WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-05-03 at 08:43:53

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to 500 year diary.

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The only Doctor Who podcast that can still remember having tariff

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free access to the alms markets of the warlords of Thorden.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Kate.

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I'm Peter, and I'm Simon.

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It's the 4th of October, 1986.

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There's been a whole 18 month hiatus since the doctor was on the

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planet Varos, throwing a couple of cutting quips in Sill's

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direction, and tonight, 4.800000 people have tuned in to watch The

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Trial of a Time Lord, part five, possibly hoping to see that

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happen again.

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But can still work as a villain in a completely different set of

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space corridors?

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Let's find out as we discuss Mind Warp.

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All right, so we're here in trial of a time law.

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Right in the middle.

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Right in the middle of trial of a time, Lord.

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How are we feeling about it so far?

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Disappointed.

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I was so, oh, goodness me.

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I was loving season 22 and the tone of the show and the way it was

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being made and for some reason during the hiatus, they completely

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forgot how to make Doctor Who.

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I liked it at the time because I needed to like it at the time.

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But seasons 23 and 24 are basically for me, one of the deers of

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the show, I'm afraid.

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Yeah, I'll have to agree with that.

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I think this was an important season in my fan evolution, not this

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story, which I'm really quite fond of, but the season as a whole

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was the 1st time as a 14 year old, I realised the Doctor Who was

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not as good as it used to be.

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And it was a frightening feeling.

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I remember mostly being puzzled by it.

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I kind of knew what season 22 was like because by that point the

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VCR had been invented and so I watched season 22 to death.

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And then season 23 came along and I was sort of watching it, now

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kind of enjoying it, and I'm kind of sharing the doctor on, but

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you know, I would rewatch an episode and I would think, what's

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wrong?

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What's missing?

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I don't understand because I'm too young.

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That thing of like coming home from school or university or

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whatever and, you know, frantically rewatching Attack of the

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Cyberman part one, 5 or 6 times. part of that could be explained

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by the fact that we were a year older, but I don't think so.

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There was something missing from the series.

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See, I had the opposite experience and I'm slightly older than you

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and I wonder whether there's something developmental happening

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here.

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Well, you're the same age as Kate.

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Well, that's true.

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That is true.

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So for me, season 22 was the moment where I think I started to see

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through Doctor Who.

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And for me, season 22 is a series of episodes set in various space

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corridors all over the place, in which unpleasant things happen

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and there's a lot of running around and getting captured and

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escaping and that kind of thing.

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Yeah, hear, hear.

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And for me, what I felt was that we found a new type of space

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corridor for each story.

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But we never really kind of developed a story in any kind of

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different way.

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So we would just find new settings for the doctor to do quips and

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for capturing and escaping to happen.

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And on some level, Doctor Who has always been like that, and maybe

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22 happens to coincide with the moment where I kind of

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realised...

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Had an awakening.

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But I do have to say that there are things about season 22 that I

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really, really seriously dislike, and that I think that despite

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the fact that I like season 23 a lot better, and I'm not claiming

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it's good or that it's coherent, any of those things.

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That's okay.

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We can still be free.

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But I think Mind Warp is where it reaches its Nadir.

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And I think that a lot of it has to do with Perry. and it's not

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Nicola, and it's not the character of Perry, but it's the

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treatment of Perry.

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Yes. which I just think is the worst stain on 80s Doctor Who.

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And during the Hinchcliffe era, we talked a little bit on flight

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through entirety about how Sarah Jane stops being a credible

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character, because she's constantly having these terrible things

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happen to her, and yet she hops in the TARDIS at the end of Terror

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of the Zycons rather than kind of running a mile.

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And what happens to Perry, is that not only is she mistreated, but

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she's sexualised in a way that really hadn't happened since the

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60s and certainly had never happened to the degree that it happens

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with Perry.

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And so mind warp opens with a scene in which the actual mind warp

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not the not the trial.

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But a scene in which, uh, Perry and the doctor talk about the

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handsy warlord of Thornton, who sent the dirty warlord.

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Yeah.

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And like that's a funny throwaway line, except that that's what

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happens to her all the time.

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And that she's constantly being leered at and physically

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manhandled by man.

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And this is the point where her body is taken over and taken off

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her and she's experimented on it, mistreated.

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And I just think it's awful.

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I'm going to say that I do agree with you on an intellectual level

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and yet that's not the takeaway I had as child, not the takeaway I

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have now.

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Episode 8 or part four, whichever way you want to look at it, is

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clearly the most important part of this story.

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And I remember the way that I felt when I watched it.

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I think maybe Simon and I watched Doctor Who in a slightly

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different way because of our reactions to season 22 and how

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positively we reacted to it.

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Episode 8 puts me back in mind of season 22.

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It's really unsettling and a bit brutal.

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And the fact that, you know, Perry Nicola Bryant is one of the

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most generically attractive Doctor Who companions, like, you know

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you would sort of put her on screen and people would agree that's

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a beautiful woman.

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So the fact that they shave her head to make her into this

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creature at the end, I found so confronting and so dramatic that

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it still works for me now.

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I get a thrill when I watch it and I don't feel any of that kind

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of dispossession that you're talking about.

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So let me just say that I think that that final episode is as

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terrifying as Doctor Who has ever been, and the only thing that I

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can compare it to, I think, is Dark Water, where I spent the

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entire episode just with this feeling of incredible dread.

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We've talked before about when a story feels like a regeneration

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story because things are careening out of control and you're

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thinking, hang on, it's reached the 3 quarter mark of episode 4

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and things aren't being resolved.

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In this story, you have the doctor for the one and only time maybe

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apart from turn left, which examines it, of you remove the hero

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from the action.

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This is what happened.

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He goes to hell.

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The thing that you mention about shaving Perry's head is the

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moment that you know the doctor's not going to save her.

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Like, you're, he's already asked, where's Perry, hasn't he, in

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episode one of Trial of a Time Lord, and we don't know where Perry

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is.

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And we don't know exactly when he was taken out of time.

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That's right.

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Because we're never going to have Nicola Bride in a bald wig

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playing Perry and the doctor rescuing her.

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The moment that Matrona Carly starts cutting her hair, either the

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doctor has to turn up immediately and put a stop to it.

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Or we already know by then that she's done for.

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And all of those delays, even just scenes of colony and corridors

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with people getting in his way.

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Yeah.

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Do you know what I mean?

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Oh, unquestionably. and echoing what you said, Peter, about

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episode 4 is a bit of season 22, which has been dropped into

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season 23, and that's the one, the foreboding music.

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It is that terrible sense of foreboding.

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And I think that's the episode, the only episode of the story

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which properly works and then I enjoy.

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I think the rest of it is basically the worst parts of the trial.

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And it's the only episode of the season that has that dramatic

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weight. kind of anodyne, lightweight, jokey, everything that I

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don't really want from Doctor.

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With the treatment of Perry, though.

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I think we're forgetting what the mid-80s was like to attractive

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women.

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The only thing they can be is a sex symbol, whether it's the

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hostesses on game shows to spinning around things for the for the

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guy in a suit because someone's chosen the letter N or whether

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it's other people.

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Basically, they are sexualised in a way.

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It is all it is doing.

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I'm not saying it's right. saying all it's doing is exactly what's

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happening at the time.

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In all those American shows too.

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But you've got Sigourney Weaver and Linda Hamilton.

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There are other ways of being a woman that are available.

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You've got Tegan.

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Tegan is not being pulled by aliens.

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No, it's actually wonderful, isn't it?

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And she's obnoxious and she's difficult and all of those things

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and she's never, ever once sexualised.

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Yeah, but so we'd had that character and now they're doing a

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different character.

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So that's what you do.

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It's not just another Tegan that's been put in.

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No, no.

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I don't think we need another Tegan, but I do think that Doctor

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Who has, like it's always, you know, had obviously sort of

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problematic things with its representation of women, but I think

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here it falls down a hole where it's worse than it used to be.

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It regresses.

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And I think it's a proper problem.

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And I think it's really, really deeply unpleasant and it stops at

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this and doesn't come back. disagree with you.

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I think it's probably a symptom of the kind of nihilist world that

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Eric Seywood occupies and the stories that he wants to deliver

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that bad things will happen to the doctor and his companion in a

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variety of ways, and Perry happens to be in the middle of that.

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One of the things I do like is that Perry, I don't think, ever

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really loses her agency.

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She's always forthright and fighting back.

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She never just becomes a victim.

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She's never just tied to a railway track, except in time lash.

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Colin gets tied to a right way.

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Exactly.

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Even then, the train came off worse.

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But because it's bad sex things that happen to Perry is the

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problem.

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Do you know what I mean?

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It's not the peril.

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It's not like she gets blinded or pushed down the stairs like

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happens to Sarah and Brain of Morbius.

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It is specifically around people leering at her and pawing at her

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and stuff in a way that.

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You have to physically fight Joe Bell off.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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And, you know, even the goddamn Borad has the hots for us.

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Even Sill, in vengeance on Varos, is like when she's changing, you

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say, oh, she's almost attractive now, or as a pet.

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Yes, someone is obsessed with her appearance.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Yeah.

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Like, I think that that's unpleasant, and I can't kind of, like, I

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don't know how much of my dislike of this era stems from, that.

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I think definitely now.

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I doubt when I was a kid.

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It loomed very large in my consciousness and I think what I was

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worried about was just the usual genre staff.

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But because she is basically the most beautiful companion we've

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ever had before or since. don't think that's true.

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Or it's not in any way an objective thing.

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Yeah, it's not a clearly...

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Barbara, aren't you?

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I am thinking of Barbara.

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Look, but she is an incredibly beautiful woman.

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It's not surprising that the writing goes in this direction.

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And also the fact that that didn't, it didn't bother me then and

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it doesn't bother me now because the fact that an incredibly

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attractive woman is being poured at by villains.

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People we are supposed to despise.

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Is that sending a bad message?

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Because we're not saying it's okay for Perry.

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No.

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No, no.

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But I think what we're saying is that it's entertaining to watch

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Perry being poor.

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No, it's supposed to be crying.

248
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It supposed to be awful.

249
00:12:50.700 --> 00:12:55.620
If it didn't happen quite so often, then you could look at it that

250
00:12:55.620 --> 00:12:58.259
way, I think, but it's this absolute consistent.

251
00:12:58.679 --> 00:13:03.419
It's in story after story that Perry is pursued.

252
00:13:03.480 --> 00:13:05.519
It would be like if guest characters were falling in love with

253
00:13:05.519 --> 00:13:06.419
Tegan constantly.

254
00:13:06.480 --> 00:13:07.799
You'd be like, what's going on here?

255
00:13:07.860 --> 00:13:09.419
But when it happens in enlightenment.

256
00:13:09.480 --> 00:13:11.340
It's a fascinating subport.

257
00:13:11.399 --> 00:13:11.580
Yeah.

258
00:13:11.580 --> 00:13:11.879
Yeah.

259
00:13:11.940 --> 00:13:12.539
Yes.

260
00:13:12.600 --> 00:13:16.139
I think it's a, they just go back to it too often, and I think

261
00:13:16.139 --> 00:13:19.799
it's become an obsession that say what has for some reason, and I

262
00:13:19.799 --> 00:13:22.620
think there's a real genuine nastiness to it.

263
00:13:22.679 --> 00:13:26.279
And so while I think that that final episode that episode 8 is an

264
00:13:26.279 --> 00:13:30.059
amazing, you know, like amazingly paced, amazingly told, really

265
00:13:30.059 --> 00:13:31.019
quite terrifying.

266
00:13:31.080 --> 00:13:34.379
I think it's really kind of horrible.

267
00:13:34.440 --> 00:13:38.940
Like, I think it's got a great scene with Brian Blessed and her.

268
00:13:39.059 --> 00:13:40.440
It's one of the few good brands.

269
00:13:40.440 --> 00:13:43.019
A really, really good scene.

270
00:13:43.080 --> 00:13:46.080
Oh, I really like when he comes off the doorfers died.

271
00:13:46.320 --> 00:13:49.080
I think that's a really, I actually...

272
00:13:49.919 --> 00:13:50.820
We can cherry pick.

273
00:13:50.879 --> 00:13:53.580
Yeah, yeah. cherry pick one or 2 moments when he's not shouting

274
00:13:53.580 --> 00:13:55.259
from the ceiling. actually quite good.

275
00:13:55.320 --> 00:13:55.799
Yeah.

276
00:13:55.799 --> 00:13:56.820
Way too much.

277
00:13:56.879 --> 00:14:00.600
A problem for the story is that it's building inexorably to this

278
00:14:00.600 --> 00:14:05.159
horrendous climax, which is going to shock the heck out of all of

279
00:14:05.159 --> 00:14:07.259
us. you know, I remember my jaw hanging open.

280
00:14:07.320 --> 00:14:12.600
But a lot of the story is being played as a parody, as a comedy, by

281
00:14:12.600 --> 00:14:15.419
the people who are in it, and it's not necessarily written as

282
00:14:15.419 --> 00:14:17.399
humorously as they are playing it.

283
00:14:17.460 --> 00:14:20.940
But Crozier seems to think he's in the rocky horror picture show.

284
00:14:20.940 --> 00:14:22.799
And Ryan Brassett is playing.

285
00:14:22.860 --> 00:14:24.059
Right, bless it.

286
00:14:24.059 --> 00:14:27.120
Well, he's playing Voltan, whatever his name is from Flash

287
00:14:27.120 --> 00:14:27.659
Gordon.

288
00:14:27.720 --> 00:14:30.539
You know, he's playing what's written on the page, basically.

289
00:14:30.600 --> 00:14:33.120
And he does more than just shout.

290
00:14:33.179 --> 00:14:36.659
He does those lovely moments, but you've got this problem where a

291
00:14:36.659 --> 00:14:39.779
lot of the cast just seem to be in a different production that is

292
00:14:39.779 --> 00:14:42.059
not a horror story, but to joke.

293
00:14:42.120 --> 00:14:44.519
And the doctor is not immune to that.

294
00:14:44.580 --> 00:14:47.519
Like the dreadful business after he's been zapped in his brain.

295
00:14:47.519 --> 00:14:49.500
And he comes out and he's just a clown.

296
00:14:49.559 --> 00:14:52.799
He's just ridiculous and I hate it when anybody does that to the

297
00:14:52.799 --> 00:14:55.139
doctor and they make him look like just a jackass.

298
00:14:55.200 --> 00:14:58.139
And then worse, he turns into a complete asshole.

299
00:14:58.200 --> 00:15:01.860
And again, I hate it when people do that with the doctor, and of

300
00:15:01.860 --> 00:15:02.879
course, it's never resolved.

301
00:15:02.940 --> 00:15:04.080
Was it a clever ploy?

302
00:15:04.139 --> 00:15:05.580
Was he affected by the brain machine?

303
00:15:05.639 --> 00:15:06.899
Is it a matrix?

304
00:15:07.320 --> 00:15:08.279
We don't, we don't know.

305
00:15:08.340 --> 00:15:09.240
He just a toll.

306
00:15:09.299 --> 00:15:11.940
They needed to have a tone meeting or something to decide, okay

307
00:15:11.940 --> 00:15:16.379
look, are we doing a parody Frankenstein story here with a warlord

308
00:15:16.379 --> 00:15:20.700
in it, or are we doing a serious story about brain alteration

309
00:15:20.700 --> 00:15:22.919
which is going to end up with this terrible climax?

310
00:15:22.980 --> 00:15:26.399
I mean, they've done stories in Dog 2 before, which start off with

311
00:15:26.399 --> 00:15:27.240
a different tone then.

312
00:15:27.240 --> 00:15:29.879
So I'm thinking of the myth makers, which is a comedy for 3

313
00:15:29.879 --> 00:15:32.940
quarters of its run, and then becomes high drama for its last

314
00:15:32.940 --> 00:15:33.419
episode.

315
00:15:33.539 --> 00:15:35.039
Well, you know, I say high drama.

316
00:15:35.820 --> 00:15:38.279
Mind warp is like that, I think.

317
00:15:38.340 --> 00:15:39.480
And I still call it mind warp.

318
00:15:39.539 --> 00:15:40.259
Trial of Time.

319
00:15:40.320 --> 00:15:41.700
But for that.

320
00:15:41.700 --> 00:15:44.940
Series 7B. It might even be Planet of Silver.

321
00:15:45.840 --> 00:15:48.120
For 3 quarters, it's run.

322
00:15:48.179 --> 00:15:51.419
It's a black comedy and really quite an effective one.

323
00:15:51.419 --> 00:15:55.500
And then it pitches over into its last episode, the comedy gets

324
00:15:55.500 --> 00:15:57.600
stripped away and it's just dark.

325
00:15:57.659 --> 00:15:58.980
I'm fine with that.

326
00:15:59.039 --> 00:16:00.059
I'm on board with that.

327
00:16:00.120 --> 00:16:04.679
In fact, one of the best gags, I think, is the moment that Sill

328
00:16:04.679 --> 00:16:10.679
looks at the new Kiev in Perry's body and says, if only we could

329
00:16:10.679 --> 00:16:15.179
have found a more attractive one, which is not a great joke, but

330
00:16:15.179 --> 00:16:19.379
the fact that we're doing a joke at that moment. you know, and

331
00:16:19.379 --> 00:16:19.679
that's.

332
00:16:20.039 --> 00:16:20.759
But isn't it great as well?

333
00:16:20.759 --> 00:16:22.860
Because it's silent apart from his life, which is one of the very

334
00:16:22.860 --> 00:16:24.659
few moments of silence before or since.

335
00:16:35.220 --> 00:16:40.500
What are we doing with making the doctor into an unlikeable

336
00:16:40.500 --> 00:16:45.419
unsympathetic villain for half of the story, when we have the

337
00:16:45.419 --> 00:16:50.100
experience of the twin dilemma, and how badly that went down with

338
00:16:50.100 --> 00:16:54.360
a big chunk of fandom, and it may be one of the turning points in

339
00:16:54.360 --> 00:16:57.840
the public consciousness of the show, maybe.

340
00:16:57.899 --> 00:16:59.519
Why are we doing that again?

341
00:16:59.519 --> 00:17:04.259
When the show is under scrutiny by the public, by the BBC bosses

342
00:17:04.259 --> 00:17:05.519
why are we going there?

343
00:17:05.579 --> 00:17:07.259
The answer is we shouldn't be.

344
00:17:07.319 --> 00:17:10.319
The doctor should be the doctor throughout the season.

345
00:17:10.380 --> 00:17:14.640
But if we are going to go there, We have to work out why we're

346
00:17:14.640 --> 00:17:16.859
going there and what we're going to do.

347
00:17:16.920 --> 00:17:18.599
And as you said, it's not worked out.

348
00:17:18.660 --> 00:17:22.859
We don't know if the doctor is being manipulated by the Matrix, if

349
00:17:22.859 --> 00:17:23.819
it was the brain pulse.

350
00:17:23.880 --> 00:17:26.700
I thought that weird brain transference pulse had made you crazy.

351
00:17:26.759 --> 00:17:30.240
I mean, I actually said this in the flight through entirety

352
00:17:30.240 --> 00:17:30.660
episode.

353
00:17:30.720 --> 00:17:33.359
I think it's clear what the script wants to be happening

354
00:17:33.420 --> 00:17:34.200
afterwards, yes.

355
00:17:34.259 --> 00:17:35.220
Yeah, it's Matrix.

356
00:17:35.279 --> 00:17:35.940
Yes, that's right.

357
00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:39.480
And I think there's the bit that Kate objected to, which is the

358
00:17:39.480 --> 00:17:44.220
immediate consequence of the brain pulse, but then after that we

359
00:17:44.220 --> 00:17:46.859
see the doctor much as he is, although the doctor complains that

360
00:17:46.859 --> 00:17:49.619
the emphasis is slightly wrong and that's kind of fine.

361
00:17:49.680 --> 00:17:54.299
And then I think that the moment where the Matrix is tampered with

362
00:17:54.299 --> 00:17:58.859
is that, again, that horrific scene where they chain Nicola to

363
00:17:58.859 --> 00:17:59.460
rocks.

364
00:17:59.519 --> 00:18:04.380
They really chain her to rocks and the tide is coming in and she's

365
00:18:04.380 --> 00:18:09.180
anxious about the battery pack on her microphone giving her a

366
00:18:09.180 --> 00:18:09.599
shock.

367
00:18:09.660 --> 00:18:13.500
And we try to get the scene as quickly as possible.

368
00:18:13.559 --> 00:18:16.200
She's really, really unhappy about it.

369
00:18:16.200 --> 00:18:18.299
And you've got Colin torturing her.

370
00:18:18.359 --> 00:18:22.680
And there's one moment where he says, oh, look, we can talk and

371
00:18:22.680 --> 00:18:26.160
then he says, tell me the names of your conspirators and stuff.

372
00:18:26.220 --> 00:18:30.059
And that's the bit, which is the moment where that scene turns

373
00:18:30.059 --> 00:18:33.779
because it turns it's like, oh, all right, it's our Dr. Pack.

374
00:18:33.839 --> 00:18:35.940
Everything's fine, and then it turns out he's not, and that's the

375
00:18:35.940 --> 00:18:37.380
Matrix being interviewed with.

376
00:18:37.440 --> 00:18:40.140
The problem with this is there's 2 problems, I think.

377
00:18:40.200 --> 00:18:44.519
One is that it's an uncomfortable spilling over of the production

378
00:18:44.519 --> 00:18:46.680
mayhem into what we get on screen.

379
00:18:46.740 --> 00:18:50.759
We should have had a clear idea. people involved should have had a

380
00:18:50.759 --> 00:18:53.220
clear idea of what was here and why they're playing.

381
00:18:53.279 --> 00:18:54.420
Colin doesn't have any idea.

382
00:18:54.480 --> 00:18:56.940
And so it leans into his worst impulses.

383
00:18:57.000 --> 00:18:58.500
He just goes over the top.

384
00:18:58.559 --> 00:19:01.319
I don't think it helps that he's got Brian Blessed in the scenes

385
00:19:01.319 --> 00:19:04.440
with him and he's trying to match that height and that energy.

386
00:19:04.500 --> 00:19:08.519
But also, I don't know why it probably goes back to what you were

387
00:19:08.519 --> 00:19:08.819
saying.

388
00:19:08.880 --> 00:19:12.779
But the 6th doctor in particular, who I really like a lot more

389
00:19:12.779 --> 00:19:17.220
than some other people do, leans into misogyny when he becomes

390
00:19:17.220 --> 00:19:17.940
that character.

391
00:19:18.000 --> 00:19:20.759
And so he's always talking about, why would I listen to this?

392
00:19:20.759 --> 00:19:22.140
and a stupid girl.

393
00:19:22.200 --> 00:19:23.460
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

394
00:19:23.700 --> 00:19:25.140
It's Liberty Gibbet. hopeless.

395
00:19:25.200 --> 00:19:30.059
Yes, all that. and he's pushing Perry along the corridors when

396
00:19:30.059 --> 00:19:32.819
they come back from the scene at the rocks and all of that.

397
00:19:32.880 --> 00:19:34.740
And that makes me slightly uncomfortable.

398
00:19:34.799 --> 00:19:37.859
I think if they'd been clarity in the production of what was

399
00:19:37.859 --> 00:19:40.079
happening, Colin would have had more to have latched onto.

400
00:19:40.140 --> 00:19:43.440
Yeah, I was thinking about that because everyone says that Colin

401
00:19:43.440 --> 00:19:46.799
asked the writer and they said, oh, ask the script editor and then

402
00:19:46.799 --> 00:19:47.880
ask the director and nobody knew.

403
00:19:47.940 --> 00:19:51.359
Apparently he couldn't speak to Philip Martin because why would he

404
00:19:51.359 --> 00:19:52.920
be able to read Philip Martin?

405
00:19:52.980 --> 00:19:53.880
That's right.

406
00:19:53.940 --> 00:19:58.619
And so he asks the director and he asks say word and say would say

407
00:19:58.619 --> 00:19:59.519
speak to Philip Martin.

408
00:19:59.579 --> 00:20:00.720
He goes, well, I can't do that.

409
00:20:00.779 --> 00:20:02.099
We're done.

410
00:20:02.160 --> 00:20:04.559
But I mean, you know, I think I, again, I made this point.

411
00:20:04.619 --> 00:20:06.900
It's Eric Sayward's job tonight.

412
00:20:06.960 --> 00:20:09.960
It's a director's job to decide, even if the director has not

413
00:20:09.960 --> 00:20:12.960
received any input from the writer or the script editor or the

414
00:20:12.960 --> 00:20:15.480
producer, it's the director's job to go through the script with a

415
00:20:15.480 --> 00:20:18.119
highlighter and go, okay, this is this, this is that.

416
00:20:18.240 --> 00:20:20.039
What do we have 10 days of rehearsal?

417
00:20:20.339 --> 00:20:23.339
on Monday going, okay, we've got these scenes.

418
00:20:23.400 --> 00:20:24.720
How are we playing this?

419
00:20:24.839 --> 00:20:25.619
How are we doing this?

420
00:20:25.680 --> 00:20:27.240
And I think that's what you're saying.

421
00:20:27.299 --> 00:20:31.799
Having said that, I wonder if they'd have worked out what was what

422
00:20:31.799 --> 00:20:36.119
it would have actually been even Hamier because it would have had

423
00:20:36.119 --> 00:20:40.019
it would have had that terrible thing of actors pretending they're

424
00:20:40.019 --> 00:20:43.019
acting within the story, which always looks embarrassing.

425
00:20:43.079 --> 00:20:44.579
Do you know what I mean?

426
00:20:44.640 --> 00:20:46.619
So maybe we've just maybe we have to be thankful for small

427
00:20:46.619 --> 00:20:47.220
mercies.

428
00:20:47.279 --> 00:20:50.759
And also, the other thing is, I don't necessarily mind the fact

429
00:20:50.759 --> 00:20:54.359
that even to this day, we don't really know, because we all have a

430
00:20:54.359 --> 00:20:57.359
different idea, and every time you watch it, you go, because I

431
00:20:57.359 --> 00:20:58.740
don't think it needs to be a bounce.

432
00:20:58.740 --> 00:21:01.440
And this is maybe what Philip Martin might have actually said, had

433
00:21:01.440 --> 00:21:04.200
he been contacted, is maybe he would have said, you're never

434
00:21:04.200 --> 00:21:07.259
actually supposed to know, you shouldn't know what he's real and

435
00:21:07.259 --> 00:21:09.660
what's the matrix, and what might have been the doctor just being

436
00:21:09.660 --> 00:21:11.160
if I'm not by the brain thing.

437
00:21:11.220 --> 00:21:12.539
I absolutely don't mind that.

438
00:21:12.660 --> 00:21:15.359
I just think it's indicative of the mayhem of the series.

439
00:21:15.480 --> 00:21:16.980
It's an indictment of that.

440
00:21:17.039 --> 00:21:20.400
In fact, it's the 1st time that the doctor's experiences stop

441
00:21:20.400 --> 00:21:22.259
being what we see on screen.

442
00:21:22.319 --> 00:21:25.859
This is the 1st time that we have a thoroughly unreliable narrator

443
00:21:25.859 --> 00:21:30.599
where we as the audience can't trust that what we're seeing is

444
00:21:30.599 --> 00:21:32.940
what really happened, right?

445
00:21:33.000 --> 00:21:38.880
And that's kind of interesting, I think, and inadvertent.

446
00:21:38.940 --> 00:21:42.960
And we never really go anywhere with it, but I think it is a

447
00:21:42.960 --> 00:21:43.200
thing.

448
00:21:43.259 --> 00:21:46.559
Whereas, you know, modern Doctor Who, we very frequently see

449
00:21:46.559 --> 00:21:49.500
things told in a particular way or from a person's point of view

450
00:21:49.500 --> 00:21:53.339
or things are not meant to be naturalistic or things happen.

451
00:21:53.400 --> 00:21:54.839
But this is the 1st time it happens.

452
00:21:54.900 --> 00:21:55.619
Yeah exactly.

453
00:21:55.740 --> 00:21:59.039
See, a lot of people's problems, the people who don't like mind

454
00:21:59.039 --> 00:22:02.279
warp, and they are numerous, but it's usually about this issue

455
00:22:02.279 --> 00:22:05.220
about, oh, which is the matrix and which is the...

456
00:22:05.220 --> 00:22:06.900
I don't...

457
00:22:06.900 --> 00:22:07.259
Exactly.

458
00:22:07.319 --> 00:22:08.339
I don't care.

459
00:22:08.400 --> 00:22:10.920
I'm happy for the bizarre ambiguity, right?

460
00:22:10.980 --> 00:22:15.420
It's almost everything else apart from episode 4 that I think is

461
00:22:15.420 --> 00:22:16.380
wrong with the story.

462
00:22:16.440 --> 00:22:17.400
Do you know what I mean?

463
00:22:17.460 --> 00:22:21.960
Like, like, I think there are so many bad things about it from the

464
00:22:21.960 --> 00:22:25.500
way the production is made from, to the way it's performed, all of

465
00:22:25.500 --> 00:22:28.380
these things, and we can go through them one by one if you.

466
00:22:28.440 --> 00:22:31.259
Well, itemise them for us, Simon.

467
00:22:34.619 --> 00:22:39.900
I mean, let's talk a little bit about the predecessor of the story

468
00:22:39.900 --> 00:22:43.859
Vengeance on Varus, which is where we 1st meet still.

469
00:22:43.920 --> 00:22:45.960
And it's very highly regarded.

470
00:22:46.019 --> 00:22:50.220
I think a lot of people think it's the best story of that season

471
00:22:50.220 --> 00:22:52.500
or the era.

472
00:22:52.559 --> 00:22:57.660
And I think it does some pretty amazing things with, you know, the

473
00:22:57.660 --> 00:22:59.460
way it's told and all of that sort of thing.

474
00:22:59.519 --> 00:23:03.240
But I think it's the story at which I just went. actually I'm done

475
00:23:03.240 --> 00:23:03.539
here.

476
00:23:03.599 --> 00:23:06.539
And I don't like it at all.

477
00:23:06.599 --> 00:23:11.039
And I think it's, it's not as good as this.

478
00:23:11.160 --> 00:23:15.480
And I think part of the reason is that the baddies are just

479
00:23:15.480 --> 00:23:18.779
horrifically woefully generic and uninteresting.

480
00:23:18.839 --> 00:23:20.700
Inventions of virus.

481
00:23:20.759 --> 00:23:22.259
Yeah, like silly.

482
00:23:22.319 --> 00:23:24.839
Chief and Quillum are terrible.

483
00:23:24.900 --> 00:23:31.319
Quillem is, you know, like a, like just, oh, he wears a mask.

484
00:23:31.380 --> 00:23:33.779
He's poundland Shara's jerk.

485
00:23:33.900 --> 00:23:36.180
You know, like here.

486
00:23:37.140 --> 00:23:38.759
That's right.

487
00:23:38.819 --> 00:23:39.960
He's terrible.

488
00:23:40.019 --> 00:23:42.299
And even...

489
00:23:42.359 --> 00:23:44.160
Terribly gorgeous greys.

490
00:23:44.220 --> 00:23:47.160
But but slimy performance is wonderful.

491
00:23:47.220 --> 00:23:52.680
The thing is, it's a show about how terrible Doctor Who is.

492
00:23:52.740 --> 00:23:56.940
Like at Philip Martin sees Doctor Who as a thing where people are

493
00:23:56.940 --> 00:24:02.220
just going through space corridors, confronted by random things

494
00:24:02.220 --> 00:24:05.099
that they solve in random ways. special effects.

495
00:24:05.160 --> 00:24:06.539
Do you know what I mean?

496
00:24:06.599 --> 00:24:08.460
Like with the fly, it's all right.

497
00:24:08.519 --> 00:24:11.220
We'll just pretend it's an illusion, so it won't affect us.

498
00:24:11.279 --> 00:24:14.579
The sand, however, that's an illusion, but it will affect us.

499
00:24:14.640 --> 00:24:16.440
Who could predict which thing would happen?

500
00:24:16.920 --> 00:24:18.900
And it's exciting.

501
00:24:18.960 --> 00:24:20.819
Do you know what, Wayne's this not wonderful?

502
00:24:20.880 --> 00:24:21.660
Exactly.

503
00:24:21.720 --> 00:24:22.740
I don't understand.

504
00:24:22.799 --> 00:24:27.539
Because, basically, it's a satire of Doctor Who that basically

505
00:24:27.539 --> 00:24:29.339
says that Doctor Who is bad.

506
00:24:29.400 --> 00:24:32.460
And that's one way of dealing with the fact that Doctor Who is

507
00:24:32.460 --> 00:24:32.700
bad.

508
00:24:32.759 --> 00:24:35.700
But another way would be making it good.

509
00:24:35.759 --> 00:24:36.599
Okay.

510
00:24:36.599 --> 00:24:41.460
I, I, I don't accept the premise of my, by the way.

511
00:24:41.460 --> 00:24:42.539
And I'll explain why.

512
00:24:42.599 --> 00:24:44.640
I think, I think, I mean, it's a great...

513
00:24:44.700 --> 00:24:46.859
I think what you've come up with there is a wonderful meta reading

514
00:24:46.859 --> 00:24:47.279
of it.

515
00:24:47.339 --> 00:24:49.980
But I think that's what it's doing, isn't it?

516
00:24:50.039 --> 00:24:52.619
Like, no, that's how the cliffhanger works.

517
00:24:52.740 --> 00:24:56.039
Like the real cliffhanger and the meta cliffhanger are the same

518
00:24:56.039 --> 00:24:58.619
and the fact that the doctor's yes and cut it now and all that

519
00:24:58.619 --> 00:24:58.980
sort of stuff.

520
00:24:59.039 --> 00:25:02.039
Yeah. but and it suits using elements of television.

521
00:25:02.099 --> 00:25:03.720
What it's about, it's video narsis.

522
00:25:03.779 --> 00:25:06.720
It's about the fact that television, not just Doctor Who, but

523
00:25:06.720 --> 00:25:10.500
television generally has become a very violent place at this

524
00:25:10.500 --> 00:25:10.799
time.

525
00:25:10.859 --> 00:25:13.680
Like all of those American dramas that people are consuming

526
00:25:13.680 --> 00:25:15.240
whether it's the A team and all that sort of stuff.

527
00:25:15.299 --> 00:25:18.420
Have horrific things happen to people, and then they all go, ha, ha

528
00:25:18.420 --> 00:25:19.019
and then they move on.

529
00:25:19.079 --> 00:25:22.619
You know, it's the era of television and that's the story it's

530
00:25:22.619 --> 00:25:24.000
telling, not just Doctor Who.

531
00:25:24.059 --> 00:25:28.440
But it's, it's, it does it by creating a TV show that involves the

532
00:25:28.440 --> 00:25:31.440
doctor and his companions and the guest starts going through

533
00:25:31.440 --> 00:25:32.160
corridors.

534
00:25:32.400 --> 00:25:34.920
It's literally a doctor actually watching it.

535
00:25:34.980 --> 00:25:36.720
Yeah, but that's also not what parody is.

536
00:25:36.779 --> 00:25:40.500
You know, parody is taking sort of, you know, the most laughable

537
00:25:40.500 --> 00:25:43.859
or the most generic aspects of something and writing them large

538
00:25:43.859 --> 00:25:47.039
which is what vengeance. not an accurate reflection of what Doctor

539
00:25:47.039 --> 00:25:47.940
Who does all the time.

540
00:25:48.000 --> 00:25:48.480
No.

541
00:25:48.480 --> 00:25:52.680
A big difference between vengeance on Varos and Mindwarp is that

542
00:25:52.680 --> 00:25:56.279
Varos has a very, very clear theme, a very, very clear point.

543
00:25:56.339 --> 00:25:57.180
Yes.

544
00:25:57.180 --> 00:25:58.319
How well it's done.

545
00:25:58.380 --> 00:26:00.779
You can argue, but it's got something to say.

546
00:26:00.839 --> 00:26:02.759
What the hell is mind warp about?

547
00:26:02.819 --> 00:26:03.900
such a hodgepodge.

548
00:26:03.960 --> 00:26:05.579
Brain alteration is bad.

549
00:26:05.700 --> 00:26:09.059
Perry says, no one likes brain alter-ish.

550
00:26:09.119 --> 00:26:11.640
That seems like...

551
00:26:12.299 --> 00:26:14.519
She's not talking for me.

552
00:26:14.579 --> 00:26:18.420
And that's what I picking up that it's exactly the point.

553
00:26:18.480 --> 00:26:25.079
Varos has a clear thing for me of what it's doing and what it is.

554
00:26:25.140 --> 00:26:28.019
You can think that, well, that's a bit rubbish, or you don't think

555
00:26:28.019 --> 00:26:30.660
it should be doing that, but it knows what it's doing, and I

556
00:26:30.660 --> 00:26:32.279
actually think it does it really, really well.

557
00:26:32.339 --> 00:26:34.859
Even if you have someone chewing the scenery like Quilla, right?

558
00:26:34.920 --> 00:26:38.759
But you have so much good in it, like the Martin Jarvis's

559
00:26:38.759 --> 00:26:41.759
characters, the governor, that is just elegance personified for

560
00:26:41.759 --> 00:26:41.940
me.

561
00:26:42.000 --> 00:26:45.240
You have the meta nature of Eric and Etta watching it from the

562
00:26:45.240 --> 00:26:46.740
sidelines and they're watching television.

563
00:26:46.799 --> 00:26:48.180
They're watching Doctor Who from there.

564
00:26:48.240 --> 00:26:50.339
And that works as well because they do.

565
00:26:50.400 --> 00:26:53.880
And it is the wider story of Dog 2 in season 22 and C23.

566
00:26:54.059 --> 00:26:57.180
You can disagree with what season 22 is going for. going for

567
00:26:57.180 --> 00:26:57.480
something.

568
00:26:57.539 --> 00:26:59.700
Season 23 feels at sea.

569
00:26:59.759 --> 00:27:01.140
It doesn't know what it wants.

570
00:27:01.200 --> 00:27:03.960
It's like they suddenly went, 0 my god, is that the time?

571
00:27:04.019 --> 00:27:07.079
We have a season to write, and we've only got a week to write it

572
00:27:07.079 --> 00:27:07.980
and this is what they come up with.

573
00:27:08.039 --> 00:27:09.660
We've 18 months, for goodness sake.

574
00:27:09.900 --> 00:27:12.359
I think it's a function of the real world.

575
00:27:12.420 --> 00:27:15.240
I think it's being told, no, you're making Doctor Who wrong.

576
00:27:15.299 --> 00:27:16.440
But not being told why.

577
00:27:16.440 --> 00:27:19.079
Not being told how to fix it and what people want.

578
00:27:19.859 --> 00:27:23.160
I mean, that's baffling to me that they need to be told what's

579
00:27:23.160 --> 00:27:24.839
wrong. would agree.

580
00:27:24.900 --> 00:27:26.039
A bereft of ideas.

581
00:27:26.099 --> 00:27:30.059
And look at how vengeance on Varus resolves itself because it is a

582
00:27:30.059 --> 00:27:33.660
bad story for the doctor because he doesn't actually do anything.

583
00:27:33.720 --> 00:27:37.920
And had he not turned up, the same thing would have taken place.

584
00:27:39.180 --> 00:27:43.079
Because the Galatron Mining Corporation or something reduces the

585
00:27:43.079 --> 00:27:45.480
price of Zeiton Zebnerin creases it all.

586
00:27:45.539 --> 00:27:49.859
Some god thing implies it applies a tariff, does something.

587
00:27:49.859 --> 00:27:54.420
And everything's fine again, and the doctor turns out, didn't need

588
00:27:54.420 --> 00:27:55.019
to do anything.

589
00:27:55.079 --> 00:27:59.700
I mean, what the doctor does is ensure the survival of the good

590
00:27:59.700 --> 00:28:02.279
governor to make sure going forward.

591
00:28:02.339 --> 00:28:04.680
He does actually cause, because I think without that, maybe the

592
00:28:04.680 --> 00:28:07.259
price of Zeiton 7 is improved.

593
00:28:07.319 --> 00:28:09.900
But even so, you still have a corrupt regime running.

594
00:28:09.960 --> 00:28:12.720
But what you don't get is the doctor being a proper hero.

595
00:28:12.779 --> 00:28:14.640
Like he wanders through this sort of miserable thing.

596
00:28:15.660 --> 00:28:16.920
I think he is from a hero in it.

597
00:28:16.980 --> 00:28:18.660
Anyway, but that's Varos, and that's what we're here to talk

598
00:28:18.660 --> 00:28:18.839
about.

599
00:28:18.900 --> 00:28:21.539
So what about Sill on Varos?

600
00:28:21.599 --> 00:28:25.019
And that's one of the things that I dislike Mindwalk for and love

601
00:28:25.019 --> 00:28:29.279
Varos for is because Sill is so much better in vengeance on

602
00:28:29.279 --> 00:28:29.759
Varos.

603
00:28:29.819 --> 00:28:33.839
The performance is so much more subtle and interesting and

604
00:28:33.839 --> 00:28:39.480
measured, whereas in mind warp, he just turns into a comic, not

605
00:28:39.480 --> 00:28:41.880
even villain, just a comedy relief character.

606
00:28:41.940 --> 00:28:43.740
He's stripped of his villainy.

607
00:28:43.799 --> 00:28:47.220
He's stripped of that dark villainy that he has in Varos.

608
00:28:47.279 --> 00:28:49.680
In Varos, the costume is so much better.

609
00:28:49.740 --> 00:28:53.940
It's a murkier green, like he's come out of the shore, the murky

610
00:28:53.940 --> 00:28:57.359
bits of the shore, rather than this fluorescent green colour.

611
00:28:57.420 --> 00:29:00.480
It's wet and oozy and shiny in barrass.

612
00:29:00.539 --> 00:29:03.599
It's got a proper headpiece rather than this kind of flat thing.

613
00:29:03.660 --> 00:29:05.400
The mask in mind warp.

614
00:29:05.460 --> 00:29:08.220
Sometimes he's coming down and starting to cover the top of his

615
00:29:08.220 --> 00:29:12.180
eyebrows in his eyes. that you can see the makeup painted on in a

616
00:29:12.180 --> 00:29:12.900
completely different way.

617
00:29:12.960 --> 00:29:13.680
It is...

618
00:29:13.680 --> 00:29:14.039
No, no.

619
00:29:14.099 --> 00:29:15.240
We've seen Carnival of Monsters.

620
00:29:15.299 --> 00:29:19.079
No, but his still and his costume and his portrayal is chalk and

621
00:29:19.079 --> 00:29:19.740
cheese between the two.

622
00:29:19.799 --> 00:29:25.259
So I actually think that the costume is better in mind warp.

623
00:29:25.319 --> 00:29:29.700
And the reason is, I think it's like, it looks like a costume.

624
00:29:29.819 --> 00:29:31.799
No, it looks like a costume.

625
00:29:31.859 --> 00:29:32.279
I'm sorry.

626
00:29:32.279 --> 00:29:33.900
Mind warp, mind warp.

627
00:29:33.960 --> 00:29:36.900
It looks like you've got a man dressed as a green thing, whereas

628
00:29:36.900 --> 00:29:39.599
inventions of virus, you go, wow, that looks so good.

629
00:29:39.660 --> 00:29:40.980
I'm so impressed.

630
00:29:40.980 --> 00:29:41.700
Don't go like that.

631
00:29:41.759 --> 00:29:44.339
So he's kind of brown and glistening.

632
00:29:44.400 --> 00:29:46.319
And he's got a pinched off end.

633
00:29:46.380 --> 00:29:49.200
And so he just looks like a turd.

634
00:29:49.200 --> 00:29:52.680
And do you know what I mean?

635
00:29:52.740 --> 00:29:54.000
Like, it's the pinch float.

636
00:29:54.059 --> 00:29:56.400
When he walked in, do you know what my uncle said when I was

637
00:29:56.400 --> 00:29:58.259
watching Bear Angel Barrows for the Upteenth time.

638
00:29:58.259 --> 00:29:59.940
Chris, why are you watching this again?

639
00:30:00.180 --> 00:30:02.700
No, no, he better than that.

640
00:30:02.759 --> 00:30:05.160
He said, oh, he's got a big donga.

641
00:30:09.420 --> 00:30:12.720
And still had enough poison to be able to.

642
00:30:13.559 --> 00:30:16.440
So I think that's a problem.

643
00:30:16.500 --> 00:30:20.640
I also think that the fin flap things around his head don't work

644
00:30:20.640 --> 00:30:21.299
quite as well.

645
00:30:21.359 --> 00:30:26.759
And I think that the new costume at least has some attempt to kind

646
00:30:26.759 --> 00:30:30.720
of hide the terrible because there's a very, very clear hole for

647
00:30:30.720 --> 00:30:34.559
Nabil's face to, you know, go through the headpiece.

648
00:30:34.619 --> 00:30:36.779
Well, see, I find I don't see it in embarrassed, but I do see it

649
00:30:36.779 --> 00:30:37.380
in mine.

650
00:30:37.440 --> 00:30:39.059
All I'm seeing is a man in a mask.

651
00:30:39.119 --> 00:30:40.380
A man with a head covering.

652
00:30:40.440 --> 00:30:43.079
Yeah, no, I mean, I think that they've gone back to the drawing

653
00:30:43.079 --> 00:30:45.480
board and tried to address some of the problems.

654
00:30:45.539 --> 00:30:48.539
No, I think they've just lost all the designs from the previous

655
00:30:48.539 --> 00:30:50.700
like all that's been shredded and they have to...

656
00:30:50.759 --> 00:30:51.839
That seems like it, though.

657
00:30:52.079 --> 00:30:54.480
Yeah, they destroy the episodes.

658
00:30:54.539 --> 00:30:55.559
They keep all the paperwork.

659
00:30:55.559 --> 00:31:01.319
Talking about silly in general, I think it is, again, indicative

660
00:31:01.319 --> 00:31:03.839
of the unfavourable shift in the series.

661
00:31:03.900 --> 00:31:08.220
He's gone from being this dark character, you know, villainous

662
00:31:08.220 --> 00:31:12.720
character who sort of was a bit repulsive and said these weird... and

663
00:31:12.720 --> 00:31:13.980
he's become comic relief.

664
00:31:14.339 --> 00:31:16.680
Because they've said, we don't want elements like that.

665
00:31:16.740 --> 00:31:21.660
We don't want sort of hard hitting or brutal or nasty characters.

666
00:31:21.720 --> 00:31:24.539
And so they said, okay, let's add comedy to the villain.

667
00:31:24.599 --> 00:31:26.640
It works for Crozier.

668
00:31:26.700 --> 00:31:27.839
I am not sure it works for still.

669
00:31:27.900 --> 00:31:30.240
He's funny in the moment, but he actually contributes nothing to

670
00:31:30.240 --> 00:31:30.599
the story.

671
00:31:30.720 --> 00:31:34.079
But he is funny in Vengeance and the virus because it's done, but

672
00:31:34.079 --> 00:31:34.799
yeah.

673
00:31:34.799 --> 00:31:36.420
Yeah, he's got the governor.

674
00:31:36.420 --> 00:31:38.759
And the malfunctioning translator.

675
00:31:39.000 --> 00:31:41.880
But that's what makes it all those slight eccentricities for me is

676
00:31:41.880 --> 00:31:45.240
what is what makes, like, I know people keep saying that stories

677
00:31:45.240 --> 00:31:48.119
like Varos are just relentless, but they're not because there are

678
00:31:48.119 --> 00:31:51.779
so many lovely moments, like, you know, There's a lot of humours.

679
00:31:51.900 --> 00:31:53.579
Like, you know, the governor's saying, you know, you know, don't

680
00:31:53.579 --> 00:31:53.700
tell.

681
00:31:53.700 --> 00:31:57.299
It's my only amusement, you know, in terms of, there are lovely

682
00:31:57.299 --> 00:31:59.099
moments throughout there, I was like that.

683
00:31:59.099 --> 00:32:02.279
And still, it's just such, still, for me, feels like an actual

684
00:32:02.279 --> 00:32:04.019
villainous character in Varrels.

685
00:32:04.079 --> 00:32:06.000
I just play...

686
00:32:06.059 --> 00:32:08.579
And in mind warp, he's just there to feed lions to feed comedy

687
00:32:08.579 --> 00:32:11.039
lines and everything else I've said about the costume.

688
00:32:11.099 --> 00:32:14.940
You see, I actually really like the comedy duo of Christopher Ryan

689
00:32:14.940 --> 00:32:17.339
and Nabil Shaban in Mind Warp.

690
00:32:17.400 --> 00:32:19.319
I think Christopher Ryan is great.

691
00:32:19.380 --> 00:32:21.480
Like, I think he's really, really terrific.

692
00:32:21.480 --> 00:32:27.599
And I kind of like seeing Seal panicky and on the back foot, which

693
00:32:27.599 --> 00:32:31.500
he does at the end, doesn't he, of vengeance on Varos?

694
00:32:31.559 --> 00:32:35.279
But that's his default mode all the way through the...

695
00:32:35.400 --> 00:32:35.819
Yeah, yeah.

696
00:32:35.880 --> 00:32:39.539
I mean, it's, yeah, I like the comedy duo between Kiv and Sil.

697
00:32:39.599 --> 00:32:41.220
It's different, but there's still, it's not silly.

698
00:32:41.279 --> 00:32:42.900
It's like it's a different thing to me.

699
00:32:42.960 --> 00:32:45.180
It's a different creature. a different person, a different

700
00:32:45.180 --> 00:32:45.480
character.

701
00:32:45.539 --> 00:32:48.420
I've just had the astonishing idea of what if they didn't have

702
00:32:48.420 --> 00:32:51.119
kids and it was still who wanted his brain transplanted into

703
00:32:51.119 --> 00:32:51.539
Perry.

704
00:32:51.660 --> 00:32:54.779
It would change the ending of the episode quite, quite markedly.

705
00:32:54.839 --> 00:32:55.740
I missed that punchline.

706
00:32:55.799 --> 00:32:56.519
Oh, ew.

707
00:32:59.579 --> 00:33:03.359
And he doesn't do that nearly as well or as sinisterly as he does

708
00:33:03.359 --> 00:33:04.079
in Barros.

709
00:33:04.619 --> 00:33:06.299
It's pretty great.

710
00:33:06.299 --> 00:33:09.480
He's brilliant in Barros. especially the way it comes in on that

711
00:33:09.480 --> 00:33:09.960
cliffhanger.

712
00:33:10.019 --> 00:33:11.220
Oh my god, that story is so good.

713
00:33:13.200 --> 00:33:16.440
That's one of the many things I don't like about Mind Warp is

714
00:33:16.440 --> 00:33:16.980
still.

715
00:33:17.099 --> 00:33:17.579
Yeah.

716
00:33:17.579 --> 00:33:20.700
You know, like, I think Crozier is incredibly great.

717
00:33:21.000 --> 00:33:24.119
And Matrona Carney's really...

718
00:33:24.119 --> 00:33:25.500
I remember Carney's really good.

719
00:33:25.559 --> 00:33:29.039
I disagree about Crozier and the acting, I think... terrible

720
00:33:29.039 --> 00:33:29.519
performance.

721
00:33:29.579 --> 00:33:33.420
I think his the way he delivers the lines is like, I am going to

722
00:33:33.420 --> 00:33:34.259
be a villain.

723
00:33:34.319 --> 00:33:35.339
It's like...

724
00:33:35.460 --> 00:33:36.839
But he only becomes like that at the very end.

725
00:33:36.900 --> 00:33:39.480
Otherwise, he's remarkably underplayed the whole time.

726
00:33:39.539 --> 00:33:41.339
No, I think he's not under played. he's a terrible threat.

727
00:33:41.400 --> 00:33:44.339
It's that it's the monotone way in which he delivers all of his

728
00:33:44.339 --> 00:33:44.700
lines.

729
00:33:44.759 --> 00:33:46.559
I just think is just magnificent.

730
00:33:46.680 --> 00:33:51.480
And it was the discontinuity guy that mentions the bit where he

731
00:33:51.480 --> 00:33:55.980
goes into cardiac arrest and then Crozier has a sip of his tea.

732
00:33:56.099 --> 00:33:57.119
I love that.

733
00:33:57.180 --> 00:33:58.920
That's a great comedy moment.

734
00:33:58.980 --> 00:34:00.420
No, that's a one of them come here.

735
00:34:00.480 --> 00:34:01.680
But he doesn't do a very good CPR.

736
00:34:01.740 --> 00:34:03.599
He's just what he spread all over.

737
00:34:03.660 --> 00:34:04.619
He can't...

738
00:34:04.619 --> 00:34:05.640
He can't...

739
00:34:05.640 --> 00:34:06.779
He can't...

740
00:34:08.400 --> 00:34:11.639
I think Patrick Rikart's been in rehearsals.

741
00:34:11.699 --> 00:34:13.079
He's looked at what Collin's doing.

742
00:34:13.139 --> 00:34:15.239
Yes, looks at what Brian's doing.

743
00:34:15.300 --> 00:34:16.380
What can I do differently?

744
00:34:16.440 --> 00:34:20.159
And he thought, if I go similarly over the top, it's just going to

745
00:34:20.159 --> 00:34:23.159
be a full on panto production, I'm going to pull it right back and

746
00:34:23.159 --> 00:34:24.179
I agree with that decision.

747
00:34:24.239 --> 00:34:28.380
I actually think he is over the top throughout.

748
00:34:28.440 --> 00:34:31.619
It's just a very different kind of... that's probably fair.

749
00:34:31.679 --> 00:34:32.519
Yeah.

750
00:34:32.579 --> 00:34:36.900
But again, there's a cartoonishness to this story that I actually

751
00:34:36.900 --> 00:34:37.739
really quite enjoy.

752
00:34:37.800 --> 00:34:39.659
It's the cartoonishness which I don't like.

753
00:34:39.719 --> 00:34:42.719
Yeah, that's what I annoyed me back in 1986.

754
00:34:42.900 --> 00:34:45.659
Yeah, the cartoonishness, which I 5050 don't mind.

755
00:34:45.719 --> 00:34:46.199
Yeah.

756
00:34:46.199 --> 00:34:47.340
Yeah.

757
00:34:47.400 --> 00:34:50.639
I mean, there are terrible moments, but generally too, I think

758
00:34:50.639 --> 00:34:52.079
that the production looks better.

759
00:34:52.139 --> 00:34:54.179
Like, I think the caves look better.

760
00:34:54.239 --> 00:34:57.239
I think that, you know, you've got that incredible. outdoors.

761
00:34:57.300 --> 00:34:58.079
Yep, yeah.

762
00:34:58.139 --> 00:35:00.539
The space corridors look better generally, I think.

763
00:35:00.599 --> 00:35:03.480
Okay, I'm going to say, I know you said earlier, Simon, that you

764
00:35:03.480 --> 00:35:05.519
think that the production is bad on all kinds of levels.

765
00:35:05.579 --> 00:35:09.179
It is poor on one or 2 levels, but I think this is one of the very

766
00:35:09.179 --> 00:35:12.239
few stories of the 1980s that looks like it's had a tone meeting.

767
00:35:12.300 --> 00:35:12.900
Yeah, yeah.

768
00:35:12.900 --> 00:35:13.739
I think the set.

769
00:35:13.860 --> 00:35:14.940
A design tone meeting.

770
00:35:15.000 --> 00:35:15.719
No, fair enough.

771
00:35:15.780 --> 00:35:16.860
I'd agree with that.

772
00:35:16.920 --> 00:35:21.539
Yeah, the set's the costume and in particular. the lighting, which

773
00:35:21.539 --> 00:35:25.920
is so much better than any production around it in Doctor Who.

774
00:35:25.980 --> 00:35:30.599
It all looks like it's created, even if you don't believe in the

775
00:35:30.599 --> 00:35:33.659
alien world, and even if it's still in a bunch of subterranean

776
00:35:33.659 --> 00:35:34.199
tunnels.

777
00:35:34.260 --> 00:35:38.400
It creates this cohesive world that the characters wander around

778
00:35:38.400 --> 00:35:40.380
in, which I think is quite an achievement.

779
00:35:40.380 --> 00:35:43.380
It just goes to show all it needs is a little thought.

780
00:35:43.440 --> 00:35:44.639
It didn't need more budget.

781
00:35:44.699 --> 00:35:47.880
It just needed some thought, some talking between departments, and

782
00:35:47.880 --> 00:35:50.460
the lights turned down, and all of a sudden it's a different

783
00:35:50.460 --> 00:35:50.639
show.

784
00:35:50.699 --> 00:35:52.920
Okay, so there are good things about the production.

785
00:35:53.039 --> 00:35:55.500
And when I'm talking about the production being flawed, I'm kind

786
00:35:55.500 --> 00:35:58.260
of talking about it in a global sense, not because it looks bad.

787
00:35:58.320 --> 00:35:59.820
I think there are things that look really good.

788
00:35:59.880 --> 00:36:02.820
I think the paint box work they do on when they're on location

789
00:36:02.820 --> 00:36:05.340
whilst on the Blu-rays.

790
00:36:05.400 --> 00:36:08.039
Like, I've always found that, I mean, when watching a rubbish VHS

791
00:36:08.039 --> 00:36:10.860
copy that was recorded on long play, so it was all a bit fuzzy.

792
00:36:10.980 --> 00:36:13.380
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

793
00:36:13.440 --> 00:36:15.719
And nowhere on, do you speak very square?

794
00:36:15.780 --> 00:36:17.760
Do you explain for the benefit of our child audience?

795
00:36:17.820 --> 00:36:18.840
What is long play?

796
00:36:18.900 --> 00:36:21.300
It was being recorded.

797
00:36:21.360 --> 00:36:24.059
It was being able to record 15, 25 minute episodes on a three-hour

798
00:36:24.059 --> 00:36:24.360
take.

799
00:36:24.420 --> 00:36:25.800
That's what long play was.

800
00:36:25.860 --> 00:36:26.460
Thank you very much.

801
00:36:26.579 --> 00:36:29.940
But, but that, it's great. using new technology.

802
00:36:30.000 --> 00:36:30.420
Great.

803
00:36:30.480 --> 00:36:31.559
Top marks.

804
00:36:31.619 --> 00:36:34.800
I agree and I love all the costumes being brighter.

805
00:36:34.860 --> 00:36:37.800
I love the fact that we've decided to finally have an alien planet

806
00:36:37.800 --> 00:36:39.239
with very racially diverse.

807
00:36:39.300 --> 00:36:41.760
People are at least trying to have a racial feel to the planet

808
00:36:41.760 --> 00:36:45.900
with having people of South Asian and you don't think that's

809
00:36:45.900 --> 00:36:46.079
good.

810
00:36:46.139 --> 00:36:48.599
Well, I just think, yeah, yeah.

811
00:36:48.659 --> 00:36:52.199
I think that's, you know, like it's very obvious why John Nathan

812
00:36:52.199 --> 00:36:55.019
Turner's happy to have lots and lots of shirtless black men in

813
00:36:55.019 --> 00:36:57.119
harnesses around the set as decoration.

814
00:36:57.179 --> 00:36:57.719
Yes.

815
00:36:57.719 --> 00:36:59.820
I think it's more from his house in Bryce.

816
00:36:59.880 --> 00:37:02.460
It's pretty hard Like, I think that is pretty hard to watch

817
00:37:02.460 --> 00:37:04.440
because it's not a racially diverse planet.

818
00:37:04.559 --> 00:37:07.079
It's Planet of the Black people, and I think that that's probably

819
00:37:07.079 --> 00:37:07.619
a problem.

820
00:37:07.800 --> 00:37:10.139
Well, no, because...

821
00:37:10.199 --> 00:37:10.920
I know. right.

822
00:37:11.039 --> 00:37:11.880
You've got twos up.

823
00:37:11.940 --> 00:37:12.719
But it depends.

824
00:37:12.780 --> 00:37:14.519
Okay, depends how you do the racially diverse casting.

825
00:37:14.579 --> 00:37:16.860
Do you just have everyone sort of mixed together or do you say

826
00:37:16.860 --> 00:37:19.559
here is a culture which is, you know, of this look?

827
00:37:19.619 --> 00:37:21.360
You can, look, it's a problem.

828
00:37:21.420 --> 00:37:26.639
Okay, when we've had 22.5 years of basically white faces, surely

829
00:37:26.639 --> 00:37:27.300
it's at least something.

830
00:37:27.360 --> 00:37:29.579
What, we get some black slaves in.

831
00:37:29.639 --> 00:37:30.420
Do you know what I mean?

832
00:37:30.480 --> 00:37:33.300
It's like saying that Toberman is finally much needed

833
00:37:33.300 --> 00:37:35.519
representation of black people in Doctor Who.

834
00:37:35.579 --> 00:37:38.340
Well, you've got lots of favours, whereas in fact, it's career.

835
00:37:38.400 --> 00:37:39.780
It's career.

836
00:37:39.780 --> 00:37:42.900
But of course, and she, but that's not quite what we get here.

837
00:37:42.960 --> 00:37:46.739
But my point being, okay, but at time, it would have been, it's

838
00:37:46.739 --> 00:37:48.840
quite a statement to make at the time, okay, even if they are

839
00:37:48.840 --> 00:37:51.539
effectively playing slave, conquered people.

840
00:37:51.599 --> 00:37:55.019
But my point being, and I love the pink and the bright colours.

841
00:37:55.079 --> 00:37:58.199
Yes, and can I just say that I would agree with you, Nathan, on

842
00:37:58.199 --> 00:38:03.000
that apart from the fact that Matrona Carney is so great.

843
00:38:03.000 --> 00:38:03.719
Exactly.

844
00:38:03.780 --> 00:38:05.639
But she's a head slave.

845
00:38:05.639 --> 00:38:07.800
But chooser, even though I don't think he's very well played, which

846
00:38:07.800 --> 00:38:11.099
is very unusual because Gordon Warnecki was in my beautiful

847
00:38:11.099 --> 00:38:11.940
dress.

848
00:38:11.940 --> 00:38:15.300
That was very good. is also a very sympathetic character.

849
00:38:15.360 --> 00:38:16.800
Yeah, yeah, I see the story.

850
00:38:16.800 --> 00:38:19.320
I see I see what you're I do recognise what you're saying, but

851
00:38:19.320 --> 00:38:21.420
okay, let's just not cast anyone like that.

852
00:38:21.480 --> 00:38:22.199
Do you know what I mean?

853
00:38:22.260 --> 00:38:23.460
No, no, no, but that's not it.

854
00:38:23.519 --> 00:38:28.320
You can cast... you can cast a Leby Parsons in a story that's not

855
00:38:28.320 --> 00:38:29.340
Planet of the Black people.

856
00:38:29.400 --> 00:38:31.679
Like, that's available to us, is it?

857
00:38:31.679 --> 00:38:33.300
He's available to us as an option.

858
00:38:33.360 --> 00:38:35.460
It wasn't thought to be available in 1986 in the same way.

859
00:38:35.519 --> 00:38:36.239
That's the problem.

860
00:38:36.300 --> 00:38:37.800
You can quite imagine that's the problem.

861
00:38:37.800 --> 00:38:40.619
So, you know, you can't, so doing, doing this anyway, that's...

862
00:38:40.619 --> 00:38:43.980
You can really imagine a Leapy Parsons playing, like, um, on a

863
00:38:43.980 --> 00:38:45.599
black man's role in terror of the verb.

864
00:38:45.659 --> 00:38:47.519
Yes, for instance, yes, exactly.

865
00:38:47.579 --> 00:38:49.079
And that's where it could you could have had that kind of

866
00:38:49.079 --> 00:38:49.440
cussing.

867
00:38:49.500 --> 00:38:49.860
Absolutely.

868
00:38:49.920 --> 00:38:52.260
But the point is, at least they've tried to sort of flavour the

869
00:38:52.260 --> 00:38:52.739
planet that way.

870
00:38:52.800 --> 00:38:57.119
Where the production is failing for me is all sorts of other

871
00:38:57.119 --> 00:38:59.699
things, I don't agree with what everyone says about the lighting.

872
00:38:59.760 --> 00:39:04.260
Yes, we've got to get away from the game show talk show lighting

873
00:39:04.260 --> 00:39:07.440
that we often get and we have in Snake Downs and Warriors of the

874
00:39:07.440 --> 00:39:07.679
Deep.

875
00:39:07.739 --> 00:39:10.559
Most egregiously last episode in Mysterious Planet.

876
00:39:10.619 --> 00:39:11.579
Exactly.

877
00:39:11.639 --> 00:39:16.380
We don't want that, but this does a different mistake because you

878
00:39:16.380 --> 00:39:18.179
can't actually see what's going on sometimes.

879
00:39:18.239 --> 00:39:20.940
People aren't in, if you're going to create pools of light.

880
00:39:21.000 --> 00:39:22.619
You need to make sure people step into them.

881
00:39:24.420 --> 00:39:26.159
Do you know what I mean?

882
00:39:26.219 --> 00:39:29.159
And that so from that point of view, I think it's too dimly lit.

883
00:39:29.219 --> 00:39:32.579
I was cheering the fact that they'd finally turn down the lights.

884
00:39:32.760 --> 00:39:36.539
And then I realised that all the cave walls are painted black and

885
00:39:36.539 --> 00:39:38.340
I simply cannot make out any details.

886
00:39:38.400 --> 00:39:40.139
So they just look like a black back door.

887
00:39:40.199 --> 00:39:40.619
Exactly.

888
00:39:40.619 --> 00:39:41.099
Yeah.

889
00:39:41.159 --> 00:39:43.139
Might as well be playing against curtains.

890
00:39:43.199 --> 00:39:44.340
Yeah, exactly.

891
00:39:44.400 --> 00:39:47.639
It's quite a weird thing to be sitting there saying, thank you for

892
00:39:47.639 --> 00:39:48.539
turning down the lights.

893
00:39:48.599 --> 00:39:49.440
Oh god I can't see anything.

894
00:39:49.500 --> 00:39:51.960
And interestingly, just at the risk of talking about Varos again.

895
00:39:52.019 --> 00:39:53.699
I actually think the lighting in Barros is actually very, very

896
00:39:53.699 --> 00:39:56.039
good because I think it is dimly lit in a way that you can still

897
00:39:56.039 --> 00:39:56.940
see what's going on.

898
00:39:57.000 --> 00:39:59.760
And does the same thing that this story does where you have

899
00:39:59.760 --> 00:40:00.360
strobes.

900
00:40:00.420 --> 00:40:01.019
Exactly.

901
00:40:01.079 --> 00:40:03.360
Yes, the strobing. like you've got that strobe lighting.

902
00:40:03.420 --> 00:40:04.019
It's great.

903
00:40:04.079 --> 00:40:05.639
And I know it flashes on the doctor's face on one of the

904
00:40:05.639 --> 00:40:08.699
cliffhangers and that might affect you. which is a really nice

905
00:40:08.699 --> 00:40:09.179
effect.

906
00:40:09.239 --> 00:40:11.340
But if it wasn't for the strobe lighting, you wouldn't have

907
00:40:11.340 --> 00:40:12.360
actually seen Collins' reaction.

908
00:40:12.420 --> 00:40:13.920
Maybe that would have been a better thing.

909
00:40:13.980 --> 00:40:14.460
I don't know.

910
00:40:14.519 --> 00:40:16.380
But you know what I'm saying?

911
00:40:16.380 --> 00:40:19.079
I'm certain that even with the studio lights turned off, you would

912
00:40:19.079 --> 00:40:20.699
have seen...

913
00:40:22.440 --> 00:40:27.539
My point being that turning down the lights in it of itself is

914
00:40:27.539 --> 00:40:29.880
only phase one of what has to be done.

915
00:40:30.300 --> 00:40:33.360
Now we actually have to block the cards.

916
00:40:33.480 --> 00:40:37.739
There is something wrong with the audio in this story and I think

917
00:40:37.739 --> 00:40:39.179
it's to do with how it's recorded.

918
00:40:39.239 --> 00:40:42.480
Like, um, you know, 2 weeks ago I talked about the way they almost

919
00:40:42.480 --> 00:40:44.760
had to turn the microphone levels up in snake dance, to catch

920
00:40:44.760 --> 00:40:46.980
Collette O'Neill's dialogue, so you've got all this roomy noise.

921
00:40:47.039 --> 00:40:48.300
I actually think they've done the opposite here.

922
00:40:48.360 --> 00:40:52.619
They've either turned the audio down when they've recorded in the

923
00:40:52.619 --> 00:40:55.079
studio to avoid that kind of roomy studio noise.

924
00:40:55.199 --> 00:40:58.380
And I'm finding that quiet moments of syllables and lines of

925
00:40:58.380 --> 00:41:00.840
dialogue, almost actually just sink and disappear.

926
00:41:00.900 --> 00:41:05.039
And then there are other moments where musical cues overwhelm the

927
00:41:05.039 --> 00:41:07.440
dialogue to such an extent that you just can't make out what

928
00:41:07.440 --> 00:41:08.099
people are saying.

929
00:41:08.159 --> 00:41:10.559
There are various things that are muttered that act as mutter to

930
00:41:10.559 --> 00:41:13.320
each other that are just probably meant to be throwaway lines, but

931
00:41:13.320 --> 00:41:15.719
sometimes I think, was I supposed to actually understand what was

932
00:41:15.719 --> 00:41:16.559
just said there?

933
00:41:16.619 --> 00:41:19.260
I think it's when Perry, you know, die well, my lady, and Perry

934
00:41:19.260 --> 00:41:19.800
leaves.

935
00:41:19.860 --> 00:41:22.199
And I thought, Brian Blessed then says something remarkably

936
00:41:22.199 --> 00:41:23.639
quietly in the cell.

937
00:41:23.699 --> 00:41:26.519
And there are these there are all these moments where I just can't

938
00:41:26.519 --> 00:41:27.239
hear what's going on.

939
00:41:27.300 --> 00:41:31.380
This isn't young people mumbling a lot these days, is it?

940
00:41:31.440 --> 00:41:34.139
No, there's definitely a problem with the quality.

941
00:41:34.139 --> 00:41:36.480
This is, this is, well, this is me when I'm, I thought this in

942
00:41:36.480 --> 00:41:37.739
1997.

943
00:41:37.920 --> 00:41:41.099
I know you say, oh, it's because, you know, young people mumble

944
00:41:41.099 --> 00:41:42.420
these days because we're all getting deaf.

945
00:41:42.480 --> 00:41:45.300
Why don't I find that with Mysterious Planet?

946
00:41:45.300 --> 00:41:45.840
No, fair enough.

947
00:41:45.900 --> 00:41:47.639
You know, if you have to compare it with everything around.

948
00:41:47.760 --> 00:41:51.000
And that's what I say about, like, the Jody audio as well is why

949
00:41:51.000 --> 00:41:53.940
can I not understand what's being said in the Jody series, but I

950
00:41:53.940 --> 00:41:55.980
can, in what we've got now, the sheeter series.

951
00:41:56.159 --> 00:41:59.280
I think it's a symptom of the confluence of a couple of things, one

952
00:41:59.280 --> 00:42:03.420
is bad studio sound recording, which is endemic in this era and

953
00:42:03.420 --> 00:42:05.699
becomes worse in the Sylvester McCoy era.

954
00:42:05.760 --> 00:42:06.239
Okay.

955
00:42:06.239 --> 00:42:10.619
Also, the sometimes tortured dialogue that Eric's saying.

956
00:42:10.679 --> 00:42:13.079
You're trying to work out what they've actually just been talking

957
00:42:13.079 --> 00:42:13.440
about.

958
00:42:13.500 --> 00:42:16.019
And Nicola Bryant's accent.

959
00:42:16.079 --> 00:42:18.960
So a lot of what's...

960
00:42:19.019 --> 00:42:19.500
It is.

961
00:42:19.559 --> 00:42:21.960
And a lot of what Perry says gets a bit lost because I'm trying to

962
00:42:21.960 --> 00:42:23.519
work out what she just actually said.

963
00:42:23.579 --> 00:42:25.079
Because she's fitting it out sometimes.

964
00:42:25.139 --> 00:42:25.800
That's right.

965
00:42:25.860 --> 00:42:28.260
And so there's a scene early on where the doctor and Perry are

966
00:42:28.260 --> 00:42:30.360
outside Crozier's laboratory and everyone leaves.

967
00:42:30.360 --> 00:42:32.400
And the doctor says they weren't hanging about.

968
00:42:32.400 --> 00:42:36.059
And Perry says, neither did they look very pleased, which is just

969
00:42:36.059 --> 00:42:37.679
a bit...

970
00:42:37.739 --> 00:42:40.619
Oh, that's that's surely that's Eric saying.

971
00:42:40.679 --> 00:42:42.000
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

972
00:42:42.000 --> 00:42:43.739
Absolutely needed.

973
00:42:43.739 --> 00:42:47.699
Exactly. bad recording and the bad line and Perry's accent.

974
00:42:47.760 --> 00:42:51.539
I have never once been able to work out what she was saying until

975
00:42:51.539 --> 00:42:55.079
this time probably the 20th time I've watched Michael when I went

976
00:42:55.079 --> 00:42:56.699
to the transcripts and looked it up.

977
00:42:56.760 --> 00:43:00.539
Yeah And there's numerous moments like that throughout the story.

978
00:43:00.599 --> 00:43:01.019
You're right.

979
00:43:01.079 --> 00:43:03.900
There is something wrong with the quality of the sound recording.

980
00:43:03.960 --> 00:43:09.960
Can I say that the music, however, is unbelievably good.

981
00:43:10.079 --> 00:43:11.039
Yeah.

982
00:43:11.099 --> 00:43:16.860
So he only does this story, I think, is a real composer that gets

983
00:43:16.860 --> 00:43:17.340
other words.

984
00:43:17.400 --> 00:43:18.659
It is a real composer, I think.

985
00:43:18.719 --> 00:43:20.400
And it is terrific.

986
00:43:20.460 --> 00:43:22.019
I mean just absolutely splendid.

987
00:43:22.079 --> 00:43:24.420
And it's part of J&T's change.

988
00:43:24.480 --> 00:43:27.780
I mean, one of the cosmetic changes that JNT made in the hiatus

989
00:43:27.780 --> 00:43:31.619
was stopping using the radiophonic workshop and going back to

990
00:43:31.619 --> 00:43:34.679
freelance composers, which is why you have Dominic Glynn on

991
00:43:34.679 --> 00:43:37.260
serious Planets and the final 2 pass.

992
00:43:37.320 --> 00:43:40.019
My only observation about the music from this point on in the

993
00:43:40.019 --> 00:43:43.199
series, including the theme music and most egregiously on this

994
00:43:43.199 --> 00:43:44.280
arrangement of the theme music.

995
00:43:44.340 --> 00:43:45.119
Oh, God.

996
00:43:45.119 --> 00:43:46.199
It's too treble.

997
00:43:46.260 --> 00:43:47.460
Like what we miss.

998
00:43:47.519 --> 00:43:50.579
I so missed that base sound.

999
00:43:50.639 --> 00:43:52.679
What do you think of the music next week on Terror of the

1000
00:43:52.679 --> 00:43:53.340
Fluffoids?

1001
00:43:53.400 --> 00:43:55.440
I can't remember it, but it's pretty bad too.

1002
00:43:55.500 --> 00:43:57.059
It's a bit tinny.

1003
00:43:57.119 --> 00:44:00.539
I think, you know, but he hasn't the nice, like, regal sounds when

1004
00:44:00.539 --> 00:44:01.500
the mentors are coming in.

1005
00:44:01.559 --> 00:44:03.599
There are all these sorts of loving touches and the music in

1006
00:44:03.599 --> 00:44:04.619
episode four, particularly.

1007
00:44:04.679 --> 00:44:05.460
Yes, wonderful.

1008
00:44:05.460 --> 00:44:07.440
Absolutely sells the foreboding thing.

1009
00:44:07.500 --> 00:44:10.679
So yeah, so the music is one aspect, which I'm happy too. say is a

1010
00:44:10.679 --> 00:44:11.039
positive.

1011
00:44:11.099 --> 00:44:15.119
And I hesitate to use the word exotic in light of what we were

1012
00:44:15.119 --> 00:44:18.480
talking about earlier, but I feel like the culture is being

1013
00:44:18.480 --> 00:44:21.239
presented in an exotic way on screen.

1014
00:44:21.300 --> 00:44:23.519
And the music really helps to sell that.

1015
00:44:23.579 --> 00:44:27.599
It feels like it's sort of otherworldly. without putting bongs in

1016
00:44:27.599 --> 00:44:29.940
for, you know, yeah, yeah. you know what I mean?

1017
00:44:30.000 --> 00:44:30.900
Like that's the thing, you know.

1018
00:44:30.960 --> 00:44:31.739
Well, you know what I mean?

1019
00:44:41.280 --> 00:44:46.079
So, one thing about cell, and I'm glad that the series is doing

1020
00:44:46.079 --> 00:44:49.800
this, is the series has become too backward looking at the

1021
00:44:49.800 --> 00:44:50.099
moment.

1022
00:44:50.159 --> 00:44:53.579
It's too much looking at its past glories, which is, you know

1023
00:44:53.579 --> 00:44:56.159
maybe one of those. trying to relive and recreate its past.

1024
00:44:56.219 --> 00:44:56.639
Well, exactly.

1025
00:44:56.699 --> 00:44:57.539
Never reliving them well.

1026
00:44:57.599 --> 00:45:01.320
We talked last week in Warriors deep about the fact that it's

1027
00:45:01.320 --> 00:45:03.599
never good enough just to have a returning element.

1028
00:45:03.659 --> 00:45:07.260
You have to actually bring with them what made them special.

1029
00:45:07.380 --> 00:45:10.079
So bringing the brigadier back for Modern Undead is a hiding to

1030
00:45:10.079 --> 00:45:13.500
nothing unless you've surrounded him with unit and are having an

1031
00:45:13.500 --> 00:45:16.619
alien invasion because that's what people are remembering. what

1032
00:45:16.619 --> 00:45:16.980
he's for.

1033
00:45:17.039 --> 00:45:18.420
That's right.

1034
00:45:18.480 --> 00:45:21.659
So you can't just have, like we spoke about last week, a bunch of

1035
00:45:21.659 --> 00:45:24.960
sea devils and Silurians ripped out of their natural Malcolm

1036
00:45:24.960 --> 00:45:29.159
Hulkian habitat and just put in some white space corridors.

1037
00:45:29.219 --> 00:45:29.880
It doesn't work.

1038
00:45:29.940 --> 00:45:33.000
It's what we said about bringing the ice warriors back. you know

1039
00:45:33.000 --> 00:45:35.039
it's just a costume at that point.

1040
00:45:35.099 --> 00:45:37.980
Like all you're doing is bringing back a used costume.

1041
00:45:38.039 --> 00:45:41.820
It doesn't matter who's invading the sea base at that point

1042
00:45:41.820 --> 00:45:42.000
really.

1043
00:45:42.059 --> 00:45:45.659
And so the only the only examples that we've had in recent times

1044
00:45:45.659 --> 00:45:51.420
of a new, interesting menace being revisited are the Mara and

1045
00:45:51.420 --> 00:45:51.900
Sill.

1046
00:45:51.960 --> 00:45:53.039
And that's great.

1047
00:45:53.099 --> 00:45:55.019
That's the show creating new law.

1048
00:45:55.139 --> 00:45:55.800
New Legends.

1049
00:45:55.920 --> 00:45:56.340
That's right.

1050
00:45:56.400 --> 00:45:59.159
It's children watching the show now and I think children are

1051
00:45:59.159 --> 00:46:01.139
dropping away as an audience by this point.

1052
00:46:01.139 --> 00:46:01.800
Yes, they are.

1053
00:46:01.860 --> 00:46:04.980
Watching the show and going, I remember that from last year and

1054
00:46:04.980 --> 00:46:06.119
getting a thrill about that.

1055
00:46:06.179 --> 00:46:08.280
I put a lolly snake on my arm kind of thing.

1056
00:46:08.340 --> 00:46:10.199
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

1057
00:46:10.260 --> 00:46:13.679
And I think that actually probably has a lot to say about the

1058
00:46:13.679 --> 00:46:18.300
paucity of ideas coming from the production team slash Eric

1059
00:46:18.300 --> 00:46:21.900
Seywood, really, that they're not coming up with these endless new

1060
00:46:21.900 --> 00:46:23.400
threats that they can then revisit.

1061
00:46:23.460 --> 00:46:25.320
And so they've got to look back at the classics.

1062
00:46:25.380 --> 00:46:29.460
I think it's good that we are taking a recent monster and

1063
00:46:29.460 --> 00:46:30.360
expanding upon them.

1064
00:46:30.420 --> 00:46:31.320
Definitely.

1065
00:46:31.380 --> 00:46:32.340
I entirely agree with that.

1066
00:46:32.400 --> 00:46:35.940
Because, I mean, we talk about origin stories with snake dance, and

1067
00:46:35.940 --> 00:46:37.380
in a sense, that's what we have here.

1068
00:46:37.440 --> 00:46:42.420
We did mention Thoros Peter in Vengeance on Clara.

1069
00:46:42.480 --> 00:46:43.019
Oh, Peter.

1070
00:46:43.079 --> 00:46:43.500
Yeah.

1071
00:46:43.559 --> 00:46:44.340
So here we are.

1072
00:46:44.400 --> 00:46:48.840
Can I say something that's a bit odd, though, from a frequently?

1073
00:46:53.880 --> 00:46:58.920
He knows on the beach, he knows that this is Thoros beat that they

1074
00:46:58.920 --> 00:47:00.599
are because that's the twin planet Thoros Alpha.

1075
00:47:00.659 --> 00:47:00.960
Yeah.

1076
00:47:00.960 --> 00:47:04.739
But he says, and yet this was manufactured here about the weapon.

1077
00:47:04.739 --> 00:47:08.219
And then he knows the raw speeder is still his home planet.

1078
00:47:08.280 --> 00:47:11.159
And so why is it so strange that that weapon was manufactured on

1079
00:47:11.159 --> 00:47:11.880
Taurus Beta?

1080
00:47:11.940 --> 00:47:12.480
Do you know what I mean?

1081
00:47:12.539 --> 00:47:13.320
There's weird things here.

1082
00:47:13.380 --> 00:47:17.579
And also the fact that Perry, who was also in the room when Sill

1083
00:47:17.579 --> 00:47:20.460
is calling in the cavalry in Vengeance on Varos, from Thoros, from

1084
00:47:20.460 --> 00:47:21.960
my home planet from Thoros Beta.

1085
00:47:22.019 --> 00:47:24.780
And yet, she doesn't know that Thorosby here is still his home

1086
00:47:24.780 --> 00:47:25.139
planet.

1087
00:47:25.199 --> 00:47:27.719
Well, it's just annoying. just space name.

1088
00:47:27.780 --> 00:47:28.619
Do you know what I mean?

1089
00:47:28.679 --> 00:47:29.639
The planet's space name.

1090
00:47:29.639 --> 00:47:31.440
Nevertheless, there are...

1091
00:47:31.500 --> 00:47:33.059
It's less that.

1092
00:47:33.119 --> 00:47:35.460
It's more the fact that the doctor's sceptical that this weapon

1093
00:47:35.460 --> 00:47:37.019
was manufactured here.

1094
00:47:37.079 --> 00:47:39.539
Yet he knows that this is where Sill's race comes from.

1095
00:47:39.599 --> 00:47:42.179
And other mentors are called the mentors.

1096
00:47:42.239 --> 00:47:44.039
Mentors are just saying our overlords, basically.

1097
00:47:44.039 --> 00:47:44.820
Yeah, yeah.

1098
00:47:44.880 --> 00:47:45.659
They're not called anything.

1099
00:47:45.719 --> 00:47:46.139
They not cool.

1100
00:47:46.199 --> 00:47:46.739
They not cool anything.

1101
00:47:46.860 --> 00:47:47.639
Thorus beatens.

1102
00:47:47.699 --> 00:47:59.760
Yeah So for me, I think perhaps the biggest flaw in the production

1103
00:47:59.760 --> 00:48:06.840
is the rock, which is rarely the return of the Slither, isn't it?

1104
00:48:07.679 --> 00:48:12.119
Except, I never thought I would say this about Ron Jones.

1105
00:48:12.119 --> 00:48:12.719
Shot better.

1106
00:48:12.780 --> 00:48:14.099
Yeah, well, he hides it.

1107
00:48:14.340 --> 00:48:16.079
And it's dark.

1108
00:48:16.139 --> 00:48:18.780
We've turned the lights off, but it is really terrible.

1109
00:48:18.840 --> 00:48:22.199
I can't have had the impression that the rock is basically the

1110
00:48:22.199 --> 00:48:25.079
prop that we see lying on the stretcher once it's dead.

1111
00:48:25.139 --> 00:48:27.059
It's just the front of this creature.

1112
00:48:27.119 --> 00:48:32.039
And then some Colin has to fight with some poor prop guy sort of

1113
00:48:32.039 --> 00:48:35.820
holding up the front of this creature and wiggling it up and down

1114
00:48:35.820 --> 00:48:36.480
violently.

1115
00:48:36.599 --> 00:48:39.480
It's like a pansomime horse, but it's just the top half.

1116
00:48:39.539 --> 00:48:42.719
But no, someone's got green rubber gloves on or something.

1117
00:48:43.139 --> 00:48:44.940
Well, doesn't it?

1118
00:48:45.179 --> 00:48:49.440
Oh, I would love to see like a photograph or footage javant.

1119
00:48:49.500 --> 00:48:50.159
Gosh.

1120
00:48:50.219 --> 00:48:52.559
I wonder if there's like studio footage of that.

1121
00:48:52.619 --> 00:48:53.400
Oh I want to see it.

1122
00:48:53.460 --> 00:48:54.960
God.

1123
00:48:54.960 --> 00:48:59.699
I've been very unkind about Ron Jones in my own head.

1124
00:49:00.719 --> 00:49:06.539
He does deliver 3 execrable productions. for his 1st three, which

1125
00:49:06.539 --> 00:49:09.239
is Black Orchard, Time Flight and Arc of Infinity.

1126
00:49:09.300 --> 00:49:12.000
But with Frontios, he seems to suddenly...

1127
00:49:12.000 --> 00:49:17.159
God, that's 10 episodes of Ron Jo 14. 8 in a row.

1128
00:49:17.219 --> 00:49:20.340
Who looked at time flight and went, I know, let's get him.

1129
00:49:20.460 --> 00:49:21.420
Let's get him.

1130
00:49:21.480 --> 00:49:25.320
With Frontios, he suddenly seemed to find out what makes Dr. 2

1131
00:49:25.320 --> 00:49:25.619
work.

1132
00:49:25.679 --> 00:49:29.400
And I actually think vengeance on Varos and Milder... are actually

1133
00:49:29.400 --> 00:49:32.639
very accomplished studio productions.

1134
00:49:32.699 --> 00:49:36.659
I think Frontios looks good, but he's obviously terribly done in

1135
00:49:36.659 --> 00:49:37.320
all sorts of ways.

1136
00:49:37.380 --> 00:49:39.000
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1137
00:49:39.059 --> 00:49:41.519
There's a lot of problems in Frontios, and it's also shot a little

1138
00:49:41.519 --> 00:49:43.139
bit in a pedestrian way.

1139
00:49:43.199 --> 00:49:48.119
But I think Varos and Mindwarp are whole productions in that he's

1140
00:49:48.119 --> 00:49:49.559
actually got the atmosphere, right?

1141
00:49:49.619 --> 00:49:51.239
He's covered the action properly.

1142
00:49:51.420 --> 00:49:52.199
And I was surprised.

1143
00:49:52.260 --> 00:49:55.260
There's moments in mind warp.

1144
00:49:55.320 --> 00:49:58.860
Like that glass painting where they pull back on Crozier's

1145
00:49:58.860 --> 00:50:00.960
laboratory and you can see the caves all around.

1146
00:50:01.019 --> 00:50:02.940
And the induction centre as well.

1147
00:50:03.000 --> 00:50:04.019
Yeah, that's one of those two.

1148
00:50:04.079 --> 00:50:05.219
Yes, they're a wonderful.

1149
00:50:05.280 --> 00:50:07.079
But that's the sort of thing they're starting to be able to do.

1150
00:50:07.079 --> 00:50:08.699
Eat more easily now.

1151
00:50:08.760 --> 00:50:11.219
Yeah, but it requires the thought to do it.

1152
00:50:11.219 --> 00:50:14.940
And he has thought, Cherie. that'll do in the studio.

1153
00:50:15.000 --> 00:50:18.300
And talking about the lights being turned off.

1154
00:50:18.360 --> 00:50:20.880
I like the fact there's some thought game that when you're in

1155
00:50:20.880 --> 00:50:21.900
Crozier's laboratory.

1156
00:50:21.960 --> 00:50:24.900
And suddenly it's very bright and you've got those white sales

1157
00:50:24.900 --> 00:50:26.699
with the negative space behind them.

1158
00:50:26.760 --> 00:50:29.460
It just seems to me that this is the kind of thing that you can do

1159
00:50:29.460 --> 00:50:34.800
in the Doctor Who studio, which adds so much production value and

1160
00:50:34.800 --> 00:50:38.099
doesn't require anything more than F Pennant Roberts was at the

1161
00:50:38.099 --> 00:50:38.940
helm doing timelash.

1162
00:50:39.000 --> 00:50:41.099
Well, I mean, we talked a couple of weeks ago about the importance

1163
00:50:41.099 --> 00:50:42.300
of sets, you know.

1164
00:50:42.360 --> 00:50:44.340
And this gets it, I think.

1165
00:50:44.400 --> 00:50:47.099
Because it is just space corridors.

1166
00:50:47.159 --> 00:50:50.639
And as I've said, at this point, I'm utterly, utterly sick of

1167
00:50:50.639 --> 00:50:54.179
space corridors, but I think the laboratory set looks fantastic

1168
00:50:54.179 --> 00:50:55.079
like properly good.

1169
00:50:55.139 --> 00:50:56.099
Yeah, it does look good.

1170
00:50:56.159 --> 00:50:56.340
Yeah.

1171
00:50:56.400 --> 00:50:58.800
No, there's definitely they know how to build those sorts of

1172
00:50:58.800 --> 00:50:59.099
sets.

1173
00:50:59.159 --> 00:51:02.039
The cage don't look too bad, although, again, it's sort of

1174
00:51:02.039 --> 00:51:02.579
featureless.

1175
00:51:02.639 --> 00:51:04.559
Maybe could have had a bit more interest in them.

1176
00:51:04.619 --> 00:51:07.079
It refreshing when you go to the induction centre and the other

1177
00:51:07.079 --> 00:51:09.539
mentor in the episode for the comedy relief one.

1178
00:51:09.599 --> 00:51:10.920
Just go.

1179
00:51:10.920 --> 00:51:12.239
He is great.

1180
00:51:12.300 --> 00:51:14.940
He is such nauseating things.

1181
00:51:15.960 --> 00:51:19.860
Pure padding, but he's such a delight that I don't mind.

1182
00:51:19.920 --> 00:51:21.480
That's what you do with padding.

1183
00:51:21.539 --> 00:51:23.760
You padding can be good. see.

1184
00:51:23.820 --> 00:51:24.300
Yes.

1185
00:51:24.360 --> 00:51:25.139
I love his life.

1186
00:51:25.139 --> 00:51:26.280
Padding need not be a dirty word.

1187
00:51:26.340 --> 00:51:28.860
I love his line where he says, I will, of course, have to check

1188
00:51:28.860 --> 00:51:30.420
your carte blanche.

1189
00:51:30.420 --> 00:51:32.940
And the way he turns.

1190
00:51:33.599 --> 00:51:37.500
And the fact that Yakanos doesn't kill him because he's an amusing

1191
00:51:37.500 --> 00:51:38.219
comedy character.

1192
00:51:38.699 --> 00:51:42.840
But it's also just the fact that he's so posh and so English, but

1193
00:51:42.840 --> 00:51:45.300
he's covered in green makeup and dressed as a slug.

1194
00:51:45.360 --> 00:51:47.519
He's just absolutely surprised.

1195
00:51:47.639 --> 00:51:49.440
I can't imagine it being a minister.

1196
00:51:49.559 --> 00:51:50.280
Yes, minister.

1197
00:51:50.340 --> 00:51:51.239
Absolutely.

1198
00:51:51.300 --> 00:51:53.400
I had to look I didn't look him up.

1199
00:51:53.460 --> 00:51:54.300
He may very well have been.

1200
00:51:54.360 --> 00:51:56.940
Been berated by Sir Humphrey...

1201
00:52:00.000 --> 00:52:02.940
Yeah, no, what I was saying about Ron Jones is I think he's one of

1202
00:52:02.940 --> 00:52:08.400
the vanishingly few directors of the 1980s who has a holistic view

1203
00:52:08.400 --> 00:52:09.659
of production.

1204
00:52:09.719 --> 00:52:11.340
His last 2 stories gets it right.

1205
00:52:11.400 --> 00:52:15.539
Varos and Mind Warp feel like solid productions where everything

1206
00:52:15.539 --> 00:52:16.500
has been thought about.

1207
00:52:16.619 --> 00:52:19.500
I think maybe you're also wanting to say there is that he's one of

1208
00:52:19.500 --> 00:52:21.599
the few examples of people who seem to learn from previous

1209
00:52:21.599 --> 00:52:22.139
mistakes.

1210
00:52:22.199 --> 00:52:25.019
I mean, how you could not learn from Timefly.

1211
00:52:25.079 --> 00:52:25.619
But...

1212
00:52:25.679 --> 00:52:27.059
But I mean, he does get better.

1213
00:52:27.119 --> 00:52:28.440
Like, there is a...

1214
00:52:28.440 --> 00:52:29.400
I'll put trajectory.

1215
00:52:29.460 --> 00:52:30.840
That's not what you always say.

1216
00:52:30.900 --> 00:52:33.599
You sometimes see a flat or downward trajectory.

1217
00:52:33.659 --> 00:52:34.260
Oh, yeah.

1218
00:52:34.320 --> 00:52:36.780
Let's call it the reverse penet Roberts.

1219
00:52:36.840 --> 00:52:37.800
Yes, there is.

1220
00:52:52.920 --> 00:52:55.860
One thing we haven't talked about yet is the trial, and how the

1221
00:52:55.860 --> 00:52:58.739
trial itself, because all we've talked about is mind warp as the

1222
00:52:58.739 --> 00:53:01.500
story of mine, rather than how it fits in with the trial.

1223
00:53:01.559 --> 00:53:04.860
I actually prefer the trial, but to the actual story.

1224
00:53:04.920 --> 00:53:08.340
And that's what I was going to say apart from the fact that in the

1225
00:53:08.340 --> 00:53:11.400
beginning, I think in the 1st episode, the trial completely

1226
00:53:11.400 --> 00:53:13.380
interrupts you getting into the story.

1227
00:53:13.440 --> 00:53:15.179
That's because you cut back too often.

1228
00:53:15.179 --> 00:53:18.300
It's cut back too often and all the sagacity stuff, it's all just

1229
00:53:18.300 --> 00:53:21.119
tediously... to say anything.

1230
00:53:21.179 --> 00:53:23.880
Either it just cuts back to argue about what we're seeing on

1231
00:53:23.880 --> 00:53:24.119
screen.

1232
00:53:24.179 --> 00:53:26.039
But from, yes.

1233
00:53:26.099 --> 00:53:27.599
From the 2nd episode on.

1234
00:53:27.659 --> 00:53:31.500
I think the trial sequences are some of the strongest stuff in the

1235
00:53:31.500 --> 00:53:34.199
story, and I think that it's actually some of Collins' best

1236
00:53:34.199 --> 00:53:36.000
performances in his entire era.

1237
00:53:36.119 --> 00:53:39.599
I love Colin in episodes 23 and 4 in the track.

1238
00:53:39.719 --> 00:53:40.860
Then tell it.

1239
00:53:40.920 --> 00:53:42.480
Yeah, that's really good.

1240
00:53:42.539 --> 00:53:45.659
But like, I'm not a big fan of the episode three, Cliffhanger

1241
00:53:45.659 --> 00:53:49.260
which is like in the trial rather than in the store.

1242
00:53:50.820 --> 00:53:51.659
And it's a fake hour.

1243
00:53:51.719 --> 00:53:56.460
And I don't know why suddenly the Oxo lady knows what happened to

1244
00:53:56.460 --> 00:54:00.119
Perry and stuff and is delivering all of that dialogue in episode

1245
00:54:00.119 --> 00:54:01.320
four.

1246
00:54:01.320 --> 00:54:02.039
I have a theory about that.

1247
00:54:02.099 --> 00:54:04.380
I think the valleyard was supposed to deliver all of that

1248
00:54:04.380 --> 00:54:04.980
dialogue.

1249
00:54:05.039 --> 00:54:06.840
And they said, give it to Linda.

1250
00:54:06.900 --> 00:54:07.559
Give it to Linda.

1251
00:54:07.619 --> 00:54:09.659
Or was he ill that afternoon?

1252
00:54:09.780 --> 00:54:10.320
Or something.

1253
00:54:10.380 --> 00:54:11.519
It's all tone.

1254
00:54:11.579 --> 00:54:13.619
It all sounds like Michael Jason.

1255
00:54:13.679 --> 00:54:13.920
It does.

1256
00:54:13.920 --> 00:54:15.780
It's as basic as they thought.

1257
00:54:15.840 --> 00:54:18.179
Well, Linda Bellingham hasn't had many lines, we'll give some to

1258
00:54:18.179 --> 00:54:20.880
her without any thought of the character and who should be

1259
00:54:20.880 --> 00:54:21.480
delivering it.

1260
00:54:21.539 --> 00:54:24.780
Yeah, because suddenly the judge of the tribe.

1261
00:54:24.840 --> 00:54:28.619
He's basically providing evidence, saying we had to act.

1262
00:54:28.679 --> 00:54:30.599
It's like, so this is a setup.

1263
00:54:30.659 --> 00:54:31.440
You know what I mean?

1264
00:54:32.880 --> 00:54:36.780
Also, I think it's very dangerous, Saint Colin, we had to act.

1265
00:54:38.219 --> 00:54:39.960
Do you know what?

1266
00:54:40.019 --> 00:54:43.320
I think that actually the direction of the trial scenes is better

1267
00:54:43.320 --> 00:54:45.239
than it is in the previous story.

1268
00:54:45.300 --> 00:54:51.000
And one of the reasons is that sometimes we cut to the trial sound

1269
00:54:51.000 --> 00:54:52.500
before we cut to the video.

1270
00:54:52.619 --> 00:54:56.940
So we hear like Michael Jason talk over something.

1271
00:54:57.000 --> 00:54:57.900
Or I don't remember that.

1272
00:54:58.019 --> 00:54:59.280
Yes, exactly.

1273
00:54:59.280 --> 00:55:00.780
I'm saying it over the over the...

1274
00:55:00.840 --> 00:55:05.699
And the trial continues playing on the screen sometimes. whereas

1275
00:55:05.699 --> 00:55:10.320
it's all very much, let's turn and look at the tally, you know, in

1276
00:55:10.320 --> 00:55:14.639
Mysterious Planet, here there's a little bit more kind of playing

1277
00:55:14.639 --> 00:55:18.420
with the boundaries between the trial and the and the style.

1278
00:55:18.539 --> 00:55:21.239
The main floor, though, the only flaw that with the trial

1279
00:55:21.239 --> 00:55:25.860
sequences in this segment of the trial is in episode one.

1280
00:55:25.920 --> 00:55:30.000
For some reason, we see the black floor between the 3 of them

1281
00:55:30.000 --> 00:55:31.320
which you don't see.

1282
00:55:31.440 --> 00:55:34.559
Usually it's, it's disappears to a black, like it's, it's a black

1283
00:55:34.559 --> 00:55:37.079
void going to nothing, which is kind of the effect you want, rather

1284
00:55:37.079 --> 00:55:38.460
than there is a black floor between us.

1285
00:55:38.519 --> 00:55:40.320
That's just a lighting era, I think.

1286
00:55:40.380 --> 00:55:41.880
They turn the lights up for that, obviously.

1287
00:55:41.940 --> 00:55:45.179
There's all kinds of stuff to unpick with the trial sequences.

1288
00:55:45.239 --> 00:55:47.699
You know, most of all, should they have done this at all.

1289
00:55:47.760 --> 00:55:49.739
You know, okay, they made the choice to do it.

1290
00:55:49.800 --> 00:55:54.480
I think it was extremely, you know, what Doctor Who needed was a

1291
00:55:54.480 --> 00:55:55.019
reboot.

1292
00:55:55.079 --> 00:55:57.360
It needs to be something which, again, like I said earlier, it was

1293
00:55:57.360 --> 00:55:57.960
forward looking.

1294
00:55:58.019 --> 00:55:59.159
Yeah.

1295
00:55:59.159 --> 00:56:00.300
More time lords.

1296
00:56:00.360 --> 00:56:01.260
That's what we should do.

1297
00:56:01.320 --> 00:56:03.119
More time lords in it.

1298
00:56:03.239 --> 00:56:06.300
Yeah, we need to talk about the doctor being on trial like he was

1299
00:56:06.300 --> 00:56:07.739
in 1969.

1300
00:56:07.860 --> 00:56:10.679
You know, that was come up within a bar on the back of a napkin.

1301
00:56:10.739 --> 00:56:12.000
You know what I mean?

1302
00:56:12.059 --> 00:56:13.860
But if they'd made that decision.

1303
00:56:13.920 --> 00:56:18.539
There was a way of making the trial, an interesting critique of

1304
00:56:18.539 --> 00:56:21.179
both Doctor Who and the way that television is watched, like

1305
00:56:21.179 --> 00:56:24.659
vengeance on Varos was, and it could have been much more

1306
00:56:24.659 --> 00:56:27.119
interesting and had something to say.

1307
00:56:27.179 --> 00:56:30.900
And you get glimpses of that like where they cut back to the trial

1308
00:56:30.900 --> 00:56:34.380
for a short scene where basically the inquisitor says, this is a

1309
00:56:34.380 --> 00:56:35.340
really boring opening.

1310
00:56:35.400 --> 00:56:36.780
Can we cut later?

1311
00:56:36.840 --> 00:56:38.159
They do that.

1312
00:56:38.639 --> 00:56:42.059
I could have done that all the way through and it would have had

1313
00:56:42.059 --> 00:56:46.380
this interesting kind of meta idea of the doctor watching his own

1314
00:56:46.380 --> 00:56:48.840
adventures and what that could have been really fun.

1315
00:56:48.900 --> 00:56:52.860
But instead, so many of the scenes are just the doctor and the

1316
00:56:52.860 --> 00:56:55.739
valiard bickering overnight. childishly.

1317
00:56:55.800 --> 00:56:57.780
And again, it comes back to...

1318
00:56:57.840 --> 00:56:59.400
Did they have an idea for this series?

1319
00:56:59.460 --> 00:57:00.960
What were they looking to do?

1320
00:57:01.079 --> 00:57:05.880
I think what the problem was is that, okay, we've decided we're

1321
00:57:05.880 --> 00:57:07.920
going to go with this idea for the trial, the whole season's going

1322
00:57:07.920 --> 00:57:11.820
to be framed as a trial, but they're still production wise, they're

1323
00:57:11.820 --> 00:57:15.360
still locked into this idea of you have 7A shot by Nicholas

1324
00:57:15.360 --> 00:57:18.420
Mallett, 7B shot by Ron Jones, 7 C shot by Chris Clough, right?

1325
00:57:18.480 --> 00:57:21.420
And so you've got these production box and so they feel the need

1326
00:57:21.420 --> 00:57:22.739
to do the stories in the same way.

1327
00:57:22.800 --> 00:57:26.400
And so you end up with this weird hybrid where it's not like the

1328
00:57:26.400 --> 00:57:28.679
key to time where you've just got stories which have a kind of a

1329
00:57:28.679 --> 00:57:29.460
season arc.

1330
00:57:29.519 --> 00:57:32.579
But also it's not, even though they've got the on same on-screen

1331
00:57:32.579 --> 00:57:36.119
story title, it's not really the same story in other ways.

1332
00:57:36.179 --> 00:57:38.760
I think what you might have been able to do with a bit more

1333
00:57:38.760 --> 00:57:39.300
imagination.

1334
00:57:39.360 --> 00:57:41.400
And I'm surely this would have been possible given the fact that

1335
00:57:41.400 --> 00:57:42.480
you've got the trial set.

1336
00:57:42.539 --> 00:57:47.579
So, okay, let's spend an entire block, but entire block doing all

1337
00:57:47.579 --> 00:57:50.280
14 episodes worth of trial scenes, which means that the stories

1338
00:57:50.280 --> 00:57:52.559
itself don't need to be neatly 4 episodes.

1339
00:57:52.619 --> 00:57:55.619
And imagine what it would have been like if mysterious planet, the

1340
00:57:55.619 --> 00:57:58.440
mysterious planet plot had ended halfway through part four.

1341
00:57:58.500 --> 00:58:00.960
And then the mindwalk part starts.

1342
00:58:01.019 --> 00:58:03.599
And so the cliffhanger at the end of episode 4 of the Trial of

1343
00:58:03.599 --> 00:58:07.679
Time Lord is the beginnings of like them being mindful, do you

1344
00:58:07.679 --> 00:58:07.980
know what I mean?

1345
00:58:08.039 --> 00:58:09.480
And that's where you end up with your three-part stories again.

1346
00:58:09.539 --> 00:58:14.639
What if they did a big epic story, like the Dalek master plan

1347
00:58:14.639 --> 00:58:17.340
where, you know, we go from place to place.

1348
00:58:17.400 --> 00:58:20.400
It clearly does sort of go from story to story, but not in any

1349
00:58:20.400 --> 00:58:21.360
predictable way.

1350
00:58:21.420 --> 00:58:25.019
And they're just not imaginative enough to do it.

1351
00:58:25.079 --> 00:58:28.440
And the way that they try and rope the 3 stories into the trial

1352
00:58:28.440 --> 00:58:30.599
literally makes no sense at all.

1353
00:58:30.659 --> 00:58:34.019
And it's absolutely clear that they have no idea what they're

1354
00:58:34.019 --> 00:58:35.159
heading towards because.

1355
00:58:35.340 --> 00:58:37.500
It also makes no sense from illegal.

1356
00:58:37.559 --> 00:58:38.880
No, no, no, that's right.

1357
00:58:38.940 --> 00:58:41.760
Like, you know, there's so many procedurals on TV, which sort of

1358
00:58:41.760 --> 00:58:42.659
do this clever stuff.

1359
00:58:42.719 --> 00:58:45.900
Whereas now it's like, really doctor, is it to be your defence

1360
00:58:45.900 --> 00:58:47.280
that you get better?

1361
00:58:47.400 --> 00:58:47.940
Better.

1362
00:58:48.000 --> 00:58:49.079
Like, what even is that?

1363
00:58:49.139 --> 00:58:50.159
Well, that's fine.

1364
00:58:50.159 --> 00:58:51.480
I promise.

1365
00:58:51.480 --> 00:58:52.920
I promise I vote murder again.

1366
00:58:52.980 --> 00:58:53.460
Let me off.

1367
00:58:53.519 --> 00:58:55.380
Yeah, it's tiny wine, but you can do that.

1368
00:58:55.440 --> 00:58:59.280
But all that makes that relevant evidence is when he tells Mel not

1369
00:58:59.280 --> 00:59:01.679
to wander off or tries to stop her going off and getting

1370
00:59:01.679 --> 00:59:02.159
involved.

1371
00:59:02.219 --> 00:59:03.119
And that's it.

1372
00:59:03.179 --> 00:59:06.000
Ergo, I'm not interfering.

1373
00:59:06.059 --> 00:59:08.400
I was asked by the person, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1374
00:59:08.460 --> 00:59:11.579
Okay, another parallel universe from the one I just mentioned is

1375
00:59:11.579 --> 00:59:13.920
what if Mysterious Planet is just a story?

1376
00:59:13.980 --> 00:59:16.199
And then Mind Warp is just a story.

1377
00:59:16.260 --> 00:59:18.360
And then 10 minutes from the end, 5 minutes from the end of the

1378
00:59:18.360 --> 00:59:21.000
story, 10 minutes from the end, when it's all going to hell in a

1379
00:59:21.000 --> 00:59:23.579
handbasket, that's when the doctor's something taken out of time

1380
00:59:23.579 --> 00:59:25.440
and we're transported to this thing and he comes out.

1381
00:59:25.500 --> 00:59:26.880
Oh, I like this.

1382
00:59:26.880 --> 00:59:29.699
And then and then it's like you're on trial for your life and we

1383
00:59:29.699 --> 00:59:31.380
see the end of mind whop on the screen.

1384
00:59:31.440 --> 00:59:33.780
He's absolutely horrified and he says, you took me away.

1385
00:59:33.840 --> 00:59:35.760
I was going to save her, etc.

1386
00:59:35.820 --> 00:59:38.340
And then you, I don't know, then 2 of them avoid something else

1387
00:59:38.340 --> 00:59:39.179
entirely, I guess.

1388
00:59:39.840 --> 00:59:42.119
That can't happen anywhere.

1389
00:59:42.179 --> 00:59:42.840
But then they...

1390
00:59:43.199 --> 00:59:45.780
And then the trial becomes part of the narrative rather than this

1391
00:59:45.780 --> 00:59:46.980
kind of weird bean out.

1392
00:59:47.460 --> 00:59:48.179
You had some weird stuff.

1393
00:59:48.239 --> 00:59:51.480
You'd still have some weird stuff happening in Mysterious Planet

1394
00:59:51.480 --> 00:59:54.119
to think that there's like something coming that you're not sure

1395
00:59:54.119 --> 00:59:54.719
what it is.

1396
00:59:54.780 --> 00:59:57.539
I mean, you have to rewrite half of it and you should rewrite half

1397
00:59:57.539 --> 00:59:58.019
of it anyway.

1398
00:59:58.079 --> 00:59:59.940
But that's a different way of framing it.

1399
01:00:00.000 --> 01:00:02.820
And then you have, maybe you have effectively for the vervoid

1400
01:00:02.820 --> 01:00:03.119
slot.

1401
01:00:03.179 --> 01:00:06.420
You have what is effectively like a clip show, not a clip show of

1402
01:00:06.420 --> 01:00:09.059
like a made up story, made up stories.

1403
01:00:09.119 --> 01:00:11.760
And then you just get all the exciting bits of all of the bits of

1404
01:00:11.760 --> 01:00:14.280
season 20, the original season 23 or something.

1405
01:00:14.340 --> 01:00:15.659
And I don't know how you do it.

1406
01:00:15.719 --> 01:00:16.860
Obviously, that's probably not.

1407
01:00:16.860 --> 01:00:20.219
And again, that's a way of delivering more stories in a 14 episode

1408
01:00:20.219 --> 01:00:20.760
run.

1409
01:00:20.820 --> 01:00:21.599
Exactly.

1410
01:00:21.659 --> 01:00:23.039
Thinking outside the box.

1411
01:00:23.039 --> 01:00:23.699
Exactly.

1412
01:00:23.760 --> 01:00:27.360
And this is what the production team seemed incapable of doing at

1413
01:00:27.360 --> 01:00:27.659
this point.

1414
01:00:27.719 --> 01:00:30.900
I don't know if they were paralysed by the criticism from above.

1415
01:00:30.960 --> 01:00:33.480
I don't know if they were ever able to do this kind of thing.

1416
01:00:33.659 --> 01:00:37.920
But what they needed to do if they had a trial framing sequence.

1417
01:00:37.980 --> 01:00:40.380
That's not a bad idea in itself.

1418
01:00:40.440 --> 01:00:44.340
But the way it's delivered is appallingly mundane.

1419
01:00:44.400 --> 01:00:47.940
They needed to sit down, watch some legal thrillers and say, okay

1420
01:00:47.940 --> 01:00:51.960
what's an interesting legal story that we can tell at the same

1421
01:00:51.960 --> 01:00:52.320
time?

1422
01:00:52.380 --> 01:00:55.679
Not just every time we cut back, there'll be a bit of an argument

1423
01:00:55.679 --> 01:00:57.119
and then we'll cut back.

1424
01:00:57.179 --> 01:00:59.639
Yeah, so basically what they do, what they use the trial sequences

1425
01:00:59.639 --> 01:01:02.760
for is they just don't know, like they're just not...

1426
01:01:02.820 --> 01:01:04.500
You needed brilliant reveals and rehearses.

1427
01:01:04.559 --> 01:01:08.219
But that's why, yes, but that's why I think the trial sequences

1428
01:01:08.219 --> 01:01:10.559
which we've had in Mysterious Planet, and they are the worst parts

1429
01:01:10.559 --> 01:01:12.719
of it, of something that's not very good.

1430
01:01:12.780 --> 01:01:15.239
And then you move to mind warp.

1431
01:01:15.360 --> 01:01:18.900
And I think when you, in the 2nd half of the story, the trial

1432
01:01:18.900 --> 01:01:22.679
sequence is, after you stop that bickering, then you start getting

1433
01:01:22.679 --> 01:01:24.059
wow, this is actually gripping.

1434
01:01:24.119 --> 01:01:26.579
The trial sequences are actually suddenly gripping now, whereas

1435
01:01:26.579 --> 01:01:28.260
they weren't for the last the previous 6 episodes.

1436
01:01:28.320 --> 01:01:31.679
Yeah, and the cliffhangers are like episode 12, which I think is

1437
01:01:31.679 --> 01:01:35.280
absolutely superb, which is the charge must now be genocide.

1438
01:01:35.340 --> 01:01:38.340
Yeah, which again, you know, just ups the stakes and, you know, we

1439
01:01:38.340 --> 01:01:40.800
were all congratulating ourselves because the doctor solves the

1440
01:01:40.800 --> 01:01:41.099
problem.

1441
01:01:41.099 --> 01:01:42.599
And then suddenly...

1442
01:01:42.599 --> 01:01:45.059
Because we do regress in the trial scenes do regress then in terms

1443
01:01:45.059 --> 01:01:48.360
of the verboids, because terror verboids is the story that least

1444
01:01:48.360 --> 01:01:50.340
needs the trial sequences to make sense.

1445
01:01:50.400 --> 01:01:52.980
And that's why that edited on the Blu-ray box set is so perfect

1446
01:01:52.980 --> 01:01:56.159
because you do not need the trial sequences at all.

1447
01:01:56.219 --> 01:01:57.960
That's interesting.

1448
01:01:58.019 --> 01:02:01.199
So what they actually needed to do was sit down and plot out the

1449
01:02:01.199 --> 01:02:04.860
narrative of the trial by itself beforehand.

1450
01:02:04.920 --> 01:02:08.280
And even though it seems counterintuitive, I think maybe Pip and

1451
01:02:08.280 --> 01:02:11.880
Jane Baker might have been the best place to do this because for

1452
01:02:11.880 --> 01:02:12.900
all their faults.

1453
01:02:12.960 --> 01:02:13.980
For all of their faults.

1454
01:02:14.039 --> 01:02:18.840
Absolutely, because, yeah, the episode 14 that Saywood walks off

1455
01:02:18.840 --> 01:02:20.519
with is dreadful.

1456
01:02:20.579 --> 01:02:21.179
Yes.

1457
01:02:21.179 --> 01:02:24.659
See, Flight through Entirety episode. whatever, where we perform

1458
01:02:24.659 --> 01:02:25.260
it for you.

1459
01:02:25.500 --> 01:02:27.840
Like, it's terrible.

1460
01:02:27.900 --> 01:02:31.019
And what Pip and Jane do is absolutely incoherent makes no sense

1461
01:02:31.019 --> 01:02:31.559
at all.

1462
01:02:31.619 --> 01:02:34.739
It's clearly not being built up to in any way, but it's so much

1463
01:02:34.739 --> 01:02:37.440
more entertaining anyway than what we were doing.

1464
01:02:37.500 --> 01:02:40.079
Well, they're doing the best what they can with what they hand

1465
01:02:40.079 --> 01:02:43.199
which is a cliffhanger from, you know, from nowhere.

1466
01:02:43.260 --> 01:02:46.320
But you're right, but that's why it baffles me because again, I

1467
01:02:46.320 --> 01:02:50.099
think they're still making, mentally, they are still making three

1468
01:02:50.099 --> 01:02:52.860
because remember, tariff of always an ultimate foe is effectively

1469
01:02:52.860 --> 01:02:55.260
one story, for the purposes of production point of view.

1470
01:02:55.800 --> 01:02:59.280
They are making 3 stories and then deciding to call it all the

1471
01:02:59.280 --> 01:02:59.579
same thing.

1472
01:02:59.639 --> 01:03:02.340
They haven't gotten to the mindset that this is one continuous

1473
01:03:02.340 --> 01:03:02.579
thing.

1474
01:03:02.639 --> 01:03:04.079
It's like being half pregnant.

1475
01:03:04.139 --> 01:03:05.940
It's kind of not one thing nor the other.

1476
01:03:06.000 --> 01:03:07.320
But it's worse than that.

1477
01:03:07.380 --> 01:03:09.840
They're writing for their lives.

1478
01:03:10.019 --> 01:03:13.920
But they're not showing any sign that they're doing that.

1479
01:03:13.980 --> 01:03:15.539
They were cancelled.

1480
01:03:15.599 --> 01:03:17.460
They were given.

1481
01:03:17.519 --> 01:03:18.300
They were actually cancelled.

1482
01:03:18.360 --> 01:03:19.860
Yeah, they were actually cancelled.

1483
01:03:19.920 --> 01:03:21.119
They were given instructions.

1484
01:03:21.179 --> 01:03:26.099
There's the trial and tribulations documentary on the thing, where

1485
01:03:26.099 --> 01:03:30.539
you see John McDonald's stuff about how none of that stuff in

1486
01:03:30.539 --> 01:03:32.159
Mysterious Planet makes sense.

1487
01:03:32.219 --> 01:03:35.340
You just pause the Blu-ray and you can read the demo.

1488
01:03:35.400 --> 01:03:37.679
And all of it is very clearly right.

1489
01:03:37.739 --> 01:03:40.019
And Eric Saban says, ah, we had no idea what he was talking

1490
01:03:40.019 --> 01:03:40.320
about.

1491
01:03:40.860 --> 01:03:43.739
He wasn't reading the memos coming down from the 6th floor.

1492
01:03:43.800 --> 01:03:47.460
Jonathan Palace memo on this story says good narrative, engaging

1493
01:03:47.460 --> 01:03:47.880
characters.

1494
01:03:47.940 --> 01:03:49.019
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1495
01:03:49.380 --> 01:03:49.860
Yep.

1496
01:03:49.920 --> 01:03:52.380
Because, of course, he would have worked with Philip Martin on

1497
01:03:52.380 --> 01:03:53.219
things like gangsters.

1498
01:03:53.280 --> 01:03:54.599
He knew he was a good writer.

1499
01:03:54.659 --> 01:03:56.039
He liked vengeance of virus.

1500
01:03:56.099 --> 01:03:57.420
I think his instincts are correct.

1501
01:03:57.480 --> 01:04:01.199
The instincts that are not correct are J&T and Eric Saywood's.

1502
01:04:01.260 --> 01:04:05.940
I mean, 1st time we've ever heard that because when confronted

1503
01:04:05.940 --> 01:04:09.960
with this, when confronted with their bosses saying Doctor Who's

1504
01:04:09.960 --> 01:04:13.559
got too silly and too violent and it's a bit outlandish, they

1505
01:04:13.559 --> 01:04:16.019
obviously don't understand the spaciness.

1506
01:04:16.079 --> 01:04:19.619
They think it's ridiculous. their instinct should have been to

1507
01:04:19.619 --> 01:04:22.800
okay, how can we make the series more what they want and obviously

1508
01:04:22.800 --> 01:04:25.079
what they should have done was bring it back down to earth.

1509
01:04:25.139 --> 01:04:28.619
Bring it down to Earth, change Collins, costume, et cetera, et

1510
01:04:28.619 --> 01:04:28.860
cetera.

1511
01:04:28.980 --> 01:04:30.480
And literally bring it back down to earth.

1512
01:04:30.539 --> 01:04:33.420
Set it in the present day so that you don't have...

1513
01:04:33.420 --> 01:04:35.820
Pizarro costumes and these huge performances.

1514
01:04:35.880 --> 01:04:38.760
They should have gone, this is what they want from Dodger, but

1515
01:04:38.760 --> 01:04:40.860
they lacked any of that kind of introspection.

1516
01:04:40.920 --> 01:04:45.300
But remember, the show was cancelled halfway through season 22

1517
01:04:45.300 --> 01:04:45.719
going out.

1518
01:04:45.780 --> 01:04:46.559
Okay?

1519
01:04:46.619 --> 01:04:52.320
It was not actually cancelled. because the high-ups thought that

1520
01:04:52.320 --> 01:04:55.079
season 22 was absolutely terrible.

1521
01:04:55.139 --> 01:04:57.719
They probably just thought that anyway because they thought Doctor

1522
01:04:57.719 --> 01:04:59.039
Who was terrible.

1523
01:04:59.159 --> 01:04:59.699
Okay.

1524
01:04:59.760 --> 01:05:02.699
Michael Gray cancels it is because he wants to use the money for

1525
01:05:02.699 --> 01:05:03.300
something else.

1526
01:05:03.360 --> 01:05:05.820
He wants different shows, right?

1527
01:05:05.880 --> 01:05:10.019
And so they retrospectively proclaims that it had gone off the

1528
01:05:10.019 --> 01:05:11.579
rails, it had lost its way, right?

1529
01:05:11.639 --> 01:05:15.300
Now he probably never thought it had its way, to be fair.

1530
01:05:15.360 --> 01:05:18.599
And so you get this kind of retcon that there was something wrong

1531
01:05:18.599 --> 01:05:20.940
with the show that went off the air, and I know one can argue that

1532
01:05:20.940 --> 01:05:22.800
there are issues with season 22 and there are issues with the show

1533
01:05:22.800 --> 01:05:26.099
and there are issues with what they're doing and they need to be

1534
01:05:26.099 --> 01:05:28.199
less backward looking and more forward looking at all the rest of

1535
01:05:28.199 --> 01:05:28.440
it.

1536
01:05:28.559 --> 01:05:32.280
But it wasn't really why the show was cancelled in 85.

1537
01:05:32.519 --> 01:05:36.059
And when they get the reprieve that, okay, you can come back the

1538
01:05:36.059 --> 01:05:38.280
following year, but we'll have the season, blah, blah, blah, blah.

1539
01:05:38.340 --> 01:05:41.099
They're given absolutely no direction as to what was actually

1540
01:05:41.099 --> 01:05:42.059
wrong with it.

1541
01:05:42.119 --> 01:05:43.739
And this is my big question.

1542
01:05:43.800 --> 01:05:45.719
Okay, so they thought the show had gone off the rails.

1543
01:05:45.780 --> 01:05:49.019
Where were they a year earlier when they were seeing playback

1544
01:05:49.019 --> 01:05:52.860
copies of the Awakening or the twin dilemma going, we don't want

1545
01:05:52.860 --> 01:05:53.219
this.

1546
01:05:53.280 --> 01:05:56.400
This is what we want. to their program makers.

1547
01:05:56.460 --> 01:05:59.099
When it's put on hiatus and it comes back.

1548
01:05:59.159 --> 01:06:02.340
Why does J&T come away with a nebulous idea that they want more

1549
01:06:02.340 --> 01:06:05.880
comedy rather than a detailed 3 hours long meeting?

1550
01:06:05.940 --> 01:06:07.260
Because they didn't give a damn.

1551
01:06:07.320 --> 01:06:11.099
Yeah, but that's professional malpractice.

1552
01:06:11.159 --> 01:06:15.599
But the reason they didn't give a damn was it was past its use by

1553
01:06:15.599 --> 01:06:15.960
date.

1554
01:06:16.019 --> 01:06:18.539
You know, like it wasn't important.

1555
01:06:18.599 --> 01:06:23.940
If it was well loved, then they wouldn't have pulled the plug, I

1556
01:06:23.940 --> 01:06:24.119
think.

1557
01:06:24.179 --> 01:06:28.679
Because they bring it back to get media and fans in some respects

1558
01:06:28.679 --> 01:06:29.699
media off their back.

1559
01:06:30.239 --> 01:06:32.519
Really, because they've realised they've created a public

1560
01:06:32.519 --> 01:06:34.199
relations disaster by cancelling the show.

1561
01:06:34.260 --> 01:06:35.639
And they brought it back as 14 episodes.

1562
01:06:35.699 --> 01:06:38.159
It's a drop in the ocean of their budget. to drop in the ocean of

1563
01:06:38.159 --> 01:06:40.559
their budget because it may be 14 episodes, but it's not like it's

1564
01:06:40.559 --> 01:06:42.480
basically, I think, still getting the same amount of money per

1565
01:06:42.480 --> 01:06:45.179
episode, which I think does improve in the back end of the McCoy

1566
01:06:45.179 --> 01:06:45.719
era, does it?

1567
01:06:45.780 --> 01:06:46.199
A little bit.

1568
01:06:46.260 --> 01:06:51.239
But point being, it doesn't receive, it's just a tokenistic

1569
01:06:51.239 --> 01:06:52.199
presence.

1570
01:06:52.260 --> 01:06:54.539
In fact, the show would have been so much better if it had come

1571
01:06:54.539 --> 01:06:55.679
back on BBC 2 or something.

1572
01:06:55.739 --> 01:06:56.219
You know what I mean?

1573
01:06:56.280 --> 01:06:58.380
Like, and then it could have just lived there, probably, and it

1574
01:06:58.380 --> 01:07:00.119
may have run through the 90s like that.

1575
01:07:22.380 --> 01:07:25.199
Well, that's all the time we have for this week.

1576
01:07:25.260 --> 01:07:29.460
We'll be back next week for another bimonthly meeting of the Cato

1577
01:07:29.460 --> 01:07:33.119
Mara Appreciation Society with Time and the Rani.

1578
01:07:33.179 --> 01:07:36.719
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts

1579
01:07:36.719 --> 01:07:40.559
and you can keep up with us on our website, 500yearDiary.com, where

1580
01:07:40.559 --> 01:07:43.380
you'll find our social media links, as well as links to all of our

1581
01:07:43.380 --> 01:07:47.460
other podcasts, including our other Doctor Who podcasts, Flight

1582
01:07:47.460 --> 01:07:50.699
through Entirety, and the 2nd grade and Bountiful Human Empire.

1583
01:07:51.119 --> 01:07:55.679
Until next time, could the mentor guiding the induction centre

1584
01:07:55.679 --> 01:07:59.820
please tuck in his neck flaps before HR gets involved?

1585
01:07:59.880 --> 01:08:02.460
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

1586
01:08:02.519 --> 01:08:03.659
Good night.

1587
01:08:03.719 --> 01:08:04.380
Good night.

1588
01:08:04.440 --> 01:08:04.920
Bye bye.

1589
01:08:15.480 --> 01:08:20.039
That was 500 year diary, starring Nathan Bottomley, Peter Griffith

1590
01:08:20.039 --> 01:08:21.539
Simon Moore, and Kate Orman.

1591
01:08:21.600 --> 01:08:23.939
The theme was composed by Cameron Lamm.

1592
01:08:24.000 --> 01:08:27.840
This episode, capturing and escaping, was recorded on the 6th of

1593
01:08:27.840 --> 01:08:30.659
April 2025, and released on the 8th of June.

1594
01:08:30.960 --> 01:08:34.680
With the current season of Doctor Who over, the flight through

1595
01:08:34.680 --> 01:08:38.220
entirety team has now discussed every episode of Doctor Who.

1596
01:08:38.340 --> 01:08:43.020
Doctors one to 12 on Flight Through Entirety, Dr. 13 on Jody

1597
01:08:43.020 --> 01:08:46.920
Interterterra, and doctors 14 and 15 on the 2nd great and

1598
01:08:46.920 --> 01:08:52.140
bountiful Human Empire, more than 13 days of Doctor Who content.

1599
01:08:52.260 --> 01:08:54.300
So you'd better get started right away.

1600
01:09:00.779 --> 01:09:03.720
I find it sort of curious, that's disappointing.

1601
01:09:03.779 --> 01:09:06.239
I mean, has it been established that they always intended to kill

1602
01:09:06.239 --> 01:09:08.399
Perry, and then they chickened out at the end?

1603
01:09:08.460 --> 01:09:09.119
Is that what happened?

1604
01:09:10.079 --> 01:09:12.479
Chickened out in ultimate foe.

1605
01:09:12.539 --> 01:09:17.760
From what I understand, J and T told Nicola at her leaving party

1606
01:09:17.760 --> 01:09:20.640
which was after the location of MindWarp, which was done after the

1607
01:09:20.640 --> 01:09:23.100
studio work, that Perry wasn't going to die.

1608
01:09:23.220 --> 01:09:25.859
So they'd already decided basically when they chot it.

1609
01:09:25.920 --> 01:09:30.060
Oh, that's an odd decision because if they're, it's, I mean, back

1610
01:09:30.060 --> 01:09:33.239
in the day when you had contract roulette, that's where people get

1611
01:09:33.239 --> 01:09:34.739
left on strange planets strangely.

1612
01:09:34.800 --> 01:09:35.460
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1613
01:09:35.460 --> 01:09:38.520
Whereas, it's weird, whereas Perry is not a five-minute

1614
01:09:38.520 --> 01:09:39.000
companion.

1615
01:09:39.060 --> 01:09:42.659
You know, Jane, he goes to the effort of creating an end story for

1616
01:09:42.659 --> 01:09:44.939
Turlow.

1617
01:09:45.000 --> 01:09:47.579
Adric at least gets a sort of proper death.

1618
01:09:47.640 --> 01:09:51.060
Nissa is sort of contract roulette, but at least it makes sense in

1619
01:09:51.060 --> 01:09:54.359
the context of her character that she can find out more about

1620
01:09:54.359 --> 01:09:55.800
telebiogenesis or whatever.

1621
01:09:56.039 --> 01:09:59.279
Bonnie is contract roulette roulette.

1622
01:09:59.399 --> 01:10:00.239
At the end of Dragon Fire.

1623
01:10:00.300 --> 01:10:01.380
Yes, that's true.

1624
01:10:01.439 --> 01:10:03.539
And so we've always regressed is what I'm saying.

1625
01:10:03.600 --> 01:10:05.819
Well, no, I think that this is contract roulette.

1626
01:10:05.880 --> 01:10:13.079
I think they, and I think too, it's super cynical because I don't

1627
01:10:13.079 --> 01:10:14.520
think you should kill the companions.

1628
01:10:14.579 --> 01:10:16.380
I don't think it ever works.

1629
01:10:16.439 --> 01:10:20.760
I think it's a bad idea for characters that we have grown to love

1630
01:10:20.760 --> 01:10:21.659
to be killed.

1631
01:10:21.720 --> 01:10:25.079
I don't think that it helps the drama because it's Doctor Who.

1632
01:10:25.140 --> 01:10:28.500
It's not like, ooh, maybe Perry or be killed this week.

1633
01:10:28.560 --> 01:10:30.239
Like, that's not how you're watching it.

1634
01:10:30.300 --> 01:10:31.199
You know.

1635
01:10:31.260 --> 01:10:33.899
So it doesn't add to the sort of precarity.

1636
01:10:33.960 --> 01:10:35.579
It doesn't make the doctor.

1637
01:10:35.640 --> 01:10:37.800
It's just cheap, you know.

1638
01:10:37.859 --> 01:10:39.359
And so you do this.

1639
01:10:39.479 --> 01:10:42.539
Like, you do it to Adric, and what happens?

1640
01:10:42.539 --> 01:10:43.199
As a one-off.

1641
01:10:43.260 --> 01:10:46.439
Yeah, 5 minutes later, Adric wouldn't want us to mourn.

1642
01:10:46.500 --> 01:10:48.720
Let's all go to the great exhibition.

1643
01:10:49.260 --> 01:10:52.319
But imagine if Ershock was the last episode of the season.

1644
01:10:52.380 --> 01:10:53.460
That would have been something.

1645
01:10:53.520 --> 01:10:55.979
Yeah, but then here, do you know what I mean?

1646
01:10:56.039 --> 01:10:59.340
Like we then have a recess so that we don't have to see the doctor

1647
01:10:59.340 --> 01:11:00.899
deal with the news at all.

1648
01:11:00.960 --> 01:11:05.279
He comes back and says something and now we have a new companion

1649
01:11:05.279 --> 01:11:06.899
as the valleyard.

1650
01:11:07.979 --> 01:11:09.359
That's right.

1651
01:11:09.420 --> 01:11:10.560
Yes, a bit better, isn't it?

1652
01:11:10.619 --> 01:11:13.140
And then we and then we walk it back anyway.

1653
01:11:13.199 --> 01:11:14.100
Do you know what I mean?

1654
01:11:14.159 --> 01:11:17.520
And give her a dumb ending, a dumb contract roulette ending, rather

1655
01:11:17.520 --> 01:11:21.659
than the kind of impressively terrifying ending that we got on

1656
01:11:21.659 --> 01:11:21.840
screen.

1657
01:11:21.899 --> 01:11:24.779
It just shows a whole lack of bravery on the part of the

1658
01:11:24.779 --> 01:11:26.460
production team and they want to deliver.

1659
01:11:26.520 --> 01:11:27.239
Yes, that's right.

1660
01:11:27.300 --> 01:11:30.479
They wanted to deliver this big shock and they do, but they also

1661
01:11:30.479 --> 01:11:33.539
want to walk it back and you think, oh, have the courage.

1662
01:11:33.600 --> 01:11:34.319
But how do you walk it back?

1663
01:11:34.380 --> 01:11:36.479
just because Linda Bellingham says it in one line at the very end

1664
01:11:36.479 --> 01:11:38.760
that this half of the people...

1665
01:11:38.760 --> 01:11:39.420
There's a flashback.

1666
01:11:39.479 --> 01:11:40.859
That's true.

1667
01:11:41.819 --> 01:11:43.199
Yeah.

1668
01:11:43.260 --> 01:11:46.020
No, I, like, I think it's terrible, but I think the whole idea is

1669
01:11:46.020 --> 01:11:46.800
misconceived.

1670
01:11:46.859 --> 01:11:47.520
You know what I mean?

1671
01:11:47.579 --> 01:11:50.520
And the way that you do it properly is when you have proper actors

1672
01:11:50.520 --> 01:11:54.359
and stuff and then you kill Clara and then you give Peter Capaldi

1673
01:11:54.359 --> 01:11:57.420
a whole episode in which to process that.

1674
01:11:57.479 --> 01:11:58.920
And that show.

1675
01:11:58.920 --> 01:12:00.659
That version of Doctor Who.

1676
01:12:00.720 --> 01:12:01.979
I haven't actually killed.

1677
01:12:02.039 --> 01:12:03.000
Exactly.

1678
01:12:03.000 --> 01:12:04.140
But we have.

1679
01:12:04.199 --> 01:12:04.800
She's dead.

1680
01:12:04.920 --> 01:12:06.060
We just go back and fast.

1681
01:12:06.119 --> 01:12:06.779
Well that's okay.

1682
01:12:06.840 --> 01:12:10.380
I get what you're saying, but actually that's what annoys me about

1683
01:12:10.380 --> 01:12:14.039
that thing is because it's Doctor Who's not about that sort of

1684
01:12:14.039 --> 01:12:14.340
thing.

1685
01:12:14.399 --> 01:12:16.859
Doctor Who's not about that sort of grieving and that sort of

1686
01:12:16.859 --> 01:12:20.340
processing of people's deaths because, you know, people get killed

1687
01:12:20.340 --> 01:12:20.819
all the time.

1688
01:12:20.880 --> 01:12:25.020
Like, I prefer the Pyramids of Mars thing where Sarah is grieving

1689
01:12:25.020 --> 01:12:26.220
the death of whoever it was.

1690
01:12:26.220 --> 01:12:28.560
And, um, and...

1691
01:12:28.560 --> 01:12:30.720
Oh, Dr. Lawrence. it's Lawrence Garman.

1692
01:12:30.779 --> 01:12:33.840
And she says, a man's just been killed and the doctor says 5 men

1693
01:12:33.840 --> 01:12:34.800
or whatever the number is.

1694
01:12:34.859 --> 01:12:35.640
Do you know what I mean?

1695
01:12:35.699 --> 01:12:36.720
That's kind of what you want.

1696
01:12:36.779 --> 01:12:39.899
So just think about instillary character, not the companion.

1697
01:12:39.960 --> 01:12:43.199
Think about the death of Scooty Minister in the...

1698
01:12:43.199 --> 01:12:46.380
We're probably well past what I'm going to broadcast.

1699
01:12:46.500 --> 01:12:50.460
Think about the death of Scooty Minister in the Impossible Planet

1700
01:12:50.460 --> 01:12:53.579
where she is just the 1st person to die and it's properly

1701
01:12:53.579 --> 01:12:55.439
affecting and everyone cares about it.

1702
01:12:55.560 --> 01:12:58.859
And I think that Doctor Who can do that and should do that.

1703
01:12:58.920 --> 01:13:04.560
And one of the things that it can do in the new series is because

1704
01:13:04.560 --> 01:13:07.739
generally speaking, we've got time, we're more character focussed

1705
01:13:07.739 --> 01:13:16.739
and let's say some of the actors are better, we can deal with that

1706
01:13:16.739 --> 01:13:17.159
grief.

1707
01:13:17.220 --> 01:13:20.100
But in this era, in the 80s, we're killing companions off and we

1708
01:13:20.100 --> 01:13:22.380
like, what's the point?

1709
01:13:22.439 --> 01:13:24.180
Well, it's a TV show.

1710
01:13:24.239 --> 01:13:28.020
Yeah, but it's like a cheap shock that doesn't really go

1711
01:13:28.020 --> 01:13:28.560
anywhere.

1712
01:13:28.619 --> 01:13:32.159
I think, well, look, I don't mind the cheap shock.

1713
01:13:32.279 --> 01:13:36.479
I think that's part of this genre of television as it existed in

1714
01:13:36.479 --> 01:13:37.140
this era.

1715
01:13:37.199 --> 01:13:41.039
And basically what you want is you want the that big moment where

1716
01:13:41.039 --> 01:13:44.159
like, I mean, the reason why the end credits run silently at the

1717
01:13:44.159 --> 01:13:46.199
end of the shock is because what it was Corey, that something like

1718
01:13:46.199 --> 01:13:47.760
that happened on crossroads, maybe?

1719
01:13:47.819 --> 01:13:49.680
Crossroads, something rubbish like that.

1720
01:13:49.739 --> 01:13:52.619
I mean, but the point is that it's it's what...

1721
01:13:52.619 --> 01:13:54.180
Doctor Who being that rubbish.

1722
01:13:54.239 --> 01:13:54.840
Exactly.

1723
01:13:54.899 --> 01:13:56.100
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1724
01:13:56.159 --> 01:13:58.560
And that's what that's what it kind of is.

1725
01:13:58.619 --> 01:13:59.279
Yes.

1726
01:14:00.420 --> 01:14:02.220
Let's end on that.

1727
01:14:02.279 --> 01:14:04.680
Doctor Who is kind of rubbish.