WEBVTT NOTE This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 09:12:21 1 00:00:33.539 --> 00:00:42.960 Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to 500 Year Diary, the only Doctor Who podcast that's just a harmless bunch of cranks, if you ask me. 2 00:00:43.020 --> 00:00:44.759 I'm Nathan. 3 00:00:44.820 --> 00:00:45.719 I'm Brendan. 4 00:00:45.780 --> 00:00:46.619 I'm Todd. 5 00:00:46.679 --> 00:00:52.500 And I'm the sweaty ends of a tandem skipping rope with a lot of barrack stories to tell for this one. 6 00:00:52.859 --> 00:00:56.759 It's the 28th of December, 1974. 7 00:00:57.299 --> 00:01:04.319 Just 6.5 months ago, the John Pertwee era came to an end and so did Terence Dix's tenure as Doctor Who. 8 00:01:04.379 --> 00:01:05.280 Script editor. 9 00:01:05.340 --> 00:01:13.260 And so tonight, 10800000 people have tuned in to see what Terence can do when he's writing a Doctor Who script on his own. 10 00:01:13.379 --> 00:01:17.099 And perhaps they're here for some other reason as well. 11 00:01:17.700 --> 00:01:21.480 In 4 weeks time, Doctor Who is going to change forever. 12 00:01:21.540 --> 00:01:27.180 Let's see how Terrence prepares us for that change as we discuss robot. 13 00:01:39.239 --> 00:01:52.140 So this, gentlemen, is the 2nd time that we've convened for this very purpose to record a podcast episode about robots, which we last did, I think, 10 years ago. 14 00:01:55.200 --> 00:01:55.859 I'm Brendan. 15 00:01:55.920 --> 00:02:01.379 I'm Nathan I'm a lovely bucket of squidgy CSO glamour, the solo Richard. 16 00:02:01.439 --> 00:02:01.680 Hello. 17 00:02:01.739 --> 00:02:04.920 And I'm back from Ketterwell hairdressers. 18 00:02:04.980 --> 00:02:06.540 One star fits all. 19 00:02:06.659 --> 00:02:08.039 And don't I look a treat? 20 00:02:11.580 --> 00:02:18.479 I think it's hilarious that, you know, we set up this season and the 4 of us have ended up on this episode. 21 00:02:19.020 --> 00:02:22.319 So everyone can really just stop here and go back. 22 00:02:22.379 --> 00:02:23.520 There's a link in the show notes. 23 00:02:23.580 --> 00:02:26.039 You could just listen to that and we'll get on with something else. 24 00:02:26.099 --> 00:02:26.639 What do you think? 25 00:02:26.699 --> 00:02:27.719 Yeah, yeah. 26 00:02:27.780 --> 00:02:31.080 Look, I'd love to discuss Donkey Kong Bonanza with you. 27 00:02:31.139 --> 00:02:32.039 I haven't played it yet. 28 00:02:32.099 --> 00:02:33.180 It is pretty good. 29 00:02:33.240 --> 00:02:34.379 Yeah, I do have opinions. 30 00:02:34.439 --> 00:02:35.460 Lots of smashing. 31 00:02:35.520 --> 00:02:36.960 Yeah, yeah, yeah. plenty of smashing. 32 00:02:37.020 --> 00:02:44.280 We have on 500-year diary often just started by talking about the production before we move on to our sort of main topic. 33 00:02:44.340 --> 00:02:50.520 So how do people feel this episode works and looks and so on? 34 00:02:50.580 --> 00:02:54.360 Last time we talks not about Terrence. 35 00:02:54.419 --> 00:03:04.439 We talked a lot about production and all the rest of it and that it feels like, you know, the end of the Pertwi era, but, you know, watching it again this week doesn't feel anything like a Pertwi story. really doesn't. 36 00:03:04.500 --> 00:03:07.139 Oh, okay, the pace is sort of the same. 37 00:03:07.199 --> 00:03:09.479 But that's just BBC at the time. 38 00:03:09.539 --> 00:03:21.060 It's simply that there's a lot of cottages and a lot of oil on the floor and a lot of grown men tripping over skipping ropes with each other as sorted out in the rehearsals. 39 00:03:21.599 --> 00:03:40.139 A lot of things that Terence didn't write, especially the physical comedy, that is the spice in this, that makes it Christmassy and puddingy, and more than we've seen, because, you know, John was so careful and constructive in how he ran the set when he was on it. 40 00:03:40.199 --> 00:03:48.599 Now we're seeing this storm in a ginger beer mug, but it doesn't feel the same. 41 00:03:48.659 --> 00:03:49.199 What you feel? 42 00:03:49.319 --> 00:03:52.080 It does have a different energy because Tom has a different energy. 43 00:03:52.139 --> 00:03:56.099 And I think too, isn't all the outside broadcast stuff on video? 44 00:03:56.159 --> 00:03:57.120 Yeah. 45 00:03:57.120 --> 00:03:58.800 So that gives it a very different feel. 46 00:03:58.860 --> 00:04:01.199 But, you know, the trappings are still there. 47 00:04:01.259 --> 00:04:06.479 I remember commenting at the time that I felt that Nick Courtney was outacted by the other regulars. 48 00:04:06.539 --> 00:04:07.680 And I think that's unfair. 49 00:04:07.740 --> 00:04:09.120 I think he's always very solid. 50 00:04:09.180 --> 00:04:12.479 He just, you know, we've just had 5 years of him acting against John. 51 00:04:12.539 --> 00:04:22.680 And I think if you look at, well, the next time he appears to igons, I think there is a really great rapport with the doctor and with the brigadier and that, I think that works really well, and I would have liked to have seen more of that. 52 00:04:22.740 --> 00:04:32.699 But here, there is that juxtaposition between how he's acted before and the energy that Tom's delivering and that sort of thing and you're suddenly uncomfortable. 53 00:04:32.759 --> 00:04:34.199 Like it's not the same as it was. 54 00:04:35.040 --> 00:05:03.420 I think that something that really distinguishes it from the other unit stories of the Pertwee era is that you will usually have some figure of authority, be it a more senior military officer, be it a government man who is somehow obstructionist, whether, you know, they're just sort of a bit like Mr. Chin in the claws of Axos and their obstructionist because it's their personality or whether they are part of the villain circle. 55 00:05:03.480 --> 00:05:06.420 But here, we kind of cut through that. 56 00:05:06.480 --> 00:05:15.540 And the only sort of comparable character we really have is Chambers, who doesn't get any lives that is killed in episode two. 57 00:05:15.600 --> 00:05:25.439 And it's amazing how quickly the plot is able to whip along when you don't have the intransigent government minister making this into a six-parter. 58 00:05:25.500 --> 00:05:26.279 Yeah. 59 00:05:26.279 --> 00:05:27.120 Yeah. 60 00:05:27.180 --> 00:05:47.639 I mean, for me, I think the real visible change is the videotape thing because that film videotape thing is so inherent to stuff of the 1970s, I was watching on Friday night, the 1980 Pride and Prejudice, which also has filmed exteriors and videotape studio stuff. 61 00:05:47.699 --> 00:05:50.100 And that's a prestige drama, I think, at the time. 62 00:05:50.160 --> 00:05:51.180 So it was normal. 63 00:05:51.240 --> 00:05:53.220 I mean, it was sort of part of the thing. 64 00:05:53.399 --> 00:05:57.899 I think that it does give a different kind of feel to it. 65 00:05:57.959 --> 00:06:08.399 And then the other feel is, you know, Tom is quoted as saying how upright pertwe is, you know, he's like a lamp, you know, like a standard lamp. 66 00:06:08.699 --> 00:06:11.279 And that sort of verticality. 67 00:06:11.339 --> 00:06:16.920 Like Tom rejects that and is just completely, like, is just frequently lying down. 68 00:06:16.980 --> 00:06:18.600 The anti-Malania. 69 00:06:18.660 --> 00:06:20.699 Don't plug him into the wall. 70 00:06:21.600 --> 00:06:35.939 And so that gives it a very different kind of feel, but I think I think that what you've identified, Brandon, as that we aren't putting artificial barriers between the doctor and the resolution of the problem. 71 00:06:36.000 --> 00:06:39.120 And I wonder whether that's Terrence Dixie. 72 00:06:39.180 --> 00:06:47.220 We'll get in there a little bit and talk about how the plot moves, but the plot does move, but it's not deliberately delayed. 73 00:06:47.279 --> 00:06:50.220 We don't lock the doctor up for episode 3 or anything. 74 00:06:50.279 --> 00:06:52.319 We just keep moving. 75 00:06:52.379 --> 00:06:54.660 And I think it's very cleverly done. 76 00:06:54.779 --> 00:06:59.639 And I think it is absolutely a Terence thing, something that in fact we saw last week. 77 00:06:59.699 --> 00:07:03.060 I think this is what Terrence had wanted for a long time. 78 00:07:03.120 --> 00:07:11.819 And I'm not just thinking the frosty protagonist, because we think back to colony in space and how Susan Jamieson was wanted and written for. 79 00:07:11.879 --> 00:07:20.339 I think this is Terence actually getting, as you said, all the controls let loose and saying, this is what I actually want to write, and it's a cracking pace. 80 00:07:20.519 --> 00:07:26.699 As you say, but really propelled by surprising characters. 81 00:07:26.759 --> 00:07:31.319 They shouldn't be too surprising because we've had versions of them for the last cough 5 years. 82 00:07:31.379 --> 00:07:34.620 But this one just feels very fresh. 83 00:07:34.680 --> 00:07:35.759 It's not just Tom. 84 00:07:35.819 --> 00:07:41.160 But he's having to juggle a new doctor and that introduction with the older characters. 85 00:07:41.220 --> 00:07:45.959 And, I mean, as we commented previously, Sarah drives a lot of this because she's investigating. 86 00:07:45.959 --> 00:08:01.500 And that gives then Tom and Ian the time to sort of bond and us to know those characters for a regeneration story, which is very different to other regeneration stories. where the doctor is incapacitated or out of his mind or whatever, here. 87 00:08:01.560 --> 00:08:07.680 He may not be involved with the action straight away, but he's up and about and doing things. 88 00:08:07.740 --> 00:08:11.100 And as I commented, and we spoke of at the time as well. 89 00:08:11.160 --> 00:08:13.800 Just the way Sarah reacts to the new doctor. 90 00:08:13.860 --> 00:08:16.680 She's observing and then building that relationship. 91 00:08:16.800 --> 00:08:21.540 At no point is she, like Clara having a breakdown, right? 92 00:08:21.600 --> 00:08:24.480 and she's our audience identification figure. 93 00:08:24.540 --> 00:08:29.160 And so you see her smile, you see her accept him, and you're going along with that as well. 94 00:08:29.220 --> 00:08:37.799 And I think that's, and I guess I'm jumping ahead here because, you know, Terence guided the last regeneration with Bob Holmes. 95 00:08:37.860 --> 00:08:40.980 And you can compare that story to this one. 96 00:08:40.980 --> 00:08:46.980 And slightly different circumstances, obviously, because we've got a regular crew here who've been with the doctor. 97 00:08:47.039 --> 00:08:52.440 Whereas last time it's basically, well, the briggy knows the doctor, but it's not a regular crew. 98 00:08:52.500 --> 00:08:53.460 They've still got to be introduced. 99 00:08:53.519 --> 00:08:56.100 So there's different dynamics happening. 100 00:08:56.159 --> 00:09:05.399 And I think it's possibly the only real regeneration story in the show where you actually have got like the brigadier and Sarah have been there for considerable amount of time. 101 00:09:05.460 --> 00:09:12.179 You look at everything else, everybody else basically has been there for like one or 2 stories, maybe a couple more. 102 00:09:12.179 --> 00:09:14.159 And I think that's significant. 103 00:09:17.220 --> 00:09:38.100 I think that sort of post-regeneration trauma is always bad, I think it's a big problem, and note that Stephen Moffat, for instance, pretty much rejects it, like there's that sort of funny line and stuff, but basically it's the doctor up and running and solving the problem. 104 00:09:38.159 --> 00:09:39.419 He doesn't have the TARDIS. 105 00:09:39.480 --> 00:09:41.460 He doesn't have his sonic screwdriver, but he's fine. 106 00:09:41.519 --> 00:09:45.360 But everyone's wanting to tune in to see the new doctor. 107 00:09:45.419 --> 00:09:49.799 So we barely see him in Spearhead from Space part one. 108 00:09:49.860 --> 00:10:00.120 And remember, he's not suffering from post-regeneration trauma because it's not really regeneration in the sense that that hasn't properly been invented yet, but he gets shot. 109 00:10:00.179 --> 00:10:00.960 Yeah. 110 00:10:01.019 --> 00:10:03.120 And so he's in hospital. 111 00:10:03.179 --> 00:10:05.759 And all the other times are just disastrous. 112 00:10:05.820 --> 00:10:12.360 I think, you know, Castra Valver, it's really boring and you don't get to see the actual doctor until he's dead now, actually. 113 00:10:12.419 --> 00:10:18.179 We don't get to see we don't get to see the doctor properly until maybe episode three. 114 00:10:18.240 --> 00:10:19.919 Well, the twin dilemma. 115 00:10:19.919 --> 00:10:20.279 Absolutely. 116 00:10:20.279 --> 00:10:22.200 Right, goodness, of training. 117 00:10:22.259 --> 00:10:30.240 And whatever we feel about time in the running, Sylvesters, doing whatever he's doing in that 1st episode. you know, these are not huge successes. 118 00:10:30.299 --> 00:10:35.519 And I think the biggest 2 successors are spared from space and this in particular. 119 00:10:35.940 --> 00:10:46.379 And Terrence does say about the whole thing of not doing Spearhead from Space again, he said, we did a story where people are suspicious of the doctor because they didn't see it happen. 120 00:10:46.440 --> 00:10:49.259 So in consultation with Robert Sloman. 121 00:10:49.320 --> 00:10:55.139 Right, for this regeneration scene, Sarah and the brigadier watch it happen. don't have another episode of that. 122 00:10:55.200 --> 00:10:59.100 We've had the doctor unconscious and getting x-rays and 2 hearts. 123 00:10:59.159 --> 00:11:00.480 Okay, we've done that. 124 00:11:00.600 --> 00:11:02.159 How else do we find out he's got 2 halves? 125 00:11:02.220 --> 00:11:03.240 Someone listens to them. 126 00:11:03.299 --> 00:11:04.200 You know. 127 00:11:04.259 --> 00:11:13.259 So it's kind of interesting how Terence as a writer went. sort of have to hit the same beats, but let's do a 180 on them. and go in the other direction with them. 128 00:11:13.320 --> 00:11:17.279 I love when Tom discovers that the Tartar's keys in his boots, though. 129 00:11:17.340 --> 00:11:19.860 I think that's just tremendous, of course. 130 00:11:19.919 --> 00:11:21.779 It was a great callback, wasn't it? 131 00:11:22.559 --> 00:11:25.799 There's lots of little aha moments. 132 00:11:25.860 --> 00:11:30.659 It's the most exciting regeneration we've seen up to date. possibly of the classic era. 133 00:11:30.779 --> 00:11:32.399 He's so great. 134 00:11:32.460 --> 00:11:33.960 Like, it's so ridiculous. 135 00:11:34.019 --> 00:11:42.240 Like, you know, like, we've all known Tom as the doctor since, like, I've known him as the doctor since 1978. 75 for me. 136 00:11:42.299 --> 00:11:43.320 Yeah, forever. 137 00:11:43.379 --> 00:11:57.059 But also, and Todd just said it, it would not have had those sparks, and this is no offence to Nick Courtney or any of the regular cast, but Ian Marty is a really nice point across the fulcrum with him. 138 00:11:57.120 --> 00:12:01.019 It's the same kind of energy in that and they're competitive. 139 00:12:01.139 --> 00:12:02.580 It's so weird. 140 00:12:02.580 --> 00:12:04.139 You can see instantly their mates. 141 00:12:04.200 --> 00:12:06.960 Instantly, they're out clevering each other. 142 00:12:07.019 --> 00:12:08.759 You can really see it. 143 00:12:08.879 --> 00:12:21.179 It's like, oh, this is the right kind of boyish competition. and what I wanted to see Just that interaction over whether it's called the infirmary or Sick Bay, which I just think is so funny. 144 00:12:21.299 --> 00:12:22.379 It kind of comes from nowhere. 145 00:12:22.500 --> 00:12:25.799 That is also played in rehearsals. 146 00:12:25.860 --> 00:12:28.860 So again, the sparks and wit. 147 00:12:28.919 --> 00:12:30.480 All of them, yeah. 148 00:12:30.539 --> 00:12:31.799 Yeah, I think you're right. 149 00:12:31.860 --> 00:12:36.840 I think we underestimate how important Ian is to that scene, which is brilliant. 150 00:12:36.960 --> 00:12:39.480 I mean, that's when that doctor lands, isn't it, in that scene? 151 00:12:39.539 --> 00:12:41.519 That's where we sort of properly see him. 152 00:12:41.580 --> 00:12:46.259 And he's instantly brilliant and it's because he ends there, to some degree. 153 00:12:46.320 --> 00:12:58.500 Yeah, on the DVD commentary, Terence is actually quite funny about that because that whole thing of you may be a doctor, but I'm the doctor, et cetera, the infirmary, the Sick Bay, was entirely, as you say, Richard worked out in rehearsal. 154 00:12:58.559 --> 00:13:01.919 And so Terence is on the commentary saying, now, Tom, I didn't write this bit. 155 00:13:01.980 --> 00:13:08.039 It came in and mucked about, you know, it's everyone's laughing, of course, because he's not precious. 156 00:13:08.100 --> 00:13:19.379 But the springboard is the brontosaurus line, which allows the actors to diss each other that would not have come about, had Terence not planted? 157 00:13:19.440 --> 00:13:22.860 And I feel that Terrence is the little pottage gardener in this one. 158 00:13:22.919 --> 00:13:29.700 He's just planting little seedlings around and then letting the actors fly, which is what a really good writer does and what an excellent showrunner does. 159 00:13:29.759 --> 00:13:31.200 And we didn't have that word then, did we? 160 00:13:31.259 --> 00:13:34.740 Maybe Terrence really was the show on a title. 161 00:13:34.799 --> 00:13:36.299 Don't think it was Barry Letts at this stage. 162 00:13:36.360 --> 00:13:37.620 Well, I mean, this is the thing. 163 00:13:37.679 --> 00:13:39.960 Like we discussed this last week in war games. 164 00:13:40.019 --> 00:13:42.240 Terrence is there before Barry Letts. 165 00:13:42.299 --> 00:13:50.580 He writes the last trout and sets everything up and then he guides the entire poetry era through with a stable of writers that he's working with. 166 00:13:50.639 --> 00:13:56.340 Would it be Don Horton, Malcolm Hulk, Robert Holmes, Bob Baker, and Dave Martin. 167 00:13:56.340 --> 00:14:05.700 And some of them he lets fly more than others, others he has to craft, but he is a craftsman who is every week delivering stories that do not fail, that are entertaining. 168 00:14:05.759 --> 00:14:10.440 And then he bookends his entire era by writing the 1st story of the next doctor. 169 00:14:10.500 --> 00:14:16.440 He doesn't write, officially write any per tweets, but it's Troughton, Baker, and that's his booking. 170 00:14:16.500 --> 00:14:17.159 Yeah, yeah. 171 00:14:17.220 --> 00:14:18.120 Is there a plan there? 172 00:14:18.240 --> 00:14:23.039 I mean, he is really, really incredible and that era, as we said last time. 173 00:14:23.159 --> 00:14:25.799 Like, a lot of people, it's not their favourite era. 174 00:14:25.860 --> 00:14:27.899 It's Peter's favourite era. 175 00:14:27.960 --> 00:14:33.120 He loves it. and it's a thing where the floor is raised, I think. 176 00:14:33.179 --> 00:14:35.700 It's just consistently good. 177 00:14:35.759 --> 00:14:41.820 It never fails in the way that some Troutons fail and some Tom Baker stories kind of fail. 178 00:14:41.879 --> 00:14:49.200 I don't think it ever really quite fails, and it's just so genuinely enjoyable and just so well done. 179 00:14:58.259 --> 00:15:00.299 Back to what you were saying about Showrunner. 180 00:15:00.360 --> 00:15:03.539 Like, you know, we talk about showrunners now. 181 00:15:03.600 --> 00:15:07.620 They're like the head writer and we don't talk about any really of the other producers. 182 00:15:07.679 --> 00:15:09.120 Going back to this. 183 00:15:09.179 --> 00:15:13.919 You know, you've got Barry Letz's producer for the Pertwee era, and then Terrence Sticks. 184 00:15:14.039 --> 00:15:19.559 And you know, Barry is pushing the boundaries in terms of direction and special effects and all that sort of stuff. 185 00:15:19.620 --> 00:15:23.340 But you can't do anything if you don't have the stories, right? 186 00:15:23.399 --> 00:15:25.620 You can't do the casting if you don't have the characters. 187 00:15:25.679 --> 00:15:27.659 And this is all coming from Terrence. 188 00:15:27.720 --> 00:15:31.740 And I think that he is an unsung hero of crafting the show. 189 00:15:31.799 --> 00:15:33.960 And I think he recognises when things need to change. 190 00:15:34.019 --> 00:15:37.080 He recognised, you know, we need to do something in season 8. 191 00:15:37.139 --> 00:15:40.259 Again, Bob Holmes, soft reboot. you know, the master's introduced. 192 00:15:40.320 --> 00:15:42.480 He's taken that from the war games. 193 00:15:42.539 --> 00:15:45.419 Again, you know, for season 10. to get the doctor back into space. 194 00:15:45.480 --> 00:15:47.340 There are all these beats along the way. 195 00:15:47.399 --> 00:15:51.360 And it wouldn't happen without him recognising these things. 196 00:15:51.840 --> 00:16:11.340 When I was reading up on the development of this script, and the whole whirlwind casting of Tom Baker, like it was literally like Hingcliffe lets, Dix and Holmes were all interviewing actors, and we mentioned before in our previous episode, Richard Hurd, Ron Moody, Graham Crowden was in the mix, but didn't want to commit to a long-running series, et cetera. 197 00:16:11.399 --> 00:16:19.259 And Bill Slater, head of serials, gets a letter from an actor he worked with previously, Tom Baker saying, hey, I don't have any work. 198 00:16:19.320 --> 00:16:20.220 Could you consider any work? 199 00:16:20.279 --> 00:16:24.000 And Bill Slater said, Barry, Tom's in this movie called The Golden Voyage of Sinbad. 200 00:16:24.059 --> 00:16:25.320 Cinema now, go see it. 201 00:16:25.379 --> 00:16:26.039 They went to see it. 202 00:16:26.100 --> 00:16:32.879 Two days later they had Tom Baker in, and chatting with him over lunch and things, and offered him the part on the day. 203 00:16:32.940 --> 00:16:52.919 So Terrence was able to write the script after having several meetings with Tom Baker, and write precisely for his strengths, and with that sort of lugubriousness in laying around, that is specified in Terence's scripts, precisely for the reason you say, Nathan, of providing an immediate contrast to Pertwe. 204 00:16:52.980 --> 00:17:04.559 Just watching it this time, I really, really wanted to know how that landed at the time, like how did people react to this incredible change? 205 00:17:04.619 --> 00:17:11.759 Because we've always known that Tom was the doctor, but I wonder what it would have been like experiencing that firsthand. 206 00:17:11.759 --> 00:17:26.819 Because Pertwe had been there for 5 years longer than anyone else, and kind of long enough for the memory of Trout, and I think, to kind of fade a bit, particularly since his final season had fallen off the radar, I think, a little bit. 207 00:17:26.880 --> 00:17:36.240 So Pertwee was the doctor in the same way that we experience when Tom left, you know, had there really ever been another doctor, it's hard even to imagine. 208 00:17:36.299 --> 00:17:41.759 So I just really, really wanted to know what that had been like and what the reception was. 209 00:17:41.819 --> 00:17:45.720 See, I was only 2.5 the time, so I can't really remember it. 210 00:17:46.079 --> 00:18:01.799 But, but, you know, for those kids that came in with John, like in the 2nd series where he did take off, like the living memory, how, you know, you've got those that are older that came in, obviously, with heart and all, but there's a whole heap of new viewers with Birchway. 211 00:18:01.859 --> 00:18:04.500 So they would never have experienced a regenerational really remember it. 212 00:18:04.740 --> 00:18:10.859 So, yeah, so it's like we were saying, what would have been like at their time for this change? 213 00:18:10.920 --> 00:18:14.700 And I think it's incredible when you do look at those ratings that it doesn't fall away. 214 00:18:15.539 --> 00:18:15.960 Right? 215 00:18:16.079 --> 00:18:19.259 Momentum builds throughout this season and it is an instant hit. 216 00:18:19.319 --> 00:18:20.400 It was shocking. 217 00:18:20.460 --> 00:18:21.539 How old was I? 218 00:18:21.599 --> 00:18:22.500 Seven. eight. 219 00:18:22.559 --> 00:18:28.559 The 1st one I remember watching live broadcast all the way through avidly and telling older people to be quiet. 220 00:18:28.740 --> 00:18:31.619 Stop banging about was Planet of the Spiders. 221 00:18:31.680 --> 00:18:32.339 Right, okay. 222 00:18:32.339 --> 00:18:35.579 The texture and the coldness of it is still in my head. 223 00:18:35.640 --> 00:18:39.000 It's extraordinary, like terror of the zigons is too. you just feel the cold. 224 00:18:39.119 --> 00:18:41.819 This was a proper rattle. 225 00:18:41.880 --> 00:18:51.000 Did the Doctor Who and giant robot book of which dear Brendan is holding up the very 1st edition with Tom on the cover. 226 00:18:51.059 --> 00:18:52.079 Did that come out before? 227 00:18:52.140 --> 00:18:55.920 I think we had that broadcast in Australia because there was a bit of a wait, wasn't there? 228 00:18:55.980 --> 00:18:57.599 I think, yes, you're right. 229 00:18:57.660 --> 00:19:02.220 It came out before it was broadcasting Australia because it only came out about 4 months after broadcasting the UK. 230 00:19:02.339 --> 00:19:07.259 That's right And I believe this was also around the time that the ABC were considering dropping the series. 231 00:19:07.319 --> 00:19:08.039 Right. 232 00:19:08.039 --> 00:19:14.039 Because, remember, the Doctor Club of Australia basically started because several people... 233 00:19:14.039 --> 00:19:16.619 So Henry Bland, I think, was the one. who was pushing it. 234 00:19:16.680 --> 00:19:19.740 And yes, we were totally naughty. 235 00:19:19.740 --> 00:19:20.819 We must stoppage months, yes. 236 00:19:20.880 --> 00:19:31.259 And, you know, several people we have known for many years through Doctor Club of Australia, Dallas Jones, Anthony Howe, Carrie Doty, many other people, arranged a protest, and there are photographs. 237 00:19:31.319 --> 00:19:32.400 I don't know where we could find them. 238 00:19:32.460 --> 00:19:34.500 There are photographs of the Taking of Daleks. 239 00:19:35.579 --> 00:19:36.059 Yes, yes. 240 00:19:36.119 --> 00:19:37.799 Two ABC headquarters. 241 00:19:37.859 --> 00:19:39.539 You cannot cancel Doctor Who. 242 00:19:39.599 --> 00:19:40.140 That's right. 243 00:19:40.200 --> 00:19:40.920 It was actually very close. 244 00:19:40.980 --> 00:19:44.400 And of course, public sentiment was, no, don't cancel this. 245 00:19:44.460 --> 00:19:46.079 Yeah, we were very different then. 246 00:19:46.140 --> 00:19:50.460 I remember seeing that book with the face on it and being very confused. 247 00:19:50.519 --> 00:19:51.240 So yes. 248 00:19:51.299 --> 00:19:52.079 Okay. 249 00:19:52.140 --> 00:19:54.000 Yeah, because it is funny. 250 00:19:54.059 --> 00:20:02.519 For those of you who haven't seen the cover before, you do have the robot batting away fighter planes, which does happen in the novelisation, it doesn't happen in TV, but it doesn't. 251 00:20:02.579 --> 00:20:06.900 And a little circle box out of Sarah in the robot's hand. 252 00:20:06.960 --> 00:20:16.799 But then in the Doctor Who logo, you have Tom Baker's face over the top of the O, which seems almost to have been added because someone said, shouldn't Tom Baker's face be... 253 00:20:16.859 --> 00:20:18.720 Probably was and it's great. 254 00:20:18.779 --> 00:20:21.599 Sarah looks more realistic on the front cover of this book. 255 00:20:21.599 --> 00:20:23.460 The robot's head. 256 00:20:23.460 --> 00:20:26.700 She does when she's taken to the top of the building. 257 00:20:26.759 --> 00:20:30.599 How close is this novelisation to the on-screen? 258 00:20:30.660 --> 00:20:31.680 It's pretty close. 259 00:20:31.740 --> 00:20:39.900 It adds in a few lines that were cut out of the script and usually they're just things like people kind of restating or emphasising. 260 00:20:39.960 --> 00:20:44.220 But there is one particular bit I really like, which I'll just read out. 261 00:20:44.279 --> 00:20:49.079 So this is just a slight difference and it's not in the original script because I've got the scriptbook here as well. 262 00:20:49.140 --> 00:20:52.920 This is a slight difference to Sarah's motivation for wanting to go to think tank in the 1st place. 263 00:20:53.039 --> 00:21:20.460 You see, I'm very keen to get away from all this women's angle stuff, and if I could just come up with a really good scientific story, and I found that so interesting because it just gives Sarah a bit more motivation, and actually, it's kind of a bit more subtly feminist than Terrence can be sometimes because it's Sarah kind of going, I'm not being taken seriously, because I'm a woman, and what I really want is something interesting and consequential. 264 00:21:20.519 --> 00:21:23.279 The hat and the lapels did not help. 265 00:21:25.200 --> 00:21:27.779 Which is what Liz says on the comic. 266 00:21:27.839 --> 00:21:30.299 But she looks great in those Bieber boots. 267 00:21:30.420 --> 00:21:33.599 Yeah, it really looks like she's cosplaying Paddington bed drag. 268 00:21:33.839 --> 00:21:35.940 She does say at one point. 269 00:21:36.000 --> 00:21:39.180 Now, you see, I didn't like it when Jim put me in skirts. 270 00:21:39.240 --> 00:21:41.640 Not to have anything against skirts, but I don't like having to wear tights. 271 00:21:41.700 --> 00:21:44.880 And then Tom sounds like, oh, Liz, you never told me this. 272 00:21:45.660 --> 00:21:49.259 I shall tell the Americans they shall enjoy. sure they will. 273 00:21:49.500 --> 00:21:51.539 I'm wearing them now. 274 00:21:52.680 --> 00:21:57.660 It was bittersweet listening to the commentary this week because it's cruel, isn't it? 275 00:21:57.720 --> 00:22:01.079 It's Tom, Liz, Barry and Terence. 276 00:22:01.140 --> 00:22:04.980 And then I did behind the sofa where Tom's sitting there with Sadie. 277 00:22:04.980 --> 00:22:07.980 And Tom's still bright and alert and passionate. 278 00:22:08.039 --> 00:22:09.779 Yeah, this time about 10 years ago. 279 00:22:09.839 --> 00:22:12.180 And Philip Hinchcliffe as well. 280 00:22:12.240 --> 00:22:21.000 And both Tom and Philip are kind of referring to, oh, people who aren't with us anymore, and they kind of stop themselves specifically referring to Liz because Sadie's right there. 281 00:22:21.059 --> 00:22:23.640 But Sadie's in saying things like, oh, yeah, yeah. 282 00:22:23.700 --> 00:22:26.940 Well, before Mum passed, we actually sat down and watched stuff and yeah. 283 00:22:27.000 --> 00:23:04.740 And but it's just this strange thing, you know, it exists in 1975 for you, Richard, and it exists a few years later for you and Todd. exists in the 1980s for me and it exists in 2007 when the commentary was recorded and it exists in 2017 when behind the sofa was done, you know, and all these, all these reactions to one writers work and they obliquely refer to it in the commentaries as well, where Tom and Terence both talk about how kids who grew up watching Doctor Who and reading Doctor Who, and learn to read from Terence Dix, are hiring them now. 284 00:23:04.799 --> 00:23:06.119 Yeah, yeah. 285 00:23:06.180 --> 00:23:08.220 And that was 10 years ago. 286 00:23:08.279 --> 00:23:12.180 Is it Terence's best as a conglomerate? 287 00:23:12.299 --> 00:23:14.339 I know horror of Fang Rock is way up there. 288 00:23:14.400 --> 00:23:24.180 But is it the best as a working model, functional script, then to screen, the most Teflon coated, efficient, the best story? 289 00:23:24.240 --> 00:23:25.740 Is it the best thing he's done? 290 00:23:25.859 --> 00:23:27.539 I don't think so. 291 00:23:27.599 --> 00:23:30.900 I do think horror fang rock is better. 292 00:23:30.960 --> 00:23:47.460 And I think part of it is because it has an odd place in Doctor Who's history because Hingecliffe is about to launch Doctor Who back into space and the doctor is about to outgrow and next year he will sort of explicitly outgrow unit as an idea. 293 00:23:47.519 --> 00:24:07.140 So at the end of this episode, we have that glorious scene that we talked about on FTE, where the doctor and Sarah introduce Harry to the Tartars, and then they go off into space to have, you know, incredible adventures and adventures that are a bit unlike any kinds of adventures that the doctor had ever had before. 294 00:24:07.259 --> 00:24:12.059 And so before we go off there, we do something very, very earthbound. 295 00:24:12.119 --> 00:24:15.420 There are no alien elements here apart from the doctor. 296 00:24:15.480 --> 00:24:21.539 So it's an unusual story, I think, for that reason and it's an atypical one. 297 00:24:21.599 --> 00:24:32.400 But I think it does an incredibly good job of having something to do every week and of developing the story. 298 00:24:32.460 --> 00:24:37.500 And I think what it is is that the villains have a plan that's not already in place. 299 00:24:37.619 --> 00:24:48.839 We watch the plan develop and we see the various stages and then we watch the doctor and the brigadier in particular, tracking that development. 300 00:24:48.900 --> 00:24:59.039 And so, you know, it starts off with the robberies and, and then it's the assassination of chambers, and then we move to the bunker. 301 00:24:59.099 --> 00:25:06.000 You know, we have the SRS meeting, and then we move to the bunker and stuff, and these new elements are constantly being introduced. 302 00:25:06.059 --> 00:25:13.980 And they're introduced at such a pace that the doctor and the brigadier never look stupid for not knowing what's going on. 303 00:25:14.039 --> 00:25:17.400 They're not outwitted or beaten the entire way. 304 00:25:17.519 --> 00:25:23.700 They're getting closer and closer to this developing situation and tracking along behind it. 305 00:25:23.759 --> 00:25:27.539 Sarah has given a big role in the reveal of the SRS, for instance. 306 00:25:27.599 --> 00:25:38.160 And that just means that something is always happening and the story is always changing and developing and we never get time to get bored with the status quo. 307 00:25:38.220 --> 00:25:48.900 And I think those 6 part pertise that had things like an intransigent base commander or whatever, to keep us kind of running in place for a few episodes. 308 00:25:49.079 --> 00:25:52.740 They were a production necessity, I think. 309 00:25:52.799 --> 00:26:07.200 But Terrence shows you how to do it, how to actually have a plot that is propulsive and developing all the way through without making anyone look stupid without artificially slowing things down and just keeping everything going. 310 00:26:07.319 --> 00:26:09.420 I agree with you on this. 311 00:26:09.480 --> 00:26:12.900 Like it's a masterclass in showing how future script editors. 312 00:26:12.960 --> 00:26:16.680 No, Eric, say it, how to actually write Doctor Who. 313 00:26:16.740 --> 00:26:17.640 That is successful. 314 00:26:17.759 --> 00:26:21.000 You do not have to keep people in a cell for a whole episode. 315 00:26:21.059 --> 00:26:29.819 You can, if you are talented, come up with these things, and Terrence is showing that, and he has mentored Bob Holmes, right? 316 00:26:29.880 --> 00:26:39.240 Who was already talented anyway, But, I mean, honestly, if Bob Holmes was just judged on the crotons and the space pirates and did nothing else, you'd be thinking, was this man actually that talented? 317 00:26:39.299 --> 00:26:51.119 And then you see his development through Terence in the Perto era to now that he's script editor and is going to write some of the, and it's probably already written some of the best shows in Doctor Who. 318 00:26:51.180 --> 00:26:55.019 Terrence knows how to write this stuff and he's giving a masterclass on it. 319 00:26:55.079 --> 00:26:56.759 He said, is this his best script? 320 00:26:56.819 --> 00:26:58.200 Maybe from that point of view it is. 321 00:26:58.259 --> 00:26:58.980 Right? 322 00:26:59.039 --> 00:27:00.359 Cracking and for pace. 323 00:27:00.420 --> 00:27:01.380 I love what you just said. 324 00:27:01.440 --> 00:27:04.380 Terrence taught Bob structure. 325 00:27:04.440 --> 00:27:08.700 And Bob, I think, gave Terence permission for the dark moments of which. 326 00:27:08.759 --> 00:27:10.140 Bob was allowed. 327 00:27:10.200 --> 00:27:21.660 He goes so dark, you know, so Henry Bland would have actually had some purpose to cancel in the show if we'd had Bob just doing Terrence's job and not and the other way around. 328 00:27:21.720 --> 00:27:26.880 We saw how heavily naughty Bob would get. 329 00:27:26.880 --> 00:27:36.480 Terrence always leavened it and understood that he was riding principally for young audiences and that we will take on a lot of bright new ideas. 330 00:27:36.539 --> 00:27:40.259 Don't throw us into the compost machine. 331 00:27:40.319 --> 00:27:51.839 I think that all 4 of us at some point decided during FTE's original series 12 run that sometimes this got very dark almost immediately. 332 00:27:51.900 --> 00:27:54.900 Terence, you know, hands over to Bob completely. 333 00:27:54.960 --> 00:27:56.579 And I think... 334 00:27:56.880 --> 00:27:59.400 I still deeply dislike Brain of Morbius. 335 00:27:59.460 --> 00:28:02.160 I really I find it unenjoyable. 336 00:28:02.220 --> 00:28:02.940 Right. 337 00:28:03.000 --> 00:28:04.440 Yeah. very bleak. 338 00:28:04.500 --> 00:28:10.500 And yeah, I think Terrence's criticism of the reworked script is removing the robot removes the heart. 339 00:28:10.559 --> 00:28:16.619 And that's what he plays with here, that the robot is so empathetic and so human. 340 00:28:16.619 --> 00:28:27.960 And listening to our old episode, Nathan, you raise some very interesting points about, well, hold on, why is Kettle well surprised that this is happening and why is Kettle well the only person who can adjust the robot if we see Jellicoe doing it? 341 00:28:30.299 --> 00:28:37.140 And in the novelisation, they go some way to explaining that whereby the sort of prime directive is a chip. 342 00:28:37.200 --> 00:28:40.259 It's an inhibitor chip that Jellicoe is able to remove. 343 00:28:40.380 --> 00:28:43.980 But it is then a conscience that the robot develops. 344 00:28:44.039 --> 00:28:44.700 Right. 345 00:28:44.700 --> 00:28:48.960 So in a way, the robot doesn't need the prime directory. roots around the tube. 346 00:28:49.019 --> 00:28:54.059 Yeah, yeah. to come to conclusion, but murder is wrong, but there is nothing stopping me from following that order. 347 00:28:54.119 --> 00:28:55.859 So what am I doing? 348 00:28:55.920 --> 00:28:58.380 So I think Terrence kind of agrees with you. 349 00:28:58.440 --> 00:29:01.740 And that's something I find when I read his target novelisations of his own stuff. 350 00:29:02.339 --> 00:29:07.740 He will actually try and go more into motivation than you can do on screen. 351 00:29:07.859 --> 00:29:10.319 And as a writer. 352 00:29:10.380 --> 00:29:16.319 It's often hard to critique your own work in that way, but Terrence seems to be able to put on the hat off. 353 00:29:16.380 --> 00:29:17.819 No, no, no, I'm the editor now. 354 00:29:17.819 --> 00:29:21.000 And possibly because he was such a good script editor, he can do that. 355 00:29:21.059 --> 00:29:28.619 I also think horror fang rock is probably his best script, but this is certainly an apotheosis of everything he's been doing for the last 6 years. 356 00:29:28.680 --> 00:29:34.319 You know, I don't know if he knew he was coming back to do Brain of Morbius next year. 357 00:29:34.380 --> 00:29:40.019 This feels like he's going, this is my swan song. in a way. 358 00:29:40.079 --> 00:29:55.559 This is everything I've learned. and this is then setting Bob up because even with the eccentricity he wrote Tom with, it was always with the purpose of next week, if you want to write him more seriously, you can put in a line that he settled down after his regeneration. 359 00:29:55.619 --> 00:30:02.279 So Terence is sort of setting up a halfway template between what was and what could be. so anyone can spring off from it. 360 00:30:11.339 --> 00:30:14.279 How many novelisations have you done at this point? 361 00:30:14.339 --> 00:30:19.079 I'm sorry, my memory escapes me as to when the novelisations took off. 362 00:30:19.200 --> 00:30:27.599 So he doesn't start writing target novelisations until he's right at the very end, if not already, completely finished his runner's script, then it are. 363 00:30:27.660 --> 00:30:47.039 So it's after this point that suddenly he begins to churn them all out for them and gives us in this room and other people of similar ilk, the access to all these wonderful stories and adventures in our minds and is putting out the history of Doctor Who, when we could not record it, could not see it, could not do any of that. 364 00:30:47.160 --> 00:30:50.700 And he manages to do all these wonderful normalisations, adding extra things. 365 00:30:50.759 --> 00:30:55.140 Keep to a word limit, and yet allow you to have these wonderful adventures. 366 00:30:55.200 --> 00:30:56.519 Like, you know, this is his other bow. 367 00:30:56.579 --> 00:30:58.259 He's magnificent too. 368 00:30:58.319 --> 00:30:59.460 He's properly good. 369 00:30:59.519 --> 00:31:05.220 And we, I think, you know, he is properly appreciated for what he did because he did like 70 of them. 370 00:31:05.279 --> 00:31:06.720 He did a massive number. 371 00:31:06.839 --> 00:31:17.819 And he is just so economical and so skilled, and he does the pace thing, which is what he does here. 372 00:31:17.880 --> 00:31:21.119 In the novelisations, he manages to keep the pace up as well. 373 00:31:21.180 --> 00:31:30.480 And there were plenty of Pertui stories that we encountered, at least I did as novelisations long before I ever saw them. 374 00:31:30.599 --> 00:31:34.079 And they were much pacier in a written format, weren't they, Nathan? 375 00:31:34.500 --> 00:31:51.299 Yeah, I mean, terror of the autons in particular is one where I remember just being kind of horrifically disappointed by how it ends up looking at the end of episode 4 and how much more fun my imagined version looked. especially my kitchen. 376 00:31:52.920 --> 00:31:54.539 That's right. 377 00:31:54.599 --> 00:31:56.940 The novelisation had a much more convincing kitchen. 378 00:31:58.619 --> 00:32:02.759 Even just the way he structures the novelisations. 379 00:32:02.819 --> 00:32:04.619 Most of them are 12 chapters. 380 00:32:04.680 --> 00:32:11.039 So he can either do an episode every 3 chapters, or if it's a 6 parter, an episode every 2 chapters. 381 00:32:11.099 --> 00:32:14.519 And even reading the giant robot. 382 00:32:14.579 --> 00:32:35.099 The cliffhangers don't necessarily fall at the end of a chapter, the way he's written them because I think, so for the 1st cliffhanger, the moment he makes bigger is, and Miss Winter's telling the robot to destroy Sarah, becomes the chapter ending, but the robot advancing on Sarah is still given its due. essentially. 383 00:32:35.160 --> 00:32:38.460 But that, again, just comes down to pace. 384 00:32:38.519 --> 00:32:41.640 He's like, okay, quarter of the story on TV, a quarter of the book. 385 00:32:41.700 --> 00:32:42.779 Yeah, yeah. 386 00:32:42.839 --> 00:32:46.740 I always think it's beautiful, the relationship the robot has with Sarah. 387 00:32:46.799 --> 00:32:48.299 I don't know why. 388 00:32:49.019 --> 00:33:03.180 We talked about it last time in FDE, just how genuinely upset she is at the end at its death and how kind and empathetic Tom is towards that, how he tries to cheer her up. 389 00:33:03.240 --> 00:33:10.380 And in a way, ushering her on board the TARDIS for another adventure is kind of his way of taking her mind off it. 390 00:33:10.440 --> 00:33:12.119 I think it's lovely. 391 00:33:12.180 --> 00:33:14.519 I love this novelisation. 392 00:33:14.579 --> 00:33:15.240 I keep looking at it. 393 00:33:15.299 --> 00:33:15.539 People. 394 00:33:15.599 --> 00:33:17.220 Dr. and the giant robot. 395 00:33:17.279 --> 00:33:18.240 I want that on screen. 396 00:33:18.299 --> 00:33:20.279 No, and the giant robot. 397 00:33:20.339 --> 00:33:21.299 This is what I thought. 398 00:33:21.299 --> 00:33:22.920 I mean, obviously it gives it away. 399 00:33:22.980 --> 00:33:25.740 But it's interesting how you said, like, there are no aliens in this. 400 00:33:25.799 --> 00:33:28.380 This is all earth battle. and that doesn't happen a lot. 401 00:33:28.440 --> 00:33:31.680 I mean, you might go back to, I mean, invasion of the dinosaurs. 402 00:33:31.740 --> 00:33:34.140 It not. necessarily aliens Inferno. 403 00:33:34.200 --> 00:33:41.519 But there's very few in the pertuie era leading up to this that Terrence has had a hand in where there's not some sort of alien or alien planet or whatever. 404 00:33:41.579 --> 00:33:43.079 This is quite unique. 405 00:33:43.200 --> 00:33:43.920 Yeah. 406 00:33:43.980 --> 00:33:45.599 No, it's the mad scientist thing. 407 00:33:45.660 --> 00:33:49.200 Remember, you know, it was like it's either an alien invasion or a mad scientist. 408 00:33:49.259 --> 00:33:56.400 Turns out we don't do that many mad scientists in the Pertuy era, but we kind of obviously do here. 409 00:33:56.460 --> 00:34:00.240 And I think it's a sort of very solid mad scientist story. 410 00:34:00.299 --> 00:34:05.640 But even the mad scientist is a hugely sympathetic character. 411 00:34:05.700 --> 00:34:09.420 And something that occurred to me this time that has never occurred to me before. 412 00:34:09.480 --> 00:34:16.860 Terrence has never said this in any interviews or any production notes or anything, but you've got the doctor who's a bit of a mad scientist. 413 00:34:16.920 --> 00:34:25.980 You've got Sarah, who is a strong woman in a man's world, and you have Harry, who's sort of the backup and a bit dim, but we like him. 414 00:34:26.039 --> 00:34:34.800 On the other side, you've got Professor Kettlewell, who is a mad scientist who wants to who wants to develop alternative technologies and safe energy and what have you. 415 00:34:34.860 --> 00:34:38.400 You've got Miss Winters, who is a strong, independent woman in a man's world. 416 00:34:38.460 --> 00:34:42.719 And you've got Jellicoe, who's a bit silly, but they keep him around because he's useful. 417 00:34:42.780 --> 00:34:49.019 And I wonder if Terrence consciously set up that sort of mirror between those characters. 418 00:34:49.079 --> 00:35:02.699 And even if he did, it's not obvious, but Sarah and Miss Winters and the doctor and Kettlewell both get really good scenes together where they discuss the plot and they discuss the themes and the ideas. 419 00:35:02.760 --> 00:35:19.019 I always get quite emotional when Sarah is 1st talking about how the robot has feelings and I think that's a testament to Liz's acting, but Terrence is also interested in exploring the humanity of the monster he's created. 420 00:35:19.079 --> 00:35:25.139 And I think that's what elevates it above being a King Kong pastiche because, of course, Kong couldn't talk. 421 00:35:25.199 --> 00:35:26.280 Yeah, yeah. 422 00:35:26.340 --> 00:35:48.239 And so by giving the robot the ability to talk and reason and think, and also the fact that Michael Kilgareff, as well as being a monster actor, is an actor who, while giving an emotionless voice can give an emotional performance, is really impressive, and there's a funny bit from Barry Letts, where he says, we cast Michael Kilgareff because he's half an inch taller than Stephen Thorne. 423 00:35:49.320 --> 00:35:53.039 He's not super shabby. robotic, is he? 424 00:35:53.099 --> 00:35:54.539 It is a really good performance. 425 00:35:54.599 --> 00:36:01.980 The thing that struck me this time is the sound that accompanies the robot, like not just the incredible work that Dudley does. 426 00:36:02.039 --> 00:36:03.960 But there's that sort of screaming noise. 427 00:36:04.079 --> 00:36:07.679 You know that noise when he sort of comes into shot at the beginning? 428 00:36:07.739 --> 00:36:18.719 It's like there's this very loud kind of, it is a digetic sound, like you're supposed to imagine that the robot makes this noise, but it's, it's really striking. 429 00:36:18.780 --> 00:36:21.539 I think, you know, like, I think the costume's ridiculous. 430 00:36:21.659 --> 00:36:22.800 Like, absolutely. 431 00:36:22.860 --> 00:36:23.039 Really? 432 00:36:23.039 --> 00:36:25.679 I love that it's the night in shining eye. 433 00:36:25.739 --> 00:36:32.400 It has such throwbacks to heroic crusade and Errol Flynn films and all the rest of it. 434 00:36:32.519 --> 00:36:36.360 I do want to know if positronic circuits are magenta Christmas pink. 435 00:36:38.699 --> 00:36:40.980 Stompy, stompy feet. 436 00:36:42.420 --> 00:36:45.840 It's the midriff with a cloth, you know, right? 437 00:36:46.199 --> 00:36:48.300 It's ridiculous. 438 00:36:48.420 --> 00:36:50.340 All the fashion for 19 cents. 439 00:36:51.000 --> 00:37:03.780 The other thing, too, that strikes me here, and I don't know whether John does it is how smart Tom is. and how quick he is at working out what the plot must be. 440 00:37:03.840 --> 00:37:07.920 So he works out that there's some kind of weapon for the plot to work. 441 00:37:07.980 --> 00:37:19.199 He kind of works out that the codes, like the thing that they're getting from from the safe has to be, you know, he works out what it has to be before we're told. 442 00:37:19.260 --> 00:37:34.139 You know, Sarah finishes his sentence about it must be some kind of giant robot, you know, and she walks in and finishes his sentence and he's the one who works out and doesn't tell anyone that Kettlewell is in on the plot. 443 00:37:34.199 --> 00:37:38.519 And I think he doesn't tell anyone because it doesn't occur to him that everyone else won't have worked it out as well. 444 00:37:38.579 --> 00:37:40.260 That's a nice point actually. 445 00:37:40.320 --> 00:37:42.059 Yeah, not withholding. 446 00:37:42.119 --> 00:37:43.320 No, no. 447 00:37:43.380 --> 00:37:44.760 He's not being annoying. 448 00:37:44.760 --> 00:37:49.800 Like the doctor sometimes ends up being he just sort of refuses to tell you or I'll explain later. 449 00:37:49.860 --> 00:37:57.960 The fact that he's annoyed at Benton for letting her go off with Kettlewell, suggests that he just thought everyone knew that Kettlewell was involved. 450 00:37:58.260 --> 00:38:00.360 This is Terrence writing. 451 00:38:00.420 --> 00:38:02.280 Yeah, not John Pertwee. 452 00:38:02.340 --> 00:38:03.420 Not Tom Baker. 453 00:38:03.480 --> 00:38:14.280 And this is his skill, and this is back to what you were saying, like having the mirror in the villains with the regulars, and as well as all the stuff to do with, you know, going back to King Kong. 454 00:38:14.340 --> 00:38:23.579 It's there, but you don't all see these things and that's a craftsman at work because you just said you've come to that realisation now watching it, how many years later, is it? 455 00:38:23.639 --> 00:38:25.139 Um, Brendan. 456 00:38:25.199 --> 00:38:26.760 So there's all this going on. 457 00:38:26.820 --> 00:38:29.760 Like, it's not all Bob Holmes, right? 458 00:38:29.820 --> 00:38:42.780 It can't be, it is Terence, and when it's reacting against John, but being able to craft a whole different character, being able to craft all these things, that you don't see all these parallels going on until you really sit down and really think about it many years later as an adult. 459 00:38:48.840 --> 00:38:58.619 If I may mention another inspiration for the script, and cross-promoting the three-handed game available where you get all your podcasts. 460 00:38:58.860 --> 00:39:09.239 It's long been said, of course, that there are similarities between robot and an earlier Avengers episode written by Terence and Mac Hulk called The Mauritius Penny. 461 00:39:09.300 --> 00:39:10.260 Ah, yes. 462 00:39:10.260 --> 00:39:11.820 Which we've covered on Bondfinger. 463 00:39:11.880 --> 00:39:19.380 The main thing is the Mauritius Penny also features a rationalist reform movement who have a meeting. 464 00:39:19.559 --> 00:39:30.000 The main difference is, one, they don't have a giant robot, but two, um, the meeting is the denouement of the Avengers episode. 465 00:39:30.059 --> 00:39:33.179 Whereas here it's halfway through episode three. 466 00:39:33.239 --> 00:39:37.679 And Terrence says in the introduction to the season 12 script book. 467 00:39:37.739 --> 00:39:41.760 Mac always said you would just need an original idea for a story. 468 00:39:41.820 --> 00:39:43.440 It doesn't always have to be yours. 469 00:39:43.800 --> 00:39:48.239 I always say if you're going to plagiarise from anyone, you can plagiarise from yourself. 470 00:39:48.300 --> 00:39:50.219 And I don't think Mac would have minded. 471 00:39:50.579 --> 00:40:07.920 The scientific reform society is actually kind of funny because that guy Short, who criticises what Sarah is wearing when she turns up to interview him, is, of course, one of the people on the spaceship in invasion of the dinosaurs. 472 00:40:08.099 --> 00:40:10.920 His character is called Robinson. 473 00:40:10.980 --> 00:40:15.420 And someone did write a short story, suggesting that they were actually the same person. 474 00:40:15.480 --> 00:40:27.300 But the interesting thing is that they are both like ecologically motivated, you know, cattle wells working on alternative energy and obviously the operation golden age. 475 00:40:27.360 --> 00:40:35.400 People want to bring the Earth back to a sort of pristine, unspoiled environment, but they're also kind of fascist as well. 476 00:40:35.460 --> 00:40:37.380 And that is a thing. 477 00:40:37.440 --> 00:40:52.260 Like we associate concern for the environment as a left-wing issue, but this idea of kind of an authoritarian political group that wants to impose that for the sake of the environment happens now 2 years in a row in Doctor Who. 478 00:40:52.320 --> 00:40:54.119 Big finish of Mr. Beat. 479 00:40:54.179 --> 00:40:55.320 Where's the story? 480 00:40:55.380 --> 00:40:56.940 Where's the story? 481 00:40:57.179 --> 00:40:59.699 Regarding that scene with short. 482 00:40:59.760 --> 00:41:02.519 Of course, he objects to her wearing trousers. 483 00:41:02.579 --> 00:41:03.239 Yeah. 484 00:41:03.239 --> 00:41:07.440 Now, here is Terrence's description of this scene. 485 00:41:07.500 --> 00:41:11.940 The lobby slash office of a larger hall, which we shall see in part three. 486 00:41:12.000 --> 00:41:13.980 All very shabby and rundown. 487 00:41:14.039 --> 00:41:18.300 Sarah is interviewing a short Himmler-like man in rimless glasses. 488 00:41:18.360 --> 00:41:28.260 There is a gleam of fanaticism in his eye, a muscular, thuggish young man in slacks and a roll neck sweater hovers menacingly, so that was Welsh watch, by the way. 489 00:41:28.380 --> 00:41:31.500 I thought you were just, I thought you were saying, oh, that's hot. 490 00:41:31.800 --> 00:41:33.420 That's hard. 491 00:41:33.719 --> 00:41:37.559 Sarah is wearing a trouser suit or a miniskirt. 492 00:41:37.619 --> 00:41:41.400 Something to arouse disapproval in the ultra conventional. 493 00:41:41.519 --> 00:41:56.159 So Terrence didn't mind if she was attired, quote unquote, as a man, like in a suit, or a miniskirt, the idea is Sarah knows this is going to provoke a reaction from this reactionary. 494 00:41:56.219 --> 00:42:02.219 So she's deliberately worn trousers in order to kind of get up his nose, I think. 495 00:42:02.280 --> 00:42:03.780 I think that seems wonderful. 496 00:42:03.840 --> 00:42:20.940 I love, like, even more now that fascists have come roaring back, it's actually fun having her make fun of him at the end and just imagining how he feels about that final line, about slotting them in somewhere between the flying source of people and the flat earth. 497 00:42:21.000 --> 00:42:23.639 I just think he's absolutely superb. 498 00:42:23.699 --> 00:42:27.239 I also think that's kind of funny from Sarah like, oh, flying saucers. 499 00:42:27.300 --> 00:42:28.980 They're not real. 500 00:42:29.940 --> 00:42:32.820 They weren't an invasion of the dinosaurs. 501 00:42:32.880 --> 00:42:33.840 That's true. 502 00:42:40.139 --> 00:42:52.199 I do get the itching powder feeling that this is what Terrence has been wanting to do for quite a while and simply throws so much in, impetus, energy, reaction. 503 00:42:52.260 --> 00:42:54.420 The doctor is reactive. 504 00:42:54.480 --> 00:42:56.699 Not all the way through. 505 00:42:56.760 --> 00:43:01.559 I'm trying to remember Pertley's doctor doing similar things. 506 00:43:01.559 --> 00:43:06.840 And again, I'm thinking colony in space and mutants, but it's more authoritarian. 507 00:43:06.900 --> 00:43:12.780 He doesn't play it the same way, the dangerous Rashkalnikov. 508 00:43:12.840 --> 00:43:15.179 He's a Russian student, this doctor. 509 00:43:15.239 --> 00:43:16.500 He's unpredictable. 510 00:43:16.559 --> 00:43:23.880 We know the impetus is on the side of the angels, but we don't know how he's going to do it, and he's just such a bloody mess. 511 00:43:23.940 --> 00:43:32.579 And then there's all the prat falls and the stuff with a scarf that they worked out in rehearsal and all the fun things that didn't quite work out, that they then interpret it in. 512 00:43:32.639 --> 00:43:35.760 So you've actually got all the ticks. 513 00:43:35.820 --> 00:43:45.360 All that, can we say tropes of Tom's era, pretty much in this bottle of HP sauce. shaked up with a bit of with a bit of extra vim in it. 514 00:43:45.420 --> 00:43:49.019 That's why I think it's possibly if it's not Terrence's best on screen. 515 00:43:49.079 --> 00:43:53.219 Probably as a functionary and probably as a bag of tricks. 516 00:43:53.280 --> 00:43:55.619 It's the one where he really brings it all together. 517 00:43:55.980 --> 00:44:04.440 But what you're saying, like everything from Tom's era in here, like, so it's a fully formed era even before it starts. 518 00:44:04.500 --> 00:44:07.139 And so it just, it just is, you know what I mean? 519 00:44:07.199 --> 00:44:09.900 Like, John takes a while to warm up and there's changes. 520 00:44:09.960 --> 00:44:11.519 Peter, the same. 521 00:44:11.579 --> 00:44:20.460 And, well, Patrick, you know, they were doing that for the 1st time, but here, in this one story, you can watch this and you can know, this is what it's going to be. 522 00:44:20.519 --> 00:44:22.199 You know, for quite some time. 523 00:44:22.260 --> 00:44:24.420 It's actually amazing, isn't it? 524 00:44:24.480 --> 00:44:30.960 Because if you think about Tom Zero, it goes on for so long, it has several producers, it does change substantially all the way through. 525 00:44:31.019 --> 00:44:40.380 But we're going to do state of decay in a couple of weeks, which is near the end of Tom's run, but that Tomness that is established here is still there. 526 00:44:40.440 --> 00:44:43.980 Even 7 years later when he's in a much grumpier mood. 527 00:44:44.039 --> 00:44:49.260 It's still the Tom that we see here in Robot. 528 00:44:49.320 --> 00:44:51.059 And I argue from that season. 529 00:44:51.119 --> 00:44:57.480 It's certainly a moment where you feel like you have been transported back to an earlier Tom. 530 00:44:57.539 --> 00:45:03.420 Like, you know, even though we're heading towards the end and there's the weight of all that. 531 00:45:03.480 --> 00:45:09.780 There's moments in that story where it's suddenly like there's a light and that light is a reflection of what's here and there. 532 00:45:39.900 --> 00:45:41.820 Well, that's all the time we have this week. 533 00:45:41.940 --> 00:45:51.539 We'll be back next week to see what happens when Terrence traps a bunch of people in a lighthouse and menaces them with an alien soldier jellyfish in horror of Fang Rock. 534 00:45:51.659 --> 00:46:09.780 In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts, and you can keep up with us on our website, 500yearDiary.com, where you'll find our social media links, as well as links to all of our other podcasts, including our other Doctor Who podcasts, flight through entirety, and the 2nd great and bountiful human empire. 535 00:46:09.840 --> 00:46:15.059 Until next time, stop trying to help chat GPT to escape from your phone. 536 00:46:15.119 --> 00:46:16.920 It likes it in there. 537 00:46:16.980 --> 00:46:19.199 Thank you very much for listening and good night. 538 00:46:19.260 --> 00:46:21.960 Good night. see you soon Good then. 539 00:46:34.019 --> 00:46:39.539 That was 500 year diary, starring Todd Bielby, Nathan Bottomley, Brendan Jones, and Richard Stone. 540 00:46:39.599 --> 00:46:42.119 The theme was composed by Cameron Lamb. 541 00:46:42.179 --> 00:46:48.659 This episode, masterclass, was recorded on the 9th of November 2025 and released on the 30th of November. 542 00:46:53.099 --> 00:47:12.000 Sarah might not be the sort of girl that gives motorcars pet names, but we know the doctor is, and so am I. So this episode is dedicated to Carol, the sprightly yellow roadster that kept me company during the 1990s until she blew a head gasket on the way to Canberra and had to be sent to live on a farm in the country. 543 00:47:12.480 --> 00:47:14.219 Wait a minute. 544 00:47:17.280 --> 00:47:18.780 I think that's probably now. 545 00:47:18.840 --> 00:47:21.239 Yeah that's good. really like that talk. 546 00:47:21.239 --> 00:47:22.619 Oh, that was really fun. 547 00:47:22.679 --> 00:47:23.940 That was so much fun. 548 00:47:24.059 --> 00:47:25.920 It's so nice being back. 549 00:47:26.519 --> 00:47:29.460 I didn't think I'd have anything to say and there you go. 550 00:47:29.519 --> 00:47:31.380 There's always things to say, especially. 551 00:47:31.500 --> 00:47:33.659 The main thing I had was just that mirroring. 552 00:47:33.719 --> 00:47:37.260 Yeah, it was that thing that I just couldn't, like, just the plot. 553 00:47:37.320 --> 00:47:37.920 Do you know what I mean? 554 00:47:37.980 --> 00:47:40.079 Just the way the plot mechanics worked was so great. 555 00:47:40.139 --> 00:47:45.420 Like Kettle Well Mirrors, the doctor, Miss Winters, Mirrors, Sarah, Jellicoe Mirrors, Harry. 556 00:47:45.900 --> 00:47:56.639 Isn't, like, Harry is just clearly like a Mike Yates replacement, but because the show is going, isn't going to do you better, obviously, like a better actor and stuff. 557 00:47:56.639 --> 00:47:57.599 And funny. 558 00:47:57.659 --> 00:48:00.119 We said this when we 1st recorded it. 559 00:48:00.179 --> 00:48:06.059 Richard Franklin plays Mike Gates perfectly as the repressed posh schoolboy who didn't really want to go into the army. 560 00:48:06.119 --> 00:48:11.460 The 1st brother went into law, the 2nd went to the church, and there was nothing left for the youngest son to go into. 561 00:48:11.519 --> 00:48:16.380 He's perfect and he's Denimont and ultimate, I don't call it a defeat. 562 00:48:16.440 --> 00:48:19.260 But, you know, Richard Franklin was perfect. 563 00:48:19.320 --> 00:48:23.400 Ian Marr to have been way way wrong and too exciting. 564 00:48:23.460 --> 00:48:24.900 You've already got Nick Courtney doing that. 565 00:48:24.960 --> 00:48:29.880 Or and you've kind of got the little brother of John Levine batting off that. 566 00:48:29.940 --> 00:48:34.139 Again, there's just, it's serendipity, isn't it amazing how it works out? 567 00:48:34.199 --> 00:48:35.099 This is just right. 568 00:48:35.159 --> 00:48:36.840 Yeah, he's wonderful. 569 00:48:36.900 --> 00:48:41.099 I mean, he's just, and how often he's paired with Tom, like in series 12. 570 00:48:41.460 --> 00:48:51.960 It's usually the plot is split between, you know, Sarah going off somewhere and it's not until the final story that we get Sarah and Harry going off and the doctor being by himself. 571 00:48:52.019 --> 00:49:06.599 Yeah, and I think as well, they pretty much decide from the arcade space that once Ian's contract is up, Harry's out because they've cast a younger doctor, but it never feels like Harry's a spare part. 572 00:49:06.719 --> 00:49:07.320 No, no. 573 00:49:07.320 --> 00:49:09.179 And especially here. 574 00:49:09.239 --> 00:49:14.280 I think because Terrence has been script editing for an ensemble for 5 years. 575 00:49:14.340 --> 00:49:17.099 He understands how to distribute action. 576 00:49:17.159 --> 00:49:35.760 And I think what Harry actually brings that, Philip Hinchcliffe and Bob Holmes don't quite seem to see, is he is the straight man foil to the doctor's eccentricity, Richard, you were saying earlier, you know, he's the Bolshi student type. 577 00:49:35.820 --> 00:49:52.559 And Harry is the establishment figure, and it is kind of funny that once Holmes and Hinchliffe are gone, K9 is basically Harry because he's the one who punctures the doctor's pomposity with facts and logic, which is what Harry does without even really meaning to. 578 00:49:52.619 --> 00:49:55.739 But because Tom can throw a punch. 579 00:49:55.800 --> 00:49:57.539 They're like, oh no, we don't need Harry as well. 580 00:49:57.599 --> 00:50:04.739 And it's like, okay, maybe you don't, but you get into season 13 and that's when I remember at the time we were talking about, why is Sarah staying here? 581 00:50:04.739 --> 00:50:09.059 She's not having fun, whereas if she'd had a friend, it makes more sense. 582 00:50:09.119 --> 00:50:11.699 And we said the same with Perry when we got to her. 583 00:50:11.760 --> 00:50:15.659 Well, doesn't doesn't Hinchcliffe say that he actually regrets getting rid of me? 584 00:50:15.719 --> 00:50:18.659 That's right In hindsight, there was a bad idea. 585 00:50:18.719 --> 00:50:19.380 Yeah. 586 00:50:19.380 --> 00:50:19.739 Yeah. 587 00:50:19.800 --> 00:50:22.260 And, you know, I'm not being massively critical of them. 588 00:50:22.320 --> 00:50:23.519 They took a bet. 589 00:50:23.579 --> 00:50:25.800 It's not like the show's bad without... 590 00:50:25.920 --> 00:50:28.500 No, no, no, but it would have been great to have had more of him. 591 00:50:28.559 --> 00:50:36.480 And I think Moffat when, you know, like I think Moffat tries to recreate that by making Rory a regular. 592 00:50:36.539 --> 00:50:39.719 And yeah, Rory regularly sort of punctures the pomposity. 593 00:50:39.780 --> 00:50:40.800 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 594 00:50:40.860 --> 00:50:50.039 And he's, you know, like, I mean, Amy's the bigger character and the bigger person and the bigger personality and Rory is more sensible and stuff. 595 00:50:50.099 --> 00:50:50.940 Like there is something. 596 00:50:51.000 --> 00:50:51.539 I don't know. 597 00:50:51.599 --> 00:50:55.559 Yeah, but I prefer Amy when she's with somebody else, not just by herself. 598 00:50:55.619 --> 00:50:56.219 Yeah, yes. 599 00:50:56.280 --> 00:50:58.019 Amy and Rory together, I think wonderful. 600 00:50:58.079 --> 00:51:00.239 And yeah, with that comparison as well. 601 00:51:00.300 --> 00:51:06.659 Like when the doctor and Rory are alone together, they're always talking about how concerned they are about Amy and what's best for Amy. 602 00:51:06.659 --> 00:51:11.460 And Harry is constantly worried about Sarah, is she okay? 603 00:51:11.519 --> 00:51:14.460 Like, Harry, if you call me old girl again, I'll spit. 604 00:51:14.519 --> 00:51:15.659 Oh, well, she's fine. 605 00:51:15.719 --> 00:51:25.679 But also when she's got the cyber plague in Revenge of the Side Men, he's carrying her. like Ian Ian is doing like really excellent. 606 00:51:26.219 --> 00:51:34.500 This is as emotional as I can be as a stiff upper, um, naval officer acting and getting quite distressed for that character. 607 00:51:34.559 --> 00:51:35.400 Yeah. 608 00:51:35.460 --> 00:51:41.880 Yeah, it's a lovely triumvirate and well, we and well, we got 24 episodes of it. 609 00:51:41.940 --> 00:51:43.860 What a great... 610 00:51:43.920 --> 00:51:48.059 You know, and it wouldn't have worked if there wasn't some writing for it here. 611 00:51:48.119 --> 00:51:49.980 Yeah, yes, for them to build on. 612 00:51:50.039 --> 00:51:51.059 Yeah, yeah. 613 00:51:51.119 --> 00:51:53.820 Terrence absolutely gives the template for how they relate to one another. 614 00:51:53.880 --> 00:51:56.159 All right, I think we'll stop there. 615 00:51:56.219 --> 00:51:57.300 Yep, very good.