WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-05-03 at 08:43:18

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to 500 year diary.

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The only Doctor Who podcast that, given how unstable the current

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political situation is, is not to be unexpected.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Ikta.

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I'm Skibers, and I'm Tarpok.

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It's the 5th of January 1984.

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It's been just over 14 years since the doctor 1st ran into a

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Silurian in Derbyshire, and nearly 12 years since he 1st met a sea

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devil in BBC television centre Studio 8.

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And this evening, they've been plucked from the pages of the

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Doctor Who Monster book and sent out to attack Seabase 4.

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And the only question is, why?

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Let's see if we can work out the answer as we discuss Warriors of

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the Deep.

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So, I have to lay my card on the table.

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I really thought that this was astoundingly boring, and I don't

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think I thought that when I watched it for flight through

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entirety.

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And when I 1st watched it back in the day, I really, really liked

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it, but I'm afraid now, and particularly at this sort of point in

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recording this season of 500 year diary.

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There seems to me to be like a base under siege with anything

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interesting kind of accidentally omitted and enemies that are

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depressingly generic and horrifically poorly realised.

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Am I being unnecessarily cruel?

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There is no unnecessarily cruel.

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Only unnecessarily kind.

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I don't think it's boring.

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And I don't think it's as embarrassing as, say, time flight is.

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Again, I really liked it on its 1st transmission.

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And I think you touched on this in FTE, which is this was the 1st

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season that we knew the story titles in advance, thanks to the

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20th anniversary Radio Time special.

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And so there was one paragraph summary saying that this was like a

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set in 100 years in the future, study ins and sea devils, and that

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was basically it, Cold War analogy and so on.

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And I remember at the time, having not long watched 5 doctors, that

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this was a step up from season 20 in terms of the look.

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I thought it looked fantastic.

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The sets were all clangy and metallic.

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They were big with 2 levels.

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Everyone looked fabulous with great hair and makeup, and there

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were sea devils and salurians in it.

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I was completely on board with this.

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I was even on board with this in the 86, 87 omnibus repeat on a

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Saturday afternoon where I...

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When a whole 5 years, I felt like 50 years old then when I'd 1st

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seen it.

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But no, I really enjoyed it.

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And I actually was really surprised watching it now.

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It's not a story that I return to very often.

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How much I actually enjoyed it.

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I'm going to say that I think there's actually, it's important to

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note there's a lot to recommend this story.

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I don't think it succeeds.

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I don't think it's a very good story at all, really, but there is

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a lot that is actually good about it.

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James had sought more money from BBC Enterprises.

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He'd sought a budget injection from them because Doctor Who was

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selling so well overseas.

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And I think this 1st story where he gets that budget injection and

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I think it shows on screen.

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I think the set for this story might be the best realised set in

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all of classic Doctor Who.

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Mattress doors, notwithstanding. execution, but actually the

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backdrop and how they put the set together looks incredibly

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impressive.

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I liked this at the time.

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Similar to Simon, the Radio Times 20th anniversary, getting that

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blurb in there knowing what was happening and so excited for it, as

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well as it's the year that Simon and I met at school.

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It is too.

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And so it actually... form a Silurian triad.

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I think there were more than 2 Doctor Who fans.

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Thank you, Peter.

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So this whole season, and that means a lot to me.

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And so I carried that emotion when I watched this story.

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And I actually, well, coming back to it, I think the urgency in

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Peter Davis's performance here, this is where he really steps up, I

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think is the doctor.

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You know, if he had this season and this performance.

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If I just judge him on that alone, he'd be up there as one of my

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favourite doctors based on that.

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I do think that his performance is really great this season, yeah.

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And that's what gets me through this story in particular, but just

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having the Silurians and Cedar was back, I thought, was

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magnificent, and I still really enjoy it now, except I do see its

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fault.

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The slow moving villains and they're talking.

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It was just...

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Let's get on to that.

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It was just...

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I think Davidson knows when a script is poor.

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He's, you know, he's instinctively, he knows when things are going

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wrong in the production.

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He seems to step it up when he thinks that he has to, just kind of

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plug the gaps.

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And so there's an extra urgency and kind of grimness to his

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performance here that the script doesn't really merit.

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I agree with you about the look.

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That was what struck me most of all the 1st time through, and I

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had enjoyed Space 1999, which also has a sort of fairly big set.

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Words never heard before.

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Really?

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I mean, space 1999 has a much more expensive and lavish and huge

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set than this, but it did have the 2 levels.

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And so I was kind of reminded of Maine Mission a little bit by the

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bridge.

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Of course, the Johnny Byrne connection being the script.

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I destroyed the 1st season of Space 1999.

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And I don't know if this story is apocryphal or not, but

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apparently he walked onto the set of Warriors in the deep and said

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this all looks much better than it did last time. meaning Space

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1999.

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Yeah, it doesn't.

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But, I mean, it does...

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I think it helps it on films.

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Yeah, but it is a much bigger and much more beautiful and

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expensive set.

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This one does wobble from time to time, particularly whatever it

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is that they erect on location over the swimming pool, looks great

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and he's very consistent with the rest of the set, but it wobbles

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horribly during the action.

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I think the set looks great.

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I particularly like all the labels everywhere.

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You know, like there's just a little label saying, you know, keep

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this door closed, stuff like that.

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Lakelord Nilson that says villain.

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That's tattooed on his forehead.

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So it seems very real.

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I really like that a great deal. and I don't even object so much

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to the fact that it's well lit.

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I do think there is a problem with it not looking at all in any

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way, like it's underwater.

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And that's something, for instance, that under the lake before the

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flood gets right, that that's a building, you can't really see out

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the windows and stuff, but you're never in any doubt that it's

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anywhere other than underwater.

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But can I just say, I don't think that that's because of the sets

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or the lighting.

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I think it's because of the soundscape.

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They've done more at the soundscape to make it seem like it was in

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this metal clanging interior under the water than you would have

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bought it more.

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You can argue that it's no different to a space station.

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Sometimes they're gleaming white and beautiful like that, and

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other times they're dark and dingy and you worry that the oxygen's

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going to leak out.

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But I think that if it's underwater, let's sell it as being

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underwater.

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Make that visible in all of the scenes.

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I think that's a problem.

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And yet on the Silurian craft, I buy that.

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Yes.

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That's underwater.

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Absolutely.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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There's that sort of strange screen off in the distance that seems

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to have sort of odd water patterns projected onto it or something

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like that.

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So I do buy that.

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I think that that is better.

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I think that's a bad set, but I still think that it does seem

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underwater.

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But why do the cellarines need to be underwater?

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Like, that's my big question.

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It's sort of like they were not underwater the 1st time.

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They were just in the caves.

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Would you know 1st Silurians that don't bathe?

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But if tiles tend not to.

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But it's sort of like we've just latched onto the fact that the

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sea devils were, their base was underwater and they could come

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up.

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And so now the cellarians just suddenly are underwater and they

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have a craft that the doctor recognises and you're just going to

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go...

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They have to be underwater to wake the sea devils up.

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But where do they come?

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Why are they suddenly awake?

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Well, exactly.

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Let's unpick this.

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Originally, it was only meant to be the sea devils.

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But for some reason, they insisted, let's bring back the Silurians

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as well and make them the sea devils leaders and commanders.

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And so it doesn't really make sense in the plot.

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And in fact, you can see the hasty realisation that they've done

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something wrong in that line, which says that hexachromite is

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lethal to reptiles, who we're suddenly mentioning here for no

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reason and marine life, all marine life, but also reptiles, okay

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just so that the ending works.

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Like, that's a problem.

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But I think that there's a real problem in the Silurians and the

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sea devils seem to be here because they're recurring Doctor Who

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monsters, and they're not in any sense being reintroduced to a new

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audience at all.

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And the most visible sign of that is there they are in long shot

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at 2 minutes into the episode, having an incredibly boring

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conversation where they just stand around.

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Yeah.

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So where's our episode one reveal?

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Like, that's essentially it.

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Where's our giant end of episode one reveal?

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We're in a base under siege.

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Why are we not concentrating on their experience as things like

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their probe gets destroyed.

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There's something going on outside in the water.

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And then we learn about the cellular integration.

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Which all gets kind of halfway there.

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It's kind of tense.

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It's just taking it from the wrong angle.

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Yeah.

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I think that this is where JNT is suffering from the success of

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Earthshock, and there's a cyberman, but also the, I don't know

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whether it's faded by this point, but the influence of Ian

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Levine.

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No, I think it's full steam right.

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It's full steam right now.

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And much as I love this season and season 22.

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I recognise that the show is starting to eat its own young in

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relying too heavily on past things.

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Because of this, things like the 5 faces repeats and the monsters

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repeats and all the 1000000s of clips that they would have had on

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all the chat shows during the 20th anniversary.

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I think the history of Doctor Who has gone to their head.

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And so they've decided that the sea devils in Saudi Ureans, even

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though they only appeared in one story each a decade ago, that

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everyone will know who they are.

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Can I just suggest what a much better version of Warriors of the

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Deep would be?

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And I...

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One not directed by Pennant Roberts.

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Yes.

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That, who you praise in the FTE.

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Exactly what you're saying.

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Yeah, yeah. what you were all thinking.

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One develops with age, honestly.

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Revenge of the Sidement, which I know is a maligned story, does it

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so much better.

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As you're saying, where's this reveal?

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What you should have is you have all of the intrigue of the other

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power block opposed to this one on the base, and you think that's

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what it's going to be about, and there's spies, and maybe there is

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even another character who is working with this outside force.

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You know, the Dr. Quinn figure, the master in the sea devils.

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And then at the end of episode two, not one, but 2 is where

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suddenly out of nowhere, there's this submarine that arrives, docks

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and there they all are, the side of your ins and sea.

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Or even better at the end of episode two, Dr. Solo rips off her

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mask.

251
00:11:43.860 --> 00:11:45.720
Salvix.

252
00:11:45.779 --> 00:11:48.360
But I want to touch.

253
00:11:48.419 --> 00:11:51.360
I want to go back to what you're saying about JNT and Eric

254
00:11:51.360 --> 00:11:51.960
Saywood.

255
00:11:52.019 --> 00:11:53.279
There is a pattern occurring here.

256
00:11:53.340 --> 00:11:57.059
Like in season 19, we had the master back in the 1st story

257
00:11:57.059 --> 00:11:59.580
reimagined as a literal master of disguise.

258
00:11:59.639 --> 00:12:04.200
In season 20, suddenly we've got Omega in there and he's not quite

259
00:12:04.200 --> 00:12:04.740
as he was.

260
00:12:04.799 --> 00:12:06.899
He's now got a TARDIS, he's got the ergon here.

261
00:12:06.960 --> 00:12:10.799
We've got the sea devils and saloons redesigned, and we've now got

262
00:12:10.799 --> 00:12:13.500
the extra element of the murka without really thinking about it.

263
00:12:13.559 --> 00:12:16.259
Next year, we're going to have redesigns of the cyber control of

264
00:12:16.259 --> 00:12:16.919
the cyber tombs.

265
00:12:17.039 --> 00:12:18.179
We going to throw in the crayons.

266
00:12:18.240 --> 00:12:20.159
And there's this pattern that just keeps going on.

267
00:12:20.220 --> 00:12:22.740
And as you said, there doesn't seem to be any rhymeal reason for

268
00:12:22.740 --> 00:12:25.139
it, we're just going to use them because they were something from

269
00:12:25.139 --> 00:12:25.500
the past.

270
00:12:25.559 --> 00:12:28.679
But you see, I don't mind having like the murka or adding the

271
00:12:28.679 --> 00:12:29.340
crimes word.

272
00:12:29.399 --> 00:12:32.039
That is trying to do something, can build on the monster that you

273
00:12:32.039 --> 00:12:32.639
have.

274
00:12:32.759 --> 00:12:35.879
The problem is that JNT, I think, takes the wrong lessons from

275
00:12:35.879 --> 00:12:36.600
Earthshock.

276
00:12:36.659 --> 00:12:40.440
Earthshock does build the reveal of the cybermen very well. and

277
00:12:40.440 --> 00:12:43.679
makes it exciting for a general public audience because sidemen

278
00:12:43.679 --> 00:12:44.700
are front and centre.

279
00:12:44.759 --> 00:12:48.960
The wrong model is the Arc of Infinity, which is, you know

280
00:12:48.960 --> 00:12:49.860
bringing Omega back.

281
00:12:49.919 --> 00:12:52.259
Okay, it's the 20th anniversary, and he was in the 10th

282
00:12:52.259 --> 00:12:52.799
anniversary.

283
00:12:52.860 --> 00:12:55.740
Okay, that's a line that you feed to the doctoral appreciation

284
00:12:55.740 --> 00:12:56.159
society.

285
00:12:56.220 --> 00:12:58.980
That's a headline for the Duas newsletter.

286
00:12:59.039 --> 00:13:01.740
It's not for the general public who go, who's Omega?

287
00:13:01.799 --> 00:13:02.159
Yeah.

288
00:13:02.220 --> 00:13:05.639
I mean, they might have seen a repeat 18 months ago, who knows?

289
00:13:05.700 --> 00:13:07.620
6000000 people did, but still.

290
00:13:07.679 --> 00:13:12.059
And the problem here is, you know, if we take the model of current

291
00:13:12.059 --> 00:13:15.840
Doctor Who, which brings back old monsters 2 or 3 times a season

292
00:13:15.840 --> 00:13:18.360
without any problem at all, it's quite fine.

293
00:13:18.419 --> 00:13:21.360
What you have to do is bring them back in an appropriate way and

294
00:13:21.360 --> 00:13:23.759
reveal them inappropriate way for an audience that may not know

295
00:13:23.759 --> 00:13:24.000
them.

296
00:13:24.059 --> 00:13:28.080
So, if you just bring back the Silurians and the sea devils and

297
00:13:28.080 --> 00:13:30.120
plot them on screen and say, oh, look, it's the Silurians and the

298
00:13:30.120 --> 00:13:32.700
sea devils, no one knows what you're talking about, and no one

299
00:13:32.700 --> 00:13:35.039
cares, particularly because you've stripped away anything that

300
00:13:35.039 --> 00:13:38.220
made them kind of special and stand in the 1st place.

301
00:13:38.340 --> 00:13:43.980
I think J and T needed to bring back old monsters and develop them

302
00:13:43.980 --> 00:13:47.639
and do something new with them rather than just say, look, we've

303
00:13:47.639 --> 00:13:48.059
brought them back.

304
00:13:48.419 --> 00:13:51.419
I mean, this starts, doesn't it?

305
00:13:51.480 --> 00:13:53.759
Perhaps with the sea devils.

306
00:13:53.820 --> 00:13:57.419
There's sort of 2 years, isn't there, between the Siderians and

307
00:13:57.419 --> 00:13:58.200
the sea devils?

308
00:13:58.259 --> 00:14:02.399
And when the sea devils are brought back, they are suddenly much

309
00:14:02.399 --> 00:14:04.980
more generic than the Silurians were.

310
00:14:05.039 --> 00:14:08.039
So they have the same backstory as the Silurians.

311
00:14:08.100 --> 00:14:11.639
They're a race of people who have as much claim to the planet as

312
00:14:11.639 --> 00:14:12.539
we do.

313
00:14:12.600 --> 00:14:14.940
And the Silurians does all of those things.

314
00:14:15.120 --> 00:14:19.620
Maybe even halfway through the Silurians, it probably goes down.

315
00:14:19.679 --> 00:14:22.559
You know, the Sillyrians have interesting things to say about

316
00:14:22.559 --> 00:14:25.740
colonialism and immigration and indigenity.

317
00:14:25.799 --> 00:14:29.820
They produce a new type of Doctor Who story, which isn't just

318
00:14:29.820 --> 00:14:33.179
aliens invade or weird things happen on another planet.

319
00:14:33.240 --> 00:14:35.820
Like it's a properly interesting premise.

320
00:14:35.879 --> 00:14:37.559
It's Malcolm Holk, isn't it?

321
00:14:37.620 --> 00:14:39.000
invaders or homegrown menace.

322
00:14:39.059 --> 00:14:39.960
Yeah, that's it.

323
00:14:40.019 --> 00:14:40.440
That's it.

324
00:14:40.500 --> 00:14:41.879
But they've got characters.

325
00:14:41.940 --> 00:14:45.120
There's different Silurians arguing about what's going on.

326
00:14:45.179 --> 00:14:45.539
Yes.

327
00:14:45.539 --> 00:14:47.820
Whereas the sea devils, you got the one leader and the rest of

328
00:14:47.820 --> 00:14:51.480
them just seem to be warriors, which we've just sort of taken on

329
00:14:51.480 --> 00:14:51.899
board here.

330
00:14:51.960 --> 00:14:54.960
Yeah, and in the sea devils, of course, the master is there

331
00:14:54.960 --> 00:14:57.779
manipulating them, and perhaps the most fun about the sea devils

332
00:14:57.779 --> 00:15:01.379
comes from, you know, enjoying the master after his few stories

333
00:15:01.379 --> 00:15:02.100
off.

334
00:15:02.639 --> 00:15:08.820
So already in their sort of 2nd appearance, they're a bit more

335
00:15:08.820 --> 00:15:11.700
generic and a bit less interesting here.

336
00:15:11.759 --> 00:15:14.820
I mean, they're very much here for revenge.

337
00:15:14.879 --> 00:15:16.620
It's almost like the moon base.

338
00:15:16.679 --> 00:15:19.860
You know, the cybermen come back to eliminate threats or something

339
00:15:19.860 --> 00:15:21.899
the next time round.

340
00:15:21.960 --> 00:15:24.059
They're here to eliminate threats or something.

341
00:15:24.120 --> 00:15:29.879
But nothing really very much about them as having a valid and

342
00:15:29.879 --> 00:15:33.179
competing claim to the planet is here.

343
00:15:33.240 --> 00:15:37.860
They could be interchanged with any sort of monster, I think, and

344
00:15:37.860 --> 00:15:40.620
we've talked about that before because like, even in the sea

345
00:15:40.620 --> 00:15:43.200
devils, there was action and they had their little guns, but they

346
00:15:43.200 --> 00:15:44.879
moved, not slowly.

347
00:15:44.940 --> 00:15:45.419
Yes.

348
00:15:45.419 --> 00:15:48.179
Whereas here it's just like, and they can't even fire, like just

349
00:15:48.179 --> 00:15:48.779
at the wall.

350
00:15:48.840 --> 00:15:51.600
Like, I mean, it's just those battle sequences.

351
00:15:51.659 --> 00:15:52.799
I just...

352
00:15:52.799 --> 00:15:53.940
But even in the sea devils.

353
00:15:54.000 --> 00:15:56.519
The idea of them being, once the rulers are here.

354
00:15:56.580 --> 00:15:57.840
Yes, it's kind of fine.

355
00:15:57.899 --> 00:16:00.600
It's given lip service, but that's about all, it's given even less

356
00:16:00.600 --> 00:16:04.259
lip service in this story, I think. can I just say in the sea

357
00:16:04.259 --> 00:16:04.620
devil?

358
00:16:04.679 --> 00:16:07.080
So really, you think they were probably aiming for a return for

359
00:16:07.080 --> 00:16:09.779
the Silurians, but then they decide they were going to set it in

360
00:16:09.779 --> 00:16:10.740
the sea?

361
00:16:10.799 --> 00:16:12.840
And so they said, let's make it an aquatic cousin of the

362
00:16:12.840 --> 00:16:13.440
Silurians.

363
00:16:13.500 --> 00:16:13.980
I think that's good.

364
00:16:14.039 --> 00:16:14.460
That's fine.

365
00:16:14.519 --> 00:16:17.159
You know, it's introducing a new race which is basically telling

366
00:16:17.159 --> 00:16:17.820
the same story.

367
00:16:17.879 --> 00:16:21.059
Another thing that they get wrong with bringing back monsters in

368
00:16:21.059 --> 00:16:24.120
the 80s is that they bring them back divorced from everything that

369
00:16:24.120 --> 00:16:27.000
made them special, divorced from all of their trappings.

370
00:16:27.059 --> 00:16:28.080
It's not just the 80s, though.

371
00:16:28.139 --> 00:16:28.799
It's all the way through.

372
00:16:28.860 --> 00:16:29.820
No, not really.

373
00:16:29.879 --> 00:16:32.519
The 80s is the problem because, okay, let's bring back the

374
00:16:32.519 --> 00:16:33.179
brigadier.

375
00:16:33.240 --> 00:16:36.240
You can't just bring that the brigadier and pop him in an 80s

376
00:16:36.240 --> 00:16:36.600
story.

377
00:16:36.659 --> 00:16:37.500
It doesn't really work.

378
00:16:37.559 --> 00:16:40.679
You need to bring back the brigadier surrounded by the trappings

379
00:16:40.679 --> 00:16:44.940
of units in a 70s style story that makes that nostalgia reel.

380
00:16:45.000 --> 00:16:48.299
Which is what Modern Undead gets wrong and Battlefield gets

381
00:16:48.299 --> 00:16:48.659
right.

382
00:16:48.720 --> 00:16:49.320
Correct.

383
00:16:49.379 --> 00:16:50.159
Absolutely.

384
00:16:50.220 --> 00:16:54.659
And so here you needed a Silurian slash sea devil's style story.

385
00:16:54.720 --> 00:16:57.899
You needed them coming out of the waves or out of the caves.

386
00:16:57.960 --> 00:17:01.919
You didn't need them walking slowly down a white futuristic

387
00:17:01.919 --> 00:17:02.399
corridor.

388
00:17:02.460 --> 00:17:04.559
That's taking them away from anything that made them work.

389
00:17:04.680 --> 00:17:10.680
And in fact, what does get it right is the two-parter in series

390
00:17:10.680 --> 00:17:14.940
five, which brings them back to an audience that's never seen them

391
00:17:14.940 --> 00:17:18.599
before and is aware that the audience has never seen them before

392
00:17:18.599 --> 00:17:21.119
that it shows them underground.

393
00:17:21.180 --> 00:17:25.200
It shows them reviving, it gives us a sense of their society.

394
00:17:25.259 --> 00:17:30.000
And then it makes the whole story B about how we're going to

395
00:17:30.000 --> 00:17:32.579
respond to their competing claims to the planet.

396
00:17:32.640 --> 00:17:35.519
And like, I think that has all sorts of flaws, and I think it

397
00:17:35.519 --> 00:17:39.599
flubs the ending in a really kind of depressingly unimaginative

398
00:17:39.599 --> 00:17:40.079
way.

399
00:17:40.140 --> 00:17:44.640
But on the way there, I think it creates great characters among

400
00:17:44.640 --> 00:17:45.839
the Silurians.

401
00:17:45.900 --> 00:17:49.380
You get to see them living underground in the spaces that they

402
00:17:49.380 --> 00:17:50.519
live in.

403
00:17:50.579 --> 00:17:56.039
They're all introduced to us properly and gradually as well.

404
00:17:56.099 --> 00:18:00.299
Whereas here, they're just introduced in kind of broad daylight.

405
00:18:00.359 --> 00:18:03.059
We're all somehow expected to know and care who they are.

406
00:18:03.119 --> 00:18:07.140
And they are given the names, but that's all they're given.

407
00:18:07.200 --> 00:18:08.099
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

408
00:18:18.180 --> 00:18:21.420
Just expanding what you were saying, Peter, about, you know, taking

409
00:18:21.420 --> 00:18:22.140
the trappings away.

410
00:18:22.200 --> 00:18:23.339
I actually think it's right.

411
00:18:23.400 --> 00:18:25.440
I thought one of the things that we kind of settled on is that

412
00:18:25.440 --> 00:18:30.059
when the returning monster is more successful is you do something

413
00:18:30.059 --> 00:18:32.279
different with them, for instance, like Curse of Peladonio.

414
00:18:32.339 --> 00:18:34.259
Seeds of Death, they could be anything but Curse of Peladon.

415
00:18:34.319 --> 00:18:36.059
You do something different with the ice Warriors, for instance.

416
00:18:36.119 --> 00:18:39.420
So I actually don't have as much of a problem with the Brigadier

417
00:18:39.420 --> 00:18:41.460
and Morton and it as you do because I think that's interesting

418
00:18:41.460 --> 00:18:42.059
it's doing something different.

419
00:18:42.119 --> 00:18:44.700
What I will say is what's missing from this.

420
00:18:44.759 --> 00:18:48.660
It's not a matter of them coming out of in caves or having, you

421
00:18:48.660 --> 00:18:50.400
know, stepping out out of the surf.

422
00:18:50.460 --> 00:18:54.119
It's a matter of having what you're sort of saying, Nathan, more

423
00:18:54.119 --> 00:18:57.660
of a discussion and a sympathetic discussion of the fact that this

424
00:18:57.660 --> 00:19:01.380
race of beings are native to this planet and have a right to be

425
00:19:01.380 --> 00:19:01.980
here as well.

426
00:19:02.039 --> 00:19:05.519
And there's absolutely no discussion of that at all in Warriors of

427
00:19:05.519 --> 00:19:05.819
the Deep.

428
00:19:05.880 --> 00:19:07.140
I mean, there is a little bit actually.

429
00:19:07.200 --> 00:19:09.960
No, there's no, no, it's just the fact that the doctor says it.

430
00:19:10.019 --> 00:19:10.799
Well yes.

431
00:19:10.859 --> 00:19:12.420
Yes, but the point is there's no discussion of it.

432
00:19:12.480 --> 00:19:16.559
There's no, you know, the Siderians are presented as, as basically

433
00:19:16.559 --> 00:19:17.400
they're just villains.

434
00:19:17.460 --> 00:19:20.460
They're here to annihilate the human population of the earth by

435
00:19:20.460 --> 00:19:21.720
creating a nuclear war.

436
00:19:21.779 --> 00:19:25.319
There's no sympathetic character on the cellular inside, which

437
00:19:25.319 --> 00:19:26.880
there is in the animal stories.

438
00:19:26.940 --> 00:19:31.740
So you need to have differences between what you do in the Gypnol

439
00:19:31.740 --> 00:19:32.940
2 parts or in series five.

440
00:19:33.059 --> 00:19:34.559
That's what's missing from this.

441
00:19:34.619 --> 00:19:36.180
And that's what I was wanting.

442
00:19:36.299 --> 00:19:40.799
I was wanting the Dr. Quinn type figure to be already in contact

443
00:19:40.799 --> 00:19:43.619
with the cellurians in advance of the story.

444
00:19:43.619 --> 00:19:47.279
And that sort of is what leads the side of your engine.

445
00:19:47.339 --> 00:19:49.859
Almost like having Dr. Sol hours a double- double agent.

446
00:19:49.920 --> 00:19:52.619
I think she's helping Nilson, but he's actually on the Silurian

447
00:19:52.619 --> 00:19:52.859
side.

448
00:19:52.920 --> 00:19:53.519
Exactly.

449
00:19:53.579 --> 00:19:54.539
Well, that kind of thing.

450
00:19:54.599 --> 00:19:55.859
Maybe that maybe it's...

451
00:19:55.859 --> 00:19:56.940
She could have been a marine biologist.

452
00:19:57.000 --> 00:19:59.339
Maybe it's what she's faced from Mission to Destiny who has that

453
00:19:59.339 --> 00:20:00.119
role. don't know.

454
00:20:03.359 --> 00:20:05.220
But you know what I mean?

455
00:20:05.279 --> 00:20:06.119
That's what's missing.

456
00:20:06.180 --> 00:20:08.220
And that's why the unfortunate thing.

457
00:20:08.279 --> 00:20:11.400
One of the unfortunate things about this story is it's one

458
00:20:11.400 --> 00:20:12.240
dimensionality.

459
00:20:12.299 --> 00:20:14.759
Yes, I think that's that's its biggest crime.

460
00:20:14.819 --> 00:20:18.240
And there's something also in the presentation as well.

461
00:20:18.299 --> 00:20:22.500
There was kind of a cheap and cheerfulness to the Silurian and the

462
00:20:22.500 --> 00:20:24.119
sea devil costumes the 1st time round.

463
00:20:24.180 --> 00:20:26.039
It's like they didn't look very good in the sea devils.

464
00:20:26.099 --> 00:20:27.779
Let's just wrap some fish netting around them.

465
00:20:27.779 --> 00:20:29.400
And suddenly that's an iconic image.

466
00:20:29.460 --> 00:20:34.259
Whereas now you seem to have this collision between reality and

467
00:20:34.259 --> 00:20:37.680
the fiction where they're trying to make the masks and the

468
00:20:37.680 --> 00:20:40.559
costumes more elaborate and more detailed.

469
00:20:40.619 --> 00:20:45.000
And yet that is hamstrung what we're seeing on screen because now

470
00:20:45.000 --> 00:20:46.619
they have to move very slowly.

471
00:20:46.680 --> 00:20:50.579
They can't get the costumes ready in studio and so you have, you

472
00:20:50.579 --> 00:20:53.339
know, the sea devil hats at angles and things, you know, off the

473
00:20:53.339 --> 00:20:53.640
heads.

474
00:20:53.700 --> 00:20:57.240
And so they've reached this wall where they can't actually make

475
00:20:57.240 --> 00:21:00.900
something that looked good in the 70s look good in the 80s.

476
00:21:00.960 --> 00:21:03.720
I agree with you because, like, I mean, when you actually see

477
00:21:03.720 --> 00:21:07.980
Salvex speaking, like, it's obvious that the actor's head is in

478
00:21:07.980 --> 00:21:09.359
the neck, you know what I mean?

479
00:21:09.420 --> 00:21:11.099
Like, it's so shoddy.

480
00:21:11.099 --> 00:21:13.980
And the Silurians, like, they've done all that fibreglass stuff.

481
00:21:14.039 --> 00:21:16.319
But when they're walking down that corridor, you see every join

482
00:21:16.319 --> 00:21:19.259
around like, and you can hear them creaking.

483
00:21:19.259 --> 00:21:21.720
And you're just there going, like, the original ones weren't great

484
00:21:21.720 --> 00:21:25.259
in their suits, but my goodness, like, they look worse every

485
00:21:25.259 --> 00:21:26.039
single episode.

486
00:21:26.400 --> 00:21:34.380
I think that the Silurian costumes are well thought out.

487
00:21:34.440 --> 00:21:39.779
They look good in a photo, say, on the cover of Matt Irvine's

488
00:21:39.779 --> 00:21:40.079
book.

489
00:21:40.140 --> 00:21:42.240
So in 1985.

490
00:21:42.420 --> 00:21:46.799
So the original ones, the original ones, which we love, obviously

491
00:21:46.799 --> 00:21:52.019
have a very real sense of being moulded out of 2 halves, and you

492
00:21:52.019 --> 00:21:56.640
can see the joy like that goes across their head, you know, at the

493
00:21:56.640 --> 00:21:59.819
midpoint. and the back of the heads are really undetailed and

494
00:21:59.819 --> 00:22:00.119
stuff.

495
00:22:00.180 --> 00:22:04.859
But what this has done is it's retained that sort of iconic 5

496
00:22:04.859 --> 00:22:07.380
ridges with the central thing.

497
00:22:07.440 --> 00:22:09.000
I think it looks really good.

498
00:22:09.059 --> 00:22:10.319
The scales look really good.

499
00:22:10.440 --> 00:22:10.980
All of that.

500
00:22:11.039 --> 00:22:12.720
I don't know why it's not green.

501
00:22:12.779 --> 00:22:17.460
I don't know why it has to be this pale tan colour, but I think

502
00:22:17.460 --> 00:22:18.779
that that actually looks good.

503
00:22:18.839 --> 00:22:20.819
I think giving them clothes works as well.

504
00:22:20.940 --> 00:22:24.900
Remember the original silureans had that long thing that goes down

505
00:22:24.900 --> 00:22:28.799
the front that's designed to hide the zipper in the costume.

506
00:22:28.859 --> 00:22:31.079
Like they've got a, they've got a sort of thing around their

507
00:22:31.079 --> 00:22:31.380
neck.

508
00:22:31.440 --> 00:22:34.680
All of the sort of joins and stuff in the original salurines don't

509
00:22:34.680 --> 00:22:35.099
really work.

510
00:22:35.099 --> 00:22:39.240
So I think it's an iconic design that doesn't work in the 70s.

511
00:22:39.420 --> 00:22:43.980
And I think the redesign here is quite good, except that they do

512
00:22:43.980 --> 00:22:45.960
it so ham fistedly.

513
00:22:46.019 --> 00:22:49.799
So they don't tuck their necks into the costume. what I was

514
00:22:49.799 --> 00:22:49.980
saying.

515
00:22:50.039 --> 00:22:51.779
They don't take necks in like, no.

516
00:22:51.779 --> 00:22:53.759
Like, all of that stuff individually looks great.

517
00:22:53.819 --> 00:22:57.180
And you put it together and there's the gap between the chest

518
00:22:57.180 --> 00:23:00.539
plate and the neck and you see it walking down the corridor and

519
00:23:00.539 --> 00:23:02.819
you're going, 0 my goodness, that one's knocked tucked in.

520
00:23:02.880 --> 00:23:03.779
That one here.

521
00:23:03.839 --> 00:23:06.059
It's like, do we only have 5 minutes to prepare?

522
00:23:06.119 --> 00:23:06.720
for this episode.

523
00:23:06.779 --> 00:23:07.559
Apparently so.

524
00:23:07.619 --> 00:23:09.539
Yeah, it's really ham feasted.

525
00:23:09.599 --> 00:23:12.539
And you're right about the sea devils as well because, you know

526
00:23:12.539 --> 00:23:17.400
when the sea devils emerge from the sea in that iconic scene, It

527
00:23:17.400 --> 00:23:20.640
is very clearly a bunch of people with turtle heads on the tops of

528
00:23:20.640 --> 00:23:21.119
their hats.

529
00:23:21.180 --> 00:23:22.140
Do you know what I mean?

530
00:23:22.200 --> 00:23:23.099
Like, you're never in any doubt.

531
00:23:23.339 --> 00:23:27.299
But you're never in any doubt where the actors' heads are and

532
00:23:27.299 --> 00:23:29.640
there's turtle heads on top of them, you know.

533
00:23:29.700 --> 00:23:32.099
And they loll about a little bit as well.

534
00:23:32.160 --> 00:23:33.180
I have to say.

535
00:23:33.240 --> 00:23:35.880
But there are whole seats, and they move quickly.

536
00:23:35.880 --> 00:23:38.819
So you can kind of buy them as real creatures.

537
00:23:38.880 --> 00:23:41.099
It helps with kind of the credibility as a whole.

538
00:23:41.160 --> 00:23:46.140
Whereas here when they're just moving so slowly and sort of

539
00:23:46.140 --> 00:23:47.519
turning slowly to each other.

540
00:23:47.579 --> 00:23:49.319
It drags everything to a full stop.

541
00:23:49.380 --> 00:23:51.539
There are heads falling off.

542
00:23:51.599 --> 00:23:57.180
There's one scene towards the end where the main guy, Ikta, is

543
00:23:57.180 --> 00:23:57.539
there.

544
00:23:59.339 --> 00:24:03.539
Where Ignar is there and he's giving a big speech and behind him

545
00:24:03.539 --> 00:24:08.279
is a sea devil guard, whose head is virtually falling off.

546
00:24:08.339 --> 00:24:11.880
And I think the cameraman actually moves in order to make sure

547
00:24:11.880 --> 00:24:17.880
that Ictor is occluding our view of the sea devil whose head is

548
00:24:17.880 --> 00:24:19.259
falling off.

549
00:24:19.319 --> 00:24:20.160
And, like, the whole...

550
00:24:20.160 --> 00:24:23.640
Pendent up in the gallery, saying camera 5 to the left...

551
00:24:23.700 --> 00:24:25.680
Like, they're really bad.

552
00:24:25.740 --> 00:24:29.279
And, you know, the impression of the actors' heads being below the

553
00:24:29.279 --> 00:24:33.059
sea devil's heads is given by the fact that there's those dots and

554
00:24:33.059 --> 00:24:34.259
the little holes in the neck.

555
00:24:34.380 --> 00:24:36.359
So they can see and breathe.

556
00:24:36.480 --> 00:24:37.319
Yeah, yeah.

557
00:24:37.319 --> 00:24:40.799
Like they're really, really astoundingly inept.

558
00:24:40.859 --> 00:24:42.660
Okay, but we know why, don't we?

559
00:24:42.720 --> 00:24:46.559
We were rushed for time for some reason and Pennant Roberts.

560
00:24:46.619 --> 00:24:47.880
Wasn't the general election or something?

561
00:24:48.000 --> 00:24:50.220
They didn't have enough studio. a little bit of background on

562
00:24:50.220 --> 00:24:50.400
this.

563
00:24:50.460 --> 00:24:52.380
The general election was called from 1983.

564
00:24:52.500 --> 00:24:55.319
It was snap election, and so they needed to free up studio space.

565
00:24:55.380 --> 00:24:57.960
And so the only thing they could do rather than actually lose

566
00:24:57.960 --> 00:25:01.859
Warriors, the Deep's blocks and not have it filmed was to move it

567
00:25:01.859 --> 00:25:02.220
forward.

568
00:25:02.279 --> 00:25:04.980
Now, they were able to do that with everything else, but it was

569
00:25:04.980 --> 00:25:07.200
the visual effects, which were a problem, because the people who

570
00:25:07.200 --> 00:25:09.359
were going to work on visual effects, Warriors and Deep, were busy

571
00:25:09.359 --> 00:25:10.140
on another project.

572
00:25:10.200 --> 00:25:13.079
So that contracted the amount of time that they had to work on

573
00:25:13.079 --> 00:25:14.039
things like the murker.

574
00:25:14.099 --> 00:25:17.099
I don't necessarily think that's a problem when you're in the

575
00:25:17.099 --> 00:25:18.240
studio recording it.

576
00:25:18.299 --> 00:25:20.460
So you didn't have less time than they would have for any other

577
00:25:20.460 --> 00:25:21.119
Doctor Who.

578
00:25:21.180 --> 00:25:22.259
But this is a big thing.

579
00:25:22.319 --> 00:25:26.460
This is where the wheel starts to come off Doctor Who because JNT

580
00:25:26.460 --> 00:25:28.380
is aiming too big with the productions.

581
00:25:28.500 --> 00:25:31.859
Famously, Philip Hinchcliffe would rule things in and out

582
00:25:31.859 --> 00:25:33.779
depending on what could be achieved on screen.

583
00:25:33.839 --> 00:25:39.059
And so he would say, let's definitely have a jungle and planet of

584
00:25:39.059 --> 00:25:42.180
evil, because I know that we can reliably produce that and make it

585
00:25:42.180 --> 00:25:42.539
look good.

586
00:25:42.599 --> 00:25:46.200
Let's not have a robot in Brain of Morbius because that's not

587
00:25:46.200 --> 00:25:47.579
going to work on screen.

588
00:25:47.640 --> 00:25:48.240
Yeah.

589
00:25:48.359 --> 00:25:50.460
Oh, that's one element too many to pay for.

590
00:25:50.519 --> 00:25:53.700
Well, Robert Holmes says that Philip Hinchcliffe suddenly had

591
00:25:53.700 --> 00:25:55.619
doubts about it and said, I don't think we're going to be able to

592
00:25:55.619 --> 00:25:58.680
do a robot in Solon's place and make it look good.

593
00:25:58.740 --> 00:26:00.359
And so we're just going to rewrite it.

594
00:26:00.480 --> 00:26:03.299
JNT doesn't have that inhibition.

595
00:26:03.359 --> 00:26:05.160
And so I think...

596
00:26:05.220 --> 00:26:06.839
The issue's becoming too overconfident is the problem.

597
00:26:06.900 --> 00:26:08.339
Well, it shouldn't be overconfident.

598
00:26:08.400 --> 00:26:10.500
It should be a clear-eyed assessment of what can be achieved.

599
00:26:10.559 --> 00:26:13.380
And he's had plenty of experience with that given productions like

600
00:26:13.380 --> 00:26:14.759
earth shock and time flies.

601
00:26:14.819 --> 00:26:18.900
The problem is that he's producing Doctor Who to try to match

602
00:26:18.900 --> 00:26:21.539
things like Star Wars, which is the mistake that everyone else

603
00:26:21.539 --> 00:26:21.900
makes.

604
00:26:21.960 --> 00:26:24.539
It's the mistake that Michael Grade makes when he says, oh, you

605
00:26:24.539 --> 00:26:26.579
know, it should have been more like Star Wars, and it just looked

606
00:26:26.579 --> 00:26:27.059
like nonsense.

607
00:26:27.119 --> 00:26:29.940
No, it shouldn't have been trying to compete with Star Wars.

608
00:26:30.000 --> 00:26:33.359
A series of stories on the budget of, say, Planet of Fire and

609
00:26:33.359 --> 00:26:37.619
Caves around Zani, would have looked fine and not lent into this.

610
00:26:37.680 --> 00:26:40.200
We can't achieve what we're trying to do.

611
00:26:40.259 --> 00:26:42.900
But instead, he's trying to do Warriors of the Deep.

612
00:26:42.960 --> 00:26:46.559
He's trying to do, let's say, Resurrection of the Daleks later in

613
00:26:46.559 --> 00:26:48.839
the season, which, yeah, it does look, there are elements which

614
00:26:48.839 --> 00:26:52.079
look good, but the things which you need to film in the studio, you

615
00:26:52.079 --> 00:26:53.220
don't have time to film.

616
00:26:53.279 --> 00:26:56.940
You simply don't have time to put all of these monster costumes

617
00:26:56.940 --> 00:26:59.400
together, make sure they're fisted right for the take.

618
00:26:59.460 --> 00:27:02.640
You certainly don't have time, and this is one of the big problems

619
00:27:02.640 --> 00:27:06.000
of the story along with the Merka, to film those action

620
00:27:06.000 --> 00:27:06.660
sequences.

621
00:27:06.720 --> 00:27:10.859
You need to prize them apart and film them a couple of shots at a

622
00:27:10.859 --> 00:27:14.519
time to make them work and then knit it all together so that it

623
00:27:14.519 --> 00:27:18.119
looks like something instead what you've got is a whole bunch of

624
00:27:18.119 --> 00:27:23.279
monster costumes, shuffling across the set in wide shot, firing

625
00:27:23.279 --> 00:27:26.400
their guns at point blank range and never hitting anything, and

626
00:27:26.400 --> 00:27:30.420
it's all covered in wide shot and MCU, and it completely kills the

627
00:27:30.420 --> 00:27:30.660
story.

628
00:27:30.720 --> 00:27:32.880
It's kind of like going back to Dalek Invasion of Earth.

629
00:27:32.940 --> 00:27:36.720
I mean, it's the same kind of sins as that, but it's not just the

630
00:27:36.720 --> 00:27:39.240
lead up, which is why all the Mercer and light sort of stuff is

631
00:27:39.240 --> 00:27:41.460
having its paint dry minutes before it appears.

632
00:27:41.519 --> 00:27:44.579
Isn't it also the fact that they don't have or maybe it's because

633
00:27:44.579 --> 00:27:46.740
of that, that they don't have much time to actually do the shots?

634
00:27:46.799 --> 00:27:50.160
I mean, I'm sure Janet says at one point that there was one shot

635
00:27:50.160 --> 00:27:52.259
that she just thought was the camera rehearsal and she wasn't

636
00:27:52.259 --> 00:27:52.980
giving it her all.

637
00:27:53.039 --> 00:27:54.420
She was just basically going through the motions.

638
00:27:54.480 --> 00:27:57.359
Yes, that's that scene early in episode 2 where Tegan is hiding

639
00:27:57.359 --> 00:28:00.240
outside the command centre when the doctor's gone in to confront

640
00:28:00.240 --> 00:28:02.279
them and Preston comes across.

641
00:28:02.339 --> 00:28:04.799
That, I think, is the scene chance talking about, where she just

642
00:28:04.799 --> 00:28:07.680
sort of turns around in sort of shock and looks at Preston.

643
00:28:07.740 --> 00:28:10.140
You think, well, that's weirdly underplayed and overplayed.

644
00:28:10.200 --> 00:28:12.299
Yes, exactly. love that scene.

645
00:28:12.359 --> 00:28:14.880
And what you're saying earlier too.

646
00:28:14.880 --> 00:28:15.480
I love it.

647
00:28:15.539 --> 00:28:17.819
And what you're saying earlier too, Nathan, about the sea devil

648
00:28:17.819 --> 00:28:21.180
head falling off and the camera's trying to hide it.

649
00:28:21.240 --> 00:28:24.059
They don't have time to say, cut, let's start that.

650
00:28:24.119 --> 00:28:26.220
It's the kind of thing they've got less time than normal. fix the

651
00:28:26.220 --> 00:28:26.519
costume.

652
00:28:26.579 --> 00:28:29.700
They have the same time as normal, but you can't mount sequences

653
00:28:29.700 --> 00:28:32.039
like that in the studio and make them work.

654
00:28:32.099 --> 00:28:33.539
Maybe Graham Harper could have done it.

655
00:28:33.599 --> 00:28:36.900
Maybe being the genius that he is on multicam, he could have made

656
00:28:36.900 --> 00:28:37.980
a sequence like that work.

657
00:28:38.039 --> 00:28:41.519
But when you get a director of Pennant Roberts standard, a typical

658
00:28:41.519 --> 00:28:43.680
multi-camera drama director.

659
00:28:43.740 --> 00:28:46.740
You have absolutely no hope of pulling together a sequence like

660
00:28:46.740 --> 00:28:46.920
that.

661
00:28:46.980 --> 00:28:49.680
It makes many characters, this many monsters and this many

662
00:28:49.680 --> 00:28:50.099
costumes.

663
00:28:50.160 --> 00:28:52.619
Well, you know, having 12 sea devils come through the door and

664
00:28:52.619 --> 00:28:56.039
having 12 base people firing at them on the other side.

665
00:28:56.099 --> 00:28:58.259
It's all covered far too broadly.

666
00:28:58.319 --> 00:29:01.680
It makes the story look laughable in those instances.

667
00:29:01.740 --> 00:29:04.680
And this is the problem with 1980s Doctor Who.

668
00:29:04.799 --> 00:29:06.000
There's no quality control.

669
00:29:06.059 --> 00:29:08.759
So we know JNT can produce Great Doctor Who.

670
00:29:08.819 --> 00:29:09.960
He does frequently.

671
00:29:10.019 --> 00:29:13.920
He also produces terrible Doctor Who, and that's from story to

672
00:29:13.920 --> 00:29:14.279
story.

673
00:29:14.339 --> 00:29:17.160
You get Warriors of the Deep, which is a failed production in a

674
00:29:17.160 --> 00:29:19.980
lot of ways, notwithstanding some of the great things that we've

675
00:29:19.980 --> 00:29:21.180
said about the set and all of that.

676
00:29:21.240 --> 00:29:23.640
You then get a tight little production like The Awakening

677
00:29:23.640 --> 00:29:24.059
following it.

678
00:29:24.119 --> 00:29:27.779
You get time lash, followed by Revelation of the Daleks.

679
00:29:27.839 --> 00:29:31.619
You get the caves around Dzani, followed by between the...

680
00:29:31.680 --> 00:29:34.380
There is no quality control, and I think they are aiming too big.

681
00:29:34.440 --> 00:29:35.460
It's the director, though.

682
00:29:35.519 --> 00:29:36.539
We've always said it's the director.

683
00:29:36.599 --> 00:29:37.980
That's a different show, even.

684
00:29:37.980 --> 00:29:39.000
Harper and Peter Moffatt.

685
00:29:39.059 --> 00:29:39.599
Absolutely.

686
00:29:39.660 --> 00:29:40.140
I'm not sure.

687
00:29:40.259 --> 00:29:42.180
Even Graham Harper could have pulled this off, though, although he

688
00:29:42.180 --> 00:29:42.660
might have...

689
00:29:42.660 --> 00:29:44.460
Oh, he would have been rushing around the studio floor making

690
00:29:44.460 --> 00:29:44.880
things happen.

691
00:29:44.940 --> 00:29:46.019
Yeah, well, that's about that.

692
00:29:46.079 --> 00:29:47.940
I'm not sure that you could pull this together.

693
00:29:48.000 --> 00:29:52.079
And so the problem with 80s Doctor Who is the fact that they are

694
00:29:52.079 --> 00:29:53.339
aiming too big.

695
00:29:53.400 --> 00:29:55.920
There are productions which don't work and become laughable.

696
00:29:55.980 --> 00:29:59.099
And I think this is where the general public starts to see a

697
00:29:59.099 --> 00:29:59.519
problem.

698
00:29:59.579 --> 00:30:01.920
No, it can't hold a candle to Star Wars.

699
00:30:01.980 --> 00:30:02.700
So why is it trying?

700
00:30:02.759 --> 00:30:06.599
And it's pressured, but there's endless pressure to match Star

701
00:30:06.599 --> 00:30:09.359
Wars or any of the other sort of sci-fi type films that you're

702
00:30:09.359 --> 00:30:09.839
starting to get.

703
00:30:09.900 --> 00:30:11.819
Another series, like, you know, it's not just Star Wars.

704
00:30:11.880 --> 00:30:14.160
You know, you've got Buck Rogers in the 25th century was on. you've

705
00:30:14.160 --> 00:30:15.119
got other things like that.

706
00:30:15.180 --> 00:30:19.019
And, you know, Michael Grade points to this story and says that

707
00:30:19.019 --> 00:30:19.980
this is rubbish.

708
00:30:19.980 --> 00:30:24.059
When he was on room 101, they showed a clip, which was Dr. Solau

709
00:30:24.059 --> 00:30:25.559
karate chopping the murka.

710
00:30:25.619 --> 00:30:28.259
And of course, the audience laughed like a drain, and he sat there

711
00:30:28.259 --> 00:30:29.940
saying, this was absolute rubbish.

712
00:30:30.000 --> 00:30:31.200
I don't know why we're making it.

713
00:30:31.259 --> 00:30:34.319
And it's because he wasn't watching the Kazer and Azani, which

714
00:30:34.319 --> 00:30:37.259
clearly was a great example of Doctor Who production.

715
00:30:37.319 --> 00:30:40.319
Yeah, okay, there's bits and pieces, but there always will be, but

716
00:30:40.319 --> 00:30:43.259
it's a tight, well told, well shot production.

717
00:30:43.319 --> 00:30:44.220
He's not thinking that.

718
00:30:44.279 --> 00:30:46.619
The only thing he sees, the only thing which lingers in the

719
00:30:46.619 --> 00:30:49.680
general public's imagination, is Warriors the Deep, and the

720
00:30:49.680 --> 00:30:51.660
mattress store and the shuffling monsters.

721
00:30:51.720 --> 00:30:56.160
And so there is big claim to be made for as of the deep that it

722
00:30:56.160 --> 00:30:59.640
killed Doctor Who, I think, because he came in as controller of

723
00:30:59.640 --> 00:31:04.319
BBC one in summer of 1984 and the 1st thing on his desk that you

724
00:31:04.319 --> 00:31:07.380
would have seen was the internal BBC report saying that Warriors

725
00:31:07.380 --> 00:31:08.700
of the Deep was unfit for transmission.

726
00:31:08.759 --> 00:31:11.099
Do you think maybe that flag's something in his head?

727
00:31:17.579 --> 00:31:21.480
I love Dr. Solau kicking the Merka.

728
00:31:21.539 --> 00:31:23.339
What is she trying to do, though?

729
00:31:23.400 --> 00:31:24.480
Die.

730
00:31:25.680 --> 00:31:27.480
I just love it.

731
00:31:27.539 --> 00:31:30.779
It's it's just it's something that was just emblazoned on my

732
00:31:30.779 --> 00:31:31.920
memory as a kid.

733
00:31:31.980 --> 00:31:36.180
Like, I really thought this is so ridiculous, but she's still

734
00:31:36.180 --> 00:31:37.380
going to do that, you know?

735
00:31:37.440 --> 00:31:41.759
Yeah, I mean, one of the things is that this sort of nonsense to

736
00:31:41.759 --> 00:31:46.079
us doesn't matter all that much, because this is something that

737
00:31:46.079 --> 00:31:49.319
you don't go back to, Simon, that I was kind of bored during, but

738
00:31:49.319 --> 00:31:54.720
like, it's not a war crime, and like, there's lots of fun to be

739
00:31:54.720 --> 00:31:57.180
had in how sort of silly and crummy it is.

740
00:31:57.240 --> 00:32:00.359
I would have loved if Dr. Solo had survived and been taken by the

741
00:32:00.359 --> 00:32:02.579
other block and put on trial for war crimes.

742
00:32:02.640 --> 00:32:05.940
One of the charges was, why did you kick the murker?

743
00:32:06.000 --> 00:32:08.519
But isn't it interesting, like, she never meets the doctor.

744
00:32:08.579 --> 00:32:10.559
Like, she never doesn't have a single. she doesn't have a single

745
00:32:10.559 --> 00:32:13.559
line of dialogue with the doctor, like Rulolenska in a couple of

746
00:32:13.559 --> 00:32:16.740
stories time, like Cara in Revelation of the Daleks?

747
00:32:16.799 --> 00:32:21.299
these strong women or villainouses or heroes just don't meet the

748
00:32:21.299 --> 00:32:22.140
doctor in these stories.

749
00:32:22.200 --> 00:32:25.559
It's very interesting That whole thing, I think, is also really

750
00:32:25.559 --> 00:32:27.059
kind of undercooked too.

751
00:32:27.119 --> 00:32:31.380
And you gestured, Simon, I think, at a version of this story, where

752
00:32:31.380 --> 00:32:36.960
there is a proper parallel between the Cold War that's happening

753
00:32:36.960 --> 00:32:41.880
between the mysterious other block and us.

754
00:32:41.940 --> 00:32:43.380
The power block opposed to this one.

755
00:32:43.440 --> 00:32:46.140
Yes, I love that phrase.

756
00:32:46.440 --> 00:32:48.599
But there's only 2 of them.

757
00:32:48.660 --> 00:32:52.380
No, because it could mean that we're actually on the USSR power

758
00:32:52.380 --> 00:32:52.859
block.

759
00:32:52.920 --> 00:32:53.759
Yeah, you know?

760
00:32:53.819 --> 00:32:54.180
Yeah.

761
00:32:54.180 --> 00:32:57.180
Notwithstanding the accents, but, you know, that's a BBC thing.

762
00:32:57.299 --> 00:33:02.339
And then the Silurians come along and there, you know, a bigger

763
00:33:02.339 --> 00:33:05.640
more frightening power block that pushes us together or comments

764
00:33:05.640 --> 00:33:06.779
on what's been happening.

765
00:33:06.839 --> 00:33:12.480
And by setting it exactly 100 years into the future, you are

766
00:33:12.480 --> 00:33:16.440
inviting us to read it as the present day.

767
00:33:16.500 --> 00:33:18.660
But there's none of that.

768
00:33:18.720 --> 00:33:20.279
Like, there is none of that.

769
00:33:20.339 --> 00:33:23.880
It's just eating up running time, that plot.

770
00:33:23.940 --> 00:33:25.740
It doesn't mean anything.

771
00:33:25.799 --> 00:33:29.099
No, for me, it's not eating up enough running time.

772
00:33:29.160 --> 00:33:30.359
It's my problem.

773
00:33:30.420 --> 00:33:32.279
It's neither one thing nor the other.

774
00:33:32.339 --> 00:33:33.359
It's sort of a half pregnant.

775
00:33:33.420 --> 00:33:36.359
They've had this idea that we're going to do a Cold War analogy

776
00:33:36.359 --> 00:33:37.559
and it is timely.

777
00:33:37.619 --> 00:33:40.859
The Cold War was picking up at that time. you know, Reagan.

778
00:33:40.920 --> 00:33:42.299
Yeah, it's the same year that threads were shown.

779
00:33:42.299 --> 00:33:44.579
Threads day after. those things were shown.

780
00:33:44.640 --> 00:33:47.519
The whole missile run that they do at the beginning. reminiscent

781
00:33:47.519 --> 00:33:50.160
of war games, that wonderful film of Matthew Broderick, which was

782
00:33:50.160 --> 00:33:52.319
kind of quite important for me back in the day too.

783
00:33:52.380 --> 00:33:54.119
It is so of the time.

784
00:33:54.180 --> 00:33:57.180
And yet they then choose not to really do anything interesting

785
00:33:57.180 --> 00:33:57.660
with it.

786
00:33:57.720 --> 00:34:00.240
Do you remember the thing about the neutron bombs?

787
00:34:00.299 --> 00:34:03.720
You know, how kind of horrible the neutron bombs were?

788
00:34:03.779 --> 00:34:07.799
So neutron bombs are invented, you know, sometime before this, but

789
00:34:07.799 --> 00:34:11.760
they become a bit of a thing under Reagan and stuff like that and

790
00:34:11.760 --> 00:34:15.059
they're getting a lot of exposure and press at the time.

791
00:34:15.119 --> 00:34:18.300
And these ones are proton bombs.

792
00:34:18.360 --> 00:34:20.099
They get mentioned, though, in the story.

793
00:34:20.159 --> 00:34:24.119
And the idea is that they explode, but the actual physical

794
00:34:24.119 --> 00:34:27.539
explosion is quite limited, but they do kill all of the people

795
00:34:27.539 --> 00:34:29.579
while leaving the space intact.

796
00:34:29.639 --> 00:34:31.139
That was what the neutron bomb was.

797
00:34:31.199 --> 00:34:31.739
Yeah, that's right.

798
00:34:31.800 --> 00:34:32.880
That's still pretty distractive.

799
00:34:32.940 --> 00:34:37.380
Yeah, yeah, but the idea is because in previous wars and in both

800
00:34:37.380 --> 00:34:40.199
World War I and World War II, part of the thing that prevents you

801
00:34:40.199 --> 00:34:43.559
from invading and taking territory is that during the course of

802
00:34:43.559 --> 00:34:46.619
invasion, you destroy all the things that you want to acquire.

803
00:34:46.679 --> 00:34:48.840
So it becomes not worth your while.

804
00:34:48.900 --> 00:34:51.119
And then the neutron bomb solves that problem.

805
00:34:51.179 --> 00:34:55.500
And so at the time it was felt to be particularly inhumane and

806
00:34:55.500 --> 00:35:00.719
appalling because I think on some level because it sort of changed

807
00:35:00.719 --> 00:35:01.920
that calculus.

808
00:35:01.980 --> 00:35:03.780
And that gets mentioned here.

809
00:35:03.840 --> 00:35:08.280
So the actual stuff about the Cold War is actually, absolutely, as

810
00:35:08.280 --> 00:35:09.539
you said, completely relevant.

811
00:35:09.599 --> 00:35:11.340
But what do we do with it?

812
00:35:11.400 --> 00:35:12.900
How do we comment on it?

813
00:35:12.960 --> 00:35:18.239
And in fact, we create a situation where these people come onto

814
00:35:18.239 --> 00:35:21.960
the base and the only choice that we have is to poison them all

815
00:35:21.960 --> 00:35:24.480
and then the sort of story ends.

816
00:35:24.539 --> 00:35:28.019
And when the doctor says at the end of it, there should have been

817
00:35:28.019 --> 00:35:31.860
another way, Johnny Byrne should have thought of another way.

818
00:35:31.920 --> 00:35:33.539
That's where the problem lies.

819
00:35:33.599 --> 00:35:36.659
It's almost like the threat of the sea devils and the Silurians.

820
00:35:36.719 --> 00:35:38.219
They should have had their own agenda, obviously.

821
00:35:38.280 --> 00:35:40.860
But the threat of them should have been what brought the 2 blocks

822
00:35:40.860 --> 00:35:41.099
together.

823
00:35:41.159 --> 00:35:42.179
Yes, exactly.

824
00:35:42.239 --> 00:35:46.619
But you see, the thing with the, you know, the hexacromite gas and

825
00:35:46.619 --> 00:35:46.920
everything.

826
00:35:46.920 --> 00:35:50.880
And really, there is no choice but to use it to destroy the sea

827
00:35:50.880 --> 00:35:52.079
devils and cellurians.

828
00:35:52.139 --> 00:35:54.480
But also there's no choice story wise, not to use it anyway

829
00:35:54.480 --> 00:35:57.599
because of the fact that there is nothing sympathetic that is

830
00:35:57.599 --> 00:35:59.639
presented about the city levels and cellular.

831
00:35:59.699 --> 00:36:03.900
They're just evil invading creatures who we have to destroy

832
00:36:03.900 --> 00:36:07.079
otherwise we'll all die, and they'll destroy the all life on this

833
00:36:07.079 --> 00:36:07.380
planet.

834
00:36:07.440 --> 00:36:10.800
So in some respects, it's not an interesting thing to happen

835
00:36:10.800 --> 00:36:11.039
anyway.

836
00:36:11.099 --> 00:36:11.820
Exactly.

837
00:36:11.880 --> 00:36:14.219
Johnny Burns making up this situation.

838
00:36:14.280 --> 00:36:18.300
If there's no alternative, but to kill them all, that's because of

839
00:36:18.300 --> 00:36:20.340
the situation that we've decided to make up.

840
00:36:20.400 --> 00:36:26.219
So a story where the doctor does something like persuade the

841
00:36:26.219 --> 00:36:29.880
Silurians and sea devils that they're doing the wrong thing, the

842
00:36:29.880 --> 00:36:33.960
way that the doctor persuades more gain not to let nuclear weapons

843
00:36:33.960 --> 00:36:37.199
off and kill a whole bunch of people a few years later.

844
00:36:37.320 --> 00:36:40.980
You know, you don't have a heroic doctor at this point because no

845
00:36:40.980 --> 00:36:43.139
one is really behind that as an idea.

846
00:36:43.199 --> 00:36:46.679
You kind of need the ending to be like the ending of the channel

847
00:36:46.679 --> 00:36:50.460
to do part of from series 5, where you actually physically get

848
00:36:50.460 --> 00:36:51.900
both groups in a room.

849
00:36:51.960 --> 00:36:54.900
The doctors persuaded the Silurians not to set off all of the

850
00:36:54.900 --> 00:36:55.739
missiles.

851
00:36:55.800 --> 00:36:57.119
And so there they are facing each other.

852
00:36:57.179 --> 00:36:59.099
How are they going to make this agreement work?

853
00:36:59.159 --> 00:36:59.880
Yeah.

854
00:36:59.880 --> 00:37:03.659
No, I think what you can do is you can mimic the Syrians, the

855
00:37:03.659 --> 00:37:07.920
original story, and have the doctor persuading them to not launch

856
00:37:07.920 --> 00:37:11.400
the nuclear weapons, and then Walshack comes in, discusses them

857
00:37:11.400 --> 00:37:11.579
all.

858
00:37:11.639 --> 00:37:14.940
And so you still, you still need to have that resolution of, you

859
00:37:14.940 --> 00:37:17.639
can't just have them all, well, let's go off and talk about this.

860
00:37:17.699 --> 00:37:20.219
I mean, I think either is a more interesting proposition than what

861
00:37:20.219 --> 00:37:22.260
we got, even though I do kind of like the ending.

862
00:37:22.320 --> 00:37:25.739
Like you said, Nathan, as resolutions go, it just stops.

863
00:37:25.860 --> 00:37:26.639
Yeah.

864
00:37:26.639 --> 00:37:28.860
There's no denouement at all. extraordinary.

865
00:37:28.980 --> 00:37:29.280
No.

866
00:37:29.340 --> 00:37:32.519
And just the kind of killing everyone, like there's a nastiness to

867
00:37:32.519 --> 00:37:34.920
it, and I think...

868
00:37:34.980 --> 00:37:35.159
Yeah.

869
00:37:35.159 --> 00:37:38.760
I think you and I disagree about what should be the permissible

870
00:37:38.760 --> 00:37:41.760
level of nastiness. 100% is my upper limit.

871
00:37:42.179 --> 00:37:44.820
Isn't the Todd's 120%?

872
00:37:44.880 --> 00:37:46.500
not commenting on that.

873
00:37:46.559 --> 00:37:49.559
No, but look at some of the great stories in history.

874
00:37:49.619 --> 00:37:51.059
The Ark and Space, you've only got via left.

875
00:37:51.119 --> 00:37:53.219
Okay, the rest of, in terms of speaking characters.

876
00:37:53.280 --> 00:37:54.659
In Pyramids of Mars, they're all dead.

877
00:37:54.719 --> 00:37:57.360
In Robots of Death, you've only got 2 cinema.

878
00:37:57.360 --> 00:37:58.079
Horror Fang Rock.

879
00:37:58.139 --> 00:37:58.920
They're all gone.

880
00:37:58.980 --> 00:37:59.280
Exactly.

881
00:37:59.340 --> 00:38:00.300
And they're all great.

882
00:38:00.360 --> 00:38:03.659
But, but this has, you know, like people being blinded and, you

883
00:38:03.659 --> 00:38:07.260
know, like people strangling their friends and, and like, it's

884
00:38:07.260 --> 00:38:10.139
there's just a kind of, just a...

885
00:38:10.199 --> 00:38:11.460
Yeah, don't move the story on it all.

886
00:38:11.519 --> 00:38:14.519
I just happen for a bit of drama, whereas in something like horror

887
00:38:14.519 --> 00:38:15.119
Fang Rock.

888
00:38:15.179 --> 00:38:16.619
Every death moves the story forward.

889
00:38:16.679 --> 00:38:19.199
That's right. that's right The commander and Preston could have

890
00:38:19.199 --> 00:38:20.340
easily survived. right?

891
00:38:20.400 --> 00:38:21.840
It was just...

892
00:38:21.900 --> 00:38:22.860
I think it's just lazy writing.

893
00:38:22.920 --> 00:38:24.480
I think they were meant to. originally.

894
00:38:24.539 --> 00:38:24.960
Yeah.

895
00:38:24.960 --> 00:38:26.400
The commander in Buick.

896
00:38:26.460 --> 00:38:29.039
I just think Eric Seywood is good.

897
00:38:29.099 --> 00:38:32.519
You have to lay a lot of blame at his feet.

898
00:38:32.579 --> 00:38:36.659
And bringing Johnny Byrne back after the huge success of Arc of

899
00:38:36.659 --> 00:38:37.139
Infinity.

900
00:38:37.199 --> 00:38:37.920
Like it's like...

901
00:38:37.920 --> 00:38:40.380
No, I'm serious.

902
00:38:40.380 --> 00:38:43.380
I'm actually surprised how much I enjoyed it on the Blu-ray box.

903
00:38:43.440 --> 00:38:43.679
What?

904
00:38:43.679 --> 00:38:44.880
Archive Infinity.

905
00:38:44.940 --> 00:38:47.400
Well, I was going in.

906
00:38:47.519 --> 00:38:48.840
I was going with very low expectations.

907
00:38:48.900 --> 00:38:50.400
Often that's a good thing.

908
00:38:50.460 --> 00:38:55.019
I am also surprised by how much. true.

909
00:38:55.079 --> 00:38:58.260
Yes, I think basically he's dined out far too long on Keeper of

910
00:38:58.260 --> 00:38:59.039
Trarkan is the problem.

911
00:38:59.099 --> 00:39:03.420
Yes, after that, you know, he's only as half as good and half as

912
00:39:03.420 --> 00:39:03.960
good again.

913
00:39:04.019 --> 00:39:04.920
Yeah, yeah.

914
00:39:11.219 --> 00:39:14.760
Back to what you were saying, like, about the nobility of the

915
00:39:14.760 --> 00:39:15.599
Silurians.

916
00:39:15.659 --> 00:39:18.900
Like the doctor mentions their honourable and that, but you don't

917
00:39:18.900 --> 00:39:20.219
get that at any point.

918
00:39:20.280 --> 00:39:21.780
Yeah, they're not in the story, are they?

919
00:39:21.840 --> 00:39:24.840
Do we remember, like, in the other 2 stories, you've got a lot of

920
00:39:24.840 --> 00:39:27.119
characters that you actually spend a lot of time with that you

921
00:39:27.119 --> 00:39:27.719
actually like?

922
00:39:27.780 --> 00:39:31.559
I mean, I like Preston and Dr. Solo come to mind and perhaps

923
00:39:31.559 --> 00:39:34.679
Maddox, but everybody else could be like the commander and then

924
00:39:34.679 --> 00:39:36.719
his deputy and then the other evil guy.

925
00:39:36.840 --> 00:39:38.579
There are actually too many characters.

926
00:39:38.639 --> 00:39:40.260
And that's another problem with the 80s.

927
00:39:40.320 --> 00:39:41.820
There's far too many supporting carriages.

928
00:39:41.880 --> 00:39:44.820
You could easily have combined Preston and Buick into the same

929
00:39:44.820 --> 00:39:45.179
character.

930
00:39:45.239 --> 00:39:47.760
But then you do get kind of nice little side characters like

931
00:39:47.760 --> 00:39:52.619
Karina, Maddox's friend who has some nice scenes or that guy that

932
00:39:52.619 --> 00:39:54.300
you know, what did he have for lunch?

933
00:39:54.420 --> 00:39:54.840
That guy.

934
00:39:54.900 --> 00:39:56.400
Oh, yes, exactly.

935
00:39:56.400 --> 00:39:58.679
That's got to be a Peter Davis rehearsal joke.

936
00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:03.239
And again, I really quite like that.

937
00:40:03.300 --> 00:40:07.739
It adds a bit of colour to incidental thing.

938
00:40:07.800 --> 00:40:08.760
What have you been eating?

939
00:40:08.820 --> 00:40:13.139
I actually agree with you, Todd, because the whole thing is so po

940
00:40:12.420 --> 00:40:16.139
faced and so serious and no one says anything that isn't about the

941
00:40:16.139 --> 00:40:19.139
immediate plot and the situation that we find ourselves in.

942
00:40:19.320 --> 00:40:24.239
So having just a kind of a couple of throwaway lines is a relief.

943
00:40:24.300 --> 00:40:27.059
It's coming from Peter Davison's coming from the doctor.

944
00:40:27.119 --> 00:40:30.059
And this is a doctor, as people who listen to the podcast, know

945
00:40:30.059 --> 00:40:32.639
that I don't really have didn't gel with.

946
00:40:32.699 --> 00:40:35.400
And like when he's doing these little things, these little snarky

947
00:40:35.400 --> 00:40:39.179
things and commentary and that, it really shines how good he is in

948
00:40:39.179 --> 00:40:39.480
this story.

949
00:40:39.539 --> 00:40:40.679
It's funny.

950
00:40:40.739 --> 00:40:44.400
It's because it's so that's the only real incident of adding some

951
00:40:44.400 --> 00:40:47.400
lightness to the story that it makes it feel really weird for me

952
00:40:47.400 --> 00:40:51.179
and oh, and I think, oh, that's a bit dicky because it's so out of

953
00:40:51.179 --> 00:40:54.059
place with everything else that's at the style of the rest of the

954
00:40:54.059 --> 00:40:54.179
story.

955
00:40:54.239 --> 00:40:56.519
It's also that weird thing of the doctor going around for 3

956
00:40:56.519 --> 00:40:58.559
quarters of the story out of his normal costume.

957
00:40:58.619 --> 00:41:00.179
It pokes me in the eye every time.

958
00:41:00.239 --> 00:41:01.679
I like that.

959
00:41:01.739 --> 00:41:02.400
Yeah okay.

960
00:41:02.460 --> 00:41:06.300
It motivates the change of costume. from here on in.

961
00:41:06.420 --> 00:41:09.059
Yeah, he has a different costume from here.

962
00:41:09.119 --> 00:41:13.260
The green shirt comes to red shirt and yeah, trousers are

963
00:41:13.260 --> 00:41:13.500
different.

964
00:41:13.559 --> 00:41:14.519
Yeah, yeah.

965
00:41:14.579 --> 00:41:15.780
Windows are the wrong size.

966
00:41:19.440 --> 00:41:21.300
There was 2 doors.

967
00:41:22.320 --> 00:41:24.059
No, that's true.

968
00:41:24.119 --> 00:41:26.519
Look, going back to what we were saying at the start, there is

969
00:41:26.519 --> 00:41:28.679
actually quite a lot about this story that is good.

970
00:41:28.739 --> 00:41:29.820
The sets are good.

971
00:41:29.880 --> 00:41:32.940
The lighting, I think, going against the received wisdom is

972
00:41:32.940 --> 00:41:33.659
sometimes quite good.

973
00:41:33.719 --> 00:41:36.179
Some of those corridors are really quite well lit.

974
00:41:36.239 --> 00:41:37.019
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

975
00:41:37.079 --> 00:41:38.400
The model work looks fantastic.

976
00:41:38.460 --> 00:41:41.039
I think the money is there on the screen.

977
00:41:41.099 --> 00:41:45.119
The problem is being able to execute what the script is asking of

978
00:41:45.119 --> 00:41:45.360
it.

979
00:41:45.420 --> 00:41:48.239
And I don't think any director, be it Graham Harper or Pennant

980
00:41:48.239 --> 00:41:52.079
Roberts, would have been able to make those battle sequences or

981
00:41:52.079 --> 00:41:55.500
the sequences with the murka fighting off the extras, look any

982
00:41:55.500 --> 00:41:55.739
good.

983
00:41:55.800 --> 00:41:56.639
The merka.

984
00:41:56.699 --> 00:41:59.820
So, the murket, they should have gone back to basics.

985
00:41:59.880 --> 00:42:02.579
They knew a couple of days in advance that the costume wasn't

986
00:42:02.579 --> 00:42:04.019
going to be ready and they made the decision.

987
00:42:04.079 --> 00:42:04.920
Let's just go with it.

988
00:42:04.980 --> 00:42:06.840
No, you can't do that.

989
00:42:06.900 --> 00:42:08.820
That's why there was a report saying it was unfit for

990
00:42:08.820 --> 00:42:09.300
transmission.

991
00:42:09.360 --> 00:42:12.719
That should have prompted a wholesale rethink of what they were

992
00:42:12.719 --> 00:42:13.199
going to do.

993
00:42:13.260 --> 00:42:15.780
And, you know, these professionals do it a couple of days for the

994
00:42:15.780 --> 00:42:17.039
studio and then make it work.

995
00:42:17.099 --> 00:42:18.960
There should have been more point of view shots.

996
00:42:19.019 --> 00:42:21.599
There should have been more glimpses of it rather than just

997
00:42:21.599 --> 00:42:23.280
plopping it wide.

998
00:42:23.340 --> 00:42:25.619
They should have turned down the lights for any scene that it was

999
00:42:25.619 --> 00:42:27.179
in, shambling down the corridors.

1000
00:42:27.239 --> 00:42:30.239
They could have made the soundscape, more bestille and

1001
00:42:30.239 --> 00:42:31.019
terrifying.

1002
00:42:31.079 --> 00:42:33.480
There is any number of ways that they could have hidden that

1003
00:42:33.480 --> 00:42:36.960
costume more, except they just plop it in the middle of the studio

1004
00:42:36.960 --> 00:42:38.760
and say, walk down the corridor.

1005
00:42:38.760 --> 00:42:40.320
Okay, when you say they, terrible.

1006
00:42:40.380 --> 00:42:41.099
It's pennant.

1007
00:42:41.219 --> 00:42:42.659
No, quite seriously.

1008
00:42:42.780 --> 00:42:44.159
I also have been JNT.

1009
00:42:44.219 --> 00:42:47.820
Well, yes, but nevertheless, it's up to Pennant to adapt to the

1010
00:42:47.820 --> 00:42:50.699
camera script because you say, okay, you're still painting it.

1011
00:42:50.760 --> 00:42:52.199
Right, forget the back half.

1012
00:42:52.260 --> 00:42:53.039
Just give me the head.

1013
00:42:53.159 --> 00:42:55.980
I'll just hide the back of it in soft focus or something else

1014
00:42:55.980 --> 00:42:58.500
because, you know, all it needs to do is whack its tail against a

1015
00:42:58.500 --> 00:43:01.320
panel and there's and all the lights in the base go dim.

1016
00:43:01.380 --> 00:43:01.860
You know what I mean?

1017
00:43:01.920 --> 00:43:02.460
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1018
00:43:02.460 --> 00:43:03.780
It's it's so easy to add.

1019
00:43:03.780 --> 00:43:06.059
Failure of execution and a failure of conception.

1020
00:43:06.119 --> 00:43:07.079
Failure of imagination.

1021
00:43:07.139 --> 00:43:07.440
Yes.

1022
00:43:07.440 --> 00:43:08.699
It is woeful.

1023
00:43:08.760 --> 00:43:09.599
Oh, shocking.

1024
00:43:09.659 --> 00:43:14.460
And so are the electrocutions of the extras that go with it.

1025
00:43:14.519 --> 00:43:15.420
How are the extras?

1026
00:43:15.480 --> 00:43:16.320
Sorry, sorry, sorry.

1027
00:43:16.380 --> 00:43:20.639
The extras, that woman that places itself down on the floor, like

1028
00:43:20.639 --> 00:43:23.039
she doesn't want to hurt her knees or anything.

1029
00:43:23.039 --> 00:43:24.539
She just goes to sleep.

1030
00:43:24.599 --> 00:43:27.659
It makes the ones in Destiny, the Daleks look positively rather

1031
00:43:27.659 --> 00:43:28.800
animated.

1032
00:43:28.860 --> 00:43:30.840
It's not in any form.

1033
00:43:30.900 --> 00:43:32.639
We should not be getting that Exactly.

1034
00:43:32.699 --> 00:43:34.679
It is a bit of a tradition though, isn't it?

1035
00:43:34.739 --> 00:43:37.739
The aliens kill you in a way that makes you gently lower yourself

1036
00:43:37.739 --> 00:43:38.519
to the floor.

1037
00:43:38.880 --> 00:43:41.699
Except it's not that much of a tradition.

1038
00:43:41.760 --> 00:43:44.820
Doctor Who before this time, before the 1980s.

1039
00:43:44.880 --> 00:43:49.440
Let's say before season 20 onwards does not tend to do this.

1040
00:43:49.500 --> 00:43:52.860
It doesn't invite ridicule with scenes like that.

1041
00:43:52.920 --> 00:43:54.719
It's cheap, but it's not nasty.

1042
00:43:54.780 --> 00:43:58.679
This looks cheap and nasty as much as it looks great.

1043
00:43:58.679 --> 00:44:01.500
And you can't have that in a product that's going to screen.

1044
00:44:01.559 --> 00:44:05.039
I mean, the murka is shockingly shockingly bad.

1045
00:44:05.099 --> 00:44:07.019
Like unbelievably terrible.

1046
00:44:07.079 --> 00:44:09.780
And we did have... feelings.

1047
00:44:11.219 --> 00:44:12.599
The slither was shocking.

1048
00:44:12.659 --> 00:44:15.780
No, don't go back there.

1049
00:44:15.840 --> 00:44:18.780
Well, the murker would have been improved if everyone's there

1050
00:44:18.780 --> 00:44:20.880
waiting for it to come through a mattress store and all you hear

1051
00:44:20.880 --> 00:44:22.139
is, ah...

1052
00:44:26.460 --> 00:44:28.980
It doesn't have a mouth.

1053
00:44:29.039 --> 00:44:30.900
Like, it doesn't have a mouth.

1054
00:44:30.960 --> 00:44:32.880
It's just got a ridge.

1055
00:44:32.940 --> 00:44:34.139
Like, it doesn't have teeth.

1056
00:44:34.199 --> 00:44:36.539
Like, it's so bad.

1057
00:44:36.599 --> 00:44:37.739
But when it gets blinded.

1058
00:44:37.800 --> 00:44:39.599
Oh my god.

1059
00:44:39.659 --> 00:44:43.920
It doesn't have a mouth because tarpok feeds and my lactic.

1060
00:44:44.519 --> 00:44:48.239
I mean, it's it's shockingly shockingly bad.

1061
00:44:48.300 --> 00:44:51.000
And like the little hands that it has.

1062
00:44:51.119 --> 00:44:51.840
Actually, they're quite good.

1063
00:44:52.139 --> 00:44:54.420
The soundscape is terrible.

1064
00:44:54.480 --> 00:44:57.719
It goes, It sounds ridiculous.

1065
00:44:57.780 --> 00:44:59.639
It needs to sound bestial.

1066
00:44:59.699 --> 00:45:00.119
Yes, exactly.

1067
00:45:00.179 --> 00:45:03.420
But I mean, maybe we just didn't need it.

1068
00:45:03.480 --> 00:45:07.139
If you'd had 2 phalanxes of sea devils coming through. phalanxes

1069
00:45:07.139 --> 00:45:07.920
of cervix.

1070
00:45:07.980 --> 00:45:08.699
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1071
00:45:08.760 --> 00:45:10.980
Merka has been destroyed.

1072
00:45:11.159 --> 00:45:13.619
With that, and that's the other thing too.

1073
00:45:13.679 --> 00:45:17.760
Like, who, like, one of the big problems that we identified in

1074
00:45:17.760 --> 00:45:21.840
flight through entirety, or probably that I went on about, was in

1075
00:45:21.840 --> 00:45:26.519
the original Silurians that you just have everyone voiced by Peter

1076
00:45:26.519 --> 00:45:29.340
Halliday, I think, is doing all of the Silurians.

1077
00:45:29.400 --> 00:45:34.139
And because the Siurians need to be individual characters, it

1078
00:45:34.139 --> 00:45:36.719
would have been better if they'd been actors doing their own

1079
00:45:36.719 --> 00:45:37.980
voices and stuff.

1080
00:45:38.039 --> 00:45:41.280
But they still sound sort of roughly different and they don't

1081
00:45:41.280 --> 00:45:42.300
sound mechanical.

1082
00:45:42.360 --> 00:45:44.820
Here, they sound like they're robots.

1083
00:45:44.880 --> 00:45:46.500
Like no one seems to know what they are.

1084
00:45:46.559 --> 00:45:50.519
And because we've got the lights flashing like their daleks and

1085
00:45:50.519 --> 00:45:54.780
because they speak slowly. like the Silurians in the Silurians.

1086
00:45:56.099 --> 00:45:59.400
Yeah, yeah, yeah. and they have proper discussions and stuff

1087
00:45:59.579 --> 00:46:03.900
Something to do with beyond the range of the sensor.

1088
00:46:03.960 --> 00:46:07.139
He's so slow and plodding.

1089
00:46:07.199 --> 00:46:09.420
Oh, it's really boring.

1090
00:46:09.539 --> 00:46:12.840
And what biological reason makes a part of your body flash when

1091
00:46:12.840 --> 00:46:13.139
you speak.

1092
00:46:13.199 --> 00:46:15.420
Well, maybe you're an anglerfish.

1093
00:46:15.480 --> 00:46:17.460
Maybe...

1094
00:46:17.460 --> 00:46:20.340
But again, okay, we're going to spring back Silurians.

1095
00:46:20.400 --> 00:46:23.519
Let's bring them back without a central feature that they were

1096
00:46:23.519 --> 00:46:24.179
known for.

1097
00:46:24.239 --> 00:46:24.780
Why?

1098
00:46:24.900 --> 00:46:26.579
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1099
00:46:26.639 --> 00:46:30.239
Oh, they don't even open the doors with their...

1100
00:46:30.300 --> 00:46:34.019
Or burn through corridors or rock.

1101
00:46:34.079 --> 00:46:36.719
I suspect somebody watched Solarians and thought they looked

1102
00:46:36.719 --> 00:46:37.199
silly.

1103
00:46:37.260 --> 00:46:39.300
And so therefore, let's make them look less silly.

1104
00:46:39.360 --> 00:46:41.159
Therefore on screen, they look worse.

1105
00:46:41.280 --> 00:46:43.679
Well, I think there's always been a resistance or at least there

1106
00:46:43.679 --> 00:46:44.699
was resistance at this time.

1107
00:46:44.760 --> 00:46:47.400
They have to have the body shake when a monster was talking.

1108
00:46:47.460 --> 00:46:48.719
Like the cybermen tend to do.

1109
00:46:48.780 --> 00:46:52.380
So that is one of the things that happens with the Silurians, but

1110
00:46:52.380 --> 00:46:55.679
also they have the rubber mouth that the actor is able to

1111
00:46:55.679 --> 00:46:58.679
manipulate using a pair.

1112
00:46:58.739 --> 00:47:00.300
They manipulate with their tongue.

1113
00:47:00.420 --> 00:47:04.260
So their actual mouths kind of move, not properly, not fully not

1114
00:47:04.260 --> 00:47:05.400
in sync. story.

1115
00:47:05.460 --> 00:47:06.599
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1116
00:47:06.659 --> 00:47:07.920
Yeah, they're not just wobbling.

1117
00:47:07.980 --> 00:47:09.179
They're faces.

1118
00:47:09.179 --> 00:47:11.219
They fight their lips. yeah Yeah.

1119
00:47:11.280 --> 00:47:12.539
So they do look like they're talking.

1120
00:47:12.599 --> 00:47:16.019
So clearly they're just there because like Doctor Who can't really

1121
00:47:16.019 --> 00:47:20.760
do monsters at this point or sort of proper monsters whose mouths

1122
00:47:20.760 --> 00:47:21.659
move.

1123
00:47:21.719 --> 00:47:24.840
Even in Cold War in series 7, it's kind of shocking that you have

1124
00:47:24.840 --> 00:47:28.619
the ice warrior whose lips move, like we have CGI, mouth

1125
00:47:28.619 --> 00:47:29.340
movements.

1126
00:47:29.400 --> 00:47:32.820
The reason the ud have the tentacles, you know, in the 21st

1127
00:47:32.820 --> 00:47:35.880
century is so that they can talk without having to sort of

1128
00:47:35.880 --> 00:47:37.260
synchronise their mouths.

1129
00:47:37.380 --> 00:47:40.860
So it's understandable in the 80s they can't achieve that.

1130
00:47:40.920 --> 00:47:43.860
But there was a solution to it in the 70s that was vastly better

1131
00:47:43.860 --> 00:47:47.280
than everyone should just talk slowly while a flashing light

1132
00:47:47.280 --> 00:47:48.780
goes...

1133
00:47:48.780 --> 00:47:52.619
Well, I was saying earlier about the collision between wanting to

1134
00:47:52.619 --> 00:47:56.400
make the masks and the costumes look more detailed and like look

1135
00:47:56.400 --> 00:47:57.059
better on screen.

1136
00:47:57.119 --> 00:48:00.059
But then failing to be able to animate them properly.

1137
00:48:00.119 --> 00:48:02.579
So the whole production looks like Solurians.

1138
00:48:02.639 --> 00:48:03.239
It's static.

1139
00:48:03.300 --> 00:48:08.280
It's just there on screen and not moving and all the good things

1140
00:48:08.280 --> 00:48:11.880
are swept up in that and the overall impression you take away is

1141
00:48:11.880 --> 00:48:15.599
of a bad piece of television when actually for quite a lot of it.

1142
00:48:15.659 --> 00:48:18.360
It's a good piece of television, it's just ruined by these

1143
00:48:18.360 --> 00:48:21.659
terrible set pieces and moments that don't work.

1144
00:48:21.719 --> 00:48:25.739
Yeah, I, like, we've been talking like forever long we've been

1145
00:48:25.739 --> 00:48:28.860
talking now, and I think you leave the impression that we don't

1146
00:48:28.860 --> 00:48:29.340
like this.

1147
00:48:29.400 --> 00:48:30.900
I mean, you may not.

1148
00:48:31.019 --> 00:48:33.900
But I still liked watching it.

1149
00:48:33.900 --> 00:48:37.079
And despite these, and I still like watching it.

1150
00:48:37.139 --> 00:48:40.079
And despite its failings and certain things, I still enjoy it.

1151
00:48:40.139 --> 00:48:42.719
But it could have been so much better, as I think, what we're

1152
00:48:42.719 --> 00:48:43.079
talking about.

1153
00:48:43.139 --> 00:48:43.980
Well, I agree with you, sir.

1154
00:48:43.980 --> 00:48:47.639
It's a subpar. it's a subpar story, but it's not, it's not the

1155
00:48:47.639 --> 00:48:50.099
sort of the time flight that I think some people make it out to

1156
00:48:50.099 --> 00:48:50.280
be.

1157
00:48:50.340 --> 00:48:53.340
No, it's definitely got lots to recommend it, which time flight

1158
00:48:53.340 --> 00:48:53.940
does not.

1159
00:48:54.000 --> 00:48:57.960
It's just that it's another in the increasing list of Doctor Who's

1160
00:48:57.960 --> 00:49:01.980
failed productions throughout the 1980s and you can't have that.

1161
00:49:02.039 --> 00:49:05.820
The general public takes away from Doctor Who, that it is, as much

1162
00:49:05.820 --> 00:49:09.420
as it's not, a failed production and that kills the series.

1163
00:49:09.480 --> 00:49:11.699
The one thing we haven't talked about, which is, I think, also

1164
00:49:11.699 --> 00:49:15.300
less successful about this story, are generally the performances

1165
00:49:15.300 --> 00:49:18.360
which I think the guest cast, as a rule, give pretty bad

1166
00:49:18.360 --> 00:49:20.340
performances with one or 2 exceptions.

1167
00:49:20.400 --> 00:49:22.980
But I don't think they've got much to go on with.

1168
00:49:23.039 --> 00:49:26.579
And I think, so I want to push back against the time flight thing

1169
00:49:26.579 --> 00:49:29.460
because I think time flight is clearly bad in all sorts of ways

1170
00:49:29.460 --> 00:49:34.260
and it fails as a production in a way that this doesn't, but it's

1171
00:49:34.260 --> 00:49:36.360
not attempting to do something so dull.

1172
00:49:36.420 --> 00:49:39.539
It's attempting to do something that the show could never do in a

1173
00:49:39.539 --> 00:49:40.199
1000000 years.

1174
00:49:40.260 --> 00:49:43.380
Again, it's a problem of scale trying to achieve too much.

1175
00:49:43.440 --> 00:49:47.579
But it's trying to do something weird and imaginative and

1176
00:49:47.579 --> 00:49:51.360
something, you know, it's a show that includes characters from the

1177
00:49:51.360 --> 00:49:56.039
present day who kind of interact in a recognisable way in all

1178
00:49:56.039 --> 00:49:56.760
sorts of ways.

1179
00:49:56.820 --> 00:50:01.920
Whereas this, everyone just declaims everyone's talking about

1180
00:50:01.920 --> 00:50:03.059
their job.

1181
00:50:03.119 --> 00:50:09.059
It is just basically the story of a bunch of people invade the

1182
00:50:09.059 --> 00:50:09.480
base.

1183
00:50:09.539 --> 00:50:13.079
They all shoot each other until we poison one side of them and

1184
00:50:13.079 --> 00:50:13.860
then it ends.

1185
00:50:13.920 --> 00:50:17.099
There's nothing imaginative about this.

1186
00:50:17.159 --> 00:50:20.760
There's nothing that we didn't do better 2 years ago in earth

1187
00:50:20.760 --> 00:50:21.420
shock.

1188
00:50:21.480 --> 00:50:24.780
Earthshock had characters, you know, like Earthshock had

1189
00:50:24.780 --> 00:50:25.980
characters in it.

1190
00:50:26.039 --> 00:50:32.099
Who can say anything about Vorsak as a person or Buick or Preston

1191
00:50:32.099 --> 00:50:34.619
apart from the fact that she has incredible hair?

1192
00:50:34.679 --> 00:50:36.599
That's my line.

1193
00:50:36.659 --> 00:50:38.099
I'm going to say stop.

1194
00:50:38.159 --> 00:50:41.099
She's got incredible hair and makeup and she looks good.

1195
00:50:41.159 --> 00:50:41.760
She does look great.

1196
00:50:41.820 --> 00:50:44.159
That's why, when Nathan said that, he looked very pointed.

1197
00:50:45.360 --> 00:50:49.500
I don't think we're going to argue the relative quality or lack

1198
00:50:49.500 --> 00:50:53.039
thereof time flight and worries of the deep because it's a losing

1199
00:50:53.039 --> 00:50:53.340
argument.

1200
00:50:53.400 --> 00:50:54.420
No, I will.

1201
00:50:54.480 --> 00:50:57.300
Warriors of the Deep is by far a better production than Timeline.

1202
00:50:57.360 --> 00:51:02.280
But I think there are some dimensions along which time flight is

1203
00:51:02.280 --> 00:51:02.579
better.

1204
00:51:02.639 --> 00:51:04.559
Of course, it does succeed better in some way.

1205
00:51:04.619 --> 00:51:06.480
There are some dimensions on which underworld is better than

1206
00:51:06.480 --> 00:51:06.719
this.

1207
00:51:06.840 --> 00:51:10.079
Going back to what I was saying about scale, time flight is

1208
00:51:10.079 --> 00:51:12.360
another failed production for Doctor Who.

1209
00:51:12.420 --> 00:51:15.059
It's one of the earliest ones in the 1980s that just doesn't

1210
00:51:15.059 --> 00:51:15.300
work.

1211
00:51:15.360 --> 00:51:18.059
And the problem, again, was failure of imagination.

1212
00:51:18.119 --> 00:51:20.699
As you said, Simon, when faced with the fact that they had to do

1213
00:51:20.699 --> 00:51:24.300
that heath on prehistoric earth in the corner of the studio, it

1214
00:51:24.300 --> 00:51:25.980
needed a wholesale rethink.

1215
00:51:25.980 --> 00:51:28.199
Let's find the money to go to Ealing.

1216
00:51:28.260 --> 00:51:31.019
If we can't do that, let's turn the lights down, let's turn up the

1217
00:51:31.019 --> 00:51:31.800
wind machine.

1218
00:51:31.860 --> 00:51:35.460
Let's just imagine, add a soundscape.

1219
00:51:35.519 --> 00:51:37.199
We needed to imagine it differently.

1220
00:51:37.260 --> 00:51:41.159
As it is, it's all there. floodlit in a corner of TC6 or

1221
00:51:41.159 --> 00:51:41.400
whatever.

1222
00:51:41.460 --> 00:51:45.179
I've often said that the bad directors on Doctor Who are bad, not

1223
00:51:45.179 --> 00:51:48.000
just for that kind of thing, but also just because they shoot

1224
00:51:48.000 --> 00:51:51.599
everything as if all the sets and all the costumes are perfectly

1225
00:51:51.599 --> 00:51:52.199
realised.

1226
00:51:52.260 --> 00:51:53.280
Yeah, right.

1227
00:51:53.280 --> 00:51:55.679
And all of the monster costumes.

1228
00:51:55.739 --> 00:52:01.019
Whereas the good directors realise that they are not 100% realise

1229
00:52:01.019 --> 00:52:03.719
and so they find every way they can to obscure them to hide them

1230
00:52:03.719 --> 00:52:07.679
to... reason why people don't associate the caves around us aren't

1231
00:52:07.679 --> 00:52:10.980
equality wise with its worst aspect, which is the magma creature.

1232
00:52:11.039 --> 00:52:13.739
It's because Graham Harper is faced with having to use this

1233
00:52:13.739 --> 00:52:15.539
creature and it's not very successful.

1234
00:52:15.599 --> 00:52:19.860
And so he does everything he can to not put in centre stage.

1235
00:52:19.920 --> 00:52:20.280
Yeah.

1236
00:52:20.280 --> 00:52:23.039
And which pen and you just get a full front on shot, and you'd be

1237
00:52:23.039 --> 00:52:25.559
seeing there going, uh, and it's half its head would probably be

1238
00:52:25.559 --> 00:52:26.519
slightly to one side.

1239
00:52:53.579 --> 00:52:56.159
Well, that's all the time we had for this week.

1240
00:52:56.219 --> 00:53:00.000
We'll be back next week to watch the Dodger encountering Sill in

1241
00:53:00.000 --> 00:53:04.019
an exciting new set of space corridors in Mind Wharp.

1242
00:53:04.199 --> 00:53:07.920
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts

1243
00:53:07.920 --> 00:53:11.699
and you can keep up with us on our website, 500-year diary.com

1244
00:53:11.699 --> 00:53:15.000
where you'll find our social media links, as well as links to all

1245
00:53:15.000 --> 00:53:19.019
of our other podcasts, including our other Doctor Who podcasts

1246
00:53:19.019 --> 00:53:22.679
Flight through Entirety, and the 2nd great and bountiful human

1247
00:53:22.679 --> 00:53:23.099
empire.

1248
00:53:23.460 --> 00:53:27.719
Until next time, can you please let the paint dry on the pantomime

1249
00:53:27.719 --> 00:53:29.699
horse before sending it into battle?

1250
00:53:29.760 --> 00:53:32.099
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

1251
00:53:32.159 --> 00:53:33.599
See you soon.

1252
00:53:34.980 --> 00:53:37.260
They really should have been another way.

1253
00:53:49.320 --> 00:53:53.219
That was 500-year diary, starring Todd Bealby, Nathan Bottomley

1254
00:53:53.219 --> 00:53:54.719
Peter Griffiths, and Simon Moore.

1255
00:53:54.780 --> 00:53:57.420
The theme was composed by Cameron Lamb.

1256
00:53:57.480 --> 00:54:01.619
This episode, a full front on shot, was recorded on the 18th of

1257
00:54:01.619 --> 00:54:04.920
May, 2025, and released on the 1st of June.

1258
00:54:04.980 --> 00:54:09.840
We're just over halfway through this season of 500 year diary, but

1259
00:54:09.840 --> 00:54:12.719
Doctor Who season 2 has now reached its end.

1260
00:54:12.780 --> 00:54:17.039
If you want to hear what we thought of the reality war, tune in to

1261
00:54:17.039 --> 00:54:20.039
the 2nd great and bountiful Human Empire on Monday.

1262
00:54:20.159 --> 00:54:21.239
We'll see you there.

1263
00:54:33.300 --> 00:54:36.360
Did you see the zipper in the bottom of the solarine as it

1264
00:54:36.360 --> 00:54:36.780
collapsed?

1265
00:54:37.019 --> 00:54:39.780
I wasn't looking at the Solurian's bottom.

1266
00:54:40.380 --> 00:54:42.840
I was looking at their shoes.

1267
00:54:43.260 --> 00:54:47.340
I was looking at that too, but I just went, are you kidding me?

1268
00:54:47.400 --> 00:54:48.780
Are you actually kidding me?

1269
00:54:48.840 --> 00:54:50.940
I've actually picked that up for the 1st time.

1270
00:54:51.000 --> 00:54:55.139
One of the reasons that the sea devils move so slowly is that they

1271
00:54:55.139 --> 00:55:00.179
have comedy novelty slippers on. like giant bare feet slippers.

1272
00:55:00.239 --> 00:55:05.400
Aren't the Salarians, are they on like the Haunted Nyman platform

1273
00:55:05.400 --> 00:55:05.699
boots?

1274
00:55:05.760 --> 00:55:09.840
No, no, they've kind of got like rubber flares that obscure their

1275
00:55:09.840 --> 00:55:11.820
plim soles, you know.

1276
00:55:12.539 --> 00:55:15.119
But I mean, again, you just don't shoot their feet.

1277
00:55:15.239 --> 00:55:17.039
Like, you don't have to shoot their feet.

1278
00:55:17.099 --> 00:55:20.159
Because it should have been a thing like in the recent episode

1279
00:55:20.159 --> 00:55:25.019
Lucky day where you get to the episode 4 and you're faced with the

1280
00:55:25.019 --> 00:55:27.300
Silurians and the sea devils in the command. going to start the

1281
00:55:27.300 --> 00:55:30.119
war and suddenly they unzip themselves and they're all operatives

1282
00:55:30.119 --> 00:55:31.260
from the opposite.

1283
00:55:33.119 --> 00:55:35.699
They are actually men in rubber.

1284
00:55:36.360 --> 00:55:37.920
Dear.

1285
00:55:37.920 --> 00:55:42.300
I mean, I've got the couple of notes that I have is episode 3 is

1286
00:55:42.300 --> 00:55:44.880
when it starts to really become more properly tedious.

1287
00:55:45.840 --> 00:55:47.760
So you agree with me?

1288
00:55:47.820 --> 00:55:49.380
No, no, no, no, no.

1289
00:55:49.380 --> 00:55:51.420
I don't entirely disagree with you.

1290
00:55:51.420 --> 00:55:54.059
That's where it all begins to fall apart in terms of all the

1291
00:55:54.059 --> 00:55:56.699
action sequences and seeing all of the problems on screen.

1292
00:55:56.820 --> 00:55:58.320
The 1st trip.

1293
00:55:58.380 --> 00:56:01.380
Why don't humans guns do anything?

1294
00:56:01.920 --> 00:56:04.019
It's the traditional...

1295
00:56:04.139 --> 00:56:05.219
Again, it's the way it's being shot.

1296
00:56:05.280 --> 00:56:09.420
You have these giant groups of opposing forces in wide shot, all

1297
00:56:09.420 --> 00:56:12.719
firing at each other and rarely making a hit, even though they

1298
00:56:12.719 --> 00:56:14.940
have targets ranged in front of them.

1299
00:56:15.000 --> 00:56:16.019
It just looks ridiculous.

1300
00:56:16.079 --> 00:56:17.579
This bits the tag.

1301
00:56:17.639 --> 00:56:19.619
I've already thought of the out.

1302
00:56:19.679 --> 00:56:24.420
Yeah, I mean, but you've got, like, some of the guns light up and

1303
00:56:24.420 --> 00:56:27.000
they've got their little plastic guns, you know, like the tiny

1304
00:56:27.000 --> 00:56:30.059
little plastic guns that they all hold sort of rather camply.

1305
00:56:30.119 --> 00:56:31.619
Like, no one holds them like these one.

1306
00:56:31.679 --> 00:56:33.179
CDs on the front.

1307
00:56:33.239 --> 00:56:34.079
No, no.

1308
00:56:34.139 --> 00:56:35.699
So the ones with the CDs on the front.

1309
00:56:35.760 --> 00:56:39.480
That's clearly an attempt to redo the C devils ones, which were

1310
00:56:39.480 --> 00:56:42.300
great, I think, originally, you know, because they're, they, they

1311
00:56:42.300 --> 00:56:43.199
hold them behind them.

1312
00:56:43.260 --> 00:56:46.320
Yeah, like they're in close up in cliffhangers.

1313
00:56:46.380 --> 00:56:47.699
They live crusting forwards.

1314
00:56:47.760 --> 00:56:48.179
That's awesome.

1315
00:56:48.239 --> 00:56:50.639
But now they're all holding them because they're like these little

1316
00:56:50.639 --> 00:56:52.800
dinky hands. scrub the floor.

1317
00:56:52.860 --> 00:56:54.659
That's what they look like.

1318
00:56:54.840 --> 00:56:56.699
They're so cute.

1319
00:56:56.699 --> 00:56:58.260
I think they got it looking so white.

1320
00:56:58.980 --> 00:57:04.139
And then, and then, but the humans guns do literally nothing.

1321
00:57:04.199 --> 00:57:07.079
They have no recoil, no beam comes out of them.

1322
00:57:07.139 --> 00:57:08.940
There's no explosions, there's nothing.

1323
00:57:09.000 --> 00:57:10.679
They're just pointing them at people.

1324
00:57:10.739 --> 00:57:14.760
Turlo has suddenly become a more accurate shot than any of the...

1325
00:57:15.599 --> 00:57:17.219
Oh my god.

1326
00:57:17.340 --> 00:57:19.980
And that's the other thing that really struck me is I don't

1327
00:57:19.980 --> 00:57:22.559
understand why these 3 people are travelling together at all.

1328
00:57:23.159 --> 00:57:25.500
Yeah, why are they all travelling together?

1329
00:57:25.559 --> 00:57:26.519
Because they are.

1330
00:57:26.579 --> 00:57:28.500
They don't like one another.

1331
00:57:28.559 --> 00:57:30.420
No, I think Tegan.

1332
00:57:30.480 --> 00:57:31.500
No, no, that's not true.

1333
00:57:31.559 --> 00:57:33.780
I think it's quite clear that the doctor and Tegan are fond of

1334
00:57:33.780 --> 00:57:34.079
each other.

1335
00:57:34.139 --> 00:57:36.420
It's quite clear that Turlo has a great respect for the doctor.

1336
00:57:36.420 --> 00:57:39.420
And Tegan and Turlo have like a brother-sister relationship.

1337
00:57:39.480 --> 00:57:41.280
Like a sort of a bickering brother and sister-in-law.

1338
00:57:41.340 --> 00:57:43.739
And in the actual thing.

1339
00:57:43.800 --> 00:57:45.960
Where does any of that sort of appear?

1340
00:57:46.019 --> 00:57:47.099
Do you know what I mean?

1341
00:57:47.159 --> 00:57:51.420
Because you've got Janet doing her sort of Janet face when, hey

1342
00:57:51.420 --> 00:57:54.000
wish me luck and she just goes, oh, yes, you.

1343
00:57:54.059 --> 00:57:57.599
You know, like, like, it's absolutely Janet reaction rather than a

1344
00:57:57.599 --> 00:57:58.860
Tegan reaction, I think.

1345
00:57:58.980 --> 00:58:03.119
Like, they're just all kind of angry at each other all the time.

1346
00:58:03.179 --> 00:58:04.320
Face it, Tegan.

1347
00:58:04.380 --> 00:58:05.099
He's dead.

1348
00:58:05.159 --> 00:58:06.300
He's drowned.

1349
00:58:06.420 --> 00:58:08.099
I love that.

1350
00:58:08.159 --> 00:58:09.539
Ratcliffhanger.

1351
00:58:09.599 --> 00:58:11.099
The doctor's falling into some water.

1352
00:58:11.159 --> 00:58:12.179
Face it, Tigger.

1353
00:58:12.239 --> 00:58:13.139
He's drowned.

1354
00:58:13.260 --> 00:58:15.239
Yeah, it takes 3 seconds to drown.

1355
00:58:15.360 --> 00:58:18.900
But can I just say, though, going back to our original comments

1356
00:58:18.900 --> 00:58:21.659
how brilliant that sequence, he's been doing a backbook or a stunt

1357
00:58:21.659 --> 00:58:23.639
doing a black over the thing.

1358
00:58:23.699 --> 00:58:25.260
When that was on in 1984.

1359
00:58:25.440 --> 00:58:25.920
Yeah, yeah.

1360
00:58:25.920 --> 00:58:28.920
I thought that was, I thought, we've arrived in the future.

1361
00:58:28.980 --> 00:58:31.260
You know, You didn't notice the wall.

1362
00:58:32.280 --> 00:58:35.579
No, no, no, not on a 43 cm.

1363
00:58:35.639 --> 00:58:39.719
It's something that could be achieved because not only do they

1364
00:58:39.719 --> 00:58:40.679
have great flats.

1365
00:58:40.739 --> 00:58:44.219
So the set looks good over that BBC swimming pool at Shepparton or

1366
00:58:44.219 --> 00:58:44.400
whatever.

1367
00:58:44.460 --> 00:58:45.420
Yeah, what is it?

1368
00:58:45.420 --> 00:58:46.440
It's a Shepparton, is it?

1369
00:58:46.500 --> 00:58:49.320
Shepperson, yeah, because they couldn't use the BBC internal one

1370
00:58:49.320 --> 00:58:50.820
for some election related reason.

1371
00:58:50.940 --> 00:58:53.159
Do you think it's any election?

1372
00:58:53.280 --> 00:58:55.139
Yeah, they were dunking Margaret Thatcher in there.

1373
00:58:55.619 --> 00:58:58.079
Labour was CSD.

1374
00:58:58.260 --> 00:59:01.019
It's because it's shot on single camera.

1375
00:59:01.079 --> 00:59:03.059
And so you can pull it apart.

1376
00:59:03.119 --> 00:59:04.800
It's something which can be achieved.

1377
00:59:04.860 --> 00:59:05.820
And so it looks good.

1378
00:59:05.880 --> 00:59:08.820
And can I just say that bit where the doctor kicks the guard in

1379
00:59:08.820 --> 00:59:10.380
the face is quite confronted.

1380
00:59:10.440 --> 00:59:10.860
Yes.

1381
00:59:10.920 --> 00:59:11.579
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1382
00:59:11.639 --> 00:59:12.360
Yeah.

1383
00:59:12.420 --> 00:59:14.039
I mean, again, that's stupid as well.

1384
00:59:14.099 --> 00:59:15.119
Like, why does he do that?

1385
00:59:15.179 --> 00:59:17.039
But I do think there is affection there.

1386
00:59:17.099 --> 00:59:20.519
The doctor does want Tegan, not, you know, to hide in that, and

1387
00:59:20.519 --> 00:59:24.000
Turlow is desperate to get them out of the airlock and, you know

1388
00:59:24.000 --> 00:59:28.980
and somehow Tegan walks away from having a huge door fall on a leg

1389
00:59:28.980 --> 00:59:29.940
without it being broke.

1390
00:59:30.000 --> 00:59:32.519
No, she is...

1391
00:59:32.579 --> 00:59:36.300
Hobbling, but it's... slightly... slightly cool star.

1392
00:59:36.360 --> 00:59:38.280
When the door falls, does it break Tegan's legal?

1393
00:59:38.340 --> 00:59:39.059
break the door?

1394
00:59:40.500 --> 00:59:45.000
It's soft and kind of, you know, bouncy.

1395
00:59:45.059 --> 00:59:47.340
Yeah, it's like a koala mattress.

1396
00:59:47.400 --> 00:59:47.760
Yeah.

1397
00:59:47.820 --> 00:59:48.539
Memory foam.

1398
00:59:48.599 --> 00:59:49.380
Memory fan.

1399
00:59:49.440 --> 00:59:51.119
Gosh, this story looked good on paper.

1400
00:59:51.780 --> 00:59:54.000
I'm not convinced it did.

1401
00:59:54.119 --> 00:59:55.619
J&T's whiteboard.

1402
00:59:55.679 --> 00:59:57.239
Let's say doctor's wife at the bottom.

1403
00:59:57.300 --> 00:59:59.940
Thank God Johnny Byrne didn't come back.

1404
01:00:00.000 --> 01:00:00.960
Well.

1405
01:00:00.960 --> 01:00:02.340
He nearly did, didn't he?

1406
01:00:02.400 --> 01:00:04.619
No, I think this was this Guardians of prophecy.

1407
01:00:04.679 --> 01:00:06.179
Oh, that was amazing, was it?

1408
01:00:06.239 --> 01:00:07.980
No, 20, wasn't it?

1409
01:00:07.980 --> 01:00:08.400
23?

1410
01:00:08.400 --> 01:00:08.760
23?

1411
01:00:09.539 --> 01:00:15.119
All I will say is a final word is that the base commander is no

1412
01:00:15.119 --> 01:00:16.380
Ronald Lehunt.

1413
01:00:16.440 --> 01:00:18.179
No, so few people are.

1414
01:00:18.239 --> 01:00:20.039
The briefcases.

1415
01:00:20.039 --> 01:00:20.400
Yes.

1416
01:00:21.119 --> 01:00:23.460
The costumes, they were a little better.

1417
01:00:23.519 --> 01:00:25.019
But he's not very good.

1418
01:00:25.079 --> 01:00:27.300
Well, it's the thing we were saying about the cast They seem to be

1419
01:00:27.300 --> 01:00:30.119
straitjacketed by those ridiculous futuristic costumes.

1420
01:00:30.179 --> 01:00:33.179
They're so buttoned up.

1421
01:00:33.239 --> 01:00:34.739
No, they don't look too buttoned up.

1422
01:00:34.800 --> 01:00:38.039
They look more like, they kind of look more like shell suits, don't

1423
01:00:38.039 --> 01:00:38.219
they?

1424
01:00:38.280 --> 01:00:40.199
Oh, yeah, they just like, it's a good thing.

1425
01:00:40.260 --> 01:00:41.280
Yes, they say in a good way.

1426
01:00:41.820 --> 01:00:44.219
They all about to board a bus to Hull or something.

1427
01:00:44.280 --> 01:00:45.239
Exactly.

1428
01:00:45.300 --> 01:00:49.199
And also the fact that Maddox in 2084, he doesn't even have a USBC

1429
01:00:49.199 --> 01:00:50.340
plug on his head.

1430
01:00:50.400 --> 01:00:52.019
He's got some great big sort of...

1431
01:00:52.079 --> 01:00:53.639
That's so good as well, sorry.

1432
01:00:54.960 --> 01:00:57.239
I'll just bleep that out.

1433
01:00:57.300 --> 01:00:59.940
You say fuck in this. the most reason one.

1434
01:01:00.000 --> 01:01:01.260
Yes, but that was deliberate.

1435
01:01:01.320 --> 01:01:01.980
No, no, no.

1436
01:01:02.039 --> 01:01:03.960
I put the robot over it.

1437
01:01:04.019 --> 01:01:06.719
He doesn't even have he doesn't even have a USBC plug on his

1438
01:01:06.719 --> 01:01:06.960
head.

1439
01:01:07.019 --> 01:01:08.460
But it's not just that.

1440
01:01:08.519 --> 01:01:12.300
I mean, the whole point of that is that it's got to feel like it

1441
01:01:12.300 --> 01:01:15.719
goes into his head because that's kind of part of the horror of

1442
01:01:15.719 --> 01:01:15.900
it.

1443
01:01:15.960 --> 01:01:19.199
You know, like he's had this surgery, that links him to the

1444
01:01:19.199 --> 01:01:22.199
computer in a way that's sort of really invasive and unnatural, and

1445
01:01:22.199 --> 01:01:23.579
now he's got these plugs in his head.

1446
01:01:23.639 --> 01:01:26.460
But he said the plugs are sort of just stuck to the outside of his

1447
01:01:26.460 --> 01:01:28.260
head because you can't. it looks reasonably okay.

1448
01:01:28.320 --> 01:01:29.820
Yeah, no, I think it's...

1449
01:01:29.820 --> 01:01:32.460
Along the cops and what we need... look marvellous and bespoke.

1450
01:01:32.519 --> 01:01:32.940
They really do.

1451
01:01:32.940 --> 01:01:36.539
With a little the little the drive, the the disk drive that goes

1452
01:01:36.539 --> 01:01:38.280
down, around bit of jutters.

1453
01:01:38.280 --> 01:01:40.500
Yeah, all along with tech, Dr. Solar use.

1454
01:01:40.559 --> 01:01:41.159
This looks really great.

1455
01:01:41.940 --> 01:01:47.400
The thing that the light beam thing looks good.

1456
01:01:47.460 --> 01:01:49.619
And that's the other reference we haven't made.

1457
01:01:49.679 --> 01:01:52.380
The thing that they blind Ian McCulloch with.

1458
01:01:52.440 --> 01:01:55.320
And that's the other thing that we haven't referenced yet, is that

1459
01:01:55.320 --> 01:01:58.079
there is, with Maddox's programming, a reference to Manchurian

1460
01:01:58.079 --> 01:01:58.619
candidate.

1461
01:01:58.679 --> 01:02:01.920
So, I mean, which is interesting because Mangerian candidate is

1462
01:02:01.920 --> 01:02:05.280
either well before or well after the main condition.

1463
01:02:05.340 --> 01:02:07.440
But nevertheless, it's that idea.

1464
01:02:07.500 --> 01:02:09.539
It adds into the Cold War thing.

1465
01:02:09.599 --> 01:02:11.460
So there are little bits that they are trying to do with the Cold

1466
01:02:11.460 --> 01:02:11.820
War.

1467
01:02:11.880 --> 01:02:14.820
But if you cut out half the silurian rubbish in the 1st 2 episodes

1468
01:02:14.820 --> 01:02:18.900
and just don't have them at all, and you make it a Cold War spy

1469
01:02:18.900 --> 01:02:22.380
story, which then turns into the silurians and sea devils, I just

1470
01:02:22.380 --> 01:02:25.619
think that might have been, might have been a better story and not

1471
01:02:25.619 --> 01:02:29.699
have all of these endless dialogue sequences between the silurians

1472
01:02:29.699 --> 01:02:30.719
in their underseen.

1473
01:02:30.780 --> 01:02:34.739
Yeah, I don't think we could have lasted out until, like, I think

1474
01:02:34.739 --> 01:02:36.300
they needed to come in at the end of episode one.

1475
01:02:36.360 --> 01:02:37.800
Okay, even episode one.

1476
01:02:37.860 --> 01:02:41.340
But the point, my point being, not seeing one, because they're

1477
01:02:41.340 --> 01:02:42.719
basically there...

1478
01:02:42.719 --> 01:02:43.440
Exactly, 2 minutes here.

1479
01:02:43.500 --> 01:02:45.659
Because it's so promising in that early sequence where the

1480
01:02:45.659 --> 01:02:47.579
satellite's going to attack the TARDIS.

1481
01:02:47.639 --> 01:02:51.000
I mean, it's quite jazzy and interesting and all this is this

1482
01:02:51.000 --> 01:02:52.139
is...

1483
01:02:52.199 --> 01:02:55.199
And the earth has gone horrible or bad in some way, but we never

1484
01:02:55.199 --> 01:02:57.480
follow up. knocked off course is always exciting.

1485
01:02:57.539 --> 01:02:58.320
It's always exciting.

1486
01:02:58.380 --> 01:02:59.639
Yeah, no, no, there's problems.

1487
01:02:59.699 --> 01:03:01.800
Just in general, there should have been another way.

1488
01:03:01.860 --> 01:03:03.000
Yes, exactly.

1489
01:03:03.119 --> 01:03:03.539
All of this.

1490
01:03:03.599 --> 01:03:06.300
There just should have been another way and any other way they

1491
01:03:06.300 --> 01:03:08.460
would have chosen would have made it better.

1492
01:03:08.519 --> 01:03:12.239
As it is, it is quite good in places, but it's just not good

1493
01:03:12.239 --> 01:03:12.599
enough.

1494
01:03:12.659 --> 01:03:15.000
And in some places it's actively terrible.

1495
01:03:15.059 --> 01:03:19.619
And the note that I had here is, as you've said earlier, it is the

1496
01:03:19.619 --> 01:03:21.900
beginning of the 1985 cancellation of the show.

1497
01:03:21.960 --> 01:03:22.500
Absolutely.

1498
01:03:23.460 --> 01:03:25.679
Happy note. let's end it there