 00:37:00.840
It's the fact that it's interesting that they set up torchwood in

790
00:37:00.840 --> 00:37:05.099
the way that you'd sent up like a US drama or a network drama

791
00:37:05.099 --> 00:37:06.179
which has 26 episodes.

792
00:37:06.239 --> 00:37:09.000
The reason you have that ensemble of characters is so that you can

793
00:37:09.000 --> 00:37:13.619
have, you know, in your mystery of the week, you have different

794
00:37:13.619 --> 00:37:15.900
characters get different focus, which means you can shoot several

795
00:37:15.900 --> 00:37:18.300
episodes at the sort of at the same time and da da da.

796
00:37:18.360 --> 00:37:20.219
Whereas they still kind of use that format, even though they're

797
00:37:20.219 --> 00:37:23.219
only doing, you know, 10 episodes or 13 or whatever.

798
00:37:32.940 --> 00:37:36.840
While we're talking about the extended cast, I've got to mention

799
00:37:36.840 --> 00:37:38.460
Johnson, the...

800
00:37:38.460 --> 00:37:42.179
She's the 18 Johnson, who walks around with a look on her face

801
00:37:42.179 --> 00:37:46.019
like she's just trodden in something horrible and she never takes

802
00:37:46.019 --> 00:37:47.340
that look off her face.

803
00:37:47.400 --> 00:37:48.840
She's consistently like that.

804
00:37:48.900 --> 00:37:51.360
She should win a BAFTA for consistently.

805
00:37:51.420 --> 00:37:53.460
I've stepped in something awful acting.

806
00:37:53.579 --> 00:37:54.420
Do you know what?

807
00:37:54.480 --> 00:37:57.960
In episode three, there's one moment where she's there with Alice

808
00:37:57.960 --> 00:38:02.880
and she says something like, oh, goodness, you can't tell Stephen

809
00:38:02.880 --> 00:38:06.059
that Jack is his grandfather.

810
00:38:06.119 --> 00:38:06.840
Can you?

811
00:38:06.900 --> 00:38:10.860
And just for a moment, she connects with Alice in a way and

812
00:38:10.860 --> 00:38:15.539
connects over, like how to like Alice and her relationship with

813
00:38:15.539 --> 00:38:16.380
her child.

814
00:38:16.380 --> 00:38:18.539
And she actually softens.

815
00:38:18.539 --> 00:38:22.559
And for the rest of the show, you know, she ends up on our side.

816
00:38:22.619 --> 00:38:25.679
You know, she does end up on our side, even though she's like

817
00:38:25.679 --> 00:38:27.000
super murderous and stuff.

818
00:38:27.059 --> 00:38:29.519
I really, I like her a great deal.

819
00:38:29.579 --> 00:38:31.199
Like, I think she's really good.

820
00:38:31.260 --> 00:38:31.980
Yes, she's great.

821
00:38:32.039 --> 00:38:33.659
The other character mentioned is Decker.

822
00:38:33.719 --> 00:38:34.199
Decker.

823
00:38:34.260 --> 00:38:34.500
Yep.

824
00:38:34.559 --> 00:38:36.719
Or as I like to call him, evil Leo McGarry.

825
00:38:36.780 --> 00:38:38.699
Evil Leo McGarry.

826
00:38:38.760 --> 00:38:40.559
He has such a He sort of does that.

827
00:38:40.619 --> 00:38:44.639
But he's also sort of like, you know, the sort of like Leo in the

828
00:38:44.639 --> 00:38:47.699
West Wing, sort of the chief of staff who, like, gets things done

829
00:38:47.699 --> 00:38:50.940
like, or is the guy who has to kick butt to get things done.

830
00:38:51.000 --> 00:38:52.500
It feels like Decker is playing that same role.

831
00:38:52.559 --> 00:38:53.940
But yes, no, we got to talk about both of these.

832
00:38:54.000 --> 00:38:56.519
So Decker is the guy who's building the thing.

833
00:38:56.519 --> 00:38:57.059
Yes.

834
00:38:57.719 --> 00:39:00.659
So the interesting thing that I find, firstly, I don't actually

835
00:39:00.659 --> 00:39:01.500
like Johnson.

836
00:39:01.559 --> 00:39:04.079
At this point, I haven't yet watched the rest of it.

837
00:39:04.139 --> 00:39:06.179
So I'm up to this point.

838
00:39:06.300 --> 00:39:09.960
So the last I cannot, and I cannot remember exactly how it unfolds

839
00:39:09.960 --> 00:39:11.400
although I have a pretty good idea.

840
00:39:11.460 --> 00:39:14.760
I don't really like Johnson's character at this point. that that's

841
00:39:14.760 --> 00:39:15.420
the way she develops.

842
00:39:15.480 --> 00:39:19.559
Deck is interesting because for me, in that kind of red herring

843
00:39:19.559 --> 00:39:22.260
style, I'm wondering at this point where the decker is actually an

844
00:39:22.260 --> 00:39:22.619
alien.

845
00:39:23.280 --> 00:39:26.099
Because the way the looks on his face and the way he's doing

846
00:39:26.099 --> 00:39:26.400
things.

847
00:39:26.460 --> 00:39:28.559
And obviously he knows more than he's saying and he knows that

848
00:39:28.559 --> 00:39:32.280
Capaldi knows more than he's saying in that last segment in this

849
00:39:32.280 --> 00:39:33.840
episode with a tank and it's filling out.

850
00:39:33.960 --> 00:39:36.659
That's very odd at the end where he approaches... that's what I'm

851
00:39:36.659 --> 00:39:37.079
wanting.

852
00:39:37.139 --> 00:39:40.320
That's all for me as a viewer feeding into, you know, he's not one

853
00:39:40.320 --> 00:39:42.300
of us sort of thing, as I say, it's quite fast, especially with

854
00:39:42.300 --> 00:39:44.699
the look on his face the whole time. not quite real.

855
00:39:44.760 --> 00:39:47.519
And that's one of the things is that he is a sort of parallel

856
00:39:47.519 --> 00:39:48.840
character to Frobisher.

857
00:39:48.900 --> 00:39:51.599
Not only are they, you know, in these scenes together, but they're

858
00:39:51.599 --> 00:39:55.199
both sort of like, middlemen, keep your nose down, do your work

859
00:39:55.199 --> 00:39:56.699
career civil servants.

860
00:39:56.760 --> 00:40:00.119
It's just that they have almost completely different approaches to

861
00:40:00.119 --> 00:40:00.300
it.

862
00:40:00.360 --> 00:40:03.599
And going back to Johnson also, it, it, you know, and maybe we can

863
00:40:03.599 --> 00:40:05.639
talk about this at some point, but it's something that kept coming

864
00:40:05.639 --> 00:40:10.440
up in my head is the way that, uh, because Johnson is such a hard

865
00:40:10.440 --> 00:40:14.039
ass and because she's a woman and an action woman, uh, much like

866
00:40:14.039 --> 00:40:18.179
Eve Miles, uh, uh, Gwen Cooper, that there are, that this, that

867
00:40:18.179 --> 00:40:22.559
this entire series, uh, really sets up sort of, I don't want to

868
00:40:22.559 --> 00:40:25.739
say strange because it's not strange, but it's, uh, atypical

869
00:40:25.739 --> 00:40:30.420
approaches to what, uh, defin- defining masculinity and and

870
00:40:30.420 --> 00:40:34.619
femininity uh But that's something we can we can go on at a later

871
00:40:34.619 --> 00:40:34.800
time.

872
00:40:34.860 --> 00:40:39.659
I have to say that the really big clear difference between Decca

873
00:40:39.659 --> 00:40:43.079
and Frobisher is that one has children and the other one doesn't

874
00:40:43.079 --> 00:40:46.139
and there's that whole conversation around that.

875
00:40:46.199 --> 00:40:50.039
And he says something dismissively about how he was always too

876
00:40:50.039 --> 00:40:51.599
busy with work to have children.

877
00:40:51.659 --> 00:40:53.940
But I think you can do both.

878
00:40:54.000 --> 00:40:55.920
Apparently. think you can.

879
00:40:55.980 --> 00:40:58.079
And we all know from experience.

880
00:40:59.699 --> 00:41:04.079
I think the scary thing about Decker is that he seems to be

881
00:41:04.079 --> 00:41:09.900
quietly looking forward to the 456 arriving and he where nobody

882
00:41:09.900 --> 00:41:12.179
everyone else is going, yeah, this is doom laden.

883
00:41:12.239 --> 00:41:16.380
He's kind of going, yeah, I'm up for the chaos, which is about to

884
00:41:16.380 --> 00:41:17.099
ensue.

885
00:41:17.159 --> 00:41:20.159
And he's he's a terrific actor.

886
00:41:20.219 --> 00:41:22.920
I think he's that's Ian Gelder.

887
00:41:22.980 --> 00:41:24.360
He is in.

888
00:41:24.539 --> 00:41:25.320
Can you hear me?

889
00:41:25.380 --> 00:41:27.539
The Jodie Whittaker episode.

890
00:41:27.599 --> 00:41:31.380
He's the one who flies fingers around other people, I think.

891
00:41:31.440 --> 00:41:32.280
Yeah, yeah.

892
00:41:32.400 --> 00:41:36.659
And actually comparing those 2 performances is interesting because

893
00:41:36.659 --> 00:41:41.639
where in this where he's given something really subtle and really

894
00:41:41.639 --> 00:41:44.639
um, really sort of pernicious to do.

895
00:41:44.699 --> 00:41:46.440
He's just terrific at it.

896
00:41:46.500 --> 00:41:50.880
And, um, that moment at the end of the episode where he, he

897
00:41:50.880 --> 00:41:53.880
approaches the cage, not the cage, the tank.

898
00:41:53.940 --> 00:41:59.639
He coaches the tank to breathe on it, is shows a sort of, um, uh

899
00:41:59.639 --> 00:42:04.679
synchronicity with the with the monsters, which is, I can see

900
00:42:04.679 --> 00:42:07.980
Simon Howe watching it, you'd think, he's the monster's man on the

901
00:42:07.980 --> 00:42:08.340
inside.

902
00:42:08.400 --> 00:42:09.599
Yes, yeah.

903
00:42:09.659 --> 00:42:16.380
Is it that he relishes the some kind of comeuppance for what

904
00:42:16.380 --> 00:42:18.300
happened before?

905
00:42:18.360 --> 00:42:19.019
In the 60s?

906
00:42:19.079 --> 00:42:21.719
Yeah, it's not, it isn't, it isn't very clearly that.

907
00:42:21.780 --> 00:42:22.440
I think.

908
00:42:22.500 --> 00:42:27.719
I think, like, there is something, because that mystery, it does

909
00:42:27.719 --> 00:42:31.079
get brought up at the very end, when it's just him and Bridget and

910
00:42:31.079 --> 00:42:34.980
Frobisher, like, it's very clear that something has gone on that

911
00:42:34.980 --> 00:42:39.780
we don't know about, that, and, and, you know, you have to be kind

912
00:42:39.780 --> 00:42:44.639
of, the television watching guy, to kind of know these 3 names are

913
00:42:44.639 --> 00:42:47.940
people that we've never seen before, and that means that this

914
00:42:47.940 --> 00:42:49.139
intertorch would thing.

915
00:42:49.199 --> 00:42:52.619
That's something that Jack has done in his past that's not

916
00:42:52.619 --> 00:42:54.900
tortured related is important here.

917
00:42:55.260 --> 00:43:00.659
And that thing enables us to go for 2 full episodes without

918
00:43:00.659 --> 00:43:04.380
getting bored for a 2nd. even though the aliens haven't turned

919
00:43:04.380 --> 00:43:04.619
up.

920
00:43:04.739 --> 00:43:05.699
We've had 2 hours.

921
00:43:05.760 --> 00:43:07.500
The aliens aren't here yet.

922
00:43:07.559 --> 00:43:11.340
I would gently suggest that it's especially because the aliens

923
00:43:11.340 --> 00:43:12.000
haven't turned.

924
00:43:12.119 --> 00:43:12.599
Yeah, yeah.

925
00:43:12.599 --> 00:43:15.360
Because I think if the aliens turn up too early, that's when the

926
00:43:15.360 --> 00:43:19.380
rest of it just drags because you've shot your load, I believe, is

927
00:43:19.380 --> 00:43:20.579
the expression.

928
00:43:21.539 --> 00:43:27.719
We do have the strangeness, though, not only of the children being

929
00:43:27.719 --> 00:43:32.159
used as sort of puppets or mouthpieces of the 456, but also, and

930
00:43:32.159 --> 00:43:33.539
we haven't talked about him yet either.

931
00:43:33.599 --> 00:43:36.300
Um, and I can't remember the name of the character.

932
00:43:36.360 --> 00:43:37.920
The actor's name is Paul Copley.

933
00:43:37.980 --> 00:43:40.980
Um, the guy who is in the, uh, the care home.

934
00:43:40.980 --> 00:43:43.019
Uh, who was...

935
00:43:43.019 --> 00:43:43.559
Clem.

936
00:43:43.559 --> 00:43:43.920
Clem.

937
00:43:43.980 --> 00:43:44.880
Yes, yes, that's right.

938
00:43:44.940 --> 00:43:47.460
Uh, who was a fantastic character actor. also.

939
00:43:47.519 --> 00:43:51.539
I know him mostly from the, he played a one of the crew on the

940
00:43:51.539 --> 00:43:55.619
hornblower series with Joan Griffith in the late 90s.

941
00:43:55.679 --> 00:43:58.920
So I know him mostly from that, but also I think he was in Call

942
00:43:58.920 --> 00:44:02.579
the Midwife, whatever, Candleford, all the period dramas.

943
00:44:02.639 --> 00:44:04.860
But he's a great, he's a terrific character actor.

944
00:44:04.920 --> 00:44:08.340
But there, you also get a sort of alienness from him, which, like

945
00:44:08.340 --> 00:44:11.400
the children isn't specifically just about children being

946
00:44:11.400 --> 00:44:14.760
kidnapped by aliens, you know, it's through that character that

947
00:44:14.760 --> 00:44:19.320
we're also seeing like, you know, neglect of the elderly, you know

948
00:44:19.320 --> 00:44:22.260
mental health issues, like, is this something like with Ian

949
00:44:22.260 --> 00:44:23.099
Gelder's character?

950
00:44:23.159 --> 00:44:23.940
Is he just weird?

951
00:44:24.000 --> 00:44:26.219
Is he an alien, you know, plant?

952
00:44:26.280 --> 00:44:29.280
Like, it's, you can ask the same questions about, about that

953
00:44:29.280 --> 00:44:30.480
character, about the Clem character?

954
00:44:30.539 --> 00:44:34.320
I mean, his ability to smell the aliens coming is never explained

955
00:44:34.320 --> 00:44:37.260
or to smell Gwen's pregnancy.

956
00:44:37.320 --> 00:44:38.099
Yeah, yeah.

957
00:44:38.159 --> 00:44:41.699
And again, I haven't seen the rest of it for 17 years or however

958
00:44:41.699 --> 00:44:42.420
long it's been.

959
00:44:42.480 --> 00:44:46.380
But we're supposed to assume that he was the boy that seems to

960
00:44:46.380 --> 00:44:47.579
have been left behind on the bus.

961
00:44:47.579 --> 00:44:49.440
And am I right in thinking it wasn't him?

962
00:44:49.500 --> 00:44:50.579
No, it was him.

963
00:44:50.820 --> 00:44:54.420
So we I couldn't remember whether it was going to be Capaldi that

964
00:44:54.420 --> 00:44:55.860
is actually the boy that's been left behind.

965
00:44:55.980 --> 00:44:58.500
So Capaldi doesn't seem quite old enough for this.

966
00:44:58.559 --> 00:45:00.119
Like Dekker does.

967
00:45:00.239 --> 00:45:05.699
If that happened in 65, which is... 33 years. 43 years.

968
00:45:05.760 --> 00:45:06.780
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

969
00:45:08.039 --> 00:45:10.380
That elusive decade.

970
00:45:11.460 --> 00:45:14.519
That's what I'm trying to do, Matt, swallow the podcast.

971
00:45:14.519 --> 00:45:17.940
No, it's just that, remember, when you, when you, when you move

972
00:45:17.940 --> 00:45:21.420
time from the 20th, the 21st century, generally the 1990s, all the

973
00:45:21.420 --> 00:45:22.320
naughts disappeared.

974
00:45:22.380 --> 00:45:23.760
We forget about it.

975
00:45:24.059 --> 00:45:26.159
Because we can't possibly be that whole.

976
00:45:26.639 --> 00:45:29.940
And also it's the 21st century, so everything changed.

977
00:45:30.000 --> 00:45:31.920
Exactly.

978
00:45:31.920 --> 00:45:32.400
Yeah.

979
00:45:32.460 --> 00:45:35.519
So he's not quite old enough, maybe Decker is, but you know, you'd

980
00:45:35.519 --> 00:45:40.380
have to squint and kind of, you know, he's probably... supposed to

981
00:45:40.380 --> 00:45:40.980
be 8 years old.

982
00:45:41.039 --> 00:45:42.179
So 43 years, 51.

983
00:45:42.300 --> 00:45:42.900
That's about right.

984
00:45:42.960 --> 00:45:43.739
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

985
00:45:43.800 --> 00:45:46.079
How old's Frobisher and how old are they?

986
00:45:46.139 --> 00:45:47.760
It could be early 50s. 50s?

987
00:45:47.820 --> 00:45:48.300
Well, easy.

988
00:45:48.360 --> 00:45:51.780
But don't they have to have been involved in the cover-up in

989
00:45:51.780 --> 00:45:52.739
1965?

990
00:45:52.800 --> 00:45:54.539
Oh, no, to be involved in the cover-up.

991
00:45:54.599 --> 00:45:55.019
No, no, no.

992
00:45:55.079 --> 00:45:57.659
I just meant in terms of being like on that bus or something.

993
00:45:57.719 --> 00:45:58.739
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

994
00:45:58.800 --> 00:46:00.480
No, no, he's the right age for the bus.

995
00:46:00.539 --> 00:46:01.920
He's in his mid-50s or something.

996
00:46:01.980 --> 00:46:03.719
He's probably younger than both of us, Simon, actually.

997
00:46:03.780 --> 00:46:04.320
Shut up.

998
00:46:06.659 --> 00:46:11.159
But it's also just it's also just access, like Lois, like how she

999
00:46:11.159 --> 00:46:12.300
is discovering all these things.

1000
00:46:12.360 --> 00:46:15.179
We can assume that that's one of the things that Decker is taking

1001
00:46:15.179 --> 00:46:18.239
relish in is that he's just had, he's, he's been in the, he's been

1002
00:46:18.239 --> 00:46:20.219
in the archives, like all his career.

1003
00:46:20.280 --> 00:46:23.579
Like, he knows secrets and like, you know, there's that when he's

1004
00:46:23.579 --> 00:46:26.519
when they're having that conversation about the thing, he's like

1005
00:46:26.519 --> 00:46:28.980
you know, he lists off a number of things it could be.

1006
00:46:29.039 --> 00:46:31.860
He's like, it could be, you know, an ambassadorial suite.

1007
00:46:31.920 --> 00:46:34.619
It could be a throne, a throne.

1008
00:46:34.679 --> 00:46:35.639
It could be a slaughterhouse.

1009
00:46:35.699 --> 00:46:35.940
Yeah.

1010
00:46:36.000 --> 00:46:40.199
So it's, I think he's just like, I think he's one of these

1011
00:46:40.199 --> 00:46:44.340
characters, one of these characters who just likes chaos and like

1012
00:46:44.340 --> 00:46:47.280
wants, wants something different than normal everyday stuff.

1013
00:46:47.340 --> 00:46:50.639
And even though I watched the whole thing last weekend.

1014
00:46:50.940 --> 00:46:54.900
When I was rewatching episode 2 this morning, I thought it ended

1015
00:46:54.900 --> 00:46:57.840
with we are coming back tomorrow.

1016
00:46:57.900 --> 00:47:02.639
Like I thought it ended with tomorrow as the revelation, just like

1017
00:47:02.639 --> 00:47:05.400
coming back was the revelation at the end of episode one, but

1018
00:47:05.400 --> 00:47:09.300
instead it does end with that very, very strange scene of Decca

1019
00:47:10.079 --> 00:47:12.300
looking at the thing, which is pretty amazing.

1020
00:47:16.559 --> 00:47:18.960
Can we talk about Eve Miles?

1021
00:47:19.260 --> 00:47:22.559
I just think she is spectacular. sensational.

1022
00:47:22.619 --> 00:47:23.039
Yeah.

1023
00:47:23.099 --> 00:47:26.519
Very, very committed and convincing at all times.

1024
00:47:26.579 --> 00:47:30.480
I love when they're trying to get Barrowman out of the, the, the

1025
00:47:30.480 --> 00:47:34.260
hold the cell and, you know, restart saying, you know, she's

1026
00:47:34.260 --> 00:47:35.099
married and pregnant.

1027
00:47:35.159 --> 00:47:36.719
I can't do a watch accent.

1028
00:47:36.780 --> 00:47:40.679
But in the way, she just turns around with this kind of zipper.

1029
00:47:40.739 --> 00:47:42.840
It is just brilliant.

1030
00:47:42.900 --> 00:47:45.300
Gosh, I wish I had that control to people.

1031
00:47:45.719 --> 00:47:49.199
I really like the scene when they're in the when they're in the

1032
00:47:49.199 --> 00:47:49.380
truck.

1033
00:47:49.440 --> 00:47:50.940
The potato truck.

1034
00:47:50.940 --> 00:47:52.079
The potato truck.

1035
00:47:52.139 --> 00:47:53.820
It's so charming.

1036
00:47:53.880 --> 00:47:58.559
Well, the moment the fact that she doesn't have to say that she's

1037
00:47:58.559 --> 00:48:01.019
pregnant, she does, but she doesn't say it.

1038
00:48:01.079 --> 00:48:03.119
She doesn't say I'm pregnant.

1039
00:48:03.179 --> 00:48:05.039
Sorry, she doesn't actually, she doesn't say I'm pregnant.

1040
00:48:05.099 --> 00:48:08.519
She just says, you know, when you have to make a big announcement

1041
00:48:08.519 --> 00:48:09.360
that's one of those things in your head.

1042
00:48:09.420 --> 00:48:12.179
And then he goes, 0 my god, that's fantastic news.

1043
00:48:12.239 --> 00:48:14.219
Yeah, so that's because interesting they mentioned the nursery in

1044
00:48:14.219 --> 00:48:14.699
the 1st episode.

1045
00:48:14.760 --> 00:48:15.599
So it's lovely.

1046
00:48:15.659 --> 00:48:21.000
That actually shows the kind of a bit of a delicate writing style

1047
00:48:21.000 --> 00:48:23.340
which I think Russell throws away later on.

1048
00:48:23.400 --> 00:48:25.079
Well, this isn't Russell, remember?

1049
00:48:25.139 --> 00:48:26.219
This is John Fay.

1050
00:48:26.280 --> 00:48:28.440
Okay, but the planning, he's show running it, nevertheless, and

1051
00:48:28.440 --> 00:48:32.820
kind of a, it just shows a lightness of touch, which I think is

1052
00:48:32.820 --> 00:48:33.719
missing from his work.

1053
00:48:33.780 --> 00:48:36.900
I also think if it's a boy named it Edward after the potato

1054
00:48:36.960 --> 00:48:37.679
potato.

1055
00:48:39.000 --> 00:48:43.860
I don't know how I feel about that character sniffing out Wen's

1056
00:48:43.860 --> 00:48:47.760
pregnancy in day one, but it does at least make a change from

1057
00:48:47.760 --> 00:48:50.880
characters running out of the room to vomit and then you realise

1058
00:48:50.880 --> 00:48:52.260
later on that they're pregnant.

1059
00:48:52.320 --> 00:48:57.000
So it is, but we must talk about, we must talk about having a, um

1060
00:48:57.000 --> 00:49:01.980
a newly pregnant woman lie on a box of potatoes on the 3 hour

1061
00:49:01.980 --> 00:49:05.340
drive from, from Cardiff to London.

1062
00:49:05.400 --> 00:49:06.360
Yeah.

1063
00:49:06.360 --> 00:49:07.079
She's pregnant.

1064
00:49:07.139 --> 00:49:07.679
She's not sick.

1065
00:49:08.340 --> 00:49:11.940
I mean, we should be in one piece, but I mean, I mean, actually, we

1066
00:49:11.940 --> 00:49:14.639
see her on one piece making a phone call immediately afterwards

1067
00:49:14.639 --> 00:49:16.860
seeming to have no after effects at all.

1068
00:49:16.920 --> 00:49:18.179
Neither of them from that.

1069
00:49:18.239 --> 00:49:18.960
What?

1070
00:49:19.019 --> 00:49:19.920
I mean, come on.

1071
00:49:19.980 --> 00:49:20.880
I've never lied.

1072
00:49:20.940 --> 00:49:22.559
To be fair disclosure.

1073
00:49:22.619 --> 00:49:25.739
I never actually laid down stomach 1st on a box of potatoes, but I

1074
00:49:25.739 --> 00:49:27.780
don't think it's going to be the most comfortable journey.

1075
00:49:27.840 --> 00:49:29.460
I think perhaps they might have felt good.

1076
00:49:29.519 --> 00:49:30.719
Well, they say it's not comfortable at least.

1077
00:49:30.780 --> 00:49:34.860
I mean, I think that obviously in a show that's about children and

1078
00:49:34.860 --> 00:49:37.559
one of the things that it is about, and particularly towards the

1079
00:49:37.559 --> 00:49:41.699
end, is what sort of world have we left for our children to grow

1080
00:49:41.699 --> 00:49:43.920
up in and concerns around that.

1081
00:49:43.980 --> 00:49:48.119
And suddenly she has a stake in that, just all of a sudden, the

1082
00:49:48.119 --> 00:49:51.960
reason that she's pregnant for this episode is because it now

1083
00:49:51.960 --> 00:49:56.340
matters to her in a much more urgent way what the world that she

1084
00:49:56.340 --> 00:50:01.260
leaves behind is going to be like and is it a world in which we

1085
00:50:01.260 --> 00:50:06.000
sacrifice 10% of the world's children in order to keep going.

1086
00:50:06.059 --> 00:50:07.019
Do you know what I mean?

1087
00:50:07.079 --> 00:50:09.420
Like what sort of world are we in?

1088
00:50:09.480 --> 00:50:15.119
And I said last time that even though Jack has a grandchild

1089
00:50:15.119 --> 00:50:21.119
because he's immortal, he doesn't feel that concern because he's

1090
00:50:21.119 --> 00:50:22.619
going to be around in that world.

1091
00:50:22.679 --> 00:50:25.739
He's not being replaced by Stephen at any point.

1092
00:50:25.860 --> 00:50:29.760
He'll grow up and he'll he'll watch Stephen die.

1093
00:50:29.820 --> 00:50:33.000
He'll bear it where he does, but sooner than he might have

1094
00:50:33.000 --> 00:50:33.480
expected.

1095
00:50:33.539 --> 00:50:37.019
But even in the normal course of affairs, he would he would bury

1096
00:50:37.019 --> 00:50:41.340
Stephen the way that he buried Stephen's grandmother, you know.

1097
00:50:41.400 --> 00:50:44.699
So all of that stuff about all that stuff about having a steak in

1098
00:50:44.699 --> 00:50:45.360
the future.

1099
00:50:45.420 --> 00:50:48.599
Like having children of your own doesn't just change the

1100
00:50:48.599 --> 00:50:51.599
relationship that you have with children, but it changes how you

1101
00:50:51.599 --> 00:50:53.400
feel about the future, I think.

1102
00:50:53.519 --> 00:50:58.619
And so, yeah, you know, definitely giving that to Gwen in this

1103
00:50:58.619 --> 00:50:59.159
episode.

1104
00:50:59.159 --> 00:51:02.760
And, you know, it's a great effect later on, I think, in episode

1105
00:51:02.760 --> 00:51:08.639
five, where she contemplates aborting the child because of this is

1106
00:51:08.639 --> 00:51:10.860
the world that we've got for the child to grow up in.

1107
00:51:10.920 --> 00:51:16.139
Um, you know, like I think that's, that adds, adds to the stakes, I

1108
00:51:16.139 --> 00:51:16.320
think.

1109
00:51:16.380 --> 00:51:20.099
But yeah, no, Gwen is a, she's such a sensational character.

1110
00:51:20.159 --> 00:51:21.119
She's such a sensational.

1111
00:51:21.179 --> 00:51:24.840
I mean, she's, she's, she is basically the hero of, of this series

1112
00:51:24.840 --> 00:51:25.739
of torchwood.

1113
00:51:25.800 --> 00:51:28.019
Like there's no, there's no doubt that she's the star.

1114
00:51:28.079 --> 00:51:33.000
So so last week we actually said that Andy Pryor was the hero of

1115
00:51:33.000 --> 00:51:35.460
this series.

1116
00:51:35.460 --> 00:51:36.360
Oh, as the casting, yeah.

1117
00:51:36.420 --> 00:51:38.940
So, yeah, there's so many...

1118
00:51:39.000 --> 00:51:41.039
Yeah, like I think Alice is stunning.

1119
00:51:41.099 --> 00:51:41.940
Rhiannon is stunning.

1120
00:51:42.000 --> 00:51:47.039
Yep, you know, Capaldi, um, um, Cush Jumbo.

1121
00:51:47.099 --> 00:51:48.119
Like...

1122
00:51:48.179 --> 00:51:48.960
They're just like incredible.

1123
00:51:49.019 --> 00:51:52.079
And that's so refreshing that everyone is good.

1124
00:51:52.139 --> 00:51:53.579
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1125
00:51:53.639 --> 00:51:54.119
Yeah.

1126
00:51:54.179 --> 00:51:57.659
And again, it shows you that trajectory that Torchwood was on.

1127
00:51:57.719 --> 00:52:01.860
Like it really didn't, it could attract that cast in that level of

1128
00:52:01.860 --> 00:52:04.559
talent by the time it got to BBC one in its 3rd year.

1129
00:52:04.619 --> 00:52:07.619
I mean, it's one of the reasons why I think Barrowman's an idiot

1130
00:52:07.619 --> 00:52:11.760
is because he was complaining and like he was complaining when

1131
00:52:11.760 --> 00:52:15.719
this came out, that we're being punished by getting an order of 5

1132
00:52:15.719 --> 00:52:20.460
episodes and it's kind of like this is 5 episodes on BBC One.

1133
00:52:20.519 --> 00:52:22.320
They're each an hour long.

1134
00:52:22.380 --> 00:52:26.219
It's going to be the focus of TV for that week.

1135
00:52:26.280 --> 00:52:28.679
Yeah, so it was on every night every night.

1136
00:52:28.739 --> 00:52:29.460
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1137
00:52:29.519 --> 00:52:33.300
Which, again, is one of the things that makes it so kind of

1138
00:52:33.300 --> 00:52:34.139
propulsive.

1139
00:52:34.199 --> 00:52:35.880
And, you know, it's wild.

1140
00:52:35.880 --> 00:52:38.159
Like those 80s miniseries, you know, like V.

1141
00:52:38.219 --> 00:52:39.059
Like V.

1142
00:52:39.119 --> 00:52:39.599
Yes, exactly.

1143
00:52:39.599 --> 00:52:40.800
The thorn bird.

1144
00:52:40.800 --> 00:52:44.880
Especially for when it when it came out because it was it was

1145
00:52:44.880 --> 00:52:49.260
supposedly in a sort of a dead zone because it dropped in the

1146
00:52:49.260 --> 00:52:51.420
middle of the summer, but that only meant that it was the only

1147
00:52:51.420 --> 00:52:52.199
thing on.

1148
00:52:52.260 --> 00:52:54.119
The only new thing on, even better.

1149
00:52:54.239 --> 00:52:58.440
Yeah, and so, and so, you know, that's why Melvin and I had to

1150
00:52:58.440 --> 00:53:01.679
watch the whole thing one after the other because it's designed to

1151
00:53:01.679 --> 00:53:03.480
be consumed in that way.

1152
00:53:03.539 --> 00:53:06.840
And, you know, the fact that we wait 2 hours for the aliens to

1153
00:53:06.840 --> 00:53:09.539
arrive doesn't matter because it's really they arrive on

1154
00:53:09.539 --> 00:53:10.019
Wednesday.

1155
00:53:12.719 --> 00:53:15.179
But I guess that's the thing.

1156
00:53:15.179 --> 00:53:16.559
It goes back to what you were saying, John, earlier, about it

1157
00:53:16.559 --> 00:53:18.960
being like a Netflix drama, a modern Netflix drama. is.

1158
00:53:19.019 --> 00:53:20.099
It's built like that.

1159
00:53:20.159 --> 00:53:21.360
It's built to binge.

1160
00:53:21.420 --> 00:53:22.199
Yeah, yeah.

1161
00:53:22.199 --> 00:53:24.239
And, you know, the whole thing would have dropped, would drop in

1162
00:53:24.239 --> 00:53:27.059
one hit and you'd sit down and you'd watch it in one weekend.

1163
00:53:27.119 --> 00:53:29.460
I unfortunately did not have the luxury of time over the past

1164
00:53:29.460 --> 00:53:29.820
week.

1165
00:53:29.880 --> 00:53:31.019
Yeah, not to do that.

1166
00:53:31.079 --> 00:53:34.320
But it's interesting to looking at, I mean, because I don't watch

1167
00:53:34.320 --> 00:53:38.820
21st century Doctor Who very often, if at all, you know, it's not

1168
00:53:38.820 --> 00:53:39.840
my comfort, go to food.

1169
00:53:39.900 --> 00:53:43.679
Nor do I go back and happen to see a television drama from 2009

1170
00:53:43.679 --> 00:53:44.340
very often.

1171
00:53:44.400 --> 00:53:48.360
And what's fascinating, I found about it is, you know, in the past

1172
00:53:48.360 --> 00:53:52.559
17 years, how styles and things have changed and the way things

1173
00:53:52.559 --> 00:53:53.039
are made.

1174
00:53:53.099 --> 00:53:55.619
I mean, I don't know this would this have been high definition or

1175
00:53:55.619 --> 00:53:56.579
was it still standard?

1176
00:53:56.639 --> 00:53:57.840
So this is my definition.

1177
00:53:57.900 --> 00:54:00.239
Okay, so Doctor Who and Torch would both go to HD.

1178
00:54:00.239 --> 00:54:02.760
Okay, because the gapier specials are HD.

1179
00:54:02.820 --> 00:54:03.059
Yeah.

1180
00:54:03.119 --> 00:54:06.420
So, but of course now things are 4K. And so it's more country.

1181
00:54:06.480 --> 00:54:09.420
But also the way things are made now in terms of production design

1182
00:54:09.420 --> 00:54:12.599
is much more muted in colouring.

1183
00:54:12.659 --> 00:54:15.840
There is so much more bright stuff. you know, there's people

1184
00:54:15.840 --> 00:54:17.219
wearing bright coloured t-shirts.

1185
00:54:17.280 --> 00:54:18.179
The curtains are bright.

1186
00:54:18.239 --> 00:54:21.840
There's blue tinted black backgrounds on walls and so on.

1187
00:54:21.900 --> 00:54:25.920
It is so much more colourful than the way TV and film is made

1188
00:54:25.920 --> 00:54:26.280
now.

1189
00:54:26.340 --> 00:54:27.300
I mean, it's a fashion thing.

1190
00:54:27.360 --> 00:54:29.579
It's a change of taste, but, you know, it's just interesting to

1191
00:54:29.579 --> 00:54:30.059
see the change.

1192
00:54:30.119 --> 00:54:32.579
I'm glad you said that because I thought it was my television.

1193
00:54:32.639 --> 00:54:35.639
I thought, oh, why is the graph so green?

1194
00:54:35.699 --> 00:54:36.300
Why simply?

1195
00:54:36.300 --> 00:54:38.760
But they actually overthought...

1196
00:54:38.820 --> 00:54:42.360
These are much more muted now in their in their grading, you

1197
00:54:42.360 --> 00:54:42.599
know.

1198
00:54:42.659 --> 00:54:44.880
Just think about Doctor Who at the time.

1199
00:54:44.940 --> 00:54:47.820
Like Russell's Doctor Who is very, very brightly coloured, very

1200
00:54:47.820 --> 00:54:48.719
very saturated.

1201
00:54:48.780 --> 00:54:53.760
And I remember something on the where there's some handheld stuff

1202
00:54:53.760 --> 00:54:59.460
in the next doctor and Russell is talking about how he spoke to

1203
00:54:59.460 --> 00:55:02.460
the director and said, actually, this is not what we do in Doctor

1204
00:55:02.460 --> 00:55:02.820
Who.

1205
00:55:02.880 --> 00:55:07.860
That's more of a torch would look, but I mean now, 16 years later

1206
00:55:07.860 --> 00:55:11.340
I think we said last week that this just looks like it was shot on

1207
00:55:11.340 --> 00:55:14.219
a videotape, really, because it is that sort of very immediate

1208
00:55:14.219 --> 00:55:15.000
bright coloured.

1209
00:55:15.059 --> 00:55:17.940
It's not muted the way that film is muted.

1210
00:55:18.000 --> 00:55:20.760
It really does look very television-y.

1211
00:55:20.880 --> 00:55:24.179
Well, yes, because in 2009, there is still a division between a

1212
00:55:24.179 --> 00:55:25.980
more of a division between television.

1213
00:55:26.039 --> 00:55:28.980
Whereas now the streaming services have blurred, completely

1214
00:55:28.980 --> 00:55:32.159
blurred that and television, any television is made for completely

1215
00:55:32.159 --> 00:55:33.000
filmically now.

1216
00:55:33.059 --> 00:55:34.260
You can barely tell a difference.

1217
00:55:34.320 --> 00:55:35.099
Well, that's right.

1218
00:55:35.159 --> 00:55:36.119
And TV hardware, too.

1219
00:55:36.179 --> 00:55:37.559
TV cover, exactly.

1220
00:55:37.619 --> 00:55:38.400
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

1221
00:55:38.460 --> 00:55:39.900
And our size of our screens and everything.

1222
00:55:39.960 --> 00:55:40.260
Exactly right.

1223
00:55:40.320 --> 00:55:42.179
Well, remember, we'd have still, I mean, we probably would have

1224
00:55:42.179 --> 00:55:43.920
watched this on still a cathode ray tube.

1225
00:55:43.980 --> 00:55:45.840
It would have been a wide screen television, but it was still a

1226
00:55:45.840 --> 00:55:47.099
CRT, I think, that I had.

1227
00:55:47.159 --> 00:55:51.480
And even then you were watching, we may have been watching it not

1228
00:55:51.480 --> 00:55:53.579
necessarily from a broadcast copy.

1229
00:55:53.639 --> 00:55:57.840
I wouldn't want to say how I watched it back in 2009, but it

1230
00:55:57.840 --> 00:56:00.480
wouldn't have been the best clarity either.

1231
00:56:00.539 --> 00:56:04.500
And it's fascinating how just the way we can see, even the way we

1232
00:56:04.500 --> 00:56:05.039
consume things.

1233
00:56:05.099 --> 00:56:07.739
Like people, I mean, the streaming services like I view and

1234
00:56:07.739 --> 00:56:12.960
iPlayer, they'd started by then, but they weren't nearly as big as

1235
00:56:12.960 --> 00:56:13.559
they are now.

1236
00:56:13.619 --> 00:56:17.219
Like you just don't watch anything live to wear. you know, as it's

1237
00:56:17.219 --> 00:56:17.820
broadcast anymore.

1238
00:56:17.880 --> 00:56:18.239
No.

1239
00:56:18.300 --> 00:56:18.780
Yeah.

1240
00:56:19.079 --> 00:56:21.360
And that and that's another thing.

1241
00:56:21.420 --> 00:56:25.800
Like, this is such a pivot, a pivot point. like 2009 because it's

1242
00:56:25.800 --> 00:56:28.440
the end of, it's the year of specials in Doctor Who.

1243
00:56:28.500 --> 00:56:32.039
Um, uh, uh, you can still see the phones they're using are like

1244
00:56:32.039 --> 00:56:35.340
barely above flip phone. like we're not into smartphones.

1245
00:56:35.400 --> 00:56:36.840
There's a camera, but that's it, yeah.

1246
00:56:36.900 --> 00:56:37.260
Yeah.

1247
00:56:37.320 --> 00:56:39.719
So, I mean, but again, like there's there's something about this

1248
00:56:39.719 --> 00:56:45.420
and where it sits in in time, as it were, that makes it, you know

1249
00:56:45.420 --> 00:56:48.420
not only forward thinking in terms of like the format of the TV

1250
00:56:48.420 --> 00:56:52.079
show, being precient for the kind of television that we've

1251
00:56:52.079 --> 00:56:55.679
consumed over the last 10 years, especially the last five, 8 years

1252
00:56:55.679 --> 00:56:59.880
even more, especially, but like the the topicality of stuff.

1253
00:56:59.940 --> 00:57:02.340
Like thinking again about it really.

1254
00:57:02.400 --> 00:57:05.760
I mean, it hit me hard, seeing them take those, take, like the

1255
00:57:05.760 --> 00:57:08.099
army taking children, like that was.

1256
00:57:08.159 --> 00:57:10.920
I mean, it's scary, and then listen, what you were saying earlier

1257
00:57:10.920 --> 00:57:14.039
about Gwen saying, what kind of, what kind of world, you know

1258
00:57:14.039 --> 00:57:15.840
would you want to raise a child in a world like this?

1259
00:57:15.900 --> 00:57:19.380
I mean, think about what the last 17 years have wrought.

1260
00:57:19.440 --> 00:57:21.719
Like, when has a point, when has a point?

1261
00:57:21.780 --> 00:57:24.179
Like, it's a it's a nasty world.

1262
00:57:24.239 --> 00:57:29.219
It's a horrible world, but also like the, again, just like the

1263
00:57:29.219 --> 00:57:31.679
government, what we were talking about earlier, being willing to

1264
00:57:31.679 --> 00:57:35.940
like spin the transactionality of lives into, you know, thinking

1265
00:57:35.940 --> 00:57:36.960
of children as units.

1266
00:57:37.019 --> 00:57:40.800
Like, there's just something really monstrous about what's going

1267
00:57:40.800 --> 00:57:42.780
on here that has nothing to do with aliens.

1268
00:57:42.840 --> 00:57:46.800
And I just think that there's something, again, like, just, that

1269
00:57:46.800 --> 00:57:49.440
when this came out, it was just a pivot point that, like, we

1270
00:57:49.440 --> 00:57:52.380
couldn't have foreseen what the world would become, like, either

1271
00:57:52.380 --> 00:57:56.159
technologically, in terms of, like, broadcast, uh, the way we

1272
00:57:56.159 --> 00:58:00.000
consume television, any of these things, like, uh, uh, uh, the

1273
00:58:00.000 --> 00:58:03.420
fact that, you know, that Ento's, you know, computer even works in

1274
00:58:03.420 --> 00:58:08.400
a, in a, in a, in that warehouse, like, it's crazy, like, again, I

1275
00:58:08.400 --> 00:58:12.059
there's just a lot happening here that, that, that, you know, we

1276
00:58:12.059 --> 00:58:14.699
could take another 3 hours to sort, sort of unpack it all.

1277
00:58:14.760 --> 00:58:18.780
I think the other thing about watching it with a, with a

1278
00:58:18.780 --> 00:58:23.940
perspective from 2026 is thinking about John Barriman's reputation

1279
00:58:23.940 --> 00:58:25.139
and what's happened to that.

1280
00:58:25.199 --> 00:58:28.679
And before we started recording, I was saying, day two, is that

1281
00:58:28.679 --> 00:58:31.380
the one where he ends up butt naked in a quarry as that was

1282
00:58:31.380 --> 00:58:33.000
clearly the most memorable thing?

1283
00:58:33.119 --> 00:58:34.679
in the episode.

1284
00:58:34.739 --> 00:58:38.219
And yet watching that sequence again.

1285
00:58:38.280 --> 00:58:43.260
I was thinking about the production team sort of buying into

1286
00:58:43.260 --> 00:58:45.239
Barrowman's own reputation.

1287
00:58:45.300 --> 00:58:50.880
As, you know, he was, he's been criticised for his, um, his antics

1288
00:58:50.880 --> 00:58:51.360
on set.

1289
00:58:51.420 --> 00:58:54.000
There's been a whole sort of, there's been a whole sort of

1290
00:58:54.000 --> 00:58:55.500
postmodem on all that.

1291
00:58:55.559 --> 00:59:00.599
Um, but before that happened, he was sort of cheeky chap, he was

1292
00:59:00.599 --> 00:59:01.980
sort of, uh, he was sort of rude.

1293
00:59:02.039 --> 00:59:03.119
He was all those sort of things.

1294
00:59:03.179 --> 00:59:06.360
And I wondered, do you do you write, I think you write that last

1295
00:59:06.360 --> 00:59:09.179
scene of them in the quarry and him crawling out and they could

1296
00:59:09.179 --> 00:59:11.099
kind of knowing that's his persona.

1297
00:59:11.159 --> 00:59:14.219
Kind of understanding that that's the sort of actor he is and we

1298
00:59:14.219 --> 00:59:16.260
can get him to do that. you know.

1299
00:59:16.320 --> 00:59:18.659
And so it's having to be naked on the set.

1300
00:59:18.719 --> 00:59:20.940
Yeah, so I think it's an artefact of its time.

1301
00:59:21.000 --> 00:59:24.719
It shows that actually there was something, um, something

1302
00:59:24.719 --> 00:59:29.460
understood, I think, about his his reputation and what that meant

1303
00:59:29.460 --> 00:59:30.000
for the program.

1304
00:59:30.119 --> 00:59:35.519
I think, though, too, there is, you know, that that he's reduced

1305
00:59:35.519 --> 00:59:36.539
in this episode.

1306
00:59:36.599 --> 00:59:37.559
Do you know what I mean?

1307
00:59:37.619 --> 00:59:41.159
Like, literally reduced to just kind of a bag of bits, I think

1308
00:59:41.159 --> 00:59:42.179
Johnson says.

1309
00:59:42.179 --> 00:59:48.239
And so when he emerges, he's he's naked, but he's not sexy naked

1310
00:59:48.239 --> 00:59:49.380
in any way.

1311
00:59:49.380 --> 00:59:54.900
And and he's filthy and kind of dogged and stuff.

1312
00:59:54.960 --> 00:59:59.639
And, you know, like I made that crack about how, you know, Gwen is

1313
00:59:59.639 --> 01:00:04.320
trying desperately not to look at him, like to try and look away

1314
01:00:04.320 --> 01:00:07.079
even though she knows what it looks like by that point.

1315
01:00:07.139 --> 01:00:10.260
And then he, you know, takes the jacket and doesn't cover

1316
01:00:10.260 --> 01:00:11.219
himself.

1317
01:00:11.280 --> 01:00:14.820
And he just goes, screw it and just walks doggedly towards the car

1318
01:00:14.820 --> 01:00:19.320
through the mud, you know, like, but I think, I mean, I'm

1319
01:00:19.320 --> 01:00:19.679
interested.

1320
01:00:19.739 --> 01:00:21.539
Yeah, it's interesting to talk about whether that's a kind of a

1321
01:00:21.539 --> 01:00:23.880
deliberate choice from knowing, you know, the production knowing

1322
01:00:23.880 --> 01:00:25.800
what kind of actor he is.

1323
01:00:25.860 --> 01:00:29.579
I'm sort of wondering whether it's partly the way he chooses to

1324
01:00:29.579 --> 01:00:32.519
shoot the scene because that is the kind of actor that he walks

1325
01:00:32.519 --> 01:00:32.820
like that.

1326
01:00:32.880 --> 01:00:36.719
But also Gwen kind of, the way she looks away and kind of, she

1327
01:00:36.719 --> 01:00:39.659
almost kind of glances heavenward when he just walks up to a

1328
01:00:39.659 --> 01:00:42.119
completely naked and he, and she hands him the coat.

1329
01:00:42.179 --> 01:00:46.199
It's that thing of like, you know, oh, for God's sake, Jack, of

1330
01:00:46.199 --> 01:00:48.599
course that you're going to walk towards me naked, not caring.

1331
01:00:48.659 --> 01:00:51.480
Like, you know, for God's sake, put it, put it, put something on.

1332
01:00:51.539 --> 01:00:52.260
You know what I mean?

1333
01:00:52.320 --> 01:00:54.659
Like, I'm almost seeing that as well in it.

1334
01:00:54.719 --> 01:00:57.719
And also remember, if he is an entity that's like, you know, 100s

1335
01:00:57.719 --> 01:01:01.500
and 100s and 100s of years old, it's not unreasonable that he's

1336
01:01:01.500 --> 01:01:02.940
completely relaxed to do that.

1337
01:01:03.000 --> 01:01:06.659
But, I mean, he has been just kind of physically humiliated and so

1338
01:01:06.659 --> 01:01:07.260
on.

1339
01:01:07.260 --> 01:01:07.800
Do you know what I mean?

1340
01:01:07.860 --> 01:01:11.280
Like he's literally reduced her, this sort of gory skeleton. in

1341
01:01:11.280 --> 01:01:15.960
this episode. and and so and he's tired and all of that.

1342
01:01:16.019 --> 01:01:18.119
Like, I think there's a defeat there.

1343
01:01:18.179 --> 01:01:21.239
And then he comes back from that defeat, I think.

1344
01:01:21.300 --> 01:01:23.760
And that's one of the things that I definitely wanted to talk

1345
01:01:23.760 --> 01:01:24.000
about.

1346
01:01:24.059 --> 01:01:26.940
And I was talking about it earlier about how, you know, one of the

1347
01:01:26.940 --> 01:01:31.199
things about Berman's sort of fraught legacy, uh, but one thing

1348
01:01:31.199 --> 01:01:33.780
that is not deniable is that in these 5 episodes, you know, whether

1349
01:01:33.780 --> 01:01:38.340
however he or Gwen choose to play certain moments, the character

1350
01:01:38.340 --> 01:01:41.940
is written as almost explicitly non-heroic.

1351
01:01:42.059 --> 01:01:46.739
Like the Jack character is sidelined for most of for most of the 5

1352
01:01:46.739 --> 01:01:51.119
episodes, and he's never, in any, in anyone's mouth or anyone's

1353
01:01:51.119 --> 01:01:55.679
mind, especially his, his, uh, his daughter, um, like he's never

1354
01:01:55.679 --> 01:02:01.320
presented as someone who is heroic or a role model or anyone that

1355
01:02:01.320 --> 01:02:04.559
we should want to look up to or want to emulate in really almost

1356
01:02:04.559 --> 01:02:05.940
any way conceivable.

1357
01:02:06.000 --> 01:02:09.179
Uh, and that, that, you know, we were talking about, you know, his

1358
01:02:09.179 --> 01:02:10.619
body being shown not being sexy.

1359
01:02:10.679 --> 01:02:14.280
The other body that's shown in this episode is Johnny's body when

1360
01:02:14.280 --> 01:02:17.159
they, when the soldiers go through the, are going through the

1361
01:02:17.159 --> 01:02:17.460
apartment.

1362
01:02:17.519 --> 01:02:18.659
That's also not very sexy.

1363
01:02:18.719 --> 01:02:21.960
But one of the things about, you know, it goes to what I was going

1364
01:02:21.960 --> 01:02:25.500
to say earlier about masculinity and the way that masculinity and

1365
01:02:25.500 --> 01:02:28.860
femininity are delineated in children of earth, is that for

1366
01:02:28.860 --> 01:02:34.619
whatever reason, it is women who are competent, stable, physical

1367
01:02:34.619 --> 01:02:36.360
capable.

1368
01:02:36.420 --> 01:02:38.940
I mean, you see with when when we were talking about Gwen earlier

1369
01:02:38.940 --> 01:02:42.119
like Gwen, her character is written in such a way that she can go

1370
01:02:42.119 --> 01:02:47.099
from, you know, 2 guns blazing to having a, you know, uh, to

1371
01:02:47.099 --> 01:02:49.860
having that sort of tender, intimate moment with Reese in the

1372
01:02:49.860 --> 01:02:53.159
potato truck, like within within moments of each other.

1373
01:02:53.219 --> 01:02:56.460
Like, there's something really, I don't know, there's something

1374
01:02:56.460 --> 01:02:59.579
more complex about the way that women are written in this

1375
01:02:59.579 --> 01:03:03.239
particular series that really, like, that really stood out to me

1376
01:03:03.239 --> 01:03:04.019
on this rewatch.

1377
01:03:04.079 --> 01:03:05.820
And I think it's something that we should hash out at least a

1378
01:03:05.820 --> 01:03:08.519
little bit, at least in the way that it happens in this episode

1379
01:03:08.519 --> 01:03:11.219
because we have so many, like you were saying, we have a panoply

1380
01:03:11.219 --> 01:03:11.760
of characters.

1381
01:03:11.820 --> 01:03:17.099
And, I mean, it's also almost in a way, like the Russell, the RTD

1382
01:03:17.099 --> 01:03:20.280
version of sort of the Canterbury Tales, children of Earth, because

1383
01:03:20.280 --> 01:03:25.739
Dryden or Dryden, John Dryden, the poet said of Chaucer's

1384
01:03:25.739 --> 01:03:27.659
Canterbury Tales, here is God's plenty.

1385
01:03:27.719 --> 01:03:30.420
In other words, like here is like, you're going to see everything

1386
01:03:30.420 --> 01:03:33.719
that there is about humanity in the course of this work.

1387
01:03:33.780 --> 01:03:37.619
And I feel like children of earth gives us a cast like that.

1388
01:03:37.679 --> 01:03:39.900
And again, the way that the men and the women are delineated

1389
01:03:39.900 --> 01:03:43.079
really plays a huge part in the structure of that world.

1390
01:03:43.199 --> 01:03:47.099
I think, you know, the one person who knows Jack more than anyone

1391
01:03:47.099 --> 01:03:50.460
else who we had never heard of and is part of, you know, that

1392
01:03:50.460 --> 01:03:51.960
secret life is Alice.

1393
01:03:51.960 --> 01:03:57.360
And when Alice describes him, she just says, you're dangerous.

1394
01:03:57.420 --> 01:04:00.119
You know, you're not experimenting on my son.

1395
01:04:00.179 --> 01:04:03.179
You know, you have to stay away.

1396
01:04:03.239 --> 01:04:05.400
This is why I ask you to stay away.

1397
01:04:05.460 --> 01:04:11.820
And so the conclusion, I think, is inevitable and not unexpected.

1398
01:04:11.820 --> 01:04:14.699
And I think it works extremely well.

1399
01:04:14.699 --> 01:04:18.900
And we'll get there because I think there's a good deal of moral

1400
01:04:18.900 --> 01:04:20.760
complexity around all of that.

1401
01:04:20.820 --> 01:04:23.760
It's interesting, though, if I can just get back to Barriman's

1402
01:04:23.760 --> 01:04:27.239
nakedness in the quarry, is that, I mean, you say sort of it's not

1403
01:04:27.239 --> 01:04:31.920
sexy and I don't think that's, I mean, I don't know about that.

1404
01:04:31.980 --> 01:04:35.579
I just think he just needed to, he work out a bit more.

1405
01:04:35.639 --> 01:04:38.039
Oh, no, no, I don't mean it's not sexy because he's like

1406
01:04:38.039 --> 01:04:39.300
physically flabby or anything like that.

1407
01:04:39.360 --> 01:04:40.619
I don't care about that at all.

1408
01:04:40.679 --> 01:04:45.840
Um, I, but it's not sexy naked in the way that the previous, the

1409
01:04:45.840 --> 01:04:49.440
previous time that Russell tried to get Barrowman's butt crack on

1410
01:04:49.440 --> 01:04:52.199
BBC One was...

1411
01:04:52.260 --> 01:04:55.199
Yeah, the Trini and Susana scene, where he was not permitted to

1412
01:04:55.199 --> 01:04:56.099
have the butt crack.

1413
01:04:56.460 --> 01:04:58.139
But he couldn't.

1414
01:04:58.199 --> 01:05:00.719
Right And so I think he wants to have it here.

1415
01:05:00.780 --> 01:05:03.420
And that is sexy.

1416
01:05:03.480 --> 01:05:06.360
You know, like Barrowman, he's in better shape then.

1417
01:05:06.420 --> 01:05:07.440
He's a few years younger.

1418
01:05:07.440 --> 01:05:08.579
But it's not just that.

1419
01:05:08.699 --> 01:05:12.659
It is that it's about him being swaggeringly confident and happy

1420
01:05:12.659 --> 01:05:13.320
with being naked.

1421
01:05:13.440 --> 01:05:17.099
He's doing it in front of these women, like who are not cowered by

1422
01:05:17.099 --> 01:05:20.820
him, but it is in a situation where he's, you know, being cocky

1423
01:05:20.820 --> 01:05:21.659
for want of a better word.

1424
01:05:21.719 --> 01:05:22.800
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1425
01:05:22.860 --> 01:05:26.340
And that, whereas here he's just tired and filthy and slow

1426
01:05:26.340 --> 01:05:27.780
moving.

1427
01:05:27.840 --> 01:05:28.920
Yes, yes, yes, yes.

1428
01:05:36.659 --> 01:05:40.800
It's a Melbourne's point about our gender's portrayed.

1429
01:05:40.860 --> 01:05:45.420
Actually, I think, for me, the fact is that we have male and

1430
01:05:45.420 --> 01:05:50.340
female characters, both being heroic and capable and villainous

1431
01:05:50.340 --> 01:05:54.599
and all of those sort of things, it's not drawn attention to, it's

1432
01:05:54.599 --> 01:05:55.619
just there.

1433
01:05:55.679 --> 01:06:00.960
And I think that that's the delineation, that, um, you know, you

1434
01:06:00.960 --> 01:06:03.719
could, you could have a female prime minister if you wanted.

1435
01:06:03.780 --> 01:06:05.579
You could have a female frobisher if you wanted.

1436
01:06:05.639 --> 01:06:09.360
You could have a, you know, you could, it's not presented as

1437
01:06:09.360 --> 01:06:11.340
anything other than this is the norm.

1438
01:06:11.460 --> 01:06:16.980
You know, that that both men and women have uh, have a role in

1439
01:06:16.980 --> 01:06:20.940
both villainy and in heroism in this, in this world, the children

1440
01:06:20.940 --> 01:06:21.900
of earth is set in.

1441
01:06:21.900 --> 01:06:27.059
I mean, if there's a villain, it's Frobisher, isn't it?

1442
01:06:27.119 --> 01:06:30.239
Like, if you want to just sort of put your finger on someone.

1443
01:06:30.300 --> 01:06:31.980
He's the one who does the blank page.

1444
01:06:32.039 --> 01:06:36.300
He's the one who is sending people to kill Jack and Yanto and

1445
01:06:36.300 --> 01:06:37.500
Gwen.

1446
01:06:37.559 --> 01:06:39.780
In a sense, he's the villain.

1447
01:06:39.840 --> 01:06:43.380
And then later on in the series, we're going to get Bridget speech

1448
01:06:43.380 --> 01:06:45.239
about him being a good man.

1449
01:06:45.239 --> 01:06:48.000
And what does any of that mean?

1450
01:06:48.059 --> 01:06:50.400
And, you know, he's a father.

1451
01:06:50.460 --> 01:06:52.920
He's concerned for his children, all of that stuff.

1452
01:06:52.980 --> 01:06:55.739
Yeah, but that's what makes it an adult drama.

1453
01:06:55.739 --> 01:06:56.280
Exactly right.

1454
01:06:56.340 --> 01:06:58.619
Because of the fact that he's not sitting there swelling his

1455
01:06:58.619 --> 01:06:59.159
moustache.

1456
01:06:59.219 --> 01:07:01.019
And he's not even doing what he thinks is right.

1457
01:07:01.079 --> 01:07:05.699
He's doing what he knows to be wrong because he thinks that there

1458
01:07:05.699 --> 01:07:08.219
is a greater good that will be served from it.

1459
01:07:08.280 --> 01:07:11.519
And he's terribly uncomfortable doing all those things.

1460
01:07:11.579 --> 01:07:14.880
He doesn't hand the paper, the blank, the file with the blank

1461
01:07:14.880 --> 01:07:18.719
paper, with glee, with wow, we're going to kill them all.

1462
01:07:18.780 --> 01:07:21.719
It is he's not happy doing it.

1463
01:07:21.780 --> 01:07:23.940
He's not happy doing any of that. and that's what makes it

1464
01:07:23.940 --> 01:07:24.300
interesting.

1465
01:07:24.360 --> 01:07:27.179
That's the kind of villain, quote unquote, that I want to see

1466
01:07:27.179 --> 01:07:30.239
because I want to see that they've got, they are doing this for a

1467
01:07:30.239 --> 01:07:31.440
greater purpose.

1468
01:07:31.500 --> 01:07:34.380
But maybe it isn't even that, though, too.

1469
01:07:34.440 --> 01:07:38.039
Maybe it isn't that he's aware of a greater purpose here. aware of

1470
01:07:38.039 --> 01:07:38.519
it hopeful.

1471
01:07:38.579 --> 01:07:40.800
Well, or, do you know what I mean?

1472
01:07:40.860 --> 01:07:41.340
I'm trapped.

1473
01:07:41.340 --> 01:07:41.880
This is all...

1474
01:07:41.880 --> 01:07:42.420
That's exactly it.

1475
01:07:42.539 --> 01:07:45.539
Because you have the contrast between him and Lois.

1476
01:07:45.599 --> 01:07:45.960
Yes.

1477
01:07:45.960 --> 01:07:49.260
There's all this institutional history that he has that Lois

1478
01:07:49.260 --> 01:07:49.860
doesn't have.

1479
01:07:49.920 --> 01:07:52.860
So Lois is free to commit treason on Tuesday.

1480
01:07:52.920 --> 01:07:53.820
Yes.

1481
01:07:53.820 --> 01:07:55.920
After starting work on Monday.

1482
01:07:55.980 --> 01:07:58.320
Whereas he can't do any of that.

1483
01:07:58.320 --> 01:07:58.980
He's far too gone.

1484
01:07:59.039 --> 01:07:59.880
He's far too gone.

1485
01:07:59.940 --> 01:08:02.519
And that is always something more interesting to them.

1486
01:08:02.579 --> 01:08:04.559
That's why going back to what I said earlier about the Prime

1487
01:08:04.559 --> 01:08:05.639
Minister's characterisation.

1488
01:08:05.699 --> 01:08:07.260
That's like He's a little bit too evil.

1489
01:08:07.320 --> 01:08:08.579
It's like, no, no, no, no, no, no.

1490
01:08:08.639 --> 01:08:11.340
That's why I think that the Prime Minister's characterisation

1491
01:08:11.340 --> 01:08:15.780
earlier is poor because it's just it's cardboard.

1492
01:08:15.840 --> 01:08:19.380
Well, in fact, I think there's a really a fairly weak speech in

1493
01:08:19.380 --> 01:08:24.300
episode one where he says that, you know, I feel like I'm

1494
01:08:24.300 --> 01:08:25.619
undersieged from above.

1495
01:08:25.680 --> 01:08:28.500
There are constant aliens here and you kind of think, oh, so

1496
01:08:28.500 --> 01:08:30.180
you're evil for space reasons.

1497
01:08:31.020 --> 01:08:35.039
So, and I'm right thinking, because I haven't watched it, the rest

1498
01:08:35.039 --> 01:08:35.340
of it.

1499
01:08:35.399 --> 01:08:39.720
So they have to decide the 10% of the children have to be sent off

1500
01:08:39.720 --> 01:08:44.039
to like be eaten by these gas creatures or whatever they are.

1501
01:08:44.279 --> 01:08:47.460
And they're selected from the lower socioeconomic rungs of the

1502
01:08:47.460 --> 01:08:47.640
thing.

1503
01:08:47.699 --> 01:08:47.939
Right.

1504
01:08:48.000 --> 01:08:50.939
There's a fabulous character called Denise, who says, what on

1505
01:08:50.939 --> 01:08:52.800
earth are the school league tables for?

1506
01:08:53.220 --> 01:08:58.079
Oh, that's so...

1507
01:08:58.079 --> 01:09:00.000
She's left in charge at the end. by the way.

1508
01:09:00.060 --> 01:09:01.739
Yeah, all right, okay, okay, okay.

1509
01:09:01.800 --> 01:09:02.699
Yes, yeah.

1510
01:09:02.760 --> 01:09:04.979
And it's not, it's not to be eaten.

1511
01:09:05.039 --> 01:09:07.500
They're to be used as recreational drugs.

1512
01:09:07.560 --> 01:09:09.659
Right, well, consumed in some way.

1513
01:09:09.720 --> 01:09:10.920
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1514
01:09:10.979 --> 01:09:14.039
But nevertheless, is that done in a way which is we have to do

1515
01:09:14.039 --> 01:09:14.279
this.

1516
01:09:14.340 --> 01:09:17.399
We have to sacrifice 10% of our children so that the other 90% can

1517
01:09:17.399 --> 01:09:17.760
survive.

1518
01:09:17.880 --> 01:09:22.199
Yes, but there's very much a no one around this table is going to

1519
01:09:22.199 --> 01:09:23.520
be affected by what happens.

1520
01:09:23.579 --> 01:09:24.600
How do we make sure that no?

1521
01:09:24.659 --> 01:09:25.500
Yeah, yeah, that's right.

1522
01:09:25.560 --> 01:09:27.720
And that's why, and that's, and that makes, and that makes

1523
01:09:27.720 --> 01:09:31.680
Frobisher's character, not even really a, a villain so much as a

1524
01:09:31.680 --> 01:09:34.500
tragic, like, I mean, it's a proper credit.

1525
01:09:34.500 --> 01:09:35.039
He's horrified.

1526
01:09:35.039 --> 01:09:39.180
Sorry, it really, it really got me because I had forgotten, like, I

1527
01:09:39.180 --> 01:09:43.439
remembered that he, and sorry, spoilers for a 17-year-old show, uh

1528
01:09:43.439 --> 01:09:48.300
that he commits suicide, but I had forgotten that he, it's, and if

1529
01:09:48.300 --> 01:09:53.220
he had waited 20 minutes, if he had wait, that it's, it's, it's

1530
01:09:53.220 --> 01:09:53.880
terrible to watch.

1531
01:09:53.939 --> 01:09:57.420
And like that was the word that came into my mind when I watched

1532
01:09:57.420 --> 01:09:59.640
it, it was just, it's tragic what happens to him.

1533
01:09:59.699 --> 01:10:03.659
But again, like, but he is a career civil servant, and this is

1534
01:10:03.659 --> 01:10:08.460
like, there's, it's the, you know, to, to, to, uh, uh, reuse, uh

1535
01:10:08.460 --> 01:10:11.340
uh, a very tired phrase, the sort of banality of evil.

1536
01:10:11.399 --> 01:10:13.439
It's not even, it's not even evil.

1537
01:10:13.500 --> 01:10:16.079
It's just function. he just a functionary.

1538
01:10:16.140 --> 01:10:17.460
He's just doing his job.

1539
01:10:18.000 --> 01:10:23.100
And that's, it's that sort of tragedy, which is, I think, why, as

1540
01:10:23.100 --> 01:10:26.399
I said before, this is why it makes it a grown-up drama.

1541
01:10:26.460 --> 01:10:29.340
And I think it's sometimes even though, you know, Doctor Who's a

1542
01:10:29.340 --> 01:10:33.720
family show. when Doctor Who is, it is at its best, we see aspects

1543
01:10:33.720 --> 01:10:36.840
of this, not to the same degree, but we see this sort of stuff in

1544
01:10:36.840 --> 01:10:40.020
it, they're always, for me, the stronger stories because there's a

1545
01:10:40.020 --> 01:10:42.779
sense of, as well as a sense of right and wrong.

1546
01:10:42.840 --> 01:10:46.500
There's a sense of people struggling to make the right choice as

1547
01:10:46.500 --> 01:10:47.399
opposed to just being evil.

1548
01:10:47.520 --> 01:10:50.340
I mean, sometimes the villain's just a billionaire who wants to

1549
01:10:50.340 --> 01:10:51.539
have sex with a plant, though.

1550
01:10:51.600 --> 01:10:52.619
And that's fine, I think.

1551
01:11:20.159 --> 01:11:23.039
Well, that's over time we'll have for this week.

1552
01:11:23.100 --> 01:11:26.939
We'll be back next week for a ringside seat with the 456 in

1553
01:11:26.939 --> 01:11:29.399
Torchwood Children of Earth, day three.

1554
01:11:29.520 --> 01:11:33.359
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts

1555
01:11:33.359 --> 01:11:37.260
and you can keep up with us on our website, 500yearDiary.com, where

1556
01:11:37.260 --> 01:11:40.260
you'll find our social media links, as well as links to all of our

1557
01:11:40.260 --> 01:11:44.760
other podcasts, including the entirety of flight or entirety, which

1558
01:11:44.760 --> 01:11:48.600
comprises every episode of our 4 Doctor Who podcasts.

1559
01:11:48.840 --> 01:11:53.100
Until next time, remember to always touch up your Lippy before

1560
01:11:53.100 --> 01:11:56.220
withdrawing money from the automatic telemachine.

1561
01:11:56.279 --> 01:11:58.079
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

1562
01:11:58.140 --> 01:11:59.279
Good night.

1563
01:11:59.340 --> 01:12:00.239
Good night.

1564
01:12:00.300 --> 01:12:00.899
Bye bye.

1565
01:12:11.399 --> 01:12:16.020
That was 500 Year Diary, starring Nathan Bottomley, Simon Moore

1566
01:12:16.020 --> 01:12:17.939
Melvin Penya, and Johnny Spandrel.

1567
01:12:18.000 --> 01:12:20.220
The theme was composed by Cameron Lamb.

1568
01:12:20.279 --> 01:12:22.439
This episode, Treason on Tuesday.

1569
01:12:22.500 --> 01:12:26.159
It was recorded on the 1st of March, 2026 and released on the 22nd

1570
01:12:26.159 --> 01:12:26.939
of March.

1571
01:12:27.000 --> 01:12:31.739
Fans of British TV will enjoy the latest episode of the three

1572
01:12:31.079 --> 01:12:34.920
handed game, in which our very own Brendan and Richard interview

1573
01:12:34.920 --> 01:12:39.119
Australian actress Annette Andre, who had a long career in British

1574
01:12:39.119 --> 01:12:42.420
and Australian television, including an episode each of the

1575
01:12:42.420 --> 01:12:44.159
Avengers and the new Avengers.

1576
01:12:44.279 --> 01:12:47.760
Search for the 3 handed game wherever you get your podcasts.

1577
01:12:57.720 --> 01:13:00.119
And that's the hardest thing.

1578
01:13:00.119 --> 01:13:00.960
I'm sorry.

1579
01:13:00.960 --> 01:13:03.659
I want to go out.

1580
01:13:03.720 --> 01:13:05.460
The hardest thing when you get there.

1581
01:13:05.760 --> 01:13:09.180
And that's the hardest thing when you get there, Simon, is that

1582
01:13:09.180 --> 01:13:13.199
the choice he has to make, he makes because he knows he knows

1583
01:13:13.199 --> 01:13:16.859
what's going to happen to the children and it is...

1584
01:13:16.920 --> 01:13:18.779
It's one of the most awful things I've ever seen.

1585
01:13:18.840 --> 01:13:21.659
Like, I just, I did not remember how awful that was.

1586
01:13:21.720 --> 01:13:22.800
Yeah.

1587
01:13:22.859 --> 01:13:26.699
And in another reading of it, the villain is is Jack, right?

1588
01:13:26.760 --> 01:13:31.079
Because he's the one who made a terrible choice years ago, which

1589
01:13:31.079 --> 01:13:33.479
has all, yeah, and these repercussions later on.

1590
01:13:33.659 --> 01:13:38.819
Though it is, you know, again, we keep using this term adult drama

1591
01:13:38.819 --> 01:13:40.560
when we might just use the term drama.

1592
01:13:40.619 --> 01:13:44.939
But the, um, but one of the great things about it is that it's

1593
01:13:44.939 --> 01:13:47.880
difficult to pinpoint exactly who is in the wrong, exactly.

1594
01:13:47.880 --> 01:13:49.140
Children of Earth. you know.

1595
01:13:49.260 --> 01:13:52.439
Yeah, I mean, I think there's there's very, you know, there are

1596
01:13:52.439 --> 01:13:57.180
people who are openly heroic like Rhiannon and Lois, I think, you

1597
01:13:57.180 --> 01:14:02.100
know, are both like Rhiannon is is saving everyone's children, so

1598
01:14:02.100 --> 01:14:03.479
they can go to work.

1599
01:14:03.899 --> 01:14:08.100
And on that last day where she sends kids out to say quick, you

1600
01:14:08.100 --> 01:14:10.800
know, because she knows that they're coming for the children.

1601
01:14:10.920 --> 01:14:13.619
Like Yanto has said, don't let them get David and Misha.

1602
01:14:13.859 --> 01:14:18.779
And so she saves, like, tries to save everyone's children on the

1603
01:14:18.779 --> 01:14:19.260
estate.

1604
01:14:19.260 --> 01:14:22.680
And like, and that's a tremendous, you know, and I think that's

1605
01:14:22.680 --> 01:14:26.579
the real high point of episode 5 when all this horrible stuff is

1606
01:14:26.579 --> 01:14:27.000
happening.

1607
01:14:27.060 --> 01:14:30.600
And Lois, you know, like who is just a solidly good person.

1608
01:14:30.600 --> 01:14:32.579
And, and there's that thing.

1609
01:14:32.640 --> 01:14:35.579
I didn't sign the official Secrets Act, so I could cover up

1610
01:14:35.579 --> 01:14:36.060
murder.

1611
01:14:36.119 --> 01:14:37.800
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1612
01:14:37.859 --> 01:14:41.039
Like, uh, like it's, it's pretty great and she is, she's pretty

1613
01:14:41.039 --> 01:14:41.340
good.

1614
01:14:41.399 --> 01:14:44.340
It's so good I don't know when she's had time to sign the official

1615
01:14:44.340 --> 01:14:44.819
secrets.

1616
01:14:44.880 --> 01:14:46.140
She only started on Monday.

1617
01:14:46.199 --> 01:14:47.340
Well, no one even knows her.

1618
01:14:47.399 --> 01:14:50.520
Like, it's just like that you employed her and now Bridget's going

1619
01:14:50.520 --> 01:14:52.619
hello, I'm Lois, I think, because you didn't meet her at the job

1620
01:14:52.619 --> 01:14:53.220
interview.

1621
01:14:53.279 --> 01:14:54.840
Okay, HR.

1622
01:14:54.840 --> 01:14:56.939
And HR got to the same...

1623
01:14:57.000 --> 01:14:59.340
See, it was an orientation day last.

1624
01:14:59.399 --> 01:15:02.039
Okay, all right. and got her swipe.

1625
01:15:02.819 --> 01:15:07.560
Well, and that's the other computer password. she's asked to

1626
01:15:07.560 --> 01:15:09.119
provide with computer password, yes.

1627
01:15:09.420 --> 01:15:13.140
And that's one of the other things that comes up, you know, again

1628
01:15:13.140 --> 01:15:16.319
it's a very minor theme, but it is a theme throughout the

1629
01:15:16.319 --> 01:15:20.760
throughout the, throughout the series is, again, like the, the way

1630
01:15:20.760 --> 01:15:24.300
that, the way that governments are run, you know, the way that, and

1631
01:15:24.300 --> 01:15:27.720
it's all governments because, you know, we see when the Americans

1632
01:15:27.720 --> 01:15:31.380
come and stick their head in, including the, the general from

1633
01:15:31.380 --> 01:15:35.279
America who shows up again in the war between the land and the sea

1634
01:15:35.279 --> 01:15:36.720
column, is that Colin McFarlane?

1635
01:15:36.779 --> 01:15:39.239
Uh, I think that's who plays that.

1636
01:15:39.300 --> 01:15:42.180
He's really good He's much better in this than.

1637
01:15:42.300 --> 01:15:46.920
But isn't Colin McFarlane to see the character in, um, the, is he

1638
01:15:46.920 --> 01:15:49.020
the ghost guy in, um...

1639
01:15:49.079 --> 01:15:49.500
Same guy.

1640
01:15:49.739 --> 01:15:50.279
Is it the same guy?

1641
01:15:50.279 --> 01:15:51.840
Yeah, the same guy.

1642
01:15:51.899 --> 01:15:52.680
Yeah, yes, yes, yeah.

1643
01:15:52.739 --> 01:15:53.279
Yeah, yeah.

1644
01:15:53.340 --> 01:15:57.239
But the, you know, there is, again, there's a sense in which the

1645
01:15:57.239 --> 01:16:00.000
governments of the world are, and again, it's something that

1646
01:16:00.000 --> 01:16:04.079
looking back at it from, as, as Johnny was saying from 2026.

1647
01:16:04.319 --> 01:16:08.100
Like we, like we know that they cover, that they, you know, the

1648
01:16:08.100 --> 01:16:11.819
governments, you know, have, you know, their own sort of self

1649
01:16:10.680 --> 01:16:14.939
interest, economic interests, that have nothing to do with the

1650
01:16:14.939 --> 01:16:17.279
running of the actual running of government.

1651
01:16:17.279 --> 01:16:20.640
So that, you know, the hiring practises have their own sort of

1652
01:16:20.640 --> 01:16:23.399
like, it's its own functional thing so that people will slip

1653
01:16:23.399 --> 01:16:24.119
through the cracks.

1654
01:16:24.180 --> 01:16:28.920
So these sort of lapses of security are almost inevitable

1655
01:16:28.920 --> 01:16:30.000
inevitably going to happen.

1656
01:16:30.060 --> 01:16:32.399
So, I mean, this is part of it as well, is that, you know, if

1657
01:16:32.399 --> 01:16:36.420
government were, you know, uh, uh, uh, focussed on the things that

1658
01:16:36.420 --> 01:16:39.239
government should be focussed on, which is the welfare and well

1659
01:16:38.699 --> 01:16:40.380
being of the people.

1660
01:16:40.439 --> 01:16:42.720
I mean, that's, you know, when Denise has that line about the

1661
01:16:42.720 --> 01:16:47.399
league tables, like, if, you know, if the education system worked

1662
01:16:47.399 --> 01:16:48.539
like, this wouldn't be a problem.

1663
01:16:48.600 --> 01:16:53.159
Like all of these things happen, uh, uh, are cascading issues over

1664
01:16:53.159 --> 01:16:57.359
you know, decades of, of, of government bloat and and, and

1665
01:16:57.359 --> 01:17:03.000
malfeasance and, you know, ignorance. think that's cool.

1666
01:17:04.260 --> 01:17:11.340
That, um, that saying, the, the murder suicide, for God's sake, is

1667
01:17:11.340 --> 01:17:16.560
so unbelievably brutal, and it's done while Bridget is having the

1668
01:17:16.560 --> 01:17:19.439
speech about what a good man he is.

1669
01:17:19.500 --> 01:17:22.319
Like it's really, it's terribly well done.

1670
01:17:22.380 --> 01:17:23.699
Brutal.

1671
01:17:23.760 --> 01:17:26.699
And that's the thing is, like, it almost feels like when she's

1672
01:17:26.699 --> 01:17:28.079
saying talking about how good he is.

1673
01:17:28.140 --> 01:17:31.500
She means that he's like, it almost feels like she's talking about

1674
01:17:31.500 --> 01:17:34.319
him in his in his job role.

1675
01:17:34.439 --> 01:17:34.739
Yeah.

1676
01:17:34.739 --> 01:17:36.659
Like, he's he's he's a good man.

1677
01:17:36.720 --> 01:17:37.800
Like, he shows up.

1678
01:17:37.859 --> 01:17:41.939
He does his work, like, that it's almost, you know, the way that

1679
01:17:41.939 --> 01:17:42.720
she's defining good.

1680
01:17:42.779 --> 01:17:45.899
Yeah, I think that's different than the way that we that we're

1681
01:17:45.899 --> 01:17:46.260
understanding it.

1682
01:17:46.380 --> 01:17:47.340
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1683
01:17:47.460 --> 01:17:48.180
So he's so good.

1684
01:17:48.239 --> 01:17:50.399
He goes, and thanks to the prime minister for the opportunity.

1685
01:17:50.460 --> 01:17:54.119
And that's the goodness that she's referring to, but he's a, that

1686
01:17:54.119 --> 01:17:54.659
he's compliant.

1687
01:17:54.720 --> 01:17:58.020
Because when the prime minister tells him to do it, There's one

1688
01:17:58.020 --> 01:18:01.800
moment where you kind of think, like, why does he not flip the

1689
01:18:01.800 --> 01:18:02.159
desk?

1690
01:18:02.220 --> 01:18:04.560
What does he have to lose at this point, there's no one in the

1691
01:18:04.560 --> 01:18:05.220
room with him.

1692
01:18:05.340 --> 01:18:06.539
Do you know what I mean?

1693
01:18:06.600 --> 01:18:07.500
It can't get worse.

1694
01:18:07.560 --> 01:18:11.819
I guess that the prime minister says, well, we'll just take your

1695
01:18:11.819 --> 01:18:12.779
children without you.

1696
01:18:12.840 --> 01:18:14.159
Do you know what I mean?

1697
01:18:14.220 --> 01:18:17.159
Like the thread, like is kind of inescapable.

1698
01:18:17.220 --> 01:18:18.300
Yeah.

1699
01:18:18.300 --> 01:18:18.600
Yeah.

1700
01:18:18.659 --> 01:18:21.479
Yeah. sort of dread inevitability.

1701
01:18:21.539 --> 01:18:21.960
Yeah.

1702
01:18:22.020 --> 01:18:22.920
Yeah.

1703
01:18:22.979 --> 01:18:24.119
And it's so cruel.

1704
01:18:24.180 --> 01:18:25.020
It's so petty.

1705
01:18:25.079 --> 01:18:26.220
Like it's not needed.

1706
01:18:26.460 --> 01:18:27.960
You know?

1707
01:18:28.020 --> 01:18:30.539
He's just doing it because he can.

1708
01:18:30.600 --> 01:18:32.699
And he said he will in episode two.

1709
01:18:32.760 --> 01:18:34.439
That's what he's saying in episode two.

1710
01:18:34.500 --> 01:18:35.699
I'll just do this to you.

1711
01:18:35.760 --> 01:18:37.619
You're the first person to fall.