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NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 09:15:34

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to 500 year diary.

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The only Doctor Who podcast that's very much still the podcast we once were.

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Thank goodness.

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I'm Bill.

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I'm Pat.

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I'm John.

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I'm a waxwork they got in from Madame Dussauds.

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And I'm Peter.

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It's the 23rd of November, 1983.

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If you're in the US, or it's the 25th of November, if you're one of the 7700000 people in the UK watching this year's children in need special, or it's the 13th of December in Australia, or the 22nd of January 1984, if you missed it in Sydney, because of that electrical storm, it's very complicated.

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It's been 20 years since Ian and Barbara found that police box in a junkyard that can move anywhere in time and space, and to celebrate that fact, Tonight, we're watching a bunch of elderly actors walking slowly towards a tower where they will trick their enemy into a trap and then all go back home again.

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Is it Terrence's crowning achievement?

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Let's find out as we discuss the 5 doctors.

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Should we talk about how we first watch this?

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So, I was staying at a friend's place in the entrance, which is just north of Sydney.

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And so although there was a storm, and although I did have to rush out in the middle of the episode to help his grandmother take the clothes off the line, I did actually get to watch the whole thing uninterrupted.

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So you went outside, got the clothes in the middle.

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Then rush back in.

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And missed nothing, basically.

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Was the entrance above between or below?

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Above. above exactly.

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This would have been at the end of year 6 going into year seven.

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For us, yes.

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Yes, for us.

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And I remember.

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So we don't know each other yet?

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No, we don't.

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We met each other in February 84.

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That's right.

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So just before we met, Simon.

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I remember it being a dark and stormy night, you know, eagerly anticipating to push, play record on our, on our beta recording machine, and I was waiting for the, you know, the intro just to come in.

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And then this black and white thing appeared.

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I thought, what the hell is this?

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And then suddenly I realised, so I cut off part of William Hartnell's speech because I was just so sort of, 0 my god, it's all happening.

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So I just remember that.

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So again, you know, 1983 is kind of peak VCR arrival for a lot of people, I think, who were neither early adopters nor late adopters.

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And we had not long got ours.

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And I was had a videotape that had been given to me for this purpose.

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I was about to record for Keeps, my 1st ever Doctor Who story.

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There was a repeat run happening at the same time.

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We were in the middle of season 14.

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But were you recording on VHS or Beta?

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VHS.

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BC, we never had BC.

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Yeah, God.

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And then, so I think it was scheduled for 7.30 because I think that's before the 7.30 report it started.

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So it was after the ABC news at 7 o'clock, but you still had a regular Doctor Who episode at...

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It was part 2 of Robots of Death.

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Right, there you go.

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At 6.30 and I think that I saw all of robots of death, and then during the electrical storm, the power went out.

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And I didn't cry.

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It's that it was too serious for tears.

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I was absolutely shattered and I sat there.

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I sat there in front of the dark television in a dark room with this electrical storm going outside, waiting, 7.30, right.

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It started, and I'm missing it. 8 o'clock, still blackout, at about 830, about half an hour before the end, all the power comes on, and I pick it up from the chessboard sequence, so the cyber leader is just being shot by the master, and so I get the whole easiest pie thing, and everything from there was my 1st experience of the 5 doctors.

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And it's fascinating to remember when I was watching it for this. again, last night.

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I was thinking about, wow, watching back that final 3rd as the only example of the story.

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And for some reason, I didn't hit play record.

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I just thought, oh, because I can't have the whole thing.

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Can't have it.

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And it'll be on again.

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And just thinking, how did it all, how did this all fit together?

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They're all walking through these corridors in this tower and Peter Davidson is on gala fray and so on.

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So it was quite extraordinary.

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Well, of course, I'm of the same vintage as Simon and Todd.

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We didn't know each other at this point, but I'd been primed for the 5 doctors because 1983 for fans in the UK, but also I think for fans of our vintage was a banner year.

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There was fantastic run of repeats that year.

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We got some pertweese that I had never seen, which was like manna from heaven.

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The 525 line ones like that.

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That's right. awesome thing.

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That's right.

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So we usually got the 9 per weeks, the exister on film or on originated on 16 mil film or on 625 line.

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But this year we got 6 new stories that I hadn't seen before, which were frontier in space in a selection from season 8 and season nine.

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So I was already at peak fan.

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Then we went on a trip to the Macquarie Centre, which is a shopping centre.

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Which is brand spanking.

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It was you.

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That's right.

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We're going to be able to visit my cousins and we went there because it was a day out.

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And walking past a newsagent, staring out at me was the Radio Times 20th anniversary special.

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Oh, wow.

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And of course, my fan heart leapt.

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I'd already had my pocket money for that week, but my parents very kindly decided to advance me.

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The money from the next week to buy this, and I pored over that magazine, day in and day out, looking at the synopses of old stories, reading...

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And stories yet to go.

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Absolutely.

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And so I knew that the 5 doctors was coming.

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I knew that there was going to be something like I just didn't know when.

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And then when I saw it in the TV guide, I was ready and even though we got the storm, it didn't break the transmission for us.

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Oh, okay.

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See, that's really interesting because like, I can't remember when I got that radio times.

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For me, it has to have been after the 5 doctors.

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I think it was, um, I may have seen it in the shops, but then I think I got it for Christmas.

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So it's only 11th of December, so it's only even 2 weeks afterwards.

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Because I remember reading through it in all the synopses at the back and they mean utterly shocked by the fact that there was going to be a new doctor and actually absolutely overjoyed because I was in my total anti peak phase.

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But that's all I remember about that, and I don't remember my sequence of when I got that.

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So, and Brendan.

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So I was 2 months old.

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As old as that.

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Oh, so yes, I was born October 83.

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Old enough to form a fan opinion.

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However, my dad did, it seems recorded the original broadcast.

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It's hard to know when dad recorded stuff just because we already had a bunch of tapes when I got into it in about 1988.

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They were plentiful by the time.

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They were plentiful.

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And I do recall that our copy of the 5 doctors had during the starburst of the opening credits, a sort of neon ABC logo.

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I don't know if that's on the original or whatever, because I remember when I got the very 1st DVD in 1999, I was a bit surprised not to see it on there because by that time I knew that there was money from the ABC for the 5 doctors and what have you.

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So, yeah, I guess that was just knowing what I now know about television just something that they inserted in the playout centre, you know what I mean?

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Or maybe it was the ident fading into.

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But then again, the titles aren't up 1st and the heart and all is definitely in there on the VHS copy.

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I have recently got the equipment to start digitising my VHSs, so I will find out.

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Um, as for what I thought at the time.

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Well, it was kind of one of my only 2 ways to watch the 1st 2 doctors because we didn't have any heart and all.

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And I didn't like watching black and white stuff until about 1990 and that included the pertly black and whites.

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You know, I just watched Colour and just one day as a kid, I stuck on the mind dropper when I was, like, had a cold or something.

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And by the time I sat down on the sofa, I'm like, oh, well, I'm not getting up to change it.

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I'll just watch it and, you know, got into watching black and white that way.

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It's hard to remember my 1st thoughts of it, but it was one that I regularly rewatched because there were lots of doctors in it and lots of excitement.

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I mean, the regular rewatch is the thing because just to extend on my story, if I may.

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So I'm watching it for the 1st time in its entirety in the January afternoon repeat, and it was only because dad noticed it in the guide, the previous day.

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So I didn't have so the extraordinary thing is I didn't even have weeks or even days of anticipation for it.

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Because Doctor Hoop was not showing regularly at that time. didn't show us.

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Oh no, it was like Sunday afternoon.

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It was completely random...

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Right, but it wasn't even on at that time, like it was taking its break.

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Yes, it was taking us break because it was January.

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It was like the school hold days.

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And so it was just this complete fluke that I got in.

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And we were at our holiday home on the Hawkesbury River where the reception was very bad.

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And so I, for years and years, was watching this somewhat snowy version of the 5 doctors and just to pick up what you said earlier before, Todd.

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Again, I was thrown by the Hartnell clip at the beginning.

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And so, again, in those old VHS recorders that take a moment or 2 to actually start recording.

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So for me, my sole bit of that clip was mind.

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But which was watched.

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Many, many, many times.

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I think I could, and I think probably we all could, now recite the story through.

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I watched it more than anything else.

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I mean, it was for a while it was the only story I had on tape, then it was one of a few stories I had on tape, but nevertheless, it was something you would constantly go back to and watch again and again and again.

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And I think it is the ultimate in Doctor Who comfort food for all of the right reasons.

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It's exactly what Brendan was saying that it's like a greatest hits album.

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Like, it's like listening to Aber Gold is watching 5 Doctors.

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You're getting all the best bits of the show and all the bits of the show together.

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Of course you go back to it constantly.

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I recently recorded an episode of the Murran Chess Club on the Five Doctors, and for it, I watched the 40th anniversary version, which was released as part of the Blu-ray box set, and it's the same as the original card.

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It's not like the one that Brendan mentioned the 1999 one.

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It's just the original broadcast version with new special effects and obviously like a 5.one surround sound.

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A bit of extra music, yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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But the thing was that I could recognise instantly if any of the music...

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Yeah, yeah, yeah. because I know it absolutely off.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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The other thing that I think the 40th anniversary version does very well is just a couple of shots that are held too long in the original.

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He tightens them up just a breath.

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Not sort of cutting people off the 2nd they stop talking, but just where it's clear that the actor is waiting to hear cut.

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And they're not hearing it because it's Peter Moffatt.

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It's interesting.

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I noticed that as well.

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I watched it also that in the transmitted version for this podcast and I'm generally not a fan of these souped up versions and I think it's because I was scarred by that horrific version of the 5 doctors where they were using different takes.

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That's a 1983 classic they're hacking about with.

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Yeah exactly.

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For example.

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And I started noticing, actually, they're cutting that short.

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And so but it's amazing, even the beats after lines of dialogue are so familiar to us that we're noticing that they're just, oh, they've tightened that, or they've tightened that.

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I do have to praise the 40th anniversary edition, actually, because I thought they went through it with quite a light touch.

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And I think as things have progressed, the CGI additions that they've made, feel more authentic to some of the earlier ones where it's a bit over the top and it just doesn't gel with the other images that you're seeing.

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Because it's doing the very important thing of only changing the trappings, what they do in the 1999 VHS DVD version is that they actually change shots and change rhythm and change the storytelling.

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And I'm sorry to say they're not the storytellers that Peter Moth had is.

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No, and also there's a reason why those takes were chosen in the 1st place.

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And one can argue in hindsight, or maybe this take may have been better, but, you know, I think that was a level of interference that went too far.

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Absolutely, but also it reflects fan considerations and fan considerations are often not correct because rather than starting with the glimpse of that new console, which just absolutely major fan heart leap in 1983, especially coming off the pre-credit sequence, which was our only view of Bill Hartnell for the rest of that decade until VHS and DVD started coming out of his era.

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That is the correct way to start the anniversary story, not a supposedly atmospheric, but actually entirely undramatic series of shots of empty studio sets.

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Oh yes, that was terrible.

175
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Yeah, yeah.

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So much like robot, I read the novelisation.

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Which, of course, was accidentally released 2 weeks before broadcast.

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Well, you read it when you were a month and a half ago. right.

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So Terence is basing it off his scripts not having seen the finished version.

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So it actually includes one of the bits, so there's much derided about the special edition, which is when the 3rd doctor is throwing the lasso over to the Dark Tower.

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Sarah's like, oh, doctor, there's a side man coming.

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And he says, well, do something about it.

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And she throws a rock at it.

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And you just stay on this laden and she goes, missed.

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And the thing is, it's really funny because it's Liz and it's quite funny in the book as well, but watching it again without the special edition being new.

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It is kind of NAF.

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And I think the reason it doesn't work is we don't see a rock rolling past a cyberman.

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And even like, even like a...

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Is there any chance that would have looked good?

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Maybe?

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Not necessarily.

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Like, you know, it would have been the double taking pigeon from Moonraker.

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But Peter Moffat on the commentary for the 2 doctors actually takes that opportunity because he says a shot in the 2 doctors.

194
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Oh, no, I held that too long.

195
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And Colin says something, oh, well, they can fix that for DVD now.

196
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And he says, well, maybe if they asked, there's another one of mine where they didn't even ask and they're using shots that I cut out for a reason.

197
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Yes, he also...

198
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He also bitched about that to me.

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I interviewed him, and I have to say, I felt great sympathy.

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He's a craftsman and whatever fan opinion, I think that's changed now, but the received wisdom used to be that as a director, he wasn't that great.

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He's not amongst the best, but he's certainly a craftsman of many years experience.

202
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And for them to go in hacking around like that.

203
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I just felt was just an extraordinary level of disrespect.

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He's not a dynamic director.

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But for me, he's a classic director.

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And as every all the actors in all of the making ofs always say he was an actor's director.

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And I think putting aside twin dilemma for the moment, the performances he gets out of his cast and the people he chooses to be in his cast are superb.

208
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Thinking that we could have had Warris Sustain, or Dougie Canfield, to direct this, does give you a little bit of wistfulness, but actually, I understand JNT's reasoning with getting Peter Moffatt in to direct this.

209
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This isn't, in a sense, a normal Doctor Who episode in any sense.

210
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I mean, it's a children in need special, and this is not characteristic of what Terrence does generally, we've been talking about how propulsive his plots are and how they're full of incident and new things happen.

211
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This is incredibly straightforward.

212
00:17:05.579 --> 00:17:14.819
It is just designed to allow whoever is available to do their thing, which is a constantly shifting set of services.

213
00:17:14.819 --> 00:17:15.119
Exactly.

214
00:17:15.119 --> 00:17:19.500
And he is the right person to do that because he's an actor's director.

215
00:17:19.619 --> 00:17:27.960
Well, going back to Terrence, like, he had to come in, like Bob Holmes tried and couldn't make something worse. right?

216
00:17:28.019 --> 00:17:30.539
Wasn't it the 6 doctors with a fake 1st doctor or something like that?

217
00:17:30.599 --> 00:17:32.759
And all of that stuff that from that documentary.

218
00:17:32.819 --> 00:17:35.819
I mean, I know Bob Holmes is one of the greatest Doctor Who writers we've ever had.

219
00:17:35.880 --> 00:17:38.519
But I keep looking at that going, God, that would have been awful.

220
00:17:38.579 --> 00:17:51.299
And then, you know, Terrence comes in and has to then, wasn't the original idea that Hartner was just going to be in the opening credits, and it was going to be Pat with Jamie, the 3rd doctor with Joe, the 4th doctor with Sarah, and they go up, he'd go back to Gallifre, and then the 5th doctor.

221
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And then, of course, as you said, Tom's not doing it.

222
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Fraser Heinz not available and they start shifting all the components about like Katie's in Australia.

223
00:17:57.839 --> 00:18:04.380
So you end up with this mishmash of people that they're not the 1st people that you come to mind, like the 2nd doctor in the brigadier.

224
00:18:04.440 --> 00:18:06.539
Yes, they were together, but it's not...

225
00:18:06.599 --> 00:18:09.480
But it's not, and it's a 3rd doctor and Sarah, you know?

226
00:18:09.539 --> 00:18:19.380
And then suddenly, well, I mean, Susan with Richard Herndor, and so it's not quite, but it works in a way, but it just brings up these anomalies.

227
00:18:19.440 --> 00:18:34.440
Like, you know, suddenly Sarah's meeting the master for the 1st time when it could have been Joe and then Pertuy's with the cybermen, like, you know, when it really should be Pat and then wouldn't have been great if the 1st doctor had had illusions of like Ian and Barber or something like that.

228
00:18:34.500 --> 00:18:40.920
And then you've got like the whole Jamie and Zoe thing, which is the 2nd doctor shouldn't remember that their memories are erased.

229
00:18:40.980 --> 00:18:49.619
And so there's all these funny little things that technically if you really thought about it, you kind of think, well, you know, you know, this is not really properly working, but it's absolutely glorious.

230
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Well, taking out that point.

231
00:18:51.480 --> 00:18:56.220
This story, of course, had the longest development period of any Doctor Who story.

232
00:18:56.279 --> 00:18:59.160
So they were thinking about this 18 months before they were shooting us.

233
00:18:59.220 --> 00:19:08.579
And so to go to your point, Todd, about the different companions, it was in development for so long that originally they thought they were going to bring out Tom and Lala because they were still married at that point.

234
00:19:08.640 --> 00:19:14.220
I like the fact that Terence, he always said, I think we've said this before, he's good in a quasis.

235
00:19:14.279 --> 00:19:23.819
And this was absolutely the quintessential crisis of Doctor Who, because what you needed was someone who could just effortlessly adapt to whatever was needed.

236
00:19:23.880 --> 00:19:24.720
And that's Terence.

237
00:19:24.839 --> 00:19:26.940
That's not just a working professional at that time.

238
00:19:27.539 --> 00:19:29.099
Well, exactly.

239
00:19:29.160 --> 00:19:43.859
As a script editor on the Sunday classics, with all of that history of Dr. Andre is spell of sort of editing scripts to make them work, of writing the novelisation, so understanding how structure works, he was, in many ways, maybe the only person who could have made the story work.

240
00:19:43.920 --> 00:19:49.200
And the fact that you are able to slot in different companions and different doctors.

241
00:19:49.319 --> 00:20:07.500
You know, it's wonderful for a fan to be able to see another 3rd doctor and Sarah story as opposed to what you expect you might get, which is the 3rd doctor in Joe. It's wonderful to see Pat Troughton and the Brigadier, who really only had those 2 stories together, and then the 3 doctors where they're a bit off, have another adventure together.

242
00:20:07.559 --> 00:20:13.559
That's in some ways greater than having the doctor going through the death zone with Victoria and Jamie.

243
00:20:13.619 --> 00:20:22.740
And you get the wonderful thing, which I've often said, which I was disappointed. you didn't get more of in the 50th anniversary special, which is when you swap companions and doctors.

244
00:20:22.799 --> 00:20:25.680
So having Tegan with the 1st doctor works really well, for instance.

245
00:20:25.740 --> 00:20:31.019
And it's a shame that there wasn't more kind of like a bit more of a randomisation, but it needed a different plot.

246
00:20:31.079 --> 00:20:39.000
Look, Nathan, as you said, it's a relatively simple concept, but I think it needs to be because it is a series of vignettes, basically.

247
00:20:39.059 --> 00:20:41.099
It's a series of incidents.

248
00:20:41.160 --> 00:20:52.859
But the fact that it can create the illusion of it being a coherent story that does work and builds to a climax and a resolution is quite remarkable.

249
00:20:52.920 --> 00:20:59.640
And I take on board what you're saying, Todd, but there's actually surprisingly little that doesn't make sense or surprisingly little that doesn't work.

250
00:20:59.700 --> 00:21:01.619
I'm not criticising it for that.

251
00:21:01.680 --> 00:21:02.640
I'm just pointing out these things.

252
00:21:02.700 --> 00:21:04.319
Yes, I absolutely adore it.

253
00:21:04.380 --> 00:21:17.160
But it's so funny because it's like, you know, when the master turns up at the end and like the brigadier knocks him out in a second, it's sort of like I would have loved him, the master said, oh, brigadier or something, and then you've got the 3rd doctor Nabriti are just having a couple of lines together.

254
00:21:17.220 --> 00:21:18.660
I mean, yes, you want more.

255
00:21:18.779 --> 00:21:19.440
You want more?

256
00:21:19.500 --> 00:21:21.779
That's its floor. basically.

257
00:21:21.839 --> 00:21:27.660
And that was the floor that I felt in 1983 or perhaps more accurately January 1984, was that there wasn't more of it.

258
00:21:27.720 --> 00:21:32.220
As Doctor Who fans, I mean, you know, you should have been 9 hours and it wouldn't still wouldn't have been long enough.

259
00:21:38.279 --> 00:21:55.799
And that, in a way, is part of the virtue of the writing, because it was John Nathan Turner who said to Terrence Dix, I'm worried about having 5 leading men doing scenes together, all of whom have owned the show at some point, keep them apart until the end.

260
00:21:55.920 --> 00:22:06.000
Now, the thing is, it turned out at the read-through that that wasn't a problem, and they all got along very well, and John Pertwe said in later years that he was actually very sensitive to Peter Davidson.

261
00:22:06.059 --> 00:22:11.759
Having had the experience of the 3 doctors, of Pat Troughton coming in and charming everyone and him being incredibly threatened by that.

262
00:22:12.420 --> 00:22:19.140
And, you know, this is John Bertley saying, I knew what that felt like, and I didn't want to be that person.

263
00:22:19.380 --> 00:22:25.200
JT was probably remembering hearing that story from John.

264
00:22:25.259 --> 00:22:26.039
And so had that in mind.

265
00:22:26.099 --> 00:22:30.960
And dare I suggest it's probably dates from a moment when Tom was going to be in it?

266
00:22:31.019 --> 00:22:31.380
absolutely.

267
00:22:31.500 --> 00:22:33.000
And I think that would have been a very different situation.

268
00:22:33.059 --> 00:22:34.319
Absolutely.

269
00:22:34.380 --> 00:22:53.640
And that leads into, you know, examples of how masterful Terrence is as a writer, because for ages, the Pat Phantom scene was going to be Victoria and Zoe and the tell was Victoria calling him brigadier when she only knew him as the colonel.

270
00:22:53.700 --> 00:22:57.059
And that then obviates the whole season 6 B thing.

271
00:22:57.059 --> 00:23:02.460
Debbie Watling then gets 3 specials with Dave Allen, which I think may have fallen through.

272
00:23:02.519 --> 00:23:03.900
I think she said that at the convention once.

273
00:23:03.960 --> 00:23:12.599
She's like, look, you know, I had to turn down one day's work for 2 months work and then I got paid for that, but it didn't happen and I would have rather have done this.

274
00:23:12.660 --> 00:23:20.519
But, you know, then they have to call Fraser down at a week's notice because he couldn't be in it fully because of Emmerdale, but yes, they'll release him for 2 days kind of thing.

275
00:23:20.579 --> 00:23:23.579
And so Terence has to come in and go, right, what's something that makes sense?

276
00:23:23.640 --> 00:23:24.779
This makes sense.

277
00:23:24.839 --> 00:23:28.319
And then afterwards it was like, oh, God, I've created a whole separate continuity.

278
00:23:28.440 --> 00:23:30.240
Bob, can you come in and write something about this?

279
00:23:30.299 --> 00:23:31.680
Is it that?

280
00:23:31.680 --> 00:23:46.019
Because I just assumed that what had happened was he decided that there could be a very long explanation about, oh, no, they did go back and they did remember some of the doctor, but neither of them would have known the brigadier or something like that.

281
00:23:46.079 --> 00:23:49.680
But then you just sort of think, no, we're not doing that.

282
00:23:49.740 --> 00:23:51.960
We're just getting this scene done.

283
00:23:52.019 --> 00:23:56.039
Oh, it's interesting that you talk about, you know, the fact that how does a doctor know that they were coming back there in time.

284
00:23:56.099 --> 00:23:58.920
That means it's the series 6B thing, blah, blah, blah.

285
00:23:58.980 --> 00:24:04.799
But the way my fan, 11, 12 year old head cannon was working, and it's that different from today.

286
00:24:05.220 --> 00:24:10.619
I take that as a compliment. which is not that much different from today.

287
00:24:10.740 --> 00:24:23.099
And I've carried this with me ever since, and because it works in both the 3 doctors and the 5 doctors, is that it's almost like a bi-generation thing, in that it's almost like it's the spirits, the ghosts of the doctors.

288
00:24:23.160 --> 00:24:26.039
Hartnall is, well, the 1st doctor, sorry, is wandering around a garden.

289
00:24:26.099 --> 00:24:32.339
The 2nd doctor was either running from a burning building or, um, you know, in this case, it's...

290
00:24:32.400 --> 00:24:32.819
Yes exactly.

291
00:24:32.880 --> 00:24:35.579
The nominally non-clip from the macro terror.

292
00:24:35.640 --> 00:24:37.319
And even John Pertwee's one.

293
00:24:37.380 --> 00:24:46.799
It's almost like there's a kind of an echo of the doctor that still exists and they remember everything about their era, apart from the moment.

294
00:24:46.859 --> 00:24:49.259
So John doesn't know that he turns into Tom Beck.

295
00:24:49.319 --> 00:24:51.539
He knows he's regenerating, but he doesn't know what he regenerates into.

296
00:24:51.599 --> 00:24:52.259
Do you know what I mean?

297
00:24:52.319 --> 00:24:58.619
Well, in a sense, he sort of does because he picks up from Sarah's hand gesture that she means teeth and curls.

298
00:24:58.680 --> 00:24:59.039
Curls.

299
00:24:59.039 --> 00:25:01.680
Yeah, he does kind of... he feels them coming on.

300
00:25:01.740 --> 00:25:05.700
And even and even the fact that the doctors refer to Davis.

301
00:25:05.759 --> 00:25:08.700
I mean, and this is a conceit because this is the 20th anniversary special, blah, blah, blah.

302
00:25:08.759 --> 00:25:13.619
But the doctors recognise Peter Davidson as the current model.

303
00:25:13.680 --> 00:25:15.720
Not like, oh, well, what are you going to turn into?

304
00:25:15.779 --> 00:25:18.900
they think that, well, no, no one really wants to know what he's going to do.

305
00:25:21.000 --> 00:25:24.180
I'm not going to comment.

306
00:25:24.180 --> 00:25:32.339
But yeah, but I actually think that and I think the sense I'm getting in this room and I think since I've gotten from talking to other people over the decades is that that's actually kind of what a lot of other people feel as well.

307
00:25:32.400 --> 00:25:38.099
Two doctors does it differently. 2 doctors you kind of do imagine that they've been plucked out of wherever it is.

308
00:25:38.220 --> 00:25:46.200
And you get the line about the drug that the 2nd doctor is been given so that he doesn't remember this adventure the next time it comes around.

309
00:25:46.319 --> 00:25:48.059
In the 2 doctors.

310
00:25:48.119 --> 00:25:48.420
Yeah.

311
00:25:51.660 --> 00:25:54.420
I think that that's absolutely right.

312
00:25:54.539 --> 00:26:00.059
And it works very well with an older 2nd doctor in the brigadier because they're ageing.

313
00:26:00.119 --> 00:26:10.680
They're both sort of, you know, like when you think about it, Pat as the doctor is 20 years younger than the brigadier is now, but instead the 2 of them are kind of like a weird old married couple.

314
00:26:10.740 --> 00:26:13.619
Age has not...

315
00:26:13.680 --> 00:26:15.839
Just keep bitching all the whole time.

316
00:26:15.900 --> 00:26:23.759
No, but light bitching because I watched an episode of the Three Doctors the other day just to sort of compare and it's dreadful the way they do, the brigadier and 2nd doctor.

317
00:26:23.759 --> 00:26:27.119
Oh, yeah, in comparison to this, which is a kind of a lovely banter.

318
00:26:27.180 --> 00:26:28.559
And, you know, the brigadier.

319
00:26:28.619 --> 00:26:30.660
Oh, you know, when he hands him the jelly babies.

320
00:26:30.720 --> 00:26:35.940
But you know, I expect that's the difference between Terence having a remembered idea of what the 2nd doctor was like.

321
00:26:36.000 --> 00:26:38.279
And then in the meantime, doing all those novelisations.

322
00:26:38.339 --> 00:26:41.460
They've actually got a proper handle on what the 2nd doctor is like.

323
00:26:41.519 --> 00:26:42.119
Exactly.

324
00:26:42.180 --> 00:26:47.700
And we forget that Terrence would often watch the tapes slash films of episodes.

325
00:26:47.759 --> 00:26:52.920
And I believe, Peter, that you said that Terrence watched the Abominable Snowman.

326
00:26:52.980 --> 00:26:58.079
So Terrence was probably the last person on this planet to have seen the Aboveable Snowman in its entirety.

327
00:26:58.140 --> 00:27:01.200
And there's another reason why he's so perfect for this.

328
00:27:01.259 --> 00:27:13.019
Not just the 5 or 6 years he script edited, but because he has a fan's understanding of how all these actors relate, how the characters relate, all the writing for all the doctors is spot on.

329
00:27:13.079 --> 00:27:16.440
And I don't think it's because the actors were having to tweak it during rehearsals.

330
00:27:16.500 --> 00:27:18.119
No, and this is the brilliance of Terence.

331
00:27:18.180 --> 00:27:19.859
This is what we've basically been talking about.

332
00:27:19.920 --> 00:27:24.779
The fact that he does have a fan's point of view on the series because he's so steeped in it.

333
00:27:24.839 --> 00:27:31.920
He's immersed in it, but he's also got a rightly creative view of the series where he knows what to Jettison and what to include.

334
00:27:31.980 --> 00:27:53.819
So the 5 doctors is probably the most potent example of fan service in the original series, I would say, but it's also the best done, because you get something like Arc of Infinity, where the entire thing hinges on the fact that the audience should know who Omega is, and unless they've been watching for 10 years or happened to catch a repeat on BBC 2 in August.

335
00:27:53.880 --> 00:27:59.519
That's right They sit there cold like they've been left out, like the series and other people know things that they don't.

336
00:28:00.119 --> 00:28:01.680
I think there are other flaws with arc of infinity.

337
00:28:01.740 --> 00:28:02.640
There are many.

338
00:28:02.700 --> 00:28:05.519
But that's a key one in its conception.

339
00:28:05.579 --> 00:28:19.200
Whereas with this, Terence knows that when Sarah says to the 3rd doctor, so the next one, teeth and curls, the audience immediately go, oh, yeah, the next one, Tom Baker with the curly hair, and that's the level of fan service that he includes.

340
00:28:19.200 --> 00:28:21.720
Because in a way that's not fan service.

341
00:28:21.779 --> 00:28:26.579
That's an awareness that Doctor Who belongs to a big audience of 1000000s of people.

342
00:28:27.539 --> 00:28:32.160
And that what this is, is that this is a celebration of a TV show.

343
00:28:32.220 --> 00:28:36.720
Stephen Moffat says that Doctor Who takes place under your bed, but he's wrong.

344
00:28:36.779 --> 00:28:39.359
Doctor Who takes place in a corner of the living room.

345
00:28:39.420 --> 00:28:42.839
So it's always been this TV thing.

346
00:28:42.900 --> 00:28:49.559
And so it absolutely operates as a kind of like a light entertainment piece, essentially.

347
00:28:49.619 --> 00:28:56.220
This is getting everyone in for This is Your Life only for Doctor Who, but we're acting it all out.

348
00:28:56.279 --> 00:28:57.420
That's the point.

349
00:28:57.480 --> 00:29:00.059
Terrence doesn't treat fan service as fan service.

350
00:29:00.119 --> 00:29:02.700
He treats it as long-term viewer service.

351
00:29:02.759 --> 00:29:03.720
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

352
00:29:03.779 --> 00:29:05.880
So it's just perfectly pitched.

353
00:29:05.940 --> 00:29:12.539
And anything that's going to make people at home wonder what the hell is going on really had to be jettison.

354
00:29:12.599 --> 00:29:17.819
So it is incredibly straightforward, and that's not a criticism at all.

355
00:29:17.880 --> 00:29:20.700
And there's no way Bob Holmes could have done that.

356
00:29:20.759 --> 00:29:24.960
He would have wanted to write a proper Doctor Who story with all those elements in it.

357
00:29:25.019 --> 00:29:25.920
And guess what?

358
00:29:25.980 --> 00:29:27.240
That just isn't possible.

359
00:29:27.299 --> 00:29:32.519
It's interesting because it is possible when we come to the 2 doctors because for 2 reasons.

360
00:29:32.579 --> 00:29:40.680
A, you're only talking about 2 doctors who the sense is they coincidentally meets, their paths happen to cross, and it being longer.

361
00:29:40.740 --> 00:29:47.940
I think both those things together, I think, make it work and that's one of the reasons why I think it's the most successful multidoctor story, although this comes as a close second.

362
00:29:48.000 --> 00:29:57.839
I think the other thing with Bob Holmes pictures is they all focus attention on the fact that Richard Herndle is not William Hartnall.

363
00:29:57.900 --> 00:30:01.440
They all go, we have to explain this because they're not going to accept it.

364
00:30:01.500 --> 00:30:06.839
Whereas Terence kind of says, the audience knows that William Hartnell is dead.

365
00:30:06.900 --> 00:30:08.880
Let's not hide it.

366
00:30:08.940 --> 00:30:16.500
We're getting someone who is giving a performance of that character. other than of that actor rather than of that actor.

367
00:30:16.559 --> 00:30:23.940
And it's like, because people know what theatre is and they know that there's a different Sherlock Holmes every 10 years, you know?

368
00:30:24.119 --> 00:30:24.900
James Bond, whatever.

369
00:30:24.900 --> 00:30:25.619
James Bond?

370
00:30:25.680 --> 00:30:25.980
Exactly.

371
00:30:26.039 --> 00:30:27.960
And I think that's the right way to go.

372
00:30:28.019 --> 00:30:38.279
And not that it's a, say, a weakness of Robert Holmes, but he writes such rich worlds that to him, he has to explain to the viewer why this change has been made.

373
00:30:38.339 --> 00:30:42.599
Maybe he was traumatised having watched the chase recently or something. wanted to correct that error.

374
00:30:42.660 --> 00:30:45.900
Well, we were all traumatised.

375
00:30:45.900 --> 00:30:50.819
In his initial concept, Dr. Will, as he calls him, is a robot replica.

376
00:30:50.819 --> 00:30:52.200
And that's why he's not quite right.

377
00:30:52.500 --> 00:30:56.160
If only the chase duplicate was only just not quite right.

378
00:30:56.339 --> 00:31:11.339
It's interesting Caroline Ford was out here recently and she was talking about working with Richard Herndle and saying that he was very concerned, like, oh, did I do that right constantly asking, you know, making sure that he wanted to get it as right as possible?

379
00:31:11.400 --> 00:31:14.700
And I think he does a really spectacular job.

380
00:31:14.759 --> 00:31:15.240
Yeah, you know?

381
00:31:15.299 --> 00:31:20.460
Yeah, maybe he doesn't look exactly like heart and all like, but you know, nobody's going to at that time.

382
00:31:20.519 --> 00:31:25.619
And I think it was very serendipitous that JNT saw him in a repeat of Blake Seven. you know?

383
00:31:25.680 --> 00:31:29.099
And he manages to convey that character.

384
00:31:29.160 --> 00:31:40.920
In fact, too, there is a sense in 1983 where the 1st doctor is largely unknowable, and we just think of him as the grumpy one, and that's not at all what he's like.

385
00:31:40.980 --> 00:31:48.059
A lot of that is informed by the only thing that had been seen of him in the last decade, which was the unearthly childhood.

386
00:31:48.119 --> 00:31:52.619
Yeah, aggression, but we didn't have anything where he actually is quite abrasive and grumpy for a lot of it.

387
00:31:52.680 --> 00:32:00.480
And I remember thinking that it had been a shame that he was not really able to participate in the 3 doctors very much.

388
00:32:00.539 --> 00:32:07.920
And so the fact that Bill was gone, did free them up, to give that 1st doctor more to do.

389
00:32:07.980 --> 00:32:12.839
And I actually like how they give him the job of solving the problem.

390
00:32:12.900 --> 00:32:21.779
He's the one who understands that they just need to let Barusa go and take Rassalon's ring and become immortal.

391
00:32:21.839 --> 00:32:25.859
Well, as the 2nd doctor said in the 3 doctors, he's always had a lot of respect for his opinion.

392
00:32:25.920 --> 00:32:26.880
Yeah, yeah.

393
00:32:26.940 --> 00:32:28.619
I mean, I think that's really terrific.

394
00:32:28.680 --> 00:32:33.000
And I do think he's very good and I think he is a bit silly and whimsical.

395
00:32:33.059 --> 00:32:44.339
And for those people who think that the 1st doctor only becomes sexist in twice upon a time, there is that wonderful moment where he tells Tegan to go and make some tea.

396
00:32:44.339 --> 00:32:48.599
And, you know, Pete's doctor has to kind of apologise for that.

397
00:32:48.900 --> 00:32:51.420
I thought Janet loses it.

398
00:32:52.019 --> 00:32:54.059
Hang on a minute.

399
00:32:54.119 --> 00:32:57.359
That sounds nice, but I think that's done nicely.

400
00:32:57.420 --> 00:33:02.819
Yeah, but it's not, it's actually not the fact that he asks her to fetch refreshments.

401
00:33:02.880 --> 00:33:08.640
It's the fact that that's the preamble to it is, look, young lady, make yourself useful.

402
00:33:09.180 --> 00:33:12.119
It's the way the whole thing plays.

403
00:33:12.180 --> 00:33:25.140
And if I may observe that about Terrence's dialogue in all this, given how much of it, it's a Tetris puzzle and bringing it all together, in the main, everyone gets the right amount of dialogue that you might expect.

404
00:33:25.200 --> 00:33:33.599
And there are wonderful sequences where there's a series of swiftly delivered lines one after the other from different characters to sort of build the scene.

405
00:33:33.660 --> 00:33:36.299
It's not like 2 of them are talking and the other ones are over here.

406
00:33:36.359 --> 00:33:40.079
You know, it's not just like you're hardly a suitable candidate for anything, all that sort of thing.

407
00:33:40.140 --> 00:33:45.779
I mean, Terence is so talented that he's genetically incapable of writing bad dialogue.

408
00:33:45.839 --> 00:33:50.339
So even given scenes like these, which are necessarily propelled forward by the plot.

409
00:33:50.400 --> 00:33:52.559
He fills them with great dialogue.

410
00:33:52.619 --> 00:34:00.539
And so this is perhaps the endlessly quotable Doctor Who story for fans of your and my vintage, Simon and Todd and Nathan.

411
00:34:00.599 --> 00:34:02.460
It's revealing of character as well.

412
00:34:02.519 --> 00:34:09.360
So that scene with the 2nd doctor where he's in the office with Colonel Crichton and the brigadier and he says you've redecorated.

413
00:34:09.420 --> 00:34:14.639
I don't like it, which is something only Terrant could have included because he remembered that from the 3 doctors.

414
00:34:14.699 --> 00:34:18.539
But then also the killer line, you're his replacement.

415
00:34:18.599 --> 00:34:20.039
Mine was pretty unpromising too.

416
00:34:20.099 --> 00:34:23.340
Yes, which is just, it works on so many brilliant levels.

417
00:34:23.400 --> 00:34:25.860
It's Terence having a swipe at pertwi.

418
00:34:25.920 --> 00:34:28.739
It's the 2nd doctor having a swipe at the third.

419
00:34:28.800 --> 00:34:40.139
But this is what I'm saying about the fact that these multi-doctor stories, these multi-doctor stories existing in this kind of with ghostly spiritual remnants of each doctor because this Trouton has done the 3 doctors.

420
00:34:40.199 --> 00:34:42.360
He remembers, oh, could you, do you know what I mean?

421
00:34:42.420 --> 00:34:46.320
So that's why, you know, in the end, you haven't changed, still finding menace in your own shadow.

422
00:34:46.380 --> 00:34:47.940
So he knows John Pertwe's doctor.

423
00:34:48.000 --> 00:34:53.159
Yeah, see, in my head, Canon, they can only remember that when they come back together when it's all tied out of sync.

424
00:34:53.159 --> 00:34:54.840
Yeah, that works too.

425
00:34:54.900 --> 00:34:59.519
They don't remember the 3 or the 5 doctors, it's only when this sort of anomally happens, that memory comes back.

426
00:34:59.579 --> 00:35:06.179
And Stephen Moffat picks up on that for day of the doctor and explicitly says at the end that John Hurts doctor won't remember.

427
00:35:06.239 --> 00:35:07.559
Yes.

428
00:35:07.619 --> 00:35:12.840
So that sort of preserves the fact that we then have Christopher Ecklson and David Tennant feeling incredibly guilty about the time war.

429
00:35:12.900 --> 00:35:13.679
Yeah.

430
00:35:13.739 --> 00:35:24.659
Something that's really masterful about Terrence's dialogue with the 4 leading men is that gives him for people to share the exposition among.

431
00:35:24.659 --> 00:35:41.460
Because something that was certainly a problem in, say, arc of infinity and terminus is a lot of it was just Peter Davison breathlessly going, oh, well, this is very bad because the thing's going to thing, and then the thing will or won't happen.

432
00:35:41.519 --> 00:35:42.179
I don't know.

433
00:35:42.239 --> 00:35:45.780
Whereas here, you can have character, character, character, character.

434
00:35:45.840 --> 00:35:50.099
Wrestleon is sleeping in his tomb and may have started the games himself and may have brought us here.

435
00:35:50.159 --> 00:35:51.719
Oh, and Brigadier, aren't you being silly?

436
00:35:51.780 --> 00:35:59.219
You know, and you can share that, but also picking up on what you were saying earlier, Nathan, with the fact that the 1st doctor's the one who solves the problem.

437
00:35:59.280 --> 00:36:04.320
It's kind of like each doctor solves problems in the story in a way unique to their character.

438
00:36:04.380 --> 00:36:13.500
So the 1st doctor doesn't get in any physical altercations, but he'll push a dalek down a corridor, so it shoots itself, and then he'll use his wits at the end.

439
00:36:13.559 --> 00:36:17.579
The 2nd doctor deals with the yeti by finding stuff in his pockets.

440
00:36:17.639 --> 00:36:20.400
The 3rd doctor creates a flying fox.

441
00:36:20.460 --> 00:36:24.900
I think the 1st doctor explains what pie is to the children at home.

442
00:36:24.960 --> 00:36:27.059
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. thought that was wonderful.

443
00:36:27.119 --> 00:36:28.980
Wasn't that wonderful?

444
00:36:29.039 --> 00:36:30.360
Does he explain the application?

445
00:36:32.639 --> 00:36:36.719
Even though neither the use of pie, nor the way to pizza or know anything about it.

446
00:36:36.780 --> 00:36:44.400
And Davison, of course, begins to solve the problem by pretending to just be a little bit annoying with the guard.

447
00:36:44.460 --> 00:36:46.800
It's like, oh, well, was the president did it?

448
00:36:46.860 --> 00:36:47.099
Really?

449
00:36:47.159 --> 00:36:50.039
Oh, well, I don't see him.

450
00:36:50.099 --> 00:36:50.760
Do you see him?

451
00:36:50.880 --> 00:36:52.739
How about you leave me alone to search this room?

452
00:36:53.880 --> 00:36:56.099
That thing about pie.

453
00:36:56.159 --> 00:36:58.019
I mean, even though that sequence is ridiculous.

454
00:36:58.079 --> 00:36:59.099
It's meant so much to us.

455
00:36:59.159 --> 00:37:00.420
I think back in the day.

456
00:37:00.480 --> 00:37:03.960
And now you can obviously look up high to have many decimal places.

457
00:37:04.019 --> 00:37:14.699
But, you know, it took, I think Brett, you and I found a book in the school library and was able to say that it was 3.141592653589793237462643383279.

458
00:37:16.679 --> 00:37:20.639
No, no, no, it was it was our year seven, maths book.

459
00:37:20.699 --> 00:37:22.260
Oh, did it?

460
00:37:22.320 --> 00:37:23.579
Oh, I thought it was a library book.

461
00:37:23.639 --> 00:37:25.619
But there is actually one digit.

462
00:37:25.679 --> 00:37:30.179
I think I've got there's a digit, which is a misprint, because it's subsequently found. 7 or an eight.

463
00:37:30.179 --> 00:37:31.260
It just said, yes, exactly.

464
00:37:31.260 --> 00:37:34.019
Oh, people, you are just transfixed with this.

465
00:37:34.019 --> 00:37:35.340
I mean, there was a seven.

466
00:37:35.400 --> 00:37:37.860
Yeah, one of the sevens should be an eight, but I still remember it as the seven.

467
00:37:37.920 --> 00:37:40.920
But that's the kind of thing that it Doctor Who inspired and it should.

468
00:37:40.980 --> 00:37:41.880
Yes, exactly.

469
00:37:41.940 --> 00:37:43.019
Don't look at me like that.

470
00:37:43.079 --> 00:37:44.760
The 1st doctor, of course, does it?

471
00:37:44.820 --> 00:37:47.159
Which is absolutely perfect for him in that era.

472
00:37:47.219 --> 00:37:53.880
I always wondered how Tegan got from square 2 to square 9 in one jump, you know, that she was going across.

473
00:37:53.940 --> 00:37:54.840
I don't I was trying.

474
00:37:54.900 --> 00:37:55.980
Yeah, don't think about it.

475
00:37:56.039 --> 00:38:00.960
I just love the weight and just walks across like, there's no rhyme or reason.

476
00:38:01.019 --> 00:38:05.340
I'm going, you're not going to, like, don't step over the lines, like, in the little boxes.

477
00:38:05.400 --> 00:38:08.940
So I think it has to let Time Lords through.

478
00:38:09.300 --> 00:38:10.679
Yeah.

479
00:38:10.739 --> 00:38:20.219
And the novelisation is rather wonderful with that in that he starts sort of figuring it out and then the paragraph is something all lines off.

480
00:38:20.280 --> 00:38:25.320
Tegan had no idea what the doctor was doing, but before she knew it, he was over the other side of the board.

481
00:38:25.380 --> 00:38:29.519
So even Terrence is going, I don't understand how it works.

482
00:38:29.579 --> 00:38:30.539
I just wrote it.

483
00:38:30.599 --> 00:38:31.139
Screw you.

484
00:38:41.579 --> 00:38:52.559
Terrence in the novelisation does fix, I would suggest the two eras of production, which I put the pie sequence down to, because I think that's just, that was never going to be capable of working.

485
00:38:52.619 --> 00:39:01.440
And that is the sequence by the road with Sarah, which is, unfortunately, shot and beat him off it on the documentary, sort of says, look, we tried, we tried.

486
00:39:01.500 --> 00:39:02.340
There was just no suitable.

487
00:39:02.579 --> 00:39:07.260
And actually, I think it's that sequence, which is responsible for a lot of his reputation in fandom as bad director.

488
00:39:07.320 --> 00:39:07.739
Exactly.

489
00:39:07.800 --> 00:39:13.440
But it's not just that then you got this longer shot as the car's driving off, which makes it even clearer that it's just a kind of a little thing that she could have walked up.

490
00:39:13.500 --> 00:39:17.940
See, surely the better decision then was for them to go, okay, this cannot work then.

491
00:39:18.000 --> 00:39:22.380
So she slips and trips because of the mist, she falls down the slope, and he just helps her out.

492
00:39:22.380 --> 00:39:24.960
Rather, like a power.

493
00:39:25.019 --> 00:39:27.599
That's the thing that makes it ridiculous.

494
00:39:27.599 --> 00:39:30.360
And her reaction being a bit too much for falling down the thing.

495
00:39:30.420 --> 00:39:32.219
She just should be upset for, I don't know where I am.

496
00:39:32.280 --> 00:39:35.219
And the other sequence is that Susan tripping over that Noll?

497
00:39:35.280 --> 00:39:44.099
Okay, there are 3 areas of production, so I think I should be, that was a bit rubbish, but it does allow her to then not be able to join the 1st doctor and Tegan on their trip to the tower.

498
00:39:44.159 --> 00:39:45.539
So there's a story reason for that.

499
00:39:45.599 --> 00:39:47.699
And it's like she's a 60s companion and she's rubbish.

500
00:39:47.760 --> 00:39:53.880
Oh, just as an aside, don't you love the bit when they're running through the kind of the maze with being chased by the darling.

501
00:39:53.940 --> 00:40:00.239
Caroline Ford is giving her best and an earthly child running slowly whilst trying to look exhausted.

502
00:40:00.300 --> 00:40:03.360
It's almost like she should be in close up running on the spot.

503
00:40:03.420 --> 00:40:04.380
Yes, running on the spot.

504
00:40:04.920 --> 00:40:06.420
Tree branches.

505
00:40:06.480 --> 00:40:10.380
I think she is also being sensitive to the fact that Richard Herndle is 72.

506
00:40:10.860 --> 00:40:12.960
He's a very young.

507
00:40:13.019 --> 00:40:14.280
Don't get me wrong.

508
00:40:14.340 --> 00:40:15.780
I was surprised he was 72.

509
00:40:16.019 --> 00:40:16.500
Yeah.

510
00:40:16.559 --> 00:40:19.440
When you consider that the original actor was only what, 55?

511
00:40:19.860 --> 00:40:20.400
Yeah, yeah.

512
00:40:20.460 --> 00:40:29.699
And Todd, we talked about this back in the day is the Ruston Warrior robot sequence where dear Elizabeth Slayton is being as still as she can.

513
00:40:29.760 --> 00:40:37.619
Well, John Pertwee feels completely able to move his head from side to side, not be shocked by the Raston Warrior robot, which is a bit like they could have done that a bit better.

514
00:40:37.679 --> 00:40:39.719
Does the brigadier turns his head as well?

515
00:40:40.500 --> 00:40:42.719
Yeah, Barusa freezes them all.

516
00:40:42.780 --> 00:40:43.079
Yeah.

517
00:40:43.139 --> 00:40:48.780
I'm always disappointed that poor Susan never got, we never got to see her time scooped.

518
00:40:48.840 --> 00:40:49.500
Do you know what I mean?

519
00:40:49.559 --> 00:40:51.900
Like, I always felt that in the novelisation.

520
00:40:51.960 --> 00:40:52.559
You're right.

521
00:40:52.619 --> 00:40:53.820
It's in the novelisation.

522
00:40:53.880 --> 00:40:58.920
But I always found that strange that everybody else, like Sarah got time scooped, but she just appeared.

523
00:40:58.980 --> 00:40:59.760
Do you know what I mean?

524
00:40:59.820 --> 00:41:06.539
Like, I know it's sort of a, not a jump scare, but, you know, it's the, oh, there's somebody else here, but I just thought it was weird.

525
00:41:06.599 --> 00:41:11.460
I wonder if they just didn't want to kind of say where Susan had ended up.

526
00:41:11.519 --> 00:41:18.539
I think it could also be a matter of, for the others, it was very easy to do it in sort of controlling.

527
00:41:18.539 --> 00:41:24.119
North Wales. but also controlled environments and places that didn't need set dressing.

528
00:41:24.179 --> 00:41:28.860
Like everyone else is ostensibly taken either from the present day or from an indeterminate period.

529
00:41:28.920 --> 00:41:33.119
We know that Susan is in the 22nd century in the novelisation.

530
00:41:33.179 --> 00:41:41.699
She's, you know, wandering through ruins, but also going, oh, these new buildings have come up and reconstruction and those wonderful moving walkways.

531
00:41:41.760 --> 00:41:42.239
Yeah.

532
00:41:42.960 --> 00:41:57.179
And, you know, it's just a matter of, okay, in order to do Susan, either they would have had to put her in a total wasteland, which means she's been in a total wasteland for 20 years, or it's a setting that would be a setting for an entire four-part story.

533
00:41:57.239 --> 00:41:58.559
Exactly, yeah. too hard.

534
00:41:58.619 --> 00:42:01.619
And it's one of those things that is then left to the imagination.

535
00:42:01.679 --> 00:42:09.239
And I really love the way Terrence does it in the novelisation and she's happy with David and he's rebuilding the earth and she's rebuilding the earth.

536
00:42:09.239 --> 00:42:18.780
And it's interesting that whenever Susan has been brought back in various media, be it the 5 doctors, be it the big finish with Paul McGann.

537
00:42:18.840 --> 00:42:22.260
They make it very clear that she had a happy life with David.

538
00:42:22.320 --> 00:42:33.539
You know, as funny as that Jane Asher thing is, and as much as we, you know, I believe on our last 5 doctors episode, Richard screamed, now get out of my ship, you painted.

539
00:42:34.500 --> 00:42:37.619
She had a happy life with David, she does love him.

540
00:42:37.679 --> 00:42:38.039
She does.

541
00:42:38.099 --> 00:42:39.059
She does, he does.

542
00:42:39.119 --> 00:42:39.780
She does.

543
00:42:39.840 --> 00:42:52.260
The other bit of nice interiority we get in the novelisation is that the reason that Sarah dismisses canine's warning is she still hurt by the fact the doctor never came back.

544
00:42:52.320 --> 00:42:58.139
That's why she won't believe that the doctor's involved because he hasn't come back in however many years.

545
00:42:58.199 --> 00:43:06.059
And then in the Dark Tower, when she says to Tegan, which one's yours, because that's still in the novelisation.

546
00:43:06.119 --> 00:43:16.079
Tegan explains, well, none of these ones, I've actually got this one, and Sarah figures out that the 4th doctor isn't here, and she's disappointed because it would have been nice to see him again.

547
00:43:16.139 --> 00:43:24.900
And I think that's Terence kind of going, hey, if anyone ever tells Tom about this, If Tom's ever signing the novelisation, I'd like for the mention of him to be fond.

548
00:43:24.960 --> 00:43:25.559
Yeah.

549
00:43:25.559 --> 00:43:36.539
And in fact, Liz Slayton said that when she was there for the photo call where they had the dummy from Madame Tussauds, and the other doctors were kind of mucking around with it, kind of like poking him and like pretending to defer to him and all that.

550
00:43:36.599 --> 00:43:37.380
She didn't like it.

551
00:43:37.440 --> 00:43:40.800
She felt uncomfortable because that's not how she viewed Tom.

552
00:43:40.860 --> 00:43:51.719
That scene, Brendan, where Tegan and Sarah say hello to each other, and then the brigadier recognises both of them, and the 3rd doctor comes over and says hello to the brigadier.

553
00:43:51.780 --> 00:43:52.980
That's all one sequence.

554
00:43:53.039 --> 00:44:02.519
It lasts for about 45 seconds and is absolutely the most heartwarming scene of the episode because we didn't need any of those bits.

555
00:44:02.639 --> 00:44:05.340
If it had been a modern television program.

556
00:44:05.400 --> 00:44:12.000
They'd have milked every last bit of emotion out of it and would have had fanboys and fan goals bawling at the screen 5 minutes in.

557
00:44:12.119 --> 00:44:13.739
I was in tears after 3 minutes.

558
00:44:13.800 --> 00:44:14.280
Exactly.

559
00:44:14.340 --> 00:44:16.920
Whereas it's just the perfect level.

560
00:44:16.980 --> 00:44:18.780
Terrence knows exactly how to pitch it.

561
00:44:18.840 --> 00:44:21.420
We need that meeting between the 3rd doctor and Abedia.

562
00:44:21.480 --> 00:44:22.320
They can't ignore each other.

563
00:44:22.380 --> 00:44:25.320
It's over and done with in 15 seconds and it's amazing.

564
00:44:25.380 --> 00:44:28.920
I actually think that that is the biggest shame about it.

565
00:44:28.980 --> 00:44:44.340
We don't get a sense of, and the show doesn't do it at this time and, you know, it goes on to do it much better in the 21st century, I think, which is to give some sense of what it's really like to travel with a doctor and to have had this experience.

566
00:44:44.400 --> 00:44:49.320
And there's a kind of stiffness, even to the brigadier coming over and saying, Miss Smith, isn't it?

567
00:44:49.380 --> 00:44:51.179
And you kind of go, really?

568
00:44:51.239 --> 00:44:53.039
You know, maybe it's not.

569
00:44:53.099 --> 00:44:57.900
I don't know It all just seems to lack a very English way of expressing something.

570
00:44:57.960 --> 00:44:58.920
Maybe, maybe.

571
00:44:58.980 --> 00:45:05.219
But then, of course, we get Barusa coming in and freezing everyone before they start having any interaction.

572
00:45:05.280 --> 00:45:10.260
Like very definitely isn't about that and isn't intending to be about that.

573
00:45:10.380 --> 00:45:15.300
It's not failing to be about that, but it is a bit of a shame that we don't get more of it.

574
00:45:15.360 --> 00:45:23.039
It's a little bit like Ian Marty coming back for Android Invasion and no one really seeming to kind of bat an eyelid that Harry's here.

575
00:45:23.099 --> 00:45:27.599
I love it in the book that Sarah and Teagan get to talk about which doctor is which.

576
00:45:27.659 --> 00:45:29.280
Like, yeah.

577
00:45:29.340 --> 00:45:31.260
That's my little fun boy heart going.

578
00:45:31.320 --> 00:45:32.099
Yeah.

579
00:45:32.099 --> 00:45:45.539
But I think the modern era goes into far too hard at trying to think, well, what would it be like to travel the doctor and the impact it would have on your life and in some respects, it's trying too hard to show the devastating impact it can have on your life.

580
00:45:45.659 --> 00:45:53.579
Whereas I think the show needs a little bit more of the innocence that you get here for it to work because it is horrific and ridiculous.

581
00:45:53.639 --> 00:45:58.320
And, you know, your life is in peril every time you step out of the Tartars, really.

582
00:45:58.380 --> 00:45:59.880
Who in their right mind would do that.

583
00:45:59.940 --> 00:46:03.900
And so you have to kind of hide that conceit by basically not dealing with it.

584
00:46:03.960 --> 00:46:09.059
And to be fair, you know, the new series does kind of do that at glosses over that.

585
00:46:09.119 --> 00:46:15.059
And in Russell's era, with the exception of Donna, everyone leaves kind of slightly better off or something.

586
00:46:15.119 --> 00:46:16.079
Do you know what I mean?

587
00:46:16.199 --> 00:46:18.599
They get a new job, they get a new dad back.

588
00:46:18.659 --> 00:46:29.579
They get, you know, like, thing is, I quite like when Martha and Donna meet and Martha sort of gently but firmly says to Donna, you need to think about the effect this is having on your life.

589
00:46:29.639 --> 00:46:33.000
You don't need to stop and I went through something terrible.

590
00:46:33.059 --> 00:46:34.500
It wasn't the doctor's fault.

591
00:46:34.619 --> 00:46:35.639
We're still friends.

592
00:46:35.699 --> 00:46:39.960
I would still do anything for him, but Donna, you know, you just need to think about what you're doing.

593
00:46:40.019 --> 00:46:45.420
And then Martha fully is on board with Donna carrying on travelling just as she's fully on board with.

594
00:46:45.480 --> 00:46:49.619
No, no, no, I'm going to go home and not marry Tom Milligan for some reason.

595
00:46:51.179 --> 00:46:53.639
But see, this is also Terrence.

596
00:46:53.699 --> 00:46:55.679
Terence didn't. gush with emotion.

597
00:46:55.739 --> 00:46:57.239
He's not that kind of person.

598
00:46:57.300 --> 00:47:13.980
And so when we think about the classic series and we think about the most potent departures with companions, for instance, then Joe Grant is right up there because Terrence knew that he had to set that up at the start of the story in a scene and then pay it off in a wonderful scene at the end, which is really heartwarming.

599
00:47:14.039 --> 00:47:18.179
And that scene at the end of the Green Death is kind of the interactions that we get in the 5 doctors.

600
00:47:18.239 --> 00:47:21.059
They're momentarily affecting, and then we move on with the story.

601
00:47:21.119 --> 00:47:22.320
That's what the classic series did.

602
00:47:22.380 --> 00:48:08.099
It's funny that Terrence actually gets the climactic moment in Day of the Doctor, where the various doctors repeat his speech from the 1976 edition of the making of Doctor Who. you know, the never cruel or cowardly speech, and that gets given to the doctors, and it is the thing that the show is about, because ultimately day of the doctor is a proper Doctor Who adventure, and doesn't just showcase a sort of bunch of people who'd been in the regular class before, and it aspires to say something about who the doctor is, and the big moment is the doctor reclaiming that title, you know, John Hertz

603
00:48:08.099 --> 00:48:13.079
doctor, reclaim that title, with the assistance of the other 2 doctors and Clara and so on.

604
00:48:13.139 --> 00:48:19.920
But the title is defined by Terrence in that speech, which is pretty incredible, I think.

605
00:48:19.980 --> 00:48:23.280
You know, I think Terence actually gets a bit of raw deal.

606
00:48:23.340 --> 00:48:27.420
People say that this was a puzzle box kind of jigsaw that he put together, which is true.

607
00:48:27.480 --> 00:48:31.739
But I think he also finds ways to make it thematic.

608
00:48:31.800 --> 00:48:34.440
And so, of course, it's about immortality.

609
00:48:34.440 --> 00:48:43.860
And the unchanging nature of Gallifrey and Barusa, who, for all of his different faces, has been at the apex at the Time Lord hierarchy forever and ever.

610
00:48:43.920 --> 00:48:50.639
And that's contrasted against the doctor, who is more free wheeling, more anarchic, and realise that immortality is a curse.

611
00:48:50.699 --> 00:48:55.079
And so what the program has done throughout its 20 years up to this point is constantly changed.

612
00:48:55.139 --> 00:48:58.440
And that's what Brusa doesn't want.

613
00:48:58.500 --> 00:49:02.159
He wants to be in charge forever and calcify.

614
00:49:02.219 --> 00:49:03.900
That's what the doctor is fighting against.

615
00:49:03.960 --> 00:49:05.760
So Terence is actually working in a theme there.

616
00:49:05.820 --> 00:49:06.900
I think you're right.

617
00:49:06.960 --> 00:49:12.360
He's actually like, you know, bringing in Barusa and making him a villain.

618
00:49:12.420 --> 00:49:14.099
I was totally shocked.

619
00:49:14.159 --> 00:49:15.300
Like, I didn't see it coming.

620
00:49:15.360 --> 00:49:23.699
But that's my 12 year old self, but also bringing in Wrestleon as well, who's being mentioned, you know, but always that mysterious figure.

621
00:49:23.760 --> 00:49:27.780
And I just love how he also, like, he works in the dialect.

622
00:49:27.840 --> 00:49:34.320
He works in all the cybermen, and then he comes up with something new with the Western Oreo robot, which, wait, Terence was in a dalek and aside them.

623
00:49:36.900 --> 00:49:38.340
Yes.

624
00:49:39.239 --> 00:49:46.500
And yeti, obviously, but having that greater hits of things, but also having that new element, you know, and making a twist on the old.

625
00:49:46.559 --> 00:49:50.340
It's funny, he said that he had to fight to get a dalek in there.

626
00:49:50.400 --> 00:49:54.480
And it was so obvious that you had to have Hartnell with a darling.

627
00:49:54.599 --> 00:49:59.519
Is that partly because it was supposed to be a warhead that was supposed to be the story to end season 20?

628
00:49:59.579 --> 00:50:03.179
There would have been 2 Dalek stories in a row, but that surely wouldn't have been an issue. if it was.

629
00:50:03.300 --> 00:50:07.860
It is also the 1st appearance of the Daleks in the JNT era.

630
00:50:07.920 --> 00:50:11.760
You know, he had wanted the Daleks to be a big thing at the end of season 20.

631
00:50:12.059 --> 00:50:16.440
He didn't want to just introduce them for a scene at the beginning of this, I think.

632
00:50:16.559 --> 00:50:20.099
You know, when it gets killed and that mutant's all being all shaking.

633
00:50:20.159 --> 00:50:29.159
I think that's brilliant Well, that's the other thing too, of course, because as kids, as little kids, seeing the Dalek Muse, absolutely really wants it to do.

634
00:50:29.280 --> 00:50:33.239
Richard Herndle should have sent Susan to the end of the corridor, so she didn't have to see that.

635
00:50:35.519 --> 00:50:40.380
But picking up on the themes, again, what you're saying there, Peter, it is quite extraordinary.

636
00:50:40.440 --> 00:50:48.179
I think it is a great moral of the story in that, you know, you can have certain aspects of our life, certain aspects of our society are unchanging.

637
00:50:48.239 --> 00:50:56.760
You know, there are certain values which are timeless and certain elements which are timeless, but at the same time, we have to let go, people change, people die and move on.

638
00:50:56.820 --> 00:50:59.039
And it is also a celebration of that.

639
00:50:59.099 --> 00:51:08.159
And I think that's why perhaps Nathan, it doesn't become teary in a way that you might have wanted it because in some respects, we shouldn't be sad.

640
00:51:08.280 --> 00:51:08.820
We should be happy.

641
00:51:08.880 --> 00:51:09.900
You know what I mean?

642
00:51:09.960 --> 00:51:14.159
And the goodbye, the goodbyes are never, never forever in Doctor Who.

643
00:51:14.219 --> 00:51:20.579
I didn't think I wanted it to be teary, but I did think I wanted there to be a little bit more warmth between the characters.

644
00:51:20.639 --> 00:51:21.300
That moment.

645
00:51:21.300 --> 00:51:22.320
A lot of warmth.

646
00:51:22.380 --> 00:51:44.039
Well, but the moment where Susan meets Peter Davison's doctor and just kind of checks him out and stuff and like there's nothing really there about, you know, Susan and her special relationship with the doctor, you know, they don't try and fill one another in on how they've been going or anything like that because there isn't time and that's not what this show is about.

647
00:51:44.159 --> 00:51:51.360
And also, there is a slight limitation, and of course, that Terence came on board with the show at the end of the Trout era.

648
00:51:51.420 --> 00:51:53.579
Like he was there for most of Troughton's last season.

649
00:51:53.639 --> 00:52:06.119
So Carol Anne says that during the read-through in the script, Susan doesn't say grandfather, she says, doctor, and she raised objections and it got changed.

650
00:52:06.179 --> 00:52:10.380
And for many years, people have kind of gone, well, that's Eric Saywood.

651
00:52:10.440 --> 00:52:13.679
But I do also wonder if that's also Terence just not fully understanding.

652
00:52:13.739 --> 00:52:16.980
But at the same time, you know, he's novelized Darla invasion birth.

653
00:52:17.039 --> 00:52:18.179
So it is probably say word.

654
00:52:18.239 --> 00:52:20.460
I think I think it's sabred in JNT.

655
00:52:20.519 --> 00:52:26.519
I think it's JNT because there was this weirdness about the doctor being grandfather.

656
00:52:26.579 --> 00:52:27.780
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

657
00:52:27.840 --> 00:52:28.139
Yeah.

658
00:52:28.380 --> 00:52:34.679
It's also, um, the thing that's interesting is that the 1st doctor never calls it the ship.

659
00:52:34.739 --> 00:52:36.780
Bishop, that would be great.

660
00:52:36.840 --> 00:52:37.619
That would have been great.

661
00:52:37.679 --> 00:52:38.880
Yes, that's what we...

662
00:52:38.880 --> 00:52:40.019
It's not good to be the Tartars.

663
00:52:40.079 --> 00:52:40.920
I think he does.

664
00:52:40.920 --> 00:52:42.719
I think he does him twice upon a time.

665
00:52:42.780 --> 00:52:44.219
Yes, he twice upon a time.

666
00:52:44.280 --> 00:52:44.639
Yeah, exactly.

667
00:52:53.699 --> 00:53:00.360
Can I go back to the 20th anniversary Radio Times special as a way of talking about this year?

668
00:53:00.420 --> 00:53:02.460
And don't forget a celebration.

669
00:53:02.519 --> 00:53:03.599
And a celebration.

670
00:53:03.659 --> 00:53:04.739
Peter Haning's a celebration.

671
00:53:04.800 --> 00:53:07.800
Flawed though it is, but you know, we had to take what we could.

672
00:53:07.860 --> 00:53:15.539
I mean, we were on the other side of the world compared to where the celebrations were and in that documentary about the 5 doctors.

673
00:53:15.599 --> 00:53:17.699
It's Fiona Cummings, on the credits.

674
00:53:17.760 --> 00:53:20.099
So that must have been what the end of Snake Dance or something.

675
00:53:20.219 --> 00:53:22.559
There's an announcement that Longleat's going to happen.

676
00:53:22.679 --> 00:53:28.619
And it was in the 20th anniversary radio time, especially, which I'm poring over Christmas.

677
00:53:28.679 --> 00:53:32.639
And there are photos of that event and them all there and so on like that.

678
00:53:32.699 --> 00:53:35.340
And I kind of felt jealous, but I kind of didn't.

679
00:53:35.340 --> 00:53:42.719
Like, I mean, I was completely aware that the prospect of me going to such a thing was just completely out of the question, even if I'd have known that it had been on.

680
00:53:42.780 --> 00:53:55.079
But it was just this kind of awareness, suddenly you started getting this awareness, the 1st awareness, that there was this vast community of people out there who were as obsessed with the show as you were.

681
00:53:55.139 --> 00:54:01.019
And I think it's the 20th anniversary, which crystallises that obsession in many of us.

682
00:54:01.079 --> 00:54:02.579
Thanks to what you get in the media.

683
00:54:02.639 --> 00:54:03.960
Because we did get a bit of media here.

684
00:54:04.019 --> 00:54:09.900
I mean, that's why I knew 5 Doctors was on, not as much, but there was still media and lots around Peter Davidson's visit.

685
00:54:09.900 --> 00:54:11.940
And Peter Davidson's visits and so on like that.

686
00:54:12.000 --> 00:54:13.079
So there was stuff happening.

687
00:54:13.139 --> 00:54:24.719
So you just got a sense of this greater community and that's when you start to, for the 1st time for me anyway, see the full lists of stories and understand how it all goes together and so on like that.

688
00:54:24.780 --> 00:54:31.980
So you get this sense of ears and seasons because I didn't even know that seasons worked the way they did until I saw the 20th anniversary special.

689
00:54:32.039 --> 00:54:36.780
I just saw them as, well, obviously they made a block from time worry through the hand of fear.

690
00:54:36.840 --> 00:54:37.800
Do you know what I mean?

691
00:54:37.860 --> 00:54:39.119
Because of course, of course they did.

692
00:54:39.179 --> 00:54:41.880
And then they made a block from face to evil because deadly assassin didn't exist.

693
00:54:41.940 --> 00:54:44.099
Face of evil through to invasive type. you know what I mean?

694
00:54:44.159 --> 00:54:47.699
And they obviously made the block from leisure hive through the time flight because that's the way we saw it.

695
00:54:47.760 --> 00:54:52.739
Well, these kinds of ipochal publications, which formed our fan view back then.

696
00:54:52.800 --> 00:54:54.239
And each of them brings different things.

697
00:54:54.300 --> 00:55:07.559
So for a long time, it was the making of Doctor Who, the 1976 edition, which did include all of those synopses right up to the hand affair, and which, you know, formed your idea of what the history of the program, what the breadth of it looked like.

698
00:55:07.619 --> 00:55:16.440
But then when a celebration and the radio times 20th anniversary special came out, it actually included qualitative judgement on a lot of the stories.

699
00:55:16.500 --> 00:55:19.739
Rather, unfortunately, included closer adjustment, I think.

700
00:55:19.800 --> 00:55:23.699
Most times it sort of got them right with what received wisdom was.

701
00:55:23.760 --> 00:55:28.800
I can remember it saying about Talons Wen Chang that had few peers, which is true.

702
00:55:28.860 --> 00:55:36.119
But there were certain things which were highly personal judgements which then seeped into fandom and never really went away.

703
00:55:36.179 --> 00:55:37.380
The gunfighters?

704
00:55:37.440 --> 00:55:41.940
Oh, the gunfighters, for instance, I mean, I happen to think gunfighters is rubbish, but I understand most people don't.

705
00:55:42.239 --> 00:55:50.820
And I think it was so important to have those publications because it gave you an idea not just of what Doctor Who had been, but what other people thought of Doctor Who.

706
00:55:50.880 --> 00:55:51.119
Yes.

707
00:55:51.119 --> 00:55:52.980
Whereas previously that had only been in your own head.

708
00:55:53.039 --> 00:55:54.840
Just astonishing.

709
00:55:54.900 --> 00:56:00.059
And I think the link to the fact that video recorders were starting to become more ubiquitous.

710
00:56:00.119 --> 00:56:06.840
Kind of like, you know, the way everyone started getting a television from the coronation in Britain and everyone started getting a television here with the Melbourne Olympics.

711
00:56:06.900 --> 00:56:20.099
The 2 for me go together that the 5 doctors and and being able to record it, not on an audio cassette, but actually on a videotape where I could watch the real program, again, and you never look back.

712
00:56:20.159 --> 00:56:24.900
I think it's really interesting you talk about the fact that this is the 1st time we actually thought about seasons.

713
00:56:24.960 --> 00:56:31.019
I've never really thought about that before, but this is looking at that radio times, things you suddenly got the different eras.

714
00:56:31.079 --> 00:56:36.960
And I remember in the front cover, didn't they have all the different credits of all the different...

715
00:56:37.019 --> 00:56:40.739
They had a photo.

716
00:56:40.860 --> 00:56:41.940
Oh, how could they do that?

717
00:56:42.000 --> 00:56:42.780
How could they do that?

718
00:56:42.900 --> 00:56:49.980
But I also think it's very interesting too, that this only got 7.700000 viewers and came 54th or 2nd or something for the week.

719
00:56:50.039 --> 00:56:54.599
When the 3 doctors got at its peak, 11.9 was top 10.

720
00:56:54.780 --> 00:57:06.840
But I'm just saying, like, there's a shift, like, this was still more than most of the 20th season, but still a significant, I would have expected it to have gotten around 10000000 and I don't know why that is.

721
00:57:06.900 --> 00:57:07.559
I do.

722
00:57:07.559 --> 00:57:20.820
I believe it's because they made a bad call in having it go out in children in need because children in need is made up of tiny vignettes, whereas suddenly you're taking 90 minute chunk out of that and just making it into a drama.

723
00:57:20.940 --> 00:57:23.159
That's not what people tune in to children in need for.

724
00:57:23.219 --> 00:57:24.239
And so I believe.

725
00:57:24.360 --> 00:57:27.659
It's on in the background while you're having maybe a party in donation.

726
00:57:27.719 --> 00:57:30.659
It needed to be its own thing, and then I believe it would have actually attracted me.

727
00:57:30.719 --> 00:57:31.139
That was a shame.

728
00:57:31.199 --> 00:57:32.760
Should have been shown on Saturday night or something, Frank.

729
00:57:32.820 --> 00:57:38.519
So if you think it was on its own dedicated night and promoted as such as this big thing that they could have got.

730
00:57:38.579 --> 00:57:48.900
I've always found it really fascinating and I kind of thought of it as a bit of a turning point that the show wasn't as popular with the general public at this and it's all about to unravel.

731
00:57:48.960 --> 00:58:07.139
Well, in fact, it's funny, but when we did the 2nd episode on Day of the Doctor, we talked about how, like the 20th anniversary, the day of the doctor kind of marks a kind of end of the program.

732
00:58:07.139 --> 00:58:26.039
And in the 80s, of course, Doctor Who is going to stop remembering that it's set in the corner of your living room and that it's something that the whole family can watch. and it's going to become a thing, that is more directed at rusted on fans.

733
00:58:26.099 --> 00:58:32.159
And of course, we are just going to gradually see the decline of the show in all sorts of ways.

734
00:58:32.219 --> 00:58:33.900
And that doesn't mean that the show gets worse.

735
00:58:33.960 --> 00:58:39.179
Some of my favourite stories come after the 5 doctors and some great Doctor Who is still in there.

736
00:58:39.239 --> 00:58:43.980
But there is a kind of sense in which we're heading inexorably towards the end.

737
00:58:44.099 --> 00:58:46.860
Yeah, because I think I was the one bringing that up.

738
00:58:46.920 --> 00:58:50.699
There is a real parallel between the 5 doctors and the day of the doctor.

739
00:58:50.699 --> 00:58:56.760
And I agree with what you're saying, that the show does start to eat itself as you move all through the rest of the 80s.

740
00:58:56.820 --> 00:59:02.940
But yeah, some of my favourite stories are in that era, but I think it doesn't eat itself as much as it might have.

741
00:59:03.000 --> 00:59:06.960
In fact, I think it really starts eating itself when you get to something like season 23.

742
00:59:07.199 --> 00:59:13.079
It's that 85 cancellation which shakes everyone's confidence as to what this program is.

743
00:59:13.139 --> 00:59:28.800
And in many ways, it's unavoidable because when you have a huge peak like this, a peak of public interest, you know, all throughout that anniversary season in 2013 and all throughout 1983, there's a lot of attention focussed on the show, really the only way to go from there is down.

744
00:59:28.860 --> 00:59:35.519
And that's what I said with the day of the doctor as well, is that there are so many appearances of the doctor who people in chat shows.

745
00:59:35.579 --> 00:59:46.260
Like there are 1983 is littered with clips of the various doctors and companions in various combinations on everything from Blue Peter at one end to like nationwide or something from the other.

746
00:59:46.320 --> 00:59:47.820
Pebble millet one and everything.

747
00:59:47.880 --> 00:59:50.219
They do the light, they do the series, they do everything.

748
00:59:50.219 --> 00:59:53.940
And it's not just the fact that the public are sick of it.

749
00:59:54.000 --> 00:59:57.480
It's the fact that the PR people are sick of it.

750
00:59:57.539 --> 00:59:59.579
They feel like, well, we've had those people on.

751
00:59:59.639 --> 01:00:01.980
We don't need to promote the new series.

752
01:00:01.980 --> 01:00:03.300
Oh, Doctor Who's been around forever.

753
01:00:03.360 --> 01:00:04.260
We don't need to worry about that.

754
01:00:04.320 --> 01:00:07.980
They move on and I think that actually has a detrimental effect in it.

755
01:00:08.039 --> 01:00:14.219
It's like you lose the soft diplomacy and you otherwise get. everyone's eyes are on it, including the BBC hierarchy.

756
01:00:14.280 --> 01:00:15.059
Yes.

757
01:00:15.119 --> 01:00:18.719
And that's also to do with changes of personnel at the top. that starts coming.

758
01:00:18.780 --> 01:00:22.199
So a parallel thing that happens here with David Hill taking over the ABC.

759
01:00:22.260 --> 01:00:27.480
David Hill is our Michael Grade for what he does to the way the show is presented in Australia.

760
01:00:27.539 --> 01:00:35.880
And as well as other aspects that he, quote unquote, modernises the ABC, like what Michael Gray was trying to do to the BBC, some of which needed to be done.

761
01:00:35.940 --> 01:00:36.360
Absolutely.

762
01:00:36.360 --> 01:00:38.639
But...

763
01:00:38.639 --> 01:00:41.820
A certain amount of baby was thrown out with the bathwater in both instance.

764
01:00:41.880 --> 01:00:53.099
But the point is that you were inevitably going to have a hangover, and the problem with the 5 doctors hangover is, I think, it lasts basically until season 25 or 26.

765
01:00:53.280 --> 01:00:58.260
Basically, I think the show is starting to come out of the hangover when the rug is pulled from under it.

766
01:00:58.260 --> 01:01:02.159
And I wonder whether the 50th anniversary hangover is actually still with us.

767
01:01:02.219 --> 01:01:12.780
The problem of focussing so much for your attention on the anniversary in 1983 is that it lays clear that a lot of the viewer's fondness for the show actually dated from a few years back.

768
01:01:12.840 --> 01:01:20.519
So the 1983 season was by any marker, not as popular as, say, the Hinchcliffe or Williams eras.

769
01:01:20.639 --> 01:01:22.260
And I think it suddenly becomes clear.

770
01:01:22.320 --> 01:01:26.820
In things like the ratings, even though Longleat was oversubscribed with people.

771
01:01:26.880 --> 01:01:28.500
We're talking about 50,000 people here.

772
01:01:28.559 --> 01:01:30.300
We're not talking about 15 million.

773
01:01:30.420 --> 01:01:39.599
And so I think suddenly, everybody, including the papers and the BBC hierarchy, realised that this was an old property, even though they were celebrating 20 years.

774
01:01:39.719 --> 01:01:57.239
And certainly the site of those doctors at the top of Rasselon's tower in the tomb and Tom not being there, you've got these 3 very old men and P. and Tom, who had been the doctor for 7 years is nowhere to be seen.

775
01:01:57.960 --> 01:02:01.019
That basically a 3rd of the program is missing.

776
01:02:01.079 --> 01:02:01.920
Yeah, sad.

777
01:02:01.980 --> 01:02:07.320
And also, this is entirely understandable because you have one costume designer doing all these costumes.

778
01:02:07.380 --> 01:02:21.840
He comes up with new versions of the old doctor's costumes that look sympathetic to each other, but that means that that shot The predominant colours are beige, and tan, and burgundy.

779
01:02:21.840 --> 01:02:22.679
And pink.

780
01:02:22.679 --> 01:02:25.079
Oh, I just mean the doctors.

781
01:02:25.139 --> 01:02:29.579
But yeah, the girls are all put in shades of pink and purple.

782
01:02:29.639 --> 01:02:32.699
Like, it's possibly the worst outfit Sarah has.

783
01:02:32.760 --> 01:02:33.960
Oh, no, not possibly.

784
01:02:34.559 --> 01:02:36.420
Oh, it's awful.

785
01:02:36.480 --> 01:02:37.619
Another nomination?

786
01:02:37.679 --> 01:02:38.760
No, no, no.

787
01:02:38.820 --> 01:02:48.179
I met up with Elizabeth Stain once in London and it was a rainy day and she emerged from the tube in this see-through plastic raincoat thing.

788
01:02:48.239 --> 01:02:54.780
And I was with my friend Sarah and we just looked at each other and going, what the hell is, this is out of the 5 doctors.

789
01:02:54.900 --> 01:02:57.000
Personal ring.

790
01:02:57.059 --> 01:02:58.139
I just have to throw that.

791
01:02:58.199 --> 01:03:00.239
I mean, we have to be thankful for small mercies.

792
01:03:00.300 --> 01:03:04.739
There is a different universe, not too far from ours where she's wearing the Andy-pandy outfit.

793
01:03:04.800 --> 01:03:06.659
I would have been brave.

794
01:03:08.219 --> 01:03:12.000
But, you know, she's leaving her house at the beginning because she's going to a costume party.

795
01:03:12.360 --> 01:03:15.000
And everyone's like throughout the whole story.

796
01:03:15.059 --> 01:03:15.539
What are you wearing?

797
01:03:15.599 --> 01:03:16.679
I was on my way to a party.

798
01:03:16.739 --> 01:03:18.659
I was meant to be in Rio.

799
01:03:18.840 --> 01:03:25.679
I think the shame, as we were kind of touching on then, was that Tom basically finally said no, he wouldn't do it.

800
01:03:25.739 --> 01:03:30.000
And there's all the good reasons in the world why he shouldn't serve for him.

801
01:03:30.119 --> 01:03:33.599
And I think after 40 years, 42 years.

802
01:03:33.659 --> 01:03:35.699
I think I might have forgiven him for not being in it.

803
01:03:35.760 --> 01:03:45.360
Although I think aspects have worked better because I think he would have been the starring doctor in it, that would have been, that I think Peter would have actually highlighted more the fact that the show is not what it had been.

804
01:03:45.420 --> 01:03:55.380
This is the height of the era of Tom being difficult, nasty, and basically being a god of the doctors, and that extends through to the 30th anniversary.

805
01:03:55.500 --> 01:03:58.380
Well, appearing at long lease only on his own panel, not with the others, etc.

806
01:03:58.440 --> 01:04:04.019
And also in the US conventions, not even in different panels, but being in a different, practically in a different facility.

807
01:04:04.079 --> 01:04:04.920
A different universe.

808
01:04:05.039 --> 01:04:05.820
Yeah, to the other.

809
01:04:05.880 --> 01:04:11.099
You know, he would not even appear, he would not, he refused to appear on the same stage with them all at the same time, even if they're all in the same building.

810
01:04:11.159 --> 01:04:16.739
I think that's when my sympathy goes, ah, come on, dude. you know, I think just just just keep it real.

811
01:04:16.800 --> 01:04:21.900
But yes, but thank goodness we got him in those clips and wasn't it serendipity that Charter was cancelled?

812
01:04:21.960 --> 01:04:24.360
You know, and I didn't know anything really about it.

813
01:04:24.840 --> 01:04:27.900
No, thanks to the 20th anniversary radio time.

814
01:04:27.960 --> 01:04:28.320
That's right.

815
01:04:28.380 --> 01:04:31.500
So it just felt real and it felt organic within the story.

816
01:04:31.559 --> 01:04:35.039
I was confused by the clip at the end that they didn't sort of go back to the same point.

817
01:04:35.099 --> 01:04:39.900
It was just him lying on the ashevelton, you know, a terrible car park.

818
01:04:39.960 --> 01:04:40.500
Yeah, yeah.

819
01:04:40.559 --> 01:04:49.019
But you see, still, those 75 seconds from Shada are the highlights of that story. like Charter is terrible in many many ways.

820
01:04:49.079 --> 01:04:52.920
And that those 75 seconds belong to the 5 doctors, not to shutter.

821
01:04:53.039 --> 01:05:03.119
Yeah, we all pored over those 75 seconds for decades thinking, wow, Shada was just going to be this beautifully shot magical, wonderful story, and there is much to recommend, much of it.

822
01:05:03.179 --> 01:05:09.780
I'm not as down on it as you are, but, you know, having seen the stuff that they did shoot and then what the stuff that they didn't shoot.

823
01:05:09.840 --> 01:05:16.860
And I can imagine it would have looked exactly like the Armageddon factor, those later episodes, endless wandering around corridors with not a lot happening.

824
01:05:16.920 --> 01:05:20.880
I think Shada's reputation was only served by not being completed.

825
01:05:20.940 --> 01:05:25.559
Yeah, and it just goes to show, you know, what do you have to do to kill Douglas Adams jokes?

826
01:05:25.619 --> 01:05:27.300
Get Pennant Roberts to direct them?

827
01:05:27.360 --> 01:05:28.380
Is the answer?

828
01:05:28.440 --> 01:05:30.780
Roberts is a mass murder.

829
01:05:31.800 --> 01:05:38.940
But to the ending of this show, like I was mortified. by them turning into statues with the living dead.

830
01:05:39.000 --> 01:05:41.280
That really freaked me out and looks wonderful.

831
01:05:41.340 --> 01:05:56.940
But then the whole ending with them all sort of meeting each other and being jovial and saying goodbye and then we're all going into the Tartars and they will go separately and then Pete telling Chancellor Favo that she's got full powers until he returns and all of that ending stuff is just so warm and wonderful.

832
01:05:57.000 --> 01:05:59.280
And it just warms my heart.

833
01:05:59.340 --> 01:06:09.599
And it's Terrence, because Terrence creates that backstory for the doctor in the war games that he goes on the run from his own people in a rackety old TARDIS.

834
01:06:09.659 --> 01:06:21.360
He creates that and he brings it back and it's just terrific and it has one of my favourite Peter Davidson lines, which is when he says to Tegan, sometimes Tegan, you take my breath away.

835
01:06:21.420 --> 01:06:22.260
Exactly.

836
01:06:22.260 --> 01:06:23.099
It's so funny.

837
01:06:23.159 --> 01:06:24.119
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

838
01:06:24.179 --> 01:06:36.960
But that sequence, Todd, you're right with them all, you know, with the faces coming alive behind the, the, the plastic and just as the camera is panning across, you know, your place is prepared, Lord President Barusa.

839
01:06:37.019 --> 01:06:43.320
That is an example of why I think Peter Moffa is a good director because he shows you what you need to see at precisely the right moment.

840
01:06:43.380 --> 01:06:45.659
It's just as it passes over the blank slate.

841
01:06:45.719 --> 01:06:49.019
It's beautifully done, actually, because is it Philip Latham?

842
01:06:49.079 --> 01:06:49.500
Yes.

843
01:06:49.559 --> 01:06:54.360
He is being shot in front of the place where he's finally going to end up.

844
01:06:54.420 --> 01:06:57.900
He turns around to look at it and disappears.

845
01:06:57.960 --> 01:06:59.639
It's just very, very well.

846
01:06:59.760 --> 01:07:00.960
Simple, but elegant.

847
01:07:01.019 --> 01:07:03.780
And I think that's how I would summarise the entirety of the story.

848
01:07:03.840 --> 01:07:08.219
It is simple in that it's uncomplicated, but that's what makes it so elegant.

849
01:07:08.280 --> 01:07:11.519
Well, it had to be uncomplicated. because what I was trying to do.

850
01:07:11.579 --> 01:07:13.019
It didn't have to be elegant.

851
01:07:13.139 --> 01:07:15.059
It's elegant because of Terence.

852
01:07:15.119 --> 01:07:17.699
Well, I'm also giving piece of Moffatt praise there.

853
01:07:17.760 --> 01:07:19.199
Yeah, let's not do that.

854
01:07:19.260 --> 01:07:20.460
Come on let's not go overboard.

855
01:07:44.519 --> 01:07:52.980
Well, that's all the time we have for this week. will be back next week to discuss Terrence's first original Doctor Who novel, Timeworm Exodus.

856
01:07:53.159 --> 01:08:11.219
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts, and you can keep up with us on our website, 500yearDiary.com, where you'll find our social media links, as well as links to all of our other podcasts, including our other Doctor Who podcasts, flight through entirety, and the 2nd great and bountiful human empire.

857
01:08:11.460 --> 01:08:19.439
Until next time, remember that however you're feeling about things right now, it's still a good idea to accept that party invitation.

858
01:08:19.500 --> 01:08:21.960
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

859
01:08:22.079 --> 01:08:22.979
Good night.

860
01:08:23.039 --> 01:08:23.819
See you soon.

861
01:08:23.880 --> 01:08:25.439
It is how it all started.

862
01:08:25.500 --> 01:08:27.060
Good night doctor.

863
01:08:27.600 --> 01:08:29.039
Doctors.

864
01:08:39.840 --> 01:08:47.340
That was 500 year diary, starring Todd Bealby, Nathan Bottomley, Peter Griffiths, Brendan Jones, and Simon Moore.

865
01:08:47.340 --> 01:08:50.100
The theme was composed by Cameron Lamb.

866
01:08:50.159 --> 01:09:01.079
This episode, the quintessential crisis, was recorded on Doctor Who's 62nd anniversary, the 23rd of November, 2025, and released on the 21st of December.

867
01:09:01.680 --> 01:09:13.500
Here at the flight through Entirety Cinematic Universe, we'd like to thank everyone who listens to our podcasts, particularly those of you who encourage us with likes, jokes, and compliments online.

868
01:09:13.560 --> 01:09:15.000
We love you all.

869
01:09:15.060 --> 01:09:19.560
We'll be back for one more episode after Christmas, and we look forward to seeing you all then.

870
01:09:25.619 --> 01:09:32.640
I do have something which might be a tag because I was just thinking about, you know, Terence and Bob Holmes.

871
01:09:32.699 --> 01:09:41.460
So I was like, Terence starts on Doctor Who, finds there's a gap in scripts, finds this old script called The Space Trap, and calls him Bob Holmes.

872
01:09:41.460 --> 01:09:46.500
And then that starts Bob Holmes' relationship with Doctor Who.

873
01:09:46.560 --> 01:09:52.800
Terence then kills the show, as you've said before, with Malcolm Hulk, and then says, oh, Bob, I'm taking over.

874
01:09:52.859 --> 01:09:54.960
Can you come in and reinvent the show then a year later?

875
01:09:55.020 --> 01:09:56.760
Bob, can you reinvent the show again, please?

876
01:09:56.819 --> 01:10:02.880
Then, Bob, you can take a year off, but then come in and reinvent the show because he can travel around again now.

877
01:10:02.939 --> 01:10:06.239
Oh, can you invent us a new companion, please?

878
01:10:06.359 --> 01:10:07.859
And by the way, you're in the Middle Ages.

879
01:10:07.920 --> 01:10:08.939
I know you hate it, Bob.

880
01:10:09.000 --> 01:10:11.039
Bob, now you've got my job.

881
01:10:11.100 --> 01:10:12.420
Can you give me a job, please?

882
01:10:13.020 --> 01:10:15.600
Bob, don't rewrite me that much.

883
01:10:15.659 --> 01:10:16.500
Thank you very much.

884
01:10:16.619 --> 01:10:20.399
And then Bob says to Terence. come in and write lighthouses.

885
01:10:20.460 --> 01:10:21.840
Well, I don't know anything about the lighthouses.

886
01:10:21.899 --> 01:10:23.880
Well, do your damn job and research it, Terence.

887
01:10:23.939 --> 01:10:32.279
Then Crispidby comes along and has no scripts and looks in a drawer and finds this old script called the vampire mutations and calls in Terence Dix.

888
01:10:32.340 --> 01:10:37.979
And then finally, for the 5 doctors, You've got Bob saying, this is absolutely ridiculous.

889
01:10:38.039 --> 01:10:40.140
And Terence says, yes, Bob, you're quite right.

890
01:10:40.199 --> 01:10:42.359
Thankfully, I'm absolutely ridiculous.

891
01:10:42.420 --> 01:10:44.340
So I'm going to do this.

892
01:10:44.399 --> 01:10:50.939
And they actually do weave around each other through their whole time on Doctor Who together.

893
01:10:51.000 --> 01:10:54.720
Because even though this is Terence's last TV script for Doctor Who.

894
01:10:54.840 --> 01:10:59.819
You know, Bob will write one next year and the year after and the year after that.

895
01:10:59.880 --> 01:11:14.520
And in a way, Terrence doing this kind of means Bob continues to come back because I can imagine if Bob had been forced to write the 6 doctors on the planet Maladoom with Dr. Robot Will and Robot Susan.

896
01:11:14.579 --> 01:11:15.659
Good then we got her.

897
01:11:15.720 --> 01:11:16.199
Yeah.

898
01:11:16.619 --> 01:11:19.680
But, you know, he...

899
01:11:19.680 --> 01:11:21.060
We always had robots.

900
01:11:21.479 --> 01:11:23.640
Played by Jane Asher.

901
01:11:23.699 --> 01:11:30.720
But, you know, I can easily imagine Bob saying, never darken my door again, John Nathan Turner and Eric Saywood.

902
01:11:30.779 --> 01:11:37.800
Instead, Eric Saywood takes the 5 doctors and, you know, says, this isn't Bob's thing.

903
01:11:37.859 --> 01:11:43.619
It's Terence's thing, but then says, Bob, we do really respect you as a writer, bring us your idea.

904
01:11:43.680 --> 01:11:45.539
And it's the caves of Andrazone.

905
01:11:45.600 --> 01:11:57.720
I mean, again, another universe, not too far from ours, where Bob Holmes writes the caves around Dasani, and Terrence Dix writes the slot occupied by the dilemma, and the entire sweep of the series looks very different.

906
01:11:57.779 --> 01:12:03.359
Does, like, John Nathan Turner doesn't want, like, old Toots.

907
01:12:03.359 --> 01:12:04.380
Yeah, yeah.

908
01:12:04.439 --> 01:12:05.520
And one's old toots.

909
01:12:05.579 --> 01:12:06.659
Bob Holmes specifically.

910
01:12:06.720 --> 01:12:08.520
I don't want that old tour.

911
01:12:08.579 --> 01:12:14.100
He was threatened by people who he felt had a great humanology Doctor Who than he did, which is bizarre because he'd been working on the show.

912
01:12:14.159 --> 01:12:14.819
Yeah, he was there.

913
01:12:16.739 --> 01:12:17.699
Junior Robert, nevertheless.

914
01:12:17.819 --> 01:12:24.779
Same reason Douglas Campfield doesn't direct this because apparently Douglas actually approached JNT in 1980 saying, oh, I've been away for a while.

915
01:12:24.840 --> 01:12:28.199
I wouldn't mind doing one again and JNT basically said to him, no, I only want new people.

916
01:12:28.260 --> 01:12:30.720
And then, so then...

917
01:12:30.840 --> 01:12:33.300
Well, then when JNT...

918
01:12:33.899 --> 01:12:35.880
Well...

919
01:12:36.840 --> 01:12:42.600
Well, how that worked out was Warris Hussein was kind of interested, but then, kind of not.

920
01:12:42.659 --> 01:12:50.399
So JNT approached Douglas Canfield, who basically said, um, 2 years ago, you told me you weren't interested, I have other things to do.

921
01:12:50.460 --> 01:12:51.840
I don't need Doctor Who.

922
01:12:51.899 --> 01:12:52.920
Yeah.

923
01:12:52.979 --> 01:13:01.079
I mean, all of that's quite unfortunate, but maybe like having Terrence like breaks the seal and lets them, let's say we'd pitch.

924
01:13:01.140 --> 01:13:01.920
I suspect so.

925
01:13:02.460 --> 01:13:08.220
And also JNT, even he couldn't be unaware that if there was an elder statesman of the program, It was Terence.

926
01:13:08.279 --> 01:13:09.479
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

927
01:13:09.600 --> 01:13:22.439
But also, you know, that Bob Holmes is, you know, perhaps the best writer in the classic series and why would you, you know, Eric likes him and wants to bring him back and he's willing, you know, and it did work out quite well, I think.

928
01:13:22.500 --> 01:13:25.079
In some ways, it's miraculous that Bob Holmes not working.

929
01:13:25.140 --> 01:13:25.979
They turn to Terrence.

930
01:13:26.039 --> 01:13:28.380
They could have turned to, I don't know Johnny Byrne.

931
01:13:28.439 --> 01:13:30.000
Yeah, yeah, yeah Exactly.

932
01:13:30.239 --> 01:13:30.779
Actually, yeah.

933
01:13:30.840 --> 01:13:32.520
Or Baker, Dave Martin.

934
01:13:34.140 --> 01:13:36.539
Were they not speaking at this?

935
01:13:36.600 --> 01:13:37.739
No, they aren't.

936
01:13:37.800 --> 01:13:39.899
Also actually, but you say that, Peter.

937
01:13:39.960 --> 01:13:50.039
Is that also partly, do they turned Terence partly because and maybe the ice is breaking, because isn't this when kind of conventions around the 20th anniversary is when conventions starts to become a thing, more of a thing?

938
01:13:50.100 --> 01:13:51.659
And so a large scale thing.

939
01:13:51.779 --> 01:13:54.960
And so these people... would have been crossing over with Terrence all the time.

940
01:13:55.020 --> 01:13:57.000
Exactly, in a way that he might not have before.

941
01:13:57.060 --> 01:13:57.840
Yeah.

942
01:13:57.840 --> 01:14:09.420
Well, there's the famous story of Terrence getting the pitch and sort of Eric was getting very concerned about Bob Scripps and found out Terrence was at a convention and found out the hotel got put through.

943
01:14:09.479 --> 01:14:13.439
It's yes, receptionist, it's very urgent. forgetting the time difference.

944
01:14:13.500 --> 01:14:19.859
So waking Terence up at 4 AM to say, hey, can we book you as a backup for Bob Holmes?

945
01:14:19.979 --> 01:14:23.220
To which Terence said, that's no way to treat a writer like Bob Holmes.

946
01:14:23.279 --> 01:14:26.220
And come to think of it, it's no way to treat a writer like me either.

947
01:14:26.279 --> 01:14:28.380
And then it is clumsy.

948
01:14:28.439 --> 01:14:28.619
Yeah.

949
01:14:28.680 --> 01:14:36.420
But then agreed in principle and at his panel in the morning got up and said, I'm writing the 20th anniversary special.

950
01:14:36.479 --> 01:14:37.800
No, that part.

951
01:14:37.859 --> 01:14:41.640
He must have known that Bob was never going to tolerate me.

952
01:14:41.880 --> 01:14:44.460
It's so not him at all.

953
01:14:44.699 --> 01:14:51.899
Holmes isn't going to write a big light entertainment celebration spectacular of Doctor Who that goes for 90 minutes.

954
01:14:51.960 --> 01:14:53.159
They would just never have happened.

955
01:14:53.220 --> 01:15:02.579
But I love your summary, um, and evolve into interweaving through the history of Doctor Who and creating the show that we know and love.

956
01:15:02.640 --> 01:15:06.119
I just think we have so much to thank Terrence Dix for and he's right there.

957
01:15:06.119 --> 01:15:13.979
Up with verity and the original crew of sustaining this show and building it and making it the show that we love.

958
01:15:14.039 --> 01:15:27.659
I don't think we made the point last week, week before, um, in that essentially the, um, the lighthouse pitch was just uh, homes having his revenge.

959
01:15:27.720 --> 01:15:29.520
Yeah, Time Warrior, isn't it?

960
01:15:29.579 --> 01:15:30.119
Yeah.

961
01:15:30.180 --> 01:15:31.199
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

962
01:15:31.260 --> 01:15:31.859
Yeah.

963
01:15:31.920 --> 01:15:41.760
I do think they did miss a trick, though, with those wonderful closing lines of with that wonderful closing line of, after all, that's how it all started.

964
01:15:42.420 --> 01:15:49.439
I think they could have used that properly in the seasons that were to come because that's kind of forgotten.

965
01:15:49.500 --> 01:15:55.020
It's vaguely remembered in child of a time lord, but not really.

966
01:15:55.079 --> 01:16:00.060
I think they could have made something more and kind of reset the show in a way that they didn't.

967
01:16:00.180 --> 01:16:04.739
See, also day of the doctor, where the doctor doesn't go hunting for galafrey.

968
01:16:04.800 --> 01:16:05.399
Yeah, yeah.

969
01:16:05.460 --> 01:16:06.359
Just stumbles across it.

970
01:16:06.420 --> 01:16:08.340
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

971
01:16:08.399 --> 01:16:09.659
I think we wind it up.

972
01:16:09.720 --> 01:16:10.739
I think we do, yeah, yeah.

973
01:16:10.979 --> 01:16:11.640
I think we're done.