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This transcript was created on 2026-05-03 at 08:48:08

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to 500 year diary.

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The only Doctor Who podcast that's starting to suspect that the

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wasting would be much better than whatever it is we've got going

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on right now.

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Bring on the wasting, I say.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Peter.

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I'm Simon.

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And I'm a Commodore 64 in a revolutionary cave that's seen things

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a box that size shouldn't see.

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It's the 22nd of November, 1980.

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It's been a few years since we had a Terence Dick script on Doctor

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Who, but tonight he's back rescued from Christopher H.

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Bidmead's wastepaper basket and ready to thrill and delight the

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5.80000 viewers who have tuned in to watch.

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But Doctor Who is quite a different show in 1980 than it was back

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in 1969 or 1974 or even 1977.

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How does Terence's Doctor Who hold up 11 years after its debut?

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Let's find out as we discuss state of decay.

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So, this script has a pretty storied history, I think.

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It does.

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As we know, it was originally planned to open season 15 and then

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got pushed.

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And there's one of those stories that's become uncontested and

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kind of, you know, just gone into fan consciousness, that it was

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feared that it would be a mockery of Dracula, which was being

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produced by BBC One that autumn.

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I think they just didn't want 2 of their flagship programs to be

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dealing with vampires in the same week.

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So eventually it got binned.

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I don't know why it wasn't resurrected for season 16, which it

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really should have been.

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But when JNT came on board and had no stories left.

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This was one of the ones that was in the file. was retrieved from

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the waste paper basket.

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Yes, but then it gets very quickly tossed into the wastepaper

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basket again in the sense that it is very, very heavily edited by

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Christopher H.

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Midmead.

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And we see him do that with David Fisher's the leisure hive, which

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I mean, David Fisher does 2 scripts in season 16 and they're both

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really funny and basically none of that survives.

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Well, I assume the leisure hive rewrites to do with the fact that

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you know, J&T wanted the tone of the show to be changed.

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So I suspect that I think the original leisure hive was a bit of a

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sillier version of it.

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And wasn't there a moment in time when James he had wanted to

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bring it back to 3 episodes, which is one of the reasons why

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Leisure Heart and Megloss underrun so much?

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That's right Yeah.

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And I'm going to push back a little bit on the idea.

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Again, it's in fan consciousness that Christopher Bidmead edited

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this very heavily.

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I interviewed Terence about this story, like in 1997.

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And he said that actually he went back to basics.

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So he just had a storyline.

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He then went back and revamped the storyline.

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So they didn't really pull much out of the waste paper basket.

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Yes, it's not like they just replaced Leila with remarks.

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That was one of the key things, but also I had to introduce Adrick

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and all that.

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He just went back to basics on how to tell the story.

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And he said that he and Bitmead worked on it together.

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He said it was like working with any other script editor or Bob

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Holmes on the show.

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He was happy with what happened.

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What he then heard through his friend Barry Letts, who is the

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executive producer, is that Bidmead completely tore up the script

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and rewrote it, like page one rewrite, and he couldn't remember

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very much about it, but he said it had things like the vampires

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hatched out of eggs and things like that.

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He then said, I'm not very happy about that.

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Peter Moffatt, the director said, I'm not directing this.

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This is not scripts that I was brought on board to do, and they

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basically went back to the original, which had been hashed out

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between Chris and Terence, with a couple of little things added in

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like the mechanical reader in the TARDIS, rather than some old

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scrolls with the legends Rassalon.

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Right, right.

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That's just tweaks, though.

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I mean, it's interesting because on the Blu-ray, what would have

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been the original DVD extra, the making of, I mean, that would

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have been recorded 9 years after that interview that you did.

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And it's interesting that maybe his memory of that had kind of

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developed because he does recall in that.

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And so does Chris been made a very fractious relationship between

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the 2 of them.

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And a lot of that situation kind of being retold.

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Yeah, Peter Moffatt saying, no, I'm not going to do this.

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And Terence was very happy that he said, it's not usual that a

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director comes to your defence.

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Absolutely.

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And also the fact that Terrence, you know, has a healthy sense of

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humour about these things.

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He knows what being rewritten is like.

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He knows what he rewrites about. absolutely.

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And so he has a sense of humour about it.

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He said, who does this crisp meat think he is?

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Terence Dix.

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I mean, there is a lot of bit meat in the script, I think.

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And in particular, there are 2 things.

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One is just the obsession with scientists and technology, which is

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a feature of stories all the way through this season.

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Bitmead season always has scientists and things.

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And we've already had, you are scientists.

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We've already...

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We've already had a story this season, which has religious

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obscurantists versus scientists in Meglos, and that's absolutely

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what we have here.

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We have a situation where science is forbidden.

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Any kind of learning?

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Any kind of learning?

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reading is forbidden.

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And the lords who are doing religious rituals and things, you know

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they're not just sort of predatory class, they're also a religious

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group in a sense.

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You know, there's sacrifices and rituals that need to be performed

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and you've got Orcon who's a seer and all of that sort of thing.

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And so those contrasts, again, that's very bid me.

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And that will reach, I think, its apotheosis in Legopolis, which

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is all about science being performed as mathematics, being

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performed as ritual, monopolis.

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Yes.

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It's interesting actually you talk about it kind of the religious

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aspects of the Lords because this whole style of thing. you know

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any kind of learning, reading, being forbidden, kind of presages

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certain developments with religious fundamentalism that start to

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develop after this time.

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And even the Handmaids tell, the book of the Handmaid's Tale is, I

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think, early 80s.

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So it's actually after this as well.

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So that's fascinating. being banned from libraries.

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Exactly, all that sort of stuff, yes.

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Banning of knowledge, yes.

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I mean, there were at times laws in the pre-civil war South

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forbidding the teaching of reading to enslave people, like, and

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that was sort of quite common.

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That's always been a thing, yeah.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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There's also something, I think, in the season.

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It plays out in virtually every story about the way that things

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change or don't.

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And so obviously you have entropy as a big thing in Legopolis.

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Entropy increases, the universe is past the point of heat death in

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full circle.

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You have that idea of everything going around in circles.

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In this, it's the fact that for a 1000 years, nothing has changed

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and it's always critique of change or not in this season.

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And that lack of change is bad.

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Absolutely.

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I mean, it's in the title, isn't it?

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It's called statewide decay.

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In one of the original titles, the wasting, exactly.

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Yeah.

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I mean, the wasting is kind of funny because it seems to me that

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sort of mystification, you know, the idea that the ruling class is

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here essentially for our benefit and not to take staff office and

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you know, live well.

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They have all the cheese, apparently.

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I don't think Ivo's wife.

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Ivo's wife doesn't know what cheese is, but Orcon and Camilla and

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Zargo serve cheese to the doctor in Romana in that scene.

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I love how Romana looks down her nose and goes, no thanks.

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It's interesting you mentioned the wasting, though, because I've

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wondered a couple of times when I've watched it.

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She will lead to a waste.

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Anti-ways, to mention.

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But I've always wondered whether there was going to be more made

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about the wasting because it is not a throwaway.

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It's more than a throwaway, but it's never really explored.

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I suppose it's just a device to say, it's something to be

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frightened of, I suppose.

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Yeah.

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But I mean, it's interesting.

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It's one of the ways that the Lords have power over the population

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is by having this thing called the wasting, which we don't know

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anything about.

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The wasting is the wasting.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Does anyone, whenever they have those nicely choreographed shots

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of Orcon, Camilla and Zago, does anyone else see Charles, Camilla

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and Andrew?

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No, that wasn't what came.

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I think we mock them in flight through entirety, we actually make

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fun, perhaps, of those sort of tableaus that they're self

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consciously creating.

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I think they're wonderful.

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I think they are hilarious, particularly when Zargo sort of bears

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his teeth in the background of a shot or something.

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I just think they're really terrific.

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Yeah, it's every band girls were drawing on their pencil coaster

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at exactly that year.

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But I think it's actually just the right side of it because it

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only happens in that one scene when Orcon says that, you know, I

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think I found someone and...

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It's all being played to camera in this theatrical way, but I

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think it's on the right line of absurdity.

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And I think it also goes to the fact that, you know, they all look

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like, well, particularly Zago and Camilla look like playing

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cards.

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Yes don't they?

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And that's part of the design.

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And so it all kind of works when they do that little dump.

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Yeah, I mean, isn't that the story of successful Doctor Who?

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It's just on the right side.

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100%.

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Yeah, 100%.

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And it's just like the entirely historically accurate mask of man

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dragon. in terms of the way the clay is done.

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In any case, there is plenty of Christopher H.

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Bidmeade here.

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But I am interested in trying to identify what is particularly

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Terence here, because this is different, I think, from any of the

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stories that we've discussed so far.

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It is, and yet it isn't.

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I think the Christopher H.

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Bidmidness of it are light touches, the trappings.

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The trappings.

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Thank you.

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Whether it's the Jaki, Jaki, Jaki, Jago business.

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Which is absolutely bidmead.

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Which is very bitmeading so much so that Terrence said that

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basically Bidmead wanted to spend like about 5 minutes of the

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story explaining the consonant and bowel shift or whatever

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whatever they are.

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I would have loved that.

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Yes, I would have loved that.

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Not entirely sure that the audiences would have, I think I think

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it's done enough.

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Like we get it.

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And that's more of a tense, something.

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But fundamentally, it is actually different to all the other

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stories of this season because it is an older-fashioned Doctor Who

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story. reassuringly traditional.

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Yes, and I don't mean old-fashioned in a pejority because it is

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traditional.

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And again, I don't want traditional to be a pejorative either

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because Terrence is capable and I think it's partly because of all

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the, you know, novelization's here, he wrote.

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So he understands and being scripted for such a long time.

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He understands how to make a story go from A to B to CCD.

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And so he doesn't sit there and agonise about how to get from A to

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B, C to D. There's a kind of a logical and easy flow that

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happens.

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And when I was watching it to do this podcast, I was reminded of

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that, the opening scene is set up with so many wonderful things

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mentioned, the time of rising, and the chosen one, and all of

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these capitalisations, the kind of allittered throughout the

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script, but not in a way which detracts.

250
00:12:12.120 --> 00:12:16.019
And the whole structure of the story is so Terence, the way it

251
00:12:16.019 --> 00:12:18.480
builds the positioning of the cliffhangers, the way different

252
00:12:18.480 --> 00:12:20.159
things are introduced in different episodes.

253
00:12:20.220 --> 00:12:22.740
We kind of talked about this in horror Fang rock, I think, last

254
00:12:22.740 --> 00:12:22.919
week.

255
00:12:22.980 --> 00:12:23.820
Same sort of deal.

256
00:12:23.879 --> 00:12:26.340
We also talked about it in robot.

257
00:12:26.399 --> 00:12:29.879
He's able to introduce new elements to the script.

258
00:12:29.940 --> 00:12:31.080
So he doesn't need.

259
00:12:31.139 --> 00:12:34.980
We never get, you know, 2 episodes of people running in place.

260
00:12:35.039 --> 00:12:37.799
We don't delay things artificially.

261
00:12:37.860 --> 00:12:40.860
No one has to be locked up in episode 3 although that does kind of

262
00:12:40.860 --> 00:12:41.159
happen here.

263
00:12:42.120 --> 00:12:44.460
In the most entertaining way possible.

264
00:12:44.519 --> 00:12:45.899
Exactly. delivers information.

265
00:12:45.960 --> 00:12:47.039
And that's the point.

266
00:12:47.100 --> 00:12:50.100
I mean, it's often been a discussion on this podcast that is the

267
00:12:50.100 --> 00:12:53.159
ideal length of Doctor Who story, actually classic era one

268
00:12:53.159 --> 00:12:54.000
actually 3 episodes.

269
00:12:54.120 --> 00:12:57.000
And whilst I don't have anything against 3 episode stories per se

270
00:12:57.000 --> 00:13:01.440
in the McCoy, they're great, but I think that happens as the 80s

271
00:13:01.440 --> 00:13:05.039
progress because a certain script editor doesn't understand how to

272
00:13:05.039 --> 00:13:08.279
structure or get a story is structured when you've got only so

273
00:13:08.279 --> 00:13:10.200
many sets, only so many speaking parts.

274
00:13:10.259 --> 00:13:12.720
Terence completely understands how you do that.

275
00:13:12.779 --> 00:13:15.179
And let me pick up on what you're saying there because obviously

276
00:13:15.179 --> 00:13:18.059
from all his years of script editing, Terrence knows exactly how

277
00:13:18.059 --> 00:13:19.440
to structure a 4 parter.

278
00:13:19.500 --> 00:13:21.779
What he does here is he drops you into the action.

279
00:13:21.840 --> 00:13:25.379
He then moves the doctor in Romana around the place, so they go to

280
00:13:25.379 --> 00:13:25.919
the village.

281
00:13:25.980 --> 00:13:27.840
They meet Heberus. find things out.

282
00:13:27.899 --> 00:13:28.980
That's right, find things out.

283
00:13:29.039 --> 00:13:32.940
They then go to the Technicothica and meet Mr. Kimber.

284
00:13:33.000 --> 00:13:33.899
Find other things out.

285
00:13:33.960 --> 00:13:34.980
Find other things out.

286
00:13:35.039 --> 00:13:39.240
He delays meeting the villains until episode 2 to really start

287
00:13:39.240 --> 00:13:40.019
that with a punch.

288
00:13:40.139 --> 00:13:42.840
But in that scene, which I would like to talk more about later

289
00:13:42.840 --> 00:13:45.840
they actually dance around each other, you don't find out too

290
00:13:45.840 --> 00:13:46.259
much.

291
00:13:46.320 --> 00:13:50.220
And so that saves more kind of revelations and confrontations

292
00:13:50.220 --> 00:13:50.879
further on.

293
00:13:50.940 --> 00:13:54.299
When you reach episode 3 and there's a danger that the story can

294
00:13:54.299 --> 00:13:55.259
run out of steam.

295
00:13:55.320 --> 00:13:57.120
He splits up the regulars.

296
00:13:57.240 --> 00:14:00.179
He has the doctor go back to the TARDIS to find out background on

297
00:14:00.179 --> 00:14:03.480
what they're facing, while Romana hooks up with one of the

298
00:14:03.480 --> 00:14:05.940
sporting characters and goes and explores the castle.

299
00:14:06.000 --> 00:14:07.500
He's so effortless about it.

300
00:14:07.559 --> 00:14:09.659
And I think that's why we think this is traditional.

301
00:14:09.720 --> 00:14:13.500
It is classic, but it has that archetypal Doctor Who structure

302
00:14:13.500 --> 00:14:14.460
which Terence Nails.

303
00:14:14.519 --> 00:14:16.379
Also, he adds things.

304
00:14:16.440 --> 00:14:20.519
So the time of arising is a thing that's coming, that sets a kind

305
00:14:20.519 --> 00:14:24.059
of endpoint for the thing, and it turns up.

306
00:14:24.120 --> 00:14:28.259
And I think the fact that Kalmar discovers the scanner and is then

307
00:14:28.259 --> 00:14:31.980
able to verify the fact that there's something under the tower.

308
00:14:32.039 --> 00:14:35.879
And then the villager's decision to storm the tower.

309
00:14:35.940 --> 00:14:39.899
Like those are all things that happen and move the story on.

310
00:14:40.019 --> 00:14:42.360
So he introduces new elements.

311
00:14:42.419 --> 00:14:46.379
It's like the arrival of the boat at the end of episode one of

312
00:14:46.379 --> 00:14:47.639
Horror of Fang Rock.

313
00:14:47.700 --> 00:14:50.940
All of that stuff is a thing that he does.

314
00:14:51.000 --> 00:14:52.139
And you're right.

315
00:14:52.200 --> 00:14:54.240
I think you said something, Peter, and I can't remember if it was

316
00:14:54.240 --> 00:14:58.980
in a podcast or just in real life at some point, that later on

317
00:14:58.980 --> 00:15:03.179
they lose the knack of doing that properly, that what we do is we

318
00:15:03.179 --> 00:15:06.779
set up an environment and then have a series of escapes and

319
00:15:06.779 --> 00:15:09.299
captures and stuff until we reach the denouement.

320
00:15:09.360 --> 00:15:10.620
Until we run out of time.

321
00:15:10.679 --> 00:15:11.159
Yeah, yeah.

322
00:15:11.220 --> 00:15:12.659
And Terrence sets that up.

323
00:15:12.659 --> 00:15:14.279
You're right. the presaging.

324
00:15:14.340 --> 00:15:16.799
We talked about this on robot, the structuring you were just

325
00:15:16.799 --> 00:15:17.100
saying.

326
00:15:17.159 --> 00:15:20.340
And how predicating these little moments of horror.

327
00:15:20.399 --> 00:15:24.419
So the 1st moment I remember watching this in 82 was that the boys

328
00:15:24.419 --> 00:15:25.500
keep disappearing.

329
00:15:25.559 --> 00:15:27.299
I thought, oh, the guards are, oh, they're all going to be

330
00:15:27.299 --> 00:15:27.600
guards.

331
00:15:27.659 --> 00:15:30.600
Even before we that, we know they're knocking down the east wing

332
00:15:30.600 --> 00:15:32.039
of the hydrax to build the ballroom.

333
00:15:32.639 --> 00:15:34.500
But are they?

334
00:15:34.559 --> 00:15:37.860
Don't they fire the east wing of the hydrax into the air?

335
00:15:39.600 --> 00:15:41.039
It is.

336
00:15:41.100 --> 00:15:42.419
Sounds a little nightpad.

337
00:15:42.480 --> 00:15:46.139
We know it's a vampire story early on, but there's just all these

338
00:15:46.139 --> 00:15:46.980
little points.

339
00:15:47.100 --> 00:15:51.779
And yes, he goes to Hammohora and Bram Stoker, but he's actually

340
00:15:51.779 --> 00:15:53.519
going more to...

341
00:15:54.299 --> 00:15:56.279
Well, you know, there's that novel, Carmeilla.

342
00:15:56.399 --> 00:16:00.299
Anyway, there's a lot of Vampire, and Christopher Fralin, who

343
00:16:00.299 --> 00:16:01.320
talks on the DVD.

344
00:16:01.379 --> 00:16:04.679
I've got a book of his from the 80s because I was so loved this

345
00:16:04.679 --> 00:16:05.100
story.

346
00:16:05.159 --> 00:16:08.639
And wasn't this the 1st target that came out for season 18 quite

347
00:16:08.639 --> 00:16:09.360
early on.

348
00:16:09.419 --> 00:16:10.980
This was the 1st target.

349
00:16:11.399 --> 00:16:15.840
And it came out, I think, about 6 months after it was on TV, which

350
00:16:15.840 --> 00:16:19.019
is fairly, fairly short in target novelisation terms.

351
00:16:19.080 --> 00:16:21.299
We got it in Australia before it was on TV.

352
00:16:21.360 --> 00:16:22.080
No.

353
00:16:22.080 --> 00:16:23.100
I think we did.

354
00:16:23.159 --> 00:16:25.379
I would be surprised.

355
00:16:25.440 --> 00:16:26.460
Yeah, that's true, actually.

356
00:16:26.519 --> 00:16:28.980
I don't remember reading that logo in bookshops. interesting.

357
00:16:29.039 --> 00:16:31.799
I remember reading it, grabbing it. didn't know.

358
00:16:31.860 --> 00:16:34.019
We just saw it on a shelf and we'd haunt these books.

359
00:16:34.139 --> 00:16:34.860
You've got it.

360
00:16:34.919 --> 00:16:36.840
And reading it before it was on TV.

361
00:16:36.899 --> 00:16:39.179
And that would be Terrence as well.

362
00:16:39.240 --> 00:16:42.720
Terrence would not do anything as inelegant as just going to

363
00:16:42.720 --> 00:16:44.519
Dracula as his source material.

364
00:16:44.580 --> 00:16:46.620
He would be better read than that.

365
00:16:46.679 --> 00:16:49.980
And so that book, Camilla.

366
00:16:50.039 --> 00:16:53.340
Obviously, that was one of the earliest works of lesbian vampire

367
00:16:53.340 --> 00:16:54.360
fiction as well.

368
00:16:54.419 --> 00:16:56.580
And the current royal family we did not mention.

369
00:16:57.000 --> 00:17:01.259
And of course, Camilla in the story was originally spelt Camilla.

370
00:17:01.320 --> 00:17:02.580
Yeah, right, he's making that clear.

371
00:17:02.639 --> 00:17:07.259
But Terrence also pointed out that he went to the Hamahara style

372
00:17:07.259 --> 00:17:10.859
of Dracula, not the actual Bram Stoker, because it's a very

373
00:17:10.859 --> 00:17:14.700
different way that the vampires are portrayed.

374
00:17:14.759 --> 00:17:17.400
And so this is the more of this little schlock horror kind of

375
00:17:17.400 --> 00:17:17.640
thing.

376
00:17:17.759 --> 00:17:18.779
Isn't L in one of them?

377
00:17:18.839 --> 00:17:20.160
Yeah, she is.

378
00:17:20.220 --> 00:17:21.240
She thought she was.

379
00:17:21.359 --> 00:17:23.640
Would you like a great piece of trivia as well?

380
00:17:23.700 --> 00:17:25.859
Always, Peter, always.

381
00:17:25.920 --> 00:17:28.740
The judgement is out on what this will be great.

382
00:17:28.799 --> 00:17:29.819
It is a piece of trivia.

383
00:17:29.940 --> 00:17:32.039
Emirus James, who plays Orcon.

384
00:17:32.099 --> 00:17:32.759
Wonderfully, yeah.

385
00:17:32.759 --> 00:17:36.779
In the same week as episode 3 was in a hammer house of horror.

386
00:17:36.900 --> 00:17:37.680
There we go.

387
00:17:37.740 --> 00:17:40.980
With his bodice being ripped as we speak.

388
00:17:41.039 --> 00:17:44.460
How can we just say, what a delicious performance.

389
00:17:44.519 --> 00:17:48.000
You say Simon earlier, just on the right side of the line.

390
00:17:48.059 --> 00:17:50.519
His performance just straddles that line.

391
00:17:50.579 --> 00:17:51.900
Absolutely perfectly.

392
00:17:51.960 --> 00:17:55.920
He knows when to make it dramatic and when to go soaring over the

393
00:17:55.920 --> 00:17:56.039
top.

394
00:17:56.160 --> 00:17:59.519
And the other thing about a great performance, which I think can

395
00:17:59.519 --> 00:18:04.079
be lost with bad directors, is there is opportunity for him to

396
00:18:04.079 --> 00:18:04.980
pause.

397
00:18:05.039 --> 00:18:07.920
So the performance is given with poise.

398
00:18:07.980 --> 00:18:11.460
Lala did an RSC with Emris James.

399
00:18:11.519 --> 00:18:12.539
And it was funny.

400
00:18:12.599 --> 00:18:16.140
It's a very, it's that sort of RSC and almost faux RSC thing.

401
00:18:16.140 --> 00:18:17.160
And that's one of the things it makes.

402
00:18:17.160 --> 00:18:18.660
That era of Dr. B so good.

403
00:18:21.420 --> 00:18:23.220
For example.

404
00:18:24.119 --> 00:18:27.660
But the other thing I want to note, that something else Terrence

405
00:18:27.660 --> 00:18:30.359
has said, which I think is very evident here.

406
00:18:30.420 --> 00:18:33.599
He said, once you've created a good setting.

407
00:18:33.660 --> 00:18:36.660
The supporting characters do kind of just create themselves.

408
00:18:36.720 --> 00:18:40.740
Like they just come out of the setting that's been created.

409
00:18:40.859 --> 00:18:42.599
And that's kind of goes back to the point I was trying to make

410
00:18:42.599 --> 00:18:46.200
before about the fact that it's an unpretentious way of creating a

411
00:18:46.200 --> 00:18:46.500
story.

412
00:18:46.559 --> 00:18:47.579
There is nothing forced.

413
00:18:47.640 --> 00:18:49.259
There is nothing shoehorned in.

414
00:18:49.380 --> 00:18:51.839
It all just naturally progresses and flows.

415
00:18:51.900 --> 00:18:53.579
It's actually kind of what you would expect.

416
00:18:53.640 --> 00:18:56.400
And I think that that is Terence, while that is true.

417
00:18:56.460 --> 00:19:00.359
That's Terence being typically kind of self-effacing.

418
00:19:00.420 --> 00:19:01.619
They don't create themselves.

419
00:19:01.680 --> 00:19:05.220
A great writer creates these great characters that come out of the

420
00:19:05.220 --> 00:19:05.519
setting.

421
00:19:05.579 --> 00:19:07.259
It's just that he would never make that claim for himself.

422
00:19:07.319 --> 00:19:11.220
Yes, but what the point he's making is that he doesn't he doesn't

423
00:19:11.220 --> 00:19:14.640
kind of have a pre-ordained idea of what the people need to be

424
00:19:14.640 --> 00:19:15.420
what needs to happen.

425
00:19:15.480 --> 00:19:18.240
He's kind of just saying that if you effectively he's saying if

426
00:19:18.240 --> 00:19:22.559
you do the legwork on the idea and the concept, it all just

427
00:19:22.559 --> 00:19:23.579
happens.

428
00:19:23.640 --> 00:19:25.319
Again, see horrifying rock last week.

429
00:19:25.380 --> 00:19:25.920
Exactly.

430
00:19:25.980 --> 00:19:26.579
Another good example.

431
00:19:26.640 --> 00:19:29.819
I can detect some Bob Holmes in this as well.

432
00:19:30.420 --> 00:19:34.619
I mean, last week, Horror Fang Rock, people say, oh, you know

433
00:19:34.619 --> 00:19:37.259
that's a Hinchcliffe story because they don't really want Graham

434
00:19:37.259 --> 00:19:38.519
Williams to have a good story.

435
00:19:38.579 --> 00:19:43.079
So, but it's just some dumb aliens landed.

436
00:19:43.140 --> 00:19:44.519
Whereas here what we...

437
00:19:44.519 --> 00:19:45.779
We're talking about Reuben the Ruten.

438
00:19:45.779 --> 00:19:46.619
Reuben the Ruten.

439
00:19:46.680 --> 00:19:50.819
But what we have here is what Holmes has in so many of his stories

440
00:19:50.819 --> 00:19:55.440
which is an ancient evil, long thought dead coming back to life

441
00:19:55.440 --> 00:19:57.059
much like this point.

442
00:19:57.660 --> 00:20:03.240
But, you know, which exists in so many of his stories in the

443
00:20:03.240 --> 00:20:06.660
Hinchcliffe here are obviously Brain of Morbius, but Pyramids of

444
00:20:06.660 --> 00:20:10.200
Mars, even the Crinoid, for God's sake, is from 1000s of years

445
00:20:10.200 --> 00:20:10.500
ago.

446
00:20:10.740 --> 00:20:13.859
Had a fear, not sufficiently executed enough.

447
00:20:13.980 --> 00:20:16.259
The master in the...

448
00:20:16.380 --> 00:20:18.180
Yeah, mastering the deadly assassin. absolutely.

449
00:20:18.240 --> 00:20:20.819
And so that is a very homes thing.

450
00:20:20.880 --> 00:20:24.059
And obviously tanks full of blanded, all of that. pretty much an

451
00:20:24.059 --> 00:20:27.480
island view of the ostensible threat, isn't it?

452
00:20:27.539 --> 00:20:30.720
We're clutching here on the edge of Europe and these things from

453
00:20:30.720 --> 00:20:32.940
Time Memorial, waiting.

454
00:20:33.000 --> 00:20:34.440
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

455
00:20:34.500 --> 00:20:39.960
But it is Robert Holmes because yes, even if the script was redone

456
00:20:39.960 --> 00:20:41.519
from the original concept.

457
00:20:41.579 --> 00:20:43.799
The original concept is created with Robert Holmes because

458
00:20:43.799 --> 00:20:45.779
remember, Robert Holmes doesn't end with talents being changed.

459
00:20:45.839 --> 00:20:47.460
He goes into halfway through season 15.

460
00:20:47.700 --> 00:20:48.180
That's right.

461
00:20:48.180 --> 00:20:51.119
Which has probably got more to do with Horror of Frank Rock's

462
00:20:51.119 --> 00:20:54.000
brilliance than the lack of Philip Shinsley before, the edition of

463
00:20:54.000 --> 00:20:54.539
Graham Williams.

464
00:20:54.599 --> 00:20:55.140
That's right.

465
00:20:55.259 --> 00:20:57.539
And so when people say that horror Fang Rock is a Philip

466
00:20:57.539 --> 00:20:58.799
Hinchcliffe story, what they really mean.

467
00:20:58.799 --> 00:21:00.240
It's a robot.

468
00:21:00.240 --> 00:21:04.019
It's just done with the sobriety that we associate with the

469
00:21:04.019 --> 00:21:05.940
Hinchcliffe era, not with the Williams era.

470
00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:09.059
We lose something of the elegance of the fact that Terence

471
00:21:09.059 --> 00:21:11.220
essentially did back-to-back stories.

472
00:21:11.279 --> 00:21:14.099
So once he'd finished the brain of Morbius, he then went on to do

473
00:21:14.099 --> 00:21:15.059
horror fang rock.

474
00:21:15.119 --> 00:21:19.859
The plundering of Frankenstein, for Brain of Morbius, and then the

475
00:21:19.859 --> 00:21:24.000
plundering of Dracula, straight after for the vampire mutations

476
00:21:24.000 --> 00:21:25.920
which was going to be opening season 15.

477
00:21:26.220 --> 00:21:29.400
The elegance of that is lost on us because vampire mutations was

478
00:21:29.400 --> 00:21:31.859
moved, and Brain of Morbius is under someone else's name.

479
00:21:31.920 --> 00:21:32.579
Yeah, yeah.

480
00:21:32.579 --> 00:21:37.019
Well, I actually think it probably benefits from the gap because I

481
00:21:37.019 --> 00:21:39.660
think it would have felt like, oh, this is just another one of

482
00:21:39.660 --> 00:21:39.839
that.

483
00:21:39.900 --> 00:21:40.680
This is more of the same.

484
00:21:40.740 --> 00:21:42.480
I mean, that is the Hinchcliffe.

485
00:21:42.539 --> 00:21:44.099
Yeah, that's how I feel about that.

486
00:21:44.099 --> 00:21:47.220
No, but not in quite the same way. so obvious.

487
00:21:47.279 --> 00:21:49.619
I mean, Terrace would have had a good chortle about that, I

488
00:21:49.619 --> 00:21:49.920
think.

489
00:21:49.980 --> 00:21:51.960
Frankenstein, let's do Dracula.

490
00:21:52.019 --> 00:21:52.740
What's next?

491
00:21:52.799 --> 00:21:53.460
Zombies.

492
00:21:53.579 --> 00:21:55.799
I mean, it would have had a season and a half, I suppose, in

493
00:21:55.799 --> 00:21:56.279
between.

494
00:22:03.180 --> 00:22:06.539
The other thing that's very Terence, I think, is the introduction

495
00:22:06.539 --> 00:22:09.480
of the Time Lord, and we talked...

496
00:22:09.480 --> 00:22:10.440
Never misses a beat, does it?

497
00:22:10.500 --> 00:22:14.940
Yeah, well, we've talked in our 1st episode.

498
00:22:17.400 --> 00:22:21.599
We talk about how Terrence invents the time lords and kind of

499
00:22:21.599 --> 00:22:25.500
inflicts them on the Barry Letts era in a way.

500
00:22:25.559 --> 00:22:32.400
He sets them up and creates them and then uses them judiciously as

501
00:22:32.400 --> 00:22:33.599
his era goes on.

502
00:22:33.660 --> 00:22:39.900
And here he is bringing them back as an idea again, and they are

503
00:22:39.900 --> 00:22:41.400
in a way central to this.

504
00:22:41.460 --> 00:22:45.900
And what struck me this time is, you know, the time lords are

505
00:22:45.900 --> 00:22:48.720
lords, and these people are from earth.

506
00:22:48.779 --> 00:22:52.440
You know, there's something about the how inextricable Gallifrey

507
00:22:52.440 --> 00:22:54.660
and earth are from each other, and obviously it's because

508
00:22:54.660 --> 00:22:58.200
Gallifrey features in a television program that's mostly made on

509
00:22:58.200 --> 00:22:58.740
earth.

510
00:22:58.799 --> 00:23:04.079
But I think that that is a very Terence thing, and I think, unlike

511
00:23:04.079 --> 00:23:07.500
a lot of the times that the 80s goes back for the time lords.

512
00:23:07.559 --> 00:23:08.819
This is pretty successful.

513
00:23:08.880 --> 00:23:12.180
Yeah, because, I mean, no time loads are actually, you know, apart

514
00:23:12.180 --> 00:23:13.140
from the doctor in Romana.

515
00:23:13.200 --> 00:23:14.700
Time was made appear in the story.

516
00:23:14.759 --> 00:23:18.359
I mean, it's a set of scrolls or like it's in the ancient

517
00:23:18.359 --> 00:23:18.900
database.

518
00:23:18.960 --> 00:23:22.440
So the time lords are a backdrop rather than essential.

519
00:23:22.500 --> 00:23:24.059
It just provides that line.

520
00:23:24.119 --> 00:23:26.640
You know, you have to defeat them even at the cost of your own

521
00:23:26.640 --> 00:23:26.880
life.

522
00:23:26.940 --> 00:23:30.240
Yeah, which actually almost makes it feel like it could have been

523
00:23:30.240 --> 00:23:32.279
a regeneration story. wanted it to be.

524
00:23:32.339 --> 00:23:34.019
It could have been a great regeneration story actually.

525
00:23:34.079 --> 00:23:37.019
And Terence never strays from the idea that Time Lords are

526
00:23:37.019 --> 00:23:37.799
mythical figures.

527
00:23:37.859 --> 00:23:40.619
So it sets them up as such in the war games.

528
00:23:40.920 --> 00:23:45.000
They are realised to varying degrees in the per wheat era, but he

529
00:23:45.000 --> 00:23:48.359
never goes away from the fact that they are kind of these superior

530
00:23:48.359 --> 00:23:51.119
beings that occasionally appear and a part of the action.

531
00:23:51.180 --> 00:23:53.579
I think that's the same with this backstory.

532
00:23:53.640 --> 00:23:56.940
He set up this mythic battle between the time Lords and the great

533
00:23:56.940 --> 00:23:57.539
vampires.

534
00:23:57.599 --> 00:23:58.859
And that's almost time war-ish.

535
00:23:58.980 --> 00:24:01.740
You know, that's something that was huge that no one knew about

536
00:24:01.740 --> 00:24:04.200
that happened in the background aeons go.

537
00:24:04.259 --> 00:24:08.160
I think that view of the time lords. actually works for the

538
00:24:08.160 --> 00:24:08.579
series.

539
00:24:08.640 --> 00:24:11.759
I also think Robert Holmes view of the time lords in the deadly

540
00:24:11.759 --> 00:24:15.000
assassin, which is then carried on in the invasion of time, works

541
00:24:15.000 --> 00:24:15.779
for the series.

542
00:24:15.839 --> 00:24:20.339
I think when you remove those 2 master craftsmen from the time

543
00:24:20.339 --> 00:24:24.660
lords, you end up getting rough. like mark of Infinity care.

544
00:24:24.720 --> 00:24:28.440
I think everyone's in trial of a time. harsh on Ark Infinity.

545
00:24:28.500 --> 00:24:29.579
I think it's trial of the Time Lord.

546
00:24:29.640 --> 00:24:31.559
But Arc Infinity, yes, I do agree.

547
00:24:31.619 --> 00:24:35.039
It's not as bad as all that, but what it does with the time lords

548
00:24:35.039 --> 00:24:35.940
is basically nothing.

549
00:24:36.000 --> 00:24:38.759
It uses trappings, but has nothing to say about.

550
00:24:38.819 --> 00:24:40.619
You're quite correct, but I actually think most of the problem

551
00:24:40.619 --> 00:24:41.400
with the time loss.

552
00:24:41.460 --> 00:24:43.799
Yeah, is travel time, but also the 21st century.

553
00:24:43.859 --> 00:24:46.859
I think, you know, Gallifrey should have stayed destroyed in so

554
00:24:46.859 --> 00:24:47.220
many ways.

555
00:24:47.279 --> 00:24:49.440
But that's an argument for another thing.

556
00:24:49.500 --> 00:24:51.660
I think that you've hit the nail on the head there.

557
00:24:51.720 --> 00:24:55.859
I think that Terrence Sticks is around when Holmes recreates the

558
00:24:55.859 --> 00:24:59.339
time lords and Holmes recreates the time lords in order to give

559
00:24:59.339 --> 00:25:03.960
the doctor something to rebel against in a way, which is not

560
00:25:03.960 --> 00:25:05.880
Bernard Horsfall previously.

561
00:25:05.940 --> 00:25:07.200
You know, yeah.

562
00:25:07.200 --> 00:25:08.279
Not the 1st burnet horse.

563
00:25:08.279 --> 00:25:09.119
The other burnet, right?

564
00:25:09.180 --> 00:25:13.019
They're always regenerating into the same British character actors

565
00:25:13.019 --> 00:25:14.400
I'll say, time lords. amazing.

566
00:25:14.460 --> 00:25:15.299
There are only so many.

567
00:25:15.359 --> 00:25:17.160
They've given that a choice.

568
00:25:17.220 --> 00:25:18.119
No, that one's too old.

569
00:25:18.599 --> 00:25:21.059
I'll have a Bernard, please.

570
00:25:21.119 --> 00:25:22.019
Is that all right?

571
00:25:22.200 --> 00:25:27.240
So Terence takes the time lords back to the mythical era that

572
00:25:27.240 --> 00:25:30.180
Holmes's time lords are only dimly aware of.

573
00:25:30.240 --> 00:25:34.259
The doctor and Umana don't know about the vampires, and I assume

574
00:25:34.259 --> 00:25:37.200
that Holmes's timelords don't know about it either.

575
00:25:37.259 --> 00:25:41.640
It's the story told by the hermit in the mountains of South Gala

576
00:25:41.640 --> 00:25:41.880
right?

577
00:25:42.119 --> 00:25:43.740
That rubbish.

578
00:25:43.799 --> 00:25:44.940
Yes, brought that back.

579
00:25:45.000 --> 00:25:46.440
I love that he goes back.

580
00:25:46.500 --> 00:25:47.279
Oh the Hermit on the Mountain.

581
00:25:47.339 --> 00:25:48.000
Yes, yeah, yeah.

582
00:25:48.059 --> 00:25:50.700
But the thing that I do like, that Pythia era, which is from

583
00:25:50.700 --> 00:25:52.980
Timeworm something.

584
00:25:53.039 --> 00:25:54.960
No, not time of anything.

585
00:25:55.019 --> 00:25:56.279
Cat's cradle time.

586
00:25:56.279 --> 00:25:56.940
Cat's cradle.

587
00:25:57.000 --> 00:25:57.480
There we go.

588
00:25:57.539 --> 00:25:58.559
Time's crucible, exactly.

589
00:25:58.619 --> 00:26:01.079
Then long barrow, any and all, frankly.

590
00:26:01.140 --> 00:26:03.779
Infinity doctors, like all of those things.

591
00:26:03.779 --> 00:26:05.400
The word tiresome comes to mind.

592
00:26:05.460 --> 00:26:10.799
Yeah, but, but, but there is something about that sort of grand

593
00:26:10.799 --> 00:26:15.539
absurd histrionic space opera that the Time Lords used to belong

594
00:26:15.539 --> 00:26:15.839
to.

595
00:26:15.900 --> 00:26:21.420
And I can see why, because it's sort of well executed and kind of

596
00:26:21.420 --> 00:26:22.500
intriguing.

597
00:26:22.559 --> 00:26:25.559
I can see why writers have said yes, you know, I would quite like

598
00:26:25.559 --> 00:26:27.359
to see a bit more of this.

599
00:26:27.420 --> 00:26:31.619
I don't think anyone's ever watched Arc of Infinity and said, we

600
00:26:31.619 --> 00:26:33.299
need to see more of these versions.

601
00:26:33.660 --> 00:26:34.079
Califrade.

602
00:26:34.140 --> 00:26:35.039
Well executed.

603
00:26:35.099 --> 00:26:38.279
It's well executed because it's Terence.

604
00:26:38.339 --> 00:26:39.599
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

605
00:26:39.720 --> 00:26:43.380
It's just very well judged and it doesn't contradict anything that

606
00:26:43.380 --> 00:26:44.759
we've seen before.

607
00:26:45.180 --> 00:26:46.559
It adds a little bit of mythology.

608
00:26:46.619 --> 00:26:50.700
We had the minions being the reason that the time lords didn't

609
00:26:50.700 --> 00:26:54.299
intervene back in underworld, but here it's established it was

610
00:26:54.299 --> 00:26:58.980
this, that sickened the time lords of violence and caused them to

611
00:26:58.980 --> 00:27:01.259
stop intervening. this sort of giant war.

612
00:27:01.319 --> 00:27:03.119
Yeah, it's a time war, isn't it?

613
00:27:03.180 --> 00:27:05.700
It's the 1st round of the time war or the 1st go at it.

614
00:27:05.759 --> 00:27:06.480
Absolutely.

615
00:27:06.539 --> 00:27:10.619
And also, we see in lesser hands how something like that can be so

616
00:27:10.619 --> 00:27:12.059
boring in underworld.

617
00:27:12.119 --> 00:27:16.019
That's a really great setup, which isn't explored remotely in that

618
00:27:16.019 --> 00:27:16.319
story.

619
00:27:16.380 --> 00:27:18.900
Whereas Terrence loves bringing in the time watch for a little bit

620
00:27:18.900 --> 00:27:19.380
of colour.

621
00:27:19.380 --> 00:27:22.740
So those 1st scenes in Brain of Morbius, which I'm absolutely

622
00:27:22.740 --> 00:27:26.579
certain are Terrence and not Bob Holmes, where the doctor is

623
00:27:26.579 --> 00:27:29.220
railing against them and Sarah's mocking him for it.

624
00:27:29.279 --> 00:27:30.599
That's vintage Terrence.

625
00:27:30.660 --> 00:27:31.319
Yeah, yeah.

626
00:27:31.380 --> 00:27:35.579
Yeah, it's something that Pertwe, you can imagine Pertwe doing.

627
00:27:35.640 --> 00:27:39.059
And it's something which they do for better or for worse than

628
00:27:39.059 --> 00:27:43.200
Attack of the Cybermen, when the doctor is locked in the cold room

629
00:27:43.259 --> 00:27:45.420
that's right You can't lure me to this message, so that I can get

630
00:27:45.420 --> 00:27:45.839
you out.

631
00:27:45.900 --> 00:27:47.819
That's right. that's one of the best moments of that story when

632
00:27:47.819 --> 00:27:50.640
the doctor suddenly realised that, you know, maybe the timelords

633
00:27:50.640 --> 00:27:51.119
are doing something.

634
00:27:51.180 --> 00:27:53.759
Oh, I'm the one who's been put in place to do something about it.

635
00:27:53.819 --> 00:27:54.539
Yes, yes.

636
00:27:54.539 --> 00:27:57.660
I suppose what I don't like about that part of the time, Lords, is

637
00:27:57.660 --> 00:28:00.420
I was never a fan, and maybe it's just to do with the order that I

638
00:28:00.420 --> 00:28:03.960
saw things in, is that I was never a fan of the supernatural

639
00:28:03.960 --> 00:28:05.339
version of the time, Lords.

640
00:28:05.400 --> 00:28:07.980
I probably did prefer the House of Lords version of the Time Lords

641
00:28:07.980 --> 00:28:11.220
which is sort of what you get in Deadly Assassin. and Arc of

642
00:28:11.220 --> 00:28:11.940
Infinity, basically.

643
00:28:12.000 --> 00:28:14.819
Because they're amusing, which they're not amusing when they're

644
00:28:14.819 --> 00:28:15.059
gods.

645
00:28:15.119 --> 00:28:15.960
Exactly.

646
00:28:16.019 --> 00:28:19.500
They become, it's like, um, it's interesting that Hebrus says to

647
00:28:19.500 --> 00:28:21.299
the 3 who rule.

648
00:28:21.359 --> 00:28:22.859
I could swear that they were laws.

649
00:28:22.980 --> 00:28:24.119
They were lords, yeah, yeah.

650
00:28:24.180 --> 00:28:25.079
Because they are lords.

651
00:28:25.140 --> 00:28:25.859
They are time laws.

652
00:28:25.920 --> 00:28:26.880
We are your lords.

653
00:28:27.900 --> 00:28:29.640
Yes, exactly.

654
00:28:29.700 --> 00:28:31.440
And now, but it...

655
00:28:31.440 --> 00:28:33.000
She knows that's one of Surfland's commanders.

656
00:28:33.059 --> 00:28:33.720
Is he really?

657
00:28:33.720 --> 00:28:34.380
Yes.

658
00:28:34.380 --> 00:28:35.519
I'm glad he got other words.

659
00:28:36.480 --> 00:28:38.579
They don't tend to go on.

660
00:28:39.599 --> 00:28:44.519
But there is something about the concept, I think, goes back to

661
00:28:44.519 --> 00:28:46.740
what you were saying, Nathan, before about, you know, Earth is the

662
00:28:46.740 --> 00:28:50.279
common people and the time lords are our laws as much as anything

663
00:28:50.279 --> 00:28:50.700
else.

664
00:28:50.759 --> 00:28:53.819
And, you know, there is the stratification of society still back

665
00:28:53.819 --> 00:28:57.059
in this time, to a greater degree, and that's just sort of a

666
00:28:57.059 --> 00:28:59.700
natural way of seeing how things are.

667
00:28:59.759 --> 00:29:03.119
But the fact that what sets them apart is probably not just the

668
00:29:03.119 --> 00:29:05.940
way they speak, but how they're dressed, but also their

669
00:29:05.940 --> 00:29:06.539
knowledge.

670
00:29:06.539 --> 00:29:10.740
And as we said before, if learning is forbidden, the only people

671
00:29:10.740 --> 00:29:13.559
who are allowed to have knowledge are the lords, therefore these

672
00:29:13.559 --> 00:29:15.299
people are knowledgable, therefore these people are lords.

673
00:29:15.420 --> 00:29:18.779
Yeah, in fact, that's explicitly said when the doctor and run are

674
00:29:18.779 --> 00:29:19.500
escaped from the throne room.

675
00:29:19.559 --> 00:29:23.460
And Camilla says they have the greatest weapon of all knowledge.

676
00:29:23.519 --> 00:29:24.720
And that's wonderful.

677
00:29:24.779 --> 00:29:27.599
And that is the moral of Doctor Who.

678
00:29:27.720 --> 00:29:31.259
Basically, that is fundamentally the entire series is summarised

679
00:29:31.259 --> 00:29:32.519
in that one little moment.

680
00:29:32.579 --> 00:29:36.900
Terrence always goes back to the Reetian polemics, doesn't he?

681
00:29:36.960 --> 00:29:40.319
He's really an old school empire boy at heart.

682
00:29:40.380 --> 00:29:44.039
But then there's a little bit of wit. listening to you all talking

683
00:29:44.039 --> 00:29:46.079
about this and having lovely flashbacks.

684
00:29:46.140 --> 00:29:50.519
We talked on robot about how structural it was and that we felt

685
00:29:50.519 --> 00:29:54.420
that at this point in his career, Terence was firstly a

686
00:29:54.420 --> 00:29:55.200
structuralist.

687
00:29:55.319 --> 00:29:59.519
Albeit, as you say, characters come out of the wainscotting

688
00:29:59.519 --> 00:29:59.940
afterwards.

689
00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:02.940
Well, no, they don't because he's brilliant, but structure before

690
00:30:02.940 --> 00:30:08.940
all of that other fun, where homes, maybe, I think homes is there

691
00:30:08.940 --> 00:30:10.079
for the dry crack.

692
00:30:10.140 --> 00:30:10.799
Yeah.

693
00:30:10.799 --> 00:30:12.839
Firstly, and having a dig.

694
00:30:12.900 --> 00:30:15.660
But in this one, I want to know what you think, because it still

695
00:30:15.660 --> 00:30:18.480
feels very structural to me, but he's starting to be at that point

696
00:30:18.480 --> 00:30:19.619
in his career.

697
00:30:19.619 --> 00:30:21.779
As you do and you get to a certain age, I'm right here.

698
00:30:21.839 --> 00:30:25.019
Where you're looking back at what gave you joy, and there's that

699
00:30:25.019 --> 00:30:29.460
reinterpretation that, but still very respectful, and firstly and

700
00:30:29.460 --> 00:30:34.019
foremost, it's about, as you say, it's the plotting and the points

701
00:30:34.019 --> 00:30:35.940
and then letting the actors sing from that.

702
00:30:36.000 --> 00:30:38.519
Don't think it would have worked without Peter Moffat, though.

703
00:30:38.579 --> 00:30:41.940
Before we talk about Peter Moffat, let's think about where Terence

704
00:30:41.940 --> 00:30:45.720
was in his career, because he'd left behind obviously script

705
00:30:45.720 --> 00:30:48.660
editing Doctor Who, that would have given him a vast knowledge of

706
00:30:48.660 --> 00:30:50.880
how to structure a Doctor Who story properly.

707
00:30:50.940 --> 00:30:55.259
He's now become embedded in the series as a whole through all the

708
00:30:55.259 --> 00:30:56.700
novelisations that he's done.

709
00:30:56.759 --> 00:31:00.779
So he would have seen, and he, as a rule, tends to novelize four

710
00:31:00.299 --> 00:31:01.200
part stories.

711
00:31:01.259 --> 00:31:03.420
There are some 6 parters, he does 4 parters.

712
00:31:03.480 --> 00:31:05.519
People like Malcolm Hulk do their own 6 parts.

713
00:31:05.579 --> 00:31:09.299
So he has seen what everyone else has done with 4 partters.

714
00:31:09.359 --> 00:31:10.440
He knows how to structure them.

715
00:31:10.500 --> 00:31:14.220
He has now moved on to the classic series where he is the script

716
00:31:14.220 --> 00:31:17.700
editor to the Sunday classic to Barry Letts, who is the producer.

717
00:31:17.880 --> 00:31:21.180
So I think that gives him more of a freeform knowledge of kind of

718
00:31:21.180 --> 00:31:22.619
how drama comes together.

719
00:31:22.680 --> 00:31:26.220
He will eventually, in a couple of years time, take over as the

720
00:31:26.220 --> 00:31:28.980
producer of those Sunday classic dramas.

721
00:31:29.039 --> 00:31:32.880
And so I think if Terence is experimenting and letting go with

722
00:31:32.880 --> 00:31:35.279
that structure, that's just where he's at his career as well.

723
00:31:35.339 --> 00:31:38.819
It's also what's coming easiest, and I don't mean that implying

724
00:31:38.819 --> 00:31:41.339
that he's lazy, but it's the fact that when you do get to a

725
00:31:41.339 --> 00:31:43.440
certain age, you really do know what you're doing.

726
00:31:43.500 --> 00:31:47.039
If you've got that much experience, it just happens and you don't

727
00:31:47.039 --> 00:31:51.000
need to try too hard and often, it's when people try too hard that

728
00:31:51.000 --> 00:31:52.259
it's all about what?

729
00:31:52.380 --> 00:31:54.599
That's why often the scripts that have had to be written in a

730
00:31:54.599 --> 00:31:58.859
weekend turn out so well because you go to the obvious.

731
00:31:58.920 --> 00:32:01.319
If I can just go to structure and pacing before we talk about

732
00:32:01.319 --> 00:32:04.380
Peter Moffat, one of the reasons, I think the pert we year as a

733
00:32:04.380 --> 00:32:08.519
whole is successful, is because it understands, and I think this

734
00:32:08.519 --> 00:32:13.799
is a lot to do with Terrence, how you plot out a 4 or 6 part story

735
00:32:13.799 --> 00:32:18.059
too often in the what we've just come from in the Trouton era, the

736
00:32:18.059 --> 00:32:23.579
resolution happens in the last 10, 5, sometimes 3 minutes of even

737
00:32:23.579 --> 00:32:24.720
a 6 part story.

738
00:32:24.779 --> 00:32:28.380
That starts to happen again, sometimes in the cartinal era, I'm

739
00:32:28.380 --> 00:32:28.619
afraid.

740
00:32:28.680 --> 00:32:31.920
If you look at this story, state of decape, most of episode four

741
00:32:31.920 --> 00:32:34.619
not all of it, because if it's a 6 part, all of episode 6 was

742
00:32:34.619 --> 00:32:36.000
generally the resolution.

743
00:32:36.059 --> 00:32:39.000
The cliffhanger into the last episode was always about to be ready

744
00:32:39.000 --> 00:32:40.500
to...

745
00:32:40.559 --> 00:32:41.819
Green Death is the perfect example.

746
00:32:41.880 --> 00:32:45.420
And here you have a proper resolution where it's all planned out

747
00:32:45.420 --> 00:32:47.700
and things happen one after the other.

748
00:32:47.759 --> 00:32:53.940
So it is a 90 minute movie that has been chopped into 4 with a few

749
00:32:53.940 --> 00:32:56.640
allowances for the fact that they have to be cliffhangers and so

750
00:32:56.640 --> 00:32:57.119
on like that.

751
00:32:57.180 --> 00:33:00.539
But you don't get this sense of at the end of episode 3 that we're

752
00:33:00.539 --> 00:33:02.039
still, nothing is really progressed anywhere.

753
00:33:02.099 --> 00:33:06.240
No, I think what we've found so far is that in all of the stories

754
00:33:06.240 --> 00:33:10.079
new elements come in and propel the narrative on.

755
00:33:10.140 --> 00:33:16.500
And like, I mean, it is like the death of Orcon Camilla and Sarko

756
00:33:16.500 --> 00:33:19.559
is not quite at the end, but it's not in the middle or anything

757
00:33:19.559 --> 00:33:19.980
like that.

758
00:33:20.039 --> 00:33:24.180
But we do have time to just kind of tidy up.

759
00:33:24.240 --> 00:33:27.480
I'm not just talking about a de Nou More. the buildup to that

760
00:33:28.200 --> 00:33:28.980
about the resolution.

761
00:33:29.039 --> 00:33:31.920
The whole episode 4 is about the resolution and you get that so

762
00:33:31.920 --> 00:33:34.500
often in anything that Terrence is touched.

763
00:33:34.559 --> 00:33:40.079
And I think he retrofits that into many of those 12 chapter target

764
00:33:40.079 --> 00:33:43.500
novelisations that we loved reading over and over back in the day

765
00:33:43.559 --> 00:33:45.119
that he didn't write the original script for.

766
00:33:45.180 --> 00:33:45.900
Absolutely.

767
00:33:45.960 --> 00:33:48.839
And also, the fact that we'll talk more about this, but when we

768
00:33:48.839 --> 00:33:51.420
come to the 5 doctors, he's possibly the only person who could

769
00:33:51.420 --> 00:33:52.019
have made that work.

770
00:33:52.019 --> 00:33:53.220
Capable of doing that.

771
00:33:53.220 --> 00:33:54.420
Because of that approach.

772
00:33:54.480 --> 00:33:55.619
What do you need?

773
00:33:55.680 --> 00:33:57.660
Give me the small explorer of things, here you go.

774
00:33:57.720 --> 00:33:58.380
It's all in place.

775
00:34:08.519 --> 00:34:11.519
It's interesting you mentioned Peter Moffatt before.

776
00:34:11.639 --> 00:34:16.619
As I've frequently said, a good director is what makes or breaks

777
00:34:16.619 --> 00:34:19.019
or lack of good directors, what makes or breaks a Doctor Who story

778
00:34:19.019 --> 00:34:20.159
a classic era Doctor Who story.

779
00:34:20.219 --> 00:34:26.159
Peter Moffa is, I think, too often unfairly maligned, and I think

780
00:34:26.159 --> 00:34:28.739
it's basically for me, it's just because of twin dilemma.

781
00:34:28.800 --> 00:34:32.699
And I think if you take to a dilemma out of it, as a rule, all of

782
00:34:32.699 --> 00:34:36.119
his stories, even the less successful ones like visitation, which

783
00:34:36.119 --> 00:34:39.659
is a bit dull, have excellent casts.

784
00:34:39.719 --> 00:34:40.619
Yes.

785
00:34:40.619 --> 00:34:44.940
And Lala said that Peter Moffat was an actor's director because

786
00:34:44.940 --> 00:34:49.679
he's all about finding the right people for the part, allowing

787
00:34:49.679 --> 00:34:53.159
them to do their thing, modifying it as necessary in a way which

788
00:34:53.159 --> 00:34:56.280
is collaborative in the same way that the best theatre directors

789
00:34:56.280 --> 00:34:56.579
do.

790
00:34:56.579 --> 00:34:59.099
And that's what they were allowed to do with the acting rehearsal

791
00:34:59.099 --> 00:35:02.219
rooms and so on, they spent all this time to properly workshop the

792
00:35:02.219 --> 00:35:05.579
performances and that's where things like that choreographed dance

793
00:35:05.579 --> 00:35:07.860
between the 3 who rule would have been developed.

794
00:35:07.920 --> 00:35:08.820
I strongly suspect.

795
00:35:08.880 --> 00:35:12.659
And I suspect that stage of decay is actually Moffatt's best

796
00:35:12.659 --> 00:35:17.039
directorial outing, not just because of the choreograph scene, but

797
00:35:17.039 --> 00:35:19.800
I think just because of the way he was able to bring it all

798
00:35:19.800 --> 00:35:20.159
together.

799
00:35:20.219 --> 00:35:23.039
I think he's actually a very good director who's underrated.

800
00:35:23.099 --> 00:35:26.340
So, I mean, you've said to me before that Peter Mothad is by no

801
00:35:26.340 --> 00:35:27.059
means a bad director.

802
00:35:27.119 --> 00:35:28.260
He's a conservative director.

803
00:35:28.320 --> 00:35:30.000
And that is true.

804
00:35:30.059 --> 00:35:31.860
He covers the action conservatively.

805
00:35:31.920 --> 00:35:35.579
I would argue that in this story, he's being quite forthright with

806
00:35:35.579 --> 00:35:36.840
his camera work in a lot of ways.

807
00:35:36.900 --> 00:35:42.059
That wonderful moment where Orcon refers to his servants and we

808
00:35:42.059 --> 00:35:43.019
don't know who they are.

809
00:35:43.019 --> 00:35:47.639
And then you get the bat, which is so unusual.

810
00:35:47.699 --> 00:35:48.900
So, Doctor Who...

811
00:35:48.900 --> 00:35:49.739
Do you had a crossfay?

812
00:35:49.800 --> 00:35:50.760
any era, really.

813
00:35:50.820 --> 00:35:51.420
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

814
00:35:51.480 --> 00:35:53.699
And also, I would point to the end of episode two.

815
00:35:53.760 --> 00:35:56.219
It doesn't entirely work, but I appreciate what they were trying

816
00:35:56.219 --> 00:36:00.900
to do where Orcon says, welcome to my domain and it cuts into a

817
00:36:00.900 --> 00:36:04.440
big close-up in his eyes, which is taken from a later shot in

818
00:36:04.440 --> 00:36:05.099
episode three.

819
00:36:05.159 --> 00:36:07.079
But I see...

820
00:36:07.079 --> 00:36:08.820
That might be why it's missing from the reprise.

821
00:36:09.960 --> 00:36:14.099
Look, I think Peter Moffat, There's a couple of undersold things

822
00:36:14.099 --> 00:36:14.639
about him.

823
00:36:14.699 --> 00:36:17.579
He was quite old when he started working on the series.

824
00:36:17.639 --> 00:36:20.039
And so the 2 doctors ended up being the last thing he ever did.

825
00:36:20.099 --> 00:36:21.960
He basically came out of retirement to do that.

826
00:36:22.019 --> 00:36:25.679
So I think there is a natural thing of kind of slowing down a

827
00:36:25.679 --> 00:36:25.980
little bit.

828
00:36:26.039 --> 00:36:31.559
I also think that when Lala talks about him as an actor's director

829
00:36:31.559 --> 00:36:34.139
we've talked before about performances all being on different

830
00:36:34.139 --> 00:36:37.860
pages, all of the performances in many of the scripts that he

831
00:36:37.860 --> 00:36:39.420
directs are all on the same page.

832
00:36:39.480 --> 00:36:42.780
And if you look at it through that lens, that actually makes him

833
00:36:42.780 --> 00:36:45.300
the perfect director for the 5 doctors.

834
00:36:45.360 --> 00:36:49.500
Maybe not as a spectacle, but as someone who could sort of bring

835
00:36:49.500 --> 00:36:53.159
all of those big personalities together and have them gel on

836
00:36:53.159 --> 00:36:53.460
screen.

837
00:36:53.519 --> 00:36:56.039
I think the reason one of the reasons I think is a conservative

838
00:36:56.039 --> 00:36:58.500
director is, perhaps, because of the stage of decay experience

839
00:36:58.500 --> 00:37:02.639
because he did say that that last sequence with the special effect

840
00:37:02.639 --> 00:37:05.699
of the great one coming, the hand coming through the thing, he

841
00:37:05.699 --> 00:37:08.400
didn't know, as I think was common in the era.

842
00:37:08.460 --> 00:37:10.679
He didn't really know what the special effects people were going

843
00:37:10.679 --> 00:37:13.019
to give him until it was way too late to do anything about it.

844
00:37:13.079 --> 00:37:14.219
Well, he really liked that.

845
00:37:14.280 --> 00:37:15.719
He loved the hand coming through.

846
00:37:15.780 --> 00:37:17.099
Who was the puppet?

847
00:37:17.099 --> 00:37:19.079
Was the puppet and the rocket.

848
00:37:19.139 --> 00:37:23.039
Oh, right. what is clearly what's intended in the script is that

849
00:37:23.039 --> 00:37:24.539
the tower has 3 turrets.

850
00:37:24.599 --> 00:37:26.159
Yes, turret, silver one.

851
00:37:26.219 --> 00:37:27.719
Not that it actually splits in two.

852
00:37:27.780 --> 00:37:28.260
Yes.

853
00:37:28.320 --> 00:37:30.599
Well, no, but that's not the special effects because that's drawn

854
00:37:30.599 --> 00:37:31.619
by the designer.

855
00:37:31.679 --> 00:37:34.019
Dean Roscoe's original sketch is very much.

856
00:37:34.019 --> 00:37:35.099
It's her sketch is that.

857
00:37:35.159 --> 00:37:36.239
But he wouldn't have seen what the...

858
00:37:36.239 --> 00:37:37.739
Well, it's based on the series.

859
00:37:37.800 --> 00:37:40.739
Yeah, but no, what he was saying about the hand coming through.

860
00:37:40.800 --> 00:37:42.900
He actually thought, I think it's probably the chroma key shot of

861
00:37:42.900 --> 00:37:46.260
the Lord's backs, and you see that the hand he was not happy with

862
00:37:46.260 --> 00:37:46.500
that.

863
00:37:46.559 --> 00:37:48.900
He said he would have rather if he knew what he was going to get

864
00:37:48.900 --> 00:37:50.820
he would rather have just had the crane shot.

865
00:37:50.880 --> 00:37:54.239
And so the camera goes up as the Lord's.

866
00:37:54.300 --> 00:37:57.539
With a shadow, as Nosferatu does in what, 2324?

867
00:37:57.599 --> 00:37:58.619
You just get the bat wing.

868
00:37:58.679 --> 00:37:59.639
That would have been mum.

869
00:37:59.699 --> 00:38:00.300
Exactly.

870
00:38:00.360 --> 00:38:02.699
And I kind of agree with him and I wonder whether that kind of

871
00:38:02.699 --> 00:38:05.639
informs him what he starts to do in later stories to make sure

872
00:38:05.639 --> 00:38:08.099
that that sort of era doesn't happen.

873
00:38:08.159 --> 00:38:12.300
Because there are very few poor effect shots in Peter Moffatt

874
00:38:12.300 --> 00:38:13.440
directed stories when you think about it.

875
00:38:13.500 --> 00:38:15.420
That's true because he tends to be conservative because he's

876
00:38:15.420 --> 00:38:17.159
conservative about what he needs to make sure that it looks

877
00:38:17.159 --> 00:38:18.059
convincing.

878
00:38:18.599 --> 00:38:23.820
I like how those miniatures are kind of directed the way that we

879
00:38:23.820 --> 00:38:26.579
get lighting, different lighting and different times of day and

880
00:38:26.579 --> 00:38:29.760
things for the for the miniatures, but they're not that great.

881
00:38:29.820 --> 00:38:32.219
They do look like a Hornby train set.

882
00:38:32.280 --> 00:38:34.199
Well, yeah, great music architects.

883
00:38:35.039 --> 00:38:36.059
Yes, yes, yes.

884
00:38:36.119 --> 00:38:38.039
Yes, you talked about the Lycan trees.

885
00:38:38.760 --> 00:38:41.159
But of course, the music helps them.

886
00:38:41.219 --> 00:38:43.679
Oh, that's bringing the production together.

887
00:38:43.739 --> 00:38:45.360
Yeah, you get that kind of refrain.

888
00:38:45.780 --> 00:38:47.400
Yeah, yeah. wonderful.

889
00:38:47.519 --> 00:38:50.519
And isn't it interesting that the music, even though we've now

890
00:38:50.519 --> 00:38:53.940
entered the radiophonic workshop era of incidental music, it still

891
00:38:53.940 --> 00:38:56.519
managed to have that imperious...

892
00:38:56.519 --> 00:38:59.760
It's got a lot of organ sound, yes, but it's electronically

893
00:38:59.760 --> 00:39:00.539
produced.

894
00:39:00.599 --> 00:39:01.019
Yes, of course.

895
00:39:01.079 --> 00:39:03.300
So it's not a 1000000 miles away from what Dudley was doing on

896
00:39:03.300 --> 00:39:04.559
something like the deadly assassin.

897
00:39:04.619 --> 00:39:05.579
No.

898
00:39:05.579 --> 00:39:07.380
Or Androids of Tara.

899
00:39:07.440 --> 00:39:11.219
I think there's a lack of critique in Doctor Who directing.

900
00:39:11.280 --> 00:39:14.400
A lot of people associate good Doctor Who direction with a fancy

901
00:39:14.400 --> 00:39:15.000
camera.

902
00:39:15.059 --> 00:39:16.860
Yes, yes, I do as well.

903
00:39:16.980 --> 00:39:18.539
Graham Harper. and you did very much.

904
00:39:18.599 --> 00:39:21.239
Yeah, you know, Donkey Canfield, Graham Harper, absolutely.

905
00:39:21.300 --> 00:39:22.619
I can make it look amazing.

906
00:39:22.679 --> 00:39:26.099
But what Moffat does a lot is choreography.

907
00:39:26.159 --> 00:39:28.619
He blocks things so well in scenes.

908
00:39:28.679 --> 00:39:31.679
And I would like to talk about, you referenced it before, Simon

909
00:39:31.679 --> 00:39:34.920
the scene in episode 2 where the doctor and Romana confront the 2

910
00:39:34.920 --> 00:39:36.119
villains for the 1st time.

911
00:39:36.179 --> 00:39:40.860
That is so beautifully mounted, that entire scene.

912
00:39:40.920 --> 00:39:44.699
Really, all it is is just kind of a lot of wide shots with the

913
00:39:44.699 --> 00:39:47.099
characters moving around within the frame and then the camera

914
00:39:47.099 --> 00:39:48.840
following them to 2 shots.

915
00:39:48.900 --> 00:39:53.760
In fact, there's a beautiful opening sweep, when Camilla and Zargo

916
00:39:53.760 --> 00:39:56.280
1st appear, and Romana's noticed them and points them out to the

917
00:39:56.280 --> 00:40:00.179
doctor, and it pulls out from 2 shot of both of them, to this

918
00:40:00.179 --> 00:40:04.800
tableau of the doctor and Romana posing Camilla and Zargo.

919
00:40:04.860 --> 00:40:07.920
And it's just an absolutely majestic way of telling that

920
00:40:07.920 --> 00:40:08.639
introduction.

921
00:40:08.699 --> 00:40:13.260
What Peter Moffat said was that obviously they'd come back from

922
00:40:13.260 --> 00:40:16.739
holidays with the leisure hive, Tom and Lala had broken up.

923
00:40:16.800 --> 00:40:18.659
They were on extremely bad terms.

924
00:40:18.719 --> 00:40:20.579
He said they were on shouting terms with each other.

925
00:40:20.639 --> 00:40:24.659
So on location, they would finish shots and then walk as far away

926
00:40:24.659 --> 00:40:25.679
from each other as possible.

927
00:40:25.739 --> 00:40:29.159
When they were doing rehearsals for the 1st block, they had what

928
00:40:29.159 --> 00:40:31.079
was called red corner and blue corner.

929
00:40:31.139 --> 00:40:33.900
And if you were having a red corner blue corner day when they were

930
00:40:33.900 --> 00:40:37.619
at opposite ends of the Acton rehearsal rooms, you knew, you know

931
00:40:37.619 --> 00:40:38.639
not to upset things.

932
00:40:38.699 --> 00:40:40.559
And so he told a story, actually.

933
00:40:40.619 --> 00:40:44.880
I mean, this is this is how Matthew Waterhouse arrived.

934
00:40:44.940 --> 00:40:48.000
That's right. the middle of this fraction is, you know, being told

935
00:40:48.000 --> 00:40:48.539
to...

936
00:40:48.659 --> 00:40:49.800
Because this is actually shot first, isn't it?

937
00:40:49.860 --> 00:40:51.840
In terms of before full circle is what I'm saying.

938
00:40:51.900 --> 00:40:52.920
That's right, Waterhouse.

939
00:40:52.980 --> 00:40:53.639
That's right.

940
00:40:53.699 --> 00:40:57.719
And so in the 1st block, things are out there, absolute worst

941
00:40:57.719 --> 00:40:59.280
between Tom and Lala.

942
00:40:59.340 --> 00:41:02.519
And the way that he got through to Tom to sort of get him on board

943
00:41:02.519 --> 00:41:06.480
and invest in the material was by saying in that scene with Zargo

944
00:41:06.480 --> 00:41:09.000
and Camilla, he said, we're going to choreograph it like a dance

945
00:41:09.000 --> 00:41:10.440
he said, it's going to be like the gavotte.

946
00:41:10.500 --> 00:41:13.800
And so he invested Tom in kind of getting all of this together and

947
00:41:13.800 --> 00:41:17.579
got Tom's mind off, kind of the fractiousness, and that's a good

948
00:41:17.579 --> 00:41:20.579
director at work getting that to happen.

949
00:41:20.639 --> 00:41:22.440
Tom was also very ill, wasn't he?

950
00:41:22.500 --> 00:41:25.199
You can really see that it's almost cadaverous that really...

951
00:41:25.199 --> 00:41:26.400
Warrior's Gate is his low point.

952
00:41:26.460 --> 00:41:30.239
I don't know what the illness had been, but I know it was fraught

953
00:41:30.239 --> 00:41:30.659
for him.

954
00:41:30.780 --> 00:41:33.480
They were having to perm his hair because it kept kind of...

955
00:41:33.539 --> 00:41:34.320
It kept falling out.

956
00:41:34.380 --> 00:41:37.860
There was some kind of metabolic disorder that hasn't been

957
00:41:37.860 --> 00:41:42.000
revealed what it is, but he ended up being able to deal with it

958
00:41:42.000 --> 00:41:46.440
and it's obviously still with us now. hopefully.

959
00:41:46.500 --> 00:41:49.380
But you know, going on from what we were saying there, that scene

960
00:41:49.380 --> 00:41:53.219
where the doctor and Romana climbed down the ladder, apparently

961
00:41:53.219 --> 00:41:56.760
Peter Moffatt was in the studio control room, and when they

962
00:41:56.760 --> 00:41:58.500
climbed down, he said through the PA.

963
00:41:58.559 --> 00:42:01.679
Oh, it would be nice if Tom helped Lala down, to which Tom turned

964
00:42:01.679 --> 00:42:03.300
around and said, why, should not a cripple?

965
00:42:03.360 --> 00:42:06.719
Ah, they've made statement, isn't it?

966
00:42:06.780 --> 00:42:08.159
This is all on the record.

967
00:42:08.219 --> 00:42:09.539
Yeah, it's all on the record.

968
00:42:09.599 --> 00:42:10.260
It's all into you.

969
00:42:10.320 --> 00:42:13.440
They then made up between the 1st 2 episodes and the 2nd 2

970
00:42:13.440 --> 00:42:15.239
episodes and got back together.

971
00:42:15.300 --> 00:42:20.039
And so you can tell in there's certain scenes where Tom will not

972
00:42:20.039 --> 00:42:21.000
look at Lala.

973
00:42:21.059 --> 00:42:25.139
Then there's scenes where he's absolutely lovey-dolvey with her.

974
00:42:25.199 --> 00:42:26.760
He can't stop looking at her.

975
00:42:26.820 --> 00:42:30.000
And so that, from whichever recording block it comes from.

976
00:42:30.059 --> 00:42:33.659
In the 2nd recording block, they go down further, so they're not

977
00:42:33.659 --> 00:42:34.440
just in the engine room.

978
00:42:34.500 --> 00:42:35.519
They're now in the caverns.

979
00:42:35.579 --> 00:42:38.519
Tom turns around and says, oh, wouldn't it be nice if I helped

980
00:42:38.519 --> 00:42:39.239
Lala down now?

981
00:42:39.300 --> 00:42:41.039
which Peter said, oh, what a good idea.

982
00:42:43.199 --> 00:42:45.719
It just goes back to the thing I was saying.

983
00:42:45.780 --> 00:42:49.980
A good director knows how to navigate all of these challenges to

984
00:42:49.980 --> 00:42:52.139
get his actors on board and make it work.

985
00:42:52.199 --> 00:42:56.760
I believe it's the line from an adventure in space and time where

986
00:42:56.760 --> 00:43:01.079
Sidney Newman helps verity out with dealing with a grumpy William

987
00:43:01.079 --> 00:43:01.739
Hartnell.

988
00:43:01.800 --> 00:43:05.340
And when Verity goes up and says, oh, thank you so much, Sydney.

989
00:43:05.400 --> 00:43:09.000
He just interrupts her and says, be a producer, find a way to deal

990
00:43:09.000 --> 00:43:09.659
with this stuff.

991
00:43:09.719 --> 00:43:11.280
And that's unfortunately part of the job.

992
00:43:11.340 --> 00:43:15.300
Ridiculously, it is, that these people can behave so appallingly.

993
00:43:18.360 --> 00:43:23.820
It's incredible just the number of speaking parts in this story.

994
00:43:23.880 --> 00:43:25.920
It's a pretty big cast, isn't it?

995
00:43:25.980 --> 00:43:29.880
I think you're just too used to watching New Doctor Who, where

996
00:43:29.880 --> 00:43:30.539
there's like three.

997
00:43:31.440 --> 00:43:33.360
It's a normal number.

998
00:43:33.420 --> 00:43:36.539
I mean, you've got the as Terence said earlier, you've got the

999
00:43:36.539 --> 00:43:36.900
right people.

1000
00:43:36.960 --> 00:43:38.519
You've got the innkeeper man and his wife.

1001
00:43:38.880 --> 00:43:40.860
But also their son.

1002
00:43:40.920 --> 00:43:41.940
And there's son.

1003
00:43:42.000 --> 00:43:44.699
Oh, yes, he's well, he's one of the kind of 2 line kind of

1004
00:43:44.699 --> 00:43:45.119
characters.

1005
00:43:45.179 --> 00:43:46.199
But you need a few of those.

1006
00:43:46.260 --> 00:43:48.360
That's why that's why we think it's a big couple of guards.

1007
00:43:48.420 --> 00:43:49.619
We've got Stuart Fowl.

1008
00:43:49.679 --> 00:43:50.639
We need some lines.

1009
00:43:50.699 --> 00:43:53.340
Of course, that's Terence's humour, where we've got those amazing

1010
00:43:53.340 --> 00:43:53.820
guards.

1011
00:43:53.880 --> 00:43:56.340
There's more than one guard who have kind of one scene and are

1012
00:43:56.340 --> 00:43:57.000
really funny in it.

1013
00:43:57.059 --> 00:44:00.780
So there's the one in which Lala takes the door key and he's like

1014
00:44:00.780 --> 00:44:01.800
wait, hang on. are you doing?

1015
00:44:03.480 --> 00:44:05.579
Wait, you're a rebel.

1016
00:44:05.639 --> 00:44:07.440
There's a garden in the...

1017
00:44:07.559 --> 00:44:09.360
There's a garden.

1018
00:44:09.360 --> 00:44:10.139
So well delivered.

1019
00:44:10.139 --> 00:44:15.179
Where he's just listening in, what the doctor and Martin...

1020
00:44:15.239 --> 00:44:19.260
It's the things that we think of, the things that we loved when we

1021
00:44:19.260 --> 00:44:20.760
were growing up with Doctor Who.

1022
00:44:21.000 --> 00:44:24.420
Yeah, particular to this kind of Terrence-ish Doctor Who.

1023
00:44:24.480 --> 00:44:31.079
Well, I just want, for no reason at all, to mention Orkon's line

1024
00:44:31.079 --> 00:44:35.219
where Heybra says to him, we'll be killed and he just goes, well

1025
00:44:35.219 --> 00:44:35.940
done.

1026
00:44:36.179 --> 00:44:42.119
That is the purpose of gods, which is so brilliant and so perfect

1027
00:44:42.119 --> 00:44:44.280
for that character.

1028
00:44:44.340 --> 00:44:47.460
But isn't it interesting, I think, Habris's reaction to that.

1029
00:44:47.519 --> 00:44:52.019
The way he looks and he's suddenly real, like, it's almost, what I

1030
00:44:52.019 --> 00:44:54.000
wanted to see was actually a guard's revolt from that point.

1031
00:44:54.059 --> 00:44:56.280
That's, I think, the scene that's missing.

1032
00:44:56.340 --> 00:44:59.460
I think he's hypnotised by Orcon.

1033
00:44:59.519 --> 00:45:01.380
Oh, interesting to walk on Zion.

1034
00:45:01.500 --> 00:45:02.219
Fascinating.

1035
00:45:02.280 --> 00:45:04.559
Maybe that's intention, but that's not my reading, but maybe

1036
00:45:04.559 --> 00:45:05.340
that's...

1037
00:45:05.340 --> 00:45:06.659
That would have been incredible, I think.

1038
00:45:06.719 --> 00:45:08.940
Because yes, because Allcon had hypnotised Adrik.

1039
00:45:09.000 --> 00:45:10.079
Yes, yeah. yeah.

1040
00:45:10.139 --> 00:45:10.440
Yeah.

1041
00:45:10.500 --> 00:45:13.019
They've been shielding their faces from Orcon and stuff earlier.

1042
00:45:13.079 --> 00:45:13.679
That's right, yes.

1043
00:45:14.039 --> 00:45:14.699
Quite crazy, yes.

1044
00:45:14.760 --> 00:45:18.000
I also think too, we were talking earlier about how Terrence is

1045
00:45:18.000 --> 00:45:21.840
steeped in Doctor Who, and you mention all of those abstract nouns

1046
00:45:21.840 --> 00:45:24.059
that...

1047
00:45:24.119 --> 00:45:27.539
Yeah, yeah, yeah. these rareified abstractions.

1048
00:45:27.659 --> 00:45:31.019
And I think that that's an interesting thing here too.

1049
00:45:31.079 --> 00:45:36.000
This is a setting taken out of classic Doctor Who in all sorts of

1050
00:45:36.000 --> 00:45:36.420
ways.

1051
00:45:36.480 --> 00:45:39.179
And you know, this is not our 1st great one.

1052
00:45:40.139 --> 00:45:46.139
All the 1st chosen one. not the 1st selection is at the 1st

1053
00:45:46.139 --> 00:45:48.539
arising, you know, like all of those things.

1054
00:45:48.599 --> 00:45:54.119
So these villains are not just from Galifrayan history, but in a

1055
00:45:54.119 --> 00:45:57.599
real sense they're from Doctor Who history, they're steeped in the

1056
00:45:57.599 --> 00:46:00.539
traditions of Doctor Who, every bit as much as Terrence is, I

1057
00:46:00.539 --> 00:46:03.239
think. steeped in the 70s traditions of Dr. Mid. because that

1058
00:46:03.239 --> 00:46:06.420
didn't really exist in the heart and trout in the area. also in

1059
00:46:06.420 --> 00:46:07.440
the traditions of folklore.

1060
00:46:07.500 --> 00:46:09.719
Which is what the story draws it on so much.

1061
00:46:09.780 --> 00:46:12.000
I mean, we talk about the brothers grim earlier.

1062
00:46:12.059 --> 00:46:14.699
And, you know, the laws of consonantal shift.

1063
00:46:14.760 --> 00:46:16.679
I always want to say continental.

1064
00:46:16.739 --> 00:46:18.480
There's always a continental shift.

1065
00:46:18.539 --> 00:46:22.019
Of course, that was Bidmade. brought that to the story. and as a

1066
00:46:22.019 --> 00:46:23.460
10 year old watching this story.

1067
00:46:23.519 --> 00:46:24.420
I loved that stuff.

1068
00:46:24.480 --> 00:46:29.159
There wasn't any other avenue on television or in popular fiction

1069
00:46:29.159 --> 00:46:31.920
for me to learn that stuff and I loved it.

1070
00:46:31.980 --> 00:46:36.539
And I think if you were to talk about the Brothers Grim, who not

1071
00:46:36.539 --> 00:46:39.719
only were linguists, but were sort of master storytellers and

1072
00:46:39.719 --> 00:46:43.980
bring us together of collections of folklore, who does that remind

1073
00:46:43.980 --> 00:46:45.599
you of in the Doctor Who Pantheon?

1074
00:46:45.659 --> 00:46:47.940
Yeah, yeah, it's Terrence.

1075
00:46:48.000 --> 00:46:50.400
But, I mean, the brothers Grima, the forest.

1076
00:46:50.460 --> 00:46:51.300
You know what I mean?

1077
00:46:51.360 --> 00:46:55.260
The village and the forest and the sun and the chosen one, the

1078
00:46:55.260 --> 00:46:58.739
castle, the monsters, like that's that stuff.

1079
00:46:58.800 --> 00:47:02.579
And so the mentioning of the brothers Grim can't be an accident.

1080
00:47:02.639 --> 00:47:05.760
It has to be something to remind us of them.

1081
00:47:05.820 --> 00:47:06.780
That's right.

1082
00:47:06.840 --> 00:47:09.000
And if it's coming from Bidmead, that indicates that the

1083
00:47:09.000 --> 00:47:12.900
discussions between Terence and Bidmead were all together on a

1084
00:47:12.900 --> 00:47:13.920
sympathetic level.

1085
00:47:13.980 --> 00:47:14.280
Yeah.

1086
00:47:20.340 --> 00:47:24.420
And Robert Smith is the eyeliner consultant for this one.

1087
00:47:26.460 --> 00:47:29.159
I just keep wanting to hear prog rock.

1088
00:47:29.219 --> 00:47:33.119
The reason it stays with us, yes, it's a vampire story.

1089
00:47:33.239 --> 00:47:35.400
Christine Roscoe and Amy's costumes.

1090
00:47:35.460 --> 00:47:37.440
Everything's deep burgundy velvet.

1091
00:47:37.500 --> 00:47:40.860
Very beautiful, actually, when you look at the tones going through

1092
00:47:40.920 --> 00:47:43.320
that everything is cohesive.

1093
00:47:43.380 --> 00:47:45.780
And that's pretty impressive as something made so quickly.

1094
00:47:45.840 --> 00:47:49.679
I think that's what Moffat was saying about the script changing.

1095
00:47:49.739 --> 00:47:51.840
Yes, I think there was probably a whole lot of scientific

1096
00:47:51.840 --> 00:47:55.380
underpinning brought to the script by Bidmead in his rewrite, but

1097
00:47:55.380 --> 00:47:58.380
what he really changed, which Moffat didn't want changed was the

1098
00:47:58.380 --> 00:47:59.039
aesthetic.

1099
00:47:59.099 --> 00:48:03.179
And so I think we would have lost that kind of lords in a castle

1100
00:48:03.179 --> 00:48:07.320
in tunics and those deep crimsons and those walls, which look like

1101
00:48:07.320 --> 00:48:10.739
they could be a spaceship, but also look like a tower.

1102
00:48:10.800 --> 00:48:11.940
I think we would have lost a lot.

1103
00:48:12.059 --> 00:48:13.619
It may have been more like underworld, basically.

1104
00:48:13.679 --> 00:48:14.760
Correct. what you're saying.

1105
00:48:14.820 --> 00:48:18.900
I love, though, the, and again, it comes back to the discovering

1106
00:48:18.900 --> 00:48:22.920
things bit by bit by bit, is, you know, when the doctor and Romana

1107
00:48:22.920 --> 00:48:26.219
are in the throne room for the 1st time, and I don't know what the

1108
00:48:26.219 --> 00:48:28.199
lead in is, like, you know, what you think about the windows.

1109
00:48:28.260 --> 00:48:30.239
What do you think about the windows, hot windows?

1110
00:48:30.300 --> 00:48:34.260
And then can I just say, as soon as the guard leads, Tom just

1111
00:48:34.260 --> 00:48:35.880
looks around and says, funny about the windows.

1112
00:48:36.000 --> 00:48:37.019
Rana says, what windows?

1113
00:48:37.079 --> 00:48:39.119
He says, yes, and then there's the general architecture.

1114
00:48:39.179 --> 00:48:42.360
Just an amazing piece of doctor who died.

1115
00:48:42.420 --> 00:48:44.159
And the Rococo. it's like Rococo.

1116
00:48:44.219 --> 00:48:44.519
Not really.

1117
00:48:44.880 --> 00:48:50.099
It's just, but it's also the brilliant Tom Lala dynamic or the Dr

1118
00:48:50.099 --> 00:48:50.880
Romana dynamic.

1119
00:48:50.940 --> 00:48:52.800
Who knows whether this was a good day or a bad day for them.

1120
00:48:52.860 --> 00:48:56.519
But maybe actually, I wonder whether it was a bad day because the

1121
00:48:56.519 --> 00:48:59.460
way they're kind of talking away from each other makes the scene

1122
00:48:59.460 --> 00:48:59.820
work.

1123
00:48:59.880 --> 00:49:03.300
And it's like that moment, the beginning of Destiny of the Daleks

1124
00:49:03.300 --> 00:49:04.860
where they're kind of having different conversations at the same

1125
00:49:04.860 --> 00:49:05.340
time.

1126
00:49:05.400 --> 00:49:10.860
But it's what I think is missing about some latter-day companions

1127
00:49:10.860 --> 00:49:12.179
and too many companions.

1128
00:49:12.239 --> 00:49:16.199
You know, I really love the fact that Romana was a time lady who

1129
00:49:16.199 --> 00:49:19.679
was on a different level who was able to meet the doctor's

1130
00:49:19.679 --> 00:49:22.800
intellect because it enables you to have sequences like that.

1131
00:49:22.860 --> 00:49:23.699
Yeah, wonderful.

1132
00:49:23.699 --> 00:49:25.800
Basically, it's how city of death works so brilliantly as well.

1133
00:49:25.860 --> 00:49:28.019
Yeah, in many ways, she's a little bit dismissive of what the

1134
00:49:28.019 --> 00:49:28.800
doctor says sometimes.

1135
00:49:28.860 --> 00:49:30.420
Exactly. that's brilliant.

1136
00:49:30.480 --> 00:49:34.139
Terrence and Mac Hulk did write for the Avengers, and I do

1137
00:49:34.139 --> 00:49:36.780
remember somewhere, you might remember Peter saying that that

1138
00:49:36.780 --> 00:49:42.119
pitch of the Diana Regan Pat McNee together purloining the events

1139
00:49:42.119 --> 00:49:44.460
before they happen and dissing them a little bit and playing with

1140
00:49:44.460 --> 00:49:46.739
them is exactly what we see, especially in City of Death.

1141
00:49:46.739 --> 00:49:49.019
It's very Avengers script model.

1142
00:49:49.139 --> 00:49:51.900
So that could well have been a deliberate thing.

1143
00:49:52.019 --> 00:49:56.519
And more on that is that it's the way moments of comedy are placed

1144
00:49:56.519 --> 00:49:59.699
not just in this, but in other Terrence scripts, and not just ones

1145
00:49:59.699 --> 00:50:01.800
he's written, ones he's touched, basically, a script editor and

1146
00:50:01.800 --> 00:50:02.219
anything else.

1147
00:50:02.280 --> 00:50:05.940
And he actually said that it's fatal to write a comedy, but it's

1148
00:50:05.940 --> 00:50:07.260
okay to have comic moments.

1149
00:50:07.320 --> 00:50:10.320
And I think that's the thing that makes it proper doctor.

1150
00:50:10.380 --> 00:50:12.780
You've got to have the light in comic moments, but their moments.

1151
00:50:12.840 --> 00:50:16.260
They're not the kind of the raison d'etre for the sequence or the

1152
00:50:16.260 --> 00:50:16.380
story.

1153
00:50:16.500 --> 00:50:20.880
I mean, I think that you identified that, Peter, in the war games

1154
00:50:20.880 --> 00:50:24.780
as a thing that Terrence was bringing to it was making the doctor

1155
00:50:24.780 --> 00:50:30.119
and his friends, I think, funny, making them fun people to be

1156
00:50:30.119 --> 00:50:30.539
around.

1157
00:50:30.599 --> 00:50:32.880
Not that they're cracking hilarious jokes.

1158
00:50:34.199 --> 00:50:36.360
No, no, but they're just kind of fun and funny.

1159
00:50:36.420 --> 00:50:39.059
And clever and banterous.

1160
00:50:39.179 --> 00:50:39.599
Clever.

1161
00:50:39.659 --> 00:50:40.019
Exactly.

1162
00:50:40.019 --> 00:50:40.500
Clever.

1163
00:50:40.619 --> 00:50:43.079
The way of mounting these things, well, we talk about that scene

1164
00:50:43.079 --> 00:50:46.199
in episode 3 where the doctor's talking about the hermit halfway

1165
00:50:46.199 --> 00:50:49.199
up the mountain, you get a lot of exposition, which is done really

1166
00:50:49.199 --> 00:50:51.900
beautifully, which comes some nice backwards and forwards between

1167
00:50:51.900 --> 00:50:56.099
Romana and the doctor, then get a piece of action into cut with

1168
00:50:56.099 --> 00:51:00.599
Habris and the guard outside, you then get a masterful comic

1169
00:51:00.599 --> 00:51:04.440
punchline where he comes in through the door and slams the door on

1170
00:51:04.440 --> 00:51:06.900
top, whose bit kind of dazzled behind him.

1171
00:51:06.960 --> 00:51:10.260
I mean, that's perfect, and it's funny, and it doesn't undermine

1172
00:51:10.260 --> 00:51:11.099
any of the drama.

1173
00:51:11.159 --> 00:51:14.340
Five minutes later, when they go to, you know, they're going into

1174
00:51:14.340 --> 00:51:15.239
the villain's den.

1175
00:51:15.300 --> 00:51:18.780
They're going into the sleeping vampires chamber and we have

1176
00:51:18.780 --> 00:51:19.380
that...

1177
00:51:19.380 --> 00:51:20.219
Wake up, wake up.

1178
00:51:20.280 --> 00:51:24.239
I mean, that is amazing, but the comedy scene before it where they

1179
00:51:24.239 --> 00:51:28.139
can't get in and so has to take the key and put it the wrong way

1180
00:51:28.139 --> 00:51:28.980
around in the lock.

1181
00:51:29.039 --> 00:51:32.820
I mean, that's just a beautiful intermeshing of comedy and drama.

1182
00:51:32.880 --> 00:51:34.440
And Terence is masterful at it.

1183
00:51:34.500 --> 00:51:39.059
The scene where Romana is frightened because we're down under the

1184
00:51:39.059 --> 00:51:43.139
ship and, you know, there's tanks full of blood and the doctor

1185
00:51:43.139 --> 00:51:47.880
says something about, we really want to find out who this is or we

1186
00:51:47.880 --> 00:51:48.480
really want.

1187
00:51:48.599 --> 00:51:50.460
And she just goes, no.

1188
00:51:50.820 --> 00:51:54.539
And of course, the moment where she's terribly scared and the

1189
00:51:54.539 --> 00:51:55.860
doctor yelps and she says, what?

1190
00:51:55.920 --> 00:51:56.219
What?

1191
00:51:56.280 --> 00:51:58.019
He says, you stood on my toe.

1192
00:51:58.079 --> 00:52:02.159
Which must have come from rehearsals, but is playing off that mode

1193
00:52:02.159 --> 00:52:05.639
of Doctor Who that has all of these things in perfect sense.

1194
00:52:28.139 --> 00:52:30.840
Well, that's all the time we have for this week.

1195
00:52:30.900 --> 00:52:35.280
We'll be back next week to gaze in wonder at how old everyone's

1196
00:52:35.280 --> 00:52:37.139
got, in the five doctors.

1197
00:52:37.380 --> 00:52:41.099
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts

1198
00:52:41.099 --> 00:52:44.880
and you can keep up with us on our website, 500yearDiary.com, where

1199
00:52:44.880 --> 00:52:48.119
you'll find our social media links, as well as links to all of our

1200
00:52:48.119 --> 00:52:52.559
other podcasts, including our other Doctor Who podcasts, Flight

1201
00:52:52.559 --> 00:52:56.039
Through Entirety, and the 2nd great and Bountiful Human Empire.

1202
00:52:56.880 --> 00:53:01.920
Until next time, remember that if Tom Baker asks you out on a date

1203
00:53:01.920 --> 00:53:05.519
the only sensible course of action is to run away.

1204
00:53:05.639 --> 00:53:07.619
Terribly fast.

1205
00:53:07.679 --> 00:53:10.139
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

1206
00:53:10.199 --> 00:53:10.980
Good night.

1207
00:53:11.039 --> 00:53:11.579
Bye bye.

1208
00:53:11.639 --> 00:53:12.239
Good then.

1209
00:53:22.679 --> 00:53:27.420
That was 500 year diary, starring Nathan Bottomley, Peter Griffith

1210
00:53:27.420 --> 00:53:28.980
Simon Moore, and Richard Stone.

1211
00:53:29.039 --> 00:53:31.619
The theme was composed by Cameron Lamb.

1212
00:53:31.679 --> 00:53:35.460
This episode, The East Wing of the Hydrax, was recorded on the 9th

1213
00:53:35.460 --> 00:53:38.880
of November 2025 and released on the 14th of December.

1214
00:53:42.900 --> 00:53:46.860
Our legal team have instructed me to say that the destruction of

1215
00:53:46.860 --> 00:53:50.820
the Lords in state of decay should not be regarded as normative in

1216
00:53:50.820 --> 00:53:53.519
our dealings with our current billionaire overlords.

1217
00:53:53.579 --> 00:53:58.199
FDE cannot be regarded as legally responsible if any member of its

1218
00:53:58.199 --> 00:54:01.860
audience decides to crash an escape pod into a member of the

1219
00:54:01.860 --> 00:54:03.780
Bloomberg billionaires index.

1220
00:54:07.559 --> 00:54:11.039
I'm looking around this room, and I'm astonished at how everyone's

1221
00:54:11.039 --> 00:54:12.000
gotten so old.

1222
00:54:12.599 --> 00:54:14.519
Silence, you.

1223
00:54:15.360 --> 00:54:23.760
Speak of yourself, Q. We'll start to crumble to dart. right.

1224
00:54:23.820 --> 00:54:25.019
Oh my god.

1225
00:54:25.079 --> 00:54:25.980
Oh my god.

1226
00:54:26.039 --> 00:54:27.179
All right. do you think?

1227
00:54:27.239 --> 00:54:27.840
Just one thing.

1228
00:54:27.900 --> 00:54:30.780
That's why I sort of never understood that thing that various

1229
00:54:30.780 --> 00:54:33.539
showrunners in different areas of the show, you know, right from

1230
00:54:33.539 --> 00:54:36.360
Time and Memorial have had about the audience identification

1231
00:54:36.360 --> 00:54:36.960
character.

1232
00:54:37.019 --> 00:54:38.219
Like you can't have...

1233
00:54:38.280 --> 00:54:41.699
Why can't why isn't Romana an audience identification character?

1234
00:54:41.760 --> 00:54:45.059
I identified with her when I was 8 years old in 1980?

1235
00:54:45.119 --> 00:54:46.079
Yeah, yeah.

1236
00:54:46.139 --> 00:54:46.320
Yeah.

1237
00:54:46.380 --> 00:54:49.559
I mean, I think I don't think the I don't think the companion is

1238
00:54:49.559 --> 00:54:52.320
really a good audience identification character.

1239
00:54:52.320 --> 00:54:57.360
And there's actually that there's that wonderful moment where the

1240
00:54:57.360 --> 00:55:02.579
doctor says, you know the saying, what goes up, must come down, and

1241
00:55:02.579 --> 00:55:03.659
Adric says no.

1242
00:55:03.780 --> 00:55:05.519
Yes, yes, yes.

1243
00:55:05.519 --> 00:55:09.539
You know, because Roman has been to earth a lot and she knows all

1244
00:55:09.539 --> 00:55:10.260
about it now.

1245
00:55:10.320 --> 00:55:14.039
And, you know, like initially there was going to be a sort of fish

1246
00:55:14.039 --> 00:55:16.800
out of water thing with Romana on earth, not knowing what tennis

1247
00:55:16.800 --> 00:55:17.820
is or whatever.

1248
00:55:18.420 --> 00:55:22.320
But now that's Adric, you know, gets to do that.

1249
00:55:22.380 --> 00:55:26.099
And I don't think, I don't think that audience identification

1250
00:55:26.099 --> 00:55:31.559
character is really the right thing, um, uh, to call a companion

1251
00:55:31.559 --> 00:55:36.119
because like the doctor's the one, he knows all of the earth

1252
00:55:36.119 --> 00:55:37.139
references.

1253
00:55:37.199 --> 00:55:37.739
Do you know what I mean?

1254
00:55:37.800 --> 00:55:40.619
We don't need the doctor interpreted to us by anyone.

1255
00:55:40.679 --> 00:55:41.940
I don't know what they're doing.

1256
00:55:42.000 --> 00:55:45.059
It's just a, I don't know why they think that that was a problem.

1257
00:55:45.179 --> 00:55:48.059
See, in the original setup of the show, where the doctor's just

1258
00:55:48.059 --> 00:55:51.239
the crazy old man who gets the characters into scrapes.

1259
00:55:51.300 --> 00:55:52.260
You know what I mean?

1260
00:55:52.320 --> 00:55:53.639
It's actually about his...

1261
00:55:53.639 --> 00:55:55.559
Yeah, then it's about Ian and Barbara, but it becomes about the

1262
00:55:55.559 --> 00:55:57.960
doctor soon enough because he's been here the whole time.

1263
00:55:58.019 --> 00:55:58.800
Yeah.

1264
00:55:58.860 --> 00:56:01.559
I mean, because you're not a crazy old man being watched by 8 year

1265
00:56:01.559 --> 00:56:01.860
olds.

1266
00:56:01.980 --> 00:56:02.579
Yeah, yeah.

1267
00:56:02.639 --> 00:56:02.880
Yeah.

1268
00:56:02.940 --> 00:56:05.159
I mean, it's one of those one of those things that people just

1269
00:56:05.159 --> 00:56:05.699
accept.

1270
00:56:05.760 --> 00:56:09.360
It's like people accept when Graham Williams came in, he said, well

1271
00:56:09.360 --> 00:56:10.739
they told me to turn down the horror.

1272
00:56:10.800 --> 00:56:13.619
So the only thing to fill the vacuum was humour, and you think

1273
00:56:13.619 --> 00:56:14.760
that makes no sense at all.

1274
00:56:14.820 --> 00:56:17.400
There is no vacuum left by turning down.

1275
00:56:17.460 --> 00:56:18.360
You just got to turn down.

1276
00:56:18.420 --> 00:56:19.320
You just tone down the horror.

1277
00:56:19.380 --> 00:56:22.139
There are plenty of things that are just dramas and not horror

1278
00:56:22.139 --> 00:56:22.380
right?

1279
00:56:22.440 --> 00:56:25.920
Yeah, and yet people accept that as this is the way it must be.

1280
00:56:25.980 --> 00:56:28.619
Like JNT saying no hanky-panky in the TARDIS.

1281
00:56:28.679 --> 00:56:29.460
Rubbish.

1282
00:56:29.519 --> 00:56:32.940
There was ways of doing inverted quotes, hanky-panky and the

1283
00:56:32.940 --> 00:56:34.980
Tartars, which would have been incredibly interesting.

1284
00:56:35.039 --> 00:56:38.460
Like if Dr. Todd from Kinder had become a companion.

1285
00:56:38.519 --> 00:56:40.320
And you had that kind of freison.

1286
00:56:40.380 --> 00:56:42.719
That tanky-panky in the TARDS without actually...

1287
00:56:42.719 --> 00:56:43.800
Actually being hanky-panky.

1288
00:56:43.860 --> 00:56:44.159
Exactly.

1289
00:56:44.519 --> 00:56:48.059
Not quite sure whether we had that in mind, though, at the time.

1290
00:56:48.119 --> 00:56:50.519
Barbara and Ian running around that villa.

1291
00:56:50.579 --> 00:56:52.679
Yes, for example, and Vasor.

1292
00:56:52.920 --> 00:56:54.420
Yuck.

1293
00:56:54.480 --> 00:56:57.900
But it's funny because JT does exactly the same thing after season

1294
00:56:57.900 --> 00:57:00.420
22 with, you know, oh, we were cancelled because we were too

1295
00:57:00.420 --> 00:57:00.840
violent.

1296
00:57:00.900 --> 00:57:02.880
One of the bizarre excuses they came up with.

1297
00:57:02.940 --> 00:57:06.659
And then, um, trial of the Time Lord is then awful.

1298
00:57:06.719 --> 00:57:08.940
Pencil because Warriors are the deep love.

1299
00:57:09.000 --> 00:57:09.599
It's just acceptable.

1300
00:57:09.719 --> 00:57:13.500
Yeah, I know, but then again, JNT, again, says that we have to

1301
00:57:13.500 --> 00:57:16.320
ramp up the humour, which is like nonsense. ramp up the silliness

1302
00:57:16.320 --> 00:57:18.239
you know, the inconsequential silliness.

1303
00:57:18.300 --> 00:57:19.199
That's right.

1304
00:57:19.260 --> 00:57:21.179
Just tone down what you're being asked to tone down.

1305
00:57:21.239 --> 00:57:23.460
You don't then have to bring in something that is opposite to

1306
00:57:23.460 --> 00:57:23.699
that.

1307
00:57:23.760 --> 00:57:24.599
Yes exactly.

1308
00:57:24.780 --> 00:57:26.820
Well, I think we're done.

1309
00:57:26.880 --> 00:57:27.420
What do you think?

1310
00:57:27.420 --> 00:57:28.260
I think we're in that plan.

1311
00:57:28.260 --> 00:57:29.579
I have to be looking for an out for 10 minutes.

1312
00:57:29.639 --> 00:57:33.599
I want, I want, yeah, I want to say that silliness is very

1313
00:57:33.599 --> 00:57:33.900
important.

1314
00:57:33.960 --> 00:57:35.219
I know you do.

1315
00:57:35.280 --> 00:57:35.760
Yeah, good.

1316
00:57:36.239 --> 00:57:40.260
And I'm saying that the right amounts of slamen.

1317
00:57:40.320 --> 00:57:41.460
I think it's just a question of degrees.

1318
00:57:41.519 --> 00:57:42.360
Oh, maybe.

1319
00:57:42.360 --> 00:57:44.579
Not the baby, yes.