The Quintessential Crisis

Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to 500 year diary. The only Doctor Who podcast that's very much still the podcast we once were. Thank goodness. I'm Bill. I'm Pat. I'm John. I'm a waxwork they got in from Madame Dussauds. And I'm Peter. It's the 23rd of November, 1983. If you're in the US, or it's the 25th of November, if you're one of the 7700000 people in the UK watching this year's children in need special, or it's the 13th of December in Australia, or the 22nd of January 1984, if you missed it in Sydney, because of that electrical storm, it's very complicated. It's been 20 years since Ian and Barbara found that police box in a junkyard that can move anywhere in time and space, and to celebrate that fact, Tonight, we're watching a bunch of elderly actors walking slowly towards a tower where they will trick their enemy into a trap and then all go back home again. Is it Terrence's crowning achievement? Let's find out as we discuss the 5 doctors. Should we talk about how we first watch this? So, I was staying at a friend's place in the entrance, which is just north of Sydney. And so although there was a storm, and although I did have to rush out in the middle of the episode to help his grandmother take the clothes off the line, I did actually get to watch the whole thing uninterrupted. So you went outside, got the clothes in the middle. Then rush back in. And missed nothing, basically. Was the entrance above between or below? Above. above exactly. This would have been at the end of year 6 going into year seven. For us, yes. Yes, for us. And I remember. So we don't know each other yet? No, we don't. We met each other in February 84. That's right. So just before we met, Simon. I remember it being a dark and stormy night, you know, eagerly anticipating to push, play record on our, on our beta recording machine, and I was waiting for the, you know, the intro just to come in. And then this black and white thing appeared. I thought, what the hell is this? And then suddenly I realised, so I cut off part of William Hartnell's speech because I was just so sort of, 0 my god, it's all happening. So I just remember that. So again, you know, 1983 is kind of peak VCR arrival for a lot of people, I think, who were neither early adopters nor late adopters. And we had not long got ours. And I was had a videotape that had been given to me for this purpose. I was about to record for Keeps, my 1st ever Doctor Who story. There was a repeat run happening at the same time. We were in the middle of season 14. But were you recording on VHS or Beta? VHS. BC, we never had BC. Yeah, God. And then, so I think it was scheduled for 7.30 because I think that's before the 7.30 report it started. So it was after the ABC news at 7 o'clock, but you still had a regular Doctor Who episode at... It was part 2 of Robots of Death. Right, there you go. At 6.30 and I think that I saw all of robots of death, and then during the electrical storm, the power went out. And I didn't cry. It's that it was too serious for tears. I was absolutely shattered and I sat there. I sat there in front of the dark television in a dark room with this electrical storm going outside, waiting, 7.30, right. It started, and I'm missing it. 8 o'clock, still blackout, at about 830, about half an hour before the end, all the power comes on, and I pick it up from the chessboard sequence, so the cyber leader is just being shot by the master, and so I get the whole easiest pie thing, and everything from there was my 1st experience of the 5 doctors. And it's fascinating to remember when I was watching it for this again, last night. I was thinking about, wow, watching back that final 3rd as the only example of the story. And for some reason, I didn't hit play record. I just thought, oh, because I can't have the whole thing. Can't have it. And it'll be on again. And just thinking, how did it all, how did this all fit together? They're all walking through these corridors in this tower and Peter Davidson is on gala fray and so on. So it was quite extraordinary. Well, of course, I'm of the same vintage as Simon and Todd. We didn't know each other at this point, but I'd been primed for the 5 doctors because 1983 for fans in the UK, but also I think for fans of our vintage was a banner year. There was fantastic run of repeats that year. We got some pertweese that I had never seen, which was like manna from heaven. The 525 line ones like that. That's right. awesome thing. That's right. So we usually got the 9 per weeks, the exister on film or on originated on 16 mil film or on 625 line. But this year we got 6 new stories that I hadn't seen before, which were frontier in space in a selection from season 8 and season nine. So I was already at peak fan. Then we went on a trip to the Macquarie Centre, which is a shopping centre. Which is brand spanking. It was you. That's right. We're going to be able to visit my cousins and we went there because it was a day out. And walking past a newsagent, staring out at me was the Radio Times 20th anniversary special. Oh, wow. And of course, my fan heart leapt. I'd already had my pocket money for that week, but my parents very kindly decided to advance me. The money from the next week to buy this, and I pored over that magazine, day in and day out, looking at the synopses of old stories, reading... And stories yet to go. Absolutely. And so I knew that the 5 doctors was coming. I knew that there was going to be something like I just didn't know when. And then when I saw it in the TV guide, I was ready and even though we got the storm, it didn't break the transmission for us. Oh, okay. See, that's really interesting because like, I can't remember when I got that radio times. For me, it has to have been after the 5 doctors. I think it was, um, I may have seen it in the shops, but then I think I got it for Christmas. So it's only 11th of December, so it's only even 2 weeks afterwards. Because I remember reading through it in all the synopses at the back and they mean utterly shocked by the fact that there was going to be a new doctor and actually absolutely overjoyed because I was in my total anti peak phase. But that's all I remember about that, and I don't remember my sequence of when I got that. So, and Brendan. So I was 2 months old. As old as that. Oh, so yes, I was born October 83. Old enough to form a fan opinion. However, my dad did, it seems recorded the original broadcast. It's hard to know when dad recorded stuff just because we already had a bunch of tapes when I got into it in about 1988. They were plentiful by the time. They were plentiful. And I do recall that our copy of the 5 doctors had during the starburst of the opening credits, a sort of neon ABC logo. I don't know if that's on the original or whatever, because I remember when I got the very 1st DVD in 1999, I was a bit surprised not to see it on there because by that time I knew that there was money from the ABC for the 5 doctors and what have you. So, yeah, I guess that was just knowing what I now know about television just something that they inserted in the playout centre you know what I mean? Or maybe it was the ident fading into. But then again, the titles aren't up 1st and the heart and all is definitely in there on the VHS copy. I have recently got the equipment to start digitising my VHSs, so I will find out. Um, as for what I thought at the time. Well, it was kind of one of my only 2 ways to watch the 1st 2 doctors because we didn't have any heart and all. And I didn't like watching black and white stuff until about 1990 and that included the pertly black and whites. You know, I just watched Colour and just one day as a kid, I stuck on the mind dropper when I was, like, had a cold or something. And by the time I sat down on the sofa, I'm like, oh, well, I'm not getting up to change it. I'll just watch it and, you know, got into watching black and white that way. It's hard to remember my 1st thoughts of it, but it was one that I regularly rewatched because there were lots of doctors in it and lots of excitement. I mean, the regular rewatch is the thing because just to extend on my story, if I may. So I'm watching it for the 1st time in its entirety in the January afternoon repeat, and it was only because dad noticed it in the guide, the previous day. So I didn't have so the extraordinary thing is I didn't even have weeks or even days of anticipation for it. Because Doctor Hoop was not showing regularly at that time. didn't show us. Oh no, it was like Sunday afternoon. It was completely random... Right, but it wasn't even on at that time, like it was taking its break. Yes, it was taking us break because it was January. It was like the school hold days. And so it was just this complete fluke that I got in. And we were at our holiday home on the Hawkesbury River where the reception was very bad. And so I, for years and years, was watching this somewhat snowy version of the 5 doctors and just to pick up what you said earlier before, Todd. Again, I was thrown by the Hartnell clip at the beginning. And so, again, in those old VHS recorders that take a moment or 2 to actually start recording. So for me, my sole bit of that clip was mind. But which was watched. Many, many, many times. I think I could, and I think probably we all could, now recite the story through. I watched it more than anything else. I mean, it was for a while it was the only story I had on tape then it was one of a few stories I had on tape, but nevertheless it was something you would constantly go back to and watch again and again and again. And I think it is the ultimate in Doctor Who comfort food for all of the right reasons. It's exactly what Brendan was saying that it's like a greatest hits album. Like, it's like listening to Aber Gold is watching 5 Doctors. You're getting all the best bits of the show and all the bits of the show together. Of course you go back to it constantly. I recently recorded an episode of the Murran Chess Club on the Five Doctors, and for it, I watched the 40th anniversary version which was released as part of the Blu-ray box set, and it's the same as the original card. It's not like the one that Brendan mentioned the 1999 one. It's just the original broadcast version with new special effects and obviously like a 5.one surround sound. A bit of extra music, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But the thing was that I could recognise instantly if any of the music... Yeah, yeah, yeah. because I know it absolutely off. Yeah. Yeah. The other thing that I think the 40th anniversary version does very well is just a couple of shots that are held too long in the original. He tightens them up just a breath. Not sort of cutting people off the 2nd they stop talking, but just where it's clear that the actor is waiting to hear cut. And they're not hearing it because it's Peter Moffatt. It's interesting. I noticed that as well. I watched it also that in the transmitted version for this podcast and I'm generally not a fan of these souped up versions and I think it's because I was scarred by that horrific version of the 5 doctors where they were using different takes. That's a 1983 classic they're hacking about with. Yeah exactly. For example. And I started noticing, actually, they're cutting that short. And so but it's amazing, even the beats after lines of dialogue are so familiar to us that we're noticing that they're just, oh they've tightened that, or they've tightened that. I do have to praise the 40th anniversary edition, actually, because I thought they went through it with quite a light touch. And I think as things have progressed, the CGI additions that they've made, feel more authentic to some of the earlier ones where it's a bit over the top and it just doesn't gel with the other images that you're seeing. Because it's doing the very important thing of only changing the trappings, what they do in the 1999 VHS DVD version is that they actually change shots and change rhythm and change the storytelling. And I'm sorry to say they're not the storytellers that Peter Moth had is. No, and also there's a reason why those takes were chosen in the 1st place. And one can argue in hindsight, or maybe this take may have been better, but, you know, I think that was a level of interference that went too far. Absolutely, but also it reflects fan considerations and fan considerations are often not correct because rather than starting with the glimpse of that new console, which just absolutely major fan heart leap in 1983, especially coming off the pre-credit sequence, which was our only view of Bill Hartnell for the rest of that decade until VHS and DVD started coming out of his era. That is the correct way to start the anniversary story, not a supposedly atmospheric, but actually entirely undramatic series of shots of empty studio sets. Oh yes, that was terrible. Yeah, yeah. So much like robot, I read the novelisation. Which, of course, was accidentally released 2 weeks before broadcast. Well, you read it when you were a month and a half ago. right. So Terence is basing it off his scripts not having seen the finished version. So it actually includes one of the bits, so there's much derided about the special edition, which is when the 3rd doctor is throwing the lasso over to the Dark Tower. Sarah's like, oh, doctor, there's a side man coming. And he says, well, do something about it. And she throws a rock at it. And you just stay on this laden and she goes, missed. And the thing is, it's really funny because it's Liz and it's quite funny in the book as well, but watching it again without the special edition being new. It is kind of NAF. And I think the reason it doesn't work is we don't see a rock rolling past a cyberman. And even like, even like a... Is there any chance that would have looked good? Maybe? Not necessarily. Like, you know, it would have been the double taking pigeon from Moonraker. But Peter Moffat on the commentary for the 2 doctors actually takes that opportunity because he says a shot in the 2 doctors. Oh, no, I held that too long. And Colin says something, oh, well, they can fix that for DVD now. And he says, well, maybe if they asked, there's another one of mine where they didn't even ask and they're using shots that I cut out for a reason. Yes, he also... He also bitched about that to me. I interviewed him, and I have to say, I felt great sympathy. He's a craftsman and whatever fan opinion, I think that's changed now, but the received wisdom used to be that as a director, he wasn't that great. He's not amongst the best, but he's certainly a craftsman of many years experience. And for them to go in hacking around like that. I just felt was just an extraordinary level of disrespect. He's not a dynamic director. But for me, he's a classic director. And as every all the actors in all of the making ofs always say he was an actor's director. And I think putting aside twin dilemma for the moment, the performances he gets out of his cast and the people he chooses to be in his cast are superb. Thinking that we could have had Warris Sustain, or Dougie Canfield to direct this, does give you a little bit of wistfulness, but actually, I understand JNT's reasoning with getting Peter Moffatt in to direct this. This isn't, in a sense, a normal Doctor Who episode in any sense. I mean, it's a children in need special, and this is not characteristic of what Terrence does generally, we've been talking about how propulsive his plots are and how they're full of incident and new things happen. This is incredibly straightforward. It is just designed to allow whoever is available to do their thing, which is a constantly shifting set of services. Exactly. And he is the right person to do that because he's an actor's director. Well, going back to Terrence, like, he had to come in, like Bob Holmes tried and couldn't make something worse. right? Wasn't it the 6 doctors with a fake 1st doctor or something like that? And all of that stuff that from that documentary. I mean, I know Bob Holmes is one of the greatest Doctor Who writers we've ever had. But I keep looking at that going, God, that would have been awful. And then, you know, Terrence comes in and has to then, wasn't the original idea that Hartner was just going to be in the opening credits, and it was going to be Pat with Jamie, the 3rd doctor with Joe, the 4th doctor with Sarah, and they go up, he'd go back to Gallifre, and then the 5th doctor. And then, of course, as you said, Tom's not doing it. Fraser Heinz not available and they start shifting all the components about like Katie's in Australia. So you end up with this mishmash of people that they're not the 1st people that you come to mind, like the 2nd doctor in the brigadier. Yes, they were together, but it's not... But it's not, and it's a 3rd doctor and Sarah, you know? And then suddenly, well, I mean, Susan with Richard Herndor, and so it's not quite, but it works in a way, but it just brings up these anomalies. Like, you know, suddenly Sarah's meeting the master for the 1st time when it could have been Joe and then Pertuy's with the cybermen, like, you know, when it really should be Pat and then wouldn't have been great if the 1st doctor had had illusions of like Ian and Barber or something like that. And then you've got like the whole Jamie and Zoe thing, which is the 2nd doctor shouldn't remember that their memories are erased. And so there's all these funny little things that technically if you really thought about it, you kind of think, well, you know, you know, this is not really properly working, but it's absolutely glorious. Well, taking out that point. This story, of course, had the longest development period of any Doctor Who story. So they were thinking about this 18 months before they were shooting us. And so to go to your point, Todd, about the different companions it was in development for so long that originally they thought they were going to bring out Tom and Lala because they were still married at that point. I like the fact that Terence, he always said, I think we've said this before, he's good in a quasis. And this was absolutely the quintessential crisis of Doctor Who because what you needed was someone who could just effortlessly adapt to whatever was needed. And that's Terence. That's not just a working professional at that time. Well, exactly. As a script editor on the Sunday classics, with all of that history of Dr. Andre is spell of sort of editing scripts to make them work, of writing the novelisation, so understanding how structure works, he was, in many ways, maybe the only person who could have made the story work. And the fact that you are able to slot in different companions and different doctors. You know, it's wonderful for a fan to be able to see another 3rd doctor and Sarah story as opposed to what you expect you might get which is the 3rd doctor in Joe. It's wonderful to see Pat Troughton and the Brigadier, who really only had those 2 stories together, and then the 3 doctors where they're a bit off, have another adventure together. That's in some ways greater than having the doctor going through the death zone with Victoria and Jamie. And you get the wonderful thing, which I've often said, which I was disappointed. you didn't get more of in the 50th anniversary special, which is when you swap companions and doctors. So having Tegan with the 1st doctor works really well, for instance. And it's a shame that there wasn't more kind of like a bit more of a randomisation, but it needed a different plot. Look, Nathan, as you said, it's a relatively simple concept, but I think it needs to be because it is a series of vignettes basically. It's a series of incidents. But the fact that it can create the illusion of it being a coherent story that does work and builds to a climax and a resolution is quite remarkable. And I take on board what you're saying, Todd, but there's actually surprisingly little that doesn't make sense or surprisingly little that doesn't work. I'm not criticising it for that. I'm just pointing out these things. Yes, I absolutely adore it. But it's so funny because it's like, you know, when the master turns up at the end and like the brigadier knocks him out in a second, it's sort of like I would have loved him, the master said oh, brigadier or something, and then you've got the 3rd doctor Nabriti are just having a couple of lines together. I mean, yes, you want more. You want more? That's its floor. basically. And that was the floor that I felt in 1983 or perhaps more accurately January 1984, was that there wasn't more of it. As Doctor Who fans, I mean, you know, you should have been 9 hours and it wouldn't still wouldn't have been long enough. And that, in a way, is part of the virtue of the writing, because it was John Nathan Turner who said to Terrence Dix, I'm worried about having 5 leading men doing scenes together, all of whom have owned the show at some point, keep them apart until the end. Now, the thing is, it turned out at the read-through that that wasn't a problem, and they all got along very well, and John Pertwe said in later years that he was actually very sensitive to Peter Davidson. Having had the experience of the 3 doctors, of Pat Troughton coming in and charming everyone and him being incredibly threatened by that. And, you know, this is John Bertley saying, I knew what that felt like, and I didn't want to be that person. JT was probably remembering hearing that story from John. And so had that in mind. And dare I suggest it's probably dates from a moment when Tom was going to be in it? absolutely. And I think that would have been a very different situation. Absolutely. And that leads into, you know, examples of how masterful Terrence is as a writer, because for ages, the Pat Phantom scene was going to be Victoria and Zoe and the tell was Victoria calling him brigadier when she only knew him as the colonel. And that then obviates the whole season 6 B thing. Debbie Watling then gets 3 specials with Dave Allen, which I think may have fallen through. I think she said that at the convention once. She's like, look, you know, I had to turn down one day's work for 2 months work and then I got paid for that, but it didn't happen and I would have rather have done this. But, you know, then they have to call Fraser down at a week's notice because he couldn't be in it fully because of Emmerdale, but yes, they'll release him for 2 days kind of thing. And so Terence has to come in and go, right, what's something that makes sense? This makes sense. And then afterwards it was like, oh, God, I've created a whole separate continuity. Bob, can you come in and write something about this? Is it that? Because I just assumed that what had happened was he decided that there could be a very long explanation about, oh, no, they did go back and they did remember some of the doctor, but neither of them would have known the brigadier or something like that. But then you just sort of think, no, we're not doing that. We're just getting this scene done. Oh, it's interesting that you talk about, you know, the fact that how does a doctor know that they were coming back there in time. That means it's the series 6B thing, blah, blah, blah. But the way my fan, 11, 12 year old head cannon was working, and it's that different from today. I take that as a compliment. which is not that much different from today. And I've carried this with me ever since, and because it works in both the 3 doctors and the 5 doctors, is that it's almost like a bi-generation thing, in that it's almost like it's the spirits, the ghosts of the doctors. Hartnall is, well, the 1st doctor, sorry, is wandering around a garden. The 2nd doctor was either running from a burning building or, um you know, in this case, it's... Yes exactly. The nominally non-clip from the macro terror. And even John Pertwee's one. It's almost like there's a kind of an echo of the doctor that still exists and they remember everything about their era, apart from the moment. So John doesn't know that he turns into Tom Beck. He knows he's regenerating, but he doesn't know what he regenerates into. Do you know what I mean? Well, in a sense, he sort of does because he picks up from Sarah's hand gesture that she means teeth and curls. Curls. Yeah, he does kind of... he feels them coming on. And even and even the fact that the doctors refer to Davis. I mean, and this is a conceit because this is the 20th anniversary special, blah, blah, blah. But the doctors recognise Peter Davidson as the current model. Not like, oh, well, what are you going to turn into? they think that, well, no, no one really wants to know what he's going to do. I'm not going to comment. But yeah, but I actually think that and I think the sense I'm getting in this room and I think since I've gotten from talking to other people over the decades is that that's actually kind of what a lot of other people feel as well. Two doctors does it differently. 2 doctors you kind of do imagine that they've been plucked out of wherever it is. And you get the line about the drug that the 2nd doctor is been given so that he doesn't remember this adventure the next time it comes around. In the 2 doctors. Yeah. I think that that's absolutely right. And it works very well with an older 2nd doctor in the brigadier because they're ageing. They're both sort of, you know, like when you think about it, Pat as the doctor is 20 years younger than the brigadier is now, but instead the 2 of them are kind of like a weird old married couple. Age has not... Just keep bitching all the whole time. No, but light bitching because I watched an episode of the Three Doctors the other day just to sort of compare and it's dreadful the way they do, the brigadier and 2nd doctor. Oh, yeah, in comparison to this, which is a kind of a lovely banter. And, you know, the brigadier. Oh, you know, when he hands him the jelly babies. But you know, I expect that's the difference between Terence having a remembered idea of what the 2nd doctor was like. And then in the meantime, doing all those novelisations. They've actually got a proper handle on what the 2nd doctor is like. Exactly. And we forget that Terrence would often watch the tapes slash films of episodes. And I believe, Peter, that you said that Terrence watched the Abominable Snowman. So Terrence was probably the last person on this planet to have seen the Aboveable Snowman in its entirety. And there's another reason why he's so perfect for this. Not just the 5 or 6 years he script edited, but because he has a fan's understanding of how all these actors relate, how the characters relate, all the writing for all the doctors is spot on. And I don't think it's because the actors were having to tweak it during rehearsals. No, and this is the brilliance of Terence. This is what we've basically been talking about. The fact that he does have a fan's point of view on the series because he's so steeped in it. He's immersed in it, but he's also got a rightly creative view of the series where he knows what to Jettison and what to include. So the 5 doctors is probably the most potent example of fan service in the original series, I would say, but it's also the best done, because you get something like Arc of Infinity, where the entire thing hinges on the fact that the audience should know who Omega is, and unless they've been watching for 10 years or happened to catch a repeat on BBC 2 in August. That's right They sit there cold like they've been left out, like the series and other people know things that they don't. I think there are other flaws with arc of infinity. There are many. But that's a key one in its conception. Whereas with this, Terence knows that when Sarah says to the 3rd doctor, so the next one, teeth and curls, the audience immediately go, oh, yeah, the next one, Tom Baker with the curly hair, and that's the level of fan service that he includes. Because in a way that's not fan service. That's an awareness that Doctor Who belongs to a big audience of 1000000s of people. And that what this is, is that this is a celebration of a TV show. Stephen Moffat says that Doctor Who takes place under your bed, but he's wrong. Doctor Who takes place in a corner of the living room. So it's always been this TV thing. And so it absolutely operates as a kind of like a light entertainment piece, essentially. This is getting everyone in for This is Your Life only for Doctor Who, but we're acting it all out. That's the point. Terrence doesn't treat fan service as fan service. He treats it as long-term viewer service. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's just perfectly pitched. And anything that's going to make people at home wonder what the hell is going on really had to be jettison. So it is incredibly straightforward, and that's not a criticism at all. And there's no way Bob Holmes could have done that. He would have wanted to write a proper Doctor Who story with all those elements in it. And guess what? That just isn't possible. It's interesting because it is possible when we come to the 2 doctors because for 2 reasons. A, you're only talking about 2 doctors who the sense is they coincidentally meets, their paths happen to cross, and it being longer. I think both those things together, I think, make it work and that's one of the reasons why I think it's the most successful multidoctor story, although this comes as a close second. I think the other thing with Bob Holmes pictures is they all focus attention on the fact that Richard Herndle is not William Hartnall. They all go, we have to explain this because they're not going to accept it. Whereas Terence kind of says, the audience knows that William Hartnell is dead. Let's not hide it. We're getting someone who is giving a performance of that character. other than of that actor rather than of that actor. And it's like, because people know what theatre is and they know that there's a different Sherlock Holmes every 10 years, you know? James Bond, whatever. James Bond? Exactly. And I think that's the right way to go. And not that it's a, say, a weakness of Robert Holmes, but he writes such rich worlds that to him, he has to explain to the viewer why this change has been made. Maybe he was traumatised having watched the chase recently or something. wanted to correct that error. Well, we were all traumatised. In his initial concept, Dr. Will, as he calls him, is a robot replica. And that's why he's not quite right. If only the chase duplicate was only just not quite right. It's interesting Caroline Ford was out here recently and she was talking about working with Richard Herndle and saying that he was very concerned, like, oh, did I do that right constantly asking you know, making sure that he wanted to get it as right as possible? And I think he does a really spectacular job. Yeah, you know? Yeah, maybe he doesn't look exactly like heart and all like, but you know, nobody's going to at that time. And I think it was very serendipitous that JNT saw him in a repeat of Blake Seven. you know? And he manages to convey that character. In fact, too, there is a sense in 1983 where the 1st doctor is largely unknowable, and we just think of him as the grumpy one, and that's not at all what he's like. A lot of that is informed by the only thing that had been seen of him in the last decade, which was the unearthly childhood. Yeah, aggression, but we didn't have anything where he actually is quite abrasive and grumpy for a lot of it. And I remember thinking that it had been a shame that he was not really able to participate in the 3 doctors very much. And so the fact that Bill was gone, did free them up, to give that 1st doctor more to do. And I actually like how they give him the job of solving the problem. He's the one who understands that they just need to let Barusa go and take Rassalon's ring and become immortal. Well, as the 2nd doctor said in the 3 doctors, he's always had a lot of respect for his opinion. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think that's really terrific. And I do think he's very good and I think he is a bit silly and whimsical. And for those people who think that the 1st doctor only becomes sexist in twice upon a time, there is that wonderful moment where he tells Tegan to go and make some tea. And, you know, Pete's doctor has to kind of apologise for that. I thought Janet loses it. Hang on a minute. That sounds nice, but I think that's done nicely. Yeah, but it's not, it's actually not the fact that he asks her to fetch refreshments. It's the fact that that's the preamble to it is, look, young lady make yourself useful. It's the way the whole thing plays. And if I may observe that about Terrence's dialogue in all this given how much of it, it's a Tetris puzzle and bringing it all together, in the main, everyone gets the right amount of dialogue that you might expect. And there are wonderful sequences where there's a series of swiftly delivered lines one after the other from different characters to sort of build the scene. It's not like 2 of them are talking and the other ones are over here. You know, it's not just like you're hardly a suitable candidate for anything, all that sort of thing. I mean, Terence is so talented that he's genetically incapable of writing bad dialogue. So even given scenes like these, which are necessarily propelled forward by the plot. He fills them with great dialogue. And so this is perhaps the endlessly quotable Doctor Who story for fans of your and my vintage, Simon and Todd and Nathan. It's revealing of character as well. So that scene with the 2nd doctor where he's in the office with Colonel Crichton and the brigadier and he says you've redecorated. I don't like it, which is something only Terrant could have included because he remembered that from the 3 doctors. But then also the killer line, you're his replacement. Mine was pretty unpromising too. Yes, which is just, it works on so many brilliant levels. It's Terence having a swipe at pertwi. It's the 2nd doctor having a swipe at the third. But this is what I'm saying about the fact that these multi-doctor stories, these multi-doctor stories existing in this kind of with ghostly spiritual remnants of each doctor because this Trouton has done the 3 doctors. He remembers, oh, could you, do you know what I mean? So that's why, you know, in the end, you haven't changed, still finding menace in your own shadow. So he knows John Pertwe's doctor. Yeah, see, in my head, Canon, they can only remember that when they come back together when it's all tied out of sync. Yeah, that works too. They don't remember the 3 or the 5 doctors, it's only when this sort of anomally happens, that memory comes back. And Stephen Moffat picks up on that for day of the doctor and explicitly says at the end that John Hurts doctor won't remember. Yes. So that sort of preserves the fact that we then have Christopher Ecklson and David Tennant feeling incredibly guilty about the time war. Yeah. Something that's really masterful about Terrence's dialogue with the 4 leading men is that gives him for people to share the exposition among. Because something that was certainly a problem in, say, arc of infinity and terminus is a lot of it was just Peter Davison breathlessly going, oh, well, this is very bad because the thing's going to thing, and then the thing will or won't happen. I don't know. Whereas here, you can have character, character, character character. Wrestleon is sleeping in his tomb and may have started the games himself and may have brought us here. Oh, and Brigadier, aren't you being silly? You know, and you can share that, but also picking up on what you were saying earlier, Nathan, with the fact that the 1st doctor's the one who solves the problem. It's kind of like each doctor solves problems in the story in a way unique to their character. So the 1st doctor doesn't get in any physical altercations, but he'll push a dalek down a corridor, so it shoots itself, and then he'll use his wits at the end. The 2nd doctor deals with the yeti by finding stuff in his pockets. The 3rd doctor creates a flying fox. I think the 1st doctor explains what pie is to the children at home. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. thought that was wonderful. Wasn't that wonderful? Does he explain the application? Even though neither the use of pie, nor the way to pizza or know anything about it. And Davison, of course, begins to solve the problem by pretending to just be a little bit annoying with the guard. It's like, oh, well, was the president did it? Really? Oh, well, I don't see him. Do you see him? How about you leave me alone to search this room? That thing about pie. I mean, even though that sequence is ridiculous. It's meant so much to us. I think back in the day. And now you can obviously look up high to have many decimal places. But, you know, it took, I think Brett, you and I found a book in the school library and was able to say that it was 3.141592653589793237462643383279. No, no, no, it was it was our year seven, maths book. Oh, did it? Oh, I thought it was a library book. But there is actually one digit. I think I've got there's a digit, which is a misprint, because it's subsequently found. 7 or an eight. It just said, yes, exactly. Oh, people, you are just transfixed with this. I mean, there was a seven. Yeah, one of the sevens should be an eight, but I still remember it as the seven. But that's the kind of thing that it Doctor Who inspired and it should. Yes, exactly. Don't look at me like that. The 1st doctor, of course, does it? Which is absolutely perfect for him in that era. I always wondered how Tegan got from square 2 to square 9 in one jump, you know, that she was going across. I don't I was trying. Yeah, don't think about it. I just love the weight and just walks across like, there's no rhyme or reason. I'm going, you're not going to, like, don't step over the lines like, in the little boxes. So I think it has to let Time Lords through. Yeah. And the novelisation is rather wonderful with that in that he starts sort of figuring it out and then the paragraph is something all lines off. Tegan had no idea what the doctor was doing, but before she knew it, he was over the other side of the board. So even Terrence is going, I don't understand how it works. I just wrote it. Screw you. Terrence in the novelisation does fix, I would suggest the two eras of production, which I put the pie sequence down to, because I think that's just, that was never going to be capable of working. And that is the sequence by the road with Sarah, which is unfortunately, shot and beat him off it on the documentary, sort of says, look, we tried, we tried. There was just no suitable. And actually, I think it's that sequence, which is responsible for a lot of his reputation in fandom as bad director. Exactly. But it's not just that then you got this longer shot as the car's driving off, which makes it even clearer that it's just a kind of a little thing that she could have walked up. See, surely the better decision then was for them to go, okay, this cannot work then. So she slips and trips because of the mist, she falls down the slope, and he just helps her out. Rather, like a power. That's the thing that makes it ridiculous. And her reaction being a bit too much for falling down the thing. She just should be upset for, I don't know where I am. And the other sequence is that Susan tripping over that Noll? Okay, there are 3 areas of production, so I think I should be, that was a bit rubbish, but it does allow her to then not be able to join the 1st doctor and Tegan on their trip to the tower. So there's a story reason for that. And it's like she's a 60s companion and she's rubbish. Oh, just as an aside, don't you love the bit when they're running through the kind of the maze with being chased by the darling. Caroline Ford is giving her best and an earthly child running slowly whilst trying to look exhausted. It's almost like she should be in close up running on the spot. Yes, running on the spot. Tree branches. I think she is also being sensitive to the fact that Richard Herndle is 72. He's a very young. Don't get me wrong. I was surprised he was 72. Yeah. When you consider that the original actor was only what, 55? Yeah, yeah. And Todd, we talked about this back in the day is the Ruston Warrior robot sequence where dear Elizabeth Slayton is being as still as she can. Well, John Pertwee feels completely able to move his head from side to side, not be shocked by the Raston Warrior robot, which is a bit like they could have done that a bit better. Does the brigadier turns his head as well? Yeah, Barusa freezes them all. Yeah. I'm always disappointed that poor Susan never got, we never got to see her time scooped. Do you know what I mean? Like, I always felt that in the novelisation. You're right. It's in the novelisation. But I always found that strange that everybody else, like Sarah got time scooped, but she just appeared. Do you know what I mean? Like, I know it's sort of a, not a jump scare, but, you know, it's the, oh, there's somebody else here, but I just thought it was weird. I wonder if they just didn't want to kind of say where Susan had ended up. I think it could also be a matter of, for the others, it was very easy to do it in sort of controlling. North Wales. but also controlled environments and places that didn't need set dressing. Like everyone else is ostensibly taken either from the present day or from an indeterminate period. We know that Susan is in the 22nd century in the novelisation. She's, you know, wandering through ruins, but also going, oh, these new buildings have come up and reconstruction and those wonderful moving walkways. Yeah. And, you know, it's just a matter of, okay, in order to do Susan either they would have had to put her in a total wasteland, which means she's been in a total wasteland for 20 years, or it's a setting that would be a setting for an entire four-part story. Exactly, yeah. too hard. And it's one of those things that is then left to the imagination. And I really love the way Terrence does it in the novelisation and she's happy with David and he's rebuilding the earth and she's rebuilding the earth. And it's interesting that whenever Susan has been brought back in various media, be it the 5 doctors, be it the big finish with Paul McGann. They make it very clear that she had a happy life with David. You know, as funny as that Jane Asher thing is, and as much as we you know, I believe on our last 5 doctors episode, Richard screamed, now get out of my ship, you painted. She had a happy life with David, she does love him. She does. She does, he does. She does. The other bit of nice interiority we get in the novelisation is that the reason that Sarah dismisses canine's warning is she still hurt by the fact the doctor never came back. That's why she won't believe that the doctor's involved because he hasn't come back in however many years. And then in the Dark Tower, when she says to Tegan, which one's yours, because that's still in the novelisation. Tegan explains, well, none of these ones, I've actually got this one, and Sarah figures out that the 4th doctor isn't here, and she's disappointed because it would have been nice to see him again. And I think that's Terence kind of going, hey, if anyone ever tells Tom about this, If Tom's ever signing the novelisation, I'd like for the mention of him to be fond. Yeah. And in fact, Liz Slayton said that when she was there for the photo call where they had the dummy from Madame Tussauds, and the other doctors were kind of mucking around with it, kind of like poking him and like pretending to defer to him and all that. She didn't like it. She felt uncomfortable because that's not how she viewed Tom. That scene, Brendan, where Tegan and Sarah say hello to each other and then the brigadier recognises both of them, and the 3rd doctor comes over and says hello to the brigadier. That's all one sequence. It lasts for about 45 seconds and is absolutely the most heartwarming scene of the episode because we didn't need any of those bits. If it had been a modern television program. They'd have milked every last bit of emotion out of it and would have had fanboys and fan goals bawling at the screen 5 minutes in. I was in tears after 3 minutes. Exactly. Whereas it's just the perfect level. Terrence knows exactly how to pitch it. We need that meeting between the 3rd doctor and Abedia. They can't ignore each other. It's over and done with in 15 seconds and it's amazing. I actually think that that is the biggest shame about it. We don't get a sense of, and the show doesn't do it at this time and, you know, it goes on to do it much better in the 21st century I think, which is to give some sense of what it's really like to travel with a doctor and to have had this experience. And there's a kind of stiffness, even to the brigadier coming over and saying, Miss Smith, isn't it? And you kind of go, really? You know, maybe it's not. I don't know It all just seems to lack a very English way of expressing something. Maybe, maybe. But then, of course, we get Barusa coming in and freezing everyone before they start having any interaction. Like very definitely isn't about that and isn't intending to be about that. It's not failing to be about that, but it is a bit of a shame that we don't get more of it. It's a little bit like Ian Marty coming back for Android Invasion and no one really seeming to kind of bat an eyelid that Harry's here. I love it in the book that Sarah and Teagan get to talk about which doctor is which. Like, yeah. That's my little fun boy heart going. Yeah. But I think the modern era goes into far too hard at trying to think, well, what would it be like to travel the doctor and the impact it would have on your life and in some respects, it's trying too hard to show the devastating impact it can have on your life. Whereas I think the show needs a little bit more of the innocence that you get here for it to work because it is horrific and ridiculous. And, you know, your life is in peril every time you step out of the Tartars, really. Who in their right mind would do that. And so you have to kind of hide that conceit by basically not dealing with it. And to be fair, you know, the new series does kind of do that at glosses over that. And in Russell's era, with the exception of Donna, everyone leaves kind of slightly better off or something. Do you know what I mean? They get a new job, they get a new dad back. They get, you know, like, thing is, I quite like when Martha and Donna meet and Martha sort of gently but firmly says to Donna, you need to think about the effect this is having on your life. You don't need to stop and I went through something terrible. It wasn't the doctor's fault. We're still friends. I would still do anything for him, but Donna, you know, you just need to think about what you're doing. And then Martha fully is on board with Donna carrying on travelling just as she's fully on board with. No, no, no, I'm going to go home and not marry Tom Milligan for some reason. But see, this is also Terrence. Terence didn't. gush with emotion. He's not that kind of person. And so when we think about the classic series and we think about the most potent departures with companions, for instance, then Joe Grant is right up there because Terrence knew that he had to set that up at the start of the story in a scene and then pay it off in a wonderful scene at the end, which is really heartwarming. And that scene at the end of the Green Death is kind of the interactions that we get in the 5 doctors. They're momentarily affecting, and then we move on with the story. That's what the classic series did. It's funny that Terrence actually gets the climactic moment in Day of the Doctor, where the various doctors repeat his speech from the 1976 edition of the making of Doctor Who. you know, the never cruel or cowardly speech, and that gets given to the doctors, and it is the thing that the show is about, because ultimately day of the doctor is a proper Doctor Who adventure, and doesn't just showcase a sort of bunch of people who'd been in the regular class before, and it aspires to say something about who the doctor is and the big moment is the doctor reclaiming that title, you know John Hertz doctor, reclaim that title, with the assistance of the other 2 doctors and Clara and so on. But the title is defined by Terrence in that speech, which is pretty incredible, I think. You know, I think Terence actually gets a bit of raw deal. People say that this was a puzzle box kind of jigsaw that he put together, which is true. But I think he also finds ways to make it thematic. And so, of course, it's about immortality. And the unchanging nature of Gallifrey and Barusa, who, for all of his different faces, has been at the apex at the Time Lord hierarchy forever and ever. And that's contrasted against the doctor, who is more free wheeling, more anarchic, and realise that immortality is a curse. And so what the program has done throughout its 20 years up to this point is constantly changed. And that's what Brusa doesn't want. He wants to be in charge forever and calcify. That's what the doctor is fighting against. So Terence is actually working in a theme there. I think you're right. He's actually like, you know, bringing in Barusa and making him a villain. I was totally shocked. Like, I didn't see it coming. But that's my 12 year old self, but also bringing in Wrestleon as well, who's being mentioned, you know, but always that mysterious figure. And I just love how he also, like, he works in the dialect. He works in all the cybermen, and then he comes up with something new with the Western Oreo robot, which, wait, Terence was in a dalek and aside them. Yes. And yeti, obviously, but having that greater hits of things, but also having that new element, you know, and making a twist on the old. It's funny, he said that he had to fight to get a dalek in there. And it was so obvious that you had to have Hartnell with a darling. Is that partly because it was supposed to be a warhead that was supposed to be the story to end season 20? There would have been 2 Dalek stories in a row, but that surely wouldn't have been an issue. if it was. It is also the 1st appearance of the Daleks in the JNT era. You know, he had wanted the Daleks to be a big thing at the end of season 20. He didn't want to just introduce them for a scene at the beginning of this, I think. You know, when it gets killed and that mutant's all being all shaking. I think that's brilliant Well, that's the other thing too, of course, because as kids, as little kids, seeing the Dalek Muse absolutely really wants it to do. Richard Herndle should have sent Susan to the end of the corridor so she didn't have to see that. But picking up on the themes, again, what you're saying there Peter, it is quite extraordinary. I think it is a great moral of the story in that, you know, you can have certain aspects of our life, certain aspects of our society are unchanging. You know, there are certain values which are timeless and certain elements which are timeless, but at the same time, we have to let go, people change, people die and move on. And it is also a celebration of that. And I think that's why perhaps Nathan, it doesn't become teary in a way that you might have wanted it because in some respects, we shouldn't be sad. We should be happy. You know what I mean? And the goodbye, the goodbyes are never, never forever in Doctor Who. I didn't think I wanted it to be teary, but I did think I wanted there to be a little bit more warmth between the characters. That moment. A lot of warmth. Well, but the moment where Susan meets Peter Davison's doctor and just kind of checks him out and stuff and like there's nothing really there about, you know, Susan and her special relationship with the doctor, you know, they don't try and fill one another in on how they've been going or anything like that because there isn't time and that's not what this show is about. And also, there is a slight limitation, and of course, that Terence came on board with the show at the end of the Trout era. Like he was there for most of Troughton's last season. So Carol Anne says that during the read-through in the script Susan doesn't say grandfather, she says, doctor, and she raised objections and it got changed. And for many years, people have kind of gone, well, that's Eric Saywood. But I do also wonder if that's also Terence just not fully understanding. But at the same time, you know, he's novelized Darla invasion birth. So it is probably say word. I think I think it's sabred in JNT. I think it's JNT because there was this weirdness about the doctor being grandfather. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's also, um, the thing that's interesting is that the 1st doctor never calls it the ship. Bishop, that would be great. That would have been great. Yes, that's what we... It's not good to be the Tartars. I think he does. I think he does him twice upon a time. Yes, he twice upon a time. Yeah, exactly. Can I go back to the 20th anniversary Radio Times special as a way of talking about this year? And don't forget a celebration. And a celebration. Peter Haning's a celebration. Flawed though it is, but you know, we had to take what we could. I mean, we were on the other side of the world compared to where the celebrations were and in that documentary about the 5 doctors. It's Fiona Cummings, on the credits. So that must have been what the end of Snake Dance or something. There's an announcement that Longleat's going to happen. And it was in the 20th anniversary radio time, especially, which I'm poring over Christmas. And there are photos of that event and them all there and so on like that. And I kind of felt jealous, but I kind of didn't. Like, I mean, I was completely aware that the prospect of me going to such a thing was just completely out of the question, even if I'd have known that it had been on. But it was just this kind of awareness, suddenly you started getting this awareness, the 1st awareness, that there was this vast community of people out there who were as obsessed with the show as you were. And I think it's the 20th anniversary, which crystallises that obsession in many of us. Thanks to what you get in the media. Because we did get a bit of media here. I mean, that's why I knew 5 Doctors was on, not as much, but there was still media and lots around Peter Davidson's visit. And Peter Davidson's visits and so on like that. So there was stuff happening. So you just got a sense of this greater community and that's when you start to, for the 1st time for me anyway, see the full lists of stories and understand how it all goes together and so on like that. So you get this sense of ears and seasons because I didn't even know that seasons worked the way they did until I saw the 20th anniversary special. I just saw them as, well, obviously they made a block from time worry through the hand of fear. Do you know what I mean? Because of course, of course they did. And then they made a block from face to evil because deadly assassin didn't exist. Face of evil through to invasive type. you know what I mean? And they obviously made the block from leisure hive through the time flight because that's the way we saw it. Well, these kinds of ipochal publications, which formed our fan view back then. And each of them brings different things. So for a long time, it was the making of Doctor Who, the 1976 edition, which did include all of those synopses right up to the hand affair, and which, you know, formed your idea of what the history of the program, what the breadth of it looked like. But then when a celebration and the radio times 20th anniversary special came out, it actually included qualitative judgement on a lot of the stories. Rather, unfortunately, included closer adjustment, I think. Most times it sort of got them right with what received wisdom was. I can remember it saying about Talons Wen Chang that had few peers which is true. But there were certain things which were highly personal judgements which then seeped into fandom and never really went away. The gunfighters? Oh, the gunfighters, for instance, I mean, I happen to think gunfighters is rubbish, but I understand most people don't. And I think it was so important to have those publications because it gave you an idea not just of what Doctor Who had been, but what other people thought of Doctor Who. Yes. Whereas previously that had only been in your own head. Just astonishing. And I think the link to the fact that video recorders were starting to become more ubiquitous. Kind of like, you know, the way everyone started getting a television from the coronation in Britain and everyone started getting a television here with the Melbourne Olympics. The 2 for me go together that the 5 doctors and and being able to record it, not on an audio cassette, but actually on a videotape where I could watch the real program, again, and you never look back. I think it's really interesting you talk about the fact that this is the 1st time we actually thought about seasons. I've never really thought about that before, but this is looking at that radio times, things you suddenly got the different eras. And I remember in the front cover, didn't they have all the different credits of all the different... They had a photo. Oh, how could they do that? How could they do that? But I also think it's very interesting too, that this only got 7.700000 viewers and came 54th or 2nd or something for the week. When the 3 doctors got at its peak, 11.9 was top 10. But I'm just saying, like, there's a shift, like, this was still more than most of the 20th season, but still a significant, I would have expected it to have gotten around 10000000 and I don't know why that is. I do. I believe it's because they made a bad call in having it go out in children in need because children in need is made up of tiny vignettes, whereas suddenly you're taking 90 minute chunk out of that and just making it into a drama. That's not what people tune in to children in need for. And so I believe. It's on in the background while you're having maybe a party in donation. It needed to be its own thing, and then I believe it would have actually attracted me. That was a shame. Should have been shown on Saturday night or something, Frank. So if you think it was on its own dedicated night and promoted as such as this big thing that they could have got. I've always found it really fascinating and I kind of thought of it as a bit of a turning point that the show wasn't as popular with the general public at this and it's all about to unravel. Well, in fact, it's funny, but when we did the 2nd episode on Day of the Doctor, we talked about how, like the 20th anniversary, the day of the doctor kind of marks a kind of end of the program. And in the 80s, of course, Doctor Who is going to stop remembering that it's set in the corner of your living room and that it's something that the whole family can watch. and it's going to become a thing, that is more directed at rusted on fans. And of course, we are just going to gradually see the decline of the show in all sorts of ways. And that doesn't mean that the show gets worse. Some of my favourite stories come after the 5 doctors and some great Doctor Who is still in there. But there is a kind of sense in which we're heading inexorably towards the end. Yeah, because I think I was the one bringing that up. There is a real parallel between the 5 doctors and the day of the doctor. And I agree with what you're saying, that the show does start to eat itself as you move all through the rest of the 80s. But yeah, some of my favourite stories are in that era, but I think it doesn't eat itself as much as it might have. In fact, I think it really starts eating itself when you get to something like season 23. It's that 85 cancellation which shakes everyone's confidence as to what this program is. And in many ways, it's unavoidable because when you have a huge peak like this, a peak of public interest, you know, all throughout that anniversary season in 2013 and all throughout 1983 there's a lot of attention focussed on the show, really the only way to go from there is down. And that's what I said with the day of the doctor as well, is that there are so many appearances of the doctor who people in chat shows. Like there are 1983 is littered with clips of the various doctors and companions in various combinations on everything from Blue Peter at one end to like nationwide or something from the other. Pebble millet one and everything. They do the light, they do the series, they do everything. And it's not just the fact that the public are sick of it. It's the fact that the PR people are sick of it. They feel like, well, we've had those people on. We don't need to promote the new series. Oh, Doctor Who's been around forever. We don't need to worry about that. They move on and I think that actually has a detrimental effect in it. It's like you lose the soft diplomacy and you otherwise get everyone's eyes are on it, including the BBC hierarchy. Yes. And that's also to do with changes of personnel at the top. that starts coming. So a parallel thing that happens here with David Hill taking over the ABC. David Hill is our Michael Grade for what he does to the way the show is presented in Australia. And as well as other aspects that he, quote unquote, modernises the ABC, like what Michael Gray was trying to do to the BBC, some of which needed to be done. Absolutely. But... A certain amount of baby was thrown out with the bathwater in both instance. But the point is that you were inevitably going to have a hangover and the problem with the 5 doctors hangover is, I think, it lasts basically until season 25 or 26. Basically, I think the show is starting to come out of the hangover when the rug is pulled from under it. And I wonder whether the 50th anniversary hangover is actually still with us. The problem of focussing so much for your attention on the anniversary in 1983 is that it lays clear that a lot of the viewer's fondness for the show actually dated from a few years back. So the 1983 season was by any marker, not as popular as, say, the Hinchcliffe or Williams eras. And I think it suddenly becomes clear. In things like the ratings, even though Longleat was oversubscribed with people. We're talking about 50,000 people here. We're not talking about 15 million. And so I think suddenly, everybody, including the papers and the BBC hierarchy, realised that this was an old property, even though they were celebrating 20 years. And certainly the site of those doctors at the top of Rasselon's tower in the tomb and Tom not being there, you've got these 3 very old men and P. and Tom, who had been the doctor for 7 years is nowhere to be seen. That basically a 3rd of the program is missing. Yeah, sad. And also, this is entirely understandable because you have one costume designer doing all these costumes. He comes up with new versions of the old doctor's costumes that look sympathetic to each other, but that means that that shot The predominant colours are beige, and tan, and burgundy. And pink. Oh, I just mean the doctors. But yeah, the girls are all put in shades of pink and purple. Like, it's possibly the worst outfit Sarah has. Oh, no, not possibly. Oh, it's awful. Another nomination? No, no, no. I met up with Elizabeth Stain once in London and it was a rainy day and she emerged from the tube in this see-through plastic raincoat thing. And I was with my friend Sarah and we just looked at each other and going, what the hell is, this is out of the 5 doctors. Personal ring. I just have to throw that. I mean, we have to be thankful for small mercies. There is a different universe, not too far from ours where she's wearing the Andy-pandy outfit. I would have been brave. But, you know, she's leaving her house at the beginning because she's going to a costume party. And everyone's like throughout the whole story. What are you wearing? I was on my way to a party. I was meant to be in Rio. I think the shame, as we were kind of touching on then, was that Tom basically finally said no, he wouldn't do it. And there's all the good reasons in the world why he shouldn't serve for him. And I think after 40 years, 42 years. I think I might have forgiven him for not being in it. Although I think aspects have worked better because I think he would have been the starring doctor in it, that would have been that I think Peter would have actually highlighted more the fact that the show is not what it had been. This is the height of the era of Tom being difficult, nasty, and basically being a god of the doctors, and that extends through to the 30th anniversary. Well, appearing at long lease only on his own panel, not with the others, etc. And also in the US conventions, not even in different panels, but being in a different, practically in a different facility. A different universe. Yeah, to the other. You know, he would not even appear, he would not, he refused to appear on the same stage with them all at the same time, even if they're all in the same building. I think that's when my sympathy goes, ah, come on, dude. you know I think just just just keep it real. But yes, but thank goodness we got him in those clips and wasn't it serendipity that Charter was cancelled? You know, and I didn't know anything really about it. No, thanks to the 20th anniversary radio time. That's right. So it just felt real and it felt organic within the story. I was confused by the clip at the end that they didn't sort of go back to the same point. It was just him lying on the ashevelton, you know, a terrible car park. Yeah, yeah. But you see, still, those 75 seconds from Shada are the highlights of that story. like Charter is terrible in many many ways. And that those 75 seconds belong to the 5 doctors, not to shutter. Yeah, we all pored over those 75 seconds for decades thinking, wow Shada was just going to be this beautifully shot magical, wonderful story, and there is much to recommend, much of it. I'm not as down on it as you are, but, you know, having seen the stuff that they did shoot and then what the stuff that they didn't shoot. And I can imagine it would have looked exactly like the Armageddon factor, those later episodes, endless wandering around corridors with not a lot happening. I think Shada's reputation was only served by not being completed. Yeah, and it just goes to show, you know, what do you have to do to kill Douglas Adams jokes? Get Pennant Roberts to direct them? Is the answer? Roberts is a mass murder. But to the ending of this show, like I was mortified. by them turning into statues with the living dead. That really freaked me out and looks wonderful. But then the whole ending with them all sort of meeting each other and being jovial and saying goodbye and then we're all going into the Tartars and they will go separately and then Pete telling Chancellor Favo that she's got full powers until he returns and all of that ending stuff is just so warm and wonderful. And it just warms my heart. And it's Terrence, because Terrence creates that backstory for the doctor in the war games that he goes on the run from his own people in a rackety old TARDIS. He creates that and he brings it back and it's just terrific and it has one of my favourite Peter Davidson lines, which is when he says to Tegan, sometimes Tegan, you take my breath away. Exactly. It's so funny. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that sequence, Todd, you're right with them all, you know, with the faces coming alive behind the, the, the plastic and just as the camera is panning across, you know, your place is prepared Lord President Barusa. That is an example of why I think Peter Moffa is a good director because he shows you what you need to see at precisely the right moment. It's just as it passes over the blank slate. It's beautifully done, actually, because is it Philip Latham? Yes. He is being shot in front of the place where he's finally going to end up. He turns around to look at it and disappears. It's just very, very well. Simple, but elegant. And I think that's how I would summarise the entirety of the story. It is simple in that it's uncomplicated, but that's what makes it so elegant. Well, it had to be uncomplicated. because what I was trying to do. It didn't have to be elegant. It's elegant because of Terence. Well, I'm also giving piece of Moffatt praise there. Yeah, let's not do that. Come on let's not go overboard. Well, that's all the time we have for this week. will be back next week to discuss Terrence's first original Doctor Who novel Timeworm Exodus. In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts and you can keep up with us on our website, 500yearDiary.com, where you'll find our social media links, as well as links to all of our other podcasts, including our other Doctor Who podcasts, flight through entirety, and the 2nd great and bountiful human empire. Until next time, remember that however you're feeling about things right now, it's still a good idea to accept that party invitation. Thank you very much for listening and good night. Good night. See you soon. It is how it all started. Good night doctor. Doctors. That was 500 year diary, starring Todd Bealby, Nathan Bottomley Peter Griffiths, Brendan Jones, and Simon Moore. The theme was composed by Cameron Lamb. This episode, the quintessential crisis, was recorded on Doctor Who's 62nd anniversary, the 23rd of November, 2025, and released on the 21st of December. Here at the flight through Entirety Cinematic Universe, we'd like to thank everyone who listens to our podcasts, particularly those of you who encourage us with likes, jokes, and compliments online. We love you all. We'll be back for one more episode after Christmas, and we look forward to seeing you all then. I do have something which might be a tag because I was just thinking about, you know, Terence and Bob Holmes. So I was like, Terence starts on Doctor Who, finds there's a gap in scripts, finds this old script called The Space Trap, and calls him Bob Holmes. And then that starts Bob Holmes' relationship with Doctor Who. Terence then kills the show, as you've said before, with Malcolm Hulk, and then says, oh, Bob, I'm taking over. Can you come in and reinvent the show then a year later? Bob, can you reinvent the show again, please? Then, Bob, you can take a year off, but then come in and reinvent the show because he can travel around again now. Oh, can you invent us a new companion, please? And by the way, you're in the Middle Ages. I know you hate it, Bob. Bob, now you've got my job. Can you give me a job, please? Bob, don't rewrite me that much. Thank you very much. And then Bob says to Terence. come in and write lighthouses. Well, I don't know anything about the lighthouses. Well, do your damn job and research it, Terence. Then Crispidby comes along and has no scripts and looks in a drawer and finds this old script called the vampire mutations and calls in Terence Dix. And then finally, for the 5 doctors, You've got Bob saying, this is absolutely ridiculous. And Terence says, yes, Bob, you're quite right. Thankfully, I'm absolutely ridiculous. So I'm going to do this. And they actually do weave around each other through their whole time on Doctor Who together. Because even though this is Terence's last TV script for Doctor Who. You know, Bob will write one next year and the year after and the year after that. And in a way, Terrence doing this kind of means Bob continues to come back because I can imagine if Bob had been forced to write the 6 doctors on the planet Maladoom with Dr. Robot Will and Robot Susan. Good then we got her. Yeah. But, you know, he... We always had robots. Played by Jane Asher. But, you know, I can easily imagine Bob saying, never darken my door again, John Nathan Turner and Eric Saywood. Instead, Eric Saywood takes the 5 doctors and, you know, says, this isn't Bob's thing. It's Terence's thing, but then says, Bob, we do really respect you as a writer, bring us your idea. And it's the caves of Andrazone. I mean, again, another universe, not too far from ours, where Bob Holmes writes the caves around Dasani, and Terrence Dix writes the slot occupied by the dilemma, and the entire sweep of the series looks very different. Does, like, John Nathan Turner doesn't want, like, old Toots. Yeah, yeah. And one's old toots. Bob Holmes specifically. I don't want that old tour. He was threatened by people who he felt had a great humanology Doctor Who than he did, which is bizarre because he'd been working on the show. Yeah, he was there. Junior Robert, nevertheless. Same reason Douglas Campfield doesn't direct this because apparently Douglas actually approached JNT in 1980 saying, oh, I've been away for a while. I wouldn't mind doing one again and JNT basically said to him, no I only want new people. And then, so then... Well, then when JNT... Well... Well, how that worked out was Warris Hussein was kind of interested, but then, kind of not. So JNT approached Douglas Canfield, who basically said, um, 2 years ago, you told me you weren't interested, I have other things to do. I don't need Doctor Who. Yeah. I mean, all of that's quite unfortunate, but maybe like having Terrence like breaks the seal and lets them, let's say we'd pitch. I suspect so. And also JNT, even he couldn't be unaware that if there was an elder statesman of the program, It was Terence. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But also, you know, that Bob Holmes is, you know, perhaps the best writer in the classic series and why would you, you know, Eric likes him and wants to bring him back and he's willing, you know and it did work out quite well, I think. In some ways, it's miraculous that Bob Holmes not working. They turn to Terrence. They could have turned to, I don't know Johnny Byrne. Yeah, yeah, yeah Exactly. Actually, yeah. Or Baker, Dave Martin. Were they not speaking at this? No, they aren't. Also actually, but you say that, Peter. Is that also partly, do they turned Terence partly because and maybe the ice is breaking, because isn't this when kind of conventions around the 20th anniversary is when conventions starts to become a thing, more of a thing? And so a large scale thing. And so these people... would have been crossing over with Terrence all the time. Exactly, in a way that he might not have before. Yeah. Well, there's the famous story of Terrence getting the pitch and sort of Eric was getting very concerned about Bob Scripps and found out Terrence was at a convention and found out the hotel got put through. It's yes, receptionist, it's very urgent. forgetting the time difference. So waking Terence up at 4 AM to say, hey, can we book you as a backup for Bob Holmes? To which Terence said, that's no way to treat a writer like Bob Holmes. And come to think of it, it's no way to treat a writer like me either. And then it is clumsy. Yeah. But then agreed in principle and at his panel in the morning got up and said, I'm writing the 20th anniversary special. No, that part. He must have known that Bob was never going to tolerate me. It's so not him at all. Holmes isn't going to write a big light entertainment celebration spectacular of Doctor Who that goes for 90 minutes. They would just never have happened. But I love your summary, um, and evolve into interweaving through the history of Doctor Who and creating the show that we know and love. I just think we have so much to thank Terrence Dix for and he's right there. Up with verity and the original crew of sustaining this show and building it and making it the show that we love. I don't think we made the point last week, week before, um, in that essentially the, um, the lighthouse pitch was just uh, homes having his revenge. Yeah, Time Warrior, isn't it? Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I do think they did miss a trick, though, with those wonderful closing lines of with that wonderful closing line of, after all that's how it all started. I think they could have used that properly in the seasons that were to come because that's kind of forgotten. It's vaguely remembered in child of a time lord, but not really. I think they could have made something more and kind of reset the show in a way that they didn't. See, also day of the doctor, where the doctor doesn't go hunting for galafrey. Yeah, yeah. Just stumbles across it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think we wind it up. I think we do, yeah, yeah. I think we're done.