WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-05-03 at 08:41:25

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to 500 year diary.

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The only Doctor Who podcast with little resistance to immersion in

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liquids.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm James.

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Hi, Mark.

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And I'm Simon.

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It's the 22nd of February, 1975.

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It's been just over a year since Kevin Lindsay removed his

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Santaran helmet, and tonight the 11000000 people who've tuned in.

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We'll get to see him do it again.

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But can a comic foil for the dog to thrive in this year's new

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darker version of the show?

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Let's find out as we discuss the Santarin experiment.

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So, we are on location in, where are we?

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Dartmoor, is it?

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I think it is Dartmore.

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It's very bleak and very cold.

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Do you think it's cold?

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It looks freezing.

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And wet.

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And wet.

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And we're on videotape.

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How do you feel about that?

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Very strange.

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I mean, we all kind of grew up in an era where outside things

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looked like they were on film and inside things looked like they

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were on videotape because we consumed so much BBC material.

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I don't know what I thought back in the day.

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Did I think it looked different or not?

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Did anyone else when they were a kid?

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the house always looks so... the way the inside of the house looks

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in focus on the outside. has a bit of a shake to it, you know?

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It's not the 1st story that shot entirely on videotape because

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robot is shot entirely on videotape.

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Yeah, that was so that they could do a better job than they'd done

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with the dinosaurs the previous year of getting the giant robot

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CSO'd against the background.

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They thought that it would be better if it was videotape on video

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tape rather than kind of videotape monsters hovering uncertainly

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against a sort of film background.

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But I mean, doing it OB in this way, in this era, as I understand

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it would have been a massive undertaking because this is the way

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they filmed, you know, sports things.

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I mean, they'd have massive. have to be trucks and huge vans and

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things, whereas film was so much easier because you just have a

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tripod and a film camera and a sound recorder.

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Is that right?

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My understanding is that there is a new set of cameras involved.

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So there is a technological innovation.

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And I think too, that it's possible that that enables us to have

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the two-part story as well.

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Well, the two-part story effectively is the location block of the

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what would have been a six-part arc in space.

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Yes, yeah. is essentially what it is.

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It's kind of like what JNT later does in seasons 24 through 26.

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Yeah We'll talk about that, I think, probably later on. due

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course.

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Yeah, yeah.

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I mean, the upside of it is that we're outside for a change, and I

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am a big fan of that, I think, I think Doctor Who is eventually

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better out of the studio and just generally better out of the

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studio.

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But unlike a lot of the other out of the studio things, whether

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they're on film or video.

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There are very, very few props here.

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You've got, okay, you've got the Centaurin ship.

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You've got the strange, stupid, crappy robot thing.

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You've got the Gaztax costumes and the sphere and the balls.

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But other than that, they're not casting a great deal of stuff.

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They're not building sets.

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I mean, the Santaran sphere thing is probably the most elaborate

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thing, isn't it?

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Yeah, and they had that lying around, presumably.

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I mean, they brought it by truck and sort of stuck it up on those

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put together again because it'll be crumpled.

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I think the advantage of that being outside is if you're a kid in

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the playground the next day, you can.

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It's the sort of games that you would play with your mates would

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be that sort of running around and hiding behind rocks and, you

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know, kind of capturing each other and that kind of thing.

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So there's a lot there with, like you say, without a lot of props

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or special effects, you could just recreate as a kid.

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And they also use the location as a danger as well.

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So both Harry and the doctor falling down that pit, or crevasse or

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whatever it is, it's used as part of the story.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, the danger isn't just the Santaran.

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It's the location as well.

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It's kind of like a bit of an indoor boy as well.

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You think, well, yeah, that's like, that's a good reason not to go

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outside.

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And then there's all the background story stuff that you know as

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well that Tom Baker cracked his collarbone while he was making it

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and everyone was like really miserable and cold and uncomfortable

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throughout the whole thing as well.

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So it creates an inhospitable environment, I think, as well as the

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alien danger.

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I think too, just the sort of giant vistas and things.

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You know, it's a little bit like Jody's 1st series when they go to

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South Africa and all of a sudden you can see off into the distance

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for a change.

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And it's not something the Doctor Who gets to do very much.

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And here I think it is really effective.

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It is actually much different from anything else that we've ever

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seen.

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Yeah, it's not a quarry.

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It's not a lush green field, sort of forest.

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I mean, maybe the people who made time flight could have learnt

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something from this.

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Yeah, no, it is.

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I mean, it is sort of surprising.

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I have a feeling, though, that although, you know, we've got a pit

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to fall down and stuff like that.

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Part of the problem with the production is that it's a little bit

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light on actual incident.

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There's a lot of falling into holes and sort of clambering out of

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holes.

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There's kind of wandering from place to place and running into

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people.

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It is an example of one of those stories where, and for reasons

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which I might touch on later, because it didn't always get

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repeated in Australia with the regular repeat run.

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But it's not just that I often feel even with this time having

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watched it.

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I sort of, 5 minutes afterwards, I kind of struggle to explain

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what I've just watched in terms of what's happened.

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It's not a great deal.

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It's just a bit of stuff.

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And maybe that's okay.

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Maybe for 2 weeks we can we can tolerate that.

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There's certainly a lot of incident in all of the rest of the

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stories this season.

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But there is a very definite change of pace, isn't there?

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There's a lot of kind of wandering around the location which is

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watchable in a way that just wandering around television centre

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one.

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Or an abandoned hospital.

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Yes, your patient time.

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And so as usual, we have an end of part one monster reveal, and

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that's something that we've already been revealed in the opening

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credits.

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Yes.

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Well, yes.

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No, that's true.

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Bad me, HS insin, yeah.

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Yeah, yeah.

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See also, you know, death to the Daleks and everything since

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then.

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Genesis of the Daleks.

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Revenge of the Cyberman.

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Yeah, yeah.

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They're yet to come, admittedly, but yes, they have been

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revealed.

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I wonder how much recognition the Santarian name would have had at

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this point, though, because they're not in the title of the Time

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Warrior.

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And, you know, would people remember the name links more?

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I mean, obviously we can't, we can't know at that point.

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But I wonder how many people would recognise the face, but not the

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name of the Sun Tyrans, having seen them a year earlier?

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I think that the monster revealed at the end of the episode is

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like a tradition for a reason.

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And you've only got one cliffhanger.

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And so I guess that's why you do it here.

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We talked about the monster reveal in Dalek Invasion of Earth

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which obviously doesn't have Daleks in the title, despite what it

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says on our Blu-ray disc. is kind of revealed by the radio Times

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cover, though.

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Yes, I think so. which I believe was that week.

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You were there waiting for the Daleks to appear.

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And he had to wait till the very end.

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They made you watch the whole thing.

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But what they did do was introduce a crappy secondary monster. to

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kind of while away the time before they turn.

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Oh, talking about the Roman.

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Well, both.

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But also, no, not the slither, because this is later on.

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I'm talking about the rover man.

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Oh, sorry.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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But we do the same thing in Earthshock.

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Obviously, we have the secondary...

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I pretend Cyberman, yes.

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Yeah, exactly.

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We have the sort of secondary alien and then the big reveal at the

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end of part one.

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It's not that successful, is it?

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The reveal or the crappy...

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No, it's a bit, it's a bit wobbly and it's a bit crappy, but

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having said that, I think the direction is such that it hides it

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as best it can.

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And so I think, you know, it's okay.

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There are far worse sins, for goodness sake.

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No, no, no, that's fair.

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There's some directors that would have shown the base of it and

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shown it moving along and they always avoid that.

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They always have some foliage or something, don't they, covering

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the base of it.

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So it could be flying for all we know, I suppose, which would be

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quite cool.

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I mean, they'd have to put something in the dialogue to say

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there's a flying robot move around, but it's at least they make

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that effort to not show you that it's run along on wheels.

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And it is like, I think they probably want to get away from that

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it being a man in a costume as well.

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And it does, you know, it does get away from that.

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And I think the ropes are the kind of the metallic kind of

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manacles, whatever that come out of it.

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They do look pretty good and they use that sports action replay

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thing, didn't they, to create that effect.

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I think when the robot is dragging like 3 men along, you can sort

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of, and they're acting in such a way that they're being compelled

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along.

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I think that does work pretty well, actually, that they're selling

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it to some extent.

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How did it get around?

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I mean, presumably there aren't sort of cracks for it.

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They did put tracks down.

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Right, right.

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They'd have to take on that heather.

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That's why I shot from blow.

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Is it one of those things that they built this wonderful thing

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took it on location and then realised that it couldn't move more

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than a few centimetres?

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So it also has the distinction of being the source of the sound

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that I use on 500-year diary and now Flight through Entirety to

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bleep any swear words that turn up.

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Then there's a problem with the story.

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Isn't there?

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Because we don't see Stire until halfway through the thing.

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I mean, if it was in the modern era, the star would be revealed

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you know, just before the opening credits of a modern episode.

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And I don't want to get on my hobby horse now about how long

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Doctor Who Story should be in the 21st century.

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But I think this is yet another example, and in total, there are

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one, two, three, four, five, 6 of them, that I think demonstrate

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that classic Doctor Who, I think, is rarely successful as a two

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passer, because the whole way stories are built in the classic era

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means that whether it's the monster reveal at the end of part one

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or whether it's just the pace that things can happen and the fact

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that, you know, you need to have a certain pattern because you can

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only afford so many sets and so many casts and so on and so on.

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You just end up with a somewhat unsatisfying story.

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And, you know, I like the Awakening and I like Kings Demons and I

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even like Black Orchid, Brendan.

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But, but, I mean, and the rescue does its thing because it's kind

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of just introducing Vicky and the episodes run into each other so

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extortive, okay, and age of destruction.

250
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But fundamentally, you just don't get satisfied with the story

251
00:11:59.399 --> 00:12:01.620
because not enough can possibly happen.

252
00:12:01.620 --> 00:12:08.100
In fact, I think maybe the rescue is the best one because it has a

253
00:12:08.100 --> 00:12:09.840
very limited remit.

254
00:12:09.899 --> 00:12:10.919
It is just there.

255
00:12:10.980 --> 00:12:13.500
It's not a full-on adventure or anything like that.

256
00:12:13.559 --> 00:12:15.779
It's just there to introduce Vicky.

257
00:12:15.840 --> 00:12:18.480
And so it knows exactly how much to put in.

258
00:12:18.539 --> 00:12:23.220
The others tend to have an episode one and then an episode 4 and

259
00:12:23.220 --> 00:12:25.500
then we're done and that's part of the problem.

260
00:12:25.559 --> 00:12:29.039
Well, I, maybe, I worry that they have an episode one and an

261
00:12:29.039 --> 00:12:33.360
episode two, and just as they're about to get interesting, it

262
00:12:33.360 --> 00:12:33.899
stops.

263
00:12:33.960 --> 00:12:36.120
I mean, I won't belabour the point.

264
00:12:36.179 --> 00:12:39.960
And I know, Nathan, you're not a fan of the expression of if only

265
00:12:39.960 --> 00:12:42.000
it was longer, it'd be so much better.

266
00:12:42.059 --> 00:12:45.539
But if I can, if I can observe, and I know we're not talking about

267
00:12:45.539 --> 00:12:47.700
these stories now, and I don't, I don't know what you do to some

268
00:12:47.700 --> 00:12:51.179
entire experiment per se, but in the case of, say, um, kings

269
00:12:51.179 --> 00:12:53.940
demons, imagine what kings demons could be like if you have

270
00:12:53.940 --> 00:12:55.440
episode one basically as it is.

271
00:12:55.500 --> 00:12:59.340
And then when comedians revealed in episode two, then the master

272
00:12:59.340 --> 00:13:01.799
at the sort of the 3 quarter market, that episode whisks comedian

273
00:13:01.799 --> 00:13:03.779
off, and they head to London, and everyone has to go to London

274
00:13:03.779 --> 00:13:06.299
where we get to meet the real King John, and there's a kind of a

275
00:13:06.299 --> 00:13:09.539
doppelganger thing, and it all, you know, with comedian.

276
00:13:09.600 --> 00:13:12.000
But the point is, you would get to the end of the story and even

277
00:13:12.000 --> 00:13:14.100
if at the end of a four-part king's damage, you'd think, well, that

278
00:13:14.100 --> 00:13:14.940
was pretty terrible.

279
00:13:15.000 --> 00:13:18.179
I think it would make a more meaningful Doctor Who story.

280
00:13:18.240 --> 00:13:19.620
And I think that's what happens here.

281
00:13:19.679 --> 00:13:20.879
The rescue...

282
00:13:21.000 --> 00:13:23.279
One of the things about the King's Demons is, though, it's over

283
00:13:23.279 --> 00:13:24.240
quite quickly, right?

284
00:13:24.360 --> 00:13:25.559
Yes, yes.

285
00:13:25.620 --> 00:13:26.700
That's strong point.

286
00:13:26.759 --> 00:13:28.799
No, there's much I like about things.

287
00:13:28.860 --> 00:13:31.799
My point is, you need more stuff to happen.

288
00:13:31.860 --> 00:13:34.740
You need more escape recapture escape recapture in a classic story

289
00:13:34.740 --> 00:13:37.500
for it to feel like you've actually had an adventure.

290
00:13:37.620 --> 00:13:41.820
I think it's why I kind of have the opinion that 3 is the perfect

291
00:13:41.820 --> 00:13:44.879
length, in fact, because it doesn't sort of wear me out.

292
00:13:44.940 --> 00:13:47.039
We don't have to lock the doctor up for a whole episode.

293
00:13:47.100 --> 00:13:50.159
You know, there's we have enough... we'll talk about that to be

294
00:13:50.159 --> 00:13:50.639
getting on with.

295
00:13:53.879 --> 00:13:55.259
Yeah.

296
00:13:55.320 --> 00:13:57.840
And I mean, it's the same problem with black orchid, isn't it?

297
00:13:57.899 --> 00:14:02.100
You get the actual murder happen halfway through the whodunit. you

298
00:14:02.100 --> 00:14:04.620
know, and then everything else is sort of really kind of horribly

299
00:14:04.620 --> 00:14:05.100
rushed.

300
00:14:05.220 --> 00:14:09.539
Here, I think they're not tempted to try and cram too much in.

301
00:14:09.659 --> 00:14:10.919
That's not the problem.

302
00:14:10.980 --> 00:14:14.759
There might, in fact, be not quite enough to fill the 2nd

303
00:14:14.759 --> 00:14:15.000
episode.

304
00:14:15.059 --> 00:14:16.200
Well, I think it's that problem.

305
00:14:16.259 --> 00:14:19.500
I mean, you're restricted by the fact that you're all in location

306
00:14:19.500 --> 00:14:20.820
and this specific location.

307
00:14:20.879 --> 00:14:24.360
You've got a certain set of characters.

308
00:14:24.419 --> 00:14:25.919
I mean, what else can you possibly do?

309
00:14:25.980 --> 00:14:29.519
The only way this story is expanded into more episodes is if they

310
00:14:29.519 --> 00:14:32.580
then go somewhere else, like, for instance, go back to Nerva

311
00:14:32.580 --> 00:14:36.840
Beacon, spend more time torturing Sarah Jane.

312
00:14:36.899 --> 00:14:39.899
It's much better, Sarah Jane torture later.

313
00:14:41.639 --> 00:14:45.720
As it is, the doctor gets knocked out twice in the 1st episode

314
00:14:45.720 --> 00:14:46.200
doesn't it?

315
00:14:46.259 --> 00:14:48.360
That's quite a lot in 25 minutes.

316
00:15:04.080 --> 00:15:07.139
So, I'm a massive fan of The Time Warrior.

317
00:15:07.200 --> 00:15:10.799
And I wasn't as a kid, but I really, really like it.

318
00:15:10.860 --> 00:15:12.299
It's Bob Holmes, obviously.

319
00:15:12.360 --> 00:15:16.559
I think maybe it was Sandra who 1st pointed out that the doctor

320
00:15:16.559 --> 00:15:22.080
faces another alien scientific advisor to a military

321
00:15:22.080 --> 00:15:22.860
organisation.

322
00:15:22.980 --> 00:15:28.080
And so the great thing about links is that he's a bit like the

323
00:15:28.080 --> 00:15:31.620
doctor, you know, he's helping out this group of people whom he

324
00:15:31.620 --> 00:15:34.320
regards as more primitive than he.

325
00:15:34.379 --> 00:15:38.039
And and links is funny.

326
00:15:38.100 --> 00:15:39.480
That script is funny.

327
00:15:39.539 --> 00:15:43.259
David Dacre is funny and it links is kind of hilarious.

328
00:15:43.320 --> 00:15:48.000
Even the helmet reveal at the end of episode one, where it's

329
00:15:48.000 --> 00:15:51.059
revealed that he's got a big round helmet and there's a big round

330
00:15:51.059 --> 00:15:53.820
hair under it, like it's always a tongue.

331
00:15:55.200 --> 00:15:58.200
Like all of that's actually properly funny.

332
00:15:58.259 --> 00:15:59.700
And then the whole thing is silly.

333
00:15:59.759 --> 00:16:02.820
You know, we're making stink bombs and all of that.

334
00:16:02.879 --> 00:16:04.919
It's very light and very funny.

335
00:16:04.980 --> 00:16:06.659
We make fun of Sarah, all of that.

336
00:16:06.720 --> 00:16:07.980
Like, I think it's a really great story.

337
00:16:08.039 --> 00:16:08.879
It's light.

338
00:16:08.940 --> 00:16:10.740
I wouldn't say funny. say it's witty.

339
00:16:10.799 --> 00:16:14.039
It treats itself seriously even though there are amusing things

340
00:16:14.039 --> 00:16:14.340
going on.

341
00:16:14.460 --> 00:16:15.419
It's charming.

342
00:16:15.480 --> 00:16:16.200
It's charming.

343
00:16:16.259 --> 00:16:17.100
It's more than charming.

344
00:16:17.159 --> 00:16:18.840
I think it's great It's got something for everybody.

345
00:16:18.899 --> 00:16:23.519
I do think I think homes, because famously homes didn't want to

346
00:16:23.519 --> 00:16:24.720
write something said in the past.

347
00:16:24.779 --> 00:16:25.440
Oh, really?

348
00:16:25.500 --> 00:16:29.159
And so he just made absolutely no attempt to find out when it

349
00:16:29.159 --> 00:16:30.000
might be set.

350
00:16:30.600 --> 00:16:33.360
You know, anything about that.

351
00:16:33.419 --> 00:16:35.700
It's like it's set in mediaeval land.

352
00:16:35.759 --> 00:16:37.679
Yeah, you know, it's Merry Island.

353
00:16:38.279 --> 00:16:39.299
See, Sarah Jane's right.

354
00:16:39.360 --> 00:16:39.960
Yeah.

355
00:16:40.019 --> 00:16:43.139
It's a big, you know, Renaissance fair kind of thing.

356
00:16:43.200 --> 00:16:44.159
Yeah, yeah.

357
00:16:44.279 --> 00:16:48.899
Yeah, so like that's really fun. and then suddenly here we are.

358
00:16:48.960 --> 00:16:52.080
And this is really... very dry.

359
00:16:52.139 --> 00:16:53.639
Yeah, very dry.

360
00:16:53.759 --> 00:16:56.100
I love the time worry as well.

361
00:16:56.159 --> 00:16:59.279
And I saw it a long time before the Santarian experiment, I think

362
00:16:59.279 --> 00:17:00.899
and it was, you know, a kid.

363
00:17:00.960 --> 00:17:02.700
What, do you watch things over and over again?

364
00:17:02.759 --> 00:17:06.720
So that that kind of set, I think the Santarans, for me, in my

365
00:17:06.720 --> 00:17:07.019
mind.

366
00:17:07.079 --> 00:17:10.680
And like you say, it is hilarious and the whole idea that Robert

367
00:17:10.680 --> 00:17:13.799
Holmes had, or wouldn't it be funnier for, like you say, an alien

368
00:17:13.799 --> 00:17:16.859
lifted his helmet off and his head was exactly the same shape.

369
00:17:16.920 --> 00:17:18.539
Links is hilarious.

370
00:17:18.599 --> 00:17:22.259
When he says to iron grown, oh, you've got a binary reproduction

371
00:17:22.259 --> 00:17:24.059
system, it's very inefficient, you should change it.

372
00:17:24.119 --> 00:17:26.339
That old stuff is really, really funny.

373
00:17:26.400 --> 00:17:31.140
And I think this is why I don't really get the criticisms in the

374
00:17:31.140 --> 00:17:33.420
modern era that sometimes when people say, oh, they've just been

375
00:17:33.420 --> 00:17:36.000
turned into a joke, that, you know, they're not scary anymore

376
00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:38.519
they're not funny, I think, but their origins were, that they were

377
00:17:38.519 --> 00:17:43.259
they were exaggerated military people to the point of, of, of

378
00:17:43.259 --> 00:17:43.980
comicness.

379
00:17:44.039 --> 00:17:46.259
But I think maybe the people that were more familiar with the same

380
00:17:46.259 --> 00:17:49.200
town experiment who were around that age think, no, they're very

381
00:17:49.200 --> 00:17:52.619
serious, scary, they're torturers and everything else, and they

382
00:17:52.619 --> 00:17:53.640
want that model more.

383
00:17:53.700 --> 00:17:54.839
And it's interesting.

384
00:17:54.900 --> 00:17:58.619
The behind the scenes, this, you talk about how Robert Holmes gave

385
00:17:58.619 --> 00:18:02.940
loads of information to Baker and Martin about the Centaurans and

386
00:18:02.940 --> 00:18:05.460
talked all about the history and the culture and how they

387
00:18:05.460 --> 00:18:07.680
reproduce and everything, but the thing that he doesn't seem to

388
00:18:07.680 --> 00:18:11.460
have mentioned to them is, oh, and they are hilarious as well.

389
00:18:11.519 --> 00:18:15.180
You know, they, uh, they say stupid things and and and it's really

390
00:18:15.180 --> 00:18:15.420
funny.

391
00:18:15.480 --> 00:18:18.599
So that's the big thing that's lost, I think.

392
00:18:18.660 --> 00:18:19.859
I'm not sure.

393
00:18:19.920 --> 00:18:22.319
Like, links isn't stupid, though, is he?

394
00:18:22.380 --> 00:18:25.140
I mean, I guess, you know, there's that hilarious moment where he

395
00:18:25.140 --> 00:18:28.200
plants the flag in mediaeval England and it's like a stupid big

396
00:18:28.200 --> 00:18:31.440
flag, the extra flags come out.

397
00:18:31.500 --> 00:18:35.400
Like, so yes, there is, you know, there is that sort of comic

398
00:18:35.400 --> 00:18:36.420
stuff at his expense.

399
00:18:36.480 --> 00:18:38.400
But mostly he's fairly straightforward.

400
00:18:38.460 --> 00:18:43.019
We do get much sillier, Sontarin's stike and vaal.

401
00:18:43.079 --> 00:18:46.079
The next time that they're written by Bob Holmes.

402
00:18:46.140 --> 00:18:47.880
They're preposterous.

403
00:18:48.000 --> 00:18:49.619
They're different preposterous.

404
00:18:49.680 --> 00:18:54.000
Look, I think that the Stike and Vall ones are still, they can't

405
00:18:54.000 --> 00:18:57.119
look, it's like the, it's like the classic Disney thing where

406
00:18:57.119 --> 00:19:01.019
Disney films are, the good, the best Disney films are made so that

407
00:19:01.019 --> 00:19:04.619
the kids laugh and are frightened by the villains and all that

408
00:19:04.619 --> 00:19:05.039
sort of stuff.

409
00:19:05.099 --> 00:19:08.460
But the parents have all of these jokes throughout that they to

410
00:19:08.460 --> 00:19:08.940
experience.

411
00:19:09.000 --> 00:19:12.000
And I think what Robert Holmes does in the time war and in the 2

412
00:19:12.000 --> 00:19:13.200
doctors is exactly the same thing.

413
00:19:13.259 --> 00:19:15.539
The kids are, oh, isn't that scariest on Tara.

414
00:19:15.599 --> 00:19:18.059
Despite the stupid flag thing and all this stuff, he talks about

415
00:19:18.059 --> 00:19:20.279
reproductive genders and that sort of stuff.

416
00:19:20.339 --> 00:19:21.599
It was Sarah Jane's breast.

417
00:19:21.660 --> 00:19:22.259
Exactly.

418
00:19:22.319 --> 00:19:22.859
Exactly.

419
00:19:22.920 --> 00:19:26.640
Whereas that goes completely over the head of kids who find him a

420
00:19:26.640 --> 00:19:29.819
frightening, vile looking monster, whereas the parents who are

421
00:19:29.819 --> 00:19:32.039
watching with the chick kid goes, my God, this is hilarious.

422
00:19:32.099 --> 00:19:34.559
Yeah, and not to mention the field marshal's breasts as well.

423
00:19:36.480 --> 00:19:39.720
Most of the best Doctor Who does that Disney thing.

424
00:19:41.039 --> 00:19:44.339
But for that to work, it needs to be played straight, even though

425
00:19:44.339 --> 00:19:44.880
it's funny.

426
00:19:44.940 --> 00:19:45.660
Do you know what I mean?

427
00:19:45.720 --> 00:19:49.200
And that's why Time Warrior, and for me, 2 doctors work very, very

428
00:19:49.200 --> 00:19:53.160
well with that sort of underlying humour, even though darkly

429
00:19:53.160 --> 00:19:53.519
comics.

430
00:19:53.579 --> 00:19:54.059
Exactly.

431
00:19:54.119 --> 00:19:54.539
Yeah.

432
00:19:54.599 --> 00:19:59.519
So what do we think about the tone of this one then?

433
00:19:59.819 --> 00:20:02.940
It is pretty bleak to match the weather.

434
00:20:03.000 --> 00:20:05.160
I think it's actually too bleak.

435
00:20:05.220 --> 00:20:08.460
It's very dry, and you don't get the lightness that you do get in

436
00:20:08.460 --> 00:20:12.059
arc in space, and certainly your range of the sidemen, and Genesis

437
00:20:12.059 --> 00:20:14.339
even, there are lighter touches with the doctor.

438
00:20:14.400 --> 00:20:16.200
I think whilst the doctor has some funny moments.

439
00:20:16.259 --> 00:20:18.240
The whole thing just feels much more depressing.

440
00:20:18.299 --> 00:20:21.059
See, I thought you were just talking about his makeup.

441
00:20:21.119 --> 00:20:22.500
It's very dry.

442
00:20:22.559 --> 00:20:24.000
Toms.

443
00:20:24.059 --> 00:20:24.599
No.

444
00:20:24.599 --> 00:20:26.099
No star.

445
00:20:26.220 --> 00:20:28.500
The mask is just...

446
00:20:28.500 --> 00:20:29.640
Looks like papier mache.

447
00:20:29.700 --> 00:20:32.400
So let's talk about the mask.

448
00:20:32.460 --> 00:20:34.859
Kevin Lindsay had panic attacks, I think.

449
00:20:34.920 --> 00:20:35.819
Is that right?

450
00:20:35.880 --> 00:20:39.900
In the mask or at least found it really, really constricting and

451
00:20:39.900 --> 00:20:41.279
unpleasant to wear.

452
00:20:41.460 --> 00:20:44.700
And so they make a lighter mask.

453
00:20:44.819 --> 00:20:47.220
Making it completely different to virtually every other mask that

454
00:20:47.220 --> 00:20:49.019
Doctor Who actors have been told.

455
00:20:49.079 --> 00:20:49.920
That's right.

456
00:20:49.980 --> 00:20:50.759
That's right.

457
00:20:50.819 --> 00:20:53.339
Don't the only sidemen get screwed into the game?

458
00:20:53.400 --> 00:20:56.700
I think they're even being screwed in in the 1980s, actually.

459
00:20:56.759 --> 00:20:59.579
So there's that.

460
00:20:59.640 --> 00:21:01.019
And it's clearly not.

461
00:21:01.740 --> 00:21:05.279
We talked, we talked in the moon base about whether the cyberman

462
00:21:05.279 --> 00:21:08.400
had been redesigned or not, or whether we were supposed to

463
00:21:08.400 --> 00:21:11.759
understand that they always looked like they did in the moon base

464
00:21:11.759 --> 00:21:15.539
and we're going to forget how they looked in the 10th planet.

465
00:21:15.599 --> 00:21:19.799
Here, we're encouraged to feel the same way because Sarah just

466
00:21:19.799 --> 00:21:24.660
assumes that that's links and says in dialogue that they look

467
00:21:24.660 --> 00:21:29.400
identical and Styer confirms that, yes, you know, we're alike, but

468
00:21:29.400 --> 00:21:31.799
not the same, we are identical, we're clones.

469
00:21:31.859 --> 00:21:34.559
And the mask is.

470
00:21:36.180 --> 00:21:38.640
Remember that Edmund Warwick looked exactly like, you know, the

471
00:21:38.640 --> 00:21:42.000
robot doctor looked exactly like the doctor in the chase.

472
00:21:42.059 --> 00:21:45.599
It kind of, I mean, 10th planet and Moonbase is a little bit

473
00:21:45.599 --> 00:21:45.900
different.

474
00:21:45.960 --> 00:21:46.680
And yes, I agree.

475
00:21:46.740 --> 00:21:49.079
We were just supposed to think that this is what the Sidemen of

476
00:21:49.079 --> 00:21:50.880
Warriors looked like, and I think that's the way the Sidemen have

477
00:21:50.880 --> 00:21:51.599
always been all the way through.

478
00:21:51.660 --> 00:21:53.519
Polly recognises them, of course.

479
00:21:53.579 --> 00:21:54.420
Exactly, exactly.

480
00:21:54.480 --> 00:21:56.940
But you've changed your opinion. any of that.

481
00:21:57.000 --> 00:22:01.019
And in fact, that's the kind of kind of television that I sort of

482
00:22:01.019 --> 00:22:01.440
prefer.

483
00:22:01.440 --> 00:22:04.740
Like in the modern era, because of, you know, they expect people

484
00:22:04.740 --> 00:22:07.259
to have seen them again or in different orders or whatever, they

485
00:22:07.259 --> 00:22:09.420
have to come up with some kind of in universe reason as to why

486
00:22:09.420 --> 00:22:09.779
they look different.

487
00:22:09.839 --> 00:22:13.019
In fact, it's Moffat that does that more than Russell.

488
00:22:13.079 --> 00:22:16.380
So Russell sets a look for the monsters and just goes with it.

489
00:22:16.500 --> 00:22:18.900
Takes the approach that they've always looked like that.

490
00:22:18.960 --> 00:22:21.960
Whereas Moffatt minds the history of the show.

491
00:22:22.019 --> 00:22:23.759
I'm not just talking about Doctor Who.

492
00:22:23.819 --> 00:22:25.680
I'm talking about like everything like, I mean, one of my

493
00:22:25.680 --> 00:22:29.400
favourite lines in whichever Star Trek episode it was where...

494
00:22:29.519 --> 00:22:30.839
Well, where they show the old Klingons.

495
00:22:30.839 --> 00:22:31.559
Yeah, yeah.

496
00:22:31.559 --> 00:22:33.359
Golf just says we don't like to talk about that.

497
00:22:33.420 --> 00:22:36.299
Because Star Trek is one of those things that did take that kind

498
00:22:36.299 --> 00:22:38.940
of thing very seriously in terms of this is the way it looks.

499
00:22:39.000 --> 00:22:42.000
You know, how, you know, it's practically that style on this thing

500
00:22:42.000 --> 00:22:45.599
of they'd have to have retouch all the old photos. consistent.

501
00:22:45.660 --> 00:22:48.599
Anyway, point being though, it doesn't matter how different the

502
00:22:48.599 --> 00:22:49.920
mask looks within reason.

503
00:22:49.980 --> 00:22:52.319
It's supposed to look the same, so it looks the same.

504
00:22:52.380 --> 00:22:52.920
Okay?

505
00:22:52.980 --> 00:22:55.259
We just, we'll all believe it if we say it often enough.

506
00:22:55.319 --> 00:22:57.119
And that's what you would have done as a child.

507
00:22:57.180 --> 00:22:58.019
You haven't seen it.

508
00:22:58.079 --> 00:23:00.660
I didn't know where the time war was repeated in the UK, but even

509
00:23:00.660 --> 00:23:04.200
here, if you're watching, we're watching a kind of a run of

510
00:23:04.200 --> 00:23:06.720
repeats stripped 4 nights away, it's still a couple of months

511
00:23:06.720 --> 00:23:08.579
between 3 months between the 2 stories.

512
00:23:09.480 --> 00:23:12.480
And, you know, it's only in the discussion about this story and

513
00:23:12.480 --> 00:23:15.059
now that we're talking about how different the mask is, that's

514
00:23:15.059 --> 00:23:17.339
made me realise how different the mask is, because I'd never

515
00:23:17.339 --> 00:23:18.000
really thought about it.

516
00:23:18.059 --> 00:23:21.359
So he is wearing the same outfit, literally the same outfit, is

517
00:23:21.359 --> 00:23:21.599
it?

518
00:23:21.660 --> 00:23:22.019
Oh, is it?

519
00:23:22.019 --> 00:23:24.960
And Sarah could just be racist and think they all look the same.

520
00:23:25.019 --> 00:23:25.380
Exactly.

521
00:23:25.380 --> 00:23:27.960
That's correct for the era.

522
00:23:28.319 --> 00:23:33.720
So there are problems with there's problems with the original mask

523
00:23:33.720 --> 00:23:36.960
apart from how uncomfortable it was to wear.

524
00:23:37.079 --> 00:23:42.359
And one problem is that you have rubber over Lindsay's top lip

525
00:23:42.359 --> 00:23:45.599
which is sometimes kind of painfully apparent.

526
00:23:45.660 --> 00:23:48.839
And so he has difficulty delivering his dialogue.

527
00:23:48.900 --> 00:23:52.680
And you've got the thing where his lower lip is exposed. not

528
00:23:52.680 --> 00:23:56.220
covered in the latex mask and it's got the hair on it as well.

529
00:23:56.279 --> 00:24:01.440
But the great thing about that mask is that it is slimy or

530
00:24:01.440 --> 00:24:02.400
sweaty.

531
00:24:02.460 --> 00:24:03.720
But do you know what I mean?

532
00:24:03.779 --> 00:24:07.619
It glistens slightly and so it looks more like flesh than what we

533
00:24:07.619 --> 00:24:07.980
get here.

534
00:24:08.039 --> 00:24:10.200
It's maybe just been spritzed before each tape.

535
00:24:10.259 --> 00:24:11.819
Yes, I think that that's what's happening.

536
00:24:11.880 --> 00:24:15.539
And so it looks a little bit more kind of organic and real.

537
00:24:15.599 --> 00:24:20.220
This one has the same sort of thing, which is he seems to have

538
00:24:20.220 --> 00:24:22.140
sort of interior and exterior lips.

539
00:24:22.200 --> 00:24:27.240
So the mask has lips and he has lips and his lips makes the other

540
00:24:27.240 --> 00:24:29.880
lips move, but then...

541
00:24:29.940 --> 00:24:30.660
Do you know what I mean?

542
00:24:30.720 --> 00:24:32.279
Like, it's much better.

543
00:24:32.339 --> 00:24:34.140
It's significantly worse.

544
00:24:34.619 --> 00:24:37.559
The same problem occurs in the 2 doctors with Styke and V.

545
00:24:37.740 --> 00:24:43.019
But also, um, in the visitation with the Terreleptils, they have

546
00:24:43.019 --> 00:24:43.859
the same problem as well.

547
00:24:43.859 --> 00:24:46.559
With the sort of flapping out, flappy mouth.

548
00:24:46.619 --> 00:24:47.339
Yeah, yeah.

549
00:24:47.400 --> 00:24:50.039
Yeah, it's just evidently stuck onto somebody's chest.

550
00:24:50.099 --> 00:24:50.519
His chin.

551
00:24:50.579 --> 00:24:51.240
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

552
00:24:51.299 --> 00:24:51.599
Yeah.

553
00:24:51.660 --> 00:24:53.099
I mean, I think that looks okay.

554
00:24:53.160 --> 00:24:55.799
I think the more it looks like a person's lips.

555
00:24:55.859 --> 00:24:56.460
Do you know what I mean?

556
00:24:56.519 --> 00:24:57.779
Because it's a big lizard head.

557
00:24:57.779 --> 00:25:00.480
We can kind of cope with that with the tarot lamp tools.

558
00:25:00.539 --> 00:25:02.460
And certainly Styke and Varl have the same problem.

559
00:25:02.519 --> 00:25:06.420
And I think that the problem is really only solved in the new

560
00:25:06.420 --> 00:25:10.920
series when they come back because you have the latex that can

561
00:25:10.920 --> 00:25:16.259
stick very closely onto the actor's skin because here and like the

562
00:25:16.259 --> 00:25:19.559
Santarians generally have problems around the eyes as well.

563
00:25:19.619 --> 00:25:23.220
You know, like the rubber, like is not really great.

564
00:25:23.279 --> 00:25:28.140
And remember that when they do Davros in the next story, he

565
00:25:28.140 --> 00:25:32.640
doesn't have eyes, so the problem's solved and they do that thing

566
00:25:32.640 --> 00:25:36.599
where they let the contours of his sort of chin define the part of

567
00:25:36.599 --> 00:25:38.880
the makeup that's not hidden by the mask.

568
00:25:38.940 --> 00:25:44.099
And in fact, Davros is, I think, as a kind of monster makeup job

569
00:25:44.160 --> 00:25:48.180
kind of the, well, maybe the Draconians.

570
00:25:48.240 --> 00:25:49.380
Do you know what I mean?

571
00:25:49.440 --> 00:25:52.200
But, but allowing the mouth, you know, perch, you're saying the

572
00:25:52.200 --> 00:25:55.799
thing you see the actor's eyes and...

573
00:25:55.859 --> 00:25:56.279
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

574
00:25:56.339 --> 00:25:58.259
I mean, having just had the seeds of death last week.

575
00:25:58.319 --> 00:26:02.579
I mean, basically having a monster whose voice comes out at the

576
00:26:02.579 --> 00:26:04.799
same rate as its lips move is, I think, an achievement.

577
00:26:04.859 --> 00:26:06.960
Some of what we saw there.

578
00:26:08.700 --> 00:26:13.500
And you know, yeah, that thing of using the music, however, it's

579
00:26:13.500 --> 00:26:16.680
obscured by like a funky moustache or whatever else it is.

580
00:26:16.740 --> 00:26:19.380
I mean, even right up to the cryons in attack of the sidemen

581
00:26:19.380 --> 00:26:22.200
you've got the kind of the crystalline moustaches on those

582
00:26:22.200 --> 00:26:22.500
ladies.

583
00:26:22.500 --> 00:26:27.000
On those ladies hiding, hiding the break between the mask and the

584
00:26:27.000 --> 00:26:27.480
mouth.

585
00:26:27.539 --> 00:26:29.279
But you just sort of accept that, I think.

586
00:26:29.339 --> 00:26:30.359
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

587
00:26:30.420 --> 00:26:33.779
So that's why I think, you know, like the modern series manages

588
00:26:33.779 --> 00:26:34.259
to...

589
00:26:34.259 --> 00:26:37.980
Yeah, that's 40 years... 40 years of technology and budget

590
00:26:37.980 --> 00:26:38.579
improvement.

591
00:26:38.640 --> 00:26:39.119
Yes, exactly.

592
00:26:45.180 --> 00:26:48.599
So what do we think about the gal sex and they're mainly South

593
00:26:48.599 --> 00:26:49.380
African accents?

594
00:26:49.440 --> 00:26:52.559
I think, again, this is one of those Doctor Who stories where

595
00:26:52.559 --> 00:26:56.160
everyone's a man except for Liz, which is kind of tedious.

596
00:26:56.819 --> 00:27:00.599
And everyone kind of looks roughly the same.

597
00:27:00.660 --> 00:27:05.579
I'm astounded by how rough poor old Glyn Jones looks.

598
00:27:05.640 --> 00:27:09.059
He looks like he's in desperate need of good night's sleep.

599
00:27:09.119 --> 00:27:10.680
Hairbrush.

600
00:27:10.740 --> 00:27:13.380
Yeah, yeah, but they all need a good sort of hairbrush and stuff.

601
00:27:13.440 --> 00:27:17.099
I mean, there's something about that whole sort of setup, which I

602
00:27:17.099 --> 00:27:19.680
actually really like, and we'll get onto it because I think we

603
00:27:19.680 --> 00:27:21.839
might talk a little bit more broadly about the season.

604
00:27:21.900 --> 00:27:27.660
But we're in the same time period, we're just a little bit, you

605
00:27:27.660 --> 00:27:31.980
know, we're just a few 1000 miles away or 1000000s of miles away

606
00:27:31.980 --> 00:27:32.880
from where we were.

607
00:27:33.180 --> 00:27:35.519
Yeah, yeah, with virus.

608
00:27:35.579 --> 00:27:37.559
She's still up there waiting for us to sort of come back.

609
00:27:37.619 --> 00:27:42.900
And so hearing more about the earth and all of that, I think, is

610
00:27:42.900 --> 00:27:43.680
kind of interesting.

611
00:27:43.740 --> 00:27:47.640
And you remember she talked about some of the colonies being full

612
00:27:47.640 --> 00:27:49.140
of regressives or whatever.

613
00:27:49.200 --> 00:27:50.759
That's clearly these people.

614
00:27:51.720 --> 00:27:52.799
Well, obviously.

615
00:27:52.799 --> 00:27:55.319
They don't talk posh, you know, the way that Byron.

616
00:27:55.440 --> 00:27:55.920
No, I do.

617
00:27:55.980 --> 00:28:00.599
Hasn't gone to a real university. went to a polytechnic.

618
00:28:00.660 --> 00:28:01.440
Exactly.

619
00:28:01.500 --> 00:28:03.599
That helps with the contrast, I think, though.

620
00:28:03.660 --> 00:28:04.859
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

621
00:28:04.920 --> 00:28:05.220
Yeah, yeah.

622
00:28:05.279 --> 00:28:08.160
I mean, it's that thing that, remember, things are coded

623
00:28:08.160 --> 00:28:11.400
throughout this era, not just Doctor Who, just through everything

624
00:28:11.400 --> 00:28:14.640
in that different accents imply different things about you, whether

625
00:28:14.640 --> 00:28:18.240
you're educated or not, whether you're rich or not, or whether

626
00:28:18.240 --> 00:28:19.559
you're nice or not.

627
00:28:19.619 --> 00:28:24.180
And I don't know when does when do we start throwing sanctions on

628
00:28:24.180 --> 00:28:24.839
South Africa?

629
00:28:24.900 --> 00:28:29.279
Uh, is it, has it happened by 1975 or, is that yet to come?

630
00:28:29.339 --> 00:28:30.420
They'll have the 80s.

631
00:28:30.480 --> 00:28:32.700
I mean, it was being talked about, but it's a question of how

632
00:28:32.700 --> 00:28:33.180
aggressively.

633
00:28:33.240 --> 00:28:36.660
So it is nevertheless a good way to sort of imply that these

634
00:28:36.660 --> 00:28:41.579
people are, you know, not as sophisticated as the space station

635
00:28:41.579 --> 00:28:43.440
would just come from, where everything's, you know, gleaming white

636
00:28:43.440 --> 00:28:45.660
nice tunics and everything's colour coded on the lapels and so

637
00:28:45.660 --> 00:28:45.839
on.

638
00:28:45.900 --> 00:28:49.680
Well, in fact, they have a kind of beef about the people on nerva

639
00:28:49.680 --> 00:28:50.640
that they haven't helped.

640
00:28:50.700 --> 00:28:52.559
They've been lying there asleep doing nothing.

641
00:28:52.680 --> 00:28:56.579
We've been struggling and we've built an empire and they haven't

642
00:28:56.579 --> 00:28:57.059
done anything.

643
00:28:57.119 --> 00:29:01.200
And so there is a kind of, you know, almost class-like resentment

644
00:29:01.200 --> 00:29:02.519
there.

645
00:29:02.579 --> 00:29:06.000
So I guess giving them those accents is actually pretty good.

646
00:29:06.119 --> 00:29:10.440
And I think maybe they would have been reluctant to just give

647
00:29:10.440 --> 00:29:15.359
regional or working class accents to spacemen in Doctor Who in

648
00:29:15.359 --> 00:29:16.200
1975.

649
00:29:16.500 --> 00:29:19.079
And so they went for South African accents instead.

650
00:29:19.140 --> 00:29:21.180
Well, it makes it a bit that little bit more exotic.

651
00:29:21.240 --> 00:29:22.380
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

652
00:29:22.440 --> 00:29:22.859
Yeah.

653
00:29:22.920 --> 00:29:26.039
And the rationale behind it was that they just thought that the

654
00:29:26.039 --> 00:29:28.859
language would have changed and pronunciation was that was Bob

655
00:29:28.859 --> 00:29:31.319
Baker and Dave Martin's. rationale, I think.

656
00:29:31.380 --> 00:29:32.700
Oh, it actually comes from them.

657
00:29:32.759 --> 00:29:33.180
Wow, okay.

658
00:29:33.180 --> 00:29:34.920
Yeah, that they wanted.

659
00:29:34.980 --> 00:29:37.740
You know, like when they did that emergency exit thing.

660
00:29:37.799 --> 00:29:39.960
Is it the invisible enemy where it's spelt phonetically?

661
00:29:40.019 --> 00:29:43.200
So it's kind of an interest of theirs anyway, and they thought

662
00:29:43.200 --> 00:29:46.380
that, I think, because South African, the accent comes from a

663
00:29:46.380 --> 00:29:50.759
mixture of English and German and Dutch and things like that.

664
00:29:50.819 --> 00:29:51.059
Yeah.

665
00:29:51.660 --> 00:29:54.900
It's kind of a bit of a melting pot of different accents than they

666
00:29:54.900 --> 00:29:57.660
thought that, you know, over time that's that's how things would

667
00:29:57.660 --> 00:29:58.799
progress.

668
00:29:58.859 --> 00:30:03.420
And then they put in the, you understand and kind of shortening of

669
00:30:03.420 --> 00:30:04.920
words and things like that to suggest it.

670
00:30:04.980 --> 00:30:07.859
I suppose while still making it understandable for the audience.

671
00:30:07.920 --> 00:30:09.720
So I think it works like that.

672
00:30:09.779 --> 00:30:11.819
But it is a nice change not to have RPI.

673
00:30:11.880 --> 00:30:14.160
Yeah, there's some slang and stuff like that.

674
00:30:14.220 --> 00:30:17.519
Yeah, going bush, which just sounded like Australian slang to me

675
00:30:17.519 --> 00:30:19.799
but he's going bush, and it did mean he's gone crazy.

676
00:30:19.859 --> 00:30:22.019
Post from the Vietnam War, I think, yeah.

677
00:30:22.079 --> 00:30:22.859
Ah, yeah, okay.

678
00:30:22.920 --> 00:30:23.640
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

679
00:30:23.700 --> 00:30:26.400
There's enough sort of world building there.

680
00:30:26.519 --> 00:30:29.700
I mean, they're just basically aware to give someone to torture, I

681
00:30:29.700 --> 00:30:33.779
guess, but there's sort of enough world building there, I think.

682
00:30:33.839 --> 00:30:35.579
And it does seem satisfying.

683
00:30:35.640 --> 00:30:38.819
But we are in a situation that's impossible to imagine 2 years

684
00:30:38.819 --> 00:30:39.420
ago.

685
00:30:39.480 --> 00:30:41.279
Like, it's impossible.

686
00:30:41.339 --> 00:30:42.119
Meaning in season 10.

687
00:30:42.299 --> 00:30:46.200
Yeah, well, I just can't imagine someone like torturing Joe

688
00:30:46.200 --> 00:30:46.799
Grant.

689
00:30:46.859 --> 00:30:48.119
Do you know what I mean?

690
00:30:48.180 --> 00:30:49.380
Like doing that to her.

691
00:30:49.440 --> 00:30:53.160
Now, here it's a kind of sort of, it's sort of a space torturer

692
00:30:53.160 --> 00:30:58.319
and staff, but it's a problem in Doctor Who, I think, which is

693
00:30:58.319 --> 00:31:03.599
that as the performances get a little bit better, I think that

694
00:31:03.599 --> 00:31:08.880
there's a problem with, I don't want to watch prolonged scenes of

695
00:31:08.880 --> 00:31:10.920
the character's terrified or suffering.

696
00:31:11.160 --> 00:31:14.400
Well, not prolonged because in the same way that I don't enjoy

697
00:31:14.400 --> 00:31:17.940
prolonged sequences of action because it does get dull because

698
00:31:17.940 --> 00:31:19.079
there's no dialogue.

699
00:31:19.140 --> 00:31:19.619
So...

700
00:31:20.220 --> 00:31:21.960
But I think there's something like actively unpleasant.

701
00:31:22.019 --> 00:31:24.359
I find it like I just find it actively unpleasant.

702
00:31:24.420 --> 00:31:25.019
We've talked.

703
00:31:25.140 --> 00:31:28.980
I, you know, at length about Perry, for instance, on flight 3

704
00:31:28.980 --> 00:31:33.359
entirety, and just how part of the problem with Caves of Andrazani

705
00:31:33.359 --> 00:31:35.759
is she's too credibly scared.

706
00:31:35.819 --> 00:31:38.759
And that it's sort of unpleasant.

707
00:31:38.819 --> 00:31:42.660
And here I think like you can't torture Joe, right?

708
00:31:42.779 --> 00:31:48.599
Because it's not something that we do, but we do torture Sarah, and

709
00:31:48.599 --> 00:31:50.160
it's a big feature of this season.

710
00:31:50.220 --> 00:31:54.960
But this story, which is just about someone who tortures people to

711
00:31:54.960 --> 00:31:55.319
death.

712
00:31:55.799 --> 00:31:59.519
She's not tortured, but she goes through some pretty horrific

713
00:31:59.519 --> 00:32:00.359
kinds of things.

714
00:32:00.480 --> 00:32:04.799
Genesis being thrown off the gantry. you know, like she's

715
00:32:04.799 --> 00:32:06.960
tormented, I suppose, walking.

716
00:32:07.019 --> 00:32:09.359
I mean, look, you may find it distressing.

717
00:32:09.420 --> 00:32:12.599
I found it absolutely gripping and exciting as a child and still

718
00:32:12.599 --> 00:32:13.559
do as an adult.

719
00:32:13.619 --> 00:32:16.259
And going back to that peri thing in case Van Design, I think that

720
00:32:16.259 --> 00:32:20.880
it is so good because she is so good and it's so truthful.

721
00:32:20.940 --> 00:32:22.140
It's just brilliant.

722
00:32:22.200 --> 00:32:23.579
It's a fantastic performance.

723
00:32:23.700 --> 00:32:26.279
So, look, if you don't like watching that sort of thing.

724
00:32:26.339 --> 00:32:28.799
That's fine, but I just think that it's outstanding.

725
00:32:28.859 --> 00:32:34.019
I don't have a problem with the alleged torture of Sarah

726
00:32:34.019 --> 00:32:36.059
throughout the Hinchcliffe era.

727
00:32:36.119 --> 00:32:38.279
She, I mean, obviously she's literally being tortured in this

728
00:32:38.279 --> 00:32:40.380
story for that sequence.

729
00:32:40.440 --> 00:32:42.299
As you said, it's kind of space torture because it's kind of a

730
00:32:42.299 --> 00:32:43.980
mental thing that should be put through.

731
00:32:44.039 --> 00:32:47.039
It's the guys that are being physically tortured.

732
00:32:47.099 --> 00:32:48.900
She's kind of being mentally tortured.

733
00:32:48.900 --> 00:32:49.799
Yeah, yeah.

734
00:32:49.920 --> 00:32:51.000
But that's the theme of the story.

735
00:32:51.059 --> 00:32:52.140
I mean, everyone's getting tortured.

736
00:32:52.200 --> 00:32:54.240
Yeah, I know, but then you just wonder whether that's the story

737
00:32:54.240 --> 00:32:54.720
that we do.

738
00:32:54.779 --> 00:32:56.460
There's a really, really terrible feeling.

739
00:32:56.579 --> 00:32:57.240
I don't think.

740
00:32:57.299 --> 00:33:00.180
You know, if I would have been in charge, this story wouldn't have

741
00:33:00.180 --> 00:33:00.359
happened.

742
00:33:00.420 --> 00:33:04.799
It's that it's, you know, there's a very quick succession in which

743
00:33:04.799 --> 00:33:08.460
Harry comes across what he thinks is the dead body of the doctor

744
00:33:08.460 --> 00:33:12.779
and the dead body of Sarah and then the dead body of the prisoner

745
00:33:12.779 --> 00:33:15.900
who's died of thirst, like just in quick succession and you kind

746
00:33:15.900 --> 00:33:18.420
of think, I'm not having as much fun here.

747
00:33:18.480 --> 00:33:21.720
I really think I should be having while watching documentaries.

748
00:33:21.779 --> 00:33:23.519
But interestingly, I'm not invested.

749
00:33:23.579 --> 00:33:27.059
I'm not invested in the same way because maybe because it's just

750
00:33:27.059 --> 00:33:27.539
not long enough.

751
00:33:27.599 --> 00:33:29.880
I hate to say, or maybe because it's just, there's just not enough

752
00:33:29.880 --> 00:33:31.019
other interesting things going on.

753
00:33:31.079 --> 00:33:32.940
I mean, there's great world building, as we've said, and it's

754
00:33:32.940 --> 00:33:35.039
fascinating and I think it's really well done and all the rest of

755
00:33:35.039 --> 00:33:38.700
it, but I just need more something, more stuff.

756
00:33:38.819 --> 00:33:45.720
But look, I think the performances do add credibility to what

757
00:33:45.720 --> 00:33:48.119
you're doing because the good thing is it doesn't seem stupid

758
00:33:48.119 --> 00:33:50.460
because everyone's actually doing a really good job.

759
00:33:50.579 --> 00:33:52.019
Yeah, yeah.

760
00:33:52.019 --> 00:33:53.279
So nothing seems silly.

761
00:33:53.339 --> 00:33:54.059
Yeah, yeah.

762
00:33:54.059 --> 00:33:57.240
You know, list slating can sell the mental torture thing very, very

763
00:33:57.240 --> 00:34:00.420
well, whereas perhaps some other companions might have struggled.

764
00:34:00.480 --> 00:34:03.299
Yes, I did like the inflatable rubber snake.

765
00:34:03.359 --> 00:34:05.700
Yeah, more of which in a few weeks time.

766
00:34:06.720 --> 00:34:09.960
Good thing she was selling it well because the snake didn't.

767
00:34:10.019 --> 00:34:11.280
It was all right.

768
00:34:20.340 --> 00:34:25.320
So we talked a little bit about the Santarans as a Doctor Who

769
00:34:25.320 --> 00:34:26.579
monster generally.

770
00:34:26.639 --> 00:34:28.199
Are they up there?

771
00:34:28.260 --> 00:34:31.139
Are they number three after the...

772
00:34:31.139 --> 00:34:36.960
See, for me, as a child, and even as an adult, the Zygons, I think

773
00:34:36.960 --> 00:34:39.119
would be above this on Tyres, even though we only had the tear of

774
00:34:39.119 --> 00:34:39.900
the Zygons, is it?

775
00:34:39.960 --> 00:34:42.840
But I mean, as kind of something that we can pull out of the toy

776
00:34:42.840 --> 00:34:45.480
box and put on the screen every so often.

777
00:34:45.539 --> 00:34:50.579
I mean, we do have how many more Sontaran stories after this?

778
00:34:50.639 --> 00:34:52.559
In the classic year, just two.

779
00:34:52.559 --> 00:34:53.159
Two more.

780
00:34:53.159 --> 00:34:54.239
Age of time and 2 doctors.

781
00:34:54.300 --> 00:34:55.139
And 2 doctors, yeah.

782
00:34:55.199 --> 00:34:56.099
And in both.

783
00:34:56.159 --> 00:34:57.960
They're kind of add-ons.

784
00:34:58.019 --> 00:35:01.500
And I don't necessarily, well, maybe I do mean it in a bad way, in

785
00:35:01.500 --> 00:35:02.159
the invasion of time.

786
00:35:02.219 --> 00:35:05.460
But in 2 doctors, they're secondary to the main villains who are

787
00:35:05.460 --> 00:35:06.719
Cecini, who's the same.

788
00:35:06.719 --> 00:35:07.980
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

789
00:35:08.099 --> 00:35:10.739
And I see, so I think from that point of view, they do work as, and

790
00:35:10.739 --> 00:35:13.199
I think that's going back to the time warrior as well, one of the

791
00:35:13.199 --> 00:35:14.460
reasons the time warriors is good.

792
00:35:14.519 --> 00:35:16.800
Even though, yes, he is the alien and the villain.

793
00:35:16.860 --> 00:35:19.500
In some respects, he's secondary to iron gron.

794
00:35:19.559 --> 00:35:19.920
Yeah.

795
00:35:19.920 --> 00:35:23.639
And I think maybe the Santarians work better in that format.

796
00:35:23.699 --> 00:35:26.880
I mean, if you're talking about monsters to pull out of the draw.

797
00:35:26.940 --> 00:35:29.519
I mean, in some respects, we had the ice Warriors for a little

798
00:35:29.519 --> 00:35:29.699
bit.

799
00:35:29.760 --> 00:35:32.099
And now we've got the Santarans for a little bit.

800
00:35:32.219 --> 00:35:37.320
So you could say that they kind of segue into each other to fulfil

801
00:35:37.320 --> 00:35:38.460
well, I mean, a comparable role.

802
00:35:38.519 --> 00:35:41.460
I mean, all Doctor Who villain monsters like that feel the same

803
00:35:41.460 --> 00:35:42.119
role, really.

804
00:35:42.179 --> 00:35:45.000
Yeah, they're both quite a martial race, aren't they?

805
00:35:45.059 --> 00:35:46.500
I suppose that's the...

806
00:35:46.500 --> 00:35:49.860
That's military. that the similarities, they've got kind of cords

807
00:35:49.860 --> 00:35:51.360
of honour and that kind of thing.

808
00:35:51.420 --> 00:35:53.699
And I suppose you have the boss got 4 appearances as well.

809
00:35:53.760 --> 00:35:58.199
I guess the thing about them is their pomposity, you know, that

810
00:35:58.199 --> 00:36:00.900
that's that kind of is what's funny.

811
00:36:00.960 --> 00:36:02.340
And that's what we go for.

812
00:36:02.400 --> 00:36:08.159
I think when we bring them back in that two-parter in series four

813
00:36:08.159 --> 00:36:12.719
which I actually remember much more fondly than I thought of it at

814
00:36:12.719 --> 00:36:13.500
the time.

815
00:36:13.559 --> 00:36:15.059
And their fun there.

816
00:36:15.119 --> 00:36:17.820
And of course, you've got Christopher Ryan as our kind of hero

817
00:36:17.820 --> 00:36:19.920
Santara, and that.

818
00:36:19.980 --> 00:36:25.079
And of course, Dan Starkey, who will go on to be a semi-regular

819
00:36:25.079 --> 00:36:30.239
character and in that Moffatt world where he literally is pulling

820
00:36:30.239 --> 00:36:33.239
his action figures kind of out of the box, isn't he?

821
00:36:33.300 --> 00:36:35.579
And he said, we're having a Silurian and we're having, you know

822
00:36:35.579 --> 00:36:38.699
we're not having a Santarian story in the Moffat era, but we will

823
00:36:38.699 --> 00:36:42.420
have a Santarian character. and perhaps the best Santarian

824
00:36:42.420 --> 00:36:43.440
character, I think.

825
00:36:43.500 --> 00:36:45.000
Lynx is great.

826
00:36:45.059 --> 00:36:48.059
But Strax is fantastic.

827
00:36:48.119 --> 00:36:50.940
And even though he sort of goes on for a sort of long period of

828
00:36:50.940 --> 00:36:51.239
time.

829
00:36:51.300 --> 00:36:54.539
You know, he's being written by someone who is a sitcom writer.

830
00:36:54.599 --> 00:36:58.079
And so he can actually do kind of proper jokes and stuff.

831
00:36:58.139 --> 00:37:04.199
And I had long thought that that had kind of finished the Sontarus

832
00:37:04.199 --> 00:37:07.260
as a possible Doctor Who monster.

833
00:37:07.260 --> 00:37:09.539
And then we get the, and then we get...

834
00:37:09.599 --> 00:37:12.000
Yeah, which they are properly good, I think.

835
00:37:12.000 --> 00:37:12.659
I think they are too.

836
00:37:12.719 --> 00:37:16.500
And, I mean, you know, the whole premise of War of the Santarans

837
00:37:16.500 --> 00:37:19.800
where it's the Crimean War, but no one's ever heard of the

838
00:37:19.800 --> 00:37:21.719
Russians we're fighting the Santarans.

839
00:37:21.780 --> 00:37:23.460
He's absolute genius.

840
00:37:23.519 --> 00:37:24.840
Like it's really terribly good.

841
00:37:24.900 --> 00:37:26.820
I can't remember how it all fists together.

842
00:37:26.880 --> 00:37:27.960
Maybe I'm not supposed to.

843
00:37:28.079 --> 00:37:32.099
I think the 21st century criticism of what they did, quote unquote

844
00:37:32.099 --> 00:37:36.239
did to the Swansharians is the fact that I started finding them

845
00:37:36.239 --> 00:37:39.360
annoying at times when I felt that they were leaning just too

846
00:37:39.360 --> 00:37:43.199
heavily in on being just kind of Doctor Who Klingons in terms of

847
00:37:43.199 --> 00:37:45.539
the militaristic stuff and the honour and all that sort of thing.

848
00:37:45.539 --> 00:37:48.300
It was almost like there were too many lines directly lifted from

849
00:37:48.300 --> 00:37:49.500
various Star Treks.

850
00:37:49.559 --> 00:37:51.659
And I think that's that's certainly what annoyed me about it.

851
00:37:51.780 --> 00:37:55.739
Do you know, that's how I feel about the Ice Warriors in the new

852
00:37:55.739 --> 00:37:56.400
series, actually.

853
00:37:56.460 --> 00:37:59.340
It's very similar. very, very similar thing.

854
00:37:59.400 --> 00:38:02.219
I feel it's like, I don't feel we're being original here.

855
00:38:02.280 --> 00:38:06.119
I feel that the show is now leaning, trying to, and it's not

856
00:38:06.119 --> 00:38:09.300
borrowing from Star Trek or doing a prestigious Star Trek. just

857
00:38:09.300 --> 00:38:10.800
ripping it off. that's not the same thing.

858
00:38:10.920 --> 00:38:13.139
Or just kind of doing the obvious thing.

859
00:38:13.199 --> 00:38:14.699
It's almost like...

860
00:38:14.760 --> 00:38:15.900
Obviously, that's it, what it is.

861
00:38:15.960 --> 00:38:16.380
Yeah, yeah.

862
00:38:16.440 --> 00:38:16.920
That what it is.

863
00:38:16.980 --> 00:38:17.940
I agree.

864
00:38:18.000 --> 00:38:19.139
I love Strax as well.

865
00:38:19.199 --> 00:38:23.039
And his, and I know people get a bit tired of it, but I love it.

866
00:38:23.099 --> 00:38:26.159
The whole thing that whatever the situation or the problem is, his

867
00:38:26.159 --> 00:38:30.840
is a weapons-based solution or a military solution is grenades and

868
00:38:30.840 --> 00:38:33.539
things like that, no matter what domestic chore it is or

869
00:38:33.539 --> 00:38:33.840
anything.

870
00:38:33.900 --> 00:38:35.940
Yeah, I constantly find that hilarious.

871
00:38:36.000 --> 00:38:36.179
Yeah.

872
00:38:36.239 --> 00:38:39.420
It's interesting things that are in their origins that get left

873
00:38:39.420 --> 00:38:39.719
behind.

874
00:38:39.780 --> 00:38:43.980
So time travel is never a thing for them again after the, you know

875
00:38:43.980 --> 00:38:46.679
the original, sorry, being the time warrior.

876
00:38:46.679 --> 00:38:51.000
They're not a big kind of time faring race, again.

877
00:38:51.059 --> 00:38:53.519
They don't use robots again after this, which I guess is

878
00:38:53.519 --> 00:38:56.039
understandable because the robot's not popular.

879
00:38:56.099 --> 00:39:00.000
Only the core of them remains and the stuff around them changes

880
00:39:00.000 --> 00:39:00.900
quite a lot, doesn't it?

881
00:39:00.960 --> 00:39:03.840
I'd never thought about that, but they're actually trying to get

882
00:39:03.840 --> 00:39:06.300
time travel in the 2 doctors.

883
00:39:06.360 --> 00:39:09.719
So how does that fit in with the Time Warrior?

884
00:39:09.780 --> 00:39:12.420
Well, there is a difference, I suppose, you could argue with a

885
00:39:12.420 --> 00:39:17.460
control time travel versus being able to nick a big head scientist

886
00:39:17.460 --> 00:39:21.659
from seven, 800 years in the future, maybe, somewhat inaccurately

887
00:39:21.659 --> 00:39:21.960
as well.

888
00:39:22.019 --> 00:39:23.099
Yeah.

889
00:39:27.719 --> 00:39:30.960
If I can just mention the Australian experience, at least the

890
00:39:30.960 --> 00:39:33.840
Australian experience for people of my vintage, as we all know as

891
00:39:33.840 --> 00:39:38.340
good Doctor Who fans, this story is shot before Arc in Space, yet

892
00:39:38.340 --> 00:39:41.039
meant to be shown afterwards.

893
00:39:41.099 --> 00:39:45.480
And a number of times when the ABC showed it, as was their want

894
00:39:45.480 --> 00:39:49.320
they would show things in story code order rather than, oh, wow.

895
00:39:50.099 --> 00:39:52.800
So for instance, we got Mark of the Rani after 2 doctors, which

896
00:39:52.800 --> 00:39:53.460
works perfectly fine.

897
00:39:53.519 --> 00:39:54.300
Yeah, yeah.

898
00:39:54.420 --> 00:39:56.940
They only swapped it because they didn't want the two historical

899
00:39:56.940 --> 00:39:57.719
characters next to each other.

900
00:39:57.780 --> 00:40:01.079
Is that the same problem that we get with the Sylvester McCoy?

901
00:40:01.139 --> 00:40:06.059
Well, again, one could argue that with season 25, it's the UK that

902
00:40:06.059 --> 00:40:07.019
showed it in the wrong order.

903
00:40:07.079 --> 00:40:12.659
No, no, no, because there's the badge on Ace. that she doesn't get

904
00:40:12.659 --> 00:40:14.820
until Greater Show, which they show at the end, but she's already

905
00:40:14.820 --> 00:40:16.079
wearing it in the silver nemesis.

906
00:40:16.139 --> 00:40:18.360
And of course, that's just because it all gets delayed because of

907
00:40:18.360 --> 00:40:18.960
the Olympics.

908
00:40:18.960 --> 00:40:21.960
And J&T wanted Sylvan Nemesis to be on the anniversary.

909
00:40:22.019 --> 00:40:25.079
So the UK actually shows season 25 in the wrong order.

910
00:40:25.139 --> 00:40:30.000
But we get quite often in those repeats of the 625 line pertwees

911
00:40:30.000 --> 00:40:32.280
we get carnival of monsters shown before 3 doctors because

912
00:40:32.280 --> 00:40:35.579
carnival's monsters is made before 3 doctors, et cetera.

913
00:40:35.639 --> 00:40:38.460
So the 1st time I saw Santarian experiment.

914
00:40:38.519 --> 00:40:39.599
It made no sense.

915
00:40:39.599 --> 00:40:43.320
Well, I'm trying to remember because I came in at Planet of the

916
00:40:43.320 --> 00:40:44.880
Smiters 2 on one of those repeat runs.

917
00:40:44.940 --> 00:40:50.460
And so entire experiment therefore becomes the 10th and 11th

918
00:40:50.460 --> 00:40:52.079
episodes of Doctor Who that I've ever seen.

919
00:40:52.139 --> 00:40:53.039
Oh, wow, okay.

920
00:40:53.099 --> 00:40:57.119
And yet, I have absolutely no memory of being confused by what's

921
00:40:57.119 --> 00:40:59.340
going on here, like anything about it just, it just kind of on.

922
00:40:59.400 --> 00:41:01.619
And it's extraordinary to think that I watched planned of the

923
00:41:01.619 --> 00:41:05.940
Spiders robots and Suntarian experiment and yet persevere with the

924
00:41:05.940 --> 00:41:07.320
show as my introduction.

925
00:41:07.320 --> 00:41:09.659
Because obviously it's sort of all uphill from there.

926
00:41:09.719 --> 00:41:11.760
But basically that happens a couple of times.

927
00:41:11.820 --> 00:41:14.880
And so the 1st 2 times I saw on Tyron Experiment, it was before

928
00:41:14.880 --> 00:41:15.780
Arc and Space.

929
00:41:15.840 --> 00:41:16.920
They get it right later.

930
00:41:16.980 --> 00:41:19.980
But interesting also what happens is that Santana experiment is

931
00:41:19.980 --> 00:41:22.860
kind of like a bit of a missing story for me because there are

932
00:41:22.860 --> 00:41:25.619
several repeat runs that the ABC does where they just skip it

933
00:41:25.619 --> 00:41:26.159
entirely.

934
00:41:26.159 --> 00:41:27.119
Wow.

935
00:41:27.119 --> 00:41:28.500
Because...

936
00:41:28.500 --> 00:41:29.699
They're showing 4 episodes.

937
00:41:29.820 --> 00:41:30.900
They're showing 4 episodes a week.

938
00:41:30.960 --> 00:41:33.539
But for some reason, the other combinations of stuff, you know

939
00:41:33.539 --> 00:41:35.400
they need it to finish on a Thursday, because it was usually

940
00:41:35.400 --> 00:41:39.059
Monday to Thursday, um, and they needed tear of the Zygons 4 to

941
00:41:39.059 --> 00:41:40.260
finish the run or whatever it was.

942
00:41:40.320 --> 00:41:41.579
And it was so often during the 2nd 4th.

943
00:41:41.639 --> 00:41:43.619
Or Marx, the Mandragore before, was where they often ended too.

944
00:41:43.679 --> 00:41:46.980
That's why I have a very odd relationship with this story is I

945
00:41:46.980 --> 00:41:49.739
sort of mainly never short saw it in the right spot.

946
00:41:49.800 --> 00:41:54.000
And even when I did, I kind of forgot it immediately anyway, except

947
00:41:54.000 --> 00:41:57.360
for one thing, and that is Styles melting head at the end, which

948
00:41:57.360 --> 00:42:01.800
was one of those Doctor Who visions, sort of memories, which stuck

949
00:42:01.800 --> 00:42:04.260
with me for years and years and years, and it was probably one of

950
00:42:04.260 --> 00:42:06.179
those things that then sometime experiment wasn't shown for a

951
00:42:06.179 --> 00:42:09.420
while, and so then I was kind of waiting to see that moment, and I

952
00:42:09.420 --> 00:42:11.639
couldn't remember where it was, and so on, like, kind of like

953
00:42:11.639 --> 00:42:14.579
remembering, I remembered the multiple Mona Lisa's from City of

954
00:42:14.579 --> 00:42:18.420
Death, without trying to work out where it fit in with Doctor Who

955
00:42:18.420 --> 00:42:19.860
because there was no novelisation.

956
00:42:19.920 --> 00:42:22.500
So I didn't even know where where the hell did he even see main

957
00:42:22.500 --> 00:42:22.920
leases?

958
00:42:22.980 --> 00:42:23.219
Anyway.

959
00:42:23.280 --> 00:42:26.699
I mean, that's a reasonable special effect, isn't it?

960
00:42:26.760 --> 00:42:27.780
It's great.

961
00:42:27.840 --> 00:42:28.619
It's not Kane.

962
00:42:28.679 --> 00:42:29.880
No.

963
00:42:29.880 --> 00:42:31.199
And it's not the heat.

964
00:42:31.199 --> 00:42:33.300
I would argue it's actually better than Kane, because Kane looks

965
00:42:33.300 --> 00:42:36.599
like it's a stop motion or a sped up bit of film where they've

966
00:42:36.599 --> 00:42:39.539
melted a thing, whereas this looks like a real stop.

967
00:42:39.599 --> 00:42:40.860
Well, it's done in camera, isn't it?

968
00:42:40.920 --> 00:42:43.920
It's just a balloon kind of deflating.

969
00:42:43.980 --> 00:42:44.880
I think it looks absolutely great.

970
00:42:44.940 --> 00:42:46.559
And it's very Wizard of Oz.

971
00:42:46.619 --> 00:42:49.860
It's sort of, you know, I think it's for a kid, for a kid, it's

972
00:42:49.860 --> 00:42:53.039
very effective as to why they're destroying the elemy. especially

973
00:42:53.039 --> 00:42:55.619
because then you see the whole suit is deflated as well.

974
00:42:55.679 --> 00:42:56.880
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

975
00:42:56.940 --> 00:42:58.079
It is pretty clever.

976
00:42:58.139 --> 00:43:01.800
The novelisation has quite a bit of Harry going through the

977
00:43:01.800 --> 00:43:03.719
endless, the tunnels and stuff.

978
00:43:04.139 --> 00:43:07.380
Well, yeah, I know, but it's him writing about here.

979
00:43:07.440 --> 00:43:08.940
It's him, right?

980
00:43:08.940 --> 00:43:10.800
Good on Ian, yes, well done.

981
00:43:10.860 --> 00:43:12.960
He needs to make that much more heroic.

982
00:43:13.019 --> 00:43:15.059
And that's actually with Ian just going back to the fact that, of

983
00:43:15.059 --> 00:43:16.440
course, there's a shot before. fucking space.

984
00:43:16.500 --> 00:43:21.239
Harry's character is much more, much more old-fashioned because he

985
00:43:21.239 --> 00:43:22.800
does actually soften throughout the season.

986
00:43:22.860 --> 00:43:25.079
He's kind of even softens during arc and space.

987
00:43:25.139 --> 00:43:26.940
I mean, he talks about giving her brandy at the beginning.

988
00:43:27.000 --> 00:43:30.119
Then he kind of softens, modernises a bit.

989
00:43:30.179 --> 00:43:33.719
Whereas he seems to have leapt back to where he was in robot, for

990
00:43:33.719 --> 00:43:34.559
some time experiment.

991
00:43:34.619 --> 00:43:35.519
Call her old thing.

992
00:43:35.579 --> 00:43:38.159
Exactly all the old things stuff, which she objects to, et cetera

993
00:43:38.159 --> 00:43:38.519
et cetera.

994
00:43:38.579 --> 00:43:39.719
And of course, because it shot first.

995
00:43:39.780 --> 00:43:41.280
He's wonderful, isn't he?

996
00:43:41.340 --> 00:43:42.119
Oh, he's fantastic.

997
00:43:42.179 --> 00:43:44.460
I love I love this TARDIS combination.

998
00:43:44.519 --> 00:43:46.619
Dr. Sarah and Harry for me.

999
00:43:46.679 --> 00:43:49.739
Maybe it's just because that's what I got basically straight away

1000
00:43:49.739 --> 00:43:52.800
from my 1st watching at the show, but I just think it works so

1001
00:43:52.800 --> 00:43:53.699
well, the 3 of them.

1002
00:43:53.820 --> 00:43:59.460
I mean, as an adult, I object to the Hinchcliffe era in some ways

1003
00:43:59.460 --> 00:44:03.000
because I think it is actually too violent and too nasty and a bit

1004
00:44:03.000 --> 00:44:03.900
too relentless.

1005
00:44:03.960 --> 00:44:09.840
But like season 12 is like just this polished perfect thing, isn't

1006
00:44:09.840 --> 00:44:09.960
it?

1007
00:44:10.019 --> 00:44:10.739
It's amazing.

1008
00:44:10.800 --> 00:44:12.179
It's so amazing.

1009
00:44:12.239 --> 00:44:13.440
It really is good.

1010
00:44:13.500 --> 00:44:16.079
It makes such a big change to Doctor Who.

1011
00:44:16.139 --> 00:44:21.300
Robot is so different a show from revenge of the cyberman.

1012
00:44:21.360 --> 00:44:24.420
And those 3 together are just so great.

1013
00:44:24.480 --> 00:44:27.840
And you kind of forget how often Sarah's off running her own

1014
00:44:27.840 --> 00:44:28.440
plot.

1015
00:44:28.500 --> 00:44:31.079
And it's the doctor and Harry together.

1016
00:44:31.139 --> 00:44:33.000
Although you often got Joe running her own plot.

1017
00:44:33.059 --> 00:44:34.019
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1018
00:44:34.079 --> 00:44:36.599
But I mean, when you have 3 characters. you know what I mean?

1019
00:44:36.659 --> 00:44:39.059
Like Sarah's often, it's the boys who are kind of together.

1020
00:44:39.119 --> 00:44:41.699
But that's why I think 2 companion things, so the 3 regulars

1021
00:44:41.699 --> 00:44:42.539
actually works really well.

1022
00:44:42.599 --> 00:44:46.500
I do like the single companion, but I've always had a big soft

1023
00:44:46.500 --> 00:44:50.219
spot for the 2 companions and I think you get it in season 12

1024
00:44:50.219 --> 00:44:51.480
probably the most perfectly.

1025
00:44:51.539 --> 00:44:56.039
As you suggest, in Ark in Space, in Genesis of the Daleks, you get

1026
00:44:56.039 --> 00:44:59.280
the doctor in Harry doing the thing while Sarah basically gets to

1027
00:44:59.280 --> 00:45:02.400
have her, not so much B plot, but her sort of A2 plot.

1028
00:45:02.460 --> 00:45:05.219
You know, it's acting as a co-lead.

1029
00:45:05.280 --> 00:45:09.119
And so the Harry is kind of the doctor's companion for those

1030
00:45:09.119 --> 00:45:09.480
bits.

1031
00:45:09.539 --> 00:45:12.360
And likewise, in revenge of the side, and they're all doing their

1032
00:45:12.360 --> 00:45:13.320
own bits and pieces.

1033
00:45:13.320 --> 00:45:15.119
And then Sarah and Harry get being down.

1034
00:45:15.119 --> 00:45:15.539
Which is what?

1035
00:45:15.599 --> 00:45:19.139
and do their stuff and it's so intelligent and interesting and

1036
00:45:19.139 --> 00:45:21.719
there is so much depth and thought.

1037
00:45:21.780 --> 00:45:27.119
I feel put into how these characters are relating to the

1038
00:45:27.119 --> 00:45:30.599
environments that they're in much more beyond the superficial

1039
00:45:30.599 --> 00:45:34.800
which you do start to get later in the series and you had earlier

1040
00:45:34.800 --> 00:45:35.400
as well.

1041
00:45:35.460 --> 00:45:39.119
But I think that they really care about what would these

1042
00:45:39.119 --> 00:45:42.480
characters think if they were suddenly on the space station in the

1043
00:45:42.480 --> 00:45:43.980
30 something century.

1044
00:45:44.039 --> 00:45:45.539
Oh, sorry, 1000s of years, Harry.

1045
00:45:45.599 --> 00:45:46.199
Yes.

1046
00:45:47.460 --> 00:45:51.780
And the whole tone of the season, too, is the season and the era

1047
00:45:51.780 --> 00:45:54.900
is just so, it just epitomises for me, Doctor, at its most

1048
00:45:54.900 --> 00:45:55.440
successful.

1049
00:45:55.500 --> 00:45:59.280
It's the way as I should have touched on before, everyone's

1050
00:45:59.280 --> 00:46:01.860
treating it seriously, that doesn't mean that there aren't funny

1051
00:46:01.860 --> 00:46:03.900
moments and doesn't mean that there aren't lighter moments and

1052
00:46:03.900 --> 00:46:05.219
funny lines and all the rest of it.

1053
00:46:05.280 --> 00:46:09.179
But everyone from the directors to the writers to the actors, to

1054
00:46:09.179 --> 00:46:12.239
the costume people, the stunt people, they're all treating it

1055
00:46:12.239 --> 00:46:13.559
absolutely seriously.

1056
00:46:13.619 --> 00:46:18.239
And that's how you get good, Doctor Who. giving it their all.

1057
00:46:18.300 --> 00:46:20.519
Like they're all really committed.

1058
00:46:20.579 --> 00:46:24.599
I think it also shows the breadth of what Doctor Who can do as

1059
00:46:24.599 --> 00:46:26.039
well in a way.

1060
00:46:26.099 --> 00:46:30.840
It's in some ways, it's similar to a modern Doctor Who season.

1061
00:46:30.900 --> 00:46:32.880
It does a temporary story, it does.

1062
00:46:32.940 --> 00:46:35.940
You know, it has outer space stories.

1063
00:46:36.000 --> 00:46:37.800
It has, you know, future stories.

1064
00:46:37.860 --> 00:46:42.239
Like it kind of shows the gamut of what you can do.

1065
00:46:42.300 --> 00:46:46.679
Yeah, especially if you put Terror of the Zygons on as... which

1066
00:46:46.679 --> 00:46:47.579
kind of is supposed to be.

1067
00:46:47.639 --> 00:46:50.219
I mean, it sort of belongs in both seasons for me.

1068
00:46:50.280 --> 00:46:53.519
I know robot is kind of a pertly leftover in a season of shot with

1069
00:46:53.519 --> 00:46:54.000
season 11.

1070
00:46:54.239 --> 00:46:57.360
But even if you include it from, you know, Robot through Terror of

1071
00:46:57.360 --> 00:46:58.800
the Zygons, there is a difference.

1072
00:46:58.860 --> 00:47:02.159
And you can see in season 11 how much the show has started to

1073
00:47:02.159 --> 00:47:03.420
tire.

1074
00:47:03.480 --> 00:47:07.199
And I'm very fond of a lot of season 11, which time war is great.

1075
00:47:07.260 --> 00:47:08.340
Death of the Daleks is great.

1076
00:47:08.400 --> 00:47:09.960
There are some of the dinosaurs.

1077
00:47:10.019 --> 00:47:13.260
No, I like it. but even despite the fact that it's all wonderful

1078
00:47:13.260 --> 00:47:14.039
and enjoyable.

1079
00:47:14.099 --> 00:47:15.599
There is something about a sense.

1080
00:47:15.719 --> 00:47:18.000
I don't know whether it's just because we know that the year is

1081
00:47:18.000 --> 00:47:18.659
coming to an end or not.

1082
00:47:18.719 --> 00:47:19.980
I don't think it's that.

1083
00:47:20.039 --> 00:47:22.260
I just think there is a sense that things are beginning to tire

1084
00:47:22.260 --> 00:47:24.239
out in terms of the format that we're using needs to be shaken

1085
00:47:24.239 --> 00:47:24.420
up.

1086
00:47:24.539 --> 00:47:25.739
Let's not talk about it.

1087
00:47:25.800 --> 00:47:27.360
It's Monster of Paladon, isn't it?

1088
00:47:31.500 --> 00:47:35.219
But again, I can't remember much about Monstra Belladon.

1089
00:47:35.280 --> 00:47:37.800
I haven't watched such waiting for the season 11 box yet.

1090
00:47:37.860 --> 00:47:39.780
Yeah, it is a terrific season.

1091
00:47:39.900 --> 00:47:42.960
I think you can see why they chose it as the 1st one to release in

1092
00:47:42.960 --> 00:47:47.400
the Blu-ray collection set in terms of if there are, you know, kind

1093
00:47:47.400 --> 00:47:49.559
of new series viewers that hadn't seen the classic series.

1094
00:47:49.619 --> 00:47:50.760
It's a great one.

1095
00:47:50.880 --> 00:47:53.880
Before everything was available on the iPlayer, you know, this in

1096
00:47:53.880 --> 00:47:54.360
the UK.

1097
00:47:54.480 --> 00:47:57.780
This is a great one to get fans into the classic series because

1098
00:47:57.780 --> 00:48:00.119
you've got a lot of recognisable monsters that they'll know from

1099
00:48:00.119 --> 00:48:00.780
the modern series.

1100
00:48:00.840 --> 00:48:04.320
And yeah, and it's quite transitional, isn't it?

1101
00:48:04.380 --> 00:48:06.360
Because Barry Letts is still working on it and on some tone

1102
00:48:06.360 --> 00:48:06.900
experiment.

1103
00:48:06.960 --> 00:48:08.219
He was still around and stuff.

1104
00:48:08.280 --> 00:48:12.780
And like you say, robot to tear the Zigons. kind of it's kind of

1105
00:48:12.780 --> 00:48:17.699
bookended with 2 unit stories, but they've changed loads in that

1106
00:48:17.699 --> 00:48:19.980
time, the tone of it and the characters and everything.

1107
00:48:20.039 --> 00:48:23.219
And then they kind of leave all that behind as they go into season

1108
00:48:23.219 --> 00:48:23.519
13.

1109
00:48:23.639 --> 00:48:27.360
Just to expand on what you're saying there, Mark, about this is

1110
00:48:27.360 --> 00:48:30.780
what, you know, new viewers might come into.

1111
00:48:30.840 --> 00:48:34.739
We're often asked, you know, if you had to show someone a classic

1112
00:48:34.739 --> 00:48:35.219
story.

1113
00:48:35.280 --> 00:48:36.000
What would it be?

1114
00:48:36.059 --> 00:48:38.219
It's not the entire experiment.

1115
00:48:38.280 --> 00:48:40.559
But it is so much of this era.

1116
00:48:40.619 --> 00:48:44.400
You can so easily show them something like I can space or Genesis

1117
00:48:44.400 --> 00:48:47.400
of the Darks or tear up the Zygons or much of the rest of the

1118
00:48:47.400 --> 00:48:53.340
Hinchcliffe era and not be concerned about how poorly it might

1119
00:48:53.340 --> 00:48:55.920
have aged from a production standards point of view.

1120
00:48:55.980 --> 00:48:58.920
We can say other things about the fact that there are very few

1121
00:48:58.920 --> 00:49:00.539
women in it, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

1122
00:49:00.599 --> 00:49:03.179
But in terms of from what it looks like and what it feels like and

1123
00:49:03.179 --> 00:49:05.940
how it seriously it's treated, it treats itself.

1124
00:49:06.000 --> 00:49:10.500
You can't go past most of these stories in order to attract a new

1125
00:49:10.500 --> 00:49:12.119
audience into the classic show.

1126
00:49:12.179 --> 00:49:15.420
I mean, I think the pertoy era under Letts is pretty strong

1127
00:49:15.480 --> 00:49:16.440
absolutely.

1128
00:49:16.500 --> 00:49:18.719
And it's not this at all.

1129
00:49:18.780 --> 00:49:23.400
And it is a thing, I think, that, like, I'm not someone who thinks

1130
00:49:23.400 --> 00:49:26.760
that the Hinchcliffe era is the core of what Doctor Who should

1131
00:49:26.760 --> 00:49:27.059
be.

1132
00:49:27.059 --> 00:49:31.440
And I do think that the Lets era is super important at defining

1133
00:49:31.440 --> 00:49:34.380
that as well as sort of other later eras as well.

1134
00:49:34.440 --> 00:49:40.380
But what strikes me is so strange as we go from like a story that

1135
00:49:40.380 --> 00:49:44.099
has a mad scientist with massive puffy hair and like this sort of

1136
00:49:44.099 --> 00:49:47.579
absurd performance and stuff and you've got the robot, which is

1137
00:49:47.579 --> 00:49:48.900
sort of cheesy as hell and stuff.

1138
00:49:48.960 --> 00:49:54.659
And then the next story, the aliens are going to eat you alive and

1139
00:49:54.659 --> 00:49:55.619
steal your memories.

1140
00:49:55.679 --> 00:49:58.260
The story after that, they're going to torture you to death.

1141
00:49:58.320 --> 00:49:59.519
Do you know what I mean?

1142
00:49:59.579 --> 00:50:02.219
Like you basically for fun, just basically to see...

1143
00:50:02.219 --> 00:50:03.000
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1144
00:50:03.000 --> 00:50:03.599
It makes you tick.

1145
00:50:04.260 --> 00:50:08.940
No, I'm just testing the compressibility of the human chest.

1146
00:50:08.940 --> 00:50:10.019
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1147
00:50:10.079 --> 00:50:14.579
Like all of that stuff is so, it's so amazing. such a weird change

1148
00:50:14.579 --> 00:50:15.360
in tone.

1149
00:50:15.420 --> 00:50:19.199
And I get, like, I kind of get some of the backlash.

1150
00:50:19.260 --> 00:50:22.559
I sort of understand it and it's telling, I think, that the new

1151
00:50:22.559 --> 00:50:26.400
series has never really gone too far in that direction.

1152
00:50:26.519 --> 00:50:31.079
And it has gone in that direction from time to time, but never

1153
00:50:31.079 --> 00:50:33.840
sort of consistently in the way that the Hinggliffear it does.

1154
00:50:33.900 --> 00:50:36.239
All with the confidence that it's the right thing to do.

1155
00:50:36.300 --> 00:50:38.880
Standards have changed in terms of what you would do.

1156
00:50:38.940 --> 00:50:42.360
You know, you wouldn't, there is a reason why the repeat of Deadly

1157
00:50:42.360 --> 00:50:45.300
Assassin 3 has the doctor's head suspended under the water

1158
00:50:45.300 --> 00:50:46.800
shortened, right?

1159
00:50:46.860 --> 00:50:47.519
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1160
00:50:47.519 --> 00:50:51.000
It's because they realise even at the time, that's probably a bit

1161
00:50:51.000 --> 00:50:51.300
much.

1162
00:50:51.360 --> 00:50:55.559
And things were definitely a bit more graphic in that era and they

1163
00:50:55.559 --> 00:50:57.960
become more graphic in a different way in the 80s.

1164
00:50:58.019 --> 00:50:58.440
Yeah.

1165
00:50:58.440 --> 00:51:02.099
But just because of the way the universe is.

1166
00:51:02.159 --> 00:51:05.880
But I didn't realise that Doctor Who was a ongoing thing until the

1167
00:51:05.880 --> 00:51:09.420
leisure hive, because like watching the Brady Bunch repeats, you

1168
00:51:09.420 --> 00:51:12.420
just assumed, I just assumed in my bizarre brain that I had when I

1169
00:51:12.420 --> 00:51:16.380
was 8 years old, that it was a finite thing and you just watched

1170
00:51:16.380 --> 00:51:18.059
it and, you know, everything was finite.

1171
00:51:18.119 --> 00:51:19.619
Everything had a beginning and middle and end, right?

1172
00:51:19.619 --> 00:51:22.199
And then when the leisure hive comes on, I go, oh, my God, they're

1173
00:51:22.199 --> 00:51:22.559
still making this.

1174
00:51:22.619 --> 00:51:23.039
This is new.

1175
00:51:23.099 --> 00:51:23.699
This is actually new.

1176
00:51:23.760 --> 00:51:26.820
Even though I had seen season 17 on its 1st transmission.

1177
00:51:26.880 --> 00:51:27.900
I didn't know that's what it was.

1178
00:51:27.960 --> 00:51:31.619
Once that happens and I enjoy, I enjoy season 18 and I enjoy

1179
00:51:31.619 --> 00:51:33.000
season 19 and all the rest of it.

1180
00:51:33.059 --> 00:51:36.780
But there is something about at the end of time flight.

1181
00:51:36.780 --> 00:51:40.139
And next week, we went back to Robots.

1182
00:51:40.199 --> 00:51:41.039
I was home.

1183
00:51:41.099 --> 00:51:42.239
Do you know what I mean?

1184
00:51:42.300 --> 00:51:45.059
And they do it again after season 20 and when, you know, and when

1185
00:51:45.059 --> 00:51:48.539
they kept going back to do the repeats of this era, particularly

1186
00:51:48.539 --> 00:51:49.800
the Hinchcliffe era.

1187
00:51:49.800 --> 00:51:52.440
And yes, these were the 1st episodes I watched.

1188
00:51:52.500 --> 00:51:54.300
Does that happen something to do with it?

1189
00:51:54.360 --> 00:51:54.900
quite possibly.

1190
00:51:55.019 --> 00:51:58.980
But nevertheless, even though I was seeing them on repeats for the

1191
00:51:58.980 --> 00:52:01.980
third, fourth, fifth, sixth, 7th time and reading the

1192
00:52:01.980 --> 00:52:03.719
novelisations, this is home.

1193
00:52:28.619 --> 00:52:31.739
Well, that's all the time we had for this week.

1194
00:52:31.800 --> 00:52:35.400
We'll be back next week for a deep dive into the dark places of

1195
00:52:35.400 --> 00:52:40.199
the inside as we await the return of the Mara in Snake Dance.

1196
00:52:40.380 --> 00:52:44.340
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts

1197
00:52:44.340 --> 00:52:48.179
and you can keep up with us on our website, 500yearDiary.com, where

1198
00:52:48.179 --> 00:52:51.119
you'll find our social media links as well as links to all of our

1199
00:52:51.119 --> 00:52:55.139
other podcasts, including our other Doctor Who podcasts, flight

1200
00:52:55.139 --> 00:52:58.500
through entirety, and the 2nd great and bountiful Human Empire.

1201
00:52:58.559 --> 00:53:02.579
Until next time, remember to keep a piece of synastic locking

1202
00:53:02.579 --> 00:53:05.940
mechanism on your person at all times for luck.

1203
00:53:06.000 --> 00:53:08.880
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

1204
00:53:08.940 --> 00:53:09.960
Ta-ta.

1205
00:53:10.019 --> 00:53:10.739
Goodbye.

1206
00:53:10.800 --> 00:53:11.880
I'm melting.

1207
00:53:24.719 --> 00:53:29.099
That was 500 year diary, starring Nathan Bottomley, Mark McManus

1208
00:53:29.099 --> 00:53:30.780
Simon Moore and James Selwood.

1209
00:53:30.840 --> 00:53:33.420
The theme was composed by Cameron Lamb.

1210
00:53:33.480 --> 00:53:37.739
This episode, exaggerated military people, was recorded on the

1211
00:53:37.739 --> 00:53:41.820
12th of April 2025 and released on the 18th of May.

1212
00:53:42.360 --> 00:53:46.500
And if you want to hear our breathless spoilerific take on this

1213
00:53:46.500 --> 00:53:50.519
week's Doctor Who episode, the interstellar song contest, head on

1214
00:53:50.519 --> 00:53:54.239
over to greatandbountiful.com on Monday and subscribe in your

1215
00:53:54.239 --> 00:53:55.320
podcatcher of choice.

1216
00:53:55.380 --> 00:53:56.760
We'll see you there.

1217
00:54:09.360 --> 00:54:10.980
What do you think?

1218
00:54:11.039 --> 00:54:11.579
Yep.

1219
00:54:11.639 --> 00:54:12.659
End on home.

1220
00:54:12.719 --> 00:54:16.679
Well, I think, like, either that's the last act, or it's the tag.

1221
00:54:16.739 --> 00:54:18.599
I think that might be the tag.

1222
00:54:19.079 --> 00:54:23.820
It's very convenient that the traitor amongst the gal sex is the

1223
00:54:23.820 --> 00:54:24.360
one who dies.

1224
00:54:24.420 --> 00:54:26.699
Oh, yeah, he has to die.

1225
00:54:26.760 --> 00:54:30.179
Yeah, but it's always that convenient thing that it saves the

1226
00:54:30.179 --> 00:54:31.860
others having to wonder what they're going to do with someone

1227
00:54:31.860 --> 00:54:32.880
who's betrayed.

1228
00:54:32.940 --> 00:54:33.360
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1229
00:54:33.360 --> 00:54:35.940
No, he saves the doctor and then dies in the process.

1230
00:54:36.000 --> 00:54:37.199
Yeah, exactly.

1231
00:54:37.260 --> 00:54:38.519
That's kind of his redemption.

1232
00:54:38.579 --> 00:54:40.860
And the other thing we haven't talked about was, of course, the

1233
00:54:40.860 --> 00:54:43.980
new Terry Walsh as Dr. Zake.

1234
00:54:44.039 --> 00:54:47.820
Well, as Zay, so that he can then, not so that he can then he's

1235
00:54:47.820 --> 00:54:52.920
conveniently there, die so that he can then be... all that Zake

1236
00:54:52.920 --> 00:54:53.940
does is fall off a cliff.

1237
00:54:54.000 --> 00:54:55.980
I mean, like, you know, hiring an actor for that.

1238
00:54:56.219 --> 00:55:01.079
No, but the point is that isn't it so funny that because we know

1239
00:55:01.079 --> 00:55:05.699
the whole collarbone thing story is that is that you just can't

1240
00:55:05.699 --> 00:55:10.380
help but not see when he's actually got a broken collarbone.

1241
00:55:10.440 --> 00:55:13.500
And when it's not, when he's just kind of standing there slightly

1242
00:55:13.500 --> 00:55:15.179
immobile in his enormous coat.

1243
00:55:15.239 --> 00:55:18.539
Thank God, they thought to bring the enormous coach.

1244
00:55:18.599 --> 00:55:21.539
Someone had to drive back to London, yes.

1245
00:55:21.599 --> 00:55:26.699
And I do like how when he is playing the doctor.

1246
00:55:28.619 --> 00:55:32.820
As the stunt double, he's holding his body in the same ways, Tom

1247
00:55:32.820 --> 00:55:34.440
with the broken collar.

1248
00:55:34.500 --> 00:55:35.699
I think that's very generous.

1249
00:55:36.719 --> 00:55:41.039
They've even wrapped the same way, and he's holding his arm that

1250
00:55:41.039 --> 00:55:41.219
way.

1251
00:55:41.280 --> 00:55:42.599
I don't say it.

1252
00:55:42.780 --> 00:55:45.780
But if you do, Terry Walsh.

1253
00:55:45.840 --> 00:55:47.760
Maybe it's just because he's trying to hide his face.

1254
00:55:47.820 --> 00:55:50.460
I think the my problem with Terry Walsh, whether he's playing John

1255
00:55:50.460 --> 00:55:52.980
Pertwee or Tom Baker, is that he just looks like some kind of

1256
00:55:52.980 --> 00:55:55.800
buffy guy going down to the pub for have a fight with someone.

1257
00:55:55.860 --> 00:55:56.760
You know, from behind.

1258
00:55:56.820 --> 00:56:00.480
He just has that whole banner of movement that he's like, this is

1259
00:56:00.480 --> 00:56:02.039
not a time lord for the planet Galafre.

1260
00:56:02.099 --> 00:56:08.280
So you do see him like fully face on in Monster of Paladon, which

1261
00:56:08.280 --> 00:56:08.940
you've forgotten.

1262
00:56:09.000 --> 00:56:11.219
Like, he's very, very...

1263
00:56:11.340 --> 00:56:12.420
As him, always.

1264
00:56:12.480 --> 00:56:13.079
Oh, really?

1265
00:56:13.139 --> 00:56:14.039
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1266
00:56:14.099 --> 00:56:17.519
Evidently, you know, monster pedalon for some reason keeps

1267
00:56:17.519 --> 00:56:18.659
disappearing from my memory.

1268
00:56:18.719 --> 00:56:22.619
But, um, the, uh, sorry, James.

1269
00:56:22.619 --> 00:56:27.059
No, I was going to say you almost see him face on in this as

1270
00:56:27.059 --> 00:56:27.239
well.

1271
00:56:27.300 --> 00:56:28.260
Jumps onto the rock.

1272
00:56:28.320 --> 00:56:29.340
Yeah, very briefly, yeah.

1273
00:56:29.400 --> 00:56:30.360
Yes, yes, you do.

1274
00:56:30.420 --> 00:56:32.699
But also, that's what I was going to say.

1275
00:56:32.760 --> 00:56:36.960
But also, it's obviously must have been shot basically kind of in

1276
00:56:36.960 --> 00:56:39.360
order, or at least the fight sequence was done on the last day

1277
00:56:39.360 --> 00:56:40.800
because it's not like any of the other stuff.

1278
00:56:40.860 --> 00:56:42.420
He's obviously got a broken collar.

1279
00:56:42.480 --> 00:56:43.380
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1280
00:56:43.440 --> 00:56:45.119
Yeah, maybe it is the I don't know.

1281
00:56:45.179 --> 00:56:48.360
I don't know if we know about like how long it took to shoot and

1282
00:56:48.360 --> 00:56:48.599
stuff.

1283
00:56:48.659 --> 00:56:49.500
No, I can't.

1284
00:56:49.500 --> 00:56:50.280
It'll all be there.

1285
00:56:50.340 --> 00:56:52.619
Yeah, I didn't brush up on my archive.

1286
00:56:52.739 --> 00:56:54.059
Andrew Pixie archive before coming.

1287
00:56:54.119 --> 00:56:58.800
It's about a week, I think, on the production notes, on the DVD.

1288
00:56:58.860 --> 00:57:00.480
I think about a week. their week.

1289
00:57:00.539 --> 00:57:00.719
Yeah.

1290
00:57:00.840 --> 00:57:02.579
I suppose this of all stories.

1291
00:57:02.579 --> 00:57:05.820
He breaks his collarbone quite late in the day, doesn't he?

1292
00:57:05.880 --> 00:57:07.679
Like, it's like on the 3rd or 4th day.

1293
00:57:07.739 --> 00:57:09.239
It's on day one.

1294
00:57:09.300 --> 00:57:10.500
Well, to when they're doing the fight sequence.

1295
00:57:10.559 --> 00:57:14.699
It's when he's rescued Sarah. from the torture device and then he

1296
00:57:14.699 --> 00:57:17.219
turns around and angrily rushes at Steyer.

1297
00:57:17.280 --> 00:57:22.739
He slips on the wet grass and Oh, does he?

1298
00:57:22.800 --> 00:57:23.460
Oh, I see.

1299
00:57:23.519 --> 00:57:26.039
I thought it was actually the, um, I thought it was actually...

1300
00:57:26.099 --> 00:57:26.519
What the line?

1301
00:57:26.579 --> 00:57:28.800
you abomination or something.

1302
00:57:28.860 --> 00:57:30.239
Yeah, like he says something.

1303
00:57:30.300 --> 00:57:34.260
By the time, dude, the crew already, he'd broken his neck because

1304
00:57:34.260 --> 00:57:37.860
he was just kind of lying there like a really horrible colour, like

1305
00:57:37.860 --> 00:57:42.659
a deathly pallor. and yeah, it talks about some DVD. like the new

1306
00:57:42.659 --> 00:57:42.960
doctor.

1307
00:57:43.019 --> 00:57:46.679
Yeah, Hinchcliffe walking over from the OB van thinking, yeah, yeah

1308
00:57:49.199 --> 00:57:51.599
like, I've killed my leaving man.

1309
00:57:52.739 --> 00:57:56.699
They all seem to have horrible injuries, so in the new series

1310
00:57:56.699 --> 00:57:57.239
anyway.

1311
00:57:57.300 --> 00:57:58.500
Paldi's knees.

1312
00:57:58.559 --> 00:58:00.659
All his knees, tenants back.

1313
00:58:01.800 --> 00:58:03.840
Anyway, the thing.

1314
00:58:03.960 --> 00:58:05.400
All right.

1315
00:58:05.460 --> 00:58:06.300
Well, that was fun, I think.

1316
00:58:06.360 --> 00:58:07.019
What do you think?

1317
00:58:07.139 --> 00:58:07.380
Awesome.