WEBVTT NOTE This transcript was created on 2026-05-03 at 08:49:23 1 00:00:33.359 --> 00:00:37.560 Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to 500 year diary. 2 00:00:37.619 --> 00:00:41.820 The only Doctor Who podcast that will still keep going, even when 3 00:00:41.820 --> 00:00:43.920 no one is left alive to hear us. 4 00:00:43.979 --> 00:00:46.140 I'm Nathan. 5 00:00:46.200 --> 00:00:46.740 I am Melvin. 6 00:00:46.859 --> 00:00:48.960 I'm Peter and I'm Simon. 7 00:00:49.020 --> 00:00:52.619 It's the 3rd of September 1977. 8 00:00:52.979 --> 00:00:57.659 Around the beginning of February, work was halted on Terence Dix's 9 00:00:57.659 --> 00:01:00.719 season opening story, The Vampire Mutation, more of which next 10 00:01:00.719 --> 00:01:01.200 week. 11 00:01:01.259 --> 00:01:04.680 And at the end of March, Terrence Dix dropped his replacement 12 00:01:04.680 --> 00:01:07.140 script on Bob Holmes's desk. 13 00:01:07.200 --> 00:01:13.079 And so tonight, 6.800000 people will tune in to watch what might 14 00:01:13.079 --> 00:01:17.819 be one of Doctor Who's all-time classic stories, The Horror of 15 00:01:17.819 --> 00:01:18.599 Fang Rock. 16 00:01:55.859 --> 00:02:00.000 So, I'm gonna, uh, light my cards on the table straight away. 17 00:02:00.060 --> 00:02:03.659 I think this might be my favourite classics series story. 18 00:02:03.719 --> 00:02:08.699 And certainly, I think that this might be my favourite performance 19 00:02:08.699 --> 00:02:12.599 of any actor in the role of the doctor. 20 00:02:12.659 --> 00:02:17.520 Um, I think, Peter, you've said to me before that Peter Davison in 21 00:02:17.520 --> 00:02:20.879 Frontios is your favourite performance, and I think that it's 22 00:02:20.879 --> 00:02:21.960 definitely up there. 23 00:02:22.139 --> 00:02:24.960 But this is my doctor. absolutely my doctor. 24 00:02:25.199 --> 00:02:29.039 I just think this is an extraordinary piece of work easily. 25 00:02:29.099 --> 00:02:30.659 Terence's best script. 26 00:02:30.719 --> 00:02:34.199 For me, for my money, there's only really one moment that is 27 00:02:34.199 --> 00:02:37.740 misjudged in Tom's whole performance in all 4 episodes and it's 28 00:02:37.740 --> 00:02:42.180 when he charges into the meal room and says, um, it's, it's the 29 00:02:42.180 --> 00:02:44.460 moment where he says, there's a, there's a dangerous creature here 30 00:02:44.460 --> 00:02:46.860 that it wants to kill every one of us because he has this like 31 00:02:46.860 --> 00:02:48.539 glee in his eye. 32 00:02:48.539 --> 00:02:52.500 When all of the rest of the 4 episodes, he plays it almost 33 00:02:52.500 --> 00:02:53.400 understated. 34 00:02:53.460 --> 00:02:56.939 I mean, the comedy is there and the, the, the satirical bent of 35 00:02:56.939 --> 00:03:00.539 his, of his humour is there, but I feel like there's just, there's 36 00:03:00.539 --> 00:03:02.939 he goes a little bit too far in that one moment and it's the only 37 00:03:02.939 --> 00:03:04.979 moment that is, I feel misjudged. 38 00:03:05.039 --> 00:03:08.039 Is that the sequence where Paddy Russell was upset that he 39 00:03:08.039 --> 00:03:10.860 wouldn't sort of just pause for a microsecond as he rushes through 40 00:03:10.860 --> 00:03:11.099 the door. 41 00:03:11.219 --> 00:03:12.719 Yes, that's right. 42 00:03:12.780 --> 00:03:15.960 The cameraman couldn't follow him when he came through the door so 43 00:03:15.960 --> 00:03:18.000 quickly, and so they tried it 3 times and it didn't work. 44 00:03:18.060 --> 00:03:20.580 And in the end, she said, look, just hold on, Louise, which 45 00:03:20.580 --> 00:03:24.000 explains that slightly odd choice, but it works. 46 00:03:24.060 --> 00:03:25.860 And that's amazing. 47 00:03:25.919 --> 00:03:29.819 It just goes to show sort of the creative differences and, you 48 00:03:29.819 --> 00:03:32.400 know, arguments with a small A that we can have over Doctor Who. 49 00:03:32.460 --> 00:03:36.539 I think that line and that delivery are one of the all-time greats 50 00:03:36.539 --> 00:03:37.620 in Doctor Who. 51 00:03:37.680 --> 00:03:39.360 Gentlemen, I've got news for you. 52 00:03:39.419 --> 00:03:41.879 This lighthouse is under attack and by morning we may all be 53 00:03:41.879 --> 00:03:42.419 dead. 54 00:03:42.539 --> 00:03:43.319 Anyone interested? 55 00:03:43.439 --> 00:03:45.300 That'd be smart. 56 00:03:45.360 --> 00:03:49.139 I think he's actually sort of quite contemptuous of all of them. 57 00:03:49.199 --> 00:03:51.240 With the exception of Harker. 58 00:03:51.300 --> 00:03:53.340 And... 59 00:03:53.340 --> 00:03:54.180 And... 60 00:03:54.240 --> 00:03:55.319 And Vince. 61 00:03:55.379 --> 00:03:55.979 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 62 00:03:56.039 --> 00:04:00.000 No, like, even Reuben, like, he's amused my root, and there's one 63 00:04:00.000 --> 00:04:05.159 adorable moment where Reuben's being ridiculous, and he turns to 64 00:04:05.159 --> 00:04:06.120 look at Louise. 65 00:04:06.180 --> 00:04:10.620 He turns to look at Leila, you know, hoping to kind of go, wow 66 00:04:10.620 --> 00:04:13.680 this guy's crazy and Leila's biting her lip with fear. 67 00:04:13.740 --> 00:04:15.539 That's the story of the Beast of Fang Rock. 68 00:04:15.599 --> 00:04:18.300 And so, of course, Leila's got no reason not to take it seriously 69 00:04:18.300 --> 00:04:20.879 frankly, especially because of me, for goodness' sake, having her 70 00:04:20.879 --> 00:04:23.699 being a beast of fang rock in the context of Doctor Who, he's not 71 00:04:23.699 --> 00:04:24.360 out of the question. 72 00:04:24.420 --> 00:04:27.300 So I don't know why the doctor's so dismissive of the concept. 73 00:04:27.360 --> 00:04:28.439 No. 74 00:04:28.500 --> 00:04:32.519 And also, I feel like skin sale, skin sale definitely wins him 75 00:04:32.519 --> 00:04:33.240 over by the end. 76 00:04:33.300 --> 00:04:34.740 I mean, if he hadn't died. 77 00:04:34.800 --> 00:04:38.160 I almost feel like, I mean, I watched this 2 or 3 times in the 78 00:04:38.160 --> 00:04:40.800 last sort of week leading up to this just to really refresh it in 79 00:04:40.800 --> 00:04:41.100 my mind. 80 00:04:41.160 --> 00:04:45.660 And there's a sense for me in which seeing skin sale, Leila and 81 00:04:45.660 --> 00:04:48.899 Tom's doctor would be an incredible team going through the 82 00:04:48.899 --> 00:04:49.620 universe together. 83 00:04:49.680 --> 00:04:53.160 But I think it's because he, and even just in the context of this 84 00:04:53.160 --> 00:04:56.699 story, I feel it's the skin sale, approves that he is resourceful 85 00:04:56.699 --> 00:05:00.060 in, in a moment of crisis, which I feel like the doctor finds 86 00:05:00.060 --> 00:05:01.079 respect for at the very end. 87 00:05:01.079 --> 00:05:05.759 Except there's one moment after Tom picks out the one diamond and 88 00:05:05.759 --> 00:05:07.620 throws the others down the stairs. 89 00:05:07.680 --> 00:05:12.779 He just kind of looks as if he's wondering what skin sail will 90 00:05:12.779 --> 00:05:13.139 do. 91 00:05:13.139 --> 00:05:18.779 And skin sail obviously goes after the diamonds and is killed. 92 00:05:18.839 --> 00:05:22.019 And Terence Dix complains about Tom's delivery of the line. 93 00:05:22.079 --> 00:05:24.240 What happened to skin sale and he says dead with honour. 94 00:05:24.300 --> 00:05:27.720 But there's a kind of contempt, I think, in the dead with honour 95 00:05:27.720 --> 00:05:31.319 line because he knows it's ridiculous and that it's not right. 96 00:05:31.379 --> 00:05:35.279 And remember, skin sale is after all, and shows himself to be just 97 00:05:35.279 --> 00:05:37.980 a corrupt politician, I think. 98 00:05:38.040 --> 00:05:40.319 I mean, granted across the board, but I feel like in the 99 00:05:40.319 --> 00:05:41.819 novelisation. 100 00:05:41.879 --> 00:05:43.319 That is much clearer. 101 00:05:43.379 --> 00:05:45.240 In the TV, in the TV story. 102 00:05:45.300 --> 00:05:47.939 It is alighted very quickly and the way, and you, like you say, the 103 00:05:47.939 --> 00:05:49.740 line delivery definitely does matter. 104 00:05:50.160 --> 00:05:54.540 It's interesting because it's only Harker and Vince who are really 105 00:05:54.540 --> 00:05:57.540 completely sympathetic characters and that does make... 106 00:05:57.600 --> 00:05:59.939 I mean, Vince is all very sweet and, you know, I've always liked 107 00:05:59.939 --> 00:06:02.939 him and but Harker's character is sort of functional. 108 00:06:03.000 --> 00:06:05.939 Everybody else, it is a bit like the way Agatha Christie would set 109 00:06:05.939 --> 00:06:11.040 up her stories in that every character has flaws. 110 00:06:11.100 --> 00:06:15.420 And to some extent, those flaws are those characters undoing. 111 00:06:15.480 --> 00:06:18.959 So it's the greed, it's skin sales greed that he rushes out to the 112 00:06:18.959 --> 00:06:21.300 diamonds and is killed because of that. 113 00:06:21.360 --> 00:06:23.160 You know, it's... 114 00:06:23.160 --> 00:06:24.300 Armadale's Avarice. 115 00:06:24.300 --> 00:06:24.899 Exactly. 116 00:06:24.899 --> 00:06:27.060 Or Adelaide's hysteria. 117 00:06:27.060 --> 00:06:32.339 Or but even, but also Rubens kind of almost wilful ignorance. 118 00:06:32.399 --> 00:06:33.240 Ludditism. 119 00:06:33.240 --> 00:06:36.360 Oh my god. unwilling to accept new technologies, unwilling to 120 00:06:36.360 --> 00:06:39.420 accept progress and so on, and that's kind of his undoing as 121 00:06:39.420 --> 00:06:39.540 well. 122 00:06:39.600 --> 00:06:42.720 I think there's a definite class thing here too. 123 00:06:42.779 --> 00:06:46.079 You know, like the doctor next week we'll see him kind of 124 00:06:46.079 --> 00:06:50.939 reflexively ally himself with the normal people of that planet 125 00:06:50.939 --> 00:06:51.899 against the Lords. 126 00:06:51.959 --> 00:06:55.259 You know, his 1st reaction is the Lord's need to be overthrown 127 00:06:55.259 --> 00:06:57.000 almost immediately before he's met them. 128 00:06:57.060 --> 00:07:01.500 Here, I think the contempt that he has for the posh characters is 129 00:07:01.500 --> 00:07:07.800 pretty clear and contrast with his respect for Vince and Harker. 130 00:07:07.860 --> 00:07:12.660 And even when Harker's behaving irrationally, He has some sympathy 131 00:07:12.660 --> 00:07:13.980 for him. 132 00:07:14.100 --> 00:07:17.939 And I think with Reuben, it's amusement, really. 133 00:07:18.000 --> 00:07:18.600 Do you know what I mean? 134 00:07:18.660 --> 00:07:20.879 And it's partly amusement, I think, because he's such a hilarious 135 00:07:20.879 --> 00:07:21.839 stereotype. 136 00:07:21.899 --> 00:07:24.839 I mean, one of the things that I'd never really noticed before is 137 00:07:24.839 --> 00:07:29.819 how funny the dialogue is, just how clever, you know, like there's 138 00:07:29.819 --> 00:07:31.379 just constant, brilliant lines. 139 00:07:31.439 --> 00:07:34.139 The sort of thing that I normally associate with Bob Holmes is 140 00:07:34.139 --> 00:07:36.480 absolutely here with Terrence. 141 00:07:36.480 --> 00:07:41.819 This may have what I think is the funniest line in sort of the era 142 00:07:41.819 --> 00:07:44.699 which is, which is Adelaide. 143 00:07:44.699 --> 00:07:48.600 After the Colonel says, you know, how attractive he finds Leila 144 00:07:48.600 --> 00:07:51.779 Adelaide says, were you a long time in India, Colonel? 145 00:07:51.839 --> 00:07:55.019 What an evil racist cheat. 146 00:07:55.079 --> 00:07:58.199 And it's just so terrifically funny. 147 00:07:58.259 --> 00:08:02.040 Even the kind of background with the Beast of Fang rock and stuff 148 00:08:02.040 --> 00:08:04.379 is a very homesian idea. 149 00:08:04.439 --> 00:08:07.019 But this isn't a very homes in story. 150 00:08:07.079 --> 00:08:11.819 And I think the reason for that is, there is something absolutely 151 00:08:11.819 --> 00:08:18.420 brilliant about bringing these characters in in episode 2 and 152 00:08:18.420 --> 00:08:22.980 having these interactions among the characters that has nothing to 153 00:08:22.980 --> 00:08:26.939 do even thematically with what's going on in the in the monster 154 00:08:26.939 --> 00:08:27.660 alien plot. 155 00:08:27.720 --> 00:08:31.620 And I actually have to say that for me, the best thing about the 156 00:08:31.620 --> 00:08:35.820 story is the interactions between Adelaide, skin sale in Palmadale 157 00:08:35.820 --> 00:08:38.820 I think it's just absolutely brilliant, I'm on the edge of my seat 158 00:08:38.820 --> 00:08:39.659 for the whole thing. 159 00:08:39.720 --> 00:08:42.419 It's awesome, just tremendous. 160 00:08:42.480 --> 00:08:46.860 Terrence has an incredible knack for drafting characters with just 161 00:08:46.860 --> 00:08:48.480 a few broad strokes. 162 00:08:48.539 --> 00:08:51.659 It's a little bit like Russell in his early days as well. 163 00:08:51.720 --> 00:08:54.419 You can kind of like get a character from just a couple of lines. 164 00:08:54.480 --> 00:08:57.360 And so having all of his characters interact like that, is the joy 165 00:08:57.360 --> 00:08:58.080 of the story. 166 00:08:58.139 --> 00:09:00.659 Then there's his dialogue drawing it together. 167 00:09:00.720 --> 00:09:04.320 And Nathan, you mentioned a couple of great lines, but I think the 168 00:09:04.320 --> 00:09:08.100 way that Terence approaches the doctor as well is always amazing 169 00:09:08.100 --> 00:09:10.500 he has this particular knack for writing for the 4th doctor. 170 00:09:10.559 --> 00:09:14.820 What the 4th doctor does is mock his enemies and Terence loves 171 00:09:14.820 --> 00:09:15.720 getting into that. 172 00:09:15.779 --> 00:09:19.559 And have you ever heard such a great summation of the character of 173 00:09:19.559 --> 00:09:22.440 the doctor as the line, are you in charge here? 174 00:09:22.500 --> 00:09:23.879 No, but I'm full of ideas. 175 00:09:24.000 --> 00:09:29.100 Yes, that's just tossed off in scene after scene, and it's 176 00:09:29.100 --> 00:09:30.059 absolutely incredible. 177 00:09:30.299 --> 00:09:33.360 I mean, if I can just sort of pick up on 2 things there. 178 00:09:33.419 --> 00:09:37.500 Firstly, with the sort of the class thing, as I said with Reuben, I 179 00:09:37.500 --> 00:09:40.740 think it's not about class, it's basically a matter of taking 180 00:09:40.740 --> 00:09:41.340 people. 181 00:09:41.460 --> 00:09:45.299 You have to, regardless of what class you are from, your value and 182 00:09:45.299 --> 00:09:48.360 how good a person you are, is your actions. 183 00:09:48.419 --> 00:09:50.460 You know, with great power comes great responsibility. 184 00:09:50.519 --> 00:09:51.779 The doctor is a timelord. 185 00:09:51.779 --> 00:09:54.539 With that, you know, he has great power, with that, he has great 186 00:09:54.539 --> 00:09:55.379 responsibility. 187 00:09:55.440 --> 00:09:58.139 It's the people who, the moral of the show, at least the moral of 188 00:09:58.139 --> 00:10:01.860 the show, and the classic era, is that those who have the ability 189 00:10:01.860 --> 00:10:05.399 to make and effect change, have a responsibility to do so. 190 00:10:05.460 --> 00:10:08.639 And just going back to the Terrence thing, I think Terrence's 191 00:10:08.639 --> 00:10:11.639 characters and the Bob Holmes, in sort of characters as well, are 192 00:10:11.639 --> 00:10:13.980 better than the Russell ones because I think the Russell ones tend 193 00:10:13.980 --> 00:10:16.559 to in the modern era tend to be more one note. 194 00:10:16.620 --> 00:10:20.820 Like, basically their character summary is half a paragraph and 3 195 00:10:20.820 --> 00:10:23.460 lines of dialogue, whereas I don't know whether it's the 196 00:10:23.460 --> 00:10:27.000 opportunity the actors have here to do the rehearsals properly and 197 00:10:27.000 --> 00:10:28.980 maybe because the story is a bit longer. 198 00:10:29.039 --> 00:10:32.639 I don't know, but I believe in the existence of all these people 199 00:10:32.639 --> 00:10:36.240 far more than I believe in the existence of ancillary characters 200 00:10:36.240 --> 00:10:37.919 in the 21st century, in the main. 201 00:10:37.980 --> 00:10:41.340 I mean, part of it is the reliance on dialogue in classic Dog 2 202 00:10:41.340 --> 00:10:42.539 which helps you to draft those characters. 203 00:10:42.659 --> 00:10:43.259 Yes, exactly. 204 00:10:43.259 --> 00:10:45.179 Someone I think what the doctor doesn't have time for is 205 00:10:45.179 --> 00:10:45.659 artifice. 206 00:10:45.720 --> 00:10:48.240 He doesn't have time for people who are just kind of, you know 207 00:10:48.240 --> 00:10:49.019 presenting some of that. 208 00:10:49.080 --> 00:10:52.679 Like, he doesn't have the same problems with, say, Lightfoot intel 209 00:10:52.679 --> 00:10:54.840 and Swang Shiang that he does with Armadale here. 210 00:10:54.899 --> 00:10:55.980 Exactly. 211 00:10:56.039 --> 00:10:58.740 And that's the kind of thing that I will keep coming back to. 212 00:11:07.980 --> 00:11:12.240 Part of the class thing that really appeals to me, rewatching this 213 00:11:12.240 --> 00:11:16.740 was the way that Terrence Dix plays with genre expectations. 214 00:11:16.799 --> 00:11:19.919 You were saying that these characters show up in episode two 215 00:11:19.919 --> 00:11:23.940 because episode one sort of feels like, you know, uh, uh, uh, I 216 00:11:23.940 --> 00:11:26.580 know that people talk about the sort of end of the Gothic era, uh 217 00:11:26.580 --> 00:11:29.399 of Doctor Who, with this particular story, but it does sort of 218 00:11:29.399 --> 00:11:32.399 feel like it owes something to Joseph Sheridan, Lefanu, like 219 00:11:32.399 --> 00:11:34.259 Victorian Gothic stories. 220 00:11:34.320 --> 00:11:37.980 Carmella, things like this where there's a recognisable sort of 221 00:11:37.980 --> 00:11:41.460 monster that will be defeated at some point or some sort of 222 00:11:41.460 --> 00:11:43.379 spectral horror that we have to deal with. 223 00:11:43.440 --> 00:11:46.379 Whereas episode 2 almost feels like you're dropped into 224 00:11:46.379 --> 00:11:47.220 Galsworthy. 225 00:11:47.279 --> 00:11:48.840 Like it feels like the foresight saga. 226 00:11:48.899 --> 00:11:51.240 Talking about like, what is their usefulness or what can they 227 00:11:51.240 --> 00:11:51.720 contribute? 228 00:11:51.779 --> 00:11:54.539 You know, when they introduce Lord Palmerdale basically as a 229 00:11:54.539 --> 00:11:57.539 financier, you know that that's someone who has nothing to 230 00:11:57.539 --> 00:12:00.840 contribute, but who views himself as a job creator, as we would 231 00:12:00.840 --> 00:12:02.159 say, in America these days. 232 00:12:02.220 --> 00:12:05.159 By the time you get to episode 3 and episode four, you've turned 233 00:12:05.159 --> 00:12:06.179 into weird fiction. 234 00:12:06.240 --> 00:12:08.519 Like, this is tentacle, like tentacle. 235 00:12:08.580 --> 00:12:10.080 I was going to say tentacle porn. 236 00:12:10.139 --> 00:12:12.360 That's not what I'm talking about, but you know what I mean. 237 00:12:12.419 --> 00:12:15.179 It's to become a sort of HP Lovecraft tale. 238 00:12:15.240 --> 00:12:19.799 And so all these characters in both of those genres, they both 239 00:12:19.799 --> 00:12:21.600 work in the 3rd genre. 240 00:12:21.659 --> 00:12:24.720 So, like, for me, just the way that it works formally and 241 00:12:24.720 --> 00:12:28.019 generically, by which I mean genre is really fascinating also. 242 00:12:28.080 --> 00:12:31.980 But that's sort of the, the, a beautiful point as well, is the 243 00:12:31.980 --> 00:12:35.580 fact that I think the Doctor Who isn't as most successful when it 244 00:12:35.580 --> 00:12:39.840 creates those settings, which you could legitimately imagine, ah 245 00:12:39.840 --> 00:12:42.480 say, a period, BBC drama, like the foresight saga, and then 246 00:12:42.480 --> 00:12:44.759 suddenly, 0 my gosh, there's a green jellyfish climbing up the 247 00:12:44.759 --> 00:12:45.299 side of lighter. 248 00:12:45.779 --> 00:12:47.580 And that's why. 249 00:12:47.700 --> 00:12:52.259 I think it's wrong as a rule when it treats those earlier scenes 250 00:12:52.259 --> 00:12:56.279 in episode 2 with the shipwrecked survivors as fantastical 251 00:12:56.279 --> 00:12:56.700 things. 252 00:12:56.759 --> 00:13:00.179 That's when I start to lose time for concepts. whereas here you're 253 00:13:00.179 --> 00:13:01.019 absolutely right, Melvin. 254 00:13:01.080 --> 00:13:02.460 That's what exactly what makes it great. 255 00:13:02.519 --> 00:13:05.039 Yeah, I don't think that's filler or anything. 256 00:13:05.100 --> 00:13:06.240 That's not kind of background. 257 00:13:06.299 --> 00:13:07.860 That's absolutely the central thing. 258 00:13:07.919 --> 00:13:10.620 And I think that's extraordinary how that works. 259 00:13:10.679 --> 00:13:15.240 And we've talked before too, about how Terence doesn't delay us or 260 00:13:15.240 --> 00:13:18.779 jerk us around when it comes to how the plot works. 261 00:13:18.840 --> 00:13:23.039 People arrive in episode two, just like the scientific reform 262 00:13:23.039 --> 00:13:28.679 society in robot, the root in here has plans and is doing things 263 00:13:28.679 --> 00:13:32.820 that we're discovering and reacting to, things continue to happen 264 00:13:32.820 --> 00:13:34.320 things continue to develop. 265 00:13:34.379 --> 00:13:36.000 The doctor's allowed to make a mistake. 266 00:13:36.059 --> 00:13:40.980 All of that sort of stuff just keeps the plot going and we aren't 267 00:13:40.980 --> 00:13:42.299 locked up for episode three. 268 00:13:42.360 --> 00:13:43.860 We're not spinning our wheels. 269 00:13:43.919 --> 00:13:46.620 We haven't created a world and then just dropped the doctor in it 270 00:13:46.620 --> 00:13:50.519 to be captured and escape until the end of, you know, part four. 271 00:13:50.580 --> 00:13:52.440 It's a proper developing story. 272 00:13:52.500 --> 00:13:54.419 And Terence is absolutely brilliant at it. 273 00:13:54.480 --> 00:13:57.840 And of course, what you're describing are the mechanics of the 274 00:13:57.840 --> 00:13:58.679 base under siege. 275 00:13:58.740 --> 00:14:00.659 I was going to say exactly that. 276 00:14:00.720 --> 00:14:01.440 That's right. 277 00:14:01.500 --> 00:14:04.740 And this is the purest example of that Doctor Who tradition. 278 00:14:04.799 --> 00:14:08.100 And of course, Terrence has his only stab at it and is better at 279 00:14:08.100 --> 00:14:09.419 it than almost anyone else. 280 00:14:09.480 --> 00:14:12.539 And I know, Nathan, we've talked in the past. 281 00:14:12.600 --> 00:14:15.960 You've had a bit of a problem with based under siege in terms of 282 00:14:15.960 --> 00:14:17.220 what message is it sending. 283 00:14:17.279 --> 00:14:21.120 Now, this is an example of, I think, base under siege done right. 284 00:14:21.179 --> 00:14:24.419 And we can kind of then sort of ask ourselves and wonder why, in 285 00:14:24.419 --> 00:14:26.279 other instances, it's wrong. 286 00:14:26.340 --> 00:14:29.820 Maybe there's an underlying message that's missed or something or 287 00:14:29.820 --> 00:14:31.799 the nature of the way the characters are brought together or 288 00:14:31.799 --> 00:14:31.980 something. 289 00:14:32.039 --> 00:14:35.820 I mean, it's a little bit more of a sort of horror thing where you 290 00:14:35.820 --> 00:14:39.600 have a monster just going around picking off the main characters 291 00:14:39.600 --> 00:14:41.279 like in alien, for instance. 292 00:14:41.340 --> 00:14:44.820 And it's not quite the base under siege that we've seen before. 293 00:14:44.879 --> 00:14:48.360 And, you know, we talk about it being Gothic and it's set, what, 10 294 00:14:48.360 --> 00:14:52.139 years perhaps after the previous story, talons of Wang Chiang, but 295 00:14:52.139 --> 00:14:54.899 it's utterly unlike talons of Wang Chiang. 296 00:14:54.960 --> 00:15:01.080 That's all about the location and the time and the exotic, you 297 00:15:01.080 --> 00:15:05.159 know, foreignness and all sorts of things where, whereas this is 298 00:15:05.159 --> 00:15:07.980 almost only incidentally said in 1902. 299 00:15:08.220 --> 00:15:12.360 And it doesn't have the sort of weight of the past that all of the 300 00:15:12.360 --> 00:15:14.159 Hinchcliffe stuff, has. 301 00:15:14.220 --> 00:15:16.980 There's the beast of Fang Rock, which, as I said, is sort of 302 00:15:16.980 --> 00:15:22.379 classic homes, but this is just some alien soldier, like alien 303 00:15:22.379 --> 00:15:24.600 jellyfish soldier kind of killing people. 304 00:15:24.659 --> 00:15:28.919 It's not an evil, long thought dead or anything like that. 305 00:15:28.980 --> 00:15:33.240 It doesn't have the scale and the scope of a home story. 306 00:15:33.299 --> 00:15:35.820 People overlook that, I think, just because of the period 307 00:15:35.820 --> 00:15:38.279 trappings that it shares with Hinchcliffe stories. 308 00:15:38.340 --> 00:15:41.100 Although I think just to sort of pull all these sort of threads 309 00:15:41.100 --> 00:15:41.399 together. 310 00:15:41.460 --> 00:15:44.340 I think, I mean, yeah, it is a very, very lean script, like 311 00:15:44.340 --> 00:15:47.700 everything moves the plot forward, like literally every line. 312 00:15:47.759 --> 00:15:50.519 And as far as the base on your siege stuff goes, and you were 313 00:15:50.519 --> 00:15:52.799 saying, you know, there's no being locked in a, you know, room for 314 00:15:52.799 --> 00:15:53.399 episode three. 315 00:15:53.460 --> 00:15:55.799 Like, it's one of the other things that really like jumped out on 316 00:15:55.799 --> 00:15:57.779 me this time is that everyone is in constant motion. 317 00:15:57.840 --> 00:16:01.320 Like the lighthouse keepers are constantly circling up and down 318 00:16:01.320 --> 00:16:04.620 the stairs from the lamp to the boiler room, and then the doctor 319 00:16:04.620 --> 00:16:07.980 and Leila are constantly going in and out and up and down, and Tom 320 00:16:07.980 --> 00:16:09.299 is like hanging off the outside. 321 00:16:09.360 --> 00:16:10.740 Like it's like an ant hill. 322 00:16:10.799 --> 00:16:14.519 Like, it's so, it's so busy, but all of that frenetic action, like 323 00:16:14.519 --> 00:16:16.980 is it makes the, it makes the script feel very propulsive. 324 00:16:17.039 --> 00:16:17.759 Yeah. 325 00:16:17.820 --> 00:16:20.220 And the other thing I was going to say is in terms of the, the, the 326 00:16:20.220 --> 00:16:22.860 the period setting, one of the other things for me that that 327 00:16:22.860 --> 00:16:23.220 does. 328 00:16:23.279 --> 00:16:25.980 And I think it does have some, it's some, it does have some 329 00:16:25.980 --> 00:16:26.279 weight. 330 00:16:26.340 --> 00:16:28.440 It doesn't, you know, like you say, it doesn't sort of set dress 331 00:16:28.440 --> 00:16:31.320 the whole thing, like talons of Wang Chiang, but like, there is 332 00:16:31.320 --> 00:16:34.200 that idea, and it's set up in that 1st conversation between the 333 00:16:34.200 --> 00:16:38.100 lighthouse keepers, and it continues in a different form when, uh 334 00:16:38.100 --> 00:16:40.919 uh, the upper class people arrive after the shipwreck. 335 00:16:40.980 --> 00:16:44.759 But it's this idea of, again, 1902, like we're a few years from 336 00:16:44.759 --> 00:16:48.539 World War one, like we're on the edge, the whole debate between 337 00:16:48.539 --> 00:16:52.200 whether oil lamps are better or electricity is better. 338 00:16:52.259 --> 00:16:54.659 This is the march of modernity that is coming. 339 00:16:54.720 --> 00:16:55.860 Like the future is coming. 340 00:16:55.980 --> 00:16:59.639 And I feel like the rooting scout actually plays a role in that as 341 00:16:59.639 --> 00:17:02.340 well because it's something from the far future who is here to 342 00:17:02.340 --> 00:17:04.619 sort of like just use the earth for its resources. 343 00:17:04.680 --> 00:17:08.039 So like there's a sense in which, and that's the other part of the 344 00:17:08.039 --> 00:17:11.880 the skin sale Palmerdale debates is that one of those guys wins. 345 00:17:11.940 --> 00:17:16.440 Like the Palmerdale attitude as repellent as it is, is the 20th 346 00:17:16.440 --> 00:17:16.920 century. 347 00:17:16.980 --> 00:17:19.980 You know, so again, like it's not, it may not be like the period 348 00:17:19.980 --> 00:17:22.920 piece sort of the way that we expect it, but it, you know, it does 349 00:17:22.920 --> 00:17:26.880 have a lot, again, in terms of the sort of gallsworthy plot of 350 00:17:26.880 --> 00:17:30.660 like, you know, we're going from the days of the skin sales of 351 00:17:30.660 --> 00:17:34.799 landed gentry of birth to cash rules, everything around me, Wu 352 00:17:34.440 --> 00:17:35.099 Tang Clan. 353 00:17:35.160 --> 00:17:37.980 But isn't it interesting, though, that, um, this is what you get 354 00:17:37.980 --> 00:17:40.079 in a lot of those period dramas is the tension between 355 00:17:40.079 --> 00:17:45.539 establishment money, i.e. skin sale, and new money, i.e. Parmadale 356 00:17:45.539 --> 00:17:49.920 and how vulgar Parmadale is, in comparison to the refinement of 357 00:17:49.920 --> 00:17:52.859 skin cell, despite his own corruption. 358 00:17:52.920 --> 00:17:55.920 Yeah, you've been watching too much of the Gilded. age, Simon. 359 00:17:56.400 --> 00:18:00.119 That's not possible. 360 00:18:00.839 --> 00:18:04.859 I mean, for me, what is also interesting is, of course, that all 361 00:18:04.859 --> 00:18:08.880 of this stuff is happening, they're also obsessed with it, that 362 00:18:08.880 --> 00:18:12.119 they actually imperil their own ability to be rescued. 363 00:18:12.180 --> 00:18:16.920 And there's that great moment where Skincer looks across at the 364 00:18:16.920 --> 00:18:19.920 telegraph and we know he's going to destroy it. 365 00:18:19.980 --> 00:18:21.480 And then when Tom discovers it. 366 00:18:21.539 --> 00:18:26.160 And without raising his voice, he just says, and so you came in 367 00:18:26.160 --> 00:18:28.680 here and destroyed that thing. 368 00:18:28.740 --> 00:18:32.220 And so they're so obsessed with this little drama that they're in 369 00:18:32.220 --> 00:18:36.480 that they actually aren't able to deal with the bigger drama 370 00:18:36.480 --> 00:18:38.039 that's going to kill them all. 371 00:18:38.099 --> 00:18:39.480 Exactly. 372 00:18:39.539 --> 00:18:46.440 And sidebar, the way he says Tom delivers that line, so you came 373 00:18:46.440 --> 00:18:51.059 in here and wrecked the telegram in this, as you said, underplayed 374 00:18:51.059 --> 00:18:55.019 way, but it matches the, um, I even as a child. 375 00:18:55.079 --> 00:19:01.259 I was reminded of Tom in Tear of the Zygon saying it may be calm 376 00:19:01.259 --> 00:19:02.400 but it is never empty. 377 00:19:02.460 --> 00:19:06.660 Like in really this really closely miced line, you suddenly get 378 00:19:06.660 --> 00:19:09.180 where you get this full resonance of Tom's voice. absolutely 379 00:19:09.180 --> 00:19:09.720 beautiful. 380 00:19:09.779 --> 00:19:11.279 This sort of sombre tone. 381 00:19:11.339 --> 00:19:12.779 Tom's voice is stunning here. 382 00:19:12.839 --> 00:19:14.880 You make it just absolutely stunning. 383 00:19:15.000 --> 00:19:19.140 And the other thing about modernity and the, and communication is 384 00:19:19.140 --> 00:19:22.079 that the, the other, the other thing that's happened is that Ruben 385 00:19:22.079 --> 00:19:25.259 is dead and as old school as he was, he was talking about, yeah 386 00:19:25.259 --> 00:19:26.880 when the morning comes, I'll use semaphore. 387 00:19:26.940 --> 00:19:28.799 So he's dead as well. 388 00:19:28.859 --> 00:19:31.019 So there is no way to communicate with the mainland. 389 00:19:31.079 --> 00:19:31.920 Yeah, yeah. 390 00:19:35.220 --> 00:19:39.119 Nathan, I'd like to pick up on something that you said about this 391 00:19:39.119 --> 00:19:41.819 is different from the Hinchcliffe era and that there's no long 392 00:19:41.819 --> 00:19:43.319 evil dead awakening. 393 00:19:43.380 --> 00:19:46.799 It does something different, and it's kind of like the future of 394 00:19:46.799 --> 00:19:47.279 the show. 395 00:19:47.400 --> 00:19:49.740 Terence has always been interested in time lords and things like 396 00:19:49.740 --> 00:19:49.920 that. 397 00:19:49.980 --> 00:19:52.559 And so rather than have a threat rising from the dead. 398 00:19:52.619 --> 00:19:56.099 What he does is weave it into a wider tapestry of Doctor Who. 399 00:19:56.160 --> 00:19:59.400 So he's introducing law to the program, which is what he did with 400 00:19:59.400 --> 00:20:00.240 the Time Lords. 401 00:20:00.299 --> 00:20:03.900 And so the rootans are not just a one off foe, they are the 402 00:20:03.900 --> 00:20:07.559 eternal enemy of the Sontarians, who we've met twice before and 403 00:20:07.559 --> 00:20:09.779 who we're going to meet again at the end of the season. 404 00:20:09.839 --> 00:20:11.160 Terrence likes doing that. 405 00:20:11.220 --> 00:20:14.160 He likes building a universe in which the doctor operates. 406 00:20:14.220 --> 00:20:18.480 The other thing is, too, that I think that he just borrows from 407 00:20:18.480 --> 00:20:23.220 earlier stories and things that we know in order to just do the 408 00:20:23.220 --> 00:20:27.539 alien thread, because his focus is on the human characters. 409 00:20:27.599 --> 00:20:32.940 And so he borrows the Ruten's arrival from the Time Warrior, he 410 00:20:32.940 --> 00:20:38.099 borrows the way that we dispatch the Ruten from the Santarin 411 00:20:38.099 --> 00:20:38.819 experiment. 412 00:20:38.880 --> 00:20:43.019 He uses the Santarans because he doesn't want to spend a lot of 413 00:20:43.019 --> 00:20:45.180 time establishing who this alien is. 414 00:20:45.240 --> 00:20:48.960 And so he just hangs it on something that already exists that's 415 00:20:48.960 --> 00:20:51.960 already been mentioned, and we don't have to spend a lot of time 416 00:20:51.960 --> 00:20:57.299 justifying why the aliens here and what their deal is because we 417 00:20:57.299 --> 00:20:58.380 don't care about that. 418 00:20:58.440 --> 00:21:02.700 And let's not forget that the whole thing's written in a week or 419 00:21:02.700 --> 00:21:06.180 less, and so often, because of the loss of the vampire mutations 420 00:21:06.180 --> 00:21:09.660 and so often with Doctor Who, and we've said this before, those 421 00:21:09.660 --> 00:21:13.500 last minute scripts come together so beautifully, and I think in a 422 00:21:13.500 --> 00:21:16.680 lot of our own work, my own work, things that are done super fast 423 00:21:16.680 --> 00:21:20.700 can often be some of the best stuff that you do, because it's like 424 00:21:20.700 --> 00:21:23.339 you're working on heightened sens- senses. 425 00:21:23.400 --> 00:21:26.519 You know, he doesn't hang about wondering, or should I do this? 426 00:21:26.579 --> 00:21:27.000 Should I do that? 427 00:21:27.059 --> 00:21:30.480 He goes to the standard go to stuff and goes, right, we're going 428 00:21:30.480 --> 00:21:31.980 into this, we're going to do this, we're going to do this. 429 00:21:32.039 --> 00:21:34.799 And it all comes together in this magical, beautiful way. because 430 00:21:34.799 --> 00:21:36.960 there's no sort of internalised 2nd guessing that you sometimes 431 00:21:36.960 --> 00:21:38.880 get when you have too long to think about something. 432 00:21:38.940 --> 00:21:40.200 It's not the only story. 433 00:21:40.259 --> 00:21:42.480 Like that city of death is another one that's written in basically 434 00:21:42.480 --> 00:21:43.079 a weekend. 435 00:21:43.140 --> 00:21:45.000 I think talons is written fairly quickly, isn't it? 436 00:21:45.059 --> 00:21:46.380 Arken Space for it. 437 00:21:46.380 --> 00:21:46.920 Midnight. 438 00:21:46.980 --> 00:21:47.640 Yeah, exactly. 439 00:21:47.700 --> 00:21:50.519 Terrence is relying on instinct, and that's great because 440 00:21:50.519 --> 00:21:52.440 Terrence's instincts are perfect. 441 00:21:52.500 --> 00:21:55.559 He always said that he was good in a casis. 442 00:21:55.740 --> 00:22:00.900 And the reason that he's good in Equasis is that he doesn't muck 443 00:22:00.900 --> 00:22:01.259 about. 444 00:22:01.319 --> 00:22:03.779 Like you said, he just gets in there and tells the story. 445 00:22:03.779 --> 00:22:05.579 And that's why we dive straight into this. 446 00:22:05.640 --> 00:22:09.660 When people talk about Doctor Who, they say, okay, we're going to 447 00:22:09.660 --> 00:22:11.880 lose Disney money, Doctor Who will have to go back to doing 448 00:22:11.880 --> 00:22:12.900 haunted houses. 449 00:22:12.960 --> 00:22:14.220 They don't mean haunted houses. 450 00:22:14.279 --> 00:22:15.119 Hooray. 451 00:22:15.180 --> 00:22:18.000 Yes, hooray for that idea, but they don't mean an actual haunted 452 00:22:18.000 --> 00:22:18.240 house. 453 00:22:18.299 --> 00:22:19.920 What they mean is the horror... 454 00:22:19.980 --> 00:22:20.700 Yes. 455 00:22:20.759 --> 00:22:23.519 The actual haunted house this season is Image of the Fendial. 456 00:22:23.579 --> 00:22:26.700 And that has a larger sporting cast, changed its location, outdoor 457 00:22:26.700 --> 00:22:28.200 filming, et cetera, et cetera. 458 00:22:28.259 --> 00:22:32.220 This story was praised by the head of series and cereals, Graham 459 00:22:32.220 --> 00:22:36.720 McDonald for, quote, its contained production scale, unquote. 460 00:22:36.779 --> 00:22:39.900 And I would argue that that's fantastic, but it's not actually 461 00:22:39.900 --> 00:22:41.640 very representative of Doctor Who. 462 00:22:41.759 --> 00:22:45.599 The series is usually more ambitious than this and successfully so 463 00:22:45.599 --> 00:22:49.319 and I would argue that the only 70 story to even approach its 464 00:22:49.319 --> 00:22:52.500 economy is the Santarian experiment, which was essentially the 465 00:22:52.500 --> 00:22:54.359 location component of a six-part story. 466 00:22:54.420 --> 00:22:57.240 So, do we know whether Horrorfang was actually very cheap to 467 00:22:57.240 --> 00:22:57.420 make? 468 00:22:57.480 --> 00:23:01.380 Yes, I mean, I haven't read any production memos about its budget 469 00:23:01.380 --> 00:23:04.500 being particularly less, but you can see it on screen. 470 00:23:04.559 --> 00:23:05.579 Small cast. 471 00:23:05.640 --> 00:23:08.700 Um, notch film, and there's only sort of, I think they used, they 472 00:23:08.700 --> 00:23:11.759 had 2 weeks of filming. which was meant to be used for the vampire 473 00:23:11.759 --> 00:23:12.960 mutation at Ealing. 474 00:23:13.019 --> 00:23:13.980 It wouldn't be 2 weeks. 475 00:23:14.039 --> 00:23:15.660 That's a long time, 2 weeks, be 2 days, you mean? 476 00:23:15.720 --> 00:23:18.420 No, 2 weeks. and they only used a week of it to do this. 477 00:23:18.480 --> 00:23:21.119 There's actually more Ealing filming in this than you remember 478 00:23:21.119 --> 00:23:22.500 when you go and watch it. 479 00:23:22.559 --> 00:23:23.339 Yes, yes. 480 00:23:23.339 --> 00:23:24.720 But no, I think it was quite cheap. 481 00:23:24.779 --> 00:23:28.019 But of course, something else which made it cheap was that it's 482 00:23:28.019 --> 00:23:30.960 been recorded many times they had to go to Birmingham to make it 483 00:23:30.960 --> 00:23:34.440 because they didn't have any sets available and Birmingham was 484 00:23:34.440 --> 00:23:34.859 cheaper. 485 00:23:34.920 --> 00:23:35.640 Studios. 486 00:23:35.700 --> 00:23:36.240 That's right. 487 00:23:36.299 --> 00:23:37.259 The sets are quite small. 488 00:23:37.319 --> 00:23:41.160 I mean, there's four. and they're quite small because it's a 489 00:23:41.160 --> 00:23:41.700 lighthouse. 490 00:23:41.759 --> 00:23:43.559 I think the sets are incredible. 491 00:23:43.619 --> 00:23:46.559 Last season, I think we complained or I complained about worries 492 00:23:46.559 --> 00:23:49.319 of the deep, it being easy to forget that we were actually 493 00:23:49.319 --> 00:23:50.039 underwater. 494 00:23:50.099 --> 00:23:52.920 There was nothing in the frame, that indicated we were 495 00:23:52.920 --> 00:23:53.460 underwater. 496 00:23:53.519 --> 00:23:56.880 But here we're never allowed to forget that we're in a lighthouse 497 00:23:56.880 --> 00:23:58.380 and the curved walls. 498 00:23:58.440 --> 00:24:01.259 The curved doors are incredible, just tremendous. 499 00:24:01.319 --> 00:24:05.460 But again, that's because, unlike being Warriors of the Deep, any 500 00:24:05.460 --> 00:24:07.980 set designer has an idea of what a lice house looks like. 501 00:24:08.039 --> 00:24:11.819 So the BBC set department is doing, what it does best, which is to 502 00:24:11.819 --> 00:24:14.099 create these period drama sets. 503 00:24:14.220 --> 00:24:17.339 It's interesting you mentioned about the size of the set and I 504 00:24:17.339 --> 00:24:19.440 don't think this has got anything to do with it being going to 505 00:24:19.440 --> 00:24:24.119 Birmingham per se, Peter, but I watched the making of on the Blu 506 00:24:23.579 --> 00:24:27.539 ray and I was abs- they did, you know, how this guy's doing, I 507 00:24:27.539 --> 00:24:30.539 can't remember his name, but he does these 3D renders of what, how 508 00:24:30.539 --> 00:24:34.680 the studio was with all the sets set up, which are extraordinary 509 00:24:34.680 --> 00:24:38.160 extraordinary resource and kudos to him. 510 00:24:38.220 --> 00:24:39.960 I think he's called Andrew Orton. 511 00:24:40.019 --> 00:24:40.740 Right. 512 00:24:40.799 --> 00:24:41.579 Thank you, Andrew. 513 00:24:41.640 --> 00:24:45.900 So Toby Haydoke is interviewing Louise Jamieson about it in the 514 00:24:45.900 --> 00:24:49.380 sitting and in this lighthouse and Toby brings out his iPad and 515 00:24:49.380 --> 00:24:50.640 shows, Louise. 516 00:24:50.700 --> 00:24:53.460 This is what the sets looked like when they were set up at Pebble 517 00:24:53.460 --> 00:24:53.819 Mill. 518 00:24:53.880 --> 00:24:57.180 And, you know, we're so used to the idea of, oh, my God, the sets 519 00:24:57.180 --> 00:24:59.819 are so small because the studio that they have to work with and 520 00:24:59.819 --> 00:25:01.079 set them up in is so small. 521 00:25:01.140 --> 00:25:05.039 But no, he shows this space of what seems to be a reasonable sized 522 00:25:05.039 --> 00:25:05.759 studio. 523 00:25:05.759 --> 00:25:11.759 And these absolutely microscopic 4 sets are basically in 4 524 00:25:11.759 --> 00:25:14.099 different areas of the studio. 525 00:25:14.160 --> 00:25:17.940 I mean, vast acres in between them, where the cameras can get 526 00:25:17.940 --> 00:25:18.240 around. 527 00:25:18.359 --> 00:25:22.440 And you know, you're just little insensible, so sensible, clever 528 00:25:22.440 --> 00:25:27.000 things, like the fact that, of course, the lamp gallery is built 529 00:25:27.000 --> 00:25:28.559 as a raised set. 530 00:25:28.619 --> 00:25:32.759 So all the cameras are looking up at them to imply when they're on 531 00:25:32.759 --> 00:25:35.400 the gantry thing, to imply that, you know, obviously we're looking 532 00:25:35.400 --> 00:25:38.640 from below, because it's all those sorts of little clever little 533 00:25:38.640 --> 00:25:43.140 directorial things which don't really cost anything, but help give 534 00:25:43.140 --> 00:25:46.079 you a sense of the space and how these spaces relate to each 535 00:25:46.079 --> 00:25:46.319 other. 536 00:25:46.440 --> 00:25:49.380 And of course, even though the sets were simple, and even though 537 00:25:49.380 --> 00:25:52.259 they were working out Pebble Mill, which was all rudimentary in 538 00:25:52.259 --> 00:25:56.400 its facilities, you can't take away the technical achievement of 539 00:25:56.400 --> 00:26:00.240 having in that lamp room, that constant chroma key backdrop. 540 00:26:00.299 --> 00:26:01.619 You lose it a little bit. 541 00:26:01.680 --> 00:26:02.640 Yes, with all that glass. 542 00:26:02.759 --> 00:26:04.619 Yeah, you lose it a little bit when it's just missed. 543 00:26:04.680 --> 00:26:08.160 But in those early scenes from episode one and the late scenes 544 00:26:08.160 --> 00:26:11.339 from episode 4 where you actually have a horizon and the sun on 545 00:26:11.339 --> 00:26:14.160 them, you can't get your head around the fact that they had to 546 00:26:14.160 --> 00:26:17.579 keep both of those cameras, the one who's, which is pointing at 547 00:26:17.579 --> 00:26:20.640 the action and the one which is pointing at the backdrop in sync. 548 00:26:20.700 --> 00:26:22.980 So it didn't look like the backdrop was floating. 549 00:26:23.039 --> 00:26:26.160 That's a marvellous technical achievement and it just flies right 550 00:26:26.160 --> 00:26:26.880 under the radar. 551 00:26:26.940 --> 00:26:30.000 I was going to say one of the things about the sets that is 552 00:26:30.000 --> 00:26:32.220 remarkable, regardless of the size of them. 553 00:26:32.279 --> 00:26:35.039 And I think that's the size of the smallness of what appears to be 554 00:26:35.039 --> 00:26:38.099 the smallness of them actually works to the story's advantage in 555 00:26:38.099 --> 00:26:42.420 the base under siege style because you feel, again, it feels like 556 00:26:42.420 --> 00:26:43.079 an ant hill. 557 00:26:43.140 --> 00:26:45.420 Like, what I was saying earlier about the characters being 558 00:26:45.420 --> 00:26:46.259 constantly emotional. 559 00:26:46.319 --> 00:26:49.200 They're constantly brushing past each other, and I feel like the 560 00:26:49.200 --> 00:26:50.339 sets as small as they are. 561 00:26:50.400 --> 00:26:54.119 And I, you know, I'd have to go back and rewatch it the entire 562 00:26:54.119 --> 00:26:57.240 thing again to make sure, but it feels like they're shot from 563 00:26:57.240 --> 00:26:59.579 different directions or maybe it's that the height of the 564 00:26:59.579 --> 00:27:02.400 characters makes makes the perspective and the way that they're 565 00:27:02.400 --> 00:27:04.680 paired up against each other look different every time. 566 00:27:04.740 --> 00:27:08.640 So even though it's the same 4 sets, it feels like there's almost 567 00:27:08.640 --> 00:27:11.640 a limitless variety of perspectives that they're giving us. 568 00:27:11.640 --> 00:27:14.039 And that feels like a real achievement in this story as well. 569 00:27:14.160 --> 00:27:16.559 I mean, it's verticality. 570 00:27:16.619 --> 00:27:19.619 Russell talks about verticality as a thing that isn't normally 571 00:27:19.619 --> 00:27:22.440 available in a studio set, and this is entirely about that. 572 00:27:22.500 --> 00:27:25.319 The 4 sets are stacked on top of one another. 573 00:27:25.380 --> 00:27:29.579 Um, and it's Holmes's idea, isn't it, to set it in a lighthouse 574 00:27:29.579 --> 00:27:33.660 and that's part of the genius of that idea, I think, is, you know 575 00:27:33.660 --> 00:27:37.559 the base under siege, just sort of uh, uh, impregnable and and and 576 00:27:37.559 --> 00:27:38.220 spread out. 577 00:27:38.279 --> 00:27:41.339 But this, it's all stacked on top of one another. 578 00:27:41.339 --> 00:27:45.359 And you've got the thing climbing up rather than coming in, you 579 00:27:45.359 --> 00:27:47.759 know, that wonderful thing and you don't quite realise what's 580 00:27:47.759 --> 00:27:50.759 happening, I think, is you watch it for the 1st time where Reuben 581 00:27:50.759 --> 00:27:55.559 turns into the root and climbs up the wall kills Parmadale and 582 00:27:55.559 --> 00:27:58.140 then climbs back down and goes back into the thing. 583 00:27:58.200 --> 00:28:00.779 Like, I'm not sure that I understood that when I watched it as a 584 00:28:00.779 --> 00:28:02.579 kid, but that's very clearly what's happening. 585 00:28:02.640 --> 00:28:04.019 It's just so brilliant. 586 00:28:04.079 --> 00:28:04.799 It's so good. 587 00:28:05.039 --> 00:28:09.900 And it's so good that you never, apart from one moment, which I'll 588 00:28:09.900 --> 00:28:11.759 talk about shortly, they always get the geography completely 589 00:28:11.759 --> 00:28:12.180 right. 590 00:28:12.180 --> 00:28:15.000 And you're always aware of the fact that you've got the ballroom 591 00:28:15.000 --> 00:28:17.400 at the bottom, then you've got the crew, then you've got the 592 00:28:17.400 --> 00:28:19.859 sleeping quarters, then you've got the lamp gallery, and you've 593 00:28:19.859 --> 00:28:22.980 only got the one spiral staircase going around the outside of it 594 00:28:22.980 --> 00:28:26.759 and you're never in any illusion as to what's happening where and 595 00:28:26.759 --> 00:28:27.119 why. 596 00:28:27.180 --> 00:28:31.980 We take that for granted because I can tell you, it would not have 597 00:28:31.980 --> 00:28:35.700 taken much for the whole thing to have been quite rubbish in terms 598 00:28:35.700 --> 00:28:38.220 of the way the sets are done and the way it's shot. 599 00:28:38.279 --> 00:28:42.119 And so full credit to Paddy Russell and full credit to whoever the 600 00:28:42.119 --> 00:28:43.740 set designer is, whose name escapes me. 601 00:28:43.799 --> 00:28:45.599 It's Paul Allen who did Spearhead from Space. 602 00:28:45.660 --> 00:28:47.160 Thank you There you go. 603 00:28:47.220 --> 00:28:49.859 But although Spearhead from Space is a series of locations rather 604 00:28:49.859 --> 00:28:50.700 than... 605 00:28:50.759 --> 00:28:53.880 He never had a chance to do his craft, Simon. 606 00:28:54.000 --> 00:28:58.740 It puts me in mind of one of my new series Bugbears, which is the 607 00:28:58.740 --> 00:28:59.579 rebel flesh. 608 00:28:59.640 --> 00:29:01.140 The gang is two-parter. 609 00:29:01.200 --> 00:29:05.220 I mean, I loathe that story just because I think it is so badly 610 00:29:05.220 --> 00:29:06.539 made and told. 611 00:29:06.599 --> 00:29:08.400 It's not that it really is. 612 00:29:08.519 --> 00:29:10.079 I like it. 613 00:29:10.140 --> 00:29:10.740 I think it's fun. 614 00:29:10.859 --> 00:29:15.539 One of the things about it is that you have absolutely no sense of 615 00:29:15.539 --> 00:29:17.220 how everything relates to each other. 616 00:29:17.279 --> 00:29:18.660 You get confused with... 617 00:29:18.660 --> 00:29:21.539 You get characters entering and leaving... and turning up the 618 00:29:21.539 --> 00:29:23.579 different spaces you have. absolutely no idea. 619 00:29:23.640 --> 00:29:26.880 Paddy ties that together, but also Terrence ties that together 620 00:29:26.880 --> 00:29:30.660 because he has the characters moving logically between the 621 00:29:30.660 --> 00:29:31.140 spaces. 622 00:29:31.200 --> 00:29:33.359 So you know where they are at any given space. 623 00:29:33.420 --> 00:29:38.400 Okay, so this is my one thing where I think there is an error in 624 00:29:38.400 --> 00:29:40.680 terms of, from that point of view, not that it ruins it. 625 00:29:40.740 --> 00:29:43.079 It's just the fact that I've always thought this every time I see 626 00:29:43.079 --> 00:29:43.500 the story. 627 00:29:43.559 --> 00:29:45.779 This might take a while. 628 00:29:45.839 --> 00:29:50.160 So, you know, when Ruben's come back up the stairs as a routin, and 629 00:29:50.160 --> 00:29:51.480 he goes into the crew room. 630 00:29:52.500 --> 00:29:58.079 Got it in one. goes into the sleeping quarters and locks the door 631 00:29:58.079 --> 00:29:58.440 right? 632 00:29:58.500 --> 00:30:01.920 The doctor and Leila come up and knock on the door and he's, oh 633 00:30:01.920 --> 00:30:03.240 he's in a state and so on. 634 00:30:03.299 --> 00:30:06.119 Now, and in fact, at one point, Adelaide comes up and says, I must 635 00:30:06.119 --> 00:30:09.299 speak to Lord Palmerdale, and he, you know, the Tom says, get back 636 00:30:09.299 --> 00:30:11.220 to the crew room and all that sort of sequence. 637 00:30:11.279 --> 00:30:14.880 So at some point, Lord Palmerdale has come up the stairs and gone 638 00:30:14.880 --> 00:30:19.140 past the doctor and Leila to get to Vince, who's up the lamp room 639 00:30:19.140 --> 00:30:23.640 to bribe him to send a message to London, et cetera, et cetera. 640 00:30:23.700 --> 00:30:26.759 But the fact that the doctor and Leila don't even know that, or at 641 00:30:26.759 --> 00:30:29.940 least, I know that you can say, well, obviously he walks past them 642 00:30:29.940 --> 00:30:31.740 but why does he then prevent? 643 00:30:31.740 --> 00:30:32.400 We didn't see it. 644 00:30:32.460 --> 00:30:34.680 And why does he prevent Adelaide going up there and not 645 00:30:34.680 --> 00:30:35.220 Palmerdale? 646 00:30:35.279 --> 00:30:36.960 And so there is a there is that little missing moment. 647 00:30:37.019 --> 00:30:37.980 Not that I think it matters. 648 00:30:38.039 --> 00:30:42.599 The other one that I think is when skin sale looks out the door 649 00:30:42.599 --> 00:30:46.980 Reuben has gone past the doorway and he looks down the street. 650 00:30:47.039 --> 00:30:51.059 Ruben is just there, 6 inches from him and he doesn't notice him. 651 00:30:51.119 --> 00:30:53.759 So he doesn't always work 100%. doesn't get it. 652 00:30:54.000 --> 00:30:55.619 I don't know. 653 00:30:55.680 --> 00:30:58.500 See, I was under the impression that the doctor and Leila were 654 00:30:58.500 --> 00:31:00.359 outside when Palmerdale went upstairs. 655 00:31:00.480 --> 00:31:01.319 Okay. 656 00:31:01.319 --> 00:31:01.680 No. 657 00:31:01.740 --> 00:31:02.579 No, no. 658 00:31:02.640 --> 00:31:05.640 I even went back and watched just on fast forward to watch it 659 00:31:05.640 --> 00:31:07.319 again to see all the characters movements. 660 00:31:07.380 --> 00:31:08.640 So they've come back from inside. 661 00:31:08.700 --> 00:31:09.720 They've gone upstairs. 662 00:31:09.779 --> 00:31:14.400 So, um, I think they've gone up and Palmadale is still in the in 663 00:31:14.400 --> 00:31:17.819 the crew room when the doctor and Leila go up to follow Reuben up 664 00:31:17.819 --> 00:31:18.779 the stairs. or do you know what? 665 00:31:18.839 --> 00:31:21.720 I mean, look, as I said, it doesn't really matter, but it is the 666 00:31:21.720 --> 00:31:25.799 only time that the beautiful location logic might have a slight 667 00:31:25.799 --> 00:31:26.579 error in it. 668 00:31:26.700 --> 00:31:30.119 And you say it's something like an old school director like Paddy 669 00:31:30.119 --> 00:31:32.099 Russell would be very keen on that. 670 00:31:32.160 --> 00:31:34.680 She would absolutely be making sure that all the characters 671 00:31:34.680 --> 00:31:37.440 comings and goings made sense logistically. 672 00:31:37.500 --> 00:31:40.140 And to go back to something that you were saying, Melvin, about 673 00:31:40.140 --> 00:31:42.420 the way that, even though they're small sets, they're shot 674 00:31:42.420 --> 00:31:45.119 differently and people seem to be placed differently in them. 675 00:31:45.180 --> 00:31:49.019 What Paddy does, and you don't get this a lot in studio work in 676 00:31:49.019 --> 00:31:53.460 the BBC, is that she pulls focus, maybe not literally, but she 677 00:31:53.460 --> 00:31:56.640 will have characters in the background of shots. 678 00:31:56.700 --> 00:31:58.259 Yes, actually. 679 00:31:58.319 --> 00:32:01.740 It's not a literal focus pull, or if it is, it's very minor, but 680 00:32:01.740 --> 00:32:05.099 it means that you get depth in your sets, even though they're very 681 00:32:05.099 --> 00:32:05.400 small. 682 00:32:05.519 --> 00:32:06.960 Yeah, you'll have the doctor. 683 00:32:07.019 --> 00:32:09.960 I'm thinking in that scene where he's initially toying with the 684 00:32:09.960 --> 00:32:13.019 telegraph and Leila is eating something at the table. 685 00:32:13.019 --> 00:32:16.619 And you see the doctor, you see the telegraph, you see the doctor 686 00:32:16.619 --> 00:32:19.559 you see Leila, you see the background of the set. and it makes it 687 00:32:19.559 --> 00:32:21.299 look impossibly bigger than it actually was. 688 00:32:21.359 --> 00:32:22.019 Yeah. 689 00:32:22.019 --> 00:32:25.200 Yeah, a focus pull, as opposed to pulling focus, because pulling 690 00:32:25.200 --> 00:32:27.420 focus is when there's a character in the background. doing 691 00:32:27.420 --> 00:32:28.319 something that's distracting us. 692 00:32:29.640 --> 00:32:32.400 And pulls the focus from the main action. 693 00:32:32.460 --> 00:32:33.180 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 694 00:32:47.640 --> 00:32:50.460 One thing I wanted to go back to real quick before we left the 695 00:32:50.460 --> 00:32:53.039 script behind altogether was that one of the last times we 696 00:32:53.039 --> 00:32:55.799 addressed it, we were talking about how quickly it was written, how 697 00:32:55.799 --> 00:32:59.220 instinctively, but I wanted to argue that it is not, for that 698 00:32:59.220 --> 00:33:00.599 reason, a simple script. 699 00:33:00.660 --> 00:33:03.299 Like, it's a very, it's very dense. 700 00:33:03.359 --> 00:33:05.940 And I just wanted to make sure that it, it, you know, that we came 701 00:33:05.940 --> 00:33:09.779 back around to that because, again, watching it, uh, specifically 702 00:33:09.779 --> 00:33:13.559 for for this recording, like I was noticing, and again, I read 703 00:33:13.559 --> 00:33:16.920 everything like a, like a book, all the mirroring and dark doubles 704 00:33:16.920 --> 00:33:20.940 like the 2 sets of three, the, the, the 2 light keepers and and 705 00:33:20.940 --> 00:33:24.720 Vince and then the 2 financiers and their, their secretary. 706 00:33:24.779 --> 00:33:28.920 And then you've got like the 2 sort of warriors in uh, the Rutin 707 00:33:28.920 --> 00:33:29.579 and Leila. 708 00:33:29.640 --> 00:33:32.640 Like, this is like, it goes on, like, there are so many of those 709 00:33:32.640 --> 00:33:37.380 sort of things going on as well as like, again, um, the, the, the 710 00:33:37.380 --> 00:33:40.559 science versus supernatural, the, the march into modernity. 711 00:33:40.619 --> 00:33:42.539 Like, there's just so much going on in the script. 712 00:33:42.599 --> 00:33:45.660 I just wanted to make sure that we weren't leaving it behind and 713 00:33:45.660 --> 00:33:48.839 saying that this was, because it's quickly written and because 714 00:33:48.839 --> 00:33:51.960 it's efficient, because it's lean, doesn't mean that it's also not 715 00:33:51.960 --> 00:33:55.500 you know, literary and proficient in its depth. 716 00:33:55.559 --> 00:33:56.400 Absolutely. 717 00:33:56.460 --> 00:33:59.039 I mean, I wasn't meaning that as the majority of it all. 718 00:33:59.160 --> 00:34:01.740 There's so much there, Melvin, that I didn't even think of, and 719 00:34:01.740 --> 00:34:02.460 you're absolutely right. 720 00:34:02.519 --> 00:34:07.259 And again, in the defence of the four-part story that, you know 721 00:34:07.259 --> 00:34:09.900 old, you know, classic Doctor Who stories were too long, blah, blah 722 00:34:09.900 --> 00:34:10.199 blah. 723 00:34:10.260 --> 00:34:13.860 No, under the right writer, under the right team, they're gripping 724 00:34:13.860 --> 00:34:14.820 from go to woe. 725 00:34:14.880 --> 00:34:16.559 Now that's a variety of reasons for that. 726 00:34:16.619 --> 00:34:19.019 Probably a lot, a lot of it's to do with the fact that the 727 00:34:19.019 --> 00:34:20.760 shipwreck crew don't arrive until part two. 728 00:34:20.820 --> 00:34:26.219 But that's what you do when you've got a limited number of sets 729 00:34:26.219 --> 00:34:27.420 and a limited number of days. 730 00:34:27.480 --> 00:34:29.820 I mean, that's just how you write this stuff, you know? 731 00:34:29.880 --> 00:34:34.679 Palmadale's only in 2 episodes. his body's in episode four. that 732 00:34:34.679 --> 00:34:35.039 is true. 733 00:34:35.099 --> 00:34:39.059 He's lying in the floor. credit at the end, actually. 734 00:34:39.119 --> 00:34:42.599 It's why it undersells it, just to say that Terence is good in a 735 00:34:42.599 --> 00:34:46.320 crisis because the reason he's good in a crisis is that he has all 736 00:34:46.320 --> 00:34:49.019 of that talent and experience to draw upon. 737 00:34:49.079 --> 00:34:51.960 And so if you do have that, then having to do something quickly 738 00:34:51.960 --> 00:34:55.260 doesn't mean that you have a quick end product as a result. 739 00:34:55.320 --> 00:34:59.039 You also can't talk about horror Fang Rock without talking about 740 00:34:59.039 --> 00:35:05.579 it in the context of Leila because it was so strange, the myth 741 00:35:05.579 --> 00:35:09.360 that grew up about Leila in this script, and some of it was 742 00:35:09.360 --> 00:35:13.079 propelled by Louise Jameson, who said that when she got the script 743 00:35:13.079 --> 00:35:16.199 it was terrible, and it wasn't Leila and she was screaming, and it 744 00:35:16.199 --> 00:35:17.579 must have been written for Sarah Jane. 745 00:35:17.639 --> 00:35:20.400 Now, obviously that was her experience of it, but we know that 746 00:35:20.400 --> 00:35:20.940 that's not true. 747 00:35:21.000 --> 00:35:23.579 It wasn't written with Sarah Jane. was written for Leila. 748 00:35:23.639 --> 00:35:27.539 I don't know who rewrote it or if they did. 749 00:35:27.599 --> 00:35:28.800 I suspect no one did. 750 00:35:28.860 --> 00:35:31.260 I expect they just finessed a couple of things, but it is 751 00:35:31.260 --> 00:35:33.840 absolutely in character for Leila. 752 00:35:33.900 --> 00:35:38.219 It is, in fact, her best story, because not only do you have the 753 00:35:38.219 --> 00:35:42.960 comparison with Adelaide, not only do you have her as kind of the 754 00:35:42.960 --> 00:35:48.780 quite grim, but also quite jolly counterpart to Tom's grimness in 755 00:35:48.780 --> 00:35:50.219 pieces. 756 00:35:50.519 --> 00:35:53.519 She's given a great chunk of the action and she has all of her 757 00:35:53.519 --> 00:35:54.420 best lines. 758 00:35:54.480 --> 00:35:57.360 So people celebrate the silence. 759 00:35:57.420 --> 00:36:00.000 You'll do as the doctor instructor will cut out your heart, which 760 00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:02.219 is, of course, fantastic. 761 00:36:02.280 --> 00:36:05.400 But you also have her taunting rooting. 762 00:36:05.400 --> 00:36:08.699 Enjoy your death as I enjoyed killing you, which is like a 763 00:36:08.699 --> 00:36:11.099 quintessential Leila moment. 764 00:36:11.159 --> 00:36:13.980 And when the ship strikes the rocks. 765 00:36:14.039 --> 00:36:16.320 She just turns her head dismissfully and says, well, they'll all 766 00:36:16.320 --> 00:36:16.679 die then. 767 00:36:16.739 --> 00:36:18.420 It is just amazing. 768 00:36:18.480 --> 00:36:22.079 You know, Boucher obviously creates the character and gets her 1st 769 00:36:22.079 --> 00:36:23.159 what, 8 episodes? 770 00:36:23.219 --> 00:36:24.119 Is that right? 771 00:36:24.179 --> 00:36:27.840 I think Holmes is a bit dismissive of her. 772 00:36:27.900 --> 00:36:33.059 And I think Holmes Holmes is good with the, you know, the 2 773 00:36:33.059 --> 00:36:37.380 companions that he creates. you know, Liz and Romana. 774 00:36:37.440 --> 00:36:40.980 I think that Terence shows a greater respect for her. 775 00:36:41.039 --> 00:36:43.920 And I think, I think what's interesting about that is, you know 776 00:36:43.920 --> 00:36:46.679 Terrence used to performatively go, oh, you know, we just need a 777 00:36:46.679 --> 00:36:49.980 girl who screams and asks the doctor questions and stuff and 778 00:36:49.980 --> 00:36:51.239 that's all the companion is. 779 00:36:51.239 --> 00:36:54.300 And he usually does that in the context of talking about Joe, who 780 00:36:54.300 --> 00:36:56.579 is absolutely not that at all. 781 00:36:56.639 --> 00:37:00.179 Um, you know, is much, much more proactive and competent and 782 00:37:00.179 --> 00:37:03.539 sophisticated than he gives her credit for here. 783 00:37:03.599 --> 00:37:09.059 I think he absolutely critiques Adelaide, but the other characters 784 00:37:09.059 --> 00:37:10.559 as well through Leela. 785 00:37:10.619 --> 00:37:15.119 Leila gets to change out of her period frock into men's clothes 786 00:37:15.119 --> 00:37:17.099 with a fabulous smell. 787 00:37:17.159 --> 00:37:18.840 She's wonderful. 788 00:37:18.900 --> 00:37:21.960 And that scene again, which critiques, you know, the weird 789 00:37:21.960 --> 00:37:25.920 Victorian attitudes, like Vince's kind of terrible embarrassment 790 00:37:25.920 --> 00:37:31.139 at, at, um, her taking off her clothes, yeah. dressing in front of 791 00:37:31.139 --> 00:37:31.380 him. 792 00:37:31.440 --> 00:37:35.099 And, and you know, Adelaide with her, you know, and you send women 793 00:37:35.099 --> 00:37:37.800 to Stoke boilers and, you know, like all of that sort of stuff 794 00:37:37.800 --> 00:37:41.940 about, about what a woman's role is and just how dismal and 795 00:37:41.940 --> 00:37:43.440 pathetic Adelaide is. 796 00:37:43.500 --> 00:37:47.760 And the role of slapping a hysterical woman in the face is a man's 797 00:37:47.760 --> 00:37:48.239 role. 798 00:37:48.360 --> 00:37:49.320 Brilliant. 799 00:37:49.320 --> 00:37:51.239 And and Leila gets given it. 800 00:37:51.239 --> 00:37:53.340 And gosh, it's such a satisfying moment. 801 00:37:53.400 --> 00:37:56.880 Apparently, the actress told Luis... 802 00:37:56.940 --> 00:37:58.199 Yes, she didn't... 803 00:37:58.199 --> 00:37:58.980 You can tell, too. 804 00:37:59.039 --> 00:38:01.380 It's like she goes after it. 805 00:38:01.440 --> 00:38:04.980 It's not the usual Doctor Who think of slapping near someone and 806 00:38:04.980 --> 00:38:05.519 then falling. 807 00:38:05.579 --> 00:38:07.019 And one of the great things about that relationship. 808 00:38:07.019 --> 00:38:10.679 And again, the Leila character in this is, again, we really do 809 00:38:10.679 --> 00:38:13.380 need to talk about it because she's written and it's performed by 810 00:38:13.380 --> 00:38:15.960 Louise in such a nuanced way. 811 00:38:16.019 --> 00:38:19.559 Like, again, rewatching this for the 1st time in years, like, it 812 00:38:19.559 --> 00:38:23.699 just struck me how much this is like the pattern for every cop 813 00:38:23.699 --> 00:38:27.659 drama that has been since the 70s or 80s that you've got the sort 814 00:38:27.659 --> 00:38:30.960 of brainy one who thinks and the other one who's like all action. 815 00:38:31.019 --> 00:38:34.619 It's the sort of life on Mars, like Gene Hunt and uh, uh, uh, Sam 816 00:38:34.619 --> 00:38:37.079 character, but like that, that Leila can play. 817 00:38:37.139 --> 00:38:40.679 Leila is the bad cop and she plays that very well and she's also 818 00:38:40.679 --> 00:38:43.920 it doesn't mean that she's not smart, even though she is used to 819 00:38:43.920 --> 00:38:47.460 highlight that that idea of science versus superstition. 820 00:38:47.519 --> 00:38:50.460 At one point, she tells Adelaide when she's like, Adelaide's like 821 00:38:50.460 --> 00:38:54.119 oh, my Miss Nethercott, my astrologer was telling me, you know, the 822 00:38:54.119 --> 00:38:55.079 death was around me. 823 00:38:55.079 --> 00:38:56.880 And she's like, no, this is this is nonsense. 824 00:38:56.940 --> 00:38:58.800 The doctor has taught me that science is better. 825 00:38:58.860 --> 00:39:02.340 Even though the way that Leila talks about it, it might as well 826 00:39:02.340 --> 00:39:04.139 just be another astrology. 827 00:39:04.199 --> 00:39:05.219 It's a new religion. 828 00:39:05.280 --> 00:39:06.960 That's so good. 829 00:39:07.019 --> 00:39:10.260 Yeah, I think there's this thing that's built up around Layla 830 00:39:10.260 --> 00:39:14.219 though, that the character is quite inconsistently recent. 831 00:39:14.280 --> 00:39:18.059 I think most of the fault of that goes to underworld where she 832 00:39:18.059 --> 00:39:19.199 just becomes quite stupid. 833 00:39:19.199 --> 00:39:21.659 And she's a bit stupid. 834 00:39:21.659 --> 00:39:23.760 An invasion of time, she's stupid. 835 00:39:23.820 --> 00:39:25.860 So she kind of does deteriorate and invisible enemy. 836 00:39:25.920 --> 00:39:26.760 She quite stupid as well. 837 00:39:26.820 --> 00:39:28.139 I disagree with you, Nathan. 838 00:39:28.199 --> 00:39:31.320 I think Holmes does a great job with her in both in both talons 839 00:39:31.320 --> 00:39:32.219 and sunmakers. 840 00:39:32.280 --> 00:39:35.099 I think she's got that thing because what, but Terrence, absolutely 841 00:39:35.099 --> 00:39:38.219 this is the best portrayal of Leila and where most of her 842 00:39:38.219 --> 00:39:40.860 memorable lines come from because it basically it gets to the root 843 00:39:40.860 --> 00:39:42.659 of the thing that she is not stupid. 844 00:39:42.719 --> 00:39:45.059 She just has a different frame of reference. 845 00:39:45.059 --> 00:39:50.039 And she's actually incredibly smart and I think, and as you said 846 00:39:50.039 --> 00:39:51.420 Adelaide is useless. 847 00:39:51.480 --> 00:39:53.880 And it comes back to that to the moral of the story. 848 00:39:53.940 --> 00:39:55.320 It's not what you've got. 849 00:39:55.380 --> 00:39:56.400 It's what you do with it. 850 00:39:56.460 --> 00:39:57.059 Do you know what I mean? 851 00:39:57.119 --> 00:40:00.119 It's all about how you behave in those situations. 852 00:40:00.179 --> 00:40:01.500 Adelaide falls to pieces. 853 00:40:01.559 --> 00:40:04.079 Whereas Leila comes to the rescue. 854 00:40:04.139 --> 00:40:06.239 And the way, and one thing you sort of just touched on there 855 00:40:06.239 --> 00:40:09.420 Pepita, but just to underscore some of the brilliant lines she 856 00:40:09.420 --> 00:40:10.860 throws back Tom. 857 00:40:10.920 --> 00:40:13.380 None of the 3s to mind where she completely takes... 858 00:40:13.380 --> 00:40:14.219 The technician line? 859 00:40:14.280 --> 00:40:15.659 Yes, where Tom laughs. 860 00:40:15.719 --> 00:40:17.880 Tom Cardiff goes, you've made a pun. 861 00:40:17.940 --> 00:40:19.860 Um, you know, it's test mission. 862 00:40:19.920 --> 00:40:23.460 But no, but she takes the piss out of you on so many occasions. 863 00:40:23.519 --> 00:40:24.539 It's brilliant. 864 00:40:24.599 --> 00:40:25.139 It's brilliant. 865 00:40:25.199 --> 00:40:27.420 The one where she's like, oh, but I'm, what would I know? 866 00:40:27.480 --> 00:40:28.139 just a savage. 867 00:40:28.199 --> 00:40:30.960 Like, that just feels... so knowing. 868 00:40:31.019 --> 00:40:34.980 Also, the, and I think this was actually, maybe you weren't 869 00:40:34.980 --> 00:40:37.800 supposed to see Louise's reaction here, but when she says, you are 870 00:40:37.800 --> 00:40:43.260 a timelord, which is a little bit unlilah-like, but just as the 871 00:40:43.260 --> 00:40:46.500 camera follows Tom away and you see Louise's face, she crumples up 872 00:40:46.500 --> 00:40:46.980 in laughter. 873 00:40:46.980 --> 00:40:48.599 And I don't think that's Leila. 874 00:40:48.659 --> 00:40:49.440 I think that's Louise. 875 00:40:49.500 --> 00:40:54.000 Leila is all instinctive intelligence versus the doctor's reasoned 876 00:40:54.000 --> 00:40:54.780 intelligence. 877 00:40:54.900 --> 00:40:57.480 And that's what makes them such good pairing. 878 00:40:57.480 --> 00:40:59.760 Going back to what you were saying about talons, Nathan. 879 00:40:59.820 --> 00:41:04.139 I think even though I love the way that Bob Holmes writes Leila in 880 00:41:04.139 --> 00:41:07.800 that story, he fits her into the Eliza Doolittle role, whereas I 881 00:41:07.800 --> 00:41:10.980 think when he comes to write her in The Sunmakers, then, you know 882 00:41:10.980 --> 00:41:14.880 that might well be co-best story for Leila along with this. 883 00:41:14.940 --> 00:41:17.820 But again, it brings us back to the brilliance of Terence because 884 00:41:17.820 --> 00:41:19.139 what Terence does time again. 885 00:41:19.199 --> 00:41:22.260 We'll see it next week and stated to K. We saw it last week in 886 00:41:22.260 --> 00:41:26.519 Robot, and it's what makes him so uniquely appropriate to write 887 00:41:26.519 --> 00:41:29.940 the 5 doctors is that he understands that you have to have the 888 00:41:29.940 --> 00:41:33.000 doctor and the companion bouncing off each other continuously. 889 00:41:33.059 --> 00:41:37.139 And so he has endless scenes with them together, discussing the 890 00:41:37.139 --> 00:41:40.199 plot and what's happening, and that gives rise to all those 891 00:41:40.199 --> 00:41:42.539 beautiful character moments and some of the best dialogue. 892 00:41:42.599 --> 00:41:47.880 I think that we tend to read Romana as a reaction against Leila. 893 00:41:47.940 --> 00:41:51.480 You know, the dynamic between them is different and it definitely 894 00:41:51.480 --> 00:41:51.900 is. 895 00:41:51.960 --> 00:41:56.159 But what we do have here is 2 aliens, we're both from space. 896 00:41:56.219 --> 00:42:02.159 We both stand outside this society and its customs and its ethics 897 00:42:02.159 --> 00:42:03.900 and its worldview. 898 00:42:03.960 --> 00:42:09.059 And as a result, she gets to be, I think, more doctor-ish. 899 00:42:09.119 --> 00:42:13.320 She gets to to take initiative, to tell the other characters to do 900 00:42:13.320 --> 00:42:13.739 things. 901 00:42:13.800 --> 00:42:17.340 Both the doctor and Leila order the other characters around all 902 00:42:17.340 --> 00:42:19.800 the time and tell them how to behave. 903 00:42:19.860 --> 00:42:23.460 So I think they're co-equal in a way that we don't normally think 904 00:42:23.460 --> 00:42:24.420 of them as being. 905 00:42:24.480 --> 00:42:27.420 And I think they are quite a lot like the doctor and Romana. 906 00:42:27.480 --> 00:42:29.099 And the doctor and Liz as well. 907 00:42:29.159 --> 00:42:30.480 And the doctor and Sarah Jane as well. 908 00:42:30.539 --> 00:42:31.139 Yeah, yeah. 909 00:42:31.199 --> 00:42:33.119 And again, I think that's one of the things that jumped out at me 910 00:42:33.119 --> 00:42:35.880 when I was talking about the police detectors is that they feel 911 00:42:35.880 --> 00:42:39.420 like partners more than like the My Fair Lady sort of 912 00:42:39.420 --> 00:42:40.019 relationship. 913 00:42:40.079 --> 00:42:42.360 But also I wanted to complicate and develop a little bit. 914 00:42:42.420 --> 00:42:44.400 And I know that you weren't trying to be simplistic about it, Peter 915 00:42:44.400 --> 00:42:48.480 but the idea of of Leila's instinctive intelligence because, again 916 00:42:48.480 --> 00:42:52.260 I feel like it sort of makes her into, and again, this is part of 917 00:42:52.260 --> 00:42:55.559 that move to modernity as well, is that idea of from Rousseau, of 918 00:42:55.559 --> 00:42:57.659 natural man, of the noble savage. 919 00:42:57.719 --> 00:43:00.000 That's sort of, I believe that's where that language is coming 920 00:43:00.000 --> 00:43:00.900 from in the 1st place. 921 00:43:00.960 --> 00:43:05.519 But there's also the intelligence of practice and practical 922 00:43:05.519 --> 00:43:08.280 knowledge that she has as a hunter, which sort of goes back to 923 00:43:08.280 --> 00:43:11.460 that idea of of her being the double in this story, not only of 924 00:43:11.460 --> 00:43:15.000 Adelaide, but also the double of the rooten, because the rooten is 925 00:43:15.000 --> 00:43:17.159 also a cunning warrior. 926 00:43:17.219 --> 00:43:20.039 And there's that scene where, you know, Tom is trying to, he goes 927 00:43:20.039 --> 00:43:23.159 off and tries to, he's going to go talk to Vince, I think, in the 928 00:43:23.159 --> 00:43:23.760 boiler room. 929 00:43:23.820 --> 00:43:27.539 And Leila sort of sneaks out to go, like, literally, sort of see 930 00:43:27.539 --> 00:43:28.559 see, if she can track the creature. 931 00:43:28.619 --> 00:43:31.320 And, you know, you have that sequence where she finds the dead 932 00:43:31.320 --> 00:43:34.800 fish and she hears something rustling and she like, so she is 933 00:43:34.800 --> 00:43:35.340 furtive. 934 00:43:35.400 --> 00:43:36.119 She is cunning. 935 00:43:36.179 --> 00:43:39.480 All the terms that they apply to the rooting scout can equally be 936 00:43:39.480 --> 00:43:40.500 applied to Leila. 937 00:43:40.559 --> 00:43:43.440 And I feel like that's one of the reasons why she does gloat there 938 00:43:43.440 --> 00:43:47.760 at the end is she has seen it, as her enemy this entire time, and 939 00:43:47.760 --> 00:43:51.059 that they have been, like, regardless of whatever else is going on 940 00:43:51.059 --> 00:43:54.659 that she has pitted herself against it, to see who is the best 941 00:43:54.659 --> 00:43:55.019 warrior. 942 00:43:55.199 --> 00:43:58.800 That use of the word first, if there's that moment where the 943 00:43:58.800 --> 00:44:03.059 doctor describes the root and is furtive. and she just says what 944 00:44:03.059 --> 00:44:06.599 is furtive and she's not made fun of and nothing like that, the 945 00:44:06.599 --> 00:44:08.039 doctor just explains what it means. 946 00:44:08.099 --> 00:44:10.800 And then she says, you know, then we're not facing an enemy that's 947 00:44:10.800 --> 00:44:14.400 bold and stuff, you know, like she clocks it immediately, even if 948 00:44:14.400 --> 00:44:15.719 she doesn't know that particular word. 949 00:44:15.780 --> 00:44:18.780 And the fact is that Leila goes out on that solar mission of her 950 00:44:18.780 --> 00:44:19.079 own. 951 00:44:19.139 --> 00:44:21.599 And following the scene where the doctor says, I don't fancy 952 00:44:21.599 --> 00:44:23.699 playing tag in the fog with something that can do that. 953 00:44:24.300 --> 00:44:28.139 And when she comes back in, she says, do not be afraid, doctor. 954 00:44:28.199 --> 00:44:30.239 Yes, absolutely incredible. 955 00:44:30.300 --> 00:44:33.420 And then he, you know, it takes him a moment to clock that also 956 00:44:33.420 --> 00:44:36.659 when he turns around. you don't be afraid. 957 00:44:42.719 --> 00:44:44.519 I love those moments too, when the doctor says something that 958 00:44:44.519 --> 00:44:46.739 makes it very clear he's very fond of the companion. 959 00:44:46.800 --> 00:44:49.260 Like, for instance, in the seeds of doom, where he says, this is 960 00:44:49.260 --> 00:44:50.760 Sarah, she's my best friend. 961 00:44:50.820 --> 00:44:55.800 And in here, I love the moment where he aggressively says to the 962 00:44:55.800 --> 00:44:59.219 others, Leila's senses are particularly acute, if she says it's 963 00:44:59.219 --> 00:45:00.659 getting colder, it's getting colder. 964 00:45:00.719 --> 00:45:01.440 Do you know what I mean? 965 00:45:01.500 --> 00:45:04.380 And that shows he utterly respects Leila's understanding of the 966 00:45:04.380 --> 00:45:04.559 world. 967 00:45:04.619 --> 00:45:07.679 And there's a lovely counterpoint to that scene in robots of death 968 00:45:07.679 --> 00:45:11.639 where she hears from the vibration, the engine that the sand minor 969 00:45:11.639 --> 00:45:12.119 is going wrong. 970 00:45:12.179 --> 00:45:16.019 He doesn't believe her and then is proven wrong and says, please 971 00:45:16.019 --> 00:45:17.460 don't say I told you to. 972 00:45:18.179 --> 00:45:20.820 Ponder this. ponder this. 973 00:45:20.880 --> 00:45:23.699 There are more good scenes between the doctor and the companion in 974 00:45:23.699 --> 00:45:25.500 this story than in the whole Davis and era. 975 00:45:25.559 --> 00:45:29.820 I think that's now that is needlessly cruel, patience. 976 00:45:30.119 --> 00:45:32.760 No, I mean, I'll bring you that. 977 00:45:32.760 --> 00:45:34.679 I don't hate the Davidson era. 978 00:45:34.739 --> 00:45:38.579 I don't particularly love it, but I did sit there counting them up 979 00:45:38.579 --> 00:45:40.920 in my mind and thinking, obviously, I'm being a little bit 980 00:45:40.920 --> 00:45:45.420 facetious here, but the fact that the program loses its focus on 981 00:45:45.420 --> 00:45:47.639 these things, which make it so successful. 982 00:45:47.699 --> 00:45:51.300 You know, part of the reason, horrifying rock, that we love it and 983 00:45:51.300 --> 00:45:53.820 part of the reason that it doesn't matter that it's only set in 4 984 00:45:53.820 --> 00:45:54.179 sets. 985 00:45:54.239 --> 00:45:57.000 And probably the reason that it's so atmospheric is that you have 986 00:45:57.000 --> 00:46:00.480 those endless great scenes between the doctor and his companion. 987 00:46:00.539 --> 00:46:03.300 And when the program moves into a more straightforward action 988 00:46:03.300 --> 00:46:07.980 genre, like under Eric Sayward, you tend to lose that nuance. 989 00:46:08.039 --> 00:46:11.159 And for whatever reason it just makes it slightly less enjoyable. 990 00:46:11.639 --> 00:46:13.320 Several things. 991 00:46:13.380 --> 00:46:16.380 Firstly, I'd probably suggest that most of the good character 992 00:46:16.380 --> 00:46:22.380 moments in the Davis Nera are in caves, Evangelzani, actually. 993 00:46:22.440 --> 00:46:24.059 So fair enough. 994 00:46:24.119 --> 00:46:27.000 It's interesting expanding what you're saying there, Peter, because 995 00:46:27.000 --> 00:46:31.739 listening to John Abbott, who plays Vince, his interview in the 996 00:46:31.739 --> 00:46:32.880 making of on the Blu-ray. 997 00:46:32.940 --> 00:46:33.960 Oh, right. 998 00:46:34.079 --> 00:46:34.860 Clang. 999 00:46:34.980 --> 00:46:39.480 And I believe is what's said at that point. 1000 00:46:39.840 --> 00:46:44.280 But he made the point is he loved and he loved doing it because it 1001 00:46:44.280 --> 00:46:45.599 was character driven. 1002 00:46:45.719 --> 00:46:50.639 And I think, Peter, you're absolutely right that as we get to the 1003 00:46:50.639 --> 00:46:55.800 Saywood era, the characters aren't fully rounded characters and 1004 00:46:55.800 --> 00:46:58.019 the whole thing becomes incident driven. 1005 00:46:58.019 --> 00:47:02.579 And I think, Nathan, that could be why you get these various dull 1006 00:47:02.579 --> 00:47:07.019 episode 3s because if you don't have strong characters, you can't 1007 00:47:07.019 --> 00:47:10.380 do that kind of padding in a nice way that you need to do in order 1008 00:47:10.380 --> 00:47:12.480 to flesh things out to 4 parts. 1009 00:47:12.539 --> 00:47:14.519 So I actually think it's all interlinked there. 1010 00:47:14.579 --> 00:47:18.179 I mean, the other thing that say would lax is Terrence's ability 1011 00:47:18.179 --> 00:47:19.860 to make new things happen. 1012 00:47:20.639 --> 00:47:24.300 But again, because the characters, but when the characters purely 1013 00:47:24.300 --> 00:47:27.480 become cyphers for the action rather than characters that actually 1014 00:47:27.480 --> 00:47:30.539 interact with each other, that's, I think, when things start to 1015 00:47:30.539 --> 00:47:33.179 sag and be a bit average. 1016 00:47:33.239 --> 00:47:35.460 If I can just something we haven't yet talked about, which is 1017 00:47:35.460 --> 00:47:39.420 essentially script driven, is actually how unusual the 1018 00:47:39.420 --> 00:47:40.440 cliffhangers are. 1019 00:47:40.679 --> 00:47:42.960 Um, for Doctor Who. 1020 00:47:43.019 --> 00:47:46.860 Like there's no crash zooms on the doctor's face as, you know, if 1021 00:47:46.860 --> 00:47:48.599 we don't do something quickly, the whole universe will be 1022 00:47:48.599 --> 00:47:49.559 destroyed kind of thing. 1023 00:47:49.619 --> 00:47:52.619 Even you know, they're all relatively understated. 1024 00:47:52.679 --> 00:47:55.019 They've often got kind of quiet moments of dialogue. 1025 00:47:55.079 --> 00:47:58.260 You know, episode ones, the shipwreck, which is a bit probably the 1026 00:47:58.260 --> 00:48:00.059 weakest because it's like, well, we don't even know who these 1027 00:48:00.059 --> 00:48:01.380 people are on the ship, so who cares? 1028 00:48:01.440 --> 00:48:03.900 Episode two, but just the wonderful thing with episode 2 with skin 1029 00:48:03.900 --> 00:48:05.460 sale. saying, what the devil was that? 1030 00:48:06.000 --> 00:48:09.780 And then the whole, we've locked it in here with us in episode 1031 00:48:09.780 --> 00:48:10.320 three. 1032 00:48:10.380 --> 00:48:12.960 That's the kind of cliffhanger, which can be so affecting. 1033 00:48:13.019 --> 00:48:14.460 There's no peril. 1034 00:48:14.519 --> 00:48:17.460 There's no doctoral companion at all. 1035 00:48:17.519 --> 00:48:19.980 And it is a what next cliffhanger. 1036 00:48:20.039 --> 00:48:20.940 And I think they're the best. 1037 00:48:21.000 --> 00:48:24.119 I mean, I think that the episode one cliffhanger suffers from some 1038 00:48:24.119 --> 00:48:25.619 lamentable model work. 1039 00:48:25.739 --> 00:48:31.920 But it is what the hell will happen now. that we've thrown these 1040 00:48:31.920 --> 00:48:36.179 other people into the mix, and then, I mean, the episode 2 1041 00:48:36.179 --> 00:48:40.320 Cliffhanger is literally skin sale asking, what was that? 1042 00:48:40.739 --> 00:48:42.840 And so what's going to happen? 1043 00:48:42.840 --> 00:48:46.619 But it's not, it's not the same as, of course, it's this way, which 1044 00:48:46.619 --> 00:48:47.940 is obviously... 1045 00:48:48.000 --> 00:48:49.619 That wasn't real. 1046 00:48:49.739 --> 00:48:51.000 I know it wasn't real. 1047 00:48:51.059 --> 00:48:53.519 It was real to me in 1985, Nathan. 1048 00:48:53.579 --> 00:48:55.860 And of course, the reason that you have those kinds of 1049 00:48:55.860 --> 00:48:57.960 cliffhangers is that this is not an action driven story. 1050 00:48:58.019 --> 00:49:01.139 So there's not the opportunity, not that Terence would ever be 1051 00:49:01.139 --> 00:49:04.079 this gauche, just to drop in a kill them. 1052 00:49:04.139 --> 00:49:04.679 Wait. 1053 00:49:04.739 --> 00:49:06.119 Kind of quick hang up. 1054 00:49:06.179 --> 00:49:09.179 I can't imagine who would do that, Peter. 1055 00:49:09.239 --> 00:49:13.079 Then it means that you have to use the high moments of drama as 1056 00:49:13.079 --> 00:49:15.179 cliffhangers, which, of course, we know is always the best. 1057 00:49:15.239 --> 00:49:18.420 And I feel like one of the things that sort of that links all that 1058 00:49:18.420 --> 00:49:21.780 together is when I was talking about genre earlier is that one of 1059 00:49:21.780 --> 00:49:24.960 the genres this focusses in on from start to finish is the sort of 1060 00:49:24.960 --> 00:49:29.039 tale of ratiocination, sort of Edgar Allen Poe, DuPont, sort of 1061 00:49:29.039 --> 00:49:31.619 like someone, they're here to investigate something. 1062 00:49:31.679 --> 00:49:33.000 And we don't know what that is. 1063 00:49:33.119 --> 00:49:36.539 So like each of these revelations that happens, it doesn't have to 1064 00:49:36.539 --> 00:49:37.260 be an action one. 1065 00:49:37.320 --> 00:49:39.900 It's just like, what is the next thing that is about to happen to 1066 00:49:39.900 --> 00:49:40.079 us? 1067 00:49:53.400 --> 00:49:58.139 So, yeah, in terms of Leila, to develop further the idea that she 1068 00:49:58.139 --> 00:50:01.380 is a double of the rooting, is that they are both, and you 1069 00:50:01.380 --> 00:50:03.480 mentioned this, when y'all mentioned this earlier, when she 1070 00:50:03.480 --> 00:50:07.019 changes clothes, like the rooting transforms, and she also 1071 00:50:07.019 --> 00:50:10.320 transforms, like, and it's made much more explicit in the 1072 00:50:10.320 --> 00:50:13.860 novelisation, because the narrator, I suppose, says that the 1073 00:50:13.860 --> 00:50:17.039 doctor told Leila that she cannot carry a knife when she's wearing 1074 00:50:17.039 --> 00:50:19.199 the Victorian dress or when she's wearing a dress. 1075 00:50:19.320 --> 00:50:22.559 When she takes Vince's clothes out of the chest and puts them on 1076 00:50:22.559 --> 00:50:25.619 she's rooting around and finds a knife and she's like, well, I'm 1077 00:50:25.619 --> 00:50:26.460 no longer wearing the dress. 1078 00:50:26.579 --> 00:50:30.059 And in the TV episode, you see her sort of like sitting down at 1079 00:50:30.059 --> 00:50:32.760 table, sort of measuring the knife after she's changed clothing 1080 00:50:32.760 --> 00:50:36.000 but it's again, it's much more explicitly that sartorial 1081 00:50:36.000 --> 00:50:39.119 distinction, and it's something that Terrence also like 1082 00:50:39.119 --> 00:50:42.300 foregrounds a lot more in the novelisation is that the way the 1083 00:50:42.300 --> 00:50:44.460 characters are dressed also reflects who they are. 1084 00:50:44.519 --> 00:50:48.239 Uh, so that idea of change and transformation is something that is 1085 00:50:48.239 --> 00:50:52.019 unique to her, uh, but also in terms of the tale of ratiocination 1086 00:50:52.019 --> 00:50:55.139 that idea of Tom or the scene where Tom walks into the lighthouse 1087 00:50:55.139 --> 00:50:56.880 for the 1st time and grabs the bowler hat. 1088 00:50:56.940 --> 00:51:00.539 Like there's something very, very detective about that. 1089 00:51:00.599 --> 00:51:02.699 And a Victorian detective and I really, really love it. 1090 00:51:02.760 --> 00:51:04.440 I love too. 1091 00:51:04.500 --> 00:51:08.639 Like Palmadale is wet when he arrives and we can't really achieve 1092 00:51:08.639 --> 00:51:12.420 that in the studio, but it's a brilliant kind of writerly idea 1093 00:51:12.420 --> 00:51:15.960 because he's wet because he's jumped in the water because he's so 1094 00:51:15.960 --> 00:51:19.619 keen to get onto land and save himself and doesn't care about 1095 00:51:19.619 --> 00:51:20.940 what's happening to anyone else. 1096 00:51:21.000 --> 00:51:24.420 And so that's visible on him, not so much in the studio. 1097 00:51:24.480 --> 00:51:25.980 We can't quite do that at this point. 1098 00:51:26.039 --> 00:51:29.400 Uh, but it is, you know, definitely something that he's done in 1099 00:51:29.400 --> 00:51:32.159 order to characterise, to characterise Palmerdale. 1100 00:51:32.219 --> 00:51:33.840 Speaking of the novelisation. 1101 00:51:33.900 --> 00:51:34.679 Melvin. 1102 00:51:34.739 --> 00:51:36.059 Here's a question for everyone. 1103 00:51:36.119 --> 00:51:39.719 What's the only season of the show that Terence novelizes in its 1104 00:51:39.719 --> 00:51:40.260 entirety? 1105 00:51:40.320 --> 00:51:41.519 Is it 15? 1106 00:51:41.579 --> 00:51:42.780 It is season 15. 1107 00:51:43.019 --> 00:51:43.739 Of course. 1108 00:51:44.579 --> 00:51:47.460 Yes, because Ian Marty does rival separation. yeah And he also 1109 00:51:47.460 --> 00:51:49.800 does the Arcan Space and the Santarian experiment. 1110 00:51:49.800 --> 00:51:53.400 And Philip Hinchcliffe does seeds of doom and mask and Dragra. 1111 00:51:53.460 --> 00:51:54.900 Otherwise, Terence does all of those seasons. 1112 00:51:54.960 --> 00:51:59.699 The novelisation of horrifying rock is as elegant and concise as 1113 00:51:59.699 --> 00:52:01.500 any of Terence's books. 1114 00:52:01.559 --> 00:52:04.739 He's always on great form when he's novelizing his own stories and 1115 00:52:04.739 --> 00:52:07.019 it's got one of those great Terence opening lines. 1116 00:52:07.079 --> 00:52:11.280 It began with a light in the sky. which is just, you know, so it's 1117 00:52:11.280 --> 00:52:12.840 so scene setting and evocative. 1118 00:52:12.900 --> 00:52:14.699 And what he could do just effortlessly. 1119 00:52:14.760 --> 00:52:18.840 But the horror fang rock also holds a special place in my heart 1120 00:52:18.840 --> 00:52:22.139 because I'd been a fan for a number of years. 1121 00:52:22.199 --> 00:52:23.639 I started watching Dogs Who very early. 1122 00:52:23.699 --> 00:52:29.039 I think I saw the repeat of season 11 in 1974 when I was just 2 or 1123 00:52:29.039 --> 00:52:29.699 3 years old. 1124 00:52:29.760 --> 00:52:33.900 So that was my sort of my 1st exposure to the program, watching it 1125 00:52:33.900 --> 00:52:34.380 with my family. 1126 00:52:34.440 --> 00:52:38.880 By the time we get to 1978 and we have those year round repeats 1127 00:52:38.880 --> 00:52:41.219 and I'm 6 years old, I was a fully fledged fan. 1128 00:52:41.280 --> 00:52:46.500 And so when my grandfather went back to the UK in January 1979. 1129 00:52:46.679 --> 00:52:50.639 I was asking him to find me Doctor Who books that they may have 1130 00:52:50.639 --> 00:52:51.780 that we didn't have yet. 1131 00:52:51.780 --> 00:52:54.659 And what he brought back for me were the novelisations of the 1132 00:52:54.659 --> 00:52:57.239 Santarin experiments and the horror of Fang Rock. 1133 00:52:57.300 --> 00:53:01.619 And so, seeing that cover, which I have actually hanging on my 1134 00:53:01.619 --> 00:53:05.820 wall right now, I'm looking at it, brings back indelible childhood 1135 00:53:05.820 --> 00:53:11.460 memories around family and the way that I grew up and the way that 1136 00:53:11.460 --> 00:53:13.920 my family were around me when I watched Doctor Who. 1137 00:53:13.980 --> 00:53:16.679 And I think horror Fang Walk is just the distillation of that for 1138 00:53:16.679 --> 00:53:16.920 me. 1139 00:53:16.980 --> 00:53:22.860 Can I say that I was watching Doctor Who for the 1st time in 1978 1140 00:53:22.860 --> 00:53:25.920 when we got those year-round repeats? 1141 00:53:25.920 --> 00:53:29.400 And I've observed on podcasts before that I was put through the 1142 00:53:29.400 --> 00:53:32.940 entirety of the Hingecliff era in a very, very short time. 1143 00:53:32.940 --> 00:53:35.699 And then, of course, you know, the beginning of the Williams era 1144 00:53:35.699 --> 00:53:36.059 as well. 1145 00:53:36.119 --> 00:53:39.300 That question, no use that the words put through, Nathan. 1146 00:53:39.360 --> 00:53:40.199 Yes. 1147 00:53:40.199 --> 00:53:43.679 What I'm saying is that I never stood a chance. 1148 00:53:43.739 --> 00:53:44.579 Do you know what I mean? 1149 00:53:44.639 --> 00:53:46.800 Like it was, it was, I think. 1150 00:53:46.860 --> 00:53:49.619 But my 1st experience of Doctor Who was the Doctor Who Monster 1151 00:53:49.619 --> 00:53:54.960 Book 2nd edition, which just covers the Hinchcliffe era. 1152 00:53:55.019 --> 00:53:59.760 And so when I tuned into Horror Fang Rock, I'm not sure whether it 1153 00:53:59.760 --> 00:54:03.780 was a repeat or not, but my knowledge of Doctor Who stopped with 1154 00:54:03.780 --> 00:54:05.460 the talons of Wang Chiang. 1155 00:54:05.519 --> 00:54:09.119 And so I was aware that this was the beginning of a new season in 1156 00:54:09.119 --> 00:54:11.219 a way that I was never aware of. 1157 00:54:11.340 --> 00:54:15.480 The 2nd Doctor Who Monster Bork was such a thing, an artefact of 1158 00:54:15.480 --> 00:54:18.659 its time, because not only did you have those gorgeous spreads on 1159 00:54:18.659 --> 00:54:22.139 basically every story, potentially Fera, but also it was like this 1160 00:54:22.139 --> 00:54:25.139 mystical lost artefact because it had the brain of Morbius and the 1161 00:54:25.139 --> 00:54:28.619 deadly assassin, which we never saw in the 70s. 1162 00:54:28.679 --> 00:54:32.340 But also in the particular way that things did back then. 1163 00:54:32.400 --> 00:54:34.139 It just got these hopeless things wrong. 1164 00:54:34.199 --> 00:54:37.440 Like it had terror of the Zygons placed before Genesis of the 1165 00:54:37.440 --> 00:54:37.980 Daleks. 1166 00:54:38.039 --> 00:54:39.900 And I love that kind of thing. 1167 00:54:39.960 --> 00:54:42.840 It was like the ABC in Australia showing things in their 1168 00:54:42.840 --> 00:54:45.539 production order, so we'd get this on current experiment before 1169 00:54:45.539 --> 00:54:47.099 the art. 1170 00:54:47.159 --> 00:54:48.960 Not just once, but a number of times. 1171 00:54:49.019 --> 00:54:51.840 Just some further context there, Nathan. 1172 00:54:51.900 --> 00:54:55.199 Interestingly, the ABC did 15 and 16. 1173 00:54:55.440 --> 00:54:58.500 They showed them for the 1st time together, rather like the way 1174 00:54:58.500 --> 00:54:59.880 they did later with 18 and 19. 1175 00:55:00.059 --> 00:55:03.059 So I was saying your draft, actually, singing the 1st time. 1176 00:55:03.119 --> 00:55:04.800 And actually, that's when I pick up the show. 1177 00:55:04.860 --> 00:55:06.360 I don't see that 1st run. 1178 00:55:06.420 --> 00:55:09.840 I pick it up in the middle of the repeat run that follows those 1179 00:55:09.840 --> 00:55:10.440 stories. 1180 00:55:10.500 --> 00:55:14.219 But the interesting thing is that the ABC actually shows, which is 1181 00:55:14.219 --> 00:55:15.780 what they actually did with season 17 as well. 1182 00:55:15.840 --> 00:55:20.340 They actually show season 15 and 16 immediately after, like 15 is 1183 00:55:20.340 --> 00:55:23.219 shown at the end of when it, the same year when it's been shown or 1184 00:55:23.219 --> 00:55:23.820 read at the beginning. 1185 00:55:23.880 --> 00:55:27.360 So you actually probably would have seen Horrorfanger Rock twice 1186 00:55:27.360 --> 00:55:28.019 in the same year. 1187 00:55:28.559 --> 00:55:33.599 But if I can just, I think we need to talk more deeply about the 1188 00:55:33.599 --> 00:55:37.559 novelisations and sort of what Terrence Dix has done to all of us 1189 00:55:37.559 --> 00:55:38.760 as fans. 1190 00:55:38.820 --> 00:55:43.260 And, you know, things are teased over the years about, you know 1191 00:55:43.260 --> 00:55:47.760 the wheezing, groaning sound and pleasant open face and certain 1192 00:55:47.760 --> 00:55:51.300 lines that he use, standard lines and subscriptions that he uses 1193 00:55:51.300 --> 00:55:52.619 to describe certain things. 1194 00:55:52.679 --> 00:55:53.579 That's okay. 1195 00:55:53.639 --> 00:55:57.420 But with things like that opening line, Peter, that you express 1196 00:55:57.420 --> 00:56:00.179 just then, it began with a light in the sky. 1197 00:56:00.239 --> 00:56:04.079 Instantly, from the 1st sentences of all of his novelisations. 1198 00:56:04.139 --> 00:56:06.599 I think Dalek Invasion of Earth has a similarly gripping 1st line 1199 00:56:06.599 --> 00:56:07.019 as well. 1200 00:56:07.079 --> 00:56:10.380 It does through the ruin of a city stalks the ruin of a man. 1201 00:56:10.440 --> 00:56:11.699 Yes, there you go. 1202 00:56:11.760 --> 00:56:13.199 Such brilliance. 1203 00:56:13.260 --> 00:56:14.039 He's really thought about that. 1204 00:56:14.159 --> 00:56:18.059 And, you know, he's he's mantra that, you know, he wanted us to be 1205 00:56:18.059 --> 00:56:20.159 able to we live it in our heads, basically. 1206 00:56:20.219 --> 00:56:22.380 And we could. 1207 00:56:22.440 --> 00:56:25.920 Now, I don't know whether his writing style is what informed my 1208 00:56:25.920 --> 00:56:29.760 brain as to how Doctor Who should read when looked at on the page 1209 00:56:29.760 --> 00:56:31.679 because of course he writes the vast majority of them. 1210 00:56:31.739 --> 00:56:33.539 But I actually think it's more than that. 1211 00:56:33.599 --> 00:56:38.519 I actually think he most accurately captures the show on paper 1212 00:56:38.519 --> 00:56:41.820 even compared to some of the other great novelisation writers like 1213 00:56:41.820 --> 00:56:43.559 Ian Master, for instance, and Malcolm Hall. 1214 00:56:43.619 --> 00:56:46.980 He recreates the show on the page in a way that an 8 year old, a 7 1215 00:56:46.980 --> 00:56:51.719 and 8 year old, is able to understand and genuinely we live it in 1216 00:56:51.719 --> 00:56:52.260 our heads. 1217 00:56:52.320 --> 00:56:55.980 And the cover, the covers were important to that as well. 1218 00:56:56.039 --> 00:56:59.519 And I think horror fang rock, as you said, Peter, I think is a 1219 00:56:59.519 --> 00:57:05.579 beautiful distillation of capturing the mood of the story in that 1220 00:57:05.579 --> 00:57:06.239 exact same way. 1221 00:57:06.300 --> 00:57:09.900 It's Jeff Cummins, who does brilliant work on things like Talons 1222 00:57:09.900 --> 00:57:14.460 Wen Chayang, and that great recover of the dinosaur invasion, which 1223 00:57:14.460 --> 00:57:16.559 has the T-Rex in front of St. 1224 00:57:16.559 --> 00:57:18.840 Paul's Cadet Clack, the non-clack one. 1225 00:57:18.900 --> 00:57:22.619 Yeah, he does beautiful work and it's so evocative and it's like 1226 00:57:22.619 --> 00:57:24.179 I... 1227 00:57:24.239 --> 00:57:27.119 It's like the effects work in the story itself. 1228 00:57:27.179 --> 00:57:31.860 Not only those shots of the lighthouse technically proficient, they 1229 00:57:31.860 --> 00:57:32.760 suit the atmosphere. 1230 00:57:33.059 --> 00:57:36.659 And at the risk of sort of taking this to the nth degree. 1231 00:57:36.719 --> 00:57:40.559 Even the fact that for a lot of them, the four-part stories are 1232 00:57:40.559 --> 00:57:41.820 split into 12 chapters. 1233 00:57:41.880 --> 00:57:44.519 One of them may be called escape to danger. 1234 00:57:44.579 --> 00:57:46.860 But even putting those to one side. 1235 00:57:46.920 --> 00:57:48.360 The nightmare begins. 1236 00:57:48.840 --> 00:57:50.400 Indeed. 1237 00:57:50.460 --> 00:57:53.940 But, but, you know, the fact that, you know, I was able to, as a 1238 00:57:53.940 --> 00:57:57.960 child, relive those stories and have the episodes divided into 1239 00:57:57.960 --> 00:58:00.420 three, and you could reach the end. 1240 00:58:00.480 --> 00:58:03.059 The cliffhanger's all matched up and it was all beautifully paced 1241 00:58:03.059 --> 00:58:03.360 out. 1242 00:58:03.420 --> 00:58:07.260 And I actually wanted to say that with my early novelisations, it 1243 00:58:07.260 --> 00:58:10.320 took a while for me to start wanting normalisations of stories I 1244 00:58:10.320 --> 00:58:10.980 had not seen. 1245 00:58:11.039 --> 00:58:16.139 I really just, you know, I wasn't buying or getting people to buy 1246 00:58:16.139 --> 00:58:17.820 for me for birthdays and Christmases. 1247 00:58:17.940 --> 00:58:23.699 I wasn't getting to buy abominable snowmen or, you know, the 1248 00:58:23.699 --> 00:58:25.139 crusades or something, you know. 1249 00:58:25.199 --> 00:58:28.679 And the ones that I had acquired, like the Dale Convasions Earth 1250 00:58:28.679 --> 00:58:30.840 which was like, no, this is not that thing that I saw on a Sunday 1251 00:58:30.840 --> 00:58:33.840 afternoon with Peter Cushing in it, even though the cover suggests 1252 00:58:33.840 --> 00:58:34.199 otherwise. 1253 00:58:34.260 --> 00:58:37.619 Or things like that, I had to be a bit older to be able to read 1254 00:58:37.619 --> 00:58:40.679 like sort of more like 9 before I started reading those 1255 00:58:40.679 --> 00:58:43.500 novelisations like Webber Fear, which were from stuff that I 1256 00:58:43.500 --> 00:58:44.039 hadn't seen. 1257 00:58:44.099 --> 00:58:48.599 I cannot overstate how significant that was to my grasp of the 1258 00:58:48.599 --> 00:58:49.320 English language. 1259 00:58:49.380 --> 00:58:50.400 Absolutely. 1260 00:58:50.460 --> 00:58:53.519 And Simon, I think that point that you made about Terrence 1261 00:58:53.519 --> 00:58:54.119 writing. 1262 00:58:54.179 --> 00:58:56.699 So let an eight-year-old can visualise it. 1263 00:58:56.760 --> 00:58:59.880 The importance of having that structure of 12 chapters broken up 1264 00:58:59.880 --> 00:59:02.159 into 3 chapters per episode. 1265 00:59:02.219 --> 00:59:05.219 That's so important for young minds to be able to recognise that 1266 00:59:05.219 --> 00:59:08.519 structure and to anticipate it and to know that the cliffhanger is 1267 00:59:08.519 --> 00:59:11.039 coming when you're a couple of pages before the end of chapter 3. 1268 00:59:11.219 --> 00:59:15.599 Look, I had a very advanced reading age when I was young, like 9 1269 00:59:15.599 --> 00:59:16.500 or 10 years old. 1270 00:59:16.559 --> 00:59:19.260 And I'm certain that reading the novelisations was the reason 1271 00:59:19.260 --> 00:59:19.800 why. 1272 00:59:19.860 --> 00:59:24.239 Terence is not only an economical storyteller, but his grammar and 1273 00:59:24.239 --> 00:59:27.420 sentence structure and verbiage were always on point as well. 1274 00:59:27.480 --> 00:59:29.880 And I'm certain that they taught me more about the English 1275 00:59:29.880 --> 00:59:31.559 language than my teachers did. 1276 00:59:31.619 --> 00:59:32.699 100%. 1277 00:59:32.760 --> 00:59:36.239 I remember, look, I was collecting the novelisations from a very 1278 00:59:36.239 --> 00:59:39.000 early age, as I said earlier, you know, asking my grandfather to 1279 00:59:39.000 --> 00:59:42.780 get them from Britain when I just turned seven. 1280 00:59:42.840 --> 00:59:47.280 And even though we had some Pertwhees and the 1st 4 Tom Baker 1281 00:59:47.280 --> 00:59:48.900 seasons on annual repeat. 1282 00:59:48.960 --> 00:59:51.780 The books were sort of the tangible Doctor Who that I could own. 1283 00:59:51.840 --> 00:59:54.840 And that's important to you as a child, that the fact that you're 1284 00:59:54.840 --> 00:59:57.659 not just waiting for a repeat, which may or may not come round, but 1285 00:59:57.659 --> 00:59:59.159 you actually have them and own them. 1286 00:59:59.280 --> 01:00:03.599 So every week or month between like 1978 and 1981. 1287 01:00:03.780 --> 01:00:06.719 I'd be spending my pocket money on adding another title to my 1288 01:00:06.719 --> 01:00:09.840 collection until I was entirely caught up and then only buying the 1289 01:00:09.840 --> 01:00:10.380 new releases. 1290 01:00:10.440 --> 01:00:14.460 So sitting in the bookstore, looking through the shelves, deciding 1291 01:00:14.460 --> 01:00:17.340 which one I'd like to buy that week or that month. 1292 01:00:17.400 --> 01:00:21.360 No, it's an indelible happy memory for me. 1293 01:00:21.420 --> 01:00:23.639 Yes, I know, but agony, you couldn't have all of them. 1294 01:00:23.699 --> 01:00:24.480 Like, not. 1295 01:00:24.539 --> 01:00:27.420 It's like, you know, it's that thing of which one will I buy with 1296 01:00:27.420 --> 01:00:28.860 I buy this one or this one, you know? 1297 01:00:28.920 --> 01:00:33.239 I left the Dalek Invasion of Earth to one of the last ones and I'd 1298 01:00:33.239 --> 01:00:35.940 sort of reconcile myself that I'd have to buy this one now. 1299 01:00:36.059 --> 01:00:38.280 And then I saw the making of Doctor Who. 1300 01:00:38.280 --> 01:00:41.820 And all ideas of buying the Dalek Invasion of Jettisoned, as I had 1301 01:00:41.820 --> 01:00:43.619 the making of Doctor Who in my hands. 1302 01:00:43.679 --> 01:00:47.340 Look, I remember reading as a child. 1303 01:00:47.400 --> 01:00:51.179 So I just bought the 2 latest novelisations to come out, which 1304 01:00:51.179 --> 01:00:53.280 were 2 Men Saidemen and the Time Warrior. 1305 01:00:53.400 --> 01:00:56.519 And I remember reading The Time Warrior in a car trip to 1306 01:00:56.519 --> 01:00:57.119 Canberra. 1307 01:00:57.179 --> 01:01:01.199 So I would have been about, I would say, 6 years old. 1308 01:01:01.260 --> 01:01:03.119 My brother would have been 10 years old. 1309 01:01:03.179 --> 01:01:04.860 He was reading Two of the Cybermen. 1310 01:01:04.920 --> 01:01:08.039 Of course, he was going through it more quickly than me because I 1311 01:01:08.039 --> 01:01:09.059 was 6 and he was 10. 1312 01:01:09.360 --> 01:01:13.679 And I insisted halfway through that we swap books because to my 1313 01:01:13.679 --> 01:01:16.500 young brain, obviously, the term of the sidemen was the easier 1314 01:01:16.500 --> 01:01:19.199 book to read because he was getting through it more quickly than I 1315 01:01:19.199 --> 01:01:19.440 was. 1316 01:01:19.500 --> 01:01:24.659 And I just have so many memories around that kind of thing, taking 1317 01:01:24.659 --> 01:01:28.440 all the books off my shelf on a Sunday afternoon, spreading them 1318 01:01:28.440 --> 01:01:33.119 round the floor so that I could appreciate the artwork, swapping 1319 01:01:33.119 --> 01:01:36.840 the order from alphabetical to chronological and then back again 1320 01:01:36.840 --> 01:01:39.719 so that they looked different on the bookshelf with the different 1321 01:01:39.719 --> 01:01:40.380 spines. 1322 01:01:40.500 --> 01:01:45.059 They were so important to my childhood, and they remained so 1323 01:01:45.059 --> 01:01:48.719 important that, as you guys will know, having been over to my 1324 01:01:48.719 --> 01:01:54.000 house, I have all of those brilliant Chris Achilios covers in mug 1325 01:01:54.000 --> 01:02:00.179 form and it still gives me, it still gives me a tiny little 1326 01:02:00.179 --> 01:02:00.719 thrill. 1327 01:02:00.780 --> 01:02:04.559 Every time I make a cup of tea and I open up that cupboard and see 1328 01:02:04.559 --> 01:02:07.500 all of that artwork in front of me and I have to split 2nd 1329 01:02:07.500 --> 01:02:09.780 decision of, what shall I drink from today? 1330 01:02:09.840 --> 01:02:12.179 The claws of Axos or the Arkin space. 1331 01:02:12.420 --> 01:02:15.659 It's interesting. the whole laying them out on the floor thing. 1332 01:02:15.719 --> 01:02:18.539 I mean, I would never have thought to put them in alphabetic order 1333 01:02:18.539 --> 01:02:20.340 because that would have just been perverse and wrong. 1334 01:02:21.659 --> 01:02:26.400 They were always, they were always in incorrect broadcast order 1335 01:02:26.400 --> 01:02:29.099 according to the making of Doctor Who and later the 20th 1336 01:02:29.099 --> 01:02:30.300 anniversary radio time special. 1337 01:02:30.360 --> 01:02:34.320 But the pattern that they form on the floor. 1338 01:02:34.380 --> 01:02:37.559 And I know that, you know, various books have different covers and 1339 01:02:37.559 --> 01:02:39.119 you know, different editions and stuff like that. 1340 01:02:39.179 --> 01:02:41.760 But, you know, obviously the ones that I had were the correct 1341 01:02:41.760 --> 01:02:44.940 versions, but just seeing the patterns and seeing the holes, the 1342 01:02:44.940 --> 01:02:49.619 gaps, because those stories, either I hadn't bought it yet, or it 1343 01:02:49.619 --> 01:02:50.880 wasn't released yet. 1344 01:02:50.940 --> 01:02:55.079 And it was that fascinating moment where you sort of realise as a 1345 01:02:55.079 --> 01:02:57.480 child that they're not just all available. 1346 01:02:57.599 --> 01:02:59.099 They're not just all there. 1347 01:02:59.159 --> 01:03:01.739 Like you suddenly, and I can't remember when I did. 1348 01:03:01.800 --> 01:03:06.780 I think it may actually only be when the neon logo appears on 1349 01:03:06.780 --> 01:03:07.920 something like the as. 1350 01:03:08.159 --> 01:03:09.960 Well, it wouldn't be that late, but you know. 1351 01:03:09.960 --> 01:03:11.159 The Sunmakers. right. 1352 01:03:11.219 --> 01:03:13.619 When the sunmaker suddenly appears with the neon logo, It's like 1353 01:03:13.619 --> 01:03:14.280 that's strange. 1354 01:03:14.340 --> 01:03:17.460 And then, and then I think there's a there's a trout or a heart or 1355 01:03:17.460 --> 01:03:19.139 something, which has a neon logo on. 1356 01:03:19.199 --> 01:03:23.340 And then you sort of almost in with some horror that they're not 1357 01:03:23.340 --> 01:03:25.800 just all available because, you know, you'd go into the bookstore 1358 01:03:25.800 --> 01:03:28.619 you'd go into Angus and Robinson, hoping to find, this time, will 1359 01:03:28.619 --> 01:03:30.539 Dalek Master Plan actually be there? 1360 01:03:30.599 --> 01:03:36.119 You know, that was quite a way, you know, but it's just the 1361 01:03:36.119 --> 01:03:37.559 patterns they form on the floor and the gaps. 1362 01:03:37.619 --> 01:03:40.440 And you know, I can kind of close my eyes and sort of see where 1363 01:03:40.440 --> 01:03:42.719 those early gaps were, you know, edge of destruction, for 1364 01:03:42.719 --> 01:03:42.960 example. 1365 01:03:43.559 --> 01:03:47.219 There's also something I think about the connection between the 1366 01:03:47.219 --> 01:03:50.820 way that a child's mind and a fan's mind works. 1367 01:03:50.880 --> 01:03:55.440 And so I remember in the aforementioned laying out of all of the 1368 01:03:55.440 --> 01:03:55.739 books. 1369 01:03:55.800 --> 01:03:59.039 I remember asking my mother if I could count Planet of the Spiders 1370 01:03:59.039 --> 01:04:03.179 as a Joe Grant book because she's in the 1st chapter as a prologue 1371 01:04:03.179 --> 01:04:04.980 where she's up the Amazon with Cliff. 1372 01:04:05.039 --> 01:04:07.139 And my mother said very kindly. 1373 01:04:07.199 --> 01:04:10.139 Yes, of course you can count it as Joe Grant book, she said 1374 01:04:10.139 --> 01:04:13.260 because there's lots of Sarah stories, but there's only 4 Joe 1375 01:04:13.260 --> 01:04:18.119 stories, because of course, the only stories that we ever saw were 1376 01:04:18.119 --> 01:04:21.300 Day of the Dialects, the 3 Doctors, the Carnival Monsters, and the 1377 01:04:21.300 --> 01:04:21.900 Green Death. 1378 01:04:21.960 --> 01:04:25.980 So not only did she have enough working knowledge of the series to 1379 01:04:25.980 --> 01:04:30.119 be able to tell me that, but that satisfies you in a very child 1380 01:04:30.119 --> 01:04:34.380 friendly and fan friendly way, the fact that you can put all of 1381 01:04:34.380 --> 01:04:38.099 these things together in this way and then create law around them 1382 01:04:38.099 --> 01:04:38.639 if you wish. 1383 01:04:38.699 --> 01:04:42.360 It's one more reason why the novelisations are so important for 1384 01:04:42.360 --> 01:04:43.260 fans of our vintage. 1385 01:04:43.320 --> 01:04:47.579 I have to say that that's one of the things that I've liked in 1386 01:04:47.579 --> 01:04:52.260 recent times where the practice of novelizing the story says come 1387 01:04:52.260 --> 01:04:57.119 back, that it was really avoided for quite a lot of the history of 1388 01:04:57.119 --> 01:05:01.679 the new series and now we're going back and seeing novelisations. 1389 01:05:01.739 --> 01:05:04.500 And like I don't know that they'll ever have the role that they 1390 01:05:04.500 --> 01:05:08.519 had for us in our childhood because you can just watch the show. 1391 01:05:09.239 --> 01:05:14.159 I did read someone this week describing Terrence's our videotape 1392 01:05:14.159 --> 01:05:17.760 recorder, which he was in sort of many ways. 1393 01:05:17.820 --> 01:05:20.340 My experience is a bit different from yours. 1394 01:05:20.400 --> 01:05:25.079 I only ever bought the Pertwee and Baker ones because they were 1395 01:05:25.079 --> 01:05:26.880 the only doctors that I knew. 1396 01:05:26.940 --> 01:05:30.360 And I frequently bought novels of stories that I hadn't seen 1397 01:05:30.360 --> 01:05:30.719 before. 1398 01:05:30.780 --> 01:05:33.059 And so plenty of the Pertwee era. 1399 01:05:33.119 --> 01:05:38.280 I had a lavish imaginative version in my head when I 1st came to 1400 01:05:38.280 --> 01:05:40.559 watch the actual show. 1401 01:05:41.340 --> 01:05:44.639 Lavish imaginative version you watched on TV. 1402 01:05:44.699 --> 01:05:46.860 Yes, yeah, yeah. colony in space. 1403 01:05:46.920 --> 01:05:48.420 For example. 1404 01:05:48.539 --> 01:05:49.559 Wash your mouth out. 1405 01:05:50.340 --> 01:05:53.460 And I feel like that's one of the things that we should definitely 1406 01:05:53.460 --> 01:05:56.099 talk about about this novelisation in particular is that 1407 01:05:56.099 --> 01:06:00.900 lavishness because there is a real, like, relish that Terrence Dix 1408 01:06:00.900 --> 01:06:03.239 takes in this particular novelisation. 1409 01:06:03.300 --> 01:06:06.420 Like, you spend, like, we were talking earlier about the scripts 1410 01:06:06.420 --> 01:06:09.599 being very lean and efficient, like, and I feel like that leanness 1411 01:06:09.599 --> 01:06:13.500 and efficiency only stands to the novel's benefit when he comes to 1412 01:06:13.500 --> 01:06:16.260 write it because, you know, you know, I've listened to enough 1413 01:06:16.260 --> 01:06:18.840 podcasts about novelisations to know that some of them basically 1414 01:06:18.840 --> 01:06:22.139 are the episode transcribed into book form. 1415 01:06:22.199 --> 01:06:25.320 Whereas this is, this is much, much more than that. 1416 01:06:25.380 --> 01:06:29.880 Like you spend a lot of time with the lighthouse keepers at the 1417 01:06:29.880 --> 01:06:31.199 beginning before anything happens. 1418 01:06:31.260 --> 01:06:35.039 Like I started like feeling like I was watching that Willem Defoe 1419 01:06:35.039 --> 01:06:37.500 Robert Pattinson movie after a while and I was wondering when they 1420 01:06:37.500 --> 01:06:38.219 were going to start making out. 1421 01:06:38.280 --> 01:06:41.519 Like, I'm like, this is this is like a lot more than you get in 1422 01:06:41.519 --> 01:06:42.179 the TV show. 1423 01:06:42.599 --> 01:06:46.260 Maybe it's a lot more than you get in the TV episodes that you 1424 01:06:46.260 --> 01:06:50.099 that you really get a sense of throughout the novelisation that 1425 01:06:50.099 --> 01:06:54.480 every single character is on edge. there's a sort of paranoid 1426 01:06:54.480 --> 01:06:58.860 facet to the way that the novel works that is just, it's not there 1427 01:06:58.860 --> 01:06:59.820 in the... 1428 01:06:59.880 --> 01:07:03.900 I mean, it is, but in a much more limited way, in a way that the 1429 01:07:03.900 --> 01:07:06.900 novel, like Terrence is really allowed to develop stuff. 1430 01:07:06.900 --> 01:07:10.139 Like, you don't get any mention of an alien, like you see in the 1431 01:07:10.139 --> 01:07:13.559 TV story, like Leila's looking, and she sees the rooting sort of 1432 01:07:13.559 --> 01:07:14.579 squirrelling around. 1433 01:07:14.639 --> 01:07:17.579 There's none of the alien mentioned until like halfway through the 1434 01:07:17.579 --> 01:07:21.539 novelisation and you don't see a rooting until like 3 quarters of 1435 01:07:21.539 --> 01:07:22.320 the way through the novel. 1436 01:07:22.380 --> 01:07:26.400 So in the novelisation, like the suspense of it is drawn out much 1437 01:07:26.400 --> 01:07:26.699 more. 1438 01:07:26.760 --> 01:07:30.659 The narrative is allowed to breathe and develop in a way that the 1439 01:07:30.659 --> 01:07:32.940 TV story, you really have to get to the next cliffhanger. 1440 01:07:33.000 --> 01:07:35.880 But at the same time, Melvin, what he does in those 1441 01:07:35.880 --> 01:07:36.840 novelisations. 1442 01:07:36.900 --> 01:07:40.079 And I think I can acknowledge that maybe there are some lesser 1443 01:07:40.079 --> 01:07:43.079 ones of his where it is kind of he said and she said after the 1444 01:07:43.079 --> 01:07:43.559 dialogue. 1445 01:07:43.619 --> 01:07:45.539 But what I think of something like horrifying rock, and that kind 1446 01:07:45.539 --> 01:07:48.900 of the classic era of the classic novelisations, is that that 1447 01:07:48.900 --> 01:07:53.219 extra flesh that he adds never gets in the way of the overall pace 1448 01:07:53.219 --> 01:07:54.960 of the story. 1449 01:07:55.019 --> 01:07:59.159 So there are all these beautiful paragraphs which contain volumes 1450 01:07:59.159 --> 01:08:01.679 if you know what I mean, because it captures so much additional 1451 01:08:01.679 --> 01:08:04.619 character and backstory without saying, well, now we're going to 1452 01:08:04.619 --> 01:08:07.380 stop for 10 pages while we give the backstory of Vince. 1453 01:08:07.440 --> 01:08:08.099 Do you know what I mean? 1454 01:08:08.159 --> 01:08:12.659 which is what I think some of the, the, the McCoy era novelizers 1455 01:08:12.659 --> 01:08:13.559 start to do. 1456 01:08:13.619 --> 01:08:14.820 It starts to become a bit pretentious. 1457 01:08:14.880 --> 01:08:17.640 But it's interesting with my relationship with anomalizations 1458 01:08:17.640 --> 01:08:21.180 despite all that love and affection that I still have for them. 1459 01:08:21.239 --> 01:08:24.600 But I have them in a nostalgic way, for this is something that was 1460 01:08:24.600 --> 01:08:28.020 an era in time because it was the replacement for the show because 1461 01:08:28.020 --> 01:08:31.800 as you say, Nathan, it was our, it was our VHS tapes. 1462 01:08:32.460 --> 01:08:36.239 But the time we get into the 2nd half of the 80s, when I'm 1463 01:08:36.239 --> 01:08:38.760 starting to be in a position to buy enough videotapes to basically 1464 01:08:38.760 --> 01:08:42.899 record everything that is transmitted, it basically the 1465 01:08:42.899 --> 01:08:47.340 novelization's very quickly just fall away and I lose. 1466 01:08:47.399 --> 01:08:50.760 In fact, I've never even read some of those very last ones, like 1467 01:08:50.760 --> 01:08:52.979 the Curse of Fenrik or Battlefield or whatever. 1468 01:08:53.039 --> 01:08:54.899 I just didn't need to. 1469 01:08:54.960 --> 01:08:57.779 And so it's just a moment in time, which is just basically 1470 01:08:57.779 --> 01:09:00.300 irreplaceable and we can never, we can never bring it back. 1471 01:09:00.359 --> 01:09:05.460 You know, there's a moment in the broadcast show where Vince burns 1472 01:09:05.460 --> 01:09:09.659 the money and because he's the only person there, nothing is said 1473 01:09:09.659 --> 01:09:12.479 in the dialogue or anything like that about why he's doing that. 1474 01:09:12.539 --> 01:09:19.920 And because genre TV like this sometimes, uh, overexplains, like 1475 01:09:19.920 --> 01:09:25.020 it tends, I think, to hold our hands in a way that really 1476 01:09:25.020 --> 01:09:29.100 shouldn't be necessary, it's actually mentioned on the TARDIS 1477 01:09:29.100 --> 01:09:32.100 WIKEA page that this happens, but no explanation is given. 1478 01:09:32.159 --> 01:09:34.140 And then I know, I know. 1479 01:09:34.199 --> 01:09:40.380 And uh, that Terrence does give the explanation for it uh, in the 1480 01:09:40.380 --> 01:09:43.079 in the thing and it's quite, it's quite a detailed explanation 1481 01:09:43.079 --> 01:09:43.560 isn't it? 1482 01:09:43.619 --> 01:09:47.159 Like he imagines what might happen to him. if he's discovered and 1483 01:09:47.159 --> 01:09:49.560 he's thought to have robbed him and pushed him off the lamp 1484 01:09:49.560 --> 01:09:50.159 gallery. 1485 01:09:50.220 --> 01:09:56.520 So he does add things in, but it did strike me as actually quite a 1486 01:09:56.520 --> 01:09:58.079 good moment, a rare moment. 1487 01:09:58.140 --> 01:10:00.720 You know, I watch a lot of Doctor Who and a lot of Star Trek, and 1488 01:10:00.720 --> 01:10:03.840 it's kind of like we're constantly being told things that we just 1489 01:10:03.840 --> 01:10:04.560 saw. 1490 01:10:04.560 --> 01:10:09.000 And this was actually a nice moment where that wasn't possible. 1491 01:10:09.000 --> 01:10:13.680 And it clearly freaked out the Tardis Wikia editor. 1492 01:10:13.739 --> 01:10:17.159 The TARDIS WIKEA page is only interested in text, never some 1493 01:10:17.159 --> 01:10:17.699 text. 1494 01:10:18.239 --> 01:10:19.739 And I think this as a child. 1495 01:10:19.800 --> 01:10:22.800 I was confused as to why he was burning the money. 1496 01:10:22.859 --> 01:10:25.380 I have said, well, just pocket the £100 or the £50 or whatever it 1497 01:10:25.380 --> 01:10:27.659 was, but maybe that says more about me than it does about the 1498 01:10:27.659 --> 01:10:27.960 show. 1499 01:10:28.439 --> 01:10:31.979 Also, what we were talking about, about kind of them being a 1500 01:10:31.979 --> 01:10:33.840 moment in time, the novelisations. 1501 01:10:33.899 --> 01:10:37.560 I think horror fang rock is on the cusp of something because the 1502 01:10:37.560 --> 01:10:41.819 novelisations that are very fondly remembered by people of our age 1503 01:10:41.819 --> 01:10:45.899 um, are the ones from basically the start through to the end of 1504 01:10:45.899 --> 01:10:49.680 1978, and horror fang rock was released in mid-1978. 1505 01:10:49.920 --> 01:10:53.340 Something goes wrong after that and I think it's probably a 1506 01:10:53.340 --> 01:10:54.420 multitude of factors. 1507 01:10:54.479 --> 01:10:57.060 They lost Chris Keios and Jeff Cummins from the covers and they 1508 01:10:57.060 --> 01:10:59.880 were 2 of the interpretably best cover artists. 1509 01:10:59.939 --> 01:11:02.760 And then you got sort of a series of 2nd string people who didn't 1510 01:11:02.760 --> 01:11:03.539 do such great covers. 1511 01:11:03.600 --> 01:11:05.760 So you got Image of the Fandal and Underworld. 1512 01:11:05.819 --> 01:11:06.899 So they start to lose like that. 1513 01:11:06.960 --> 01:11:10.319 Yeah, and so they lose their distinctive identity, they're not 1514 01:11:10.319 --> 01:11:13.140 they're not attractive artwork in their own rights. 1515 01:11:13.199 --> 01:11:16.619 But also, you do start to lose other people. 1516 01:11:16.680 --> 01:11:18.239 You lose Malcolm Holk from the writing. 1517 01:11:18.300 --> 01:11:21.720 You've only really got Ian Marty, um, supplementing Terence Dix 1518 01:11:21.720 --> 01:11:23.279 and Sir Terence having to do them more quickly. 1519 01:11:23.340 --> 01:11:26.819 I think maybe after 5 or 6 years, Terence has lost a little bit of 1520 01:11:26.819 --> 01:11:29.939 interest in kind of crafting 10 or 12 stories a year. 1521 01:11:30.000 --> 01:11:34.800 But for whatever reason, the novelization's imperial phase ends 1522 01:11:34.800 --> 01:11:39.239 around here and overnight at the end of 1978, the quality of the 1523 01:11:39.239 --> 01:11:41.520 books just drops precipitously. 1524 01:11:41.640 --> 01:11:44.279 So the last couple of Terrence does before that are the Time 1525 01:11:44.279 --> 01:11:47.220 Warrior, Death to the Daleks, and the Android Invasion, all of 1526 01:11:47.220 --> 01:11:50.819 which are excellent retellings of the stories involved. 1527 01:11:50.880 --> 01:11:53.939 And then suddenly we get a bunch of season 14 and 15 stories that 1528 01:11:53.939 --> 01:11:57.479 are thin and basic, like robots of death, which you would think 1529 01:11:57.479 --> 01:12:00.180 would lend itself to a great Terence novelisation. 1530 01:12:00.300 --> 01:12:02.159 It's one of the slimmest, I think. 1531 01:12:02.220 --> 01:12:04.800 I think it comes in at 108 pages or something, appalling. 1532 01:12:04.859 --> 01:12:08.520 That's right The word counts on some of them, drops to like 22,000 1533 01:12:08.520 --> 01:12:12.300 words, whereas frequently, you know, the face of evil was 26,000. 1534 01:12:12.479 --> 01:12:15.779 So another 4000 words on a same length story. 1535 01:12:15.840 --> 01:12:18.119 Talons is more than 30,000 words. 1536 01:12:18.119 --> 01:12:21.300 And that's done, you know, 6 months before that was released. 1537 01:12:21.359 --> 01:12:25.619 There's something about that era in particular, and it's a reason 1538 01:12:25.619 --> 01:12:25.979 why. 1539 01:12:26.039 --> 01:12:30.359 I love having those mugs on my shelf from that era, is that from 1540 01:12:30.359 --> 01:12:35.159 basically the republishing of those 3 Hartnell books and the 1st 1541 01:12:35.159 --> 01:12:39.720 pert wee books, right up until the end of 1978, which is Death and 1542 01:12:39.720 --> 01:12:43.680 Alex Time Warrior, Horror Fang Rock, that is a certain period in 1543 01:12:43.680 --> 01:12:48.119 time where the quality matched what our expectations were and what 1544 01:12:48.119 --> 01:12:48.840 we hoped for. 1545 01:12:48.899 --> 01:12:51.539 And in some ways, it tracks the series itself. 1546 01:12:51.600 --> 01:12:55.079 You get people who've lost faith with the series at various parts 1547 01:12:55.079 --> 01:12:57.119 um, and you'd see it in the sweep of fandom. 1548 01:12:57.180 --> 01:12:59.579 There was a whole bunch of people who kind of think the show went 1549 01:12:59.579 --> 01:13:01.739 off the rails during the Graham Williams years. 1550 01:13:01.800 --> 01:13:05.100 There's more who think it went off the rails during season 22 or 1551 01:13:05.100 --> 01:13:07.319 season 23 or the McCoy era. 1552 01:13:07.439 --> 01:13:10.020 And I just think if there is an imperial phase for the 1553 01:13:10.020 --> 01:13:13.859 novelisations, it's absolutely that period with all of those great 1554 01:13:13.859 --> 01:13:16.020 covers and including Horror of Fang Rock. 1555 01:13:16.079 --> 01:13:20.220 And also, of course, 3 or 4 top selling titles were released in 1556 01:13:20.220 --> 01:13:21.119 1976. 1557 01:13:21.300 --> 01:13:25.140 Genesis the Daleks, the Web of Fear, Planets of the Daleks, which 1558 01:13:25.140 --> 01:13:29.760 remains possibly the most Doctor Who story of all time, and the 1559 01:13:29.760 --> 01:13:31.260 most Doctor Who novelisation of all time. 1560 01:13:58.319 --> 01:14:00.000 Well, that's all the time we have this week. 1561 01:14:00.060 --> 01:14:03.239 We'll be back next week to tell the story of how the vampire 1562 01:14:03.239 --> 01:14:07.199 mutation finally made it to our screens, as state of decay. 1563 01:14:07.619 --> 01:14:11.460 In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts 1564 01:14:11.460 --> 01:14:15.119 and you can keep up with us on our website, 500-year diary.com 1565 01:14:15.119 --> 01:14:18.600 where you'll find our social media links, as well as links to all 1566 01:14:18.600 --> 01:14:22.199 of our other podcasts, including our other Doctor Who podcasts 1567 01:14:22.199 --> 01:14:26.039 Flight through Entirety, and the 2nd grade, and Bountiful Human 1568 01:14:26.039 --> 01:14:26.340 Empire. 1569 01:14:27.239 --> 01:14:33.119 Until next time, remember that though we hunted high and low and 1570 01:14:33.119 --> 01:14:39.359 hunted everywhere, of the 3 men's fate, we found no trace of any 1571 01:14:39.359 --> 01:14:46.260 kind in any place, but a door ajar, and an untouched meal, and an 1572 01:14:46.260 --> 01:14:47.640 over toppled chair. 1573 01:14:48.359 --> 01:14:51.659 Thank you very much for listening and good night. 1574 01:14:51.720 --> 01:14:53.039 Good night. 1575 01:14:53.100 --> 01:14:53.579 Good night. 1576 01:14:53.640 --> 01:14:55.380 It's green. 1577 01:15:08.039 --> 01:15:12.899 That was 500 year diary, starring Nathan Bottomley, Peter Griffith 1578 01:15:12.899 --> 01:15:14.699 Simon Moore, and Melvin Pena. 1579 01:15:14.760 --> 01:15:17.100 The theme was composed by Cameron Lamb. 1580 01:15:17.159 --> 01:15:20.819 This episode, Dark Doubles, was recorded on the 16th of November 1581 01:15:20.819 --> 01:15:23.880 2025 and released on the 7th of December. 1582 01:15:25.020 --> 01:15:30.539 Famously, for a long time, Horror of Fang Rock Part 4 was the only 1583 01:15:30.539 --> 01:15:34.680 episode of television whose entire guest cast was dead at the 1584 01:15:34.680 --> 01:15:35.159 end. 1585 01:15:35.220 --> 01:15:41.039 That is, until an uncharacteristically gruesome series finale for 1586 01:15:41.039 --> 01:15:46.859 Love Boat the Next Wave, first broadcast on UPN in May 1999 and 1587 01:15:46.859 --> 01:15:48.000 never repeated again. 1588 01:15:54.060 --> 01:15:54.899 What do you think? 1589 01:15:54.960 --> 01:15:58.199 Does anyone have anything that they want to add? 1590 01:15:58.260 --> 01:15:59.880 I think we could probably go out on the... 1591 01:15:59.939 --> 01:16:03.899 I did want to go out on the novelisation talk and I think this was 1592 01:16:03.899 --> 01:16:04.979 the best place for it. 1593 01:16:05.100 --> 01:16:08.399 I think we will talk about the 3 doctors, the 5 doctors 1594 01:16:08.399 --> 01:16:09.659 novelisation. 1595 01:16:10.260 --> 01:16:13.500 Can I just say something about the effects that you can you can or 1596 01:16:13.500 --> 01:16:15.779 just delete, you can drop in earlier or you can just delete it. 1597 01:16:15.840 --> 01:16:17.699 Could be the tag. 1598 01:16:17.760 --> 01:16:21.659 Well, I don't fancy paying tag. 1599 01:16:21.720 --> 01:16:24.300 Some people stop listening, yeah, whether they're close to musical 1600 01:16:24.300 --> 01:16:26.340 for them, the best parts. 1601 01:16:26.340 --> 01:16:27.000 Yeah, I plan. 1602 01:16:28.140 --> 01:16:31.979 We have touched on Peter, you did touch on how effective, say, the 1603 01:16:31.979 --> 01:16:35.159 Kramer key is in the lamp gallery area, but that's just one 1604 01:16:35.159 --> 01:16:35.579 example. 1605 01:16:35.640 --> 01:16:38.520 I think the effects as a rule, you know, we can quibble about the 1606 01:16:38.520 --> 01:16:38.880 ship. 1607 01:16:38.939 --> 01:16:41.880 Yes, okay, the ships, you know, a bit a bit dodgy at the end of 1608 01:16:41.880 --> 01:16:47.880 part one, but the effects, as a rule, all meat expectations, the 1609 01:16:47.880 --> 01:16:51.359 root in itself is so beautifully realised with the wispy white 1610 01:16:51.359 --> 01:16:57.119 bits around the jelly, the green jelly like stuff and after it's 1611 01:16:57.119 --> 01:16:59.939 dyed or after it's been, you know, out when it's dying and sliding 1612 01:16:59.939 --> 01:17:01.859 down the stairs. down the stairs. 1613 01:17:01.979 --> 01:17:04.079 Yeah, that is incredibly effective. 1614 01:17:04.140 --> 01:17:09.720 And I think it's just one of those examples where the reach, the 1615 01:17:09.720 --> 01:17:13.979 requirement of the effects does not exceed the ability of the 1616 01:17:13.979 --> 01:17:15.239 affects people to achieve them. 1617 01:17:15.720 --> 01:17:19.920 So there's 2 effects that I think are astoundingly good. 1618 01:17:19.979 --> 01:17:26.159 And one is the root and mothership appearing outside the window of 1619 01:17:26.159 --> 01:17:28.800 the lamp gallery where it looks like it's rolling flames. 1620 01:17:28.920 --> 01:17:29.880 It's incredible. 1621 01:17:29.939 --> 01:17:32.460 And it's replaced by something much, much more boring in the 1622 01:17:32.460 --> 01:17:33.899 special edition on the Blu-ray. 1623 01:17:33.960 --> 01:17:34.979 But you repeat yourself. 1624 01:17:35.039 --> 01:17:35.699 It's really good. 1625 01:17:35.699 --> 01:17:38.220 That's Ptology as a rule. 1626 01:17:39.239 --> 01:17:45.119 I actually like the hilariously cute puppet squid. 1627 01:17:45.659 --> 01:17:47.520 It's really funny. 1628 01:17:47.579 --> 01:17:51.899 But the other the other shot is the shot where the beam goes from 1629 01:17:51.899 --> 01:17:56.340 the lighthouse and blows up the and blows up the mothership, which 1630 01:17:56.340 --> 01:17:59.819 is just astoundingly good. like so much better. 1631 01:17:59.880 --> 01:18:02.460 Light years ahead of any of the other model shots. 1632 01:18:02.520 --> 01:18:03.479 It's shot from below. 1633 01:18:03.539 --> 01:18:06.119 The sky is really vivid. 1634 01:18:06.180 --> 01:18:08.819 The beam is unbelievably great. 1635 01:18:08.880 --> 01:18:12.000 You know, the sort of thing where we sort of half-assedly pain 1636 01:18:12.000 --> 01:18:16.380 something onto the videotape, sort of in post-production. 1637 01:18:16.439 --> 01:18:19.319 Here, it's absolutely brilliant and the explosion. 1638 01:18:19.380 --> 01:18:21.479 Like it's so vivid and so well done. 1639 01:18:21.539 --> 01:18:24.539 Like, I think those are absolutely brilliant. 1640 01:18:24.600 --> 01:18:27.119 And one of the reasons that that shot is brilliant. 1641 01:18:27.239 --> 01:18:28.260 Is it that it's Chris? 1642 01:18:28.380 --> 01:18:29.819 Yeah, yeah. 1643 01:18:29.819 --> 01:18:32.399 You don't have time to take in whatever flaws they may have been. 1644 01:18:32.460 --> 01:18:33.659 It's a quick cut to that. 1645 01:18:33.720 --> 01:18:37.199 The explosion, click cutaway, and you're just left with this 1646 01:18:37.199 --> 01:18:39.539 impression of an amazing effect, which it is. 1647 01:18:39.600 --> 01:18:40.079 It is beautiful. 1648 01:18:40.140 --> 01:18:44.220 And isn't it beautiful that the story begins at sunset or just 1649 01:18:44.220 --> 01:18:45.779 after sunset with the fading light. 1650 01:18:45.840 --> 01:18:50.100 It's only night. with the 1st light of dawn. as the root and 1651 01:18:50.100 --> 01:18:51.119 spaceship is arriving. 1652 01:18:51.180 --> 01:18:54.659 The dawn glow is appearing in the sky and it's so evolving. 1653 01:18:54.720 --> 01:18:55.380 It's beautiful. 1654 01:18:55.439 --> 01:18:58.140 And that is the thing I've wanted to like, it's been on my notes 1655 01:18:58.140 --> 01:19:01.319 and it was, it was one of the 1st things I noted down when I 1656 01:19:01.319 --> 01:19:04.199 started rewatching the story because I actually re-listened. 1657 01:19:04.260 --> 01:19:07.140 I listened to the audiobook a couple of weeks ago and then 1658 01:19:07.140 --> 01:19:10.319 listened to it again recently on a trip, but the one of the things 1659 01:19:10.319 --> 01:19:13.079 that really astonished me about this story in both the 1660 01:19:13.079 --> 01:19:16.439 novelisation and the TV, and I don't know why it was literally the 1661 01:19:16.439 --> 01:19:18.060 1st thing that popped into my mind, I kept thinking about 1662 01:19:18.060 --> 01:19:18.960 unities. 1663 01:19:18.960 --> 01:19:21.659 And I'm like, why do I, why do I keep thinking about this word? 1664 01:19:21.779 --> 01:19:24.359 And I had to go and like remind myself what it was. 1665 01:19:24.420 --> 01:19:25.920 Like, why was I thinking about this? 1666 01:19:25.979 --> 01:19:28.260 And it's it's the Aristotelian unities. 1667 01:19:28.380 --> 01:19:31.800 It's the unity of action, unity of time, and unity of place. 1668 01:19:31.859 --> 01:19:33.539 And that's exactly what you're just talking about, Simon. 1669 01:19:33.600 --> 01:19:35.520 It's like, it takes place in a single night. 1670 01:19:35.579 --> 01:19:40.079 And so you're never allowed to like get bored or get lost or get 1671 01:19:40.079 --> 01:19:40.859 weary. 1672 01:19:40.920 --> 01:19:43.500 Like it's all happening in such quick succession. 1673 01:19:43.560 --> 01:19:46.079 And the thing is, like, would it matter, right? 1674 01:19:46.140 --> 01:19:50.039 If the rooting was, was there and the, the sun had come up and it 1675 01:19:50.039 --> 01:19:50.699 had not worked. 1676 01:19:50.760 --> 01:19:54.539 Like, would that have like disrupted the plot? 1677 01:19:54.600 --> 01:19:57.239 But the thing is like it, you're exactly right. 1678 01:19:57.300 --> 01:20:00.899 Like that's, it's such a brilliant thing that it happens from sun 1679 01:20:00.899 --> 01:20:04.380 sundown to sun, uh, from sun up, sundown to sun up. incredible. 1680 01:20:04.439 --> 01:20:08.579 I think it's rare in Doctor Who as well, to have that unity. 1681 01:20:08.640 --> 01:20:11.039 Like, do you never really have a sense that there's night and day 1682 01:20:11.039 --> 01:20:12.899 in lots of Doctor Who stories. 1683 01:20:12.960 --> 01:20:16.079 A counter example, I think, is spearhead from space, where the 1684 01:20:16.079 --> 01:20:19.140 doctor leaves work overnight, and then the thing happens in the 1685 01:20:19.140 --> 01:20:19.800 morning afterwards. 1686 01:20:19.979 --> 01:20:23.699 The Happiness Patrol is in one night, but it is very rare. 1687 01:20:23.760 --> 01:20:26.039 I think that you get a sense of morning and night and day. 1688 01:20:26.100 --> 01:20:29.100 I think ghost lights where a whole heap of stuff is happening 1689 01:20:29.100 --> 01:20:30.840 while ace is asleep. 1690 01:20:30.899 --> 01:20:36.300 But it isn't very common in Doctor Who, and it's not really, they 1691 01:20:36.300 --> 01:20:37.619 don't really hang a lantern on it. 1692 01:20:37.680 --> 01:20:39.539 It's not a big deal in the script. 1693 01:20:39.600 --> 01:20:40.979 It is just a visual thing. 1694 01:20:41.039 --> 01:20:45.239 But it is, I think it is really good and it does actually tie 1695 01:20:45.239 --> 01:20:47.520 everything together really kind of properly. 1696 01:20:47.699 --> 01:20:52.619 And the other part about that is the, just thinking about, again 1697 01:20:52.619 --> 01:20:57.239 the set and the single set, the, of it being the lighthouse, is 1698 01:20:57.239 --> 01:21:00.479 that one of the things that is emphasised in both the novel and in 1699 01:21:00.479 --> 01:21:05.340 the TV story is the fact that this is an operational lighthouse 1700 01:21:05.340 --> 01:21:08.399 that there's a constant, like, the constant action, that they're 1701 01:21:08.399 --> 01:21:10.680 constantly, you're talking about Elila even ordering people 1702 01:21:10.680 --> 01:21:11.039 around. 1703 01:21:11.100 --> 01:21:14.039 They're always have to keep the boiler going because you have to 1704 01:21:14.039 --> 01:21:17.579 keep the generator going in order to have light because well, I 1705 01:21:17.579 --> 01:21:20.579 mean, because it's at night, but also to run the lighthouse 1706 01:21:20.579 --> 01:21:21.060 itself. 1707 01:21:21.119 --> 01:21:25.619 And the real, like, what was really shocking to me revisiting this 1708 01:21:25.619 --> 01:21:30.479 story now after a span of years is that there's no, like, Leila 1709 01:21:30.479 --> 01:21:33.479 and the doctor piss off at the end, like, there's no one to man 1710 01:21:33.479 --> 01:21:35.340 the light, like, who's going to know? 1711 01:21:35.399 --> 01:21:38.579 Again, no one's going to know until the next night. 1712 01:21:38.640 --> 01:21:42.359 And then, like, you just think about like the practicality of a 1713 01:21:42.359 --> 01:21:43.260 working lighthouse. 1714 01:21:43.260 --> 01:21:45.600 And that is something that is, that Terrence Dix never lets you 1715 01:21:45.600 --> 01:21:48.119 forget in the TV story, he never lets you forget it in the 1716 01:21:48.119 --> 01:21:51.659 novelisation, is that this has, the boiler must keep working. 1717 01:21:51.720 --> 01:21:52.979 The generator has to keep functioning. 1718 01:21:53.340 --> 01:21:59.159 The, the, um, the foghorn, yes, is so incredibly well used. 1719 01:21:59.220 --> 01:22:02.760 Like the 1st time it conceals Ben's scream. 1720 01:22:02.760 --> 01:22:04.079 Yes, beautiful segues. 1721 01:22:04.140 --> 01:22:10.260 There's a wonderful moment where Leila is left to pull the lever 1722 01:22:10.260 --> 01:22:12.960 that makes it go and she's so excited by it. 1723 01:22:13.020 --> 01:22:14.819 Like she's really smiling and great. 1724 01:22:14.880 --> 01:22:17.939 And then when we cut back to her, she's utterly bored with it 1725 01:22:17.939 --> 01:22:21.180 completely sick of it, which I think is absolutely superb. 1726 01:22:21.239 --> 01:22:24.060 But just the number of times that someone says something really 1727 01:22:24.060 --> 01:22:29.939 portentous and then we get the foghorn just punctuating it is so 1728 01:22:29.939 --> 01:22:30.300 good. 1729 01:22:30.359 --> 01:22:31.619 It's so well used. 1730 01:22:31.680 --> 01:22:33.659 It just creates such... 1731 01:22:33.840 --> 01:22:36.479 It also matters in the scene where someone, I think it's Leila who 1732 01:22:36.479 --> 01:22:38.579 tries to pull it and or Vince tries to pull it and it doesn't 1733 01:22:38.579 --> 01:22:38.699 work. 1734 01:22:38.760 --> 01:22:40.739 So you know that the boiler has stopped. 1735 01:22:40.800 --> 01:22:42.479 Like, it's that I just love that. 1736 01:22:42.539 --> 01:22:42.899 I love that. 1737 01:22:42.960 --> 01:22:45.720 It's the totality of Dulch 2 production. 1738 01:22:45.779 --> 01:22:48.539 You get a great director like Patty Russell, and she's not only 1739 01:22:48.539 --> 01:22:51.899 thinking in terms of visuals and the internal logic of which 1740 01:22:51.899 --> 01:22:54.359 characters are aware and how they're entering and leaving scenes 1741 01:22:54.359 --> 01:22:57.659 but she's also making sure that the model work is appropriate for 1742 01:22:57.659 --> 01:23:00.600 what you need on screen, and she's making sure that the soundscape 1743 01:23:00.600 --> 01:23:03.119 is always there, reminding you of when... 1744 01:23:03.180 --> 01:23:05.340 You can hear the birds and stuff when you're in the lamp, gallery 1745 01:23:05.340 --> 01:23:06.720 and the waves, you can hear the crashing words. 1746 01:23:06.779 --> 01:23:08.220 And in the boiler room, there's an echo. 1747 01:23:08.279 --> 01:23:11.220 Dick Mills was talking about this, about how important those kind 1748 01:23:11.220 --> 01:23:13.500 of sounds are to help you get a sense of place. 1749 01:23:13.560 --> 01:23:16.979 And that's the stuff that you start to, it starts to get lost, you 1750 01:23:16.979 --> 01:23:18.600 know, the lesser made stories. 1751 01:23:18.960 --> 01:23:23.039 Do you think Leely and her skins was quite proficient at keeping 1752 01:23:23.039 --> 01:23:24.060 the boy pressure up? 1753 01:23:24.239 --> 01:23:26.760 All among you. 1754 01:23:26.819 --> 01:23:30.479 I was really going to make a joke about... 1755 01:23:30.479 --> 01:23:32.340 I thought, actually, no, I don't want to do that. 1756 01:23:32.819 --> 01:23:40.319 I also like module simulator is another great. module simulator. 1757 01:23:40.380 --> 01:23:43.800 Or when Tom, when he goes, I'm sending a signal and Tom just 1758 01:23:43.800 --> 01:23:47.100 produces the module simulator and goes, you're not. 1759 01:23:50.220 --> 01:23:54.840 I'll be so happy that the confluence of the vent. meant that we 1760 01:23:54.840 --> 01:23:56.340 didn't get Dracula this season. 1761 01:23:56.399 --> 01:23:58.859 We actually got the horror thing right. so good. 1762 01:23:58.859 --> 01:24:00.000 I mean, that's so amazing. 1763 01:24:00.060 --> 01:24:03.300 And you know, just the fact that Patty Russell, who Tom was 1764 01:24:03.300 --> 01:24:05.399 already shitty with, for being a woman. 1765 01:24:05.399 --> 01:24:06.600 Yeah, yeah. 1766 01:24:06.659 --> 01:24:09.960 So make you wear the pyramids of... 1767 01:24:10.020 --> 01:24:14.159 And, you know, he's he's kind of off the boil because he's lost 1768 01:24:14.159 --> 01:24:18.899 Liz and, you know, he's horrible to Louise and, you know, he's 1769 01:24:18.899 --> 01:24:23.939 absolutely he's intolerable the entire time, like just awful. 1770 01:24:24.000 --> 01:24:27.600 And, you know, it's the story where Paddy Russell has to, you know 1771 01:24:27.600 --> 01:24:31.800 can't get him to behave where Louise has to take him aside and 1772 01:24:31.800 --> 01:24:36.119 tell him to pull his head in, um, where with the lighting, People 1773 01:24:36.119 --> 01:24:39.180 are going to swing a boom at his head, like not a boom, but a 1774 01:24:39.180 --> 01:24:41.460 thing at his head, like they were so angry with him. 1775 01:24:41.520 --> 01:24:45.239 What Blake said to me was that there was camera crews at either 1776 01:24:45.239 --> 01:24:48.960 end of the studio and Tom was being particularly difficult and she 1777 01:24:48.960 --> 01:24:52.020 just saw these cameras moved towards him at speed. 1778 01:24:52.079 --> 01:24:53.340 Let there's go pressure between it. 1779 01:24:53.399 --> 01:24:57.420 Yeah, like, everyone hated him, and what ends up happening is that 1780 01:24:57.420 --> 01:25:00.720 you just get the best performance of any actor in the role, the 1781 01:25:00.720 --> 01:25:05.880 doctor as a result, because he's, because he's got this Olympian 1782 01:25:05.880 --> 01:25:10.319 detachment, he's above everyone in a way and he's aware of what's 1783 01:25:10.319 --> 01:25:13.979 going on in a way that they can't be, and he's contemptuous of 1784 01:25:13.979 --> 01:25:17.340 everyone, and all of that stuff, I think, you know, ends up 1785 01:25:17.340 --> 01:25:19.140 informing his performance. 1786 01:25:19.199 --> 01:25:22.920 And, you know, you forget how scary Tom can be when you see him 1787 01:25:22.920 --> 01:25:24.960 being cuddly in sort of season 17. 1788 01:25:25.140 --> 01:25:28.319 He's really properly scary in this and it's because he's so, so 1789 01:25:28.319 --> 01:25:28.920 awful. 1790 01:25:28.979 --> 01:25:30.840 You know, just such a dreadful person. 1791 01:25:30.899 --> 01:25:34.560 Tom Baker and B. Yes, newly minted, yes. 1792 01:25:34.619 --> 01:25:35.880 Newly invested. 1793 01:25:35.939 --> 01:25:37.560 Criminally, criminally energy. 1794 01:25:37.859 --> 01:25:39.659 Yeah, yeah. 1795 01:25:39.720 --> 01:25:41.760 Well, I behave like that at work, I'm expecting. 1796 01:25:42.359 --> 01:25:43.319 Sometimes I do.