WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-05-03 at 08:42:33

1
00:00:33.060 --> 00:00:37.679
Hello, Delissa, and welcome back to 500 Year Diary, the only

2
00:00:37.679 --> 00:00:41.759
Doctor Who podcast that exists as a latent mental force coming out

3
00:00:41.759 --> 00:00:42.780
of your AirPods.

4
00:00:42.899 --> 00:00:44.399
I'm Nathan.

5
00:00:44.460 --> 00:00:45.539
I'm Kate.

6
00:00:45.600 --> 00:00:47.460
I'm Peter, and I'm Simon.

7
00:00:47.520 --> 00:00:50.520
It's the 17th of January, 1983.

8
00:00:50.759 --> 00:00:54.179
It's been just short of a year since the doctor captured the

9
00:00:54.179 --> 00:00:57.240
bottom half of the Mara in a circle of mirrors, and tonight

10
00:00:57.240 --> 00:01:01.740
6700000 people have tuned in to see what it's been up to in the

11
00:01:01.740 --> 00:01:02.280
meantime.

12
00:01:02.340 --> 00:01:07.079
But does the Mara have an afterlife away from the Edenic forests

13
00:01:07.079 --> 00:01:08.040
of Diva Loca?

14
00:01:08.099 --> 00:01:11.340
Let's find out as we discuss snake dance.

15
00:01:29.519 --> 00:01:34.859
All right, so we're here really to talk about the Mara in their

16
00:01:34.859 --> 00:01:37.799
second appearance on Doctor Who, but I don't think we can really

17
00:01:37.799 --> 00:01:42.420
do that properly without spending a little bit of time doing

18
00:01:42.420 --> 00:01:48.599
kinder versus snake dance, not necessarily ranking them, but just

19
00:01:48.599 --> 00:01:51.420
talking about how different they are.

20
00:01:51.480 --> 00:01:56.640
They are different in that I think Kinder is a really great script

21
00:01:56.640 --> 00:01:59.280
mounted really successfully.

22
00:01:59.340 --> 00:02:03.420
And this may be the acme of all Doctor Who, in its interesting

23
00:02:03.420 --> 00:02:06.480
ideas, married to extremely pedestrian execution.

24
00:02:06.540 --> 00:02:09.120
Yeah, I think that's probably fair.

25
00:02:09.180 --> 00:02:13.680
Fiona Cumming seems to do a great job with actors.

26
00:02:13.800 --> 00:02:15.120
She casts well.

27
00:02:15.180 --> 00:02:17.460
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. cast extremely well.

28
00:02:17.520 --> 00:02:19.620
The guest cast here are really quite extraordinary.

29
00:02:19.680 --> 00:02:22.199
We had a great guest cast on Kinder, but we have an extraordinary

30
00:02:22.199 --> 00:02:22.979
guest cast here.

31
00:02:23.039 --> 00:02:30.900
But even sort of the fairly basic low level action here tends to

32
00:02:30.900 --> 00:02:32.879
be pretty shoddily mounted.

33
00:02:32.939 --> 00:02:36.419
Yeah, I was going to say, it's not nearly as well executed as

34
00:02:36.419 --> 00:02:38.939
Kinder, and I'm not just saying that from the production point of

35
00:02:38.939 --> 00:02:42.180
view, I actually think that the idea is not as well executed in

36
00:02:42.180 --> 00:02:42.960
the script either.

37
00:02:43.020 --> 00:02:47.219
And I think right from the get go, the way the story starts with

38
00:02:47.219 --> 00:02:48.900
so many scenes in the Tartar.

39
00:02:48.960 --> 00:02:49.259
Yeah.

40
00:02:49.319 --> 00:02:54.659
And so many sort of static scenes with Lon and his mother, it

41
00:02:54.659 --> 00:02:57.900
really takes a while to crank up and it never really gets there.

42
00:02:57.960 --> 00:03:01.259
So I think it's not just the fact that it feels very flat visually

43
00:03:01.259 --> 00:03:04.379
from a directorial point of view, but it's also very flat from a

44
00:03:04.379 --> 00:03:04.860
script point of view.

45
00:03:04.919 --> 00:03:06.780
It has no rhythm of storytelling.

46
00:03:06.840 --> 00:03:08.099
It just sort of plops you under.

47
00:03:08.099 --> 00:03:12.539
No shape, cuts between the TARDIS and what's going on on menusa

48
00:03:12.539 --> 00:03:14.099
and there's no buildup.

49
00:03:14.159 --> 00:03:18.060
There's no directorial flair and kind of dropping you into the

50
00:03:18.060 --> 00:03:18.479
story.

51
00:03:18.539 --> 00:03:21.240
You're just watching things happening in the corner of DC one.

52
00:03:21.300 --> 00:03:24.479
Yeah, you're almost like starting halfway through episode one.

53
00:03:24.539 --> 00:03:28.139
Like we haven't had that interesting setup shot where something's

54
00:03:28.139 --> 00:03:30.120
you know, okay, where someone's dies.

55
00:03:30.180 --> 00:03:32.159
A character has 3 lines and then dies or something.

56
00:03:32.219 --> 00:03:34.979
There's no, it's a very, very slow start.

57
00:03:35.039 --> 00:03:37.199
And that's the lack of imagination of the script and also the lack

58
00:03:37.199 --> 00:03:40.620
of imagination of how it's executed because where Tegan is talking

59
00:03:40.620 --> 00:03:41.520
about her dreams.

60
00:03:41.580 --> 00:03:43.919
It's just her lying on a bed.

61
00:03:43.979 --> 00:03:46.800
Like, you get that one level...

62
00:03:46.860 --> 00:03:47.340
Yes.

63
00:03:47.400 --> 00:03:49.979
And you got that lovely shot of her, like, close-up coming up to

64
00:03:49.979 --> 00:03:51.419
the cave, you know, in her dream.

65
00:03:51.479 --> 00:03:52.740
Where are the rest of her dreams?

66
00:03:52.800 --> 00:03:55.259
We don't even have to sort of like an interesting half wipe on the

67
00:03:55.259 --> 00:03:55.500
screen.

68
00:03:55.560 --> 00:03:56.819
We don't have a dimly lit.

69
00:03:56.879 --> 00:03:59.280
We don't have flashing lights or anything. you know what I mean?

70
00:03:59.340 --> 00:04:00.539
It's just people in the Tartars.

71
00:04:00.599 --> 00:04:01.979
This is exactly what I was saying.

72
00:04:02.039 --> 00:04:06.300
It's such pedestrian execution, and it's not fair to the script.

73
00:04:06.360 --> 00:04:10.439
The script has more interesting and colourful imagery going on in

74
00:04:10.439 --> 00:04:13.199
it, but for some reason, it's not translating to the screen very

75
00:04:13.199 --> 00:04:13.620
often.

76
00:04:13.680 --> 00:04:18.600
And I think this is becoming a recurring story of 1980s Doctor Who

77
00:04:18.600 --> 00:04:21.720
where it's basically hit and miss, whether you'll get a good

78
00:04:21.720 --> 00:04:22.139
story.

79
00:04:22.199 --> 00:04:25.980
Mostly you'll get either a good script, which has been executed

80
00:04:25.980 --> 00:04:29.819
fairly poorly, or a fairly poor script, which has had some panache

81
00:04:29.819 --> 00:04:33.120
added to it in the execution, but rarely do you get the alchemy

82
00:04:33.120 --> 00:04:37.259
that we had so often during the 60s and the 70s, where you would

83
00:04:37.259 --> 00:04:39.360
just have a good story well told.

84
00:04:39.779 --> 00:04:44.220
I think there are parallels between Kinder and snake dance.

85
00:04:44.279 --> 00:04:48.240
There's the elderly wise figure who's crucial to defeating

86
00:04:48.240 --> 00:04:48.899
Namara.

87
00:04:48.959 --> 00:04:53.399
And, um, I'm not sure whether Corunna and Shayla are the 2

88
00:04:53.399 --> 00:04:57.000
characters that I should compare, or whether the doctor is the

89
00:04:57.000 --> 00:05:01.079
young learning character that acts as an agent, if you like, for

90
00:05:01.079 --> 00:05:04.199
the elderly wise character in snake dance.

91
00:05:04.259 --> 00:05:06.060
So I thought that was interesting.

92
00:05:06.360 --> 00:05:11.339
I think both of them have this really very, very strong set of

93
00:05:11.339 --> 00:05:12.480
secondary characters.

94
00:05:12.660 --> 00:05:19.139
I mean, both of them are very talky, and Kinder has some rough

95
00:05:19.139 --> 00:05:20.819
moments in the production as well.

96
00:05:20.879 --> 00:05:25.560
I think Grim Wades, a better director of Doctor Who than Fiona

97
00:05:25.560 --> 00:05:27.300
Cumming is, perhaps.

98
00:05:27.360 --> 00:05:29.279
He's better visual director.

99
00:05:29.339 --> 00:05:32.759
Yeah, but, you know, it's still like bringing the Aspadistras out

100
00:05:32.759 --> 00:05:34.860
of the production office and setting them up around television

101
00:05:34.860 --> 00:05:35.879
centre one.

102
00:05:35.939 --> 00:05:39.540
But there's some exciting visuals and some really weird visuals as

103
00:05:39.540 --> 00:05:39.839
well.

104
00:05:39.899 --> 00:05:45.720
This sort of kind of manages some weird visuals, and it has sort

105
00:05:45.720 --> 00:05:50.220
of good use of film, and having that character Dojan on film in

106
00:05:50.220 --> 00:05:51.300
are we in Ealing for that?

107
00:05:51.360 --> 00:05:54.120
It is, actually, I would actually say it's fairly poor use of

108
00:05:54.120 --> 00:05:54.480
film.

109
00:05:54.540 --> 00:05:57.420
If I'd had that film allocation, I would have been putting a

110
00:05:57.420 --> 00:05:58.740
market on film.

111
00:05:58.800 --> 00:05:59.339
Okay.

112
00:05:59.339 --> 00:06:00.720
Or the entrance to the cave.

113
00:06:00.779 --> 00:06:04.079
The entrance to the cave, which is one of the most egregious late

114
00:06:04.079 --> 00:06:07.379
examples, which falls away in production at this time.

115
00:06:07.379 --> 00:06:09.839
You used to be able to get away with it in the 70s, but you can't

116
00:06:09.839 --> 00:06:13.800
now of having a big open air set just erected in the corner of the

117
00:06:13.800 --> 00:06:14.160
studio.

118
00:06:14.220 --> 00:06:15.120
The audience is...

119
00:06:15.120 --> 00:06:16.259
With a white cycling.

120
00:06:16.379 --> 00:06:16.800
Yeah.

121
00:06:16.860 --> 00:06:19.800
One of the things that struck me watching it is how many different

122
00:06:19.800 --> 00:06:21.240
sets there are.

123
00:06:21.540 --> 00:06:29.879
And there is quite a big set in the episode 3 Prison Cell, which

124
00:06:29.879 --> 00:06:31.199
is actually quite well designed.

125
00:06:31.259 --> 00:06:32.220
I think it looks pretty good.

126
00:06:32.339 --> 00:06:34.560
But the most interesting sell.

127
00:06:34.620 --> 00:06:37.680
We've seen in... which is great because we've spent the whole

128
00:06:37.680 --> 00:06:38.160
episode.

129
00:06:38.160 --> 00:06:39.420
The whole damn episode.

130
00:06:40.019 --> 00:06:45.540
But everyone is standing so close together everywhere else and

131
00:06:45.540 --> 00:06:48.899
that scene in the bedroom that you mentioned, Simon.

132
00:06:48.959 --> 00:06:51.540
It's like a tiny corner of the bedroom.

133
00:06:51.600 --> 00:06:52.439
We don't have a whole room.

134
00:06:52.560 --> 00:06:54.839
They're obviously having got the dressing table set up on the

135
00:06:54.839 --> 00:06:55.079
other side.

136
00:06:55.139 --> 00:06:55.680
No, no.

137
00:06:55.680 --> 00:06:57.300
We haven't got another flat of tartar rondles.

138
00:06:57.360 --> 00:07:00.000
We just don't have room for it.

139
00:07:00.060 --> 00:07:03.839
Tegan's bed is extending off between camera one and camera two.

140
00:07:04.560 --> 00:07:07.439
And it just everything is very small.

141
00:07:07.500 --> 00:07:09.180
Everything is very cramped.

142
00:07:09.240 --> 00:07:11.579
I think there are good elements in the set.

143
00:07:11.639 --> 00:07:15.480
I don't think that the designer is doing a terrible job

144
00:07:15.480 --> 00:07:16.259
generally.

145
00:07:16.319 --> 00:07:21.360
He does mention in the making of video that he's not very happy

146
00:07:21.360 --> 00:07:26.040
about the cave mouth set, which is the cave mouth thing, which is

147
00:07:26.040 --> 00:07:27.600
kind of...

148
00:07:27.660 --> 00:07:29.339
Yeah, the cave itself.

149
00:07:29.399 --> 00:07:31.379
It's kind of terrible.

150
00:07:31.439 --> 00:07:35.459
And look at the caves that we had 3 stories ago in Earthshock

151
00:07:35.459 --> 00:07:36.779
which was really great.

152
00:07:36.899 --> 00:07:39.300
Or the following year in Caves of Andrazani.

153
00:07:39.360 --> 00:07:41.519
The eponymous caves.

154
00:07:41.939 --> 00:07:45.540
Here, they're very small, and it's really funny actually to have

155
00:07:45.540 --> 00:07:49.019
Martin Cloons wandering into them and going, hmm, it's very big

156
00:07:49.019 --> 00:07:49.500
isn't it?

157
00:07:50.759 --> 00:07:52.560
Hello.

158
00:07:54.000 --> 00:07:57.060
Actually, do you know what the thing is with those caves is that I

159
00:07:57.060 --> 00:07:58.680
don't get a sense that they're surrounding me?

160
00:07:58.740 --> 00:08:00.899
I get a sense that they are a flat wall.

161
00:08:00.959 --> 00:08:02.819
And that's like what it is.

162
00:08:02.879 --> 00:08:04.379
Production, procedure march.

163
00:08:04.439 --> 00:08:05.279
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

164
00:08:05.339 --> 00:08:06.300
It's all preceding March.

165
00:08:06.420 --> 00:08:09.060
You don't feel like you need cable on either side of you, not just

166
00:08:09.060 --> 00:08:09.660
behind you.

167
00:08:09.720 --> 00:08:11.879
Yes, walk through caves, not a long cave.

168
00:08:11.939 --> 00:08:12.420
Yes, exactly.

169
00:08:12.959 --> 00:08:17.279
I was thinking watching it, how few people there are in this

170
00:08:17.279 --> 00:08:20.579
allegedly big cave during the actual ritual.

171
00:08:20.699 --> 00:08:23.519
And I was thinking, well, this must be the only people who could

172
00:08:23.519 --> 00:08:24.060
get tickets.

173
00:08:24.120 --> 00:08:26.279
We're about select routine people.

174
00:08:26.339 --> 00:08:27.120
Yes, exactly.

175
00:08:27.180 --> 00:08:30.000
Because, I mean, there are quite a few extras in the market

176
00:08:30.000 --> 00:08:30.779
scenes.

177
00:08:30.839 --> 00:08:32.220
Like, I think the market scenes are reasonable.

178
00:08:32.279 --> 00:08:33.299
The sets are bad.

179
00:08:33.360 --> 00:08:38.460
I can't think of Doctor Who attempting to do that sort of thing.

180
00:08:38.519 --> 00:08:39.419
Market eating.

181
00:08:39.539 --> 00:08:40.379
It's been a while.

182
00:08:40.440 --> 00:08:43.139
No, the very 1st thing they should have done when they read the

183
00:08:43.139 --> 00:08:43.440
script.

184
00:08:43.500 --> 00:08:45.120
Yeah, that's what I was thinking.

185
00:08:45.179 --> 00:08:45.720
Yes.

186
00:08:45.779 --> 00:08:48.000
And, you know, 6 more successfully.

187
00:08:48.059 --> 00:08:51.000
The 1st thing I thought when they read the scripts is they should

188
00:08:51.000 --> 00:08:53.879
have made it in indoor market, you can never pull off that kind of

189
00:08:53.879 --> 00:08:56.100
thing because they haven't done anything with the lighting to make

190
00:08:56.100 --> 00:08:57.120
it look like daylight.

191
00:08:57.179 --> 00:08:58.860
They've just turned up the studio light.

192
00:08:58.980 --> 00:08:59.460
Yeah, yeah.

193
00:08:59.519 --> 00:08:59.820
Yeah.

194
00:08:59.879 --> 00:09:02.580
They needed some yellow or so, they still can't really do that, I

195
00:09:02.580 --> 00:09:03.000
think.

196
00:09:03.059 --> 00:09:04.919
To imitate daylight.

197
00:09:04.980 --> 00:09:07.500
It's partly a colour temperature thing, which they just don't

198
00:09:07.500 --> 00:09:07.860
worry about.

199
00:09:07.919 --> 00:09:11.279
But it's also having light coming from basically one place.

200
00:09:11.759 --> 00:09:14.639
Because on a sunny day, the light is coming from a particular

201
00:09:14.639 --> 00:09:15.299
source.

202
00:09:15.360 --> 00:09:18.179
And so you need more kind of actually harsher shadows.

203
00:09:18.240 --> 00:09:18.840
Yeah.

204
00:09:18.840 --> 00:09:20.879
That gives you the effect of that.

205
00:09:20.940 --> 00:09:23.220
But obviously it's a terribly overcast day on menusa.

206
00:09:23.279 --> 00:09:25.139
I mean, you can tell because when you look out the cave mouth when

207
00:09:25.139 --> 00:09:27.120
they're walking to the cave mouth, it's just white from the cycle

208
00:09:27.120 --> 00:09:27.539
arama.

209
00:09:27.600 --> 00:09:30.419
So obviously there's a lot of haze, a lot of industry on Menusa.

210
00:09:30.480 --> 00:09:33.600
And there has been a lot of commentary in the past about the fact

211
00:09:33.600 --> 00:09:37.620
that a lot of 80s Doctor Who's production problems come from the

212
00:09:37.620 --> 00:09:42.120
fact that the lighting, for some reason, is turned up to 100% on

213
00:09:42.120 --> 00:09:46.019
most productions, and this, I think, is a fairly potent example of

214
00:09:46.019 --> 00:09:46.259
that.

215
00:09:46.320 --> 00:09:49.379
Yes, they turn down the lights when they go into the caves.

216
00:09:49.440 --> 00:09:52.139
That's pretty much it everywhere else is floodlit.

217
00:09:55.200 --> 00:09:57.539
It's all too laid back.

218
00:09:57.659 --> 00:10:01.320
If Doctor Who is about talking urgently in corridors in the... needed

219
00:10:01.320 --> 00:10:01.860
some urgency.

220
00:10:01.919 --> 00:10:05.759
The only person talking urgently is Pete Davidson throughout, and

221
00:10:05.759 --> 00:10:08.039
sometimes he's talking too urgently compared to, especially

222
00:10:08.039 --> 00:10:10.679
compared to everybody else. that he's trying to give some energy.

223
00:10:10.740 --> 00:10:13.440
Yes, because everybody, because basically Lon and his mother are

224
00:10:13.440 --> 00:10:14.700
very laid back.

225
00:10:14.759 --> 00:10:16.080
But that is obviously what they're trying to present.

226
00:10:16.139 --> 00:10:18.360
They're trying to prepare this, you know, the idol rich

227
00:10:18.360 --> 00:10:18.539
basically.

228
00:10:18.600 --> 00:10:22.740
Yeah, he's bored and so on and she's just dressing up to go out to

229
00:10:22.740 --> 00:10:23.580
parties and things like that.

230
00:10:23.639 --> 00:10:24.840
They've got nothing to do.

231
00:10:24.899 --> 00:10:26.820
But there's no sense of momentum.

232
00:10:26.879 --> 00:10:28.740
There's no sense of energy in any of those scenes.

233
00:10:28.799 --> 00:10:31.019
And that's why it's just not a good way to start a story.

234
00:10:31.080 --> 00:10:35.460
I have to say, though, that I really like those scenes and I

235
00:10:35.460 --> 00:10:36.600
really like those two.

236
00:10:36.659 --> 00:10:39.419
Yes, but I just don't think it's well placed.

237
00:10:39.480 --> 00:10:40.440
There needed to be another scene.

238
00:10:40.500 --> 00:10:41.580
That's right.

239
00:10:41.639 --> 00:10:46.019
Like if we are regarding this as kind of fiercer or whatever, or

240
00:10:46.019 --> 00:10:49.200
we're cutting it slack because of the type of production it is.

241
00:10:49.259 --> 00:10:52.019
I think having those 2 who are extraordinary.

242
00:10:52.080 --> 00:10:56.759
I think the woman who plays Tanha has a good claim to be one of

243
00:10:56.759 --> 00:11:00.539
the very, very best guest actors of the 1980s.

244
00:11:00.600 --> 00:11:03.120
And Martin Cloons is amazing.

245
00:11:03.179 --> 00:11:03.960
Great.

246
00:11:04.019 --> 00:11:05.279
He's so good.

247
00:11:05.340 --> 00:11:09.120
He's very unfairly lampooned because they're always showing that

248
00:11:09.120 --> 00:11:13.080
clip where he comes in in his regalia in episode 4 on kind of

249
00:11:13.080 --> 00:11:15.419
humourous shows in Britain.

250
00:11:15.480 --> 00:11:16.860
When he was on a panel show.

251
00:11:16.919 --> 00:11:17.519
That's right.

252
00:11:17.580 --> 00:11:20.820
Look where men behaving badly, Star Martin Clunes started.

253
00:11:20.879 --> 00:11:24.000
And it's really unfair because he is so good in the production.

254
00:11:24.059 --> 00:11:27.419
And the costume that he wears for the rest of the thing is just

255
00:11:27.419 --> 00:11:29.340
astoundingly great, isn't it?

256
00:11:29.460 --> 00:11:30.659
Let me look at you.

257
00:11:32.759 --> 00:11:35.100
He's so good.

258
00:11:35.100 --> 00:11:37.740
And just the look of him as well, because he's got those lips.

259
00:11:37.799 --> 00:11:41.519
He's wearing makeup, like he's wearing lipstick of some kind as

260
00:11:41.519 --> 00:11:41.820
well.

261
00:11:42.059 --> 00:11:46.200
Well, but I think and partly that's period and it's the 80s and

262
00:11:46.200 --> 00:11:46.620
stuff like that.

263
00:11:46.679 --> 00:11:50.039
And later on he's wearing red eyeliner as the Mara starts to take

264
00:11:50.039 --> 00:11:51.419
over him a little bit.

265
00:11:51.480 --> 00:11:54.600
But there's just something about appetite.

266
00:11:54.659 --> 00:11:57.179
He's also got sort of shark teeth as well.

267
00:11:57.240 --> 00:12:02.580
And because Tahnha's name means thirst. right?

268
00:12:02.639 --> 00:12:06.179
Or desire or something like that.

269
00:12:06.240 --> 00:12:12.419
And both of them, like they want something, they're bored because

270
00:12:12.419 --> 00:12:15.000
there's something that they're not getting they want.

271
00:12:15.059 --> 00:12:15.960
Yeah.

272
00:12:16.019 --> 00:12:19.620
And so and so their boredom is all about sort of frustrated want.

273
00:12:19.679 --> 00:12:24.059
And so, you know, the lips are sensual, the teeth are hungry.

274
00:12:24.120 --> 00:12:27.539
You know, it's a really really good look, I think.

275
00:12:27.600 --> 00:12:31.200
And he's got a baleful gaze in the newest that's on things, that

276
00:12:31.200 --> 00:12:36.299
scene in episode 2 where he's lured by Dugdale to go to his little

277
00:12:36.299 --> 00:12:37.740
shotty little...

278
00:12:38.220 --> 00:12:40.980
I lose those words far too me.

279
00:12:42.120 --> 00:12:47.399
And it's clearly on the pretext of a woman being there for him.

280
00:12:47.460 --> 00:12:50.279
And when he sees Tegan, he walks towards her and says, well, why

281
00:12:50.279 --> 00:12:50.580
not?

282
00:12:50.639 --> 00:12:54.299
And you think like, that's quite strong for Doctor Who in the 80s

283
00:12:54.360 --> 00:12:55.379
extraordinary.

284
00:12:55.440 --> 00:12:59.759
It's brilliantly written and underplayed so that it will get past

285
00:12:59.759 --> 00:13:00.480
a lot of people.

286
00:13:00.840 --> 00:13:03.179
But we all know what's going on.

287
00:13:03.240 --> 00:13:06.059
Well, I didn't when I was 10. sure didn't.

288
00:13:06.179 --> 00:13:08.519
No, she gives him the snake, not the other way around.

289
00:13:10.440 --> 00:13:14.340
I love the mirrors in there, how Tegan is looking at herself in

290
00:13:14.340 --> 00:13:16.919
the distorting mirrors and they're suggesting the distortion of

291
00:13:16.919 --> 00:13:20.399
the self, but her reflection is being distorted.

292
00:13:20.460 --> 00:13:24.779
But then she sees the skull version of the Mara looking back at

293
00:13:24.779 --> 00:13:27.779
her and herself is being distorted and this is what it's being

294
00:13:27.779 --> 00:13:28.500
distorted into.

295
00:13:28.559 --> 00:13:32.100
But because they're using a talking skull, it means they can get

296
00:13:32.100 --> 00:13:35.759
out of using a rubber snake, which is probably the best given the

297
00:13:35.759 --> 00:13:38.220
one that they use at the end, it's got rubber fangs.

298
00:13:38.220 --> 00:13:41.100
They should have made the fangs stiff because their fangs wobbling

299
00:13:41.100 --> 00:13:42.960
around in the mouth don't help to sell it.

300
00:13:43.019 --> 00:13:46.559
Yeah, it's the great tradition of rubber teeth from invasion of

301
00:13:46.559 --> 00:13:47.340
the dinosaurs.

302
00:13:48.659 --> 00:13:52.080
Therein lies a lot of the problem with the production of the story

303
00:13:52.080 --> 00:13:55.440
because I agree that the script is actually working overtime to

304
00:13:55.440 --> 00:14:01.019
deliver some really potent images and some of them are achieved on

305
00:14:01.019 --> 00:14:03.720
screen. to provide the potential to provide potential.

306
00:14:03.779 --> 00:14:05.639
But some of them are also achieved.

307
00:14:05.700 --> 00:14:09.240
Like, I think Tegan looking into the mirror and seeing the skull

308
00:14:09.240 --> 00:14:13.500
on her own form looking back at her and the skull appearing in the

309
00:14:13.500 --> 00:14:17.279
crystal ball at the end of part one, which is a very good

310
00:14:17.279 --> 00:14:21.120
cliffhanger just because of how weird and unsettling it is.

311
00:14:21.179 --> 00:14:24.720
They are great images, but there's so much more scope for the

312
00:14:24.720 --> 00:14:27.179
production to deliver that, which it doesn't.

313
00:14:27.240 --> 00:14:31.620
So that scene, in the Hall of Mirrors, it's just Tegan wandering

314
00:14:31.620 --> 00:14:33.960
around in MCU from mirror to mirror.

315
00:14:34.019 --> 00:14:37.679
It should have been something altogether, more unsettling and

316
00:14:37.679 --> 00:14:40.799
weird, cast into this nether place where there's just mirrors and

317
00:14:40.799 --> 00:14:41.220
darkness.

318
00:14:41.279 --> 00:14:43.919
And if there'd been someone like Peter Groomade, he would have

319
00:14:43.919 --> 00:14:47.700
delivered a scene like the end of Kinder Part 3, that dream

320
00:14:47.700 --> 00:14:51.299
sequence of wheel turns and the clocks, which is something

321
00:14:51.299 --> 00:14:54.179
magnificent on Doctor Who.

322
00:14:54.240 --> 00:14:56.879
And it's lacking the kind of imagery that we're getting Kinder

323
00:14:56.879 --> 00:14:57.720
with the black void.

324
00:14:58.080 --> 00:15:00.600
We get it for a second, don't you?

325
00:15:00.720 --> 00:15:01.379
for a moment.

326
00:15:01.440 --> 00:15:04.080
And even the language, like I think it's only once or twice that

327
00:15:04.080 --> 00:15:07.440
we hear that wonderful phrase, the dark places of the inside, which

328
00:15:07.440 --> 00:15:10.799
is so evocative in kinder, especially the way it's delivered, where

329
00:15:10.799 --> 00:15:11.940
it's kind of thrown away here.

330
00:15:12.000 --> 00:15:14.940
If I may sort of say, snake dance is one of the stories that

331
00:15:14.940 --> 00:15:17.879
annoys me. not because I think it's bad because I think there is

332
00:15:17.879 --> 00:15:18.539
much good in it.

333
00:15:18.659 --> 00:15:20.759
You can see it trying to achieve...

334
00:15:20.820 --> 00:15:21.000
Exactly.

335
00:15:21.059 --> 00:15:23.039
And it is so much wasted potential.

336
00:15:23.100 --> 00:15:24.539
And that's, I think, what makes me cross.

337
00:15:24.600 --> 00:15:26.639
As opposed to something like arc of affinity, which is basically

338
00:15:26.639 --> 00:15:29.580
doing the best that it possibly could with the material, it'll

339
00:15:29.580 --> 00:15:29.879
give it.

340
00:15:29.940 --> 00:15:31.200
Let's not go nuts.

341
00:15:42.480 --> 00:15:45.120
Paulette O'Neill is Tanha.

342
00:15:45.179 --> 00:15:48.539
I think she is a great actress, the way she's performing the role

343
00:15:48.539 --> 00:15:49.259
with one exception.

344
00:15:49.320 --> 00:15:53.340
Her voice is very quiet. there's not very much sound coming out of

345
00:15:53.340 --> 00:15:54.480
her voice so much.

346
00:15:54.539 --> 00:15:58.259
So the microphone levels are turned up such that I can hear the

347
00:15:58.259 --> 00:16:00.240
roomy sound of the studio.

348
00:16:00.360 --> 00:16:02.399
It's not like you hear the ambiance.

349
00:16:02.460 --> 00:16:04.500
It's not like you're hearing props be dropped or something or

350
00:16:04.500 --> 00:16:06.179
people moving about behind the camera.

351
00:16:06.240 --> 00:16:09.659
It's that sense of space where someone's just that little bit too

352
00:16:09.659 --> 00:16:12.000
far away from the microphone and you had to crank the levels up.

353
00:16:12.059 --> 00:16:14.340
It's almost like Menusa has a background hiss.

354
00:16:14.399 --> 00:16:15.000
Yes.

355
00:16:15.059 --> 00:16:18.779
And that's how it manifests itself is like...

356
00:16:18.779 --> 00:16:22.620
And that and it just sort of becomes annoying. especially those

357
00:16:22.620 --> 00:16:24.120
scenes where she's, oh, do you be quiet.

358
00:16:24.179 --> 00:16:24.720
And she is.

359
00:16:24.779 --> 00:16:26.159
So it's a very subtle performance.

360
00:16:26.220 --> 00:16:29.820
She just needed a bit more declamatory with her delivery.

361
00:16:29.879 --> 00:16:32.639
And that adds to the staginess of the production as well, because

362
00:16:32.639 --> 00:16:34.259
it feels like you are in a room.

363
00:16:34.259 --> 00:16:35.940
Yes, you feel like you're in.

364
00:16:36.000 --> 00:16:36.480
I get a sense.

365
00:16:36.539 --> 00:16:37.200
I in a studio.

366
00:16:37.259 --> 00:16:37.799
This is a set.

367
00:16:37.919 --> 00:16:41.639
Do you know, I think the story in some ways actually kind of flags

368
00:16:41.639 --> 00:16:44.519
that for us and says, by the way, this is a story and you're

369
00:16:44.519 --> 00:16:44.940
watching it.

370
00:16:45.000 --> 00:16:46.200
It's full of audiences.

371
00:16:46.259 --> 00:16:49.139
We've got the kids, you've got the kids watching Punch and Judy.

372
00:16:49.200 --> 00:16:52.379
The Mar itself seems to want an audience.

373
00:16:52.440 --> 00:16:55.980
It keeps Paul Duggan around just to be forced to look at what it's

374
00:16:55.980 --> 00:16:56.159
doing.

375
00:16:56.220 --> 00:16:58.620
That's its catchphrase, isn't it?

376
00:16:58.679 --> 00:17:01.620
Look at me, look at me. and that's how we defeat it.

377
00:17:01.679 --> 00:17:02.519
My catchphrase.

378
00:17:02.700 --> 00:17:06.420
I mean, the ritual itself requires all these people to be in

379
00:17:06.420 --> 00:17:08.519
attendance so that it can suck out their evil.

380
00:17:08.579 --> 00:17:13.859
And it's full of puppet snakes as well, which Christopher Bailey

381
00:17:13.859 --> 00:17:19.980
admits was his kind of, no, he's kind of exorcising the experience

382
00:17:19.980 --> 00:17:21.599
of making kinder.

383
00:17:23.759 --> 00:17:27.660
But there's lots and lots of puppet snakes, which means that when

384
00:17:27.660 --> 00:17:30.720
the actual snake comes along and it glistens and stuff like that

385
00:17:30.720 --> 00:17:33.900
it's much more effective because we've just had sort of, you know

386
00:17:33.900 --> 00:17:36.539
the puppet snake in the Punch and Judy show and we've had the

387
00:17:36.539 --> 00:17:40.019
puppet snake going through the streets and stuff and the little

388
00:17:40.019 --> 00:17:46.319
puppet snakes that scare Tegan off in episode one. on One of the

389
00:17:46.319 --> 00:17:48.660
worst extras.

390
00:17:48.720 --> 00:17:53.339
There's a wonderful moment in when the big snake is being moved to

391
00:17:53.339 --> 00:17:55.980
the streets, where it nearly hits one of the extras, and she does

392
00:17:55.980 --> 00:17:59.400
this one little, That's living the moment.

393
00:17:59.759 --> 00:18:01.559
Stayed in character.

394
00:18:01.619 --> 00:18:01.920
Well done.

395
00:18:02.039 --> 00:18:04.920
But talking about the snakes and the back to the Kinder V snake

396
00:18:04.920 --> 00:18:09.900
dance thing is how effective for me, the tattoos snake is on the

397
00:18:09.900 --> 00:18:13.440
arms and Kinder and how ineffective this kind of vinyl transfers

398
00:18:13.440 --> 00:18:14.099
they can.

399
00:18:14.700 --> 00:18:16.079
It's like dance.

400
00:18:16.140 --> 00:18:16.680
You know what I mean?

401
00:18:16.740 --> 00:18:19.500
It's it's it's just cheaper.

402
00:18:19.559 --> 00:18:20.099
Yes.

403
00:18:20.099 --> 00:18:22.799
I mean, what it is, is a poor choice from the director.

404
00:18:22.859 --> 00:18:23.400
Yeah.

405
00:18:23.400 --> 00:18:24.359
Or the designer.

406
00:18:24.420 --> 00:18:25.859
Well, makeup artist.

407
00:18:25.859 --> 00:18:26.519
Where's that?

408
00:18:26.519 --> 00:18:27.480
Who's making that decision?

409
00:18:27.539 --> 00:18:28.980
Where's the director saying, no, not that, that.

410
00:18:29.039 --> 00:18:29.579
Yeah.

411
00:18:29.579 --> 00:18:34.079
I do think that the snake inflating on Tegan's arm and then

412
00:18:34.079 --> 00:18:36.900
turning into the big snake. probably what it was for.

413
00:18:36.960 --> 00:18:40.380
I wonder whether that's why it's a vinyl transfer is so that they

414
00:18:40.380 --> 00:18:42.359
could, it's a, it's like a pump it up with you.

415
00:18:42.420 --> 00:18:42.779
Yeah, yeah.

416
00:18:42.839 --> 00:18:44.880
I mean, most of the time, I don't think it would have been pump

417
00:18:44.880 --> 00:18:45.359
upable.

418
00:18:45.420 --> 00:18:47.099
It is just a...

419
00:18:47.160 --> 00:18:50.039
But I do think that that is particularly effective.

420
00:18:50.099 --> 00:18:54.480
But yes, I think, you know, there's audiences and show and stuff

421
00:18:54.480 --> 00:18:55.019
like that.

422
00:18:55.079 --> 00:18:58.920
And there's a sense in which what has happened is a real thing

423
00:18:58.920 --> 00:19:02.700
that happened in the past where this society encountered a Doctor

424
00:19:02.700 --> 00:19:07.500
Who monster has now been turned into just falsehood.

425
00:19:07.559 --> 00:19:12.119
And, you know, Dugdale and the fortune teller both say that what

426
00:19:12.119 --> 00:19:13.319
they're doing is just for show.

427
00:19:13.380 --> 00:19:14.039
It's not real.

428
00:19:14.099 --> 00:19:18.960
That's a really good scene from Dugdale, where you're saying, you

429
00:19:18.960 --> 00:19:21.119
know, I used to be a searcher of life's mysteries, and then I

430
00:19:21.119 --> 00:19:23.880
realised that when the lights come up, basically it's all rubbish

431
00:19:23.880 --> 00:19:26.160
and there's someone waiting with their handout to take payment.

432
00:19:26.279 --> 00:19:28.680
I mean, that's great, Doctor Who dialogue.

433
00:19:28.740 --> 00:19:32.700
But even the woman, the fortune teller is really wonderful as well

434
00:19:32.700 --> 00:19:36.900
because she says, I just say whatever comes into my head and then

435
00:19:36.900 --> 00:19:41.579
she says, mind you, it's surprising what does come into your

436
00:19:41.579 --> 00:19:41.940
head.

437
00:19:42.000 --> 00:19:45.480
And I think that that's actually really quite terrifying when

438
00:19:45.480 --> 00:19:48.839
she's actually being kind of sweet and homey and kind of finally

439
00:19:48.839 --> 00:19:49.859
telling the truth.

440
00:19:49.920 --> 00:19:54.299
But also, the Federation obviously lives in this sort of post

441
00:19:53.339 --> 00:19:54.299
religion.

442
00:19:54.359 --> 00:19:54.900
Yes.

443
00:19:54.900 --> 00:19:58.319
But they allow the natives to practice their religion.

444
00:19:58.380 --> 00:20:00.660
So in some respects, the aspect of allowing the natives to

445
00:20:00.660 --> 00:20:02.460
practice whatever religion they like is almost like the Roman

446
00:20:02.460 --> 00:20:05.099
Empire, and you'd have the governor overseeing it.

447
00:20:05.160 --> 00:20:08.220
But they don't really believe the Maa from a religious point of

448
00:20:08.220 --> 00:20:08.460
view.

449
00:20:08.519 --> 00:20:09.720
They just, it's a myth.

450
00:20:09.839 --> 00:20:10.559
It's a legend.

451
00:20:10.619 --> 00:20:13.500
And so all of the ceremony involved with that is it's just words.

452
00:20:13.559 --> 00:20:14.700
It's just nonsense.

453
00:20:14.759 --> 00:20:16.859
Yeah, and that's what the doctor has to do.

454
00:20:16.920 --> 00:20:21.180
I mean, that's what's fun about the doctor is he's here saying all

455
00:20:21.180 --> 00:20:22.079
the religion is real.

456
00:20:22.380 --> 00:20:25.440
He's running up to devil's end.

457
00:20:25.500 --> 00:20:27.599
Yes, I suppose that's what it is.

458
00:20:27.599 --> 00:20:28.259
Stop that deer.

459
00:20:28.319 --> 00:20:29.880
Okay, dear, yes, yes.

460
00:20:30.480 --> 00:20:33.779
And he's really interesting for that reason.

461
00:20:33.839 --> 00:20:36.539
That's why I think he's slightly manic because he has to look

462
00:20:36.539 --> 00:20:37.079
really mad.

463
00:20:37.140 --> 00:20:40.680
You know, like he has to seem unreliable.

464
00:20:40.740 --> 00:20:44.099
Have we hardly ever get this outside of you of the doctor, yes

465
00:20:44.160 --> 00:20:47.220
everyone else sees him sort of bursting into dinner parties. going

466
00:20:47.220 --> 00:20:47.819
blah, blah.

467
00:20:49.319 --> 00:20:53.759
The with Amber. where he says, oh yes, no, I'll put a stop to it.

468
00:20:53.819 --> 00:20:54.240
That's fine.

469
00:20:54.299 --> 00:20:54.839
Anything else?

470
00:20:54.900 --> 00:20:56.700
You know, like I'm sorry.

471
00:20:56.759 --> 00:21:00.299
That's all right, you know, like just absolutely dismissive of

472
00:21:00.299 --> 00:21:00.539
him.

473
00:21:00.599 --> 00:21:01.920
I think he's...

474
00:21:01.920 --> 00:21:03.900
Well, it's because he's had so many endless cranks.

475
00:21:03.960 --> 00:21:04.799
Yeah, yeah.

476
00:21:04.859 --> 00:21:06.240
I adore Amber.

477
00:21:06.299 --> 00:21:08.880
I love it when he comes back all dusty, like he's a dusty old book

478
00:21:08.880 --> 00:21:09.420
on the shelf.

479
00:21:10.140 --> 00:21:14.519
He is extremely knowledgable and he won't stop being

480
00:21:14.519 --> 00:21:15.240
knowledgable.

481
00:21:15.299 --> 00:21:18.180
He's knowledgable at Tanha until she can't help herself, but

482
00:21:18.180 --> 00:21:18.779
you're.

483
00:21:18.839 --> 00:21:20.700
But she says, that is wrong.

484
00:21:20.759 --> 00:21:22.200
She says, oh, do be quiet.

485
00:21:22.859 --> 00:21:25.619
I'm getting bored into tiny bits.

486
00:21:26.700 --> 00:21:30.839
So he has all this knowledge and it's all around the Sumarian

487
00:21:30.839 --> 00:21:32.160
Empire and so forth.

488
00:21:32.220 --> 00:21:34.980
But it's the wrong kind of knowledge to actually deal with the Mar

489
00:21:35.039 --> 00:21:36.720
That kind of knowledge.

490
00:21:36.839 --> 00:21:38.279
He just he just dismisses.

491
00:21:38.339 --> 00:21:42.900
And it's wonderful too how that gets turned into desire as well.

492
00:21:42.960 --> 00:21:48.299
Like the way that he is caught is because of his greed, his

493
00:21:48.299 --> 00:21:49.319
desire.

494
00:21:49.559 --> 00:21:52.440
He's thirst, and that's how he can be manipulated.

495
00:21:52.500 --> 00:21:55.740
He's like the doctor in plunder of the spiders, greed for

496
00:21:55.740 --> 00:21:56.099
knowledge.

497
00:21:56.160 --> 00:21:58.859
I mean, he's like a fanboy, isn't he?

498
00:21:58.920 --> 00:22:02.339
He's got all of the minutiae at his fingertips, but he's focussed

499
00:22:02.339 --> 00:22:03.960
on appreciating the show wrong.

500
00:22:04.019 --> 00:22:06.779
You know, it has the sea devils come back, not do we have a good

501
00:22:06.779 --> 00:22:07.619
story this week.

502
00:22:07.680 --> 00:22:09.779
And so, what are you talking about?

503
00:22:11.640 --> 00:22:17.400
And so that scene where he is taken by Lon into the secret cavern

504
00:22:17.400 --> 00:22:19.319
and there's all of the artefacts there.

505
00:22:19.380 --> 00:22:24.779
For some reason, it just puts me in mind of Ian Levine, who was

506
00:22:24.779 --> 00:22:28.920
still turning up film prints at this point in the show's history

507
00:22:28.920 --> 00:22:33.420
maybe being led into sort of the basement of a Mormon church and

508
00:22:33.420 --> 00:22:36.720
seeing all of these film cans there and having someone holding up

509
00:22:36.720 --> 00:22:40.740
the smugglers part 2 with a cigarette lighter and exporting him

510
00:22:40.740 --> 00:22:40.980
yeah.

511
00:22:41.160 --> 00:22:43.440
Do what they needed.

512
00:22:44.519 --> 00:22:46.680
It's a very good analogy, actually.

513
00:22:46.740 --> 00:22:48.420
Yeah, yeah, because that's exactly what it's like.

514
00:22:48.480 --> 00:22:50.160
It's hard to describe.

515
00:22:50.220 --> 00:22:52.680
It's a substance of the legend.

516
00:22:52.740 --> 00:22:54.299
He cares about the trappings around it.

517
00:22:54.359 --> 00:22:54.900
Yes, yes.

518
00:22:54.960 --> 00:22:57.180
Because it is a real legend, it's true.

519
00:22:57.240 --> 00:23:02.460
This legend is true, unlike the legends that archeologists deal

520
00:23:02.460 --> 00:23:03.180
with here.

521
00:23:03.240 --> 00:23:06.539
And so he's talking about science and he's talking about all of

522
00:23:06.539 --> 00:23:07.319
those sorts of things.

523
00:23:07.380 --> 00:23:11.039
The big misunderstanding, that big misunderstanding about the 6

524
00:23:11.039 --> 00:23:12.420
faces of delusion.

525
00:23:12.480 --> 00:23:15.599
Whenever I hear that, I always think the 5 faces of Doctor Who.

526
00:23:16.019 --> 00:23:20.700
But, you know, in a sense that's really obvious.

527
00:23:20.759 --> 00:23:23.220
Like, it's not super clever.

528
00:23:23.279 --> 00:23:26.640
And you think anyone with their wits about them is kind of working

529
00:23:26.640 --> 00:23:28.079
that out as they watch it.

530
00:23:28.140 --> 00:23:31.799
Like no one's surprised by how Pete resolves that.

531
00:23:31.859 --> 00:23:35.640
But can I say if it had been better directed that would have had

532
00:23:35.640 --> 00:23:36.720
more of a rhythm to it?

533
00:23:36.779 --> 00:23:39.180
It's on screen in shot for far too long.

534
00:23:39.240 --> 00:23:41.519
The audience has already got there before the script has.

535
00:23:41.579 --> 00:23:45.900
But in a way, that just shows how ill equipped Amberley is to deal

536
00:23:45.900 --> 00:23:47.039
with what's really going on.

537
00:23:47.099 --> 00:23:50.400
So he sees it as an artefact.

538
00:23:50.460 --> 00:23:53.819
He talks about its artistic merit, all of that sort of thing.

539
00:23:53.880 --> 00:23:55.980
What period of the smart empire?

540
00:23:56.039 --> 00:23:56.880
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

541
00:23:56.940 --> 00:23:59.039
The middle period or something like that, a perfect...

542
00:23:59.099 --> 00:24:00.000
The inner Smoid era.

543
00:24:00.359 --> 00:24:05.099
But he doesn't think of it as an actual thing that someone would

544
00:24:05.099 --> 00:24:05.460
wear.

545
00:24:05.519 --> 00:24:07.859
And it's an artefact for him. not a mask.

546
00:24:07.920 --> 00:24:10.019
It's an artefact to sit on a thing, a pole.

547
00:24:10.079 --> 00:24:10.559
That's right.

548
00:24:10.619 --> 00:24:12.720
And so he never thinks of someone actually putting it on.

549
00:24:12.839 --> 00:24:15.480
And perhaps it's never occurred to him to put it on before.

550
00:24:15.539 --> 00:24:18.960
So like, I think that that is a good character moment, even if it

551
00:24:18.960 --> 00:24:21.720
is less clever than people give it credit for, I think.

552
00:24:21.779 --> 00:24:25.079
And actually, that's what Chella is there for, because Chella does

553
00:24:25.079 --> 00:24:28.500
see the entirety of everything, and that's why he's open to the

554
00:24:28.500 --> 00:24:31.259
doctor's supposedly weird interjections.

555
00:24:31.440 --> 00:24:33.660
I adore trailer as well.

556
00:24:33.720 --> 00:24:35.099
He's fantastic.

557
00:24:35.160 --> 00:24:36.960
He's beamed in from a boy band.

558
00:24:37.079 --> 00:24:40.079
Yeah, it's a very early 80s war, but and I never appreciated him

559
00:24:40.079 --> 00:24:42.720
at the time, but I sort of, when I'm watching it for this, I went

560
00:24:42.720 --> 00:24:43.740
oh, he's actually rather nice.

561
00:24:43.799 --> 00:24:45.839
Yeah, I thing between him and Nissa.

562
00:24:45.900 --> 00:24:46.500
Yeah.

563
00:24:46.559 --> 00:24:48.900
Poor Nissa has got nothing to do in the story.

564
00:24:48.960 --> 00:24:50.640
She might as well hang around with child.

565
00:24:50.700 --> 00:24:51.839
Have you met Nessa?

566
00:24:51.839 --> 00:24:54.539
I was also thinking I'm not entirely sure where the trailer is

567
00:24:54.539 --> 00:24:55.140
that way inclined.

568
00:24:55.200 --> 00:24:56.460
No, I think he probably is.

569
00:24:56.880 --> 00:25:00.900
I seem to remember us thinking he was cute at the time and then

570
00:25:00.900 --> 00:25:05.460
watching it this time in an era where everyone on television is

571
00:25:05.460 --> 00:25:08.759
very attractive, he doesn't quite make the grade, I think.

572
00:25:08.759 --> 00:25:14.279
He has some nice period kind of floppy hair, but he does have that

573
00:25:14.279 --> 00:25:17.279
nice moment where the doctor helps Nissa down and Nissa gives him

574
00:25:17.279 --> 00:25:19.559
a bit of a serve and says, you know, that's nice.

575
00:25:19.619 --> 00:25:20.819
Thank you, but I didn't need that.

576
00:25:20.880 --> 00:25:23.759
And he just he just gives the doctor this, oh, women.

577
00:25:27.119 --> 00:25:30.359
Why are we talking about odd pacing and stuff?

578
00:25:30.420 --> 00:25:32.099
Why is that scene there?

579
00:25:32.279 --> 00:25:35.339
And why is the scene where we distract the guard there at all?

580
00:25:35.400 --> 00:25:39.420
We have got to keep the doctor and Nesso and Shayla from

581
00:25:39.420 --> 00:25:42.900
interfering with the ceremony until it's climax.

582
00:25:43.019 --> 00:25:44.400
That's purely it.

583
00:25:44.519 --> 00:25:45.960
They could be on a bus that broke down.

584
00:25:46.019 --> 00:25:47.039
It would have the same effect.

585
00:25:47.099 --> 00:25:47.940
Yeah.

586
00:25:48.000 --> 00:25:50.519
They could have been caught in a busy marketplace because of all

587
00:25:50.519 --> 00:25:53.099
of the festivities or something had to. could have ended up in a

588
00:25:53.099 --> 00:25:55.559
fist fight. attendant demons, almost anything.

589
00:25:55.619 --> 00:25:56.099
Yeah.

590
00:25:56.160 --> 00:25:58.619
Well, exactly. anything to liven things up a little bit.

591
00:25:58.680 --> 00:26:01.200
I mean, I think, and that's the problem as well, because we're

592
00:26:01.200 --> 00:26:04.559
doing four-part stories at this point without really thinking

593
00:26:04.559 --> 00:26:08.519
about that, and it's only a few years before we actually decide

594
00:26:08.519 --> 00:26:12.119
let's make that a special thing and have three-part stories as

595
00:26:12.119 --> 00:26:12.359
well.

596
00:26:12.420 --> 00:26:16.619
But yeah, that's a way to deciding that 3 parts is actually the

597
00:26:16.619 --> 00:26:18.599
natural format for Doctor Who storytelling.

598
00:26:18.660 --> 00:26:20.759
Because that is just stalling.

599
00:26:20.819 --> 00:26:25.980
And it's an entire episode of the doctor doing exposition and

600
00:26:25.980 --> 00:26:29.700
stuff, which could have been done more subtly more quickly.

601
00:26:29.759 --> 00:26:32.339
I do slightly take issue with that because I think that there are

602
00:26:32.339 --> 00:26:35.940
plenty of other stories which use the 4 episodes effectively.

603
00:26:36.000 --> 00:26:39.299
It's just that I think in the 80s, it's almost like they forget

604
00:26:39.299 --> 00:26:39.960
how to do that.

605
00:26:40.019 --> 00:26:44.819
I mean, I know that it's a jigsaw puzzle. you know, there are only

606
00:26:44.819 --> 00:26:45.420
so many sets.

607
00:26:45.480 --> 00:26:47.339
You can have, there are only so many different parts. you can have

608
00:26:47.339 --> 00:26:49.859
that shapes, the amount of story you can tell.

609
00:26:49.920 --> 00:26:53.220
And as we were saying earlier, you're stalling so that you can get

610
00:26:53.220 --> 00:26:54.720
your characters in place for the climax.

611
00:26:54.779 --> 00:26:55.619
Exactly.

612
00:26:55.680 --> 00:26:58.859
And so you need to just come up with something else to happen

613
00:26:58.859 --> 00:27:03.180
another diversion, something, they need to have gone somewhere to

614
00:27:03.180 --> 00:27:06.180
do something and then come back or there needs to be a kind of

615
00:27:06.180 --> 00:27:08.160
even if it's just a kind of a going around in a circle kind of

616
00:27:08.160 --> 00:27:11.460
effect, which at least creates the appearance of activity rather

617
00:27:11.460 --> 00:27:12.359
than sitting in a cell.

618
00:27:12.420 --> 00:27:15.539
It almost felt to me like we shouldn't have spent episode 3 in the

619
00:27:15.539 --> 00:27:18.900
cell and then spent 10 minutes of episode 4 going up into the

620
00:27:18.900 --> 00:27:19.140
hills.

621
00:27:19.200 --> 00:27:22.200
Episode 3 should have been the going up into the hills. was just

622
00:27:22.200 --> 00:27:22.799
about to say that.

623
00:27:22.859 --> 00:27:24.240
There's enough stuff there.

624
00:27:24.480 --> 00:27:27.599
Exactly. and then those sequences can be a bit more meaningful.

625
00:27:27.660 --> 00:27:30.299
Because, I mean, there is a lack of imagination, I think, about

626
00:27:30.299 --> 00:27:32.940
why we're doing Doctor Who the way that we're doing it.

627
00:27:33.000 --> 00:27:37.200
And, you know, this thing is an odd hangover.

628
00:27:37.259 --> 00:27:43.440
And given that TV is faster in the 80s than it was in the 60s, I

629
00:27:43.440 --> 00:27:47.039
think that a four-part episode seems languorous, the way that a 6

630
00:27:47.039 --> 00:27:49.019
part one does in the Pertuy era.

631
00:27:49.079 --> 00:27:52.440
And I think that we needed more incidents for these 4 parts.

632
00:27:52.500 --> 00:27:53.880
I think you need, yes, you need more incident.

633
00:27:54.240 --> 00:27:55.680
You're going to do four-part stories.

634
00:27:55.740 --> 00:27:58.319
Like if you're going to do a 6 part story, you need to fill it.

635
00:27:58.380 --> 00:28:02.700
You don't just stop because you run out of ideas because Kinder

636
00:28:02.700 --> 00:28:03.480
does not feel too long.

637
00:28:03.539 --> 00:28:04.619
No, no, absolutely.

638
00:28:04.619 --> 00:28:06.839
And for whatever flaws there are with something like Forge of

639
00:28:06.839 --> 00:28:09.900
Doomsday or the visitation, earth shock.

640
00:28:10.019 --> 00:28:12.599
Because Earthshock goes from PlayState to Place B. Yeah, yeah

641
00:28:12.599 --> 00:28:12.960
that.

642
00:28:13.019 --> 00:28:13.380
Correct.

643
00:28:13.440 --> 00:28:16.859
There are plenty of examples of the four-part format work. just

644
00:28:16.859 --> 00:28:18.000
the fact that they don't have enough content.

645
00:28:18.059 --> 00:28:20.400
No. somewhere between a 2 and a four-part story.

646
00:28:20.460 --> 00:28:23.460
The other thing you have to remember, you had, to be fair, it's

647
00:28:23.460 --> 00:28:26.220
not just the way all this is, the way it's always done.

648
00:28:26.279 --> 00:28:28.259
There are ways that studio bookings work.

649
00:28:28.319 --> 00:28:31.259
There are ways that, you know, because remember, JNT creates the

650
00:28:31.259 --> 00:28:35.279
two, three passes for the McCoy era by having, okay, we're

651
00:28:35.279 --> 00:28:37.920
basically filming it like a six-part story and having the location

652
00:28:37.920 --> 00:28:40.740
bit with as one story and the studio bit is another story.

653
00:28:40.799 --> 00:28:44.279
And he makes the restrictions of how the studios and locations

654
00:28:44.279 --> 00:28:47.519
stuff work to his advantage to create the 23 part stories.

655
00:28:47.579 --> 00:28:49.920
That may not have been available at this point because there

656
00:28:49.920 --> 00:28:51.059
wasn't enough location filming.

657
00:28:51.119 --> 00:28:51.420
Who knows?

658
00:28:51.539 --> 00:28:56.339
Yeah, remember he was stymied in season 18, where the story goes

659
00:28:56.339 --> 00:29:00.059
that he actually wanted it to be three-part stories, which is why

660
00:29:00.059 --> 00:29:04.319
the leisure hive and Meglos underrun, so chronically that the

661
00:29:04.319 --> 00:29:06.660
initial idea was that they would be three-part stories.

662
00:29:06.660 --> 00:29:09.539
Yes, because you can see what he would have experienced in the

663
00:29:09.539 --> 00:29:12.480
latter Graham Williams years, I would suggest that a good example

664
00:29:12.480 --> 00:29:15.059
of where four-part stories don't make the length.

665
00:29:15.059 --> 00:29:17.700
Ah, creature from the bit nightmare of eaten horns of 9.

666
00:29:17.759 --> 00:29:20.819
They are 3 Destiny of the Daleks and City of Death 2, but those

667
00:29:20.819 --> 00:29:21.900
other 3 just do not.

668
00:29:21.960 --> 00:29:24.240
There's just not enough.

669
00:29:24.299 --> 00:29:25.680
And the charter's too long as well.

670
00:29:31.799 --> 00:29:34.799
Let's talk about the return of the Mara.

671
00:29:34.920 --> 00:29:43.920
I think that this is a very, very rare occasion where we actually

672
00:29:43.920 --> 00:29:49.859
give the Mara a science fiction backstory without ruining them.

673
00:29:49.920 --> 00:29:51.960
And I think it's incredible.

674
00:29:52.019 --> 00:29:56.279
But when something weird and supernatural happens in Doctor Who, it

675
00:29:56.279 --> 00:29:57.900
benefits from not being explained.

676
00:29:59.099 --> 00:30:00.779
Well, not just Doctor Who, everything, I mean, well, that's

677
00:30:00.779 --> 00:30:01.019
right.

678
00:30:01.019 --> 00:30:03.240
Yeah.

679
00:30:03.299 --> 00:30:03.839
I mean really?

680
00:30:03.900 --> 00:30:04.440
Yeah.

681
00:30:04.500 --> 00:30:11.160
Whereas here, the Mara actually become an artefact created by the

682
00:30:11.160 --> 00:30:15.000
people of Manusa before the Samaran Empire.

683
00:30:15.059 --> 00:30:20.099
The Mar is created, it's rayified, it's made real through the

684
00:30:20.099 --> 00:30:23.400
crystals which they've made in 0 gravity.

685
00:30:23.460 --> 00:30:24.420
Their artefacts.

686
00:30:24.480 --> 00:30:27.900
The realisation of that is actually really quite well done, as

687
00:30:27.900 --> 00:30:29.220
Pete discovers all of that stuff.

688
00:30:29.279 --> 00:30:30.180
I think that's really good.

689
00:30:30.240 --> 00:30:35.880
And then it's called into existence from the greed and thirst and

690
00:30:35.880 --> 00:30:41.640
evil in their minds and then it's banished to the dark places of

691
00:30:41.640 --> 00:30:45.720
the inside where Tegan 1st encounters it on Diva Loca.

692
00:30:45.720 --> 00:30:51.059
And all of that is so well done and it absolutely doesn't ruin

693
00:30:51.059 --> 00:30:51.299
it.

694
00:30:51.359 --> 00:30:52.500
It doesn't ruin it.

695
00:30:52.559 --> 00:30:56.640
No, I used to imagine a final scene of any Sapphire and Steel

696
00:30:56.640 --> 00:31:00.000
episode where it was revealed that they were from the planet Zog

697
00:31:00.000 --> 00:31:04.200
and they had a spaceship and like all of that.

698
00:31:04.259 --> 00:31:05.400
Yeah, completely ruining it.

699
00:31:05.460 --> 00:31:07.140
This manages not to do that.

700
00:31:07.200 --> 00:31:07.920
I agree.

701
00:31:07.980 --> 00:31:11.339
I think it's because it addresses the same.

702
00:31:11.400 --> 00:31:14.819
The Mara means the same thing in snake dancers, it did in Kinder.

703
00:31:14.880 --> 00:31:18.599
It's still about the negative parts of the mind, the restless

704
00:31:18.599 --> 00:31:22.259
parts of the mind, but it's using a science fiction idea to say

705
00:31:22.259 --> 00:31:25.740
well, take those restless parts that are in everybody's minds and

706
00:31:25.740 --> 00:31:29.700
bring them across into reality, into something that can directly

707
00:31:29.700 --> 00:31:34.259
affect reality, not just people's minds doing evil, but a whacking

708
00:31:34.259 --> 00:31:37.019
great monster that can actually affect everybody.

709
00:31:37.079 --> 00:31:41.279
And I do wonder if Chris Bailey got the idea of the blue crystals

710
00:31:41.279 --> 00:31:45.119
from something like planet of spiders, where we have a blue

711
00:31:45.119 --> 00:31:48.299
crystal, which can interact with the human mind.

712
00:31:48.299 --> 00:31:51.119
I mean, they're both based on Buddhist style principles, aren't

713
00:31:51.119 --> 00:31:51.240
they?

714
00:31:51.299 --> 00:31:53.519
Both Planet of the Spiders and Mar stories.

715
00:31:53.579 --> 00:31:56.640
Yeah, I don't I don't know that either story is especially

716
00:31:56.640 --> 00:31:57.299
Buddhist.

717
00:31:57.359 --> 00:31:59.400
I think if you put them in front of a Buddhist who knew their

718
00:31:59.400 --> 00:31:59.640
stuff.

719
00:31:59.700 --> 00:32:00.599
They might be a bit well.

720
00:32:00.660 --> 00:32:01.500
They've picked and chosen.

721
00:32:02.039 --> 00:32:03.960
Well, I'm talking about someone who's went 3 paragraphs on the

722
00:32:03.960 --> 00:32:05.460
equivalent of Wikipedia.

723
00:32:07.500 --> 00:32:08.039
A bit of that.

724
00:32:08.099 --> 00:32:10.680
I think that there's probably more Buddhist stuff going on in

725
00:32:10.680 --> 00:32:12.180
Kinder than there is in Snake Dance.

726
00:32:12.240 --> 00:32:14.339
But it's still, it's still a powerful influence.

727
00:32:14.460 --> 00:32:17.460
See, I actually wondered whether the part of the problem with

728
00:32:17.460 --> 00:32:20.819
Kinder is that it has a snake in a garden, and so there's

729
00:32:20.819 --> 00:32:23.279
inevitably all of this sort of Christian imagery.

730
00:32:23.339 --> 00:32:26.640
And even though it has things like the Bhavachakra and all of

731
00:32:26.640 --> 00:32:28.380
those sorts of things in it.

732
00:32:28.440 --> 00:32:30.960
It's muddied a little bit.

733
00:32:31.019 --> 00:32:36.720
Whereas I do think that this is more clearly attempting to deal

734
00:32:36.720 --> 00:32:42.059
with Buddhist ideas and the idea, you know, the idea of thirst, the

735
00:32:42.059 --> 00:32:48.599
idea of desire being the thing that leads to dissatisfaction, to

736
00:32:48.599 --> 00:32:52.500
suffering and so on, is sort of very definitely there.

737
00:32:52.559 --> 00:32:59.819
And the fact that the defeat of it is by going within, by finding

738
00:32:59.819 --> 00:33:04.259
a still point at the centre of, you know, your consciousness and

739
00:33:04.259 --> 00:33:07.019
refusing to look at it, refusing to engage with.

740
00:33:07.019 --> 00:33:10.980
Or looking at it, but not being moved by it, not being terrified

741
00:33:10.980 --> 00:33:13.319
by it, by just being able to look at it clearly.

742
00:33:13.380 --> 00:33:14.339
I think that's a good idea.

743
00:33:14.400 --> 00:33:17.940
Dotan says about the snake to the doctor is like you just have to

744
00:33:17.940 --> 00:33:18.960
put your fear aside.

745
00:33:19.019 --> 00:33:20.940
You haven't been scared up until now. are you scared now?

746
00:33:21.000 --> 00:33:24.539
In fact, what's great is the moment where the still point gets

747
00:33:24.539 --> 00:33:24.960
mentioned.

748
00:33:25.019 --> 00:33:27.720
The doctor actually wonders where it is in the cave.

749
00:33:27.839 --> 00:33:30.240
And then he's told, no, no, it's inside you.

750
00:33:33.480 --> 00:33:36.240
He might not have watched Doctor Who before.

751
00:33:37.559 --> 00:33:42.960
But in some respects, it's selling the moral of the story of snake

752
00:33:42.960 --> 00:33:46.440
dance, and to a lesser extent, Kinder is about discipline and self

753
00:33:45.539 --> 00:33:48.839
discipline, and that's what a lot of world religions are about

754
00:33:48.839 --> 00:33:50.400
especially Buddhism, isn't it?

755
00:33:50.400 --> 00:33:51.660
It's about finding the centre point.

756
00:33:51.720 --> 00:33:53.220
It's about self-discipline.

757
00:33:53.279 --> 00:33:57.960
And it's when the society's become greedy and all that.

758
00:33:58.019 --> 00:33:59.579
That's when they fall apart.

759
00:33:59.640 --> 00:34:03.900
And you almost might say that that's an implicit criticism of

760
00:34:03.900 --> 00:34:06.900
other religions, because a lot of, like you say, it's about

761
00:34:06.900 --> 00:34:10.860
finding the still point within you, a lot of what kinder and snake

762
00:34:10.860 --> 00:34:14.760
dance talk about is the kind of ephemeral nature of performance

763
00:34:14.760 --> 00:34:19.019
like, you know, the snake going through the streets and this whole

764
00:34:19.019 --> 00:34:22.199
this whole industry of performance that's built up around

765
00:34:22.199 --> 00:34:23.400
themara.

766
00:34:23.460 --> 00:34:25.079
And really, it's all for nothing.

767
00:34:25.139 --> 00:34:27.059
The ceremony is for nothing.

768
00:34:27.179 --> 00:34:28.860
It's all about finding the still point.

769
00:34:28.920 --> 00:34:32.880
And I think Chris Bailey is interested in that idea of everything

770
00:34:32.880 --> 00:34:36.420
else being performance apart from the realisation inside you.

771
00:34:36.480 --> 00:34:41.400
He's also interested, I think, in the nature of storytelling and

772
00:34:41.400 --> 00:34:44.219
particularly through the character of the jester.

773
00:34:44.280 --> 00:34:47.639
And it's interesting that in Kinder, we have an actual jester.

774
00:34:47.639 --> 00:34:52.500
In Snake Dance, we have an actual jester in Dugdale, but also the

775
00:34:52.500 --> 00:34:55.440
doctor is put into the role of being a jester.

776
00:34:55.500 --> 00:34:59.219
He is the crazy person who comes in spouting truths and no one

777
00:34:59.219 --> 00:35:00.780
believes them and sidelines them.

778
00:35:00.840 --> 00:35:04.440
It's almost like 2 actually. 2 points I want to make about the

779
00:35:04.440 --> 00:35:05.099
sequel thing.

780
00:35:05.159 --> 00:35:08.579
So 1st of all, is that the bad version of SnackDance, and despite

781
00:35:08.579 --> 00:35:10.440
my criticisms of it, I don't think it's actively bad.

782
00:35:10.559 --> 00:35:12.059
I just think it could be much better.

783
00:35:12.119 --> 00:35:14.219
Yeah, no, I actually think it's really rather good.

784
00:35:14.280 --> 00:35:15.420
It's just so frustrating.

785
00:35:15.480 --> 00:35:16.739
So frustrating, not well to living.

786
00:35:16.800 --> 00:35:18.719
It's sort of, yeah, but it's always going to be kind of a middling

787
00:35:18.719 --> 00:35:20.400
story for me, but it could be so much better.

788
00:35:20.460 --> 00:35:22.800
Because the bad version, the properly bad version of Snake Dance

789
00:35:22.800 --> 00:35:25.199
is where the Mara is just this great big snake that possesses

790
00:35:25.199 --> 00:35:27.420
people and all the other stuff, because that's what usually

791
00:35:27.420 --> 00:35:30.780
happens with a sequel, is all the interesting parts of an enemy or

792
00:35:30.780 --> 00:35:33.119
a villain are kind of extracted and it just becomes actually more

793
00:35:33.119 --> 00:35:33.539
generic.

794
00:35:33.659 --> 00:35:37.079
In fact, it almost looks like it's going to be that.

795
00:35:37.139 --> 00:35:37.920
Yes, doesn't it?

796
00:35:37.980 --> 00:35:40.739
Because the, what, what does the Mara do?

797
00:35:40.800 --> 00:35:42.780
Well, it possesses Tegan, obviously.

798
00:35:42.840 --> 00:35:44.099
And so we're doing that again.

799
00:35:44.159 --> 00:35:46.199
We're having Tegan's dreams.

800
00:35:46.260 --> 00:35:47.099
Dream again, yes.

801
00:35:47.159 --> 00:35:49.139
You know, we're doing all your favourite bits again.

802
00:35:49.199 --> 00:35:50.519
Yeah, your favourite lines again.

803
00:35:50.579 --> 00:35:52.139
And we get all so well done.

804
00:35:52.199 --> 00:35:53.039
Yes, yes.

805
00:35:53.159 --> 00:35:55.860
This time we'll have the Dale coming out of sand, rather than the

806
00:35:55.860 --> 00:35:56.219
sand.

807
00:35:56.280 --> 00:36:01.559
But it does make it more interesting and it gives it a completely

808
00:36:01.559 --> 00:36:02.219
different place.

809
00:36:02.280 --> 00:36:02.639
Yes.

810
00:36:02.639 --> 00:36:08.760
The link between Menusa and Diva Loca is absolutely not clear at

811
00:36:08.760 --> 00:36:09.059
all.

812
00:36:09.119 --> 00:36:11.159
But that's because it's at the dark places of the inside.

813
00:36:11.219 --> 00:36:13.260
It's kind of throughout all space.

814
00:36:13.320 --> 00:36:16.019
That's the impression I get is that once it's been brought into

815
00:36:16.019 --> 00:36:17.699
being, it kind of can exist everywhere.

816
00:36:17.760 --> 00:36:21.659
Yeah, I would have loved to have seen a 2nd sequel set on earth

817
00:36:21.659 --> 00:36:24.059
the with the Mara manifesting on earth.

818
00:36:24.119 --> 00:36:26.820
I think that could have been a really interesting, perhaps in an

819
00:36:26.820 --> 00:36:27.480
English village.

820
00:36:27.719 --> 00:36:29.880
That would have been fantastic.

821
00:36:29.940 --> 00:36:31.559
Or awfully tedious.

822
00:36:33.599 --> 00:36:35.940
But yeah, you understand what I'm saying.

823
00:36:36.000 --> 00:36:38.699
And that's where it just becomes a generic monster.

824
00:36:38.820 --> 00:36:39.420
I do understand.

825
00:36:39.420 --> 00:36:40.380
We're the underground.

826
00:36:40.440 --> 00:36:42.719
Yeah, we've looked at, yes, we looked at the Daleks syndaleic

827
00:36:42.719 --> 00:36:43.199
invasion.

828
00:36:43.260 --> 00:36:45.659
You know, we didn't look at these Warriors. because I think

829
00:36:45.659 --> 00:36:46.380
they're terribly boring.

830
00:36:49.260 --> 00:36:54.659
One of the ways that you sidestep that just becoming generic, like

831
00:36:54.659 --> 00:36:57.900
say, the ice war is in the scenes of death, is by making an origin

832
00:36:57.900 --> 00:37:01.679
story, that mitigates against making it generic, because you are

833
00:37:01.679 --> 00:37:02.940
looking at...

834
00:37:03.000 --> 00:37:03.300
That right.

835
00:37:03.360 --> 00:37:04.800
And it kills them off.

836
00:37:04.860 --> 00:37:08.159
Like they don't retreat to the dark places of the inside and

837
00:37:08.159 --> 00:37:10.079
they're not an elemental force.

838
00:37:10.139 --> 00:37:14.280
They are a thing that was created in a particular place and in a

839
00:37:14.280 --> 00:37:15.179
particular way.

840
00:37:15.239 --> 00:37:17.880
And so we can kill them off at the end.

841
00:37:18.000 --> 00:37:20.519
They don't retreat to the dark places of the inside.

842
00:37:20.579 --> 00:37:23.340
Obviously, if we did a 3rd story, guess what?

843
00:37:23.400 --> 00:37:25.619
They retreated to the dark place.

844
00:37:25.679 --> 00:37:29.880
But I think that actually that's quite good.

845
00:37:29.940 --> 00:37:32.219
So you have the monster.

846
00:37:32.280 --> 00:37:37.980
It's very successful except in the season 19 TWM poll.

847
00:37:38.219 --> 00:37:40.980
Comes last. came a lot.

848
00:37:41.280 --> 00:37:43.920
God, there are a lot of things that could have come behind.

849
00:37:44.820 --> 00:37:48.900
Behind 4 to Doomsday and 3 slots behind Time Flight.

850
00:37:49.019 --> 00:37:49.980
Oh my god.

851
00:37:50.039 --> 00:37:51.179
Fans know nothing.

852
00:37:51.239 --> 00:37:51.840
Yeah.

853
00:37:51.900 --> 00:37:54.239
Which is why we're here talking.

854
00:37:56.400 --> 00:38:01.500
See, also my earlier comments about fans being fixated on the sea

855
00:38:01.500 --> 00:38:03.960
devils coming back, whether it's an actually good story.

856
00:38:04.019 --> 00:38:06.539
There was one thing I wanted, the 2nd thing I wanted to say about

857
00:38:06.539 --> 00:38:06.960
the sequel.

858
00:38:07.019 --> 00:38:07.559
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

859
00:38:07.619 --> 00:38:11.760
This is almost a bit meta because the sequel, merchandise is

860
00:38:11.760 --> 00:38:12.119
available.

861
00:38:12.179 --> 00:38:15.960
Suddenly we've arrived on a planet where the Mara, we all, the

862
00:38:15.960 --> 00:38:17.880
Mara is this thing that we will experience and now we can buy

863
00:38:17.880 --> 00:38:20.039
little snakes and we can have that there's little stores.

864
00:38:20.099 --> 00:38:21.000
And you know what I mean?

865
00:38:21.059 --> 00:38:23.880
Like we're suddenly in the world where, you know, we've had Mara

866
00:38:23.880 --> 00:38:26.460
Mania and there's all this merchandise available.

867
00:38:26.519 --> 00:38:28.500
Yeah, I think they could have extended that to Doctor Who

868
00:38:28.500 --> 00:38:29.099
conventions.

869
00:38:29.159 --> 00:38:31.320
Can you imagine someone going around with pails of water and

870
00:38:31.320 --> 00:38:33.599
you'll get sloshed unless you can name the story code for the ice

871
00:38:33.599 --> 00:38:34.199
water?

872
00:38:35.940 --> 00:38:40.079
Oh, in case...

873
00:38:40.500 --> 00:38:44.039
Said no one who brought in the warriors ever.

874
00:38:47.280 --> 00:38:51.059
But I think that what's happened is we bring them back.

875
00:38:51.119 --> 00:38:52.679
We get it to do its party pieces.

876
00:38:52.739 --> 00:38:56.340
Then we do something different with it and then we give it...

877
00:38:56.340 --> 00:38:58.440
Without destroying it. without destroying the concept.

878
00:38:58.739 --> 00:38:58.920
Exactly.

879
00:38:58.980 --> 00:39:03.059
We give it an origin story that makes sense that somehow doesn't

880
00:39:03.059 --> 00:39:03.719
ruin anything.

881
00:39:03.780 --> 00:39:07.079
And then we kill it off and we don't go back there again.

882
00:39:07.139 --> 00:39:09.420
And I think that might be perfect.

883
00:39:24.300 --> 00:39:28.139
What about the realisation of Menusa and so on, in terms of it

884
00:39:28.139 --> 00:39:31.800
being a, you know, this planet which has been not so much taken

885
00:39:31.800 --> 00:39:33.659
over, but adopted by the Federation?

886
00:39:33.719 --> 00:39:34.980
It's kind of what do we feel about that?

887
00:39:35.039 --> 00:39:38.039
I don't think that that's actually what's happening if you look at

888
00:39:38.039 --> 00:39:39.179
what's said about the history.

889
00:39:39.239 --> 00:39:42.599
And part of the thing is that we're kind of reading it like India

890
00:39:42.599 --> 00:39:45.000
under the Raj.

891
00:39:45.059 --> 00:39:45.840
Do you know what I mean?

892
00:39:45.900 --> 00:39:49.019
And you've got the federator who's basically the governor and then

893
00:39:49.019 --> 00:39:51.719
you've got the governor's son and everyone's sort of deferential

894
00:39:51.719 --> 00:39:53.400
to them and stuff.

895
00:39:53.460 --> 00:39:57.539
But when Tana talks about the culture of the planet.

896
00:39:57.599 --> 00:40:01.320
She talks about our culture and our history.

897
00:40:01.380 --> 00:40:03.179
And so the federation.

898
00:40:03.239 --> 00:40:07.920
I don't think is like the Galactic Federation or something

899
00:40:07.920 --> 00:40:09.300
external.

900
00:40:09.360 --> 00:40:12.539
It's something that the Menusians have developed.

901
00:40:12.599 --> 00:40:14.699
So I don't see...

902
00:40:14.820 --> 00:40:16.019
I think it's the manusens of development.

903
00:40:16.079 --> 00:40:16.800
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

904
00:40:16.860 --> 00:40:18.420
Oh, I thought they were wrestling.

905
00:40:18.480 --> 00:40:21.000
I thought, no, I thought they were rescued from the Mara by the

906
00:40:21.000 --> 00:40:21.659
Federation.

907
00:40:21.719 --> 00:40:22.500
They developed years ago.

908
00:40:22.559 --> 00:40:25.320
So the Federator comes and destroys it, but there's no indication

909
00:40:25.320 --> 00:40:27.239
the Federator is from another planet.

910
00:40:27.300 --> 00:40:30.659
No, I just thought it was a fairly benevolent one. not saying it's

911
00:40:30.659 --> 00:40:33.719
kind of a, yeah, without a colonisation, more like an EU slash

912
00:40:33.719 --> 00:40:34.320
type thing.

913
00:40:34.380 --> 00:40:36.780
I think that we're inclined to read it that way just because of

914
00:40:36.780 --> 00:40:39.960
the way that, you know, all of the colonialism aesthetics and

915
00:40:39.960 --> 00:40:43.079
stuff that we have, but I don't think that that's there in the

916
00:40:43.079 --> 00:40:43.500
script.

917
00:40:43.500 --> 00:40:48.840
And I do think, like, the odd thing for Tarn had to say is it's

918
00:40:48.840 --> 00:40:51.780
our customs and our history and all of that kind of thing.

919
00:40:51.840 --> 00:40:56.159
And the federator is their ancestor, but they're not alien.

920
00:40:56.219 --> 00:40:56.880
I don't know.

921
00:40:56.940 --> 00:40:57.900
But they are visiting.

922
00:40:57.960 --> 00:41:01.860
She clearly doesn't live where they live because he doesn't have

923
00:41:01.860 --> 00:41:05.400
day-to-day contact with Amber or with his predecessor, Doja.

924
00:41:05.460 --> 00:41:05.880
She met him once.

925
00:41:05.940 --> 00:41:08.760
And the Federator is somewhere else.

926
00:41:08.880 --> 00:41:11.159
So he's representing the Federation.

927
00:41:11.219 --> 00:41:12.900
The sun is representing the Federator.

928
00:41:12.960 --> 00:41:15.059
And remember, she's being taken to the museums and so on.

929
00:41:15.059 --> 00:41:17.039
She's being introduced to all these people.

930
00:41:17.099 --> 00:41:17.820
Because he's really old.

931
00:41:17.880 --> 00:41:19.619
He's really old.

932
00:41:19.679 --> 00:41:21.480
Isn't that the impression you get?

933
00:41:21.539 --> 00:41:21.960
Yes.

934
00:41:21.960 --> 00:41:22.260
Yeah.

935
00:41:22.320 --> 00:41:23.219
He's incredibly old.

936
00:41:23.280 --> 00:41:24.840
She's much younger than him.

937
00:41:24.900 --> 00:41:25.679
They've married.

938
00:41:25.739 --> 00:41:28.679
She doesn't really care for him all that much.

939
00:41:28.739 --> 00:41:31.980
She's like the perfect 1st lady and that she's the power behind

940
00:41:31.980 --> 00:41:32.519
the throne.

941
00:41:32.639 --> 00:41:35.760
But I think that also she's transferred her affection from her

942
00:41:35.760 --> 00:41:38.940
horrible old husband to her son.

943
00:41:39.000 --> 00:41:42.900
Yes. in a way that you see with sort of horrifically rich old

944
00:41:42.900 --> 00:41:43.739
people.

945
00:41:43.800 --> 00:41:47.039
See, perhaps Trump and Murdoch.

946
00:41:47.099 --> 00:41:51.480
You know, that they have much younger wives who are kind of more

947
00:41:51.480 --> 00:41:53.340
obsessed with their sons and stuff.

948
00:41:53.400 --> 00:41:54.900
And there's that wonderful moment.

949
00:41:54.960 --> 00:41:58.679
There's one scene where she's got her back to Lon and isn't

950
00:41:58.679 --> 00:42:01.440
talking to him because he's been rude to her.

951
00:42:01.500 --> 00:42:04.739
And then in the next scene, their friends get and she's back and

952
00:42:04.739 --> 00:42:06.780
he goes, oh, am I forgiven?

953
00:42:06.840 --> 00:42:08.579
And she just says, aren't you always?

954
00:42:08.639 --> 00:42:12.179
That's a wonderful scene where she stalks out because he won't

955
00:42:12.179 --> 00:42:14.400
accompany her to the dinner with Amber.

956
00:42:14.460 --> 00:42:17.760
And within 10 seconds, she's back exhausting him to come again.

957
00:42:17.820 --> 00:42:18.239
Yes.

958
00:42:18.239 --> 00:42:19.559
It was really funny.

959
00:42:19.619 --> 00:42:22.199
We go to another scene, I think, with a doctor and this or

960
00:42:22.199 --> 00:42:22.440
something.

961
00:42:22.500 --> 00:42:23.400
And then she comes back.

962
00:42:23.460 --> 00:42:24.719
It's like, has she come back?

963
00:42:24.840 --> 00:42:26.760
Oh, no, no, she's only been gone for like a minute.

964
00:42:26.820 --> 00:42:28.619
Yes, yes, I've gone to get a scarf or something.

965
00:42:28.679 --> 00:42:32.699
This is a JNT thing, and it, again, is one of the creative

966
00:42:32.699 --> 00:42:35.219
processes that JNT was not a master of.

967
00:42:35.280 --> 00:42:39.960
He apparently insisted for reasons of providing momentum, although

968
00:42:39.960 --> 00:42:42.179
it never does because it doesn't work in a storytelling way.

969
00:42:42.239 --> 00:42:46.019
Chopping up longer scenes into bite-sized shorter scenes and

970
00:42:46.019 --> 00:42:46.920
they're just cutting between them.

971
00:42:46.980 --> 00:42:49.860
And this is the problem at the start of the story, where you have

972
00:42:49.860 --> 00:42:52.920
a 10 seconds in the TARDIS. 10 seconds of long coming down the

973
00:42:52.920 --> 00:42:56.340
stairs. 10 seconds back in the Tartars. 10 seconds.

974
00:42:56.400 --> 00:42:57.059
Well, not quite.

975
00:42:57.059 --> 00:42:58.019
O'Neill's.

976
00:42:58.079 --> 00:42:58.920
Well, some of them are.

977
00:42:58.980 --> 00:43:01.500
Well, it's funny because that's the editing they've tried to put

978
00:43:01.500 --> 00:43:03.780
into the colourisation of the Daleks and the war games.

979
00:43:03.840 --> 00:43:05.039
Yes, indeed.

980
00:43:05.280 --> 00:43:09.420
It's trying to provide impetus to the storytelling.

981
00:43:09.719 --> 00:43:13.800
It doesn't work because all it means is that you're losing that

982
00:43:13.800 --> 00:43:17.519
rhythm of a longer, more interesting scene between Tana and her

983
00:43:17.519 --> 00:43:20.099
son by just cutting away to the top.

984
00:43:20.159 --> 00:43:20.760
I think it depends.

985
00:43:20.820 --> 00:43:22.079
It depends on the contents of the scenes.

986
00:43:22.139 --> 00:43:24.719
For that to work, in some respects, you need the 2 scenes to be

987
00:43:24.719 --> 00:43:28.800
much more interesting than either of them are. think that's

988
00:43:28.800 --> 00:43:28.980
right.

989
00:43:29.099 --> 00:43:32.039
You're going to be running in tandem in some way.

990
00:43:32.099 --> 00:43:33.659
Yeah, I know. running in tandem.

991
00:43:33.719 --> 00:43:33.960
Exactly.

992
00:43:34.019 --> 00:43:36.900
They're feeding you different parts of the same story as opposed

993
00:43:36.900 --> 00:43:38.940
to just being stuff that's happening on screen.

994
00:43:39.059 --> 00:43:41.639
I wasn't necessarily suggesting before they were trying to make

995
00:43:41.639 --> 00:43:44.340
any commentary on colonialism because I don't think that's what it

996
00:43:44.340 --> 00:43:44.820
thought.

997
00:43:44.880 --> 00:43:47.039
And I take on board your points, but I think they are definitely

998
00:43:47.039 --> 00:43:48.119
from somewhere else.

999
00:43:48.179 --> 00:43:50.940
It's more a kind of a flavour of like the Middle East or something

1000
00:43:50.940 --> 00:43:51.539
that we're in.

1001
00:43:51.599 --> 00:43:52.679
We're not in India.

1002
00:43:52.739 --> 00:43:57.480
We're in even Morocco or Tunisia or something. mentions Morocco.

1003
00:43:57.539 --> 00:44:00.840
I think maybe the designer mentions having been to Morocco.

1004
00:44:00.900 --> 00:44:02.699
It's very, yes, and I think it's Marrakech.

1005
00:44:03.059 --> 00:44:05.340
I think the market is inspired by Marakesh.

1006
00:44:05.400 --> 00:44:08.039
Even with all the hucksters and so on like that, where, you know

1007
00:44:08.039 --> 00:44:12.000
we Westerners often go to these, all these countries for tourism

1008
00:44:12.000 --> 00:44:14.219
to gorp and gape and take photos for Instagram and so on like

1009
00:44:14.219 --> 00:44:14.400
that.

1010
00:44:14.460 --> 00:44:16.739
And one of the things we do is we go to something like the Great

1011
00:44:16.739 --> 00:44:20.880
Wall of China, and we come out of the Great Wall of China, or in

1012
00:44:20.880 --> 00:44:24.300
this case, the snake's mouth, and all these people rush up to you

1013
00:44:24.300 --> 00:44:25.920
wanting to sell their trinkets to you.

1014
00:44:25.980 --> 00:44:29.280
Because all of the people, basically, there's a sense that there

1015
00:44:29.280 --> 00:44:32.099
is tourism here, like off-world tourism coming.

1016
00:44:32.099 --> 00:44:34.440
And, you know, you start at the top of the Great Wall of China and

1017
00:44:34.440 --> 00:44:37.320
they're trying to sell you t-shirts for $5 and by the time you get

1018
00:44:37.320 --> 00:44:39.840
to the bottom of the Great Wall, they try to sell you 3 t-shirts

1019
00:44:39.840 --> 00:44:40.260
for a dollar.

1020
00:44:40.260 --> 00:44:44.280
And that's the sort of the effect that I got from the market and

1021
00:44:44.280 --> 00:44:46.619
from the snakes, particularly coming out of the snake's mouth.

1022
00:44:46.679 --> 00:44:48.239
That could have been a bit more effective.

1023
00:44:48.300 --> 00:44:51.179
It's almost like the snake's mouth is not the natural formation of

1024
00:44:51.179 --> 00:44:53.940
the cave and it wasn't carved that way out of some kind of fealty

1025
00:44:53.940 --> 00:44:54.659
to the Mara.

1026
00:44:54.719 --> 00:44:56.760
It's done for tourism purposes.

1027
00:44:56.880 --> 00:44:57.539
Yes exactly.

1028
00:44:57.599 --> 00:45:00.659
But I think that that's partly a function of it looking crap.

1029
00:45:00.719 --> 00:45:03.000
Like, I mean, do you know what I mean?

1030
00:45:03.059 --> 00:45:08.519
Like, there are incredibly beautifully sculpted rock formations

1031
00:45:08.519 --> 00:45:11.760
and stone buildings and things, which it could easily have looked

1032
00:45:11.760 --> 00:45:14.519
more like instead of a shiny plastic thing.

1033
00:45:14.639 --> 00:45:15.900
Well, you know, yeah.

1034
00:45:16.260 --> 00:45:20.699
But the thing is that both stories, like both kinder and snake

1035
00:45:20.699 --> 00:45:24.480
dance have things to say about colonialism, and I think kinder is

1036
00:45:24.480 --> 00:45:26.460
more clearly about colonialism.

1037
00:45:26.519 --> 00:45:29.280
Sanders wears a pith helmet, for God's sake.

1038
00:45:29.400 --> 00:45:30.900
So it's very...

1039
00:45:30.900 --> 00:45:32.519
And they're very much about civilising the natives.

1040
00:45:32.579 --> 00:45:34.019
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right.

1041
00:45:34.079 --> 00:45:34.739
That's right.

1042
00:45:34.800 --> 00:45:38.639
Maybe about men and women as well, about the ways that men and

1043
00:45:38.639 --> 00:45:43.440
women look at things differently too, which seems to be absent

1044
00:45:43.440 --> 00:45:44.579
from this, I think.

1045
00:45:44.880 --> 00:45:47.760
It just looks too appallingly cheap.

1046
00:45:47.820 --> 00:45:50.159
Even to the early 80s. just looks cheap.

1047
00:45:50.219 --> 00:45:52.980
And it probably wasn't as cheap as all that, but it looks like it

1048
00:45:52.980 --> 00:45:53.880
was the budget saving story.

1049
00:45:53.940 --> 00:45:57.780
I think there are so many sets and each set looks tiny.

1050
00:45:57.840 --> 00:46:02.699
And the market set, which is meant to be impressive, looks like an

1051
00:46:02.699 --> 00:46:06.719
amateur theatrical production, sort of made out of plywood.

1052
00:46:06.780 --> 00:46:10.260
And it doesn't always look like that in the 80s.

1053
00:46:10.320 --> 00:46:14.159
And you think about, say, Frontios the following year, which is

1054
00:46:14.159 --> 00:46:18.239
not particularly well mounted, but it looks better.

1055
00:46:18.239 --> 00:46:22.079
And that trick with the white cycloramas on, you know, representing

1056
00:46:22.079 --> 00:46:25.739
the sky works, I think, quite well when they're on top of the

1057
00:46:25.739 --> 00:46:27.599
colony ship in Frontios.

1058
00:46:27.659 --> 00:46:31.800
That actually kind of, it's better than it is here, I think.

1059
00:46:31.860 --> 00:46:35.039
Look, I think the show has not moved with this audience.

1060
00:46:35.099 --> 00:46:38.760
It's making sort of small moves forward with effects and things

1061
00:46:38.760 --> 00:46:39.420
like that.

1062
00:46:39.480 --> 00:46:42.360
But the way that you make television, the way that Doctor Who is

1063
00:46:42.360 --> 00:46:47.159
being made and presenting alien environments and, you know, putting

1064
00:46:47.159 --> 00:46:48.179
fantasy onto the screen.

1065
00:46:48.239 --> 00:46:50.639
The audience has moved ahead of it.

1066
00:46:50.699 --> 00:46:52.920
It's no longer viable to do it that way.

1067
00:46:52.980 --> 00:46:57.179
And I think the breaking point was the prehistoric Heath in time

1068
00:46:57.179 --> 00:47:01.800
flights last year, which anyone should have looked at that and

1069
00:47:01.800 --> 00:47:05.219
said that is absolutely no way we are going to be able to mount

1070
00:47:05.219 --> 00:47:07.320
that on screen so we shouldn't try.

1071
00:47:07.380 --> 00:47:10.679
And I think this is probably, they shouldn't have tried to have

1072
00:47:10.679 --> 00:47:11.099
done this.

1073
00:47:11.159 --> 00:47:12.599
They should have found other ways around.

1074
00:47:12.659 --> 00:47:14.280
They should have made it an indoor market.

1075
00:47:14.340 --> 00:47:17.880
They should have found ways of bringing that indoors and down to

1076
00:47:17.880 --> 00:47:20.219
earth and mounting it successfully rather than trying something

1077
00:47:20.219 --> 00:47:24.239
that will look silly on screen, and which I think starts to give

1078
00:47:24.239 --> 00:47:26.579
Doctor Who its reputation for looking ropey.

1079
00:47:26.639 --> 00:47:29.940
It was always lampooned for having shaking walls and things like

1080
00:47:29.940 --> 00:47:30.179
that.

1081
00:47:30.239 --> 00:47:33.179
But people never really thought it looked terrible.

1082
00:47:33.239 --> 00:47:36.840
In the 1980s it sometimes starts to look terrible. where we'll see

1083
00:47:36.840 --> 00:47:38.880
more of that next week in Warriors of the Deep.

1084
00:47:38.940 --> 00:47:41.039
There's no quality control.

1085
00:47:41.099 --> 00:47:44.880
You'll have things which look fantastic and things which look

1086
00:47:44.880 --> 00:47:45.300
awful.

1087
00:47:45.360 --> 00:47:49.019
There's none of this Hinchcliff, what can we achieve and we'll do

1088
00:47:49.019 --> 00:47:49.199
that?

1089
00:47:49.260 --> 00:47:51.539
I agree with you, but only to a point.

1090
00:47:51.599 --> 00:47:53.159
Story of our lives.

1091
00:47:55.440 --> 00:48:00.300
I think that the crappy lookingness of Doctor Who had already well

1092
00:48:00.300 --> 00:48:01.380
and truly started by that.

1093
00:48:01.440 --> 00:48:04.679
It starts very much in the graham when he was era with invisible

1094
00:48:04.679 --> 00:48:05.880
enemy and then underworld.

1095
00:48:05.880 --> 00:48:06.719
Yeah, failed productions.

1096
00:48:06.719 --> 00:48:08.280
Actually, things that failed.

1097
00:48:08.340 --> 00:48:10.679
And it's either because they're too ambitious, budget cuts

1098
00:48:10.679 --> 00:48:12.480
whatever it is, inflation, et cetera.

1099
00:48:12.539 --> 00:48:13.139
You're right.

1100
00:48:13.199 --> 00:48:15.659
They should have thought, what can we realistically achieve?

1101
00:48:15.719 --> 00:48:16.679
So I agree with that.

1102
00:48:16.739 --> 00:48:20.400
I think you're being a little bit, the memory cheats, there I

1103
00:48:20.400 --> 00:48:21.300
suggest a little bit.

1104
00:48:21.360 --> 00:48:25.679
And I think that you're still getting this kind of inside studio

1105
00:48:25.679 --> 00:48:30.780
representing an outdoor thing in regular television at this point

1106
00:48:30.780 --> 00:48:34.139
quite commonly across all genres, including premium prestigious

1107
00:48:34.139 --> 00:48:34.980
genres.

1108
00:48:35.039 --> 00:48:37.860
Something like iCloud is maybe 1975, but there are other examples

1109
00:48:37.860 --> 00:48:40.440
which are later, where you've got things that are supposed to be

1110
00:48:40.440 --> 00:48:42.719
outside, but they're actually obviously inside the studio.

1111
00:48:42.780 --> 00:48:45.000
And remember, several years later in happiness patrol.

1112
00:48:45.059 --> 00:48:46.139
They're trying to still do that.

1113
00:48:46.199 --> 00:48:49.860
They're trying to have an outside city all within the studio.

1114
00:48:49.920 --> 00:48:53.039
So I think Doctor Who starts to lag and starts to fall behind

1115
00:48:53.039 --> 00:48:55.619
those kind of production standards because they just think that

1116
00:48:55.619 --> 00:48:56.699
that's how we have to do it.

1117
00:48:56.760 --> 00:49:00.539
But I think saying it's happening already in late 82, which is

1118
00:49:00.539 --> 00:49:02.579
when this is shot, is probably a little early.

1119
00:49:02.639 --> 00:49:09.300
See, I remember very strongly tuning into the leisure hive and

1120
00:49:09.300 --> 00:49:13.860
then all of season 18, which I don't think has like an appreciable

1121
00:49:13.860 --> 00:49:20.400
increase in budget, but it just spends the money better.

1122
00:49:20.460 --> 00:49:22.440
And I spoke to you about this.

1123
00:49:22.500 --> 00:49:28.380
I think, Peter, and it was the sets, the quality of the sets in

1124
00:49:28.380 --> 00:49:28.860
that season.

1125
00:49:28.920 --> 00:49:33.840
So every shot that you're looking at has impressive looking sets.

1126
00:49:33.900 --> 00:49:36.840
Now, the money runs out by Lagopolis and the sets are not

1127
00:49:36.840 --> 00:49:37.440
impressive.

1128
00:49:37.500 --> 00:49:41.460
But, you know, things like full circle, for instance.

1129
00:49:42.059 --> 00:49:43.920
Keeper of Trunk.

1130
00:49:44.639 --> 00:49:47.579
Well, your leisure hive, but even even the sort of the lasher

1131
00:49:47.579 --> 00:49:50.519
aggressive vegetation of the planet Tigella looks pretty gray.

1132
00:49:50.579 --> 00:49:52.500
Even if Zulf Thura doesn't look safe.

1133
00:49:52.559 --> 00:49:53.639
No.

1134
00:49:53.699 --> 00:49:54.179
Yeah, yeah.

1135
00:49:54.239 --> 00:49:58.139
And it's trying something different, but there's a real attempt to

1136
00:49:58.139 --> 00:50:00.599
do something visually impressive.

1137
00:50:00.599 --> 00:50:04.739
And it's astounding that the following year already.

1138
00:50:05.219 --> 00:50:08.039
It starts to fall to weird, isn't it?

1139
00:50:08.099 --> 00:50:10.559
And, you know, there are other reasons you don't have bid meat

1140
00:50:10.559 --> 00:50:13.500
anymore and stuff, but just on the production side of what things

1141
00:50:13.500 --> 00:50:14.099
look like.

1142
00:50:14.159 --> 00:50:17.159
But I think, as you said, we don't have been made anymore.

1143
00:50:17.219 --> 00:50:20.039
I think maybe that implies to me that Christopher Bidmeat is the

1144
00:50:20.039 --> 00:50:23.340
one saying to the writer, no, we can't afford that loser set, lose

1145
00:50:23.340 --> 00:50:24.420
a character, whatever it is.

1146
00:50:24.480 --> 00:50:26.159
Yeah, we can achieve.

1147
00:50:26.219 --> 00:50:29.039
I think what the problem by the time you get to Snake Dance is

1148
00:50:29.039 --> 00:50:33.780
that I think the production team, uh, Eric Saywood and JNT are

1149
00:50:33.780 --> 00:50:35.639
starting to get a little bit too ambitious about what they think

1150
00:50:35.639 --> 00:50:38.039
they can achieve, possibly from the success of things like

1151
00:50:38.039 --> 00:50:41.519
Earthshock and the successive aspects of season 18.

1152
00:50:41.639 --> 00:50:45.179
Richard Martin said to me in an interview once, disparagingly.

1153
00:50:45.239 --> 00:50:47.760
He was talking about Dave Whittaker. were you disparaging back to

1154
00:50:47.760 --> 00:50:47.880
him?

1155
00:50:48.539 --> 00:50:51.059
Richard Martin disparaged everybody.

1156
00:50:51.119 --> 00:50:53.579
But he was particularly disparaging of David Whittaker.

1157
00:50:53.639 --> 00:50:56.400
He said he was the script editor, and he said it was his job to

1158
00:50:56.400 --> 00:50:59.340
say, I've gone through, and I've edited this script, and of course

1159
00:50:59.340 --> 00:51:02.039
you can't film in King's Cross Station, so I've set it in a corner

1160
00:51:02.039 --> 00:51:03.000
of the lavatory.

1161
00:51:03.059 --> 00:51:04.440
Now, Christopher H.

1162
00:51:04.440 --> 00:51:06.900
Bidmead was probably making sure they weren't going to be able to

1163
00:51:06.900 --> 00:51:09.179
film in King's Cross Station, and so they had to set it in a

1164
00:51:09.179 --> 00:51:10.559
corner of the lavatory, and that worked.

1165
00:51:10.619 --> 00:51:12.780
But look at what he does with Warriors Gate.

1166
00:51:12.840 --> 00:51:14.099
You haven't got as many sets, do you?

1167
00:51:14.219 --> 00:51:15.179
Because you got all white void.

1168
00:51:15.239 --> 00:51:17.400
And look how good, therefore, the ship looks.

1169
00:51:17.460 --> 00:51:19.920
And also the fabulousness of the gate.

1170
00:51:20.519 --> 00:51:22.860
Yes, the gate and also the Gothic dining table and so on like

1171
00:51:22.860 --> 00:51:23.039
that.

1172
00:51:23.099 --> 00:51:25.980
The notion of what the script territory is doing is correct.

1173
00:51:26.039 --> 00:51:29.280
Okay, ideally you want to see King's Cross station, but you can't

1174
00:51:29.280 --> 00:51:29.760
afford that.

1175
00:51:29.820 --> 00:51:32.280
You can't make the alien planet look great in the studio.

1176
00:51:32.340 --> 00:51:34.079
So set it in a room.

1177
00:51:34.139 --> 00:51:36.360
So we're blaming Eric Saywood. that acceptable?

1178
00:51:36.420 --> 00:51:37.199
As always.

1179
00:51:38.519 --> 00:51:41.820
I mean, a lot of people are taking their eyes off the ball here

1180
00:51:41.820 --> 00:51:45.059
and one of the problems of 1980s stock 2, and it becomes more

1181
00:51:45.059 --> 00:51:48.119
pronounced as it goes along, and then gets pulled back.

1182
00:51:48.179 --> 00:51:50.579
So again, that might be an argument for the script editor because

1183
00:51:50.579 --> 00:51:53.159
you have Andrew Cartmel looking after the script later on.

1184
00:51:53.219 --> 00:51:55.079
One of the problems is quality control.

1185
00:51:55.139 --> 00:51:59.579
So I mentioned earlier that you would rarely get great scripts

1186
00:51:59.579 --> 00:52:00.420
with great production.

1187
00:52:00.480 --> 00:52:02.760
You would have a good script, which some have been married to

1188
00:52:02.760 --> 00:52:06.119
adequate or poor production and vice versa.

1189
00:52:06.179 --> 00:52:09.659
Even from scene to scene and episode to episode, the quality

1190
00:52:09.659 --> 00:52:10.559
control is not there.

1191
00:52:10.619 --> 00:52:13.500
And in this story, you will have one of the really great

1192
00:52:13.500 --> 00:52:18.059
cliffhangers of the 1980s, which is the Mara skull coming out of

1193
00:52:18.059 --> 00:52:20.400
the Crystal Fall, which is the worst one.

1194
00:52:21.300 --> 00:52:24.300
One of the most uninspired ones.

1195
00:52:24.300 --> 00:52:25.679
How did anyone know?

1196
00:52:25.739 --> 00:52:26.940
Oh look, is that the time?

1197
00:52:27.000 --> 00:52:28.199
Yes, exactly.

1198
00:52:28.260 --> 00:52:29.820
Okay, kill them.

1199
00:52:29.880 --> 00:52:30.420
No weight.

1200
00:52:30.480 --> 00:52:31.860
I mean, that has become amazing.

1201
00:52:31.920 --> 00:52:33.000
Not the only time that's happened.

1202
00:52:33.059 --> 00:52:38.519
It's such an egregiously poor example of the drama.

1203
00:52:38.579 --> 00:52:41.820
Can I say, though, that that's actually quite well directed?

1204
00:52:41.940 --> 00:52:44.699
No, no, she runs to what?

1205
00:52:44.760 --> 00:52:45.179
no, no.

1206
00:52:45.239 --> 00:52:48.480
They run towards this figure that they don't even properly see

1207
00:52:48.480 --> 00:52:50.639
that absolutely looms over them.

1208
00:52:50.699 --> 00:52:53.280
Then they run back and there's someone there.

1209
00:52:53.340 --> 00:52:56.579
And then there's that shot that's really nice and symmetrical that

1210
00:52:56.579 --> 00:52:59.940
has the 2 swords coming at them from either side and like there's

1211
00:52:59.940 --> 00:53:01.739
some attempt at composing the shot.

1212
00:53:01.800 --> 00:53:02.880
Che gives a really piercing.

1213
00:53:02.940 --> 00:53:14.699
No, hang on, that was Nissa. screen Snake dance is trying to tell

1214
00:53:14.699 --> 00:53:17.760
2 stories at once, and it doesn't quite pull it off.

1215
00:53:17.820 --> 00:53:22.139
One is the backstory, the history of Manusa, where the Mara came

1216
00:53:22.139 --> 00:53:25.019
from, how it was created, what you can do to destroy it.

1217
00:53:25.079 --> 00:53:28.139
And the doctor is assigned to that branch of the story.

1218
00:53:28.199 --> 00:53:31.079
And then there's what Teen is doing and what she's doing with

1219
00:53:31.079 --> 00:53:31.679
Lon.

1220
00:53:31.739 --> 00:53:33.059
And so this is the presence.

1221
00:53:33.119 --> 00:53:35.039
This is what's the threat is right now.

1222
00:53:35.099 --> 00:53:37.619
This is happening and leading up to the climax.

1223
00:53:37.679 --> 00:53:40.199
The 2 things have got to come together at the climax of the story

1224
00:53:40.199 --> 00:53:43.260
obviously, but they have to be kept apart as much as possible

1225
00:53:43.260 --> 00:53:44.340
until then.

1226
00:53:44.400 --> 00:53:46.980
And so there's a bit of locking up and a bit of stuffing around to

1227
00:53:46.980 --> 00:53:48.900
stop the doctor walking in at the wrong moment.

1228
00:53:48.960 --> 00:53:51.239
So he can be there just in the nick of time.

1229
00:53:51.300 --> 00:53:53.099
And I do think it suffers from that.

1230
00:53:53.099 --> 00:53:54.000
Mm.

1231
00:54:19.500 --> 00:54:22.500
Well, that's all time we have this week.

1232
00:54:22.559 --> 00:54:26.579
We'll be back next week to watch the Silurians encounter Chekhov's

1233
00:54:26.579 --> 00:54:28.980
hexachromite gas in Warriors of the Deep.

1234
00:54:29.039 --> 00:54:32.099
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts

1235
00:54:32.099 --> 00:54:35.880
and you can keep up with us on our website, 500yearDiary.com, where

1236
00:54:35.880 --> 00:54:38.820
you'll find our social media links, as well as links to all of our

1237
00:54:38.820 --> 00:54:42.599
other podcasts, including our other Doctor Who podcasts, flight

1238
00:54:42.599 --> 00:54:45.840
through entirety, and the 2nd great and bountiful Human Empire.

1239
00:54:46.559 --> 00:54:51.300
Until next time, do not take up serpents, and if you drink any

1240
00:54:51.300 --> 00:54:53.340
deadly thing, it shall hurt you.

1241
00:54:53.400 --> 00:54:54.960
So snap out of it.

1242
00:54:55.019 --> 00:54:57.300
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

1243
00:54:57.360 --> 00:54:58.739
Good night.

1244
00:54:58.800 --> 00:54:59.639
Good night.

1245
00:54:59.699 --> 00:55:15.719
Bye for now That was 500 Year Diary, starring Nathan Bottomley

1246
00:55:15.719 --> 00:55:17.820
Peter Griffiths, Simon Moore and Kate Orman.

1247
00:55:17.880 --> 00:55:20.159
The theme was composed by Cameron Lamb.

1248
00:55:20.219 --> 00:55:24.780
This episode, Baleful Gaze, was recorded on the 6th of April 2025

1249
00:55:24.780 --> 00:55:26.639
and released on the 25th of May.

1250
00:55:26.699 --> 00:55:30.420
This series of Doctor Who is nearing its end, so make sure you're

1251
00:55:30.420 --> 00:55:33.239
subscribed to our Doctor Who Flashcast, the 2nd great and

1252
00:55:33.239 --> 00:55:34.079
bountiful human empire.

1253
00:55:34.139 --> 00:55:38.219
Our hot take on Wishworld will be released tomorrow, and our take

1254
00:55:38.219 --> 00:55:40.440
on the reality war will be out a week after that.

1255
00:55:40.500 --> 00:55:44.400
Head on over to our website at greatandbountiful.com for more

1256
00:55:44.400 --> 00:55:44.880
details.

1257
00:55:55.260 --> 00:55:58.199
Can I just talk about the Australian experience for a moment?

1258
00:55:58.260 --> 00:55:58.739
Yeah.

1259
00:55:59.639 --> 00:56:00.659
And this can be in the tag.

1260
00:56:01.199 --> 00:56:06.000
It's interesting that this, like Arc of Infinity, were not

1261
00:56:06.000 --> 00:56:10.139
repeated, at least not for many years, unusually, after having

1262
00:56:10.139 --> 00:56:14.639
seasons 18 and 19 premiere back-to-back for us in 1982, we then

1263
00:56:14.639 --> 00:56:18.780
had, they tried to kind of expand season 20 by having a repeat of

1264
00:56:18.780 --> 00:56:20.820
Black Orchard shock.

1265
00:56:20.880 --> 00:56:23.280
The reason they did this was that Peter Davison was visiting

1266
00:56:23.280 --> 00:56:26.340
Australia ahead of the new season and they wanted to have his

1267
00:56:26.340 --> 00:56:27.780
Doctor Who on while he was here.

1268
00:56:27.840 --> 00:56:30.480
And they didn't quite probably have the new... episodes, yeah.

1269
00:56:30.539 --> 00:56:31.619
Right. didn't realise that was the reason.

1270
00:56:31.739 --> 00:56:33.539
I always assumed mentally that because I didn't...

1271
00:56:33.539 --> 00:56:35.519
So they started the season 2 weeks early with Black Orchard.

1272
00:56:35.579 --> 00:56:36.179
I had a sent.

1273
00:56:36.239 --> 00:56:36.480
Okay.

1274
00:56:36.539 --> 00:56:41.519
But anyway, so that means that we saw, as we all saw as children

1275
00:56:41.519 --> 00:56:43.739
Black Hawk are shocking time, like, again in the leader.

1276
00:56:43.800 --> 00:56:48.659
And then later, for reasons which is for another podcast episode

1277
00:56:48.659 --> 00:56:52.380
because of season 2 issues with season 21 with the censorship, they

1278
00:56:52.380 --> 00:56:55.440
then have to go off back and do all these repeats in the middle of

1279
00:56:55.440 --> 00:56:57.059
the 1st transmission of season 21.

1280
00:56:57.239 --> 00:57:01.739
And those repeats include Morden and Dead onwards of season 20, but

1281
00:57:01.739 --> 00:57:03.480
not Arc of Infinity and Snakedowns.

1282
00:57:03.539 --> 00:57:07.679
So these, this anarch of Infinity are to me almost like missing

1283
00:57:07.679 --> 00:57:13.019
stories of the 80s, because after I saw them way back in my

1284
00:57:13.019 --> 00:57:16.199
childhood when I was 10, I think I didn't see them again until I

1285
00:57:16.199 --> 00:57:16.860
was practically 20.

1286
00:57:17.099 --> 00:57:22.440
And even then, if you recall, the source we had, Peter, of these

1287
00:57:22.440 --> 00:57:27.480
of these tapes was missing, episode 3 or part of episode 3 of

1288
00:57:27.480 --> 00:57:28.079
Snake Downs.

1289
00:57:28.139 --> 00:57:31.800
And so episode 3 of Snake Dance was for us, this weird missing

1290
00:57:31.800 --> 00:57:35.460
episode that we only saw half of, and we have a dim memory of

1291
00:57:35.460 --> 00:57:37.559
having watched it in 1983.

1292
00:57:37.739 --> 00:57:41.280
So my experiences, and I think I said this on flights for entirety

1293
00:57:41.280 --> 00:57:44.880
that I was so annoyed at the doctor for leaving Tegan behind at

1294
00:57:44.880 --> 00:57:48.599
the end of time flight that I didn't tune in to Arc of Infinity.

1295
00:57:48.659 --> 00:57:52.320
I said, I'm done, and I may be getting obsessed with this show in

1296
00:57:52.320 --> 00:57:56.460
a way that's unhealthy and I'm not going to...

1297
00:57:56.519 --> 00:57:57.480
What happened?

1298
00:57:59.280 --> 00:58:04.380
These days it seems like quite a good idea that you might have...

1299
00:58:04.380 --> 00:58:12.119
And then, and then I tried to tape episode one of Snake Dance and

1300
00:58:12.119 --> 00:58:18.000
set the timer to 12 hours late and it never...

1301
00:58:18.059 --> 00:58:18.659
Yeah, that's right.

1302
00:58:18.719 --> 00:58:20.519
And so obviously, I thought I would never see it again.

1303
00:58:20.579 --> 00:58:22.380
And you almost didn't.

1304
00:58:22.440 --> 00:58:24.119
I think I have 3 copies of that.

1305
00:58:25.860 --> 00:58:31.739
Season 20, I think, is one of the most underwhelming runs of

1306
00:58:31.739 --> 00:58:32.820
Doctor Who ever.

1307
00:58:32.880 --> 00:58:38.159
There just seems to be very little aspiration for it beyond let's

1308
00:58:38.159 --> 00:58:41.400
pretend that there's something from the series history and every

1309
00:58:41.400 --> 00:58:41.519
story.

1310
00:58:41.639 --> 00:58:44.099
I mean, there always was anyway.

1311
00:58:44.159 --> 00:58:45.539
Exactly.

1312
00:58:45.780 --> 00:58:47.699
That was a retcon.

1313
00:58:47.760 --> 00:58:48.179
Yeah.

1314
00:58:48.179 --> 00:58:49.800
Someone realising it was.

1315
00:58:49.860 --> 00:58:50.280
Yeah.

1316
00:58:50.340 --> 00:58:53.340
There doesn't seem to be any aspirations for the storytelling.

1317
00:58:53.400 --> 00:58:55.440
I think it's stymied a little bit by the fact that they lose the

1318
00:58:55.440 --> 00:58:56.400
Dalek story at the end.

1319
00:58:56.460 --> 00:58:59.760
I think that distorts the shape of the season a little bit.

1320
00:58:59.820 --> 00:59:02.519
They would have improved it, but you would have still your

1321
00:59:02.519 --> 00:59:03.539
takeaway would have been better.

1322
00:59:03.599 --> 00:59:06.300
I mean, I like there is there look, I like enlightenment.

1323
00:59:06.360 --> 00:59:07.619
There are things, but there's nothing great.

1324
00:59:07.679 --> 00:59:11.340
There is nothing even, it's not great in season 20.

1325
00:59:11.639 --> 00:59:12.420
It's vanilla.

1326
00:59:12.480 --> 00:59:14.880
Vanilla is the word. beige.

1327
00:59:15.480 --> 00:59:15.780
Absolutely.

1328
00:59:15.900 --> 00:59:20.280
Modern undead is and the beijest of them all, you know. terminus

1329
00:59:20.280 --> 00:59:20.639
as well.

1330
00:59:20.699 --> 00:59:22.619
I mean, I like a lot of these stories.

1331
00:59:22.739 --> 00:59:23.400
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1332
00:59:23.460 --> 00:59:27.179
I do too I remember on flight through entirety, Todd spending like

1333
00:59:27.179 --> 00:59:30.960
6 weeks complaining that no one was getting killed and he was

1334
00:59:30.960 --> 00:59:31.619
getting really annoyed.

1335
00:59:31.679 --> 00:59:35.159
I think just as Todd's down the pub conversation.

1336
00:59:35.219 --> 00:59:38.940
Quite seriously, quite seriously, that is a thing. tedious that no

1337
00:59:38.940 --> 00:59:39.659
one's dying around here.

1338
00:59:39.960 --> 00:59:42.900
Well, no, no, no spoken characters.

1339
00:59:42.960 --> 00:59:44.099
No speaking parts.

1340
00:59:44.159 --> 00:59:47.340
And look, there's so there's so much of interest in this script in

1341
00:59:47.340 --> 00:59:47.639
particular.

1342
00:59:47.699 --> 00:59:50.880
I think it's head and shoulders above some of its contemporaries

1343
00:59:50.880 --> 00:59:53.940
which have been previously named and shamed after Infinity

1344
00:59:53.940 --> 00:59:55.260
Terminus, Kings, Demons.

1345
00:59:55.320 --> 00:59:56.940
There's a lot more to it.

1346
00:59:57.000 --> 01:00:01.139
And yet the telling of it, the the, the delivery of it on screen

1347
01:00:01.139 --> 01:00:02.880
is so curiously muted.

1348
01:00:02.940 --> 01:00:04.199
Yes, muted.

1349
01:00:04.260 --> 01:00:05.820
Pedestrian.

1350
01:00:05.880 --> 01:00:10.980
I feel like it is in season 20, the show is, which is going back

1351
01:00:10.980 --> 01:00:14.639
to what you were saying before, I think, but less about the fact

1352
01:00:14.639 --> 01:00:16.559
that we've got a cyclorama for the outside world.

1353
01:00:16.619 --> 01:00:18.000
It is behind the times.

1354
01:00:18.059 --> 01:00:21.239
I feel like it is rather than pushing boundaries forward of

1355
01:00:21.239 --> 01:00:22.079
television production.

1356
01:00:22.139 --> 01:00:23.219
It's lagging at this point.

1357
01:00:23.280 --> 01:00:24.119
That's right.

1358
01:00:24.179 --> 01:00:25.679
It's suddenly a tired series.

1359
01:00:26.400 --> 01:00:31.019
Tied in the way it's doing things, tied in its aspirations for the

1360
01:00:31.019 --> 01:00:31.440
audience.

1361
01:00:31.500 --> 01:00:34.920
It's become backward looking with that whole let's have something

1362
01:00:34.920 --> 01:00:38.760
from the past in every show and it will become more backward

1363
01:00:38.760 --> 01:00:40.260
looking rather than forward looking.

1364
01:00:40.260 --> 01:00:44.340
Something is going wrong and it's going wrong at this point.

1365
01:00:44.400 --> 01:00:46.260
And actually, it's an interesting point, Nathan, that you said, you

1366
01:00:46.260 --> 01:00:48.000
know, oh, there's always something coming back.

1367
01:00:48.119 --> 01:00:48.780
And it's true.

1368
01:00:48.840 --> 01:00:51.000
The fact that only at the end when they've kind of basically got

1369
01:00:51.000 --> 01:00:53.699
all the season planned, that Ian Levine, I think it is, points out

1370
01:00:53.699 --> 01:00:55.739
to changing, oh, look, there's something coming back in every

1371
01:00:55.739 --> 01:00:55.980
story.

1372
01:00:56.039 --> 01:00:57.659
We can say that that's part of the 20th anniversary.

1373
01:00:57.719 --> 01:01:02.159
But the fact that that was going to happen anyway is a very poor

1374
01:01:02.159 --> 01:01:03.420
indictment.

1375
01:01:03.480 --> 01:01:08.280
We also suffer in season 20 from basically static direction, which

1376
01:01:08.280 --> 01:01:10.019
comes back to the same point again.

1377
01:01:10.079 --> 01:01:15.239
And even the better directors are only small G good, they're not

1378
01:01:15.239 --> 01:01:15.780
outstanding.

1379
01:01:15.840 --> 01:01:18.960
And there are too many of the Peter Moffatts and the Ron Joneses

1380
01:01:18.960 --> 01:01:19.679
and all those sorts of people.

1381
01:01:19.739 --> 01:01:20.639
Absolutely.

1382
01:01:20.699 --> 01:01:24.360
And the whole misreading of what fandom wanted from the show.

1383
01:01:24.420 --> 01:01:28.559
Fandom wanted a show, like the Hinchcliffe era, like the Graham

1384
01:01:28.559 --> 01:01:32.159
Williams era, that was forward looking and...

1385
01:01:32.219 --> 01:01:34.380
No, no, I'm talking about in sort of concepts and sort of

1386
01:01:34.380 --> 01:01:37.320
ploughing new material, not consistently looking backwards.

1387
01:01:37.320 --> 01:01:41.280
If they were going to do that, then what they needed to do was

1388
01:01:41.280 --> 01:01:42.539
cater to the general public.

1389
01:01:42.539 --> 01:01:44.340
And story one is a Dalek story.

1390
01:01:44.400 --> 01:01:46.079
And story 2 is a cyberman story.

1391
01:01:46.139 --> 01:01:47.699
We finally had the ice Warriors back, yeah.

1392
01:01:47.760 --> 01:01:51.900
Or the yeti, the things that sit in the public consciousness, not

1393
01:01:51.900 --> 01:01:55.739
who the hell is Omega from that one story 10 years ago.

1394
01:01:55.800 --> 01:01:58.139
Not who are the black and white guardians?

1395
01:01:58.260 --> 01:02:00.420
I think actually the black and white Guardians.

1396
01:02:00.480 --> 01:02:04.500
I think, to be fair, is that and the Mara are probably the 2 best

1397
01:02:04.500 --> 01:02:07.079
most interesting things because at least with the black and white

1398
01:02:07.079 --> 01:02:08.159
guardian, you're doing something different.

1399
01:02:08.219 --> 01:02:09.179
You're doing terlo.

1400
01:02:09.239 --> 01:02:10.980
Well, that's why I was going to say, well, that's why they have

1401
01:02:10.980 --> 01:02:11.579
birds on the head.

1402
01:02:11.639 --> 01:02:15.179
And they have birds on the heads. yeah is better because the Mara

1403
01:02:15.179 --> 01:02:18.179
is ripe for more exploration, as not merely bringing something

1404
01:02:18.179 --> 01:02:19.679
back for the sake of it.

1405
01:02:19.800 --> 01:02:21.059
Do we have anything more?

1406
01:02:21.119 --> 01:02:21.599
No.