WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-05-03 at 08:46:24

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to 500 Year Diary, the only

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Doctor Who podcast that stole a portable recorder and a bunch of

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microphones, and went off to criticise the universe.

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The universe is so tiresome.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm James.

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I'm Todd.

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What is your name?

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My name is Peter.

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My name is Peter.

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Well, it's the 19th of April, 1969.

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Tonight sees the broadcast of the 1st episode of a story that will

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change or challenge or cancel the show that we've come to love

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over the past 5.5 years.

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A couple of scripts have fallen through.

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Pat, Wendy, and Fraser are all leaving, and the show is going off

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in a new direction.

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And so Doctor Who script editor, Terence Dix, has come up with a

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solution.

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Collaborating with his mentor, Malcolm Hulk, to write a 10 part

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epic culminating in the introduction of the doctor's people and

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his exile to the planet Earth.

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So what does Terence Dix bring to the program?

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As writer, script editor, novelist, and crazy uncle Terence, and

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what is his legacy?

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Let's start looking for an answer to these questions as we discuss

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the war games.

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Just to get this out of the way, I was born a very, very few hours

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away from the 1st airing of episode 2 of the War Games, so I'm the

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only Trout and Baby here, and it came as a very pleasant surprise

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to me watching it this time round that it's actually pretty

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great.

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That means in Australia, you were probably born around about a

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repeat of the ice warriors.

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Probably, probably.

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I haven't checked actually.

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Let's just start by talking about the production generally before

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we move on to talking about the script and Terence's

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contribution.

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I'll just say that I am mostly in Doctor Who for the monsters.

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And so I have always felt that this was overlong and a bit dull.

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But this time, I just thought it was magnificent.

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Yes, it's magnificent.

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I've always liked this story.

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There are no monsters.

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Like, where's the slither?

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Bring back ter Nation, I say.

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But the whole production, like the World War I setting and the use

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of, didn't they use the sets of another production that?

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I think they did, yeah.

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It just occurred.

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I thought they just taken the rubbish to Brighton and decided to

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film that.

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No, this was a location. previous thing.

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Yes, that's it.

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But the fact that it keeps up the pace all the way through, and

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you're getting new information every few episodes really helps.

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I think I think maybe it kind of sags a little bit around about

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episode five. where we get sort of David Trown and stuff, but

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otherwise I think, yes, it's absolutely amazing.

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And I was careful to watch it an episode at a time.

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And so to have it be this thing that Doctor Who does for 2.5

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months is actually really what's happening and that's kind of

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great.

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I watched it in 25 episode blocks and it was equally good.

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I think there is an all-time best 8 parter in this story.

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And as it is, it's pretty great, but you could probably stand to

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lose, I would say, most of the Civil War segments and maybe

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Archuro Villa, and then it would be absolutely stonkingly good, but

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as it is, it's amazing.

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And I think Doctor Who does Epic so few times in its history, in

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the original series, I think you'd probably count the Daleks

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master plan, for obvious reasons, Legopolis, for the stakes, and

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maybe Genesis of the Daleks, because of what that does as well.

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But this is one of them.

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Not only do you have series changing developments, but its length

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and the scope of the villainy just make it something really

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special.

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And I think that means that its reputation in recent years has

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skyrocketed.

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So if you look at the 3 Doctor Who magazine polls, which have

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looked at every story and ranks them in order.

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It sort of came in in like the 20s in the mighty 200 and 2009.

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But as new fans came aboard and started to watch it, and it

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presses all those buttons with the end of season extravaganza, and

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you know, the epic finale, all that kind of thing, it's risen and

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risen.

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So last time in 2023, even though they didn't print the entire

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rankings, we know what they are, it cracked the top 10 and was by

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far the most popular charting story.

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Wow.

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What did you think, James?

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I loved it.

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I think I loved it as a child.

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But then in the intervening time, fan wisdom kind of intervened

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and I never really went back to it.

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But watching it, watching it now, I was hooked.

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I actually had to eke it out.

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I watched a couple of episodes a day for about for about a week.

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Um, and yeah, it's just, I don't see, I don't see where this is

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boring and over long and a bit tedious came from.

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Yeah, I think maybe I identify different bits.

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Like, I think once Arturo Villa comes along that lifts it a bit

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because now we have an actual purpose.

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Like the resistance is now trying to break into the base.

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And you're also back in the one really good war.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, there's that too.

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Gosh, that's set.

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That whole thing, the 1st World War thing.

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I mean, it's obviously, you know, black out of the fall.

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In lots of ways, you know, there's a chateau and all of that.

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But this is the 1st time Doctor Who's done.

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Recent history, that people living would be watching this and

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identifying with it.

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Every other historical up to this point is further back than

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that.

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Yes.

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Well, there was plenty of people who'd been to Tibet in 1935.

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Don't forget that.

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I mean, I think like, I'm probably jumping ahead a bit, but I

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think that episode one is possibly the best episode, and I think

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that the reason that it's so good is precisely what you identify.

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This is real history and it's real history that's important to the

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viewers.

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And because at this point, Doctor Who can't do the Second World

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War.

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It's too recent and too raw. thought about doing it and then had

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jettisoned the idea.

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Yeah, okay.

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Yeah.

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No, I'm not surprised.

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And so that sort of stands as a proxy.

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I think for the 2nd World War because it's a war in Europe against

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the Germans.

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And suddenly the doctor's shtick doesn't work in this

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environment.

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Like nothing that the doctor does.

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You know, there's the moment where Zoe tries to break him out of

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the prison in episode one and he just ends up immediately facing

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the guy and being.

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Oh, what a good and clever girl.

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Yes.

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Yeah, yeah.

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All of that stuff, you know, none of his talk works, nothing

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works.

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It's it's like Caves of Andrazani.

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It is like a regeneration story.

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None of the doctor's Doctor Who stuff works at all and it

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culminates with him facing a firing squad.

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What I also love about it is we find out as the audience really

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quite early on, there's something else going on.

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I don't think Zoe.

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And then the doctor find out until midway towards the end of

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episode 2 that this isn't just them stuck in the 1st World War.

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But we find out as an audience when Smythe goes into his office

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somewhere in episode one.

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Yeah.

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So we are we are in the know when the main characters are not.

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And that really sort of wrongfoots them for quite a long time

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until she discovers the screen in the office.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Yeah.

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I want to go back to what you were saying there, Nathan.

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There's a feeling of desperation throughout Doctor Who Epics, and

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this is one of them, where things go wrong from the off.

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Now, even though this is 10 episodes, episode one is a belter of

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an episode, we're 3 minutes in.

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They've already met Lieutenant Carstairs, Lady Jennifer, and been

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waylaid by the Germans.

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That's 3 minutes into the 1st episode of a 10 episode story.

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But this doctor is used to fighting lumbering monsters.

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When you take those out, his shtick doesn't work.

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Because against the banality of evil that we have in this story

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against human atrocity and, you know, the situation he's in, but

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also the plan of the warlord people, that's something that he

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isn't equipped to fight.

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And so, you know, he has to look for help.

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But yeah, there's a real feeling of desperation and of growing

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panic in Troughton's performance.

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And I think in episode one where it is mostly just the 1st World

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War.

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And even the thing that we see that James mentioned, where Smythe

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kind of hypnotises the guy.

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He's just doing it with eyeglasses and as he's the way you do it.

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That's it.

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But he's not doing it with a space ray or anything like that, you

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know, it's still kind of period appropriate.

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And of course, that was the kind of power that senior officers

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have that the chain of command has.

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They just tell you what to believe and you have to believe it.

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They tell you what to do and you have to do it. especially in

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World War I, where you still had aristocrats as the officers

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sending basically the working classes cannon fodder.

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That's right.

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That's right.

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And one thing that we will get to is I think that this story is

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surprisingly political, given sort of Terence's kind of stated

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political opinions, in the future, I think that it is very

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strongly anti-war and very interesting when it comes to talking

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about class.

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But you know, I think Terence is surprisingly political.

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Because, you know, even though he had a healthy sense of humour

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about things.

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He once described the Nazis to me as watching incredible gang of

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cooks, which, you know, is fair understatements of what the Nazis

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were.

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I think he actually had a very strongly defined moral centre, and

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one of the hallmarks of his writing, which we will return to, is

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that the doctor has a very strong moral centre.

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So throughout this story, Troughton, who is not, his doctor is not

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given to overstatement, uses words like disgusting, disgraceful to

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talk about the warlord's plans.

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He's really animated about it.

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It's really quite striking.

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And I do think that that 1st World War set and all of that is

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better, you know, that sort of tedious Civil War barn or

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whatever.

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No, no, it sets it up really well, like it's so strong at the

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beginning and that just permeates through those 1st 8 episodes.

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Yeah.

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The other thing too is I was kind of surprised by how quickly we

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were in the base and the base...

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Yeah, the bass is amazingly great.

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Holy crap, it's well designed.

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And you can see why they wanted to do a colorised version because

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it is so kind of pop art and stuff.

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But for me, it's just the perfect black and white television set

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where it has matte surfaces and reflective surfaces that has

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things that are see-through and things that are patterned, things

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that are unbelievably 60s.

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You know, you're kind of getting...

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It's a final flapping around.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Those funny corridors that they go through that aren't really

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corridors.

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They just set up, you know?

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Yeah, all the negative space.

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Just negative space.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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All the Warhol style kind of...

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In space again until full circle.

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And then you get to California and it's quite boring.

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But then you have that weird...

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No, no, no, but by comparison, visually.

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But then you get that wonderful running through the cement

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walkways in the middle of the dry ice with the flapping pieces of

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PVC.

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Yeah, yeah.

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It's like the garden that was out the back of the Draconian place

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in frontier in space.

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I mean, I just think that looks unbelievably great.

252
00:12:39.960 --> 00:12:42.120
And the glasses are of a piece with that.

253
00:12:42.179 --> 00:12:46.559
Like the whole thing is so pop art and so fantastic.

254
00:12:46.620 --> 00:12:48.360
Just unbelievable.

255
00:12:48.419 --> 00:12:51.360
I think, in fact, like, I actually think that this is the best

256
00:12:51.360 --> 00:12:54.179
version of Gamma fray that we ever get at the end of it.

257
00:12:54.240 --> 00:12:55.740
I think it looks really great.

258
00:12:55.799 --> 00:12:58.379
I would have loved to have seen. partial to the 3 doctors.

259
00:12:58.440 --> 00:13:03.480
Yeah, yeah, that is not that is an incredible game show set. ruling

260
00:13:03.480 --> 00:13:05.039
the universe from, isn't it?

261
00:13:05.100 --> 00:13:10.860
With cement, sort of slab walls with the little floaty squares on

262
00:13:10.860 --> 00:13:12.899
the top of little poles.

263
00:13:13.200 --> 00:13:14.039
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

264
00:13:14.159 --> 00:13:15.000
Waving about.

265
00:13:15.059 --> 00:13:18.419
It's unbelievable See, the reason it's so good is the director.

266
00:13:18.480 --> 00:13:23.279
Dave Maloney has a vision for this story and you can see it

267
00:13:23.279 --> 00:13:24.299
throughout the 10 episodes.

268
00:13:24.360 --> 00:13:27.360
These epics only work when you get someone like David Maloney on

269
00:13:27.360 --> 00:13:31.259
this story or Dougie Canfield on the Daleks master plan who can

270
00:13:31.259 --> 00:13:35.820
see from the start to the end and create this entire sweep of a

271
00:13:35.820 --> 00:13:36.179
story.

272
00:13:36.240 --> 00:13:38.639
So the design ethos is incredibly strong.

273
00:13:38.700 --> 00:13:40.799
What else has he directed up to this point?

274
00:13:41.279 --> 00:13:43.259
The crotons?

275
00:13:43.919 --> 00:13:46.320
Well, there's a vision for that.

276
00:13:46.500 --> 00:13:48.600
And the mind dropber.

277
00:13:48.659 --> 00:13:49.620
Yeah, okay.

278
00:13:49.679 --> 00:13:50.700
Well, man, yeah, yeah.

279
00:13:50.759 --> 00:13:51.419
Isn't that funny?

280
00:13:51.480 --> 00:13:55.740
The 2 episodes that we watched here in Australia, the 2 trout and

281
00:13:55.740 --> 00:13:59.580
episodes that we actually got to see on TV at our age, the crotons

282
00:13:59.580 --> 00:14:00.360
in the mind, Robert.

283
00:14:00.419 --> 00:14:01.259
That's pretty incredible.

284
00:14:01.320 --> 00:14:05.279
I also think that the Time Lord Planet is good because it's only

285
00:14:05.279 --> 00:14:05.940
in that one episode.

286
00:14:06.000 --> 00:14:07.080
Yeah, yeah.

287
00:14:07.139 --> 00:14:08.519
Yeah, we're not overdoing it.

288
00:14:08.580 --> 00:14:11.519
But he gets all of those moments right as well.

289
00:14:11.580 --> 00:14:16.500
So that incredible scene in episode nine, and this is vastly aided

290
00:14:16.500 --> 00:14:19.919
by Philip Maddock, of course, where the doctor has made good his

291
00:14:19.919 --> 00:14:22.980
escape, and the warlord just catches himself, and that sound

292
00:14:22.980 --> 00:14:25.799
effect comes in of the wind, and he just says, they're coming.

293
00:14:25.860 --> 00:14:28.679
That's an incredible moment in the drama.

294
00:14:28.740 --> 00:14:31.200
And if that had been overplayed or shot differently.

295
00:14:31.259 --> 00:14:33.960
It wouldn't have had so much impact, but Maloney knows what he's

296
00:14:33.960 --> 00:14:34.080
doing.

297
00:14:34.139 --> 00:14:35.639
He's really good.

298
00:14:35.700 --> 00:14:37.379
I mean, he is really great.

299
00:14:37.620 --> 00:14:41.639
Who would have thought, by the way, that the one director would

300
00:14:41.639 --> 00:14:45.299
direct 2 stories that opened with the doctor and his companions

301
00:14:45.299 --> 00:14:49.799
coming out onto a planetary landscape and having to hide from an

302
00:14:49.799 --> 00:14:51.299
artillery attack?

303
00:14:51.360 --> 00:14:52.980
Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

304
00:14:53.039 --> 00:14:54.779
Same opening to 2 stories?

305
00:14:54.840 --> 00:14:55.860
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

306
00:14:55.919 --> 00:14:59.039
Yeah, I mean, he goes on to be just incredibly reliable.

307
00:14:59.100 --> 00:15:01.500
I don't think we've talked about him enough on FTE.

308
00:15:01.559 --> 00:15:03.299
He's a great director.

309
00:15:13.080 --> 00:15:16.320
The other thing that I think is really striking is just how

310
00:15:16.320 --> 00:15:18.779
incredibly strong the cliffhangers are.

311
00:15:18.840 --> 00:15:21.720
The Cliffhanger to episode one, we've already talked about where

312
00:15:21.720 --> 00:15:24.179
the doctor gets shot, the Cliffhanger of episode 2, where we see

313
00:15:24.179 --> 00:15:25.559
the Romans suddenly.

314
00:15:25.620 --> 00:15:28.860
There's heaps of cliffhangers that involve a development in the

315
00:15:28.860 --> 00:15:32.879
plot rather than peril, like some new exciting thing happening, but

316
00:15:32.879 --> 00:15:35.159
the peril is also really excellent.

317
00:15:35.279 --> 00:15:38.879
And even when it is just peril, they're these wonderful boy zone

318
00:15:38.879 --> 00:15:42.720
cliffhangers, which you just see Terence chortling over like the

319
00:15:42.720 --> 00:15:46.019
walls of the walls kind of closing in on them.

320
00:15:46.080 --> 00:15:47.519
They've just taken that.

321
00:15:47.580 --> 00:15:48.360
Fantastic.

322
00:15:48.419 --> 00:15:50.340
It's really well done, isn't it?

323
00:15:50.399 --> 00:15:53.940
There is a fabulous one where someone's about to be shot and then

324
00:15:53.940 --> 00:15:57.419
someone walks in at the beginning of the next episode and puts a

325
00:15:57.419 --> 00:15:57.960
stop to it.

326
00:15:58.019 --> 00:16:01.980
Terrence was a great fan of Raymond Chandler and those kind of

327
00:16:01.980 --> 00:16:06.419
thrillers, and so he subscribed to that kind of ethos of if the

328
00:16:06.419 --> 00:16:09.600
action slows down, Have a man with a gun walk into the room.

329
00:16:10.799 --> 00:16:14.879
Speaking about the cliffhanger with the Sid rat crushing them.

330
00:16:14.940 --> 00:16:19.500
I love the denim of that, which is just so simple, and boy's own

331
00:16:19.500 --> 00:16:24.059
which is the doctor comes out with a smoke bomb in his hand, drops

332
00:16:24.059 --> 00:16:26.340
it, and then steals the controls and runs back in.

333
00:16:26.399 --> 00:16:29.159
I mean, there are plenty of instances in this story of them

334
00:16:29.159 --> 00:16:31.740
failing to get the thing they want running around a bit and then

335
00:16:31.740 --> 00:16:32.820
coming back to get the thing they want.

336
00:16:32.879 --> 00:16:33.899
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

337
00:16:33.960 --> 00:16:34.860
Which I'm on board for.

338
00:16:34.919 --> 00:16:36.480
That's great There is a little bit of that.

339
00:16:36.539 --> 00:16:40.080
There's the one where we sort of put Zoe into one of the transport

340
00:16:40.080 --> 00:16:43.080
machines and then the doctor goes, oh, no, I have to go back and

341
00:16:43.080 --> 00:16:45.840
get the processing thing and it just seems to be why we're doing

342
00:16:45.840 --> 00:16:46.259
this?

343
00:16:46.379 --> 00:16:49.019
And then they take it away and then the security chief comes and

344
00:16:49.019 --> 00:16:49.799
gets the processing.

345
00:16:49.860 --> 00:16:52.500
Lots of talking urgently in negative space.

346
00:16:52.559 --> 00:16:53.700
Yeah, exactly.

347
00:16:53.820 --> 00:16:58.559
I also think too that there is, and I blame Terrence for this, I

348
00:16:58.559 --> 00:17:01.679
think, because this is going to be a thing going forward.

349
00:17:01.740 --> 00:17:06.900
Terrence is obviously more interested in having women in the show

350
00:17:06.900 --> 00:17:11.700
than either Terry Nation or Bob Holmes, but he's not particularly

351
00:17:11.700 --> 00:17:13.859
interested in having women in the show.

352
00:17:13.859 --> 00:17:19.559
And I am absolutely, still terribly cross that Lady Jennifer only

353
00:17:19.559 --> 00:17:23.640
gets 5 episodes and then we, she just disappears to go off and

354
00:17:23.640 --> 00:17:28.500
look after some union soldiers or something at the end of episode

355
00:17:28.500 --> 00:17:28.920
five.

356
00:17:28.980 --> 00:17:31.980
It's a shame that there's no women in the warlord.

357
00:17:32.339 --> 00:17:34.680
Yeah, you know, that would have been good just to sort of have a

358
00:17:34.680 --> 00:17:37.680
balance, but it is one thing in there that you notice that it's

359
00:17:37.680 --> 00:17:39.240
only Zoe and Lady Jennifer.

360
00:17:39.299 --> 00:17:39.900
Yeah.

361
00:17:39.900 --> 00:17:42.960
But I also think, you know, Terrence is co-writing this with

362
00:17:42.960 --> 00:17:45.539
Malcolm, and I think sometimes that's a good thing to bounce off

363
00:17:45.539 --> 00:17:49.920
ideas and actually, you know, just it just helps hone what is

364
00:17:49.920 --> 00:17:51.000
going down, you know what I mean?

365
00:17:51.059 --> 00:17:54.779
We can't we can't underestimate his contribution to this.

366
00:17:54.839 --> 00:17:58.319
I mean, Terence told me that they had about 20 days to write the

367
00:17:58.319 --> 00:17:59.160
10 episodes.

368
00:17:59.220 --> 00:18:04.799
And he'd met Mac Hulk because Terrence started in copywriting and

369
00:18:04.799 --> 00:18:07.799
one of his friends there got married and was moving out of his

370
00:18:07.799 --> 00:18:10.799
rooms in Hampstead and said to Terrence, do you want these rooms?

371
00:18:10.859 --> 00:18:15.000
Terence said, yes, went along, and Mac Hulk and his great aunt or

372
00:18:15.000 --> 00:18:15.900
something owned the house.

373
00:18:15.960 --> 00:18:19.259
So he got to meet.

374
00:18:19.319 --> 00:18:22.559
We got to meet this strange little balding man, as he described

375
00:18:22.559 --> 00:18:24.299
them, just round and about the place.

376
00:18:24.359 --> 00:18:25.559
They became friends.

377
00:18:25.619 --> 00:18:30.059
They were like Terence and Barry Lett in that their affinity was

378
00:18:30.059 --> 00:18:32.640
very close, but they focussed on different things and they had

379
00:18:32.640 --> 00:18:33.660
different politics.

380
00:18:33.720 --> 00:18:36.299
And so we asked Mac Holt to come on board and help him.

381
00:18:36.359 --> 00:18:39.119
And apparently what they did was they just spent 20 days living

382
00:18:39.119 --> 00:18:43.019
together would get together in the morning, hash some ideas out

383
00:18:43.019 --> 00:18:45.180
for whatever episode they were about to start.

384
00:18:45.240 --> 00:18:47.940
Mac would sit at the typewriter because he was a very fast touch

385
00:18:47.940 --> 00:18:51.000
typist and just commit everything they were talking about to paper

386
00:18:51.000 --> 00:18:53.700
while Terence kind of marched up and down, just chortling to

387
00:18:53.700 --> 00:18:54.839
himself and having these ideas.

388
00:18:54.900 --> 00:18:57.299
So that was basically the way that it worked.

389
00:18:57.359 --> 00:18:59.519
I think this is very strongly Terence.

390
00:18:59.579 --> 00:19:04.799
I think the morality aspect is what we'll come to expect from Mac

391
00:19:04.799 --> 00:19:09.059
Hulk during the Pertwi years, but all of this feels very Terrency

392
00:19:09.059 --> 00:19:09.359
to me.

393
00:19:09.420 --> 00:19:12.539
Because, I mean, it is that thing we identified before about

394
00:19:12.539 --> 00:19:19.140
officers and just normal enlisted man and the class thing and the

395
00:19:19.140 --> 00:19:24.480
way that that gets kind of turned into this thing where all of the

396
00:19:24.480 --> 00:19:30.599
wars in human history are being run by people who have their own

397
00:19:30.599 --> 00:19:36.960
evil agenda, who are tricking the people below them into fighting

398
00:19:36.960 --> 00:19:40.500
for patriotic reasons or other personal. reasons.

399
00:19:40.559 --> 00:19:42.420
Literally using them as pawns.

400
00:19:42.420 --> 00:19:42.900
Exactly.

401
00:19:42.960 --> 00:19:44.099
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

402
00:19:44.160 --> 00:19:46.920
And I think that's really, really striking and much, much more

403
00:19:46.920 --> 00:19:49.319
political than I would normally expect from Terrence.

404
00:19:49.380 --> 00:19:54.359
It does sound like a kind of Marxist reading of things, which it

405
00:19:54.359 --> 00:20:00.240
may actually be from Mac Hulk was, in fact, very, very left wing.

406
00:20:00.299 --> 00:20:02.099
I'm not sure if he was a Marxist or not.

407
00:20:02.160 --> 00:20:05.220
I suspected that he was, but they had some crossover in that in

408
00:20:05.220 --> 00:20:10.259
that Terence had a great aversion to tyranny, authoritarianism.

409
00:20:10.319 --> 00:20:13.380
And that shines through not only in his own writing, but in the

410
00:20:13.380 --> 00:20:14.279
per we era as well.

411
00:20:14.339 --> 00:20:19.500
Just the sheer kind of horror of that court martial in episode one

412
00:20:19.500 --> 00:20:23.759
where it's just clearly everyone's lying and nothing can be done.

413
00:20:23.819 --> 00:20:27.779
And like Zoe is kind of apoplectic, she can't believe that this is

414
00:20:27.779 --> 00:20:28.859
what's going on.

415
00:20:28.920 --> 00:20:29.700
I'm Zoe.

416
00:20:29.759 --> 00:20:31.619
Like, I'm there going, 0 my goodness.

417
00:20:31.680 --> 00:20:33.420
Like, I can't believe what's happening.

418
00:20:33.480 --> 00:20:37.259
And it's, as you said, like, there's just this impending sort of

419
00:20:37.259 --> 00:20:40.859
doom or dread, like, you know, the shtick isn't working.

420
00:20:40.920 --> 00:20:43.799
It's set up right there at the beginning and it just keeps on

421
00:20:43.799 --> 00:20:44.400
flowing.

422
00:20:44.460 --> 00:20:48.539
Episode two, which is probably the 1st episode broadcast into a

423
00:20:48.539 --> 00:20:49.920
world where I'm there.

424
00:20:50.640 --> 00:20:54.420
The shtick starts working again, and I am a little bit

425
00:20:54.420 --> 00:20:57.900
disappointed, but I'm glad that they did what they did in episode

426
00:20:57.900 --> 00:20:58.440
one.

427
00:20:58.500 --> 00:21:01.200
Clearly the doctor, you know, in episode 2 goes to the military

428
00:21:01.200 --> 00:21:04.920
prison and pretends to be some guy and all of his bluster and

429
00:21:04.920 --> 00:21:07.319
normal stuff is working once again.

430
00:21:07.380 --> 00:21:09.240
Until it doesn't, of course.

431
00:21:09.299 --> 00:21:09.839
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

432
00:21:09.900 --> 00:21:12.420
But you see again, building on top of the morality.

433
00:21:12.480 --> 00:21:14.160
I think that's very Terence flavoured.

434
00:21:14.220 --> 00:21:17.160
Terrence's conception of the doctor is someone who bamboozles

435
00:21:17.160 --> 00:21:18.779
their opponents.

436
00:21:18.839 --> 00:21:21.660
And so he gets that shtick like in episode 2 where he pretends to

437
00:21:21.660 --> 00:21:24.059
be the visiting dignitary to the prison.

438
00:21:24.119 --> 00:21:28.500
Also, all of the scenes with the chief scientist on the warlord

439
00:21:28.500 --> 00:21:32.940
planet, where he just every time he meets him, he's tricking him

440
00:21:32.940 --> 00:21:34.680
in some hilarious way.

441
00:21:34.740 --> 00:21:36.720
And so there's a lot of comedy in that.

442
00:21:36.720 --> 00:21:40.140
And you'll see it again and again in stories like Robot and states

443
00:21:40.140 --> 00:21:42.900
him to Kay and particularly the 5 doctors, where the doctor is

444
00:21:42.900 --> 00:21:43.559
hilarious.

445
00:21:43.619 --> 00:21:48.299
And I think that's one of the keys to Doctor Who, is that no

446
00:21:48.299 --> 00:21:52.380
matter what dire situation they're in, there's humour in there.

447
00:21:52.380 --> 00:21:55.799
And that chief scientist, I just laugh my head up every single

448
00:21:55.799 --> 00:21:56.099
time.

449
00:21:56.160 --> 00:22:00.359
Every single time, like they keep coming back to him and he's just

450
00:22:00.359 --> 00:22:02.519
getting tricked and then when he gets put in his machine.

451
00:22:02.579 --> 00:22:05.759
I'm just, leave him on simmer.

452
00:22:05.819 --> 00:22:10.440
That's so great But, you know, like if you had 4 episodes, you

453
00:22:10.440 --> 00:22:12.900
wouldn't have time to develop that character and just have that

454
00:22:12.900 --> 00:22:16.920
bit of comedy running through what is a very dire situation.

455
00:22:16.980 --> 00:22:19.619
And the 3rd tie that the doctor encounters him.

456
00:22:19.680 --> 00:22:22.980
He just comes into frame while the chief scientist sort of looks

457
00:22:22.980 --> 00:22:24.119
up at him slowly.

458
00:22:24.720 --> 00:22:28.200
That's amazing That's Vernon Dobchev, by the way.

459
00:22:28.259 --> 00:22:29.579
He's 91 and still with us.

460
00:22:29.640 --> 00:22:30.480
Oh, wonderful.

461
00:22:30.720 --> 00:22:35.279
And he just looks up at him as he walks in and it's like, hello.

462
00:22:35.519 --> 00:22:37.559
That is fabulous.

463
00:22:37.619 --> 00:22:38.700
He's amazing.

464
00:22:38.759 --> 00:22:41.819
He's also very good in the Blake 7 episode Shadow.

465
00:22:41.880 --> 00:22:43.380
Ah, of course.

466
00:22:43.440 --> 00:22:44.279
Yes.

467
00:22:44.759 --> 00:22:48.960
But this is a case of you're only as strong as your weakest link

468
00:22:48.960 --> 00:22:50.460
you know, and if you cast well.

469
00:22:50.519 --> 00:22:54.599
And the characters are written well, then you know, you're going

470
00:22:54.599 --> 00:22:55.319
to have a good production.

471
00:22:55.380 --> 00:22:58.920
Yeah, I mean, the characters are not very strongly drawn, are

472
00:22:58.920 --> 00:22:59.220
they?

473
00:22:59.339 --> 00:23:02.519
And there's Russell, I think, who ends up being a pretty important

474
00:23:02.519 --> 00:23:05.279
guy, and that's a great performance, and he is pretty good, but I

475
00:23:05.279 --> 00:23:07.740
couldn't tell you anything about him very much as a person.

476
00:23:07.799 --> 00:23:09.299
Love thy neighbour guy is really good.

477
00:23:09.359 --> 00:23:10.019
What's his name?

478
00:23:10.140 --> 00:23:10.980
Rudolph Walker.

479
00:23:11.039 --> 00:23:12.420
He's so hot too.

480
00:23:12.480 --> 00:23:14.220
What an attractive young man he was.

481
00:23:14.279 --> 00:23:16.859
But it goes back to what we're saying about Terence and Boyzone.

482
00:23:16.920 --> 00:23:21.420
He writes characters with broad strokes, but recognisable.

483
00:23:21.480 --> 00:23:25.859
And so anyone who'd read a boy's own manual would know Lieutenant

484
00:23:25.859 --> 00:23:28.140
Carstairs immediately.

485
00:23:28.200 --> 00:23:29.039
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

486
00:23:29.099 --> 00:23:30.839
But isn't that a bit like RTD?

487
00:23:30.900 --> 00:23:34.440
He does broad characters that are recognisable to current

488
00:23:34.440 --> 00:23:37.019
audiences and you get to know them very, very quickly.

489
00:23:37.079 --> 00:23:41.640
And I think in this, like, Terrence is the same thing. these

490
00:23:41.640 --> 00:23:44.279
characters suddenly through the performance and through the broad

491
00:23:44.279 --> 00:23:46.259
strokes suddenly come to life and you recognise them.

492
00:23:46.319 --> 00:23:49.559
Let's think about the guy who runs the military president in

493
00:23:49.559 --> 00:23:53.640
episode 2, who likes boring people about, or, you know, there's a

494
00:23:53.640 --> 00:23:55.740
there's something that happens in the chateau as well, where

495
00:23:55.740 --> 00:23:59.460
someone's talking about the arrival of supplies or something like

496
00:23:59.460 --> 00:23:59.700
that.

497
00:23:59.759 --> 00:24:01.140
Like someone's boring someone.

498
00:24:01.200 --> 00:24:03.359
Boring lady Jennifer.

499
00:24:03.420 --> 00:24:05.700
Please tell me more about the outposts.

500
00:24:05.759 --> 00:24:08.220
Tell me more about the 100 shovels.

501
00:24:08.279 --> 00:24:09.180
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

502
00:24:09.240 --> 00:24:10.559
Wonderful shovels, of course.

503
00:24:10.619 --> 00:24:11.940
Just absolute genius.

504
00:24:12.000 --> 00:24:12.779
So, so good.

505
00:24:12.900 --> 00:24:16.380
And of course, being Terrence, you have to get the moment where as

506
00:24:16.380 --> 00:24:17.220
he leaves.

507
00:24:17.339 --> 00:24:20.940
He says, not often people take an interest in this kind of thing.

508
00:24:21.000 --> 00:24:22.440
It's nice to meet someone who does.

509
00:24:22.859 --> 00:24:24.480
So good.

510
00:24:24.539 --> 00:24:26.039
Just so tremendous.

511
00:24:26.099 --> 00:24:27.240
Just terrific style.

512
00:24:27.299 --> 00:24:29.759
All of those walk on characters are amazing, including the one who

513
00:24:29.759 --> 00:24:32.940
keeps almost coming across them, blowing up the door to the safe

514
00:24:32.940 --> 00:24:34.619
and they can't get rid of.

515
00:24:34.680 --> 00:24:36.480
So you just get these walk-ons who are amazing.

516
00:24:36.539 --> 00:24:42.059
Also, the thing that makes this story fill its length is not that

517
00:24:42.059 --> 00:24:46.559
there's one brilliant villain, but 3 brilliant villains all

518
00:24:46.559 --> 00:24:47.880
bouncing off each other.

519
00:24:47.940 --> 00:24:50.700
There's endless scenes with just the villains and it's amazing.

520
00:24:50.759 --> 00:24:55.380
Yeah, I mean, I think the soldiers and things, because it goes on

521
00:24:55.380 --> 00:25:00.779
for a bunch of time, even the very small parts, they get a lot to

522
00:25:00.779 --> 00:25:04.380
do, because you've got 10 episodes or 9 episodes of those soldiers

523
00:25:04.380 --> 00:25:05.579
we do get to know them quite well.

524
00:25:05.640 --> 00:25:10.140
I do want to shout out to Harper because Harper's our 1st union

525
00:25:10.140 --> 00:25:13.680
soldier that we meet and he's black, which I think, you know

526
00:25:13.680 --> 00:25:17.819
that's not a given for Doctor Who in this period.

527
00:25:17.880 --> 00:25:19.799
And he's smart.

528
00:25:19.859 --> 00:25:22.859
He's the 1st person that we properly meet, isn't he that's part of

529
00:25:22.859 --> 00:25:25.680
the resistance. knows what's going on.

530
00:25:25.740 --> 00:25:27.839
And I think that that resistance thing.

531
00:25:27.900 --> 00:25:32.880
That element where people start to twig to what's really going on

532
00:25:32.880 --> 00:25:36.779
that these wars aren't the wars that they signed up for, that

533
00:25:36.779 --> 00:25:40.140
they're not fighting for what they thought they were fighting.

534
00:25:40.200 --> 00:25:43.920
Like again, I think that that's an incredibly strong idea.

535
00:25:43.980 --> 00:25:49.380
And the fact that their knowledge of this enables them to

536
00:25:49.380 --> 00:25:55.619
transcend the space restrictions between the various time zones.

537
00:25:56.160 --> 00:25:59.759
It might be the very 1st instance in Doctor of a perception

538
00:25:59.759 --> 00:26:00.180
filter.

539
00:26:00.240 --> 00:26:01.319
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

540
00:26:01.380 --> 00:26:04.619
I can't see the screen until I can see it until I focus on it.

541
00:26:04.680 --> 00:26:05.400
That's right.

542
00:26:05.460 --> 00:26:05.819
That's right.

543
00:26:05.880 --> 00:26:06.480
It's so good.

544
00:26:06.539 --> 00:26:08.700
And that setting as well.

545
00:26:08.759 --> 00:26:11.700
We've had nothing at all like that setting, particularly not in

546
00:26:11.700 --> 00:26:16.019
this era where we're in the base and rubber monsters are attacking

547
00:26:16.019 --> 00:26:20.579
us and that's basically the premise of a whole heap of the era.

548
00:26:20.640 --> 00:26:22.680
This is completely different from that.

549
00:26:22.740 --> 00:26:27.599
We've never had a planet or an environment as weird and artificial

550
00:26:27.599 --> 00:26:28.500
as this.

551
00:26:28.559 --> 00:26:33.240
You know, this is, you know, it's not Doctor Who, on the planet in

552
00:26:33.240 --> 00:26:33.779
space.

553
00:26:33.839 --> 00:26:35.400
Like there's a home planet.

554
00:26:35.460 --> 00:26:36.599
We don't know what it's called.

555
00:26:36.660 --> 00:26:37.619
There's this planet.

556
00:26:37.680 --> 00:26:38.579
We don't know what it's called.

557
00:26:38.640 --> 00:26:43.380
It's divided into these zones that are separated by some kind of

558
00:26:43.380 --> 00:26:46.140
time barrier, which seems like fog or whatever.

559
00:26:46.200 --> 00:26:50.099
It's an absolutely weird and fantastical environment of a kind

560
00:26:50.099 --> 00:26:50.940
that we haven't seen.

561
00:26:51.059 --> 00:26:53.640
And Terence actually returns to that idea with the death zone.

562
00:26:53.700 --> 00:26:56.700
Five doctors, the way that it's sort of segmented.

563
00:26:56.759 --> 00:27:01.680
What I find really odd, though, is why do we have the time concept

564
00:27:01.680 --> 00:27:02.400
in there?

565
00:27:02.460 --> 00:27:06.900
Sure, we've got time travel to get these various different groups

566
00:27:06.900 --> 00:27:10.980
of soldiers from Earth, but why is the planet divided into time

567
00:27:10.980 --> 00:27:11.460
zones?

568
00:27:11.519 --> 00:27:13.019
I don't think it is.

569
00:27:13.079 --> 00:27:15.720
I think they call them time barriers when they think that they're

570
00:27:15.720 --> 00:27:18.779
travelling in time, but what they are is just a perception barrier

571
00:27:18.779 --> 00:27:20.400
so that you can't get between the different segments.

572
00:27:20.460 --> 00:27:23.160
And I think we need to introduce the idea of time.

573
00:27:23.220 --> 00:27:26.460
We're going to talk a little bit about how, you know, the big

574
00:27:26.460 --> 00:27:30.839
reveal about who the doctor's people are, how that's handled, but

575
00:27:30.839 --> 00:27:33.839
it is seeded quite early, I think.

576
00:27:33.900 --> 00:27:37.920
Terence and Malcolm Hulk know where this story is going.

577
00:27:37.980 --> 00:27:40.980
What they're not doing really is making it up as they go along.

578
00:27:41.039 --> 00:27:42.599
They know the endpoint, I think.

579
00:27:42.660 --> 00:27:45.059
Oh, I think they got the entire story in mind.

580
00:27:45.119 --> 00:27:47.519
They just don't quite know how many episodes are going to go in

581
00:27:47.519 --> 00:27:48.059
between.

582
00:27:48.119 --> 00:27:48.539
That's right.

583
00:27:48.539 --> 00:27:49.140
That's right.

584
00:27:49.559 --> 00:27:50.160
Yeah.

585
00:27:50.220 --> 00:27:50.519
Yeah.

586
00:27:50.579 --> 00:27:54.720
But there's a very clear endpoint, and I do think that they do a

587
00:27:54.720 --> 00:27:58.500
setup that requires someone with time travel technology to be

588
00:27:58.500 --> 00:28:03.299
involved in running it so that... right.

589
00:28:03.359 --> 00:28:06.539
I mean, yes, you know, you can see why those plot reasons are

590
00:28:06.539 --> 00:28:06.720
there.

591
00:28:06.839 --> 00:28:11.460
I also think that the warlords are sort of set up as an antithesis

592
00:28:11.460 --> 00:28:16.799
at the time, like they're an elemental force almost in a way, and

593
00:28:16.799 --> 00:28:19.380
the time lords are definitely an elemental force in this story.

594
00:28:19.440 --> 00:28:23.039
They have so much control over time and the universe and

595
00:28:23.039 --> 00:28:23.759
everything.

596
00:28:23.819 --> 00:28:25.859
I mean, it's even in the name, the warlord.

597
00:28:25.920 --> 00:28:26.700
Yeah, yeah.

598
00:28:26.759 --> 00:28:28.619
You've got the time lords and the warlord.

599
00:28:28.680 --> 00:28:30.960
And Warlord is clever, isn't it?

600
00:28:31.019 --> 00:28:32.160
Because it's just a normal word.

601
00:28:32.220 --> 00:28:36.420
Like a warlord is a thing, but he's the warlord, 2 words, you know

602
00:28:36.420 --> 00:28:40.559
pronounce that way, and he does seem to be in opposition to the

603
00:28:40.559 --> 00:28:41.339
time lords.

604
00:28:41.400 --> 00:28:43.859
And obviously we never go back there because we never properly

605
00:28:43.859 --> 00:28:48.839
come back to this, except in the 5 doctors, as you said.

606
00:28:55.799 --> 00:29:00.180
I think it's very important to notice well that the War Games gets

607
00:29:00.180 --> 00:29:03.420
a lot right that the Trout and era as a whole gets wrong.

608
00:29:03.480 --> 00:29:03.960
Yeah, okay.

609
00:29:03.960 --> 00:29:09.720
So when we visited kind of a recognisable earth mostly during the

610
00:29:09.720 --> 00:29:13.019
trout and era, it's always been this kind of heightened reality.

611
00:29:13.079 --> 00:29:15.240
It's been Earth 5 minutes in the future.

612
00:29:15.299 --> 00:29:18.779
It's been enemy of the world with that strange geopolitical setup

613
00:29:18.779 --> 00:29:22.680
or it's been the invasion, which is recognisable, but has all of

614
00:29:22.680 --> 00:29:26.579
these kind of like developments which 1968 Britain didn't have.

615
00:29:26.640 --> 00:29:30.839
World War one, as you said before, was entirely recognisable to

616
00:29:30.839 --> 00:29:31.740
people through media.

617
00:29:31.799 --> 00:29:35.759
They've seen endless films and TV and documentaries on the subject

618
00:29:35.759 --> 00:29:37.259
and it was within living memory.

619
00:29:37.380 --> 00:29:41.819
So I think grounding the story initially in that is a new and

620
00:29:41.819 --> 00:29:43.619
different thing for the trout era.

621
00:29:43.680 --> 00:29:46.980
When it then pivots to being an alien world story.

622
00:29:47.039 --> 00:29:50.759
Think about the alien worlds that we've had in the trout era.

623
00:29:50.819 --> 00:29:52.380
They're pretty dull as a bunch.

624
00:29:52.440 --> 00:29:55.259
It's the dominators and the crotons.

625
00:29:55.319 --> 00:29:58.079
And, you know, dry space stations like the wheel in space.

626
00:29:58.140 --> 00:30:02.039
This is an effort to create an alien environment that is

627
00:30:02.039 --> 00:30:05.460
interesting and different and has a complete aesthetic to it.

628
00:30:05.519 --> 00:30:09.059
And so it's a story that sets out to do both of those things and

629
00:30:09.059 --> 00:30:12.960
gets them both right where the era sometimes hasn't. and has no

630
00:30:12.960 --> 00:30:13.380
monsters.

631
00:30:13.440 --> 00:30:14.819
There's no monsters.

632
00:30:14.880 --> 00:30:18.000
Like all of those other space things have monsters appearing or

633
00:30:18.000 --> 00:30:18.660
whatever here.

634
00:30:18.720 --> 00:30:24.299
It's built on the warlord people and their motivations and their

635
00:30:24.299 --> 00:30:24.839
leaders.

636
00:30:25.259 --> 00:30:29.220
Well, I mean, that's why I kind of love it because it is so

637
00:30:29.220 --> 00:30:30.779
different from the rest of the era.

638
00:30:30.839 --> 00:30:35.819
But also it takes people who look like us and makes the monsters.

639
00:30:35.880 --> 00:30:37.559
Well, they look like me.

640
00:30:38.819 --> 00:30:40.799
Might look like you.

641
00:30:40.799 --> 00:30:42.420
On a bad day.

642
00:30:43.259 --> 00:30:47.400
I mean, Sandra sort of says it's like a base under siege in

643
00:30:47.400 --> 00:30:49.920
reverse where we're trying to get into a base rather than

644
00:30:49.920 --> 00:30:52.500
inhabiting a base that other people are trying to get.

645
00:30:52.859 --> 00:30:55.559
The doctrine is companions to the monster.

646
00:30:55.619 --> 00:30:56.039
Yeah.

647
00:30:56.099 --> 00:30:57.480
Well, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

648
00:30:57.539 --> 00:31:01.559
I think that you're right, that it does things that Doctor Who

649
00:31:01.559 --> 00:31:03.779
hasn't done for the last 3 years.

650
00:31:03.839 --> 00:31:08.039
And I think to that end, it is a little bit like the case of

651
00:31:08.039 --> 00:31:10.920
Andrazani, which does something the Doctor Who hasn't done for a

652
00:31:10.920 --> 00:31:13.559
few years, which is have a really excellent script.

653
00:31:15.119 --> 00:31:16.740
Nathan.

654
00:31:18.839 --> 00:31:21.720
I think that's overstating the case.

655
00:31:21.839 --> 00:31:23.220
It may be overstating the case.

656
00:31:23.279 --> 00:31:25.140
I do understand where you're coming from there.

657
00:31:25.200 --> 00:31:28.980
But it has a bleak script in a way that we haven't quite had

658
00:31:28.980 --> 00:31:31.980
before, and we've attempted to do this sort of thing in a shock

659
00:31:31.980 --> 00:31:35.279
and resurrection of the Daleks, but suddenly we do it really

660
00:31:35.279 --> 00:31:38.400
really well, and we dump the doctor in it, and he is his shtick

661
00:31:38.400 --> 00:31:40.799
doesn't work in that environment.

662
00:31:40.859 --> 00:31:44.940
And I think as well, people talk, obviously, about the invasion

663
00:31:44.940 --> 00:31:48.059
and the web of fear being templates for the Pertwi era, and they

664
00:31:48.059 --> 00:31:48.539
are.

665
00:31:48.599 --> 00:31:52.319
But in another way, those opening episodes of the war games, but

666
00:31:52.319 --> 00:31:55.799
that kind of gritty realism, you know, for Doctor Who. lets not

667
00:31:55.799 --> 00:31:59.519
overstate it, is a template for what they then attempt to do with

668
00:31:59.519 --> 00:32:00.180
the series.

669
00:32:00.240 --> 00:32:03.660
Terrence knows the endpoint that the doctor's going to be exiled

670
00:32:03.660 --> 00:32:04.380
to earth.

671
00:32:04.440 --> 00:32:08.460
And like he's been, what, assistant script editor throughout this

672
00:32:08.460 --> 00:32:09.000
season.

673
00:32:09.059 --> 00:32:12.180
And so he's looking back at what's gone before and all of the

674
00:32:12.180 --> 00:32:14.819
changes that are about to happen are within here.

675
00:32:14.880 --> 00:32:18.180
Like he's he's really writing it to say, well, we are going in a

676
00:32:18.180 --> 00:32:19.259
very different direction.

677
00:32:19.319 --> 00:32:21.000
Yeah, I think that's right.

678
00:32:21.059 --> 00:32:22.079
That level of realism.

679
00:32:22.200 --> 00:32:25.799
I got the impression that he actually, I mean, he never said this

680
00:32:25.799 --> 00:32:27.119
but reading between the lines.

681
00:32:27.180 --> 00:32:29.400
I got the impression he didn't actually think that much of Peter

682
00:32:29.400 --> 00:32:30.779
Bryan's and Derek Sherwin.

683
00:32:30.839 --> 00:32:33.119
He said it was very difficult to get decisions out of them.

684
00:32:33.180 --> 00:32:36.119
And so I think he knew he was taking over because they were both

685
00:32:36.119 --> 00:32:40.859
off to shoot Paul Temple all around Europe and he knew Barry was

686
00:32:40.859 --> 00:32:43.799
taking over and he was going to be the chief guy and I think he's

687
00:32:43.799 --> 00:32:45.119
setting up the series as he wants it.

688
00:32:45.180 --> 00:32:46.440
Right, okay.

689
00:32:46.500 --> 00:32:46.859
Okay.

690
00:32:46.920 --> 00:32:48.119
Is Barry on board?

691
00:32:48.180 --> 00:32:50.460
Is he around at that point Barry doesn't come aboard until the

692
00:32:50.460 --> 00:32:51.059
Silurians.

693
00:32:51.119 --> 00:32:51.359
Okay.

694
00:32:51.359 --> 00:32:54.359
So basically what you had was Peter Bryant is essentially producer

695
00:32:54.359 --> 00:32:55.740
up until the space pirates.

696
00:32:55.799 --> 00:32:59.400
Derek Sherwin takes over as producer for the War Games and

697
00:32:59.400 --> 00:33:02.039
spearhead from space and then Barry's on board.

698
00:33:02.099 --> 00:33:02.819
Yeah, okay.

699
00:33:02.819 --> 00:33:05.700
Isn't Derek Sherwin ill or something?

700
00:33:05.700 --> 00:33:07.319
Or why does he only do two?

701
00:33:07.380 --> 00:33:09.599
I thought it was because he was unwell.

702
00:33:09.660 --> 00:33:12.660
No, he wasn't unwell, but he was going to take over the series, but

703
00:33:12.660 --> 00:33:15.660
then he got the offer to join Peter Bryant on Paul Temple.

704
00:33:15.720 --> 00:33:18.119
And, you know, that was a colour action series on film.

705
00:33:18.180 --> 00:33:19.500
Obviously something different.

706
00:33:19.559 --> 00:33:23.160
And he wasn't. just completely embarrassed by his performance as

707
00:33:23.160 --> 00:33:25.140
parking gone.

708
00:33:25.200 --> 00:33:28.920
Are you talking about performances linked to the production?

709
00:33:29.099 --> 00:33:34.799
Of course, Lady Jennifer is played by Derek Sherwin's wife, and it

710
00:33:34.799 --> 00:33:38.099
continues the venerable tradition of having your spouse in the

711
00:33:38.099 --> 00:33:41.160
show because Kaftan in Tomb and the Sideman is played by Peter

712
00:33:41.160 --> 00:33:42.059
Bryant's wife.

713
00:33:42.119 --> 00:33:47.880
And then, of course, next year, we'll go on to have Petra played

714
00:33:47.880 --> 00:33:49.740
by the wife of the director.

715
00:33:49.799 --> 00:33:50.460
Absolutely.

716
00:33:50.519 --> 00:33:53.279
And let's not forget Gary Downey inside that track taker.

717
00:33:54.779 --> 00:33:56.640
No less.

718
00:34:13.320 --> 00:34:17.699
But back to what I was saying, like, he is seeing what's happening

719
00:34:17.699 --> 00:34:23.460
he knows where everything's going, and he's slowly changing, well

720
00:34:23.460 --> 00:34:28.139
not changing, refining the vision of the show to what we know it

721
00:34:28.139 --> 00:34:28.619
to be.

722
00:34:28.679 --> 00:34:32.880
It's already happened in the Trouton era at the end of Hartnell

723
00:34:32.880 --> 00:34:35.400
where it's become Doctor Who, and we've discussed that before.

724
00:34:35.460 --> 00:34:39.300
But now it's becoming more the show that the 4 of us in this room

725
00:34:39.300 --> 00:34:40.679
grew up with.

726
00:34:40.800 --> 00:34:41.699
Yeah, you know?

727
00:34:41.760 --> 00:34:44.460
I find it really interesting going back to watch this because my

728
00:34:44.460 --> 00:34:47.940
memory cheats, like, did I, did I read his novelisation first?

729
00:34:48.000 --> 00:34:52.079
And also, having seen the Purgeware era, like, you know, what the

730
00:34:52.079 --> 00:34:56.280
time loads are and all that sort of thing and the master, like, did

731
00:34:56.280 --> 00:34:59.519
that sort of colour my vision of when I came into this, you know, I

732
00:34:59.519 --> 00:35:02.280
can't put myself in that position of people watching it for the

733
00:35:02.280 --> 00:35:02.699
1st time.

734
00:35:02.820 --> 00:35:07.139
And then suddenly, oh, the Sidrats sound like the TARDIS or this

735
00:35:07.139 --> 00:35:09.300
that must have blown kid's minds in 1968.

736
00:35:09.420 --> 00:35:12.900
Well, just think about that cliffhanger in the time meddler, one

737
00:35:12.900 --> 00:35:16.199
of the best cliffhangers in history where they look in and see, oh

738
00:35:16.199 --> 00:35:17.519
my god, there's another TARDS.

739
00:35:17.579 --> 00:35:19.260
It's amazing.

740
00:35:19.320 --> 00:35:20.280
Just incredible.

741
00:35:20.340 --> 00:35:23.940
And I do think that those capsules, which get called, the guy

742
00:35:23.940 --> 00:35:25.559
pronounces it side rats.

743
00:35:25.619 --> 00:35:29.400
And it only occurs once in dialogue, but let's call them Sidrants

744
00:35:29.400 --> 00:35:31.500
because that's what we've always called them ever since then.

745
00:35:31.559 --> 00:35:35.460
I think they're a genius idea and making them dimensionally

746
00:35:35.460 --> 00:35:40.199
transcendental and making them have the TARDIS materialisation

747
00:35:40.199 --> 00:35:40.559
noise.

748
00:35:40.619 --> 00:35:43.139
And when their doors open, it has that 60s time.

749
00:35:43.199 --> 00:35:44.639
Yeah, yeah, it's genius.

750
00:35:44.699 --> 00:35:46.139
And it does have atmosphere.

751
00:35:46.199 --> 00:35:49.019
It's not quite the TARDIS control room atmosphere, but there is

752
00:35:49.019 --> 00:35:52.019
like a sound associated with being inside.

753
00:35:52.139 --> 00:35:56.159
Then when you get back to the Time Lots home planet, they're there

754
00:35:56.159 --> 00:35:57.539
as well. the same machine.

755
00:35:57.599 --> 00:35:59.820
So it's very definitely poor copies of the original.

756
00:35:59.880 --> 00:36:01.019
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

757
00:36:01.079 --> 00:36:06.539
I mean, let's talk about how all of that stuff gets gradually

758
00:36:06.539 --> 00:36:08.340
ceded into the program.

759
00:36:08.400 --> 00:36:12.780
The one thing that I noticed this time is that both, I think

760
00:36:12.780 --> 00:36:17.400
definitely Zoe and maybe Jamie as well notice how capable the

761
00:36:17.400 --> 00:36:22.019
doctor is of operating the technology here, and that's quite

762
00:36:22.019 --> 00:36:22.679
early.

763
00:36:22.739 --> 00:36:25.800
And they note it, and the doctor won't confirm it.

764
00:36:25.860 --> 00:36:30.059
No, he is clearly aware. knows what the problem is.

765
00:36:30.119 --> 00:36:31.559
It's very show don't tell.

766
00:36:31.619 --> 00:36:32.699
Yeah, yeah.

767
00:36:32.760 --> 00:36:34.019
It's great.

768
00:36:34.079 --> 00:36:37.500
Like, it's, it's really well seated throughout the episode.

769
00:36:37.619 --> 00:36:40.079
In fact, you'll have things like the doctor mucking around with

770
00:36:40.079 --> 00:36:43.440
the control panel inside the, let's call it a side rat.

771
00:36:43.920 --> 00:36:49.019
I just love his fucking around with those magnets and... so

772
00:36:49.019 --> 00:36:49.260
great.

773
00:36:49.320 --> 00:36:51.119
And here, and here, and here.

774
00:36:51.179 --> 00:36:52.679
The cheap scientist says.

775
00:36:52.739 --> 00:36:56.219
But Jamie says to him, it's just like potatoes.

776
00:36:56.219 --> 00:36:57.360
And he doesn't respond.

777
00:36:57.420 --> 00:36:58.679
No, yeah, yeah, yeah.

778
00:36:58.739 --> 00:37:01.380
And then the other thing, which I think we did mention in our

779
00:37:01.380 --> 00:37:05.699
flight through Entirety episode, is that moment where the war

780
00:37:05.699 --> 00:37:08.219
chief recognises the doctor.

781
00:37:08.340 --> 00:37:11.099
And it plays into that desperation thing.

782
00:37:11.159 --> 00:37:14.940
We've never seen Troughton quite so panicked as when he screams at

783
00:37:14.940 --> 00:37:15.480
Zoe to run.

784
00:37:15.539 --> 00:37:16.980
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

785
00:37:17.039 --> 00:37:18.719
Like, that's incredible as well.

786
00:37:18.780 --> 00:37:19.980
That's a huge moment.

787
00:37:20.039 --> 00:37:23.159
And we forget that because, you know, he's running into Asmail or

788
00:37:23.159 --> 00:37:26.880
Christ knows who. you know, like every other. story.

789
00:37:28.739 --> 00:37:32.639
So that's astounding at the time, isn't it?

790
00:37:32.699 --> 00:37:36.300
And so it does become clear that something's going on.

791
00:37:36.360 --> 00:37:39.360
We get the time lords mentioned, are they mentioned in eight?

792
00:37:39.420 --> 00:37:40.920
No, before that, possibly.

793
00:37:41.039 --> 00:37:43.500
In fact, I think the chief scientist is the 1st person to mention

794
00:37:43.500 --> 00:37:43.860
them.

795
00:37:43.980 --> 00:37:45.239
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

796
00:37:45.300 --> 00:37:47.820
Yeah, I mean, that's quite incredible.

797
00:37:47.880 --> 00:37:51.780
And it does up the stakes to a point where, like, how do you feel

798
00:37:51.780 --> 00:37:53.519
about the Cliffhanger episode?

799
00:37:53.579 --> 00:37:57.599
I guess it's a cliffhanger episode eight, isn't it?

800
00:37:57.659 --> 00:38:01.980
Where the doctor betrays the resistance leaders to the war chief

801
00:38:01.980 --> 00:38:03.179
or the security chief.

802
00:38:03.239 --> 00:38:05.460
Well, see, you never quite believe that in Doc 2.

803
00:38:05.579 --> 00:38:08.699
When you get an epic like this, where things are going off the

804
00:38:08.699 --> 00:38:11.219
tracks and you're not quite sure where all this is going, who

805
00:38:11.219 --> 00:38:11.460
knows?

806
00:38:11.519 --> 00:38:13.019
Yeah, that's exactly right.

807
00:38:13.079 --> 00:38:14.280
I think that that's it.

808
00:38:14.340 --> 00:38:18.480
And I think also that even if we don't buy it, the doctor

809
00:38:18.480 --> 00:38:23.099
pretending to betray his friends is enough of a departure from his

810
00:38:23.099 --> 00:38:25.380
usual behaviour to be a shock.

811
00:38:25.440 --> 00:38:29.699
So even if you are aware that he's just playing for time, why is

812
00:38:29.699 --> 00:38:32.219
he doing this to them, it seems so unusual.

813
00:38:32.280 --> 00:38:34.320
So that's amazing.

814
00:38:34.380 --> 00:38:38.579
Like, I think that the time lords, like the scale of this threat

815
00:38:38.579 --> 00:38:40.739
is like, nothing that we've ever seen before.

816
00:38:40.800 --> 00:38:42.480
The shadow of the time rules.

817
00:38:42.539 --> 00:38:45.179
Yeah, is really there in those last episodes.

818
00:38:45.239 --> 00:38:47.159
Like you just feel it.

819
00:38:47.219 --> 00:38:51.360
And like, as you mentioned earlier, that whole the wind and and

820
00:38:51.360 --> 00:38:55.199
just them trying to get away and oh, even when he builds his

821
00:38:55.199 --> 00:38:57.480
little box thing to send that.

822
00:38:57.539 --> 00:39:00.239
There's something otherworldly about it.

823
00:39:01.079 --> 00:39:03.780
Yeah, it's just...

824
00:39:03.780 --> 00:39:07.199
They use force fields and they dematerialise people so that

825
00:39:07.199 --> 00:39:08.159
they've never existed.

826
00:39:08.280 --> 00:39:11.280
It's these weird ultra powerful things. like gods in Star Trek.

827
00:39:11.340 --> 00:39:12.119
Yeah, yeah.

828
00:39:12.179 --> 00:39:14.940
But you see, if they were truly gods in Star Trek, they would have

829
00:39:14.940 --> 00:39:17.699
got the doctor to snog, Rudolph Walker.

830
00:39:17.760 --> 00:39:18.480
They would not.

831
00:39:19.800 --> 00:39:23.820
I'd watch that The mounting panic.

832
00:39:23.880 --> 00:39:29.280
After Josh has put all of his experiences from the last 8 episodes

833
00:39:29.280 --> 00:39:33.420
into the box and he's about to send it and then the resistance

834
00:39:33.420 --> 00:39:36.420
fighters are having arguments with him and he's trying to get away

835
00:39:36.420 --> 00:39:38.519
and you're like, let him go.

836
00:39:39.840 --> 00:39:44.579
And then, and I'm, is it Russell, Russell holding back Arturo

837
00:39:44.579 --> 00:39:48.960
Villa, like so that they can get into the side rat and...

838
00:39:49.019 --> 00:39:51.840
And even then, Russell says, we've got to let him go, he's done

839
00:39:51.840 --> 00:39:52.619
too much. for us.

840
00:39:52.739 --> 00:39:53.820
Yeah, yeah.

841
00:39:53.880 --> 00:39:56.699
Because the doctor's not the only person who knows the time

842
00:39:56.699 --> 00:39:57.239
lords.

843
00:39:57.300 --> 00:39:58.920
Like the warlord knows of them.

844
00:39:58.980 --> 00:40:00.840
The war chief is obviously one of them.

845
00:40:00.900 --> 00:40:06.119
And so they're able there also to sell that sense of panic and

846
00:40:06.119 --> 00:40:09.840
stuff to make the time lords as big as they possibly can be.

847
00:40:09.900 --> 00:40:14.579
I have to say that because we've got the space for a whole episode

848
00:40:14.579 --> 00:40:19.679
at the end, to kind of deal with them, and because of how new and

849
00:40:19.679 --> 00:40:23.219
strange this is, how absolutely unprecedented it is in the show

850
00:40:23.219 --> 00:40:27.119
I'm nearly at the point where I want to make this my favourite

851
00:40:27.119 --> 00:40:34.019
regeneration story, just because I think that the show changes so

852
00:40:34.019 --> 00:40:36.780
radically and so strangely.

853
00:40:36.840 --> 00:40:40.199
I think there's a real loss to finding out where the doctor comes

854
00:40:40.199 --> 00:40:40.500
from.

855
00:40:40.559 --> 00:40:42.360
I think it's a real problem.

856
00:40:42.420 --> 00:40:46.920
And the decisions made here don't always lead the show into a

857
00:40:46.920 --> 00:40:48.420
particularly good place.

858
00:40:48.420 --> 00:40:55.980
But here, it's possible that we introduce the time lords and we

859
00:40:55.980 --> 00:40:57.659
don't wreck the show.

860
00:40:57.719 --> 00:41:01.980
We start to actually get a clearer idea of why the doctor is the

861
00:41:01.980 --> 00:41:06.059
hero, that he's become during the Trout era and during the late

862
00:41:06.059 --> 00:41:11.099
Hartnell era, it gives him something definite to react against

863
00:41:11.099 --> 00:41:16.559
that he's fun and that he cares, and he wants to do good.

864
00:41:16.559 --> 00:41:18.780
It is a peculiar reaction against that doctor.

865
00:41:18.840 --> 00:41:19.800
Yeah, yeah.

866
00:41:19.800 --> 00:41:22.739
If it had been versus the pertwee doctor or the heart nor doctor

867
00:41:22.739 --> 00:41:25.739
you wouldn't have felt the same because he's having his liberty

868
00:41:25.739 --> 00:41:28.679
taken away from him and liberty is everything to the 2nd doctor.

869
00:41:28.800 --> 00:41:29.639
Yeah, absolutely.

870
00:41:29.699 --> 00:41:34.019
Railing against sort of authoritarianism and against rules.

871
00:41:34.079 --> 00:41:35.519
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

872
00:41:35.579 --> 00:41:40.500
They're a very good foil to the doctor and I think that dropping

873
00:41:40.500 --> 00:41:45.659
him on earth in practice doesn't wreck the show, that the Perto

874
00:41:45.659 --> 00:41:51.420
era isn't that vastly different from the eras on either side of it

875
00:41:51.420 --> 00:41:54.000
a little bit more earthbound, but it's still allowed to tell the

876
00:41:54.000 --> 00:41:55.679
same kinds of stories, I think.

877
00:41:55.739 --> 00:41:58.739
So it doesn't ruin the show and the show doesn't become the time

878
00:41:58.739 --> 00:41:59.400
lord show.

879
00:41:59.519 --> 00:42:01.199
Well, that's what I was going to say.

880
00:42:01.260 --> 00:42:04.019
Like, you mean, they're introduced, but they're only in the one

881
00:42:04.019 --> 00:42:04.500
episode.

882
00:42:04.920 --> 00:42:06.719
It's more their presence, right?

883
00:42:06.840 --> 00:42:10.380
And then here we are, boom, we're changing the show, but we're

884
00:42:10.380 --> 00:42:11.880
going to stay out of it. not in the next season.

885
00:42:11.940 --> 00:42:14.039
Like, they're not there at all.

886
00:42:14.099 --> 00:42:18.480
And it's only like a year later that suddenly, you know, you've

887
00:42:18.480 --> 00:42:22.260
got the master and then Joe knows about them and the doctor sent

888
00:42:22.260 --> 00:42:23.940
on missions to try and get him back into space.

889
00:42:24.000 --> 00:42:26.820
But even then, that doesn't last that long.

890
00:42:26.880 --> 00:42:30.960
It's only 15 stories before he gets his exile lifted.

891
00:42:31.019 --> 00:42:31.440
Yeah.

892
00:42:31.440 --> 00:42:34.619
And even then they're still very much in the background.

893
00:42:34.679 --> 00:42:39.420
Like, I'll say this, I think, you know, 80s timeline story is

894
00:42:39.420 --> 00:42:43.739
potentially ruin the show, but the way in which Terrence, a script

895
00:42:43.739 --> 00:42:47.519
editor uses them throughout the Pertwee era, is actually quite

896
00:42:47.519 --> 00:42:49.320
sparingly and for purpose.

897
00:42:49.380 --> 00:42:51.119
And it doesn't ruin the show.

898
00:42:51.179 --> 00:42:54.780
I would agree with that, but I would also say that as ever with

899
00:42:54.780 --> 00:42:55.199
these things.

900
00:42:55.260 --> 00:42:57.179
It's not the introduction of something.

901
00:42:57.239 --> 00:42:59.280
It's the way that it's then used going forward.

902
00:42:59.340 --> 00:43:02.940
So Davos is fantastic and amazing.

903
00:43:03.000 --> 00:43:06.420
The fact that they return to that well a number of times dilutes

904
00:43:06.420 --> 00:43:08.519
how potent and incredible it is.

905
00:43:08.579 --> 00:43:12.599
If the time lords had just been in the war games, we would think

906
00:43:12.599 --> 00:43:13.440
that they were amazing.

907
00:43:13.500 --> 00:43:17.519
It is the fact that they return to them piecemeal throughout the

908
00:43:17.519 --> 00:43:21.539
Pertwi era that I think dilutes a lot of their potency within the

909
00:43:21.539 --> 00:43:21.719
show.

910
00:43:21.780 --> 00:43:26.400
They are so awesome and so terrifying and they don't become that

911
00:43:26.400 --> 00:43:26.820
again.

912
00:43:26.880 --> 00:43:29.159
And when Holmes gets hold of them.

913
00:43:29.219 --> 00:43:32.099
Like, even at the beginning of Tariff, the autons, where you've

914
00:43:32.099 --> 00:43:35.940
got the Magrit painting guy, you know, in the bowler hat, being

915
00:43:35.940 --> 00:43:39.900
terribly camp and thinking of witty ways of dealing with things

916
00:43:39.900 --> 00:43:43.980
you know, like, that is not the time lords that we see.

917
00:43:44.039 --> 00:43:47.400
That's not Bernard Horsfall at the end of this story.

918
00:43:47.400 --> 00:43:50.820
When Mac Hulk gets hold of them again for the one and only time at

919
00:43:50.820 --> 00:43:52.139
the start of colony in space.

920
00:43:52.199 --> 00:43:53.820
It is those time points.

921
00:43:53.880 --> 00:43:54.599
Yeah, yeah.

922
00:43:54.659 --> 00:43:55.739
That is interesting.

923
00:43:55.739 --> 00:43:58.260
Because, I mean, you see them, obviously, in the 3 doctors and

924
00:43:58.260 --> 00:43:59.159
they're not all powerful.

925
00:43:59.159 --> 00:44:03.780
And it is different from this and they are never, besides that

926
00:44:03.780 --> 00:44:05.099
quite the same way again.

927
00:44:05.159 --> 00:44:10.019
It's the sort of change from Doctor Who, being a sort of whimsical

928
00:44:10.019 --> 00:44:16.980
fantasy series with nearly no premise to being kind of burdened

929
00:44:16.980 --> 00:44:18.599
with all of this law.

930
00:44:18.659 --> 00:44:21.900
And I think the show finds a way of coping with it.

931
00:44:21.960 --> 00:44:25.500
It's at its best when it uses that stuff sparingly.

932
00:44:25.559 --> 00:44:28.260
But again, it wouldn't be burdened with the law if it didn't keep

933
00:44:28.260 --> 00:44:29.099
returning to it.

934
00:44:29.159 --> 00:44:33.360
If this was just a plot function to explain where the doctor came

935
00:44:33.360 --> 00:44:36.900
from and exile him to earth and then we just go forward with the

936
00:44:36.900 --> 00:44:37.920
series, that would be fine.

937
00:44:37.980 --> 00:44:41.039
Yeah, I think there's an inexorable gravity, though, to

938
00:44:41.039 --> 00:44:44.940
introducing that as a premise that it was more or less inevitable

939
00:44:44.940 --> 00:44:46.019
that we would go back there.

940
00:44:46.019 --> 00:44:49.739
And certainly Terrence is introducing it, presumably with some

941
00:44:49.739 --> 00:44:51.900
nascent idea that he'll go back there.

942
00:44:51.960 --> 00:44:54.840
Well, it's interesting that you've got the war chief, who knows

943
00:44:54.840 --> 00:44:56.099
the doctor and they have a history.

944
00:44:56.159 --> 00:45:00.000
And then, you know, in a year's time, they're going to say, well

945
00:45:00.000 --> 00:45:04.019
let's return to that by introducing the master because it actually

946
00:45:04.019 --> 00:45:05.159
works so well here.

947
00:45:05.219 --> 00:45:09.420
I get very disappointed that he gets killed off because he is that

948
00:45:09.420 --> 00:45:09.659
good.

949
00:45:09.719 --> 00:45:12.119
And it's clearly the same conception of a character.

950
00:45:12.239 --> 00:45:13.019
Yeah.

951
00:45:13.019 --> 00:45:16.260
He interacts with the doctor, that kind of adversarial, but also

952
00:45:16.260 --> 00:45:17.880
kind of collegiate relationship.

953
00:45:17.940 --> 00:45:21.840
To the point where, you know, doesn't the doomsday weapon

954
00:45:21.840 --> 00:45:24.420
basically imply that he is the master?

955
00:45:24.480 --> 00:45:27.659
The novelisation of holy in space.

956
00:45:27.719 --> 00:45:31.679
Oh, actually makes the connection that the war chief is the

957
00:45:31.679 --> 00:45:32.219
master.

958
00:45:32.219 --> 00:45:36.719
And then obviously also the war games in colour makes that very

959
00:45:36.719 --> 00:45:39.059
clear that they've decided he is the master. too clear.

960
00:45:39.599 --> 00:45:43.679
I mean, I think there is sort of something to be said for that.

961
00:45:43.739 --> 00:45:46.920
It is a very similar character, but, you know, there can be more

962
00:45:46.920 --> 00:45:48.840
than 2 people on Gallifrey.

963
00:45:49.019 --> 00:45:50.880
It's the dry run.

964
00:45:50.940 --> 00:45:51.719
It's the dry run.

965
00:45:51.780 --> 00:45:55.139
I've looked at the security chief and realised what a great foil

966
00:45:55.139 --> 00:45:56.099
for the doctor that is.

967
00:45:56.159 --> 00:46:00.360
And when you get in a great actor like Edward Brayshaw, who is

968
00:46:00.360 --> 00:46:01.199
Australian, by the way.

969
00:46:01.260 --> 00:46:04.019
Oh, okay. and who was in the reign of terror.

970
00:46:04.079 --> 00:46:07.139
So just, you know, apropos of nothing.

971
00:46:07.199 --> 00:46:11.880
When you get in a great charismatic actor playing a strong foil

972
00:46:11.880 --> 00:46:13.860
for the doctor, that's a regular villain.

973
00:46:13.860 --> 00:46:15.840
That's something you can come back to time and again.

974
00:46:15.900 --> 00:46:18.119
Tell me you look at Peter Butterworth as the monk.

975
00:46:18.179 --> 00:46:22.380
He was brought back and he was a grateful for William Hart.

976
00:46:22.440 --> 00:46:23.760
It's a shame he never appeared again.

977
00:46:23.820 --> 00:46:25.139
Absolutely.

978
00:46:25.199 --> 00:46:28.079
Can we shout out to Philip Maddock, who was making his 2nd

979
00:46:28.079 --> 00:46:31.380
appearance in the season...

980
00:46:31.380 --> 00:46:34.739
After his award-winning performance...

981
00:46:34.800 --> 00:46:40.260
He is utterly unrecognisable and totally sensational and just the

982
00:46:40.260 --> 00:46:43.079
voice and the mannerisms in the performance.

983
00:46:43.260 --> 00:46:44.579
Quiet authority.

984
00:46:44.760 --> 00:46:48.420
I have recollections of when I 1st watched it, not realising it

985
00:46:48.420 --> 00:46:48.900
was actually him.

986
00:46:48.960 --> 00:46:49.500
Right.

987
00:46:49.559 --> 00:46:54.360
See, like, he's Solon, obviously, and I have recently been

988
00:46:54.360 --> 00:46:58.860
thinking about Power of Kroll because I sort of posted about that

989
00:46:58.860 --> 00:46:59.159
season.

990
00:46:59.219 --> 00:47:00.420
Always.

991
00:47:00.420 --> 00:47:06.599
I think his performance as Fena in Power of Kroll, and the warlord

992
00:47:06.599 --> 00:47:07.980
are not that far off.

993
00:47:08.039 --> 00:47:10.019
It's very sort of saturnine.

994
00:47:10.079 --> 00:47:10.739
Yeah, yeah.

995
00:47:10.800 --> 00:47:13.920
It's not the ranty soul on character.

996
00:47:14.039 --> 00:47:16.380
It is that much, much more a strained character.

997
00:47:16.440 --> 00:47:20.579
And there's something about, um, he's terrifying.

998
00:47:20.639 --> 00:47:21.780
He's frightening.

999
00:47:21.840 --> 00:47:24.420
He does that very quiet, very soft voice thing all the way

1000
00:47:24.420 --> 00:47:25.139
through.

1001
00:47:25.199 --> 00:47:27.659
But he's also amused by the doctor as well.

1002
00:47:27.719 --> 00:47:30.119
And he can see through the doctor.

1003
00:47:30.179 --> 00:47:32.880
There's one point in one of the late episodes where there's a

1004
00:47:32.880 --> 00:47:37.079
scene where he's just smiling as the doctor lies to him because he

1005
00:47:37.079 --> 00:47:39.119
doesn't care and he knows that it's false.

1006
00:47:39.179 --> 00:47:41.159
You have a silver tongue, doctor.

1007
00:47:41.219 --> 00:47:41.579
Yes.

1008
00:47:41.579 --> 00:47:43.079
Like your friend, the war tune.

1009
00:47:43.139 --> 00:47:43.800
That's it.

1010
00:47:43.860 --> 00:47:46.679
You knew that they were that well acquainted.

1011
00:47:47.280 --> 00:47:49.679
What a stupid fool you.

1012
00:47:50.099 --> 00:47:52.679
I'm sure he got the job somewhere.

1013
00:47:53.340 --> 00:47:55.920
Yes, he is amused by things.

1014
00:47:55.920 --> 00:47:59.340
And he's also amused to a certain extent by the infighting between

1015
00:47:59.340 --> 00:48:01.320
security chief and the water.

1016
00:48:01.440 --> 00:48:05.219
But to a greater extent, really annoyed by the fact that they just

1017
00:48:05.219 --> 00:48:06.840
can't get their stuff together.

1018
00:48:06.900 --> 00:48:10.320
It's great actually when the boss arrives and they have just

1019
00:48:10.320 --> 00:48:12.239
completely stuffed everything up.

1020
00:48:12.300 --> 00:48:17.340
Everything's like in an absolute kind of disaster, the moment that

1021
00:48:17.340 --> 00:48:20.639
he arrives and they're having to sort of explain that it's all

1022
00:48:20.639 --> 00:48:23.820
under control and we're about to fix it any moment now, which is

1023
00:48:23.820 --> 00:48:24.239
pretty great.

1024
00:48:39.300 --> 00:48:43.320
Obviously, this is Terence shaping the show as he wants it to go

1025
00:48:43.320 --> 00:48:43.800
forward.

1026
00:48:43.860 --> 00:48:48.599
What do you think is kind of visible here in his writing that

1027
00:48:48.599 --> 00:48:50.880
we're going to get to know about over the next few weeks?

1028
00:48:50.940 --> 00:48:54.179
We've talked about some of the hallmarks of his writing.

1029
00:48:54.239 --> 00:48:57.119
I think the morality, the clear morality and the doctor and the

1030
00:48:57.119 --> 00:48:59.280
humour that he brings to the character of the doctor.

1031
00:48:59.340 --> 00:49:04.320
I also think he is like that other great Terry, Terry Nation in

1032
00:49:04.320 --> 00:49:09.480
that he has a very, very strong clarity of storytelling and it's

1033
00:49:09.480 --> 00:49:11.519
because he's grounded in all those things that we've talked about

1034
00:49:11.519 --> 00:49:15.119
and he likes a straightforward action thriller.

1035
00:49:15.179 --> 00:49:19.320
And what he does is bring that aesthetic to the show.

1036
00:49:19.380 --> 00:49:23.820
So everything that Terence writes is just a bounding story from

1037
00:49:23.820 --> 00:49:27.300
start to finish, populated with great characters and with

1038
00:49:27.300 --> 00:49:28.980
interesting dynamics between them.

1039
00:49:29.039 --> 00:49:33.059
He just goes back to those concepts of storytelling and minds them

1040
00:49:33.059 --> 00:49:36.719
there are very few stories that they don't make, that they

1041
00:49:36.719 --> 00:49:39.000
commission as a script and then don't follow through.

1042
00:49:39.059 --> 00:49:42.000
And that's because he has that nuts and bolts storytelling.

1043
00:49:42.059 --> 00:49:45.960
And so he can work with the writer to get a workable story out of

1044
00:49:45.960 --> 00:49:47.699
whatever concepts that they have.

1045
00:49:47.760 --> 00:49:51.960
And I think you'll see in future in his work on the novelisations

1046
00:49:51.960 --> 00:49:56.880
that economical and very precise storytelling where he can

1047
00:49:56.880 --> 00:50:01.739
actually just put together a story in 110 pages and it's there on

1048
00:50:01.739 --> 00:50:02.219
the page.

1049
00:50:02.280 --> 00:50:05.699
But you'll also see it in the way that he can write to order with

1050
00:50:05.699 --> 00:50:07.139
things like the 5 doctors.

1051
00:50:07.199 --> 00:50:09.960
You just tell him we need this, this, this, and this, and he will

1052
00:50:09.960 --> 00:50:11.820
turn out something that's perfectly serviceable.

1053
00:50:11.880 --> 00:50:13.920
Which Bob Holmes couldn't do in that case.

1054
00:50:13.980 --> 00:50:14.639
Correct.

1055
00:50:14.699 --> 00:50:19.380
This story is that baptism of fire that I think he learns that in

1056
00:50:19.380 --> 00:50:19.980
in a way.

1057
00:50:20.039 --> 00:50:22.139
Like this is his testing ground.

1058
00:50:22.199 --> 00:50:26.219
He has to do these 10 episodes in 20 days, as you said earlier

1059
00:50:26.219 --> 00:50:28.619
Peter, and he proved that he could do it.

1060
00:50:28.679 --> 00:50:32.699
And then he learned how to manage that going forward.

1061
00:50:32.760 --> 00:50:34.860
Yes, the confidence to structure going on.

1062
00:50:34.920 --> 00:50:37.860
Yes, and also never wanting to happen again.

1063
00:50:38.219 --> 00:50:44.579
There's not a failure of script per se in the pertwee era.

1064
00:50:44.639 --> 00:50:49.199
Like, yes, there's some lesser ones and the greater ones, but

1065
00:50:49.199 --> 00:50:53.699
nothing of a total disaster that perhaps Eric Saywood's had later

1066
00:50:53.699 --> 00:50:54.059
on.

1067
00:50:54.059 --> 00:50:55.619
Or that we've had before.

1068
00:50:55.619 --> 00:50:56.820
Or that we've had before.

1069
00:50:56.880 --> 00:51:01.079
His major strength is that he can get to the nuts and bolts of

1070
00:51:01.079 --> 00:51:01.440
that story.

1071
00:51:01.500 --> 00:51:04.679
We can shape the cliffhangers and where are we going all the way

1072
00:51:04.679 --> 00:51:08.699
through and help writers to focus, but also we've either got a

1073
00:51:08.699 --> 00:51:11.519
clear monster or a villain and we've got, you know, a second dream

1074
00:51:11.519 --> 00:51:14.940
sort of person who can be annoying or whatever, but we've also got

1075
00:51:14.940 --> 00:51:19.139
those relationships with the doctor and his companions and whether

1076
00:51:19.139 --> 00:51:22.500
it be the brigadier, Liz, Joe, whatever, and the humour that's

1077
00:51:22.500 --> 00:51:24.239
thrown in there in those situations.

1078
00:51:24.300 --> 00:51:25.860
And it's all in here.

1079
00:51:25.920 --> 00:51:28.619
I think he doesn't see writing as art.

1080
00:51:28.679 --> 00:51:31.559
I think he would call himself a jobbing writer.

1081
00:51:31.619 --> 00:51:32.519
It's craft.

1082
00:51:32.579 --> 00:51:33.659
It's not art.

1083
00:51:33.719 --> 00:51:37.199
It's just getting a really great concept and here, let's not

1084
00:51:37.199 --> 00:51:37.679
forget.

1085
00:51:37.739 --> 00:51:41.159
They have the brilliant concept of different war zones, which

1086
00:51:41.159 --> 00:51:44.159
means they can basically pad out the story as long as they need to

1087
00:51:44.159 --> 00:51:46.619
just by going to new wars.

1088
00:51:46.679 --> 00:51:50.340
And then knowing what to do with it just to fill the allotted

1089
00:51:50.340 --> 00:51:50.699
time.

1090
00:51:50.760 --> 00:51:52.440
That's not an artist at work.

1091
00:51:52.500 --> 00:51:53.400
That's a craftsman.

1092
00:51:53.519 --> 00:51:56.579
But I think there's something, you know, like art is nothing

1093
00:51:56.579 --> 00:51:57.840
without craft, I think.

1094
00:51:57.900 --> 00:52:00.960
And I think that this is a story that has something proper to

1095
00:52:00.960 --> 00:52:01.260
say.

1096
00:52:01.320 --> 00:52:06.059
Absolutely. and has something proper to do within the confines of

1097
00:52:06.059 --> 00:52:09.000
the program that's actually going to impact the program going

1098
00:52:09.000 --> 00:52:09.719
forward.

1099
00:52:09.780 --> 00:52:10.980
And that's a really good point.

1100
00:52:11.039 --> 00:52:11.880
It has something to say.

1101
00:52:11.940 --> 00:52:14.519
And not every perjury story is going to have something to say, but

1102
00:52:14.519 --> 00:52:15.119
a lot of them do.

1103
00:52:15.179 --> 00:52:16.559
Yeah, yeah, yeah. absolutely.

1104
00:52:16.619 --> 00:52:20.039
And whether it's be about pollution or minor strikes or whatever

1105
00:52:20.039 --> 00:52:25.139
things that we saw on television as kids of being of our time, but

1106
00:52:25.139 --> 00:52:28.860
we're actually like, in my head, like 5 or 6 years ahead of what

1107
00:52:28.860 --> 00:52:32.880
was actually happening. is these elements of ethics and empathy

1108
00:52:32.880 --> 00:52:36.599
that I don't think the program has properly mined before, which

1109
00:52:36.599 --> 00:52:39.780
become staples of the show during the Pertwei era.

1110
00:52:39.840 --> 00:52:42.179
And I think that's Terence.

1111
00:52:42.239 --> 00:52:45.960
Barry gets the credit for a lot of kind of, you know, the

1112
00:52:45.960 --> 00:52:50.400
ecological standpoints and bringing religion and ideas of religion

1113
00:52:50.400 --> 00:52:51.119
to the program.

1114
00:52:51.179 --> 00:52:54.659
And I think he does, but Terrence is the one who can make stories

1115
00:52:54.659 --> 00:52:55.920
about them.

1116
00:52:55.980 --> 00:52:57.480
Yes, he makes it happen.

1117
00:52:57.539 --> 00:53:00.780
And he can see that they're essential to society.

1118
00:53:00.840 --> 00:53:05.579
I took last season when we were looking at the Colin Baker era and

1119
00:53:05.579 --> 00:53:08.639
I said that season 22 was the moment where I felt I was now seeing

1120
00:53:08.639 --> 00:53:10.079
through the program.

1121
00:53:10.139 --> 00:53:15.960
And I think what is happening there is that Terrence is so good at

1122
00:53:15.960 --> 00:53:20.340
a Doctor Who that consists of captures and escapes of fooling

1123
00:53:20.340 --> 00:53:20.820
people.

1124
00:53:20.880 --> 00:53:26.039
He's so good at making a plot out of those where things happen and

1125
00:53:26.039 --> 00:53:29.219
things have momentum and lead somewhere.

1126
00:53:29.280 --> 00:53:34.980
You know here, this is the story of this emerging resistance that

1127
00:53:34.980 --> 00:53:38.219
rises up and eventually infiltrates the base.

1128
00:53:38.280 --> 00:53:42.840
It's going somewhere and all of the incidental action leads up to

1129
00:53:42.840 --> 00:53:43.079
it.

1130
00:53:43.139 --> 00:53:48.300
It's very easy to write the captures and escapes and fail to get

1131
00:53:48.300 --> 00:53:49.619
them to do anything.

1132
00:53:49.679 --> 00:53:54.840
And I think that perhaps that ability kind of drops off a bit

1133
00:53:54.840 --> 00:53:59.760
after Terence and and then after him kind of homes leave the

1134
00:53:59.760 --> 00:54:00.179
program.

1135
00:54:00.239 --> 00:54:04.679
I think Terence, as a script writer, his long received wisdom

1136
00:54:04.679 --> 00:54:08.760
reputation among fans as a writer is almost entirely built on the

1137
00:54:08.760 --> 00:54:09.659
horror of Fang Rock.

1138
00:54:09.719 --> 00:54:13.619
Yeah. and that is the acme of approach.

1139
00:54:13.679 --> 00:54:16.739
But I would argue that it should actually be built on this.

1140
00:54:16.800 --> 00:54:17.699
Yeah, okay.

1141
00:54:17.760 --> 00:54:18.539
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1142
00:54:30.599 --> 00:54:32.099
The exit of the companions.

1143
00:54:32.219 --> 00:54:36.719
That is really quite heartbreaking to me, and the fact that

1144
00:54:36.719 --> 00:54:38.400
they're willing to go there as well.

1145
00:54:38.460 --> 00:54:39.840
It's really moving, isn't it?

1146
00:54:39.900 --> 00:54:40.980
It's really, really well done.

1147
00:54:41.039 --> 00:54:43.800
And the fact that Jamie's had so much character work and will only

1148
00:54:43.800 --> 00:54:44.940
remember that 1st adventure.

1149
00:54:45.000 --> 00:54:49.619
I mean, yes, for Zoe as well, but particularly that, I was just

1150
00:54:49.619 --> 00:54:52.079
shattered, like reading about it or knowing about it.

1151
00:54:52.139 --> 00:54:53.940
And like, he's prepared to go there?

1152
00:54:54.000 --> 00:54:55.440
Like that's a real consequence.

1153
00:54:55.500 --> 00:54:57.360
It really lands for us.

1154
00:54:57.360 --> 00:55:00.719
And I said this, I think, in Journey's end, because we're Doctor

1155
00:55:00.719 --> 00:55:03.659
Who fans and we love Doctor Who and watching Doctor Who and

1156
00:55:03.659 --> 00:55:05.159
remembering Doctor Who.

1157
00:55:05.219 --> 00:55:10.920
The idea that you wouldn't remember all of those stories, you know

1158
00:55:10.920 --> 00:55:14.159
that you had been in, that would be wiped out, that lands

1159
00:55:14.159 --> 00:55:15.480
particularly for us.

1160
00:55:15.539 --> 00:55:18.960
And just the resignation of the doctor.

1161
00:55:19.019 --> 00:55:22.079
Like, you almost get the sense that there's that little escape.

1162
00:55:22.139 --> 00:55:24.780
You know, there's that little moment where they escape. dragged

1163
00:55:24.780 --> 00:55:26.039
into it by Jamie and Zoe.

1164
00:55:26.099 --> 00:55:28.440
And he does it for them because he loves them.

1165
00:55:28.440 --> 00:55:28.920
Exactly right.

1166
00:55:28.980 --> 00:55:30.960
He knows there's no escaping.

1167
00:55:31.019 --> 00:55:32.579
Oh one last little adventure.

1168
00:55:32.639 --> 00:55:33.780
So sweet.

1169
00:55:33.840 --> 00:55:35.639
That's exactly what I think is happening there.

1170
00:55:35.699 --> 00:55:36.480
It's great.

1171
00:55:36.960 --> 00:55:40.920
I was in tears watching the end of that episode because you've

1172
00:55:40.920 --> 00:55:44.880
known these characters like Jamie, you've known for his entire run

1173
00:55:44.880 --> 00:55:45.119
basically.

1174
00:55:45.179 --> 00:55:50.400
And it's basically that's Jamie's entire adult life, in a way, up

1175
00:55:50.400 --> 00:55:52.380
until this point, is being wiped away.

1176
00:55:52.440 --> 00:55:56.760
But also, too, is Zoe going back to the wheel in space and they

1177
00:55:56.760 --> 00:56:00.059
could have just had her wherever, but taking the time to do that

1178
00:56:00.059 --> 00:56:00.239
right?

1179
00:56:00.300 --> 00:56:02.400
That get back, Gemma, Gemma.

1180
00:56:02.460 --> 00:56:07.320
It's little touches like that going forward that, you know, also

1181
00:56:07.320 --> 00:56:09.599
Terrence influences, really.

1182
00:56:09.659 --> 00:56:11.940
I mean, that's the sort of thing that you're doing in the Moffit

1183
00:56:11.940 --> 00:56:13.440
era or in the new series, isn't it?

1184
00:56:13.500 --> 00:56:15.840
You would remount something and bring someone back.

1185
00:56:15.900 --> 00:56:20.460
You know, you'll bring Vincent Van Koch back for the finale for

1186
00:56:20.460 --> 00:56:21.780
the season finale or something.

1187
00:56:21.840 --> 00:56:24.360
I mean, that's what makes it a celebration of the year as well.

1188
00:56:24.420 --> 00:56:26.699
Captain the ship in Curse of the Blacksport.

1189
00:56:26.760 --> 00:56:27.719
Well, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1190
00:56:27.780 --> 00:56:31.320
And we get the shots of all of the big rubber monsters of the era

1191
00:56:31.320 --> 00:56:33.420
celebrating.

1192
00:56:33.420 --> 00:56:36.119
The quarks, the terrifying quarks that we were trying to make

1193
00:56:36.119 --> 00:56:36.360
happen.

1194
00:56:37.079 --> 00:56:41.340
We could only go with season 6, some sort of contractual thing.

1195
00:56:41.400 --> 00:56:43.019
But I mean, that was all good.

1196
00:56:43.019 --> 00:56:43.980
Where were the croton?

1197
00:56:44.039 --> 00:56:45.480
Yeah, where were the crotons?

1198
00:56:45.539 --> 00:56:46.860
But all of that stuff was really great.

1199
00:56:46.920 --> 00:56:48.539
It's like a proper celebration of the era.

1200
00:56:48.599 --> 00:56:52.739
It really, really properly does do what a regeneration story will

1201
00:56:52.739 --> 00:56:54.179
kind of go on to do.

1202
00:56:54.239 --> 00:56:55.500
And the next one doesn't do.

1203
00:56:55.559 --> 00:56:59.699
And what a modern finale does, which explains why new series fans

1204
00:56:59.699 --> 00:57:01.980
are so partial to the ball games.

1205
00:57:02.039 --> 00:57:06.599
It's also, I think, just, again, we can't sing Terence's praises

1206
00:57:06.599 --> 00:57:07.079
enough.

1207
00:57:07.139 --> 00:57:09.239
He doesn't get enough credit for these things.

1208
00:57:09.300 --> 00:57:12.119
The cyclical nature of the storytelling.

1209
00:57:12.179 --> 00:57:16.860
So not only do you have Jamie forgetting everything's happening

1210
00:57:16.860 --> 00:57:20.219
going back and facing a red coat and attacking him, that mirrors

1211
00:57:20.219 --> 00:57:23.280
what happens in episode 2 where the red coat comes into the cell.

1212
00:57:23.340 --> 00:57:26.639
And Jamie, with everything that he's learned from the doctor

1213
00:57:26.639 --> 00:57:30.900
approaches this redcoat with kindness and empathy to try to build

1214
00:57:30.900 --> 00:57:31.739
a bridge with him.

1215
00:57:31.739 --> 00:57:35.760
Same thing with the trial at the end where the doctor is just

1216
00:57:35.760 --> 00:57:39.119
basically facing his own people who've made up their minds.

1217
00:57:39.179 --> 00:57:42.059
Nothing he's going to say will influence that is just like the

1218
00:57:42.059 --> 00:57:43.199
trial in the 1st episode.

1219
00:57:43.260 --> 00:57:44.219
Yeah, yeah.

1220
00:57:44.219 --> 00:57:46.860
You know, Terrence does not get enough credit for the cleverness

1221
00:57:46.860 --> 00:57:47.579
of this stuff.

1222
00:57:47.639 --> 00:57:51.119
I actually think something he says does land in the trial because

1223
00:57:51.119 --> 00:57:52.739
I think they are convinced.

1224
00:57:52.800 --> 00:57:55.739
You know, they say we're convinced that you still have a role to

1225
00:57:55.739 --> 00:57:59.699
play in fighting evil and that's not something that we time lords

1226
00:57:59.699 --> 00:57:59.940
do.

1227
00:58:00.000 --> 00:58:01.800
And the doctor kind of gets.

1228
00:58:01.860 --> 00:58:05.400
I mean, you know, like these people with godlike power on the

1229
00:58:05.400 --> 00:58:09.840
doctor's one of them, but he's this little kind of scruffy person

1230
00:58:09.900 --> 00:58:13.920
you know, sort of shambolic kind of scraped through with 51%.

1231
00:58:13.980 --> 00:58:17.699
Yeah, yeah. that's been sort of cast out of this race of godlike

1232
00:58:17.699 --> 00:58:18.539
entities.

1233
00:58:18.599 --> 00:58:23.400
That's an amazing, an amazing insight into his character now, and

1234
00:58:23.400 --> 00:58:25.199
I don't think it ruins it in any way.

1235
00:58:25.260 --> 00:58:26.039
It's great.

1236
00:58:26.099 --> 00:58:30.719
And also having like trout and swirling head, body thing like fake

1237
00:58:30.780 --> 00:58:31.739
making me giddy.

1238
00:58:31.800 --> 00:58:32.400
Yeah.

1239
00:58:32.400 --> 00:58:35.519
But we don't have a definitive sort of here's the next person

1240
00:58:35.519 --> 00:58:38.039
which is very unique in Classic Who.

1241
00:58:38.099 --> 00:58:40.139
Yeah, because we had already been cast.

1242
00:58:40.199 --> 00:58:42.360
Oh, is this 3 weeks before?

1243
00:58:42.420 --> 00:58:45.960
They should have had him change into Jacqueline Hill.

1244
00:59:18.480 --> 00:59:20.880
Well, that's all the time we have for this week.

1245
00:59:20.940 --> 00:59:22.079
We'll be back next week.

1246
00:59:22.139 --> 00:59:25.739
Skipping over Terence's tenure as Doctor Who's group editor to

1247
00:59:25.739 --> 00:59:30.239
discuss his first solo writing credit on the show, Tom Baker's

1248
00:59:30.239 --> 00:59:32.159
debut story, Robot.

1249
00:59:32.219 --> 00:59:35.400
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts

1250
00:59:35.400 --> 00:59:39.360
and you can keep up with us on our website, 500yearDiary.com, where

1251
00:59:39.360 --> 00:59:42.480
you'll find our social media links, as well as links to all of our

1252
00:59:42.480 --> 00:59:46.619
other podcasts, including our other Doctor Who podcasts, flight

1253
00:59:46.619 --> 00:59:50.099
through entirety, and the 2nd great and bountiful Human Empire.

1254
00:59:50.579 --> 00:59:54.599
Until next time, remember that you don't actually have to do what

1255
00:59:54.599 --> 00:59:58.320
your manager tells you to do unless they've got their monocle on.

1256
00:59:58.380 --> 01:00:00.960
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

1257
01:00:01.019 --> 01:00:02.340
Ta-ta.

1258
01:00:02.400 --> 01:00:03.119
See you soon.

1259
01:00:03.179 --> 01:00:03.719
Good night.

1260
01:00:13.679 --> 01:00:18.300
That was 500 Year Diary, starring Todd Bealby, Nathan Bottomley

1261
01:00:18.300 --> 01:00:19.800
Peter Griffith, and James Selwood.

1262
01:00:19.860 --> 01:00:22.139
The theme was composed by Cameron Lamb.

1263
01:00:22.199 --> 01:00:25.679
This episode, Boys Own Cliffhangers, was recorded on the 2nd of

1264
01:00:25.679 --> 01:00:29.219
November 2025 and released on the 23rd of November.

1265
01:00:32.639 --> 01:00:36.659
The fact that World War I is the most recent war in the wargames

1266
01:00:36.659 --> 01:00:39.539
lends more evidence to my theory that this story takes place on

1267
01:00:39.539 --> 01:00:44.400
the 8th of December, 1926, which is also the date that the unicorn

1268
01:00:44.400 --> 01:00:47.639
and the wasp is set, along with the savages, the web planet, and

1269
01:00:47.639 --> 01:00:48.360
Galaxy 4.

1270
01:00:48.599 --> 01:00:51.119
Ask Andrew Pixley if you don't believe me.

1271
01:01:00.179 --> 01:01:01.679
What do you think?

1272
01:01:01.739 --> 01:01:03.900
We one hour and seven minutes in, I think.

1273
01:01:04.019 --> 01:01:06.000
I'd like to talk about James Brie, quite frankly.

1274
01:01:06.059 --> 01:01:08.219
I would say, hang on.

1275
01:01:08.280 --> 01:01:10.739
Well, just before we talk about it, James B. one more thing.

1276
01:01:10.800 --> 01:01:11.219
Okay.

1277
01:01:11.280 --> 01:01:13.559
Also, let's not forget.

1278
01:01:13.619 --> 01:01:15.659
Terence is incredibly bloodthirsty.

1279
01:01:15.840 --> 01:01:19.380
And this story is incredibly bloodthirsty.

1280
01:01:19.440 --> 01:01:23.340
Not only would sort of the enormous numbers of deaths that happen

1281
01:01:23.340 --> 01:01:26.880
off screen, but the enormous numbers of deaths on screen.

1282
01:01:26.940 --> 01:01:29.460
People are gunned down continuously.

1283
01:01:29.460 --> 01:01:30.960
That's very Terence.

1284
01:01:31.019 --> 01:01:33.239
So this is where you like it, Todd.

1285
01:01:33.300 --> 01:01:34.860
Of course.

1286
01:01:35.400 --> 01:01:38.280
But there's, you know, people survive as well.

1287
01:01:38.340 --> 01:01:40.980
It's not everybody's killed, but we need to talk about James

1288
01:01:40.980 --> 01:01:41.579
Bray.

1289
01:01:41.639 --> 01:01:42.840
I think we do too.

1290
01:01:45.059 --> 01:01:47.099
What glowing terms.

1291
01:01:47.159 --> 01:01:49.860
What a stupid fool, you are.

1292
01:01:49.860 --> 01:01:51.300
I think he's superb.

1293
01:01:52.139 --> 01:01:58.199
I think canonically he is somehow he's the same person as the

1294
01:01:58.199 --> 01:01:59.099
keeper of the Matrix.

1295
01:01:59.159 --> 01:02:01.920
I haven't quite worked out. he's also the same person as you.

1296
01:02:01.980 --> 01:02:06.420
You've had all conversation between us recorded.

1297
01:02:08.940 --> 01:02:12.000
I mean, it's such a great performance.

1298
01:02:12.059 --> 01:02:16.920
So you've got these 3 very, very different performances. among

1299
01:02:16.920 --> 01:02:20.159
those, the 3 lead villains.

1300
01:02:20.219 --> 01:02:24.300
And, and, like, James Brady, I don't think is failing.

1301
01:02:24.360 --> 01:02:25.619
Like I don't think he's nothing.

1302
01:02:25.679 --> 01:02:29.039
He's, you know, he's, I think he's setting out to do that.

1303
01:02:29.280 --> 01:02:34.800
And he's introducing the weird over-annunciation thing that Edward

1304
01:02:34.800 --> 01:02:39.780
Brayshaw then picks up on and delivers some of as the war chief.

1305
01:02:39.840 --> 01:02:43.500
And like, this is a planet of people wearing glasses. isn't it?

1306
01:02:43.559 --> 01:02:47.159
Like the planet of evil people wearing glasses, like me.

1307
01:02:47.219 --> 01:02:53.579
He's obviously training, like, like, um, um, Smythe, Fon Worth or

1308
01:02:53.579 --> 01:02:54.360
whatever his name is.

1309
01:02:54.420 --> 01:02:58.800
Yeah, and a lesser story, Smythe would be the amazing head villain

1310
01:02:58.800 --> 01:02:59.099
piece.

1311
01:02:59.159 --> 01:03:01.199
He's got 3 brilliant villains above it.

1312
01:03:01.260 --> 01:03:03.360
It's interesting that you've got those minor villains within the

1313
01:03:03.360 --> 01:03:06.420
walls from white, and then you go up a notch.

1314
01:03:06.480 --> 01:03:07.559
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1315
01:03:07.619 --> 01:03:08.460
Amazing.

1316
01:03:08.519 --> 01:03:11.340
I have to say the 1st time I ever encountered the only time I've

1317
01:03:11.340 --> 01:03:15.780
ever encountered James Bre was at a convention in Southampton in

1318
01:03:15.780 --> 01:03:20.880
1995 and I walked into the room and the hall was filled with

1319
01:03:20.880 --> 01:03:21.360
children.

1320
01:03:21.360 --> 01:03:23.760
And James Bre was up on the stage.

1321
01:03:23.820 --> 01:03:26.820
I walked in, all these adoring children on the calculator just to

1322
01:03:26.820 --> 01:03:28.739
hear him say, size queen.

1323
01:03:29.099 --> 01:03:33.360
I thought you would have walked in and he would have said, what a

1324
01:03:33.360 --> 01:03:36.300
stupid fool you are.

1325
01:03:36.840 --> 01:03:39.239
But no, oh, James Bree.

1326
01:03:39.300 --> 01:03:42.719
I mean, he's just he's fundamentally classic Doctor Who for me

1327
01:03:42.719 --> 01:03:46.800
because not only do you have him being amazing in this story, but

1328
01:03:46.800 --> 01:03:48.780
you also have him in full circle.

1329
01:03:48.840 --> 01:03:51.659
I have seen the system files.

1330
01:03:51.719 --> 01:03:53.159
He's wonderful.

1331
01:03:53.219 --> 01:03:54.420
Also have him.

1332
01:03:54.480 --> 01:03:55.260
And of course.

1333
01:03:55.320 --> 01:03:57.059
Trial of a timelord.

1334
01:03:57.119 --> 01:03:58.139
The matrix.

1335
01:03:58.440 --> 01:04:00.059
Matrix.

1336
01:04:00.239 --> 01:04:01.920
It's great.

1337
01:04:02.940 --> 01:04:06.420
But under the hands of a lesser director.

1338
01:04:06.719 --> 01:04:10.019
That part could have gotten an actor.

1339
01:04:10.079 --> 01:04:12.480
The part could have just gotten totally out of control.

1340
01:04:12.539 --> 01:04:14.639
No, I mean, it's so memorable.

1341
01:04:14.699 --> 01:04:15.599
It's so terrific.

1342
01:04:15.659 --> 01:04:18.239
It's such a great counterpoint against the like the warlord when

1343
01:04:18.239 --> 01:04:21.119
he eventually turns up, but even the war chief, who is much more

1344
01:04:21.119 --> 01:04:24.239
chill, a little bit more naturalistic, not playing it quite so big

1345
01:04:24.239 --> 01:04:28.260
and who therefore thinks that the security chief is an idiot, and

1346
01:04:28.260 --> 01:04:29.519
he's kind of right.

1347
01:04:29.639 --> 01:04:31.500
Look, it just works.

1348
01:04:31.559 --> 01:04:32.760
And it's like this story.

1349
01:04:32.820 --> 01:04:36.960
Everything. just works The whole universe of the story works.

1350
01:04:37.019 --> 01:04:43.199
And I think James Bre is like Peter Miles in that they know

1351
01:04:43.199 --> 01:04:46.199
exactly how to pinch a Doctor Who performs.

1352
01:04:46.260 --> 01:04:47.760
They get it exactly right.

1353
01:04:47.880 --> 01:04:49.260
You would not call it naturalistic.

1354
01:04:49.320 --> 01:04:51.960
Oh, by any...

1355
01:04:51.960 --> 01:04:56.639
But they know exactly where to pitch it, to make it this beautiful

1356
01:04:56.639 --> 01:04:58.980
piece of work. wonderful.