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NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 09:12:18

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to 500 Year Diary, the only Doctor Who podcast that stole a portable recorder and a bunch of microphones, and went off to criticise the universe.

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The universe is so tiresome.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm James.

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I'm Todd.

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What is your name?

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My name is Peter.

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My name is Peter.

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Well, it's the 19th of April, 1969.

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Tonight sees the broadcast of the 1st episode of a story that will change or challenge or cancel the show that we've come to love over the past 5.5 years.

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A couple of scripts have fallen through.

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Pat, Wendy, and Fraser are all leaving, and the show is going off in a new direction.

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And so Doctor Who script editor, Terence Dix, has come up with a solution.

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Collaborating with his mentor, Malcolm Hulk, to write a 10 part epic culminating in the introduction of the doctor's people and his exile to the planet Earth.

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So what does Terence Dix bring to the program?

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As writer, script editor, novelist, and crazy uncle Terence, and what is his legacy?

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Let's start looking for an answer to these questions as we discuss the war games.

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Just to get this out of the way, I was born a very, very few hours away from the 1st airing of episode 2 of the War Games, so I'm the only Trout and Baby here, and it came as a very pleasant surprise to me watching it this time round that it's actually pretty great.

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That means in Australia, you were probably born around about a repeat of the ice warriors.

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Probably, probably.

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I haven't checked actually.

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Let's just start by talking about the production generally before we move on to talking about the script and Terence's contribution.

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I'll just say that I am mostly in Doctor Who for the monsters.

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And so I have always felt that this was overlong and a bit dull.

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But this time, I just thought it was magnificent.

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Yes, it's magnificent.

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I've always liked this story.

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There are no monsters.

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Like, where's the slither?

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Bring back ter Nation, I say.

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But the whole production, like the World War I setting and the use of, didn't they use the sets of another production that?

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I think they did, yeah.

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It just occurred.

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I thought they just taken the rubbish to Brighton and decided to film that.

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No, this was a location. previous thing.

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Yes, that's it.

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But the fact that it keeps up the pace all the way through, and you're getting new information every few episodes really helps.

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I think I think maybe it kind of sags a little bit around about episode five. where we get sort of David Trown and stuff, but otherwise I think, yes, it's absolutely amazing.

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And I was careful to watch it an episode at a time.

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And so to have it be this thing that Doctor Who does for 2.5 months is actually really what's happening and that's kind of great.

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I watched it in 25 episode blocks and it was equally good.

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I think there is an all-time best 8 parter in this story.

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And as it is, it's pretty great, but you could probably stand to lose, I would say, most of the Civil War segments and maybe Archuro Villa, and then it would be absolutely stonkingly good, but as it is, it's amazing.

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And I think Doctor Who does Epic so few times in its history, in the original series, I think you'd probably count the Daleks master plan, for obvious reasons, Legopolis, for the stakes, and maybe Genesis of the Daleks, because of what that does as well.

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But this is one of them.

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Not only do you have series changing developments, but its length and the scope of the villainy just make it something really special.

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And I think that means that its reputation in recent years has skyrocketed.

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So if you look at the 3 Doctor Who magazine polls, which have looked at every story and ranks them in order.

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It sort of came in in like the 20s in the mighty 200 and 2009.

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But as new fans came aboard and started to watch it, and it presses all those buttons with the end of season extravaganza, and, you know, the epic finale, all that kind of thing, it's risen and risen.

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So last time in 2023, even though they didn't print the entire rankings, we know what they are, it cracked the top 10 and was by far the most popular charting story.

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Wow.

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What did you think, James?

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I loved it.

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I think I loved it as a child.

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But then in the intervening time, fan wisdom kind of intervened, and I never really went back to it.

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But watching it, watching it now, I was hooked.

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I actually had to eke it out.

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I watched a couple of episodes a day for about for about a week.

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Um, and yeah, it's just, I don't see, I don't see where this is boring and over long and a bit tedious came from.

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Yeah, I think maybe I identify different bits.

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Like, I think once Arturo Villa comes along that lifts it a bit because now we have an actual purpose.

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Like the resistance is now trying to break into the base.

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And you're also back in the one really good war.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, there's that too.

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Gosh, that's set.

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That whole thing, the 1st World War thing.

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I mean, it's obviously, you know, black out of the fall.

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In lots of ways, you know, there's a chateau and all of that.

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But this is the 1st time Doctor Who's done.

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Recent history, that people living would be watching this and identifying with it.

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Every other historical up to this point is further back than that.

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Yes.

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Well, there was plenty of people who'd been to Tibet in 1935.

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Don't forget that.

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I mean, I think like, I'm probably jumping ahead a bit, but I think that episode one is possibly the best episode, and I think that the reason that it's so good is precisely what you identify.

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This is real history and it's real history that's important to the viewers.

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And because at this point, Doctor Who can't do the Second World War.

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It's too recent and too raw. thought about doing it and then had jettisoned the idea.

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Yeah, okay.

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Yeah.

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No, I'm not surprised.

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And so that sort of stands as a proxy.

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I think for the 2nd World War because it's a war in Europe against the Germans.

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And suddenly the doctor's shtick doesn't work in this environment.

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Like nothing that the doctor does.

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You know, there's the moment where Zoe tries to break him out of the prison in episode one and he just ends up immediately facing the guy and being.

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Oh, what a good and clever girl.

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Yes.

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Yeah, yeah.

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All of that stuff, you know, none of his talk works, nothing works.

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It's it's like Caves of Andrazani.

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It is like a regeneration story.

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None of the doctor's Doctor Who stuff works at all and it culminates with him facing a firing squad.

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What I also love about it is we find out as the audience really, quite early on, there's something else going on.

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I don't think Zoe.

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And then the doctor find out until midway towards the end of episode 2 that this isn't just them stuck in the 1st World War.

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But we find out as an audience when Smythe goes into his office somewhere in episode one.

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Yeah.

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So we are we are in the know when the main characters are not.

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And that really sort of wrongfoots them for quite a long time until she discovers the screen in the office.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Yeah.

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I want to go back to what you were saying there, Nathan.

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There's a feeling of desperation throughout Doctor Who Epics, and this is one of them, where things go wrong from the off.

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Now, even though this is 10 episodes, episode one is a belter of an episode, we're 3 minutes in.

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They've already met Lieutenant Carstairs, Lady Jennifer, and been waylaid by the Germans.

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That's 3 minutes into the 1st episode of a 10 episode story.

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But this doctor is used to fighting lumbering monsters.

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When you take those out, his shtick doesn't work.

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Because against the banality of evil that we have in this story, against human atrocity and, you know, the situation he's in, but also the plan of the warlord people, that's something that he isn't equipped to fight.

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And so, you know, he has to look for help.

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But yeah, there's a real feeling of desperation and of growing panic in Troughton's performance.

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And I think in episode one where it is mostly just the 1st World War.

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And even the thing that we see that James mentioned, where Smythe kind of hypnotises the guy.

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He's just doing it with eyeglasses and as he's the way you do it.

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That's it.

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But he's not doing it with a space ray or anything like that, you know, it's still kind of period appropriate.

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And of course, that was the kind of power that senior officers have that the chain of command has.

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They just tell you what to believe and you have to believe it.

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They tell you what to do and you have to do it. especially in World War I, where you still had aristocrats as the officers, sending basically the working classes cannon fodder.

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That's right.

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That's right.

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And one thing that we will get to is I think that this story is surprisingly political, given sort of Terence's kind of stated political opinions, in the future, I think that it is very strongly anti-war and very interesting when it comes to talking about class.

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But you know, I think Terence is surprisingly political.

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Because, you know, even though he had a healthy sense of humour about things.

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He once described the Nazis to me as watching incredible gang of cooks, which, you know, is fair understatements of what the Nazis were.

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I think he actually had a very strongly defined moral centre, and one of the hallmarks of his writing, which we will return to, is that the doctor has a very strong moral centre.

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So throughout this story, Troughton, who is not, his doctor is not given to overstatement, uses words like disgusting, disgraceful to talk about the warlord's plans.

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He's really animated about it.

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It's really quite striking.

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And I do think that that 1st World War set and all of that is better, you know, that sort of tedious Civil War barn or whatever.

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No, no, it sets it up really well, like it's so strong at the beginning and that just permeates through those 1st 8 episodes.

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Yeah.

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The other thing too is I was kind of surprised by how quickly we were in the base and the base...

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Yeah, the bass is amazingly great.

137
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Holy crap, it's well designed.

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And you can see why they wanted to do a colorised version because it is so kind of pop art and stuff.

139
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But for me, it's just the perfect black and white television set where it has matte surfaces and reflective surfaces that has things that are see-through and things that are patterned, things that are unbelievably 60s.

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You know, you're kind of getting...

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It's a final flapping around.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Those funny corridors that they go through that aren't really corridors.

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They just set up, you know?

145
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Yeah, all the negative space.

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Just negative space.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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All the Warhol style kind of...

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In space again until full circle.

150
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And then you get to California and it's quite boring.

151
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But then you have that weird...

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No, no, no, but by comparison, visually.

153
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But then you get that wonderful running through the cement walkways in the middle of the dry ice with the flapping pieces of PVC.

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Yeah, yeah.

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It's like the garden that was out the back of the Draconian place in frontier in space.

156
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I mean, I just think that looks unbelievably great.

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And the glasses are of a piece with that.

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Like the whole thing is so pop art and so fantastic.

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Just unbelievable.

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I think, in fact, like, I actually think that this is the best version of Gamma fray that we ever get at the end of it.

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I think it looks really great.

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I would have loved to have seen. partial to the 3 doctors.

163
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Yeah, yeah, that is not that is an incredible game show set. ruling the universe from, isn't it?

164
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With cement, sort of slab walls with the little floaty squares on the top of little poles.

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Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Waving about.

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It's unbelievable See, the reason it's so good is the director.

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Dave Maloney has a vision for this story and you can see it throughout the 10 episodes.

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These epics only work when you get someone like David Maloney on this story or Dougie Canfield on the Daleks master plan who can see from the start to the end and create this entire sweep of a story.

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So the design ethos is incredibly strong.

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What else has he directed up to this point?

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The crotons?

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Well, there's a vision for that.

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And the mind dropber.

175
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Yeah, okay.

176
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Well, man, yeah, yeah.

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Isn't that funny?

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The 2 episodes that we watched here in Australia, the 2 trout and episodes that we actually got to see on TV at our age, the crotons in the mind, Robert.

179
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That's pretty incredible.

180
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I also think that the Time Lord Planet is good because it's only in that one episode.

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Yeah, yeah.

182
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Yeah, we're not overdoing it.

183
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But he gets all of those moments right as well.

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So that incredible scene in episode nine, and this is vastly aided by Philip Maddock, of course, where the doctor has made good his escape, and the warlord just catches himself, and that sound effect comes in of the wind, and he just says, they're coming.

185
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That's an incredible moment in the drama.

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And if that had been overplayed or shot differently.

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It wouldn't have had so much impact, but Maloney knows what he's doing.

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He's really good.

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I mean, he is really great.

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Who would have thought, by the way, that the one director would direct 2 stories that opened with the doctor and his companions coming out onto a planetary landscape and having to hide from an artillery attack?

191
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Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

192
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Same opening to 2 stories?

193
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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Yeah, I mean, he goes on to be just incredibly reliable.

195
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I don't think we've talked about him enough on FTE.

196
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He's a great director.

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The other thing that I think is really striking is just how incredibly strong the cliffhangers are.

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The Cliffhanger to episode one, we've already talked about where the doctor gets shot, the Cliffhanger of episode 2, where we see the Romans suddenly.

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There's heaps of cliffhangers that involve a development in the plot rather than peril, like some new exciting thing happening, but the peril is also really excellent.

200
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And even when it is just peril, they're these wonderful boy zone cliffhangers, which you just see Terence chortling over like the walls of the walls kind of closing in on them.

201
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They've just taken that.

202
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Fantastic.

203
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It's really well done, isn't it?

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There is a fabulous one where someone's about to be shot and then someone walks in at the beginning of the next episode and puts a stop to it.

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Terrence was a great fan of Raymond Chandler and those kind of thrillers, and so he subscribed to that kind of ethos of if the action slows down, Have a man with a gun walk into the room.

206
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Speaking about the cliffhanger with the Sid rat crushing them.

207
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I love the denim of that, which is just so simple, and boy's own, which is the doctor comes out with a smoke bomb in his hand, drops it, and then steals the controls and runs back in.

208
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I mean, there are plenty of instances in this story of them failing to get the thing they want running around a bit and then coming back to get the thing they want.

209
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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

210
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Which I'm on board for.

211
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That's great There is a little bit of that.

212
00:16:36.539 --> 00:16:46.259
There's the one where we sort of put Zoe into one of the transport machines and then the doctor goes, oh, no, I have to go back and get the processing thing and it just seems to be why we're doing this?

213
00:16:46.379 --> 00:16:49.799
And then they take it away and then the security chief comes and gets the processing.

214
00:16:49.860 --> 00:16:52.500
Lots of talking urgently in negative space.

215
00:16:52.559 --> 00:16:53.700
Yeah, exactly.

216
00:16:53.820 --> 00:17:01.679
I also think too that there is, and I blame Terrence for this, I think, because this is going to be a thing going forward.

217
00:17:01.740 --> 00:17:13.859
Terrence is obviously more interested in having women in the show than either Terry Nation or Bob Holmes, but he's not particularly interested in having women in the show.

218
00:17:13.859 --> 00:17:28.920
And I am absolutely, still terribly cross that Lady Jennifer only gets 5 episodes and then we, she just disappears to go off and look after some union soldiers or something at the end of episode five.

219
00:17:28.980 --> 00:17:31.980
It's a shame that there's no women in the warlord.

220
00:17:32.339 --> 00:17:39.240
Yeah, you know, that would have been good just to sort of have a balance, but it is one thing in there that you notice that it's only Zoe and Lady Jennifer.

221
00:17:39.299 --> 00:17:39.900
Yeah.

222
00:17:39.900 --> 00:17:51.000
But I also think, you know, Terrence is co-writing this with Malcolm, and I think sometimes that's a good thing to bounce off ideas and actually, you know, just it just helps hone what is going down, you know what I mean?

223
00:17:51.059 --> 00:17:54.779
We can't we can't underestimate his contribution to this.

224
00:17:54.839 --> 00:17:59.160
I mean, Terence told me that they had about 20 days to write the 10 episodes.

225
00:17:59.220 --> 00:18:10.799
And he'd met Mac Hulk because Terrence started in copywriting and one of his friends there got married and was moving out of his rooms in Hampstead and said to Terrence, do you want these rooms?

226
00:18:10.859 --> 00:18:15.900
Terence said, yes, went along, and Mac Hulk and his great aunt or something owned the house.

227
00:18:15.960 --> 00:18:19.259
So he got to meet.

228
00:18:19.319 --> 00:18:24.299
We got to meet this strange little balding man, as he described them, just round and about the place.

229
00:18:24.359 --> 00:18:25.559
They became friends.

230
00:18:25.619 --> 00:18:33.660
They were like Terence and Barry Lett in that their affinity was very close, but they focussed on different things and they had different politics.

231
00:18:33.720 --> 00:18:36.299
And so we asked Mac Holt to come on board and help him.

232
00:18:36.359 --> 00:18:45.180
And apparently what they did was they just spent 20 days living together would get together in the morning, hash some ideas out for whatever episode they were about to start.

233
00:18:45.240 --> 00:18:54.839
Mac would sit at the typewriter because he was a very fast touch typist and just commit everything they were talking about to paper, while Terence kind of marched up and down, just chortling to himself and having these ideas.

234
00:18:54.900 --> 00:18:57.299
So that was basically the way that it worked.

235
00:18:57.359 --> 00:18:59.519
I think this is very strongly Terence.

236
00:18:59.579 --> 00:19:09.359
I think the morality aspect is what we'll come to expect from Mac Hulk during the Pertwi years, but all of this feels very Terrency to me.

237
00:19:09.420 --> 00:19:40.500
Because, I mean, it is that thing we identified before about officers and just normal enlisted man and the class thing and the way that that gets kind of turned into this thing where all of the wars in human history are being run by people who have their own evil agenda, who are tricking the people below them into fighting for patriotic reasons or other personal. reasons.

238
00:19:40.559 --> 00:19:42.420
Literally using them as pawns.

239
00:19:42.420 --> 00:19:42.900
Exactly.

240
00:19:42.960 --> 00:19:44.099
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

241
00:19:44.160 --> 00:19:49.319
And I think that's really, really striking and much, much more political than I would normally expect from Terrence.

242
00:19:49.380 --> 00:20:00.240
It does sound like a kind of Marxist reading of things, which it may actually be from Mac Hulk was, in fact, very, very left wing.

243
00:20:00.299 --> 00:20:02.099
I'm not sure if he was a Marxist or not.

244
00:20:02.160 --> 00:20:10.259
I suspected that he was, but they had some crossover in that in that Terence had a great aversion to tyranny, authoritarianism.

245
00:20:10.319 --> 00:20:14.279
And that shines through not only in his own writing, but in the per we era as well.

246
00:20:14.339 --> 00:20:23.759
Just the sheer kind of horror of that court martial in episode one, where it's just clearly everyone's lying and nothing can be done.

247
00:20:23.819 --> 00:20:28.859
And like Zoe is kind of apoplectic, she can't believe that this is what's going on.

248
00:20:28.920 --> 00:20:29.700
I'm Zoe.

249
00:20:29.759 --> 00:20:31.619
Like, I'm there going, 0 my goodness.

250
00:20:31.680 --> 00:20:33.420
Like, I can't believe what's happening.

251
00:20:33.480 --> 00:20:40.859
And it's, as you said, like, there's just this impending sort of doom or dread, like, you know, the shtick isn't working.

252
00:20:40.920 --> 00:20:44.400
It's set up right there at the beginning and it just keeps on flowing.

253
00:20:44.460 --> 00:20:49.920
Episode two, which is probably the 1st episode broadcast into a world where I'm there.

254
00:20:50.640 --> 00:20:58.440
The shtick starts working again, and I am a little bit disappointed, but I'm glad that they did what they did in episode one.

255
00:20:58.500 --> 00:21:07.319
Clearly the doctor, you know, in episode 2 goes to the military prison and pretends to be some guy and all of his bluster and normal stuff is working once again.

256
00:21:07.380 --> 00:21:09.240
Until it doesn't, of course.

257
00:21:09.299 --> 00:21:09.839
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

258
00:21:09.900 --> 00:21:12.420
But you see again, building on top of the morality.

259
00:21:12.480 --> 00:21:14.160
I think that's very Terence flavoured.

260
00:21:14.220 --> 00:21:18.779
Terrence's conception of the doctor is someone who bamboozles their opponents.

261
00:21:18.839 --> 00:21:24.059
And so he gets that shtick like in episode 2 where he pretends to be the visiting dignitary to the prison.

262
00:21:24.119 --> 00:21:34.680
Also, all of the scenes with the chief scientist on the warlord planet, where he just every time he meets him, he's tricking him in some hilarious way.

263
00:21:34.740 --> 00:21:36.720
And so there's a lot of comedy in that.

264
00:21:36.720 --> 00:21:43.559
And you'll see it again and again in stories like Robot and states him to Kay and particularly the 5 doctors, where the doctor is hilarious.

265
00:21:43.619 --> 00:21:52.380
And I think that's one of the keys to Doctor Who, is that no matter what dire situation they're in, there's humour in there.

266
00:21:52.380 --> 00:21:56.099
And that chief scientist, I just laugh my head up every single time.

267
00:21:56.160 --> 00:22:02.519
Every single time, like they keep coming back to him and he's just getting tricked and then when he gets put in his machine.

268
00:22:02.579 --> 00:22:05.759
I'm just, leave him on simmer.

269
00:22:05.819 --> 00:22:16.920
That's so great But, you know, like if you had 4 episodes, you wouldn't have time to develop that character and just have that bit of comedy running through what is a very dire situation.

270
00:22:16.980 --> 00:22:19.619
And the 3rd tie that the doctor encounters him.

271
00:22:19.680 --> 00:22:24.119
He just comes into frame while the chief scientist sort of looks up at him slowly.

272
00:22:24.720 --> 00:22:28.200
That's amazing That's Vernon Dobchev, by the way.

273
00:22:28.259 --> 00:22:29.579
He's 91 and still with us.

274
00:22:29.640 --> 00:22:30.480
Oh, wonderful.

275
00:22:30.720 --> 00:22:35.279
And he just looks up at him as he walks in and it's like, hello.

276
00:22:35.519 --> 00:22:37.559
That is fabulous.

277
00:22:37.619 --> 00:22:38.700
He's amazing.

278
00:22:38.759 --> 00:22:41.819
He's also very good in the Blake 7 episode Shadow.

279
00:22:41.880 --> 00:22:43.380
Ah, of course.

280
00:22:43.440 --> 00:22:44.279
Yes.

281
00:22:44.759 --> 00:22:50.460
But this is a case of you're only as strong as your weakest link, you know, and if you cast well.

282
00:22:50.519 --> 00:22:55.319
And the characters are written well, then you know, you're going to have a good production.

283
00:22:55.380 --> 00:22:59.220
Yeah, I mean, the characters are not very strongly drawn, are they?

284
00:22:59.339 --> 00:23:07.740
And there's Russell, I think, who ends up being a pretty important guy, and that's a great performance, and he is pretty good, but I couldn't tell you anything about him very much as a person.

285
00:23:07.799 --> 00:23:09.299
Love thy neighbour guy is really good.

286
00:23:09.359 --> 00:23:10.019
What's his name?

287
00:23:10.140 --> 00:23:10.980
Rudolph Walker.

288
00:23:11.039 --> 00:23:12.420
He's so hot too.

289
00:23:12.480 --> 00:23:14.220
What an attractive young man he was.

290
00:23:14.279 --> 00:23:16.859
But it goes back to what we're saying about Terence and Boyzone.

291
00:23:16.920 --> 00:23:21.420
He writes characters with broad strokes, but recognisable.

292
00:23:21.480 --> 00:23:28.140
And so anyone who'd read a boy's own manual would know Lieutenant Carstairs immediately.

293
00:23:28.200 --> 00:23:29.039
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

294
00:23:29.099 --> 00:23:30.839
But isn't that a bit like RTD?

295
00:23:30.900 --> 00:23:37.019
He does broad characters that are recognisable to current audiences and you get to know them very, very quickly.

296
00:23:37.079 --> 00:23:46.259
And I think in this, like, Terrence is the same thing. these characters suddenly through the performance and through the broad strokes suddenly come to life and you recognise them.

297
00:23:46.319 --> 00:23:59.700
Let's think about the guy who runs the military president in episode 2, who likes boring people about, or, you know, there's a, there's something that happens in the chateau as well, where someone's talking about the arrival of supplies or something like that.

298
00:23:59.759 --> 00:24:01.140
Like someone's boring someone.

299
00:24:01.200 --> 00:24:03.359
Boring lady Jennifer.

300
00:24:03.420 --> 00:24:05.700
Please tell me more about the outposts.

301
00:24:05.759 --> 00:24:08.220
Tell me more about the 100 shovels.

302
00:24:08.279 --> 00:24:09.180
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

303
00:24:09.240 --> 00:24:10.559
Wonderful shovels, of course.

304
00:24:10.619 --> 00:24:11.940
Just absolute genius.

305
00:24:12.000 --> 00:24:12.779
So, so good.

306
00:24:12.900 --> 00:24:17.220
And of course, being Terrence, you have to get the moment where as he leaves.

307
00:24:17.339 --> 00:24:20.940
He says, not often people take an interest in this kind of thing.

308
00:24:21.000 --> 00:24:22.440
It's nice to meet someone who does.

309
00:24:22.859 --> 00:24:24.480
So good.

310
00:24:24.539 --> 00:24:26.039
Just so tremendous.

311
00:24:26.099 --> 00:24:27.240
Just terrific style.

312
00:24:27.299 --> 00:24:34.619
All of those walk on characters are amazing, including the one who keeps almost coming across them, blowing up the door to the safe and they can't get rid of.

313
00:24:34.680 --> 00:24:36.480
So you just get these walk-ons who are amazing.

314
00:24:36.539 --> 00:24:47.880
Also, the thing that makes this story fill its length is not that there's one brilliant villain, but 3 brilliant villains all bouncing off each other.

315
00:24:47.940 --> 00:24:50.700
There's endless scenes with just the villains and it's amazing.

316
00:24:50.759 --> 00:25:05.579
Yeah, I mean, I think the soldiers and things, because it goes on for a bunch of time, even the very small parts, they get a lot to do, because you've got 10 episodes or 9 episodes of those soldiers, we do get to know them quite well.

317
00:25:05.640 --> 00:25:17.819
I do want to shout out to Harper because Harper's our 1st union soldier that we meet and he's black, which I think, you know, that's not a given for Doctor Who in this period.

318
00:25:17.880 --> 00:25:19.799
And he's smart.

319
00:25:19.859 --> 00:25:25.680
He's the 1st person that we properly meet, isn't he that's part of the resistance. knows what's going on.

320
00:25:25.740 --> 00:25:27.839
And I think that that resistance thing.

321
00:25:27.900 --> 00:25:40.140
That element where people start to twig to what's really going on, that these wars aren't the wars that they signed up for, that they're not fighting for what they thought they were fighting.

322
00:25:40.200 --> 00:25:43.920
Like again, I think that that's an incredibly strong idea.

323
00:25:43.980 --> 00:25:55.619
And the fact that their knowledge of this enables them to transcend the space restrictions between the various time zones.

324
00:25:56.160 --> 00:26:00.180
It might be the very 1st instance in Doctor of a perception filter.

325
00:26:00.240 --> 00:26:01.319
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

326
00:26:01.380 --> 00:26:04.619
I can't see the screen until I can see it until I focus on it.

327
00:26:04.680 --> 00:26:05.400
That's right.

328
00:26:05.460 --> 00:26:05.819
That's right.

329
00:26:05.880 --> 00:26:06.480
It's so good.

330
00:26:06.539 --> 00:26:08.700
And that setting as well.

331
00:26:08.759 --> 00:26:20.579
We've had nothing at all like that setting, particularly not in this era where we're in the base and rubber monsters are attacking us and that's basically the premise of a whole heap of the era.

332
00:26:20.640 --> 00:26:22.680
This is completely different from that.

333
00:26:22.740 --> 00:26:28.500
We've never had a planet or an environment as weird and artificial as this.

334
00:26:28.559 --> 00:26:33.779
You know, this is, you know, it's not Doctor Who, on the planet in space.

335
00:26:33.839 --> 00:26:35.400
Like there's a home planet.

336
00:26:35.460 --> 00:26:36.599
We don't know what it's called.

337
00:26:36.660 --> 00:26:37.619
There's this planet.

338
00:26:37.680 --> 00:26:38.579
We don't know what it's called.

339
00:26:38.640 --> 00:26:46.140
It's divided into these zones that are separated by some kind of time barrier, which seems like fog or whatever.

340
00:26:46.200 --> 00:26:50.940
It's an absolutely weird and fantastical environment of a kind that we haven't seen.

341
00:26:51.059 --> 00:26:53.640
And Terence actually returns to that idea with the death zone.

342
00:26:53.700 --> 00:26:56.700
Five doctors, the way that it's sort of segmented.

343
00:26:56.759 --> 00:27:02.400
What I find really odd, though, is why do we have the time concept in there?

344
00:27:02.460 --> 00:27:11.460
Sure, we've got time travel to get these various different groups of soldiers from Earth, but why is the planet divided into time zones?

345
00:27:11.519 --> 00:27:13.019
I don't think it is.

346
00:27:13.079 --> 00:27:20.400
I think they call them time barriers when they think that they're travelling in time, but what they are is just a perception barrier so that you can't get between the different segments.

347
00:27:20.460 --> 00:27:23.160
And I think we need to introduce the idea of time.

348
00:27:23.220 --> 00:27:33.839
We're going to talk a little bit about how, you know, the big reveal about who the doctor's people are, how that's handled, but it is seeded quite early, I think.

349
00:27:33.900 --> 00:27:37.920
Terence and Malcolm Hulk know where this story is going.

350
00:27:37.980 --> 00:27:40.980
What they're not doing really is making it up as they go along.

351
00:27:41.039 --> 00:27:42.599
They know the endpoint, I think.

352
00:27:42.660 --> 00:27:45.059
Oh, I think they got the entire story in mind.

353
00:27:45.119 --> 00:27:48.059
They just don't quite know how many episodes are going to go in between.

354
00:27:48.119 --> 00:27:48.539
That's right.

355
00:27:48.539 --> 00:27:49.140
That's right.

356
00:27:49.559 --> 00:27:50.160
Yeah.

357
00:27:50.220 --> 00:27:50.519
Yeah.

358
00:27:50.579 --> 00:28:03.299
But there's a very clear endpoint, and I do think that they do a setup that requires someone with time travel technology to be involved in running it so that... right.

359
00:28:03.359 --> 00:28:06.720
I mean, yes, you know, you can see why those plot reasons are there.

360
00:28:06.839 --> 00:28:19.380
I also think that the warlords are sort of set up as an antithesis at the time, like they're an elemental force almost in a way, and the time lords are definitely an elemental force in this story.

361
00:28:19.440 --> 00:28:23.759
They have so much control over time and the universe and everything.

362
00:28:23.819 --> 00:28:25.859
I mean, it's even in the name, the warlord.

363
00:28:25.920 --> 00:28:26.700
Yeah, yeah.

364
00:28:26.759 --> 00:28:28.619
You've got the time lords and the warlord.

365
00:28:28.680 --> 00:28:30.960
And Warlord is clever, isn't it?

366
00:28:31.019 --> 00:28:32.160
Because it's just a normal word.

367
00:28:32.220 --> 00:28:41.339
Like a warlord is a thing, but he's the warlord, 2 words, you know, pronounce that way, and he does seem to be in opposition to the time lords.

368
00:28:41.400 --> 00:28:48.839
And obviously we never go back there because we never properly come back to this, except in the 5 doctors, as you said.

369
00:28:55.799 --> 00:29:03.420
I think it's very important to notice well that the War Games gets a lot right that the Trout and era as a whole gets wrong.

370
00:29:03.480 --> 00:29:03.960
Yeah, okay.

371
00:29:03.960 --> 00:29:13.019
So when we visited kind of a recognisable earth mostly during the trout and era, it's always been this kind of heightened reality.

372
00:29:13.079 --> 00:29:15.240
It's been Earth 5 minutes in the future.

373
00:29:15.299 --> 00:29:26.579
It's been enemy of the world with that strange geopolitical setup, or it's been the invasion, which is recognisable, but has all of these kind of like developments which 1968 Britain didn't have.

374
00:29:26.640 --> 00:29:31.740
World War one, as you said before, was entirely recognisable to people through media.

375
00:29:31.799 --> 00:29:37.259
They've seen endless films and TV and documentaries on the subject, and it was within living memory.

376
00:29:37.380 --> 00:29:43.619
So I think grounding the story initially in that is a new and different thing for the trout era.

377
00:29:43.680 --> 00:29:46.980
When it then pivots to being an alien world story.

378
00:29:47.039 --> 00:29:50.759
Think about the alien worlds that we've had in the trout era.

379
00:29:50.819 --> 00:29:52.380
They're pretty dull as a bunch.

380
00:29:52.440 --> 00:29:55.259
It's the dominators and the crotons.

381
00:29:55.319 --> 00:29:58.079
And, you know, dry space stations like the wheel in space.

382
00:29:58.140 --> 00:30:05.460
This is an effort to create an alien environment that is interesting and different and has a complete aesthetic to it.

383
00:30:05.519 --> 00:30:13.380
And so it's a story that sets out to do both of those things and gets them both right where the era sometimes hasn't. and has no monsters.

384
00:30:13.440 --> 00:30:14.819
There's no monsters.

385
00:30:14.880 --> 00:30:18.660
Like all of those other space things have monsters appearing or whatever here.

386
00:30:18.720 --> 00:30:24.839
It's built on the warlord people and their motivations and their leaders.

387
00:30:25.259 --> 00:30:30.779
Well, I mean, that's why I kind of love it because it is so different from the rest of the era.

388
00:30:30.839 --> 00:30:35.819
But also it takes people who look like us and makes the monsters.

389
00:30:35.880 --> 00:30:37.559
Well, they look like me.

390
00:30:38.819 --> 00:30:40.799
Might look like you.

391
00:30:40.799 --> 00:30:42.420
On a bad day.

392
00:30:43.259 --> 00:30:52.500
I mean, Sandra sort of says it's like a base under siege in reverse where we're trying to get into a base rather than inhabiting a base that other people are trying to get.

393
00:30:52.859 --> 00:30:55.559
The doctrine is companions to the monster.

394
00:30:55.619 --> 00:30:56.039
Yeah.

395
00:30:56.099 --> 00:30:57.480
Well, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

396
00:30:57.539 --> 00:31:03.779
I think that you're right, that it does things that Doctor Who hasn't done for the last 3 years.

397
00:31:03.839 --> 00:31:13.559
And I think to that end, it is a little bit like the case of Andrazani, which does something the Doctor Who hasn't done for a few years, which is have a really excellent script.

398
00:31:15.119 --> 00:31:16.740
Nathan.

399
00:31:18.839 --> 00:31:21.720
I think that's overstating the case.

400
00:31:21.839 --> 00:31:23.220
It may be overstating the case.

401
00:31:23.279 --> 00:31:25.140
I do understand where you're coming from there.

402
00:31:25.200 --> 00:31:40.799
But it has a bleak script in a way that we haven't quite had before, and we've attempted to do this sort of thing in a shock and resurrection of the Daleks, but suddenly we do it really, really well, and we dump the doctor in it, and he is his shtick doesn't work in that environment.

403
00:31:40.859 --> 00:31:48.539
And I think as well, people talk, obviously, about the invasion and the web of fear being templates for the Pertwi era, and they are.

404
00:31:48.599 --> 00:32:00.180
But in another way, those opening episodes of the war games, but that kind of gritty realism, you know, for Doctor Who. lets not overstate it, is a template for what they then attempt to do with the series.

405
00:32:00.240 --> 00:32:04.380
Terrence knows the endpoint that the doctor's going to be exiled to earth.

406
00:32:04.440 --> 00:32:09.000
And like he's been, what, assistant script editor throughout this season.

407
00:32:09.059 --> 00:32:14.819
And so he's looking back at what's gone before and all of the changes that are about to happen are within here.

408
00:32:14.880 --> 00:32:19.259
Like he's he's really writing it to say, well, we are going in a very different direction.

409
00:32:19.319 --> 00:32:21.000
Yeah, I think that's right.

410
00:32:21.059 --> 00:32:22.079
That level of realism.

411
00:32:22.200 --> 00:32:27.119
I got the impression that he actually, I mean, he never said this, but reading between the lines.

412
00:32:27.180 --> 00:32:30.779
I got the impression he didn't actually think that much of Peter Bryan's and Derek Sherwin.

413
00:32:30.839 --> 00:32:33.119
He said it was very difficult to get decisions out of them.

414
00:32:33.180 --> 00:32:45.119
And so I think he knew he was taking over because they were both off to shoot Paul Temple all around Europe and he knew Barry was taking over and he was going to be the chief guy and I think he's setting up the series as he wants it.

415
00:32:45.180 --> 00:32:46.440
Right, okay.

416
00:32:46.500 --> 00:32:46.859
Okay.

417
00:32:46.920 --> 00:32:48.119
Is Barry on board?

418
00:32:48.180 --> 00:32:51.059
Is he around at that point Barry doesn't come aboard until the Silurians.

419
00:32:51.119 --> 00:32:51.359
Okay.

420
00:32:51.359 --> 00:32:55.740
So basically what you had was Peter Bryant is essentially producer up until the space pirates.

421
00:32:55.799 --> 00:33:02.039
Derek Sherwin takes over as producer for the War Games and spearhead from space and then Barry's on board.

422
00:33:02.099 --> 00:33:02.819
Yeah, okay.

423
00:33:02.819 --> 00:33:05.700
Isn't Derek Sherwin ill or something?

424
00:33:05.700 --> 00:33:07.319
Or why does he only do two?

425
00:33:07.380 --> 00:33:09.599
I thought it was because he was unwell.

426
00:33:09.660 --> 00:33:15.660
No, he wasn't unwell, but he was going to take over the series, but then he got the offer to join Peter Bryant on Paul Temple.

427
00:33:15.720 --> 00:33:18.119
And, you know, that was a colour action series on film.

428
00:33:18.180 --> 00:33:19.500
Obviously something different.

429
00:33:19.559 --> 00:33:25.140
And he wasn't. just completely embarrassed by his performance as parking gone.

430
00:33:25.200 --> 00:33:28.920
Are you talking about performances linked to the production?

431
00:33:29.099 --> 00:33:42.059
Of course, Lady Jennifer is played by Derek Sherwin's wife, and it continues the venerable tradition of having your spouse in the show because Kaftan in Tomb and the Sideman is played by Peter Bryant's wife.

432
00:33:42.119 --> 00:33:49.740
And then, of course, next year, we'll go on to have Petra played by the wife of the director.

433
00:33:49.799 --> 00:33:50.460
Absolutely.

434
00:33:50.519 --> 00:33:53.279
And let's not forget Gary Downey inside that track taker.

435
00:33:54.779 --> 00:33:56.640
No less.

436
00:34:13.320 --> 00:34:28.619
But back to what I was saying, like, he is seeing what's happening, he knows where everything's going, and he's slowly changing, well, not changing, refining the vision of the show to what we know it to be.

437
00:34:28.679 --> 00:34:35.400
It's already happened in the Trouton era at the end of Hartnell, where it's become Doctor Who, and we've discussed that before.

438
00:34:35.460 --> 00:34:40.679
But now it's becoming more the show that the 4 of us in this room grew up with.

439
00:34:40.800 --> 00:34:41.699
Yeah, you know?

440
00:34:41.760 --> 00:34:47.940
I find it really interesting going back to watch this because my memory cheats, like, did I, did I read his novelisation first?

441
00:34:48.000 --> 00:35:02.699
And also, having seen the Purgeware era, like, you know, what the time loads are and all that sort of thing and the master, like, did that sort of colour my vision of when I came into this, you know, I can't put myself in that position of people watching it for the 1st time.

442
00:35:02.820 --> 00:35:09.300
And then suddenly, oh, the Sidrats sound like the TARDIS or this, that must have blown kid's minds in 1968.

443
00:35:09.420 --> 00:35:17.519
Well, just think about that cliffhanger in the time meddler, one of the best cliffhangers in history where they look in and see, oh my god, there's another TARDS.

444
00:35:17.579 --> 00:35:19.260
It's amazing.

445
00:35:19.320 --> 00:35:20.280
Just incredible.

446
00:35:20.340 --> 00:35:25.559
And I do think that those capsules, which get called, the guy pronounces it side rats.

447
00:35:25.619 --> 00:35:31.500
And it only occurs once in dialogue, but let's call them Sidrants, because that's what we've always called them ever since then.

448
00:35:31.559 --> 00:35:40.559
I think they're a genius idea and making them dimensionally transcendental and making them have the TARDIS materialisation noise.

449
00:35:40.619 --> 00:35:43.139
And when their doors open, it has that 60s time.

450
00:35:43.199 --> 00:35:44.639
Yeah, yeah, it's genius.

451
00:35:44.699 --> 00:35:46.139
And it does have atmosphere.

452
00:35:46.199 --> 00:35:52.019
It's not quite the TARDIS control room atmosphere, but there is like a sound associated with being inside.

453
00:35:52.139 --> 00:35:57.539
Then when you get back to the Time Lots home planet, they're there as well. the same machine.

454
00:35:57.599 --> 00:35:59.820
So it's very definitely poor copies of the original.

455
00:35:59.880 --> 00:36:01.019
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

456
00:36:01.079 --> 00:36:08.340
I mean, let's talk about how all of that stuff gets gradually ceded into the program.

457
00:36:08.400 --> 00:36:22.679
The one thing that I noticed this time is that both, I think definitely Zoe and maybe Jamie as well notice how capable the doctor is of operating the technology here, and that's quite early.

458
00:36:22.739 --> 00:36:25.800
And they note it, and the doctor won't confirm it.

459
00:36:25.860 --> 00:36:30.059
No, he is clearly aware. knows what the problem is.

460
00:36:30.119 --> 00:36:31.559
It's very show don't tell.

461
00:36:31.619 --> 00:36:32.699
Yeah, yeah.

462
00:36:32.760 --> 00:36:34.019
It's great.

463
00:36:34.079 --> 00:36:37.500
Like, it's, it's really well seated throughout the episode.

464
00:36:37.619 --> 00:36:43.440
In fact, you'll have things like the doctor mucking around with the control panel inside the, let's call it a side rat.

465
00:36:43.920 --> 00:36:49.260
I just love his fucking around with those magnets and... so great.

466
00:36:49.320 --> 00:36:51.119
And here, and here, and here.

467
00:36:51.179 --> 00:36:52.679
The cheap scientist says.

468
00:36:52.739 --> 00:36:56.219
But Jamie says to him, it's just like potatoes.

469
00:36:56.219 --> 00:36:57.360
And he doesn't respond.

470
00:36:57.420 --> 00:36:58.679
No, yeah, yeah, yeah.

471
00:36:58.739 --> 00:37:08.219
And then the other thing, which I think we did mention in our flight through Entirety episode, is that moment where the war chief recognises the doctor.

472
00:37:08.340 --> 00:37:11.099
And it plays into that desperation thing.

473
00:37:11.159 --> 00:37:15.480
We've never seen Troughton quite so panicked as when he screams at Zoe to run.

474
00:37:15.539 --> 00:37:16.980
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

475
00:37:17.039 --> 00:37:18.719
Like, that's incredible as well.

476
00:37:18.780 --> 00:37:19.980
That's a huge moment.

477
00:37:20.039 --> 00:37:26.880
And we forget that because, you know, he's running into Asmail or Christ knows who. you know, like every other. story.

478
00:37:28.739 --> 00:37:32.639
So that's astounding at the time, isn't it?

479
00:37:32.699 --> 00:37:36.300
And so it does become clear that something's going on.

480
00:37:36.360 --> 00:37:39.360
We get the time lords mentioned, are they mentioned in eight?

481
00:37:39.420 --> 00:37:40.920
No, before that, possibly.

482
00:37:41.039 --> 00:37:43.860
In fact, I think the chief scientist is the 1st person to mention them.

483
00:37:43.980 --> 00:37:45.239
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

484
00:37:45.300 --> 00:37:47.820
Yeah, I mean, that's quite incredible.

485
00:37:47.880 --> 00:37:53.519
And it does up the stakes to a point where, like, how do you feel about the Cliffhanger episode?

486
00:37:53.579 --> 00:37:57.599
I guess it's a cliffhanger episode eight, isn't it?

487
00:37:57.659 --> 00:38:03.179
Where the doctor betrays the resistance leaders to the war chief or the security chief.

488
00:38:03.239 --> 00:38:05.460
Well, see, you never quite believe that in Doc 2.

489
00:38:05.579 --> 00:38:11.460
When you get an epic like this, where things are going off the tracks and you're not quite sure where all this is going, who knows?

490
00:38:11.519 --> 00:38:13.019
Yeah, that's exactly right.

491
00:38:13.079 --> 00:38:14.280
I think that that's it.

492
00:38:14.340 --> 00:38:25.380
And I think also that even if we don't buy it, the doctor pretending to betray his friends is enough of a departure from his usual behaviour to be a shock.

493
00:38:25.440 --> 00:38:32.219
So even if you are aware that he's just playing for time, why is he doing this to them, it seems so unusual.

494
00:38:32.280 --> 00:38:34.320
So that's amazing.

495
00:38:34.380 --> 00:38:40.739
Like, I think that the time lords, like the scale of this threat is like, nothing that we've ever seen before.

496
00:38:40.800 --> 00:38:42.480
The shadow of the time rules.

497
00:38:42.539 --> 00:38:45.179
Yeah, is really there in those last episodes.

498
00:38:45.239 --> 00:38:47.159
Like you just feel it.

499
00:38:47.219 --> 00:38:57.480
And like, as you mentioned earlier, that whole the wind and and just them trying to get away and oh, even when he builds his little box thing to send that.

500
00:38:57.539 --> 00:39:00.239
There's something otherworldly about it.

501
00:39:01.079 --> 00:39:03.780
Yeah, it's just...

502
00:39:03.780 --> 00:39:08.159
They use force fields and they dematerialise people so that they've never existed.

503
00:39:08.280 --> 00:39:11.280
It's these weird ultra powerful things. like gods in Star Trek.

504
00:39:11.340 --> 00:39:12.119
Yeah, yeah.

505
00:39:12.179 --> 00:39:17.699
But you see, if they were truly gods in Star Trek, they would have got the doctor to snog, Rudolph Walker.

506
00:39:17.760 --> 00:39:18.480
They would not.

507
00:39:19.800 --> 00:39:23.820
I'd watch that The mounting panic.

508
00:39:23.880 --> 00:39:38.519
After Josh has put all of his experiences from the last 8 episodes into the box and he's about to send it and then the resistance fighters are having arguments with him and he's trying to get away and you're like, let him go.

509
00:39:39.840 --> 00:39:48.960
And then, and I'm, is it Russell, Russell holding back Arturo Villa, like so that they can get into the side rat and...

510
00:39:49.019 --> 00:39:52.619
And even then, Russell says, we've got to let him go, he's done too much. for us.

511
00:39:52.739 --> 00:39:53.820
Yeah, yeah.

512
00:39:53.880 --> 00:39:57.239
Because the doctor's not the only person who knows the time lords.

513
00:39:57.300 --> 00:39:58.920
Like the warlord knows of them.

514
00:39:58.980 --> 00:40:00.840
The war chief is obviously one of them.

515
00:40:00.900 --> 00:40:09.840
And so they're able there also to sell that sense of panic and stuff to make the time lords as big as they possibly can be.

516
00:40:09.900 --> 00:40:36.780
I have to say that because we've got the space for a whole episode, at the end, to kind of deal with them, and because of how new and strange this is, how absolutely unprecedented it is in the show, I'm nearly at the point where I want to make this my favourite regeneration story, just because I think that the show changes so radically and so strangely.

517
00:40:36.840 --> 00:40:40.500
I think there's a real loss to finding out where the doctor comes from.

518
00:40:40.559 --> 00:40:42.360
I think it's a real problem.

519
00:40:42.420 --> 00:40:48.420
And the decisions made here don't always lead the show into a particularly good place.

520
00:40:48.420 --> 00:40:57.659
But here, it's possible that we introduce the time lords and we don't wreck the show.

521
00:40:57.719 --> 00:41:16.559
We start to actually get a clearer idea of why the doctor is the hero, that he's become during the Trout era and during the late Hartnell era, it gives him something definite to react against, that he's fun and that he cares, and he wants to do good.

522
00:41:16.559 --> 00:41:18.780
It is a peculiar reaction against that doctor.

523
00:41:18.840 --> 00:41:19.800
Yeah, yeah.

524
00:41:19.800 --> 00:41:28.679
If it had been versus the pertwee doctor or the heart nor doctor, you wouldn't have felt the same because he's having his liberty taken away from him and liberty is everything to the 2nd doctor.

525
00:41:28.800 --> 00:41:29.639
Yeah, absolutely.

526
00:41:29.699 --> 00:41:34.019
Railing against sort of authoritarianism and against rules.

527
00:41:34.079 --> 00:41:35.519
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

528
00:41:35.579 --> 00:41:55.679
They're a very good foil to the doctor and I think that dropping him on earth in practice doesn't wreck the show, that the Perto era isn't that vastly different from the eras on either side of it, a little bit more earthbound, but it's still allowed to tell the same kinds of stories, I think.

529
00:41:55.739 --> 00:41:59.400
So it doesn't ruin the show and the show doesn't become the time lord show.

530
00:41:59.519 --> 00:42:01.199
Well, that's what I was going to say.

531
00:42:01.260 --> 00:42:04.500
Like, you mean, they're introduced, but they're only in the one episode.

532
00:42:04.920 --> 00:42:06.719
It's more their presence, right?

533
00:42:06.840 --> 00:42:11.880
And then here we are, boom, we're changing the show, but we're going to stay out of it. not in the next season.

534
00:42:11.940 --> 00:42:14.039
Like, they're not there at all.

535
00:42:14.099 --> 00:42:23.940
And it's only like a year later that suddenly, you know, you've got the master and then Joe knows about them and the doctor sent on missions to try and get him back into space.

536
00:42:24.000 --> 00:42:26.820
But even then, that doesn't last that long.

537
00:42:26.880 --> 00:42:30.960
It's only 15 stories before he gets his exile lifted.

538
00:42:31.019 --> 00:42:31.440
Yeah.

539
00:42:31.440 --> 00:42:34.619
And even then they're still very much in the background.

540
00:42:34.679 --> 00:42:49.320
Like, I'll say this, I think, you know, 80s timeline story is potentially ruin the show, but the way in which Terrence, a script editor uses them throughout the Pertwee era, is actually quite sparingly and for purpose.

541
00:42:49.380 --> 00:42:51.119
And it doesn't ruin the show.

542
00:42:51.179 --> 00:42:55.199
I would agree with that, but I would also say that as ever with these things.

543
00:42:55.260 --> 00:42:57.179
It's not the introduction of something.

544
00:42:57.239 --> 00:42:59.280
It's the way that it's then used going forward.

545
00:42:59.340 --> 00:43:02.940
So Davos is fantastic and amazing.

546
00:43:03.000 --> 00:43:08.519
The fact that they return to that well a number of times dilutes how potent and incredible it is.

547
00:43:08.579 --> 00:43:13.440
If the time lords had just been in the war games, we would think that they were amazing.

548
00:43:13.500 --> 00:43:21.719
It is the fact that they return to them piecemeal throughout the Pertwi era that I think dilutes a lot of their potency within the show.

549
00:43:21.780 --> 00:43:26.820
They are so awesome and so terrifying and they don't become that again.

550
00:43:26.880 --> 00:43:29.159
And when Holmes gets hold of them.

551
00:43:29.219 --> 00:43:43.980
Like, even at the beginning of Tariff, the autons, where you've got the Magrit painting guy, you know, in the bowler hat, being terribly camp and thinking of witty ways of dealing with things, you know, like, that is not the time lords that we see.

552
00:43:44.039 --> 00:43:47.400
That's not Bernard Horsfall at the end of this story.

553
00:43:47.400 --> 00:43:52.139
When Mac Hulk gets hold of them again for the one and only time at the start of colony in space.

554
00:43:52.199 --> 00:43:53.820
It is those time points.

555
00:43:53.880 --> 00:43:54.599
Yeah, yeah.

556
00:43:54.659 --> 00:43:55.739
That is interesting.

557
00:43:55.739 --> 00:43:59.159
Because, I mean, you see them, obviously, in the 3 doctors and they're not all powerful.

558
00:43:59.159 --> 00:44:05.099
And it is different from this and they are never, besides that, quite the same way again.

559
00:44:05.159 --> 00:44:18.599
It's the sort of change from Doctor Who, being a sort of whimsical fantasy series with nearly no premise to being kind of burdened with all of this law.

560
00:44:18.659 --> 00:44:21.900
And I think the show finds a way of coping with it.

561
00:44:21.960 --> 00:44:25.500
It's at its best when it uses that stuff sparingly.

562
00:44:25.559 --> 00:44:29.099
But again, it wouldn't be burdened with the law if it didn't keep returning to it.

563
00:44:29.159 --> 00:44:37.920
If this was just a plot function to explain where the doctor came from and exile him to earth and then we just go forward with the series, that would be fine.

564
00:44:37.980 --> 00:44:46.019
Yeah, I think there's an inexorable gravity, though, to introducing that as a premise that it was more or less inevitable that we would go back there.

565
00:44:46.019 --> 00:44:51.900
And certainly Terrence is introducing it, presumably with some nascent idea that he'll go back there.

566
00:44:51.960 --> 00:44:56.099
Well, it's interesting that you've got the war chief, who knows the doctor and they have a history.

567
00:44:56.159 --> 00:45:05.159
And then, you know, in a year's time, they're going to say, well, let's return to that by introducing the master because it actually works so well here.

568
00:45:05.219 --> 00:45:09.659
I get very disappointed that he gets killed off because he is that good.

569
00:45:09.719 --> 00:45:12.119
And it's clearly the same conception of a character.

570
00:45:12.239 --> 00:45:13.019
Yeah.

571
00:45:13.019 --> 00:45:17.880
He interacts with the doctor, that kind of adversarial, but also kind of collegiate relationship.

572
00:45:17.940 --> 00:45:24.420
To the point where, you know, doesn't the doomsday weapon basically imply that he is the master?

573
00:45:24.480 --> 00:45:27.659
The novelisation of holy in space.

574
00:45:27.719 --> 00:45:32.219
Oh, actually makes the connection that the war chief is the master.

575
00:45:32.219 --> 00:45:39.059
And then obviously also the war games in colour makes that very clear that they've decided he is the master. too clear.

576
00:45:39.599 --> 00:45:43.679
I mean, I think there is sort of something to be said for that.

577
00:45:43.739 --> 00:45:48.840
It is a very similar character, but, you know, there can be more than 2 people on Gallifrey.

578
00:45:49.019 --> 00:45:50.880
It's the dry run.

579
00:45:50.940 --> 00:45:51.719
It's the dry run.

580
00:45:51.780 --> 00:45:56.099
I've looked at the security chief and realised what a great foil for the doctor that is.

581
00:45:56.159 --> 00:46:01.199
And when you get in a great actor like Edward Brayshaw, who is Australian, by the way.

582
00:46:01.260 --> 00:46:04.019
Oh, okay. and who was in the reign of terror.

583
00:46:04.079 --> 00:46:07.139
So just, you know, apropos of nothing.

584
00:46:07.199 --> 00:46:13.860
When you get in a great charismatic actor playing a strong foil for the doctor, that's a regular villain.

585
00:46:13.860 --> 00:46:15.840
That's something you can come back to time and again.

586
00:46:15.900 --> 00:46:18.119
Tell me you look at Peter Butterworth as the monk.

587
00:46:18.179 --> 00:46:22.380
He was brought back and he was a grateful for William Hart.

588
00:46:22.440 --> 00:46:23.760
It's a shame he never appeared again.

589
00:46:23.820 --> 00:46:25.139
Absolutely.

590
00:46:25.199 --> 00:46:31.380
Can we shout out to Philip Maddock, who was making his 2nd appearance in the season...

591
00:46:31.380 --> 00:46:34.739
After his award-winning performance...

592
00:46:34.800 --> 00:46:43.079
He is utterly unrecognisable and totally sensational and just the voice and the mannerisms in the performance.

593
00:46:43.260 --> 00:46:44.579
Quiet authority.

594
00:46:44.760 --> 00:46:48.900
I have recollections of when I 1st watched it, not realising it was actually him.

595
00:46:48.960 --> 00:46:49.500
Right.

596
00:46:49.559 --> 00:46:59.159
See, like, he's Solon, obviously, and I have recently been thinking about Power of Kroll because I sort of posted about that season.

597
00:46:59.219 --> 00:47:00.420
Always.

598
00:47:00.420 --> 00:47:07.980
I think his performance as Fena in Power of Kroll, and the warlord are not that far off.

599
00:47:08.039 --> 00:47:10.019
It's very sort of saturnine.

600
00:47:10.079 --> 00:47:10.739
Yeah, yeah.

601
00:47:10.800 --> 00:47:13.920
It's not the ranty soul on character.

602
00:47:14.039 --> 00:47:16.380
It is that much, much more a strained character.

603
00:47:16.440 --> 00:47:20.579
And there's something about, um, he's terrifying.

604
00:47:20.639 --> 00:47:21.780
He's frightening.

605
00:47:21.840 --> 00:47:25.139
He does that very quiet, very soft voice thing all the way through.

606
00:47:25.199 --> 00:47:27.659
But he's also amused by the doctor as well.

607
00:47:27.719 --> 00:47:30.119
And he can see through the doctor.

608
00:47:30.179 --> 00:47:39.119
There's one point in one of the late episodes where there's a scene where he's just smiling as the doctor lies to him because he doesn't care and he knows that it's false.

609
00:47:39.179 --> 00:47:41.159
You have a silver tongue, doctor.

610
00:47:41.219 --> 00:47:41.579
Yes.

611
00:47:41.579 --> 00:47:43.079
Like your friend, the war tune.

612
00:47:43.139 --> 00:47:43.800
That's it.

613
00:47:43.860 --> 00:47:46.679
You knew that they were that well acquainted.

614
00:47:47.280 --> 00:47:49.679
What a stupid fool you.

615
00:47:50.099 --> 00:47:52.679
I'm sure he got the job somewhere.

616
00:47:53.340 --> 00:47:55.920
Yes, he is amused by things.

617
00:47:55.920 --> 00:48:01.320
And he's also amused to a certain extent by the infighting between security chief and the water.

618
00:48:01.440 --> 00:48:06.840
But to a greater extent, really annoyed by the fact that they just can't get their stuff together.

619
00:48:06.900 --> 00:48:12.239
It's great actually when the boss arrives and they have just completely stuffed everything up.

620
00:48:12.300 --> 00:48:24.239
Everything's like in an absolute kind of disaster, the moment that he arrives and they're having to sort of explain that it's all under control and we're about to fix it any moment now, which is pretty great.

621
00:48:39.300 --> 00:48:43.800
Obviously, this is Terence shaping the show as he wants it to go forward.

622
00:48:43.860 --> 00:48:50.880
What do you think is kind of visible here in his writing that we're going to get to know about over the next few weeks?

623
00:48:50.940 --> 00:48:54.179
We've talked about some of the hallmarks of his writing.

624
00:48:54.239 --> 00:48:59.280
I think the morality, the clear morality and the doctor and the humour that he brings to the character of the doctor.

625
00:48:59.340 --> 00:49:15.119
I also think he is like that other great Terry, Terry Nation in that he has a very, very strong clarity of storytelling and it's because he's grounded in all those things that we've talked about and he likes a straightforward action thriller.

626
00:49:15.179 --> 00:49:19.320
And what he does is bring that aesthetic to the show.

627
00:49:19.380 --> 00:49:28.980
So everything that Terence writes is just a bounding story from start to finish, populated with great characters and with interesting dynamics between them.

628
00:49:29.039 --> 00:49:39.000
He just goes back to those concepts of storytelling and minds them, there are very few stories that they don't make, that they commission as a script and then don't follow through.

629
00:49:39.059 --> 00:49:42.000
And that's because he has that nuts and bolts storytelling.

630
00:49:42.059 --> 00:49:47.699
And so he can work with the writer to get a workable story out of whatever concepts that they have.

631
00:49:47.760 --> 00:50:02.219
And I think you'll see in future in his work on the novelisations, that economical and very precise storytelling where he can actually just put together a story in 110 pages and it's there on the page.

632
00:50:02.280 --> 00:50:07.139
But you'll also see it in the way that he can write to order with things like the 5 doctors.

633
00:50:07.199 --> 00:50:11.820
You just tell him we need this, this, this, and this, and he will turn out something that's perfectly serviceable.

634
00:50:11.880 --> 00:50:13.920
Which Bob Holmes couldn't do in that case.

635
00:50:13.980 --> 00:50:14.639
Correct.

636
00:50:14.699 --> 00:50:19.980
This story is that baptism of fire that I think he learns that in, in a way.

637
00:50:20.039 --> 00:50:22.139
Like this is his testing ground.

638
00:50:22.199 --> 00:50:28.619
He has to do these 10 episodes in 20 days, as you said earlier, Peter, and he proved that he could do it.

639
00:50:28.679 --> 00:50:32.699
And then he learned how to manage that going forward.

640
00:50:32.760 --> 00:50:34.860
Yes, the confidence to structure going on.

641
00:50:34.920 --> 00:50:37.860
Yes, and also never wanting to happen again.

642
00:50:38.219 --> 00:50:44.579
There's not a failure of script per se in the pertwee era.

643
00:50:44.639 --> 00:50:54.059
Like, yes, there's some lesser ones and the greater ones, but nothing of a total disaster that perhaps Eric Saywood's had later on.

644
00:50:54.059 --> 00:50:55.619
Or that we've had before.

645
00:50:55.619 --> 00:50:56.820
Or that we've had before.

646
00:50:56.880 --> 00:51:01.440
His major strength is that he can get to the nuts and bolts of that story.

647
00:51:01.500 --> 00:51:24.239
We can shape the cliffhangers and where are we going all the way through and help writers to focus, but also we've either got a clear monster or a villain and we've got, you know, a second dream sort of person who can be annoying or whatever, but we've also got those relationships with the doctor and his companions and whether it be the brigadier, Liz, Joe, whatever, and the humour that's thrown in there in those situations.

648
00:51:24.300 --> 00:51:25.860
And it's all in here.

649
00:51:25.920 --> 00:51:28.619
I think he doesn't see writing as art.

650
00:51:28.679 --> 00:51:31.559
I think he would call himself a jobbing writer.

651
00:51:31.619 --> 00:51:32.519
It's craft.

652
00:51:32.579 --> 00:51:33.659
It's not art.

653
00:51:33.719 --> 00:51:37.679
It's just getting a really great concept and here, let's not forget.

654
00:51:37.739 --> 00:51:46.619
They have the brilliant concept of different war zones, which means they can basically pad out the story as long as they need to just by going to new wars.

655
00:51:46.679 --> 00:51:50.699
And then knowing what to do with it just to fill the allotted time.

656
00:51:50.760 --> 00:51:52.440
That's not an artist at work.

657
00:51:52.500 --> 00:51:53.400
That's a craftsman.

658
00:51:53.519 --> 00:51:57.840
But I think there's something, you know, like art is nothing without craft, I think.

659
00:51:57.900 --> 00:52:01.260
And I think that this is a story that has something proper to say.

660
00:52:01.320 --> 00:52:09.719
Absolutely. and has something proper to do within the confines of the program that's actually going to impact the program going forward.

661
00:52:09.780 --> 00:52:10.980
And that's a really good point.

662
00:52:11.039 --> 00:52:11.880
It has something to say.

663
00:52:11.940 --> 00:52:15.119
And not every perjury story is going to have something to say, but a lot of them do.

664
00:52:15.179 --> 00:52:16.559
Yeah, yeah, yeah. absolutely.

665
00:52:16.619 --> 00:52:39.780
And whether it's be about pollution or minor strikes or whatever, things that we saw on television as kids of being of our time, but we're actually like, in my head, like 5 or 6 years ahead of what was actually happening. is these elements of ethics and empathy that I don't think the program has properly mined before, which become staples of the show during the Pertwei era.

666
00:52:39.840 --> 00:52:42.179
And I think that's Terence.

667
00:52:42.239 --> 00:52:51.119
Barry gets the credit for a lot of kind of, you know, the ecological standpoints and bringing religion and ideas of religion to the program.

668
00:52:51.179 --> 00:52:55.920
And I think he does, but Terrence is the one who can make stories about them.

669
00:52:55.980 --> 00:52:57.480
Yes, he makes it happen.

670
00:52:57.539 --> 00:53:00.780
And he can see that they're essential to society.

671
00:53:00.840 --> 00:53:10.079
I took last season when we were looking at the Colin Baker era and I said that season 22 was the moment where I felt I was now seeing through the program.

672
00:53:10.139 --> 00:53:20.820
And I think what is happening there is that Terrence is so good at a Doctor Who that consists of captures and escapes of fooling people.

673
00:53:20.880 --> 00:53:29.219
He's so good at making a plot out of those where things happen and things have momentum and lead somewhere.

674
00:53:29.280 --> 00:53:38.219
You know here, this is the story of this emerging resistance that rises up and eventually infiltrates the base.

675
00:53:38.280 --> 00:53:43.079
It's going somewhere and all of the incidental action leads up to it.

676
00:53:43.139 --> 00:53:49.619
It's very easy to write the captures and escapes and fail to get them to do anything.

677
00:53:49.679 --> 00:54:00.179
And I think that perhaps that ability kind of drops off a bit after Terence and and then after him kind of homes leave the program.

678
00:54:00.239 --> 00:54:09.659
I think Terence, as a script writer, his long received wisdom reputation among fans as a writer is almost entirely built on the horror of Fang Rock.

679
00:54:09.719 --> 00:54:13.619
Yeah. and that is the acme of approach.

680
00:54:13.679 --> 00:54:16.739
But I would argue that it should actually be built on this.

681
00:54:16.800 --> 00:54:17.699
Yeah, okay.

682
00:54:17.760 --> 00:54:18.539
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

683
00:54:30.599 --> 00:54:32.099
The exit of the companions.

684
00:54:32.219 --> 00:54:38.400
That is really quite heartbreaking to me, and the fact that they're willing to go there as well.

685
00:54:38.460 --> 00:54:39.840
It's really moving, isn't it?

686
00:54:39.900 --> 00:54:40.980
It's really, really well done.

687
00:54:41.039 --> 00:54:44.940
And the fact that Jamie's had so much character work and will only remember that 1st adventure.

688
00:54:45.000 --> 00:54:52.079
I mean, yes, for Zoe as well, but particularly that, I was just shattered, like reading about it or knowing about it.

689
00:54:52.139 --> 00:54:53.940
And like, he's prepared to go there?

690
00:54:54.000 --> 00:54:55.440
Like that's a real consequence.

691
00:54:55.500 --> 00:54:57.360
It really lands for us.

692
00:54:57.360 --> 00:55:05.159
And I said this, I think, in Journey's end, because we're Doctor Who fans and we love Doctor Who and watching Doctor Who and remembering Doctor Who.

693
00:55:05.219 --> 00:55:15.480
The idea that you wouldn't remember all of those stories, you know, that you had been in, that would be wiped out, that lands particularly for us.

694
00:55:15.539 --> 00:55:18.960
And just the resignation of the doctor.

695
00:55:19.019 --> 00:55:22.079
Like, you almost get the sense that there's that little escape.

696
00:55:22.139 --> 00:55:26.039
You know, there's that little moment where they escape. dragged into it by Jamie and Zoe.

697
00:55:26.099 --> 00:55:28.440
And he does it for them because he loves them.

698
00:55:28.440 --> 00:55:28.920
Exactly right.

699
00:55:28.980 --> 00:55:30.960
He knows there's no escaping.

700
00:55:31.019 --> 00:55:32.579
Oh one last little adventure.

701
00:55:32.639 --> 00:55:33.780
So sweet.

702
00:55:33.840 --> 00:55:35.639
That's exactly what I think is happening there.

703
00:55:35.699 --> 00:55:36.480
It's great.

704
00:55:36.960 --> 00:55:45.119
I was in tears watching the end of that episode because you've known these characters like Jamie, you've known for his entire run, basically.

705
00:55:45.179 --> 00:55:52.380
And it's basically that's Jamie's entire adult life, in a way, up until this point, is being wiped away.

706
00:55:52.440 --> 00:56:00.239
But also, too, is Zoe going back to the wheel in space and they could have just had her wherever, but taking the time to do that, right?

707
00:56:00.300 --> 00:56:02.400
That get back, Gemma, Gemma.

708
00:56:02.460 --> 00:56:09.599
It's little touches like that going forward that, you know, also Terrence influences, really.

709
00:56:09.659 --> 00:56:13.440
I mean, that's the sort of thing that you're doing in the Moffit era or in the new series, isn't it?

710
00:56:13.500 --> 00:56:15.840
You would remount something and bring someone back.

711
00:56:15.900 --> 00:56:21.780
You know, you'll bring Vincent Van Koch back for the finale for the season finale or something.

712
00:56:21.840 --> 00:56:24.360
I mean, that's what makes it a celebration of the year as well.

713
00:56:24.420 --> 00:56:26.699
Captain the ship in Curse of the Blacksport.

714
00:56:26.760 --> 00:56:27.719
Well, yeah, yeah, yeah.

715
00:56:27.780 --> 00:56:33.420
And we get the shots of all of the big rubber monsters of the era celebrating.

716
00:56:33.420 --> 00:56:36.360
The quarks, the terrifying quarks that we were trying to make happen.

717
00:56:37.079 --> 00:56:41.340
We could only go with season 6, some sort of contractual thing.

718
00:56:41.400 --> 00:56:43.019
But I mean, that was all good.

719
00:56:43.019 --> 00:56:43.980
Where were the croton?

720
00:56:44.039 --> 00:56:45.480
Yeah, where were the crotons?

721
00:56:45.539 --> 00:56:46.860
But all of that stuff was really great.

722
00:56:46.920 --> 00:56:48.539
It's like a proper celebration of the era.

723
00:56:48.599 --> 00:56:54.179
It really, really properly does do what a regeneration story will kind of go on to do.

724
00:56:54.239 --> 00:56:55.500
And the next one doesn't do.

725
00:56:55.559 --> 00:57:01.980
And what a modern finale does, which explains why new series fans are so partial to the ball games.

726
00:57:02.039 --> 00:57:07.079
It's also, I think, just, again, we can't sing Terence's praises enough.

727
00:57:07.139 --> 00:57:09.239
He doesn't get enough credit for these things.

728
00:57:09.300 --> 00:57:12.119
The cyclical nature of the storytelling.

729
00:57:12.179 --> 00:57:23.280
So not only do you have Jamie forgetting everything's happening, going back and facing a red coat and attacking him, that mirrors what happens in episode 2 where the red coat comes into the cell.

730
00:57:23.340 --> 00:57:31.739
And Jamie, with everything that he's learned from the doctor, approaches this redcoat with kindness and empathy to try to build a bridge with him.

731
00:57:31.739 --> 00:57:39.119
Same thing with the trial at the end where the doctor is just basically facing his own people who've made up their minds.

732
00:57:39.179 --> 00:57:43.199
Nothing he's going to say will influence that is just like the trial in the 1st episode.

733
00:57:43.260 --> 00:57:44.219
Yeah, yeah.

734
00:57:44.219 --> 00:57:47.579
You know, Terrence does not get enough credit for the cleverness of this stuff.

735
00:57:47.639 --> 00:57:52.739
I actually think something he says does land in the trial because I think they are convinced.

736
00:57:52.800 --> 00:57:59.940
You know, they say we're convinced that you still have a role to play in fighting evil and that's not something that we time lords do.

737
00:58:00.000 --> 00:58:01.800
And the doctor kind of gets.

738
00:58:01.860 --> 00:58:13.920
I mean, you know, like these people with godlike power on the doctor's one of them, but he's this little kind of scruffy person. you know, sort of shambolic kind of scraped through with 51%.

739
00:58:13.980 --> 00:58:18.539
Yeah, yeah. that's been sort of cast out of this race of godlike entities.

740
00:58:18.599 --> 00:58:25.199
That's an amazing, an amazing insight into his character now, and I don't think it ruins it in any way.

741
00:58:25.260 --> 00:58:26.039
It's great.

742
00:58:26.099 --> 00:58:31.739
And also having like trout and swirling head, body thing like fake. making me giddy.

743
00:58:31.800 --> 00:58:32.400
Yeah.

744
00:58:32.400 --> 00:58:38.039
But we don't have a definitive sort of here's the next person, which is very unique in Classic Who.

745
00:58:38.099 --> 00:58:40.139
Yeah, because we had already been cast.

746
00:58:40.199 --> 00:58:42.360
Oh, is this 3 weeks before?

747
00:58:42.420 --> 00:58:45.960
They should have had him change into Jacqueline Hill.

748
00:59:18.480 --> 00:59:20.880
Well, that's all the time we have for this week.

749
00:59:20.940 --> 00:59:22.079
We'll be back next week.

750
00:59:22.139 --> 00:59:32.159
Skipping over Terence's tenure as Doctor Who's group editor to discuss his first solo writing credit on the show, Tom Baker's debut story, Robot.

751
00:59:32.219 --> 00:59:50.099
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts and you can keep up with us on our website, 500yearDiary.com, where you'll find our social media links, as well as links to all of our other podcasts, including our other Doctor Who podcasts, flight through entirety, and the 2nd great and bountiful Human Empire.

752
00:59:50.579 --> 00:59:58.320
Until next time, remember that you don't actually have to do what your manager tells you to do unless they've got their monocle on.

753
00:59:58.380 --> 01:00:00.960
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

754
01:00:01.019 --> 01:00:02.340
Ta-ta.

755
01:00:02.400 --> 01:00:03.119
See you soon.

756
01:00:03.179 --> 01:00:03.719
Good night.

757
01:00:13.679 --> 01:00:19.800
That was 500 Year Diary, starring Todd Bealby, Nathan Bottomley, Peter Griffith, and James Selwood.

758
01:00:19.860 --> 01:00:22.139
The theme was composed by Cameron Lamb.

759
01:00:22.199 --> 01:00:29.219
This episode, Boys Own Cliffhangers, was recorded on the 2nd of November 2025 and released on the 23rd of November.

760
01:00:32.639 --> 01:00:48.360
The fact that World War I is the most recent war in the wargames lends more evidence to my theory that this story takes place on the 8th of December, 1926, which is also the date that the unicorn and the wasp is set, along with the savages, the web planet, and Galaxy 4.

761
01:00:48.599 --> 01:00:51.119
Ask Andrew Pixley if you don't believe me.

762
01:01:00.179 --> 01:01:01.679
What do you think?

763
01:01:01.739 --> 01:01:03.900
We one hour and seven minutes in, I think.

764
01:01:04.019 --> 01:01:06.000
I'd like to talk about James Brie, quite frankly.

765
01:01:06.059 --> 01:01:08.219
I would say, hang on.

766
01:01:08.280 --> 01:01:10.739
Well, just before we talk about it, James B. one more thing.

767
01:01:10.800 --> 01:01:11.219
Okay.

768
01:01:11.280 --> 01:01:13.559
Also, let's not forget.

769
01:01:13.619 --> 01:01:15.659
Terence is incredibly bloodthirsty.

770
01:01:15.840 --> 01:01:19.380
And this story is incredibly bloodthirsty.

771
01:01:19.440 --> 01:01:26.880
Not only would sort of the enormous numbers of deaths that happen off screen, but the enormous numbers of deaths on screen.

772
01:01:26.940 --> 01:01:29.460
People are gunned down continuously.

773
01:01:29.460 --> 01:01:30.960
That's very Terence.

774
01:01:31.019 --> 01:01:33.239
So this is where you like it, Todd.

775
01:01:33.300 --> 01:01:34.860
Of course.

776
01:01:35.400 --> 01:01:38.280
But there's, you know, people survive as well.

777
01:01:38.340 --> 01:01:41.579
It's not everybody's killed, but we need to talk about James Bray.

778
01:01:41.639 --> 01:01:42.840
I think we do too.

779
01:01:45.059 --> 01:01:47.099
What glowing terms.

780
01:01:47.159 --> 01:01:49.860
What a stupid fool, you are.

781
01:01:49.860 --> 01:01:51.300
I think he's superb.

782
01:01:52.139 --> 01:01:59.099
I think canonically he is somehow he's the same person as the keeper of the Matrix.

783
01:01:59.159 --> 01:02:01.920
I haven't quite worked out. he's also the same person as you.

784
01:02:01.980 --> 01:02:06.420
You've had all conversation between us recorded.

785
01:02:08.940 --> 01:02:12.000
I mean, it's such a great performance.

786
01:02:12.059 --> 01:02:20.159
So you've got these 3 very, very different performances. among those, the 3 lead villains.

787
01:02:20.219 --> 01:02:24.300
And, and, like, James Brady, I don't think is failing.

788
01:02:24.360 --> 01:02:25.619
Like I don't think he's nothing.

789
01:02:25.679 --> 01:02:29.039
He's, you know, he's, I think he's setting out to do that.

790
01:02:29.280 --> 01:02:39.780
And he's introducing the weird over-annunciation thing that Edward Brayshaw then picks up on and delivers some of as the war chief.

791
01:02:39.840 --> 01:02:43.500
And like, this is a planet of people wearing glasses. isn't it?

792
01:02:43.559 --> 01:02:47.159
Like the planet of evil people wearing glasses, like me.

793
01:02:47.219 --> 01:02:54.360
He's obviously training, like, like, um, um, Smythe, Fon Worth or whatever his name is.

794
01:02:54.420 --> 01:02:59.099
Yeah, and a lesser story, Smythe would be the amazing head villain piece.

795
01:02:59.159 --> 01:03:01.199
He's got 3 brilliant villains above it.

796
01:03:01.260 --> 01:03:06.420
It's interesting that you've got those minor villains within the walls from white, and then you go up a notch.

797
01:03:06.480 --> 01:03:07.559
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

798
01:03:07.619 --> 01:03:08.460
Amazing.

799
01:03:08.519 --> 01:03:21.360
I have to say the 1st time I ever encountered the only time I've ever encountered James Bre was at a convention in Southampton in 1995 and I walked into the room and the hall was filled with children.

800
01:03:21.360 --> 01:03:23.760
And James Bre was up on the stage.

801
01:03:23.820 --> 01:03:28.739
I walked in, all these adoring children on the calculator just to hear him say, size queen.

802
01:03:29.099 --> 01:03:36.300
I thought you would have walked in and he would have said, what a stupid fool you are.

803
01:03:36.840 --> 01:03:39.239
But no, oh, James Bree.

804
01:03:39.300 --> 01:03:48.780
I mean, he's just he's fundamentally classic Doctor Who for me, because not only do you have him being amazing in this story, but you also have him in full circle.

805
01:03:48.840 --> 01:03:51.659
I have seen the system files.

806
01:03:51.719 --> 01:03:53.159
He's wonderful.

807
01:03:53.219 --> 01:03:54.420
Also have him.

808
01:03:54.480 --> 01:03:55.260
And of course.

809
01:03:55.320 --> 01:03:57.059
Trial of a timelord.

810
01:03:57.119 --> 01:03:58.139
The matrix.

811
01:03:58.440 --> 01:04:00.059
Matrix.

812
01:04:00.239 --> 01:04:01.920
It's great.

813
01:04:02.940 --> 01:04:06.420
But under the hands of a lesser director.

814
01:04:06.719 --> 01:04:10.019
That part could have gotten an actor.

815
01:04:10.079 --> 01:04:12.480
The part could have just gotten totally out of control.

816
01:04:12.539 --> 01:04:14.639
No, I mean, it's so memorable.

817
01:04:14.699 --> 01:04:15.599
It's so terrific.

818
01:04:15.659 --> 01:04:29.519
It's such a great counterpoint against the like the warlord when he eventually turns up, but even the war chief, who is much more chill, a little bit more naturalistic, not playing it quite so big, and who therefore thinks that the security chief is an idiot, and he's kind of right.

819
01:04:29.639 --> 01:04:31.500
Look, it just works.

820
01:04:31.559 --> 01:04:32.760
And it's like this story.

821
01:04:32.820 --> 01:04:36.960
Everything. just works The whole universe of the story works.

822
01:04:37.019 --> 01:04:46.199
And I think James Bre is like Peter Miles in that they know exactly how to pinch a Doctor Who performs.

823
01:04:46.260 --> 01:04:47.760
They get it exactly right.

824
01:04:47.880 --> 01:04:49.260
You would not call it naturalistic.

825
01:04:49.320 --> 01:04:51.960
Oh, by any...

826
01:04:51.960 --> 01:04:58.980
But they know exactly where to pitch it, to make it this beautiful piece of work. wonderful.