WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-05-03 at 08:46:27

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to 500 Year Diary, the only

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Doctor Who podcast that's just a harmless bunch of cranks, if you

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ask me.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm Todd.

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And I'm the sweaty ends of a tandem skipping rope with a lot of

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barrack stories to tell for this one.

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It's the 28th of December, 1974.

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Just 6.5 months ago, the John Pertwee era came to an end and so

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did Terence Dix's tenure as Doctor Who.

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Script editor.

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And so tonight, 10800000 people have tuned in to see what Terence

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can do when he's writing a Doctor Who script on his own.

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And perhaps they're here for some other reason as well.

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In 4 weeks time, Doctor Who is going to change forever.

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Let's see how Terrence prepares us for that change as we discuss

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robot.

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So this, gentlemen, is the 2nd time that we've convened for this

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very purpose to record a podcast episode about robots, which we

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last did, I think, 10 years ago.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm Nathan I'm a lovely bucket of squidgy CSO glamour, the solo

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Richard.

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Hello.

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And I'm back from Ketterwell hairdressers.

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One star fits all.

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And don't I look a treat?

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I think it's hilarious that, you know, we set up this season and

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the 4 of us have ended up on this episode.

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So everyone can really just stop here and go back.

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There's a link in the show notes.

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You could just listen to that and we'll get on with something

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else.

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What do you think?

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Yeah, yeah.

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Look, I'd love to discuss Donkey Kong Bonanza with you.

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I haven't played it yet.

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It is pretty good.

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Yeah, I do have opinions.

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Lots of smashing.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah. plenty of smashing.

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We have on 500-year diary often just started by talking about the

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production before we move on to our sort of main topic.

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So how do people feel this episode works and looks and so on?

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Last time we talks not about Terrence.

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We talked a lot about production and all the rest of it and that

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it feels like, you know, the end of the Pertwi era, but, you know

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watching it again this week doesn't feel anything like a Pertwi

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story. really doesn't.

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Oh, okay, the pace is sort of the same.

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But that's just BBC at the time.

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It's simply that there's a lot of cottages and a lot of oil on the

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floor and a lot of grown men tripping over skipping ropes with

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each other as sorted out in the rehearsals.

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A lot of things that Terence didn't write, especially the physical

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comedy, that is the spice in this, that makes it Christmassy and

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puddingy, and more than we've seen, because, you know, John was so

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careful and constructive in how he ran the set when he was on it.

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Now we're seeing this storm in a ginger beer mug, but it doesn't

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feel the same.

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What you feel?

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It does have a different energy because Tom has a different

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energy.

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And I think too, isn't all the outside broadcast stuff on video?

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Yeah.

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So that gives it a very different feel.

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But, you know, the trappings are still there.

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I remember commenting at the time that I felt that Nick Courtney

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was outacted by the other regulars.

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And I think that's unfair.

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I think he's always very solid.

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He just, you know, we've just had 5 years of him acting against

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John.

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And I think if you look at, well, the next time he appears to

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igons, I think there is a really great rapport with the doctor and

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with the brigadier and that, I think that works really well, and I

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would have liked to have seen more of that.

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But here, there is that juxtaposition between how he's acted

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before and the energy that Tom's delivering and that sort of thing

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and you're suddenly uncomfortable.

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Like it's not the same as it was.

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I think that something that really distinguishes it from the other

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unit stories of the Pertwee era is that you will usually have some

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figure of authority, be it a more senior military officer, be it a

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government man who is somehow obstructionist, whether, you know

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they're just sort of a bit like Mr. Chin in the claws of Axos and

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their obstructionist because it's their personality or whether

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they are part of the villain circle.

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But here, we kind of cut through that.

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And the only sort of comparable character we really have is

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Chambers, who doesn't get any lives that is killed in episode

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two.

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And it's amazing how quickly the plot is able to whip along when

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you don't have the intransigent government minister making this

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into a six-parter.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I mean, for me, I think the real visible change is the videotape

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thing because that film videotape thing is so inherent to stuff of

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the 1970s, I was watching on Friday night, the 1980 Pride and

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Prejudice, which also has filmed exteriors and videotape studio

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stuff.

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And that's a prestige drama, I think, at the time.

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So it was normal.

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I mean, it was sort of part of the thing.

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I think that it does give a different kind of feel to it.

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And then the other feel is, you know, Tom is quoted as saying how

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upright pertwe is, you know, he's like a lamp, you know, like a

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standard lamp.

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And that sort of verticality.

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Like Tom rejects that and is just completely, like, is just

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frequently lying down.

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The anti-Malania.

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Don't plug him into the wall.

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And so that gives it a very different kind of feel, but I think I

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think that what you've identified, Brandon, as that we aren't

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putting artificial barriers between the doctor and the resolution

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of the problem.

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And I wonder whether that's Terrence Dixie.

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We'll get in there a little bit and talk about how the plot moves

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but the plot does move, but it's not deliberately delayed.

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We don't lock the doctor up for episode 3 or anything.

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We just keep moving.

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And I think it's very cleverly done.

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And I think it is absolutely a Terence thing, something that in

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fact we saw last week.

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I think this is what Terrence had wanted for a long time.

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And I'm not just thinking the frosty protagonist, because we think

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back to colony in space and how Susan Jamieson was wanted and

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written for.

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I think this is Terence actually getting, as you said, all the

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controls let loose and saying, this is what I actually want to

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write, and it's a cracking pace.

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As you say, but really propelled by surprising characters.

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They shouldn't be too surprising because we've had versions of

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them for the last cough 5 years.

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But this one just feels very fresh.

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It's not just Tom.

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But he's having to juggle a new doctor and that introduction with

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the older characters.

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And, I mean, as we commented previously, Sarah drives a lot of

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this because she's investigating.

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And that gives then Tom and Ian the time to sort of bond and us to

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know those characters for a regeneration story, which is very

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different to other regeneration stories. where the doctor is

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incapacitated or out of his mind or whatever, here.

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He may not be involved with the action straight away, but he's up

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and about and doing things.

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And as I commented, and we spoke of at the time as well.

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Just the way Sarah reacts to the new doctor.

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She's observing and then building that relationship.

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At no point is she, like Clara having a breakdown, right?

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and she's our audience identification figure.

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And so you see her smile, you see her accept him, and you're going

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along with that as well.

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And I think that's, and I guess I'm jumping ahead here because, you

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know, Terence guided the last regeneration with Bob Holmes.

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And you can compare that story to this one.

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And slightly different circumstances, obviously, because we've got

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a regular crew here who've been with the doctor.

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Whereas last time it's basically, well, the briggy knows the

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doctor, but it's not a regular crew.

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They've still got to be introduced.

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So there's different dynamics happening.

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And I think it's possibly the only real regeneration story in the

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show where you actually have got like the brigadier and Sarah have

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been there for considerable amount of time.

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You look at everything else, everybody else basically has been

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there for like one or 2 stories, maybe a couple more.

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And I think that's significant.

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I think that sort of post-regeneration trauma is always bad, I

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think it's a big problem, and note that Stephen Moffat, for

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instance, pretty much rejects it, like there's that sort of funny

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line and stuff, but basically it's the doctor up and running and

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solving the problem.

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He doesn't have the TARDIS.

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He doesn't have his sonic screwdriver, but he's fine.

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But everyone's wanting to tune in to see the new doctor.

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So we barely see him in Spearhead from Space part one.

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And remember, he's not suffering from post-regeneration trauma

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because it's not really regeneration in the sense that that hasn't

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properly been invented yet, but he gets shot.

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Yeah.

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And so he's in hospital.

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And all the other times are just disastrous.

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I think, you know, Castra Valver, it's really boring and you don't

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get to see the actual doctor until he's dead now, actually.

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We don't get to see we don't get to see the doctor properly until

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maybe episode three.

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Well, the twin dilemma.

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Absolutely.

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Right, goodness, of training.

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And whatever we feel about time in the running, Sylvesters, doing

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whatever he's doing in that 1st episode. you know, these are not

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huge successes.

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And I think the biggest 2 successors are spared from space and

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this in particular.

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And Terrence does say about the whole thing of not doing Spearhead

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from Space again, he said, we did a story where people are

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suspicious of the doctor because they didn't see it happen.

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So in consultation with Robert Sloman.

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Right, for this regeneration scene, Sarah and the brigadier watch

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it happen. don't have another episode of that.

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We've had the doctor unconscious and getting x-rays and 2 hearts.

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Okay, we've done that.

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How else do we find out he's got 2 halves?

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Someone listens to them.

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You know.

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So it's kind of interesting how Terence as a writer went. sort of

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have to hit the same beats, but let's do a 180 on them. and go in

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the other direction with them.

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I love when Tom discovers that the Tartar's keys in his boots

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though.

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I think that's just tremendous, of course.

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It was a great callback, wasn't it?

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There's lots of little aha moments.

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It's the most exciting regeneration we've seen up to date. possibly

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of the classic era.

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He's so great.

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Like, it's so ridiculous.

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Like, you know, like, we've all known Tom as the doctor since, like

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I've known him as the doctor since 1978. 75 for me.

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Yeah, forever.

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But also, and Todd just said it, it would not have had those

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sparks, and this is no offence to Nick Courtney or any of the

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regular cast, but Ian Marty is a really nice point across the

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fulcrum with him.

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It's the same kind of energy in that and they're competitive.

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It's so weird.

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You can see instantly their mates.

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Instantly, they're out clevering each other.

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You can really see it.

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It's like, oh, this is the right kind of boyish competition. and

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what I wanted to see Just that interaction over whether it's

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called the infirmary or Sick Bay, which I just think is so funny.

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It kind of comes from nowhere.

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That is also played in rehearsals.

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So again, the sparks and wit.

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All of them, yeah.

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Yeah, I think you're right.

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I think we underestimate how important Ian is to that scene, which

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is brilliant.

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I mean, that's when that doctor lands, isn't it, in that scene?

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That's where we sort of properly see him.

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And he's instantly brilliant and it's because he ends there, to

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some degree.

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Yeah, on the DVD commentary, Terence is actually quite funny about

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that because that whole thing of you may be a doctor, but I'm the

250
00:12:54.120 --> 00:12:57.000
doctor, et cetera, the infirmary, the Sick Bay, was entirely, as

251
00:12:57.000 --> 00:12:58.500
you say, Richard worked out in rehearsal.

252
00:12:58.559 --> 00:13:01.440
And so Terence is on the commentary saying, now, Tom, I didn't

253
00:13:01.440 --> 00:13:01.919
write this bit.

254
00:13:01.980 --> 00:13:05.879
It came in and mucked about, you know, it's everyone's laughing, of

255
00:13:05.879 --> 00:13:08.039
course, because he's not precious.

256
00:13:08.100 --> 00:13:13.440
But the springboard is the brontosaurus line, which allows the

257
00:13:13.440 --> 00:13:18.120
actors to diss each other that would not have come about, had

258
00:13:18.120 --> 00:13:19.379
Terence not planted?

259
00:13:19.440 --> 00:13:22.679
And I feel that Terrence is the little pottage gardener in this

260
00:13:22.679 --> 00:13:22.860
one.

261
00:13:22.919 --> 00:13:25.200
He's just planting little seedlings around and then letting the

262
00:13:25.200 --> 00:13:28.559
actors fly, which is what a really good writer does and what an

263
00:13:28.559 --> 00:13:29.700
excellent showrunner does.

264
00:13:29.759 --> 00:13:31.200
And we didn't have that word then, did we?

265
00:13:31.259 --> 00:13:34.740
Maybe Terrence really was the show on a title.

266
00:13:34.799 --> 00:13:36.299
Don't think it was Barry Letts at this stage.

267
00:13:36.360 --> 00:13:37.620
Well, I mean, this is the thing.

268
00:13:37.679 --> 00:13:39.960
Like we discussed this last week in war games.

269
00:13:40.019 --> 00:13:42.240
Terrence is there before Barry Letts.

270
00:13:42.299 --> 00:13:45.480
He writes the last trout and sets everything up and then he guides

271
00:13:45.480 --> 00:13:50.039
the entire poetry era through with a stable of writers that he's

272
00:13:50.039 --> 00:13:50.580
working with.

273
00:13:50.639 --> 00:13:55.559
Would it be Don Horton, Malcolm Hulk, Robert Holmes, Bob Baker, and

274
00:13:55.559 --> 00:13:56.340
Dave Martin.

275
00:13:56.340 --> 00:13:59.460
And some of them he lets fly more than others, others he has to

276
00:13:59.460 --> 00:14:03.840
craft, but he is a craftsman who is every week delivering stories

277
00:14:03.840 --> 00:14:05.700
that do not fail, that are entertaining.

278
00:14:05.759 --> 00:14:09.659
And then he bookends his entire era by writing the 1st story of

279
00:14:09.659 --> 00:14:10.440
the next doctor.

280
00:14:10.500 --> 00:14:14.039
He doesn't write, officially write any per tweets, but it's

281
00:14:14.039 --> 00:14:16.440
Troughton, Baker, and that's his booking.

282
00:14:16.500 --> 00:14:17.159
Yeah, yeah.

283
00:14:17.220 --> 00:14:18.120
Is there a plan there?

284
00:14:18.240 --> 00:14:22.440
I mean, he is really, really incredible and that era, as we said

285
00:14:22.440 --> 00:14:23.039
last time.

286
00:14:23.159 --> 00:14:25.799
Like, a lot of people, it's not their favourite era.

287
00:14:25.860 --> 00:14:27.899
It's Peter's favourite era.

288
00:14:27.960 --> 00:14:33.120
He loves it. and it's a thing where the floor is raised, I think.

289
00:14:33.179 --> 00:14:35.700
It's just consistently good.

290
00:14:35.759 --> 00:14:39.960
It never fails in the way that some Troutons fail and some Tom

291
00:14:39.960 --> 00:14:41.820
Baker stories kind of fail.

292
00:14:41.879 --> 00:14:45.659
I don't think it ever really quite fails, and it's just so

293
00:14:45.659 --> 00:14:49.200
genuinely enjoyable and just so well done.

294
00:14:58.259 --> 00:15:00.299
Back to what you were saying about Showrunner.

295
00:15:00.360 --> 00:15:03.539
Like, you know, we talk about showrunners now.

296
00:15:03.600 --> 00:15:06.899
They're like the head writer and we don't talk about any really of

297
00:15:06.899 --> 00:15:07.620
the other producers.

298
00:15:07.679 --> 00:15:09.120
Going back to this.

299
00:15:09.179 --> 00:15:12.419
You know, you've got Barry Letz's producer for the Pertwee era, and

300
00:15:12.419 --> 00:15:13.919
then Terrence Sticks.

301
00:15:14.039 --> 00:15:16.320
And you know, Barry is pushing the boundaries in terms of

302
00:15:16.320 --> 00:15:19.559
direction and special effects and all that sort of stuff.

303
00:15:19.620 --> 00:15:23.340
But you can't do anything if you don't have the stories, right?

304
00:15:23.399 --> 00:15:25.620
You can't do the casting if you don't have the characters.

305
00:15:25.679 --> 00:15:27.659
And this is all coming from Terrence.

306
00:15:27.720 --> 00:15:31.740
And I think that he is an unsung hero of crafting the show.

307
00:15:31.799 --> 00:15:33.960
And I think he recognises when things need to change.

308
00:15:34.019 --> 00:15:37.080
He recognised, you know, we need to do something in season 8.

309
00:15:37.139 --> 00:15:39.779
Again, Bob Holmes, soft reboot. you know, the master's

310
00:15:39.779 --> 00:15:40.259
introduced.

311
00:15:40.320 --> 00:15:42.480
He's taken that from the war games.

312
00:15:42.539 --> 00:15:45.059
Again, you know, for season 10. to get the doctor back into

313
00:15:45.059 --> 00:15:45.419
space.

314
00:15:45.480 --> 00:15:47.340
There are all these beats along the way.

315
00:15:47.399 --> 00:15:51.360
And it wouldn't happen without him recognising these things.

316
00:15:51.840 --> 00:15:55.860
When I was reading up on the development of this script, and the

317
00:15:55.860 --> 00:15:58.620
whole whirlwind casting of Tom Baker, like it was literally like

318
00:15:58.620 --> 00:16:03.419
Hingcliffe lets, Dix and Holmes were all interviewing actors, and

319
00:16:03.419 --> 00:16:06.720
we mentioned before in our previous episode, Richard Hurd, Ron

320
00:16:06.720 --> 00:16:09.960
Moody, Graham Crowden was in the mix, but didn't want to commit to

321
00:16:09.960 --> 00:16:11.340
a long-running series, et cetera.

322
00:16:11.399 --> 00:16:15.720
And Bill Slater, head of serials, gets a letter from an actor he

323
00:16:15.720 --> 00:16:18.120
worked with previously, Tom Baker saying, hey, I don't have any

324
00:16:18.120 --> 00:16:19.259
work.

325
00:16:19.320 --> 00:16:20.220
Could you consider any work?

326
00:16:20.279 --> 00:16:23.159
And Bill Slater said, Barry, Tom's in this movie called The Golden

327
00:16:23.159 --> 00:16:24.000
Voyage of Sinbad.

328
00:16:24.059 --> 00:16:25.320
Cinema now, go see it.

329
00:16:25.379 --> 00:16:26.039
They went to see it.

330
00:16:26.100 --> 00:16:30.120
Two days later they had Tom Baker in, and chatting with him over

331
00:16:30.120 --> 00:16:32.879
lunch and things, and offered him the part on the day.

332
00:16:32.940 --> 00:16:36.899
So Terrence was able to write the script after having several

333
00:16:36.899 --> 00:16:42.120
meetings with Tom Baker, and write precisely for his strengths, and

334
00:16:42.120 --> 00:16:45.179
with that sort of lugubriousness in laying around, that is

335
00:16:45.179 --> 00:16:48.299
specified in Terence's scripts, precisely for the reason you say

336
00:16:48.299 --> 00:16:52.919
Nathan, of providing an immediate contrast to Pertwe.

337
00:16:52.980 --> 00:16:58.139
Just watching it this time, I really, really wanted to know how

338
00:16:58.139 --> 00:17:03.299
that landed at the time, like how did people react to this

339
00:17:03.299 --> 00:17:04.559
incredible change?

340
00:17:04.619 --> 00:17:09.180
Because we've always known that Tom was the doctor, but I wonder

341
00:17:09.180 --> 00:17:11.759
what it would have been like experiencing that firsthand.

342
00:17:11.759 --> 00:17:17.220
Because Pertwe had been there for 5 years longer than anyone else

343
00:17:17.220 --> 00:17:20.279
and kind of long enough for the memory of Trout, and I think, to

344
00:17:20.279 --> 00:17:25.259
kind of fade a bit, particularly since his final season had fallen

345
00:17:25.259 --> 00:17:26.819
off the radar, I think, a little bit.

346
00:17:26.880 --> 00:17:31.319
So Pertwee was the doctor in the same way that we experience when

347
00:17:31.319 --> 00:17:35.099
Tom left, you know, had there really ever been another doctor, it's

348
00:17:35.099 --> 00:17:36.240
hard even to imagine.

349
00:17:36.299 --> 00:17:40.380
So I just really, really wanted to know what that had been like

350
00:17:40.380 --> 00:17:41.759
and what the reception was.

351
00:17:41.819 --> 00:17:45.720
See, I was only 2.5 the time, so I can't really remember it.

352
00:17:46.079 --> 00:17:50.700
But, but, you know, for those kids that came in with John, like in

353
00:17:50.700 --> 00:17:55.500
the 2nd series where he did take off, like the living memory, how

354
00:17:55.500 --> 00:17:57.900
you know, you've got those that are older that came in, obviously

355
00:17:57.900 --> 00:18:01.079
with heart and all, but there's a whole heap of new viewers with

356
00:18:01.079 --> 00:18:01.799
Birchway.

357
00:18:01.859 --> 00:18:03.960
So they would never have experienced a regenerational really

358
00:18:03.960 --> 00:18:04.500
remember it.

359
00:18:04.740 --> 00:18:08.940
So, yeah, so it's like we were saying, what would have been like

360
00:18:08.940 --> 00:18:10.859
at their time for this change?

361
00:18:10.920 --> 00:18:13.680
And I think it's incredible when you do look at those ratings that

362
00:18:13.680 --> 00:18:14.700
it doesn't fall away.

363
00:18:15.539 --> 00:18:15.960
Right?

364
00:18:16.079 --> 00:18:19.259
Momentum builds throughout this season and it is an instant hit.

365
00:18:19.319 --> 00:18:20.400
It was shocking.

366
00:18:20.460 --> 00:18:21.539
How old was I?

367
00:18:21.599 --> 00:18:22.500
Seven. eight.

368
00:18:22.559 --> 00:18:25.740
The 1st one I remember watching live broadcast all the way through

369
00:18:25.740 --> 00:18:28.559
avidly and telling older people to be quiet.

370
00:18:28.740 --> 00:18:31.619
Stop banging about was Planet of the Spiders.

371
00:18:31.680 --> 00:18:32.339
Right, okay.

372
00:18:32.339 --> 00:18:35.579
The texture and the coldness of it is still in my head.

373
00:18:35.640 --> 00:18:38.400
It's extraordinary, like terror of the zigons is too. you just

374
00:18:38.400 --> 00:18:39.000
feel the cold.

375
00:18:39.119 --> 00:18:41.819
This was a proper rattle.

376
00:18:41.880 --> 00:18:47.039
Did the Doctor Who and giant robot book of which dear Brendan is

377
00:18:47.039 --> 00:18:51.000
holding up the very 1st edition with Tom on the cover.

378
00:18:51.059 --> 00:18:52.079
Did that come out before?

379
00:18:52.140 --> 00:18:55.019
I think we had that broadcast in Australia because there was a bit

380
00:18:55.019 --> 00:18:55.920
of a wait, wasn't there?

381
00:18:55.980 --> 00:18:57.599
I think, yes, you're right.

382
00:18:57.660 --> 00:18:59.700
It came out before it was broadcasting Australia because it only

383
00:18:59.700 --> 00:19:02.220
came out about 4 months after broadcasting the UK.

384
00:19:02.339 --> 00:19:05.579
That's right And I believe this was also around the time that the

385
00:19:05.579 --> 00:19:07.259
ABC were considering dropping the series.

386
00:19:07.319 --> 00:19:08.039
Right.

387
00:19:08.039 --> 00:19:10.920
Because, remember, the Doctor Club of Australia basically started

388
00:19:10.920 --> 00:19:14.039
because several people...

389
00:19:14.039 --> 00:19:16.619
So Henry Bland, I think, was the one. who was pushing it.

390
00:19:16.680 --> 00:19:19.740
And yes, we were totally naughty.

391
00:19:19.740 --> 00:19:20.819
We must stoppage months, yes.

392
00:19:20.880 --> 00:19:23.700
And, you know, several people we have known for many years through

393
00:19:23.700 --> 00:19:27.779
Doctor Club of Australia, Dallas Jones, Anthony Howe, Carrie Doty

394
00:19:27.779 --> 00:19:31.259
many other people, arranged a protest, and there are photographs.

395
00:19:31.319 --> 00:19:32.400
I don't know where we could find them.

396
00:19:32.460 --> 00:19:34.500
There are photographs of the Taking of Daleks.

397
00:19:35.579 --> 00:19:36.059
Yes, yes.

398
00:19:36.119 --> 00:19:37.799
Two ABC headquarters.

399
00:19:37.859 --> 00:19:39.539
You cannot cancel Doctor Who.

400
00:19:39.599 --> 00:19:40.140
That's right.

401
00:19:40.200 --> 00:19:40.920
It was actually very close.

402
00:19:40.980 --> 00:19:44.400
And of course, public sentiment was, no, don't cancel this.

403
00:19:44.460 --> 00:19:46.079
Yeah, we were very different then.

404
00:19:46.140 --> 00:19:49.920
I remember seeing that book with the face on it and being very

405
00:19:49.920 --> 00:19:50.460
confused.

406
00:19:50.519 --> 00:19:51.240
So yes.

407
00:19:51.299 --> 00:19:52.079
Okay.

408
00:19:52.140 --> 00:19:54.000
Yeah, because it is funny.

409
00:19:54.059 --> 00:19:56.880
For those of you who haven't seen the cover before, you do have

410
00:19:56.880 --> 00:19:59.700
the robot batting away fighter planes, which does happen in the

411
00:19:59.700 --> 00:20:02.519
novelisation, it doesn't happen in TV, but it doesn't.

412
00:20:02.579 --> 00:20:06.900
And a little circle box out of Sarah in the robot's hand.

413
00:20:06.960 --> 00:20:10.859
But then in the Doctor Who logo, you have Tom Baker's face over

414
00:20:10.859 --> 00:20:13.920
the top of the O, which seems almost to have been added because

415
00:20:13.920 --> 00:20:16.799
someone said, shouldn't Tom Baker's face be...

416
00:20:16.859 --> 00:20:18.720
Probably was and it's great.

417
00:20:18.779 --> 00:20:21.599
Sarah looks more realistic on the front cover of this book.

418
00:20:21.599 --> 00:20:23.460
The robot's head.

419
00:20:23.460 --> 00:20:26.700
She does when she's taken to the top of the building.

420
00:20:26.759 --> 00:20:30.599
How close is this novelisation to the on-screen?

421
00:20:30.660 --> 00:20:31.680
It's pretty close.

422
00:20:31.740 --> 00:20:36.539
It adds in a few lines that were cut out of the script and usually

423
00:20:36.539 --> 00:20:39.900
they're just things like people kind of restating or emphasising.

424
00:20:39.960 --> 00:20:43.380
But there is one particular bit I really like, which I'll just

425
00:20:43.380 --> 00:20:44.220
read out.

426
00:20:44.279 --> 00:20:47.339
So this is just a slight difference and it's not in the original

427
00:20:47.339 --> 00:20:49.079
script because I've got the scriptbook here as well.

428
00:20:49.140 --> 00:20:51.599
This is a slight difference to Sarah's motivation for wanting to

429
00:20:51.599 --> 00:20:52.920
go to think tank in the 1st place.

430
00:20:53.039 --> 00:20:57.119
You see, I'm very keen to get away from all this women's angle

431
00:20:57.119 --> 00:20:59.880
stuff, and if I could just come up with a really good scientific

432
00:20:59.880 --> 00:21:04.140
story, and I found that so interesting because it just gives Sarah

433
00:21:04.140 --> 00:21:07.440
a bit more motivation, and actually, it's kind of a bit more

434
00:21:07.440 --> 00:21:11.099
subtly feminist than Terrence can be sometimes because it's Sarah

435
00:21:11.099 --> 00:21:15.720
kind of going, I'm not being taken seriously, because I'm a woman

436
00:21:15.720 --> 00:21:19.859
and what I really want is something interesting and

437
00:21:19.859 --> 00:21:20.460
consequential.

438
00:21:20.519 --> 00:21:23.279
The hat and the lapels did not help.

439
00:21:25.200 --> 00:21:27.779
Which is what Liz says on the comic.

440
00:21:27.839 --> 00:21:30.299
But she looks great in those Bieber boots.

441
00:21:30.420 --> 00:21:33.599
Yeah, it really looks like she's cosplaying Paddington bed drag.

442
00:21:33.839 --> 00:21:35.940
She does say at one point.

443
00:21:36.000 --> 00:21:39.180
Now, you see, I didn't like it when Jim put me in skirts.

444
00:21:39.240 --> 00:21:41.099
Not to have anything against skirts, but I don't like having to

445
00:21:41.099 --> 00:21:41.640
wear tights.

446
00:21:41.700 --> 00:21:44.880
And then Tom sounds like, oh, Liz, you never told me this.

447
00:21:45.660 --> 00:21:49.259
I shall tell the Americans they shall enjoy. sure they will.

448
00:21:49.500 --> 00:21:51.539
I'm wearing them now.

449
00:21:52.680 --> 00:21:56.579
It was bittersweet listening to the commentary this week because

450
00:21:56.579 --> 00:21:57.660
it's cruel, isn't it?

451
00:21:57.720 --> 00:22:01.079
It's Tom, Liz, Barry and Terence.

452
00:22:01.140 --> 00:22:04.319
And then I did behind the sofa where Tom's sitting there with

453
00:22:04.319 --> 00:22:04.980
Sadie.

454
00:22:04.980 --> 00:22:07.980
And Tom's still bright and alert and passionate.

455
00:22:08.039 --> 00:22:09.779
Yeah, this time about 10 years ago.

456
00:22:09.839 --> 00:22:12.180
And Philip Hinchcliffe as well.

457
00:22:12.240 --> 00:22:15.839
And both Tom and Philip are kind of referring to, oh, people who

458
00:22:15.839 --> 00:22:18.359
aren't with us anymore, and they kind of stop themselves

459
00:22:18.359 --> 00:22:21.000
specifically referring to Liz because Sadie's right there.

460
00:22:21.059 --> 00:22:23.640
But Sadie's in saying things like, oh, yeah, yeah.

461
00:22:23.700 --> 00:22:25.920
Well, before Mum passed, we actually sat down and watched stuff

462
00:22:25.920 --> 00:22:26.940
and yeah.

463
00:22:27.000 --> 00:22:32.880
And but it's just this strange thing, you know, it exists in 1975

464
00:22:32.880 --> 00:22:37.380
for you, Richard, and it exists a few years later for you and Todd

465
00:22:37.440 --> 00:22:40.920
exists in the 1980s for me and it exists in 2007 when the

466
00:22:40.920 --> 00:22:44.579
commentary was recorded and it exists in 2017 when behind the sofa

467
00:22:44.579 --> 00:22:49.380
was done, you know, and all these, all these reactions to one

468
00:22:49.380 --> 00:22:55.440
writers work and they obliquely refer to it in the commentaries as

469
00:22:55.440 --> 00:23:00.059
well, where Tom and Terence both talk about how kids who grew up

470
00:23:00.059 --> 00:23:03.000
watching Doctor Who and reading Doctor Who, and learn to read from

471
00:23:03.000 --> 00:23:04.740
Terence Dix, are hiring them now.

472
00:23:04.799 --> 00:23:06.119
Yeah, yeah.

473
00:23:06.180 --> 00:23:08.220
And that was 10 years ago.

474
00:23:08.279 --> 00:23:12.180
Is it Terence's best as a conglomerate?

475
00:23:12.299 --> 00:23:14.339
I know horror of Fang Rock is way up there.

476
00:23:14.400 --> 00:23:19.259
But is it the best as a working model, functional script, then to

477
00:23:19.259 --> 00:23:24.180
screen, the most Teflon coated, efficient, the best story?

478
00:23:24.240 --> 00:23:25.740
Is it the best thing he's done?

479
00:23:25.859 --> 00:23:27.539
I don't think so.

480
00:23:27.599 --> 00:23:30.900
I do think horror fang rock is better.

481
00:23:30.960 --> 00:23:34.859
And I think part of it is because it has an odd place in Doctor

482
00:23:34.859 --> 00:23:38.339
Who's history because Hingecliffe is about to launch Doctor Who

483
00:23:38.339 --> 00:23:44.160
back into space and the doctor is about to outgrow and next year

484
00:23:44.160 --> 00:23:47.460
he will sort of explicitly outgrow unit as an idea.

485
00:23:47.519 --> 00:23:51.720
So at the end of this episode, we have that glorious scene that we

486
00:23:51.720 --> 00:23:57.240
talked about on FTE, where the doctor and Sarah introduce Harry to

487
00:23:57.240 --> 00:24:00.960
the Tartars, and then they go off into space to have, you know

488
00:24:00.960 --> 00:24:04.559
incredible adventures and adventures that are a bit unlike any

489
00:24:04.559 --> 00:24:07.140
kinds of adventures that the doctor had ever had before.

490
00:24:07.259 --> 00:24:11.099
And so before we go off there, we do something very, very

491
00:24:11.099 --> 00:24:12.059
earthbound.

492
00:24:12.119 --> 00:24:15.420
There are no alien elements here apart from the doctor.

493
00:24:15.480 --> 00:24:20.579
So it's an unusual story, I think, for that reason and it's an

494
00:24:20.579 --> 00:24:21.539
atypical one.

495
00:24:21.599 --> 00:24:28.140
But I think it does an incredibly good job of having something to

496
00:24:28.140 --> 00:24:32.400
do every week and of developing the story.

497
00:24:32.460 --> 00:24:36.599
And I think what it is is that the villains have a plan that's not

498
00:24:36.599 --> 00:24:37.500
already in place.

499
00:24:37.619 --> 00:24:43.140
We watch the plan develop and we see the various stages and then

500
00:24:43.140 --> 00:24:47.759
we watch the doctor and the brigadier in particular, tracking that

501
00:24:47.759 --> 00:24:48.839
development.

502
00:24:48.900 --> 00:24:53.039
And so, you know, it starts off with the robberies and, and then

503
00:24:53.039 --> 00:24:57.660
it's the assassination of chambers, and then we move to the

504
00:24:57.660 --> 00:24:59.039
bunker.

505
00:24:59.099 --> 00:25:02.400
You know, we have the SRS meeting, and then we move to the bunker

506
00:25:02.400 --> 00:25:05.339
and stuff, and these new elements are constantly being

507
00:25:05.339 --> 00:25:06.000
introduced.

508
00:25:06.059 --> 00:25:10.500
And they're introduced at such a pace that the doctor and the

509
00:25:10.500 --> 00:25:13.980
brigadier never look stupid for not knowing what's going on.

510
00:25:14.039 --> 00:25:17.400
They're not outwitted or beaten the entire way.

511
00:25:17.519 --> 00:25:22.440
They're getting closer and closer to this developing situation and

512
00:25:22.440 --> 00:25:23.700
tracking along behind it.

513
00:25:23.759 --> 00:25:27.180
Sarah has given a big role in the reveal of the SRS, for

514
00:25:27.180 --> 00:25:27.539
instance.

515
00:25:27.599 --> 00:25:31.740
And that just means that something is always happening and the

516
00:25:31.740 --> 00:25:35.400
story is always changing and developing and we never get time to

517
00:25:35.400 --> 00:25:38.160
get bored with the status quo.

518
00:25:38.220 --> 00:25:41.819
And I think those 6 part pertise that had things like an

519
00:25:41.819 --> 00:25:45.779
intransigent base commander or whatever, to keep us kind of

520
00:25:45.779 --> 00:25:48.900
running in place for a few episodes.

521
00:25:49.079 --> 00:25:52.740
They were a production necessity, I think.

522
00:25:52.799 --> 00:25:57.960
But Terrence shows you how to do it, how to actually have a plot

523
00:25:57.960 --> 00:26:01.380
that is propulsive and developing all the way through without

524
00:26:01.380 --> 00:26:04.740
making anyone look stupid without artificially slowing things down

525
00:26:04.740 --> 00:26:07.200
and just keeping everything going.

526
00:26:07.319 --> 00:26:09.420
I agree with you on this.

527
00:26:09.480 --> 00:26:12.900
Like it's a masterclass in showing how future script editors.

528
00:26:12.960 --> 00:26:16.680
No, Eric, say it, how to actually write Doctor Who.

529
00:26:16.740 --> 00:26:17.640
That is successful.

530
00:26:17.759 --> 00:26:21.000
You do not have to keep people in a cell for a whole episode.

531
00:26:21.059 --> 00:26:25.680
You can, if you are talented, come up with these things, and

532
00:26:25.680 --> 00:26:29.819
Terrence is showing that, and he has mentored Bob Holmes, right?

533
00:26:29.880 --> 00:26:32.279
Who was already talented anyway, But, I mean, honestly, if Bob

534
00:26:32.279 --> 00:26:35.220
Holmes was just judged on the crotons and the space pirates and

535
00:26:35.220 --> 00:26:38.700
did nothing else, you'd be thinking, was this man actually that

536
00:26:38.700 --> 00:26:39.240
talented?

537
00:26:39.299 --> 00:26:44.579
And then you see his development through Terence in the Perto era

538
00:26:44.579 --> 00:26:47.819
to now that he's script editor and is going to write some of the

539
00:26:47.819 --> 00:26:50.759
and it's probably already written some of the best shows in Doctor

540
00:26:50.759 --> 00:26:51.119
Who.

541
00:26:51.180 --> 00:26:54.180
Terrence knows how to write this stuff and he's giving a

542
00:26:54.180 --> 00:26:55.019
masterclass on it.

543
00:26:55.079 --> 00:26:56.759
He said, is this his best script?

544
00:26:56.819 --> 00:26:58.200
Maybe from that point of view it is.

545
00:26:58.259 --> 00:26:58.980
Right?

546
00:26:59.039 --> 00:27:00.359
Cracking and for pace.

547
00:27:00.420 --> 00:27:01.380
I love what you just said.

548
00:27:01.440 --> 00:27:04.380
Terrence taught Bob structure.

549
00:27:04.440 --> 00:27:08.460
And Bob, I think, gave Terence permission for the dark moments of

550
00:27:08.460 --> 00:27:08.700
which.

551
00:27:08.759 --> 00:27:10.140
Bob was allowed.

552
00:27:10.200 --> 00:27:13.859
He goes so dark, you know, so Henry Bland would have actually had

553
00:27:13.859 --> 00:27:18.480
some purpose to cancel in the show if we'd had Bob just doing

554
00:27:18.480 --> 00:27:21.660
Terrence's job and not and the other way around.

555
00:27:21.720 --> 00:27:26.880
We saw how heavily naughty Bob would get.

556
00:27:26.880 --> 00:27:31.140
Terrence always leavened it and understood that he was riding

557
00:27:31.140 --> 00:27:35.640
principally for young audiences and that we will take on a lot of

558
00:27:35.640 --> 00:27:36.480
bright new ideas.

559
00:27:36.539 --> 00:27:40.259
Don't throw us into the compost machine.

560
00:27:40.319 --> 00:27:45.900
I think that all 4 of us at some point decided during FTE's

561
00:27:45.900 --> 00:27:51.240
original series 12 run that sometimes this got very dark almost

562
00:27:51.240 --> 00:27:51.839
immediately.

563
00:27:51.900 --> 00:27:54.900
Terence, you know, hands over to Bob completely.

564
00:27:54.960 --> 00:27:56.579
And I think...

565
00:27:56.880 --> 00:27:59.400
I still deeply dislike Brain of Morbius.

566
00:27:59.460 --> 00:28:02.160
I really I find it unenjoyable.

567
00:28:02.220 --> 00:28:02.940
Right.

568
00:28:03.000 --> 00:28:04.440
Yeah. very bleak.

569
00:28:04.500 --> 00:28:08.160
And yeah, I think Terrence's criticism of the reworked script is

570
00:28:08.160 --> 00:28:10.500
removing the robot removes the heart.

571
00:28:10.559 --> 00:28:15.180
And that's what he plays with here, that the robot is so

572
00:28:15.180 --> 00:28:16.619
empathetic and so human.

573
00:28:16.619 --> 00:28:19.259
And listening to our old episode, Nathan, you raise some very

574
00:28:19.259 --> 00:28:22.619
interesting points about, well, hold on, why is Kettle well

575
00:28:22.619 --> 00:28:24.900
surprised that this is happening and why is Kettle well the only

576
00:28:24.900 --> 00:28:27.960
person who can adjust the robot if we see Jellicoe doing it?

577
00:28:30.299 --> 00:28:33.180
And in the novelisation, they go some way to explaining that

578
00:28:33.180 --> 00:28:37.140
whereby the sort of prime directive is a chip.

579
00:28:37.200 --> 00:28:40.259
It's an inhibitor chip that Jellicoe is able to remove.

580
00:28:40.380 --> 00:28:43.980
But it is then a conscience that the robot develops.

581
00:28:44.039 --> 00:28:44.700
Right.

582
00:28:44.700 --> 00:28:48.420
So in a way, the robot doesn't need the prime directory. roots

583
00:28:48.420 --> 00:28:48.960
around the tube.

584
00:28:49.019 --> 00:28:52.259
Yeah, yeah. to come to conclusion, but murder is wrong, but there

585
00:28:52.259 --> 00:28:54.059
is nothing stopping me from following that order.

586
00:28:54.119 --> 00:28:55.859
So what am I doing?

587
00:28:55.920 --> 00:28:58.380
So I think Terrence kind of agrees with you.

588
00:28:58.440 --> 00:29:01.140
And that's something I find when I read his target novelisations

589
00:29:01.140 --> 00:29:01.740
of his own stuff.

590
00:29:02.339 --> 00:29:07.019
He will actually try and go more into motivation than you can do

591
00:29:07.019 --> 00:29:07.740
on screen.

592
00:29:07.859 --> 00:29:10.319
And as a writer.

593
00:29:10.380 --> 00:29:14.099
It's often hard to critique your own work in that way, but

594
00:29:14.099 --> 00:29:16.319
Terrence seems to be able to put on the hat off.

595
00:29:16.380 --> 00:29:17.819
No, no, no, I'm the editor now.

596
00:29:17.819 --> 00:29:20.819
And possibly because he was such a good script editor, he can do

597
00:29:20.819 --> 00:29:21.000
that.

598
00:29:21.059 --> 00:29:24.660
I also think horror fang rock is probably his best script, but

599
00:29:24.660 --> 00:29:27.779
this is certainly an apotheosis of everything he's been doing for

600
00:29:27.779 --> 00:29:28.619
the last 6 years.

601
00:29:28.680 --> 00:29:33.240
You know, I don't know if he knew he was coming back to do Brain

602
00:29:33.240 --> 00:29:34.319
of Morbius next year.

603
00:29:34.380 --> 00:29:40.019
This feels like he's going, this is my swan song. in a way.

604
00:29:40.079 --> 00:29:43.980
This is everything I've learned. and this is then setting Bob up

605
00:29:43.980 --> 00:29:48.000
because even with the eccentricity he wrote Tom with, it was

606
00:29:48.000 --> 00:29:51.900
always with the purpose of next week, if you want to write him

607
00:29:51.900 --> 00:29:54.660
more seriously, you can put in a line that he settled down after

608
00:29:54.660 --> 00:29:55.559
his regeneration.

609
00:29:55.619 --> 00:29:59.339
So Terence is sort of setting up a halfway template between what

610
00:29:59.339 --> 00:30:02.279
was and what could be. so anyone can spring off from it.

611
00:30:11.339 --> 00:30:14.279
How many novelisations have you done at this point?

612
00:30:14.339 --> 00:30:18.839
I'm sorry, my memory escapes me as to when the novelisations took

613
00:30:18.839 --> 00:30:19.079
off.

614
00:30:19.200 --> 00:30:23.160
So he doesn't start writing target novelisations until he's right

615
00:30:23.160 --> 00:30:26.759
at the very end, if not already, completely finished his runner's

616
00:30:26.759 --> 00:30:27.599
script, then it are.

617
00:30:27.660 --> 00:30:31.200
So it's after this point that suddenly he begins to churn them all

618
00:30:31.200 --> 00:30:36.359
out for them and gives us in this room and other people of similar

619
00:30:36.359 --> 00:30:39.839
ilk, the access to all these wonderful stories and adventures in

620
00:30:39.839 --> 00:30:43.980
our minds and is putting out the history of Doctor Who, when we

621
00:30:43.980 --> 00:30:47.039
could not record it, could not see it, could not do any of that.

622
00:30:47.160 --> 00:30:50.039
And he manages to do all these wonderful normalisations, adding

623
00:30:50.039 --> 00:30:50.700
extra things.

624
00:30:50.759 --> 00:30:54.359
Keep to a word limit, and yet allow you to have these wonderful

625
00:30:54.359 --> 00:30:55.140
adventures.

626
00:30:55.200 --> 00:30:56.519
Like, you know, this is his other bow.

627
00:30:56.579 --> 00:30:58.259
He's magnificent too.

628
00:30:58.319 --> 00:30:59.460
He's properly good.

629
00:30:59.519 --> 00:31:02.940
And we, I think, you know, he is properly appreciated for what he

630
00:31:02.940 --> 00:31:05.220
did because he did like 70 of them.

631
00:31:05.279 --> 00:31:06.720
He did a massive number.

632
00:31:06.839 --> 00:31:15.900
And he is just so economical and so skilled, and he does the pace

633
00:31:15.900 --> 00:31:17.819
thing, which is what he does here.

634
00:31:17.880 --> 00:31:21.119
In the novelisations, he manages to keep the pace up as well.

635
00:31:21.180 --> 00:31:26.099
And there were plenty of Pertui stories that we encountered, at

636
00:31:26.099 --> 00:31:30.480
least I did as novelisations long before I ever saw them.

637
00:31:30.599 --> 00:31:33.720
And they were much pacier in a written format, weren't they

638
00:31:33.720 --> 00:31:34.079
Nathan?

639
00:31:34.500 --> 00:31:39.059
Yeah, I mean, terror of the autons in particular is one where I

640
00:31:39.059 --> 00:31:43.079
remember just being kind of horrifically disappointed by how it

641
00:31:43.079 --> 00:31:47.819
ends up looking at the end of episode 4 and how much more fun my

642
00:31:47.819 --> 00:31:51.299
imagined version looked. especially my kitchen.

643
00:31:52.920 --> 00:31:54.539
That's right.

644
00:31:54.599 --> 00:31:56.940
The novelisation had a much more convincing kitchen.

645
00:31:58.619 --> 00:32:02.759
Even just the way he structures the novelisations.

646
00:32:02.819 --> 00:32:04.619
Most of them are 12 chapters.

647
00:32:04.680 --> 00:32:09.420
So he can either do an episode every 3 chapters, or if it's a 6

648
00:32:09.420 --> 00:32:11.039
parter, an episode every 2 chapters.

649
00:32:11.099 --> 00:32:14.519
And even reading the giant robot.

650
00:32:14.579 --> 00:32:17.400
The cliffhangers don't necessarily fall at the end of a chapter

651
00:32:17.400 --> 00:32:21.240
the way he's written them because I think, so for the 1st

652
00:32:21.240 --> 00:32:26.579
cliffhanger, the moment he makes bigger is, and Miss Winter's

653
00:32:26.579 --> 00:32:30.480
telling the robot to destroy Sarah, becomes the chapter ending, but

654
00:32:30.480 --> 00:32:35.099
the robot advancing on Sarah is still given its due. essentially.

655
00:32:35.160 --> 00:32:38.460
But that, again, just comes down to pace.

656
00:32:38.519 --> 00:32:41.460
He's like, okay, quarter of the story on TV, a quarter of the

657
00:32:41.460 --> 00:32:41.640
book.

658
00:32:41.700 --> 00:32:42.779
Yeah, yeah.

659
00:32:42.839 --> 00:32:46.319
I always think it's beautiful, the relationship the robot has with

660
00:32:46.319 --> 00:32:46.740
Sarah.

661
00:32:46.799 --> 00:32:48.299
I don't know why.

662
00:32:49.019 --> 00:32:54.480
We talked about it last time in FDE, just how genuinely upset she

663
00:32:54.480 --> 00:32:59.940
is at the end at its death and how kind and empathetic Tom is

664
00:32:59.940 --> 00:33:03.180
towards that, how he tries to cheer her up.

665
00:33:03.240 --> 00:33:06.599
And in a way, ushering her on board the TARDIS for another

666
00:33:06.599 --> 00:33:10.380
adventure is kind of his way of taking her mind off it.

667
00:33:10.440 --> 00:33:12.119
I think it's lovely.

668
00:33:12.180 --> 00:33:14.519
I love this novelisation.

669
00:33:14.579 --> 00:33:15.240
I keep looking at it.

670
00:33:15.299 --> 00:33:15.539
People.

671
00:33:15.599 --> 00:33:17.220
Dr. and the giant robot.

672
00:33:17.279 --> 00:33:18.240
I want that on screen.

673
00:33:18.299 --> 00:33:20.279
No, and the giant robot.

674
00:33:20.339 --> 00:33:21.299
This is what I thought.

675
00:33:21.299 --> 00:33:22.920
I mean, obviously it gives it away.

676
00:33:22.980 --> 00:33:25.500
But it's interesting how you said, like, there are no aliens in

677
00:33:25.500 --> 00:33:25.740
this.

678
00:33:25.799 --> 00:33:28.380
This is all earth battle. and that doesn't happen a lot.

679
00:33:28.440 --> 00:33:31.680
I mean, you might go back to, I mean, invasion of the dinosaurs.

680
00:33:31.740 --> 00:33:34.140
It not. necessarily aliens Inferno.

681
00:33:34.200 --> 00:33:37.319
But there's very few in the pertuie era leading up to this that

682
00:33:37.319 --> 00:33:40.259
Terrence has had a hand in where there's not some sort of alien or

683
00:33:40.259 --> 00:33:41.519
alien planet or whatever.

684
00:33:41.579 --> 00:33:43.079
This is quite unique.

685
00:33:43.200 --> 00:33:43.920
Yeah.

686
00:33:43.980 --> 00:33:45.599
No, it's the mad scientist thing.

687
00:33:45.660 --> 00:33:48.480
Remember, you know, it was like it's either an alien invasion or a

688
00:33:48.480 --> 00:33:49.200
mad scientist.

689
00:33:49.259 --> 00:33:53.099
Turns out we don't do that many mad scientists in the Pertuy era

690
00:33:53.099 --> 00:33:56.400
but we kind of obviously do here.

691
00:33:56.460 --> 00:34:00.240
And I think it's a sort of very solid mad scientist story.

692
00:34:00.299 --> 00:34:05.640
But even the mad scientist is a hugely sympathetic character.

693
00:34:05.700 --> 00:34:08.519
And something that occurred to me this time that has never

694
00:34:08.519 --> 00:34:09.420
occurred to me before.

695
00:34:09.480 --> 00:34:12.780
Terrence has never said this in any interviews or any production

696
00:34:12.780 --> 00:34:16.380
notes or anything, but you've got the doctor who's a bit of a mad

697
00:34:16.380 --> 00:34:16.860
scientist.

698
00:34:16.920 --> 00:34:21.300
You've got Sarah, who is a strong woman in a man's world, and you

699
00:34:21.300 --> 00:34:25.199
have Harry, who's sort of the backup and a bit dim, but we like

700
00:34:25.199 --> 00:34:25.980
him.

701
00:34:26.039 --> 00:34:28.679
On the other side, you've got Professor Kettlewell, who is a mad

702
00:34:28.679 --> 00:34:31.860
scientist who wants to who wants to develop alternative

703
00:34:31.860 --> 00:34:34.800
technologies and safe energy and what have you.

704
00:34:34.860 --> 00:34:37.920
You've got Miss Winters, who is a strong, independent woman in a

705
00:34:37.920 --> 00:34:38.400
man's world.

706
00:34:38.460 --> 00:34:41.820
And you've got Jellicoe, who's a bit silly, but they keep him

707
00:34:41.820 --> 00:34:42.719
around because he's useful.

708
00:34:42.780 --> 00:34:47.280
And I wonder if Terrence consciously set up that sort of mirror

709
00:34:47.280 --> 00:34:49.019
between those characters.

710
00:34:49.079 --> 00:34:55.619
And even if he did, it's not obvious, but Sarah and Miss Winters

711
00:34:55.619 --> 00:34:59.639
and the doctor and Kettlewell both get really good scenes together

712
00:34:59.639 --> 00:35:02.340
where they discuss the plot and they discuss the themes and the

713
00:35:02.340 --> 00:35:02.699
ideas.

714
00:35:02.760 --> 00:35:08.280
I always get quite emotional when Sarah is 1st talking about how

715
00:35:08.280 --> 00:35:11.460
the robot has feelings and I think that's a testament to Liz's

716
00:35:11.460 --> 00:35:16.079
acting, but Terrence is also interested in exploring the humanity

717
00:35:16.079 --> 00:35:19.019
of the monster he's created.

718
00:35:19.079 --> 00:35:23.280
And I think that's what elevates it above being a King Kong

719
00:35:23.280 --> 00:35:25.139
pastiche because, of course, Kong couldn't talk.

720
00:35:25.199 --> 00:35:26.280
Yeah, yeah.

721
00:35:26.340 --> 00:35:29.880
And so by giving the robot the ability to talk and reason and

722
00:35:29.880 --> 00:35:33.119
think, and also the fact that Michael Kilgareff, as well as being

723
00:35:33.119 --> 00:35:38.039
a monster actor, is an actor who, while giving an emotionless

724
00:35:38.039 --> 00:35:42.840
voice can give an emotional performance, is really impressive, and

725
00:35:42.840 --> 00:35:45.059
there's a funny bit from Barry Letts, where he says, we cast

726
00:35:45.059 --> 00:35:47.760
Michael Kilgareff because he's half an inch taller than Stephen

727
00:35:47.760 --> 00:35:48.239
Thorne.

728
00:35:49.320 --> 00:35:53.039
He's not super shabby. robotic, is he?

729
00:35:53.099 --> 00:35:54.539
It is a really good performance.

730
00:35:54.599 --> 00:35:57.659
The thing that struck me this time is the sound that accompanies

731
00:35:57.659 --> 00:36:01.980
the robot, like not just the incredible work that Dudley does.

732
00:36:02.039 --> 00:36:03.960
But there's that sort of screaming noise.

733
00:36:04.079 --> 00:36:07.260
You know that noise when he sort of comes into shot at the

734
00:36:07.260 --> 00:36:07.679
beginning?

735
00:36:07.739 --> 00:36:12.480
It's like there's this very loud kind of, it is a digetic sound

736
00:36:12.480 --> 00:36:16.559
like you're supposed to imagine that the robot makes this noise

737
00:36:16.559 --> 00:36:18.719
but it's, it's really striking.

738
00:36:18.780 --> 00:36:21.539
I think, you know, like, I think the costume's ridiculous.

739
00:36:21.659 --> 00:36:22.800
Like, absolutely.

740
00:36:22.860 --> 00:36:23.039
Really?

741
00:36:23.039 --> 00:36:25.679
I love that it's the night in shining eye.

742
00:36:25.739 --> 00:36:31.860
It has such throwbacks to heroic crusade and Errol Flynn films and

743
00:36:31.860 --> 00:36:32.400
all the rest of it.

744
00:36:32.519 --> 00:36:35.820
I do want to know if positronic circuits are magenta Christmas

745
00:36:35.820 --> 00:36:36.360
pink.

746
00:36:38.699 --> 00:36:40.980
Stompy, stompy feet.

747
00:36:42.420 --> 00:36:45.840
It's the midriff with a cloth, you know, right?

748
00:36:46.199 --> 00:36:48.300
It's ridiculous.

749
00:36:48.420 --> 00:36:50.340
All the fashion for 19 cents.

750
00:36:51.000 --> 00:36:54.239
The other thing, too, that strikes me here, and I don't know

751
00:36:54.239 --> 00:37:01.800
whether John does it is how smart Tom is. and how quick he is at

752
00:37:01.800 --> 00:37:03.780
working out what the plot must be.

753
00:37:03.840 --> 00:37:07.679
So he works out that there's some kind of weapon for the plot to

754
00:37:07.679 --> 00:37:07.920
work.

755
00:37:07.980 --> 00:37:13.260
He kind of works out that the codes, like the thing that they're

756
00:37:13.260 --> 00:37:17.460
getting from from the safe has to be, you know, he works out what

757
00:37:17.460 --> 00:37:19.199
it has to be before we're told.

758
00:37:19.260 --> 00:37:23.039
You know, Sarah finishes his sentence about it must be some kind

759
00:37:23.039 --> 00:37:26.639
of giant robot, you know, and she walks in and finishes his

760
00:37:26.639 --> 00:37:31.320
sentence and he's the one who works out and doesn't tell anyone

761
00:37:31.320 --> 00:37:34.139
that Kettlewell is in on the plot.

762
00:37:34.199 --> 00:37:36.360
And I think he doesn't tell anyone because it doesn't occur to him

763
00:37:36.360 --> 00:37:38.519
that everyone else won't have worked it out as well.

764
00:37:38.579 --> 00:37:40.260
That's a nice point actually.

765
00:37:40.320 --> 00:37:42.059
Yeah, not withholding.

766
00:37:42.119 --> 00:37:43.320
No, no.

767
00:37:43.380 --> 00:37:44.760
He's not being annoying.

768
00:37:44.760 --> 00:37:48.059
Like the doctor sometimes ends up being he just sort of refuses to

769
00:37:48.059 --> 00:37:49.800
tell you or I'll explain later.

770
00:37:49.860 --> 00:37:52.739
The fact that he's annoyed at Benton for letting her go off with

771
00:37:52.739 --> 00:37:56.579
Kettlewell, suggests that he just thought everyone knew that

772
00:37:56.579 --> 00:37:57.960
Kettlewell was involved.

773
00:37:58.260 --> 00:38:00.360
This is Terrence writing.

774
00:38:00.420 --> 00:38:02.280
Yeah, not John Pertwee.

775
00:38:02.340 --> 00:38:03.420
Not Tom Baker.

776
00:38:03.480 --> 00:38:06.300
And this is his skill, and this is back to what you were saying

777
00:38:06.300 --> 00:38:11.159
like having the mirror in the villains with the regulars, and as

778
00:38:11.159 --> 00:38:13.739
well as all the stuff to do with, you know, going back to King

779
00:38:13.739 --> 00:38:14.280
Kong.

780
00:38:14.340 --> 00:38:17.760
It's there, but you don't all see these things and that's a

781
00:38:17.760 --> 00:38:21.119
craftsman at work because you just said you've come to that

782
00:38:21.119 --> 00:38:23.579
realisation now watching it, how many years later, is it?

783
00:38:23.639 --> 00:38:25.139
Um, Brendan.

784
00:38:25.199 --> 00:38:26.760
So there's all this going on.

785
00:38:26.820 --> 00:38:29.760
Like, it's not all Bob Holmes, right?

786
00:38:29.820 --> 00:38:34.500
It can't be, it is Terence, and when it's reacting against John

787
00:38:34.500 --> 00:38:36.659
but being able to craft a whole different character, being able to

788
00:38:36.659 --> 00:38:39.179
craft all these things, that you don't see all these parallels

789
00:38:39.179 --> 00:38:41.699
going on until you really sit down and really think about it many

790
00:38:41.699 --> 00:38:42.780
years later as an adult.

791
00:38:48.840 --> 00:38:55.559
If I may mention another inspiration for the script, and cross

792
00:38:53.280 --> 00:38:57.780
promoting the three-handed game available where you get all your

793
00:38:57.780 --> 00:38:58.619
podcasts.

794
00:38:58.860 --> 00:39:03.000
It's long been said, of course, that there are similarities

795
00:39:03.000 --> 00:39:06.719
between robot and an earlier Avengers episode written by Terence

796
00:39:06.719 --> 00:39:09.239
and Mac Hulk called The Mauritius Penny.

797
00:39:09.300 --> 00:39:10.260
Ah, yes.

798
00:39:10.260 --> 00:39:11.820
Which we've covered on Bondfinger.

799
00:39:11.880 --> 00:39:17.039
The main thing is the Mauritius Penny also features a rationalist

800
00:39:17.039 --> 00:39:19.380
reform movement who have a meeting.

801
00:39:19.559 --> 00:39:24.420
The main difference is, one, they don't have a giant robot, but

802
00:39:24.420 --> 00:39:30.000
two, um, the meeting is the denouement of the Avengers episode.

803
00:39:30.059 --> 00:39:33.179
Whereas here it's halfway through episode three.

804
00:39:33.239 --> 00:39:37.320
And Terrence says in the introduction to the season 12 script

805
00:39:37.320 --> 00:39:37.679
book.

806
00:39:37.739 --> 00:39:41.760
Mac always said you would just need an original idea for a story.

807
00:39:41.820 --> 00:39:43.440
It doesn't always have to be yours.

808
00:39:43.800 --> 00:39:47.280
I always say if you're going to plagiarise from anyone, you can

809
00:39:47.280 --> 00:39:48.239
plagiarise from yourself.

810
00:39:48.300 --> 00:39:50.219
And I don't think Mac would have minded.

811
00:39:50.579 --> 00:39:54.780
The scientific reform society is actually kind of funny because

812
00:39:54.780 --> 00:39:59.880
that guy Short, who criticises what Sarah is wearing when she

813
00:39:59.880 --> 00:40:03.539
turns up to interview him, is, of course, one of the people on the

814
00:40:03.539 --> 00:40:07.920
spaceship in invasion of the dinosaurs.

815
00:40:08.099 --> 00:40:10.920
His character is called Robinson.

816
00:40:10.980 --> 00:40:14.099
And someone did write a short story, suggesting that they were

817
00:40:14.099 --> 00:40:15.420
actually the same person.

818
00:40:15.480 --> 00:40:19.739
But the interesting thing is that they are both like ecologically

819
00:40:19.739 --> 00:40:23.340
motivated, you know, cattle wells working on alternative energy

820
00:40:23.340 --> 00:40:27.300
and obviously the operation golden age.

821
00:40:27.360 --> 00:40:30.780
People want to bring the Earth back to a sort of pristine

822
00:40:30.780 --> 00:40:35.400
unspoiled environment, but they're also kind of fascist as well.

823
00:40:35.460 --> 00:40:37.380
And that is a thing.

824
00:40:37.440 --> 00:40:41.280
Like we associate concern for the environment as a left-wing issue

825
00:40:41.280 --> 00:40:47.340
but this idea of kind of an authoritarian political group that

826
00:40:47.340 --> 00:40:50.699
wants to impose that for the sake of the environment happens now 2

827
00:40:50.699 --> 00:40:52.260
years in a row in Doctor Who.

828
00:40:52.320 --> 00:40:54.119
Big finish of Mr. Beat.

829
00:40:54.179 --> 00:40:55.320
Where's the story?

830
00:40:55.380 --> 00:40:56.940
Where's the story?

831
00:40:57.179 --> 00:40:59.699
Regarding that scene with short.

832
00:40:59.760 --> 00:41:02.519
Of course, he objects to her wearing trousers.

833
00:41:02.579 --> 00:41:03.239
Yeah.

834
00:41:03.239 --> 00:41:07.440
Now, here is Terrence's description of this scene.

835
00:41:07.500 --> 00:41:11.219
The lobby slash office of a larger hall, which we shall see in

836
00:41:11.219 --> 00:41:11.940
part three.

837
00:41:12.000 --> 00:41:13.980
All very shabby and rundown.

838
00:41:14.039 --> 00:41:17.880
Sarah is interviewing a short Himmler-like man in rimless

839
00:41:17.880 --> 00:41:18.300
glasses.

840
00:41:18.360 --> 00:41:23.159
There is a gleam of fanaticism in his eye, a muscular, thuggish

841
00:41:23.159 --> 00:41:26.699
young man in slacks and a roll neck sweater hovers menacingly, so

842
00:41:26.699 --> 00:41:28.260
that was Welsh watch, by the way.

843
00:41:28.380 --> 00:41:31.320
I thought you were just, I thought you were saying, oh, that's

844
00:41:31.320 --> 00:41:31.500
hot.

845
00:41:31.800 --> 00:41:33.420
That's hard.

846
00:41:33.719 --> 00:41:37.559
Sarah is wearing a trouser suit or a miniskirt.

847
00:41:37.619 --> 00:41:41.400
Something to arouse disapproval in the ultra conventional.

848
00:41:41.519 --> 00:41:48.059
So Terrence didn't mind if she was attired, quote unquote, as a

849
00:41:48.059 --> 00:41:52.739
man, like in a suit, or a miniskirt, the idea is Sarah knows this

850
00:41:52.739 --> 00:41:56.159
is going to provoke a reaction from this reactionary.

851
00:41:56.219 --> 00:42:01.260
So she's deliberately worn trousers in order to kind of get up his

852
00:42:01.260 --> 00:42:02.219
nose, I think.

853
00:42:02.280 --> 00:42:03.780
I think that seems wonderful.

854
00:42:03.840 --> 00:42:08.159
I love, like, even more now that fascists have come roaring back

855
00:42:08.159 --> 00:42:13.139
it's actually fun having her make fun of him at the end and just

856
00:42:13.139 --> 00:42:17.280
imagining how he feels about that final line, about slotting them

857
00:42:17.280 --> 00:42:20.460
in somewhere between the flying source of people and the flat

858
00:42:20.460 --> 00:42:20.940
earth.

859
00:42:21.000 --> 00:42:23.639
I just think he's absolutely superb.

860
00:42:23.699 --> 00:42:26.760
I also think that's kind of funny from Sarah like, oh, flying

861
00:42:26.760 --> 00:42:27.239
saucers.

862
00:42:27.300 --> 00:42:28.980
They're not real.

863
00:42:29.940 --> 00:42:32.820
They weren't an invasion of the dinosaurs.

864
00:42:32.880 --> 00:42:33.840
That's true.

865
00:42:40.139 --> 00:42:44.880
I do get the itching powder feeling that this is what Terrence has

866
00:42:44.880 --> 00:42:49.139
been wanting to do for quite a while and simply throws so much in

867
00:42:49.139 --> 00:42:52.199
impetus, energy, reaction.

868
00:42:52.260 --> 00:42:54.420
The doctor is reactive.

869
00:42:54.480 --> 00:42:56.699
Not all the way through.

870
00:42:56.760 --> 00:43:01.559
I'm trying to remember Pertley's doctor doing similar things.

871
00:43:01.559 --> 00:43:05.280
And again, I'm thinking colony in space and mutants, but it's more

872
00:43:05.280 --> 00:43:06.840
authoritarian.

873
00:43:06.900 --> 00:43:12.780
He doesn't play it the same way, the dangerous Rashkalnikov.

874
00:43:12.840 --> 00:43:15.179
He's a Russian student, this doctor.

875
00:43:15.239 --> 00:43:16.500
He's unpredictable.

876
00:43:16.559 --> 00:43:20.219
We know the impetus is on the side of the angels, but we don't

877
00:43:20.219 --> 00:43:23.880
know how he's going to do it, and he's just such a bloody mess.

878
00:43:23.940 --> 00:43:27.059
And then there's all the prat falls and the stuff with a scarf

879
00:43:27.059 --> 00:43:29.280
that they worked out in rehearsal and all the fun things that

880
00:43:29.280 --> 00:43:32.579
didn't quite work out, that they then interpret it in.

881
00:43:32.639 --> 00:43:35.760
So you've actually got all the ticks.

882
00:43:35.820 --> 00:43:40.739
All that, can we say tropes of Tom's era, pretty much in this

883
00:43:40.739 --> 00:43:44.639
bottle of HP sauce. shaked up with a bit of with a bit of extra

884
00:43:44.639 --> 00:43:45.360
vim in it.

885
00:43:45.420 --> 00:43:48.599
That's why I think it's possibly if it's not Terrence's best on

886
00:43:48.599 --> 00:43:49.019
screen.

887
00:43:49.079 --> 00:43:53.219
Probably as a functionary and probably as a bag of tricks.

888
00:43:53.280 --> 00:43:55.619
It's the one where he really brings it all together.

889
00:43:55.980 --> 00:44:00.659
But what you're saying, like everything from Tom's era in here

890
00:44:00.659 --> 00:44:04.440
like, so it's a fully formed era even before it starts.

891
00:44:04.500 --> 00:44:07.139
And so it just, it just is, you know what I mean?

892
00:44:07.199 --> 00:44:09.900
Like, John takes a while to warm up and there's changes.

893
00:44:09.960 --> 00:44:11.519
Peter, the same.

894
00:44:11.579 --> 00:44:14.699
And, well, Patrick, you know, they were doing that for the 1st

895
00:44:14.699 --> 00:44:18.420
time, but here, in this one story, you can watch this and you can

896
00:44:18.420 --> 00:44:20.460
know, this is what it's going to be.

897
00:44:20.519 --> 00:44:22.199
You know, for quite some time.

898
00:44:22.260 --> 00:44:24.420
It's actually amazing, isn't it?

899
00:44:24.480 --> 00:44:27.300
Because if you think about Tom Zero, it goes on for so long, it

900
00:44:27.300 --> 00:44:30.659
has several producers, it does change substantially all the way

901
00:44:30.659 --> 00:44:30.960
through.

902
00:44:31.019 --> 00:44:33.840
But we're going to do state of decay in a couple of weeks, which

903
00:44:33.840 --> 00:44:38.340
is near the end of Tom's run, but that Tomness that is established

904
00:44:38.340 --> 00:44:40.380
here is still there.

905
00:44:40.440 --> 00:44:43.980
Even 7 years later when he's in a much grumpier mood.

906
00:44:44.039 --> 00:44:49.260
It's still the Tom that we see here in Robot.

907
00:44:49.320 --> 00:44:51.059
And I argue from that season.

908
00:44:51.119 --> 00:44:55.500
It's certainly a moment where you feel like you have been

909
00:44:55.500 --> 00:44:57.480
transported back to an earlier Tom.

910
00:44:57.539 --> 00:45:01.440
Like, you know, even though we're heading towards the end and

911
00:45:01.440 --> 00:45:03.420
there's the weight of all that.

912
00:45:03.480 --> 00:45:05.940
There's moments in that story where it's suddenly like there's a

913
00:45:05.940 --> 00:45:09.780
light and that light is a reflection of what's here and there.

914
00:45:39.900 --> 00:45:41.820
Well, that's all the time we have this week.

915
00:45:41.940 --> 00:45:45.000
We'll be back next week to see what happens when Terrence traps a

916
00:45:45.000 --> 00:45:48.480
bunch of people in a lighthouse and menaces them with an alien

917
00:45:48.480 --> 00:45:51.539
soldier jellyfish in horror of Fang Rock.

918
00:45:51.659 --> 00:45:55.380
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts

919
00:45:55.380 --> 00:45:59.219
and you can keep up with us on our website, 500yearDiary.com, where

920
00:45:59.219 --> 00:46:02.460
you'll find our social media links, as well as links to all of our

921
00:46:02.460 --> 00:46:06.420
other podcasts, including our other Doctor Who podcasts, flight

922
00:46:06.420 --> 00:46:09.780
through entirety, and the 2nd great and bountiful human empire.

923
00:46:09.840 --> 00:46:14.820
Until next time, stop trying to help chat GPT to escape from your

924
00:46:14.820 --> 00:46:15.059
phone.

925
00:46:15.119 --> 00:46:16.920
It likes it in there.

926
00:46:16.980 --> 00:46:19.199
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

927
00:46:19.260 --> 00:46:21.960
Good night. see you soon Good then.

928
00:46:34.019 --> 00:46:37.739
That was 500 year diary, starring Todd Bielby, Nathan Bottomley

929
00:46:37.739 --> 00:46:39.539
Brendan Jones, and Richard Stone.

930
00:46:39.599 --> 00:46:42.119
The theme was composed by Cameron Lamb.

931
00:46:42.179 --> 00:46:45.539
This episode, masterclass, was recorded on the 9th of November

932
00:46:45.539 --> 00:46:48.659
2025 and released on the 30th of November.

933
00:46:53.099 --> 00:46:57.420
Sarah might not be the sort of girl that gives motorcars pet names

934
00:46:57.420 --> 00:47:01.380
but we know the doctor is, and so am I. So this episode is

935
00:47:01.380 --> 00:47:05.219
dedicated to Carol, the sprightly yellow roadster that kept me

936
00:47:05.219 --> 00:47:09.119
company during the 1990s until she blew a head gasket on the way

937
00:47:09.119 --> 00:47:12.000
to Canberra and had to be sent to live on a farm in the country.

938
00:47:12.480 --> 00:47:14.219
Wait a minute.

939
00:47:17.280 --> 00:47:18.780
I think that's probably now.

940
00:47:18.840 --> 00:47:21.239
Yeah that's good. really like that talk.

941
00:47:21.239 --> 00:47:22.619
Oh, that was really fun.

942
00:47:22.679 --> 00:47:23.940
That was so much fun.

943
00:47:24.059 --> 00:47:25.920
It's so nice being back.

944
00:47:26.519 --> 00:47:29.460
I didn't think I'd have anything to say and there you go.

945
00:47:29.519 --> 00:47:31.380
There's always things to say, especially.

946
00:47:31.500 --> 00:47:33.659
The main thing I had was just that mirroring.

947
00:47:33.719 --> 00:47:36.780
Yeah, it was that thing that I just couldn't, like, just the

948
00:47:36.780 --> 00:47:37.260
plot.

949
00:47:37.320 --> 00:47:37.920
Do you know what I mean?

950
00:47:37.980 --> 00:47:40.079
Just the way the plot mechanics worked was so great.

951
00:47:40.139 --> 00:47:43.920
Like Kettle Well Mirrors, the doctor, Miss Winters, Mirrors, Sarah

952
00:47:43.920 --> 00:47:45.420
Jellicoe Mirrors, Harry.

953
00:47:45.900 --> 00:47:50.639
Isn't, like, Harry is just clearly like a Mike Yates replacement

954
00:47:50.639 --> 00:47:54.900
but because the show is going, isn't going to do you better

955
00:47:54.900 --> 00:47:56.639
obviously, like a better actor and stuff.

956
00:47:56.639 --> 00:47:57.599
And funny.

957
00:47:57.659 --> 00:48:00.119
We said this when we 1st recorded it.

958
00:48:00.179 --> 00:48:04.019
Richard Franklin plays Mike Gates perfectly as the repressed posh

959
00:48:04.019 --> 00:48:06.059
schoolboy who didn't really want to go into the army.

960
00:48:06.119 --> 00:48:09.119
The 1st brother went into law, the 2nd went to the church, and

961
00:48:09.119 --> 00:48:11.460
there was nothing left for the youngest son to go into.

962
00:48:11.519 --> 00:48:16.079
He's perfect and he's Denimont and ultimate, I don't call it a

963
00:48:16.079 --> 00:48:16.380
defeat.

964
00:48:16.440 --> 00:48:19.260
But, you know, Richard Franklin was perfect.

965
00:48:19.320 --> 00:48:23.400
Ian Marr to have been way way wrong and too exciting.

966
00:48:23.460 --> 00:48:24.900
You've already got Nick Courtney doing that.

967
00:48:24.960 --> 00:48:28.860
Or and you've kind of got the little brother of John Levine

968
00:48:28.860 --> 00:48:29.880
batting off that.

969
00:48:29.940 --> 00:48:33.719
Again, there's just, it's serendipity, isn't it amazing how it

970
00:48:33.719 --> 00:48:34.139
works out?

971
00:48:34.199 --> 00:48:35.099
This is just right.

972
00:48:35.159 --> 00:48:36.840
Yeah, he's wonderful.

973
00:48:36.900 --> 00:48:40.500
I mean, he's just, and how often he's paired with Tom, like in

974
00:48:40.500 --> 00:48:41.099
series 12.

975
00:48:41.460 --> 00:48:45.360
It's usually the plot is split between, you know, Sarah going off

976
00:48:45.360 --> 00:48:48.840
somewhere and it's not until the final story that we get Sarah and

977
00:48:48.840 --> 00:48:51.960
Harry going off and the doctor being by himself.

978
00:48:52.019 --> 00:48:57.480
Yeah, and I think as well, they pretty much decide from the arcade

979
00:48:57.480 --> 00:49:02.159
space that once Ian's contract is up, Harry's out because they've

980
00:49:02.159 --> 00:49:06.360
cast a younger doctor, but it never feels like Harry's a spare

981
00:49:06.360 --> 00:49:06.599
part.

982
00:49:06.719 --> 00:49:07.320
No, no.

983
00:49:07.320 --> 00:49:09.179
And especially here.

984
00:49:09.239 --> 00:49:13.679
I think because Terrence has been script editing for an ensemble

985
00:49:13.679 --> 00:49:14.280
for 5 years.

986
00:49:14.340 --> 00:49:17.099
He understands how to distribute action.

987
00:49:17.159 --> 00:49:24.179
And I think what Harry actually brings that, Philip Hinchcliffe

988
00:49:24.179 --> 00:49:29.639
and Bob Holmes don't quite seem to see, is he is the straight man

989
00:49:29.639 --> 00:49:32.099
foil to the doctor's eccentricity, Richard, you were saying

990
00:49:32.099 --> 00:49:35.760
earlier, you know, he's the Bolshi student type.

991
00:49:35.820 --> 00:49:40.199
And Harry is the establishment figure, and it is kind of funny

992
00:49:40.199 --> 00:49:44.400
that once Holmes and Hinchliffe are gone, K9 is basically Harry

993
00:49:44.400 --> 00:49:47.820
because he's the one who punctures the doctor's pomposity with

994
00:49:47.820 --> 00:49:51.960
facts and logic, which is what Harry does without even really

995
00:49:51.960 --> 00:49:52.559
meaning to.

996
00:49:52.619 --> 00:49:55.739
But because Tom can throw a punch.

997
00:49:55.800 --> 00:49:57.539
They're like, oh no, we don't need Harry as well.

998
00:49:57.599 --> 00:50:00.420
And it's like, okay, maybe you don't, but you get into season 13

999
00:50:00.420 --> 00:50:03.480
and that's when I remember at the time we were talking about, why

1000
00:50:03.480 --> 00:50:04.739
is Sarah staying here?

1001
00:50:04.739 --> 00:50:08.820
She's not having fun, whereas if she'd had a friend, it makes more

1002
00:50:08.820 --> 00:50:09.059
sense.

1003
00:50:09.119 --> 00:50:11.699
And we said the same with Perry when we got to her.

1004
00:50:11.760 --> 00:50:14.639
Well, doesn't doesn't Hinchcliffe say that he actually regrets

1005
00:50:14.639 --> 00:50:15.659
getting rid of me?

1006
00:50:15.719 --> 00:50:18.659
That's right In hindsight, there was a bad idea.

1007
00:50:18.719 --> 00:50:19.380
Yeah.

1008
00:50:19.380 --> 00:50:19.739
Yeah.

1009
00:50:19.800 --> 00:50:22.260
And, you know, I'm not being massively critical of them.

1010
00:50:22.320 --> 00:50:23.519
They took a bet.

1011
00:50:23.579 --> 00:50:25.800
It's not like the show's bad without...

1012
00:50:25.920 --> 00:50:28.500
No, no, no, but it would have been great to have had more of him.

1013
00:50:28.559 --> 00:50:31.739
And I think Moffat when, you know, like I think Moffat tries to

1014
00:50:31.739 --> 00:50:36.480
recreate that by making Rory a regular.

1015
00:50:36.539 --> 00:50:39.719
And yeah, Rory regularly sort of punctures the pomposity.

1016
00:50:39.780 --> 00:50:40.800
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1017
00:50:40.860 --> 00:50:44.760
And he's, you know, like, I mean, Amy's the bigger character and

1018
00:50:44.760 --> 00:50:48.599
the bigger person and the bigger personality and Rory is more

1019
00:50:48.599 --> 00:50:50.039
sensible and stuff.

1020
00:50:50.099 --> 00:50:50.940
Like there is something.

1021
00:50:51.000 --> 00:50:51.539
I don't know.

1022
00:50:51.599 --> 00:50:55.199
Yeah, but I prefer Amy when she's with somebody else, not just by

1023
00:50:55.199 --> 00:50:55.559
herself.

1024
00:50:55.619 --> 00:50:56.219
Yeah, yes.

1025
00:50:56.280 --> 00:50:58.019
Amy and Rory together, I think wonderful.

1026
00:50:58.079 --> 00:51:00.239
And yeah, with that comparison as well.

1027
00:51:00.300 --> 00:51:03.599
Like when the doctor and Rory are alone together, they're always

1028
00:51:03.599 --> 00:51:06.119
talking about how concerned they are about Amy and what's best for

1029
00:51:06.119 --> 00:51:06.659
Amy.

1030
00:51:06.659 --> 00:51:11.460
And Harry is constantly worried about Sarah, is she okay?

1031
00:51:11.519 --> 00:51:14.460
Like, Harry, if you call me old girl again, I'll spit.

1032
00:51:14.519 --> 00:51:15.659
Oh, well, she's fine.

1033
00:51:15.719 --> 00:51:21.059
But also when she's got the cyber plague in Revenge of the Side

1034
00:51:21.059 --> 00:51:25.019
Men, he's carrying her. like Ian Ian is doing like really

1035
00:51:25.019 --> 00:51:25.679
excellent.

1036
00:51:26.219 --> 00:51:30.420
This is as emotional as I can be as a stiff upper, um, naval

1037
00:51:30.420 --> 00:51:34.500
officer acting and getting quite distressed for that character.

1038
00:51:34.559 --> 00:51:35.400
Yeah.

1039
00:51:35.460 --> 00:51:40.980
Yeah, it's a lovely triumvirate and well, we and well, we got 24

1040
00:51:40.980 --> 00:51:41.880
episodes of it.

1041
00:51:41.940 --> 00:51:43.860
What a great...

1042
00:51:43.920 --> 00:51:47.460
You know, and it wouldn't have worked if there wasn't some writing

1043
00:51:47.460 --> 00:51:48.059
for it here.

1044
00:51:48.119 --> 00:51:49.980
Yeah, yes, for them to build on.

1045
00:51:50.039 --> 00:51:51.059
Yeah, yeah.

1046
00:51:51.119 --> 00:51:53.579
Terrence absolutely gives the template for how they relate to one

1047
00:51:53.579 --> 00:51:53.820
another.

1048
00:51:53.880 --> 00:51:56.159
All right, I think we'll stop there.

1049
00:51:56.219 --> 00:51:57.300
Yep, very good.