WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-05-03 at 08:50:02

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to 500 year diary.

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The only Doctor Who podcast that's very much still the podcast we

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once were.

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Thank goodness.

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I'm Bill.

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I'm Pat.

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I'm John.

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I'm a waxwork they got in from Madame Dussauds.

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And I'm Peter.

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It's the 23rd of November, 1983.

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If you're in the US, or it's the 25th of November, if you're one

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of the 7700000 people in the UK watching this year's children in

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need special, or it's the 13th of December in Australia, or the

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22nd of January 1984, if you missed it in Sydney, because of that

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electrical storm, it's very complicated.

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It's been 20 years since Ian and Barbara found that police box in

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a junkyard that can move anywhere in time and space, and to

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celebrate that fact, Tonight, we're watching a bunch of elderly

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actors walking slowly towards a tower where they will trick their

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enemy into a trap and then all go back home again.

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Is it Terrence's crowning achievement?

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Let's find out as we discuss the 5 doctors.

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Should we talk about how we first watch this?

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So, I was staying at a friend's place in the entrance, which is

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just north of Sydney.

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And so although there was a storm, and although I did have to rush

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out in the middle of the episode to help his grandmother take the

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clothes off the line, I did actually get to watch the whole thing

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uninterrupted.

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So you went outside, got the clothes in the middle.

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Then rush back in.

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And missed nothing, basically.

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Was the entrance above between or below?

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Above. above exactly.

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This would have been at the end of year 6 going into year seven.

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For us, yes.

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Yes, for us.

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And I remember.

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So we don't know each other yet?

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No, we don't.

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We met each other in February 84.

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That's right.

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So just before we met, Simon.

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I remember it being a dark and stormy night, you know, eagerly

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anticipating to push, play record on our, on our beta recording

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machine, and I was waiting for the, you know, the intro just to

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come in.

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And then this black and white thing appeared.

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I thought, what the hell is this?

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And then suddenly I realised, so I cut off part of William

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Hartnell's speech because I was just so sort of, 0 my god, it's

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all happening.

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So I just remember that.

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So again, you know, 1983 is kind of peak VCR arrival for a lot of

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people, I think, who were neither early adopters nor late

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adopters.

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And we had not long got ours.

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And I was had a videotape that had been given to me for this

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purpose.

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I was about to record for Keeps, my 1st ever Doctor Who story.

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There was a repeat run happening at the same time.

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We were in the middle of season 14.

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But were you recording on VHS or Beta?

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VHS.

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BC, we never had BC.

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Yeah, God.

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And then, so I think it was scheduled for 7.30 because I think

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that's before the 7.30 report it started.

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So it was after the ABC news at 7 o'clock, but you still had a

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regular Doctor Who episode at...

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It was part 2 of Robots of Death.

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Right, there you go.

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At 6.30 and I think that I saw all of robots of death, and then

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during the electrical storm, the power went out.

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And I didn't cry.

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It's that it was too serious for tears.

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I was absolutely shattered and I sat there.

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I sat there in front of the dark television in a dark room with

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this electrical storm going outside, waiting, 7.30, right.

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It started, and I'm missing it. 8 o'clock, still blackout, at

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about 830, about half an hour before the end, all the power comes

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on, and I pick it up from the chessboard sequence, so the cyber

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leader is just being shot by the master, and so I get the whole

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easiest pie thing, and everything from there was my 1st experience

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of the 5 doctors.

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And it's fascinating to remember when I was watching it for this

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again, last night.

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I was thinking about, wow, watching back that final 3rd as the

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only example of the story.

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And for some reason, I didn't hit play record.

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I just thought, oh, because I can't have the whole thing.

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Can't have it.

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And it'll be on again.

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And just thinking, how did it all, how did this all fit together?

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They're all walking through these corridors in this tower and

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Peter Davidson is on gala fray and so on.

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So it was quite extraordinary.

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Well, of course, I'm of the same vintage as Simon and Todd.

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We didn't know each other at this point, but I'd been primed for

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the 5 doctors because 1983 for fans in the UK, but also I think

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for fans of our vintage was a banner year.

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There was fantastic run of repeats that year.

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We got some pertweese that I had never seen, which was like manna

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from heaven.

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The 525 line ones like that.

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That's right. awesome thing.

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That's right.

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So we usually got the 9 per weeks, the exister on film or on

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originated on 16 mil film or on 625 line.

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But this year we got 6 new stories that I hadn't seen before, which

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were frontier in space in a selection from season 8 and season

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nine.

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So I was already at peak fan.

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Then we went on a trip to the Macquarie Centre, which is a

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shopping centre.

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Which is brand spanking.

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It was you.

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That's right.

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We're going to be able to visit my cousins and we went there

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because it was a day out.

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And walking past a newsagent, staring out at me was the Radio

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Times 20th anniversary special.

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Oh, wow.

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And of course, my fan heart leapt.

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I'd already had my pocket money for that week, but my parents very

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kindly decided to advance me.

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The money from the next week to buy this, and I pored over that

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magazine, day in and day out, looking at the synopses of old

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stories, reading...

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And stories yet to go.

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Absolutely.

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And so I knew that the 5 doctors was coming.

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I knew that there was going to be something like I just didn't

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know when.

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And then when I saw it in the TV guide, I was ready and even

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though we got the storm, it didn't break the transmission for us.

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Oh, okay.

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See, that's really interesting because like, I can't remember when

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I got that radio times.

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For me, it has to have been after the 5 doctors.

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I think it was, um, I may have seen it in the shops, but then I

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think I got it for Christmas.

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So it's only 11th of December, so it's only even 2 weeks

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afterwards.

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Because I remember reading through it in all the synopses at the

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back and they mean utterly shocked by the fact that there was

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going to be a new doctor and actually absolutely overjoyed because

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I was in my total anti peak phase.

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But that's all I remember about that, and I don't remember my

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sequence of when I got that.

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So, and Brendan.

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So I was 2 months old.

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As old as that.

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Oh, so yes, I was born October 83.

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Old enough to form a fan opinion.

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However, my dad did, it seems recorded the original broadcast.

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It's hard to know when dad recorded stuff just because we already

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had a bunch of tapes when I got into it in about 1988.

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They were plentiful by the time.

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They were plentiful.

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And I do recall that our copy of the 5 doctors had during the

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starburst of the opening credits, a sort of neon ABC logo.

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I don't know if that's on the original or whatever, because I

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remember when I got the very 1st DVD in 1999, I was a bit

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surprised not to see it on there because by that time I knew that

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there was money from the ABC for the 5 doctors and what have you.

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So, yeah, I guess that was just knowing what I now know about

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television just something that they inserted in the playout centre

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you know what I mean?

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Or maybe it was the ident fading into.

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But then again, the titles aren't up 1st and the heart and all is

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definitely in there on the VHS copy.

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I have recently got the equipment to start digitising my VHSs, so

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I will find out.

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Um, as for what I thought at the time.

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Well, it was kind of one of my only 2 ways to watch the 1st 2

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doctors because we didn't have any heart and all.

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And I didn't like watching black and white stuff until about 1990

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and that included the pertly black and whites.

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You know, I just watched Colour and just one day as a kid, I stuck

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on the mind dropper when I was, like, had a cold or something.

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And by the time I sat down on the sofa, I'm like, oh, well, I'm

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not getting up to change it.

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I'll just watch it and, you know, got into watching black and

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white that way.

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It's hard to remember my 1st thoughts of it, but it was one that I

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regularly rewatched because there were lots of doctors in it and

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lots of excitement.

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I mean, the regular rewatch is the thing because just to extend on

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my story, if I may.

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So I'm watching it for the 1st time in its entirety in the January

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afternoon repeat, and it was only because dad noticed it in the

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guide, the previous day.

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So I didn't have so the extraordinary thing is I didn't even have

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weeks or even days of anticipation for it.

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Because Doctor Hoop was not showing regularly at that time. didn't

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show us.

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Oh no, it was like Sunday afternoon.

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It was completely random...

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Right, but it wasn't even on at that time, like it was taking its

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break.

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Yes, it was taking us break because it was January.

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It was like the school hold days.

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And so it was just this complete fluke that I got in.

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And we were at our holiday home on the Hawkesbury River where the

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reception was very bad.

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And so I, for years and years, was watching this somewhat snowy

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version of the 5 doctors and just to pick up what you said earlier

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before, Todd.

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Again, I was thrown by the Hartnell clip at the beginning.

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And so, again, in those old VHS recorders that take a moment or 2

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to actually start recording.

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So for me, my sole bit of that clip was mind.

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But which was watched.

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Many, many, many times.

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I think I could, and I think probably we all could, now recite the

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story through.

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I watched it more than anything else.

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I mean, it was for a while it was the only story I had on tape

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then it was one of a few stories I had on tape, but nevertheless

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it was something you would constantly go back to and watch again

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and again and again.

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And I think it is the ultimate in Doctor Who comfort food for all

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of the right reasons.

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It's exactly what Brendan was saying that it's like a greatest

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hits album.

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Like, it's like listening to Aber Gold is watching 5 Doctors.

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You're getting all the best bits of the show and all the bits of

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the show together.

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Of course you go back to it constantly.

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I recently recorded an episode of the Murran Chess Club on the

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Five Doctors, and for it, I watched the 40th anniversary version

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which was released as part of the Blu-ray box set, and it's the

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same as the original card.

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It's not like the one that Brendan mentioned the 1999 one.

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It's just the original broadcast version with new special effects

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and obviously like a 5.one surround sound.

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A bit of extra music, yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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But the thing was that I could recognise instantly if any of the

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music...

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Yeah, yeah, yeah. because I know it absolutely off.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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The other thing that I think the 40th anniversary version does

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very well is just a couple of shots that are held too long in the

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original.

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He tightens them up just a breath.

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Not sort of cutting people off the 2nd they stop talking, but just

251
00:12:29.460 --> 00:12:33.840
where it's clear that the actor is waiting to hear cut.

252
00:12:34.320 --> 00:12:37.679
And they're not hearing it because it's Peter Moffatt.

253
00:12:37.740 --> 00:12:38.639
It's interesting.

254
00:12:38.700 --> 00:12:39.419
I noticed that as well.

255
00:12:39.480 --> 00:12:43.559
I watched it also that in the transmitted version for this podcast

256
00:12:43.559 --> 00:12:49.139
and I'm generally not a fan of these souped up versions and I

257
00:12:49.139 --> 00:12:51.899
think it's because I was scarred by that horrific version of the 5

258
00:12:51.899 --> 00:12:53.279
doctors where they were using different takes.

259
00:12:53.399 --> 00:12:55.919
That's a 1983 classic they're hacking about with.

260
00:12:55.980 --> 00:12:56.700
Yeah exactly.

261
00:12:56.759 --> 00:12:57.480
For example.

262
00:12:57.539 --> 00:13:00.480
And I started noticing, actually, they're cutting that short.

263
00:13:00.539 --> 00:13:04.379
And so but it's amazing, even the beats after lines of dialogue

264
00:13:04.379 --> 00:13:07.799
are so familiar to us that we're noticing that they're just, oh

265
00:13:07.799 --> 00:13:09.120
they've tightened that, or they've tightened that.

266
00:13:09.179 --> 00:13:12.000
I do have to praise the 40th anniversary edition, actually, because

267
00:13:12.000 --> 00:13:14.340
I thought they went through it with quite a light touch.

268
00:13:15.120 --> 00:13:20.460
And I think as things have progressed, the CGI additions that

269
00:13:20.460 --> 00:13:24.000
they've made, feel more authentic to some of the earlier ones

270
00:13:24.000 --> 00:13:28.080
where it's a bit over the top and it just doesn't gel with the

271
00:13:28.080 --> 00:13:29.279
other images that you're seeing.

272
00:13:29.399 --> 00:13:32.460
Because it's doing the very important thing of only changing the

273
00:13:32.460 --> 00:13:37.799
trappings, what they do in the 1999 VHS DVD version is that they

274
00:13:37.799 --> 00:13:40.620
actually change shots and change rhythm and change the

275
00:13:40.620 --> 00:13:41.279
storytelling.

276
00:13:41.340 --> 00:13:43.980
And I'm sorry to say they're not the storytellers that Peter Moth

277
00:13:43.980 --> 00:13:44.220
had is.

278
00:13:44.279 --> 00:13:46.860
No, and also there's a reason why those takes were chosen in the

279
00:13:46.860 --> 00:13:47.220
1st place.

280
00:13:47.279 --> 00:13:51.899
And one can argue in hindsight, or maybe this take may have been

281
00:13:51.899 --> 00:13:54.600
better, but, you know, I think that was a level of interference

282
00:13:54.600 --> 00:13:55.379
that went too far.

283
00:13:55.440 --> 00:13:58.799
Absolutely, but also it reflects fan considerations and fan

284
00:13:58.799 --> 00:14:02.879
considerations are often not correct because rather than starting

285
00:14:02.879 --> 00:14:08.759
with the glimpse of that new console, which just absolutely major

286
00:14:08.759 --> 00:14:13.139
fan heart leap in 1983, especially coming off the pre-credit

287
00:14:13.139 --> 00:14:16.980
sequence, which was our only view of Bill Hartnell for the rest of

288
00:14:16.980 --> 00:14:21.299
that decade until VHS and DVD started coming out of his era.

289
00:14:21.360 --> 00:14:24.840
That is the correct way to start the anniversary story, not a

290
00:14:24.840 --> 00:14:29.100
supposedly atmospheric, but actually entirely undramatic series of

291
00:14:29.100 --> 00:14:30.600
shots of empty studio sets.

292
00:14:30.720 --> 00:14:31.620
Oh yes, that was terrible.

293
00:14:31.679 --> 00:14:32.340
Yeah, yeah.

294
00:14:32.399 --> 00:14:34.980
So much like robot, I read the novelisation.

295
00:14:35.039 --> 00:14:38.100
Which, of course, was accidentally released 2 weeks before

296
00:14:38.100 --> 00:14:38.700
broadcast.

297
00:14:38.820 --> 00:14:41.220
Well, you read it when you were a month and a half ago. right.

298
00:14:42.120 --> 00:14:47.100
So Terence is basing it off his scripts not having seen the

299
00:14:47.100 --> 00:14:47.700
finished version.

300
00:14:47.759 --> 00:14:50.519
So it actually includes one of the bits, so there's much derided

301
00:14:50.519 --> 00:14:54.240
about the special edition, which is when the 3rd doctor is

302
00:14:54.240 --> 00:14:56.639
throwing the lasso over to the Dark Tower.

303
00:14:56.700 --> 00:14:59.220
Sarah's like, oh, doctor, there's a side man coming.

304
00:14:59.220 --> 00:15:00.240
And he says, well, do something about it.

305
00:15:00.299 --> 00:15:01.440
And she throws a rock at it.

306
00:15:01.440 --> 00:15:04.379
And you just stay on this laden and she goes, missed.

307
00:15:04.440 --> 00:15:09.059
And the thing is, it's really funny because it's Liz and it's

308
00:15:09.059 --> 00:15:14.159
quite funny in the book as well, but watching it again without the

309
00:15:14.159 --> 00:15:15.659
special edition being new.

310
00:15:15.720 --> 00:15:17.460
It is kind of NAF.

311
00:15:17.519 --> 00:15:19.980
And I think the reason it doesn't work is we don't see a rock

312
00:15:19.980 --> 00:15:22.019
rolling past a cyberman.

313
00:15:22.080 --> 00:15:23.639
And even like, even like a...

314
00:15:23.639 --> 00:15:25.200
Is there any chance that would have looked good?

315
00:15:25.320 --> 00:15:26.940
Maybe?

316
00:15:26.940 --> 00:15:28.799
Not necessarily.

317
00:15:28.860 --> 00:15:31.799
Like, you know, it would have been the double taking pigeon from

318
00:15:31.799 --> 00:15:32.879
Moonraker.

319
00:15:32.940 --> 00:15:37.740
But Peter Moffat on the commentary for the 2 doctors actually

320
00:15:37.740 --> 00:15:41.279
takes that opportunity because he says a shot in the 2 doctors.

321
00:15:41.340 --> 00:15:42.659
Oh, no, I held that too long.

322
00:15:42.720 --> 00:15:45.779
And Colin says something, oh, well, they can fix that for DVD

323
00:15:45.779 --> 00:15:46.080
now.

324
00:15:46.080 --> 00:15:48.960
And he says, well, maybe if they asked, there's another one of

325
00:15:48.960 --> 00:15:51.600
mine where they didn't even ask and they're using shots that I cut

326
00:15:51.600 --> 00:15:52.559
out for a reason.

327
00:15:52.620 --> 00:15:54.480
Yes, he also...

328
00:15:54.539 --> 00:15:55.860
He also bitched about that to me.

329
00:15:55.919 --> 00:15:59.039
I interviewed him, and I have to say, I felt great sympathy.

330
00:15:59.100 --> 00:16:02.879
He's a craftsman and whatever fan opinion, I think that's changed

331
00:16:02.879 --> 00:16:06.179
now, but the received wisdom used to be that as a director, he

332
00:16:06.179 --> 00:16:06.960
wasn't that great.

333
00:16:07.019 --> 00:16:11.039
He's not amongst the best, but he's certainly a craftsman of many

334
00:16:11.039 --> 00:16:12.000
years experience.

335
00:16:12.059 --> 00:16:14.100
And for them to go in hacking around like that.

336
00:16:14.159 --> 00:16:16.559
I just felt was just an extraordinary level of disrespect.

337
00:16:16.620 --> 00:16:18.419
He's not a dynamic director.

338
00:16:18.480 --> 00:16:19.980
But for me, he's a classic director.

339
00:16:20.039 --> 00:16:23.879
And as every all the actors in all of the making ofs always say he

340
00:16:23.879 --> 00:16:24.899
was an actor's director.

341
00:16:24.960 --> 00:16:27.960
And I think putting aside twin dilemma for the moment, the

342
00:16:27.960 --> 00:16:30.299
performances he gets out of his cast and the people he chooses to

343
00:16:30.299 --> 00:16:31.799
be in his cast are superb.

344
00:16:31.860 --> 00:16:35.580
Thinking that we could have had Warris Sustain, or Dougie Canfield

345
00:16:35.580 --> 00:16:38.519
to direct this, does give you a little bit of wistfulness, but

346
00:16:38.519 --> 00:16:42.000
actually, I understand JNT's reasoning with getting Peter Moffatt

347
00:16:42.000 --> 00:16:42.720
in to direct this.

348
00:16:42.779 --> 00:16:49.080
This isn't, in a sense, a normal Doctor Who episode in any sense.

349
00:16:49.139 --> 00:16:53.940
I mean, it's a children in need special, and this is not

350
00:16:53.940 --> 00:16:58.259
characteristic of what Terrence does generally, we've been talking

351
00:16:58.259 --> 00:17:01.620
about how propulsive his plots are and how they're full of

352
00:17:01.620 --> 00:17:03.600
incident and new things happen.

353
00:17:03.659 --> 00:17:05.519
This is incredibly straightforward.

354
00:17:05.579 --> 00:17:11.400
It is just designed to allow whoever is available to do their

355
00:17:11.400 --> 00:17:14.819
thing, which is a constantly shifting set of services.

356
00:17:14.819 --> 00:17:15.119
Exactly.

357
00:17:15.119 --> 00:17:19.200
And he is the right person to do that because he's an actor's

358
00:17:19.200 --> 00:17:19.500
director.

359
00:17:19.619 --> 00:17:24.240
Well, going back to Terrence, like, he had to come in, like Bob

360
00:17:24.240 --> 00:17:27.960
Holmes tried and couldn't make something worse. right?

361
00:17:28.019 --> 00:17:30.420
Wasn't it the 6 doctors with a fake 1st doctor or something like

362
00:17:30.420 --> 00:17:30.539
that?

363
00:17:30.599 --> 00:17:32.759
And all of that stuff that from that documentary.

364
00:17:32.819 --> 00:17:34.859
I mean, I know Bob Holmes is one of the greatest Doctor Who

365
00:17:34.859 --> 00:17:35.819
writers we've ever had.

366
00:17:35.880 --> 00:17:38.220
But I keep looking at that going, God, that would have been

367
00:17:38.220 --> 00:17:38.519
awful.

368
00:17:38.579 --> 00:17:41.880
And then, you know, Terrence comes in and has to then, wasn't the

369
00:17:41.880 --> 00:17:43.859
original idea that Hartner was just going to be in the opening

370
00:17:43.859 --> 00:17:46.740
credits, and it was going to be Pat with Jamie, the 3rd doctor

371
00:17:46.740 --> 00:17:49.619
with Joe, the 4th doctor with Sarah, and they go up, he'd go back

372
00:17:49.619 --> 00:17:51.299
to Gallifre, and then the 5th doctor.

373
00:17:51.299 --> 00:17:53.579
And then, of course, as you said, Tom's not doing it.

374
00:17:53.640 --> 00:17:55.859
Fraser Heinz not available and they start shifting all the

375
00:17:55.859 --> 00:17:57.779
components about like Katie's in Australia.

376
00:17:57.839 --> 00:18:01.799
So you end up with this mishmash of people that they're not the

377
00:18:01.799 --> 00:18:03.900
1st people that you come to mind, like the 2nd doctor in the

378
00:18:03.900 --> 00:18:04.380
brigadier.

379
00:18:04.440 --> 00:18:06.539
Yes, they were together, but it's not...

380
00:18:06.599 --> 00:18:09.480
But it's not, and it's a 3rd doctor and Sarah, you know?

381
00:18:09.539 --> 00:18:14.279
And then suddenly, well, I mean, Susan with Richard Herndor, and

382
00:18:14.279 --> 00:18:18.599
so it's not quite, but it works in a way, but it just brings up

383
00:18:18.599 --> 00:18:19.380
these anomalies.

384
00:18:19.440 --> 00:18:23.640
Like, you know, suddenly Sarah's meeting the master for the 1st

385
00:18:23.640 --> 00:18:26.640
time when it could have been Joe and then Pertuy's with the

386
00:18:26.640 --> 00:18:29.220
cybermen, like, you know, when it really should be Pat and then

387
00:18:29.220 --> 00:18:32.700
wouldn't have been great if the 1st doctor had had illusions of

388
00:18:32.700 --> 00:18:34.440
like Ian and Barber or something like that.

389
00:18:34.500 --> 00:18:37.680
And then you've got like the whole Jamie and Zoe thing, which is

390
00:18:37.680 --> 00:18:40.920
the 2nd doctor shouldn't remember that their memories are erased.

391
00:18:40.980 --> 00:18:43.859
And so there's all these funny little things that technically if

392
00:18:43.859 --> 00:18:46.319
you really thought about it, you kind of think, well, you know, you

393
00:18:46.319 --> 00:18:49.019
know, this is not really properly working, but it's absolutely

394
00:18:49.019 --> 00:18:49.619
glorious.

395
00:18:49.680 --> 00:18:51.420
Well, taking out that point.

396
00:18:51.480 --> 00:18:54.539
This story, of course, had the longest development period of any

397
00:18:54.539 --> 00:18:56.220
Doctor Who story.

398
00:18:56.279 --> 00:18:58.380
So they were thinking about this 18 months before they were

399
00:18:58.380 --> 00:18:59.160
shooting us.

400
00:18:59.220 --> 00:19:02.640
And so to go to your point, Todd, about the different companions

401
00:19:02.640 --> 00:19:05.099
it was in development for so long that originally they thought

402
00:19:05.099 --> 00:19:07.259
they were going to bring out Tom and Lala because they were still

403
00:19:07.259 --> 00:19:08.579
married at that point.

404
00:19:08.640 --> 00:19:12.660
I like the fact that Terence, he always said, I think we've said

405
00:19:12.660 --> 00:19:14.220
this before, he's good in a quasis.

406
00:19:14.279 --> 00:19:18.900
And this was absolutely the quintessential crisis of Doctor Who

407
00:19:18.900 --> 00:19:22.079
because what you needed was someone who could just effortlessly

408
00:19:22.079 --> 00:19:23.819
adapt to whatever was needed.

409
00:19:23.880 --> 00:19:24.720
And that's Terence.

410
00:19:24.839 --> 00:19:26.940
That's not just a working professional at that time.

411
00:19:27.539 --> 00:19:29.099
Well, exactly.

412
00:19:29.160 --> 00:19:32.099
As a script editor on the Sunday classics, with all of that

413
00:19:32.099 --> 00:19:35.279
history of Dr. Andre is spell of sort of editing scripts to make

414
00:19:35.279 --> 00:19:38.279
them work, of writing the novelisation, so understanding how

415
00:19:38.279 --> 00:19:42.359
structure works, he was, in many ways, maybe the only person who

416
00:19:42.359 --> 00:19:43.859
could have made the story work.

417
00:19:43.920 --> 00:19:48.599
And the fact that you are able to slot in different companions and

418
00:19:48.599 --> 00:19:49.200
different doctors.

419
00:19:49.319 --> 00:19:53.279
You know, it's wonderful for a fan to be able to see another 3rd

420
00:19:53.279 --> 00:19:56.819
doctor and Sarah story as opposed to what you expect you might get

421
00:19:56.819 --> 00:20:00.480
which is the 3rd doctor in Joe. It's wonderful to see Pat

422
00:20:00.480 --> 00:20:03.240
Troughton and the Brigadier, who really only had those 2 stories

423
00:20:03.240 --> 00:20:06.420
together, and then the 3 doctors where they're a bit off, have

424
00:20:06.420 --> 00:20:07.500
another adventure together.

425
00:20:07.559 --> 00:20:11.579
That's in some ways greater than having the doctor going through

426
00:20:11.579 --> 00:20:13.559
the death zone with Victoria and Jamie.

427
00:20:13.619 --> 00:20:16.440
And you get the wonderful thing, which I've often said, which I

428
00:20:16.440 --> 00:20:19.500
was disappointed. you didn't get more of in the 50th anniversary

429
00:20:19.500 --> 00:20:22.740
special, which is when you swap companions and doctors.

430
00:20:22.799 --> 00:20:25.380
So having Tegan with the 1st doctor works really well, for

431
00:20:25.380 --> 00:20:25.680
instance.

432
00:20:25.740 --> 00:20:28.380
And it's a shame that there wasn't more kind of like a bit more of

433
00:20:28.380 --> 00:20:31.019
a randomisation, but it needed a different plot.

434
00:20:31.079 --> 00:20:34.799
Look, Nathan, as you said, it's a relatively simple concept, but I

435
00:20:34.799 --> 00:20:38.640
think it needs to be because it is a series of vignettes

436
00:20:38.640 --> 00:20:39.000
basically.

437
00:20:39.059 --> 00:20:41.099
It's a series of incidents.

438
00:20:41.160 --> 00:20:45.960
But the fact that it can create the illusion of it being a

439
00:20:45.960 --> 00:20:51.000
coherent story that does work and builds to a climax and a

440
00:20:51.000 --> 00:20:52.859
resolution is quite remarkable.

441
00:20:52.920 --> 00:20:55.500
And I take on board what you're saying, Todd, but there's actually

442
00:20:55.500 --> 00:20:58.859
surprisingly little that doesn't make sense or surprisingly little

443
00:20:58.859 --> 00:20:59.640
that doesn't work.

444
00:20:59.700 --> 00:21:01.619
I'm not criticising it for that.

445
00:21:01.680 --> 00:21:02.640
I'm just pointing out these things.

446
00:21:02.700 --> 00:21:04.319
Yes, I absolutely adore it.

447
00:21:04.380 --> 00:21:07.380
But it's so funny because it's like, you know, when the master

448
00:21:07.380 --> 00:21:10.380
turns up at the end and like the brigadier knocks him out in a

449
00:21:10.380 --> 00:21:13.140
second, it's sort of like I would have loved him, the master said

450
00:21:13.140 --> 00:21:15.359
oh, brigadier or something, and then you've got the 3rd doctor

451
00:21:15.359 --> 00:21:17.160
Nabriti are just having a couple of lines together.

452
00:21:17.220 --> 00:21:18.660
I mean, yes, you want more.

453
00:21:18.779 --> 00:21:19.440
You want more?

454
00:21:19.500 --> 00:21:21.779
That's its floor. basically.

455
00:21:21.839 --> 00:21:24.480
And that was the floor that I felt in 1983 or perhaps more

456
00:21:24.480 --> 00:21:27.660
accurately January 1984, was that there wasn't more of it.

457
00:21:27.720 --> 00:21:30.779
As Doctor Who fans, I mean, you know, you should have been 9 hours

458
00:21:30.779 --> 00:21:32.220
and it wouldn't still wouldn't have been long enough.

459
00:21:38.279 --> 00:21:42.299
And that, in a way, is part of the virtue of the writing, because

460
00:21:42.299 --> 00:21:47.339
it was John Nathan Turner who said to Terrence Dix, I'm worried

461
00:21:47.339 --> 00:21:52.680
about having 5 leading men doing scenes together, all of whom have

462
00:21:52.680 --> 00:21:55.799
owned the show at some point, keep them apart until the end.

463
00:21:55.920 --> 00:21:59.640
Now, the thing is, it turned out at the read-through that that

464
00:21:59.640 --> 00:22:02.460
wasn't a problem, and they all got along very well, and John

465
00:22:02.460 --> 00:22:05.279
Pertwe said in later years that he was actually very sensitive to

466
00:22:05.279 --> 00:22:06.000
Peter Davidson.

467
00:22:06.059 --> 00:22:09.119
Having had the experience of the 3 doctors, of Pat Troughton

468
00:22:09.119 --> 00:22:10.920
coming in and charming everyone and him being incredibly

469
00:22:10.920 --> 00:22:11.759
threatened by that.

470
00:22:12.420 --> 00:22:16.500
And, you know, this is John Bertley saying, I knew what that felt

471
00:22:16.500 --> 00:22:19.140
like, and I didn't want to be that person.

472
00:22:19.380 --> 00:22:25.200
JT was probably remembering hearing that story from John.

473
00:22:25.259 --> 00:22:26.039
And so had that in mind.

474
00:22:26.099 --> 00:22:30.000
And dare I suggest it's probably dates from a moment when Tom was

475
00:22:30.000 --> 00:22:30.960
going to be in it?

476
00:22:31.019 --> 00:22:31.380
absolutely.

477
00:22:31.500 --> 00:22:33.000
And I think that would have been a very different situation.

478
00:22:33.059 --> 00:22:34.319
Absolutely.

479
00:22:34.380 --> 00:22:39.000
And that leads into, you know, examples of how masterful Terrence

480
00:22:39.000 --> 00:22:44.819
is as a writer, because for ages, the Pat Phantom scene was going

481
00:22:44.819 --> 00:22:50.460
to be Victoria and Zoe and the tell was Victoria calling him

482
00:22:50.460 --> 00:22:53.640
brigadier when she only knew him as the colonel.

483
00:22:53.700 --> 00:22:57.059
And that then obviates the whole season 6 B thing.

484
00:22:57.059 --> 00:23:00.599
Debbie Watling then gets 3 specials with Dave Allen, which I think

485
00:23:00.599 --> 00:23:02.460
may have fallen through.

486
00:23:02.519 --> 00:23:03.900
I think she said that at the convention once.

487
00:23:03.960 --> 00:23:06.539
She's like, look, you know, I had to turn down one day's work for

488
00:23:06.539 --> 00:23:10.440
2 months work and then I got paid for that, but it didn't happen

489
00:23:10.440 --> 00:23:12.599
and I would have rather have done this.

490
00:23:12.660 --> 00:23:15.420
But, you know, then they have to call Fraser down at a week's

491
00:23:15.420 --> 00:23:18.240
notice because he couldn't be in it fully because of Emmerdale, but

492
00:23:18.240 --> 00:23:20.519
yes, they'll release him for 2 days kind of thing.

493
00:23:20.579 --> 00:23:23.220
And so Terence has to come in and go, right, what's something that

494
00:23:23.220 --> 00:23:23.579
makes sense?

495
00:23:23.640 --> 00:23:24.779
This makes sense.

496
00:23:24.839 --> 00:23:27.480
And then afterwards it was like, oh, God, I've created a whole

497
00:23:27.480 --> 00:23:28.319
separate continuity.

498
00:23:28.440 --> 00:23:30.240
Bob, can you come in and write something about this?

499
00:23:30.299 --> 00:23:31.680
Is it that?

500
00:23:31.680 --> 00:23:37.559
Because I just assumed that what had happened was he decided that

501
00:23:37.559 --> 00:23:41.160
there could be a very long explanation about, oh, no, they did go

502
00:23:41.160 --> 00:23:43.980
back and they did remember some of the doctor, but neither of them

503
00:23:43.980 --> 00:23:46.019
would have known the brigadier or something like that.

504
00:23:46.079 --> 00:23:49.680
But then you just sort of think, no, we're not doing that.

505
00:23:49.740 --> 00:23:51.960
We're just getting this scene done.

506
00:23:52.019 --> 00:23:54.059
Oh, it's interesting that you talk about, you know, the fact that

507
00:23:54.059 --> 00:23:56.039
how does a doctor know that they were coming back there in time.

508
00:23:56.099 --> 00:23:58.920
That means it's the series 6B thing, blah, blah, blah.

509
00:23:58.980 --> 00:24:03.539
But the way my fan, 11, 12 year old head cannon was working, and

510
00:24:03.539 --> 00:24:04.799
it's that different from today.

511
00:24:05.220 --> 00:24:10.200
I take that as a compliment. which is not that much different from

512
00:24:10.200 --> 00:24:10.619
today.

513
00:24:10.740 --> 00:24:12.960
And I've carried this with me ever since, and because it works in

514
00:24:12.960 --> 00:24:17.160
both the 3 doctors and the 5 doctors, is that it's almost like a

515
00:24:17.160 --> 00:24:20.819
bi-generation thing, in that it's almost like it's the spirits, the

516
00:24:20.819 --> 00:24:23.099
ghosts of the doctors.

517
00:24:23.160 --> 00:24:25.680
Hartnall is, well, the 1st doctor, sorry, is wandering around a

518
00:24:25.680 --> 00:24:26.039
garden.

519
00:24:26.099 --> 00:24:30.059
The 2nd doctor was either running from a burning building or, um

520
00:24:30.059 --> 00:24:32.339
you know, in this case, it's...

521
00:24:32.400 --> 00:24:32.819
Yes exactly.

522
00:24:32.880 --> 00:24:35.579
The nominally non-clip from the macro terror.

523
00:24:35.640 --> 00:24:37.319
And even John Pertwee's one.

524
00:24:37.380 --> 00:24:40.559
It's almost like there's a kind of an echo of the doctor that

525
00:24:40.559 --> 00:24:45.539
still exists and they remember everything about their era, apart

526
00:24:45.539 --> 00:24:46.799
from the moment.

527
00:24:46.859 --> 00:24:49.259
So John doesn't know that he turns into Tom Beck.

528
00:24:49.319 --> 00:24:50.880
He knows he's regenerating, but he doesn't know what he

529
00:24:50.880 --> 00:24:51.539
regenerates into.

530
00:24:51.599 --> 00:24:52.259
Do you know what I mean?

531
00:24:52.319 --> 00:24:56.460
Well, in a sense, he sort of does because he picks up from Sarah's

532
00:24:56.460 --> 00:24:58.619
hand gesture that she means teeth and curls.

533
00:24:58.680 --> 00:24:59.039
Curls.

534
00:24:59.039 --> 00:25:01.680
Yeah, he does kind of... he feels them coming on.

535
00:25:01.740 --> 00:25:05.700
And even and even the fact that the doctors refer to Davis.

536
00:25:05.759 --> 00:25:07.799
I mean, and this is a conceit because this is the 20th anniversary

537
00:25:07.799 --> 00:25:08.700
special, blah, blah, blah.

538
00:25:08.759 --> 00:25:13.619
But the doctors recognise Peter Davidson as the current model.

539
00:25:13.680 --> 00:25:15.720
Not like, oh, well, what are you going to turn into?

540
00:25:15.779 --> 00:25:18.299
they think that, well, no, no one really wants to know what he's

541
00:25:18.299 --> 00:25:18.900
going to do.

542
00:25:21.000 --> 00:25:24.180
I'm not going to comment.

543
00:25:24.180 --> 00:25:27.359
But yeah, but I actually think that and I think the sense I'm

544
00:25:27.359 --> 00:25:29.400
getting in this room and I think since I've gotten from talking to

545
00:25:29.400 --> 00:25:31.200
other people over the decades is that that's actually kind of what

546
00:25:31.200 --> 00:25:32.339
a lot of other people feel as well.

547
00:25:32.400 --> 00:25:35.160
Two doctors does it differently. 2 doctors you kind of do imagine

548
00:25:35.160 --> 00:25:38.099
that they've been plucked out of wherever it is.

549
00:25:38.220 --> 00:25:42.599
And you get the line about the drug that the 2nd doctor is been

550
00:25:42.599 --> 00:25:45.779
given so that he doesn't remember this adventure the next time it

551
00:25:45.779 --> 00:25:46.200
comes around.

552
00:25:46.319 --> 00:25:48.059
In the 2 doctors.

553
00:25:48.119 --> 00:25:48.420
Yeah.

554
00:25:51.660 --> 00:25:54.420
I think that that's absolutely right.

555
00:25:54.539 --> 00:25:58.259
And it works very well with an older 2nd doctor in the brigadier

556
00:25:58.259 --> 00:26:00.059
because they're ageing.

557
00:26:00.119 --> 00:26:03.119
They're both sort of, you know, like when you think about it, Pat

558
00:26:03.119 --> 00:26:07.019
as the doctor is 20 years younger than the brigadier is now, but

559
00:26:07.019 --> 00:26:09.720
instead the 2 of them are kind of like a weird old married

560
00:26:09.720 --> 00:26:10.680
couple.

561
00:26:10.740 --> 00:26:13.619
Age has not...

562
00:26:13.680 --> 00:26:15.839
Just keep bitching all the whole time.

563
00:26:15.900 --> 00:26:19.200
No, but light bitching because I watched an episode of the Three

564
00:26:19.200 --> 00:26:21.599
Doctors the other day just to sort of compare and it's dreadful

565
00:26:21.599 --> 00:26:23.759
the way they do, the brigadier and 2nd doctor.

566
00:26:23.759 --> 00:26:26.460
Oh, yeah, in comparison to this, which is a kind of a lovely

567
00:26:26.460 --> 00:26:27.119
banter.

568
00:26:27.180 --> 00:26:28.559
And, you know, the brigadier.

569
00:26:28.619 --> 00:26:30.660
Oh, you know, when he hands him the jelly babies.

570
00:26:30.720 --> 00:26:32.880
But you know, I expect that's the difference between Terence

571
00:26:32.880 --> 00:26:35.940
having a remembered idea of what the 2nd doctor was like.

572
00:26:36.000 --> 00:26:38.279
And then in the meantime, doing all those novelisations.

573
00:26:38.339 --> 00:26:41.220
They've actually got a proper handle on what the 2nd doctor is

574
00:26:41.220 --> 00:26:41.460
like.

575
00:26:41.519 --> 00:26:42.119
Exactly.

576
00:26:42.180 --> 00:26:46.259
And we forget that Terrence would often watch the tapes slash

577
00:26:46.259 --> 00:26:47.700
films of episodes.

578
00:26:47.759 --> 00:26:51.599
And I believe, Peter, that you said that Terrence watched the

579
00:26:51.599 --> 00:26:52.920
Abominable Snowman.

580
00:26:52.980 --> 00:26:55.980
So Terrence was probably the last person on this planet to have

581
00:26:55.980 --> 00:26:58.079
seen the Aboveable Snowman in its entirety.

582
00:26:58.140 --> 00:27:01.200
And there's another reason why he's so perfect for this.

583
00:27:01.259 --> 00:27:05.579
Not just the 5 or 6 years he script edited, but because he has a

584
00:27:05.579 --> 00:27:09.240
fan's understanding of how all these actors relate, how the

585
00:27:09.240 --> 00:27:12.539
characters relate, all the writing for all the doctors is spot

586
00:27:12.539 --> 00:27:13.019
on.

587
00:27:13.079 --> 00:27:15.900
And I don't think it's because the actors were having to tweak it

588
00:27:15.900 --> 00:27:16.440
during rehearsals.

589
00:27:16.500 --> 00:27:18.119
No, and this is the brilliance of Terence.

590
00:27:18.180 --> 00:27:19.859
This is what we've basically been talking about.

591
00:27:19.920 --> 00:27:23.279
The fact that he does have a fan's point of view on the series

592
00:27:23.279 --> 00:27:24.779
because he's so steeped in it.

593
00:27:24.839 --> 00:27:28.920
He's immersed in it, but he's also got a rightly creative view of

594
00:27:28.920 --> 00:27:31.920
the series where he knows what to Jettison and what to include.

595
00:27:31.980 --> 00:27:36.180
So the 5 doctors is probably the most potent example of fan

596
00:27:36.180 --> 00:27:39.839
service in the original series, I would say, but it's also the

597
00:27:39.839 --> 00:27:43.140
best done, because you get something like Arc of Infinity, where

598
00:27:43.140 --> 00:27:46.980
the entire thing hinges on the fact that the audience should know

599
00:27:46.980 --> 00:27:50.160
who Omega is, and unless they've been watching for 10 years or

600
00:27:50.160 --> 00:27:53.819
happened to catch a repeat on BBC 2 in August.

601
00:27:53.880 --> 00:27:57.420
That's right They sit there cold like they've been left out, like

602
00:27:57.420 --> 00:27:59.519
the series and other people know things that they don't.

603
00:28:00.119 --> 00:28:01.680
I think there are other flaws with arc of infinity.

604
00:28:01.740 --> 00:28:02.640
There are many.

605
00:28:02.700 --> 00:28:05.519
But that's a key one in its conception.

606
00:28:05.579 --> 00:28:10.440
Whereas with this, Terence knows that when Sarah says to the 3rd

607
00:28:10.440 --> 00:28:13.859
doctor, so the next one, teeth and curls, the audience immediately

608
00:28:13.859 --> 00:28:17.039
go, oh, yeah, the next one, Tom Baker with the curly hair, and

609
00:28:17.039 --> 00:28:19.200
that's the level of fan service that he includes.

610
00:28:19.200 --> 00:28:21.720
Because in a way that's not fan service.

611
00:28:21.779 --> 00:28:25.380
That's an awareness that Doctor Who belongs to a big audience of

612
00:28:25.380 --> 00:28:26.579
1000000s of people.

613
00:28:27.539 --> 00:28:31.380
And that what this is, is that this is a celebration of a TV

614
00:28:31.380 --> 00:28:32.160
show.

615
00:28:32.220 --> 00:28:36.119
Stephen Moffat says that Doctor Who takes place under your bed, but

616
00:28:36.119 --> 00:28:36.720
he's wrong.

617
00:28:36.779 --> 00:28:39.359
Doctor Who takes place in a corner of the living room.

618
00:28:39.420 --> 00:28:42.839
So it's always been this TV thing.

619
00:28:42.900 --> 00:28:47.579
And so it absolutely operates as a kind of like a light

620
00:28:47.579 --> 00:28:49.559
entertainment piece, essentially.

621
00:28:49.619 --> 00:28:54.059
This is getting everyone in for This is Your Life only for Doctor

622
00:28:54.059 --> 00:28:56.220
Who, but we're acting it all out.

623
00:28:56.279 --> 00:28:57.420
That's the point.

624
00:28:57.480 --> 00:29:00.059
Terrence doesn't treat fan service as fan service.

625
00:29:00.119 --> 00:29:02.700
He treats it as long-term viewer service.

626
00:29:02.759 --> 00:29:03.720
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

627
00:29:03.779 --> 00:29:05.880
So it's just perfectly pitched.

628
00:29:05.940 --> 00:29:09.180
And anything that's going to make people at home wonder what the

629
00:29:09.180 --> 00:29:12.539
hell is going on really had to be jettison.

630
00:29:12.599 --> 00:29:17.579
So it is incredibly straightforward, and that's not a criticism at

631
00:29:17.579 --> 00:29:17.819
all.

632
00:29:17.880 --> 00:29:20.700
And there's no way Bob Holmes could have done that.

633
00:29:20.759 --> 00:29:23.940
He would have wanted to write a proper Doctor Who story with all

634
00:29:23.940 --> 00:29:24.960
those elements in it.

635
00:29:25.019 --> 00:29:25.920
And guess what?

636
00:29:25.980 --> 00:29:27.240
That just isn't possible.

637
00:29:27.299 --> 00:29:30.480
It's interesting because it is possible when we come to the 2

638
00:29:30.480 --> 00:29:32.519
doctors because for 2 reasons.

639
00:29:32.579 --> 00:29:36.059
A, you're only talking about 2 doctors who the sense is they

640
00:29:36.059 --> 00:29:40.319
coincidentally meets, their paths happen to cross, and it being

641
00:29:40.319 --> 00:29:40.680
longer.

642
00:29:40.740 --> 00:29:43.559
I think both those things together, I think, make it work and

643
00:29:43.559 --> 00:29:45.599
that's one of the reasons why I think it's the most successful

644
00:29:45.599 --> 00:29:47.940
multidoctor story, although this comes as a close second.

645
00:29:48.000 --> 00:29:53.579
I think the other thing with Bob Holmes pictures is they all focus

646
00:29:53.579 --> 00:29:57.180
attention on the fact that Richard Herndle is not William

647
00:29:57.180 --> 00:29:57.839
Hartnall.

648
00:29:57.900 --> 00:30:00.900
They all go, we have to explain this because they're not going to

649
00:30:00.900 --> 00:30:01.440
accept it.

650
00:30:01.500 --> 00:30:05.700
Whereas Terence kind of says, the audience knows that William

651
00:30:05.700 --> 00:30:06.839
Hartnell is dead.

652
00:30:06.900 --> 00:30:08.880
Let's not hide it.

653
00:30:08.940 --> 00:30:12.599
We're getting someone who is giving a performance of that

654
00:30:12.599 --> 00:30:16.500
character. other than of that actor rather than of that actor.

655
00:30:16.559 --> 00:30:20.519
And it's like, because people know what theatre is and they know

656
00:30:20.519 --> 00:30:23.640
that there's a different Sherlock Holmes every 10 years, you

657
00:30:23.640 --> 00:30:23.940
know?

658
00:30:24.119 --> 00:30:24.900
James Bond, whatever.

659
00:30:24.900 --> 00:30:25.619
James Bond?

660
00:30:25.680 --> 00:30:25.980
Exactly.

661
00:30:26.039 --> 00:30:27.960
And I think that's the right way to go.

662
00:30:28.019 --> 00:30:32.160
And not that it's a, say, a weakness of Robert Holmes, but he

663
00:30:32.160 --> 00:30:36.299
writes such rich worlds that to him, he has to explain to the

664
00:30:36.299 --> 00:30:38.279
viewer why this change has been made.

665
00:30:38.339 --> 00:30:41.039
Maybe he was traumatised having watched the chase recently or

666
00:30:41.039 --> 00:30:42.599
something. wanted to correct that error.

667
00:30:42.660 --> 00:30:45.900
Well, we were all traumatised.

668
00:30:45.900 --> 00:30:49.980
In his initial concept, Dr. Will, as he calls him, is a robot

669
00:30:49.980 --> 00:30:50.819
replica.

670
00:30:50.819 --> 00:30:52.200
And that's why he's not quite right.

671
00:30:52.500 --> 00:30:56.160
If only the chase duplicate was only just not quite right.

672
00:30:56.339 --> 00:31:00.480
It's interesting Caroline Ford was out here recently and she was

673
00:31:00.480 --> 00:31:03.720
talking about working with Richard Herndle and saying that he was

674
00:31:03.720 --> 00:31:07.920
very concerned, like, oh, did I do that right constantly asking

675
00:31:07.920 --> 00:31:10.920
you know, making sure that he wanted to get it as right as

676
00:31:10.920 --> 00:31:11.339
possible?

677
00:31:11.400 --> 00:31:14.700
And I think he does a really spectacular job.

678
00:31:14.759 --> 00:31:15.240
Yeah, you know?

679
00:31:15.299 --> 00:31:18.359
Yeah, maybe he doesn't look exactly like heart and all like, but

680
00:31:18.359 --> 00:31:20.460
you know, nobody's going to at that time.

681
00:31:20.519 --> 00:31:24.299
And I think it was very serendipitous that JNT saw him in a repeat

682
00:31:24.299 --> 00:31:25.619
of Blake Seven. you know?

683
00:31:25.680 --> 00:31:29.099
And he manages to convey that character.

684
00:31:29.160 --> 00:31:35.039
In fact, too, there is a sense in 1983 where the 1st doctor is

685
00:31:35.039 --> 00:31:39.420
largely unknowable, and we just think of him as the grumpy one, and

686
00:31:39.420 --> 00:31:40.920
that's not at all what he's like.

687
00:31:40.980 --> 00:31:44.819
A lot of that is informed by the only thing that had been seen of

688
00:31:44.819 --> 00:31:48.059
him in the last decade, which was the unearthly childhood.

689
00:31:48.119 --> 00:31:50.640
Yeah, aggression, but we didn't have anything where he actually is

690
00:31:50.640 --> 00:31:52.619
quite abrasive and grumpy for a lot of it.

691
00:31:52.680 --> 00:31:56.759
And I remember thinking that it had been a shame that he was not

692
00:31:56.759 --> 00:32:00.480
really able to participate in the 3 doctors very much.

693
00:32:00.539 --> 00:32:06.299
And so the fact that Bill was gone, did free them up, to give that

694
00:32:06.299 --> 00:32:07.920
1st doctor more to do.

695
00:32:07.980 --> 00:32:12.420
And I actually like how they give him the job of solving the

696
00:32:12.420 --> 00:32:12.839
problem.

697
00:32:12.900 --> 00:32:17.460
He's the one who understands that they just need to let Barusa go

698
00:32:17.460 --> 00:32:21.779
and take Rassalon's ring and become immortal.

699
00:32:21.839 --> 00:32:24.660
Well, as the 2nd doctor said in the 3 doctors, he's always had a

700
00:32:24.660 --> 00:32:25.859
lot of respect for his opinion.

701
00:32:25.920 --> 00:32:26.880
Yeah, yeah.

702
00:32:26.940 --> 00:32:28.619
I mean, I think that's really terrific.

703
00:32:28.680 --> 00:32:32.339
And I do think he's very good and I think he is a bit silly and

704
00:32:32.339 --> 00:32:33.000
whimsical.

705
00:32:33.059 --> 00:32:37.259
And for those people who think that the 1st doctor only becomes

706
00:32:37.259 --> 00:32:41.759
sexist in twice upon a time, there is that wonderful moment where

707
00:32:41.759 --> 00:32:44.339
he tells Tegan to go and make some tea.

708
00:32:44.339 --> 00:32:48.599
And, you know, Pete's doctor has to kind of apologise for that.

709
00:32:48.900 --> 00:32:51.420
I thought Janet loses it.

710
00:32:52.019 --> 00:32:54.059
Hang on a minute.

711
00:32:54.119 --> 00:32:57.359
That sounds nice, but I think that's done nicely.

712
00:32:57.420 --> 00:33:01.859
Yeah, but it's not, it's actually not the fact that he asks her to

713
00:33:01.859 --> 00:33:02.819
fetch refreshments.

714
00:33:02.880 --> 00:33:06.779
It's the fact that that's the preamble to it is, look, young lady

715
00:33:06.779 --> 00:33:08.640
make yourself useful.

716
00:33:09.180 --> 00:33:12.119
It's the way the whole thing plays.

717
00:33:12.180 --> 00:33:15.779
And if I may observe that about Terrence's dialogue in all this

718
00:33:15.779 --> 00:33:19.740
given how much of it, it's a Tetris puzzle and bringing it all

719
00:33:19.740 --> 00:33:24.299
together, in the main, everyone gets the right amount of dialogue

720
00:33:24.299 --> 00:33:25.140
that you might expect.

721
00:33:25.200 --> 00:33:29.160
And there are wonderful sequences where there's a series of

722
00:33:29.160 --> 00:33:31.920
swiftly delivered lines one after the other from different

723
00:33:31.920 --> 00:33:33.599
characters to sort of build the scene.

724
00:33:33.660 --> 00:33:36.119
It's not like 2 of them are talking and the other ones are over

725
00:33:36.119 --> 00:33:36.299
here.

726
00:33:36.359 --> 00:33:39.000
You know, it's not just like you're hardly a suitable candidate

727
00:33:39.000 --> 00:33:40.079
for anything, all that sort of thing.

728
00:33:40.140 --> 00:33:44.519
I mean, Terence is so talented that he's genetically incapable of

729
00:33:44.519 --> 00:33:45.779
writing bad dialogue.

730
00:33:45.839 --> 00:33:49.380
So even given scenes like these, which are necessarily propelled

731
00:33:49.380 --> 00:33:50.339
forward by the plot.

732
00:33:50.400 --> 00:33:52.559
He fills them with great dialogue.

733
00:33:52.619 --> 00:33:56.940
And so this is perhaps the endlessly quotable Doctor Who story for

734
00:33:56.940 --> 00:34:00.539
fans of your and my vintage, Simon and Todd and Nathan.

735
00:34:00.599 --> 00:34:02.460
It's revealing of character as well.

736
00:34:02.519 --> 00:34:06.480
So that scene with the 2nd doctor where he's in the office with

737
00:34:06.480 --> 00:34:08.699
Colonel Crichton and the brigadier and he says you've

738
00:34:08.699 --> 00:34:09.360
redecorated.

739
00:34:09.420 --> 00:34:12.000
I don't like it, which is something only Terrant could have

740
00:34:12.000 --> 00:34:14.639
included because he remembered that from the 3 doctors.

741
00:34:14.699 --> 00:34:18.539
But then also the killer line, you're his replacement.

742
00:34:18.599 --> 00:34:20.039
Mine was pretty unpromising too.

743
00:34:20.099 --> 00:34:23.340
Yes, which is just, it works on so many brilliant levels.

744
00:34:23.400 --> 00:34:25.860
It's Terence having a swipe at pertwi.

745
00:34:25.920 --> 00:34:28.739
It's the 2nd doctor having a swipe at the third.

746
00:34:28.800 --> 00:34:31.139
But this is what I'm saying about the fact that these multi-doctor

747
00:34:31.139 --> 00:34:34.139
stories, these multi-doctor stories existing in this kind of with

748
00:34:34.139 --> 00:34:39.000
ghostly spiritual remnants of each doctor because this Trouton has

749
00:34:39.000 --> 00:34:40.139
done the 3 doctors.

750
00:34:40.199 --> 00:34:42.360
He remembers, oh, could you, do you know what I mean?

751
00:34:42.420 --> 00:34:44.940
So that's why, you know, in the end, you haven't changed, still

752
00:34:44.940 --> 00:34:46.320
finding menace in your own shadow.

753
00:34:46.380 --> 00:34:47.940
So he knows John Pertwe's doctor.

754
00:34:48.000 --> 00:34:50.699
Yeah, see, in my head, Canon, they can only remember that when

755
00:34:50.699 --> 00:34:53.159
they come back together when it's all tied out of sync.

756
00:34:53.159 --> 00:34:54.840
Yeah, that works too.

757
00:34:54.900 --> 00:34:57.480
They don't remember the 3 or the 5 doctors, it's only when this

758
00:34:57.480 --> 00:34:59.519
sort of anomally happens, that memory comes back.

759
00:34:59.579 --> 00:35:03.000
And Stephen Moffat picks up on that for day of the doctor and

760
00:35:03.000 --> 00:35:06.179
explicitly says at the end that John Hurts doctor won't remember.

761
00:35:06.239 --> 00:35:07.559
Yes.

762
00:35:07.619 --> 00:35:10.079
So that sort of preserves the fact that we then have Christopher

763
00:35:10.079 --> 00:35:12.480
Ecklson and David Tennant feeling incredibly guilty about the time

764
00:35:12.480 --> 00:35:12.840
war.

765
00:35:12.900 --> 00:35:13.679
Yeah.

766
00:35:13.739 --> 00:35:17.460
Something that's really masterful about Terrence's dialogue with

767
00:35:17.460 --> 00:35:22.260
the 4 leading men is that gives him for people to share the

768
00:35:22.260 --> 00:35:24.659
exposition among.

769
00:35:24.659 --> 00:35:28.860
Because something that was certainly a problem in, say, arc of

770
00:35:28.860 --> 00:35:33.300
infinity and terminus is a lot of it was just Peter Davison

771
00:35:33.300 --> 00:35:37.320
breathlessly going, oh, well, this is very bad because the thing's

772
00:35:37.320 --> 00:35:41.460
going to thing, and then the thing will or won't happen.

773
00:35:41.519 --> 00:35:42.179
I don't know.

774
00:35:42.239 --> 00:35:45.360
Whereas here, you can have character, character, character

775
00:35:45.360 --> 00:35:45.780
character.

776
00:35:45.840 --> 00:35:48.659
Wrestleon is sleeping in his tomb and may have started the games

777
00:35:48.659 --> 00:35:50.099
himself and may have brought us here.

778
00:35:50.159 --> 00:35:51.719
Oh, and Brigadier, aren't you being silly?

779
00:35:51.780 --> 00:35:55.860
You know, and you can share that, but also picking up on what you

780
00:35:55.860 --> 00:35:58.260
were saying earlier, Nathan, with the fact that the 1st doctor's

781
00:35:58.260 --> 00:35:59.219
the one who solves the problem.

782
00:35:59.280 --> 00:36:03.000
It's kind of like each doctor solves problems in the story in a

783
00:36:03.000 --> 00:36:04.320
way unique to their character.

784
00:36:04.380 --> 00:36:08.099
So the 1st doctor doesn't get in any physical altercations, but

785
00:36:08.099 --> 00:36:11.820
he'll push a dalek down a corridor, so it shoots itself, and then

786
00:36:11.820 --> 00:36:13.500
he'll use his wits at the end.

787
00:36:13.559 --> 00:36:17.099
The 2nd doctor deals with the yeti by finding stuff in his

788
00:36:17.099 --> 00:36:17.579
pockets.

789
00:36:17.639 --> 00:36:20.400
The 3rd doctor creates a flying fox.

790
00:36:20.460 --> 00:36:24.539
I think the 1st doctor explains what pie is to the children at

791
00:36:24.539 --> 00:36:24.900
home.

792
00:36:24.960 --> 00:36:27.059
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. thought that was wonderful.

793
00:36:27.119 --> 00:36:28.980
Wasn't that wonderful?

794
00:36:29.039 --> 00:36:30.360
Does he explain the application?

795
00:36:32.639 --> 00:36:36.119
Even though neither the use of pie, nor the way to pizza or know

796
00:36:36.119 --> 00:36:36.719
anything about it.

797
00:36:36.780 --> 00:36:41.699
And Davison, of course, begins to solve the problem by pretending

798
00:36:41.699 --> 00:36:44.400
to just be a little bit annoying with the guard.

799
00:36:44.460 --> 00:36:46.800
It's like, oh, well, was the president did it?

800
00:36:46.860 --> 00:36:47.099
Really?

801
00:36:47.159 --> 00:36:50.039
Oh, well, I don't see him.

802
00:36:50.099 --> 00:36:50.760
Do you see him?

803
00:36:50.880 --> 00:36:52.739
How about you leave me alone to search this room?

804
00:36:53.880 --> 00:36:56.099
That thing about pie.

805
00:36:56.159 --> 00:36:58.019
I mean, even though that sequence is ridiculous.

806
00:36:58.079 --> 00:36:59.099
It's meant so much to us.

807
00:36:59.159 --> 00:37:00.420
I think back in the day.

808
00:37:00.480 --> 00:37:03.599
And now you can obviously look up high to have many decimal

809
00:37:03.599 --> 00:37:03.960
places.

810
00:37:04.019 --> 00:37:07.139
But, you know, it took, I think Brett, you and I found a book in

811
00:37:07.139 --> 00:37:09.059
the school library and was able to say that it was

812
00:37:09.059 --> 00:37:14.699
3.141592653589793237462643383279.

813
00:37:16.679 --> 00:37:20.639
No, no, no, it was it was our year seven, maths book.

814
00:37:20.699 --> 00:37:22.260
Oh, did it?

815
00:37:22.320 --> 00:37:23.579
Oh, I thought it was a library book.

816
00:37:23.639 --> 00:37:25.619
But there is actually one digit.

817
00:37:25.679 --> 00:37:28.199
I think I've got there's a digit, which is a misprint, because

818
00:37:28.199 --> 00:37:30.179
it's subsequently found. 7 or an eight.

819
00:37:30.179 --> 00:37:31.260
It just said, yes, exactly.

820
00:37:31.260 --> 00:37:34.019
Oh, people, you are just transfixed with this.

821
00:37:34.019 --> 00:37:35.340
I mean, there was a seven.

822
00:37:35.400 --> 00:37:37.139
Yeah, one of the sevens should be an eight, but I still remember

823
00:37:37.139 --> 00:37:37.860
it as the seven.

824
00:37:37.920 --> 00:37:40.559
But that's the kind of thing that it Doctor Who inspired and it

825
00:37:40.559 --> 00:37:40.920
should.

826
00:37:40.980 --> 00:37:41.880
Yes, exactly.

827
00:37:41.940 --> 00:37:43.019
Don't look at me like that.

828
00:37:43.079 --> 00:37:44.760
The 1st doctor, of course, does it?

829
00:37:44.820 --> 00:37:47.159
Which is absolutely perfect for him in that era.

830
00:37:47.219 --> 00:37:51.119
I always wondered how Tegan got from square 2 to square 9 in one

831
00:37:51.119 --> 00:37:53.880
jump, you know, that she was going across.

832
00:37:53.940 --> 00:37:54.840
I don't I was trying.

833
00:37:54.900 --> 00:37:55.980
Yeah, don't think about it.

834
00:37:56.039 --> 00:38:00.300
I just love the weight and just walks across like, there's no

835
00:38:00.300 --> 00:38:00.960
rhyme or reason.

836
00:38:01.019 --> 00:38:04.019
I'm going, you're not going to, like, don't step over the lines

837
00:38:04.019 --> 00:38:05.340
like, in the little boxes.

838
00:38:05.400 --> 00:38:08.940
So I think it has to let Time Lords through.

839
00:38:09.300 --> 00:38:10.679
Yeah.

840
00:38:10.739 --> 00:38:15.659
And the novelisation is rather wonderful with that in that he

841
00:38:15.659 --> 00:38:18.900
starts sort of figuring it out and then the paragraph is something

842
00:38:18.900 --> 00:38:20.219
all lines off.

843
00:38:20.280 --> 00:38:23.400
Tegan had no idea what the doctor was doing, but before she knew

844
00:38:23.400 --> 00:38:25.320
it, he was over the other side of the board.

845
00:38:25.380 --> 00:38:29.519
So even Terrence is going, I don't understand how it works.

846
00:38:29.579 --> 00:38:30.539
I just wrote it.

847
00:38:30.599 --> 00:38:31.139
Screw you.

848
00:38:41.579 --> 00:38:45.960
Terrence in the novelisation does fix, I would suggest the two

849
00:38:45.960 --> 00:38:50.460
eras of production, which I put the pie sequence down to, because

850
00:38:50.460 --> 00:38:52.199
I think that's just, that was never going to be capable of

851
00:38:52.199 --> 00:38:52.559
working.

852
00:38:52.619 --> 00:38:56.760
And that is the sequence by the road with Sarah, which is

853
00:38:56.760 --> 00:39:00.239
unfortunately, shot and beat him off it on the documentary, sort

854
00:39:00.239 --> 00:39:01.440
of says, look, we tried, we tried.

855
00:39:01.500 --> 00:39:02.340
There was just no suitable.

856
00:39:02.579 --> 00:39:04.739
And actually, I think it's that sequence, which is responsible for

857
00:39:04.739 --> 00:39:07.260
a lot of his reputation in fandom as bad director.

858
00:39:07.320 --> 00:39:07.739
Exactly.

859
00:39:07.800 --> 00:39:10.019
But it's not just that then you got this longer shot as the car's

860
00:39:10.019 --> 00:39:12.300
driving off, which makes it even clearer that it's just a kind of

861
00:39:12.300 --> 00:39:13.440
a little thing that she could have walked up.

862
00:39:13.500 --> 00:39:16.920
See, surely the better decision then was for them to go, okay, this

863
00:39:16.920 --> 00:39:17.940
cannot work then.

864
00:39:18.000 --> 00:39:20.760
So she slips and trips because of the mist, she falls down the

865
00:39:20.760 --> 00:39:22.380
slope, and he just helps her out.

866
00:39:22.380 --> 00:39:24.960
Rather, like a power.

867
00:39:25.019 --> 00:39:27.599
That's the thing that makes it ridiculous.

868
00:39:27.599 --> 00:39:30.360
And her reaction being a bit too much for falling down the thing.

869
00:39:30.420 --> 00:39:32.219
She just should be upset for, I don't know where I am.

870
00:39:32.280 --> 00:39:35.219
And the other sequence is that Susan tripping over that Noll?

871
00:39:35.280 --> 00:39:38.760
Okay, there are 3 areas of production, so I think I should be, that

872
00:39:38.760 --> 00:39:40.980
was a bit rubbish, but it does allow her to then not be able to

873
00:39:40.980 --> 00:39:44.099
join the 1st doctor and Tegan on their trip to the tower.

874
00:39:44.159 --> 00:39:45.539
So there's a story reason for that.

875
00:39:45.599 --> 00:39:47.699
And it's like she's a 60s companion and she's rubbish.

876
00:39:47.760 --> 00:39:50.820
Oh, just as an aside, don't you love the bit when they're running

877
00:39:50.820 --> 00:39:53.880
through the kind of the maze with being chased by the darling.

878
00:39:53.940 --> 00:39:57.900
Caroline Ford is giving her best and an earthly child running

879
00:39:57.900 --> 00:40:00.239
slowly whilst trying to look exhausted.

880
00:40:00.300 --> 00:40:03.360
It's almost like she should be in close up running on the spot.

881
00:40:03.420 --> 00:40:04.380
Yes, running on the spot.

882
00:40:04.920 --> 00:40:06.420
Tree branches.

883
00:40:06.480 --> 00:40:09.179
I think she is also being sensitive to the fact that Richard

884
00:40:09.179 --> 00:40:10.380
Herndle is 72.

885
00:40:10.860 --> 00:40:12.960
He's a very young.

886
00:40:13.019 --> 00:40:14.280
Don't get me wrong.

887
00:40:14.340 --> 00:40:15.780
I was surprised he was 72.

888
00:40:16.019 --> 00:40:16.500
Yeah.

889
00:40:16.559 --> 00:40:19.440
When you consider that the original actor was only what, 55?

890
00:40:19.860 --> 00:40:20.400
Yeah, yeah.

891
00:40:20.460 --> 00:40:24.900
And Todd, we talked about this back in the day is the Ruston

892
00:40:24.900 --> 00:40:28.800
Warrior robot sequence where dear Elizabeth Slayton is being as

893
00:40:28.800 --> 00:40:29.699
still as she can.

894
00:40:29.760 --> 00:40:33.480
Well, John Pertwee feels completely able to move his head from

895
00:40:33.480 --> 00:40:36.000
side to side, not be shocked by the Raston Warrior robot, which is

896
00:40:36.000 --> 00:40:37.619
a bit like they could have done that a bit better.

897
00:40:37.679 --> 00:40:39.719
Does the brigadier turns his head as well?

898
00:40:40.500 --> 00:40:42.719
Yeah, Barusa freezes them all.

899
00:40:42.780 --> 00:40:43.079
Yeah.

900
00:40:43.139 --> 00:40:47.880
I'm always disappointed that poor Susan never got, we never got to

901
00:40:47.880 --> 00:40:48.780
see her time scooped.

902
00:40:48.840 --> 00:40:49.500
Do you know what I mean?

903
00:40:49.559 --> 00:40:51.900
Like, I always felt that in the novelisation.

904
00:40:51.960 --> 00:40:52.559
You're right.

905
00:40:52.619 --> 00:40:53.820
It's in the novelisation.

906
00:40:53.880 --> 00:40:57.059
But I always found that strange that everybody else, like Sarah

907
00:40:57.059 --> 00:40:58.920
got time scooped, but she just appeared.

908
00:40:58.980 --> 00:40:59.760
Do you know what I mean?

909
00:40:59.820 --> 00:41:03.300
Like, I know it's sort of a, not a jump scare, but, you know, it's

910
00:41:03.300 --> 00:41:06.360
the, oh, there's somebody else here, but I just thought it was

911
00:41:06.360 --> 00:41:06.539
weird.

912
00:41:06.599 --> 00:41:10.980
I wonder if they just didn't want to kind of say where Susan had

913
00:41:10.980 --> 00:41:11.460
ended up.

914
00:41:11.519 --> 00:41:15.719
I think it could also be a matter of, for the others, it was very

915
00:41:15.719 --> 00:41:18.539
easy to do it in sort of controlling.

916
00:41:18.539 --> 00:41:23.099
North Wales. but also controlled environments and places that

917
00:41:23.099 --> 00:41:24.119
didn't need set dressing.

918
00:41:24.179 --> 00:41:27.239
Like everyone else is ostensibly taken either from the present day

919
00:41:27.239 --> 00:41:28.860
or from an indeterminate period.

920
00:41:28.920 --> 00:41:33.119
We know that Susan is in the 22nd century in the novelisation.

921
00:41:33.179 --> 00:41:36.960
She's, you know, wandering through ruins, but also going, oh, these

922
00:41:36.960 --> 00:41:40.800
new buildings have come up and reconstruction and those wonderful

923
00:41:40.800 --> 00:41:41.699
moving walkways.

924
00:41:41.760 --> 00:41:42.239
Yeah.

925
00:41:42.960 --> 00:41:47.519
And, you know, it's just a matter of, okay, in order to do Susan

926
00:41:47.519 --> 00:41:49.679
either they would have had to put her in a total wasteland, which

927
00:41:49.679 --> 00:41:54.179
means she's been in a total wasteland for 20 years, or it's a

928
00:41:54.179 --> 00:41:57.179
setting that would be a setting for an entire four-part story.

929
00:41:57.239 --> 00:41:58.559
Exactly, yeah. too hard.

930
00:41:58.619 --> 00:42:01.019
And it's one of those things that is then left to the

931
00:42:01.019 --> 00:42:01.619
imagination.

932
00:42:01.679 --> 00:42:04.500
And I really love the way Terrence does it in the novelisation and

933
00:42:04.500 --> 00:42:08.219
she's happy with David and he's rebuilding the earth and she's

934
00:42:08.219 --> 00:42:09.239
rebuilding the earth.

935
00:42:09.239 --> 00:42:14.639
And it's interesting that whenever Susan has been brought back in

936
00:42:14.639 --> 00:42:18.059
various media, be it the 5 doctors, be it the big finish with Paul

937
00:42:18.059 --> 00:42:18.780
McGann.

938
00:42:18.840 --> 00:42:22.260
They make it very clear that she had a happy life with David.

939
00:42:22.320 --> 00:42:27.239
You know, as funny as that Jane Asher thing is, and as much as we

940
00:42:27.239 --> 00:42:30.059
you know, I believe on our last 5 doctors episode, Richard

941
00:42:30.059 --> 00:42:33.539
screamed, now get out of my ship, you painted.

942
00:42:34.500 --> 00:42:37.619
She had a happy life with David, she does love him.

943
00:42:37.679 --> 00:42:38.039
She does.

944
00:42:38.099 --> 00:42:39.059
She does, he does.

945
00:42:39.119 --> 00:42:39.780
She does.

946
00:42:39.840 --> 00:42:44.820
The other bit of nice interiority we get in the novelisation is

947
00:42:44.820 --> 00:42:49.800
that the reason that Sarah dismisses canine's warning is she still

948
00:42:49.800 --> 00:42:52.260
hurt by the fact the doctor never came back.

949
00:42:52.320 --> 00:42:56.219
That's why she won't believe that the doctor's involved because he

950
00:42:56.219 --> 00:42:58.139
hasn't come back in however many years.

951
00:42:58.199 --> 00:43:04.440
And then in the Dark Tower, when she says to Tegan, which one's

952
00:43:04.440 --> 00:43:06.059
yours, because that's still in the novelisation.

953
00:43:06.119 --> 00:43:08.880
Tegan explains, well, none of these ones, I've actually got this

954
00:43:08.880 --> 00:43:13.619
one, and Sarah figures out that the 4th doctor isn't here, and

955
00:43:13.619 --> 00:43:15.659
she's disappointed because it would have been nice to see him

956
00:43:15.659 --> 00:43:16.079
again.

957
00:43:16.139 --> 00:43:19.019
And I think that's Terence kind of going, hey, if anyone ever

958
00:43:19.019 --> 00:43:22.860
tells Tom about this, If Tom's ever signing the novelisation, I'd

959
00:43:22.860 --> 00:43:24.900
like for the mention of him to be fond.

960
00:43:24.960 --> 00:43:25.559
Yeah.

961
00:43:25.559 --> 00:43:27.960
And in fact, Liz Slayton said that when she was there for the

962
00:43:27.960 --> 00:43:31.679
photo call where they had the dummy from Madame Tussauds, and the

963
00:43:31.679 --> 00:43:33.780
other doctors were kind of mucking around with it, kind of like

964
00:43:33.780 --> 00:43:36.539
poking him and like pretending to defer to him and all that.

965
00:43:36.599 --> 00:43:37.380
She didn't like it.

966
00:43:37.440 --> 00:43:40.800
She felt uncomfortable because that's not how she viewed Tom.

967
00:43:40.860 --> 00:43:45.960
That scene, Brendan, where Tegan and Sarah say hello to each other

968
00:43:45.960 --> 00:43:49.860
and then the brigadier recognises both of them, and the 3rd doctor

969
00:43:49.860 --> 00:43:51.719
comes over and says hello to the brigadier.

970
00:43:51.780 --> 00:43:52.980
That's all one sequence.

971
00:43:53.039 --> 00:43:58.199
It lasts for about 45 seconds and is absolutely the most

972
00:43:58.199 --> 00:44:02.039
heartwarming scene of the episode because we didn't need any of

973
00:44:02.039 --> 00:44:02.519
those bits.

974
00:44:02.639 --> 00:44:05.340
If it had been a modern television program.

975
00:44:05.400 --> 00:44:08.519
They'd have milked every last bit of emotion out of it and would

976
00:44:08.519 --> 00:44:11.760
have had fanboys and fan goals bawling at the screen 5 minutes

977
00:44:11.760 --> 00:44:12.000
in.

978
00:44:12.119 --> 00:44:13.739
I was in tears after 3 minutes.

979
00:44:13.800 --> 00:44:14.280
Exactly.

980
00:44:14.340 --> 00:44:16.920
Whereas it's just the perfect level.

981
00:44:16.980 --> 00:44:18.780
Terrence knows exactly how to pitch it.

982
00:44:18.840 --> 00:44:21.420
We need that meeting between the 3rd doctor and Abedia.

983
00:44:21.480 --> 00:44:22.320
They can't ignore each other.

984
00:44:22.380 --> 00:44:25.320
It's over and done with in 15 seconds and it's amazing.

985
00:44:25.380 --> 00:44:28.920
I actually think that that is the biggest shame about it.

986
00:44:28.980 --> 00:44:33.179
We don't get a sense of, and the show doesn't do it at this time

987
00:44:33.179 --> 00:44:37.920
and, you know, it goes on to do it much better in the 21st century

988
00:44:37.920 --> 00:44:41.820
I think, which is to give some sense of what it's really like to

989
00:44:41.820 --> 00:44:44.340
travel with a doctor and to have had this experience.

990
00:44:44.400 --> 00:44:48.059
And there's a kind of stiffness, even to the brigadier coming over

991
00:44:48.059 --> 00:44:49.320
and saying, Miss Smith, isn't it?

992
00:44:49.380 --> 00:44:51.179
And you kind of go, really?

993
00:44:51.239 --> 00:44:53.039
You know, maybe it's not.

994
00:44:53.099 --> 00:44:57.300
I don't know It all just seems to lack a very English way of

995
00:44:57.300 --> 00:44:57.900
expressing something.

996
00:44:57.960 --> 00:44:58.920
Maybe, maybe.

997
00:44:58.980 --> 00:45:02.039
But then, of course, we get Barusa coming in and freezing everyone

998
00:45:02.039 --> 00:45:05.219
before they start having any interaction.

999
00:45:05.280 --> 00:45:09.840
Like very definitely isn't about that and isn't intending to be

1000
00:45:09.840 --> 00:45:10.260
about that.

1001
00:45:10.380 --> 00:45:14.400
It's not failing to be about that, but it is a bit of a shame that

1002
00:45:14.400 --> 00:45:15.300
we don't get more of it.

1003
00:45:15.360 --> 00:45:19.500
It's a little bit like Ian Marty coming back for Android Invasion

1004
00:45:19.500 --> 00:45:22.860
and no one really seeming to kind of bat an eyelid that Harry's

1005
00:45:22.860 --> 00:45:23.039
here.

1006
00:45:23.099 --> 00:45:26.579
I love it in the book that Sarah and Teagan get to talk about

1007
00:45:26.579 --> 00:45:27.599
which doctor is which.

1008
00:45:27.659 --> 00:45:29.280
Like, yeah.

1009
00:45:29.340 --> 00:45:31.260
That's my little fun boy heart going.

1010
00:45:31.320 --> 00:45:32.099
Yeah.

1011
00:45:32.099 --> 00:45:36.119
But I think the modern era goes into far too hard at trying to

1012
00:45:36.119 --> 00:45:39.900
think, well, what would it be like to travel the doctor and the

1013
00:45:39.900 --> 00:45:42.539
impact it would have on your life and in some respects, it's

1014
00:45:42.539 --> 00:45:45.179
trying too hard to show the devastating impact it can have on your

1015
00:45:45.179 --> 00:45:45.539
life.

1016
00:45:45.659 --> 00:45:48.840
Whereas I think the show needs a little bit more of the innocence

1017
00:45:48.840 --> 00:45:52.860
that you get here for it to work because it is horrific and

1018
00:45:52.860 --> 00:45:53.579
ridiculous.

1019
00:45:53.639 --> 00:45:57.539
And, you know, your life is in peril every time you step out of

1020
00:45:57.539 --> 00:45:58.320
the Tartars, really.

1021
00:45:58.380 --> 00:45:59.880
Who in their right mind would do that.

1022
00:45:59.940 --> 00:46:03.360
And so you have to kind of hide that conceit by basically not

1023
00:46:03.360 --> 00:46:03.900
dealing with it.

1024
00:46:03.960 --> 00:46:08.159
And to be fair, you know, the new series does kind of do that at

1025
00:46:08.159 --> 00:46:09.059
glosses over that.

1026
00:46:09.119 --> 00:46:13.199
And in Russell's era, with the exception of Donna, everyone leaves

1027
00:46:13.199 --> 00:46:15.059
kind of slightly better off or something.

1028
00:46:15.119 --> 00:46:16.079
Do you know what I mean?

1029
00:46:16.199 --> 00:46:18.599
They get a new job, they get a new dad back.

1030
00:46:18.659 --> 00:46:22.739
They get, you know, like, thing is, I quite like when Martha and

1031
00:46:22.739 --> 00:46:26.820
Donna meet and Martha sort of gently but firmly says to Donna, you

1032
00:46:26.820 --> 00:46:29.579
need to think about the effect this is having on your life.

1033
00:46:29.639 --> 00:46:33.000
You don't need to stop and I went through something terrible.

1034
00:46:33.059 --> 00:46:34.500
It wasn't the doctor's fault.

1035
00:46:34.619 --> 00:46:35.639
We're still friends.

1036
00:46:35.699 --> 00:46:38.579
I would still do anything for him, but Donna, you know, you just

1037
00:46:38.579 --> 00:46:39.960
need to think about what you're doing.

1038
00:46:40.019 --> 00:46:43.679
And then Martha fully is on board with Donna carrying on

1039
00:46:43.679 --> 00:46:45.420
travelling just as she's fully on board with.

1040
00:46:45.480 --> 00:46:49.199
No, no, no, I'm going to go home and not marry Tom Milligan for

1041
00:46:49.199 --> 00:46:49.619
some reason.

1042
00:46:51.179 --> 00:46:53.639
But see, this is also Terrence.

1043
00:46:53.699 --> 00:46:55.679
Terence didn't. gush with emotion.

1044
00:46:55.739 --> 00:46:57.239
He's not that kind of person.

1045
00:46:57.300 --> 00:47:00.300
And so when we think about the classic series and we think about

1046
00:47:00.300 --> 00:47:03.420
the most potent departures with companions, for instance, then Joe

1047
00:47:03.420 --> 00:47:07.440
Grant is right up there because Terrence knew that he had to set

1048
00:47:07.440 --> 00:47:11.039
that up at the start of the story in a scene and then pay it off

1049
00:47:11.039 --> 00:47:13.980
in a wonderful scene at the end, which is really heartwarming.

1050
00:47:14.039 --> 00:47:16.139
And that scene at the end of the Green Death is kind of the

1051
00:47:16.139 --> 00:47:18.179
interactions that we get in the 5 doctors.

1052
00:47:18.239 --> 00:47:20.820
They're momentarily affecting, and then we move on with the

1053
00:47:20.820 --> 00:47:21.059
story.

1054
00:47:21.119 --> 00:47:22.320
That's what the classic series did.

1055
00:47:22.380 --> 00:47:28.559
It's funny that Terrence actually gets the climactic moment in Day

1056
00:47:28.559 --> 00:47:34.440
of the Doctor, where the various doctors repeat his speech from

1057
00:47:34.440 --> 00:47:39.239
the 1976 edition of the making of Doctor Who. you know, the never

1058
00:47:39.239 --> 00:47:44.280
cruel or cowardly speech, and that gets given to the doctors, and

1059
00:47:44.280 --> 00:47:48.420
it is the thing that the show is about, because ultimately day of

1060
00:47:48.420 --> 00:47:52.019
the doctor is a proper Doctor Who adventure, and doesn't just

1061
00:47:52.019 --> 00:47:55.440
showcase a sort of bunch of people who'd been in the regular class

1062
00:47:55.440 --> 00:48:00.840
before, and it aspires to say something about who the doctor is

1063
00:48:00.840 --> 00:48:07.380
and the big moment is the doctor reclaiming that title, you know

1064
00:48:07.380 --> 00:48:10.500
John Hertz doctor, reclaim that title, with the assistance of the

1065
00:48:10.500 --> 00:48:13.079
other 2 doctors and Clara and so on.

1066
00:48:13.139 --> 00:48:18.480
But the title is defined by Terrence in that speech, which is

1067
00:48:18.480 --> 00:48:19.920
pretty incredible, I think.

1068
00:48:19.980 --> 00:48:23.280
You know, I think Terence actually gets a bit of raw deal.

1069
00:48:23.340 --> 00:48:26.579
People say that this was a puzzle box kind of jigsaw that he put

1070
00:48:26.579 --> 00:48:27.420
together, which is true.

1071
00:48:27.480 --> 00:48:31.739
But I think he also finds ways to make it thematic.

1072
00:48:31.800 --> 00:48:34.440
And so, of course, it's about immortality.

1073
00:48:34.440 --> 00:48:39.780
And the unchanging nature of Gallifrey and Barusa, who, for all of

1074
00:48:39.780 --> 00:48:42.480
his different faces, has been at the apex at the Time Lord

1075
00:48:42.480 --> 00:48:43.860
hierarchy forever and ever.

1076
00:48:43.920 --> 00:48:46.739
And that's contrasted against the doctor, who is more free

1077
00:48:46.739 --> 00:48:50.639
wheeling, more anarchic, and realise that immortality is a curse.

1078
00:48:50.699 --> 00:48:53.340
And so what the program has done throughout its 20 years up to

1079
00:48:53.340 --> 00:48:55.079
this point is constantly changed.

1080
00:48:55.139 --> 00:48:58.440
And that's what Brusa doesn't want.

1081
00:48:58.500 --> 00:49:02.159
He wants to be in charge forever and calcify.

1082
00:49:02.219 --> 00:49:03.900
That's what the doctor is fighting against.

1083
00:49:03.960 --> 00:49:05.760
So Terence is actually working in a theme there.

1084
00:49:05.820 --> 00:49:06.900
I think you're right.

1085
00:49:06.960 --> 00:49:11.820
He's actually like, you know, bringing in Barusa and making him a

1086
00:49:11.820 --> 00:49:12.360
villain.

1087
00:49:12.420 --> 00:49:14.099
I was totally shocked.

1088
00:49:14.159 --> 00:49:15.300
Like, I didn't see it coming.

1089
00:49:15.360 --> 00:49:19.380
But that's my 12 year old self, but also bringing in Wrestleon as

1090
00:49:19.380 --> 00:49:23.159
well, who's being mentioned, you know, but always that mysterious

1091
00:49:23.159 --> 00:49:23.699
figure.

1092
00:49:23.760 --> 00:49:27.780
And I just love how he also, like, he works in the dialect.

1093
00:49:27.840 --> 00:49:29.760
He works in all the cybermen, and then he comes up with something

1094
00:49:29.760 --> 00:49:33.300
new with the Western Oreo robot, which, wait, Terence was in a

1095
00:49:33.300 --> 00:49:34.320
dalek and aside them.

1096
00:49:36.900 --> 00:49:38.340
Yes.

1097
00:49:39.239 --> 00:49:42.539
And yeti, obviously, but having that greater hits of things, but

1098
00:49:42.539 --> 00:49:46.199
also having that new element, you know, and making a twist on the

1099
00:49:46.199 --> 00:49:46.500
old.

1100
00:49:46.559 --> 00:49:50.340
It's funny, he said that he had to fight to get a dalek in there.

1101
00:49:50.400 --> 00:49:54.119
And it was so obvious that you had to have Hartnell with a

1102
00:49:54.119 --> 00:49:54.480
darling.

1103
00:49:54.599 --> 00:49:57.960
Is that partly because it was supposed to be a warhead that was

1104
00:49:57.960 --> 00:49:59.519
supposed to be the story to end season 20?

1105
00:49:59.579 --> 00:50:01.860
There would have been 2 Dalek stories in a row, but that surely

1106
00:50:01.860 --> 00:50:03.179
wouldn't have been an issue. if it was.

1107
00:50:03.300 --> 00:50:07.860
It is also the 1st appearance of the Daleks in the JNT era.

1108
00:50:07.920 --> 00:50:11.219
You know, he had wanted the Daleks to be a big thing at the end of

1109
00:50:11.219 --> 00:50:11.760
season 20.

1110
00:50:12.059 --> 00:50:15.599
He didn't want to just introduce them for a scene at the beginning

1111
00:50:15.599 --> 00:50:16.440
of this, I think.

1112
00:50:16.559 --> 00:50:19.800
You know, when it gets killed and that mutant's all being all

1113
00:50:19.800 --> 00:50:20.099
shaking.

1114
00:50:20.159 --> 00:50:22.320
I think that's brilliant Well, that's the other thing too, of

1115
00:50:22.320 --> 00:50:26.639
course, because as kids, as little kids, seeing the Dalek Muse

1116
00:50:26.639 --> 00:50:29.159
absolutely really wants it to do.

1117
00:50:29.280 --> 00:50:32.460
Richard Herndle should have sent Susan to the end of the corridor

1118
00:50:32.460 --> 00:50:33.239
so she didn't have to see that.

1119
00:50:35.519 --> 00:50:38.880
But picking up on the themes, again, what you're saying there

1120
00:50:38.880 --> 00:50:40.380
Peter, it is quite extraordinary.

1121
00:50:40.440 --> 00:50:42.960
I think it is a great moral of the story in that, you know, you

1122
00:50:42.960 --> 00:50:45.900
can have certain aspects of our life, certain aspects of our

1123
00:50:45.900 --> 00:50:48.179
society are unchanging.

1124
00:50:48.239 --> 00:50:50.940
You know, there are certain values which are timeless and certain

1125
00:50:50.940 --> 00:50:54.179
elements which are timeless, but at the same time, we have to let

1126
00:50:54.179 --> 00:50:56.760
go, people change, people die and move on.

1127
00:50:56.820 --> 00:50:59.039
And it is also a celebration of that.

1128
00:50:59.099 --> 00:51:02.579
And I think that's why perhaps Nathan, it doesn't become teary in

1129
00:51:02.579 --> 00:51:07.019
a way that you might have wanted it because in some respects, we

1130
00:51:07.019 --> 00:51:08.159
shouldn't be sad.

1131
00:51:08.280 --> 00:51:08.820
We should be happy.

1132
00:51:08.880 --> 00:51:09.900
You know what I mean?

1133
00:51:09.960 --> 00:51:13.800
And the goodbye, the goodbyes are never, never forever in Doctor

1134
00:51:13.800 --> 00:51:14.159
Who.

1135
00:51:14.219 --> 00:51:17.519
I didn't think I wanted it to be teary, but I did think I wanted

1136
00:51:17.519 --> 00:51:20.579
there to be a little bit more warmth between the characters.

1137
00:51:20.639 --> 00:51:21.300
That moment.

1138
00:51:21.300 --> 00:51:22.320
A lot of warmth.

1139
00:51:22.380 --> 00:51:26.940
Well, but the moment where Susan meets Peter Davison's doctor and

1140
00:51:26.940 --> 00:51:32.280
just kind of checks him out and stuff and like there's nothing

1141
00:51:32.280 --> 00:51:35.579
really there about, you know, Susan and her special relationship

1142
00:51:35.579 --> 00:51:38.639
with the doctor, you know, they don't try and fill one another in

1143
00:51:38.639 --> 00:51:42.000
on how they've been going or anything like that because there

1144
00:51:42.000 --> 00:51:44.039
isn't time and that's not what this show is about.

1145
00:51:44.159 --> 00:51:47.340
And also, there is a slight limitation, and of course, that

1146
00:51:47.340 --> 00:51:51.360
Terence came on board with the show at the end of the Trout era.

1147
00:51:51.420 --> 00:51:53.579
Like he was there for most of Troughton's last season.

1148
00:51:53.639 --> 00:51:59.099
So Carol Anne says that during the read-through in the script

1149
00:51:59.099 --> 00:52:04.679
Susan doesn't say grandfather, she says, doctor, and she raised

1150
00:52:04.679 --> 00:52:06.119
objections and it got changed.

1151
00:52:06.179 --> 00:52:09.840
And for many years, people have kind of gone, well, that's Eric

1152
00:52:09.840 --> 00:52:10.380
Saywood.

1153
00:52:10.440 --> 00:52:13.079
But I do also wonder if that's also Terence just not fully

1154
00:52:13.079 --> 00:52:13.679
understanding.

1155
00:52:13.739 --> 00:52:16.619
But at the same time, you know, he's novelized Darla invasion

1156
00:52:16.619 --> 00:52:16.980
birth.

1157
00:52:17.039 --> 00:52:18.179
So it is probably say word.

1158
00:52:18.239 --> 00:52:20.460
I think I think it's sabred in JNT.

1159
00:52:20.519 --> 00:52:24.300
I think it's JNT because there was this weirdness about the doctor

1160
00:52:24.300 --> 00:52:26.519
being grandfather.

1161
00:52:26.579 --> 00:52:27.780
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1162
00:52:27.840 --> 00:52:28.139
Yeah.

1163
00:52:28.380 --> 00:52:33.420
It's also, um, the thing that's interesting is that the 1st doctor

1164
00:52:33.420 --> 00:52:34.679
never calls it the ship.

1165
00:52:34.739 --> 00:52:36.780
Bishop, that would be great.

1166
00:52:36.840 --> 00:52:37.619
That would have been great.

1167
00:52:37.679 --> 00:52:38.880
Yes, that's what we...

1168
00:52:38.880 --> 00:52:40.019
It's not good to be the Tartars.

1169
00:52:40.079 --> 00:52:40.920
I think he does.

1170
00:52:40.920 --> 00:52:42.719
I think he does him twice upon a time.

1171
00:52:42.780 --> 00:52:44.219
Yes, he twice upon a time.

1172
00:52:44.280 --> 00:52:44.639
Yeah, exactly.

1173
00:52:53.699 --> 00:52:59.159
Can I go back to the 20th anniversary Radio Times special as a way

1174
00:52:59.159 --> 00:53:00.360
of talking about this year?

1175
00:53:00.420 --> 00:53:02.460
And don't forget a celebration.

1176
00:53:02.519 --> 00:53:03.599
And a celebration.

1177
00:53:03.659 --> 00:53:04.739
Peter Haning's a celebration.

1178
00:53:04.800 --> 00:53:07.800
Flawed though it is, but you know, we had to take what we could.

1179
00:53:07.860 --> 00:53:11.699
I mean, we were on the other side of the world compared to where

1180
00:53:11.699 --> 00:53:15.059
the celebrations were and in that documentary about the 5

1181
00:53:15.059 --> 00:53:15.539
doctors.

1182
00:53:15.599 --> 00:53:17.699
It's Fiona Cummings, on the credits.

1183
00:53:17.760 --> 00:53:20.099
So that must have been what the end of Snake Dance or something.

1184
00:53:20.219 --> 00:53:22.559
There's an announcement that Longleat's going to happen.

1185
00:53:22.679 --> 00:53:26.579
And it was in the 20th anniversary radio time, especially, which

1186
00:53:26.579 --> 00:53:28.619
I'm poring over Christmas.

1187
00:53:28.679 --> 00:53:32.280
And there are photos of that event and them all there and so on

1188
00:53:32.280 --> 00:53:32.639
like that.

1189
00:53:32.699 --> 00:53:35.340
And I kind of felt jealous, but I kind of didn't.

1190
00:53:35.340 --> 00:53:37.679
Like, I mean, I was completely aware that the prospect of me going

1191
00:53:37.679 --> 00:53:40.380
to such a thing was just completely out of the question, even if

1192
00:53:40.380 --> 00:53:42.719
I'd have known that it had been on.

1193
00:53:42.780 --> 00:53:45.719
But it was just this kind of awareness, suddenly you started

1194
00:53:45.719 --> 00:53:49.079
getting this awareness, the 1st awareness, that there was this

1195
00:53:49.079 --> 00:53:53.760
vast community of people out there who were as obsessed with the

1196
00:53:53.760 --> 00:53:55.079
show as you were.

1197
00:53:55.139 --> 00:53:58.860
And I think it's the 20th anniversary, which crystallises that

1198
00:53:58.860 --> 00:54:01.019
obsession in many of us.

1199
00:54:01.079 --> 00:54:02.579
Thanks to what you get in the media.

1200
00:54:02.639 --> 00:54:03.960
Because we did get a bit of media here.

1201
00:54:04.019 --> 00:54:07.139
I mean, that's why I knew 5 Doctors was on, not as much, but there

1202
00:54:07.139 --> 00:54:09.900
was still media and lots around Peter Davidson's visit.

1203
00:54:09.900 --> 00:54:11.940
And Peter Davidson's visits and so on like that.

1204
00:54:12.000 --> 00:54:13.079
So there was stuff happening.

1205
00:54:13.139 --> 00:54:17.219
So you just got a sense of this greater community and that's when

1206
00:54:17.219 --> 00:54:21.480
you start to, for the 1st time for me anyway, see the full lists

1207
00:54:21.480 --> 00:54:24.480
of stories and understand how it all goes together and so on like

1208
00:54:24.480 --> 00:54:24.719
that.

1209
00:54:24.780 --> 00:54:27.900
So you get this sense of ears and seasons because I didn't even

1210
00:54:27.900 --> 00:54:31.139
know that seasons worked the way they did until I saw the 20th

1211
00:54:31.139 --> 00:54:31.980
anniversary special.

1212
00:54:32.039 --> 00:54:35.579
I just saw them as, well, obviously they made a block from time

1213
00:54:35.579 --> 00:54:36.780
worry through the hand of fear.

1214
00:54:36.840 --> 00:54:37.800
Do you know what I mean?

1215
00:54:37.860 --> 00:54:39.119
Because of course, of course they did.

1216
00:54:39.179 --> 00:54:41.159
And then they made a block from face to evil because deadly

1217
00:54:41.159 --> 00:54:41.880
assassin didn't exist.

1218
00:54:41.940 --> 00:54:44.099
Face of evil through to invasive type. you know what I mean?

1219
00:54:44.159 --> 00:54:46.440
And they obviously made the block from leisure hive through the

1220
00:54:46.440 --> 00:54:47.699
time flight because that's the way we saw it.

1221
00:54:47.760 --> 00:54:51.960
Well, these kinds of ipochal publications, which formed our fan

1222
00:54:51.960 --> 00:54:52.739
view back then.

1223
00:54:52.800 --> 00:54:54.239
And each of them brings different things.

1224
00:54:54.300 --> 00:54:58.679
So for a long time, it was the making of Doctor Who, the 1976

1225
00:54:58.679 --> 00:55:01.559
edition, which did include all of those synopses right up to the

1226
00:55:01.559 --> 00:55:05.039
hand affair, and which, you know, formed your idea of what the

1227
00:55:05.039 --> 00:55:07.559
history of the program, what the breadth of it looked like.

1228
00:55:07.619 --> 00:55:11.460
But then when a celebration and the radio times 20th anniversary

1229
00:55:11.460 --> 00:55:15.780
special came out, it actually included qualitative judgement on a

1230
00:55:15.780 --> 00:55:16.440
lot of the stories.

1231
00:55:16.500 --> 00:55:19.739
Rather, unfortunately, included closer adjustment, I think.

1232
00:55:19.800 --> 00:55:23.400
Most times it sort of got them right with what received wisdom

1233
00:55:23.400 --> 00:55:23.699
was.

1234
00:55:23.760 --> 00:55:27.659
I can remember it saying about Talons Wen Chang that had few peers

1235
00:55:27.659 --> 00:55:28.800
which is true.

1236
00:55:28.860 --> 00:55:31.860
But there were certain things which were highly personal

1237
00:55:31.860 --> 00:55:35.760
judgements which then seeped into fandom and never really went

1238
00:55:35.760 --> 00:55:36.119
away.

1239
00:55:36.179 --> 00:55:37.380
The gunfighters?

1240
00:55:37.440 --> 00:55:39.239
Oh, the gunfighters, for instance, I mean, I happen to think

1241
00:55:39.239 --> 00:55:41.940
gunfighters is rubbish, but I understand most people don't.

1242
00:55:42.239 --> 00:55:45.960
And I think it was so important to have those publications because

1243
00:55:45.960 --> 00:55:49.019
it gave you an idea not just of what Doctor Who had been, but what

1244
00:55:49.019 --> 00:55:50.820
other people thought of Doctor Who.

1245
00:55:50.880 --> 00:55:51.119
Yes.

1246
00:55:51.119 --> 00:55:52.980
Whereas previously that had only been in your own head.

1247
00:55:53.039 --> 00:55:54.840
Just astonishing.

1248
00:55:54.900 --> 00:55:58.260
And I think the link to the fact that video recorders were

1249
00:55:58.260 --> 00:56:00.059
starting to become more ubiquitous.

1250
00:56:00.119 --> 00:56:02.639
Kind of like, you know, the way everyone started getting a

1251
00:56:02.639 --> 00:56:04.800
television from the coronation in Britain and everyone started

1252
00:56:04.800 --> 00:56:06.840
getting a television here with the Melbourne Olympics.

1253
00:56:06.900 --> 00:56:13.079
The 2 for me go together that the 5 doctors and and being able to

1254
00:56:13.079 --> 00:56:16.199
record it, not on an audio cassette, but actually on a videotape

1255
00:56:16.199 --> 00:56:19.920
where I could watch the real program, again, and you never look

1256
00:56:19.920 --> 00:56:20.099
back.

1257
00:56:20.159 --> 00:56:23.099
I think it's really interesting you talk about the fact that this

1258
00:56:23.099 --> 00:56:24.900
is the 1st time we actually thought about seasons.

1259
00:56:24.960 --> 00:56:27.719
I've never really thought about that before, but this is looking

1260
00:56:27.719 --> 00:56:31.019
at that radio times, things you suddenly got the different eras.

1261
00:56:31.079 --> 00:56:33.119
And I remember in the front cover, didn't they have all the

1262
00:56:33.119 --> 00:56:36.960
different credits of all the different...

1263
00:56:37.019 --> 00:56:40.739
They had a photo.

1264
00:56:40.860 --> 00:56:41.940
Oh, how could they do that?

1265
00:56:42.000 --> 00:56:42.780
How could they do that?

1266
00:56:42.900 --> 00:56:45.780
But I also think it's very interesting too, that this only got

1267
00:56:45.780 --> 00:56:49.980
7.700000 viewers and came 54th or 2nd or something for the week.

1268
00:56:50.039 --> 00:56:54.599
When the 3 doctors got at its peak, 11.9 was top 10.

1269
00:56:54.780 --> 00:56:58.260
But I'm just saying, like, there's a shift, like, this was still

1270
00:56:58.260 --> 00:57:03.539
more than most of the 20th season, but still a significant, I

1271
00:57:03.539 --> 00:57:06.420
would have expected it to have gotten around 10000000 and I don't

1272
00:57:06.420 --> 00:57:06.840
know why that is.

1273
00:57:06.900 --> 00:57:07.559
I do.

1274
00:57:07.559 --> 00:57:11.579
I believe it's because they made a bad call in having it go out in

1275
00:57:11.579 --> 00:57:14.579
children in need because children in need is made up of tiny

1276
00:57:14.579 --> 00:57:18.420
vignettes, whereas suddenly you're taking 90 minute chunk out of

1277
00:57:18.420 --> 00:57:20.820
that and just making it into a drama.

1278
00:57:20.940 --> 00:57:23.159
That's not what people tune in to children in need for.

1279
00:57:23.219 --> 00:57:24.239
And so I believe.

1280
00:57:24.360 --> 00:57:26.400
It's on in the background while you're having maybe a party in

1281
00:57:26.400 --> 00:57:27.659
donation.

1282
00:57:27.719 --> 00:57:29.760
It needed to be its own thing, and then I believe it would have

1283
00:57:29.760 --> 00:57:30.659
actually attracted me.

1284
00:57:30.719 --> 00:57:31.139
That was a shame.

1285
00:57:31.199 --> 00:57:32.760
Should have been shown on Saturday night or something, Frank.

1286
00:57:32.820 --> 00:57:36.119
So if you think it was on its own dedicated night and promoted as

1287
00:57:36.119 --> 00:57:38.519
such as this big thing that they could have got.

1288
00:57:38.579 --> 00:57:41.760
I've always found it really fascinating and I kind of thought of

1289
00:57:41.760 --> 00:57:44.699
it as a bit of a turning point that the show wasn't as popular

1290
00:57:44.699 --> 00:57:48.900
with the general public at this and it's all about to unravel.

1291
00:57:48.960 --> 00:57:54.719
Well, in fact, it's funny, but when we did the 2nd episode on Day

1292
00:57:54.719 --> 00:58:01.920
of the Doctor, we talked about how, like the 20th anniversary, the

1293
00:58:01.920 --> 00:58:07.139
day of the doctor kind of marks a kind of end of the program.

1294
00:58:07.139 --> 00:58:13.739
And in the 80s, of course, Doctor Who is going to stop remembering

1295
00:58:13.739 --> 00:58:17.340
that it's set in the corner of your living room and that it's

1296
00:58:17.340 --> 00:58:20.519
something that the whole family can watch. and it's going to

1297
00:58:20.519 --> 00:58:26.039
become a thing, that is more directed at rusted on fans.

1298
00:58:26.099 --> 00:58:30.840
And of course, we are just going to gradually see the decline of

1299
00:58:30.840 --> 00:58:32.159
the show in all sorts of ways.

1300
00:58:32.219 --> 00:58:33.900
And that doesn't mean that the show gets worse.

1301
00:58:33.960 --> 00:58:37.619
Some of my favourite stories come after the 5 doctors and some

1302
00:58:37.619 --> 00:58:39.179
great Doctor Who is still in there.

1303
00:58:39.239 --> 00:58:43.139
But there is a kind of sense in which we're heading inexorably

1304
00:58:43.139 --> 00:58:43.980
towards the end.

1305
00:58:44.099 --> 00:58:46.860
Yeah, because I think I was the one bringing that up.

1306
00:58:46.920 --> 00:58:50.400
There is a real parallel between the 5 doctors and the day of the

1307
00:58:50.400 --> 00:58:50.699
doctor.

1308
00:58:50.699 --> 00:58:53.460
And I agree with what you're saying, that the show does start to

1309
00:58:53.460 --> 00:58:56.760
eat itself as you move all through the rest of the 80s.

1310
00:58:56.820 --> 00:59:00.300
But yeah, some of my favourite stories are in that era, but I

1311
00:59:00.300 --> 00:59:02.940
think it doesn't eat itself as much as it might have.

1312
00:59:03.000 --> 00:59:05.940
In fact, I think it really starts eating itself when you get to

1313
00:59:05.940 --> 00:59:06.960
something like season 23.

1314
00:59:07.199 --> 00:59:12.420
It's that 85 cancellation which shakes everyone's confidence as to

1315
00:59:12.420 --> 00:59:13.079
what this program is.

1316
00:59:13.139 --> 00:59:16.019
And in many ways, it's unavoidable because when you have a huge

1317
00:59:16.019 --> 00:59:19.739
peak like this, a peak of public interest, you know, all

1318
00:59:19.739 --> 00:59:24.360
throughout that anniversary season in 2013 and all throughout 1983

1319
00:59:24.360 --> 00:59:27.420
there's a lot of attention focussed on the show, really the only

1320
00:59:27.420 --> 00:59:28.800
way to go from there is down.

1321
00:59:28.860 --> 00:59:31.739
And that's what I said with the day of the doctor as well, is that

1322
00:59:31.739 --> 00:59:35.219
there are so many appearances of the doctor who people in chat

1323
00:59:35.219 --> 00:59:35.519
shows.

1324
00:59:35.579 --> 00:59:39.780
Like there are 1983 is littered with clips of the various doctors

1325
00:59:39.780 --> 00:59:43.320
and companions in various combinations on everything from Blue

1326
00:59:43.320 --> 00:59:46.260
Peter at one end to like nationwide or something from the other.

1327
00:59:46.320 --> 00:59:47.820
Pebble millet one and everything.

1328
00:59:47.880 --> 00:59:50.219
They do the light, they do the series, they do everything.

1329
00:59:50.219 --> 00:59:53.940
And it's not just the fact that the public are sick of it.

1330
00:59:54.000 --> 00:59:57.480
It's the fact that the PR people are sick of it.

1331
00:59:57.539 --> 00:59:59.579
They feel like, well, we've had those people on.

1332
00:59:59.639 --> 01:00:01.980
We don't need to promote the new series.

1333
01:00:01.980 --> 01:00:03.300
Oh, Doctor Who's been around forever.

1334
01:00:03.360 --> 01:00:04.260
We don't need to worry about that.

1335
01:00:04.320 --> 01:00:07.679
They move on and I think that actually has a detrimental effect in

1336
01:00:07.679 --> 01:00:07.980
it.

1337
01:00:08.039 --> 01:00:11.159
It's like you lose the soft diplomacy and you otherwise get

1338
01:00:11.280 --> 01:00:14.219
everyone's eyes are on it, including the BBC hierarchy.

1339
01:00:14.280 --> 01:00:15.059
Yes.

1340
01:00:15.119 --> 01:00:17.699
And that's also to do with changes of personnel at the top. that

1341
01:00:17.699 --> 01:00:18.719
starts coming.

1342
01:00:18.780 --> 01:00:21.599
So a parallel thing that happens here with David Hill taking over

1343
01:00:21.599 --> 01:00:22.199
the ABC.

1344
01:00:22.260 --> 01:00:26.219
David Hill is our Michael Grade for what he does to the way the

1345
01:00:26.219 --> 01:00:27.480
show is presented in Australia.

1346
01:00:27.539 --> 01:00:31.920
And as well as other aspects that he, quote unquote, modernises

1347
01:00:31.920 --> 01:00:34.980
the ABC, like what Michael Gray was trying to do to the BBC, some

1348
01:00:34.980 --> 01:00:35.880
of which needed to be done.

1349
01:00:35.940 --> 01:00:36.360
Absolutely.

1350
01:00:36.360 --> 01:00:38.639
But...

1351
01:00:38.639 --> 01:00:41.400
A certain amount of baby was thrown out with the bathwater in both

1352
01:00:41.400 --> 01:00:41.820
instance.

1353
01:00:41.880 --> 01:00:45.900
But the point is that you were inevitably going to have a hangover

1354
01:00:45.900 --> 01:00:49.440
and the problem with the 5 doctors hangover is, I think, it lasts

1355
01:00:49.440 --> 01:00:53.099
basically until season 25 or 26.

1356
01:00:53.280 --> 01:00:55.800
Basically, I think the show is starting to come out of the

1357
01:00:55.800 --> 01:00:58.260
hangover when the rug is pulled from under it.

1358
01:00:58.260 --> 01:01:01.679
And I wonder whether the 50th anniversary hangover is actually

1359
01:01:01.679 --> 01:01:02.159
still with us.

1360
01:01:02.219 --> 01:01:05.159
The problem of focussing so much for your attention on the

1361
01:01:05.159 --> 01:01:09.059
anniversary in 1983 is that it lays clear that a lot of the

1362
01:01:09.059 --> 01:01:12.360
viewer's fondness for the show actually dated from a few years

1363
01:01:12.360 --> 01:01:12.780
back.

1364
01:01:12.840 --> 01:01:18.539
So the 1983 season was by any marker, not as popular as, say, the

1365
01:01:18.539 --> 01:01:20.519
Hinchcliffe or Williams eras.

1366
01:01:20.639 --> 01:01:22.260
And I think it suddenly becomes clear.

1367
01:01:22.320 --> 01:01:25.619
In things like the ratings, even though Longleat was

1368
01:01:25.619 --> 01:01:26.820
oversubscribed with people.

1369
01:01:26.880 --> 01:01:28.500
We're talking about 50,000 people here.

1370
01:01:28.559 --> 01:01:30.300
We're not talking about 15 million.

1371
01:01:30.420 --> 01:01:34.679
And so I think suddenly, everybody, including the papers and the

1372
01:01:34.679 --> 01:01:38.280
BBC hierarchy, realised that this was an old property, even though

1373
01:01:38.280 --> 01:01:39.599
they were celebrating 20 years.

1374
01:01:39.719 --> 01:01:45.119
And certainly the site of those doctors at the top of Rasselon's

1375
01:01:45.119 --> 01:01:50.280
tower in the tomb and Tom not being there, you've got these 3 very

1376
01:01:50.280 --> 01:01:56.219
old men and P. and Tom, who had been the doctor for 7 years is

1377
01:01:56.219 --> 01:01:57.239
nowhere to be seen.

1378
01:01:57.960 --> 01:02:01.019
That basically a 3rd of the program is missing.

1379
01:02:01.079 --> 01:02:01.920
Yeah, sad.

1380
01:02:01.980 --> 01:02:05.400
And also, this is entirely understandable because you have one

1381
01:02:05.400 --> 01:02:07.320
costume designer doing all these costumes.

1382
01:02:07.380 --> 01:02:11.340
He comes up with new versions of the old doctor's costumes that

1383
01:02:11.340 --> 01:02:16.679
look sympathetic to each other, but that means that that shot The

1384
01:02:16.679 --> 01:02:21.840
predominant colours are beige, and tan, and burgundy.

1385
01:02:21.840 --> 01:02:22.679
And pink.

1386
01:02:22.679 --> 01:02:25.079
Oh, I just mean the doctors.

1387
01:02:25.139 --> 01:02:29.579
But yeah, the girls are all put in shades of pink and purple.

1388
01:02:29.639 --> 01:02:32.699
Like, it's possibly the worst outfit Sarah has.

1389
01:02:32.760 --> 01:02:33.960
Oh, no, not possibly.

1390
01:02:34.559 --> 01:02:36.420
Oh, it's awful.

1391
01:02:36.480 --> 01:02:37.619
Another nomination?

1392
01:02:37.679 --> 01:02:38.760
No, no, no.

1393
01:02:38.820 --> 01:02:42.719
I met up with Elizabeth Stain once in London and it was a rainy

1394
01:02:42.719 --> 01:02:47.159
day and she emerged from the tube in this see-through plastic

1395
01:02:47.159 --> 01:02:48.179
raincoat thing.

1396
01:02:48.239 --> 01:02:51.059
And I was with my friend Sarah and we just looked at each other

1397
01:02:51.059 --> 01:02:54.780
and going, what the hell is, this is out of the 5 doctors.

1398
01:02:54.900 --> 01:02:57.000
Personal ring.

1399
01:02:57.059 --> 01:02:58.139
I just have to throw that.

1400
01:02:58.199 --> 01:03:00.239
I mean, we have to be thankful for small mercies.

1401
01:03:00.300 --> 01:03:03.360
There is a different universe, not too far from ours where she's

1402
01:03:03.360 --> 01:03:04.739
wearing the Andy-pandy outfit.

1403
01:03:04.800 --> 01:03:06.659
I would have been brave.

1404
01:03:08.219 --> 01:03:10.440
But, you know, she's leaving her house at the beginning because

1405
01:03:10.440 --> 01:03:12.000
she's going to a costume party.

1406
01:03:12.360 --> 01:03:15.000
And everyone's like throughout the whole story.

1407
01:03:15.059 --> 01:03:15.539
What are you wearing?

1408
01:03:15.599 --> 01:03:16.679
I was on my way to a party.

1409
01:03:16.739 --> 01:03:18.659
I was meant to be in Rio.

1410
01:03:18.840 --> 01:03:22.920
I think the shame, as we were kind of touching on then, was that

1411
01:03:22.920 --> 01:03:25.679
Tom basically finally said no, he wouldn't do it.

1412
01:03:25.739 --> 01:03:29.280
And there's all the good reasons in the world why he shouldn't

1413
01:03:29.280 --> 01:03:30.000
serve for him.

1414
01:03:30.119 --> 01:03:33.599
And I think after 40 years, 42 years.

1415
01:03:33.659 --> 01:03:35.699
I think I might have forgiven him for not being in it.

1416
01:03:35.760 --> 01:03:38.159
Although I think aspects have worked better because I think he

1417
01:03:38.159 --> 01:03:40.199
would have been the starring doctor in it, that would have been

1418
01:03:40.199 --> 01:03:43.679
that I think Peter would have actually highlighted more the fact

1419
01:03:43.679 --> 01:03:45.360
that the show is not what it had been.

1420
01:03:45.420 --> 01:03:50.219
This is the height of the era of Tom being difficult, nasty, and

1421
01:03:50.219 --> 01:03:54.480
basically being a god of the doctors, and that extends through to

1422
01:03:54.480 --> 01:03:55.380
the 30th anniversary.

1423
01:03:55.500 --> 01:03:57.659
Well, appearing at long lease only on his own panel, not with the

1424
01:03:57.659 --> 01:03:58.380
others, etc.

1425
01:03:58.440 --> 01:04:01.079
And also in the US conventions, not even in different panels, but

1426
01:04:01.079 --> 01:04:04.019
being in a different, practically in a different facility.

1427
01:04:04.079 --> 01:04:04.920
A different universe.

1428
01:04:05.039 --> 01:04:05.820
Yeah, to the other.

1429
01:04:05.880 --> 01:04:08.039
You know, he would not even appear, he would not, he refused to

1430
01:04:08.039 --> 01:04:10.079
appear on the same stage with them all at the same time, even if

1431
01:04:10.079 --> 01:04:11.099
they're all in the same building.

1432
01:04:11.159 --> 01:04:14.579
I think that's when my sympathy goes, ah, come on, dude. you know

1433
01:04:14.579 --> 01:04:16.739
I think just just just keep it real.

1434
01:04:16.800 --> 01:04:20.340
But yes, but thank goodness we got him in those clips and wasn't

1435
01:04:20.340 --> 01:04:21.900
it serendipity that Charter was cancelled?

1436
01:04:21.960 --> 01:04:24.360
You know, and I didn't know anything really about it.

1437
01:04:24.840 --> 01:04:27.900
No, thanks to the 20th anniversary radio time.

1438
01:04:27.960 --> 01:04:28.320
That's right.

1439
01:04:28.380 --> 01:04:31.500
So it just felt real and it felt organic within the story.

1440
01:04:31.559 --> 01:04:34.320
I was confused by the clip at the end that they didn't sort of go

1441
01:04:34.320 --> 01:04:35.039
back to the same point.

1442
01:04:35.099 --> 01:04:39.659
It was just him lying on the ashevelton, you know, a terrible car

1443
01:04:39.659 --> 01:04:39.900
park.

1444
01:04:39.960 --> 01:04:40.500
Yeah, yeah.

1445
01:04:40.559 --> 01:04:45.420
But you see, still, those 75 seconds from Shada are the highlights

1446
01:04:45.420 --> 01:04:49.019
of that story. like Charter is terrible in many many ways.

1447
01:04:49.079 --> 01:04:52.440
And that those 75 seconds belong to the 5 doctors, not to

1448
01:04:52.440 --> 01:04:52.920
shutter.

1449
01:04:53.039 --> 01:04:57.900
Yeah, we all pored over those 75 seconds for decades thinking, wow

1450
01:04:57.900 --> 01:05:00.960
Shada was just going to be this beautifully shot magical, wonderful

1451
01:05:00.960 --> 01:05:03.119
story, and there is much to recommend, much of it.

1452
01:05:03.179 --> 01:05:06.119
I'm not as down on it as you are, but, you know, having seen the

1453
01:05:06.119 --> 01:05:09.420
stuff that they did shoot and then what the stuff that they didn't

1454
01:05:09.420 --> 01:05:09.780
shoot.

1455
01:05:09.840 --> 01:05:12.539
And I can imagine it would have looked exactly like the Armageddon

1456
01:05:12.539 --> 01:05:15.960
factor, those later episodes, endless wandering around corridors

1457
01:05:15.960 --> 01:05:16.860
with not a lot happening.

1458
01:05:16.920 --> 01:05:20.280
I think Shada's reputation was only served by not being

1459
01:05:20.280 --> 01:05:20.880
completed.

1460
01:05:20.940 --> 01:05:23.940
Yeah, and it just goes to show, you know, what do you have to do

1461
01:05:23.940 --> 01:05:25.559
to kill Douglas Adams jokes?

1462
01:05:25.619 --> 01:05:27.300
Get Pennant Roberts to direct them?

1463
01:05:27.360 --> 01:05:28.380
Is the answer?

1464
01:05:28.440 --> 01:05:30.780
Roberts is a mass murder.

1465
01:05:31.800 --> 01:05:36.659
But to the ending of this show, like I was mortified. by them

1466
01:05:36.659 --> 01:05:38.940
turning into statues with the living dead.

1467
01:05:39.000 --> 01:05:41.280
That really freaked me out and looks wonderful.

1468
01:05:41.340 --> 01:05:45.119
But then the whole ending with them all sort of meeting each other

1469
01:05:45.119 --> 01:05:47.579
and being jovial and saying goodbye and then we're all going into

1470
01:05:47.579 --> 01:05:50.519
the Tartars and they will go separately and then Pete telling

1471
01:05:50.519 --> 01:05:54.059
Chancellor Favo that she's got full powers until he returns and

1472
01:05:54.059 --> 01:05:56.940
all of that ending stuff is just so warm and wonderful.

1473
01:05:57.000 --> 01:05:59.280
And it just warms my heart.

1474
01:05:59.340 --> 01:06:03.179
And it's Terrence, because Terrence creates that backstory for the

1475
01:06:03.179 --> 01:06:07.500
doctor in the war games that he goes on the run from his own

1476
01:06:07.500 --> 01:06:09.599
people in a rackety old TARDIS.

1477
01:06:09.659 --> 01:06:13.440
He creates that and he brings it back and it's just terrific and

1478
01:06:13.440 --> 01:06:17.940
it has one of my favourite Peter Davidson lines, which is when he

1479
01:06:17.940 --> 01:06:21.360
says to Tegan, sometimes Tegan, you take my breath away.

1480
01:06:21.420 --> 01:06:22.260
Exactly.

1481
01:06:22.260 --> 01:06:23.099
It's so funny.

1482
01:06:23.159 --> 01:06:24.119
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1483
01:06:24.179 --> 01:06:26.460
But that sequence, Todd, you're right with them all, you know, with

1484
01:06:26.460 --> 01:06:30.119
the faces coming alive behind the, the, the plastic and just as

1485
01:06:30.119 --> 01:06:35.219
the camera is panning across, you know, your place is prepared

1486
01:06:35.219 --> 01:06:36.960
Lord President Barusa.

1487
01:06:37.019 --> 01:06:40.079
That is an example of why I think Peter Moffa is a good director

1488
01:06:40.079 --> 01:06:42.960
because he shows you what you need to see at precisely the right

1489
01:06:42.960 --> 01:06:43.320
moment.

1490
01:06:43.380 --> 01:06:45.659
It's just as it passes over the blank slate.

1491
01:06:45.719 --> 01:06:49.019
It's beautifully done, actually, because is it Philip Latham?

1492
01:06:49.079 --> 01:06:49.500
Yes.

1493
01:06:49.559 --> 01:06:53.880
He is being shot in front of the place where he's finally going to

1494
01:06:53.880 --> 01:06:54.360
end up.

1495
01:06:54.420 --> 01:06:57.900
He turns around to look at it and disappears.

1496
01:06:57.960 --> 01:06:59.639
It's just very, very well.

1497
01:06:59.760 --> 01:07:00.960
Simple, but elegant.

1498
01:07:01.019 --> 01:07:03.480
And I think that's how I would summarise the entirety of the

1499
01:07:03.480 --> 01:07:03.780
story.

1500
01:07:03.840 --> 01:07:07.320
It is simple in that it's uncomplicated, but that's what makes it

1501
01:07:07.320 --> 01:07:08.219
so elegant.

1502
01:07:08.280 --> 01:07:11.340
Well, it had to be uncomplicated. because what I was trying to

1503
01:07:11.340 --> 01:07:11.519
do.

1504
01:07:11.579 --> 01:07:13.019
It didn't have to be elegant.

1505
01:07:13.139 --> 01:07:15.059
It's elegant because of Terence.

1506
01:07:15.119 --> 01:07:17.699
Well, I'm also giving piece of Moffatt praise there.

1507
01:07:17.760 --> 01:07:19.199
Yeah, let's not do that.

1508
01:07:19.260 --> 01:07:20.460
Come on let's not go overboard.

1509
01:07:44.519 --> 01:07:47.460
Well, that's all the time we have for this week. will be back next

1510
01:07:47.460 --> 01:07:51.179
week to discuss Terrence's first original Doctor Who novel

1511
01:07:51.179 --> 01:07:52.980
Timeworm Exodus.

1512
01:07:53.159 --> 01:07:57.059
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts

1513
01:07:57.059 --> 01:08:00.900
and you can keep up with us on our website, 500yearDiary.com, where

1514
01:08:00.900 --> 01:08:03.960
you'll find our social media links, as well as links to all of our

1515
01:08:03.960 --> 01:08:07.920
other podcasts, including our other Doctor Who podcasts, flight

1516
01:08:07.920 --> 01:08:11.219
through entirety, and the 2nd great and bountiful human empire.

1517
01:08:11.460 --> 01:08:15.300
Until next time, remember that however you're feeling about things

1518
01:08:15.300 --> 01:08:18.600
right now, it's still a good idea to accept that party

1519
01:08:18.600 --> 01:08:19.439
invitation.

1520
01:08:19.500 --> 01:08:21.960
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

1521
01:08:22.079 --> 01:08:22.979
Good night.

1522
01:08:23.039 --> 01:08:23.819
See you soon.

1523
01:08:23.880 --> 01:08:25.439
It is how it all started.

1524
01:08:25.500 --> 01:08:27.060
Good night doctor.

1525
01:08:27.600 --> 01:08:29.039
Doctors.

1526
01:08:39.840 --> 01:08:44.760
That was 500 year diary, starring Todd Bealby, Nathan Bottomley

1527
01:08:44.760 --> 01:08:47.340
Peter Griffiths, Brendan Jones, and Simon Moore.

1528
01:08:47.340 --> 01:08:50.100
The theme was composed by Cameron Lamb.

1529
01:08:50.159 --> 01:08:53.640
This episode, the quintessential crisis, was recorded on Doctor

1530
01:08:53.640 --> 01:08:59.640
Who's 62nd anniversary, the 23rd of November, 2025, and released

1531
01:08:59.640 --> 01:09:01.079
on the 21st of December.

1532
01:09:01.680 --> 01:09:05.760
Here at the flight through Entirety Cinematic Universe, we'd like

1533
01:09:05.760 --> 01:09:09.479
to thank everyone who listens to our podcasts, particularly those

1534
01:09:09.479 --> 01:09:12.779
of you who encourage us with likes, jokes, and compliments

1535
01:09:12.779 --> 01:09:13.500
online.

1536
01:09:13.560 --> 01:09:15.000
We love you all.

1537
01:09:15.060 --> 01:09:18.300
We'll be back for one more episode after Christmas, and we look

1538
01:09:18.300 --> 01:09:19.560
forward to seeing you all then.

1539
01:09:25.619 --> 01:09:29.340
I do have something which might be a tag because I was just

1540
01:09:29.340 --> 01:09:32.640
thinking about, you know, Terence and Bob Holmes.

1541
01:09:32.699 --> 01:09:36.119
So I was like, Terence starts on Doctor Who, finds there's a gap

1542
01:09:36.119 --> 01:09:40.439
in scripts, finds this old script called The Space Trap, and calls

1543
01:09:40.439 --> 01:09:41.460
him Bob Holmes.

1544
01:09:41.460 --> 01:09:46.500
And then that starts Bob Holmes' relationship with Doctor Who.

1545
01:09:46.560 --> 01:09:49.920
Terence then kills the show, as you've said before, with Malcolm

1546
01:09:49.920 --> 01:09:52.800
Hulk, and then says, oh, Bob, I'm taking over.

1547
01:09:52.859 --> 01:09:54.960
Can you come in and reinvent the show then a year later?

1548
01:09:55.020 --> 01:09:56.760
Bob, can you reinvent the show again, please?

1549
01:09:56.819 --> 01:10:01.020
Then, Bob, you can take a year off, but then come in and reinvent

1550
01:10:01.020 --> 01:10:02.880
the show because he can travel around again now.

1551
01:10:02.939 --> 01:10:06.239
Oh, can you invent us a new companion, please?

1552
01:10:06.359 --> 01:10:07.859
And by the way, you're in the Middle Ages.

1553
01:10:07.920 --> 01:10:08.939
I know you hate it, Bob.

1554
01:10:09.000 --> 01:10:11.039
Bob, now you've got my job.

1555
01:10:11.100 --> 01:10:12.420
Can you give me a job, please?

1556
01:10:13.020 --> 01:10:15.600
Bob, don't rewrite me that much.

1557
01:10:15.659 --> 01:10:16.500
Thank you very much.

1558
01:10:16.619 --> 01:10:20.399
And then Bob says to Terence. come in and write lighthouses.

1559
01:10:20.460 --> 01:10:21.840
Well, I don't know anything about the lighthouses.

1560
01:10:21.899 --> 01:10:23.880
Well, do your damn job and research it, Terence.

1561
01:10:23.939 --> 01:10:28.140
Then Crispidby comes along and has no scripts and looks in a

1562
01:10:28.140 --> 01:10:30.960
drawer and finds this old script called the vampire mutations and

1563
01:10:30.960 --> 01:10:32.279
calls in Terence Dix.

1564
01:10:32.340 --> 01:10:36.720
And then finally, for the 5 doctors, You've got Bob saying, this

1565
01:10:36.720 --> 01:10:37.979
is absolutely ridiculous.

1566
01:10:38.039 --> 01:10:40.140
And Terence says, yes, Bob, you're quite right.

1567
01:10:40.199 --> 01:10:42.359
Thankfully, I'm absolutely ridiculous.

1568
01:10:42.420 --> 01:10:44.340
So I'm going to do this.

1569
01:10:44.399 --> 01:10:48.119
And they actually do weave around each other through their whole

1570
01:10:48.119 --> 01:10:50.939
time on Doctor Who together.

1571
01:10:51.000 --> 01:10:54.300
Because even though this is Terence's last TV script for Doctor

1572
01:10:54.300 --> 01:10:54.720
Who.

1573
01:10:54.840 --> 01:10:59.159
You know, Bob will write one next year and the year after and the

1574
01:10:59.159 --> 01:10:59.819
year after that.

1575
01:10:59.880 --> 01:11:04.319
And in a way, Terrence doing this kind of means Bob continues to

1576
01:11:04.319 --> 01:11:07.319
come back because I can imagine if Bob had been forced to write

1577
01:11:07.319 --> 01:11:14.100
the 6 doctors on the planet Maladoom with Dr. Robot Will and Robot

1578
01:11:14.100 --> 01:11:14.520
Susan.

1579
01:11:14.579 --> 01:11:15.659
Good then we got her.

1580
01:11:15.720 --> 01:11:16.199
Yeah.

1581
01:11:16.619 --> 01:11:19.680
But, you know, he...

1582
01:11:19.680 --> 01:11:21.060
We always had robots.

1583
01:11:21.479 --> 01:11:23.640
Played by Jane Asher.

1584
01:11:23.699 --> 01:11:27.899
But, you know, I can easily imagine Bob saying, never darken my

1585
01:11:27.899 --> 01:11:30.720
door again, John Nathan Turner and Eric Saywood.

1586
01:11:30.779 --> 01:11:36.239
Instead, Eric Saywood takes the 5 doctors and, you know, says, this

1587
01:11:36.239 --> 01:11:37.800
isn't Bob's thing.

1588
01:11:37.859 --> 01:11:42.060
It's Terence's thing, but then says, Bob, we do really respect you

1589
01:11:42.060 --> 01:11:43.619
as a writer, bring us your idea.

1590
01:11:43.680 --> 01:11:45.539
And it's the caves of Andrazone.

1591
01:11:45.600 --> 01:11:49.260
I mean, again, another universe, not too far from ours, where Bob

1592
01:11:49.260 --> 01:11:53.039
Holmes writes the caves around Dasani, and Terrence Dix writes the

1593
01:11:53.039 --> 01:11:56.880
slot occupied by the dilemma, and the entire sweep of the series

1594
01:11:56.880 --> 01:11:57.720
looks very different.

1595
01:11:57.779 --> 01:12:03.359
Does, like, John Nathan Turner doesn't want, like, old Toots.

1596
01:12:03.359 --> 01:12:04.380
Yeah, yeah.

1597
01:12:04.439 --> 01:12:05.520
And one's old toots.

1598
01:12:05.579 --> 01:12:06.659
Bob Holmes specifically.

1599
01:12:06.720 --> 01:12:08.520
I don't want that old tour.

1600
01:12:08.579 --> 01:12:11.579
He was threatened by people who he felt had a great humanology

1601
01:12:11.579 --> 01:12:13.500
Doctor Who than he did, which is bizarre because he'd been working

1602
01:12:13.500 --> 01:12:14.100
on the show.

1603
01:12:14.159 --> 01:12:14.819
Yeah, he was there.

1604
01:12:16.739 --> 01:12:17.699
Junior Robert, nevertheless.

1605
01:12:17.819 --> 01:12:20.220
Same reason Douglas Campfield doesn't direct this because

1606
01:12:20.220 --> 01:12:24.300
apparently Douglas actually approached JNT in 1980 saying, oh, I've

1607
01:12:24.300 --> 01:12:24.779
been away for a while.

1608
01:12:24.840 --> 01:12:27.539
I wouldn't mind doing one again and JNT basically said to him, no

1609
01:12:27.539 --> 01:12:28.199
I only want new people.

1610
01:12:28.260 --> 01:12:30.720
And then, so then...

1611
01:12:30.840 --> 01:12:33.300
Well, then when JNT...

1612
01:12:33.899 --> 01:12:35.880
Well...

1613
01:12:36.840 --> 01:12:40.500
Well, how that worked out was Warris Hussein was kind of

1614
01:12:40.500 --> 01:12:42.600
interested, but then, kind of not.

1615
01:12:42.659 --> 01:12:46.260
So JNT approached Douglas Canfield, who basically said, um, 2

1616
01:12:46.260 --> 01:12:50.100
years ago, you told me you weren't interested, I have other things

1617
01:12:50.100 --> 01:12:50.399
to do.

1618
01:12:50.460 --> 01:12:51.840
I don't need Doctor Who.

1619
01:12:51.899 --> 01:12:52.920
Yeah.

1620
01:12:52.979 --> 01:12:55.739
I mean, all of that's quite unfortunate, but maybe like having

1621
01:12:55.739 --> 01:13:00.060
Terrence like breaks the seal and lets them, let's say we'd

1622
01:13:00.060 --> 01:13:01.079
pitch.

1623
01:13:01.140 --> 01:13:01.920
I suspect so.

1624
01:13:02.460 --> 01:13:06.000
And also JNT, even he couldn't be unaware that if there was an

1625
01:13:06.000 --> 01:13:08.220
elder statesman of the program, It was Terence.

1626
01:13:08.279 --> 01:13:09.479
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1627
01:13:09.600 --> 01:13:13.079
But also, you know, that Bob Holmes is, you know, perhaps the best

1628
01:13:13.079 --> 01:13:17.039
writer in the classic series and why would you, you know, Eric

1629
01:13:17.039 --> 01:13:20.880
likes him and wants to bring him back and he's willing, you know

1630
01:13:20.880 --> 01:13:22.439
and it did work out quite well, I think.

1631
01:13:22.500 --> 01:13:25.079
In some ways, it's miraculous that Bob Holmes not working.

1632
01:13:25.140 --> 01:13:25.979
They turn to Terrence.

1633
01:13:26.039 --> 01:13:28.380
They could have turned to, I don't know Johnny Byrne.

1634
01:13:28.439 --> 01:13:30.000
Yeah, yeah, yeah Exactly.

1635
01:13:30.239 --> 01:13:30.779
Actually, yeah.

1636
01:13:30.840 --> 01:13:32.520
Or Baker, Dave Martin.

1637
01:13:34.140 --> 01:13:36.539
Were they not speaking at this?

1638
01:13:36.600 --> 01:13:37.739
No, they aren't.

1639
01:13:37.800 --> 01:13:39.899
Also actually, but you say that, Peter.

1640
01:13:39.960 --> 01:13:43.020
Is that also partly, do they turned Terence partly because and

1641
01:13:43.020 --> 01:13:46.079
maybe the ice is breaking, because isn't this when kind of

1642
01:13:46.079 --> 01:13:48.539
conventions around the 20th anniversary is when conventions starts

1643
01:13:48.539 --> 01:13:50.039
to become a thing, more of a thing?

1644
01:13:50.100 --> 01:13:51.659
And so a large scale thing.

1645
01:13:51.779 --> 01:13:54.600
And so these people... would have been crossing over with Terrence

1646
01:13:54.600 --> 01:13:54.960
all the time.

1647
01:13:55.020 --> 01:13:57.000
Exactly, in a way that he might not have before.

1648
01:13:57.060 --> 01:13:57.840
Yeah.

1649
01:13:57.840 --> 01:14:01.739
Well, there's the famous story of Terrence getting the pitch and

1650
01:14:01.739 --> 01:14:05.279
sort of Eric was getting very concerned about Bob Scripps and

1651
01:14:05.279 --> 01:14:08.819
found out Terrence was at a convention and found out the hotel got

1652
01:14:08.819 --> 01:14:09.420
put through.

1653
01:14:09.479 --> 01:14:12.899
It's yes, receptionist, it's very urgent. forgetting the time

1654
01:14:12.899 --> 01:14:13.439
difference.

1655
01:14:13.500 --> 01:14:18.720
So waking Terence up at 4 AM to say, hey, can we book you as a

1656
01:14:18.720 --> 01:14:19.859
backup for Bob Holmes?

1657
01:14:19.979 --> 01:14:22.739
To which Terence said, that's no way to treat a writer like Bob

1658
01:14:22.739 --> 01:14:23.220
Holmes.

1659
01:14:23.279 --> 01:14:25.859
And come to think of it, it's no way to treat a writer like me

1660
01:14:25.859 --> 01:14:26.220
either.

1661
01:14:26.279 --> 01:14:28.380
And then it is clumsy.

1662
01:14:28.439 --> 01:14:28.619
Yeah.

1663
01:14:28.680 --> 01:14:33.060
But then agreed in principle and at his panel in the morning got

1664
01:14:33.060 --> 01:14:36.420
up and said, I'm writing the 20th anniversary special.

1665
01:14:36.479 --> 01:14:37.800
No, that part.

1666
01:14:37.859 --> 01:14:41.640
He must have known that Bob was never going to tolerate me.

1667
01:14:41.880 --> 01:14:44.460
It's so not him at all.

1668
01:14:44.699 --> 01:14:49.500
Holmes isn't going to write a big light entertainment celebration

1669
01:14:49.500 --> 01:14:51.899
spectacular of Doctor Who that goes for 90 minutes.

1670
01:14:51.960 --> 01:14:53.159
They would just never have happened.

1671
01:14:53.220 --> 01:14:59.819
But I love your summary, um, and evolve into interweaving through

1672
01:14:59.819 --> 01:15:02.279
the history of Doctor Who and creating the show that we know and

1673
01:15:02.279 --> 01:15:02.579
love.

1674
01:15:02.640 --> 01:15:05.819
I just think we have so much to thank Terrence Dix for and he's

1675
01:15:05.819 --> 01:15:06.119
right there.

1676
01:15:06.119 --> 01:15:11.579
Up with verity and the original crew of sustaining this show and

1677
01:15:11.579 --> 01:15:13.979
building it and making it the show that we love.

1678
01:15:14.039 --> 01:15:18.960
I don't think we made the point last week, week before, um, in

1679
01:15:18.960 --> 01:15:26.520
that essentially the, um, the lighthouse pitch was just uh, homes

1680
01:15:26.520 --> 01:15:27.659
having his revenge.

1681
01:15:27.720 --> 01:15:29.520
Yeah, Time Warrior, isn't it?

1682
01:15:29.579 --> 01:15:30.119
Yeah.

1683
01:15:30.180 --> 01:15:31.199
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1684
01:15:31.260 --> 01:15:31.859
Yeah.

1685
01:15:31.920 --> 01:15:35.460
I do think they did miss a trick, though, with those wonderful

1686
01:15:35.460 --> 01:15:40.560
closing lines of with that wonderful closing line of, after all

1687
01:15:40.560 --> 01:15:41.760
that's how it all started.

1688
01:15:42.420 --> 01:15:47.100
I think they could have used that properly in the seasons that

1689
01:15:47.100 --> 01:15:49.439
were to come because that's kind of forgotten.

1690
01:15:49.500 --> 01:15:55.020
It's vaguely remembered in child of a time lord, but not really.

1691
01:15:55.079 --> 01:15:58.380
I think they could have made something more and kind of reset the

1692
01:15:58.380 --> 01:16:00.060
show in a way that they didn't.

1693
01:16:00.180 --> 01:16:03.899
See, also day of the doctor, where the doctor doesn't go hunting

1694
01:16:03.899 --> 01:16:04.739
for galafrey.

1695
01:16:04.800 --> 01:16:05.399
Yeah, yeah.

1696
01:16:05.460 --> 01:16:06.359
Just stumbles across it.

1697
01:16:06.420 --> 01:16:08.340
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1698
01:16:08.399 --> 01:16:09.659
I think we wind it up.

1699
01:16:09.720 --> 01:16:10.739
I think we do, yeah, yeah.

1700
01:16:10.979 --> 01:16:11.640
I think we're done.