Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to 500 Year Diary, the only
Doctor Who podcast that stole a portable recorder and a bunch of
microphones, and went off to criticise the universe.
The universe is so tiresome.
I'm Nathan.
I'm James.
I'm Todd.
What is your name?
My name is Peter.
Well, it's the 19th of April, 1969.
Tonight sees the broadcast of the 1st episode of a story that will
change or challenge or cancel the show that we've come to love
over the past 5.5 years.
A couple of scripts have fallen through.
Pat, Wendy, and Fraser are all leaving, and the show is going off
in a new direction.
And so Doctor Who script editor, Terence Dix, has come up with a
solution.
Collaborating with his mentor, Malcolm Hulk, to write a 10 part
epic culminating in the introduction of the doctor's people and
his exile to the planet Earth.
So what does Terence Dix bring to the program?
As writer, script editor, novelist, and crazy uncle Terence, and
what is his legacy?
Let's start looking for an answer to these questions as we discuss
the war games.
Just to get this out of the way, I was born a very, very few hours
away from the 1st airing of episode 2 of the War Games, so I'm the
only Trout and Baby here, and it came as a very pleasant surprise
to me watching it this time round that it's actually pretty
great.
That means in Australia, you were probably born around about a
repeat of the ice warriors.
Probably, probably.
I haven't checked actually.
Let's just start by talking about the production generally before
we move on to talking about the script and Terence's
contribution.
I'll just say that I am mostly in Doctor Who for the monsters.
And so I have always felt that this was overlong and a bit dull.
But this time, I just thought it was magnificent.
Yes, it's magnificent.
I've always liked this story.
There are no monsters.
Like, where's the slither?
Bring back ter Nation, I say.
But the whole production, like the World War I setting and the use
of, didn't they use the sets of another production that?
I think they did, yeah.
It just occurred.
I thought they just taken the rubbish to Brighton and decided to
film that.
No, this was a location. previous thing.
Yes, that's it.
But the fact that it keeps up the pace all the way through, and
you're getting new information every few episodes really helps.
I think I think maybe it kind of sags a little bit around about
episode five. where we get sort of David Trown and stuff, but
otherwise I think, yes, it's absolutely amazing.
And I was careful to watch it an episode at a time.
And so to have it be this thing that Doctor Who does for 2.5
months is actually really what's happening and that's kind of
great.
I watched it in 25 episode blocks and it was equally good.
I think there is an all-time best 8 parter in this story.
And as it is, it's pretty great, but you could probably stand to
lose, I would say, most of the Civil War segments and maybe
Archuro Villa, and then it would be absolutely stonkingly good, but
as it is, it's amazing.
And I think Doctor Who does Epic so few times in its history, in
the original series, I think you'd probably count the Daleks
master plan, for obvious reasons, Legopolis, for the stakes, and
maybe Genesis of the Daleks, because of what that does as well.
But this is one of them.
Not only do you have series changing developments, but its length
and the scope of the villainy just make it something really
special.
And I think that means that its reputation in recent years has
skyrocketed.
So if you look at the 3 Doctor Who magazine polls, which have
looked at every story and ranks them in order.
It sort of came in in like the 20s in the mighty 200 and 2009.
But as new fans came aboard and started to watch it, and it
presses all those buttons with the end of season extravaganza, and
you know, the epic finale, all that kind of thing, it's risen and
risen.
So last time in 2023, even though they didn't print the entire
rankings, we know what they are, it cracked the top 10 and was by
far the most popular charting story.
Wow.
What did you think, James?
I loved it.
I think I loved it as a child.
But then in the intervening time, fan wisdom kind of intervened
and I never really went back to it.
But watching it, watching it now, I was hooked.
I actually had to eke it out.
I watched a couple of episodes a day for about for about a week.
Um, and yeah, it's just, I don't see, I don't see where this is
boring and over long and a bit tedious came from.
Yeah, I think maybe I identify different bits.
Like, I think once Arturo Villa comes along that lifts it a bit
because now we have an actual purpose.
Like the resistance is now trying to break into the base.
And you're also back in the one really good war.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, there's that too.
Gosh, that's set.
That whole thing, the 1st World War thing.
I mean, it's obviously, you know, black out of the fall.
In lots of ways, you know, there's a chateau and all of that.
But this is the 1st time Doctor Who's done.
Recent history, that people living would be watching this and
identifying with it.
Every other historical up to this point is further back than
that.
Yes.
Well, there was plenty of people who'd been to Tibet in 1935.
Don't forget that.
I mean, I think like, I'm probably jumping ahead a bit, but I
think that episode one is possibly the best episode, and I think
that the reason that it's so good is precisely what you identify.
This is real history and it's real history that's important to the
viewers.
And because at this point, Doctor Who can't do the Second World
War.
It's too recent and too raw. thought about doing it and then had
jettisoned the idea.
Yeah, okay.
Yeah.
No, I'm not surprised.
And so that sort of stands as a proxy.
I think for the 2nd World War because it's a war in Europe against
the Germans.
And suddenly the doctor's shtick doesn't work in this
environment.
Like nothing that the doctor does.
You know, there's the moment where Zoe tries to break him out of
the prison in episode one and he just ends up immediately facing
the guy and being.
Oh, what a good and clever girl.
Yes.
Yeah, yeah.
All of that stuff, you know, none of his talk works, nothing
works.
It's it's like Caves of Andrazani.
It is like a regeneration story.
None of the doctor's Doctor Who stuff works at all and it
culminates with him facing a firing squad.
What I also love about it is we find out as the audience really
quite early on, there's something else going on.
I don't think Zoe.
And then the doctor find out until midway towards the end of
episode 2 that this isn't just them stuck in the 1st World War.
But we find out as an audience when Smythe goes into his office
somewhere in episode one.
Yeah.
So we are we are in the know when the main characters are not.
And that really sort of wrongfoots them for quite a long time
until she discovers the screen in the office.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
I want to go back to what you were saying there, Nathan.
There's a feeling of desperation throughout Doctor Who Epics, and
this is one of them, where things go wrong from the off.
Now, even though this is 10 episodes, episode one is a belter of
an episode, we're 3 minutes in.
They've already met Lieutenant Carstairs, Lady Jennifer, and been
waylaid by the Germans.
That's 3 minutes into the 1st episode of a 10 episode story.
But this doctor is used to fighting lumbering monsters.
When you take those out, his shtick doesn't work.
Because against the banality of evil that we have in this story
against human atrocity and, you know, the situation he's in, but
also the plan of the warlord people, that's something that he
isn't equipped to fight.
And so, you know, he has to look for help.
But yeah, there's a real feeling of desperation and of growing
panic in Troughton's performance.
And I think in episode one where it is mostly just the 1st World
War.
And even the thing that we see that James mentioned, where Smythe
kind of hypnotises the guy.
He's just doing it with eyeglasses and as he's the way you do it.
That's it.
But he's not doing it with a space ray or anything like that, you
know, it's still kind of period appropriate.
And of course, that was the kind of power that senior officers
have that the chain of command has.
They just tell you what to believe and you have to believe it.
They tell you what to do and you have to do it. especially in
World War I, where you still had aristocrats as the officers
sending basically the working classes cannon fodder.
That's right.
And one thing that we will get to is I think that this story is
surprisingly political, given sort of Terence's kind of stated
political opinions, in the future, I think that it is very
strongly anti-war and very interesting when it comes to talking
about class.
But you know, I think Terence is surprisingly political.
Because, you know, even though he had a healthy sense of humour
about things.
He once described the Nazis to me as watching incredible gang of
cooks, which, you know, is fair understatements of what the Nazis
were.
I think he actually had a very strongly defined moral centre, and
one of the hallmarks of his writing, which we will return to, is
that the doctor has a very strong moral centre.
So throughout this story, Troughton, who is not, his doctor is not
given to overstatement, uses words like disgusting, disgraceful to
talk about the warlord's plans.
He's really animated about it.
It's really quite striking.
And I do think that that 1st World War set and all of that is
better, you know, that sort of tedious Civil War barn or
whatever.
No, no, it sets it up really well, like it's so strong at the
beginning and that just permeates through those 1st 8 episodes.
Yeah.
The other thing too is I was kind of surprised by how quickly we
were in the base and the base...
Yeah, the bass is amazingly great.
Holy crap, it's well designed.
And you can see why they wanted to do a colorised version because
it is so kind of pop art and stuff.
But for me, it's just the perfect black and white television set
where it has matte surfaces and reflective surfaces that has
things that are see-through and things that are patterned, things
that are unbelievably 60s.
You know, you're kind of getting...
It's a final flapping around.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Those funny corridors that they go through that aren't really
corridors.
They just set up, you know?
Yeah, all the negative space.
Just negative space.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
All the Warhol style kind of...
In space again until full circle.
And then you get to California and it's quite boring.
But then you have that weird...
No, no, no, but by comparison, visually.
But then you get that wonderful running through the cement
walkways in the middle of the dry ice with the flapping pieces of
PVC.
Yeah, yeah.
It's like the garden that was out the back of the Draconian place
in frontier in space.
I mean, I just think that looks unbelievably great.
And the glasses are of a piece with that.
Like the whole thing is so pop art and so fantastic.
Just unbelievable.
I think, in fact, like, I actually think that this is the best
version of Gamma fray that we ever get at the end of it.
I think it looks really great.
I would have loved to have seen. partial to the 3 doctors.
Yeah, yeah, that is not that is an incredible game show set. ruling
the universe from, isn't it?
With cement, sort of slab walls with the little floaty squares on
the top of little poles.
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Waving about.
It's unbelievable See, the reason it's so good is the director.
Dave Maloney has a vision for this story and you can see it
throughout the 10 episodes.
These epics only work when you get someone like David Maloney on
this story or Dougie Canfield on the Daleks master plan who can
see from the start to the end and create this entire sweep of a
story.
So the design ethos is incredibly strong.
What else has he directed up to this point?
The crotons?
Well, there's a vision for that.
And the mind dropber.
Yeah, okay.
Well, man, yeah, yeah.
Isn't that funny?
The 2 episodes that we watched here in Australia, the 2 trout and
episodes that we actually got to see on TV at our age, the crotons
in the mind, Robert.
That's pretty incredible.
I also think that the Time Lord Planet is good because it's only
in that one episode.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, we're not overdoing it.
But he gets all of those moments right as well.
So that incredible scene in episode nine, and this is vastly aided
by Philip Maddock, of course, where the doctor has made good his
escape, and the warlord just catches himself, and that sound
effect comes in of the wind, and he just says, they're coming.
That's an incredible moment in the drama.
And if that had been overplayed or shot differently.
It wouldn't have had so much impact, but Maloney knows what he's
doing.
He's really good.
I mean, he is really great.
Who would have thought, by the way, that the one director would
direct 2 stories that opened with the doctor and his companions
coming out onto a planetary landscape and having to hide from an
artillery attack?
Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Same opening to 2 stories?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I mean, he goes on to be just incredibly reliable.
I don't think we've talked about him enough on FTE.
He's a great director.
The other thing that I think is really striking is just how
incredibly strong the cliffhangers are.
The Cliffhanger to episode one, we've already talked about where
the doctor gets shot, the Cliffhanger of episode 2, where we see
the Romans suddenly.
There's heaps of cliffhangers that involve a development in the
plot rather than peril, like some new exciting thing happening, but
the peril is also really excellent.
And even when it is just peril, they're these wonderful boy zone
cliffhangers, which you just see Terence chortling over like the
walls of the walls kind of closing in on them.
They've just taken that.
Fantastic.
It's really well done, isn't it?
There is a fabulous one where someone's about to be shot and then
someone walks in at the beginning of the next episode and puts a
stop to it.
Terrence was a great fan of Raymond Chandler and those kind of
thrillers, and so he subscribed to that kind of ethos of if the
action slows down, Have a man with a gun walk into the room.
Speaking about the cliffhanger with the Sid rat crushing them.
I love the denim of that, which is just so simple, and boy's own
which is the doctor comes out with a smoke bomb in his hand, drops
it, and then steals the controls and runs back in.
I mean, there are plenty of instances in this story of them
failing to get the thing they want running around a bit and then
coming back to get the thing they want.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Which I'm on board for.
That's great There is a little bit of that.
There's the one where we sort of put Zoe into one of the transport
machines and then the doctor goes, oh, no, I have to go back and
get the processing thing and it just seems to be why we're doing
this?
And then they take it away and then the security chief comes and
gets the processing.
Lots of talking urgently in negative space.
Yeah, exactly.
I also think too that there is, and I blame Terrence for this, I
think, because this is going to be a thing going forward.
Terrence is obviously more interested in having women in the show
than either Terry Nation or Bob Holmes, but he's not particularly
interested in having women in the show.
And I am absolutely, still terribly cross that Lady Jennifer only
gets 5 episodes and then we, she just disappears to go off and
look after some union soldiers or something at the end of episode
five.
It's a shame that there's no women in the warlord.
Yeah, you know, that would have been good just to sort of have a
balance, but it is one thing in there that you notice that it's
only Zoe and Lady Jennifer.
Yeah.
But I also think, you know, Terrence is co-writing this with
Malcolm, and I think sometimes that's a good thing to bounce off
ideas and actually, you know, just it just helps hone what is
going down, you know what I mean?
We can't we can't underestimate his contribution to this.
I mean, Terence told me that they had about 20 days to write the
10 episodes.
And he'd met Mac Hulk because Terrence started in copywriting and
one of his friends there got married and was moving out of his
rooms in Hampstead and said to Terrence, do you want these rooms?
Terence said, yes, went along, and Mac Hulk and his great aunt or
something owned the house.
So he got to meet.
We got to meet this strange little balding man, as he described
them, just round and about the place.
They became friends.
They were like Terence and Barry Lett in that their affinity was
very close, but they focussed on different things and they had
different politics.
And so we asked Mac Holt to come on board and help him.
And apparently what they did was they just spent 20 days living
together would get together in the morning, hash some ideas out
for whatever episode they were about to start.
Mac would sit at the typewriter because he was a very fast touch
typist and just commit everything they were talking about to paper
while Terence kind of marched up and down, just chortling to
himself and having these ideas.
So that was basically the way that it worked.
I think this is very strongly Terence.
I think the morality aspect is what we'll come to expect from Mac
Hulk during the Pertwi years, but all of this feels very Terrency
to me.
Because, I mean, it is that thing we identified before about
officers and just normal enlisted man and the class thing and the
way that that gets kind of turned into this thing where all of the
wars in human history are being run by people who have their own
evil agenda, who are tricking the people below them into fighting
for patriotic reasons or other personal. reasons.
Literally using them as pawns.
Exactly.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I think that's really, really striking and much, much more
political than I would normally expect from Terrence.
It does sound like a kind of Marxist reading of things, which it
may actually be from Mac Hulk was, in fact, very, very left wing.
I'm not sure if he was a Marxist or not.
I suspected that he was, but they had some crossover in that in
that Terence had a great aversion to tyranny, authoritarianism.
And that shines through not only in his own writing, but in the
per we era as well.
Just the sheer kind of horror of that court martial in episode one
where it's just clearly everyone's lying and nothing can be done.
And like Zoe is kind of apoplectic, she can't believe that this is
what's going on.
I'm Zoe.
Like, I'm there going, 0 my goodness.
Like, I can't believe what's happening.
And it's, as you said, like, there's just this impending sort of
doom or dread, like, you know, the shtick isn't working.
It's set up right there at the beginning and it just keeps on
flowing.
Episode two, which is probably the 1st episode broadcast into a
world where I'm there.
The shtick starts working again, and I am a little bit
disappointed, but I'm glad that they did what they did in episode
one.
Clearly the doctor, you know, in episode 2 goes to the military
prison and pretends to be some guy and all of his bluster and
normal stuff is working once again.
Until it doesn't, of course.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But you see again, building on top of the morality.
I think that's very Terence flavoured.
Terrence's conception of the doctor is someone who bamboozles
their opponents.
And so he gets that shtick like in episode 2 where he pretends to
be the visiting dignitary to the prison.
Also, all of the scenes with the chief scientist on the warlord
planet, where he just every time he meets him, he's tricking him
in some hilarious way.
And so there's a lot of comedy in that.
And you'll see it again and again in stories like Robot and states
him to Kay and particularly the 5 doctors, where the doctor is
hilarious.
And I think that's one of the keys to Doctor Who, is that no
matter what dire situation they're in, there's humour in there.
And that chief scientist, I just laugh my head up every single
time.
Every single time, like they keep coming back to him and he's just
getting tricked and then when he gets put in his machine.
I'm just, leave him on simmer.
That's so great But, you know, like if you had 4 episodes, you
wouldn't have time to develop that character and just have that
bit of comedy running through what is a very dire situation.
And the 3rd tie that the doctor encounters him.
He just comes into frame while the chief scientist sort of looks
up at him slowly.
That's amazing That's Vernon Dobchev, by the way.
He's 91 and still with us.
Oh, wonderful.
And he just looks up at him as he walks in and it's like, hello.
That is fabulous.
He's amazing.
He's also very good in the Blake 7 episode Shadow.
Ah, of course.
Yes.
But this is a case of you're only as strong as your weakest link
you know, and if you cast well.
And the characters are written well, then you know, you're going
to have a good production.
Yeah, I mean, the characters are not very strongly drawn, are
they?
And there's Russell, I think, who ends up being a pretty important
guy, and that's a great performance, and he is pretty good, but I
couldn't tell you anything about him very much as a person.
Love thy neighbour guy is really good.
What's his name?
Rudolph Walker.
He's so hot too.
What an attractive young man he was.
But it goes back to what we're saying about Terence and Boyzone.
He writes characters with broad strokes, but recognisable.
And so anyone who'd read a boy's own manual would know Lieutenant
Carstairs immediately.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
But isn't that a bit like RTD?
He does broad characters that are recognisable to current
audiences and you get to know them very, very quickly.
And I think in this, like, Terrence is the same thing. these
characters suddenly through the performance and through the broad
strokes suddenly come to life and you recognise them.
Let's think about the guy who runs the military president in
episode 2, who likes boring people about, or, you know, there's a
there's something that happens in the chateau as well, where
someone's talking about the arrival of supplies or something like
that.
Like someone's boring someone.
Boring lady Jennifer.
Please tell me more about the outposts.
Tell me more about the 100 shovels.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Wonderful shovels, of course.
Just absolute genius.
So, so good.
And of course, being Terrence, you have to get the moment where as
he leaves.
He says, not often people take an interest in this kind of thing.
It's nice to meet someone who does.
So good.
Just so tremendous.
Just terrific style.
All of those walk on characters are amazing, including the one who
keeps almost coming across them, blowing up the door to the safe
and they can't get rid of.
So you just get these walk-ons who are amazing.
Also, the thing that makes this story fill its length is not that
there's one brilliant villain, but 3 brilliant villains all
bouncing off each other.
There's endless scenes with just the villains and it's amazing.
Yeah, I mean, I think the soldiers and things, because it goes on
for a bunch of time, even the very small parts, they get a lot to
do, because you've got 10 episodes or 9 episodes of those soldiers
we do get to know them quite well.
I do want to shout out to Harper because Harper's our 1st union
soldier that we meet and he's black, which I think, you know
that's not a given for Doctor Who in this period.
And he's smart.
He's the 1st person that we properly meet, isn't he that's part of
the resistance. knows what's going on.
And I think that that resistance thing.
That element where people start to twig to what's really going on
that these wars aren't the wars that they signed up for, that
they're not fighting for what they thought they were fighting.
Like again, I think that that's an incredibly strong idea.
And the fact that their knowledge of this enables them to
transcend the space restrictions between the various time zones.
It might be the very 1st instance in Doctor of a perception
filter.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I can't see the screen until I can see it until I focus on it.
That's right.
It's so good.
And that setting as well.
We've had nothing at all like that setting, particularly not in
this era where we're in the base and rubber monsters are attacking
us and that's basically the premise of a whole heap of the era.
This is completely different from that.
We've never had a planet or an environment as weird and artificial
as this.
You know, this is, you know, it's not Doctor Who, on the planet in
space.
Like there's a home planet.
We don't know what it's called.
There's this planet.
We don't know what it's called.
It's divided into these zones that are separated by some kind of
time barrier, which seems like fog or whatever.
It's an absolutely weird and fantastical environment of a kind
that we haven't seen.
And Terence actually returns to that idea with the death zone.
Five doctors, the way that it's sort of segmented.
What I find really odd, though, is why do we have the time concept
in there?
Sure, we've got time travel to get these various different groups
of soldiers from Earth, but why is the planet divided into time
zones?
I don't think it is.
I think they call them time barriers when they think that they're
travelling in time, but what they are is just a perception barrier
so that you can't get between the different segments.
And I think we need to introduce the idea of time.
We're going to talk a little bit about how, you know, the big
reveal about who the doctor's people are, how that's handled, but
it is seeded quite early, I think.
Terence and Malcolm Hulk know where this story is going.
What they're not doing really is making it up as they go along.
They know the endpoint, I think.
Oh, I think they got the entire story in mind.
They just don't quite know how many episodes are going to go in
between.
That's right.
Yeah.
But there's a very clear endpoint, and I do think that they do a
setup that requires someone with time travel technology to be
involved in running it so that... right.
I mean, yes, you know, you can see why those plot reasons are
there.
I also think that the warlords are sort of set up as an antithesis
at the time, like they're an elemental force almost in a way, and
the time lords are definitely an elemental force in this story.
They have so much control over time and the universe and
everything.
I mean, it's even in the name, the warlord.
Yeah, yeah.
You've got the time lords and the warlord.
And Warlord is clever, isn't it?
Because it's just a normal word.
Like a warlord is a thing, but he's the warlord, 2 words, you know
pronounce that way, and he does seem to be in opposition to the
time lords.
And obviously we never go back there because we never properly
come back to this, except in the 5 doctors, as you said.
I think it's very important to notice well that the War Games gets
a lot right that the Trout and era as a whole gets wrong.
Yeah, okay.
So when we visited kind of a recognisable earth mostly during the
trout and era, it's always been this kind of heightened reality.
It's been Earth 5 minutes in the future.
It's been enemy of the world with that strange geopolitical setup
or it's been the invasion, which is recognisable, but has all of
these kind of like developments which 1968 Britain didn't have.
World War one, as you said before, was entirely recognisable to
people through media.
They've seen endless films and TV and documentaries on the subject
and it was within living memory.
So I think grounding the story initially in that is a new and
different thing for the trout era.
When it then pivots to being an alien world story.
Think about the alien worlds that we've had in the trout era.
They're pretty dull as a bunch.
It's the dominators and the crotons.
And, you know, dry space stations like the wheel in space.
This is an effort to create an alien environment that is
interesting and different and has a complete aesthetic to it.
And so it's a story that sets out to do both of those things and
gets them both right where the era sometimes hasn't. and has no
monsters.
There's no monsters.
Like all of those other space things have monsters appearing or
whatever here.
It's built on the warlord people and their motivations and their
leaders.
Well, I mean, that's why I kind of love it because it is so
different from the rest of the era.
But also it takes people who look like us and makes the monsters.
Well, they look like me.
Might look like you.
On a bad day.
I mean, Sandra sort of says it's like a base under siege in
reverse where we're trying to get into a base rather than
inhabiting a base that other people are trying to get.
The doctrine is companions to the monster.
Yeah.
Well, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
I think that you're right, that it does things that Doctor Who
hasn't done for the last 3 years.
And I think to that end, it is a little bit like the case of
Andrazani, which does something the Doctor Who hasn't done for a
few years, which is have a really excellent script.
Nathan.
I think that's overstating the case.
It may be overstating the case.
I do understand where you're coming from there.
But it has a bleak script in a way that we haven't quite had
before, and we've attempted to do this sort of thing in a shock
and resurrection of the Daleks, but suddenly we do it really
really well, and we dump the doctor in it, and he is his shtick
doesn't work in that environment.
And I think as well, people talk, obviously, about the invasion
and the web of fear being templates for the Pertwi era, and they
are.
But in another way, those opening episodes of the war games, but
that kind of gritty realism, you know, for Doctor Who. lets not
overstate it, is a template for what they then attempt to do with
the series.
Terrence knows the endpoint that the doctor's going to be exiled
to earth.
And like he's been, what, assistant script editor throughout this
season.
And so he's looking back at what's gone before and all of the
changes that are about to happen are within here.
Like he's he's really writing it to say, well, we are going in a
very different direction.
Yeah, I think that's right.
That level of realism.
I got the impression that he actually, I mean, he never said this
but reading between the lines.
I got the impression he didn't actually think that much of Peter
Bryan's and Derek Sherwin.
He said it was very difficult to get decisions out of them.
And so I think he knew he was taking over because they were both
off to shoot Paul Temple all around Europe and he knew Barry was
taking over and he was going to be the chief guy and I think he's
setting up the series as he wants it.
Right, okay.
Okay.
Is Barry on board?
Is he around at that point Barry doesn't come aboard until the
Silurians.
Okay.
So basically what you had was Peter Bryant is essentially producer
up until the space pirates.
Derek Sherwin takes over as producer for the War Games and
spearhead from space and then Barry's on board.
Yeah, okay.
Isn't Derek Sherwin ill or something?
Or why does he only do two?
I thought it was because he was unwell.
No, he wasn't unwell, but he was going to take over the series, but
then he got the offer to join Peter Bryant on Paul Temple.
And, you know, that was a colour action series on film.
Obviously something different.
And he wasn't. just completely embarrassed by his performance as
parking gone.
Are you talking about performances linked to the production?
Of course, Lady Jennifer is played by Derek Sherwin's wife, and it
continues the venerable tradition of having your spouse in the
show because Kaftan in Tomb and the Sideman is played by Peter
Bryant's wife.
And then, of course, next year, we'll go on to have Petra played
by the wife of the director.
Absolutely.
And let's not forget Gary Downey inside that track taker.
No less.
But back to what I was saying, like, he is seeing what's happening
he knows where everything's going, and he's slowly changing, well
not changing, refining the vision of the show to what we know it
to be.
It's already happened in the Trouton era at the end of Hartnell
where it's become Doctor Who, and we've discussed that before.
But now it's becoming more the show that the 4 of us in this room
grew up with.
Yeah, you know?
I find it really interesting going back to watch this because my
memory cheats, like, did I, did I read his novelisation first?
And also, having seen the Purgeware era, like, you know, what the
time loads are and all that sort of thing and the master, like, did
that sort of colour my vision of when I came into this, you know, I
can't put myself in that position of people watching it for the
1st time.
And then suddenly, oh, the Sidrats sound like the TARDIS or this
that must have blown kid's minds in 1968.
Well, just think about that cliffhanger in the time meddler, one
of the best cliffhangers in history where they look in and see, oh
my god, there's another TARDS.
It's amazing.
Just incredible.
And I do think that those capsules, which get called, the guy
pronounces it side rats.
And it only occurs once in dialogue, but let's call them Sidrants
because that's what we've always called them ever since then.
I think they're a genius idea and making them dimensionally
transcendental and making them have the TARDIS materialisation
noise.
And when their doors open, it has that 60s time.
Yeah, yeah, it's genius.
And it does have atmosphere.
It's not quite the TARDIS control room atmosphere, but there is
like a sound associated with being inside.
Then when you get back to the Time Lots home planet, they're there
as well. the same machine.
So it's very definitely poor copies of the original.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, let's talk about how all of that stuff gets gradually
ceded into the program.
The one thing that I noticed this time is that both, I think
definitely Zoe and maybe Jamie as well notice how capable the
doctor is of operating the technology here, and that's quite
early.
And they note it, and the doctor won't confirm it.
No, he is clearly aware. knows what the problem is.
It's very show don't tell.
Yeah, yeah.
It's great.
Like, it's, it's really well seated throughout the episode.
In fact, you'll have things like the doctor mucking around with
the control panel inside the, let's call it a side rat.
I just love his fucking around with those magnets and... so
great.
And here, and here, and here.
The cheap scientist says.
But Jamie says to him, it's just like potatoes.
And he doesn't respond.
No, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And then the other thing, which I think we did mention in our
flight through Entirety episode, is that moment where the war
chief recognises the doctor.
And it plays into that desperation thing.
We've never seen Troughton quite so panicked as when he screams at
Zoe to run.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like, that's incredible as well.
That's a huge moment.
And we forget that because, you know, he's running into Asmail or
Christ knows who. you know, like every other. story.
So that's astounding at the time, isn't it?
And so it does become clear that something's going on.
We get the time lords mentioned, are they mentioned in eight?
No, before that, possibly.
In fact, I think the chief scientist is the 1st person to mention
them.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I mean, that's quite incredible.
And it does up the stakes to a point where, like, how do you feel
about the Cliffhanger episode?
I guess it's a cliffhanger episode eight, isn't it?
Where the doctor betrays the resistance leaders to the war chief
or the security chief.
Well, see, you never quite believe that in Doc 2.
When you get an epic like this, where things are going off the
tracks and you're not quite sure where all this is going, who
knows?
Yeah, that's exactly right.
I think that that's it.
And I think also that even if we don't buy it, the doctor
pretending to betray his friends is enough of a departure from his
usual behaviour to be a shock.
So even if you are aware that he's just playing for time, why is
he doing this to them, it seems so unusual.
So that's amazing.
Like, I think that the time lords, like the scale of this threat
is like, nothing that we've ever seen before.
The shadow of the time rules.
Yeah, is really there in those last episodes.
Like you just feel it.
And like, as you mentioned earlier, that whole the wind and and
just them trying to get away and oh, even when he builds his
little box thing to send that.
There's something otherworldly about it.
Yeah, it's just...
They use force fields and they dematerialise people so that
they've never existed.
It's these weird ultra powerful things. like gods in Star Trek.
Yeah, yeah.
But you see, if they were truly gods in Star Trek, they would have
got the doctor to snog, Rudolph Walker.
They would not.
I'd watch that The mounting panic.
After Josh has put all of his experiences from the last 8 episodes
into the box and he's about to send it and then the resistance
fighters are having arguments with him and he's trying to get away
and you're like, let him go.
And then, and I'm, is it Russell, Russell holding back Arturo
Villa, like so that they can get into the side rat and...
And even then, Russell says, we've got to let him go, he's done
too much. for us.
Yeah, yeah.
Because the doctor's not the only person who knows the time
lords.
Like the warlord knows of them.
The war chief is obviously one of them.
And so they're able there also to sell that sense of panic and
stuff to make the time lords as big as they possibly can be.
I have to say that because we've got the space for a whole episode
at the end, to kind of deal with them, and because of how new and
strange this is, how absolutely unprecedented it is in the show
I'm nearly at the point where I want to make this my favourite
regeneration story, just because I think that the show changes so
radically and so strangely.
I think there's a real loss to finding out where the doctor comes
from.
I think it's a real problem.
And the decisions made here don't always lead the show into a
particularly good place.
But here, it's possible that we introduce the time lords and we
don't wreck the show.
We start to actually get a clearer idea of why the doctor is the
hero, that he's become during the Trout era and during the late
Hartnell era, it gives him something definite to react against
that he's fun and that he cares, and he wants to do good.
It is a peculiar reaction against that doctor.
Yeah, yeah.
If it had been versus the pertwee doctor or the heart nor doctor
you wouldn't have felt the same because he's having his liberty
taken away from him and liberty is everything to the 2nd doctor.
Yeah, absolutely.
Railing against sort of authoritarianism and against rules.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
They're a very good foil to the doctor and I think that dropping
him on earth in practice doesn't wreck the show, that the Perto
era isn't that vastly different from the eras on either side of it
a little bit more earthbound, but it's still allowed to tell the
same kinds of stories, I think.
So it doesn't ruin the show and the show doesn't become the time
lord show.
Well, that's what I was going to say.
Like, you mean, they're introduced, but they're only in the one
episode.
It's more their presence, right?
And then here we are, boom, we're changing the show, but we're
going to stay out of it. not in the next season.
Like, they're not there at all.
And it's only like a year later that suddenly, you know, you've
got the master and then Joe knows about them and the doctor sent
on missions to try and get him back into space.
But even then, that doesn't last that long.
It's only 15 stories before he gets his exile lifted.
Yeah.
And even then they're still very much in the background.
Like, I'll say this, I think, you know, 80s timeline story is
potentially ruin the show, but the way in which Terrence, a script
editor uses them throughout the Pertwee era, is actually quite
sparingly and for purpose.
And it doesn't ruin the show.
I would agree with that, but I would also say that as ever with
these things.
It's not the introduction of something.
It's the way that it's then used going forward.
So Davos is fantastic and amazing.
The fact that they return to that well a number of times dilutes
how potent and incredible it is.
If the time lords had just been in the war games, we would think
that they were amazing.
It is the fact that they return to them piecemeal throughout the
Pertwi era that I think dilutes a lot of their potency within the
show.
They are so awesome and so terrifying and they don't become that
again.
And when Holmes gets hold of them.
Like, even at the beginning of Tariff, the autons, where you've
got the Magrit painting guy, you know, in the bowler hat, being
terribly camp and thinking of witty ways of dealing with things
you know, like, that is not the time lords that we see.
That's not Bernard Horsfall at the end of this story.
When Mac Hulk gets hold of them again for the one and only time at
the start of colony in space.
It is those time points.
Yeah, yeah.
That is interesting.
Because, I mean, you see them, obviously, in the 3 doctors and
they're not all powerful.
And it is different from this and they are never, besides that
quite the same way again.
It's the sort of change from Doctor Who, being a sort of whimsical
fantasy series with nearly no premise to being kind of burdened
with all of this law.
And I think the show finds a way of coping with it.
It's at its best when it uses that stuff sparingly.
But again, it wouldn't be burdened with the law if it didn't keep
returning to it.
If this was just a plot function to explain where the doctor came
from and exile him to earth and then we just go forward with the
series, that would be fine.
Yeah, I think there's an inexorable gravity, though, to
introducing that as a premise that it was more or less inevitable
that we would go back there.
And certainly Terrence is introducing it, presumably with some
nascent idea that he'll go back there.
Well, it's interesting that you've got the war chief, who knows
the doctor and they have a history.
And then, you know, in a year's time, they're going to say, well
let's return to that by introducing the master because it actually
works so well here.
I get very disappointed that he gets killed off because he is that
good.
And it's clearly the same conception of a character.
Yeah.
He interacts with the doctor, that kind of adversarial, but also
kind of collegiate relationship.
To the point where, you know, doesn't the doomsday weapon
basically imply that he is the master?
The novelisation of holy in space.
Oh, actually makes the connection that the war chief is the
master.
And then obviously also the war games in colour makes that very
clear that they've decided he is the master. too clear.
I mean, I think there is sort of something to be said for that.
It is a very similar character, but, you know, there can be more
than 2 people on Gallifrey.
It's the dry run.
I've looked at the security chief and realised what a great foil
for the doctor that is.
And when you get in a great actor like Edward Brayshaw, who is
Australian, by the way.
Oh, okay. and who was in the reign of terror.
So just, you know, apropos of nothing.
When you get in a great charismatic actor playing a strong foil
for the doctor, that's a regular villain.
That's something you can come back to time and again.
Tell me you look at Peter Butterworth as the monk.
He was brought back and he was a grateful for William Hart.
It's a shame he never appeared again.
Absolutely.
Can we shout out to Philip Maddock, who was making his 2nd
appearance in the season...
After his award-winning performance...
He is utterly unrecognisable and totally sensational and just the
voice and the mannerisms in the performance.
Quiet authority.
I have recollections of when I 1st watched it, not realising it
was actually him.
Right.
See, like, he's Solon, obviously, and I have recently been
thinking about Power of Kroll because I sort of posted about that
season.
Always.
I think his performance as Fena in Power of Kroll, and the warlord
are not that far off.
It's very sort of saturnine.
Yeah, yeah.
It's not the ranty soul on character.
It is that much, much more a strained character.
And there's something about, um, he's terrifying.
He's frightening.
He does that very quiet, very soft voice thing all the way
through.
But he's also amused by the doctor as well.
And he can see through the doctor.
There's one point in one of the late episodes where there's a
scene where he's just smiling as the doctor lies to him because he
doesn't care and he knows that it's false.
You have a silver tongue, doctor.
Yes.
Like your friend, the war tune.
That's it.
You knew that they were that well acquainted.
What a stupid fool you.
I'm sure he got the job somewhere.
Yes, he is amused by things.
And he's also amused to a certain extent by the infighting between
security chief and the water.
But to a greater extent, really annoyed by the fact that they just
can't get their stuff together.
It's great actually when the boss arrives and they have just
completely stuffed everything up.
Everything's like in an absolute kind of disaster, the moment that
he arrives and they're having to sort of explain that it's all
under control and we're about to fix it any moment now, which is
pretty great.
Obviously, this is Terence shaping the show as he wants it to go
forward.
What do you think is kind of visible here in his writing that
we're going to get to know about over the next few weeks?
We've talked about some of the hallmarks of his writing.
I think the morality, the clear morality and the doctor and the
humour that he brings to the character of the doctor.
I also think he is like that other great Terry, Terry Nation in
that he has a very, very strong clarity of storytelling and it's
because he's grounded in all those things that we've talked about
and he likes a straightforward action thriller.
And what he does is bring that aesthetic to the show.
So everything that Terence writes is just a bounding story from
start to finish, populated with great characters and with
interesting dynamics between them.
He just goes back to those concepts of storytelling and minds them
there are very few stories that they don't make, that they
commission as a script and then don't follow through.
And that's because he has that nuts and bolts storytelling.
And so he can work with the writer to get a workable story out of
whatever concepts that they have.
And I think you'll see in future in his work on the novelisations
that economical and very precise storytelling where he can
actually just put together a story in 110 pages and it's there on
the page.
But you'll also see it in the way that he can write to order with
things like the 5 doctors.
You just tell him we need this, this, this, and this, and he will
turn out something that's perfectly serviceable.
Which Bob Holmes couldn't do in that case.
Correct.
This story is that baptism of fire that I think he learns that in
in a way.
Like this is his testing ground.
He has to do these 10 episodes in 20 days, as you said earlier
Peter, and he proved that he could do it.
And then he learned how to manage that going forward.
Yes, the confidence to structure going on.
Yes, and also never wanting to happen again.
There's not a failure of script per se in the pertwee era.
Like, yes, there's some lesser ones and the greater ones, but
nothing of a total disaster that perhaps Eric Saywood's had later
on.
Or that we've had before.
His major strength is that he can get to the nuts and bolts of
that story.
We can shape the cliffhangers and where are we going all the way
through and help writers to focus, but also we've either got a
clear monster or a villain and we've got, you know, a second dream
sort of person who can be annoying or whatever, but we've also got
those relationships with the doctor and his companions and whether
it be the brigadier, Liz, Joe, whatever, and the humour that's
thrown in there in those situations.
And it's all in here.
I think he doesn't see writing as art.
I think he would call himself a jobbing writer.
It's craft.
It's not art.
It's just getting a really great concept and here, let's not
forget.
They have the brilliant concept of different war zones, which
means they can basically pad out the story as long as they need to
just by going to new wars.
And then knowing what to do with it just to fill the allotted
time.
That's not an artist at work.
That's a craftsman.
But I think there's something, you know, like art is nothing
without craft, I think.
And I think that this is a story that has something proper to
say.
Absolutely. and has something proper to do within the confines of
the program that's actually going to impact the program going
forward.
And that's a really good point.
It has something to say.
And not every perjury story is going to have something to say, but
a lot of them do.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. absolutely.
And whether it's be about pollution or minor strikes or whatever
things that we saw on television as kids of being of our time, but
we're actually like, in my head, like 5 or 6 years ahead of what
was actually happening. is these elements of ethics and empathy
that I don't think the program has properly mined before, which
become staples of the show during the Pertwei era.
And I think that's Terence.
Barry gets the credit for a lot of kind of, you know, the
ecological standpoints and bringing religion and ideas of religion
to the program.
And I think he does, but Terrence is the one who can make stories
about them.
Yes, he makes it happen.
And he can see that they're essential to society.
I took last season when we were looking at the Colin Baker era and
I said that season 22 was the moment where I felt I was now seeing
through the program.
And I think what is happening there is that Terrence is so good at
a Doctor Who that consists of captures and escapes of fooling
people.
He's so good at making a plot out of those where things happen and
things have momentum and lead somewhere.
You know here, this is the story of this emerging resistance that
rises up and eventually infiltrates the base.
It's going somewhere and all of the incidental action leads up to
it.
It's very easy to write the captures and escapes and fail to get
them to do anything.
And I think that perhaps that ability kind of drops off a bit
after Terence and and then after him kind of homes leave the
program.
I think Terence, as a script writer, his long received wisdom
reputation among fans as a writer is almost entirely built on the
horror of Fang Rock.
Yeah. and that is the acme of approach.
But I would argue that it should actually be built on this.
Yeah, okay.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The exit of the companions.
That is really quite heartbreaking to me, and the fact that
they're willing to go there as well.
It's really moving, isn't it?
It's really, really well done.
And the fact that Jamie's had so much character work and will only
remember that 1st adventure.
I mean, yes, for Zoe as well, but particularly that, I was just
shattered, like reading about it or knowing about it.
And like, he's prepared to go there?
Like that's a real consequence.
It really lands for us.
And I said this, I think, in Journey's end, because we're Doctor
Who fans and we love Doctor Who and watching Doctor Who and
remembering Doctor Who.
The idea that you wouldn't remember all of those stories, you know
that you had been in, that would be wiped out, that lands
particularly for us.
And just the resignation of the doctor.
Like, you almost get the sense that there's that little escape.
You know, there's that little moment where they escape. dragged
into it by Jamie and Zoe.
And he does it for them because he loves them.
Exactly right.
He knows there's no escaping.
Oh one last little adventure.
So sweet.
That's exactly what I think is happening there.
It's great.
I was in tears watching the end of that episode because you've
known these characters like Jamie, you've known for his entire run
basically.
And it's basically that's Jamie's entire adult life, in a way, up
until this point, is being wiped away.
But also, too, is Zoe going back to the wheel in space and they
could have just had her wherever, but taking the time to do that
right?
That get back, Gemma, Gemma.
It's little touches like that going forward that, you know, also
Terrence influences, really.
I mean, that's the sort of thing that you're doing in the Moffit
era or in the new series, isn't it?
You would remount something and bring someone back.
You know, you'll bring Vincent Van Koch back for the finale for
the season finale or something.
I mean, that's what makes it a celebration of the year as well.
Captain the ship in Curse of the Blacksport.
Well, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And we get the shots of all of the big rubber monsters of the era
celebrating.
The quarks, the terrifying quarks that we were trying to make
happen.
We could only go with season 6, some sort of contractual thing.
But I mean, that was all good.
Where were the croton?
Yeah, where were the crotons?
But all of that stuff was really great.
It's like a proper celebration of the era.
It really, really properly does do what a regeneration story will
kind of go on to do.
And the next one doesn't do.
And what a modern finale does, which explains why new series fans
are so partial to the ball games.
It's also, I think, just, again, we can't sing Terence's praises
enough.
He doesn't get enough credit for these things.
The cyclical nature of the storytelling.
So not only do you have Jamie forgetting everything's happening
going back and facing a red coat and attacking him, that mirrors
what happens in episode 2 where the red coat comes into the cell.
And Jamie, with everything that he's learned from the doctor
approaches this redcoat with kindness and empathy to try to build
a bridge with him.
Same thing with the trial at the end where the doctor is just
basically facing his own people who've made up their minds.
Nothing he's going to say will influence that is just like the
trial in the 1st episode.
Yeah, yeah.
You know, Terrence does not get enough credit for the cleverness
of this stuff.
I actually think something he says does land in the trial because
I think they are convinced.
You know, they say we're convinced that you still have a role to
play in fighting evil and that's not something that we time lords
do.
And the doctor kind of gets.
I mean, you know, like these people with godlike power on the
doctor's one of them, but he's this little kind of scruffy person
you know, sort of shambolic kind of scraped through with 51%.
Yeah, yeah. that's been sort of cast out of this race of godlike
entities.
That's an amazing, an amazing insight into his character now, and
I don't think it ruins it in any way.
It's great.
And also having like trout and swirling head, body thing like fake
making me giddy.
Yeah.
But we don't have a definitive sort of here's the next person
which is very unique in Classic Who.
Yeah, because we had already been cast.
Oh, is this 3 weeks before?
They should have had him change into Jacqueline Hill.
Well, that's all the time we have for this week.
We'll be back next week.
Skipping over Terence's tenure as Doctor Who's group editor to
discuss his first solo writing credit on the show, Tom Baker's
debut story, Robot.
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts
and you can keep up with us on our website, 500yearDiary.com, where
you'll find our social media links, as well as links to all of our
other podcasts, including our other Doctor Who podcasts, flight
through entirety, and the 2nd great and bountiful Human Empire.
Until next time, remember that you don't actually have to do what
your manager tells you to do unless they've got their monocle on.
Thank you very much for listening and good night.
Ta-ta.
See you soon.
Good night.
That was 500 Year Diary, starring Todd Bealby, Nathan Bottomley
Peter Griffith, and James Selwood.
The theme was composed by Cameron Lamb.
This episode, Boys Own Cliffhangers, was recorded on the 2nd of
November 2025 and released on the 23rd of November.
The fact that World War I is the most recent war in the wargames
lends more evidence to my theory that this story takes place on
the 8th of December, 1926, which is also the date that the unicorn
and the wasp is set, along with the savages, the web planet, and
Galaxy 4.
Ask Andrew Pixley if you don't believe me.
What do you think?
We one hour and seven minutes in, I think.
I'd like to talk about James Brie, quite frankly.
I would say, hang on.
Well, just before we talk about it, James B. one more thing.
Okay.
Also, let's not forget.
Terence is incredibly bloodthirsty.
And this story is incredibly bloodthirsty.
Not only would sort of the enormous numbers of deaths that happen
off screen, but the enormous numbers of deaths on screen.
People are gunned down continuously.
That's very Terence.
So this is where you like it, Todd.
Of course.
But there's, you know, people survive as well.
It's not everybody's killed, but we need to talk about James
Bray.
I think we do too.
What glowing terms.
What a stupid fool, you are.
I think he's superb.
I think canonically he is somehow he's the same person as the
keeper of the Matrix.
I haven't quite worked out. he's also the same person as you.
You've had all conversation between us recorded.
I mean, it's such a great performance.
So you've got these 3 very, very different performances. among
those, the 3 lead villains.
And, and, like, James Brady, I don't think is failing.
Like I don't think he's nothing.
He's, you know, he's, I think he's setting out to do that.
And he's introducing the weird over-annunciation thing that Edward
Brayshaw then picks up on and delivers some of as the war chief.
And like, this is a planet of people wearing glasses. isn't it?
Like the planet of evil people wearing glasses, like me.
He's obviously training, like, like, um, um, Smythe, Fon Worth or
whatever his name is.
Yeah, and a lesser story, Smythe would be the amazing head villain
piece.
He's got 3 brilliant villains above it.
It's interesting that you've got those minor villains within the
walls from white, and then you go up a notch.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Amazing.
I have to say the 1st time I ever encountered the only time I've
ever encountered James Bre was at a convention in Southampton in
1995 and I walked into the room and the hall was filled with
children.
And James Bre was up on the stage.
I walked in, all these adoring children on the calculator just to
hear him say, size queen.
I thought you would have walked in and he would have said, what a
stupid fool you are.
But no, oh, James Bree.
I mean, he's just he's fundamentally classic Doctor Who for me
because not only do you have him being amazing in this story, but
you also have him in full circle.
I have seen the system files.
He's wonderful.
Also have him.
And of course.
Trial of a timelord.
The matrix.
Matrix.
It's great.
But under the hands of a lesser director.
That part could have gotten an actor.
The part could have just gotten totally out of control.
No, I mean, it's so memorable.
It's so terrific.
It's such a great counterpoint against the like the warlord when
he eventually turns up, but even the war chief, who is much more
chill, a little bit more naturalistic, not playing it quite so big
and who therefore thinks that the security chief is an idiot, and
he's kind of right.
Look, it just works.
And it's like this story.
Everything. just works The whole universe of the story works.
And I think James Bre is like Peter Miles in that they know
exactly how to pinch a Doctor Who performs.
They get it exactly right.
You would not call it naturalistic.
Oh, by any...
But they know exactly where to pitch it, to make it this beautiful
piece of work. wonderful.