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This transcript was created on 2026-05-03 at 08:49:11

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to 500 Year Diary.

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The only Doctor Who podcast with plans to nip back in time to 1945

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to lace Fred and Mary Ann's highballs with radium.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Adam.

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I'm Kate.

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I'm pizza.

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It's the 15th of August, 1991.

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Just over 2 months ago, Virgin Publishing launched a new series of

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original novels to broad, deep, wide and thick for the small

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screen.

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The Virgin New Adventures. which would serve as our only source of

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new Doctor Who for nearly 10 years, you know, apart from that one

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night in 1996.

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And who else should they tap to contribute to the range, but

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Terrence Dix, the man who has written more Doctor Who novels than

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anyone else ever, and whose association with the show stretches

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back more than 20 years.

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Can Terence create original Doctor Who for a new decade, a new era

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and a new medium?

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Let's find out as we head back to Nazi occupied London in 1951 for

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Timeworm Exodus.

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So, this is the second of Virgin's new adventures in the second in

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the timeworm series.

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Maybe we could just talk briefly about what the Virgin New

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Adventures meant to us, perhaps.

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Well, I know for Kate, it was a living for a little while.

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At that point, it was certainly my ambition.

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As soon as I saw those guidelines, that's what I'm going to have a

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go at.

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Yeah.

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I submitted one.

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I was 19.

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I got told there was too much running around getting caught in

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escaping.

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I'm like, yes, that's Doctor Who.

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Someone brought up on season 22.

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It's literally what it was it was a Colin Baker one.

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Kate, I remember back in those days.

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I remember that virtually as soon as they published the guidelines

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on it, you were like, I'm going to make my 1st submission and your

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1st novel comes around very quickly.

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Yeah.

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My 1st attempt was refused for similar reasons.

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It was too linear.

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It was too preachy.

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Yeah, was it?

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The sequel to the arc with the refusion.

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Rubbish.

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I did a 2nd one and that was sort of, yes, maybe. and I thought

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God, that's encouraging.

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Yeah.

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And then the 3rd one, it was like, that's the left-handed

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hummingbird.

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So yeah, but I mean, I was just going to keep shooting off

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attempts until they had to publish a manuscript just so that they

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could actually leave the office.

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Get all paper out of the way.

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That was the old days when it was actual paper.

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Like you had to send in physical, like now you're just far off an

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email and go, can you publish my thing?

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They're like, nah.

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I think I remember seeing like manuscripts of yours, you know

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double spaced and all of that sort of thing, pieces of paper.

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Yeah.

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So this is before your published, obviously, and this is the 1st

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Tet trilogy of stories, and we've had John Peel, is it?

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Yes, they did the 1st one.

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The weirdly rapey Gilgamesh one.

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Yeah.

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Like the dawn of civilisation business.

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And so it's called Genesis with a Y. like the Terminator movie.

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All things where you spell Genesis with a Y of questionable

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quality.

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That's true.

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This is Exodus without a Y.

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It doesn't seem to have anything to do with an actual exodus.

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Apart from the fact that it's set during the war and they

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mentioned Jews twice and they're, you know.

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And they all eventually moved to Israel.

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Like, other than that, yeah, it's weird, isn't it?

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And then we have 2 that are both called like Revelation and

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Apocalypse, which are the same book.

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Yes.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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Well, nobody's going to do Timeworm Kings 2 or something.

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Yeah, yeah, Timeworm Matthew.

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Time worm Leviticus.

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Oh, Lord, you thought Genesis was raping?

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And of course you get Terrence to do one.

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Yes.

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Yes.

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I mean, the great mystery is that Terence wasn't asked to go

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thirst.

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Yeah.

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And he will next time, won't he?

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Yeah, let's see how that goes.

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But he was the obvious choice too, if not go first, to be very

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early on, because what I think Terence gives in the product and

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with his reputation is he brings fans board.

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It's like, don't be scared.

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Terrence is involved.

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It's like a halfway house between the novelisations and sort of

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the 2 broad, 2 deep stories that are to come in the novel range

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and I think it was a very canny idea having him.

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Yeah, it kind of legitimises it in a way.

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It's like, 0 no, this is the guy you know from the show.

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And that you've read all his 4000 books as a 12 year old.

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That's right.

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And, you know, if you're not sure if the novels are going to be

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like the TV show, read this because this is going to read exactly

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like a novelisation of the TV show.

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Yes.

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And I think he does a very good job.

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I have to say that I didn't really enjoy it very much.

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But he certainly does what we expect Terrence to do.

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You know, it's a plot where things happen.

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There's a range of different villains.

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It's a sequel to something that we've covered already, which I had

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forgotten.

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Did you forget about that?

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Yeah, yeah, it's really funny.

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I actually think.

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Because I collected all of the new adventures all the way up till

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Falls the Shadow and Falls the Shadow defeated me.

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It's just like, I...

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And they're still all upstairs somewhere under a 100 different

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unopened Lego kits that will be getting rid of at Calvin's wake.

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And so I will never see them again.

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So I definitely had a copy of it, but I actually don't think I

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ever read it.

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And obviously at the time, I don't think I had seen, had we seen

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the War Games by 1991.

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The war games, I believe, was released in 1990 or 1991.

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Okay, okay.

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So maybe we had seen it.

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Oh, yeah, I think it was on telly, wasn't it?

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before then?

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1969, yes. repeat just.

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Because I remember seeing the war games before and, you know, had

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read the book, obviously.

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But yeah, I was living in the UK when these came out, and it was

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exciting and fun and because I'd moved over there in 91, waiting

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for Doctor Who to come back on, as we all were.

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I thought you'd be 1st in the queue.

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Well, I'm going to see it before it gets to Australia 6 months or

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4 years later. as was the style at the time.

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And yeah, so these came out and I was like almost, like on one

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hand, it was like a great big fat sign saying, you know, it's not

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coming back.

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And I'd enjoyed reading some of those Star Trek books.

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Like some of those were great.

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You know, you had great writers like Greg Bear and Vonder McIntyre

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writing those kind of things.

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So I was like, oh, maybe this is the, you know, this will be

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Doctor Who's version.

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And it wasn't.

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On the whole, no.

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But there are some spectacular ones, including ones written by

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people in the room.

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Yeah.

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On the call with us now.

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Well, you know, there's only a handful of new adventures that I've

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read twice.

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Wow.

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And that's not any indictment of them.

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You know, there's something you got.

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I got every single one of them.

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I enjoyed most of them.

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I read them all.

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The ones I returned to twice.

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Obviously, Kate's because she's a friend and because they're all

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exceptionally good.

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And also, Timeline Exodus, because when you want that little

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charge of Terenceism, and you want something which is so aligned

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with the series as it was and reads like the Doctor Who of your

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childhood.

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It's a go-to book.

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So I think I've read Exodus maybe 3 or 4 times.

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Okay.

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Okay.

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One thing I do love about Terrence's writing is it's like Agatha

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Christie.

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It is unmistakeable.

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It is straightforward.

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It's easy to read.

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And he has a turn of phrase that you go, oh, we're using that now

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aren't we?

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I mean, sometimes he does some really genuinely clever things with

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language.

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And of course, I think if we all thought hard enough, we would be

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able to come up with words that we learned from reading

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novelisations by Terrence, words that he introduced us to.

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I didn't know what a tunic was for most of my life, but I knew

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that it was a thing.

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Voluminous.

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Capacious.

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Yeah, yeah.

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So, I mean, that's a huge deal.

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And it was super readable.

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Like I did find myself going through it.

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And I think a lot of the younger writers wanted to be

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challenging.

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And so you would have the sort of every 2nd chapter would be in

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italics and seem to have nothing to do with what was going on.

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I mean, even Exodus false victim.

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Oh yeah.

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You know, that sort of thing where it's just like, really, this is

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much, much more work than I want to do to read a TV tie in book at

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this point, where Terrence writes very straightforwardly and

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breezily and interestingly, and he makes things happen.

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He outlines pretty clear characters and stuff.

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Like, I think there's a lot of virtue to it.

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I do think, though, Terrence wrote the novelisations for

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children.

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The TV show was for adults, but the novelisations were for

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children.

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And here he is writing for adults.

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And I think what he's decided is that what adults like is things

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that are mostly boring.

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So, um, so with children, you know, you've got to throw a monster

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in or something thrilling, but this is just going to be like

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people talking quite a lot.

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And I used to say when we did the 60s stories in flights through

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entirety, that a story would be vastly improved by flinging a

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terraleptyl in, uh, uh, and the Aztecs with a pteroreptyl.

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Do you know what I mean?

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The Romans with the pter leptol.

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Oh my god, the massacre with a whole bunch of pteroactic.

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Or is the deep.

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It would actually be much better.

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And clearly as well.

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So Terrence is born in 1935.

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So when he's a little boy, the war is going on and he's of sort of

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Doctor Who age when it finishes and clearly he's super interested

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in the war, you've heard his opinion about the Nazis, Peter, what

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did he say?

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What an incredible bunch of cooks.

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And it shows very much in this novel.

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Yeah, in fact, one of the things that's really striking about

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reading the novel in 2025.

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Oh my god.

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Yeah, yeah.

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He's just Hitler's not a great orator.

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He's an idiot.

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He's sort of basically incompetent.

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His speech is are all about nothing.

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They're long rambling rallies where he just doesn't talk about

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it.

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And just starts screaming.

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Yeah, yeah.

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And people get riled up by the screaming and the yelling.

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And then everyone's making money.

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Like everyone's a crook.

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Everyone's on the take and so they're making money for themselves

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describes more physically and such grotesque time.

258
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Oh, yeah, ratty and corpulent.

259
00:12:27.059 --> 00:12:28.679
Not together.

260
00:12:28.860 --> 00:12:31.799
And so, you know, this is his thing.

261
00:12:31.860 --> 00:12:35.039
This is the thing that he's been longing to ride, I think.

262
00:12:35.100 --> 00:12:41.940
And so he does go to the alternative earth where the Nazis won, and

263
00:12:41.940 --> 00:12:45.120
it's his 2nd Doctor Who novelisation where he's done that, because

264
00:12:45.120 --> 00:12:47.279
of course he did Dalek Invasion of Earth.

265
00:12:48.059 --> 00:12:52.799
And it's a little bit of a kind of, it's played, I think, by

266
00:12:52.799 --> 00:12:53.700
1991.

267
00:12:53.820 --> 00:12:56.220
We've had a lot of those. over the years.

268
00:12:56.279 --> 00:13:00.480
Philip K. Dix, but spectacular work, the man in the high castle

269
00:13:00.480 --> 00:13:02.340
where you're just like, oh yeah, this is what happens.

270
00:13:02.399 --> 00:13:03.120
Right.

271
00:13:03.120 --> 00:13:06.240
Well, remember the story which Terrence Scripted is at Inferno.

272
00:13:06.299 --> 00:13:11.279
Yeah, where they're living in that Britain, where fascism won.

273
00:13:11.340 --> 00:13:15.600
This almost feels like an upside down version of Inferno where it

274
00:13:15.600 --> 00:13:19.139
like it starts in the alternate world and then goes back. instead

275
00:13:19.139 --> 00:13:21.480
of starting in our world and then going to the fascist world.

276
00:13:36.120 --> 00:13:40.679
I can just see Terrence getting those instructions from Virgin

277
00:13:40.679 --> 00:13:41.639
publishing.

278
00:13:41.820 --> 00:13:43.019
These books are for adults.

279
00:13:43.080 --> 00:13:44.519
You can do adult things in them.

280
00:13:44.580 --> 00:13:47.220
These are not novelisations. children that have to be safe.

281
00:13:47.279 --> 00:13:50.580
John Peel, I think perhaps interpreted that as you can be sexy.

282
00:13:50.639 --> 00:13:51.840
So...

283
00:13:51.840 --> 00:13:53.279
Inverted colours.

284
00:13:53.879 --> 00:13:56.700
You know, he did not shy away from such topics.

285
00:13:56.759 --> 00:13:58.320
No, I'm Genesis.

286
00:13:58.379 --> 00:14:01.019
And Charice's thought, if this is not for kids, I can actually go

287
00:14:01.019 --> 00:14:02.279
in amongst Nazis.

288
00:14:02.340 --> 00:14:02.820
Yeah.

289
00:14:02.820 --> 00:14:05.100
I can have the doctor help Hitler.

290
00:14:05.159 --> 00:14:06.539
I mean, it's part of our plan.

291
00:14:06.600 --> 00:14:12.000
But this is kind of a taboo area where, you know, you're not

292
00:14:12.000 --> 00:14:15.299
really supposed to see these, especially these high ranking

293
00:14:15.299 --> 00:14:15.720
Nazis.

294
00:14:15.779 --> 00:14:16.740
There's anything human at all.

295
00:14:16.799 --> 00:14:18.960
And they are in his version.

296
00:14:19.019 --> 00:14:21.840
They are very flawed, very corrupt human beings.

297
00:14:21.899 --> 00:14:25.440
And we kind of, we will take their point of view for a page and

298
00:14:25.440 --> 00:14:27.600
just sort of see what makes them tick and then go to somewhere

299
00:14:27.600 --> 00:14:28.019
else.

300
00:14:28.379 --> 00:14:32.340
You make certain among them quite likeable way.

301
00:14:32.399 --> 00:14:36.000
Like, I'm thinking general stressor in the Britain timeline early

302
00:14:36.000 --> 00:14:40.259
on and Goring actually come across quite well and you catch

303
00:14:40.259 --> 00:14:41.220
yourself double thinking.

304
00:14:41.279 --> 00:14:42.000
Hang on.

305
00:14:42.059 --> 00:14:42.960
Wait, wait.

306
00:14:43.080 --> 00:14:45.899
Yeah, even Borman seems like a fairly decent guy.

307
00:14:45.960 --> 00:14:48.659
It's like, oh, yeah, he's just good at doing his paperwork.

308
00:14:49.320 --> 00:14:53.159
I think a clever thing that Terrence has done is because the

309
00:14:53.159 --> 00:14:56.820
doctor's got ace, essentially a child figure or an adolescent

310
00:14:56.820 --> 00:14:57.659
figure with him.

311
00:14:57.720 --> 00:15:02.580
She can do the appropriate moral reactions to everything.

312
00:15:02.639 --> 00:15:05.340
As soon as Hitler says something about the Jews, she's furious, but

313
00:15:05.340 --> 00:15:07.139
the doctor stops her from doing anything that would get them

314
00:15:07.139 --> 00:15:07.379
killed.

315
00:15:07.440 --> 00:15:10.860
Then the doctor can be the one who goes in and manipulates the

316
00:15:10.860 --> 00:15:14.340
Nazis, interacts with them, pretends to be their pal, because we

317
00:15:14.340 --> 00:15:16.620
have this moral centre by his side.

318
00:15:16.679 --> 00:15:19.200
And I think that's actually quite a clever use of them.

319
00:15:19.259 --> 00:15:22.799
Although I object to having a faint, a scream and faint.

320
00:15:22.860 --> 00:15:25.379
No, that's that's just a mischaracterize.

321
00:15:25.440 --> 00:15:26.820
And even she points that out.

322
00:15:26.879 --> 00:15:31.740
There's a hilarious line later on where she says, honest professor

323
00:15:31.740 --> 00:15:35.340
me screaming and fainting, but she's embarrassed and he responds

324
00:15:35.340 --> 00:15:37.500
you've got to stop clinging to this macho image, which I thought

325
00:15:37.500 --> 00:15:38.340
was hilarious.

326
00:15:38.399 --> 00:15:42.600
He says he would be screaming the place down if he was in the same

327
00:15:42.600 --> 00:15:42.899
situation.

328
00:15:44.460 --> 00:15:49.080
What you were saying about the fact that Terence takes his

329
00:15:49.080 --> 00:15:51.360
instructions as being more adult.

330
00:15:51.419 --> 00:15:54.600
I like what that allows him to do with characterising the doctor

331
00:15:54.600 --> 00:15:58.740
because there's a very striking moment early on where the doctor

332
00:15:58.740 --> 00:16:03.480
physically attacks the 2 thugs who are harassing the guy at the

333
00:16:03.480 --> 00:16:04.620
festival of Britain.

334
00:16:04.679 --> 00:16:06.120
And that's quite a striking moment.

335
00:16:06.120 --> 00:16:09.240
And you wouldn't imagine that happening on television, but I think

336
00:16:09.240 --> 00:16:11.580
Terrence has gone, the stakes here are high.

337
00:16:11.639 --> 00:16:14.340
There's Nazi thugs in charge of the world at this point.

338
00:16:14.399 --> 00:16:17.039
There's these 2 small-time villains hassling this guy.

339
00:16:17.159 --> 00:16:21.240
When the doctor assumes his role as kind of the Nazi who they're

340
00:16:21.240 --> 00:16:22.320
going to defer to.

341
00:16:22.379 --> 00:16:25.559
The fact that he physically beats them around the head is quite

342
00:16:25.559 --> 00:16:26.039
shocking.

343
00:16:26.460 --> 00:16:29.460
I have to say that I didn't like that at all.

344
00:16:29.519 --> 00:16:34.379
And there is something where part of the thing about hanging

345
00:16:34.379 --> 00:16:38.700
around with the Nazis is that they put you in moral peril because

346
00:16:38.700 --> 00:16:43.019
you know, in a way, it's okay and perhaps even in some

347
00:16:43.019 --> 00:16:46.440
circumstances morally obligatory to punch them in the face.

348
00:16:46.500 --> 00:16:51.179
But the doctor sometimes comments on that feeling of wanting to do

349
00:16:51.179 --> 00:16:55.139
that, both in AC and in himself, that the Nazis are corrupting

350
00:16:55.139 --> 00:16:55.919
morally.

351
00:16:55.980 --> 00:16:59.100
But for me, the problem that I have is that it's a

352
00:16:59.100 --> 00:17:02.279
misunderstanding of Sylvester McCoy's doctor, that he is never

353
00:17:02.279 --> 00:17:06.599
physically violent, that he never, ever shoots someone.

354
00:17:06.660 --> 00:17:09.180
Remember when Terrence was script editing.

355
00:17:09.240 --> 00:17:13.920
You had Pertwe shooting Ogons with guns and killing them. for

356
00:17:13.920 --> 00:17:14.160
that.

357
00:17:14.339 --> 00:17:17.759
But Sylvester McCoy's doctor would never, ever do that.

358
00:17:17.819 --> 00:17:19.859
You have ace shooting people dead.

359
00:17:19.920 --> 00:17:21.720
You have ace blowing people up.

360
00:17:21.779 --> 00:17:25.140
That's something that would never, ever have happened in the McCoy

361
00:17:25.140 --> 00:17:25.740
era.

362
00:17:25.799 --> 00:17:29.940
And all of the kind of moral peril and stuff that the doctor is in

363
00:17:29.940 --> 00:17:34.140
is things like blowing up Scaro or blowing up the cyberfleet or

364
00:17:34.140 --> 00:17:37.440
whatever, which is done from a distance, but he himself is never

365
00:17:37.440 --> 00:17:42.779
violent and he prevents people in his presence from using guns if

366
00:17:42.779 --> 00:17:43.559
he can.

367
00:17:43.799 --> 00:17:46.440
And so I thought that that was a misreading of the character.

368
00:17:46.500 --> 00:17:50.039
I mean, Terence has a handle on the doctor, of course, because he

369
00:17:50.039 --> 00:17:52.920
creates the character of the doctor in all kinds of ways.

370
00:17:52.980 --> 00:17:55.980
But I don't think he gets McCoy's doctor.

371
00:17:56.039 --> 00:17:59.099
Well, that's because this is a 3rd doctor novel.

372
00:17:59.160 --> 00:18:00.180
Yes, yeah.

373
00:18:00.240 --> 00:18:01.259
Yeah, essentially.

374
00:18:01.380 --> 00:18:04.440
It's hard to imagine the 7th doctor saying, good grief.

375
00:18:06.000 --> 00:18:11.279
I don't find it difficult to envisage to Wester's doctor doing a

376
00:18:11.279 --> 00:18:13.859
lot of the things that he does in this book and that hearing him

377
00:18:13.859 --> 00:18:15.180
say the things that he says in this book.

378
00:18:15.240 --> 00:18:17.940
But it does strike me as the 3rd doctor a lot.

379
00:18:18.000 --> 00:18:18.839
Yeah, yeah.

380
00:18:18.900 --> 00:18:22.619
I mean, when the doctor punches a Nazi or punches a racist on

381
00:18:22.619 --> 00:18:23.940
television in thin ice.

382
00:18:24.000 --> 00:18:27.960
The thing about that that's so great is, firstly, the guy

383
00:18:27.960 --> 00:18:30.660
absolutely richly deserves it and so it's fun to watch.

384
00:18:30.720 --> 00:18:33.900
But secondly, it's him losing.

385
00:18:33.960 --> 00:18:38.099
You know, he's he's lectured Bill on retaining her composure and

386
00:18:38.099 --> 00:18:41.099
behaving and stuff and then he punches the guy in the face the

387
00:18:41.099 --> 00:18:42.119
moment he says anything.

388
00:18:42.180 --> 00:18:43.859
And so it's him being an idiot.

389
00:18:43.920 --> 00:18:45.000
You know what I mean?

390
00:18:45.059 --> 00:18:49.740
Whereas I actually found the scenes of the doctor being violent

391
00:18:49.740 --> 00:18:52.859
and the doctor hanging out with the Nazis actually really quite

392
00:18:52.859 --> 00:18:55.859
unenjoyable because yeah.

393
00:18:55.920 --> 00:19:02.279
Just because that's, I mean, this version of Doctor Who doesn't

394
00:19:02.279 --> 00:19:04.980
have to be the version that I see on TV or anything like that, but

395
00:19:04.980 --> 00:19:08.759
it's Sylvester McCoy's doctor that's being portrayed here.

396
00:19:08.819 --> 00:19:12.299
And I just don't think, I think he doesn't capture him.

397
00:19:12.359 --> 00:19:13.980
He's still doing a 1970s.

398
00:19:14.099 --> 00:19:16.500
I think you're right, Kate, that it feels like a 3rd doctor story

399
00:19:16.500 --> 00:19:20.640
because the 3rd doctor is like in the firmament with, you know

400
00:19:20.640 --> 00:19:24.059
hanging out of the club with Squidge or whatever his name is and

401
00:19:24.059 --> 00:19:28.319
being part of that whole sort of, you know, Boney, I said.

402
00:19:28.380 --> 00:19:28.680
Yeah.

403
00:19:28.680 --> 00:19:31.680
Like all of that kind of thing.

404
00:19:31.740 --> 00:19:34.920
And you can see the 3rd doctor just like settling down with a

405
00:19:34.920 --> 00:19:38.339
bunch of Nazis and going, yeah, this is this is who's in charge.

406
00:19:38.400 --> 00:19:42.180
I will suck up to them and get what I need out of them and then

407
00:19:42.180 --> 00:19:43.019
shut them down.

408
00:19:43.140 --> 00:19:45.900
That's why those scenes really do work well for me.

409
00:19:45.960 --> 00:19:49.200
They're probably my favourite part of the book because while

410
00:19:49.200 --> 00:19:52.319
Sylvester's doctor is very good at insinuating himself into a

411
00:19:52.319 --> 00:19:54.299
situation, which is what he does there.

412
00:19:54.359 --> 00:19:56.940
The book does a good job of making you realise that the doctor

413
00:19:56.940 --> 00:20:01.200
kind of is dripping with contempt at the same time for these

414
00:20:01.200 --> 00:20:01.440
people.

415
00:20:01.440 --> 00:20:05.759
I think that's part of Terrence moving it towards more of an adult

416
00:20:05.759 --> 00:20:08.640
reader, but I think it's also partly a symptom of the fact that

417
00:20:08.640 --> 00:20:11.700
Terrence never novelized a 7th doctor story.

418
00:20:11.759 --> 00:20:15.000
And so when people, and I suspect when he said people, he meant

419
00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:19.440
Paul Cornell, told him what to watch, they directed him to the

420
00:20:19.440 --> 00:20:23.700
curse of Fenrick to get a handle on Sylvester and Sophie's

421
00:20:23.700 --> 00:20:26.220
characters, and he watched it several times over.

422
00:20:26.279 --> 00:20:30.059
And Kursa Frederick is a certain kind of heightened drama for both

423
00:20:30.059 --> 00:20:30.839
of those characters.

424
00:20:30.900 --> 00:20:32.880
And I think that's what he latches onto.

425
00:20:41.039 --> 00:20:45.660
Another aspect that would be considered more adult than your

426
00:20:45.660 --> 00:20:49.680
average target novelisation would be the existence of torture in

427
00:20:49.680 --> 00:20:50.220
this universe.

428
00:20:50.279 --> 00:20:50.819
Yeah.

429
00:20:50.819 --> 00:20:53.460
And I think Terrence has been extremely clever because he's not

430
00:20:53.460 --> 00:20:56.759
thinking, I'll run up this for an hour, like 60 year old man who's

431
00:20:56.759 --> 00:20:58.740
seen the world and it's not going to be bothered by anything that

432
00:20:58.740 --> 00:20:59.220
I tell him.

433
00:20:59.220 --> 00:21:01.500
I've still got to keep the younger readers in mind.

434
00:21:01.559 --> 00:21:06.180
And also, sometimes the person who might get tortured is ace, you

435
00:21:06.180 --> 00:21:09.359
know, this is a young woman, so that would be a bit, you know, not

436
00:21:09.359 --> 00:21:09.660
on.

437
00:21:09.720 --> 00:21:12.359
So what he does is he keeps torture off screen.

438
00:21:12.420 --> 00:21:15.960
He positions us before torture.

439
00:21:16.019 --> 00:21:18.119
So the doctor and I are sitting in their cell and they can hear

440
00:21:18.119 --> 00:21:21.000
these terrible noises off and the doctors explain, look, this is

441
00:21:21.000 --> 00:21:22.380
just a psychological softening up.

442
00:21:22.440 --> 00:21:25.140
So he actually takes a scare away for the reader as well as for

443
00:21:25.140 --> 00:21:25.559
ace.

444
00:21:25.680 --> 00:21:28.980
And then later, uh, Hemmings tells Ace all the lovely things he

445
00:21:28.980 --> 00:21:31.259
would like to do with her, but he never gets the chat.

446
00:21:31.319 --> 00:21:35.279
So it's there, that threat, that Nazi threat is there.

447
00:21:35.339 --> 00:21:37.500
But it's not played out on screen.

448
00:21:37.559 --> 00:21:40.319
I mean, the Holocaust has not played out in the novel either, if

449
00:21:40.319 --> 00:21:42.180
that's, that has to be kept off screen.

450
00:21:42.240 --> 00:21:46.500
Otherwise, it's completely incompatible to have, even now these

451
00:21:46.500 --> 00:21:50.279
days we have, what are they called now where there's a historical

452
00:21:50.279 --> 00:21:51.119
event that cannot be changed?

453
00:21:51.180 --> 00:21:53.759
Fixed point in time.

454
00:21:53.819 --> 00:21:56.640
We have those now so that we can all relax about that.

455
00:21:56.700 --> 00:21:58.500
But we don't have them in 1991.

456
00:21:58.680 --> 00:22:00.660
So if the doctor turns up and there's Nazis around.

457
00:22:00.720 --> 00:22:02.819
He has to defeat them and prevent World War II and prevent the

458
00:22:02.819 --> 00:22:03.240
whole.

459
00:22:03.299 --> 00:22:03.779
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

460
00:22:03.900 --> 00:22:04.500
He just starts.

461
00:22:04.559 --> 00:22:06.960
And this is simply not an option to change history like that.

462
00:22:07.019 --> 00:22:11.640
And also, comic book versions of Nazis are as old as the hills.

463
00:22:11.700 --> 00:22:14.700
I mean, look at, say, the Indiana Jones trilogy, where, you know

464
00:22:14.700 --> 00:22:17.579
Indiana Jones comes up and has Hitler sign the book that will show

465
00:22:17.579 --> 00:22:18.720
him where the Holy Grail is.

466
00:22:18.779 --> 00:22:21.839
I think you'll find that was kneebore from the planet.

467
00:22:22.259 --> 00:22:24.240
Absolutely was.

468
00:22:24.299 --> 00:22:27.480
Michael Shed doing his best Hitler for the 4th time.

469
00:22:27.599 --> 00:22:28.980
So good.

470
00:22:28.980 --> 00:22:33.119
Whereas you can't include something like the Holocaust in a Doctor

471
00:22:33.119 --> 00:22:36.599
Who story because there's just no entertainment value, you know, at

472
00:22:36.599 --> 00:22:36.779
all.

473
00:22:36.839 --> 00:22:40.079
You can't infantilize the audience by turning that into an

474
00:22:40.079 --> 00:22:41.160
adventure story in any way.

475
00:22:41.220 --> 00:22:44.759
I think that's why we meet Mr. Gold at the beginning, that we're

476
00:22:44.759 --> 00:22:47.279
going to gesture in that direction, but we're not going to go any

477
00:22:47.279 --> 00:22:47.579
further.

478
00:22:47.640 --> 00:22:48.539
Yeah.

479
00:22:48.539 --> 00:22:49.200
Yeah.

480
00:22:49.259 --> 00:22:52.680
There's some anti-Semitic rhetoric, which is described or

481
00:22:52.680 --> 00:22:56.940
mentioned in the description of the big rally in Nuremberg, but we

482
00:22:56.940 --> 00:22:58.440
don't hear it so much.

483
00:22:59.160 --> 00:23:01.380
And everything else kind of happens off screen.

484
00:23:01.440 --> 00:23:04.920
And also there's Dr. Krieg's Lightest library, which Ace gets

485
00:23:04.920 --> 00:23:08.640
drugged in where you've got all of the Aryan, the pro-Aryan

486
00:23:08.640 --> 00:23:12.839
writing, and Terence takes great pains to talk about how dirty and

487
00:23:12.839 --> 00:23:16.019
awful Ace feel surrounded by something they've been committed to

488
00:23:16.019 --> 00:23:16.799
literature like that.

489
00:23:16.859 --> 00:23:19.079
Yeah, yeah, that's really interesting, isn't it?

490
00:23:19.200 --> 00:23:20.819
Because now it's the manosphere.

491
00:23:23.940 --> 00:23:27.599
I mean, the thing is that Ace, you know, has encountered racism

492
00:23:27.599 --> 00:23:33.480
and we had that speech in Ghostlight...

493
00:23:33.539 --> 00:23:34.440
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

494
00:23:34.500 --> 00:23:35.759
And that even gets alluded to.

495
00:23:35.819 --> 00:23:39.420
So she's aware of it, but it's here where it's actually committed

496
00:23:39.420 --> 00:23:42.539
to writing as if people are kind of proud of it.

497
00:23:43.140 --> 00:23:47.759
And people, you know, who think and read are committed to these

498
00:23:47.759 --> 00:23:48.539
ideas.

499
00:23:48.599 --> 00:23:49.859
Given some kind of serious consideration.

500
00:23:49.980 --> 00:23:51.000
Yeah, yeah.

501
00:23:51.059 --> 00:23:54.119
That's interesting, actually, that it's booked in particular that

502
00:23:54.119 --> 00:23:57.480
come in for this sort of execration. in a book.

503
00:23:57.539 --> 00:23:59.819
It's almost like Terrence is saying, there are things.

504
00:23:59.880 --> 00:24:02.400
I'm not going to talk about because they are too disgusting.

505
00:24:02.460 --> 00:24:05.220
Yeah, but they are in other books and I know about it.

506
00:24:05.400 --> 00:24:08.039
It's by Malcolm Hulk.

507
00:24:10.859 --> 00:24:15.660
One thing I found interesting, like when I read this as a kid, like

508
00:24:15.660 --> 00:24:20.279
19, I think, 20, um, was there there had been no real

509
00:24:20.279 --> 00:24:26.220
investigation of the history of Hitler and Nazis, which, if you

510
00:24:26.220 --> 00:24:30.779
watch certain channels, like SBS, for instance, people of my age

511
00:24:30.779 --> 00:24:34.680
seem to be obsessed with, like the rise of the Nazis, how it

512
00:24:34.680 --> 00:24:34.920
happened.

513
00:24:35.039 --> 00:24:36.059
Like, it's a constant thing.

514
00:24:36.119 --> 00:24:39.779
But this was the 1st time I think I'd ever read all of it put in

515
00:24:39.779 --> 00:24:40.259
that order.

516
00:24:40.319 --> 00:24:44.519
Like, and for a lot of this book is Terrence Dick's writing

517
00:24:44.519 --> 00:24:49.559
historical fiction about the rise of Hitler, how it happened, like

518
00:24:49.559 --> 00:24:54.660
you know, the various points at which the war started, you know

519
00:24:54.660 --> 00:24:56.220
going to Dunkirk, all that kind of thing.

520
00:24:56.279 --> 00:25:00.720
And, yeah, I think that's his main concern and trying to jam in

521
00:25:00.720 --> 00:25:04.740
the other bits of the Doctor Whoisms, I feel like a last minute

522
00:25:04.740 --> 00:25:05.160
thing.

523
00:25:05.160 --> 00:25:07.200
He's like, oh, yeah, I've got to have the doctor there, an ace

524
00:25:07.200 --> 00:25:10.799
turn up, but mainly he seems to be concerned about writing the

525
00:25:10.799 --> 00:25:12.119
history of Hitler.

526
00:25:12.180 --> 00:25:15.900
It's really funny too because there's 2 levels of Doctor Whoness

527
00:25:15.900 --> 00:25:17.880
involved in this story.

528
00:25:17.940 --> 00:25:21.180
And one is that it's a sequel to the war games.

529
00:25:21.240 --> 00:25:25.799
And we observed a few weeks ago that the War Games wasn't really

530
00:25:25.799 --> 00:25:27.839
allowed to do World War II.

531
00:25:27.900 --> 00:25:31.319
No, it was yeah, too soon and kind of too serious.

532
00:25:31.380 --> 00:25:34.980
And so the latest war that it can do is World War one.

533
00:25:35.039 --> 00:25:38.339
And so he makes it a sequel to the war games.

534
00:25:38.339 --> 00:25:42.420
And he even comments on the premise of the war games and has the

535
00:25:42.420 --> 00:25:45.599
war chiefs say, actually, that was a ridiculously overcomplicated

536
00:25:45.599 --> 00:25:46.259
plot.

537
00:25:46.319 --> 00:25:50.220
And I could have just got the Nazis to take over the galaxy and it

538
00:25:50.220 --> 00:25:50.819
would have been fine.

539
00:25:50.880 --> 00:25:53.700
And this is the 4 episode version, not the 10th.

540
00:25:54.180 --> 00:25:59.220
I don't know. the bit in alternate universe. feels like a couple

541
00:25:59.220 --> 00:25:59.700
of episodes.

542
00:26:00.240 --> 00:26:03.900
And then, of course, there's the timeworm.

543
00:26:03.900 --> 00:26:11.099
And so the timeworm is trapped in Hitler's mind and unable to do

544
00:26:11.099 --> 00:26:11.700
anything.

545
00:26:11.759 --> 00:26:17.099
Yeah. and the people in the other Doctor Who plot in the war chief

546
00:26:17.099 --> 00:26:19.200
plot are aware of it but don't know what it is.

547
00:26:19.259 --> 00:26:23.400
And so I think it's his way of containing the timeworm so he

548
00:26:23.400 --> 00:26:25.019
doesn't have to do a timeworm story.

549
00:26:25.079 --> 00:26:28.740
He wants to do a sequel to the war games, but even more than that

550
00:26:28.740 --> 00:26:31.019
he wants to write about World War II.

551
00:26:31.079 --> 00:26:35.099
And so he does a great job of making it a sequel to the war

552
00:26:35.099 --> 00:26:35.460
games.

553
00:26:35.519 --> 00:26:37.079
That seems like the obvious thing to do.

554
00:26:37.200 --> 00:26:40.500
And then he gets to put the timeworm to one side.

555
00:26:40.559 --> 00:26:44.400
So it can be dealt with in the italics chapter at the beginning.

556
00:26:44.460 --> 00:26:46.920
And then in the coder at the end.

557
00:26:47.099 --> 00:26:50.519
That's clever if you're going to have the timeworm change history

558
00:26:50.519 --> 00:26:52.440
and make the Nazis win.

559
00:26:52.500 --> 00:26:55.440
You are sort of thinking like, do we have scenes with Hitler and

560
00:26:55.440 --> 00:26:56.940
the time where I'm shaking hands?

561
00:26:56.940 --> 00:27:01.440
But the idea, I liked the fact that the timeworm is present in

562
00:27:01.440 --> 00:27:05.220
Hitler's mind, that this is, she's trapped in the mind of a

563
00:27:05.220 --> 00:27:05.640
madman.

564
00:27:05.880 --> 00:27:10.380
She gives him a little bit of extra power and he's a little bit

565
00:27:10.380 --> 00:27:13.380
more charismatic and convincing and what have you, but she isn't

566
00:27:13.380 --> 00:27:15.779
the one going, I will now make the Nazis win.

567
00:27:15.839 --> 00:27:16.380
Yes.

568
00:27:16.440 --> 00:27:20.519
So, you know, it eventually does end up in Britain getting

569
00:27:20.519 --> 00:27:22.440
conquered in the alternative timeline.

570
00:27:22.500 --> 00:27:23.880
It's enough to cause that.

571
00:27:23.940 --> 00:27:27.480
But it's not simple cause and the fact that the timeworm says now

572
00:27:27.480 --> 00:27:28.859
now the Nazis will win.

573
00:27:28.920 --> 00:27:33.119
I actually had a similar problem with wheat Zealand and the left

574
00:27:32.579 --> 00:27:35.700
handed hummingbird because somebody pointed this out to me when I

575
00:27:35.700 --> 00:27:37.200
was 2 thirds of the way through writing it, I think.

576
00:27:37.259 --> 00:27:40.680
It looked like New Zealand was responsible for violence in human

577
00:27:40.680 --> 00:27:41.099
history.

578
00:27:41.160 --> 00:27:43.380
The way that I was portraying it.

579
00:27:43.440 --> 00:27:45.480
I thought, oh my god, that's not what I'm trying to get at.

580
00:27:45.539 --> 00:27:48.720
I'm not trying to you know, give history an excuse like that.

581
00:27:48.779 --> 00:27:51.420
So I had to make certain things more clear.

582
00:27:51.480 --> 00:27:53.339
But I think that's what Terrence has done here.

583
00:27:53.400 --> 00:27:58.740
I mean, the funny thing is that, of course, the defeat of Britain

584
00:27:58.740 --> 00:28:02.819
is caused by the war chief rather than the timeworm.

585
00:28:02.880 --> 00:28:06.359
And the doctor says this doesn't smell like the time worm.

586
00:28:06.420 --> 00:28:10.259
You know, this is an intervention in history that doesn't feel

587
00:28:10.259 --> 00:28:12.359
like what the time worm would do.

588
00:28:12.420 --> 00:28:17.519
And there is a huge problem with kind of putting aliens in, um

589
00:28:17.519 --> 00:28:22.440
it's a problem that we managed to avoid, for instance, in Rosa, by

590
00:28:22.440 --> 00:28:26.519
having the villain be a human being for a start, just a racist

591
00:28:26.519 --> 00:28:27.240
white guy.

592
00:28:27.299 --> 00:28:32.759
And by keeping Rosa away from any sort of ridiculous science

593
00:28:32.759 --> 00:28:34.500
fiction nonsense in the episode.

594
00:28:34.559 --> 00:28:39.420
And here, I think, making Hitler a little bit more charismatic

595
00:28:39.420 --> 00:28:44.039
because clearly everyone imagines what Terrence is doing, one of

596
00:28:44.039 --> 00:28:46.380
the things that he wants to make clear is that Hitler was actually

597
00:28:46.380 --> 00:28:52.079
hopeless and incompetent, and that that was a good thing.

598
00:28:52.140 --> 00:28:57.180
And, you know, coming after Trump's 1st presidency, again, where

599
00:28:57.180 --> 00:29:01.019
he was just an he's just an idiot and surrounded by people who are

600
00:29:01.019 --> 00:29:01.859
also idiots.

601
00:29:01.920 --> 00:29:04.559
And so he's an incompetent dictator.

602
00:29:04.619 --> 00:29:11.160
We don't need the timeworm to explain why Hitler was such a

603
00:29:11.160 --> 00:29:14.759
convincing orator despite being so bad at it because we've been

604
00:29:14.759 --> 00:29:16.680
living through it for the last 10 years.

605
00:29:16.740 --> 00:29:20.220
It struck me a little bit that there was conflicting instructions

606
00:29:20.220 --> 00:29:20.519
here.

607
00:29:20.579 --> 00:29:22.319
You know, we've always talked about sort of the one more draft

608
00:29:22.319 --> 00:29:24.539
kind of theory of things.

609
00:29:24.599 --> 00:29:27.839
I think the plot of this could have had another draft because

610
00:29:27.839 --> 00:29:33.720
they're a bit conflicting, the timeworm, and the warlords, one of

611
00:29:33.720 --> 00:29:37.740
them should have created the situation whereby Hitler's oratory is

612
00:29:37.740 --> 00:29:40.079
a little bit more powerful, and then he doesn't make stupid

613
00:29:40.079 --> 00:29:42.299
decisions, so the invasion of Britain happens.

614
00:29:42.299 --> 00:29:46.619
To have 2 of them, and one of them sidelined seems a bit muddled

615
00:29:46.619 --> 00:29:46.920
to me.

616
00:29:46.980 --> 00:29:50.819
Yeah, I think it is just because he's got a brief, you know, he's

617
00:29:50.819 --> 00:29:55.559
had to shoehorn in the arc staff and he's done it as ungraciously

618
00:29:55.559 --> 00:29:57.180
as possible, I think.

619
00:29:57.599 --> 00:30:00.240
I want to ask Kate.

620
00:30:00.299 --> 00:30:05.039
Was the timeline on submitting, once you'd been accepted, was that

621
00:30:05.039 --> 00:30:05.579
really tight?

622
00:30:05.640 --> 00:30:08.099
Was that a tight turnaround to get a draft in?

623
00:30:08.160 --> 00:30:09.900
Almost always, yes.

624
00:30:10.019 --> 00:30:14.940
Lie-handed Hummingbird was written over 9 months and you can tell

625
00:30:14.940 --> 00:30:17.339
the difference between that book and later books that I wrote

626
00:30:17.339 --> 00:30:19.259
because they would be more like 3 or 4 months.

627
00:30:19.319 --> 00:30:19.980
Yeah.

628
00:30:19.980 --> 00:30:21.059
So yeah, it's pretty quick.

629
00:30:21.119 --> 00:30:22.680
Yeah, and knowing Terrence.

630
00:30:24.240 --> 00:30:26.880
They probably could produce.

631
00:30:26.880 --> 00:30:27.420
Yeah, yes.

632
00:30:27.420 --> 00:30:28.619
Publishable material.

633
00:30:28.680 --> 00:30:31.980
Yeah, without needing a 2nd draft, but wouldn't it be great if he

634
00:30:31.980 --> 00:30:32.640
did take one?

635
00:30:33.420 --> 00:30:36.839
I mean, I actually don't mind...

636
00:30:36.839 --> 00:30:41.460
It's a little bit like the way that the Reebus operation makes fun

637
00:30:41.460 --> 00:30:42.900
of its arc story.

638
00:30:42.960 --> 00:30:46.380
It's just like there's been over the heretic being told that there

639
00:30:46.380 --> 00:30:51.359
aren't godlike forces warring over the planet in a story that's

640
00:30:51.359 --> 00:30:55.019
entirely part of an arc that is about godlike forces warrior in

641
00:30:55.019 --> 00:30:55.500
the universe.

642
00:30:55.559 --> 00:30:58.920
And so Terrence is kind of going, yes, there is going to be a

643
00:30:58.920 --> 00:31:01.740
change in history, but psych, it's not the time where I'm doing it

644
00:31:01.740 --> 00:31:02.039
at all.

645
00:31:02.099 --> 00:31:04.259
It's my made-up guy.

646
00:31:04.859 --> 00:31:09.059
I think what Adam was saying about the fact that Terrence really

647
00:31:09.059 --> 00:31:10.920
just wants to talk about the 2nd world.

648
00:31:11.339 --> 00:31:15.839
I think that's right because I think maybe the 1st half of the

649
00:31:15.839 --> 00:31:19.799
book is the more successful part and all of that alternate history

650
00:31:19.799 --> 00:31:20.700
stuff in Britain.

651
00:31:20.759 --> 00:31:22.500
It feels like Terrence is really enjoying that.

652
00:31:22.619 --> 00:31:26.700
So going from the Festival of Britain to the Savoy Hotel occupied

653
00:31:26.700 --> 00:31:30.480
by, you know, the Nazi hierarchy to like the resistance calf.

654
00:31:30.539 --> 00:31:32.940
And by the way, oddly for Terence.

655
00:31:33.000 --> 00:31:34.740
He gets the directions wrong.

656
00:31:34.799 --> 00:31:37.740
When he says you go from the Festival of Britain, over Waterloo

657
00:31:37.740 --> 00:31:40.380
Bridge, left onto the Strand, and right into the Savoy.

658
00:31:40.440 --> 00:31:40.920
It's not.

659
00:31:40.980 --> 00:31:43.079
It over Waterloo Bridge, left on the strand and left.

660
00:31:43.680 --> 00:31:47.039
Very unusual for Terrence. alternative universe.

661
00:31:47.279 --> 00:31:50.099
Alternative map topography.

662
00:31:50.160 --> 00:31:52.559
Maybe the Nazis moved the door.

663
00:31:52.859 --> 00:31:55.259
Move to the Savoy, yeah.

664
00:31:55.319 --> 00:31:57.000
The tunnel now.

665
00:31:57.059 --> 00:31:59.640
Those rotters. put it past them.

666
00:31:59.700 --> 00:32:00.720
How dare they?

667
00:32:03.779 --> 00:32:07.980
But I think you can tell because those early chapters are far and

668
00:32:07.980 --> 00:32:09.000
away the best.

669
00:32:09.059 --> 00:32:10.680
They're very evocative.

670
00:32:10.740 --> 00:32:14.579
So those scenes traipsing around the dismal festival of Britain

671
00:32:14.579 --> 00:32:19.680
with like only old people there and children. paints a really

672
00:32:19.680 --> 00:32:22.500
bleak picture and Terence, I think, revels in it.

673
00:32:22.559 --> 00:32:26.579
Once the Doctor Who stuff gets in the way and you're off to a

674
00:32:26.579 --> 00:32:30.599
castle in Germany somewhere with kind of zombies running around

675
00:32:30.720 --> 00:32:33.720
and the war chief has suddenly turned up and now he's being

676
00:32:33.720 --> 00:32:34.740
tereptilized.

677
00:32:34.799 --> 00:32:37.740
Yeah, I think maybe the sheen comes off a little bit.

678
00:32:37.799 --> 00:32:40.319
There's wonderful descriptions of food in that book.

679
00:32:40.380 --> 00:32:41.279
Oh yeah.

680
00:32:41.339 --> 00:32:45.539
Everybody's starving and occupied Britain, but they keep getting

681
00:32:45.539 --> 00:32:49.380
bread and cheese and cold meats and these incredible descriptions

682
00:32:49.380 --> 00:32:50.099
of the menu.

683
00:32:50.160 --> 00:32:52.140
Even though they're prisoners.

684
00:32:52.200 --> 00:32:54.299
That stuff talking about tea.

685
00:32:54.359 --> 00:32:56.279
Oh yeah, the her set's tea tastes awful.

686
00:32:56.339 --> 00:32:59.579
And then you get the real tea at the end when you get to the real

687
00:32:59.579 --> 00:33:01.259
festival of Britain. you're like, oh, that's right.

688
00:33:01.319 --> 00:33:02.039
The tea's good again.

689
00:33:02.099 --> 00:33:05.339
Even though there was rationing and it probably was like 4

690
00:33:05.339 --> 00:33:05.640
leaves.

691
00:33:05.700 --> 00:33:06.900
They do mention it, though.

692
00:33:06.960 --> 00:33:08.400
They do mention the rationing.

693
00:33:08.700 --> 00:33:12.299
Yeah, there is that sort of Terrence thing.

694
00:33:12.359 --> 00:33:15.660
We've talked about, there's a kind of vague sort of liberalism and

695
00:33:15.660 --> 00:33:18.660
a sort of soft leftness to his writing.

696
00:33:18.720 --> 00:33:22.259
And so there's that moment where he says, everywhere in the world

697
00:33:22.259 --> 00:33:25.380
wherever you are, the people on top are doing very nicely.

698
00:33:25.440 --> 00:33:25.920
Thank you.

699
00:33:26.700 --> 00:33:29.880
And he makes that sort of very clear.

700
00:33:29.940 --> 00:33:30.660
Yeah.

701
00:33:30.660 --> 00:33:35.099
I have a problem with, with, we can't change history, and the

702
00:33:35.099 --> 00:33:38.039
whole thing is that we have to make World War 2 happen.

703
00:33:38.039 --> 00:33:42.359
And it is on a bigger scale. what happens in Rosa, you know, our

704
00:33:42.359 --> 00:33:45.660
job in Rosa is to ensure that a racism happens.

705
00:33:45.720 --> 00:33:50.339
And I think part of the problem with it is that it makes the

706
00:33:50.339 --> 00:33:52.500
doctor seem powerless.

707
00:33:52.500 --> 00:33:58.319
And it also makes up a rule that the doctor has to adhere to that

708
00:33:58.319 --> 00:34:02.160
doesn't resemble any actual kind of moral rule.

709
00:34:02.220 --> 00:34:06.599
So the idea that we can't change history seems to me to be

710
00:34:06.599 --> 00:34:07.140
ridiculous.

711
00:34:07.200 --> 00:34:09.360
There are certain things that if you go back in time you're not

712
00:34:09.360 --> 00:34:13.320
allowed to do those things, but you can do them normally.

713
00:34:13.380 --> 00:34:16.019
I mean, it would have taken just a line.

714
00:34:16.079 --> 00:34:19.500
Like, you know how there's, obviously this is about World War 2

715
00:34:19.500 --> 00:34:23.280
but it's said about the Daleks, like, you know, out of such horror

716
00:34:23.280 --> 00:34:24.539
some good will come.

717
00:34:24.599 --> 00:34:28.260
And, you know, it just could have been bringing up penicillin.

718
00:34:28.320 --> 00:34:29.699
That wouldn't have happened without the war.

719
00:34:29.760 --> 00:34:35.519
Like, or, you know, radar or any of the 100s of things that were

720
00:34:35.519 --> 00:34:39.719
invented cryptography, like all of that stuff that came out of the

721
00:34:39.719 --> 00:34:42.719
war because of the necessity of fighting the Nazis and the

722
00:34:42.719 --> 00:34:48.059
Japanese and trying to innovate and the innovations that came from

723
00:34:48.059 --> 00:34:49.019
it.

724
00:34:49.079 --> 00:34:53.579
But yeah, because necessity being the mother of invention, you

725
00:34:53.579 --> 00:34:55.679
could easily just drop a line in.

726
00:34:55.739 --> 00:34:58.500
Then the doctor's like, we can't do this because then we won't

727
00:34:58.500 --> 00:35:03.179
have X, Y, Z. To be fair, the one thing that he does do is he says

728
00:35:03.179 --> 00:35:05.820
it's the war that wipes the Nazis out.

729
00:35:05.880 --> 00:35:09.119
And that's why I don't think we necessarily need qualification

730
00:35:09.119 --> 00:35:09.480
about it.

731
00:35:09.539 --> 00:35:12.239
I agree with you to an extent in some circumstances.

732
00:35:12.300 --> 00:35:16.079
But I think in this one and especially from a very British point

733
00:35:16.079 --> 00:35:16.800
of view.

734
00:35:16.860 --> 00:35:22.019
World War 2 and stopping the Nazis. is kind of the shining gem in

735
00:35:22.019 --> 00:35:22.739
British history.

736
00:35:22.800 --> 00:35:26.699
It's the one moment where they actually protected the world from

737
00:35:26.699 --> 00:35:30.719
something dreadful and really were the last 4 standing in their

738
00:35:30.719 --> 00:35:34.019
way for possibly years until Americans came aboard.

739
00:35:34.079 --> 00:35:38.940
And I think just the fact that you can point to World War 2 as a

740
00:35:38.940 --> 00:35:39.360
just war.

741
00:35:39.420 --> 00:35:43.139
It was stopping a terrible evil is really all you need in this

742
00:35:43.139 --> 00:35:43.320
situation.

743
00:35:43.380 --> 00:35:44.159
Yeah.

744
00:35:44.159 --> 00:35:46.260
It's why it's better than World War one.

745
00:35:46.260 --> 00:35:50.880
And, you know, the war game shows a fairly healthy suspicion of

746
00:35:50.880 --> 00:35:52.920
what's going on in World War one, I think.

747
00:36:03.360 --> 00:36:06.599
It's why Waters of Mars is so ridiculous.

748
00:36:06.659 --> 00:36:10.079
It's kind of like, I mustn't save these people because someone

749
00:36:10.079 --> 00:36:12.900
will have to re-edit their Wikipedia pages.

750
00:36:13.139 --> 00:36:15.239
I was killed on Mars.

751
00:36:15.300 --> 00:36:16.440
Now I shot myself in my home.

752
00:36:16.500 --> 00:36:19.559
I'm sure history will just go on. rails after that.

753
00:36:19.619 --> 00:36:23.579
But you see, that's the counterexample, which proves the point, I

754
00:36:23.579 --> 00:36:25.980
think, because in the waters of Mars, they have to go to a great

755
00:36:25.980 --> 00:36:29.639
extent to tell you why it's so important that history doesn't get

756
00:36:29.639 --> 00:36:30.000
changed.

757
00:36:30.059 --> 00:36:32.940
Whereas we all know that the Nazis had to be stopped.

758
00:36:33.000 --> 00:36:34.199
Yes, yeah.

759
00:36:34.260 --> 00:36:39.179
And again, you know, why Ace can't kill Hitler in 1926 is the fear

760
00:36:39.179 --> 00:36:42.480
that someone competent might take over and would win the war

761
00:36:42.539 --> 00:36:43.559
spells that out.

762
00:36:43.679 --> 00:36:45.360
Yeah, yeah. really enjoyed that.

763
00:36:45.420 --> 00:36:49.559
I really enjoyed the idea that Hitler was completely useless and

764
00:36:49.559 --> 00:36:52.860
you know, they wouldn't have tried to fight a war on 2 fronts if

765
00:36:52.860 --> 00:36:55.559
he wasn't so megalomaniacal.

766
00:36:55.679 --> 00:36:55.980
Yeah.

767
00:36:55.980 --> 00:36:58.019
And he was also an anglophile.

768
00:36:58.079 --> 00:37:02.880
And so the fact that he halted his troops pushing the Allied

769
00:37:02.880 --> 00:37:06.480
forces into the sea at Dunkirk out of this kind of bizarre

770
00:37:06.480 --> 00:37:10.019
preoccupation with the fact that Britain might become friends with

771
00:37:10.019 --> 00:37:11.760
him might go, oh, okay, it's fine.

772
00:37:11.820 --> 00:37:15.059
That was always going to be madness, but that was him, and that

773
00:37:15.059 --> 00:37:17.820
was probably the key turning point where the Brits were able to

774
00:37:17.820 --> 00:37:19.860
save their forces and then fight on.

775
00:37:19.920 --> 00:37:20.639
Yeah.

776
00:37:20.699 --> 00:37:24.960
I mean, you know, who knows how close he was at that point to

777
00:37:24.960 --> 00:37:28.440
thinking, oh, I will be able to install a different king and

778
00:37:28.440 --> 00:37:29.639
they'll just do what I tell them.

779
00:37:29.760 --> 00:37:35.639
Like, yeah, I love time travel story set in World War II.

780
00:37:35.699 --> 00:37:39.420
Like one of my favourites is the Connie Willis books blackout and

781
00:37:39.420 --> 00:37:42.719
all clear, which take place throughout the whole of the blitz

782
00:37:42.719 --> 00:37:43.019
basically.

783
00:37:43.440 --> 00:37:45.780
Is it people going back in time?

784
00:37:45.840 --> 00:37:48.000
Yeah, they have to do a history practice at Oxford.

785
00:37:50.340 --> 00:37:52.619
I've heard of those.

786
00:37:52.679 --> 00:37:54.360
They're so great.

787
00:37:54.420 --> 00:37:56.940
But they get trapped there and they can't kind of get out and they

788
00:37:56.940 --> 00:37:58.079
meet Agatha Christie.

789
00:37:58.139 --> 00:38:02.159
She's dispensing pills at the hospital and, you know, they make

790
00:38:02.159 --> 00:38:05.820
these ridiculous ragamuffins in the East End and it's just lots of

791
00:38:05.820 --> 00:38:10.380
hiding in tube stations, but yeah, there's this constant idea of

792
00:38:10.380 --> 00:38:15.599
like you can't change anything because so much of what happens

793
00:38:15.599 --> 00:38:20.340
afterwards is because of this war. as awful as it is.

794
00:38:20.400 --> 00:38:21.599
It's just a constant thing.

795
00:38:21.659 --> 00:38:24.719
But I mean, you're not allowed when someone collapses on the

796
00:38:24.719 --> 00:38:28.320
street, you're not allowed to withhold 1st aid from them in case

797
00:38:28.320 --> 00:38:30.719
they grow up to become a dictator in the future.

798
00:38:30.780 --> 00:38:31.739
You know what I mean?

799
00:38:31.800 --> 00:38:35.039
Like we don't make moral decisions like that in practice.

800
00:38:35.219 --> 00:38:36.960
Maybe you don't.

801
00:38:40.619 --> 00:38:43.920
One thing I'll tell you one thing I really hate is the fact that

802
00:38:43.920 --> 00:38:45.000
I'm now living through history.

803
00:38:45.059 --> 00:38:45.960
I know.

804
00:38:46.800 --> 00:38:50.219
I always tell myself, Kate, you had 50 years of living through not

805
00:38:50.219 --> 00:38:50.699
history.

806
00:38:50.760 --> 00:38:54.300
Just peace, prosperity, lots of terrible things happening overseas

807
00:38:54.300 --> 00:38:56.340
but nothing happening to you and your family personally.

808
00:38:56.400 --> 00:38:59.639
And now I'm living through history, so I had only 50 years.

809
00:38:59.699 --> 00:39:03.000
Well, there's a reason that people talk about the post World War 2

810
00:39:03.000 --> 00:39:08.519
order, which held firm for 50 or 60 years, and made sure that

811
00:39:08.519 --> 00:39:11.039
there wasn't another worldwide conflict in that time.

812
00:39:11.099 --> 00:39:13.679
Of course, there was, you know, there was wars and there was

813
00:39:13.679 --> 00:39:15.599
skirmishers and there was terrible things which happened.

814
00:39:15.659 --> 00:39:18.659
But basically the order insured, a generally peaceful world.

815
00:39:19.260 --> 00:39:24.420
The way that Chris Eggleston's doctor talks about post-war Britain

816
00:39:24.420 --> 00:39:28.739
in the empty child, the doctor dances is just tremendous.

817
00:39:29.519 --> 00:39:32.099
I don't think Doctor Who's ever expressed it in quite that way

818
00:39:32.099 --> 00:39:33.179
before.

819
00:39:33.239 --> 00:39:34.079
Yeah.

820
00:39:34.139 --> 00:39:35.099
It's really sweet.

821
00:39:35.159 --> 00:39:37.199
It's, it's kind of weird.

822
00:39:37.260 --> 00:39:39.960
It feels weird going back to World War 2 because it was so banned

823
00:39:39.960 --> 00:39:41.099
for so long.

824
00:39:41.159 --> 00:39:43.860
Like, like when Cursor Fenwick came on.

825
00:39:43.980 --> 00:39:45.840
I was like, what, why have they been to World War 2 before?

826
00:39:45.900 --> 00:39:46.559
Yeah.

827
00:39:46.619 --> 00:39:47.880
And you go, oh, that's right.

828
00:39:47.940 --> 00:39:50.099
Because it was 20 years earlier when the show started.

829
00:39:50.159 --> 00:39:55.559
It even meant it takes great pains to avoid Germans as the enemies

830
00:39:55.559 --> 00:39:57.420
like Germany doesn't really play a pass in the story.

831
00:39:57.480 --> 00:39:59.940
No, but they're in the silver nemesis.

832
00:40:00.480 --> 00:40:02.820
They're modern Nazis.

833
00:40:02.880 --> 00:40:06.000
That sober addressing of the issue.

834
00:40:08.159 --> 00:40:10.920
Love a neo-Nazi in the 90s.

835
00:40:11.039 --> 00:40:12.960
They seem so deluded.

836
00:40:13.199 --> 00:40:15.780
We have them in government.

837
00:40:24.840 --> 00:40:30.780
I think the whole book is drafted with such economy and wit that

838
00:40:30.780 --> 00:40:32.219
it's impossible not to like it.

839
00:40:32.340 --> 00:40:36.179
I think as it goes on, there's possibly too much economy.

840
00:40:36.239 --> 00:40:39.300
I think Terrence is racing through his pleasures a little bit.

841
00:40:39.360 --> 00:40:43.079
And so you get an awful lot of touing and throwing and going from

842
00:40:43.079 --> 00:40:46.199
like escaping from places and going to new places and the doctor

843
00:40:46.199 --> 00:40:47.400
following Ace and all of that.

844
00:40:47.460 --> 00:40:51.300
And so it reads a little bit like an episode 3 of a TV story, you

845
00:40:51.300 --> 00:40:53.039
know, capture escape, capture escape.

846
00:40:53.099 --> 00:40:57.360
And there's certain scenes which I wanted there to be more of, like

847
00:40:57.360 --> 00:41:00.420
some confrontation scenes, those climactic scenes with the doctor

848
00:41:00.420 --> 00:41:04.440
and Hitler in the same room where the doctor is called a

849
00:41:04.440 --> 00:41:07.679
manipulating Hitler, but also is in the presence of this

850
00:41:07.679 --> 00:41:09.420
historical evil.

851
00:41:09.480 --> 00:41:11.760
I wanted more focus to be on that.

852
00:41:11.820 --> 00:41:14.519
And I think it's a slight case of diminishing returns as you go on

853
00:41:14.519 --> 00:41:17.579
ending up in a big battle with sort of, you know, a hunchback

854
00:41:17.579 --> 00:41:19.500
monster and his zombies at the castle.

855
00:41:19.559 --> 00:41:22.559
And so I think the 2nd half of the novel doesn't quite do justice

856
00:41:22.559 --> 00:41:23.280
to the first.

857
00:41:23.340 --> 00:41:28.559
But it's told with such panache and such easy reading that I think

858
00:41:28.559 --> 00:41:29.940
it's invaluable that we have it.

859
00:41:30.000 --> 00:41:30.719
Yeah.

860
00:41:30.719 --> 00:41:34.679
The other thing I find is that he's written it like it's a TV

861
00:41:34.679 --> 00:41:39.900
episode, like, oh, we'll just hang around outside this one cafe

862
00:41:39.900 --> 00:41:42.960
and look across there, and that can be some footage that was

863
00:41:42.960 --> 00:41:46.260
filmed earlier, and then we'll go and be in the Savoy Hotel, and

864
00:41:46.260 --> 00:41:49.619
we'll just be in one room, all 2 rooms, and that's it.

865
00:41:49.679 --> 00:41:52.500
And then they go to the castle and they're there for the rest of

866
00:41:52.500 --> 00:41:55.559
the time and that's in one or 2 rooms and it's like, you could

867
00:41:55.559 --> 00:41:56.099
have left.

868
00:41:56.159 --> 00:41:58.920
Like you could have had a chat in a car.

869
00:41:59.159 --> 00:42:02.099
But it all feels very state and stuff.

870
00:42:02.159 --> 00:42:05.400
I mean, to be fair, there are plenty of chats in cars.

871
00:42:05.460 --> 00:42:07.920
They're smoking it easy for the director.

872
00:42:08.039 --> 00:42:08.639
Exactly.

873
00:42:08.699 --> 00:42:10.079
But it's like...

874
00:42:10.079 --> 00:42:11.519
The director's me.

875
00:42:11.579 --> 00:42:13.079
That's right.

876
00:42:13.079 --> 00:42:14.699
Unlimited budget.

877
00:42:14.760 --> 00:42:15.659
Unlimited budget.

878
00:42:15.719 --> 00:42:18.960
And all I'm seeing is some hastily painted studio flat.

879
00:42:22.019 --> 00:42:25.079
We've been saying about the way Terrence tells a story and we've

880
00:42:25.079 --> 00:42:29.820
got this from way back in the War Games, but also in Robot and in

881
00:42:29.820 --> 00:42:34.019
Horror Fang Rock, that he's able to make new things happen.

882
00:42:34.079 --> 00:42:37.739
What we don't get is the doctor locked up in episode 3 like we do

883
00:42:37.739 --> 00:42:42.239
in the 80s in both robot and Horror Fang Rock.

884
00:42:42.300 --> 00:42:46.139
We have an enemy that has plans and that is doing different things

885
00:42:46.139 --> 00:42:50.280
and the doctor is kind of tracking that and responding to that.

886
00:42:50.340 --> 00:42:54.000
So new things happen, new elements, get introduced, and the story

887
00:42:54.000 --> 00:42:57.840
never feels like it's artificially keeping us away from the

888
00:42:57.840 --> 00:42:58.739
climax.

889
00:42:58.920 --> 00:43:05.400
But here, I got the impression that because he has a kind of

890
00:43:05.400 --> 00:43:12.539
didactic purpose, that the storytelling isn't as strong, and I do

891
00:43:12.539 --> 00:43:15.960
think that, for instance, going back to 1926 and having the doctor

892
00:43:15.960 --> 00:43:21.659
meet Hitler, is largely there so that the doctor can tell Ace, all

893
00:43:21.659 --> 00:43:22.380
of this staff.

894
00:43:22.440 --> 00:43:26.159
And I think Terence is aware that Ace is a companion is not like

895
00:43:26.159 --> 00:43:32.699
Sarah Jane or Joe, who grew up in a kind of, you know, after the

896
00:43:32.699 --> 00:43:35.519
Second World War, in the middle of the 20th century.

897
00:43:35.579 --> 00:43:39.780
And so he has the opportunity to tell the story of the 2nd World

898
00:43:39.780 --> 00:43:40.619
War to her.

899
00:43:40.679 --> 00:43:44.579
And so it seemed to me that there was a lot more exposition.

900
00:43:44.699 --> 00:43:48.420
Normally Terence sets things up that are straightforward and

901
00:43:48.420 --> 00:43:53.159
comprehensible and don't require a great deal of scaffolding, but

902
00:43:53.159 --> 00:43:56.400
here because he really wants to inform us about a thing, he does

903
00:43:56.400 --> 00:44:00.119
spend a lot of time just telling Ace the background.

904
00:44:00.179 --> 00:44:02.400
The narrative pauses a fair bit.

905
00:44:02.460 --> 00:44:02.940
Yeah.

906
00:44:02.940 --> 00:44:06.480
Well, just even that even that structure where it's 1951 and then

907
00:44:06.480 --> 00:44:10.920
we go to 1926 and then we go to 1939 and all of that sort of

908
00:44:10.920 --> 00:44:11.159
thing.

909
00:44:11.219 --> 00:44:15.059
That is the sort of whistle stop tour of the 2nd World War, which

910
00:44:15.059 --> 00:44:18.059
is entirely because Terrence wants to tell us about the things.

911
00:44:18.119 --> 00:44:24.059
If he sets it in 1943 or something like that, then he doesn't get

912
00:44:24.059 --> 00:44:26.400
to do all of the other things that he wants to include.

913
00:44:26.639 --> 00:44:28.019
Yeah.

914
00:44:28.079 --> 00:44:33.539
And and a McCoy era story really should be all in 1943.

915
00:44:33.539 --> 00:44:34.679
And then you find out.

916
00:44:34.739 --> 00:44:36.599
He's popped back.

917
00:44:36.659 --> 00:44:37.980
He like, I'm just going down the shops.

918
00:44:37.980 --> 00:44:41.880
And then he goes to 26 and it goes to 39 and comes back and you

919
00:44:41.880 --> 00:44:44.219
find out he's sewn all these things in.

920
00:44:44.280 --> 00:44:47.820
And, you know, maybe that is the freedom that he has now that he's

921
00:44:47.820 --> 00:44:51.119
writing a book rather than doing a television story that he's not

922
00:44:51.119 --> 00:44:54.780
going to go for that dramatic unity of place or unity of time.

923
00:44:54.840 --> 00:44:59.579
He can be free of that in a way that you can't be, I guess, in a

924
00:44:59.579 --> 00:45:01.619
four-part story or a six-part story.

925
00:45:01.679 --> 00:45:04.800
I mean, it does remind me slightly of Silver Nemesis, where the

926
00:45:04.800 --> 00:45:08.940
doctrinates just pop around all over the place, back in time

927
00:45:08.940 --> 00:45:12.119
forwards in time to London, to Windsor.

928
00:45:12.179 --> 00:45:14.699
Like, and so it does ape that.

929
00:45:14.760 --> 00:45:18.659
But yeah, I think Terence is using the structure so that he

930
00:45:18.659 --> 00:45:21.719
doesn't just have to sit down with Ace on some stairs, like in

931
00:45:21.719 --> 00:45:24.300
remembrance of the Daleks part 3 and explain what's going on.

932
00:45:24.360 --> 00:45:26.760
They actually go there, which is what you can do in a book.

933
00:45:26.820 --> 00:45:29.400
Yeah, I mean, that's the Moffat style thing, isn't it?

934
00:45:29.460 --> 00:45:33.059
Like, why would I have a flashback in this story that has a time

935
00:45:33.059 --> 00:45:34.139
machine in it?

936
00:45:34.199 --> 00:45:36.420
where you would just go back in time and do it.

937
00:45:36.480 --> 00:45:39.239
And so he's definitely doing that here.

938
00:45:39.360 --> 00:45:42.719
I also have like this, I don't know, I had this thing in my head

939
00:45:42.719 --> 00:45:46.860
of like, he's gone, I've written this normal sized Doctor Who

940
00:45:46.860 --> 00:45:47.280
book.

941
00:45:47.340 --> 00:45:50.039
My novelisations are usually quite slim.

942
00:45:50.400 --> 00:45:54.300
And then he's gone, oh, how do I fill up the rest of it?

943
00:45:54.420 --> 00:45:55.860
It's like writing a thesis.

944
00:45:55.920 --> 00:45:58.980
It's like you've gone, I've got I've got this much.

945
00:45:59.039 --> 00:46:04.380
I'm going to do 4 chapters of explaining all of my terms.

946
00:46:05.699 --> 00:46:09.179
Terrence, that is, let's explain Hitler.

947
00:46:09.840 --> 00:46:14.519
For 80% of the book and then like 20% can just be some Doctor

948
00:46:14.519 --> 00:46:15.539
Hoopizo at the end.

949
00:46:15.599 --> 00:46:20.099
Well, I mean, maybe the 1951 stuff is the least essential part of

950
00:46:20.099 --> 00:46:21.059
it, isn't it?

951
00:46:21.119 --> 00:46:23.519
But he's having fun riding fun, though.

952
00:46:23.579 --> 00:46:24.360
Yeah, yeah.

953
00:46:24.420 --> 00:46:25.860
He's showing us the stakes.

954
00:46:25.920 --> 00:46:26.340
That's fair.

955
00:46:26.460 --> 00:46:27.179
Yeah, yes, yeah.

956
00:46:27.239 --> 00:46:27.599
That's true.

957
00:46:27.659 --> 00:46:28.199
That's true.

958
00:46:28.260 --> 00:46:30.239
And then we go back to a proper 1951.

959
00:46:30.360 --> 00:46:34.380
Yeah, this is this is the brief opening of the door in Pyramids of

960
00:46:34.380 --> 00:46:34.800
Mars.

961
00:46:38.039 --> 00:46:39.780
He's just fleshed it out a bit.

962
00:46:41.159 --> 00:46:45.719
You know, I think we can overlook the importance of this book to

963
00:46:45.719 --> 00:46:46.619
the new adventures.

964
00:46:46.679 --> 00:46:50.460
Because, obviously, I think it should have been first, but

965
00:46:50.460 --> 00:46:53.820
Timeworm Genesis first, he did not receive a good...

966
00:46:53.820 --> 00:46:55.380
No, it was not well received.

967
00:46:55.440 --> 00:46:58.079
I popped onto the timescales review site, and I sampled the

968
00:46:58.079 --> 00:47:00.539
reactions timeworm Genesis, and there's some samples.

969
00:47:00.599 --> 00:47:02.460
Infamous and divisive.

970
00:47:02.519 --> 00:47:05.760
Reeks of self-importance, yet feels like fan fiction.

971
00:47:05.820 --> 00:47:09.360
The worst soft reboot this franchise ever spawned.

972
00:47:09.420 --> 00:47:10.139
Ouch.

973
00:47:10.139 --> 00:47:10.679
Oh my god.

974
00:47:10.800 --> 00:47:13.980
Now, none of those criticisms could be applied to Exodus.

975
00:47:14.039 --> 00:47:16.980
And I think if this book hadn't done what it does so well.

976
00:47:17.039 --> 00:47:21.840
If it hadn't kind of swooped in and rescued or put the train back

977
00:47:21.840 --> 00:47:24.780
on the rails, I think the new adventures could have been

978
00:47:24.780 --> 00:47:28.860
permanently tarred in fandom's eyes as something that was too

979
00:47:28.860 --> 00:47:29.460
different.

980
00:47:29.579 --> 00:47:32.280
What this book is is permission.

981
00:47:32.340 --> 00:47:35.460
It's permission for the new adventures to then go off and do

982
00:47:35.460 --> 00:47:36.059
different things.

983
00:47:36.119 --> 00:47:40.739
It's permission for Revelation 2 books later or transit half a

984
00:47:40.739 --> 00:47:44.219
dozen books later to do their thing because what it's saying is

985
00:47:44.219 --> 00:47:44.940
that's a choice.

986
00:47:45.179 --> 00:47:49.860
It's saying to a certain section of fandom, we give you permission

987
00:47:49.860 --> 00:47:52.800
to come aboard because we can do this kind of story and this kind

988
00:47:52.800 --> 00:47:56.519
of story that you love will still be part of the fiction.

989
00:47:56.579 --> 00:47:57.900
But also we can do these other things.

990
00:47:57.960 --> 00:47:59.159
So come and sample these.

991
00:47:59.219 --> 00:48:03.179
I think it's incredibly important to the new adventures that this

992
00:48:03.179 --> 00:48:03.840
book exists.

993
00:48:03.900 --> 00:48:08.099
Also, they're not all going to be sexy. don't panic Even though

994
00:48:08.099 --> 00:48:10.500
they tried to do that with the cover and you're like, why does Ace

995
00:48:10.500 --> 00:48:12.659
look like she's about to be sacrificed as a virgin?

996
00:48:13.260 --> 00:48:15.960
It's the virgin new adventure.

997
00:48:29.099 --> 00:48:33.420
Can I circle back one more time to Terrence's writing and what it

998
00:48:33.420 --> 00:48:34.260
meant to me as a child?

999
00:48:34.320 --> 00:48:35.039
Yeah.

1000
00:48:35.099 --> 00:48:37.800
I particularly want to talk about the Pyramids of Mars

1001
00:48:37.800 --> 00:48:38.760
novelisation.

1002
00:48:38.820 --> 00:48:42.360
Because Terrence told me it was one of his favourite stories to

1003
00:48:42.360 --> 00:48:44.639
novelize, and you can just see it when you read it.

1004
00:48:44.699 --> 00:48:48.780
You know, it's dripping with all of the quality Terenceisms that

1005
00:48:48.780 --> 00:48:49.199
we know.

1006
00:48:49.260 --> 00:48:53.039
The hotel is so evocative and beautifully committed to page.

1007
00:48:53.099 --> 00:48:57.059
But the thing which meant a lot to me is this incredible prologue

1008
00:48:57.059 --> 00:49:01.380
which tells the story between Sutek and Horus and the science, it

1009
00:49:01.380 --> 00:49:02.820
goes on for page after page.

1010
00:49:02.880 --> 00:49:07.019
It's Terrence's original work rather than someone else's script

1011
00:49:07.019 --> 00:49:09.179
being novelized, and it's majestic.

1012
00:49:09.239 --> 00:49:10.739
It's almost lyrical.

1013
00:49:10.800 --> 00:49:12.300
It's like the story from mythology.

1014
00:49:12.360 --> 00:49:16.260
It had such an impact on me that when we came at school to study

1015
00:49:16.260 --> 00:49:20.699
Percy B. Shelley's sonnet Aussie Mandius.

1016
00:49:20.760 --> 00:49:26.219
It really captured my imagination, that poem. because it reminded

1017
00:49:26.219 --> 00:49:28.980
me so heavily of that prologue from the Pyramids Mars.

1018
00:49:29.039 --> 00:49:29.940
That sort of took me back there.

1019
00:49:30.000 --> 00:49:34.320
So I learnt the words to Ozzymandis by heart and I can still

1020
00:49:34.320 --> 00:49:35.039
recite them.

1021
00:49:35.340 --> 00:49:37.559
From memory. you like me to?

1022
00:49:37.619 --> 00:49:38.460
Yes, please.

1023
00:49:38.760 --> 00:49:43.500
I met a traveller from an antique land who said, to vast and

1024
00:49:43.500 --> 00:49:47.099
trunkless legs of stone, stand in the desert, near them on the

1025
00:49:47.099 --> 00:49:52.079
sand, half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown and wrinkled

1026
00:49:52.079 --> 00:49:55.920
lip, and sneer of cold command tell that its sculpture well those

1027
00:49:55.920 --> 00:49:59.940
passions read, which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless

1028
00:49:59.940 --> 00:50:00.239
things.

1029
00:50:00.300 --> 00:50:03.360
The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed.

1030
00:50:03.420 --> 00:50:06.780
And on the pedestal, these words appear.

1031
00:50:06.840 --> 00:50:08.940
My name is Ossimandius, king of kings.

1032
00:50:09.000 --> 00:50:11.820
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair.

1033
00:50:11.880 --> 00:50:13.980
Nothing beside remains.

1034
00:50:14.159 --> 00:50:18.900
Round the decay of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare, The

1035
00:50:18.900 --> 00:50:21.420
lone and level sands stretch far away.

1036
00:50:21.480 --> 00:50:23.219
It's so good isn't it?

1037
00:50:23.280 --> 00:50:24.300
It's so good.

1038
00:50:24.360 --> 00:50:27.420
And the fact that that was inextricably linked with the pyramids

1039
00:50:27.420 --> 00:50:31.440
of Mars, in my mind, and that was down to Terence, and it was the

1040
00:50:31.440 --> 00:50:35.639
fact that I went off and learnt something that was beautiful and

1041
00:50:35.639 --> 00:50:37.800
literary because of his words.

1042
00:50:37.860 --> 00:50:40.440
And I think I'm not alone in that.

1043
00:50:40.500 --> 00:50:44.639
I think our generation, he opened the door to so many things.

1044
00:50:44.699 --> 00:50:46.320
Oh, yeah. through his book.

1045
00:50:46.380 --> 00:50:50.159
So many, you know, so much world building and world learning and

1046
00:50:50.159 --> 00:50:52.500
sort of going off into different topics, things that you would

1047
00:50:52.500 --> 00:50:53.400
have known nothing about.

1048
00:50:53.460 --> 00:50:57.059
We owe him this debt of gratitude for kind of expanding our

1049
00:50:57.059 --> 00:50:57.960
horizons a little bit.

1050
00:50:58.019 --> 00:50:59.400
Same for me.

1051
00:50:59.460 --> 00:51:03.840
Like, I learned that being a writer was a job you could do, like

1052
00:51:03.840 --> 00:51:07.440
and I said that as a five-year-old to my parents who said, why

1053
00:51:07.440 --> 00:51:08.219
don't you get a real job?

1054
00:51:08.280 --> 00:51:13.559
Anyway, here I am, professional writer. that owns a house and

1055
00:51:13.559 --> 00:51:15.360
still feel that horrible thing.

1056
00:51:15.659 --> 00:51:17.400
The core of me.

1057
00:51:17.460 --> 00:51:21.300
But just because it was a name, like you could attach a name to

1058
00:51:21.300 --> 00:51:24.900
the things that you loved. like, and that someone was responsible

1059
00:51:24.900 --> 00:51:27.659
for them and you're like, oh, I want to be that guy.

1060
00:51:27.719 --> 00:51:30.420
I want to be the guy that comes up with fun things to do.

1061
00:51:30.480 --> 00:51:34.139
And it was, yeah, I think you're right, Peter.

1062
00:51:34.199 --> 00:51:40.380
It just makes you feel like you have this entry into a world that

1063
00:51:40.380 --> 00:51:44.400
you previously didn't know existed and he's responsible for that

1064
00:51:44.400 --> 00:51:45.119
for so many people.

1065
00:51:45.179 --> 00:51:51.300
I always tell the story of reading the novelisation of Planet of

1066
00:51:51.300 --> 00:51:52.559
the Spiders when I was quite small.

1067
00:51:52.619 --> 00:51:56.880
And there's Sarah goes to Metabulous 3.

1068
00:51:57.059 --> 00:51:58.679
She's teleported there in an instant.

1069
00:51:58.739 --> 00:52:01.980
And I think it's at the beginning of the next chapter.

1070
00:52:02.039 --> 00:52:04.800
She's got her eyes shut and she can feel the heat of the desert on

1071
00:52:04.800 --> 00:52:05.219
her face.

1072
00:52:05.280 --> 00:52:09.659
And I remember distinctly thinking, he's telling it from her point

1073
00:52:09.659 --> 00:52:09.960
of view.

1074
00:52:10.019 --> 00:52:11.219
That's what she's experiencing.

1075
00:52:11.280 --> 00:52:13.920
It's not what I saw on the television because I would have seen

1076
00:52:13.920 --> 00:52:17.099
that quite recently and realising that that was a thing you could

1077
00:52:17.099 --> 00:52:20.280
do and it was my very 1st ever insight into writing.

1078
00:52:20.760 --> 00:52:23.760
I must have learned a lot without even realising it.

1079
00:52:23.820 --> 00:52:24.360
Yeah.

1080
00:52:24.420 --> 00:52:26.579
He was really, really quite incredible.

1081
00:52:26.639 --> 00:52:30.599
I have a friend at work who is maybe one of the most voracious

1082
00:52:30.599 --> 00:52:35.400
readers that I have ever met and people at work and, you know, at

1083
00:52:35.400 --> 00:52:36.179
Sydney grammar school.

1084
00:52:36.239 --> 00:52:37.260
It's an academic school.

1085
00:52:37.320 --> 00:52:41.519
People at work go to her and ask her opinion or, you know, what

1086
00:52:41.519 --> 00:52:44.280
should I read next or what did you think of this?

1087
00:52:44.340 --> 00:52:45.960
Does she say underworld?

1088
00:52:47.159 --> 00:52:49.320
It's really good book.

1089
00:52:49.739 --> 00:52:56.400
But the 1st chapter book that she ever read was the Auton Invasion

1090
00:52:56.400 --> 00:52:58.260
by Terence Diggs.

1091
00:52:58.320 --> 00:53:03.420
And when she went to the Doctor Who experienced years ago, she

1092
00:53:03.420 --> 00:53:06.599
came back with a copy of the Cave Monsters for me and I had never

1093
00:53:06.599 --> 00:53:07.559
owned that as a child.

1094
00:53:07.619 --> 00:53:11.820
I know that's Malcolm Hulk, but that novelisation of the Orson

1095
00:53:11.820 --> 00:53:15.179
Invasion, which was the 1st time I ever experienced that story.

1096
00:53:15.239 --> 00:53:18.480
I think I read it before I ever saw Spearhead from space, even

1097
00:53:18.480 --> 00:53:22.260
though that was kind of regularly repeated, is so extraordinary.

1098
00:53:22.320 --> 00:53:26.820
Like, and it is the clarity and simplicity, the fact that he

1099
00:53:26.820 --> 00:53:27.960
doesn't talk down to you.

1100
00:53:28.019 --> 00:53:31.619
We've talked about the opening lines, you know, through the ruins

1101
00:53:31.619 --> 00:53:34.139
of a city, stalk the ruins of a man.

1102
00:53:34.199 --> 00:53:36.000
He was a dead man running or whatever.

1103
00:53:36.059 --> 00:53:39.300
Like just those wonderful beginnings there.

1104
00:53:39.360 --> 00:53:42.000
There's some funny jokes in here.

1105
00:53:42.059 --> 00:53:46.559
There are some clever turns of phrase that are almost poetic but

1106
00:53:46.559 --> 00:53:51.300
not pretentious and it is just something that reads itself in

1107
00:53:51.300 --> 00:53:52.500
front of you, I think.

1108
00:53:52.559 --> 00:53:56.519
It's so, so much easier, so much more fluid, so much more

1109
00:53:56.519 --> 00:54:00.360
interesting than so many of the other things around it. is really

1110
00:54:00.360 --> 00:54:01.019
something.

1111
00:54:01.079 --> 00:54:03.659
Terrence is the definition of casually brilliant.

1112
00:54:03.719 --> 00:54:04.320
Yeah.

1113
00:54:04.380 --> 00:54:07.019
Making something really difficult, look easy.

1114
00:54:07.079 --> 00:54:07.679
Yeah.

1115
00:54:08.400 --> 00:54:11.280
Yeah, I mean, it was that thing that you were talking about the

1116
00:54:11.280 --> 00:54:14.519
difference between art and craft, but like sometimes I'm not sure

1117
00:54:14.519 --> 00:54:15.420
there is a difference.

1118
00:54:15.480 --> 00:54:18.719
And, you know, like we tend to think of genre fiction or

1119
00:54:18.719 --> 00:54:22.380
novelisations or something like that is, you know, like that they

1120
00:54:22.380 --> 00:54:24.059
need to be apologised for.

1121
00:54:24.119 --> 00:54:24.659
Do you know what I mean?

1122
00:54:24.719 --> 00:54:25.440
They're not art.

1123
00:54:25.500 --> 00:54:27.119
They're not art, but they're craft.

1124
00:54:27.179 --> 00:54:30.420
We identify it as craft because we don't want to dignify it with a

1125
00:54:30.420 --> 00:54:33.360
title of art, but that's a kind of snobbery, I think, of sort of

1126
00:54:33.360 --> 00:54:34.619
genre snobbery, really.

1127
00:54:34.800 --> 00:54:40.079
That what he does is he creates something beautiful and meaningful

1128
00:54:40.079 --> 00:54:43.980
and something that has some kind of impact on the world.

1129
00:54:44.639 --> 00:54:49.860
I always define craft as all of the things you do to create

1130
00:54:49.860 --> 00:54:50.340
something.

1131
00:54:50.400 --> 00:54:51.179
Yeah.

1132
00:54:51.179 --> 00:54:57.719
And the art is making it better than someone else's.

1133
00:54:58.079 --> 00:55:00.840
It's the thing that makes it resonant.

1134
00:55:00.900 --> 00:55:03.719
It's the thing that makes you go, oh, I want to read that again. or

1135
00:55:03.719 --> 00:55:05.519
that was really satisfying.

1136
00:55:05.579 --> 00:55:07.739
Like, it's, you know, I felt the same about stand-up.

1137
00:55:07.800 --> 00:55:09.960
It's like, I could teach anyone to do a 5 minute set.

1138
00:55:10.019 --> 00:55:13.739
Like anyone, but mostly it's just going to be someone being very

1139
00:55:13.739 --> 00:55:16.980
boring and annoying for 5 minutes and maybe getting a couple of

1140
00:55:16.980 --> 00:55:21.420
laughs or you could be transcended and create a room full of joy.

1141
00:55:21.420 --> 00:55:23.460
And that's the art.

1142
00:55:23.579 --> 00:55:27.119
That's the, no, the extra one% that makes it better.

1143
00:55:27.179 --> 00:55:30.119
But the craft is like once you know all the rules, you should be

1144
00:55:30.119 --> 00:55:30.960
able to punch it out.

1145
00:55:31.019 --> 00:55:34.139
When you make the distinction between art and craft and genre

1146
00:55:34.139 --> 00:55:36.719
terms as well, I think people make a distinction between aiming

1147
00:55:36.719 --> 00:55:41.340
for art, which is more heavyweight literature and doing the craft

1148
00:55:41.340 --> 00:55:45.059
which can sometimes become art just by virtue of how well it's

1149
00:55:45.059 --> 00:55:45.179
done.

1150
00:55:45.659 --> 00:55:49.260
It's just that art without craft, I think, isn't really possible.

1151
00:55:49.320 --> 00:55:50.519
Do you know what I mean?

1152
00:55:50.579 --> 00:55:51.840
Like, it's just wank, really.

1153
00:55:51.900 --> 00:55:52.559
I think.

1154
00:55:52.619 --> 00:55:53.099
Yeah.

1155
00:55:53.159 --> 00:55:53.639
Yeah.

1156
00:56:18.300 --> 00:56:22.199
Well, that's all the time we have this week and for this season.

1157
00:56:22.260 --> 00:56:27.179
We'll be back early next year for season four of 500 year diary to

1158
00:56:27.179 --> 00:56:30.360
watch Torchwood, season three, Children of Earth.

1159
00:56:30.420 --> 00:56:33.900
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts

1160
00:56:33.900 --> 00:56:37.619
and you can keep up with us on our website, 500yearDiary.com, where

1161
00:56:37.619 --> 00:56:40.800
you'll find our social media links, as well as links to all of our

1162
00:56:40.800 --> 00:56:44.039
other podcasts, including our other Doctor Who podcasts, flight

1163
00:56:44.039 --> 00:56:47.280
through entirety, and the 2nd grade and bountiful human empire.

1164
00:56:47.340 --> 00:56:51.480
Until next time, remember that you're always allowed to be nice to

1165
00:56:51.480 --> 00:56:54.599
people, even if it changes human history for the better.

1166
00:56:54.659 --> 00:56:57.119
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

1167
00:56:57.179 --> 00:56:58.019
Good night.

1168
00:56:58.079 --> 00:56:58.920
Bye bye.

1169
00:56:58.980 --> 00:56:59.519
Good night.

1170
00:57:09.840 --> 00:57:13.920
That was 500 year diary, starring Nathan Bottomley, Peter

1171
00:57:13.920 --> 00:57:16.019
Griffiths, Kate Orman, and Adam Richard.

1172
00:57:16.079 --> 00:57:18.539
The theme was composed by Cameron Lamb.

1173
00:57:18.599 --> 00:57:22.440
This episode, Let's explain Hitler, was recorded on the 30th of

1174
00:57:22.440 --> 00:57:25.860
November 2025, and released on the 28th of December.

1175
00:57:26.579 --> 00:57:31.139
Over on maximum power, we've just released our epic retrospective

1176
00:57:31.139 --> 00:57:35.039
of the whole damn show, featuring hosts from every hemisphere

1177
00:57:35.039 --> 00:57:39.000
discussing how Blake 7 has thrilled, delighted, titillated and

1178
00:57:39.000 --> 00:57:40.380
enraged us over the years.

1179
00:57:40.440 --> 00:57:45.000
Go over to maximumpowerpodcast.com or to your podcatcher of choice

1180
00:57:45.000 --> 00:57:46.199
and give it a listen.

1181
00:57:46.260 --> 00:57:47.760
And we'll see you next year.

1182
00:57:55.079 --> 00:57:57.960
I don't know, that just sounds like an ad.

1183
00:57:58.019 --> 00:57:59.340
It really does.

1184
00:58:00.900 --> 00:58:07.619
It's um, I mean, you know, like, obviously, it's Paul and and

1185
00:58:07.619 --> 00:58:10.619
Terence that launched the missing adventures, isn't it?

1186
00:58:10.679 --> 00:58:13.920
I mean, Terrence doesn't write the 1st one, but he and Paul get

1187
00:58:13.920 --> 00:58:18.659
together to write the 2 parter, the blood harvest and another

1188
00:58:18.659 --> 00:58:21.239
great Terrence book that is just kind of filled with all of his

1189
00:58:21.239 --> 00:58:24.539
preoccupations. vampires, time lords.

1190
00:58:24.599 --> 00:58:28.139
You know, that's the one thing we didn't talk about was the time

1191
00:58:28.139 --> 00:58:32.099
lords thing too, because again, you know, Terrence creates the

1192
00:58:32.099 --> 00:58:37.500
time lords, essentially. and then Bob Holmes wrecks them. really

1193
00:58:38.519 --> 00:58:39.719
such a great way.

1194
00:58:39.780 --> 00:58:40.739
Yeah, wonderful.

1195
00:58:40.800 --> 00:58:41.519
I think it's great.

1196
00:58:41.579 --> 00:58:42.239
I don't know.

1197
00:58:42.300 --> 00:58:45.179
I love, you know, like I love what he does to them, and it's an

1198
00:58:45.179 --> 00:58:46.739
inevitably sort of homes thing.

1199
00:58:46.800 --> 00:58:49.199
And Terrence takes that on board.

1200
00:58:49.260 --> 00:58:52.500
You know, you can see, it's like the interactions between Russell

1201
00:58:52.500 --> 00:58:53.159
and Moffatt.

1202
00:58:53.219 --> 00:58:53.760
Do you know what I mean?

1203
00:58:53.820 --> 00:58:56.820
They like each other's Doctor Who and they take things from each

1204
00:58:56.820 --> 00:58:57.119
other.

1205
00:58:57.719 --> 00:59:04.800
And so you have Terence comparing the time lords to the Nazis here

1206
00:59:04.800 --> 00:59:09.539
explicitly and saying that the time lords are also, you know, full

1207
00:59:09.539 --> 00:59:15.300
of infighting and backstabbing and and, you know, I mean, it's a

1208
00:59:15.300 --> 00:59:17.340
striking comparison, I think.

1209
00:59:17.400 --> 00:59:22.320
And what he does is he creates a sort of mythical past for the

1210
00:59:22.320 --> 00:59:27.960
timelords, where they're much more evil and much more kind of

1211
00:59:27.960 --> 00:59:34.980
terrible, leaving the dodtery homes kind of timelords, alone sort

1212
00:59:34.980 --> 00:59:35.760
of thing, I think.

1213
00:59:35.820 --> 00:59:36.960
Yeah.

1214
00:59:37.019 --> 00:59:40.920
It's a bit of a case of diminishing returns, as Terence goes on

1215
00:59:40.920 --> 00:59:44.340
because he does, he does write many more entries in the new

1216
00:59:44.340 --> 00:59:46.320
adventures and then the BBC books.

1217
00:59:46.380 --> 00:59:50.280
And I think, you know, he's he's off his peak by then and maybe

1218
00:59:50.280 --> 00:59:51.780
he's sort of dashing them off for the money.

1219
00:59:51.840 --> 00:59:52.260
Who knows?

1220
00:59:52.320 --> 00:59:56.340
But this, I think, is distilled Terence, and so is Blood Harvest.

1221
00:59:56.400 --> 00:59:59.880
And I think catastrophe, which is one of his later entries, is

1222
00:59:59.880 --> 01:00:02.340
kind of fun because that's in his wheelhouse.

1223
01:00:02.400 --> 01:00:04.019
That's a 3rd doctor in Joe's story.

1224
01:00:04.079 --> 01:00:07.500
But once you reach things like the 8 doctors and he's really just

1225
01:00:07.500 --> 01:00:10.559
doing his greatest hits, he's revisiting all the things that he

1226
01:00:10.559 --> 01:00:12.179
did and having a bit of fun with them.

1227
01:00:12.239 --> 01:00:15.780
There's an audience for that, but I think this is a book where

1228
01:00:15.780 --> 01:00:20.639
Terrence is writing for the audience and is making them feel

1229
01:00:20.639 --> 01:00:24.059
comforted and costed and wrapped up in sort of a warm Terrency

1230
01:00:24.059 --> 01:00:25.019
glow.

1231
01:00:25.019 --> 01:00:28.019
It's doing the things that he does well, which he knows that the

1232
01:00:28.019 --> 01:00:31.260
audience will need at this point, which the readership will need.

1233
01:00:31.320 --> 01:00:32.099
And it's the bridge.

1234
01:00:32.159 --> 01:00:33.840
Like you say, he's just finished writing a couple of

1235
01:00:33.840 --> 01:00:34.619
novelisations.

1236
01:00:34.679 --> 01:00:40.739
So he's he is the entrée for the rest of us to go, oh, yeah. stick

1237
01:00:40.739 --> 01:00:41.519
my toe in here.

1238
01:00:41.579 --> 01:00:43.860
Because, I mean, you have it from the other direction, don't you

1239
01:00:43.860 --> 01:00:47.340
with things like Mark Platt's novelisation and, you know, those

1240
01:00:47.340 --> 01:00:50.579
season 26 novelisation...

1241
01:00:50.639 --> 01:00:53.219
Yeah, yeah, where we're working towards, well, that, you know

1242
01:00:53.219 --> 01:00:56.159
remembrance of the Daleks are so extraordinary. context.

1243
01:00:56.219 --> 01:00:57.599
It was just incredible, wasn't it?

1244
01:00:57.659 --> 01:00:58.619
Like amazing.

1245
01:00:58.679 --> 01:01:02.460
And so you have that heading towards something a little bit more

1246
01:01:02.460 --> 01:01:04.500
literary and a little bit more complicated.

1247
01:01:04.619 --> 01:01:09.179
And so the virtue, new adventure seem like kind of the next

1248
01:01:09.179 --> 01:01:10.079
logical stamp.

1249
01:01:10.199 --> 01:01:10.860
Yeah.

1250
01:01:10.860 --> 01:01:12.480
And that's kind of the comparison, isn't it?

1251
01:01:12.539 --> 01:01:15.420
If you're moving from the novelisation of the space pirates to

1252
01:01:15.420 --> 01:01:15.960
excess.

1253
01:01:16.019 --> 01:01:17.760
It's not too far of a leap.

1254
01:01:17.880 --> 01:01:21.960
I think moving from something like the novelisation of battlefield

1255
01:01:21.960 --> 01:01:26.579
which Mark Platt does to times crucible, might be going a little

1256
01:01:26.579 --> 01:01:28.199
bit far for some of the audience.

1257
01:01:28.260 --> 01:01:31.139
It's pushing it in a direction, which is not an entirely

1258
01:01:31.139 --> 01:01:31.920
comfortable fit.

1259
01:01:31.980 --> 01:01:33.360
And that's the thing.

1260
01:01:33.420 --> 01:01:36.059
It was kind of like, I am kind of here for the Doctor Who.

1261
01:01:36.119 --> 01:01:40.380
And so when I'm reading Times Crucible and I am unwilling to do

1262
01:01:40.380 --> 01:01:42.480
the work that it seems to want me to put in.

1263
01:01:42.539 --> 01:01:47.639
Um, you know, uh, like I'm just kind of not really having fun

1264
01:01:47.639 --> 01:01:52.320
where it's, it's very clear what's going on in, in Terrence's

1265
01:01:52.320 --> 01:01:52.559
thing.

1266
01:01:52.619 --> 01:01:55.920
I mean, like, I will put effort into reading things, but not

1267
01:01:55.920 --> 01:02:00.239
something with a big silver metal worm on the front cup, frankly.

1268
01:02:00.300 --> 01:02:03.480
And also not into things written by John Peel, just saying.

1269
01:02:03.539 --> 01:02:04.920
Oh yeah.