Treason on Tuesday

Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to 500 year diary, the only Doctor Who podcast that's 24% nitrousyl chloride, 21% hydrogen chloride, 19% nitrogen, 11% fluorine, 8% hydrogen cyanide, 6 acetone, 6% phos gene, and 5% love. I'm Nathan. I'm Johnny. I'm Melvin. And I'm Simon. It's Tuesday, the 7th of July, 2009. It's been just 23 hours since the 456 announced their return, and tonight about 6000000 people have tuned in to watch the preparations. So let's see how things go as we discuss Torchwood, children of Earth, day two. So, I'm gonna talk about the reprise. I'm gonna talk about the reprise. Whoever cut the reprise together did a brilliant job because all the way through the reprise. We get the children saying, we are coming, we are coming, even when there's other dialogue happening, where there's other scenes we don't see the children. And that was essentially the thing that you needed to sell to capture that 1st episode. It's so cleverly done. Yeah, so I went to a rewatch episode one, day one, we should be calling it, shouldn't we? I went to rewatch day one. I haven't watched these episodes since they 1st went out. Then I realised I hadn't watched any of Torchwood since it last went out, and that got me thinking about why I haven't chosen to revisit it, but I was glad to watch day one before day 2 because it, you know, in a 5 episode thing, you've got to kind of watch every bit of it. It's got to set it up nicely. There's not much time to waste. And day one strike me is not that far away from Doctor Who of the time. It had that kind of uh, jaunty feel about it. And my memory of children of earth was that it was really, really dark. But I think in these earlier episodes, it's like it's graduating to that place. You know, it's it's getting a little bit darker each each episode. Yeah, me too. I didn't, I haven't watched this since it was on. I haven't watched any Torchwood since it was on, and why haven't I gone back to it? I never really thought it was very good. I thought there was some good bits to it, but broadly speaking, I thought it didn't quite reach whatever potential it might have had. But I do remember when children of Earth came along that we all thought, wow, we finally got somewhere. We finally watching something, which is reaching a potential, the potential that it had. And I think, yes, it is darker. It's still got a jauntiness to it. Like there's lots of jokes, particularly with kind of, you know some basically comedy relief characters that are kind of thrown in usually with Welsh accents to add to the comedy, but it's so, um, I think one of the reasons why this is much more successful than the seasons that came before it is because there's this wonderful build of mystery of what's happening. We don't know what's going on and you're drip fed certain information. You've got a few well-placed red herrings. And so by the time you get to day 2 of it, Even though not a huge amount happens, I suppose, plot wise. You're still getting drip fed more bits of information, which really make it very, very engaging and very, very gripping. Despite John Barriman, barely being in it. But we can talk about that later. Well, this is the thing. Much like Johnny and Simon, I also have not seen Torchwood TV Torchwood in quite a while. I've listened to quite a few torchwood audios, and one of the things about Torchwood is actually not dissimilar to what you could say about some of the Star Trek series that, you know, as they go along, they build, you build the cast, you build relationships with them. And I feel like this is the season where it bears its most fruit. And, and oddly, like in, in, in the afterlife of Torchwood, it's become even more. I think torchwood, if that makes any sense, through the big finish audios, which are actually going to wrap up. I think the very last one ever comes out in a month or 2 from now. But of course, Torchwood also has a really fraught legacy because of John Barrowman. And so one of the things that I, rewatching this series that I came to terms with, or came to grips with is the extent to which children of Earth, and especially, especially day two, especially the one we're looking at today, is proof of concept for how Torchwood. I don't know if the word is exists or excels or becomes what it's supposed to be, without Barrowman. If that makes any sense, like this is proof of concept for everything Torchwood became afterwards. I mean, and accepting Miracle Day. I mean, it very definitely starts off or maybe day one ends with the destruction of torchwood in all sorts of ways. So with the destruction of the hub, which Gwen describes as a science fiction superbase in Italian one, the level of realism suddenly increases. You know, we don't have a big space with a pterodactyl in it, which was always great, but not really a great fit for something that is aiming at being adult. You know, in a way, it is just a sort of slightly dressed up version of Doctor Who. You've still got a big, weird set. You have an immortal time traveller. All of those sort of heightened performances. heightened performances. All of that. And that starts to go away here. And the other thing it does too, is it turns Jack's ability to cheat death into something much, much more horrific and terrifying than it had been before. And, like, I know he's been sort of buried for a century or something towards the end of series 2 and I only know that because I looked it up on TARDIS Wikia, not because I revisited Torchwood particularly. But this thing where he's just regenerated. I think I joked before I rewatched it that he'd regenerated from a single buttock. But he regenerates from sort of a head and an arm and a bitch. But in a way that's gruesome and terrifying. And obviously painful. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's also shot like a horror film. You know, the thing where the body bag starts inflating and Johnson and that guy are watching it over the CCTV and then they come in and then he's like a skeleton and stuff. Like it makes him horrifying and and yeah, like he screams. It's not his usual, that terrible thing that he decides to do presumably for the 1st time in parting of the ways when he does that. You know, I'm alive again, which is just dreadful and then he has to do it over and over again. Whereas this time when he wakes up, he's just screaming in pain. Like it, so even that conceit, which is a very silly kind of science fiction, high concept, conceit becomes a source of fear and horror and has kind of reinterpreted in a more kind of grown up way, I think. Yeah, I think, I mean, I said this at the time when Torchwood was going out that the problem with those 1st 2 seasons and I think that they make the mistake elsewhere is when they think doing adult, or when I say adults, I mean, you know, mature, something's supposed to be a mature drama for adults to watch. It's just nothing like it should be because it's just Doctor Who but with people being a bit nasty to each other and a bit of sex involved. Whereas it just comes across to me is like it was being written by like a sort of a spotty 14 year old who thinks that they're grown up, but they're actually not. Whereas this, you're right, it does start to feel like, yes, this is actually a drama that's designed for someone of my age to watch. Well, you said, Simon, at the very start that not a lot happens in episode one, but what does happen, and Nathan, you were pointing it out during the reprise, is the children all talking in unison and one of the things that is for sure adult or mature about torturewood children of earth, is that the stakes and what's going on is it's real in a way that it never has been before. That the children are under, like the children of Earth, as it were, are under threat, are are in peril. or being used, yes yeah. Yeah, and so that's the thing is, like, this is something that Doctor Who sort of can't do and hasn't done, like, that there's something that there's something really horrible about reaching into, like, literally what, uh, Mrs. Frobisher says, I think, here in episode two. This is in my home. These are my children. Like, that is what is real. That is that is mature science fiction plotting. I think that's it. And I think the real adult concern here is children, right? And like when we were watching this as young people, you know, when we were watching this when we were much younger, um, it's hard to get. So I talked about adults when we were watching it now. We were, but we were younger. Yes, but we were still quite old. But in any case, shut up. In any case, I said this last week that there are Doctor Who fans who don't like seeing children in Doctor Who. But one of the reasons that I do like it. who you're talking about. See also space babies. I do like it is because having children is a particular adult concern. And I said this last week, I have never, I don't have children. I have never had to look after a child or been responsible for a child. I've never loved a child, like in the way that a parent loves their children. I've never had that experience. And I think that children of earth hits harder for people who have is my understanding of it as well. That the real adult concern here isn't sex, gas, or yeah, picking people up at nightclubs and stuff. It's being apparent. It's being responsible for children and worried about children. That's a proper adult concern. And so this is, I think, for that reason, more adult than Torchwood has been. I think the reason people don't like children, Doctor Who, is when the children are lead characters as opposed to ancillary characters. And they're not characters. They're not characters here. They're just, you know... I think that you're right. The, the, the threat to the children is something which makes this feel more, um, adds weight to it. So it does make you feel like this is more of an adult drama that you're watching. But I think there's a couple of other things which make this just better drama than the monster of the week format that Torchwood had been for the last couple of years. And there's, it's that the 2 main threats. One that the government is is conspiring against tortured, and 2 that the 456 are coming, both feel inevitable and it makes you feel powerless. And they're very, they're very, in a funny kind of way, they're very adult things to be frightened of. You're meant to be in control of your world. And yet here are 2 things. They're the 2 main potlines in day two. That you feel trapped in, you feel powerless in. You can't do anything about this. And so that's, for me, what makes it more, say, a more satisfying piece of drama than, say, cyberwoman. What a fascinating example. It's also it's this interesting thing about tortured about how quickly it develops over 4 seasons. So it goes from BBC 3 to BBC 2. This is its 1st on BBC One. It changes format in a way that Doctor Who has never changed format until maybe flux. You know, it, it, it adopts a form which is actually much closer to what we watch on streaming services now. It feels, you know, the direction feels of its time, the design feels of its time, the performance feels full time. Its format feels like something you might watch on Netflix. And then it moves to the US. Again, something Doctor Who never did. And it burns out so quickly that it's hard actually to watch Torchwood and not think where in its trajectory is it. Because it's, it's gone from, it's gone from conception to burn out over 4 seasons so quickly. This is the most successful part of Torture, I think. My understanding is that stars had wanted to do maybe 2 more seasons after Miracle Day, and that the reason it didn't happen is that Russell had to go back to the UK to look after his husband who was... But they had both moved over like Julian Russell. Oh, wow. they were shooting it over there. So I don't think Miracle Day was a success. I think the season was too long. It had some great moments in it. There's one particularly good episode or 2 particularly good episodes. There's one incredible moment that I'll never forget at the end of the categories of life, which is just an astounding, like a just a devastating moment that I think surpasses what happens at the end of episode 4 here. So there are good things in it, but it's too long and too kind of formless and I was losing patience by the end of it, I think. Before we leave off children, though, like, yes, the children are under threat is one of the storylines, and you were saying, Nathan like, never having, uh, had a child either, hashtag child free, uh there's there's more happening here. Then, and again, we were talking about when we watched this when we were younger. Well, I mean, we've gone through quite a bit in the last 20, almost 20 years or, you know, 15 to 16 years since, since children of Earth, and a lot of it having to do with children. Like there are other things in this episode that are brought out throughout children of Earth. Like you hear Johnny, uh, Ianto's, I can't remember Ianto's sister's name, uh, but her Rhiannon. But so Rhiannon's husband, Johnny, when he gets the lads to go shake the police car so that she can escape to get onto his computer. When they're shaking the car, they're calling the guys in the car pedos. Yeah. And so, I mean, this is a lot of what happens in children of Earth that regards children also, they do mention in episode 3 when they're trying to figure out who, you know, a portion which children are going, is, Can we get people from refugee camps? So, I mean, there, there, there's so much to do with children's welfare that has nothing to do with whether or not we're a parent but whether we can, you know, connect to the helplessness of children in, in, in underprivileged, uh, uh, disparate, uh diasporic backgrounds. Like there's a lot to do with children that is bubbling under the surface here that has nothing to do with alien invasions. So I think that that is also part of the depth of this of this as a drama. It was impossible, I think, to watch the later episodes where soldiers are coming in to take people's children away in episode five. Uh, we, uh, like I'm watching Starfleet Academy and the original sin of Starfleet Academy is where Holly Hunter's character separates the main character from his mother, you know, in the 1st episode. And that's like a signature thing in like both Trump era, you know people losing contact with their parents and in particular. So, so, so that's where we're going to go with this. There is the politics of it's the poor people's children that we're going to be feeding to the 452 and no one around this table is going to be affected. You know, they explicitly say that. Like, that's really quite, quite brutal, like unbelievably brutal. And so this is free, I think, to be more political and more angry than Doctor Who ever has to be. You know, aliens of London is cross and angry. I think, you know, season three. master thing. The tone is try today, by comparison. Well, yeah, yeah, yeah. That makes it a gag rather than a comment, a proper comment. Oh, no, no. I think there's something about doing that in a children's program. Do you know what I mean? Like the family, please. Yeah, yeah, family show. But like doing angry politics in a family show. You know, like... Again, we talked about how, how, how, there's only so much you can you can sort of take it. Look, I think that, and that's one of the things that I think makes this show feel more like it is a grown-up show is what I found as well is all the kind of the workings of the politics in the, well, the government in the, I mean, Peter Capaldi's office. You know, it's all cramped. There's not enough space for all the people who are working there. There's constant phone calls going in and out. people sort of rushing around. And for me, that all feels much better than what we get with War Between, for instance, which is all kind of this very heightened sort of somewhat ridiculous way that everything seems to be working. I think it's let down by the fact that the Prime Minister is a bit too Machiavelli, and I think it would have been more interesting if when Capaldi approaches him to say what's happening in the 1st sequence, which is likely in the 1st episode. The Prime Minister actually knows absolutely nothing about it. It's, and that would be kind of like a deep state thing. Like, this is the sort of thing that's been going on for 40 odd years or whatever it's supposed to have been at the time. And, you know, you've actually been approving this, but you don't know you have, and that would have actually been a much more interesting take, I think. And the only other thing that doesn't work for me there is the fact that the Prime Minister doesn't seem to have any staff of his own, which is... They're outside, but they don't even a company in. That is actually an odd moment in it that's kind of stuck out for me where Capaldi goes kind of kind of forelock tugging to the Prime Minister and say, thank you for putting me in this position. Thank you for doing that. The Primaster would not have done it with me, but... I don't think... He didn't strike me as a way that colleagues would talk to each other. And also, it didn't strike me. Capaldi is fantastic. best thing in these episodes. and he's adding so much and so many different nuances to everything that he's doing. But gratefulness for being put in the position was not one of those things I thought he was expressing through the rest of the episode. What comes out of that forelock tugging, though, is that the Prime Minister lays his cards on the table in episode two, which makes what happens for the rest of the series easier to understand from a viewer's point of view, because he's like, you're, you know, he Capelli says, I'm basically a middleman. Thank you for giving me the responsibilities. like, I put you on the front line. The front line is the 1st to fall. Like, he says it. He says it out loud. And so both of the major sort of plot resolution moments in episode 5 are anticipated in episode one and two. So you get Alice telling Jack that he's dangerous and that he's not permitted to experiment on Stephen, and this is why she has told him to stay away. And then you get the prime minister saying, you are here to be sacrificed so that I don't suffer. And like he makes that clear. And so there's a level of unreality around the scene with the Prime Minister, who I think is great, by the way. think the performance is good. I just think of the characterisation. I think Russell obviously hates the Prime Minister of kills him in every season. Yeah, he hates but also. But basically, obviously, he obviously has very little regard for any political leader, of any stripe, of any anything. He thinks they're all corrupt factors, which is which is okay. He can believe that, but I think if you're trying to present a what is supposed to be an adult drama, that's where it leans into comic book. Whereas the way Capaldi is doing it. He's doing it in a way of like, and the older assistant whose name escapes me. Bridget. Yeah. Oh, that's right, with the capital H password. They all kind of hate what they're doing. But they need to do it and it's that kind of internal conflict which is so much more interesting than watching the way the Prime Minister is betrayed. Can I just say, but that moment? That's the only moment for me where this episode doesn't work. It's actually a really good story, I think, by John Faye. And the fact that it is a call, a call forward to things which are going to happen, it's a bit inelegant. That's really not what happens in the rest of this episode. Like, it starts with, it starts with them separated. It ends with them together. You go through both plot strands. You don't really feel the loss of Barriman throughout the whole thing. There's plot everywhere. In fact, it reminded me, it reminded me of Terry Nations writing incident after incident after incident, just to keep him watching the whole way through. Like, I think someone said not much happened in day one. Actually, I think in a 5 episode arc like this, roughly 20% of the plot happens in each episode, and I think that there's so much going on. Yeah. So I just wanted to say that just because I pulled out that one little dud moment, I just wanted to redress that by going, actually I think the rest of it's brilliant. No, but that's why I kind of wanted to reinforce that East because I think it's, it's, I think, in some respects, it's Russell showing his blind spot, his, his, his own. It's a blind spot of his that that means that for me, I'm suddenly taken out of, oh, this is actually really good. And now suddenly it's just like, you know, some of the other crap he does. Whereas the, it was actually me who said that there wasn't much that happened and I didn't mean episode one. If I said it, I meant episode two, day two, not a lot happens. And when I say not a lot, I don't mean there's not a lot of incident. I just mean that there's not as much development, movement of the plot, and I didn't mean that as a negative. I was just, it was an observation that, that it continues. No, no, I know what you mean because actually the 3 main characters are kept away from the main action and that's kind of the that's kind of the whole point of episode two, isn't it? They're deliberately taken out of making things happen so that other things can happen and then they can kind of return to it. Because we're building a tank for the rills to arrive. Yes, yes. A tank which for some reason, when they get the instructions, they have no idea what it is, then they're building and then it ends up being a glass tank that they have to put some gas into. So that was a, that could have been worked a little bit better. I think there must be some, there is some classic golden era science fiction thing where I think instructions get sent to for building something. Yes, it's contact. It's Carl Sagan's contact. Yes, yes. So, and look, I'm not saying he stole it. It is Doctor Who, though. Exactly. It's whether it's stolen or a prestige or he did it without realising where he'd seen that idea before. doesn't matter. mean these things happen all the time. But in contact, the difference is that you, yeah, they're building this thing and you really do. They have no idea how this even works. But they, but when they put tabet into slot B, it all magically does this thing which sends JD Foster off to the other end of the universe, whatever, yes, brilliant. Have you not seen it? Oh, it's oh my gosh. It's brilliant, brilliant. But the great thing is, they don't know how it works, whereas in this building, this tank, it's like, well, I think you could have worked out from the blueprints what this was going to be, you know. And the other major difference between contact and this is that you know, we've been talking about adult drama and RTD. For me, this is both RTD at his bleakest and most nihilistic. You know, from episode one to episode five. This is, this is actually sort of more than what I assumed RTD 2 was going to be like. And I was a little bit surprised that it wasn't. Neither here nor there, both here and there is that I hoped, yeah. Um, and and again, like maybe this was in the back of my mind, but it's been 15 plus years since I've seen this. Well, probably turned left is the start of Russell C. Davies' interest in apocalyptic scenario. So it's kind of, it's RTD noir or something, but you pick it up and it goes to years and years and it goes to go through all of those sort of things. And I think that actually, actually, I think it's a well he returns to a little too often, to be honest. I do think he is very bleak and cynical and even his early stuff the stuff like queer as folk with the, you know, the death of Phil. Um, and uh, and cucumber. And cucumber, far out cucumber episode six. is also extremely cool. Yeah. Yeah. So he is very bleak, and in fact, you know, his Doctor Who is surprisingly not that. And the moments, like in midnight, sort of in aliens of London certainly in turn left, which I think is as dark as he allows himself to go in the parent show, like he's aware that this is a family show for kids, and so that's not kind of what it's about. But yeah. And I think he course corrected an RTD too, because I think it's much more hopeful and optimistic, which is one thing, like, I don't know that he knows how to do hopeful and optimistic. But it's also fair to say that day 2 actually gives no indication of how bleak it's going to become. And I was sort of grateful for that watching and thinking, oh, good this is actually, we're not quite there at the really harrowing bits yet, you know. In fact, I think the end where Yanto rocks up with that big truck and like just pulls the cell out of the wall and then throws it off and clips. Like, it's a bit unfair. Yeah, I mean, it's a plot. Yeah, that's exactly it. a great drilling, fun moment. And if it doesn't work, look, that's fine. I mean, you know, Barrowman's going to be burned to a crisp by the by the cement, presumably. Like we're not doing sort of full throated realism here at this point. And certainly there's a real joy in like a big car chase where we explode, like a cement mixer in their park. A cart chase. But actually, that's really good because they actually managed to hide the fact that they've pulled out this great big concrete block, which is obviously massively heavy onto this piece of serious earth movie, which at best would go at 20 K's per hour. I was waiting for it for it to fall off the cliff. for the whole thing, you just got to lay a balance. But it's interesting that because of the way it shot and the way they managed to build, you know, the time it takes for the others to get to their vehicles and so on like that and they can set up the explosion of the cement mixer. It actually works whereas so often these things the way they're shot and covered. you're left, you know, you're left sort of like they're slowly getting away. I've talked before about the long tradition of Doctor Who monsters that you can briskly walk away. But I mean, look, well, that's the, I mean, the fact that he knows which cell to pull him out of is a bit nonsense. And the fact that it's exactly when, you know, the others are about to be shown. yeah I'll buy it. pay that. And that's the other half of what I was going to say is that not only is this RTD at his most bleak and nihilistic, but he also this is when I was saying earlier that this is sort of the most torchwood torchwood has been, is that when you do separate them one of the other things that RTD has always been great at. And from Rose, I mean, for the Doctor Who, from his for his Doctor Who sort of history, is the sort of like, how does all this crazy stuff affect regular people? Because I think Rhiannon, Rhiannon and Johnny are 2 of the best characters in this story. I mean, in the entire series. Like all the people that he, like, that the team learns to depend on, Lois Abiba as well, you know, who's sort of like, 1st day on the job, but she's a personal assistant. So you have this sort of the donness of her being really good at her job and fitting in perfectly into this bizarre happenstance. But again, it's the way that these things touch the lives of regular people. And I think it's that the regular people, really, that's one of the things that makes this series sing for me is that, again, what is hopeful. What isn't bleak, what isn't nihilistic, is that, you know, these people who live in council estates, the people who are forgotten about, the people whose children are the lowest 10% are the people who are generative, the people who are growing their communities the people who are nurturing families. Like there's something really, really hopeful about that. One of the best sequences is, oh, I should say, there are so many good sequences. So a great sequence is when Gwen rushes in to risk to say, you've got to get up, you've got to go, you know, they're after me therefore, they're going to be after you. And it's a side of the show. We haven't had that opportunity to do anything like that before, as well as Yantos family being raided in the middle of the night and all that sort of stuff. It helps to build the sense that this is a real world. And these people are affected. And I love that those other characters are now brought into the plot to actually contribute to it. And you're right with Lois acting as Capaldi's assistant. It's that I'm the new person, I'm seeing this, and it's a great audience surrogate moment where you can feel that, yes, I'd be doing that. If I had arrived there and I was thinking, I'd be checking, like you know, logging into what's a face's computer, I'd be ringing you know, Gwen, I'd been meeting Gwen in the cafe and and giving her all this information in 2nd of this meeting. That's exactly you want that kind of character because she does it so well. She's amazingly great. And like it's her investigation in episode one that tells us what the blank page is all about and what's going on. It's the thing that raises the big question, which is who are these 3 randos who are on the list with Captain Jack. That's an important question that's there in play inside and that you know, isn't resolved until a little bit later, but that's hugely important. I want to say that Johnny's great moment. when Johnny's 1st introduced, you know, he calls, um, yeah, into a big queer. No, no, no, no, no. You've got a bender. But there's that moment where Rhiannon says, what's happening with Yanto, how come he's brought this to our house? And Johnny gently rebukes her and says, we're the only family that he's got left. And it's so good for someone who is such a big kind of dipshit like earlier on. Oh, no, he said that... No, no. Yeah, yeah, he does. He does. But you know what I mean? Like he's like a big buffy guy. Yes, yeah. I didn't need that shot of him naked on the bed there. There's never any sense that there's anything but love for Yanto in that house. And I think that the scenes on the council estate are my favourite in day one and day 2 were by far away my favourite. And it's something, they even shoot it a bit differently with some steady cams to make it feel a bit more edgy, but it's also a sense that Yanto, someone's going to have to correct me on Yanto's history because I can't remember any of it, but he dresses in a 3 piece suit, but he comes from this world. You know, he comes from this world. So there's a sense of there's a sense that he's left something behind in order to get what he's what he's got. Um, I think, though, that, so for me, I absolutely agree, but that's where the, that's where the social realism is trying to be added in here. I think Lois is great too, but tell you what, she's a terrible hire. They should never have hired that one. I'm gonna stay. First day, she's stealing passwords. She's looking up... No, no, she's given the password. And it's written down and spaced it to your computer. And no one notices she keeps using it. You could not get away with that in the modern workplace. No, that's the government. That's the government that sucks. He wasn't meant to use that password to take... But no one notices. There's a moment that the lowest spotline for me is just on that edge of things which pull you out of the story. Yeah, it's a terrific performance, but there's a moment going, this is your 1st day. This is your 2nd day. Would you actually be doing these? She does at least hang around tonight. She does say that. And like when Jack rings are on day one and she goes, oh, it's my 1st day. He goes, wow, you know, hell of a 1st day. Like, so they do kind of play with that. But yeah, she's saying it's day 2 and I'm committing treason. That, to me, is really one of the most disappointing things about the way that the series ends is that they keep, they leave her in the cell. And I guess that's to keep her from being complicit in what happens. Because, I mean, she could do the computer stuff, but like, yes. So, I mean, I get I get that. But that's that I just like, I wanted her involved in some way in the end. But it's interesting, Johnny, in the way, you're just saying, you know, it's only day 2 and you're committing treason and stuff which I know they hang a lantern and landing on. But at the same time, that's that sort of heightened accelerated nature of drama. And I often try and think of it this way is that, I mean, maybe you did notice it, but if it's happening and you don't notice it until afterwards and you go, oh, that's a bit funny that she was only there a day and she's already doing all this stuff. It's fine because it's managed to be kind of become part of a story and hidden in such a way, hidden in plain view, if you like that you run with it. And other times they can do exactly the same kind of thing and you're just sitting there the entire time once you get going. Oh, this is just ridiculous. It's like you've been there one day. I think the other option, would it, would for it to have been an old dishevelled disgruntled employee who is seeking revenge against Bridget or something and that would have made more sense but... The thing about torture it is that you need people who look like they might be the next members of the tour. Oh, yes, yes. And so they need to be sort of young and attractive and look like they're about to run away and join the Torchwood Circus, right? Is this person the next companion kind of thing. Although, I have to say, it's like Torchwood, can you spell that? I mean how the hell do you think it's spelled? W-O-U-I. I need to get a torch. Torchwood. I did get a real thrill though. A real, like, buzz up the back of my neck when Gwen asks her at the, um, at the, at the coffee shop. when this is over and you need a job, call me. Like, there's such a, there was like an absolute, like, thrill that went up the back of my neck when she said that because there's like, you could feel that she invests in people. Except, you know, the last person that they recruited as a doctor and then the previous doctor and then the previous computer operator. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's not a great job. That's not focussed too much on that. But that's one of the things, that's one of the things about series 3 itself. Like, again, and we've been talking about the way that the series is developing, for me, when I got to the end of season of the end of the season, because I just went ahead and watched the whole thing. I just got really sucked into it again, is that, you know, in a different reality, you sort of picture a torchwood series 4 that goes from high stakes of like the children of Earth are going to be taken back to sort of like sort of smaller stakes in Cardiff with Rhiannon and Johnny and, you know, the people on, like to involve, like to go smaller and and more sort of like into the into the community. Like, that feels like it would have been a, a, a, like a, like a winning, it felt like a winning formula to me, and it really is like made me sad at the end to know that it went in a completely different direction. I've got to say, I don't... I really like the three-person Torchwood team. I don't miss the other two. I think actually there were too many of them. And even in this episode where we take Barrowman out for most of the episode. It's perfectly serviceable to just have that small number of characters and we get to know them. I think they're the most likeable of the of the torchwood lineups too, and that helps a lot. But that also, it's because we're, we've got Reese and um, Yanto's sister, whose name we can, Rihanna, and and Lois, um, basically being effectively de facto, additional members of Torchwood, what would argue. I mean, that's right. We've got so we've got something that's literally the length of half a torchwood season. normally because it's 5 hours long and we have a massive regular cast. It's just that only 3 of them are in torchwood. And, you know, because we've got Alice, because we've got Bridget we've got all of these people who appear, Johnson, people who appear every episode and are hugely important to it, but aren't part of Torchwood. And that's the other thing about this that makes it. So good, is that you have this massive regular car. Yeah. And so you can do things that you can sideline torchwood for an episode while other stuff goes on. It's interesting with talking about, you know, not missing those other cast members and I call them, you know, it's obviously Mr Guppy and Titikaka. But both of them, it's not the fact that we didn't like this characters because I did like those characters. It's the fact that it's interesting that they set up torchwood in the way that you'd sent up like a US drama or a network drama which has 26 episodes. The reason you have that ensemble of characters is so that you can have, you know, in your mystery of the week, you have different characters get different focus, which means you can shoot several episodes at the sort of at the same time and da da da. Whereas they still kind of use that format, even though they're only doing, you know, 10 episodes or 13 or whatever. While we're talking about the extended cast, I've got to mention Johnson, the... She's the 18 Johnson, who walks around with a look on her face like she's just trodden in something horrible and she never takes that look off her face. She's consistently like that. She should win a BAFTA for consistently. I've stepped in something awful acting. Do you know what? In episode three, there's one moment where she's there with Alice and she says something like, oh, goodness, you can't tell Stephen that Jack is his grandfather. Can you? And just for a moment, she connects with Alice in a way and connects over, like how to like Alice and her relationship with her child. And she actually softens. And for the rest of the show, you know, she ends up on our side. You know, she does end up on our side, even though she's like super murderous and stuff. I really, I like her a great deal. Like, I think she's really good. Yes, she's great. The other character mentioned is Decker. Decker. Yep. Or as I like to call him, evil Leo McGarry. Evil Leo McGarry. He has such a He sort of does that. But he's also sort of like, you know, the sort of like Leo in the West Wing, sort of the chief of staff who, like, gets things done like, or is the guy who has to kick butt to get things done. It feels like Decker is playing that same role. But yes, no, we got to talk about both of these. So Decker is the guy who's building the thing. Yes. So the interesting thing that I find, firstly, I don't actually like Johnson. At this point, I haven't yet watched the rest of it. So I'm up to this point. So the last I cannot, and I cannot remember exactly how it unfolds although I have a pretty good idea. I don't really like Johnson's character at this point. that that's the way she develops. Deck is interesting because for me, in that kind of red herring style, I'm wondering at this point where the decker is actually an alien. Because the way the looks on his face and the way he's doing things. And obviously he knows more than he's saying and he knows that Capaldi knows more than he's saying in that last segment in this episode with a tank and it's filling out. That's very odd at the end where he approaches... that's what I'm wanting. That's all for me as a viewer feeding into, you know, he's not one of us sort of thing, as I say, it's quite fast, especially with the look on his face the whole time. not quite real. And that's one of the things is that he is a sort of parallel character to Frobisher. Not only are they, you know, in these scenes together, but they're both sort of like, middlemen, keep your nose down, do your work career civil servants. It's just that they have almost completely different approaches to it. And going back to Johnson also, it, it, you know, and maybe we can talk about this at some point, but it's something that kept coming up in my head is the way that, uh, because Johnson is such a hard ass and because she's a woman and an action woman, uh, much like Eve Miles, uh, uh, Gwen Cooper, that there are, that this, that this entire series, uh, really sets up sort of, I don't want to say strange because it's not strange, but it's, uh, atypical approaches to what, uh, defin- defining masculinity and and femininity uh But that's something we can we can go on at a later time. I have to say that the really big clear difference between Decca and Frobisher is that one has children and the other one doesn't and there's that whole conversation around that. And he says something dismissively about how he was always too busy with work to have children. But I think you can do both. Apparently. think you can. And we all know from experience. I think the scary thing about Decker is that he seems to be quietly looking forward to the 456 arriving and he where nobody everyone else is going, yeah, this is doom laden. He's kind of going, yeah, I'm up for the chaos, which is about to ensue. And he's he's a terrific actor. I think he's that's Ian Gelder. He is in. Can you hear me? The Jodie Whittaker episode. He's the one who flies fingers around other people, I think. Yeah, yeah. And actually comparing those 2 performances is interesting because where in this where he's given something really subtle and really um, really sort of pernicious to do. He's just terrific at it. And, um, that moment at the end of the episode where he, he approaches the cage, not the cage, the tank. He coaches the tank to breathe on it, is shows a sort of, um, uh synchronicity with the with the monsters, which is, I can see Simon Howe watching it, you'd think, he's the monster's man on the inside. Yes, yeah. Is it that he relishes the some kind of comeuppance for what happened before? In the 60s? Yeah, it's not, it isn't, it isn't very clearly that. I think. I think, like, there is something, because that mystery, it does get brought up at the very end, when it's just him and Bridget and Frobisher, like, it's very clear that something has gone on that we don't know about, that, and, and, you know, you have to be kind of, the television watching guy, to kind of know these 3 names are people that we've never seen before, and that means that this intertorch would thing. That's something that Jack has done in his past that's not tortured related is important here. And that thing enables us to go for 2 full episodes without getting bored for a 2nd. even though the aliens haven't turned up. We've had 2 hours. The aliens aren't here yet. I would gently suggest that it's especially because the aliens haven't turned. Yeah, yeah. Because I think if the aliens turn up too early, that's when the rest of it just drags because you've shot your load, I believe, is the expression. We do have the strangeness, though, not only of the children being used as sort of puppets or mouthpieces of the 456, but also, and we haven't talked about him yet either. Um, and I can't remember the name of the character. The actor's name is Paul Copley. Um, the guy who is in the, uh, the care home. Uh, who was... Clem. Clem. Yes, yes, that's right. Uh, who was a fantastic character actor. also. I know him mostly from the, he played a one of the crew on the hornblower series with Joan Griffith in the late 90s. So I know him mostly from that, but also I think he was in Call the Midwife, whatever, Candleford, all the period dramas. But he's a great, he's a terrific character actor. But there, you also get a sort of alienness from him, which, like the children isn't specifically just about children being kidnapped by aliens, you know, it's through that character that we're also seeing like, you know, neglect of the elderly, you know mental health issues, like, is this something like with Ian Gelder's character? Is he just weird? Is he an alien, you know, plant? Like, it's, you can ask the same questions about, about that character, about the Clem character? I mean, his ability to smell the aliens coming is never explained or to smell Gwen's pregnancy. Yeah, yeah. And again, I haven't seen the rest of it for 17 years or however long it's been. But we're supposed to assume that he was the boy that seems to have been left behind on the bus. And am I right in thinking it wasn't him? No, it was him. So we I couldn't remember whether it was going to be Capaldi that is actually the boy that's been left behind. So Capaldi doesn't seem quite old enough for this. Like Dekker does. If that happened in 65, which is... 33 years. 43 years. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That elusive decade. That's what I'm trying to do, Matt, swallow the podcast. No, it's just that, remember, when you, when you, when you move time from the 20th, the 21st century, generally the 1990s, all the naughts disappeared. We forget about it. Because we can't possibly be that whole. And also it's the 21st century, so everything changed. Exactly. Yeah. So he's not quite old enough, maybe Decker is, but you know, you'd have to squint and kind of, you know, he's probably... supposed to be 8 years old. So 43 years, 51. That's about right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. How old's Frobisher and how old are they? It could be early 50s. 50s? Well, easy. But don't they have to have been involved in the cover-up in 1965? Oh, no, to be involved in the cover-up. No, no, no. I just meant in terms of being like on that bus or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, he's the right age for the bus. He's in his mid-50s or something. He's probably younger than both of us, Simon, actually. Shut up. But it's also just it's also just access, like Lois, like how she is discovering all these things. We can assume that that's one of the things that Decker is taking relish in is that he's just had, he's, he's been in the, he's been in the archives, like all his career. Like, he knows secrets and like, you know, there's that when he's when they're having that conversation about the thing, he's like you know, he lists off a number of things it could be. He's like, it could be, you know, an ambassadorial suite. It could be a throne, a throne. It could be a slaughterhouse. Yeah. So it's, I think he's just like, I think he's one of these characters, one of these characters who just likes chaos and like wants, wants something different than normal everyday stuff. And even though I watched the whole thing last weekend. When I was rewatching episode 2 this morning, I thought it ended with we are coming back tomorrow. Like I thought it ended with tomorrow as the revelation, just like coming back was the revelation at the end of episode one, but instead it does end with that very, very strange scene of Decca looking at the thing, which is pretty amazing. Can we talk about Eve Miles? I just think she is spectacular. sensational. Yeah. Very, very committed and convincing at all times. I love when they're trying to get Barrowman out of the, the, the hold the cell and, you know, restart saying, you know, she's married and pregnant. I can't do a watch accent. But in the way, she just turns around with this kind of zipper. It is just brilliant. Gosh, I wish I had that control to people. I really like the scene when they're in the when they're in the truck. The potato truck. The potato truck. It's so charming. Well, the moment the fact that she doesn't have to say that she's pregnant, she does, but she doesn't say it. She doesn't say I'm pregnant. Sorry, she doesn't actually, she doesn't say I'm pregnant. She just says, you know, when you have to make a big announcement that's one of those things in your head. And then he goes, 0 my god, that's fantastic news. Yeah, so that's because interesting they mentioned the nursery in the 1st episode. So it's lovely. That actually shows the kind of a bit of a delicate writing style which I think Russell throws away later on. Well, this isn't Russell, remember? This is John Fay. Okay, but the planning, he's show running it, nevertheless, and kind of a, it just shows a lightness of touch, which I think is missing from his work. I also think if it's a boy named it Edward after the potato potato. I don't know how I feel about that character sniffing out Wen's pregnancy in day one, but it does at least make a change from characters running out of the room to vomit and then you realise later on that they're pregnant. So it is, but we must talk about, we must talk about having a, um a newly pregnant woman lie on a box of potatoes on the 3 hour drive from, from Cardiff to London. Yeah. She's pregnant. She's not sick. I mean, we should be in one piece, but I mean, I mean, actually, we see her on one piece making a phone call immediately afterwards seeming to have no after effects at all. Neither of them from that. What? I mean, come on. I've never lied. To be fair disclosure. I never actually laid down stomach 1st on a box of potatoes, but I don't think it's going to be the most comfortable journey. I think perhaps they might have felt good. Well, they say it's not comfortable at least. I mean, I think that obviously in a show that's about children and one of the things that it is about, and particularly towards the end, is what sort of world have we left for our children to grow up in and concerns around that. And suddenly she has a stake in that, just all of a sudden, the reason that she's pregnant for this episode is because it now matters to her in a much more urgent way what the world that she leaves behind is going to be like and is it a world in which we sacrifice 10% of the world's children in order to keep going. Do you know what I mean? Like what sort of world are we in? And I said last time that even though Jack has a grandchild because he's immortal, he doesn't feel that concern because he's going to be around in that world. He's not being replaced by Stephen at any point. He'll grow up and he'll he'll watch Stephen die. He'll bear it where he does, but sooner than he might have expected. But even in the normal course of affairs, he would he would bury Stephen the way that he buried Stephen's grandmother, you know. So all of that stuff about all that stuff about having a steak in the future. Like having children of your own doesn't just change the relationship that you have with children, but it changes how you feel about the future, I think. And so, yeah, you know, definitely giving that to Gwen in this episode. And, you know, it's a great effect later on, I think, in episode five, where she contemplates aborting the child because of this is the world that we've got for the child to grow up in. Um, you know, like I think that's, that adds, adds to the stakes, I think. But yeah, no, Gwen is a, she's such a sensational character. She's such a sensational. I mean, she's, she's, she is basically the hero of, of this series of torchwood. Like there's no, there's no doubt that she's the star. So so last week we actually said that Andy Pryor was the hero of this series. Oh, as the casting, yeah. So, yeah, there's so many... Yeah, like I think Alice is stunning. Rhiannon is stunning. Yep, you know, Capaldi, um, um, Cush Jumbo. Like... They're just like incredible. And that's so refreshing that everyone is good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And again, it shows you that trajectory that Torchwood was on. Like it really didn't, it could attract that cast in that level of talent by the time it got to BBC one in its 3rd year. I mean, it's one of the reasons why I think Barrowman's an idiot is because he was complaining and like he was complaining when this came out, that we're being punished by getting an order of 5 episodes and it's kind of like this is 5 episodes on BBC One. They're each an hour long. It's going to be the focus of TV for that week. Yeah, so it was on every night every night. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which, again, is one of the things that makes it so kind of propulsive. And, you know, it's wild. Like those 80s miniseries, you know, like V. Like V. Yes, exactly. The thorn bird. Especially for when it when it came out because it was it was supposedly in a sort of a dead zone because it dropped in the middle of the summer, but that only meant that it was the only thing on. The only new thing on, even better. Yeah, and so, and so, you know, that's why Melvin and I had to watch the whole thing one after the other because it's designed to be consumed in that way. And, you know, the fact that we wait 2 hours for the aliens to arrive doesn't matter because it's really they arrive on Wednesday. But I guess that's the thing. It goes back to what you were saying, John, earlier, about it being like a Netflix drama, a modern Netflix drama. is. It's built like that. It's built to binge. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, the whole thing would have dropped, would drop in one hit and you'd sit down and you'd watch it in one weekend. I unfortunately did not have the luxury of time over the past week. Yeah, not to do that. But it's interesting to looking at, I mean, because I don't watch 21st century Doctor Who very often, if at all, you know, it's not my comfort, go to food. Nor do I go back and happen to see a television drama from 2009 very often. And what's fascinating, I found about it is, you know, in the past 17 years, how styles and things have changed and the way things are made. I mean, I don't know this would this have been high definition or was it still standard? So this is my definition. Okay, so Doctor Who and Torch would both go to HD. Okay, because the gapier specials are HD. Yeah. So, but of course now things are 4K. And so it's more country. But also the way things are made now in terms of production design is much more muted in colouring. There is so much more bright stuff. you know, there's people wearing bright coloured t-shirts. The curtains are bright. There's blue tinted black backgrounds on walls and so on. It is so much more colourful than the way TV and film is made now. I mean, it's a fashion thing. It's a change of taste, but, you know, it's just interesting to see the change. I'm glad you said that because I thought it was my television. I thought, oh, why is the graph so green? Why simply? But they actually overthought... These are much more muted now in their in their grading, you know. Just think about Doctor Who at the time. Like Russell's Doctor Who is very, very brightly coloured, very very saturated. And I remember something on the where there's some handheld stuff in the next doctor and Russell is talking about how he spoke to the director and said, actually, this is not what we do in Doctor Who. That's more of a torch would look, but I mean now, 16 years later I think we said last week that this just looks like it was shot on a videotape, really, because it is that sort of very immediate bright coloured. It's not muted the way that film is muted. It really does look very television-y. Well, yes, because in 2009, there is still a division between a more of a division between television. Whereas now the streaming services have blurred, completely blurred that and television, any television is made for completely filmically now. You can barely tell a difference. Well, that's right. And TV hardware, too. TV cover, exactly. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And our size of our screens and everything. Exactly right. Well, remember, we'd have still, I mean, we probably would have watched this on still a cathode ray tube. It would have been a wide screen television, but it was still a CRT, I think, that I had. And even then you were watching, we may have been watching it not necessarily from a broadcast copy. I wouldn't want to say how I watched it back in 2009, but it wouldn't have been the best clarity either. And it's fascinating how just the way we can see, even the way we consume things. Like people, I mean, the streaming services like I view and iPlayer, they'd started by then, but they weren't nearly as big as they are now. Like you just don't watch anything live to wear. you know, as it's broadcast anymore. No. Yeah. And that and that's another thing. Like, this is such a pivot, a pivot point. like 2009 because it's the end of, it's the year of specials in Doctor Who. Um, uh, uh, you can still see the phones they're using are like barely above flip phone. like we're not into smartphones. There's a camera, but that's it, yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, but again, like there's there's something about this and where it sits in in time, as it were, that makes it, you know not only forward thinking in terms of like the format of the TV show, being precient for the kind of television that we've consumed over the last 10 years, especially the last five, 8 years even more, especially, but like the the topicality of stuff. Like thinking again about it really. I mean, it hit me hard, seeing them take those, take, like the army taking children, like that was. I mean, it's scary, and then listen, what you were saying earlier about Gwen saying, what kind of, what kind of world, you know would you want to raise a child in a world like this? I mean, think about what the last 17 years have wrought. Like, when has a point, when has a point? Like, it's a it's a nasty world. It's a horrible world, but also like the, again, just like the government, what we were talking about earlier, being willing to like spin the transactionality of lives into, you know, thinking of children as units. Like, there's just something really monstrous about what's going on here that has nothing to do with aliens. And I just think that there's something, again, like, just, that when this came out, it was just a pivot point that, like, we couldn't have foreseen what the world would become, like, either technologically, in terms of, like, broadcast, uh, the way we consume television, any of these things, like, uh, uh, uh, the fact that, you know, that Ento's, you know, computer even works in a, in a, in a, in that warehouse, like, it's crazy, like, again, I there's just a lot happening here that, that, that, you know, we could take another 3 hours to sort, sort of unpack it all. I think the other thing about watching it with a, with a perspective from 2026 is thinking about John Barriman's reputation and what's happened to that. And before we started recording, I was saying, day two, is that the one where he ends up butt naked in a quarry as that was clearly the most memorable thing? in the episode. And yet watching that sequence again. I was thinking about the production team sort of buying into Barrowman's own reputation. As, you know, he was, he's been criticised for his, um, his antics on set. There's been a whole sort of, there's been a whole sort of postmodem on all that. Um, but before that happened, he was sort of cheeky chap, he was sort of, uh, he was sort of rude. He was all those sort of things. And I wondered, do you do you write, I think you write that last scene of them in the quarry and him crawling out and they could kind of knowing that's his persona. Kind of understanding that that's the sort of actor he is and we can get him to do that. you know. And so it's having to be naked on the set. Yeah, so I think it's an artefact of its time. It shows that actually there was something, um, something understood, I think, about his his reputation and what that meant for the program. I think, though, too, there is, you know, that that he's reduced in this episode. Do you know what I mean? Like, literally reduced to just kind of a bag of bits, I think Johnson says. And so when he emerges, he's he's naked, but he's not sexy naked in any way. And and he's filthy and kind of dogged and stuff. And, you know, like I made that crack about how, you know, Gwen is trying desperately not to look at him, like to try and look away even though she knows what it looks like by that point. And then he, you know, takes the jacket and doesn't cover himself. And he just goes, screw it and just walks doggedly towards the car through the mud, you know, like, but I think, I mean, I'm interested. Yeah, it's interesting to talk about whether that's a kind of a deliberate choice from knowing, you know, the production knowing what kind of actor he is. I'm sort of wondering whether it's partly the way he chooses to shoot the scene because that is the kind of actor that he walks like that. But also Gwen kind of, the way she looks away and kind of, she almost kind of glances heavenward when he just walks up to a completely naked and he, and she hands him the coat. It's that thing of like, you know, oh, for God's sake, Jack, of course that you're going to walk towards me naked, not caring. Like, you know, for God's sake, put it, put it, put something on. You know what I mean? Like, I'm almost seeing that as well in it. And also remember, if he is an entity that's like, you know, 100s and 100s and 100s of years old, it's not unreasonable that he's completely relaxed to do that. But, I mean, he has been just kind of physically humiliated and so on. Do you know what I mean? Like he's literally reduced her, this sort of gory skeleton. in this episode. and and so and he's tired and all of that. Like, I think there's a defeat there. And then he comes back from that defeat, I think. And that's one of the things that I definitely wanted to talk about. And I was talking about it earlier about how, you know, one of the things about Berman's sort of fraught legacy, uh, but one thing that is not deniable is that in these 5 episodes, you know, whether however he or Gwen choose to play certain moments, the character is written as almost explicitly non-heroic. Like the Jack character is sidelined for most of for most of the 5 episodes, and he's never, in any, in anyone's mouth or anyone's mind, especially his, his, uh, his daughter, um, like he's never presented as someone who is heroic or a role model or anyone that we should want to look up to or want to emulate in really almost any way conceivable. Uh, and that, that, you know, we were talking about, you know, his body being shown not being sexy. The other body that's shown in this episode is Johnny's body when they, when the soldiers go through the, are going through the apartment. That's also not very sexy. But one of the things about, you know, it goes to what I was going to say earlier about masculinity and the way that masculinity and femininity are delineated in children of earth, is that for whatever reason, it is women who are competent, stable, physical capable. I mean, you see with when when we were talking about Gwen earlier like Gwen, her character is written in such a way that she can go from, you know, 2 guns blazing to having a, you know, uh, to having that sort of tender, intimate moment with Reese in the potato truck, like within within moments of each other. Like, there's something really, I don't know, there's something more complex about the way that women are written in this particular series that really, like, that really stood out to me on this rewatch. And I think it's something that we should hash out at least a little bit, at least in the way that it happens in this episode because we have so many, like you were saying, we have a panoply of characters. And, I mean, it's also almost in a way, like the Russell, the RTD version of sort of the Canterbury Tales, children of Earth, because Dryden or Dryden, John Dryden, the poet said of Chaucer's Canterbury Tales, here is God's plenty. In other words, like here is like, you're going to see everything that there is about humanity in the course of this work. And I feel like children of earth gives us a cast like that. And again, the way that the men and the women are delineated really plays a huge part in the structure of that world. I think, you know, the one person who knows Jack more than anyone else who we had never heard of and is part of, you know, that secret life is Alice. And when Alice describes him, she just says, you're dangerous. You know, you're not experimenting on my son. You know, you have to stay away. This is why I ask you to stay away. And so the conclusion, I think, is inevitable and not unexpected. And I think it works extremely well. And we'll get there because I think there's a good deal of moral complexity around all of that. It's interesting, though, if I can just get back to Barriman's nakedness in the quarry, is that, I mean, you say sort of it's not sexy and I don't think that's, I mean, I don't know about that. I just think he just needed to, he work out a bit more. Oh, no, no, I don't mean it's not sexy because he's like physically flabby or anything like that. I don't care about that at all. Um, I, but it's not sexy naked in the way that the previous, the previous time that Russell tried to get Barrowman's butt crack on BBC One was... Yeah, the Trini and Susana scene, where he was not permitted to have the butt crack. But he couldn't. Right And so I think he wants to have it here. And that is sexy. You know, like Barrowman, he's in better shape then. He's a few years younger. But it's not just that. It is that it's about him being swaggeringly confident and happy with being naked. He's doing it in front of these women, like who are not cowered by him, but it is in a situation where he's, you know, being cocky for want of a better word. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that, whereas here he's just tired and filthy and slow moving. Yes, yes, yes, yes. It's a Melbourne's point about our gender's portrayed. Actually, I think, for me, the fact is that we have male and female characters, both being heroic and capable and villainous and all of those sort of things, it's not drawn attention to, it's just there. And I think that that's the delineation, that, um, you know, you could, you could have a female prime minister if you wanted. You could have a female frobisher if you wanted. You could have a, you know, you could, it's not presented as anything other than this is the norm. You know, that that both men and women have uh, have a role in both villainy and in heroism in this, in this world, the children of earth is set in. I mean, if there's a villain, it's Frobisher, isn't it? Like, if you want to just sort of put your finger on someone. He's the one who does the blank page. He's the one who is sending people to kill Jack and Yanto and Gwen. In a sense, he's the villain. And then later on in the series, we're going to get Bridget speech about him being a good man. And what does any of that mean? And, you know, he's a father. He's concerned for his children, all of that stuff. Yeah, but that's what makes it an adult drama. Exactly right. Because of the fact that he's not sitting there swelling his moustache. And he's not even doing what he thinks is right. He's doing what he knows to be wrong because he thinks that there is a greater good that will be served from it. And he's terribly uncomfortable doing all those things. He doesn't hand the paper, the blank, the file with the blank paper, with glee, with wow, we're going to kill them all. It is he's not happy doing it. He's not happy doing any of that. and that's what makes it interesting. That's the kind of villain, quote unquote, that I want to see because I want to see that they've got, they are doing this for a greater purpose. But maybe it isn't even that, though, too. Maybe it isn't that he's aware of a greater purpose here. aware of it hopeful. Well, or, do you know what I mean? I'm trapped. This is all... That's exactly it. Because you have the contrast between him and Lois. Yes. There's all this institutional history that he has that Lois doesn't have. So Lois is free to commit treason on Tuesday. Yes. After starting work on Monday. Whereas he can't do any of that. He's far too gone. He's far too gone. And that is always something more interesting to them. That's why going back to what I said earlier about the Prime Minister's characterisation. That's like He's a little bit too evil. It's like, no, no, no, no, no, no. That's why I think that the Prime Minister's characterisation earlier is poor because it's just it's cardboard. Well, in fact, I think there's a really a fairly weak speech in episode one where he says that, you know, I feel like I'm undersieged from above. There are constant aliens here and you kind of think, oh, so you're evil for space reasons. So, and I'm right thinking, because I haven't watched it, the rest of it. So they have to decide the 10% of the children have to be sent off to like be eaten by these gas creatures or whatever they are. And they're selected from the lower socioeconomic rungs of the thing. Right. There's a fabulous character called Denise, who says, what on earth are the school league tables for? Oh, that's so... She's left in charge at the end. by the way. Yeah, all right, okay, okay, okay. Yes, yeah. And it's not, it's not to be eaten. They're to be used as recreational drugs. Right, well, consumed in some way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But nevertheless, is that done in a way which is we have to do this. We have to sacrifice 10% of our children so that the other 90% can survive. Yes, but there's very much a no one around this table is going to be affected by what happens. How do we make sure that no? Yeah, yeah, that's right. And that's why, and that's, and that makes, and that makes Frobisher's character, not even really a, a villain so much as a tragic, like, I mean, it's a proper credit. He's horrified. Sorry, it really, it really got me because I had forgotten, like, I remembered that he, and sorry, spoilers for a 17-year-old show, uh that he commits suicide, but I had forgotten that he, it's, and if he had waited 20 minutes, if he had wait, that it's, it's, it's terrible to watch. And like that was the word that came into my mind when I watched it, it was just, it's tragic what happens to him. But again, like, but he is a career civil servant, and this is like, there's, it's the, you know, to, to, to, uh, uh, reuse, uh uh, a very tired phrase, the sort of banality of evil. It's not even, it's not even evil. It's just function. he just a functionary. He's just doing his job. And that's, it's that sort of tragedy, which is, I think, why, as I said before, this is why it makes it a grown-up drama. And I think it's sometimes even though, you know, Doctor Who's a family show. when Doctor Who is, it is at its best, we see aspects of this, not to the same degree, but we see this sort of stuff in it, they're always, for me, the stronger stories because there's a sense of, as well as a sense of right and wrong. There's a sense of people struggling to make the right choice as opposed to just being evil. I mean, sometimes the villain's just a billionaire who wants to have sex with a plant, though. And that's fine, I think. Well, that's over time we'll have for this week. We'll be back next week for a ringside seat with the 456 in Torchwood Children of Earth, day three. In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts and you can keep up with us on our website, 500yearDiary.com, where you'll find our social media links, as well as links to all of our other podcasts, including the entirety of flight or entirety, which comprises every episode of our 4 Doctor Who podcasts. Until next time, remember to always touch up your Lippy before withdrawing money from the automatic telemachine. Thank you very much for listening and good night. Good night. Good night. Bye bye. That was 500 Year Diary, starring Nathan Bottomley, Simon Moore Melvin Penya, and Johnny Spandrel. The theme was composed by Cameron Lamb. This episode, Treason on Tuesday. It was recorded on the 1st of March, 2026 and released on the 22nd of March. Fans of British TV will enjoy the latest episode of the three handed game, in which our very own Brendan and Richard interview Australian actress Annette Andre, who had a long career in British and Australian television, including an episode each of the Avengers and the new Avengers. Search for the 3 handed game wherever you get your podcasts. And that's the hardest thing. I'm sorry. I want to go out. The hardest thing when you get there. And that's the hardest thing when you get there, Simon, is that the choice he has to make, he makes because he knows he knows what's going to happen to the children and it is... It's one of the most awful things I've ever seen. Like, I just, I did not remember how awful that was. Yeah. And in another reading of it, the villain is is Jack, right? Because he's the one who made a terrible choice years ago, which has all, yeah, and these repercussions later on. Though it is, you know, again, we keep using this term adult drama when we might just use the term drama. But the, um, but one of the great things about it is that it's difficult to pinpoint exactly who is in the wrong, exactly. Children of Earth. you know. Yeah, I mean, I think there's there's very, you know, there are people who are openly heroic like Rhiannon and Lois, I think, you know, are both like Rhiannon is is saving everyone's children, so they can go to work. And on that last day where she sends kids out to say quick, you know, because she knows that they're coming for the children. Like Yanto has said, don't let them get David and Misha. And so she saves, like, tries to save everyone's children on the estate. And like, and that's a tremendous, you know, and I think that's the real high point of episode 5 when all this horrible stuff is happening. And Lois, you know, like who is just a solidly good person. And, and there's that thing. I didn't sign the official Secrets Act, so I could cover up murder. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, uh, like it's, it's pretty great and she is, she's pretty good. It's so good I don't know when she's had time to sign the official secrets. She only started on Monday. Well, no one even knows her. Like, it's just like that you employed her and now Bridget's going hello, I'm Lois, I think, because you didn't meet her at the job interview. Okay, HR. And HR got to the same... See, it was an orientation day last. Okay, all right. and got her swipe. Well, and that's the other computer password. she's asked to provide with computer password, yes. And that's one of the other things that comes up, you know, again it's a very minor theme, but it is a theme throughout the throughout the, throughout the series is, again, like the, the way that, the way that governments are run, you know, the way that, and it's all governments because, you know, we see when the Americans come and stick their head in, including the, the general from America who shows up again in the war between the land and the sea column, is that Colin McFarlane? Uh, I think that's who plays that. He's really good He's much better in this than. But isn't Colin McFarlane to see the character in, um, the, is he the ghost guy in, um... Same guy. Is it the same guy? Yeah, the same guy. Yeah, yes, yes, yeah. Yeah, yeah. But the, you know, there is, again, there's a sense in which the governments of the world are, and again, it's something that looking back at it from, as, as Johnny was saying from 2026. Like we, like we know that they cover, that they, you know, the governments, you know, have, you know, their own sort of self interest, economic interests, that have nothing to do with the running of the actual running of government. So that, you know, the hiring practises have their own sort of like, it's its own functional thing so that people will slip through the cracks. So these sort of lapses of security are almost inevitable inevitably going to happen. So, I mean, this is part of it as well, is that, you know, if government were, you know, uh, uh, uh, focussed on the things that government should be focussed on, which is the welfare and well being of the people. I mean, that's, you know, when Denise has that line about the league tables, like, if, you know, if the education system worked like, this wouldn't be a problem. Like all of these things happen, uh, uh, are cascading issues over you know, decades of, of, of government bloat and and, and malfeasance and, you know, ignorance. think that's cool. That, um, that saying, the, the murder suicide, for God's sake, is so unbelievably brutal, and it's done while Bridget is having the speech about what a good man he is. Like it's really, it's terribly well done. Brutal. And that's the thing is, like, it almost feels like when she's saying talking about how good he is. She means that he's like, it almost feels like she's talking about him in his in his job role. Yeah. Like, he's he's he's a good man. Like, he shows up. He does his work, like, that it's almost, you know, the way that she's defining good. Yeah, I think that's different than the way that we that we're understanding it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he's so good. He goes, and thanks to the prime minister for the opportunity. And that's the goodness that she's referring to, but he's a, that he's compliant. Because when the prime minister tells him to do it, There's one moment where you kind of think, like, why does he not flip the desk? What does he have to lose at this point, there's no one in the room with him. Do you know what I mean? It can't get worse. I guess that the prime minister says, well, we'll just take your children without you. Do you know what I mean? Like the thread, like is kind of inescapable. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. sort of dread inevitability. Yeah. Yeah. And it's so cruel. It's so petty. Like it's not needed. You know? He's just doing it because he can. And he said he will in episode two. That's what he's saying in episode two. I'll just do this to you. You're the first person to fall.