Exaggerated Military People

Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to 500 year diary. The only Doctor Who podcast with little resistance to immersion in liquids. I'm Nathan. I'm James. Hi, Mark. And I'm Simon. It's the 22nd of February, 1975. It's been just over a year since Kevin Lindsay removed his Santaran helmet, and tonight the 11000000 people who've tuned in. We'll get to see him do it again. But can a comic foil for the dog to thrive in this year's new darker version of the show? Let's find out as we discuss the Santarin experiment. So, we are on location in, where are we? Dartmoor, is it? I think it is Dartmore. It's very bleak and very cold. Do you think it's cold? It looks freezing. And wet. And wet. And we're on videotape. How do you feel about that? Very strange. I mean, we all kind of grew up in an era where outside things looked like they were on film and inside things looked like they were on videotape because we consumed so much BBC material. I don't know what I thought back in the day. Did I think it looked different or not? Did anyone else when they were a kid? the house always looks so... the way the inside of the house looks in focus on the outside. has a bit of a shake to it, you know? It's not the 1st story that shot entirely on videotape because robot is shot entirely on videotape. Yeah, that was so that they could do a better job than they'd done with the dinosaurs the previous year of getting the giant robot CSO'd against the background. They thought that it would be better if it was videotape on video tape rather than kind of videotape monsters hovering uncertainly against a sort of film background. But I mean, doing it OB in this way, in this era, as I understand it would have been a massive undertaking because this is the way they filmed, you know, sports things. I mean, they'd have massive. have to be trucks and huge vans and things, whereas film was so much easier because you just have a tripod and a film camera and a sound recorder. Is that right? My understanding is that there is a new set of cameras involved. So there is a technological innovation. And I think too, that it's possible that that enables us to have the two-part story as well. Well, the two-part story effectively is the location block of the what would have been a six-part arc in space. Yes, yeah. is essentially what it is. It's kind of like what JNT later does in seasons 24 through 26. Yeah We'll talk about that, I think, probably later on. due course. Yeah, yeah. I mean, the upside of it is that we're outside for a change, and I am a big fan of that, I think, I think Doctor Who is eventually better out of the studio and just generally better out of the studio. But unlike a lot of the other out of the studio things, whether they're on film or video. There are very, very few props here. You've got, okay, you've got the Centaurin ship. You've got the strange, stupid, crappy robot thing. You've got the Gaztax costumes and the sphere and the balls. But other than that, they're not casting a great deal of stuff. They're not building sets. I mean, the Santaran sphere thing is probably the most elaborate thing, isn't it? Yeah, and they had that lying around, presumably. I mean, they brought it by truck and sort of stuck it up on those put together again because it'll be crumpled. I think the advantage of that being outside is if you're a kid in the playground the next day, you can. It's the sort of games that you would play with your mates would be that sort of running around and hiding behind rocks and, you know, kind of capturing each other and that kind of thing. So there's a lot there with, like you say, without a lot of props or special effects, you could just recreate as a kid. And they also use the location as a danger as well. So both Harry and the doctor falling down that pit, or crevasse or whatever it is, it's used as part of the story. Yeah. Yeah, the danger isn't just the Santaran. It's the location as well. It's kind of like a bit of an indoor boy as well. You think, well, yeah, that's like, that's a good reason not to go outside. And then there's all the background story stuff that you know as well that Tom Baker cracked his collarbone while he was making it and everyone was like really miserable and cold and uncomfortable throughout the whole thing as well. So it creates an inhospitable environment, I think, as well as the alien danger. I think too, just the sort of giant vistas and things. You know, it's a little bit like Jody's 1st series when they go to South Africa and all of a sudden you can see off into the distance for a change. And it's not something the Doctor Who gets to do very much. And here I think it is really effective. It is actually much different from anything else that we've ever seen. Yeah, it's not a quarry. It's not a lush green field, sort of forest. I mean, maybe the people who made time flight could have learnt something from this. Yeah, no, it is. I mean, it is sort of surprising. I have a feeling, though, that although, you know, we've got a pit to fall down and stuff like that. Part of the problem with the production is that it's a little bit light on actual incident. There's a lot of falling into holes and sort of clambering out of holes. There's kind of wandering from place to place and running into people. It is an example of one of those stories where, and for reasons which I might touch on later, because it didn't always get repeated in Australia with the regular repeat run. But it's not just that I often feel even with this time having watched it. I sort of, 5 minutes afterwards, I kind of struggle to explain what I've just watched in terms of what's happened. It's not a great deal. It's just a bit of stuff. And maybe that's okay. Maybe for 2 weeks we can we can tolerate that. There's certainly a lot of incident in all of the rest of the stories this season. But there is a very definite change of pace, isn't there? There's a lot of kind of wandering around the location which is watchable in a way that just wandering around television centre one. Or an abandoned hospital. Yes, your patient time. And so as usual, we have an end of part one monster reveal, and that's something that we've already been revealed in the opening credits. Yes. Well, yes. No, that's true. Bad me, HS insin, yeah. Yeah, yeah. See also, you know, death to the Daleks and everything since then. Genesis of the Daleks. Revenge of the Cyberman. Yeah, yeah. They're yet to come, admittedly, but yes, they have been revealed. I wonder how much recognition the Santarian name would have had at this point, though, because they're not in the title of the Time Warrior. And, you know, would people remember the name links more? I mean, obviously we can't, we can't know at that point. But I wonder how many people would recognise the face, but not the name of the Sun Tyrans, having seen them a year earlier? I think that the monster revealed at the end of the episode is like a tradition for a reason. And you've only got one cliffhanger. And so I guess that's why you do it here. We talked about the monster reveal in Dalek Invasion of Earth which obviously doesn't have Daleks in the title, despite what it says on our Blu-ray disc. is kind of revealed by the radio Times cover, though. Yes, I think so. which I believe was that week. You were there waiting for the Daleks to appear. And he had to wait till the very end. They made you watch the whole thing. But what they did do was introduce a crappy secondary monster. to kind of while away the time before they turn. Oh, talking about the Roman. Well, both. But also, no, not the slither, because this is later on. I'm talking about the rover man. Oh, sorry. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But we do the same thing in Earthshock. Obviously, we have the secondary... I pretend Cyberman, yes. Yeah, exactly. We have the sort of secondary alien and then the big reveal at the end of part one. It's not that successful, is it? The reveal or the crappy... No, it's a bit, it's a bit wobbly and it's a bit crappy, but having said that, I think the direction is such that it hides it as best it can. And so I think, you know, it's okay. There are far worse sins, for goodness sake. No, no, no, that's fair. There's some directors that would have shown the base of it and shown it moving along and they always avoid that. They always have some foliage or something, don't they, covering the base of it. So it could be flying for all we know, I suppose, which would be quite cool. I mean, they'd have to put something in the dialogue to say there's a flying robot move around, but it's at least they make that effort to not show you that it's run along on wheels. And it is like, I think they probably want to get away from that it being a man in a costume as well. And it does, you know, it does get away from that. And I think the ropes are the kind of the metallic kind of manacles, whatever that come out of it. They do look pretty good and they use that sports action replay thing, didn't they, to create that effect. I think when the robot is dragging like 3 men along, you can sort of, and they're acting in such a way that they're being compelled along. I think that does work pretty well, actually, that they're selling it to some extent. How did it get around? I mean, presumably there aren't sort of cracks for it. They did put tracks down. Right, right. They'd have to take on that heather. That's why I shot from blow. Is it one of those things that they built this wonderful thing took it on location and then realised that it couldn't move more than a few centimetres? So it also has the distinction of being the source of the sound that I use on 500-year diary and now Flight through Entirety to bleep any swear words that turn up. Then there's a problem with the story. Isn't there? Because we don't see Stire until halfway through the thing. I mean, if it was in the modern era, the star would be revealed you know, just before the opening credits of a modern episode. And I don't want to get on my hobby horse now about how long Doctor Who Story should be in the 21st century. But I think this is yet another example, and in total, there are one, two, three, four, five, 6 of them, that I think demonstrate that classic Doctor Who, I think, is rarely successful as a two passer, because the whole way stories are built in the classic era means that whether it's the monster reveal at the end of part one or whether it's just the pace that things can happen and the fact that, you know, you need to have a certain pattern because you can only afford so many sets and so many casts and so on and so on. You just end up with a somewhat unsatisfying story. And, you know, I like the Awakening and I like Kings Demons and I even like Black Orchid, Brendan. But, but, I mean, and the rescue does its thing because it's kind of just introducing Vicky and the episodes run into each other so extortive, okay, and age of destruction. But fundamentally, you just don't get satisfied with the story because not enough can possibly happen. In fact, I think maybe the rescue is the best one because it has a very limited remit. It is just there. It's not a full-on adventure or anything like that. It's just there to introduce Vicky. And so it knows exactly how much to put in. The others tend to have an episode one and then an episode 4 and then we're done and that's part of the problem. Well, I, maybe, I worry that they have an episode one and an episode two, and just as they're about to get interesting, it stops. I mean, I won't belabour the point. And I know, Nathan, you're not a fan of the expression of if only it was longer, it'd be so much better. But if I can, if I can observe, and I know we're not talking about these stories now, and I don't, I don't know what you do to some entire experiment per se, but in the case of, say, um, kings demons, imagine what kings demons could be like if you have episode one basically as it is. And then when comedians revealed in episode two, then the master at the sort of the 3 quarter market, that episode whisks comedian off, and they head to London, and everyone has to go to London where we get to meet the real King John, and there's a kind of a doppelganger thing, and it all, you know, with comedian. But the point is, you would get to the end of the story and even if at the end of a four-part king's damage, you'd think, well, that was pretty terrible. I think it would make a more meaningful Doctor Who story. And I think that's what happens here. The rescue... One of the things about the King's Demons is, though, it's over quite quickly, right? Yes, yes. That's strong point. No, there's much I like about things. My point is, you need more stuff to happen. You need more escape recapture escape recapture in a classic story for it to feel like you've actually had an adventure. I think it's why I kind of have the opinion that 3 is the perfect length, in fact, because it doesn't sort of wear me out. We don't have to lock the doctor up for a whole episode. You know, there's we have enough... we'll talk about that to be getting on with. Yeah. And I mean, it's the same problem with black orchid, isn't it? You get the actual murder happen halfway through the whodunit. you know, and then everything else is sort of really kind of horribly rushed. Here, I think they're not tempted to try and cram too much in. That's not the problem. There might, in fact, be not quite enough to fill the 2nd episode. Well, I think it's that problem. I mean, you're restricted by the fact that you're all in location and this specific location. You've got a certain set of characters. I mean, what else can you possibly do? The only way this story is expanded into more episodes is if they then go somewhere else, like, for instance, go back to Nerva Beacon, spend more time torturing Sarah Jane. It's much better, Sarah Jane torture later. As it is, the doctor gets knocked out twice in the 1st episode doesn't it? That's quite a lot in 25 minutes. So, I'm a massive fan of The Time Warrior. And I wasn't as a kid, but I really, really like it. It's Bob Holmes, obviously. I think maybe it was Sandra who 1st pointed out that the doctor faces another alien scientific advisor to a military organisation. And so the great thing about links is that he's a bit like the doctor, you know, he's helping out this group of people whom he regards as more primitive than he. And and links is funny. That script is funny. David Dacre is funny and it links is kind of hilarious. Even the helmet reveal at the end of episode one, where it's revealed that he's got a big round helmet and there's a big round hair under it, like it's always a tongue. Like all of that's actually properly funny. And then the whole thing is silly. You know, we're making stink bombs and all of that. It's very light and very funny. We make fun of Sarah, all of that. Like, I think it's a really great story. It's light. I wouldn't say funny. say it's witty. It treats itself seriously even though there are amusing things going on. It's charming. It's charming. It's more than charming. I think it's great It's got something for everybody. I do think I think homes, because famously homes didn't want to write something said in the past. Oh, really? And so he just made absolutely no attempt to find out when it might be set. You know, anything about that. It's like it's set in mediaeval land. Yeah, you know, it's Merry Island. See, Sarah Jane's right. Yeah. It's a big, you know, Renaissance fair kind of thing. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so like that's really fun. and then suddenly here we are. And this is really... very dry. Yeah, very dry. I love the time worry as well. And I saw it a long time before the Santarian experiment, I think and it was, you know, a kid. What, do you watch things over and over again? So that that kind of set, I think the Santarans, for me, in my mind. And like you say, it is hilarious and the whole idea that Robert Holmes had, or wouldn't it be funnier for, like you say, an alien lifted his helmet off and his head was exactly the same shape. Links is hilarious. When he says to iron grown, oh, you've got a binary reproduction system, it's very inefficient, you should change it. That old stuff is really, really funny. And I think this is why I don't really get the criticisms in the modern era that sometimes when people say, oh, they've just been turned into a joke, that, you know, they're not scary anymore they're not funny, I think, but their origins were, that they were they were exaggerated military people to the point of, of, of comicness. But I think maybe the people that were more familiar with the same town experiment who were around that age think, no, they're very serious, scary, they're torturers and everything else, and they want that model more. And it's interesting. The behind the scenes, this, you talk about how Robert Holmes gave loads of information to Baker and Martin about the Centaurans and talked all about the history and the culture and how they reproduce and everything, but the thing that he doesn't seem to have mentioned to them is, oh, and they are hilarious as well. You know, they, uh, they say stupid things and and and it's really funny. So that's the big thing that's lost, I think. I'm not sure. Like, links isn't stupid, though, is he? I mean, I guess, you know, there's that hilarious moment where he plants the flag in mediaeval England and it's like a stupid big flag, the extra flags come out. Like, so yes, there is, you know, there is that sort of comic stuff at his expense. But mostly he's fairly straightforward. We do get much sillier, Sontarin's stike and vaal. The next time that they're written by Bob Holmes. They're preposterous. They're different preposterous. Look, I think that the Stike and Vall ones are still, they can't look, it's like the, it's like the classic Disney thing where Disney films are, the good, the best Disney films are made so that the kids laugh and are frightened by the villains and all that sort of stuff. But the parents have all of these jokes throughout that they to experience. And I think what Robert Holmes does in the time war and in the 2 doctors is exactly the same thing. The kids are, oh, isn't that scariest on Tara. Despite the stupid flag thing and all this stuff, he talks about reproductive genders and that sort of stuff. It was Sarah Jane's breast. Exactly. Exactly. Whereas that goes completely over the head of kids who find him a frightening, vile looking monster, whereas the parents who are watching with the chick kid goes, my God, this is hilarious. Yeah, and not to mention the field marshal's breasts as well. Most of the best Doctor Who does that Disney thing. But for that to work, it needs to be played straight, even though it's funny. Do you know what I mean? And that's why Time Warrior, and for me, 2 doctors work very, very well with that sort of underlying humour, even though darkly comics. Exactly. Yeah. So what do we think about the tone of this one then? It is pretty bleak to match the weather. I think it's actually too bleak. It's very dry, and you don't get the lightness that you do get in arc in space, and certainly your range of the sidemen, and Genesis even, there are lighter touches with the doctor. I think whilst the doctor has some funny moments. The whole thing just feels much more depressing. See, I thought you were just talking about his makeup. It's very dry. Toms. No. No star. The mask is just... Looks like papier mache. So let's talk about the mask. Kevin Lindsay had panic attacks, I think. Is that right? In the mask or at least found it really, really constricting and unpleasant to wear. And so they make a lighter mask. Making it completely different to virtually every other mask that Doctor Who actors have been told. That's right. That's right. Don't the only sidemen get screwed into the game? I think they're even being screwed in in the 1980s, actually. So there's that. And it's clearly not. We talked, we talked in the moon base about whether the cyberman had been redesigned or not, or whether we were supposed to understand that they always looked like they did in the moon base and we're going to forget how they looked in the 10th planet. Here, we're encouraged to feel the same way because Sarah just assumes that that's links and says in dialogue that they look identical and Styer confirms that, yes, you know, we're alike, but not the same, we are identical, we're clones. And the mask is. Remember that Edmund Warwick looked exactly like, you know, the robot doctor looked exactly like the doctor in the chase. It kind of, I mean, 10th planet and Moonbase is a little bit different. And yes, I agree. We were just supposed to think that this is what the Sidemen of Warriors looked like, and I think that's the way the Sidemen have always been all the way through. Polly recognises them, of course. Exactly, exactly. But you've changed your opinion. any of that. And in fact, that's the kind of kind of television that I sort of prefer. Like in the modern era, because of, you know, they expect people to have seen them again or in different orders or whatever, they have to come up with some kind of in universe reason as to why they look different. In fact, it's Moffat that does that more than Russell. So Russell sets a look for the monsters and just goes with it. Takes the approach that they've always looked like that. Whereas Moffatt minds the history of the show. I'm not just talking about Doctor Who. I'm talking about like everything like, I mean, one of my favourite lines in whichever Star Trek episode it was where... Well, where they show the old Klingons. Yeah, yeah. Golf just says we don't like to talk about that. Because Star Trek is one of those things that did take that kind of thing very seriously in terms of this is the way it looks. You know, how, you know, it's practically that style on this thing of they'd have to have retouch all the old photos. consistent. Anyway, point being though, it doesn't matter how different the mask looks within reason. It's supposed to look the same, so it looks the same. Okay? We just, we'll all believe it if we say it often enough. And that's what you would have done as a child. You haven't seen it. I didn't know where the time war was repeated in the UK, but even here, if you're watching, we're watching a kind of a run of repeats stripped 4 nights away, it's still a couple of months between 3 months between the 2 stories. And, you know, it's only in the discussion about this story and now that we're talking about how different the mask is, that's made me realise how different the mask is, because I'd never really thought about it. So he is wearing the same outfit, literally the same outfit, is it? Oh, is it? And Sarah could just be racist and think they all look the same. Exactly. That's correct for the era. So there are problems with there's problems with the original mask apart from how uncomfortable it was to wear. And one problem is that you have rubber over Lindsay's top lip which is sometimes kind of painfully apparent. And so he has difficulty delivering his dialogue. And you've got the thing where his lower lip is exposed. not covered in the latex mask and it's got the hair on it as well. But the great thing about that mask is that it is slimy or sweaty. But do you know what I mean? It glistens slightly and so it looks more like flesh than what we get here. It's maybe just been spritzed before each tape. Yes, I think that that's what's happening. And so it looks a little bit more kind of organic and real. This one has the same sort of thing, which is he seems to have sort of interior and exterior lips. So the mask has lips and he has lips and his lips makes the other lips move, but then... Do you know what I mean? Like, it's much better. It's significantly worse. The same problem occurs in the 2 doctors with Styke and V. But also, um, in the visitation with the Terreleptils, they have the same problem as well. With the sort of flapping out, flappy mouth. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's just evidently stuck onto somebody's chest. His chin. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that looks okay. I think the more it looks like a person's lips. Do you know what I mean? Because it's a big lizard head. We can kind of cope with that with the tarot lamp tools. And certainly Styke and Varl have the same problem. And I think that the problem is really only solved in the new series when they come back because you have the latex that can stick very closely onto the actor's skin because here and like the Santarians generally have problems around the eyes as well. You know, like the rubber, like is not really great. And remember that when they do Davros in the next story, he doesn't have eyes, so the problem's solved and they do that thing where they let the contours of his sort of chin define the part of the makeup that's not hidden by the mask. And in fact, Davros is, I think, as a kind of monster makeup job kind of the, well, maybe the Draconians. Do you know what I mean? But, but allowing the mouth, you know, perch, you're saying the thing you see the actor's eyes and... Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, having just had the seeds of death last week. I mean, basically having a monster whose voice comes out at the same rate as its lips move is, I think, an achievement. Some of what we saw there. And you know, yeah, that thing of using the music, however, it's obscured by like a funky moustache or whatever else it is. I mean, even right up to the cryons in attack of the sidemen you've got the kind of the crystalline moustaches on those ladies. On those ladies hiding, hiding the break between the mask and the mouth. But you just sort of accept that, I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's why I think, you know, like the modern series manages to... Yeah, that's 40 years... 40 years of technology and budget improvement. Yes, exactly. So what do we think about the gal sex and they're mainly South African accents? I think, again, this is one of those Doctor Who stories where everyone's a man except for Liz, which is kind of tedious. And everyone kind of looks roughly the same. I'm astounded by how rough poor old Glyn Jones looks. He looks like he's in desperate need of good night's sleep. Hairbrush. Yeah, yeah, but they all need a good sort of hairbrush and stuff. I mean, there's something about that whole sort of setup, which I actually really like, and we'll get onto it because I think we might talk a little bit more broadly about the season. But we're in the same time period, we're just a little bit, you know, we're just a few 1000 miles away or 1000000s of miles away from where we were. Yeah, yeah, with virus. She's still up there waiting for us to sort of come back. And so hearing more about the earth and all of that, I think, is kind of interesting. And you remember she talked about some of the colonies being full of regressives or whatever. That's clearly these people. Well, obviously. They don't talk posh, you know, the way that Byron. No, I do. Hasn't gone to a real university. went to a polytechnic. Exactly. That helps with the contrast, I think, though. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's that thing that, remember, things are coded throughout this era, not just Doctor Who, just through everything in that different accents imply different things about you, whether you're educated or not, whether you're rich or not, or whether you're nice or not. And I don't know when does when do we start throwing sanctions on South Africa? Uh, is it, has it happened by 1975 or, is that yet to come? They'll have the 80s. I mean, it was being talked about, but it's a question of how aggressively. So it is nevertheless a good way to sort of imply that these people are, you know, not as sophisticated as the space station would just come from, where everything's, you know, gleaming white nice tunics and everything's colour coded on the lapels and so on. Well, in fact, they have a kind of beef about the people on nerva that they haven't helped. They've been lying there asleep doing nothing. We've been struggling and we've built an empire and they haven't done anything. And so there is a kind of, you know, almost class-like resentment there. So I guess giving them those accents is actually pretty good. And I think maybe they would have been reluctant to just give regional or working class accents to spacemen in Doctor Who in 1975. And so they went for South African accents instead. Well, it makes it a bit that little bit more exotic. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And the rationale behind it was that they just thought that the language would have changed and pronunciation was that was Bob Baker and Dave Martin's. rationale, I think. Oh, it actually comes from them. Wow, okay. Yeah, that they wanted. You know, like when they did that emergency exit thing. Is it the invisible enemy where it's spelt phonetically? So it's kind of an interest of theirs anyway, and they thought that, I think, because South African, the accent comes from a mixture of English and German and Dutch and things like that. Yeah. It's kind of a bit of a melting pot of different accents than they thought that, you know, over time that's that's how things would progress. And then they put in the, you understand and kind of shortening of words and things like that to suggest it. I suppose while still making it understandable for the audience. So I think it works like that. But it is a nice change not to have RPI. Yeah, there's some slang and stuff like that. Yeah, going bush, which just sounded like Australian slang to me but he's going bush, and it did mean he's gone crazy. Post from the Vietnam War, I think, yeah. Ah, yeah, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's enough sort of world building there. I mean, they're just basically aware to give someone to torture, I guess, but there's sort of enough world building there, I think. And it does seem satisfying. But we are in a situation that's impossible to imagine 2 years ago. Like, it's impossible. Meaning in season 10. Yeah, well, I just can't imagine someone like torturing Joe Grant. Do you know what I mean? Like doing that to her. Now, here it's a kind of sort of, it's sort of a space torturer and staff, but it's a problem in Doctor Who, I think, which is that as the performances get a little bit better, I think that there's a problem with, I don't want to watch prolonged scenes of the character's terrified or suffering. Well, not prolonged because in the same way that I don't enjoy prolonged sequences of action because it does get dull because there's no dialogue. So... But I think there's something like actively unpleasant. I find it like I just find it actively unpleasant. We've talked. I, you know, at length about Perry, for instance, on flight 3 entirety, and just how part of the problem with Caves of Andrazani is she's too credibly scared. And that it's sort of unpleasant. And here I think like you can't torture Joe, right? Because it's not something that we do, but we do torture Sarah, and it's a big feature of this season. But this story, which is just about someone who tortures people to death. She's not tortured, but she goes through some pretty horrific kinds of things. Genesis being thrown off the gantry. you know, like she's tormented, I suppose, walking. I mean, look, you may find it distressing. I found it absolutely gripping and exciting as a child and still do as an adult. And going back to that peri thing in case Van Design, I think that it is so good because she is so good and it's so truthful. It's just brilliant. It's a fantastic performance. So, look, if you don't like watching that sort of thing. That's fine, but I just think that it's outstanding. I don't have a problem with the alleged torture of Sarah throughout the Hinchcliffe era. She, I mean, obviously she's literally being tortured in this story for that sequence. As you said, it's kind of space torture because it's kind of a mental thing that should be put through. It's the guys that are being physically tortured. She's kind of being mentally tortured. Yeah, yeah. But that's the theme of the story. I mean, everyone's getting tortured. Yeah, I know, but then you just wonder whether that's the story that we do. There's a really, really terrible feeling. I don't think. You know, if I would have been in charge, this story wouldn't have happened. It's that it's, you know, there's a very quick succession in which Harry comes across what he thinks is the dead body of the doctor and the dead body of Sarah and then the dead body of the prisoner who's died of thirst, like just in quick succession and you kind of think, I'm not having as much fun here. I really think I should be having while watching documentaries. But interestingly, I'm not invested. I'm not invested in the same way because maybe because it's just not long enough. I hate to say, or maybe because it's just, there's just not enough other interesting things going on. I mean, there's great world building, as we've said, and it's fascinating and I think it's really well done and all the rest of it, but I just need more something, more stuff. But look, I think the performances do add credibility to what you're doing because the good thing is it doesn't seem stupid because everyone's actually doing a really good job. Yeah, yeah. So nothing seems silly. Yeah, yeah. You know, list slating can sell the mental torture thing very, very well, whereas perhaps some other companions might have struggled. Yes, I did like the inflatable rubber snake. Yeah, more of which in a few weeks time. Good thing she was selling it well because the snake didn't. It was all right. So we talked a little bit about the Santarans as a Doctor Who monster generally. Are they up there? Are they number three after the... See, for me, as a child, and even as an adult, the Zygons, I think would be above this on Tyres, even though we only had the tear of the Zygons, is it? But I mean, as kind of something that we can pull out of the toy box and put on the screen every so often. I mean, we do have how many more Sontaran stories after this? In the classic year, just two. Two more. Age of time and 2 doctors. And 2 doctors, yeah. And in both. They're kind of add-ons. And I don't necessarily, well, maybe I do mean it in a bad way, in the invasion of time. But in 2 doctors, they're secondary to the main villains who are Cecini, who's the same. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I see, so I think from that point of view, they do work as, and I think that's going back to the time warrior as well, one of the reasons the time warriors is good. Even though, yes, he is the alien and the villain. In some respects, he's secondary to iron gron. Yeah. And I think maybe the Santarians work better in that format. I mean, if you're talking about monsters to pull out of the draw. I mean, in some respects, we had the ice Warriors for a little bit. And now we've got the Santarans for a little bit. So you could say that they kind of segue into each other to fulfil well, I mean, a comparable role. I mean, all Doctor Who villain monsters like that feel the same role, really. Yeah, they're both quite a martial race, aren't they? I suppose that's the... That's military. that the similarities, they've got kind of cords of honour and that kind of thing. And I suppose you have the boss got 4 appearances as well. I guess the thing about them is their pomposity, you know, that that's that kind of is what's funny. And that's what we go for. I think when we bring them back in that two-parter in series four which I actually remember much more fondly than I thought of it at the time. And their fun there. And of course, you've got Christopher Ryan as our kind of hero Santara, and that. And of course, Dan Starkey, who will go on to be a semi-regular character and in that Moffatt world where he literally is pulling his action figures kind of out of the box, isn't he? And he said, we're having a Silurian and we're having, you know we're not having a Santarian story in the Moffat era, but we will have a Santarian character. and perhaps the best Santarian character, I think. Lynx is great. But Strax is fantastic. And even though he sort of goes on for a sort of long period of time. You know, he's being written by someone who is a sitcom writer. And so he can actually do kind of proper jokes and stuff. And I had long thought that that had kind of finished the Sontarus as a possible Doctor Who monster. And then we get the, and then we get... Yeah, which they are properly good, I think. I think they are too. And, I mean, you know, the whole premise of War of the Santarans where it's the Crimean War, but no one's ever heard of the Russians we're fighting the Santarans. He's absolute genius. Like it's really terribly good. I can't remember how it all fists together. Maybe I'm not supposed to. I think the 21st century criticism of what they did, quote unquote did to the Swansharians is the fact that I started finding them annoying at times when I felt that they were leaning just too heavily in on being just kind of Doctor Who Klingons in terms of the militaristic stuff and the honour and all that sort of thing. It was almost like there were too many lines directly lifted from various Star Treks. And I think that's that's certainly what annoyed me about it. Do you know, that's how I feel about the Ice Warriors in the new series, actually. It's very similar. very, very similar thing. I feel it's like, I don't feel we're being original here. I feel that the show is now leaning, trying to, and it's not borrowing from Star Trek or doing a prestigious Star Trek. just ripping it off. that's not the same thing. Or just kind of doing the obvious thing. It's almost like... Obviously, that's it, what it is. Yeah, yeah. That what it is. I agree. I love Strax as well. And his, and I know people get a bit tired of it, but I love it. The whole thing that whatever the situation or the problem is, his is a weapons-based solution or a military solution is grenades and things like that, no matter what domestic chore it is or anything. Yeah, I constantly find that hilarious. Yeah. It's interesting things that are in their origins that get left behind. So time travel is never a thing for them again after the, you know the original, sorry, being the time warrior. They're not a big kind of time faring race, again. They don't use robots again after this, which I guess is understandable because the robot's not popular. Only the core of them remains and the stuff around them changes quite a lot, doesn't it? I'd never thought about that, but they're actually trying to get time travel in the 2 doctors. So how does that fit in with the Time Warrior? Well, there is a difference, I suppose, you could argue with a control time travel versus being able to nick a big head scientist from seven, 800 years in the future, maybe, somewhat inaccurately as well. Yeah. If I can just mention the Australian experience, at least the Australian experience for people of my vintage, as we all know as good Doctor Who fans, this story is shot before Arc in Space, yet meant to be shown afterwards. And a number of times when the ABC showed it, as was their want they would show things in story code order rather than, oh, wow. So for instance, we got Mark of the Rani after 2 doctors, which works perfectly fine. Yeah, yeah. They only swapped it because they didn't want the two historical characters next to each other. Is that the same problem that we get with the Sylvester McCoy? Well, again, one could argue that with season 25, it's the UK that showed it in the wrong order. No, no, no, because there's the badge on Ace. that she doesn't get until Greater Show, which they show at the end, but she's already wearing it in the silver nemesis. And of course, that's just because it all gets delayed because of the Olympics. And J&T wanted Sylvan Nemesis to be on the anniversary. So the UK actually shows season 25 in the wrong order. But we get quite often in those repeats of the 625 line pertwees we get carnival of monsters shown before 3 doctors because carnival's monsters is made before 3 doctors, et cetera. So the 1st time I saw Santarian experiment. It made no sense. Well, I'm trying to remember because I came in at Planet of the Smiters 2 on one of those repeat runs. And so entire experiment therefore becomes the 10th and 11th episodes of Doctor Who that I've ever seen. Oh, wow, okay. And yet, I have absolutely no memory of being confused by what's going on here, like anything about it just, it just kind of on. And it's extraordinary to think that I watched planned of the Spiders robots and Suntarian experiment and yet persevere with the show as my introduction. Because obviously it's sort of all uphill from there. But basically that happens a couple of times. And so the 1st 2 times I saw on Tyron Experiment, it was before Arc and Space. They get it right later. But interesting also what happens is that Santana experiment is kind of like a bit of a missing story for me because there are several repeat runs that the ABC does where they just skip it entirely. Wow. Because... They're showing 4 episodes. They're showing 4 episodes a week. But for some reason, the other combinations of stuff, you know they need it to finish on a Thursday, because it was usually Monday to Thursday, um, and they needed tear of the Zygons 4 to finish the run or whatever it was. And it was so often during the 2nd 4th. Or Marx, the Mandragore before, was where they often ended too. That's why I have a very odd relationship with this story is I sort of mainly never short saw it in the right spot. And even when I did, I kind of forgot it immediately anyway, except for one thing, and that is Styles melting head at the end, which was one of those Doctor Who visions, sort of memories, which stuck with me for years and years and years, and it was probably one of those things that then sometime experiment wasn't shown for a while, and so then I was kind of waiting to see that moment, and I couldn't remember where it was, and so on, like, kind of like remembering, I remembered the multiple Mona Lisa's from City of Death, without trying to work out where it fit in with Doctor Who because there was no novelisation. So I didn't even know where where the hell did he even see main leases? Anyway. I mean, that's a reasonable special effect, isn't it? It's great. It's not Kane. No. And it's not the heat. I would argue it's actually better than Kane, because Kane looks like it's a stop motion or a sped up bit of film where they've melted a thing, whereas this looks like a real stop. Well, it's done in camera, isn't it? It's just a balloon kind of deflating. I think it looks absolutely great. And it's very Wizard of Oz. It's sort of, you know, I think it's for a kid, for a kid, it's very effective as to why they're destroying the elemy. especially because then you see the whole suit is deflated as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It is pretty clever. The novelisation has quite a bit of Harry going through the endless, the tunnels and stuff. Well, yeah, I know, but it's him writing about here. It's him, right? Good on Ian, yes, well done. He needs to make that much more heroic. And that's actually with Ian just going back to the fact that, of course, there's a shot before. fucking space. Harry's character is much more, much more old-fashioned because he does actually soften throughout the season. He's kind of even softens during arc and space. I mean, he talks about giving her brandy at the beginning. Then he kind of softens, modernises a bit. Whereas he seems to have leapt back to where he was in robot, for some time experiment. Call her old thing. Exactly all the old things stuff, which she objects to, et cetera et cetera. And of course, because it shot first. He's wonderful, isn't he? Oh, he's fantastic. I love I love this TARDIS combination. Dr. Sarah and Harry for me. Maybe it's just because that's what I got basically straight away from my 1st watching at the show, but I just think it works so well, the 3 of them. I mean, as an adult, I object to the Hinchcliffe era in some ways because I think it is actually too violent and too nasty and a bit too relentless. But like season 12 is like just this polished perfect thing, isn't it? It's amazing. It's so amazing. It really is good. It makes such a big change to Doctor Who. Robot is so different a show from revenge of the cyberman. And those 3 together are just so great. And you kind of forget how often Sarah's off running her own plot. And it's the doctor and Harry together. Although you often got Joe running her own plot. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I mean, when you have 3 characters. you know what I mean? Like Sarah's often, it's the boys who are kind of together. But that's why I think 2 companion things, so the 3 regulars actually works really well. I do like the single companion, but I've always had a big soft spot for the 2 companions and I think you get it in season 12 probably the most perfectly. As you suggest, in Ark in Space, in Genesis of the Daleks, you get the doctor in Harry doing the thing while Sarah basically gets to have her, not so much B plot, but her sort of A2 plot. You know, it's acting as a co-lead. And so the Harry is kind of the doctor's companion for those bits. And likewise, in revenge of the side, and they're all doing their own bits and pieces. And then Sarah and Harry get being down. Which is what? and do their stuff and it's so intelligent and interesting and there is so much depth and thought. I feel put into how these characters are relating to the environments that they're in much more beyond the superficial which you do start to get later in the series and you had earlier as well. But I think that they really care about what would these characters think if they were suddenly on the space station in the 30 something century. Oh, sorry, 1000s of years, Harry. Yes. And the whole tone of the season, too, is the season and the era is just so, it just epitomises for me, Doctor, at its most successful. It's the way as I should have touched on before, everyone's treating it seriously, that doesn't mean that there aren't funny moments and doesn't mean that there aren't lighter moments and funny lines and all the rest of it. But everyone from the directors to the writers to the actors, to the costume people, the stunt people, they're all treating it absolutely seriously. And that's how you get good, Doctor Who. giving it their all. Like they're all really committed. I think it also shows the breadth of what Doctor Who can do as well in a way. It's in some ways, it's similar to a modern Doctor Who season. It does a temporary story, it does. You know, it has outer space stories. It has, you know, future stories. Like it kind of shows the gamut of what you can do. Yeah, especially if you put Terror of the Zygons on as... which kind of is supposed to be. I mean, it sort of belongs in both seasons for me. I know robot is kind of a pertly leftover in a season of shot with season 11. But even if you include it from, you know, Robot through Terror of the Zygons, there is a difference. And you can see in season 11 how much the show has started to tire. And I'm very fond of a lot of season 11, which time war is great. Death of the Daleks is great. There are some of the dinosaurs. No, I like it. but even despite the fact that it's all wonderful and enjoyable. There is something about a sense. I don't know whether it's just because we know that the year is coming to an end or not. I don't think it's that. I just think there is a sense that things are beginning to tire out in terms of the format that we're using needs to be shaken up. Let's not talk about it. It's Monster of Paladon, isn't it? But again, I can't remember much about Monstra Belladon. I haven't watched such waiting for the season 11 box yet. Yeah, it is a terrific season. I think you can see why they chose it as the 1st one to release in the Blu-ray collection set in terms of if there are, you know, kind of new series viewers that hadn't seen the classic series. It's a great one. Before everything was available on the iPlayer, you know, this in the UK. This is a great one to get fans into the classic series because you've got a lot of recognisable monsters that they'll know from the modern series. And yeah, and it's quite transitional, isn't it? Because Barry Letts is still working on it and on some tone experiment. He was still around and stuff. And like you say, robot to tear the Zigons. kind of it's kind of bookended with 2 unit stories, but they've changed loads in that time, the tone of it and the characters and everything. And then they kind of leave all that behind as they go into season 13. Just to expand on what you're saying there, Mark, about this is what, you know, new viewers might come into. We're often asked, you know, if you had to show someone a classic story. What would it be? It's not the entire experiment. But it is so much of this era. You can so easily show them something like I can space or Genesis of the Darks or tear up the Zygons or much of the rest of the Hinchcliffe era and not be concerned about how poorly it might have aged from a production standards point of view. We can say other things about the fact that there are very few women in it, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But in terms of from what it looks like and what it feels like and how it seriously it's treated, it treats itself. You can't go past most of these stories in order to attract a new audience into the classic show. I mean, I think the pertoy era under Letts is pretty strong absolutely. And it's not this at all. And it is a thing, I think, that, like, I'm not someone who thinks that the Hinchcliffe era is the core of what Doctor Who should be. And I do think that the Lets era is super important at defining that as well as sort of other later eras as well. But what strikes me is so strange as we go from like a story that has a mad scientist with massive puffy hair and like this sort of absurd performance and stuff and you've got the robot, which is sort of cheesy as hell and stuff. And then the next story, the aliens are going to eat you alive and steal your memories. The story after that, they're going to torture you to death. Do you know what I mean? Like you basically for fun, just basically to see... Yeah, yeah, yeah. It makes you tick. No, I'm just testing the compressibility of the human chest. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like all of that stuff is so, it's so amazing. such a weird change in tone. And I get, like, I kind of get some of the backlash. I sort of understand it and it's telling, I think, that the new series has never really gone too far in that direction. And it has gone in that direction from time to time, but never sort of consistently in the way that the Hinggliffear it does. All with the confidence that it's the right thing to do. Standards have changed in terms of what you would do. You know, you wouldn't, there is a reason why the repeat of Deadly Assassin 3 has the doctor's head suspended under the water shortened, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's because they realise even at the time, that's probably a bit much. And things were definitely a bit more graphic in that era and they become more graphic in a different way in the 80s. Yeah. But just because of the way the universe is. But I didn't realise that Doctor Who was a ongoing thing until the leisure hive, because like watching the Brady Bunch repeats, you just assumed, I just assumed in my bizarre brain that I had when I was 8 years old, that it was a finite thing and you just watched it and, you know, everything was finite. Everything had a beginning and middle and end, right? And then when the leisure hive comes on, I go, oh, my God, they're still making this. This is new. This is actually new. Even though I had seen season 17 on its 1st transmission. I didn't know that's what it was. Once that happens and I enjoy, I enjoy season 18 and I enjoy season 19 and all the rest of it. But there is something about at the end of time flight. And next week, we went back to Robots. I was home. Do you know what I mean? And they do it again after season 20 and when, you know, and when they kept going back to do the repeats of this era, particularly the Hinchcliffe era. And yes, these were the 1st episodes I watched. Does that happen something to do with it? quite possibly. But nevertheless, even though I was seeing them on repeats for the third, fourth, fifth, sixth, 7th time and reading the novelisations, this is home. Well, that's all the time we had for this week. We'll be back next week for a deep dive into the dark places of the inside as we await the return of the Mara in Snake Dance. In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts and you can keep up with us on our website, 500yearDiary.com, where you'll find our social media links as well as links to all of our other podcasts, including our other Doctor Who podcasts, flight through entirety, and the 2nd great and bountiful Human Empire. Until next time, remember to keep a piece of synastic locking mechanism on your person at all times for luck. Thank you very much for listening and good night. Ta-ta. Goodbye. I'm melting. That was 500 year diary, starring Nathan Bottomley, Mark McManus Simon Moore and James Selwood. The theme was composed by Cameron Lamb. This episode, exaggerated military people, was recorded on the 12th of April 2025 and released on the 18th of May. And if you want to hear our breathless spoilerific take on this week's Doctor Who episode, the interstellar song contest, head on over to greatandbountiful.com on Monday and subscribe in your podcatcher of choice. We'll see you there. What do you think? Yep. End on home. Well, I think, like, either that's the last act, or it's the tag. I think that might be the tag. It's very convenient that the traitor amongst the gal sex is the one who dies. Oh, yeah, he has to die. Yeah, but it's always that convenient thing that it saves the others having to wonder what they're going to do with someone who's betrayed. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, he saves the doctor and then dies in the process. Yeah, exactly. That's kind of his redemption. And the other thing we haven't talked about was, of course, the new Terry Walsh as Dr. Zake. Well, as Zay, so that he can then, not so that he can then he's conveniently there, die so that he can then be... all that Zake does is fall off a cliff. I mean, like, you know, hiring an actor for that. No, but the point is that isn't it so funny that because we know the whole collarbone thing story is that is that you just can't help but not see when he's actually got a broken collarbone. And when it's not, when he's just kind of standing there slightly immobile in his enormous coat. Thank God, they thought to bring the enormous coach. Someone had to drive back to London, yes. And I do like how when he is playing the doctor. As the stunt double, he's holding his body in the same ways, Tom with the broken collar. I think that's very generous. They've even wrapped the same way, and he's holding his arm that way. I don't say it. But if you do, Terry Walsh. Maybe it's just because he's trying to hide his face. I think the my problem with Terry Walsh, whether he's playing John Pertwee or Tom Baker, is that he just looks like some kind of buffy guy going down to the pub for have a fight with someone. You know, from behind. He just has that whole banner of movement that he's like, this is not a time lord for the planet Galafre. So you do see him like fully face on in Monster of Paladon, which you've forgotten. Like, he's very, very... As him, always. Oh, really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Evidently, you know, monster pedalon for some reason keeps disappearing from my memory. But, um, the, uh, sorry, James. No, I was going to say you almost see him face on in this as well. Jumps onto the rock. Yeah, very briefly, yeah. Yes, yes, you do. But also, that's what I was going to say. But also, it's obviously must have been shot basically kind of in order, or at least the fight sequence was done on the last day because it's not like any of the other stuff. He's obviously got a broken collar. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, maybe it is the I don't know. I don't know if we know about like how long it took to shoot and stuff. No, I can't. It'll all be there. Yeah, I didn't brush up on my archive. Andrew Pixie archive before coming. It's about a week, I think, on the production notes, on the DVD. I think about a week. their week. Yeah. I suppose this of all stories. He breaks his collarbone quite late in the day, doesn't he? Like, it's like on the 3rd or 4th day. It's on day one. Well, to when they're doing the fight sequence. It's when he's rescued Sarah. from the torture device and then he turns around and angrily rushes at Steyer. He slips on the wet grass and Oh, does he? Oh, I see. I thought it was actually the, um, I thought it was actually... What the line? you abomination or something. Yeah, like he says something. By the time, dude, the crew already, he'd broken his neck because he was just kind of lying there like a really horrible colour, like a deathly pallor. and yeah, it talks about some DVD. like the new doctor. Yeah, Hinchcliffe walking over from the OB van thinking, yeah, yeah like, I've killed my leaving man. They all seem to have horrible injuries, so in the new series anyway. Paldi's knees. All his knees, tenants back. Anyway, the thing. All right. Well, that was fun, I think. What do you think? Awesome.