WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-05-03 at 08:44:55

1
00:00:33.479 --> 00:00:37.560
Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to 500 year diary.

2
00:00:37.619 --> 00:00:42.420
The only Doctor Who podcast that has the Loihagel and nothing can

3
00:00:42.420 --> 00:00:43.259
stop us now.

4
00:00:43.320 --> 00:00:45.119
I'm Nathan.

5
00:00:45.179 --> 00:00:46.320
I'm Pisa.

6
00:00:46.380 --> 00:00:47.159
I'm Simon.

7
00:00:47.219 --> 00:00:48.299
And I'm Todd.

8
00:00:48.359 --> 00:00:51.780
It's the 7th of September, 1987.

9
00:00:52.079 --> 00:00:56.640
It's been more than 2.5 years since the Rani 1st turned up in

10
00:00:56.640 --> 00:00:59.759
Killingworth to prevent the local miners from getting a good

11
00:00:59.759 --> 00:01:04.620
night's sleep, and tonight, 5.100000 people have switched on to

12
00:01:04.620 --> 00:01:09.180
find out what she's been up to since then, and possibly for

13
00:01:09.180 --> 00:01:10.500
another important reason as well.

14
00:01:10.680 --> 00:01:15.599
Does the Rani still have a role without 2 camp silly blustering

15
00:01:15.599 --> 00:01:17.459
time lord men to make fun of?

16
00:01:17.519 --> 00:01:21.659
Let's find out as we discuss time and the running.

17
00:01:39.780 --> 00:01:43.260
All right, so this is obviously important because it's the second

18
00:01:43.260 --> 00:01:48.239
appearance of Cato Mara's Rani in the show, but it is kind of

19
00:01:48.239 --> 00:01:53.459
important in that it is also the start of an entire new era for

20
00:01:53.459 --> 00:01:58.379
Doctor Who, and that's the Sylvester McCoy, Andrew Cartmel, late

21
00:01:58.379 --> 00:02:01.019
period of JNT.

22
00:02:01.079 --> 00:02:06.780
And I think it immediately looks a bit different from what's come

23
00:02:06.780 --> 00:02:07.079
before.

24
00:02:07.200 --> 00:02:10.080
I think it does look very different.

25
00:02:10.139 --> 00:02:14.039
It's almost like season 23, Trial of a Time Lord, was this weird

26
00:02:14.039 --> 00:02:18.539
cul-de-sac where they just didn't know how to make Dr. 2 and how

27
00:02:18.539 --> 00:02:19.860
to make it look good on screen.

28
00:02:19.919 --> 00:02:23.580
Whereas suddenly the production has taken this leap into the

29
00:02:23.580 --> 00:02:24.780
future, I think.

30
00:02:24.840 --> 00:02:29.280
And so the series as a very definite visual style, which was

31
00:02:29.280 --> 00:02:33.719
lacking last season, and I think the money is suddenly there on

32
00:02:33.719 --> 00:02:38.280
the screen, they're able to go out onto location and meld video

33
00:02:38.280 --> 00:02:40.319
elements of the show to the location.

34
00:02:40.379 --> 00:02:43.680
It suddenly it looks like a show which knows how it wants to

35
00:02:43.680 --> 00:02:43.979
look.

36
00:02:44.039 --> 00:02:46.979
And again, I think that probably comes down to the director

37
00:02:46.979 --> 00:02:49.740
because I think part of the floor with season 23, and I said this

38
00:02:49.740 --> 00:02:52.319
last week with Mind Warp, was that they kind of had forgotten how

39
00:02:52.319 --> 00:02:55.259
to make Doctor Who, is that you've got the 3 directors of season

40
00:02:55.259 --> 00:02:57.599
23 are not particularly strong directors.

41
00:02:57.719 --> 00:03:01.259
Some of them will get to see again, but Andrew Morgan is an

42
00:03:01.259 --> 00:03:03.719
incredibly strong director, and of course, we see that again next

43
00:03:03.719 --> 00:03:04.680
year with remembrance.

44
00:03:04.740 --> 00:03:06.000
That's true, I think.

45
00:03:06.060 --> 00:03:11.460
And if you look at remembrance as the example, if you buy into the

46
00:03:11.460 --> 00:03:15.599
fact that Doctor Who had a late Renaissance and became a very good

47
00:03:15.599 --> 00:03:19.560
series that knew itself towards the end, I think this is half the

48
00:03:19.560 --> 00:03:20.639
puzzle unpicked.

49
00:03:20.699 --> 00:03:24.599
They've actually got the production looking like a show which

50
00:03:24.599 --> 00:03:26.759
they're not embarrassed to put out on BBC One.

51
00:03:26.819 --> 00:03:30.180
It may not be the style of show that a lot of people like, but

52
00:03:30.180 --> 00:03:32.819
it's definitely, it knows what it wants to be and it knows how it

53
00:03:32.819 --> 00:03:33.300
wants to look.

54
00:03:33.360 --> 00:03:36.780
The other half of the puzzle. is unpicking the scripting.

55
00:03:36.840 --> 00:03:39.599
And I think that when we come to remembrance of the Daleks, under

56
00:03:39.599 --> 00:03:42.240
the same director, you suddenly have something that's really

57
00:03:42.240 --> 00:03:42.780
great.

58
00:03:42.840 --> 00:03:45.120
Yes, I think that was only half the picture and the other half is

59
00:03:45.120 --> 00:03:46.439
definitely sadly missing at this point.

60
00:03:46.500 --> 00:03:49.259
But you see how great he is as a director.

61
00:03:49.379 --> 00:03:50.879
I still think there are problems with this.

62
00:03:50.939 --> 00:03:55.439
Like the Rani TARDIS is just so poor and you can see the string

63
00:03:55.439 --> 00:03:56.520
that she's hanging off.

64
00:03:56.580 --> 00:03:58.800
I don't like the Tet traps lair.

65
00:03:58.860 --> 00:04:02.400
I think that the scene involving the doctor and Mel meeting and

66
00:04:02.400 --> 00:04:04.800
all that is one of the most embarrassing scenes ever perpetrated

67
00:04:04.800 --> 00:04:06.060
in the history of Doctor Who.

68
00:04:06.120 --> 00:04:09.360
There might be a confidence there, but I just think that there's

69
00:04:09.360 --> 00:04:12.360
something, and I think it is the script, and it's a fact that I

70
00:04:12.360 --> 00:04:16.079
think that Mel is a character with no character, and I think

71
00:04:16.079 --> 00:04:19.740
there's mistakes there. he's as good a director as you're kind of

72
00:04:19.740 --> 00:04:20.519
making out that he is.

73
00:04:20.699 --> 00:04:24.480
I think there are problems with the way the production looks.

74
00:04:24.540 --> 00:04:28.680
Like, I think the location work is very good, as you said, and

75
00:04:28.680 --> 00:04:32.339
that they managed to meld video effects and visual effects like

76
00:04:32.339 --> 00:04:35.160
practical effects in the traps and stuff like that.

77
00:04:35.220 --> 00:04:38.939
But my experience of watching it for the 1st time, I remember

78
00:04:38.939 --> 00:04:43.860
going to the phone, we had a phone attached to our house back then

79
00:04:43.860 --> 00:04:45.779
and Vanderthal.

80
00:04:45.839 --> 00:04:46.079
Yeah.

81
00:04:46.259 --> 00:04:49.319
And I went to the phone.

82
00:04:49.379 --> 00:04:49.980
Yeah we did.

83
00:04:50.279 --> 00:04:56.639
And I rang my friend Matthew and I said, I think this is a key to

84
00:04:56.639 --> 00:05:00.660
the show now, and I will continue watching it, but I'm not

85
00:05:00.660 --> 00:05:03.420
entirely sure that I'm on board with it.

86
00:05:03.480 --> 00:05:09.000
And I think the problem is the incredible light entertainment set

87
00:05:09.000 --> 00:05:12.839
which is the Rani's laboratory, which doesn't look like a

88
00:05:12.839 --> 00:05:13.740
laboratory.

89
00:05:13.800 --> 00:05:16.079
It does look like a game show said.

90
00:05:16.139 --> 00:05:21.360
And while it's trying to be visually interesting, you know, it's

91
00:05:21.360 --> 00:05:25.680
that kind of stylised look in the studio that I think doesn't

92
00:05:25.680 --> 00:05:26.519
really work.

93
00:05:26.579 --> 00:05:28.680
Is this a problem with the script?

94
00:05:28.740 --> 00:05:31.740
Like, was this script developed with no script editor?

95
00:05:31.800 --> 00:05:36.300
Was this script developed like for potentially Colin Baker and

96
00:05:36.300 --> 00:05:39.000
then augmented for Sylvester McCoy?

97
00:05:39.060 --> 00:05:41.339
I mean, I had to give it to Pip and Jane Baker.

98
00:05:41.399 --> 00:05:44.459
They had to do a lot of heavy lifting in the last 10 episodes.

99
00:05:44.459 --> 00:05:45.959
Yes, with no Swift editor.

100
00:05:46.019 --> 00:05:49.079
And it's only like, you know, on reflection that you, like as a

101
00:05:49.079 --> 00:05:52.980
kid, I didn't see the faults perhaps in terror the vervoids or

102
00:05:52.980 --> 00:05:54.959
even the ultimate faux.

103
00:05:55.019 --> 00:05:58.139
But when I got to this, I began to like lose heart.

104
00:05:58.199 --> 00:06:02.040
Like everything was just so A to B to see, like we've put together

105
00:06:02.040 --> 00:06:05.100
and it's a workable script and it's got cliffhangers. got monsters

106
00:06:05.100 --> 00:06:08.459
it's got aliens, but somehow it just doesn't quite work and I

107
00:06:08.459 --> 00:06:10.980
don't know, I can't explain it.

108
00:06:11.040 --> 00:06:13.139
Like, is that part of the problem?

109
00:06:13.199 --> 00:06:15.959
Yeah, it is a script where there's not a whole lot going on.

110
00:06:16.019 --> 00:06:17.879
But I want to address a couple of things that we were talking

111
00:06:17.879 --> 00:06:19.139
about production wise there.

112
00:06:19.199 --> 00:06:21.720
What are the problems with the sets is that they're too big.

113
00:06:21.779 --> 00:06:27.720
And so they spend a lot of time in that in the Rani's laboratory

114
00:06:27.720 --> 00:06:30.360
just moving around that laboratory with the camera following them

115
00:06:30.360 --> 00:06:30.600
around.

116
00:06:30.660 --> 00:06:34.740
I think that also stymies Sylvester's performance a little bit

117
00:06:34.740 --> 00:06:37.439
because in location work, he's generally fine.

118
00:06:37.500 --> 00:06:40.740
But when he gets into that 1st production block, most of which is

119
00:06:40.740 --> 00:06:45.240
spent on the Rani's laboratory set, as just him and Kays O'Mara

120
00:06:45.240 --> 00:06:49.079
often dressed up as Mel doing her mal impression, just the 2 of

121
00:06:49.079 --> 00:06:52.740
them, on that big set, I think he has a crisis of confidence, and

122
00:06:52.740 --> 00:06:54.000
you can see that on screen.

123
00:06:54.060 --> 00:06:55.740
He's not able to deliver things.

124
00:06:55.800 --> 00:07:00.060
Those early scenes in the Rani's laboratory where he's desperately

125
00:07:00.060 --> 00:07:03.660
overplaying it and trying to almost to fill the set because it's

126
00:07:03.660 --> 00:07:05.699
just them don't work at all.

127
00:07:05.759 --> 00:07:09.120
And I think that's a serious blow to his early performances, the

128
00:07:09.120 --> 00:07:09.480
doctor.

129
00:07:09.540 --> 00:07:12.959
When you come back in the 2nd recording block, he's obviously

130
00:07:12.959 --> 00:07:16.199
gathered himself together and does a much better job, even on that

131
00:07:16.199 --> 00:07:16.500
set.

132
00:07:16.560 --> 00:07:20.699
Those Pratt falls, the early Pratt falls, and it is in the scene

133
00:07:20.699 --> 00:07:24.839
where Mel grabs him and it's in the scene, I think, where he's

134
00:07:24.839 --> 00:07:25.740
running away from the run.

135
00:07:25.800 --> 00:07:26.939
He's running away from the Rani.

136
00:07:27.000 --> 00:07:30.360
But at the beginning of episode 3 when he runs away from her and

137
00:07:30.360 --> 00:07:34.920
he escapes from her by Prattfall, by comedy Prattfall, in a

138
00:07:34.920 --> 00:07:35.100
sense.

139
00:07:35.160 --> 00:07:37.500
You know, he puts his scarf around her, pushes her over.

140
00:07:37.560 --> 00:07:40.980
He runs out of a thing and does that jump and then, you know, the

141
00:07:40.980 --> 00:07:43.860
little jump on the leg, which I think works really well.

142
00:07:43.920 --> 00:07:46.800
And that's kind of where we end up landing with this doctor.

143
00:07:46.860 --> 00:07:50.100
And we'll talk a little bit about how the Rani is kind of

144
00:07:50.100 --> 00:07:53.339
cartoonized a bit by this story.

145
00:07:53.399 --> 00:07:57.959
But the early Pratfalls are embarrassingly bad, I think.

146
00:07:58.019 --> 00:08:01.620
And it's the same problem, I think, that Colin has in the studio

147
00:08:01.620 --> 00:08:02.160
isn't it?

148
00:08:02.220 --> 00:08:07.199
Where it's much, much harder to act in these garish, light

149
00:08:07.199 --> 00:08:10.199
entertainment style sets that we've been getting.

150
00:08:10.259 --> 00:08:14.759
And the moment that you get outside, everyone starts to behave a

151
00:08:14.759 --> 00:08:17.759
little bit more naturalistically and to rein it in a bit.

152
00:08:17.819 --> 00:08:20.459
Okay, I think there's several things going on there.

153
00:08:20.579 --> 00:08:24.540
We're still in an era where the location work is done first. that

154
00:08:24.540 --> 00:08:24.959
be correct.

155
00:08:25.019 --> 00:08:28.199
So it's interesting that he's more confident in his 1st scenes

156
00:08:28.199 --> 00:08:29.220
than...

157
00:08:29.279 --> 00:08:31.199
Well, I think that's the thing of being able to shoot it on single

158
00:08:31.199 --> 00:08:31.560
can.

159
00:08:31.620 --> 00:08:33.659
Yeah, and even though it's yes.

160
00:08:33.720 --> 00:08:36.179
So even that's video, we're still shooting it like it's film in

161
00:08:36.179 --> 00:08:39.360
that it's one camera at a time, one camera position at a time, you

162
00:08:39.360 --> 00:08:42.360
have the opportunity to rehearse and record in a way that you do

163
00:08:42.360 --> 00:08:44.159
not get in the studio.

164
00:08:44.159 --> 00:08:47.399
And you also in some respects have a bit more of flexibility with

165
00:08:47.399 --> 00:08:48.899
doing a few more takes as well.

166
00:08:48.960 --> 00:08:52.320
I suspect that that's what's missing in those early practical

167
00:08:52.320 --> 00:08:54.600
sequences, which I actually think are very embarrassing.

168
00:08:54.659 --> 00:08:57.120
They're actually almost unforgivable.

169
00:08:57.179 --> 00:08:59.340
Oh, yes. going back to what Todd was saying about the 1st meeting

170
00:08:59.340 --> 00:09:00.600
of the doctor and Mel.

171
00:09:00.659 --> 00:09:03.779
It's terribly covered and should never have made it to screen.

172
00:09:03.840 --> 00:09:04.500
It's embarrassing.

173
00:09:04.559 --> 00:09:05.700
The light entertainment thing.

174
00:09:05.759 --> 00:09:08.340
And this is an extension of what I was saying in Mind Warp, which

175
00:09:08.340 --> 00:09:10.860
is the fact that things, I know there's disagreement out there, but

176
00:09:10.860 --> 00:09:15.779
what I feel was very strong, visually strong, season 22 and script

177
00:09:15.779 --> 00:09:18.720
wise and everything else, gritty, interesting, love it. you know

178
00:09:18.720 --> 00:09:21.480
few failures, but basically I thought is brilliant, Doctor Who

179
00:09:21.480 --> 00:09:24.179
exactly the way I wanted it at the time. you know, and then season

180
00:09:24.179 --> 00:09:27.539
21 also was great and gritty and had interesting stories like

181
00:09:27.539 --> 00:09:30.240
Planet Fire or Frontios, which were kind of doing something

182
00:09:30.240 --> 00:09:30.840
unusual.

183
00:09:30.960 --> 00:09:34.500
Basically, they've still forgotten how to make the show in season

184
00:09:34.500 --> 00:09:38.820
24, but in at least in time in the Rani, at least they've got a

185
00:09:38.820 --> 00:09:41.220
competent director, you've got this light entertainment set, as

186
00:09:41.220 --> 00:09:43.679
you said, it's all light and bright and spangly.

187
00:09:43.799 --> 00:09:47.759
The effects, the explosions are all psh, rather than these meaty

188
00:09:47.759 --> 00:09:49.080
kind of sounds.

189
00:09:49.139 --> 00:09:54.720
Um, you've got a much more um, childlike story.

190
00:09:54.779 --> 00:09:55.379
You're right.

191
00:09:55.440 --> 00:09:58.080
When I was, and Todd, you'd remember this when we were watching it

192
00:09:58.080 --> 00:10:01.919
at school and there are a couple of friends who'd mock the fact

193
00:10:01.919 --> 00:10:05.460
that we were still watching this show and I felt that not that I

194
00:10:05.460 --> 00:10:09.179
had ached out of the show, but that the show had gone backwards in

195
00:10:09.179 --> 00:10:11.639
terms of the age that it was being pitched at.

196
00:10:11.700 --> 00:10:14.580
And that was coupled with the fact that it used to be at 6.30 in

197
00:10:14.580 --> 00:10:16.259
the evening and now in Australia.

198
00:10:16.320 --> 00:10:19.919
Now it's 5.30 in the middle of what is basically a 2 hour

199
00:10:19.919 --> 00:10:25.259
afternoon for kids programming block, which had cartoons around

200
00:10:25.259 --> 00:10:25.799
it.

201
00:10:25.799 --> 00:10:27.120
But it feels like that.

202
00:10:27.179 --> 00:10:30.000
I can't blame the ABC for scheduling it there because...

203
00:10:30.000 --> 00:10:31.799
So it aired in the same breath as Count Duckular.

204
00:10:31.860 --> 00:10:34.860
Exactly. and Roger Ramjet and all those sorts of things.

205
00:10:34.919 --> 00:10:36.899
Whereas you consider in British, it's actually being shown

206
00:10:36.899 --> 00:10:38.039
opposite Coronation Street.

207
00:10:38.100 --> 00:10:39.899
I mean, no wonder hardly anyone's watching it.

208
00:10:39.960 --> 00:10:45.179
I remember at the time, desperately needing to like it because the

209
00:10:45.179 --> 00:10:48.659
show had been cancelled and we were living on borrowed time, so we

210
00:10:48.659 --> 00:10:52.440
had to like this, we had to defend it and I defended it.

211
00:10:52.500 --> 00:10:57.179
I'm less keen to defend it now because I actually think season 24

212
00:10:57.179 --> 00:11:00.539
is whilst they're experimenting and you can see what happens to

213
00:11:00.539 --> 00:11:02.159
the show in the later last 2 years.

214
00:11:02.220 --> 00:11:03.600
It's flailing.

215
00:11:03.659 --> 00:11:05.340
It's really everywhere.

216
00:11:05.399 --> 00:11:08.460
It's like I had the same experience, like, obviously, you were

217
00:11:08.460 --> 00:11:10.379
talking that we were watching this together at school.

218
00:11:10.440 --> 00:11:12.419
But I remember desperately wanting to love it.

219
00:11:12.539 --> 00:11:15.240
And I remember my father coming in wanting to bond with me over

220
00:11:15.240 --> 00:11:18.899
this show, which they had, my parents had just, you're not going

221
00:11:18.899 --> 00:11:21.299
to buy Dr. 2 magazine anymore, like all this sort of stuff that

222
00:11:21.299 --> 00:11:21.899
they didn't want.

223
00:11:21.960 --> 00:11:24.899
And I had to turn to him and say, look, you don't have to watch

224
00:11:24.899 --> 00:11:25.620
this with me.

225
00:11:25.679 --> 00:11:26.519
This isn't very good.

226
00:11:26.580 --> 00:11:28.860
And I remember me saying those words to my father.

227
00:11:28.919 --> 00:11:31.860
Now, I don't know if it was time in the Rani or Paradise Towers

228
00:11:31.860 --> 00:11:34.500
but it was one of these 2 stories that happened in.

229
00:11:34.559 --> 00:11:36.059
And that will stick with me forever.

230
00:11:36.120 --> 00:11:39.539
What you've just talked about season 24, I think, after this story

231
00:11:39.539 --> 00:11:42.419
I think there's some really wonderful ideas coming in, but it's

232
00:11:42.419 --> 00:11:45.840
but it's failure of consistent production in one aspect or

233
00:11:45.840 --> 00:11:46.080
another.

234
00:11:46.139 --> 00:11:47.279
How to deal with those ideas.

235
00:11:47.340 --> 00:11:50.460
And the other thing for me is Monty Langford as Mel.

236
00:11:50.519 --> 00:11:52.799
And you have to give Bonnie complete marks.

237
00:11:52.860 --> 00:11:53.759
She's such a professional.

238
00:11:53.820 --> 00:11:56.399
Like, you know, she's, she screams when she needs to scream.

239
00:11:56.460 --> 00:11:59.580
She reacts when she needs to react, but it's just so stagey.

240
00:11:59.700 --> 00:12:02.340
And at this point, I don't think she's learnt how she's very

241
00:12:02.340 --> 00:12:02.580
young.

242
00:12:02.639 --> 00:12:05.399
I don't think she's learned how to act for television.

243
00:12:05.759 --> 00:12:09.899
Whereas the episode we've just seen today, the reality war, she

244
00:12:09.899 --> 00:12:11.519
was just, again, superb in.

245
00:12:11.580 --> 00:12:15.179
But in this and in the next story, these 2 stories just kill that

246
00:12:15.179 --> 00:12:16.679
character for me so much.

247
00:12:16.740 --> 00:12:18.840
And I'm sorry to go down that road.

248
00:12:18.899 --> 00:12:21.899
I don't want to be negative because I really, I actually enjoy

249
00:12:21.899 --> 00:12:26.340
watching Mel's and her performance over these 20 episodes to see

250
00:12:26.340 --> 00:12:27.179
what she's trying to do.

251
00:12:27.240 --> 00:12:28.200
She's trying to give it energy.

252
00:12:28.259 --> 00:12:29.580
She's trying to give it oomph.

253
00:12:29.639 --> 00:12:31.019
But it doesn't work.

254
00:12:31.080 --> 00:12:33.059
Let me pick up on a few things there.

255
00:12:33.120 --> 00:12:35.639
First of all, my father also watched time.

256
00:12:36.240 --> 00:12:39.659
And he watched it quite impassively and I wasn't sure what he was

257
00:12:39.659 --> 00:12:43.200
thinking of until the end of episode 4 when the doctor ushers

258
00:12:43.200 --> 00:12:46.080
Einstein out of console room and says it's all relative where he

259
00:12:46.080 --> 00:12:46.799
burst out laughing.

260
00:12:46.860 --> 00:12:48.299
I thought that was hilarious.

261
00:12:48.299 --> 00:12:49.320
In a good way.

262
00:12:49.379 --> 00:12:50.039
Oh, that's good.

263
00:12:50.100 --> 00:12:54.480
I am much more positive about this story because I think it's, as

264
00:12:54.480 --> 00:12:57.120
ever, when you look at the scope of Doctor Who, there are blind

265
00:12:57.120 --> 00:13:00.539
alleys and places where it goes and things which feel like they're

266
00:13:00.539 --> 00:13:02.700
wrong at the time, but then you can see them in the sweep of the

267
00:13:02.700 --> 00:13:03.419
series.

268
00:13:03.480 --> 00:13:06.120
Season 24, I actually enjoy on its own terms.

269
00:13:06.179 --> 00:13:07.860
I don't think a lot of it's very good.

270
00:13:07.919 --> 00:13:11.100
I don't think a lot of time in the Rani is very good, but I really

271
00:13:11.100 --> 00:13:15.059
enjoy this slight sidestep into a Doctor Who that we never

272
00:13:15.059 --> 00:13:15.840
otherwise had.

273
00:13:15.899 --> 00:13:19.440
I also think that it's a comprehensive production.

274
00:13:19.500 --> 00:13:21.600
I know you've got problems with the way that's made.

275
00:13:21.659 --> 00:13:24.539
I do think there's bits which are not very well done.

276
00:13:24.600 --> 00:13:27.179
Like we talked about earlier, the Pratt Falls, the scene between

277
00:13:27.179 --> 00:13:30.360
the doctor and Mel, which is just how on earth that made it to

278
00:13:30.360 --> 00:13:31.080
screen. don't know.

279
00:13:31.139 --> 00:13:33.120
But it is a comprehensive production.

280
00:13:33.179 --> 00:13:36.000
It feels like there is someone behind the camera who knows how to

281
00:13:36.000 --> 00:13:40.259
make television, and that hasn't always been a given previously

282
00:13:40.259 --> 00:13:43.860
and I'll use as an example, the buildup to the cliffhanger of part

283
00:13:43.860 --> 00:13:47.340
3, which starts 5 minutes before the end of the episode in a very

284
00:13:47.340 --> 00:13:52.019
modern Doctor Who way, and is this melting pot of coverage and

285
00:13:52.019 --> 00:13:53.399
performance and music.

286
00:13:53.460 --> 00:13:58.019
The music is so beautifully to that cliffhanger, and the best

287
00:13:58.019 --> 00:13:59.639
Doctor Who has always done that.

288
00:13:59.700 --> 00:14:03.360
I'm thinking of previous cliffhangers, like maybe robots of death

289
00:14:03.360 --> 00:14:07.980
part 2, and um, the Cave Zero and Design, part three.

290
00:14:08.039 --> 00:14:10.860
I'm not saying obviously that this story is in that league.

291
00:14:10.919 --> 00:14:13.980
Obviously it's not, but in the way that that is crafted, as

292
00:14:13.980 --> 00:14:17.639
television, and as good Doctor Who, as few peers.

293
00:14:17.700 --> 00:14:24.120
So, I feel a bit more like you about season 24, and I think at the

294
00:14:24.120 --> 00:14:29.460
time, I was kind of on board from Paradise Towers onward, and I

295
00:14:29.460 --> 00:14:33.720
acknowledge that Paradise Towers, even at the time, felt like kids

296
00:14:33.720 --> 00:14:38.700
TV, and one of the things it does, is it, you know, it combines

297
00:14:38.700 --> 00:14:45.240
that kind of dystopia, that strange urban dystopia with children's

298
00:14:45.240 --> 00:14:49.379
TV in a way that Doctor Who sometimes will juxtap to things that

299
00:14:49.379 --> 00:14:52.740
don't seem to belong together in a way that only Doctor Who can

300
00:14:52.740 --> 00:14:53.220
do.

301
00:14:53.279 --> 00:14:57.539
And so while that's a failure, I was excited by the new ideas, and

302
00:14:57.539 --> 00:15:00.899
of course, we all know that it's the 1st Doctor Who story in some

303
00:15:00.899 --> 00:15:04.559
considerable time that doesn't have a returning element in it.

304
00:15:04.679 --> 00:15:08.220
And that felt to me to be incredibly fresh.

305
00:15:08.279 --> 00:15:08.820
Refreshing.

306
00:15:08.879 --> 00:15:09.179
Yeah.

307
00:15:09.240 --> 00:15:13.320
Now, I actually think that something like Delta and the Bannerman

308
00:15:13.320 --> 00:15:15.960
is amazing and is a template for the show going forward.

309
00:15:16.019 --> 00:15:17.519
Well, let's not go too fast.

310
00:15:17.580 --> 00:15:19.559
Why, no, no, I genuinely think it's great.

311
00:15:19.620 --> 00:15:20.639
I'm going to agree with that as well.

312
00:15:20.700 --> 00:15:23.159
I said, you know, it's halfway there and remember install of the

313
00:15:23.159 --> 00:15:23.399
way there.

314
00:15:23.460 --> 00:15:25.860
I actually think Deltron Fantoman's 75% of the way.

315
00:15:25.919 --> 00:15:26.279
Yeah, yeah.

316
00:15:26.340 --> 00:15:26.879
Yes.

317
00:15:26.940 --> 00:15:30.539
It has people looking out a window and seeing other people.

318
00:15:30.600 --> 00:15:32.340
I just think that's amazing.

319
00:15:33.240 --> 00:15:35.759
Talk about a low bar for drama.

320
00:15:35.820 --> 00:15:37.200
That's all I want.

321
00:15:37.440 --> 00:15:41.100
Can I make an interesting observation of the way I 1st saw these

322
00:15:41.100 --> 00:15:41.759
stories?

323
00:15:41.759 --> 00:15:45.179
Because this is this marks the beginning of, and Todd's, the

324
00:15:45.179 --> 00:15:48.899
beginning of our arrival into not just being obsessed fans, but

325
00:15:48.899 --> 00:15:50.399
being an organised fan.

326
00:15:50.460 --> 00:15:53.159
You were watching Time in the Rani one week and the web planet, the

327
00:15:53.159 --> 00:15:53.399
next.

328
00:15:55.019 --> 00:15:56.580
Possibly.

329
00:15:56.639 --> 00:15:59.399
That's not the story that I'm really going to.

330
00:15:59.460 --> 00:16:04.139
So I had already seen, because the ABC delayed season 24 by 12

331
00:16:04.139 --> 00:16:04.500
months.

332
00:16:04.559 --> 00:16:08.460
So we got it like in October or so, 88, and so it was already a

333
00:16:08.460 --> 00:16:09.360
year old, right?

334
00:16:09.419 --> 00:16:13.440
It through means that, you know, we can't just legally discuss. you

335
00:16:13.440 --> 00:16:15.659
know we were able to see some of these episodes.

336
00:16:15.720 --> 00:16:20.100
And so I went to a day event and my 1st Sylvester was Delta and

337
00:16:20.100 --> 00:16:20.639
the Bannerman.

338
00:16:20.639 --> 00:16:21.000
Right.

339
00:16:21.059 --> 00:16:23.820
Which I was completely blown away by their opening credits.

340
00:16:23.879 --> 00:16:25.740
I just watched this thing happen in front of me.

341
00:16:25.799 --> 00:16:27.179
I thought, oh my goodness me.

342
00:16:27.240 --> 00:16:28.620
That was around the middle of the year.

343
00:16:28.679 --> 00:16:32.519
Todd, you and I went to one where they showed remembrance one and

344
00:16:32.519 --> 00:16:33.720
two. was only one and two.

345
00:16:33.779 --> 00:16:35.940
We also watch all the Daleks that same day.

346
00:16:36.000 --> 00:16:39.419
Remembers one and 2 was quite the contrast, let me say.

347
00:16:39.480 --> 00:16:42.720
It was probably literally the next day, if not the next day, then

348
00:16:42.720 --> 00:16:45.840
8 days later, the time in the Riny was going to be broadcast.

349
00:16:45.899 --> 00:16:48.000
So I saw Delta and the Batman.

350
00:16:48.059 --> 00:16:49.980
The 1st 2 episodes of remembrance.

351
00:16:50.039 --> 00:16:51.179
Then...

352
00:16:51.179 --> 00:16:52.440
I see Time in the Rani.

353
00:16:52.500 --> 00:16:57.659
Now can you understand why perhaps I don't have very fond views of

354
00:16:57.659 --> 00:17:00.659
time and the writing and then of the season going on because we've

355
00:17:00.659 --> 00:17:01.980
just seen remembrance.

356
00:17:02.039 --> 00:17:03.419
Remember it's the 1st 2 episodes.

357
00:17:03.480 --> 00:17:05.099
But I suppose that gave us hope because we knew that that was

358
00:17:05.099 --> 00:17:05.759
coming, I suppose.

359
00:17:05.819 --> 00:17:06.299
Yes, yes.

360
00:17:06.359 --> 00:17:09.299
Because, I mean, our experience was, of course, the reason that

361
00:17:09.299 --> 00:17:12.720
they delayed it was so that they could, because they went in to

362
00:17:12.720 --> 00:17:13.740
remembrance straight after.

363
00:17:14.460 --> 00:17:16.380
The reason they delayed it was because I don't think they felt

364
00:17:16.380 --> 00:17:19.559
like showing, giving the show as much love as they used to. like

365
00:17:19.559 --> 00:17:23.039
they were giving it in the late 70s and into the 80s.

366
00:17:23.099 --> 00:17:25.259
I think from the, when the cancellation happened, the 85

367
00:17:25.259 --> 00:17:28.619
cancellation happened, that's when suddenly they stopped caring

368
00:17:28.619 --> 00:17:32.039
about the show as much and then it, uh, although they, they sort

369
00:17:32.039 --> 00:17:33.720
of did because then they showed all the pertways again.

370
00:17:33.779 --> 00:17:37.500
But you know, they didn't feel the need to catch up and show it

371
00:17:37.500 --> 00:17:37.859
too quickly.

372
00:17:37.920 --> 00:17:42.660
That also mirrors my journey as a fan in that I was now embedded

373
00:17:42.660 --> 00:17:46.440
in organised Doctor Who fandom, and I ceased caring about Doctor

374
00:17:46.440 --> 00:17:47.339
Who on television.

375
00:17:47.400 --> 00:17:51.420
That was no longer the forum in which I received my Doctor Who.

376
00:17:51.480 --> 00:17:54.240
And so this is all a haze to me after that big Pertwee and Tom

377
00:17:54.240 --> 00:17:55.680
Baker run in 1986.

378
00:17:55.859 --> 00:17:58.559
That's basically, I've stopped watching Dot 2 on television.

379
00:17:58.619 --> 00:17:59.279
On TV, yeah.

380
00:18:08.819 --> 00:18:12.599
One of the things, though, that I think was immediately apparent

381
00:18:12.599 --> 00:18:16.619
is that we're in a quarry, but in that quarry, we have a much

382
00:18:16.619 --> 00:18:21.000
clearer sense of where everyone is and what they're doing at

383
00:18:21.000 --> 00:18:25.200
different locations in a particular scene, and we are doing a

384
00:18:25.200 --> 00:18:30.119
better job of combining visual effects and video effects, as I

385
00:18:30.119 --> 00:18:34.799
said earlier, not just on location, like we do with the traps.

386
00:18:34.859 --> 00:18:38.819
But you remember the scene where one of the locustions gets killed

387
00:18:38.819 --> 00:18:46.200
by a bangle and she falls and her hand falls into the water and

388
00:18:46.200 --> 00:18:49.980
the water is like there's froth in the water where her hand is

389
00:18:49.980 --> 00:18:51.960
while there's a special effect and stuff.

390
00:18:52.019 --> 00:18:55.859
There just seems to be a lot of care in matting all of the effects

391
00:18:55.859 --> 00:18:59.039
together and kind of making them come.

392
00:18:59.099 --> 00:19:00.720
I just thought that was an accident and they had a little bit of

393
00:19:00.720 --> 00:19:01.559
soap suns in there.

394
00:19:01.920 --> 00:19:02.400
No, no, no.

395
00:19:02.460 --> 00:19:03.420
This is a definite thing.

396
00:19:03.480 --> 00:19:04.079
That's a definite thing.

397
00:19:04.200 --> 00:19:06.359
That's what we're saying about Andrew Morgan. what we've talked

398
00:19:06.359 --> 00:19:09.180
about before, you know, against people like Richard Martin.

399
00:19:09.240 --> 00:19:10.799
He has control of the production.

400
00:19:10.859 --> 00:19:13.799
Obviously not in all places because there are things which go

401
00:19:13.799 --> 00:19:17.099
wrong, but he has created a production which coheres.

402
00:19:17.160 --> 00:19:20.819
And so you go out onto, I think it was a bad choice to move it

403
00:19:20.819 --> 00:19:24.119
from a forest where it was scripted into a quarry because that

404
00:19:24.119 --> 00:19:27.539
plays into all of those Doctor Who cliches about quarries being

405
00:19:27.539 --> 00:19:30.359
alien plants and makes it seem a bit hoary and old.

406
00:19:30.480 --> 00:19:31.859
Having?

407
00:19:31.859 --> 00:19:32.339
I don't know.

408
00:19:32.400 --> 00:19:34.200
I really don't know why they decided to do that.

409
00:19:34.259 --> 00:19:36.900
Maybe because it looked too similar to the forests of Mysterious

410
00:19:36.900 --> 00:19:39.599
Planet, but it's a decision that's been lost in time.

411
00:19:39.660 --> 00:19:43.619
But having said that, the fact that going out into that quarry

412
00:19:43.619 --> 00:19:48.000
they've made such an effort, giving it a pink sky with Quantel

413
00:19:48.000 --> 00:19:51.000
adding on the bits from the Rani's laboratory, not just the

414
00:19:51.000 --> 00:19:53.519
practical bits in the quarry, but the visual effects kind of

415
00:19:53.519 --> 00:19:57.059
dragon's head that rears over that, the fact that the model work

416
00:19:57.059 --> 00:20:01.559
is so good of the Rani's rockets taking off.

417
00:20:01.619 --> 00:20:02.880
And well matted.

418
00:20:02.880 --> 00:20:03.779
Well matted.

419
00:20:03.839 --> 00:20:07.140
It feels like a cohesive production in a way that a lot of season

420
00:20:07.140 --> 00:20:08.099
23 did not.

421
00:20:08.160 --> 00:20:10.440
Even with the tinsel in the stormwater drain.

422
00:20:10.559 --> 00:20:13.319
Well, I mean, that's a stylistic choice, and I don't necessarily

423
00:20:13.319 --> 00:20:14.039
agree with it.

424
00:20:14.099 --> 00:20:18.299
But however, there's blue rocks and the blue tinsel, which leads

425
00:20:18.299 --> 00:20:22.200
up to the Riney's headquarters, putting that in the pipe, again, as

426
00:20:22.200 --> 00:20:24.180
Nathan said, makes it feel like it's the same location.

427
00:20:24.240 --> 00:20:25.200
It's the same location.

428
00:20:25.259 --> 00:20:28.380
But interestingly too, the sky is so much better than the one only

429
00:20:28.380 --> 00:20:30.599
a year earlier in my...

430
00:20:30.660 --> 00:20:31.500
It's not too over the top.

431
00:20:31.559 --> 00:20:33.359
And that's what I take from it.

432
00:20:33.420 --> 00:20:37.500
It's just like, suddenly it's 1987 there has been a leap in

433
00:20:37.500 --> 00:20:38.279
technology.

434
00:20:38.339 --> 00:20:42.660
If you look at 85 to 87, there's that huge change.

435
00:20:42.720 --> 00:20:47.759
And in the 80s changes so much, you look at everything pre 85 and

436
00:20:47.759 --> 00:20:51.900
the last few years of the 80s can be really almost into the 90s.

437
00:20:51.960 --> 00:20:55.440
But interesting, also, we're suddenly with the technology, is the

438
00:20:55.440 --> 00:20:58.200
introduction for the 1st time of proper computer graphics.

439
00:20:58.200 --> 00:21:00.180
Yes.

440
00:21:00.180 --> 00:21:04.140
As representing real life, with, 1st of all, we've got the opening

441
00:21:04.140 --> 00:21:09.900
pre-credit sequence, which is not effective in the modern era.

442
00:21:09.960 --> 00:21:13.440
Good on them for saying, let's give this a go and saying rather

443
00:21:13.440 --> 00:21:15.960
than having a stupid card, well, little Tartar's model flying

444
00:21:15.960 --> 00:21:16.259
about.

445
00:21:16.319 --> 00:21:17.880
We've tried to use the computer graphics.

446
00:21:17.940 --> 00:21:19.559
Well, Doctor has taken its cue.

447
00:21:19.619 --> 00:21:21.359
Season 23 felt a little bit lost in time.

448
00:21:21.480 --> 00:21:24.660
They were forced to film location sequences on videotape, I think

449
00:21:24.660 --> 00:21:25.859
because of budgetary reasons.

450
00:21:25.859 --> 00:21:28.200
And so it was almost like, well, we have to do this.

451
00:21:28.259 --> 00:21:30.720
Now they've sat and thought about it and thought, Doctor Who is

452
00:21:30.720 --> 00:21:34.140
now a videotape show, how can we bring all of this together?

453
00:21:34.200 --> 00:21:38.099
So the emphasis on effects has moved from film model work to video

454
00:21:38.099 --> 00:21:41.700
model work, and with doing that, they are then able to integrate

455
00:21:41.700 --> 00:21:44.099
that better into the show that they have.

456
00:21:44.160 --> 00:21:48.420
And so Doctor Who, as a whole, looks better than it has since

457
00:21:48.420 --> 00:21:52.619
maybe the perwi era for a show that all looks like it's on the

458
00:21:52.619 --> 00:21:53.819
same wavelength.

459
00:21:53.880 --> 00:21:58.200
I mean, you look at the strange matter asteroid visual that's on

460
00:21:58.200 --> 00:21:58.980
her control.

461
00:21:59.039 --> 00:22:02.400
And you look at 12 months earlier in Terror the Voids where

462
00:22:02.400 --> 00:22:04.559
they're playing Space Invader.

463
00:22:04.619 --> 00:22:07.380
Yeah, like it's just there's no comparison.

464
00:22:07.440 --> 00:22:10.500
I think Terror the Vervoids is a good comparison for that because

465
00:22:10.500 --> 00:22:15.480
Terror the Vervoids is this weird, tremendous backward step when

466
00:22:15.480 --> 00:22:16.799
it comes to the special effects.

467
00:22:16.859 --> 00:22:20.579
Those scenes of the Hyperion 3 in space and they actually, if

468
00:22:20.579 --> 00:22:24.119
you've looked at the special edition or at the Blu-ray, they've

469
00:22:24.119 --> 00:22:28.019
cut some of those scenes because they are so woeful, bad.

470
00:22:28.079 --> 00:22:30.420
And you think, how did they let this happen?

471
00:22:30.539 --> 00:22:33.420
Well, you go 2 stories forward and suddenly they figured out how

472
00:22:33.420 --> 00:22:33.960
to do that again.

473
00:22:34.019 --> 00:22:37.799
I mean, I think it's impressive and we kind of underestimate it

474
00:22:37.799 --> 00:22:42.059
now, but the way that that image of the strange matter asteroid on

475
00:22:42.059 --> 00:22:45.779
the Rani screen is matted into the screen when we're looking at it

476
00:22:45.779 --> 00:22:46.799
from an angle.

477
00:22:46.799 --> 00:22:50.339
And so it's a parallelogram or something, some kind of

478
00:22:50.339 --> 00:22:54.299
quadrilateral, it's not just keyed into a square on the wall.

479
00:22:54.359 --> 00:22:56.880
It's actually front on, even though it's basically an angle.

480
00:22:56.940 --> 00:22:58.619
Yeah, that is Quantel, isn't it?

481
00:22:58.680 --> 00:22:59.640
That the way they manage to...

482
00:22:59.700 --> 00:23:02.579
They're able to manipulate the angle of the image, yeah.

483
00:23:02.640 --> 00:23:03.839
I think that looks really good.

484
00:23:03.900 --> 00:23:08.819
And even though the crappy kind of rotating three-dimensional

485
00:23:08.819 --> 00:23:13.559
asteroids and to a lesser degree, in the opening credits into a

486
00:23:13.559 --> 00:23:18.180
lesser degree, the TARDIS, they're bad, but that rotating galaxy

487
00:23:18.180 --> 00:23:21.299
thing out of focus is actually pretty effective, I think.

488
00:23:21.299 --> 00:23:23.099
Can we talk about the opening credits?

489
00:23:23.160 --> 00:23:23.759
Yeah, why not?

490
00:23:23.819 --> 00:23:27.660
Well, I mean, obviously they blew me away in 1988 when I saw them

491
00:23:27.660 --> 00:23:32.579
on a screen in Karlslaw 5, I believe. to get that in.

492
00:23:33.660 --> 00:23:36.240
If you know, you know.

493
00:23:36.299 --> 00:23:39.720
The thing is, I was blown away by the fact that it was not using

494
00:23:39.720 --> 00:23:42.960
the traditional linear opening credits anymore.

495
00:23:43.019 --> 00:23:44.700
And I thought, wow, this was a step forward.

496
00:23:44.759 --> 00:23:45.420
It a leap forward.

497
00:23:45.480 --> 00:23:48.660
I thought the music whilst it still wasn't the Peter Howell

498
00:23:48.660 --> 00:23:49.079
version for me.

499
00:23:49.140 --> 00:23:50.400
I still thought it was great.

500
00:23:50.460 --> 00:23:53.460
And yes, look, there are so many good things about the opening

501
00:23:53.460 --> 00:23:54.960
credits, particularly for its day.

502
00:23:55.019 --> 00:23:59.519
I think the regrettable things, and the guy who made the opening

503
00:23:59.519 --> 00:24:04.559
credits agrees with us, was the asteroids are unfortunate, but

504
00:24:04.559 --> 00:24:07.200
that's what they are, because they can't do fractals. enough

505
00:24:07.200 --> 00:24:10.680
computing power because they'd have needed weeks and weeks of

506
00:24:10.680 --> 00:24:12.480
rendering to get the fractals deep enough.

507
00:24:12.539 --> 00:24:15.420
Any asteroid of this era is a potato.

508
00:24:15.480 --> 00:24:16.259
Sea silver nemesis.

509
00:24:16.319 --> 00:24:17.279
Well, it's already a potato.

510
00:24:17.339 --> 00:24:19.740
It's a crunched up piece of paper, really, because it's pointy

511
00:24:19.859 --> 00:24:21.180
anyway, there's that.

512
00:24:21.240 --> 00:24:23.819
If only the galaxy could have been, because we're kind of moving

513
00:24:23.819 --> 00:24:24.660
around the galaxy.

514
00:24:24.720 --> 00:24:27.420
Imagine if the galaxy had been moving faster on the inside than

515
00:24:27.420 --> 00:24:27.900
the outside.

516
00:24:27.960 --> 00:24:29.460
It's just...

517
00:24:29.519 --> 00:24:30.180
That is never going to do that.

518
00:24:30.240 --> 00:24:32.220
But...

519
00:24:32.220 --> 00:24:33.299
It's just...

520
00:24:33.299 --> 00:24:33.539
Exactly.

521
00:24:33.599 --> 00:24:34.200
It's just too hard.

522
00:24:34.259 --> 00:24:36.720
But the worst thing is the doctor's face.

523
00:24:36.779 --> 00:24:37.559
Yes.

524
00:24:37.619 --> 00:24:37.980
Oh, yeah.

525
00:24:38.039 --> 00:24:42.960
Because it's, it's, um, when you can sit, yes, it's painted silver

526
00:24:42.960 --> 00:24:44.099
but that's the least of it.

527
00:24:44.160 --> 00:24:48.900
It's the fact that the face, it just fades in, it's deep etch in a

528
00:24:48.900 --> 00:24:53.099
very perfunctory way, it just goes from the 3 different states of

529
00:24:53.099 --> 00:24:57.900
his face, when you consider how elegant Colin smile is at the

530
00:24:57.900 --> 00:24:59.400
beginning of his credits.

531
00:24:59.460 --> 00:25:01.920
It's like this lovely fades through, I think, several states of

532
00:25:01.920 --> 00:25:02.640
photographs.

533
00:25:02.700 --> 00:25:04.619
Whereas this is just blink, blink.

534
00:25:04.680 --> 00:25:06.900
It's stuck on, it gave me the ear.

535
00:25:07.019 --> 00:25:09.660
It's from the 1st moment I've seen it and I've lived with that

536
00:25:09.660 --> 00:25:11.099
feeling for the last nearly 40 years.

537
00:25:11.160 --> 00:25:12.660
Let it outside.

538
00:25:12.779 --> 00:25:14.220
Yes No, no, I have.

539
00:25:14.279 --> 00:25:14.640
I have.

540
00:25:14.700 --> 00:25:16.440
I think you're right.

541
00:25:16.500 --> 00:25:20.579
The Colin thing where the lights change during the course of it

542
00:25:20.579 --> 00:25:23.220
like you underestimate how good that is, I think.

543
00:25:23.279 --> 00:25:26.640
It's got something that we miss in the modern era, I think.

544
00:25:26.700 --> 00:25:30.839
The doctor's face is the important part of the credits and it

545
00:25:30.839 --> 00:25:34.500
feels like Sylvester has been somehow shoehorned into those

546
00:25:34.500 --> 00:25:36.420
credits rather than being an organic part.

547
00:25:36.480 --> 00:25:36.839
Exactly.

548
00:25:36.900 --> 00:25:37.319
Yes, yes.

549
00:25:50.220 --> 00:25:54.599
So, let's talk about the Rani.

550
00:25:54.660 --> 00:25:56.940
Let's...

551
00:25:56.940 --> 00:26:04.319
So I have to say that I am not a big fan of Mark of the Rani, and

552
00:26:04.319 --> 00:26:10.799
the reason is that I think probably to a culpable degree, I'm in

553
00:26:10.799 --> 00:26:15.960
Doctor Who for the monsters, and there are no monsters, and the

554
00:26:15.960 --> 00:26:16.920
master doesn't count.

555
00:26:16.980 --> 00:26:22.140
It does get points for kicking a small child over in an early

556
00:26:22.140 --> 00:26:24.720
scene and it loses points for killing a dog.

557
00:26:25.259 --> 00:26:29.220
So it's not one that I go back to very much.

558
00:26:29.279 --> 00:26:32.940
And all I remember is, of course, that Kate's performance is

559
00:26:32.940 --> 00:26:37.740
markedly more muted in it than it is here.

560
00:26:37.799 --> 00:26:43.019
Now, Todd, you really like this mark of the Rani, Rani.

561
00:26:43.079 --> 00:26:44.339
I really do.

562
00:26:44.400 --> 00:26:46.980
I think that she's actually clever.

563
00:26:47.039 --> 00:26:52.559
Like she's been on earth in various circumstances collecting the

564
00:26:52.559 --> 00:26:55.740
sleeping drug for her aliens to control them.

565
00:26:55.740 --> 00:26:58.440
And she's been getting away with it for centuries, right?

566
00:26:58.500 --> 00:27:01.559
Until the master and the doctor come blundering in.

567
00:27:01.559 --> 00:27:03.359
And she's got backup plans.

568
00:27:03.420 --> 00:27:04.619
I mean, she's still quite evil.

569
00:27:04.680 --> 00:27:07.500
Like I did notice when I rewatched it, that she's still quite

570
00:27:07.500 --> 00:27:11.519
happy to kill off her henchman with the mark of the Rani.

571
00:27:11.579 --> 00:27:13.799
Oh, right when she gets Pip Baker in the corner there.

572
00:27:14.819 --> 00:27:17.220
At the drop of her hat, you know?

573
00:27:18.180 --> 00:27:20.400
Is that just dumb kill?

574
00:27:23.579 --> 00:27:26.819
But I just think she's got the great set and the master takes on

575
00:27:26.819 --> 00:27:27.960
all the villainous roles.

576
00:27:28.019 --> 00:27:29.579
Like he takes the heat off her, you know?

577
00:27:29.640 --> 00:27:31.859
She's hardly in it for the 1st 25 minutes.

578
00:27:31.920 --> 00:27:33.599
She's just in her little bit of a disguise.

579
00:27:33.660 --> 00:27:35.099
So it's really quite different.

580
00:27:35.160 --> 00:27:37.319
I mean, she's got, you know, she's got her tree things as well.

581
00:27:37.380 --> 00:27:39.960
She's got backup plans, even with Perry, she's got the powder

582
00:27:39.960 --> 00:27:41.160
stuff to get out of that.

583
00:27:41.220 --> 00:27:42.240
She's she's clever.

584
00:27:42.299 --> 00:27:46.079
I don't find her as clever in time in the running.

585
00:27:46.140 --> 00:27:48.960
I mean, she's got a different role to play because she's got to be

586
00:27:48.960 --> 00:27:49.680
front and centre.

587
00:27:49.740 --> 00:27:51.599
Things that just irritate me.

588
00:27:51.660 --> 00:27:55.319
The big hair, that nose stud, it just really gets to me.

589
00:27:55.380 --> 00:27:56.279
But she's dumb.

590
00:27:56.339 --> 00:27:59.400
Like, she's supposed to be this clever scientist, but she can't

591
00:27:59.400 --> 00:28:03.839
work out what PVC, you know, element that she needs the doctor to

592
00:28:03.839 --> 00:28:04.140
work out.

593
00:28:04.200 --> 00:28:04.680
What is it?

594
00:28:04.740 --> 00:28:06.539
It's some plastic.

595
00:28:06.599 --> 00:28:10.559
Which is such a weird description of something slightly amber

596
00:28:10.559 --> 00:28:11.579
almost opaque.

597
00:28:11.640 --> 00:28:13.980
That's such a paper Jane line.

598
00:28:14.039 --> 00:28:16.019
But she's supposed to be clever.

599
00:28:16.079 --> 00:28:16.980
She can't even do that.

600
00:28:17.039 --> 00:28:20.400
She has to have a fixed trajectory rocket for God's sake.

601
00:28:20.460 --> 00:28:21.299
You know?

602
00:28:21.359 --> 00:28:24.059
And then she gets trapped inside that cubicle, but she's just

603
00:28:24.059 --> 00:28:26.400
banging on that little bit of plastic like anybody could break

604
00:28:26.400 --> 00:28:26.700
out.

605
00:28:26.700 --> 00:28:33.119
And then the doctor just checks her in that like look to your left

606
00:28:33.119 --> 00:28:35.700
and then that little bit of a scarf thing that takes her 10

607
00:28:35.700 --> 00:28:36.599
minutes to get over.

608
00:28:36.660 --> 00:28:38.160
These things irritate me.

609
00:28:38.220 --> 00:28:41.279
I just think she's clever in the 1st story.

610
00:28:41.400 --> 00:28:43.200
I say everything you just mentioned.

611
00:28:43.259 --> 00:28:45.299
I really like about the Rani in this story.

612
00:28:45.359 --> 00:28:46.079
No.

613
00:28:46.079 --> 00:28:50.039
See, I do, and we will talk about that because she is in a way

614
00:28:50.039 --> 00:28:55.319
cartoonized because there's a real proper panto element to the

615
00:28:55.319 --> 00:28:57.839
story which we're obviously going to deal with.

616
00:28:57.900 --> 00:29:01.859
And it's not just the fact that she dresses as Mel, but it's the

617
00:29:01.859 --> 00:29:04.440
way she plays the Rani Asmel.

618
00:29:04.500 --> 00:29:08.039
And so she's defeated in a way that you can defeat a pantomime

619
00:29:08.039 --> 00:29:08.519
villain.

620
00:29:08.579 --> 00:29:12.720
And there's, obviously, there is a massive English tradition of

621
00:29:12.720 --> 00:29:16.920
pantomime and it's definitely a thing that happens and it is

622
00:29:16.920 --> 00:29:17.640
happening here.

623
00:29:17.700 --> 00:29:24.299
So the thing that she brings from Mark of the Rani is that she's

624
00:29:24.299 --> 00:29:25.619
ruler of a planet.

625
00:29:25.680 --> 00:29:31.319
So only this had instead of been Lukersha had been me as a great

626
00:29:31.319 --> 00:29:35.039
Doctor Who Planet names of all time, Maya Simi Agori.

627
00:29:35.039 --> 00:29:36.059
Yeah, pretty great.

628
00:29:36.119 --> 00:29:37.680
She is Robert Holmes.

629
00:29:37.740 --> 00:29:39.720
She does get like in Mark of the Rani.

630
00:29:39.779 --> 00:29:43.140
I was actually quite surprised at how ruthless she actually is.

631
00:29:43.200 --> 00:29:47.039
And also she doesn't really care for the people either.

632
00:29:47.099 --> 00:29:50.099
Like, she's actually quite evil, but it just gets overshadowed by

633
00:29:50.099 --> 00:29:50.940
what the master's doing.

634
00:29:51.000 --> 00:29:54.299
Yeah, look, I think it is a performance team because obviously

635
00:29:54.299 --> 00:29:58.079
this 2nd appearance by the Rani is written by her creators, Pip

636
00:29:58.079 --> 00:29:58.680
and Jane.

637
00:29:58.740 --> 00:30:03.480
And I think on page, they've retained a lot of what made the Rani

638
00:30:03.480 --> 00:30:06.599
different and made her a villain who wasn't just the master.

639
00:30:06.660 --> 00:30:07.319
Yeah.

640
00:30:07.319 --> 00:30:11.940
She retains that iciness and that dispassion for things, which is

641
00:30:11.940 --> 00:30:13.980
commented upon by Mel.

642
00:30:14.039 --> 00:30:17.579
And she tells Bass as such, which says, you know, Lilocutions mean

643
00:30:17.579 --> 00:30:18.539
absolutely nothing to me.

644
00:30:18.599 --> 00:30:19.680
And I do believe that.

645
00:30:19.740 --> 00:30:21.660
That sets her aside as a villain.

646
00:30:21.720 --> 00:30:25.079
And I think the things that make her different in this story come

647
00:30:25.079 --> 00:30:27.359
down to her presentation rather than the way she's written.

648
00:30:27.420 --> 00:30:28.140
Exactly.

649
00:30:28.200 --> 00:30:31.200
And going back to what I was saying before is the whole thing is

650
00:30:31.200 --> 00:30:33.240
just betrayed in a much more kidzy way.

651
00:30:33.299 --> 00:30:37.920
Like Todd, I much prefer her in the 1st her 1st outing.

652
00:30:37.980 --> 00:30:42.059
I think we got a little bit of it in what we've all just seen in

653
00:30:42.059 --> 00:30:46.319
the 21st century where you've got the Rani sort of stating that

654
00:30:46.319 --> 00:30:49.079
you know, as time lords, the doctor is slumming it by being around

655
00:30:49.079 --> 00:30:49.859
all of these humans.

656
00:30:49.920 --> 00:30:52.680
But I think it's a thing that we've come back to time and time

657
00:30:52.680 --> 00:30:58.200
again on this 2nd time round series is that the 2nd time round, the

658
00:30:58.200 --> 00:31:03.000
adversary, the enemy is made that little bit more generic.

659
00:31:03.059 --> 00:31:05.579
And I think that the Rani suffers from that too.

660
00:31:05.640 --> 00:31:09.599
She does, no, she isn't just the master, but she does become more

661
00:31:09.599 --> 00:31:10.619
like the master.

662
00:31:10.740 --> 00:31:14.759
She does become a little bit more the generic moustache twirling

663
00:31:14.759 --> 00:31:18.299
villain, and I think that's not helped by the lack of elegance

664
00:31:18.299 --> 00:31:21.960
around her lines, just all the interactions.

665
00:31:22.019 --> 00:31:24.779
The thing that Mark the Rani has going for it, which actually has

666
00:31:24.779 --> 00:31:28.200
gone down in my estimation since I 1st saw it in 1986.

667
00:31:28.440 --> 00:31:29.759
It would have been January 86.

668
00:31:30.000 --> 00:31:34.380
It doesn't resolve in a satisfactory way. got this great setup and

669
00:31:34.380 --> 00:31:35.819
then it kind of just disintegrates.

670
00:31:35.880 --> 00:31:38.400
But what it's got going for it is the look.

671
00:31:38.460 --> 00:31:39.539
It looks so good.

672
00:31:39.599 --> 00:31:41.940
It's the BBC classic drama.

673
00:31:42.000 --> 00:31:45.299
It's an old museum, like a kind of an old Sydney town type place.

674
00:31:45.359 --> 00:31:49.259
But, you know, it's just so much better presented and the fact

675
00:31:49.259 --> 00:31:53.279
that the performance is more downplayed and colder rather than

676
00:31:53.279 --> 00:31:56.700
Vampia, I think, even if the same elements are there in time in

677
00:31:56.700 --> 00:32:00.720
the Rani, because it's plagued so much bigger, it's just much less

678
00:32:00.720 --> 00:32:01.319
interesting for me.

679
00:32:01.380 --> 00:32:04.140
It took a moment to retrieve the file assignment, but it's Iron

680
00:32:04.140 --> 00:32:04.980
Bridge Gorge Museum.

681
00:32:05.039 --> 00:32:05.579
Right.

682
00:32:05.640 --> 00:32:07.380
You can file it back away now.

683
00:32:07.440 --> 00:32:09.119
Thank you, it's gone into the resources of my mind.

684
00:32:09.180 --> 00:32:13.559
I do think there are still sciency things that the Rani gets to do

685
00:32:13.559 --> 00:32:15.000
in time in the Rani.

686
00:32:15.059 --> 00:32:18.539
And I'm not that worried that she needs to recruit the doctor as

687
00:32:18.539 --> 00:32:23.640
an expert because one of the things that it reminds us of is that

688
00:32:23.640 --> 00:32:27.359
the doctor is a scientist as well, which is not something that

689
00:32:27.359 --> 00:32:31.079
we've mentioned terribly frequently, perhaps in the last few years

690
00:32:31.079 --> 00:32:34.859
and that they have different specialisms, in a way.

691
00:32:34.920 --> 00:32:38.880
And we learn that he's, you know, expert on thermodynamics and

692
00:32:38.880 --> 00:32:41.819
she's a neurochemist or something like that.

693
00:32:41.880 --> 00:32:43.799
So they have different roles.

694
00:32:43.859 --> 00:32:46.740
She's created this brain, which is grown in the thing.

695
00:32:46.799 --> 00:32:51.900
She has a plan that involves time stuff because she's a timelord.

696
00:32:51.960 --> 00:32:56.099
And so all of those sorts of things, you know, she still has that

697
00:32:56.099 --> 00:33:03.119
focus on science and she doesn't seek power in a way for its own

698
00:33:03.119 --> 00:33:03.779
sake.

699
00:33:03.779 --> 00:33:08.039
Now, admittedly, you know, what you're going to do with the, what's

700
00:33:08.039 --> 00:33:09.779
it called, a time manipulator.

701
00:33:09.839 --> 00:33:11.339
For God's sake.

702
00:33:11.460 --> 00:33:12.900
You know what?

703
00:33:12.900 --> 00:33:14.940
I think she's going to bring back Omega.

704
00:33:15.000 --> 00:33:16.980
Oh, but certainly.

705
00:33:17.039 --> 00:33:23.519
But I have to say that the things that you dislike about her in

706
00:33:23.519 --> 00:33:28.559
this, Simon, are the things that I think were inevitable and in

707
00:33:28.559 --> 00:33:33.420
some ways the right thing to do, which is he's Kate O'Mara. let

708
00:33:33.420 --> 00:33:35.220
her go to town Yes.

709
00:33:35.279 --> 00:33:36.960
Why is that inevitable though?

710
00:33:37.019 --> 00:33:38.579
Because it's Kate O'Mara.

711
00:33:38.640 --> 00:33:42.240
Well, let me just say, I think Rani is a distillation of Pip and

712
00:33:42.240 --> 00:33:43.440
Jane Baker's interests.

713
00:33:43.500 --> 00:33:47.759
They have this weird preoccupation with language, as we know, but

714
00:33:47.759 --> 00:33:49.259
they're also interested in science.

715
00:33:49.319 --> 00:33:52.740
They read science journals and they were interested in bringing

716
00:33:52.740 --> 00:33:55.619
that to Doc 2. didn't do it very elegantly sometimes, but I think

717
00:33:55.619 --> 00:33:59.279
the Rani is what they want in a character in Doctor Two.

718
00:33:59.339 --> 00:34:03.720
What I think maybe some people don't like and what the Rani

719
00:34:03.720 --> 00:34:04.680
suffers from in the story.

720
00:34:04.740 --> 00:34:07.920
I actually personally like it like Nathan does, is that there's a

721
00:34:07.920 --> 00:34:09.900
collision of real world events.

722
00:34:09.960 --> 00:34:14.460
So Kate O'Mara, in the meantime, has been playing Caress Morale in

723
00:34:14.460 --> 00:34:15.000
dynasty.

724
00:34:15.059 --> 00:34:18.719
And I think when she comes back to play the Rani, not only does

725
00:34:18.719 --> 00:34:22.920
she still have caresses hair, but she's still got, oh, she does.

726
00:34:23.039 --> 00:34:25.019
Does she caress her hair?

727
00:34:28.559 --> 00:34:31.019
Do you want to caress it?

728
00:34:33.000 --> 00:34:36.059
she brings back to the role.

729
00:34:36.179 --> 00:34:38.820
And it's also a symptom of the Rani having been moved to centre

730
00:34:38.820 --> 00:34:39.300
stage.

731
00:34:39.360 --> 00:34:42.480
She's no longer a 2nd banana to the master, and so now she's the

732
00:34:42.480 --> 00:34:45.480
chief villain, and she's occupying that space, but she brings that

733
00:34:45.480 --> 00:34:49.380
externalisation in the performance, which is required in something

734
00:34:49.380 --> 00:34:50.400
like dynasty.

735
00:34:50.460 --> 00:34:54.420
I don't think she necessarily puts herself back in the same space

736
00:34:54.420 --> 00:34:57.659
that she was performing in and Mark the Rani.

737
00:34:57.719 --> 00:35:03.000
I think she's bringing that LA soapy, very obvious kind of

738
00:35:03.000 --> 00:35:08.280
television performance to the Rani, which is a hugely 80s thing as

739
00:35:08.280 --> 00:35:08.460
well.

740
00:35:08.519 --> 00:35:10.079
It's absolutely up to the minute.

741
00:35:10.139 --> 00:35:14.400
It's the sort of, you know, the big TV events were sort of giant

742
00:35:14.400 --> 00:35:18.480
bitch fights on dynasty and who shot that kind of thing.

743
00:35:18.539 --> 00:35:20.940
Like that was huge in the 1980s.

744
00:35:21.000 --> 00:35:23.519
And so you can see why they're doing that.

745
00:35:23.639 --> 00:35:27.300
But then the other thing that they have is the utterly baffling

746
00:35:27.300 --> 00:35:32.099
decision to get the Rani to dress up as Mel.

747
00:35:32.460 --> 00:35:34.500
I say something here.

748
00:35:34.619 --> 00:35:39.300
It is the baffling decision because Mel has no character.

749
00:35:39.360 --> 00:35:42.059
Can I just, I just personally think she's got no character up to

750
00:35:42.059 --> 00:35:42.659
this point at all.

751
00:35:42.719 --> 00:35:44.280
She's not met the Rani.

752
00:35:44.340 --> 00:35:48.840
So the running has had to spy on Mel and the doctor to work out

753
00:35:48.840 --> 00:35:50.099
how to play Mel.

754
00:35:50.219 --> 00:35:55.619
And at the time, and this distracts me from the performance of the

755
00:35:55.619 --> 00:35:58.199
Rani, like because she's not been the Rani.

756
00:35:58.260 --> 00:35:59.219
She been Mel.

757
00:35:59.340 --> 00:36:02.219
And at the time, I absolutely thought it was just the worst thing

758
00:36:02.219 --> 00:36:03.119
ever.

759
00:36:04.559 --> 00:36:09.239
So I sigh people, because I went back to it, and she's actually

760
00:36:09.239 --> 00:36:14.519
doing a bloody good job, and I actually really quite enjoy it now

761
00:36:14.579 --> 00:36:17.639
seeing how Bonnie Langford does it, seeing how she does it.

762
00:36:17.699 --> 00:36:21.480
And when she drops character, and like calls him Chris or whatever

763
00:36:21.480 --> 00:36:21.900
she does.

764
00:36:21.960 --> 00:36:26.820
She goes, she goes. she goes back to, it's actually underplayed

765
00:36:26.820 --> 00:36:29.820
quite often, and it reminds me of Mark the Rani, like when she

766
00:36:29.820 --> 00:36:33.000
just breaks that for a moment, and I really, really enjoyed it.

767
00:36:33.059 --> 00:36:35.940
And for me, that's the strongest part of this story.

768
00:36:36.000 --> 00:36:40.920
I, you know, I've spent quite a bit of this sort of berating this

769
00:36:40.920 --> 00:36:44.639
production, but I actually, for some bizarre reason, now I

770
00:36:44.639 --> 00:36:45.719
actually think it works really well.

771
00:36:45.780 --> 00:36:49.739
No one can chew on a wasp before spitting out a one word insult

772
00:36:49.739 --> 00:36:51.000
like cater.

773
00:36:51.539 --> 00:36:56.699
I think the idea is almost unforgivable, but the execution is

774
00:36:56.699 --> 00:36:57.239
superb.

775
00:36:57.300 --> 00:36:58.619
It's so great.

776
00:36:58.679 --> 00:37:01.019
It's literally the best thing about.

777
00:37:01.079 --> 00:37:04.440
But it was one of the most, I did want the earth to open up and

778
00:37:04.440 --> 00:37:06.780
swallow me when I was watching that in 1988.

779
00:37:06.900 --> 00:37:11.519
I understand that, but I do think in retrospect, this story is the

780
00:37:11.519 --> 00:37:13.920
one where Kate dresses up as Bonnie.

781
00:37:13.980 --> 00:37:19.320
And because Bonnie has been on English television since she was a

782
00:37:19.320 --> 00:37:20.820
tiny child at this point.

783
00:37:20.880 --> 00:37:23.940
She's been certainly on English stage. since she was a child.

784
00:37:24.000 --> 00:37:25.079
Violet Elizabeth Bot.

785
00:37:25.139 --> 00:37:25.800
True, yes.

786
00:37:25.860 --> 00:37:26.219
Yeah.

787
00:37:26.280 --> 00:37:28.380
So everyone kind of knows her.

788
00:37:28.440 --> 00:37:29.460
She's a thing.

789
00:37:29.579 --> 00:37:30.960
She is Bonnie Langford.

790
00:37:31.019 --> 00:37:31.619
Yeah, exactly.

791
00:37:31.679 --> 00:37:33.420
And so it is Cadis Bonnie.

792
00:37:33.480 --> 00:37:38.340
Mel doesn't have a character partly because 5 of her 1st 6

793
00:37:38.340 --> 00:37:41.340
episodes are written by Pip and Jane Baker.

794
00:37:41.400 --> 00:37:44.280
And also because Doctor Who Companions in the classic series

795
00:37:44.280 --> 00:37:46.320
rarely have characters.

796
00:37:46.380 --> 00:37:49.260
What they do have is a great opening story that sets the template

797
00:37:49.260 --> 00:37:51.000
for what they are, which Mel never gets.

798
00:37:51.059 --> 00:37:51.599
That's right.

799
00:37:51.659 --> 00:37:54.360
And she's just got the one paragraph bio, essentially.

800
00:37:54.420 --> 00:37:57.239
The computer programmer from Peace Pottage, which she is nothing

801
00:37:57.239 --> 00:37:57.960
at all like.

802
00:37:58.139 --> 00:38:00.539
Like, you do scripting.

803
00:38:00.599 --> 00:38:02.519
I teach software engineering.

804
00:38:02.579 --> 00:38:05.820
And then the doctor goes, put this little string of whatever

805
00:38:05.820 --> 00:38:09.840
around the bracelet on the legs of the locations and you do

806
00:38:09.840 --> 00:38:10.679
computer programming.

807
00:38:10.679 --> 00:38:11.820
You know how.

808
00:38:11.880 --> 00:38:14.039
The target has to be the right sort of wire.

809
00:38:14.099 --> 00:38:15.000
It does.

810
00:38:15.000 --> 00:38:17.460
I wouldn't know what from an ornament.

811
00:38:17.940 --> 00:38:24.480
So you have Kate playing Bonnie and it's absolute panto.

812
00:38:24.539 --> 00:38:26.940
Those things where she reverts to being Kate.

813
00:38:27.000 --> 00:38:28.800
Perhaps she's fashion conscious.

814
00:38:30.119 --> 00:38:32.880
There are sides to the audience.

815
00:38:32.940 --> 00:38:34.260
Yes, yes.

816
00:38:34.260 --> 00:38:37.199
And so she's being a panto villain.

817
00:38:37.260 --> 00:38:40.559
She's occasionally throwing to the audience in this sardonic way.

818
00:38:40.619 --> 00:38:44.820
And in fact, it's kind of funny when the doctor overhears them

819
00:38:44.820 --> 00:38:48.360
because they're so stagey and she has to quickly walk it back.

820
00:38:48.420 --> 00:38:49.500
Oh, nothing, you know.

821
00:38:49.739 --> 00:38:52.380
So, like, oh, I love it.

822
00:38:52.440 --> 00:38:53.760
It's so funny.

823
00:38:53.880 --> 00:38:55.199
I mean, it is so great.

824
00:38:55.260 --> 00:38:56.880
I do agree with you.

825
00:38:56.940 --> 00:38:59.699
Like, because now I understand British culture and I now

826
00:38:59.699 --> 00:39:00.840
understand Banto.

827
00:39:00.900 --> 00:39:03.480
When I was 15 I didn't have any reference point for that.

828
00:39:03.539 --> 00:39:06.300
So this is obviously like British audiences will get it.

829
00:39:06.360 --> 00:39:10.019
But as an Australian boy in Sydney, I didn't get that and it just

830
00:39:10.019 --> 00:39:14.159
went over my head and I just found it embarrassing and going, what

831
00:39:14.159 --> 00:39:14.579
is this?

832
00:39:14.639 --> 00:39:15.000
you know?

833
00:39:15.059 --> 00:39:19.860
And I was longing for a return to the gritziness of things that I

834
00:39:19.860 --> 00:39:23.519
still had on VHS that I was still watching far more than this

835
00:39:23.519 --> 00:39:25.800
things like Vengeance and Varos, things like Resurrection of the

836
00:39:25.800 --> 00:39:28.380
Darks, all those sorts of, even the 5 doctors for its sort of

837
00:39:28.380 --> 00:39:33.059
relative simplicity was felt far more mature than what I was being

838
00:39:33.059 --> 00:39:33.539
put through here.

839
00:39:33.599 --> 00:39:37.139
But I mean, it's not maturity that's the problem, is it?

840
00:39:37.199 --> 00:39:38.460
It's not that this is immature.

841
00:39:38.519 --> 00:39:39.960
It's immature.

842
00:39:40.019 --> 00:39:41.400
Well, no, but what it's doing.

843
00:39:41.460 --> 00:39:45.000
Like, I think that there is kids TV elements to it and stuff, and

844
00:39:45.000 --> 00:39:47.460
it is Pip and Jane, and they are deliberately writing to

845
00:39:47.460 --> 00:39:48.119
children.

846
00:39:48.119 --> 00:39:51.840
And the science staff is very much their vague memory that the

847
00:39:51.840 --> 00:39:56.280
show was intended to have some kind of didactic purpose, I think.

848
00:39:56.340 --> 00:39:59.039
Yeah, like the mid-20th century BBC did.

849
00:39:59.159 --> 00:40:05.219
But what it's doing is it's drawing on a theatrical tradition.

850
00:40:05.280 --> 00:40:08.820
And so what it's not really trying to do is represent a sort of

851
00:40:08.820 --> 00:40:11.639
coherent or credible sort of reality.

852
00:40:11.699 --> 00:40:14.579
It's being kind of metatextual.

853
00:40:14.639 --> 00:40:17.039
And so there's something grown up about that, I think.

854
00:40:17.099 --> 00:40:21.480
I think we have to unpick the decades of critique that have been

855
00:40:21.480 --> 00:40:25.380
overlaid onto this, where the fandoms received wisdom, basically

856
00:40:25.380 --> 00:40:27.300
saying what a terrible idea this was.

857
00:40:27.360 --> 00:40:31.920
And to go back and understand what an imaginative leap it was in

858
00:40:31.920 --> 00:40:36.179
Doctor Who storytelling terms, to have the villain impersonate the

859
00:40:36.179 --> 00:40:36.659
companion.

860
00:40:36.780 --> 00:40:38.820
We haven't seen that before.

861
00:40:38.880 --> 00:40:40.619
That's new for Doctor Who.

862
00:40:40.679 --> 00:40:43.980
There is a different and more serious version of this story where

863
00:40:43.980 --> 00:40:47.760
the Rani is presenting herself as a generic companion to the

864
00:40:47.760 --> 00:40:48.119
doctor.

865
00:40:48.239 --> 00:40:53.039
Whereas the fact that not only is she dressing up as the companion

866
00:40:53.039 --> 00:40:55.380
and putting on the voice and the wig.

867
00:40:56.400 --> 00:41:01.619
But also the fact that you can see the Rani passing herself off as

868
00:41:01.619 --> 00:41:04.800
say, the 1st Romana or Nissa.

869
00:41:04.860 --> 00:41:08.699
You can actually maybe buy into that, but the fact that it's Mel.

870
00:41:08.760 --> 00:41:14.820
In fact, it's Bonnie Langford is what people can't take on board.

871
00:41:14.880 --> 00:41:18.960
And actually, that's what I think is the genius of it because it

872
00:41:18.960 --> 00:41:21.239
turns the story into something else entirely.

873
00:41:21.300 --> 00:41:25.260
But like having things like these crucial scenes, you know, like

874
00:41:25.260 --> 00:41:30.179
the Dr. Pixies outfit scene, which is kind of a thing at this

875
00:41:30.179 --> 00:41:34.320
point because the show has become much more aware of regeneration

876
00:41:34.320 --> 00:41:38.820
and because this producer is now doing his 3rd regeneration.

877
00:41:38.880 --> 00:41:41.940
So he has to find a new way of doing it.

878
00:41:42.000 --> 00:41:45.840
But having Kate play the companions role and having Kate comment

879
00:41:45.840 --> 00:41:47.460
sardonically on his clothes.

880
00:41:47.460 --> 00:41:49.980
Every time it cuts away from the choice of costume.

881
00:41:50.039 --> 00:41:51.719
It's to an even bigger iron.

882
00:41:51.840 --> 00:41:53.099
Yes, yes.

883
00:41:57.900 --> 00:42:00.539
Can I just say we cut into that scene?

884
00:42:00.599 --> 00:42:04.079
It's very elegantly done from Mel in the quarry saying one thing

885
00:42:04.079 --> 00:42:06.719
about the doctor, you can't miss him in that outfit.

886
00:42:06.840 --> 00:42:09.539
Q, Collin's coat being...

887
00:42:09.599 --> 00:42:10.079
Yeah.

888
00:42:10.139 --> 00:42:12.539
Wouldn't that have been in the scripting, you know?

889
00:42:12.599 --> 00:42:15.179
Yeah, but it's an elegant piece of scripting and people don't give

890
00:42:15.179 --> 00:42:17.579
Pip and Jane enough credit for the things that they get right.

891
00:42:17.639 --> 00:42:18.960
Yeah, that's true.

892
00:42:19.019 --> 00:42:20.519
I mean, they really are trying here.

893
00:42:20.579 --> 00:42:24.599
They're trying to present, um, alien race that doesn't look like

894
00:42:24.599 --> 00:42:26.880
humans with the locersians.

895
00:42:26.940 --> 00:42:30.900
They're trying to do monsters with their different viewpoints.

896
00:42:30.960 --> 00:42:32.639
I mean, they're all cartoon.

897
00:42:32.699 --> 00:42:35.579
Like, and I don't think the occursions work because who runs like

898
00:42:35.579 --> 00:42:38.460
that when you can pick up things like we normally do and I don't

899
00:42:38.460 --> 00:42:39.780
buy that at all.

900
00:42:39.840 --> 00:42:40.920
I run.

901
00:42:41.940 --> 00:42:46.079
But, you know, you know, they really are looking at what makes

902
00:42:46.079 --> 00:42:48.719
Doctor Who and trying to put in things.

903
00:42:48.719 --> 00:42:51.900
I think that the locustions actually look great.

904
00:42:52.019 --> 00:42:53.940
That are probably one of the best things about the story.

905
00:42:54.360 --> 00:42:58.440
Yeah, they've got a really consistent look with the clothing that

906
00:42:58.440 --> 00:43:01.440
they wear, the colouration, is really good.

907
00:43:01.500 --> 00:43:04.800
I love the fact that the mains that they have coming out of their

908
00:43:04.800 --> 00:43:06.539
head aren't all just identical.

909
00:43:06.659 --> 00:43:07.679
It's all different, aren't they?

910
00:43:07.800 --> 00:43:08.400
They're all different.

911
00:43:08.460 --> 00:43:10.320
And I think they're not just accidentally different because that's

912
00:43:10.320 --> 00:43:12.239
just the way they came out of the thing.

913
00:43:12.300 --> 00:43:13.619
They're deliberately different.

914
00:43:13.619 --> 00:43:16.679
So it's like Kona, who's a very handsome young, you know, played

915
00:43:16.679 --> 00:43:18.900
by this very handsome young man. hes the handsome young hero.

916
00:43:18.960 --> 00:43:22.380
He's got this very large mane, which is impeccable.

917
00:43:22.440 --> 00:43:25.500
And then you've got Farun's Maine, which is kind of, obviously

918
00:43:25.500 --> 00:43:28.199
she's an older woman, so it's got a bit of grain and she's female

919
00:43:28.199 --> 00:43:28.860
so it's coloured.

920
00:43:28.920 --> 00:43:31.679
And then you've got Icona's ugly brother.

921
00:43:31.679 --> 00:43:34.619
And he's just a shambles.

922
00:43:34.679 --> 00:43:38.099
So it's like that, it's not really nice that they've got their

923
00:43:38.099 --> 00:43:39.659
that, that feels like they've gone to an effort.

924
00:43:39.719 --> 00:43:40.559
Like that's not just an accident.

925
00:43:40.619 --> 00:43:44.219
And they sort of gesture at them being lizardy by just giving them

926
00:43:44.219 --> 00:43:49.019
a few scales on the face without making them look too odd.

927
00:43:49.079 --> 00:43:52.920
And I actually think that Icona Mark Greenstreet is doing

928
00:43:52.920 --> 00:43:57.179
something with his hands and the way that both he and San hold

929
00:43:57.179 --> 00:44:03.239
their arms when they run is odd, and it is an attempt to make them

930
00:44:03.239 --> 00:44:04.440
look less human.

931
00:44:04.500 --> 00:44:07.980
It is an attempt to make them look alien in a way.

932
00:44:08.039 --> 00:44:11.820
And there's that scene too, where they all walk into the leisure

933
00:44:11.820 --> 00:44:16.199
centre and they kiss the rock, kiss the rock. like there's just

934
00:44:16.199 --> 00:44:17.820
little alien themes.

935
00:44:17.880 --> 00:44:19.619
That's what we were saying, cohesive production.

936
00:44:19.679 --> 00:44:23.460
Yeah, but it's a 60s way of presenting an alien race.

937
00:44:23.519 --> 00:44:28.079
In particular, it's not like Yurak and the and the tet traps who

938
00:44:28.079 --> 00:44:29.639
are just sort of big rubber constitutes.

939
00:44:29.699 --> 00:44:32.099
But I think that comes from Pip and Jane Baker.

940
00:44:32.159 --> 00:44:34.500
I'm pretty sure that they would have been quite descriptive about

941
00:44:34.500 --> 00:44:38.639
what they wanted. in that, not just from the directoral point of

942
00:44:38.639 --> 00:44:38.820
view.

943
00:44:38.880 --> 00:44:41.820
Pippin Jane's problem is not any of that.

944
00:44:41.880 --> 00:44:46.079
Pip and Jane's problem is their inability to write dialogue.

945
00:44:46.139 --> 00:44:49.079
Now, I know we're in the heightened Doctor Who universe here and

946
00:44:49.079 --> 00:44:52.139
you want it to be science and so on like that, but I know people

947
00:44:52.139 --> 00:44:55.800
critique Eric Saywood's dialogues being not naturalistic, but

948
00:44:55.800 --> 00:44:58.320
Pippin James gives that a real run for its money.

949
00:44:58.380 --> 00:44:59.639
Yeah, I think that's true.

950
00:44:59.699 --> 00:45:00.659
Very unfortunate.

951
00:45:00.719 --> 00:45:02.639
And you can see people like Mark Green Street.

952
00:45:02.699 --> 00:45:04.679
And I think it affects the performances.

953
00:45:04.739 --> 00:45:08.340
It affects what you could have some quite, you can tell that, you

954
00:45:08.340 --> 00:45:09.840
know, you've got some good hactors here.

955
00:45:09.900 --> 00:45:12.539
You've got Mark Green Street. you've got Wanda Ventham, and you've

956
00:45:12.539 --> 00:45:16.380
got Donald Pickering, and they are all real serious actors, and

957
00:45:16.380 --> 00:45:19.380
they are, and Kate Amara is a real serious actor in her own way.

958
00:45:19.440 --> 00:45:22.380
But the point is, their performance is inevitably going to be

959
00:45:22.380 --> 00:45:26.519
affected by this ridiculous dialogue that they're having to say.

960
00:45:26.579 --> 00:45:31.260
Before we started recording, I mentioned Cat O'Mara's line, the

961
00:45:31.260 --> 00:45:33.719
bumbling fools ready made as a sacrificial lamb.

962
00:45:33.840 --> 00:45:38.039
Because she actually swallows that in embarrassment and quickly

963
00:45:38.039 --> 00:45:40.500
sort of ushers another character out of the way.

964
00:45:40.559 --> 00:45:45.900
So, Simon, you remember in 1998, we went and spent a lovely

965
00:45:45.900 --> 00:45:49.800
afternoon with Wanda Ventham and Donald Pickering.

966
00:45:49.800 --> 00:45:51.360
Husband and wife. amazing.

967
00:45:51.420 --> 00:45:54.719
Well, of course, those 2 had known each other for many, many years

968
00:45:54.719 --> 00:45:59.219
and in fact, they told stories about Wanda's, I think, then 12

969
00:45:58.320 --> 00:46:03.000
year-old son listening at the door just to hear Donald's very blue

970
00:46:03.000 --> 00:46:06.539
stories. like, of course, that's Benedict Cumberbatch.

971
00:46:06.599 --> 00:46:11.159
But we spent a very lovely afternoon with them and basically, you

972
00:46:11.159 --> 00:46:12.239
know, talked through everything.

973
00:46:12.360 --> 00:46:14.880
They were such a wonderful double act, and they had various things

974
00:46:14.880 --> 00:46:16.440
to say, which we've just talked about.

975
00:46:16.500 --> 00:46:20.699
So, it was very funny seeing Donald Pickering's reaction when you

976
00:46:20.699 --> 00:46:24.659
talk to him about BS because he was looking at pictures of BS in

977
00:46:24.659 --> 00:46:26.099
Doctor 2 magazine they brought along.

978
00:46:26.159 --> 00:46:29.280
His brow just sort of dark and he went, I just felt like such an

979
00:46:29.280 --> 00:46:29.940
asshole.

980
00:46:31.019 --> 00:46:35.760
Which I think says a lot, but also Wanda, we spoke to her about

981
00:46:35.760 --> 00:46:39.300
the dialogue, obviously presenting it in a way as wasn't it crap

982
00:46:39.300 --> 00:46:42.360
dialogue presented as, you know, how do you present dialogue of

983
00:46:42.360 --> 00:46:43.260
this nature?

984
00:46:43.320 --> 00:46:46.260
And she said, you have to treat it as Shakespeare.

985
00:46:46.320 --> 00:46:49.320
You have to deliver it with all the conviction of Shakespeare.

986
00:46:49.380 --> 00:46:51.840
And I think that's what they're doing in this story.

987
00:46:51.900 --> 00:46:55.019
It's maybe not quite appropriate for what the rest of the story

988
00:46:55.019 --> 00:46:55.380
is.

989
00:46:55.440 --> 00:46:57.000
I do think it helps to ground it a little bit.

990
00:46:57.059 --> 00:47:02.159
I actually find that scene where Faroon, there's 2 moments where

991
00:47:02.159 --> 00:47:06.599
Wanda, I think, is her performance is really quite moving, and the

992
00:47:06.599 --> 00:47:12.239
one is when she discovers Sun's body, and the way that Icona

993
00:47:12.239 --> 00:47:14.400
gently breaks it to her.

994
00:47:14.460 --> 00:47:18.059
And the way that then Bonnie reacts.

995
00:47:18.119 --> 00:47:21.780
And, you know, there's some fake tears and stuff happening there.

996
00:47:21.840 --> 00:47:24.300
I had to be told.

997
00:47:24.420 --> 00:47:26.820
Yeah, I know, I know, I think it's one really good.

998
00:47:26.940 --> 00:47:30.239
And then the other one, which again is a little bit overwrought

999
00:47:30.239 --> 00:47:33.059
but I think actually sells it, which is normal, basically. based

1000
00:47:33.059 --> 00:47:35.280
without San, which I think is wonderful.

1001
00:47:35.340 --> 00:47:37.320
I mean, they are really really great.

1002
00:47:37.380 --> 00:47:42.239
And I think, you know, the closest the story comes to being about

1003
00:47:42.239 --> 00:47:47.940
anything, is the sacrifice that Bayos makes, that all the time we

1004
00:47:47.940 --> 00:47:52.679
despise Bayos as a collaborator, but the reason he collaborates is

1005
00:47:52.679 --> 00:47:57.420
the same reason that he dies, it's to save his people.

1006
00:47:57.480 --> 00:48:01.139
So he collaborates to keep his people safe and he sacrifices his

1007
00:48:01.139 --> 00:48:02.519
life to keep his people safe.

1008
00:48:02.579 --> 00:48:06.420
I like the sequence where he says, when the doctor asks him, you're

1009
00:48:06.420 --> 00:48:07.739
why have you assisted?

1010
00:48:07.739 --> 00:48:10.380
and he says, collaborated is the word you're avoiding doctor?

1011
00:48:10.440 --> 00:48:12.480
But also, there are different kinds of collaborators.

1012
00:48:12.539 --> 00:48:14.280
There are collaborators who are out to get advancements for

1013
00:48:14.280 --> 00:48:14.699
themselves.

1014
00:48:14.760 --> 00:48:18.480
He is a collaborator because he thinks that's the best of 2

1015
00:48:18.480 --> 00:48:20.340
several bad options, which is fine.

1016
00:48:20.400 --> 00:48:24.599
And the fact that the story does, visit that, like, who is the, is

1017
00:48:24.599 --> 00:48:28.079
it better to run off to the hills and and be the rebel encampment

1018
00:48:28.079 --> 00:48:30.360
or is it better to try and...

1019
00:48:30.480 --> 00:48:31.860
Are you Bayas or are you Icona?

1020
00:48:31.860 --> 00:48:32.340
Exactly.

1021
00:48:32.400 --> 00:48:34.079
And I think it doesn't do that very deeply.

1022
00:48:34.199 --> 00:48:36.000
But at least at least that does it.

1023
00:48:36.059 --> 00:48:36.780
Yeah, yeah.

1024
00:48:36.840 --> 00:48:40.679
And Bayos, you know, like it validates his approach by...

1025
00:48:40.739 --> 00:48:41.639
And so we're sympathetic to him.

1026
00:48:41.699 --> 00:48:42.900
We don't dislike him.

1027
00:48:42.900 --> 00:48:43.380
No, no.

1028
00:48:43.440 --> 00:48:44.820
And then I cona validates.

1029
00:48:44.880 --> 00:48:46.920
Exactly as well by taking over at the end.

1030
00:48:46.980 --> 00:48:48.360
There's actually character work going on.

1031
00:48:48.360 --> 00:48:51.480
That's not a critique, which people lay at the feet of a Pippin

1032
00:48:51.480 --> 00:48:52.619
Jane script, but there is.

1033
00:48:52.679 --> 00:48:56.820
Can I just say as well, it puts that scene where they discover

1034
00:48:56.820 --> 00:49:01.019
San's skeleton into context because Wanda said that immediately

1035
00:49:01.019 --> 00:49:03.960
before they started rolling, one of the very camp dresses came

1036
00:49:03.960 --> 00:49:04.199
up.

1037
00:49:04.260 --> 00:49:05.880
Trent said, do be careful, darling.

1038
00:49:05.940 --> 00:49:08.820
There's tet trap dung everywhere, and she had to deliver that

1039
00:49:08.820 --> 00:49:12.119
scene, trying to get a straight face.

1040
00:49:13.860 --> 00:49:15.480
Brilliant.

1041
00:49:24.539 --> 00:49:25.260
Simon's right.

1042
00:49:25.320 --> 00:49:26.579
It's the dialogue that lets it down.

1043
00:49:26.579 --> 00:49:31.860
And the performances that these guys actually make it work, whereas

1044
00:49:31.860 --> 00:49:36.659
I think for me, in the following 2 stories, I think there's much

1045
00:49:36.659 --> 00:49:40.019
better dialogue, but there's performances that don't work for me.

1046
00:49:40.079 --> 00:49:40.920
Very much so.

1047
00:49:41.039 --> 00:49:43.380
And the direction is not anywhere.

1048
00:49:43.440 --> 00:49:44.039
It's very flat.

1049
00:49:44.099 --> 00:49:45.119
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1050
00:49:45.179 --> 00:49:46.619
And there's occasional good lines.

1051
00:49:46.679 --> 00:49:49.619
I mean, obviously, Pip and Jane never met a piece of naturalistic

1052
00:49:49.619 --> 00:49:54.539
dialogue, but are you prepared to abandon walking in case you

1053
00:49:54.539 --> 00:49:55.920
squash an insect underfoot.

1054
00:49:55.980 --> 00:49:58.679
I think it's actually a really good line and a great one line

1055
00:49:58.679 --> 00:50:00.719
distillation of what the Rani's character is.

1056
00:50:00.840 --> 00:50:02.340
You need that sort of line.

1057
00:50:02.340 --> 00:50:04.619
It's just the fact that they come one after the other.

1058
00:50:04.619 --> 00:50:07.199
And that's actually kind of a nice one.

1059
00:50:07.260 --> 00:50:10.079
It's not the sacrificial land, but I can't even repeat it, Nathan.

1060
00:50:10.139 --> 00:50:12.719
It's all these other ones which are just ridiculous.

1061
00:50:12.780 --> 00:50:13.980
And they don't float.

1062
00:50:14.039 --> 00:50:16.920
Sometimes they don't even seem to flow like one line into the

1063
00:50:16.920 --> 00:50:17.159
next.

1064
00:50:17.219 --> 00:50:19.500
Did they just like some random sentences?

1065
00:50:19.559 --> 00:50:22.559
The worst thing that happened to Pip and Jane is they were asked

1066
00:50:22.559 --> 00:50:27.300
to write space-based stories because they're kind of very fruity

1067
00:50:27.300 --> 00:50:30.780
English language is suited to an historical story.

1068
00:50:30.840 --> 00:50:31.980
It doesn't work.

1069
00:50:32.039 --> 00:50:34.199
It really doesn't poke you in the eye nearly as much.

1070
00:50:34.260 --> 00:50:39.239
When it's put in the mouths of Commander Tonka Travers or the Rani

1071
00:50:39.239 --> 00:50:40.739
it sounds immediately more artificial.

1072
00:50:40.860 --> 00:50:42.000
And I agree with you.

1073
00:50:42.059 --> 00:50:45.420
I think it's much more naturalistic in Mark of the Rani, and I

1074
00:50:45.420 --> 00:50:48.179
think you get two of the vervoids, and then it ramps up with the

1075
00:50:48.179 --> 00:50:49.380
ultimate faux part two.

1076
00:50:49.440 --> 00:50:51.960
So by the time I get to hear, it's dialogue fatigue.

1077
00:50:52.019 --> 00:50:53.519
I'm really struggling with it.

1078
00:50:53.579 --> 00:50:58.800
And we really do get a huge wodge of Pip and Jane at the end of

1079
00:50:58.800 --> 00:51:00.900
season 23 in the beginning of season 24.

1080
00:51:01.079 --> 00:51:03.059
It is a lot to cope with I think.

1081
00:51:03.119 --> 00:51:07.380
Because you said before that Pip and Jane wrote 5 of Mel's 1st 6

1082
00:51:07.380 --> 00:51:08.519
episodes, no.

1083
00:51:08.579 --> 00:51:10.800
They wrote 9 of 10.

1084
00:51:11.699 --> 00:51:13.079
Exactly.

1085
00:51:13.139 --> 00:51:16.139
They basically write practically half of her material.

1086
00:51:16.199 --> 00:51:19.139
Yeah, I think he can get away with aliens being given quite weird

1087
00:51:19.139 --> 00:51:22.860
dialogue, but it's when it comes out of the mouths of our

1088
00:51:22.860 --> 00:51:24.300
supposedly human characters.

1089
00:51:24.360 --> 00:51:29.219
My favourite line of the story is when Mel says, I could nominate

1090
00:51:29.219 --> 00:51:31.739
a few candidates for extermination myself.

1091
00:51:31.800 --> 00:51:34.380
And you think, who says that?

1092
00:51:34.739 --> 00:51:36.239
I do.

1093
00:51:37.920 --> 00:51:41.579
I think going back to Bonnie, if I may, I'm not saying she's a bad

1094
00:51:41.579 --> 00:51:44.639
actress, but I think as Todd sort of implied before, I think she's

1095
00:51:44.639 --> 00:51:49.019
she's giving a performance which is far bigger than the medium

1096
00:51:49.019 --> 00:51:53.519
requires or demands, shall I say, particularly in this era.

1097
00:51:53.579 --> 00:51:56.760
I think she's much, much better in the 21st century iteration.

1098
00:51:56.820 --> 00:51:59.940
Although I had to say in this morning's episode where, I don't

1099
00:51:59.940 --> 00:52:03.239
know what the line is, where she says that the Rani is, I've met

1100
00:52:03.239 --> 00:52:04.920
you before and you're utterly evil or something.

1101
00:52:04.980 --> 00:52:10.019
It's like, it was really channelling the male of the late 80s.

1102
00:52:10.079 --> 00:52:12.119
It was almost the same line reading.

1103
00:52:12.179 --> 00:52:14.099
How utterly evil.

1104
00:52:14.219 --> 00:52:18.719
But what I will say is that I think in her defence, and I've used

1105
00:52:18.719 --> 00:52:22.079
this defence, even before she came back in the 21st century, that

1106
00:52:22.079 --> 00:52:25.619
the character and the actress were for Colin's doctor.

1107
00:52:25.679 --> 00:52:26.039
Yes.

1108
00:52:26.159 --> 00:52:29.519
And I think she does work so much better against the bigness.

1109
00:52:29.579 --> 00:52:32.340
Collins a much bigger stage year performance.

1110
00:52:32.400 --> 00:52:33.480
He's a bigger guy.

1111
00:52:33.539 --> 00:52:35.039
He's got the loud outfit.

1112
00:52:35.099 --> 00:52:37.860
And so having her, he kind of really works and vervoids an

1113
00:52:37.860 --> 00:52:41.519
ultimate foe, whereas I think Mel in season 24 is when you kind of

1114
00:52:41.519 --> 00:52:43.320
go, oh, I don't know whether this is quite right.

1115
00:52:43.380 --> 00:52:45.900
I would agree that apart from Delta, I really like her in Delta.

1116
00:52:45.960 --> 00:52:47.880
I would agree that it works in verboids.

1117
00:52:48.000 --> 00:52:50.940
I think it works less so in Ultimate Foe.

1118
00:52:51.000 --> 00:52:53.639
I think there's, you know, was it dull and boring as they come or

1119
00:52:53.639 --> 00:52:54.119
whatever it is.

1120
00:52:54.179 --> 00:52:55.920
Yeah, yeah, she's not as good in that.

1121
00:52:55.980 --> 00:53:00.539
And I do think that Mel does work in George of the Man Room quite

1122
00:53:00.539 --> 00:53:01.139
effectively.

1123
00:53:01.199 --> 00:53:05.460
But having listened to her on Big Finish, I think seeing the

1124
00:53:05.460 --> 00:53:07.860
progression of the character and what she brought to that before

1125
00:53:07.860 --> 00:53:13.139
she came back into the current show, just seeing and hearing her

1126
00:53:13.139 --> 00:53:15.420
performance change has been a delight.

1127
00:53:15.480 --> 00:53:17.579
And today I thought she was again tremendous.

1128
00:53:17.639 --> 00:53:21.119
So, I mean, I don't hate it, but she's just too big for the small

1129
00:53:21.119 --> 00:53:23.579
screen at this point for me to be a believable character.

1130
00:53:23.639 --> 00:53:28.019
It's interesting that we both like her in Delta and what we miss

1131
00:53:28.019 --> 00:53:31.320
of course, is because we've got all this space stories, is the

1132
00:53:31.320 --> 00:53:33.960
Delta. it's not contemporary earth, but it's as close as you're

1133
00:53:33.960 --> 00:53:36.480
going to get, how fascinating it would have been to have seen Mel

1134
00:53:36.480 --> 00:53:38.219
in a present day story.

1135
00:53:38.280 --> 00:53:38.940
That's right.

1136
00:53:39.000 --> 00:53:42.000
Deltron Banner is the only story where she actually interacts with

1137
00:53:42.000 --> 00:53:42.539
human beings.

1138
00:53:42.659 --> 00:53:45.780
And it's set on earth and it's on location.

1139
00:53:45.840 --> 00:53:47.460
And she turns it right down.

1140
00:53:47.519 --> 00:53:48.059
Yeah.

1141
00:53:48.119 --> 00:53:49.380
She's gracing that.

1142
00:53:49.440 --> 00:53:52.800
But also, I think time in the Rony distorts our view of Mel.

1143
00:53:52.860 --> 00:53:57.239
I think without Mel and Bonnie's performance in Time and the Rani

1144
00:53:57.239 --> 00:53:58.679
Mel feels different.

1145
00:53:58.739 --> 00:54:02.400
This story is almost a distillation of what people don't like

1146
00:54:02.400 --> 00:54:03.000
about it.

1147
00:54:03.059 --> 00:54:03.599
Not me.

1148
00:54:03.659 --> 00:54:04.860
I like it.

1149
00:54:04.920 --> 00:54:10.739
But she's too big and she's wearing an outlandish outfit, even in

1150
00:54:10.739 --> 00:54:11.579
1987.

1151
00:54:11.820 --> 00:54:13.860
That's not something that you would have seen people wearing down

1152
00:54:13.860 --> 00:54:14.340
the street.

1153
00:54:14.400 --> 00:54:18.119
Whereas her outfit in Paradise Towers or Terra the vervoids.

1154
00:54:18.179 --> 00:54:19.260
You could get away with that.

1155
00:54:19.320 --> 00:54:21.119
It would look it would look weird.

1156
00:54:21.179 --> 00:54:22.440
But it was all the time.

1157
00:54:22.500 --> 00:54:24.840
Whereas what on earth is she wearing?

1158
00:54:24.900 --> 00:54:32.099
And also the candy stripe and the white tights in a quarry. muddy

1159
00:54:32.099 --> 00:54:33.000
wet quarry.

1160
00:54:33.059 --> 00:54:34.260
It's so bizarre.

1161
00:54:34.320 --> 00:54:36.719
And then the fact that because the Rani is dressing up to

1162
00:54:36.719 --> 00:54:41.280
impersonate her, she has to adopt that most outlandish of costumes

1163
00:54:41.639 --> 00:54:42.420
pretty great, actually.

1164
00:54:42.659 --> 00:54:44.400
Fantastic.

1165
00:54:44.460 --> 00:54:48.119
I see that it offends people sensibilities in some way.

1166
00:54:48.179 --> 00:54:52.079
And I think time and there only distorts our idea of what Mel is.

1167
00:54:52.139 --> 00:54:55.980
Maybe it's KJ Mara's impression of her, which distorts our idea.

1168
00:54:56.039 --> 00:54:56.760
Yeah, could very well be.

1169
00:54:56.880 --> 00:55:00.300
When she comes back in the giggle, she actually gives an interview

1170
00:55:00.300 --> 00:55:04.139
to DWM, where she actually says that she thought that she did a

1171
00:55:04.139 --> 00:55:09.179
bad job as Mel, which made me really sad and the interviewer

1172
00:55:09.179 --> 00:55:12.000
obviously kind of says, no, that's ridiculous.

1173
00:55:12.059 --> 00:55:15.300
You know, you were great, you did what you were meant to do.

1174
00:55:15.360 --> 00:55:22.079
And she jumped at the opportunity to come back and do a more

1175
00:55:22.079 --> 00:55:26.579
mature job this time round, which I think, you know, she obviously

1176
00:55:26.579 --> 00:55:27.659
has managed to do.

1177
00:55:27.719 --> 00:55:30.300
It was delightful seeing her in the kitchen.

1178
00:55:30.360 --> 00:55:30.900
Wonderful.

1179
00:55:31.440 --> 00:55:34.679
Because the job that she's doing back then is the job of a child.

1180
00:55:34.739 --> 00:55:35.940
She's a child star.

1181
00:55:36.000 --> 00:55:39.539
Obviously, she's a grown woman, but she's sort of channelling that

1182
00:55:39.539 --> 00:55:44.699
kind of child star energy into a family TV series for Jog 2.

1183
00:55:44.820 --> 00:55:45.900
Now she's a grown woman.

1184
00:55:45.960 --> 00:55:50.099
She's got all of those years on the stage in dramatic roles.

1185
00:55:50.219 --> 00:55:53.579
She's got that incredible role in EastEnders, which she won awards

1186
00:55:53.579 --> 00:55:57.300
for with her reaction to her child's death on screen, things like

1187
00:55:57.300 --> 00:55:57.539
that.

1188
00:55:57.599 --> 00:56:00.539
She's able to bring all of that life experience to bear.

1189
00:56:00.599 --> 00:56:03.900
And because Mel was only ever Bonnie.

1190
00:56:03.960 --> 00:56:06.059
Mel now is bonning.

1191
00:56:18.659 --> 00:56:25.139
So, as we've already alluded to, we have all watched the reality

1192
00:56:25.139 --> 00:56:29.880
war mere moments before sitting down to record...

1193
00:56:29.880 --> 00:56:32.460
Literally 5 minutes between stopping and getting in the car to

1194
00:56:32.460 --> 00:56:32.760
come here.

1195
00:56:32.820 --> 00:56:36.000
I did get up at quarter to 4 this morning.

1196
00:56:36.480 --> 00:56:38.940
You flew to watch. as early as possible.

1197
00:56:39.059 --> 00:56:42.539
No, I, like Simon, I finished about 10 minutes before I left.

1198
00:56:42.659 --> 00:56:46.739
And Russell very clearly wanted to bring the Rani back, partly

1199
00:56:46.739 --> 00:56:51.900
because every major female character in the history of the new

1200
00:56:51.900 --> 00:56:55.440
series has been rumoured to be secretly the rhyme.

1201
00:56:55.500 --> 00:56:58.559
And so at one point we have to do it.

1202
00:56:58.679 --> 00:57:02.460
And also, I think, you know, it's Russell's mission, I guess, to

1203
00:57:02.460 --> 00:57:07.380
give as much of the classic series law to a new audience, a 21st

1204
00:57:07.380 --> 00:57:08.280
century audience.

1205
00:57:08.340 --> 00:57:14.820
And my feeling was that he didn't do a very bad job of this in the

1206
00:57:14.820 --> 00:57:19.800
sense that the performance isn't the Catomara performance from

1207
00:57:19.800 --> 00:57:21.420
Time in the Rani, I think.

1208
00:57:21.480 --> 00:57:24.539
It's a lot more muted than that.

1209
00:57:24.599 --> 00:57:28.199
It's not the full-throated panto. vampi, but not camp.

1210
00:57:28.260 --> 00:57:29.340
It's not scenery chewing.

1211
00:57:29.400 --> 00:57:30.360
Yeah, it's not scenery chain.

1212
00:57:30.420 --> 00:57:30.840
Yeah.

1213
00:57:30.900 --> 00:57:34.500
And having 2 actresses actually play the Rani in various aspects

1214
00:57:34.500 --> 00:57:37.800
is actually gives it a lot of colour and flavour, and I really

1215
00:57:37.800 --> 00:57:41.159
like the fact that Mrs. Flood needs to see another day.

1216
00:57:41.219 --> 00:57:43.139
But Archie, I think, did a wonderful job.

1217
00:57:43.199 --> 00:57:45.840
She had so much exposition to get through, but she made it seem

1218
00:57:45.840 --> 00:57:48.000
effortless, but the Rani still had a plan.

1219
00:57:48.059 --> 00:57:51.420
The Rani's plans do seem to be getting bigger and bigger and

1220
00:57:51.420 --> 00:57:51.719
bigger.

1221
00:57:51.780 --> 00:57:53.639
Do you think maybe very unfairly.

1222
00:57:53.699 --> 00:57:56.639
Ah, Japanjabi was meant to be the Rani and Mark of the Rani, and

1223
00:57:56.639 --> 00:57:59.460
Mrs. Flood was meant to be the old crone running half house.

1224
00:58:00.539 --> 00:58:02.219
Come on in.

1225
00:58:03.179 --> 00:58:09.000
Well, so we did have some elements of the Rani in that one of the

1226
00:58:09.000 --> 00:58:12.179
things that we know the Rani does is dress up as the doctor's

1227
00:58:12.179 --> 00:58:12.780
companion.

1228
00:58:12.840 --> 00:58:14.760
And so we do see her.

1229
00:58:14.820 --> 00:58:18.659
I think this was Brendan's comment in the 2nd great and bountiful

1230
00:58:18.659 --> 00:58:19.260
human empire.

1231
00:58:19.320 --> 00:58:26.400
Mrs. Fod does dress variously as Clara, Rory and Romana one in

1232
00:58:26.400 --> 00:58:30.659
series one of this era of Doctor Who.

1233
00:58:30.719 --> 00:58:34.440
If only she turned up in Sarah Jane's hand of fear outfit.

1234
00:58:35.039 --> 00:58:37.320
Just like Andy Pandy.

1235
00:58:37.380 --> 00:58:41.519
I would have actually quite liked it if the Roddy and Mel, when

1236
00:58:41.519 --> 00:58:43.500
they finally met, were wearing the same out.

1237
00:58:43.559 --> 00:58:45.179
They're delicious.

1238
00:58:45.239 --> 00:58:48.179
Oh, can I just say that is the one thing for all of Pip and Jane's

1239
00:58:48.179 --> 00:58:48.599
greatness.

1240
00:58:48.659 --> 00:58:52.079
We missed out on the scene in Time in the Rani, of the Rani

1241
00:58:52.079 --> 00:58:54.900
dressed as Mel and Mel coming from.

1242
00:58:54.960 --> 00:58:58.199
That should have been the scene that you hinged everything on.

1243
00:58:58.260 --> 00:58:59.639
Yeah, absolutely.

1244
00:58:59.699 --> 00:59:02.460
And and she's still quite scien-y, I think.

1245
00:59:02.519 --> 00:59:06.960
I think she did have a plan, like, with all these wishes and what

1246
00:59:06.960 --> 00:59:07.860
the vindicator.

1247
00:59:07.920 --> 00:59:09.599
There was all that science-y stuff to do with that.

1248
00:59:09.659 --> 00:59:10.980
So I was quite happy with all that.

1249
00:59:11.039 --> 00:59:13.800
I think she avoids being missy.

1250
00:59:13.860 --> 00:59:14.400
Yes.

1251
00:59:14.519 --> 00:59:19.860
Because Missy as such was such a uniquely brilliant portrayal and

1252
00:59:19.860 --> 00:59:22.440
characterisation, but I think they've started to feed off each

1253
00:59:22.440 --> 00:59:24.719
other, which is what the best characterisations do.

1254
00:59:24.780 --> 00:59:29.579
I think the floor with Archie is that she's only done those two.

1255
00:59:29.699 --> 00:59:32.219
Well, I know she was at the end of that previous episode, the

1256
00:59:32.219 --> 00:59:35.159
Eurovision episode, but I wanted there to be more of her.

1257
00:59:36.000 --> 00:59:39.420
And I would hope that she would come back, despite being eaten by

1258
00:59:39.420 --> 00:59:40.079
Omier.

1259
00:59:40.139 --> 00:59:40.920
I don't...

1260
00:59:40.920 --> 00:59:44.340
I'd hope to...

1261
00:59:44.400 --> 00:59:45.900
I tend to.

1262
00:59:45.960 --> 00:59:50.579
But look, but given the fact that if we look at the trajectory of

1263
00:59:50.579 --> 00:59:54.179
any villain monster anything, they start with a kind of a unique

1264
00:59:54.179 --> 00:59:57.659
concept or a relatively unique concept, become more generic of the

1265
00:59:57.659 --> 01:00:02.400
2nd time round, and then the 3rd go, they or 3rd or 4th go, they

1266
01:00:02.400 --> 01:00:04.920
try and do something a bit different and try and expand on it.

1267
01:00:04.980 --> 01:00:08.280
I'm not prepared to say that we're necessarily at that point, but

1268
01:00:08.280 --> 01:00:12.420
I think that they didn't just make her even more generic a

1269
01:00:12.420 --> 01:00:12.960
villain.

1270
01:00:13.019 --> 01:00:16.559
I originally thought we've had Missy, why do we need the Rani?

1271
01:00:16.619 --> 01:00:20.099
I mean, in a sense, we've had the evil female time lord.

1272
01:00:20.159 --> 01:00:21.900
So why do we need the Rani?

1273
01:00:21.960 --> 01:00:25.980
But because the Rani isn't out to destroy the doctor

1274
01:00:25.980 --> 01:00:27.360
specifically?

1275
01:00:27.420 --> 01:00:31.860
And because the Rani usually has some kind of plan that involves

1276
01:00:31.860 --> 01:00:38.400
her power that is kind of mediated through some kind of science

1277
01:00:38.400 --> 01:00:41.280
although here, you know, as always, it's a combination of science

1278
01:00:41.280 --> 01:00:47.039
and kind of magic and alchemy, that in a way, what we do have is

1279
01:00:47.039 --> 01:00:51.179
raining back in the time of the Rani Rani and making it a little

1280
01:00:51.179 --> 01:00:52.860
bit more like the original.

1281
01:00:52.920 --> 01:00:57.119
But you still get all those lovelier sides and comments from Mrs

1282
01:00:57.119 --> 01:00:58.860
Flood, like she gets to do all of that.

1283
01:00:58.920 --> 01:01:03.659
And can I just say those platform shoes that Archie was wearing, my

1284
01:01:03.659 --> 01:01:06.360
god, walking around the sets and all that sort of thing?

1285
01:01:06.420 --> 01:01:06.960
Did you notice that?

1286
01:01:07.079 --> 01:01:08.039
costume?

1287
01:01:08.099 --> 01:01:09.420
They were really built up.

1288
01:01:09.480 --> 01:01:11.639
Like she was on some... the outfit was great.

1289
01:01:11.699 --> 01:01:12.719
Oh, yeah, she looked wonderful.

1290
01:01:12.780 --> 01:01:13.679
Yeah.

1291
01:01:13.739 --> 01:01:16.800
Like it's such a callback and her hair and everything.

1292
01:01:16.860 --> 01:01:18.179
Oh, God, there I go.

1293
01:01:18.239 --> 01:01:19.980
Yeah, the hair.

1294
01:01:20.039 --> 01:01:23.639
But the thing that I think I can see in all 3 of those portrayals

1295
01:01:23.639 --> 01:01:28.019
of the Rani and why the Rani is not just missy, is because they're

1296
01:01:28.019 --> 01:01:29.039
all at the academy together.

1297
01:01:29.099 --> 01:01:32.159
And so you can imagine that, you know, the master and the doctor

1298
01:01:32.159 --> 01:01:34.860
are having some kind of bitch session fight sort of over here and

1299
01:01:34.860 --> 01:01:36.960
trying to outdo each other and blah, blah, blah.

1300
01:01:37.019 --> 01:01:39.539
And the Rani is on the other side of the classroom lab just

1301
01:01:39.539 --> 01:01:42.059
looking at them going, just wanting to get her experiment.

1302
01:01:42.179 --> 01:01:44.760
Just wanting to get there, his experiment, those idiots over there

1303
01:01:44.760 --> 01:01:47.519
and basically being, you were thinking like that they were just

1304
01:01:47.519 --> 01:01:47.940
fools.

1305
01:01:47.940 --> 01:01:50.400
Releasing dinosaur to eat the president's cat.

1306
01:01:50.460 --> 01:01:51.300
For example.

1307
01:01:51.360 --> 01:01:54.960
I love that she's still taken with dinosaurs, even if they're bone

1308
01:01:54.960 --> 01:01:55.619
dinosaurs.

1309
01:01:55.920 --> 01:02:00.360
I have to say, obviously, I think the Rani is possibly the best

1310
01:02:00.360 --> 01:02:03.719
thing. about the season finale that we just saw and a lot of that

1311
01:02:03.719 --> 01:02:04.860
is down to Archie.

1312
01:02:04.920 --> 01:02:08.039
The thing which did disappoint me was her relationship with the

1313
01:02:08.039 --> 01:02:08.699
doctor.

1314
01:02:08.760 --> 01:02:13.320
She's always had an adversarial and almost belittling relationship

1315
01:02:13.320 --> 01:02:14.280
with the doctor.

1316
01:02:14.400 --> 01:02:18.539
She's never bought into that kind of that flirting with him that a

1317
01:02:18.539 --> 01:02:20.639
lot of other RTD villains do.

1318
01:02:20.699 --> 01:02:23.280
And I thought it was a shame that that was their relationship.

1319
01:02:23.340 --> 01:02:26.639
Whereas I think she could have been the much colder, more

1320
01:02:26.639 --> 01:02:30.300
dispassionate representative of the Rani, whereas Mrs. Flood could

1321
01:02:30.300 --> 01:02:33.840
occupy the position of being the cosier, friendlier Rani.

1322
01:02:33.900 --> 01:02:37.679
I think to the join with me and we can rule the galaxy together

1323
01:02:37.679 --> 01:02:41.039
offer is a kind of thing that's characteristic of the master

1324
01:02:41.039 --> 01:02:42.599
rather than a variety.

1325
01:02:42.659 --> 01:02:43.920
Yes, the Rani wouldn't want him there.

1326
01:02:43.920 --> 01:02:45.119
Getting in the way.

1327
01:02:45.179 --> 01:02:46.679
Getting under a feet, for goodness sake.

1328
01:02:46.739 --> 01:02:48.900
Ronnie doesn't want to run a galaxy. too much work.

1329
01:02:48.960 --> 01:02:52.320
She wants the galaxy to be her slave workforce while she conducts

1330
01:02:52.320 --> 01:02:54.239
her experiment in the leptonic era.

1331
01:02:55.079 --> 01:02:57.360
Well, what, of course, we're missing.

1332
01:02:57.420 --> 01:03:01.019
We were missing from the Reality War is what happens to the Rani

1333
01:03:01.019 --> 01:03:04.079
at the end of her previous 2 story.

1334
01:03:04.139 --> 01:03:06.719
And that is to kind of be hoist by her own potato.

1335
01:03:06.780 --> 01:03:08.760
I mean, so I suppose she is hoist her own batai because she gets

1336
01:03:08.760 --> 01:03:09.539
eaten by Omega.

1337
01:03:09.599 --> 01:03:11.880
But you just needed that final scene of her being, you know, going

1338
01:03:11.880 --> 01:03:15.000
off in her Tartars with like, you know, dinosaurs hatching or

1339
01:03:15.000 --> 01:03:17.940
Tetraps prodding her or something, you know, Mrs. Flood sort of

1340
01:03:17.940 --> 01:03:18.599
making her tea or something.

1341
01:03:18.719 --> 01:03:20.400
I was prepared to...

1342
01:03:20.400 --> 01:03:23.880
Bet money that Mrs. Flood was kind of going to lose it with the

1343
01:03:23.880 --> 01:03:26.460
Archie Rani and turn into Yurak.

1344
01:03:26.760 --> 01:03:29.159
She was going to...

1345
01:03:29.280 --> 01:03:29.880
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1346
01:03:29.940 --> 01:03:30.659
I thought that that was it.

1347
01:03:30.719 --> 01:03:33.360
And I was forgetting the Rani out of the way and she says, I can

1348
01:03:33.360 --> 01:03:34.920
control the machine.

1349
01:03:35.460 --> 01:03:39.539
I was also disappointed that Mrs. Flood didn't escape with the

1350
01:03:39.539 --> 01:03:41.940
time ring more in a Genesis of the Daleks kind of way.

1351
01:03:42.480 --> 01:03:44.400
Rolling around on the floor.

1352
01:03:44.639 --> 01:03:48.719
Rather than in a sort of a Captain Jack kind of way. with his

1353
01:03:48.719 --> 01:03:49.260
band.

1354
01:03:49.320 --> 01:03:53.340
Yes, I wanted to see her in the immortal words of dimensions in

1355
01:03:53.340 --> 01:03:55.679
time, hoist by her own petardis.

1356
01:03:55.739 --> 01:03:56.760
Oh my god.

1357
01:03:56.820 --> 01:03:58.800
Why did we talk about dimensions in time?

1358
01:03:58.860 --> 01:04:00.420
I haven't seen it forever.

1359
01:04:00.480 --> 01:04:04.199
What we're missing these days is Kate Tamara's performance and she

1360
01:04:04.199 --> 01:04:05.219
is the OG.

1361
01:04:05.280 --> 01:04:08.340
I want to talk about what Kate Amara means to me because she's

1362
01:04:08.340 --> 01:04:10.260
embedded in the fabric of Dog 2.

1363
01:04:10.440 --> 01:04:12.239
I think she's the 80s villain.

1364
01:04:12.300 --> 01:04:14.699
Like the master is the 70s villain.

1365
01:04:14.699 --> 01:04:19.679
And Kaysomara has such an incredible relationship with Doctor Who

1366
01:04:19.679 --> 01:04:21.480
because not only does she come back.

1367
01:04:21.539 --> 01:04:24.900
She's in the story, she comes back to kick off a new doctor.

1368
01:04:24.960 --> 01:04:29.760
She then comes back, 6 years later for the big anniversary

1369
01:04:29.760 --> 01:04:34.860
runaround, which is seen by 16000000 people where they're on the

1370
01:04:34.860 --> 01:04:35.639
EastEnders lot.

1371
01:04:35.699 --> 01:04:37.079
She's the villain of choice for that.

1372
01:04:37.139 --> 01:04:39.360
That would have set back the show coming back another couple of

1373
01:04:39.360 --> 01:04:39.599
years.

1374
01:04:40.619 --> 01:04:44.099
The reason people keep saying is the Rani coming back, not because

1375
01:04:44.099 --> 01:04:46.739
she was tremendous character, although she was, but it's because

1376
01:04:46.739 --> 01:04:48.000
she's important to the show.

1377
01:04:48.059 --> 01:04:51.239
And I think Kate O'Mara's involvement in the show was great

1378
01:04:51.239 --> 01:04:56.039
because Kate O'Mara not only had the history with Colin Baker, who

1379
01:04:56.039 --> 01:05:00.059
she'd starred with in the brothers, which lent Frishon to those

1380
01:05:00.059 --> 01:05:05.400
scenes, she was also married, of course, to Jeremy Young, who

1381
01:05:05.400 --> 01:05:07.980
played Cal in 100,000 BC.

1382
01:05:08.159 --> 01:05:13.320
She was then later married to Richard Willis, who played Vash in

1383
01:05:13.320 --> 01:05:13.980
full circle.

1384
01:05:14.039 --> 01:05:14.699
Wow.

1385
01:05:14.820 --> 01:05:20.340
She also had a baby by Ian Cullen, who was Ixta in the Aztec.

1386
01:05:20.400 --> 01:05:24.059
She, she is like, she's like, kidding me?

1387
01:05:24.119 --> 01:05:27.599
She's like Clara in the 50th anniversary.

1388
01:05:27.719 --> 01:05:31.619
He's woven throughout the history of Doctor Who.

1389
01:05:31.679 --> 01:05:36.059
And I just think she is such an incredible presence as the Rani

1390
01:05:36.059 --> 01:05:39.900
the Rani, especially in this story, Time and the Rani, is her.

1391
01:05:39.960 --> 01:05:41.639
It's Catomara powered.

1392
01:05:41.699 --> 01:05:44.159
And I think we were very lucky to have her.

1393
01:05:44.219 --> 01:05:49.079
And so, do you remember the 50th anniversary convention in London

1394
01:05:49.079 --> 01:05:49.860
which we attended?

1395
01:05:49.920 --> 01:05:50.400
She was there.

1396
01:05:50.460 --> 01:05:55.500
Yes, sitting next to Peter Davidson on a panel with this

1397
01:05:55.500 --> 01:05:58.260
incredible mane of silvery gray hair.

1398
01:05:58.320 --> 01:06:01.920
She looked wonderful and she was very ill at the time.

1399
01:06:01.980 --> 01:06:06.239
She died like 3 months later from ovarian cancer, but she wanted

1400
01:06:06.239 --> 01:06:11.699
to be there, and seeing her there in the flesh, the Rani from all

1401
01:06:11.699 --> 01:06:15.000
of those years ago, just meant a lot to me, and I was so pleased

1402
01:06:15.000 --> 01:06:15.840
that I got to see her.

1403
01:06:15.960 --> 01:06:18.900
Now do that all again and call it an unearthly child.

1404
01:06:47.099 --> 01:06:49.619
Well, that's all about this week.

1405
01:06:49.679 --> 01:06:53.340
We'll be back next week to catch the second appearance of Blonfel

1406
01:06:53.340 --> 01:06:56.760
Fotch Passimir Day Slovene in Broomtown.

1407
01:06:56.880 --> 01:07:00.719
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts

1408
01:07:00.719 --> 01:07:04.559
and you can keep up with us on our website, 500yearDiary.com, where

1409
01:07:04.559 --> 01:07:07.739
you'll find our social media links, as well as links to all of our

1410
01:07:07.739 --> 01:07:11.820
other podcasts, including our other Doctor Who podcasts, Flight

1411
01:07:11.820 --> 01:07:15.420
through Entirety, and the 2nd great and bountiful Human Empire.

1412
01:07:15.480 --> 01:07:20.639
Until next time, all together now. leave the goal.

1413
01:07:20.699 --> 01:07:22.800
It's the man I want.

1414
01:07:22.860 --> 01:07:25.139
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

1415
01:07:25.199 --> 01:07:25.980
Good night.

1416
01:07:26.039 --> 01:07:26.460
Bye bye.

1417
01:07:26.519 --> 01:07:27.420
See you soon.

1418
01:07:39.480 --> 01:07:43.440
That was 500 Year Diary, starring Todd Beelby, Nathan Bottomley

1419
01:07:43.440 --> 01:07:44.940
Peter Griffiths, and Simon Moore.

1420
01:07:45.000 --> 01:07:47.400
The theme was composed by Cameron Lamb.

1421
01:07:47.460 --> 01:07:51.659
This episode, an even bigger eye roll was recorded on the 1st of

1422
01:07:51.659 --> 01:07:54.960
June 2025 and released on the 15th of June.

1423
01:07:55.019 --> 01:08:00.539
To commemorate the life of Cato Mara back in 2021, our James Bond

1424
01:08:00.539 --> 01:08:04.440
commentary podcast, Bondfinger, did a short series of commentaries

1425
01:08:04.440 --> 01:08:07.920
on some of her TV performances from the 60s and 70s.

1426
01:08:07.980 --> 01:08:12.539
You can check them out at bondfinger.com slash Omarathon.

1427
01:08:22.920 --> 01:08:26.279
Now do that all again and call it unearthly child.

1428
01:08:28.079 --> 01:08:31.260
I knew when I was making that.

1429
01:08:31.260 --> 01:08:32.279
That's where we go out.

1430
01:08:32.399 --> 01:08:33.960
That's it.

1431
01:08:35.340 --> 01:08:36.899
That's it.

1432
01:08:36.960 --> 01:08:37.739
That's it.

1433
01:08:38.159 --> 01:08:39.960
I don't get it.

1434
01:08:40.020 --> 01:08:49.439
Because he called it 100,000 PC. Oh, and a small part of me died.

1435
01:08:49.859 --> 01:08:54.720
But it's just how beautifully heartfelt that speech was followed

1436
01:08:54.720 --> 01:08:56.100
by you being picky.

1437
01:08:56.159 --> 01:08:57.960
It is absolutely perfect.

1438
01:08:58.020 --> 01:09:02.880
I thought my fan cards would be revoked. real time when you're

1439
01:09:02.880 --> 01:09:04.619
assembling your thoughts, they're about to come around your mouth

1440
01:09:04.619 --> 01:09:07.800
and I almost said an unearthly child and defaulted to 100,000 BC

1441
01:09:07.800 --> 01:09:10.140
and had the thoughts at the same time as I was speaking, Simon

1442
01:09:10.140 --> 01:09:11.340
won't like.

1443
01:09:11.399 --> 01:09:14.760
Go save it Vash. of course, because time in the mark of the Rani.

1444
01:09:14.819 --> 01:09:17.220
I mean, she's a, what, 40-something year old woman?

1445
01:09:17.220 --> 01:09:17.520
Oh, there.

1446
01:09:17.520 --> 01:09:18.420
He's a toy boy.

1447
01:09:18.479 --> 01:09:19.979
He's 18 years her junior.

1448
01:09:19.979 --> 01:09:21.659
And just fun fact.

1449
01:09:21.720 --> 01:09:23.880
That's quite a hot...

1450
01:09:23.939 --> 01:09:24.539
Well, yes.

1451
01:09:24.600 --> 01:09:26.100
Oh, yeah, absolutely.

1452
01:09:26.159 --> 01:09:30.840
But also the fact that he also married Kira from Full Circle.

1453
01:09:30.899 --> 01:09:32.579
Oh, yeah, yeah.

1454
01:09:32.579 --> 01:09:34.920
He's on set with his future with his future wife there.

1455
01:09:34.979 --> 01:09:37.560
Practically everybody else in that gang of gay.

1456
01:09:37.560 --> 01:09:40.079
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1457
01:09:40.140 --> 01:09:40.619
Thai lost.

1458
01:09:40.680 --> 01:09:42.420
I don't trust her.

1459
01:09:44.640 --> 01:09:48.300
Do you think it was interesting today that we had that flashback

1460
01:09:48.300 --> 01:09:54.300
to John Pertuy with the Daleks and the floating heads of Trouton

1461
01:09:54.300 --> 01:09:58.199
and heart and all the pictures and then you having dimensions in

1462
01:09:58.199 --> 01:10:04.079
time, the floating heads of Trouton and Hartnell.

1463
01:10:04.140 --> 01:10:05.939
So Russell does.

1464
01:10:06.000 --> 01:10:10.619
So obviously in last in last week's episode in Wishworld, we

1465
01:10:10.619 --> 01:10:14.819
actually get 3 flashbacks to Cato Mara as the Rani, including one

1466
01:10:14.819 --> 01:10:17.460
from Dimensions in Time.

1467
01:10:17.520 --> 01:10:19.859
And Russell did this thing.

1468
01:10:19.920 --> 01:10:21.600
He did a post about the Rani.

1469
01:10:21.659 --> 01:10:28.739
And I think he actually mentions that as one of the kind of, you

1470
01:10:28.739 --> 01:10:32.640
know, like one of the adventures that the Rani is in, which is

1471
01:10:32.640 --> 01:10:33.300
absolutely it.

1472
01:10:33.359 --> 01:10:34.140
Do you know what I mean?

1473
01:10:34.260 --> 01:10:36.239
Like, he doesn't care anything about Canon because it was on

1474
01:10:36.239 --> 01:10:36.659
television.

1475
01:10:36.720 --> 01:10:38.100
It happened.

1476
01:10:38.819 --> 01:10:43.800
And, you know, like he talks about her being in disguise and all

1477
01:10:43.800 --> 01:10:44.699
of that sort of thing.

1478
01:10:44.760 --> 01:10:49.619
And how, and he even kind of teases the fact that he wouldn't put

1479
01:10:49.619 --> 01:10:54.479
us through that two-part story without giving us the Rani and Mel

1480
01:10:54.479 --> 01:10:55.920
meeting for the 1st time.

1481
01:10:55.979 --> 01:10:57.899
And that was so great.

1482
01:10:57.960 --> 01:10:59.100
Don't you think?

1483
01:10:59.159 --> 01:11:01.920
Like that thing where she says, I haven't thought about...

1484
01:11:02.640 --> 01:11:05.220
And I thought you were a painted princess who wouldn't have

1485
01:11:05.220 --> 01:11:07.800
survived or whatever, like, like all of that stuff was just

1486
01:11:07.800 --> 01:11:08.939
terrifically great, I think.

1487
01:11:09.000 --> 01:11:11.279
Oh, it was quiet.

1488
01:11:11.340 --> 01:11:12.119
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1489
01:11:12.180 --> 01:11:16.920
Oh, no, we would have been justly quite furious. one of the many

1490
01:11:16.920 --> 01:11:20.039
fabulous things about the Rani, which is true of great dog 2

1491
01:11:20.039 --> 01:11:22.619
villains, is that she has an independently adversarial

1492
01:11:22.619 --> 01:11:23.939
relationship with the companion.

1493
01:11:24.000 --> 01:11:27.720
Yeah, not just Mel, but also Perry and Mark and Randy. you know

1494
01:11:27.720 --> 01:11:28.680
the 1st time she sees her.

1495
01:11:28.739 --> 01:11:29.760
Who's this brat?

1496
01:11:29.819 --> 01:11:33.239
Yeah, but that's, but that's, that's the way the mark.

1497
01:11:33.300 --> 01:11:36.600
I mean the master's always at his best when he has a independent

1498
01:11:36.600 --> 01:11:39.600
relationship with the companion, which Missy, which Missy has with

1499
01:11:39.600 --> 01:11:40.380
Clara, right?

1500
01:11:40.560 --> 01:11:43.920
Miss Grant, I've come to take away from all this.

1501
01:11:43.979 --> 01:11:44.460
Exactly.

1502
01:11:44.520 --> 01:11:46.319
Thank you, Miss Grant.

1503
01:11:46.380 --> 01:11:47.579
I'll let you know.

1504
01:11:47.579 --> 01:11:52.859
It's Delgado's best line in the role.

1505
01:11:52.979 --> 01:11:58.260
And, you know, the moment where Missy pushes Clara down the hole

1506
01:11:58.260 --> 01:12:01.020
in order to test how deep it is, yes, exactly.

1507
01:12:01.020 --> 01:12:02.159
Acting as an audience.

1508
01:12:02.220 --> 01:12:04.079
Oh my god. so good.

1509
01:12:04.140 --> 01:12:04.979
So good.

1510
01:12:05.039 --> 01:12:06.659
I think we're done.