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This transcript was created on 2026-05-03 at 08:40:27

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to 500 Year Diary, the only

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Doctor Who podcast broadcasting from over 250 kilometres away from

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the nearest T-Mat reception centre.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Jeremy.

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I'm pizza, and I'm Simon.

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It's the 25th of January 1969.

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It's been just over a year since the doctor 1st met the ice

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warriors and tonight 66000000 people have tuned in to see him do

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it again.

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But can this story turn a one off race of sequined fibreglass

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Martian warrior lizards into an exciting new mortal enemy for the

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doctor?

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Let's find out as we discuss the seeds of death.

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Before we really get going, when I watched this last night, it was

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substantially better visually than the moon base was.

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We have a much better copy.

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Well, for start, Moonbase is 405 line and um, so you'd get a 625

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line.

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I don't know whether we have the negatives of this story.

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I don't think we do.

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No, I don't think we do. which would always help.

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Episode 5 is a 35 mil print.

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He's not pristine prints returned from the BFI as well.

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Oh, they may have been, yes, but I think the BF5 names.

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Anyway, that kind of details are a discussion for a different kind

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of podcast, I think. don't know.

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But I actually thought, I saw your, I saw your comment about that

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and I wondered whether, uh, because the thing that struck me is

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how huge everything seemed.

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Everything feels quite large to set, but it is still studio D at

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lime growth.

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Both of them are shot in the same studio.

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Um, I think it's the direction.

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The director is just so much better at creating space.

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Maurice Barry, I think is a good jobbing director.

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He covers everything.

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It's all sort of quite tight, whereas I think you've got a lot

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more imagination from Michael Ferguson here, and it really makes

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it incredibly punchy.

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Yeah, Michael Ferguson is the absolute MVP of this story.

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We've talked about before that the director is the indispensable

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person, the sole indispensable person on a doctor who production

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and he just proves that because I think the script, we'll talk

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about this later, is sluggish and quite childish.

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But what Michael Ferguson brings to it.

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He's fantastic visual storytelling.

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There's lots of big close-ups and focus pools.

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There are point of view shots.

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I don't know if this is the 1st time we've had a point of view

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shot from the point of view of the enemy entering the base. one of

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the Daleks, I do.

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Oh, up on the points.

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Simon, I stand, correct?

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You've just, I want your fan card back now.

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I can't have my fan card.

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I earned it.

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And there's also, you know, it's sustained for long periods as

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well in the storytelling.

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He shoots through things and around things, issues.

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High establishing shots of that corner of the studio where they

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keep ambushing ice warriors with the 2 laser things.

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Oh, that's such a great shot.

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It's so nice And then low shots as well.

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There's a shot early on, like in episode 2 where he shooting

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fuchsion from a low angle.

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It's the 1st shuttle of scene between the legs of the ice warriors

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and it just, it makes the sets look huge.

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To do that, though, everyone's obviously hitting their mark in a

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way that going back to what we were talking about 2 episodes ago

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in a way that people weren't hitting their marks in something like

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Darlic Invasions of Earth.

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And so that allows you to have those kind of compositions and it

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is all stagey and contrived the way kind of everyone moves around

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each other and stands and someone's in the background and

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someone's in the foreground and people is one of those things

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where people aren't talking directly at each other.

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It's like, you know, turn around so I can hear you.

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But that all increases it.

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And I love all of the, the, the shots direct camera, especially

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during the spaceship launch.

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Yeah, he does so much stuff that's really incredible. like um

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quick cutting, which is something that they weren't still, they

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were still experimenting in.

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So lots of quick, which is odd for the for the studio stuff.

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I love the choice he makes to shoot ice warriors in close-up and

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not to do as many full body shots of them or if he's going to do a

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full body shot.

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Like you say, he's doing it from low or high to make them look

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bigger or smaller and more imposing.

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And so you get less of the stuff that happens in the ice warriors

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cereal where they're just kind of standing there, you know, looking

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like a guy in a costume, right?

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And so all these shots and the print is beautiful of like the ice

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lord's face and you see how really quite good the makeup is, like

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they, their lips and stuff can really move.

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Um, and then the location work when he gets into film, like, I

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love, he shot chasing with, like, one hallway, Patrick Chowton

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running through the moon base, the, and he inserts stuff he shot

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on film with the mirrors and the, and the reflective surfaces to

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make that space look much, much bigger and, like, they have way

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more than one corridor.

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Yeah, Tony, what could be a really boring corridor sequence

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inside?

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really dynamic.

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It's so exciting.

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And then, especially the late story location work with the ice

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warrior kind of rampaging over the countryside with all the

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sunlight and everything.

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Ferguson, unfortunately, I think didn't direct enough.

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Like, he should have been directing that show into the 80s because

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he really just knows what pace is and knows how to open up a story

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in a way that's difficult to do.

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That shot that you just mentioned with the Ice Warrior with the

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sunlight behind it is the same shot that he will then use in the

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ambassadors of Dad.

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Yeah, the clause of Axis.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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I think, frankly, it's Douglas Canfield level direction.

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Absolutely.

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He only does the 4 stories.

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The war machines is the other one, but I also think it's no

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coincidence that he was very young.

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He's only 30 when he shoots this story.

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And so he's got a huge career ahead of him.

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He's a dynamic director on both single camera on location and

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multicam in the studio and that is the gold for Doctor Who, someone

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who can pull off the location work and the studio work on

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multicam.

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It's rarer than you'd think.

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And what he does is he works within the system.

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He pushes the boundaries without breaking them.

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We talked a couple of weeks ago about Richard Martin.

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He pushes the boundaries, he breaks it.

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It doesn't work.

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This works beautifully in the same way that Douglas Canfield's

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direction on the web of fear does.

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And also, I have to say, Derek Martinez.

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I think he does direct the Ice Warriors very well, but what

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Michael Ferguson is just a more dynamic director.

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He's always moving the cameras.

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So that scene in episode one, where the regulars leave the Tartars

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and then wander into Eldred's Museum, the camera goes with them

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all the way into the set.

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It would have been very easy for that not to work, but he's just

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got control of his studio.

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Well, same with all the tunnel stuff, too.

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I always love tunnel stuff.

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Like they've got that part where they're hiding behind a wall

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that's like right next to the scene where all the bad guys are and

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it kind of doesn't work.

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But here, they really, he really oversaw with the set designer, the

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design of the set.

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So there's that wonderful part where Phipps and Zoe are trying to

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sneak in through that great that's on the floor.

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So they built the rost, like he's basically taken advantage of the

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rostrum and built the little gateway right where they can crouch

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in and come in.

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So it gives a sense of dimensionality to the space.

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It's not just another room that's got a wall.

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It feels like a tunnel.

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So it's really well done.

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It's, I was blown away this time watching it, how, how good the

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direction was.

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It's really just the MVP of the of the show.

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And speaking of that, this I do have right, Simon.

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This is the 1st instance of someone using maintenance shafts to

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get covertly from place to place.

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I would have sworn.

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Tearingly should introduce that, but no.

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He does use it later.

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But it's interesting.

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The other thing, I mean, Nathan, you commented that how much

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better this looks than the moonbase, which is, you know, obviously

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the previous episode in this podcast series.

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For me, when I 1st saw Seeds of Death, it was, you know, the

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omnibus on the VHS, which I bought at great expense, at some point

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and our only other experience of trouting stories had been mind

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robbing crotons.

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As you say, of course, their only experience had been the repeat

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of the crotons.

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So basically what I was stunned by.

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I mean, I almost did, especially because of the expense, I almost

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didn't buy it because I was so disappointed by how primitive those

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stories felt and how, I mean, I love the crotons now, but how dull

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it seemed and how cheap and old-fashioned.

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The seeds of death is only one story after an extra...

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No it's the next story after the coffee.

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Because it's me.

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I have to have it in my family.

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I'll take it.

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It's next.

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I have lifetime days.

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The enormous leap between the crotons in this is just stunning.

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We talked a little bit about this last week, about the way that

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the quality of productions just sort of goes up and down.

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There's an overall trend, but from week to week, things, you know

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some things are just extraordinarily brilliant and some things are

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kind of less so.

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Yeah.

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We also talked about the fact there's never really a definitive

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point.

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Things happen in fits and bursts.

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So yes, this is a massive step up from the crotons, but the

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crotons was a massive step down from the invasion.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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It's a thing about this story.

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I just want to touch on what Simon was saying there about the

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video release.

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This is an important story in the narrative of Doctor Who on Home

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Video because not only was it the 1st black and white and Trouton

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story released in 1985.

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It was also one of the 1st black and white releases on DVD. in

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2003.

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I think what came before it was Tomas Sidemen and the Aztecs.

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Yes, but that's because they never got round to re-releasing it on

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video episodic format, which they had done to many of the other

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ones that they released only as omnibuses.

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That's right Omnibi.

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It was.

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No.

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Omnipus.

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It was a revelation. when it came out on DVD because comparing it

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to that very washed out video release taken from a terrible

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print.

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Suddenly you had contrast and you had the motion and the clarity

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was restored to the studio sequences because it was the 1st

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edition to be vid fired, that process.

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Yep.

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And it totally changed my idea of what 60s Doctor Who must have

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looked like when it was transmitted.

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But the great thing about that omnibus VHS release was because the

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quality of each of the episodes was so different.

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So you knew where the edit in the episode was.

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And the jump, like literally, because episode one was really bad.

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And then, of course, you know, by the time you get to episode five

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which is a 35 mil print, it's pristine.

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It was extraordinary that release.

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I interviewed Michael Ferguson.

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Of course I did.

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In Klang.

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She dropped this.

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What can I say on ubiquitous?

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In 1998, Sansfield, and immediately just knew that you were in the

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company of someone who had a really far-ranging and correct view

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of Doctor Who for him.

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It was just kind of, you know, something that he did and it was

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weekly television, but he just knew how to approach it and how to

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create magic within those limitations.

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And I think it's no surprise that he went on.

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00:12:17.759 --> 00:12:21.899
A lot of people who worked on Doctor Who sort of peaked in sort of

252
00:12:21.899 --> 00:12:23.639
a 10 year period and then were never heard of again.

253
00:12:23.820 --> 00:12:28.919
Michael Ferguson went on to have a long and storied history in

254
00:12:28.919 --> 00:12:29.460
television.

255
00:12:29.519 --> 00:12:33.000
The key things he went onto was sort of one off dramas and series

256
00:12:33.000 --> 00:12:34.740
in sort of the 1970s and 80s.

257
00:12:34.799 --> 00:12:40.860
But then he became producer of a series of high volume quality

258
00:12:40.860 --> 00:12:46.919
soap, like casualty, and the bill, and EastEnders, which played

259
00:12:46.919 --> 00:12:52.200
perfectly to his skill set because he knew how to turn out good

260
00:12:52.200 --> 00:12:55.919
material under the limitations that were placed on him.

261
00:12:55.980 --> 00:12:57.779
And I think that's so evident here.

262
00:12:57.840 --> 00:13:02.580
This is clearly just Doctor Who that is made extremely well with

263
00:13:02.580 --> 00:13:03.659
what they've got.

264
00:13:03.779 --> 00:13:04.320
Yes.

265
00:13:04.379 --> 00:13:06.779
He goes on and does ambassadors after this.

266
00:13:06.840 --> 00:13:07.259
Right.

267
00:13:07.320 --> 00:13:10.379
And I know ambassadors is not a story that is highly rated by mini

268
00:13:10.379 --> 00:13:13.080
but I think one of the reasons I love it so much is because it's

269
00:13:13.080 --> 00:13:15.360
directed by Michael Ferguson, because it's got punch.

270
00:13:15.419 --> 00:13:19.019
And the clause of Axos clearly would have been a much worse story

271
00:13:19.019 --> 00:13:20.820
without his mature flair.

272
00:13:21.419 --> 00:13:24.720
Just because I'll never get to say this because I won't be on the

273
00:13:24.720 --> 00:13:27.840
ambassador's one, but when John Pertis, you know, says with all

274
00:13:27.840 --> 00:13:30.480
that intensity and that urgency, cut it open, you know, and

275
00:13:30.480 --> 00:13:34.019
there's that great cliffhanger about just cutting it an astronaut

276
00:13:34.019 --> 00:13:35.159
out of a spaceship, right?

277
00:13:35.220 --> 00:13:38.039
And there really hasn't been much that's happened weirdly enough

278
00:13:38.039 --> 00:13:42.120
but he puts so much just vim and energy into it.

279
00:13:42.179 --> 00:13:43.139
It just works perfectly.

280
00:13:43.200 --> 00:13:44.580
Exactly.

281
00:13:44.639 --> 00:13:47.759
And one of the things that people like to critique about classic

282
00:13:47.759 --> 00:13:50.580
Doctor Who particularly, including, I think, the people who have

283
00:13:50.580 --> 00:13:54.779
made it in the 21st century, is the whole thing, they deride it as

284
00:13:54.779 --> 00:13:56.700
talking urgently in corridors.

285
00:13:56.700 --> 00:13:59.820
No, that is why it's brilliant.

286
00:13:59.879 --> 00:14:01.860
And that's what you've got an awful lot of here.

287
00:14:01.919 --> 00:14:04.919
You've got heightened performances that are all basically on the

288
00:14:04.919 --> 00:14:07.259
same level and that's the director doing that in the rehearsals.

289
00:14:07.320 --> 00:14:09.840
They're making sure that everyone's on the same page and they are

290
00:14:09.840 --> 00:14:13.379
talking, talking with urgency and they're, they're following up

291
00:14:13.379 --> 00:14:16.440
each line with another line and they're, and even if it's just, you

292
00:14:16.440 --> 00:14:19.200
know, oh my god, someone dropped a tissue over there, it heightens

293
00:14:19.200 --> 00:14:21.480
the excitement level and that's like your cut it open thing.

294
00:14:21.539 --> 00:14:22.259
It's urgent.

295
00:14:22.320 --> 00:14:25.860
There's something at stake. something to do with the cutting as

296
00:14:25.860 --> 00:14:26.100
well.

297
00:14:26.159 --> 00:14:28.740
Like you're talking about Jeremy there. like that cliffhanger and

298
00:14:28.740 --> 00:14:30.779
ambassadors cuts at exactly the right moment.

299
00:14:30.840 --> 00:14:34.440
Here, I mean, if you go back to the Dalek extermination effects

300
00:14:34.440 --> 00:14:37.559
under Richard Martin and something like the chase, you cut away to

301
00:14:37.559 --> 00:14:41.279
a language shot and then it takes 2 seconds for the studio footage

302
00:14:41.279 --> 00:14:44.159
to turn -and then you linger too long on the shot.

303
00:14:44.220 --> 00:14:46.559
Whereas here, what you have is the wide shot.

304
00:14:46.620 --> 00:14:49.500
You have the big close-up of the person in terror that they're

305
00:14:49.500 --> 00:14:50.279
about to be blasted.

306
00:14:50.279 --> 00:14:53.879
And then a very quick shot of the Mirlon, which is the reflective

307
00:14:53.879 --> 00:14:57.179
surface, which they're using to do the ice horror effect, and a

308
00:14:57.179 --> 00:14:59.460
burst of the sound effect, and then straight back out to the

309
00:14:59.460 --> 00:14:59.820
scene.

310
00:14:59.879 --> 00:15:00.299
Exactly.

311
00:15:00.360 --> 00:15:03.480
It stuns me that they were able to do that, you know, with the

312
00:15:03.480 --> 00:15:04.919
same vision mixing technology.

313
00:15:04.980 --> 00:15:08.100
You know, this is not has not been put together shot by shot.

314
00:15:08.220 --> 00:15:10.620
This is all someone operating vision mixer, isn't it?

315
00:15:10.679 --> 00:15:12.000
Mostly, yeah.

316
00:15:12.059 --> 00:15:16.019
And I also think he cuts in an interesting way, like in lesser

317
00:15:16.019 --> 00:15:19.080
things they say, kill him, and then it's like a super like you

318
00:15:19.080 --> 00:15:20.580
were saying, Simon, a super long time.

319
00:15:20.639 --> 00:15:24.299
But like here, he makes the iceware seem really scary because the

320
00:15:24.299 --> 00:15:27.120
Lord comes in in the beginning when the 2 workers are in this moon

321
00:15:27.120 --> 00:15:30.600
base and he says, kill them, and they are dead in seconds, right?

322
00:15:30.659 --> 00:15:32.580
And then there's just fuchsium standing there.

323
00:15:32.639 --> 00:15:37.139
He takes all the air out of everything, which, as a directoral

324
00:15:37.139 --> 00:15:39.779
choice, always makes everything have more impact.

325
00:15:39.840 --> 00:15:43.440
And so, yeah, he decilifies it in a way. like he takes the silly

326
00:15:43.440 --> 00:15:43.919
out of it.

327
00:15:44.100 --> 00:15:45.899
And why?

328
00:15:45.960 --> 00:15:47.279
Why is it so hard?

329
00:15:47.340 --> 00:15:50.879
Why does he do it when others can't in the, you know, going back

330
00:15:50.879 --> 00:15:52.919
to the previously mentioned crotons?

331
00:15:52.980 --> 00:15:55.559
You know, there are sequences where, and Crotons is by a good

332
00:15:55.559 --> 00:15:55.860
director.

333
00:15:55.919 --> 00:15:57.059
Or previous worth later on?

334
00:15:57.120 --> 00:16:00.419
There are sequences where actors are waiting to be cued for like

335
00:16:00.419 --> 00:16:03.480
half a 2nd before they like, before, you know, Jamie's standing at

336
00:16:03.480 --> 00:16:07.320
the top of a set of stairs and then has to suddenly urgently start

337
00:16:07.320 --> 00:16:08.220
moving down the stairs.

338
00:16:08.279 --> 00:16:10.860
It's like it just is sloppy in comparison.

339
00:16:10.919 --> 00:16:12.299
I mean, it could be something to do.

340
00:16:12.299 --> 00:16:13.620
Less time in the BBC bar.

341
00:16:13.679 --> 00:16:15.960
Yeah, I think that could well be.

342
00:16:16.080 --> 00:16:17.159
Could well be have something to do.

343
00:16:17.220 --> 00:16:20.460
But I mean, these are things that can just go well or go badly on

344
00:16:20.460 --> 00:16:23.279
a particular day and you have a bit less control.

345
00:16:23.399 --> 00:16:24.600
Absolutely.

346
00:16:24.659 --> 00:16:26.460
But I, it surely.

347
00:16:26.519 --> 00:16:29.759
It's not, you know, that that shot I mentioned of Jamie.

348
00:16:29.820 --> 00:16:31.860
It's not the only incident in the crater.

349
00:16:31.919 --> 00:16:34.799
Yes, and it's no coincidence that Douglas Canfield and Michael

350
00:16:34.799 --> 00:16:36.419
Ferguson always have good days.

351
00:16:36.419 --> 00:16:39.179
Yeah. usually has a bad day.

352
00:16:39.299 --> 00:16:40.320
That's not a coincidence.

353
00:16:40.379 --> 00:16:45.120
It's not just because, you know, there was a virus going around or

354
00:16:45.120 --> 00:16:45.659
something, you know?

355
00:16:45.720 --> 00:16:47.879
It's something about the director being in control of the

356
00:16:47.879 --> 00:16:49.200
production and orchestrating it.

357
00:16:49.259 --> 00:16:52.080
Well, Simon, you talked about all of the performances being on the

358
00:16:52.080 --> 00:16:52.679
same page.

359
00:16:52.740 --> 00:16:55.200
That's the director doing that in rehearsals.

360
00:16:55.259 --> 00:16:57.240
But it's also that everything...

361
00:16:57.299 --> 00:16:58.320
And in their casting choices, probably.

362
00:16:58.379 --> 00:16:58.980
Absolutely.

363
00:16:59.039 --> 00:17:03.120
It's also the director being responsible for all elements of the

364
00:17:03.120 --> 00:17:03.659
production.

365
00:17:03.720 --> 00:17:09.119
So the ice warrior guns, the sound effects work, the vision works

366
00:17:09.119 --> 00:17:11.940
the cutting works, and it's all just a small part of the episode.

367
00:17:12.000 --> 00:17:13.319
It's not a feature piece of the episode.

368
00:17:13.380 --> 00:17:15.240
It's just there for a moment, and then you're moving on to

369
00:17:15.240 --> 00:17:18.599
something else, but it's pulled off tightly, and that's the

370
00:17:18.599 --> 00:17:20.940
director being in control of what he's doing.

371
00:17:21.000 --> 00:17:24.240
He's not in control in the sequence, and I think it's part 2 where

372
00:17:24.240 --> 00:17:27.539
there's a shot in the control room, and someone's obviously

373
00:17:27.539 --> 00:17:30.420
dropped something on the set, and there's a great big clang, and

374
00:17:30.420 --> 00:17:34.740
one of the experts in the background looks across, and it looks

375
00:17:34.740 --> 00:17:35.880
like what they're doing.

376
00:17:35.940 --> 00:17:37.019
It really happened.

377
00:17:37.079 --> 00:17:39.720
Just someone elsewhere in the control room dropping.

378
00:17:39.779 --> 00:17:40.559
But that actually works.

379
00:17:40.619 --> 00:17:42.599
So then actually someone's reacted to something.

380
00:17:42.660 --> 00:17:44.940
And we talked earlier about the visual storytelling.

381
00:17:45.000 --> 00:17:48.420
So it's no surprise that this episode starts with the shot of the

382
00:17:48.420 --> 00:17:52.200
sun, then moving behind the moon and seeing the earth, and every

383
00:17:52.200 --> 00:17:55.259
time in that initial episode that you're changing location.

384
00:17:55.319 --> 00:17:57.960
He does an establishing shot to show you where you are.

385
00:17:58.019 --> 00:17:59.339
He's telling the story.

386
00:17:59.400 --> 00:17:59.579
Exactly.

387
00:17:59.579 --> 00:18:01.019
This control room is now on the moon.

388
00:18:01.079 --> 00:18:03.359
This is remarkably similar control, really.

389
00:18:04.140 --> 00:18:08.099
And the soundtrack, the soundtrack works in tandem.

390
00:18:08.220 --> 00:18:11.220
And that's the other thing that I think, which I responded to when

391
00:18:11.220 --> 00:18:14.460
I saw this back in the late 80s, having just seen cratons in mind

392
00:18:14.460 --> 00:18:17.759
rubber, was the fact that Dudley, much as I think he doesn't get

393
00:18:17.759 --> 00:18:19.440
it right in his very latest stuff.

394
00:18:19.500 --> 00:18:21.420
He is getting it right in this earlier stuff.

395
00:18:21.480 --> 00:18:22.559
Really good, isn't it?

396
00:18:23.279 --> 00:18:26.279
And of course, it's you feel like it's like, you know, it may be

397
00:18:26.279 --> 00:18:28.440
1969, but we've already arrived in the 70s.

398
00:18:28.559 --> 00:18:29.819
Yeah, it's funny.

399
00:18:29.880 --> 00:18:33.720
Dudley kind of settles on, you know, just the a small suite of

400
00:18:33.720 --> 00:18:36.539
instruments that he uses all the time and a particular sound, but

401
00:18:36.539 --> 00:18:37.799
he hasn't done that yet.

402
00:18:37.859 --> 00:18:40.440
And there's a lot of really just sort of percussive stuff.

403
00:18:40.500 --> 00:18:41.819
You know, we talked.

404
00:18:41.880 --> 00:18:45.960
I talked positively about the weird music in Darlic Invasion of

405
00:18:45.960 --> 00:18:47.160
Earth a couple of weeks ago.

406
00:18:47.220 --> 00:18:51.000
But here, I think this is every bit as good as that.

407
00:18:51.059 --> 00:18:52.500
I think the music is really great.

408
00:18:52.559 --> 00:18:55.859
And I actually didn't notice that it was Dudley and I'm surprised

409
00:18:55.859 --> 00:18:56.700
to learn that.

410
00:18:56.759 --> 00:19:00.240
It's actually a very modern score, like next week's score for the

411
00:19:00.240 --> 00:19:01.920
Space Pirates and the war game.

412
00:19:01.980 --> 00:19:06.359
So there's been some kind of, um, some kind of sea change in the

413
00:19:06.359 --> 00:19:09.420
way, um, maybe it's something as simple as he could now score a

414
00:19:09.420 --> 00:19:09.720
screen.

415
00:19:09.779 --> 00:19:10.500
Who knows?

416
00:19:10.559 --> 00:19:12.180
It could be that.

417
00:19:12.240 --> 00:19:16.319
Are aren't, aren't they so like hugely behind at this point.

418
00:19:16.380 --> 00:19:20.400
Like, I wonder if he's scoring the screen because the, Aren't they

419
00:19:20.400 --> 00:19:24.059
just barely ahead of transmission date starting right now or

420
00:19:24.059 --> 00:19:24.240
something?

421
00:19:24.480 --> 00:19:27.000
I don't know, I can't remember. an hour a week ahead at this at

422
00:19:27.000 --> 00:19:27.480
this point.

423
00:19:27.539 --> 00:19:30.839
I mean, maybe it hasn't happened yet because this is still a sweet

424
00:19:30.839 --> 00:19:34.079
of music, which is sort of used interchangeably throughout the

425
00:19:34.079 --> 00:19:36.359
story, whereas it feels like to me, I may be wrong.

426
00:19:36.420 --> 00:19:41.099
I'm just postulating here that Spearhead from Space feels like the

427
00:19:41.099 --> 00:19:42.839
music is scored to the action.

428
00:19:42.900 --> 00:19:46.380
Well, it would be because it's a film. going forward.

429
00:19:46.380 --> 00:19:47.279
But they're going forward.

430
00:19:47.400 --> 00:19:49.079
But then they change, by the time you get to study urins and

431
00:19:49.079 --> 00:19:51.240
they're doing 2 episodes every fortnight rather than one episode a

432
00:19:51.240 --> 00:19:51.900
week, cafe.

433
00:19:52.019 --> 00:19:54.119
So that changes the nature of the program and they're not doing it

434
00:19:54.119 --> 00:19:55.799
as Jeremy, as you're saying, not doing it the week before.

435
00:19:55.859 --> 00:19:59.099
Because I know that a lot of music was fed in, like the sound

436
00:19:59.099 --> 00:20:00.900
effects was fed in live into the recording.

437
00:20:00.960 --> 00:20:03.660
I don't know whether that's still happening here, but it does feel

438
00:20:03.660 --> 00:20:04.680
like we've moved forward.

439
00:20:04.740 --> 00:20:07.259
Can I just go on about the sort of the moving forward thing?

440
00:20:07.319 --> 00:20:12.180
It struck me not just in visual style, but also in storytelling

441
00:20:12.180 --> 00:20:16.319
style, in so many ways, this is a pertly story.

442
00:20:16.380 --> 00:20:18.900
Now, I know people love to talk about web of fear and invasion

443
00:20:18.900 --> 00:20:21.960
being, you know, oh, they're prototype unit stories, and obviously

444
00:20:21.960 --> 00:20:24.059
they are because they've got the brigadier and soldiers and stuff

445
00:20:24.059 --> 00:20:24.359
in it.

446
00:20:24.420 --> 00:20:28.980
That's a kind of a fairly obvious take, which is not wrong.

447
00:20:29.039 --> 00:20:32.819
Whereas I think the invasion is far less similar to a lot of

448
00:20:32.819 --> 00:20:35.039
penalty stories in terms of the way the story is structured, and

449
00:20:35.039 --> 00:20:38.099
but the seat of debt is much more similar to a per story in the

450
00:20:38.099 --> 00:20:39.240
way the story is structured.

451
00:20:39.299 --> 00:20:42.599
You can imagine in an ambassador's their style, reminded evil

452
00:20:42.599 --> 00:20:44.519
style, story structure.

453
00:20:44.579 --> 00:20:47.339
Okay, maybe we're not 100 years in the future, and, you know, the

454
00:20:47.339 --> 00:20:49.619
purple year is supposed to be like 70 quote unquote, not too

455
00:20:49.619 --> 00:20:50.220
distant future.

456
00:20:50.279 --> 00:20:52.980
So rather than going to Mars in their ambassadors of death, maybe

457
00:20:52.980 --> 00:20:57.900
they've developed teleport technology in 1975 or whatever it is.

458
00:20:57.960 --> 00:21:01.740
It's a per- we scientific base rather than a trout and based under

459
00:21:01.740 --> 00:21:02.519
siege.

460
00:21:02.519 --> 00:21:04.619
You should probably imagine the 3rd doctrine, Liz Shaw, turning up

461
00:21:04.619 --> 00:21:06.119
at T-Mac control in Bessie.

462
00:21:06.180 --> 00:21:07.619
Absolutely, yeah.

463
00:21:07.680 --> 00:21:09.960
I mean, it even is just the question of going from place to place

464
00:21:09.960 --> 00:21:10.380
to play.

465
00:21:10.440 --> 00:21:16.019
So, yeah, you know, you've got the museum, you've got T-Mat base

466
00:21:16.019 --> 00:21:19.140
in London, you've got the moon base, and you've got the weather

467
00:21:19.140 --> 00:21:19.920
control centre.

468
00:21:19.980 --> 00:21:20.759
Anybody control setting?

469
00:21:20.819 --> 00:21:21.420
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

470
00:21:21.480 --> 00:21:24.240
And that's, I mean, that sort of very pertu-ish, not at all based

471
00:21:24.240 --> 00:21:24.900
on the beach.

472
00:21:24.960 --> 00:21:25.380
Exactly.

473
00:21:25.440 --> 00:21:28.799
And I think the other thing other than the direction that's being

474
00:21:28.799 --> 00:21:31.799
felt in the back half of this season and in particularly starting

475
00:21:31.799 --> 00:21:34.140
here is who's doing the writing.

476
00:21:34.200 --> 00:21:37.500
So it's credited at Brian Hales, but it's pretty much known that

477
00:21:37.500 --> 00:21:39.119
from episode 3 to 6.

478
00:21:39.180 --> 00:21:43.619
It's a page one rewrite by Terrence Dix, and Terrence Dix, being

479
00:21:43.619 --> 00:21:47.400
one of the great, you know, I mean, as we all know, remarkably

480
00:21:47.400 --> 00:21:52.559
consistent, can take bog standard formulaic plot stuff and he just

481
00:21:52.559 --> 00:21:58.619
knows how to put enough interesting details into it.

482
00:21:58.680 --> 00:22:01.980
And one of the things I noticed this time around is in episodes

483
00:22:01.980 --> 00:22:05.339
one and 2 where our characters that were introduced are fairly

484
00:22:05.339 --> 00:22:08.940
flat, little static.

485
00:22:09.000 --> 00:22:12.539
Commander Ratner feels very much like the commander of the moon

486
00:22:12.539 --> 00:22:16.380
base, whose name I can't even remember. but helps them.

487
00:22:16.440 --> 00:22:20.339
But starting in episode three, everybody starts to get more

488
00:22:20.339 --> 00:22:21.240
interesting.

489
00:22:21.299 --> 00:22:22.859
Kelly becomes more interesting.

490
00:22:22.920 --> 00:22:26.640
Fuchsium becomes way more interesting and becomes like a star

491
00:22:26.640 --> 00:22:27.839
character, this thing.

492
00:22:27.960 --> 00:22:32.579
Even Radner becomes a more compelling character.

493
00:22:32.640 --> 00:22:38.819
And it's just Terrence Sticks doing little tiny moments of unusual

494
00:22:38.819 --> 00:22:39.779
character stuff.

495
00:22:39.839 --> 00:22:41.759
I think it's a great companion story.

496
00:22:41.819 --> 00:22:45.000
At Terrence Dix knows how to make Zoe work, which is really

497
00:22:45.000 --> 00:22:45.359
weird.

498
00:22:45.420 --> 00:22:47.099
He really knows how to use her.

499
00:22:47.160 --> 00:22:48.420
She's great in the story.

500
00:22:48.480 --> 00:22:49.259
Jamie's great.

501
00:22:49.319 --> 00:22:51.720
I mean, they're all, everybody's really much more likeable and

502
00:22:51.720 --> 00:22:52.740
engaging moving on.

503
00:22:52.799 --> 00:22:57.000
And I think that's just his desire to be consistent all

504
00:22:57.000 --> 00:22:57.420
throughout.

505
00:22:57.480 --> 00:23:01.440
I think some of that is there already, though, because I had the

506
00:23:01.440 --> 00:23:05.039
experience of watching the moon base immediately before this, and

507
00:23:05.039 --> 00:23:08.880
I said last week that there's only 2 people to guest characters on

508
00:23:08.880 --> 00:23:12.960
the moon base who have any personality and one personality is in

509
00:23:12.960 --> 00:23:16.259
transigent base commander, and the other one is French.

510
00:23:19.380 --> 00:23:24.539
Here, immediately you've got Miss Kelly, who is a magnificent

511
00:23:24.539 --> 00:23:28.380
character, and we have Harry Taub's character comes in and sort of

512
00:23:28.380 --> 00:23:30.180
banters.

513
00:23:30.240 --> 00:23:34.319
And even though she, he's only in that 1st episode. he's so three

514
00:23:33.059 --> 00:23:34.319
dimensional.

515
00:23:34.380 --> 00:23:37.740
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

516
00:23:37.799 --> 00:23:40.380
There is no interaction between the characters or among the

517
00:23:40.380 --> 00:23:44.519
characters on the moon base to speak of that isn't to do with

518
00:23:44.519 --> 00:23:48.900
telling people to go into the graviton control room or whatever.

519
00:23:48.960 --> 00:23:50.880
Whereas these.

520
00:23:50.940 --> 00:23:52.740
Yeah, this has banter.

521
00:23:52.799 --> 00:23:55.799
It's really fun, you know, like, and was fun immediately from

522
00:23:55.799 --> 00:23:57.240
episode one, I think.

523
00:23:57.299 --> 00:24:01.380
But I think you're right, particularly where you have Jamie and

524
00:24:01.380 --> 00:24:05.160
Zoe as the only regulars involved in episode four, and you don't

525
00:24:05.160 --> 00:24:06.839
really miss the doctor that March.

526
00:24:06.900 --> 00:24:09.119
I think it's pretty good.

527
00:24:09.180 --> 00:24:15.599
And while it does have the stock trout and amazing female guest

528
00:24:15.599 --> 00:24:19.319
character for him to work with in the same vein as Astrid Ferrier

529
00:24:19.319 --> 00:24:20.339
or Anne Travers.

530
00:24:20.400 --> 00:24:22.380
Miss Garrett. absolutely.

531
00:24:22.440 --> 00:24:26.039
That's not at the expense of the companions because all through

532
00:24:26.039 --> 00:24:29.759
Web of Fear, Jamie and Victoria are completely sidelined while the

533
00:24:29.759 --> 00:24:32.279
doctor works with a much more interesting character in and

534
00:24:32.279 --> 00:24:32.819
Travis.

535
00:24:32.880 --> 00:24:35.400
Whereas here, they're not, as you said earlier.

536
00:24:35.400 --> 00:24:37.619
Phips as well becomes...

537
00:24:37.619 --> 00:24:38.579
Phips is really good, yeah.

538
00:24:38.700 --> 00:24:39.599
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

539
00:24:39.660 --> 00:24:40.140
Absolutely.

540
00:24:40.200 --> 00:24:44.940
Just sidebar on the doctor's absence from episode four. when I was

541
00:24:44.940 --> 00:24:46.319
just looking things up about the story.

542
00:24:46.380 --> 00:24:49.980
A bit of trivia is that that is the final time that a regular

543
00:24:49.980 --> 00:24:51.900
member of the cast is not in an episode.

544
00:24:51.960 --> 00:24:53.099
Oh wow, okay.

545
00:24:53.160 --> 00:24:55.440
How about episode 2 of Kinder?

546
00:24:55.980 --> 00:24:57.960
Okay, fair enough.

547
00:24:58.440 --> 00:25:00.960
Handbag.

548
00:25:00.960 --> 00:25:04.980
I blame the site I was reading.

549
00:25:05.279 --> 00:25:10.140
Yeah, I think Terrence Dix really does make a silk purse out of

550
00:25:10.140 --> 00:25:13.259
out of some some dodgy premises in this one.

551
00:25:13.319 --> 00:25:17.099
It kind of reminds you how amazing he could be at just at spinning

552
00:25:17.099 --> 00:25:20.220
plates, at really keeping them all moving.

553
00:25:20.279 --> 00:25:24.539
It's the fact that in that episode where Trouton's not there.

554
00:25:24.599 --> 00:25:27.779
There is a threat to the doctor's life that the others have to

555
00:25:27.779 --> 00:25:28.380
foil.

556
00:25:28.500 --> 00:25:30.839
It's not just we're not going to talk about him for 25 minutes.

557
00:25:30.900 --> 00:25:34.200
He is kind of the focus of that plot.

558
00:25:34.259 --> 00:25:38.220
You know, fusion's being asked to disintegrate him or send him, you

559
00:25:38.220 --> 00:25:40.140
know, teleport him into space and things.

560
00:25:40.200 --> 00:25:44.940
And there is that wonderful idea where they sort of tunnel in the

561
00:25:44.940 --> 00:25:48.420
back of the team that capsule, like, pull his body out.

562
00:25:48.420 --> 00:25:51.660
And Fusion assumes that he's actually killed.

563
00:25:51.720 --> 00:25:53.940
I mean, it's a bit it's a bit of a cheese.

564
00:25:54.240 --> 00:25:56.339
Have you met Dr.?

565
00:25:56.700 --> 00:25:59.700
No, no chief meaning in terms of that's probably where, you know

566
00:25:59.700 --> 00:26:03.960
Michael Ferguson just can't coverage in a way in the studio, which

567
00:26:03.960 --> 00:26:06.359
is going to be convincing of them dragging the body of the doctor

568
00:26:06.359 --> 00:26:08.759
out while fusion's looking away, blah, blah, blah.

569
00:26:08.819 --> 00:26:10.019
So it happens off screen.

570
00:26:10.140 --> 00:26:11.700
Yeah, but it has to, like it kind of works.

571
00:26:11.700 --> 00:26:13.920
We know what they're trying to do.

572
00:26:13.980 --> 00:26:17.460
Yeah, Fuchsia looks at the thing and it's kind of like, oh, they

573
00:26:17.460 --> 00:26:17.940
succeeded.

574
00:26:18.000 --> 00:26:20.160
And that's really when we need to find that out.

575
00:26:20.220 --> 00:26:21.539
I'm having...

576
00:26:21.599 --> 00:26:22.500
Oh, yes, no.

577
00:26:22.799 --> 00:26:26.400
And as ever with Doctor Who, there is always a production reality

578
00:26:26.400 --> 00:26:27.180
behind it.

579
00:26:27.240 --> 00:26:30.720
So, yes, apparently Terrence thought that the last few episodes of

580
00:26:30.720 --> 00:26:33.839
Sea Death were low on incident, which, you know, we know Brian

581
00:26:33.839 --> 00:26:35.519
Haley's often low on incidents.

582
00:26:35.579 --> 00:26:38.039
But what Terry does is turning into a virtue.

583
00:26:38.099 --> 00:26:42.720
So apparently, Fraser Heinz contract was up halfway through the

584
00:26:42.720 --> 00:26:46.259
seeds of death and he was going to leave and be replaced by a new

585
00:26:46.259 --> 00:26:47.460
character called Nick.

586
00:26:47.519 --> 00:26:51.660
Now, when Troughton decided to hand in his notice and encouraged

587
00:26:51.660 --> 00:26:55.380
um, Fraser Heinz to stay on until the end, there was a production

588
00:26:55.380 --> 00:26:59.220
reason that the back half of the story needed to be rewritten by

589
00:26:59.220 --> 00:27:02.700
the story editor. and so Terrence just stepped in and did it.

590
00:27:02.759 --> 00:27:07.380
So all of these things which work out well are often because there

591
00:27:07.380 --> 00:27:09.180
is a real life imperative behind them.

592
00:27:09.240 --> 00:27:12.299
That's one of the things that I always say that I love about

593
00:27:12.299 --> 00:27:16.619
television, you know, that it's not purely, um, television of this

594
00:27:16.619 --> 00:27:16.799
year.

595
00:27:16.859 --> 00:27:21.539
Well, television generally, the real world intervenes, contracts

596
00:27:21.539 --> 00:27:23.880
and actors and production things happen.

597
00:27:23.940 --> 00:27:27.839
And so you don't get to follow your five-year plan, exactly.

598
00:27:27.900 --> 00:27:30.359
Something happens that gets in the way of it.

599
00:27:30.420 --> 00:27:31.559
So it gets pregnant.

600
00:27:32.039 --> 00:27:34.259
Yeah, yeah, it's cancelled at the end of year four.

601
00:27:34.500 --> 00:27:39.359
For instance, someone may buy a very expensive foam machine and

602
00:27:39.359 --> 00:27:44.339
all of a sudden, we need to centre several episodes around having

603
00:27:44.339 --> 00:27:46.799
a very expensive foam machine, which is wonderful.

604
00:27:46.859 --> 00:27:49.259
But then it gets packed up in the cupboard you've never seen

605
00:27:49.259 --> 00:27:49.559
again.

606
00:27:49.619 --> 00:27:52.500
I think maybe it pumps a little bit of foam out of the brain in

607
00:27:52.500 --> 00:27:53.819
mind of evil and that's it.

608
00:27:54.059 --> 00:27:56.339
Maybe it doesn't look as good in colour.

609
00:27:56.400 --> 00:27:58.680
Oh, that could be nice with many.

610
00:27:59.339 --> 00:28:03.180
Yes, the colour of monsters is green, but one's in their story.

611
00:28:03.240 --> 00:28:04.079
Monochrome.

612
00:28:16.140 --> 00:28:18.420
Let's talk a little bit about the Ice Warriors.

613
00:28:18.480 --> 00:28:23.400
I think they are just lamentably terrible.

614
00:28:23.519 --> 00:28:25.380
Oh that's a bit cruel.

615
00:28:25.440 --> 00:28:27.119
No, I don't think it's cruel enough.

616
00:28:27.180 --> 00:28:30.000
So I think there's no premise here at all.

617
00:28:30.059 --> 00:28:32.700
This could have been the cybermen.

618
00:28:32.759 --> 00:28:34.740
It could equally have been the side men this week.

619
00:28:34.799 --> 00:28:36.000
Well, no.

620
00:28:36.000 --> 00:28:37.500
For the 3rd yeti story.

621
00:28:37.559 --> 00:28:40.019
I don't, I don't think the dynamic works with this, because

622
00:28:40.019 --> 00:28:42.420
assignment in the 60s aren't the sidement of the 80s.

623
00:28:42.480 --> 00:28:45.299
Okay, yes, it would work as an 80s cyberman story where you can

624
00:28:45.299 --> 00:28:48.480
imagine the ice lord as David Bangs, but don't think it works.

625
00:28:48.539 --> 00:28:52.380
I don't think it works with 60 Cyberman who would basically mute

626
00:28:52.380 --> 00:28:52.980
most of the time.

627
00:28:53.039 --> 00:28:53.940
That's true.

628
00:28:54.000 --> 00:28:58.140
But, but, I mean, you know, it's basically lizard men from Mars.

629
00:28:58.140 --> 00:29:00.299
Yeah, it could be nothing.

630
00:29:00.359 --> 00:29:02.880
And they look dreadful.

631
00:29:03.000 --> 00:29:04.980
Oh my god, they look awful.

632
00:29:05.039 --> 00:29:10.079
I do think that the ice Lord, when you see those close-ups that

633
00:29:10.079 --> 00:29:14.039
Jeremy mentioned of, you know, his chin, his and his teeth, that

634
00:29:14.039 --> 00:29:15.000
he looks great.

635
00:29:15.059 --> 00:29:17.339
His cost is ridiculous.

636
00:29:17.400 --> 00:29:22.680
He's got the floppy hat that goes all halfway down his back.

637
00:29:22.740 --> 00:29:23.279
It's really bad.

638
00:29:23.339 --> 00:29:27.720
Like, like, there's that thing where, like, it's just this big

639
00:29:27.720 --> 00:29:32.460
fibreglass thing with all this sort of pubic hair, fringing it.

640
00:29:32.579 --> 00:29:35.220
Like it's, and one of them is Todd's pumpkin head.

641
00:29:35.279 --> 00:29:37.200
So yeah, yeah, yeah.

642
00:29:37.259 --> 00:29:39.599
We did get rid of the pumpkin head ones, didn't we?

643
00:29:39.660 --> 00:29:41.819
Yeah, from the ice Warriors.

644
00:29:41.940 --> 00:29:43.500
But then they come back in the monster...

645
00:29:43.799 --> 00:29:46.079
Absolutely, they do.

646
00:29:46.140 --> 00:29:49.019
So clearly they found it in a cupboard.

647
00:29:49.079 --> 00:29:53.400
I mean, the main reason that we have Ice Warriors in this is that

648
00:29:53.400 --> 00:29:57.480
those big fibreglass things were expensive to store.

649
00:29:58.319 --> 00:30:01.140
We'd better use them again.

650
00:30:01.200 --> 00:30:02.519
Do we know the same costumes?

651
00:30:02.940 --> 00:30:06.660
Look, I think that they suffer in the same way that some other

652
00:30:06.660 --> 00:30:09.779
monster costumes and things suffer the 2nd time round because they

653
00:30:09.779 --> 00:30:13.440
have been shoved in a cupboard and they never come out looking the

654
00:30:13.440 --> 00:30:14.279
same as they went.

655
00:30:14.339 --> 00:30:16.920
They looked terrible in the ice warriors.

656
00:30:16.980 --> 00:30:19.319
I think they are, from the point of view of the thing.

657
00:30:19.380 --> 00:30:20.700
Maybe it's the lighting.

658
00:30:20.759 --> 00:30:23.339
There's a lot of that ice stuff in the ice Warriors that's, is

659
00:30:23.339 --> 00:30:23.880
that on film?

660
00:30:23.940 --> 00:30:25.619
There is a lot of that ice stuff in the ice.

661
00:30:25.680 --> 00:30:28.079
No, a lot of those eye sequences in the Ice Warriors.

662
00:30:28.140 --> 00:30:29.880
Is it on film or is it on studio?

663
00:30:29.940 --> 00:30:31.319
I think that helps it.

664
00:30:31.380 --> 00:30:33.720
I think also maybe the fact that the ice Warriors there are on

665
00:30:33.720 --> 00:30:37.019
that icy background for a lot of a tediously lot of the time.

666
00:30:37.319 --> 00:30:41.579
And here they're in kind of a dark control room, so they're sort

667
00:30:41.579 --> 00:30:42.000
of out of thing.

668
00:30:42.059 --> 00:30:44.400
I mean, they are the typical lumbering Doctor Who monster.

669
00:30:44.460 --> 00:30:45.059
Yeah.

670
00:30:45.059 --> 00:30:45.720
You're right.

671
00:30:45.779 --> 00:30:46.619
They completely interchangeable.

672
00:30:46.680 --> 00:30:48.779
And they've got like these massive arms.

673
00:30:48.779 --> 00:30:53.039
And like when the ice warrior talks, not sla, but when the other

674
00:30:53.039 --> 00:30:53.700
ones talk.

675
00:30:54.599 --> 00:30:57.900
Like they're kind of talking through this rubber thing that moves

676
00:30:57.900 --> 00:30:59.039
weirdly.

677
00:31:00.599 --> 00:31:05.039
They look so amateurish. like they really are quite dreadful.

678
00:31:05.099 --> 00:31:08.460
I think they look great until they...

679
00:31:08.460 --> 00:31:08.940
You see them.

680
00:31:08.940 --> 00:31:10.019
Until they turn up.

681
00:31:10.319 --> 00:31:10.920
No, till they move.

682
00:31:10.980 --> 00:31:11.339
No.

683
00:31:11.339 --> 00:31:14.519
They look great in the Doctor Who technical matter.

684
00:31:14.579 --> 00:31:17.940
He's the Doctor Who technical manual as well, you know.

685
00:31:18.000 --> 00:31:19.319
Sorry, here's my fan card.

686
00:31:19.799 --> 00:31:22.079
That's three, two.

687
00:31:23.579 --> 00:31:28.380
Look, I agree with you, but at the same time, I think for a 1968

688
00:31:28.380 --> 00:31:32.039
slash 9 audience, I think they do look many times better than the

689
00:31:32.039 --> 00:31:32.759
crotons.

690
00:31:32.880 --> 00:31:36.599
They look a little bit better than roses.

691
00:31:36.660 --> 00:31:37.200
Sorry?

692
00:31:37.259 --> 00:31:38.039
They don't have skirts.

693
00:31:38.099 --> 00:31:38.460
No.

694
00:31:38.579 --> 00:31:42.119
And their heads don't right take, but no, they are, as the

695
00:31:42.119 --> 00:31:46.019
fibreglass chest thing, I think they look much, much better, the

696
00:31:46.019 --> 00:31:47.940
hair coming out of orifices and things.

697
00:31:48.000 --> 00:31:52.859
I think that they look much better than the quarks, the crotons.

698
00:31:52.920 --> 00:31:55.980
Yeah, no, generally Doctor Who monsters look bad in this era, but

699
00:31:55.980 --> 00:32:00.839
the cybermen last week in the moon base. pretty great.

700
00:32:00.900 --> 00:32:04.019
And in the invasion, the Daleks have always looked really good.

701
00:32:04.079 --> 00:32:07.920
There was the slither, obviously, who we were all very impressed

702
00:32:07.920 --> 00:32:08.220
by.

703
00:32:08.279 --> 00:32:10.980
In 12 months' time. going to have the autons, which look

704
00:32:10.980 --> 00:32:11.819
incredible.

705
00:32:11.880 --> 00:32:12.900
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

706
00:32:13.440 --> 00:32:17.579
Look, I think the key takeaway from this is it's the Davros factor

707
00:32:17.579 --> 00:32:20.400
the Daleks are difficult to shoot.

708
00:32:20.460 --> 00:32:22.500
They're, you know, they're sort of clumsy props and that.

709
00:32:22.559 --> 00:32:28.200
You introduced Davros to give the doctor, yeah, someone to talk to

710
00:32:28.200 --> 00:32:31.619
a character who can articulate what the monster wants to do.

711
00:32:31.680 --> 00:32:35.519
So here is Alan Banyan in his 1st of 3 appearances as the Ice

712
00:32:35.519 --> 00:32:35.880
Lord.

713
00:32:35.940 --> 00:32:37.019
He's always the ice Lord.

714
00:32:37.079 --> 00:32:39.119
Whenever there's an ice Lord, it's Alan Benyon.

715
00:32:39.180 --> 00:32:45.000
And he moves elegantly and he's able to converse with the doctor.

716
00:32:45.059 --> 00:32:48.720
He's menacing in the way that ice warriors aren't generally.

717
00:32:48.779 --> 00:32:51.660
And I think he takes them away from being those lumbering

718
00:32:51.660 --> 00:32:52.079
monsters.

719
00:32:52.140 --> 00:32:56.279
It turns into that Doctor Who thing of being the leader who is the

720
00:32:56.279 --> 00:32:58.859
villain and then his henchman, which I'm fine with.

721
00:32:59.039 --> 00:33:00.420
Exactly.

722
00:33:00.480 --> 00:33:03.660
Okay, I'm going to say something that may be controversial.

723
00:33:03.720 --> 00:33:05.039
When I look at the cyberman.

724
00:33:05.099 --> 00:33:09.480
I think the cybermen are an incredible central concept and premise

725
00:33:09.480 --> 00:33:13.920
that falls short every time after its 1st appearance.

726
00:33:13.980 --> 00:33:18.119
So they're never to me is effective and they never quite reach

727
00:33:18.119 --> 00:33:18.839
their potential.

728
00:33:18.900 --> 00:33:25.920
And I think the ice warriors are a bog standard premise that

729
00:33:25.920 --> 00:33:30.539
occasionally surpasses its limitations.

730
00:33:30.599 --> 00:33:34.440
And I think it does so in the next 2 stories much better.

731
00:33:34.500 --> 00:33:37.859
I think there's, and I think also in the modern era much better.

732
00:33:37.920 --> 00:33:41.880
I think there's an argument to be made that it's not executed well

733
00:33:41.880 --> 00:33:45.240
but they're tried to make this into like the Klingons of Doctor

734
00:33:45.240 --> 00:33:49.619
Who, a race with a culture in some frame of honour that was

735
00:33:49.619 --> 00:33:51.420
villains and can be friends.

736
00:33:51.480 --> 00:33:54.779
And so that's interesting to me in a way that like the cybermen

737
00:33:54.779 --> 00:33:59.940
become, to me by the 80s, just they, even by the rules of their

738
00:33:59.940 --> 00:34:03.839
own premise, they're like smug and emotional, and they don't seem

739
00:34:03.839 --> 00:34:07.619
to really care about adapting people or, you know, any of that

740
00:34:07.619 --> 00:34:10.860
stuff anymore, and they've sort of lost everything that's freaky.

741
00:34:10.920 --> 00:34:15.300
So I do have a soft spot in my heart for the ice Warriors.

742
00:34:15.360 --> 00:34:17.579
And when they when they came back in the new series, I was

743
00:34:17.579 --> 00:34:23.400
genuinely thrilled because I'm like, yes, it's a 1950s bog

744
00:34:23.400 --> 00:34:26.519
standard monster, but let's see what they do and and there's

745
00:34:26.519 --> 00:34:27.119
things about I like.

746
00:34:27.179 --> 00:34:28.260
I don't know why they're lizards.

747
00:34:28.320 --> 00:34:30.539
I don't know why they're like the cold so much.

748
00:34:30.599 --> 00:34:32.639
None of that sense, but I still love them.

749
00:34:32.699 --> 00:34:35.039
Well, Maz is colder than this, so that happens.

750
00:34:35.039 --> 00:34:35.940
Yes, that's fun.

751
00:34:35.940 --> 00:34:36.900
But like, I guess.

752
00:34:36.960 --> 00:34:39.300
But their ice warriors, not because they come from Mars.

753
00:34:39.360 --> 00:34:41.880
Ice Warriors because they were dug out of a block of ice in the

754
00:34:41.880 --> 00:34:44.400
previous year. by somebody as an ice warrior.

755
00:34:44.460 --> 00:34:44.820
Yeah.

756
00:34:44.820 --> 00:34:46.380
A classic Doctor Who thing.

757
00:34:46.440 --> 00:34:49.260
It's like they're called the sea devils in the Silurians, because

758
00:34:49.260 --> 00:34:51.119
that's what we called them one time, you know?

759
00:34:51.119 --> 00:34:54.239
Yeah, loving Warriors of the Deep, says you're sea devil

760
00:34:54.239 --> 00:34:54.719
Warriors.

761
00:34:54.780 --> 00:34:55.679
I do call them that.

762
00:34:55.739 --> 00:34:56.400
You're one of them.

763
00:34:56.460 --> 00:34:57.360
Yes, it's a slur.

764
00:34:57.420 --> 00:35:00.059
Yeah, exactly.

765
00:35:00.900 --> 00:35:05.760
It does make me wonder why it takes until the Curse of Paladon to

766
00:35:05.760 --> 00:35:07.920
make the Ice Warriors interesting characters.

767
00:35:07.980 --> 00:35:10.920
And I know that because... in the middle.

768
00:35:10.980 --> 00:35:13.920
I mean, that's true, but the Ice Warriors are given very little

769
00:35:13.920 --> 00:35:16.920
background and very little to make them distinctive.

770
00:35:16.980 --> 00:35:20.099
I think it's why Nathan says they're interchangeable with the yeti

771
00:35:20.099 --> 00:35:21.599
and the sidemen of this era.

772
00:35:21.659 --> 00:35:25.559
They are just lizard forms of that, that we don't actually go into

773
00:35:25.559 --> 00:35:28.260
their culture and their hierarchy and what makes them interesting

774
00:35:28.260 --> 00:35:30.059
until the curse of peladon.

775
00:35:30.119 --> 00:35:30.420
Yes.

776
00:35:30.420 --> 00:35:34.679
And because the Trouton era is doing a series of bases under siege

777
00:35:34.679 --> 00:35:38.159
where the villains are just interchangeable bad guys.

778
00:35:38.159 --> 00:35:40.739
And here, I think...

779
00:35:40.739 --> 00:35:41.460
Well, it is.

780
00:35:41.460 --> 00:35:42.960
And this is breaking out of that.

781
00:35:43.019 --> 00:35:46.380
There's sort of elements of a base under siege because part of the

782
00:35:46.380 --> 00:35:49.679
story involves a base under siege, but it's not quite the base of

783
00:35:49.679 --> 00:35:50.820
the siege that no.

784
00:35:50.880 --> 00:35:51.719
And it's better.

785
00:35:51.780 --> 00:35:53.159
I think it is better for that reason.

786
00:35:53.280 --> 00:35:57.420
But it's not doing anything subtle or interesting with the

787
00:35:57.420 --> 00:35:59.639
monsters and the monsters that are, no.

788
00:35:59.699 --> 00:36:04.380
And the cybermen and the Daleks are both introduced in a way that

789
00:36:04.380 --> 00:36:08.400
is more interesting than what we eventually land on, or at least

790
00:36:08.400 --> 00:36:11.219
as far as, you know, their 2nd appearance is concerned.

791
00:36:11.340 --> 00:36:16.679
Here, you know, like I just think that the ice warriors, land

792
00:36:16.679 --> 00:36:23.579
boringly, and are kind of boring here, and it's the 70s, you know

793
00:36:23.579 --> 00:36:27.780
just giving them the brilliant idea of them not being the villains

794
00:36:27.780 --> 00:36:31.019
you know, that they're aliens, but they're not the villains, and

795
00:36:31.019 --> 00:36:34.440
that that blindsides the doctor, is that's a stroke of genius, I

796
00:36:34.440 --> 00:36:37.619
think, in Cursive Paladon, which they quickly reverse in the

797
00:36:37.619 --> 00:36:38.280
sequel.

798
00:36:38.340 --> 00:36:40.679
Well, and then...

799
00:36:40.679 --> 00:36:42.000
They're also good in monster appellant.

800
00:36:42.059 --> 00:36:45.000
Yeah, but I also think too that there's all of that sort of

801
00:36:45.000 --> 00:36:48.900
spinoff staff and Gary's novels and all of that sort of thing that

802
00:36:48.900 --> 00:36:52.739
does turn them into the Klingons, that's when they get turned into

803
00:36:52.739 --> 00:36:52.980
that.

804
00:36:53.039 --> 00:36:55.260
I do think the form is interesting.

805
00:36:55.320 --> 00:36:58.199
Like one of the things I respect about Peladon so much is that

806
00:36:58.199 --> 00:37:02.280
rather than doing what we, Doctor Who always does, which is we

807
00:37:02.280 --> 00:37:04.619
have this story going on with this theme, and we're going to chuck

808
00:37:04.619 --> 00:37:07.739
monsters in, and if they work with the theme, great, if they don't

809
00:37:07.739 --> 00:37:08.579
they're still the monsters.

810
00:37:08.639 --> 00:37:12.360
But writing that, Terrence, and I have to assume this is Terrence

811
00:37:12.360 --> 00:37:15.360
Sticks, is smart enough to know, no, we're doing a thing about

812
00:37:15.360 --> 00:37:19.199
about a geopolitical question about entering the common market and

813
00:37:19.199 --> 00:37:20.159
that's our theme.

814
00:37:20.219 --> 00:37:24.300
So the ice warriors have to change to fit into this story.

815
00:37:24.360 --> 00:37:28.380
They have to become more complicated in order to be part of the

816
00:37:28.380 --> 00:37:29.460
narrative we're building.

817
00:37:29.519 --> 00:37:33.420
And that's how you organically refresh something as opposed to, I

818
00:37:33.420 --> 00:37:35.639
don't think they were setting out to make, like, think they were

819
00:37:35.639 --> 00:37:37.739
doing some big new revision of the ice warriors.

820
00:37:37.800 --> 00:37:40.139
I think they were like, well, this will be interesting and it fits

821
00:37:40.139 --> 00:37:41.039
into this idea.

822
00:37:41.099 --> 00:37:43.320
And that's why it works.

823
00:37:43.380 --> 00:37:45.239
Yeah, and the costumes in recovery.

824
00:37:45.300 --> 00:37:51.719
Yeah, I think the costumes are in the cupboard. yeah Can I make

825
00:37:51.719 --> 00:37:54.300
the observation that we're almost coming to the conclusion that

826
00:37:54.300 --> 00:37:57.539
the use of monsters on the 2nd go round, turned them quite a bit

827
00:37:57.539 --> 00:37:59.699
into a just a generic thing.

828
00:37:59.760 --> 00:38:03.480
I'd almost posit, although the chase is, the exception proves the

829
00:38:03.480 --> 00:38:04.320
rule.

830
00:38:04.380 --> 00:38:09.719
Yeah, we might pretend that it's the 4th one, in that case, because

831
00:38:09.719 --> 00:38:12.000
of the rapid fire nature that the chase is so soon after Dalek

832
00:38:12.000 --> 00:38:12.659
Bay.

833
00:38:12.719 --> 00:38:14.639
It's the 3rd time that they actually do something interesting with

834
00:38:14.639 --> 00:38:14.820
them.

835
00:38:14.880 --> 00:38:18.000
Third time on Paladon, where the ice warriors have got like a bit

836
00:38:18.000 --> 00:38:18.480
of a culture.

837
00:38:18.539 --> 00:38:20.880
The 3rd time with a sideman, we go to the tomb of the sideman

838
00:38:20.880 --> 00:38:22.380
which is a different thing because the moon base is just basically

839
00:38:22.380 --> 00:38:23.519
a rerun of the 10th planet.

840
00:38:23.579 --> 00:38:25.920
Yeah, I see your shum of the side, man, and race you in invasion

841
00:38:25.920 --> 00:38:26.219
of time.

842
00:38:26.760 --> 00:38:31.320
As I said, maybe maybe it's not always the 3rd because I would

843
00:38:31.320 --> 00:38:34.199
suggest that the 2 doctors are actually much better.

844
00:38:34.260 --> 00:38:36.599
And it's kind of like, it's that kind of thing where I don't know

845
00:38:36.599 --> 00:38:38.880
whether this is the way it went with 2 doctors, but it's that kind

846
00:38:38.880 --> 00:38:41.159
of thing where maybe aliens were written.

847
00:38:41.159 --> 00:38:43.860
And then James, he's going, oh, we could swap those out and make

848
00:38:43.860 --> 00:38:44.880
them Santarans.

849
00:38:44.940 --> 00:38:47.280
And like what you're saying with the ice Warriors in, because

850
00:38:47.280 --> 00:38:50.579
Paladon, Jeremy, It's like the suddenly an old monster is

851
00:38:50.579 --> 00:38:55.500
reintroduced but modified and made more interesting to suit the

852
00:38:55.500 --> 00:38:58.260
new story that's being told rather than, oh, let's do another

853
00:38:58.260 --> 00:39:00.900
story with the ice water, which is basically kind of what this

854
00:39:00.900 --> 00:39:01.139
is.

855
00:39:01.139 --> 00:39:03.119
Or maybe this is just the monster of the week.

856
00:39:03.179 --> 00:39:04.139
Exactly.

857
00:39:04.199 --> 00:39:06.360
It's not, let's just do another story with the eyesores.

858
00:39:06.420 --> 00:39:08.820
It like, let's do another story with a race of monsters, and this

859
00:39:08.820 --> 00:39:10.380
week we'll make it the ice Warriors.

860
00:39:10.440 --> 00:39:11.159
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

861
00:39:11.219 --> 00:39:13.800
And actually, I think one of the reasons why I find this story so

862
00:39:13.800 --> 00:39:16.679
entertaining, apart from all the many reasons we've already stayed

863
00:39:16.679 --> 00:39:18.960
is because the ice warriors could be anything.

864
00:39:19.019 --> 00:39:21.900
It's not about the ice Warriors, for me, it's basically about

865
00:39:21.900 --> 00:39:23.159
everything else that's going on.

866
00:39:23.219 --> 00:39:28.320
It's all of the humans interacting and the guest cast, which makes

867
00:39:28.320 --> 00:39:29.159
it so brilliant.

868
00:39:29.219 --> 00:39:33.960
You know, the fact that they come from Mars is the reason that

869
00:39:33.960 --> 00:39:34.739
they're here.

870
00:39:35.039 --> 00:39:39.179
Because they're trying to terraform the earth in the ice warriors

871
00:39:39.179 --> 00:39:41.099
and then they're trying to do it again here.

872
00:39:41.159 --> 00:39:44.280
So they're trying to reduce the amount of oxygen in the atmosphere

873
00:39:44.280 --> 00:39:46.679
so that they can breathe it so that it's more aligned with a

874
00:39:46.679 --> 00:39:47.519
Martian atmosphere.

875
00:39:47.579 --> 00:39:52.260
And of course, there's the red weed, isn't there, in the... that

876
00:39:52.260 --> 00:39:53.099
wholesale, yeah.

877
00:39:53.159 --> 00:39:55.500
Yeah, and so they've just taken that as well.

878
00:39:55.559 --> 00:39:57.179
And, you know, that's fine.

879
00:39:57.239 --> 00:39:59.159
I'm not criticising that.

880
00:39:59.219 --> 00:40:03.360
But I think that that's probably why they're chosen to fit in with

881
00:40:03.360 --> 00:40:05.940
this story, given that there's not a lot of ice around.

882
00:40:07.199 --> 00:40:11.039
They work as Martians rather than ice.

883
00:40:11.099 --> 00:40:15.719
But there is that one aspect of the story where the ice thing or

884
00:40:15.719 --> 00:40:18.300
the cold thing becomes relevant and that's turning the heating

885
00:40:18.300 --> 00:40:18.599
up.

886
00:40:18.659 --> 00:40:20.400
The giant ship's wheel on the front.

887
00:40:20.460 --> 00:40:21.420
Really terrible.

888
00:40:21.420 --> 00:40:23.519
Wow, that's the worst.

889
00:40:23.579 --> 00:40:25.679
The 2 settings are cold.

890
00:40:25.679 --> 00:40:29.039
I just say, it's just a demonstration that people in Britain in

891
00:40:29.039 --> 00:40:31.199
the 60s didn't actually know what centigrade was.

892
00:40:31.260 --> 00:40:33.960
No, okay, well, because at one point.

893
00:40:34.019 --> 00:40:37.260
So we watched the temperature go up, but I think at the highest

894
00:40:37.260 --> 00:40:40.260
point, it's over 60 degrees centigrade.

895
00:40:40.260 --> 00:40:43.260
Everyone would be dead.

896
00:40:43.320 --> 00:40:44.280
It is that thing.

897
00:40:44.280 --> 00:40:48.900
We said last week, you know, how somehow the cybermen are uniquely

898
00:40:48.900 --> 00:40:54.000
unlike literally every physical object of any kind, vulnerable to

899
00:40:54.000 --> 00:40:54.599
gravity.

900
00:40:56.639 --> 00:41:01.500
Here, turning up, turning up the temperature to 60 degrees

901
00:41:01.500 --> 00:41:05.880
centigrade, which would kill everyone on the base. seems to affect

902
00:41:05.880 --> 00:41:08.340
seems to affect the ice warriors much worse.

903
00:41:08.460 --> 00:41:11.880
I always think about that scene in Thunderball, where they lock

904
00:41:11.880 --> 00:41:14.579
James Bond into that rowing machine and crank it up.

905
00:41:14.639 --> 00:41:16.440
And I'm like, why would this go this fast?

906
00:41:16.500 --> 00:41:17.340
Like, why would it?

907
00:41:17.519 --> 00:41:18.539
tear him apart.

908
00:41:18.599 --> 00:41:19.559
Why would this fuck?

909
00:41:19.619 --> 00:41:20.760
Why would this have this function?

910
00:41:20.820 --> 00:41:21.300
You know?

911
00:41:21.360 --> 00:41:26.219
Well, that's it's not just that, but in fact, the thermometer on

912
00:41:26.219 --> 00:41:27.420
the wall goes up to a 100.

913
00:41:27.659 --> 00:41:29.280
Oh, what's the temperature?

914
00:41:29.280 --> 00:41:29.940
I was 92.

915
00:41:31.139 --> 00:41:35.039
I mean, although, you know, my Audi says it, you know, might, yeah

916
00:41:35.039 --> 00:41:37.440
speedometer on my Audi goes up to like 280 now.

917
00:41:37.500 --> 00:41:40.440
I don't think the car is going to go. to impress you.

918
00:41:40.500 --> 00:41:42.840
It's also, it's that...

919
00:41:42.840 --> 00:41:45.480
Just in case, just in case Fuchsian wants to cook a turkey in

920
00:41:45.480 --> 00:41:47.699
the...

921
00:41:47.760 --> 00:41:49.800
I think you'll find fuchsium is the term.

922
00:41:49.860 --> 00:41:51.119
He is the turkey.

923
00:41:51.179 --> 00:41:52.260
Oh, I love fusion.

924
00:41:52.320 --> 00:41:54.840
It's also that Doctor Who thing of, you know, whenever you have a

925
00:41:54.840 --> 00:41:58.800
countdown and you cut away, the bleeps or the counting these never

926
00:41:58.800 --> 00:41:59.880
go to match actual seconds.

927
00:41:59.940 --> 00:42:02.699
Yeah, the thermometer does go back.

928
00:42:02.760 --> 00:42:05.400
It goes up to 60, then it drops going to come back.

929
00:42:05.400 --> 00:42:06.239
Yeah.

930
00:42:06.300 --> 00:42:09.300
People are looking at dials and saying, it's going up.

931
00:42:09.360 --> 00:42:11.280
You cut to the dial, which then starts to go up.

932
00:42:11.340 --> 00:42:14.099
Yeah, that's the thing that Janet Fielding always says in the

933
00:42:14.099 --> 00:42:15.119
behind the sofa.

934
00:42:15.179 --> 00:42:16.920
She always hates, but she goes, look.

935
00:42:16.980 --> 00:42:19.019
And then the thing happens.

936
00:42:28.800 --> 00:42:32.579
Can we talk a little bit about Brian Hales and the fact that he's

937
00:42:32.579 --> 00:42:33.420
just not very good?

938
00:42:33.719 --> 00:42:36.420
Oh yeah, let's do that. think that's a little unfair.

939
00:42:36.480 --> 00:42:37.019
Okay.

940
00:42:37.079 --> 00:42:39.000
Well, I take your uncle...

941
00:42:39.059 --> 00:42:43.440
I take your unfair and I raise you a celestial toy maker.

942
00:42:43.500 --> 00:42:44.940
Oh, God, I forgot about that one.

943
00:42:45.000 --> 00:42:45.900
Okay, yes, you're completely right.

944
00:42:46.320 --> 00:42:49.860
I also put more steaks on the monster of Paladon, even though I

945
00:42:49.860 --> 00:42:50.820
kind of...

946
00:42:50.820 --> 00:42:54.360
No, I think Monster Paladon has the advantage of being scripted by

947
00:42:54.360 --> 00:42:55.320
Terrence Dix like this.

948
00:42:55.380 --> 00:42:57.599
And also, I'm in the ice war is not very good.

949
00:42:57.659 --> 00:42:59.159
Not a very good script at all.

950
00:42:59.219 --> 00:43:02.940
I think we're the Ice Warriors doesn't have, apart from that, that

951
00:43:02.940 --> 00:43:06.239
nothing actually really happens, is, and I think this is probably

952
00:43:06.239 --> 00:43:09.780
mirroring your criticism of the moon base as well, Nathan, is that

953
00:43:09.780 --> 00:43:12.539
the fundamental thing that they both have in common is that

954
00:43:12.539 --> 00:43:13.079
they're very dry.

955
00:43:13.139 --> 00:43:17.579
I think that we said last week that the great thing about the Ice

956
00:43:17.579 --> 00:43:24.000
Warriors is that little polycule of store and Clint and, um, Penley

957
00:43:24.000 --> 00:43:26.099
and...

958
00:43:26.219 --> 00:43:30.119
The computer, Miss Garrett, you know, like the, like the thing, the

959
00:43:30.119 --> 00:43:32.820
interactions between all of those characters is actually quite

960
00:43:32.820 --> 00:43:35.579
interesting, but the story itself is super boring.

961
00:43:35.699 --> 00:43:39.420
Yeah, I mean, the Ice Warriors and Monster of Peloton actually

962
00:43:39.420 --> 00:43:41.519
which I know we all have a soft spot full.

963
00:43:41.579 --> 00:43:42.480
Except me.

964
00:43:42.599 --> 00:43:49.679
It's really boring But it's the, well, I'm going to sort of agree

965
00:43:49.679 --> 00:43:51.960
with you. in that with both of them.

966
00:43:52.019 --> 00:43:56.880
I confess I've watched neither of them that many times, but I can

967
00:43:56.880 --> 00:43:59.880
have just finished watching the Ice Warriors or Monster of Peloton

968
00:43:59.880 --> 00:44:02.280
and I can't really tell you what's happened.

969
00:44:02.340 --> 00:44:03.659
I can't, I just forget.

970
00:44:03.719 --> 00:44:05.760
There's never enough story development.

971
00:44:05.820 --> 00:44:07.619
There's not enough story development, and they could be so much

972
00:44:07.619 --> 00:44:09.119
more, especially in Monster Pelleton.

973
00:44:09.179 --> 00:44:12.000
But look, the ice war is it's got the high concept and then, yeah

974
00:44:12.000 --> 00:44:14.460
he doesn't kind of then push it anywhere.

975
00:44:14.519 --> 00:44:17.400
Like, it's not helped by the fact that the extant episodes are one

976
00:44:17.400 --> 00:44:17.940
four, 5, and six.

977
00:44:18.000 --> 00:44:20.639
I think if it was one, two, three, six, we'd have a better view of

978
00:44:20.639 --> 00:44:21.179
it.

979
00:44:21.239 --> 00:44:23.820
And in many ways, he's covered by the fact that on his 2 Charlton

980
00:44:23.820 --> 00:44:24.179
stories.

981
00:44:24.300 --> 00:44:26.940
He's got really good directors working from it.

982
00:44:27.000 --> 00:44:29.579
So it covers the fact that these are really boring, okay?

983
00:44:29.639 --> 00:44:31.380
And it looks, I swear it looks like it's got some money.

984
00:44:31.440 --> 00:44:34.860
I just think that Ice Warriors is very weird in that there's a ton

985
00:44:34.860 --> 00:44:38.099
of premises in there that he doesn't run with that nobody runs

986
00:44:38.099 --> 00:44:38.579
with at all.

987
00:44:38.639 --> 00:44:40.980
So, and there's some stuff that's really weird.

988
00:44:41.039 --> 00:44:44.699
I love the weird mansion in the middle of the snowstorm. which is

989
00:44:44.699 --> 00:44:47.579
a nice image, but they don't really, doesn't really do anything

990
00:44:47.579 --> 00:44:48.119
with that.

991
00:44:48.179 --> 00:44:51.900
Same with the Luddite, like the anti-technology, technology

992
00:44:51.900 --> 00:44:52.260
things.

993
00:44:52.320 --> 00:44:55.079
It's a little bit explored, but like there's a bunch of stuff that

994
00:44:55.079 --> 00:44:57.960
is just kind of vomited out there and it doesn't really go

995
00:44:57.960 --> 00:44:58.440
anywhere.

996
00:44:58.500 --> 00:45:00.239
And I think that's what leads it to be dry.

997
00:45:00.300 --> 00:45:05.340
And I'm not surprised that once he gets a really solid script

998
00:45:05.340 --> 00:45:10.260
editor who really like knows how to take an idea and push it, um

999
00:45:10.260 --> 00:45:12.659
that the scripts feel much more robust.

1000
00:45:12.659 --> 00:45:16.440
Because I think he's got good concepts, but I don't know that he

1001
00:45:16.440 --> 00:45:19.800
knows how to make it work throughout the entire length of a 4 or 6

1002
00:45:19.800 --> 00:45:20.400
part story.

1003
00:45:20.460 --> 00:45:22.500
That's what it feels like to me.

1004
00:45:22.559 --> 00:45:25.440
I think that's definitely true of the, isn't it?

1005
00:45:25.500 --> 00:45:27.659
Because I think the tame ad is a really strong concept.

1006
00:45:27.780 --> 00:45:31.619
And that opening scene with all that activity and stuff.

1007
00:45:31.739 --> 00:45:35.280
And it's sort of unusual for Doctor Who, where we sort of create a

1008
00:45:35.280 --> 00:45:38.820
future where this very odd technological thing has happened and

1009
00:45:38.820 --> 00:45:40.800
kind of defines the way the world works.

1010
00:45:40.920 --> 00:45:41.940
Yeah.

1011
00:45:41.940 --> 00:45:45.900
And that's really great, but it doesn't actually end up being

1012
00:45:45.900 --> 00:45:47.219
super important.

1013
00:45:47.280 --> 00:45:51.360
I mean, it's what enables the seeds to come to earth, but we

1014
00:45:51.360 --> 00:45:53.880
basically stop using it at some point in the story.

1015
00:45:53.940 --> 00:45:54.900
But it's interesting.

1016
00:45:54.960 --> 00:45:57.599
I mean, the idea of a teleport has already been I mean, we haven't

1017
00:45:57.599 --> 00:45:59.219
actually had it in Doctor Who yet, have we?

1018
00:45:59.280 --> 00:46:00.000
A teleporter?

1019
00:46:00.059 --> 00:46:01.199
I don't think we have.

1020
00:46:01.260 --> 00:46:02.280
Correct me.

1021
00:46:02.340 --> 00:46:03.119
I don't think so.

1022
00:46:03.119 --> 00:46:04.019
Scarlic master plan.

1023
00:46:04.139 --> 00:46:05.340
Oh, done, it must have been.

1024
00:46:05.940 --> 00:46:07.139
Handed your fan, huh?

1025
00:46:07.199 --> 00:46:07.679
Oh, shush.

1026
00:46:07.860 --> 00:46:09.659
It's a big deal.

1027
00:46:09.719 --> 00:46:12.059
Like they have to invent this massive machine for it. not just

1028
00:46:12.059 --> 00:46:13.139
like a phone cabinet.

1029
00:46:13.199 --> 00:46:16.199
But nevertheless, it's not that imaginative an idea.

1030
00:46:16.260 --> 00:46:18.000
Like teleport, yeah, it's just something that is a sort of a

1031
00:46:18.000 --> 00:46:18.780
science fiction thing.

1032
00:46:18.840 --> 00:46:22.260
But what I find interesting about it is that rather than just say

1033
00:46:22.260 --> 00:46:24.900
oh, we live in the future and we've got these teleportation

1034
00:46:24.900 --> 00:46:29.039
devices, they've actually tried to think of, well, how might that

1035
00:46:29.039 --> 00:46:32.760
actually change the way we live, how will it change the world?

1036
00:46:32.820 --> 00:46:34.079
And I think that's interesting.

1037
00:46:34.199 --> 00:46:36.659
Because so infrequently, you get that.

1038
00:46:36.719 --> 00:46:40.440
It might be a rip off of Star Trek, I don't know how influential

1039
00:46:40.440 --> 00:46:42.119
Star Trek is at this point.

1040
00:46:42.179 --> 00:46:45.300
It wasn't Ireland in the UK until after the war games ended.

1041
00:46:45.360 --> 00:46:45.840
Yeah, okay.

1042
00:46:45.900 --> 00:46:46.199
Yeah.

1043
00:46:46.260 --> 00:46:48.000
But they knew about it.

1044
00:46:48.119 --> 00:46:51.179
Because, I mean, the teleport there, the transporter in Star Trek

1045
00:46:51.179 --> 00:46:54.780
is merely there so that we don't have to land the ship.

1046
00:46:54.840 --> 00:46:56.519
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1047
00:46:56.579 --> 00:46:59.159
It's the TARDIS and Doctor Who just appears out of nowhere.

1048
00:46:59.219 --> 00:47:03.000
And they never really take it very far until, you know, later on

1049
00:47:03.000 --> 00:47:04.619
in Star Trek's run.

1050
00:47:04.739 --> 00:47:07.920
Like, it's never the focus of an episode in original.

1051
00:47:07.980 --> 00:47:11.280
There are no transport or accidents, which can buy 2 characters

1052
00:47:11.280 --> 00:47:12.480
and buffers and things in.

1053
00:47:12.539 --> 00:47:14.400
That all comes.

1054
00:47:14.460 --> 00:47:18.719
I will say this, not to get too far off track, but James Blish, who

1055
00:47:18.719 --> 00:47:21.840
wrote the novelisations of all the Star Trek episodes, his 1st or

1056
00:47:21.840 --> 00:47:24.900
2nd Star Trek novel right around the time the series was going on

1057
00:47:24.900 --> 00:47:26.340
was called Spock Must Die.

1058
00:47:26.400 --> 00:47:29.760
And it's a really great book where Spock gets duplicated in a

1059
00:47:29.760 --> 00:47:32.940
transporter accident and they have to decide which one to get rid

1060
00:47:32.940 --> 00:47:35.880
of because there can't be 2 Spocks running around.

1061
00:47:35.940 --> 00:47:39.599
You know, one of them's got to be legitimate and one must not. 2nd

1062
00:47:39.599 --> 00:47:40.679
chances on TNC.

1063
00:47:40.739 --> 00:47:41.639
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1064
00:47:41.699 --> 00:47:45.059
So it is that idea where it's like a Black Mirror episode or

1065
00:47:45.059 --> 00:47:45.239
something.

1066
00:47:45.300 --> 00:47:47.280
It's like we've got this technological thing.

1067
00:47:47.340 --> 00:47:48.599
How does it change the world?

1068
00:47:48.659 --> 00:47:52.800
And I think all of that's super interesting and having Eldred as a

1069
00:47:52.800 --> 00:47:56.880
character who's who pines for a time when there was a, you know

1070
00:47:56.880 --> 00:47:58.139
like a space program and stuff.

1071
00:47:58.199 --> 00:48:00.119
Which is what's going on as this is going on?

1072
00:48:00.179 --> 00:48:02.400
Yeah, well, in fact, that's one of the things that Sandifer

1073
00:48:02.400 --> 00:48:07.139
mentions is how kind of thrilling it is that Doctor Who produces a

1074
00:48:07.139 --> 00:48:09.900
story where we're all sick of the space program.

1075
00:48:09.960 --> 00:48:13.320
Yeah, we'll follow the space program even really gets going.

1076
00:48:13.380 --> 00:48:14.039
Yeah.

1077
00:48:14.099 --> 00:48:18.179
And I'd love to, like, to take that idea and be like, well, it's

1078
00:48:18.179 --> 00:48:19.260
very prophetic.

1079
00:48:19.320 --> 00:48:24.059
If we have convenience, then we lose a spirit of adventure, right?

1080
00:48:24.119 --> 00:48:26.639
And the idea that it's because everything becomes easier.

1081
00:48:26.639 --> 00:48:30.900
And that's sort of what Eldrin is bemoaning, not just that they

1082
00:48:30.900 --> 00:48:33.179
don't go in space, but just like we used to do things.

1083
00:48:33.239 --> 00:48:36.840
And you look around the world today and it's like, oh, yeah, I

1084
00:48:36.840 --> 00:48:40.500
kind of see how convenience can really sap us of that

1085
00:48:40.500 --> 00:48:42.480
industriousness and that ingenuity.

1086
00:48:42.539 --> 00:48:45.480
And the point I ordered to make too, was that I listened, went

1087
00:48:45.480 --> 00:48:48.960
back and listened to the FTE when you were talking about seat of

1088
00:48:48.960 --> 00:48:51.780
death and this is 2014, right?

1089
00:48:51.840 --> 00:48:56.760
You all kind of think how silly it is that T-Mats out of action

1090
00:48:56.760 --> 00:48:57.780
for a couple of days.

1091
00:48:58.739 --> 00:49:02.159
Everything goes to hell and everyone's starving and it's like how

1092
00:49:02.159 --> 00:49:02.519
ridiculous.

1093
00:49:02.579 --> 00:49:04.440
Remember COVID.

1094
00:49:04.559 --> 00:49:08.159
Remember how supermarkets shelves are cleared when there's no

1095
00:49:08.159 --> 00:49:08.820
deliveries?

1096
00:49:08.820 --> 00:49:09.960
Suddenly they're empty.

1097
00:49:10.019 --> 00:49:11.820
We live just in time.

1098
00:49:11.940 --> 00:49:13.500
It's the just in time, isn't it?

1099
00:49:13.559 --> 00:49:18.000
freighter being stuck in the Suez Canal and how that had knock on

1100
00:49:18.000 --> 00:49:20.039
effects for years after.

1101
00:49:20.099 --> 00:49:21.000
It's amazing.

1102
00:49:21.059 --> 00:49:24.000
So imagine how much worse that would be when you can just teleport

1103
00:49:24.000 --> 00:49:24.539
everything everywhere.

1104
00:49:24.599 --> 00:49:25.260
Yeah.

1105
00:49:25.320 --> 00:49:27.119
I was actually thinking that this time.

1106
00:49:27.179 --> 00:49:30.780
I was thinking why is everyone starving within sort of 24 hours

1107
00:49:30.780 --> 00:49:31.500
and stuff?

1108
00:49:31.559 --> 00:49:38.219
And it is absolutely the fact that having stock in a warehouse is

1109
00:49:38.219 --> 00:49:39.360
a liability.

1110
00:49:39.360 --> 00:49:44.219
And so we don't do it anymore and you absolutely wouldn't do it. if

1111
00:49:44.219 --> 00:49:46.500
you were just able to transport things from place to place

1112
00:49:46.500 --> 00:49:47.159
immediately.

1113
00:49:47.219 --> 00:49:51.000
I mean, imagine if Amazon stopped working for 6 weeks, right?

1114
00:49:51.059 --> 00:49:52.739
I mean, if it just completely shut down.

1115
00:49:52.800 --> 00:49:53.699
People would go crazy.

1116
00:49:53.820 --> 00:49:57.119
Remember in COVID, we were all locked in our homes, but the people

1117
00:49:57.119 --> 00:50:00.360
at the Amazon fulfilment thing in Chalora still had to go to

1118
00:50:00.360 --> 00:50:00.599
work.

1119
00:50:00.659 --> 00:50:02.460
Yeah, absolutely.

1120
00:50:02.460 --> 00:50:03.719
And that's what I was going to say.

1121
00:50:03.780 --> 00:50:06.300
We live in that world now where, you know, you get your food

1122
00:50:06.300 --> 00:50:09.960
delivered half an hour later by Uber Eats because that's the way

1123
00:50:09.960 --> 00:50:11.639
that you feed yourself.

1124
00:50:11.760 --> 00:50:14.699
You know, you have to go out to a supermarket and buy food and

1125
00:50:14.699 --> 00:50:17.400
cook it or someone just brings it to you instantaneously.

1126
00:50:17.519 --> 00:50:19.739
So, basically, if you had team ads and you go, I'm going to order

1127
00:50:19.739 --> 00:50:22.380
a curry tonight, you press a button, they cook the curry and the

1128
00:50:22.380 --> 00:50:24.059
curry, you know, there's not even a knock at the door.

1129
00:50:24.119 --> 00:50:26.460
There's that sound, it goes, bling, and they're on the floor in

1130
00:50:26.460 --> 00:50:27.119
the telephone room.

1131
00:50:27.599 --> 00:50:30.300
T-Mat, Earl Grey, hot.

1132
00:50:30.360 --> 00:50:31.679
Well, they're interesting.

1133
00:50:31.739 --> 00:50:34.860
Interestingly though, there's no suggestion that you have the team

1134
00:50:34.860 --> 00:50:36.119
at booth in your own home.

1135
00:50:36.179 --> 00:50:38.820
Like you have to go to the street corner like it's a phone.

1136
00:50:38.880 --> 00:50:41.820
There are there are personal, like local ones.

1137
00:50:41.880 --> 00:50:43.079
But no, it's not a residential thing.

1138
00:50:43.139 --> 00:50:44.039
Yes, yes.

1139
00:50:44.099 --> 00:50:47.340
I enjoy the fact that it is setting up this world, which is a bit

1140
00:50:47.340 --> 00:50:49.679
of a cul-de-sac for Doc 2 and never really revisit.

1141
00:50:49.679 --> 00:50:49.920
No.

1142
00:50:49.980 --> 00:50:50.639
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1143
00:50:50.639 --> 00:50:54.900
It has an impact on the storytelling because in common with a lot

1144
00:50:54.900 --> 00:50:58.920
of late Trouton, There's world building, which is done before the

1145
00:50:58.920 --> 00:51:00.599
doctor and his companions turn up.

1146
00:51:00.659 --> 00:51:02.280
It's 8 minutes before they turn off.

1147
00:51:02.280 --> 00:51:04.440
And in the space pirates, It's 11 minutes.

1148
00:51:04.500 --> 00:51:05.039
Yeah.

1149
00:51:05.039 --> 00:51:08.880
Whereas for a lot of time, up until this point, the doctor leads

1150
00:51:08.880 --> 00:51:09.900
you into the story.

1151
00:51:09.960 --> 00:51:13.019
Whereas now it's setting up the story and dropping the doctor into

1152
00:51:13.019 --> 00:51:13.260
it.

1153
00:51:13.320 --> 00:51:16.139
And I think that is a more sophisticated approach and something

1154
00:51:16.139 --> 00:51:17.519
flies under the radar a little bit.

1155
00:51:17.579 --> 00:51:18.480
Yeah, yeah.

1156
00:51:18.539 --> 00:51:22.320
Yes, it's that for me is traditional Doctor Who, where the 1st

1157
00:51:22.320 --> 00:51:22.800
sequence.

1158
00:51:22.860 --> 00:51:24.179
Sometimes it's a long sequence.

1159
00:51:24.239 --> 00:51:26.219
I mean, Attack of Assignment sort of does that as well, for

1160
00:51:26.219 --> 00:51:26.579
instance.

1161
00:51:26.639 --> 00:51:29.699
Um, and in fact, I didn't mention at the time, I don't think, but

1162
00:51:29.699 --> 00:51:32.820
in Dalek Amazed Birth, that's a rare example way back then where

1163
00:51:32.820 --> 00:51:34.860
you have this whole scene with the Roman drowning in the river.

1164
00:51:34.920 --> 00:51:37.679
Yeah, yeah. before the task even appear on screen.

1165
00:51:37.739 --> 00:51:40.079
You feel like you get to know the world that they're about to

1166
00:51:40.079 --> 00:51:40.559
arrive in.

1167
00:51:40.679 --> 00:51:43.860
In fact, in Dalek Invasion of Earth, then the doctor leaves and

1168
00:51:43.860 --> 00:51:44.820
the story continues.

1169
00:51:44.880 --> 00:51:48.000
So it's absolutely being told from the point of view of that

1170
00:51:48.000 --> 00:51:48.300
world.

1171
00:51:48.360 --> 00:51:52.260
Whereas here we get what is a very standard trout and thing of

1172
00:51:52.260 --> 00:51:54.360
them all just sort of racking off.

1173
00:51:54.539 --> 00:51:56.340
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1174
00:51:56.400 --> 00:51:57.000
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1175
00:51:57.059 --> 00:51:59.940
I do find a little bit talking of tea, Matt, a little bit baffling

1176
00:51:59.940 --> 00:52:04.320
the choices of the cities on the wall.

1177
00:52:04.380 --> 00:52:08.639
Well, yes, but there's Ismir, which is a 3rd rate Turkish city.

1178
00:52:08.699 --> 00:52:10.559
So it's not even anchor.

1179
00:52:10.619 --> 00:52:11.579
Exactly.

1180
00:52:11.639 --> 00:52:18.360
And tellingly, nowhere in Asia or Africa is very Europe centre. and

1181
00:52:18.360 --> 00:52:20.159
both Calcutta and Bombay.

1182
00:52:21.000 --> 00:52:25.079
Well, I was going to say, here's the thing that's very strange if

1183
00:52:25.079 --> 00:52:25.800
you're a Canadian.

1184
00:52:25.860 --> 00:52:27.719
They do Toronto and Ottawa.

1185
00:52:27.780 --> 00:52:30.000
Now Canada's pretty freaking big.

1186
00:52:30.059 --> 00:52:33.119
These are the 2 cities that are like right next to each other

1187
00:52:33.119 --> 00:52:34.559
basically in Ontario.

1188
00:52:34.619 --> 00:52:35.639
Vancouver.

1189
00:52:36.000 --> 00:52:38.400
It's like Vancouver, Vancouver gets no food.

1190
00:52:38.460 --> 00:52:42.360
Halifax gets no food. you know, everybody has to live in Toronto.

1191
00:52:42.420 --> 00:52:43.139
I mean, come on.

1192
00:52:43.199 --> 00:52:45.480
Maybe they operate a spoke system.

1193
00:52:45.539 --> 00:52:46.320
One can only imagine.

1194
00:52:46.380 --> 00:52:48.239
That's what I would think. like the hub cities.

1195
00:52:48.300 --> 00:52:50.880
I was kind of wondering whether Canberra was a little bit more of

1196
00:52:50.880 --> 00:52:53.639
a big deal, like in the 60s, because, you know, we're building

1197
00:52:53.639 --> 00:52:55.860
lovely public buildings and it's kind of...

1198
00:52:55.860 --> 00:52:58.559
Well, I think in 198, it's still apartment house with a paddock.

1199
00:52:58.619 --> 00:53:00.539
I don't think there's much there still.

1200
00:53:00.599 --> 00:53:02.280
And a high court, I think.

1201
00:53:02.340 --> 00:53:03.000
Yeah, right.

1202
00:53:03.059 --> 00:53:03.900
Yeah.

1203
00:53:03.960 --> 00:53:05.579
It's still basically that now.

1204
00:53:05.639 --> 00:53:10.199
But you can, you can imagine if we needed a great big greenfield

1205
00:53:10.199 --> 00:53:14.579
site near a decent population centred to build the team that's

1206
00:53:14.579 --> 00:53:16.980
hub.

1207
00:53:17.039 --> 00:53:18.960
You could do it in Canberra Rama.

1208
00:53:19.019 --> 00:53:19.500
Cobar.

1209
00:53:19.860 --> 00:53:21.719
I wish I could.

1210
00:53:21.719 --> 00:53:22.860
Let's not go that far.

1211
00:53:22.920 --> 00:53:24.719
I said near population.

1212
00:53:24.780 --> 00:53:27.900
I wish I could believe that Brian Hale saw anyone working in

1213
00:53:27.900 --> 00:53:30.719
Britain at that point knew enough about Canberra to have put that

1214
00:53:30.719 --> 00:53:31.800
much thought into it.

1215
00:53:31.860 --> 00:53:34.619
Well, remember, I think when the Sydney overtake Melbourne again

1216
00:53:34.619 --> 00:53:37.500
as the larger city in Australia, and now Melbourne's probably

1217
00:53:37.500 --> 00:53:38.460
about to overtake Sydney again.

1218
00:53:38.460 --> 00:53:41.699
It's not inconceivable that even though it was a parliament house

1219
00:53:41.699 --> 00:53:45.539
in a paddock in 1968, you can imagine that 100 years from there

1220
00:53:45.539 --> 00:53:46.860
being the larger city in Australia.

1221
00:53:46.980 --> 00:53:48.420
I don't think you can.

1222
00:53:48.420 --> 00:53:51.599
I don't think I don't think that much thought went into it, but it

1223
00:53:51.599 --> 00:53:52.800
was just...

1224
00:53:52.800 --> 00:53:56.519
It's just, I think it's a shame that Brian Hales can have these

1225
00:53:56.519 --> 00:53:58.079
big concepts.

1226
00:53:58.139 --> 00:54:01.679
And like you said earlier, Jeremy, you know, not to a whole lot

1227
00:54:01.679 --> 00:54:02.280
with them.

1228
00:54:02.340 --> 00:54:04.860
Like he has the concepts, then it doesn't develop them.

1229
00:54:04.920 --> 00:54:09.059
And so the storytelling is so childish on some level.

1230
00:54:09.119 --> 00:54:11.340
And a lot of it is covered by the direction.

1231
00:54:11.400 --> 00:54:13.380
Like we said, you know, you get carried along by it.

1232
00:54:13.440 --> 00:54:16.920
But to have set up this world and then have Eldred as someone

1233
00:54:16.920 --> 00:54:20.880
who's basically built a rocket in his backyard with a launch pad

1234
00:54:20.880 --> 00:54:23.400
and everything, which is ready to go the following day, and then

1235
00:54:23.400 --> 00:54:27.000
these 3 people turn up and they're like, you know rockets, you can

1236
00:54:27.000 --> 00:54:29.579
pilot it for us, and then they go up to the moon without

1237
00:54:29.579 --> 00:54:30.719
spacesuits and things.

1238
00:54:30.780 --> 00:54:33.840
There's so many levels removed there which just takes it away from

1239
00:54:33.840 --> 00:54:35.639
being a good production.

1240
00:54:35.699 --> 00:54:37.679
Isn't that ambassadors of death, though?

1241
00:54:37.739 --> 00:54:39.599
The doctor at least is in the space suit.

1242
00:54:39.659 --> 00:54:40.079
Thank you very much.

1243
00:54:40.139 --> 00:54:43.500
Also, they are at the space centre.

1244
00:54:43.559 --> 00:54:46.079
And he's also a member of unit and everything.

1245
00:54:46.139 --> 00:54:46.800
Exactly.

1246
00:54:46.860 --> 00:54:50.820
The funny thing, I love that when Miss Kelly just turns to Radner

1247
00:54:50.820 --> 00:54:52.739
and goes, who are these people?

1248
00:54:52.739 --> 00:54:53.579
And like, what?

1249
00:54:53.639 --> 00:54:57.000
And he's like, and he's just like, no, they're, Rather's just like

1250
00:54:57.000 --> 00:54:57.960
they're perfect, you know?

1251
00:54:58.019 --> 00:55:02.039
Also, by the way, I laugh every single time they mention Radner's

1252
00:55:02.039 --> 00:55:06.000
1st name when Eldrin goes, but listen, Julian, I'm like, Julian

1253
00:55:06.000 --> 00:55:07.199
that's not a Julian.

1254
00:55:07.260 --> 00:55:11.400
That guy's many things, but he is not, his name is Julian Radnor.

1255
00:55:11.460 --> 00:55:12.840
No, no, no, no, no.

1256
00:55:12.900 --> 00:55:14.880
Well, Eldred's Daniel.

1257
00:55:14.940 --> 00:55:16.199
Daniel and Julie.

1258
00:55:16.800 --> 00:55:21.059
The funny thing is with Miss Kelly saying that, it's almost like

1259
00:55:21.059 --> 00:55:22.500
she said the quiet part out loud.

1260
00:55:22.559 --> 00:55:25.320
It's sort of the part that we're not supposed to point.

1261
00:55:25.380 --> 00:55:27.420
Yeah, we're not... not supposed to bring that up.

1262
00:55:27.780 --> 00:55:31.019
But also it's a little bit like, well, you know, the doctor's

1263
00:55:31.019 --> 00:55:33.179
passed his exams and Zoe's very smart.

1264
00:55:33.239 --> 00:55:34.980
Why are they sending the dumb scots?

1265
00:55:36.420 --> 00:55:37.739
They do actually...

1266
00:55:37.800 --> 00:55:39.480
He makes his way onto the thing.

1267
00:55:39.539 --> 00:55:41.760
You know, he isn't initially going to be included.

1268
00:55:41.820 --> 00:55:43.019
Yeah.

1269
00:55:43.019 --> 00:55:44.579
And the other childish aspect.

1270
00:55:44.639 --> 00:55:48.840
I find is there's way too much hiding behind filing cabinets and

1271
00:55:48.840 --> 00:55:52.559
doors and walls in full view of the ice warriors, but that's a

1272
00:55:52.559 --> 00:55:52.860
bit.

1273
00:55:52.860 --> 00:55:54.000
Have you seen Doctor Who?

1274
00:55:54.119 --> 00:55:59.519
No, I just saying that despite, yes, despite the brilliant

1275
00:55:59.519 --> 00:56:04.980
direction, otherwise, that is the one area where it's not as

1276
00:56:04.980 --> 00:56:08.039
successful. basically that scene when the ice warrior comes into

1277
00:56:08.039 --> 00:56:11.699
the blasting room with the laces and there's people hiding behind

1278
00:56:11.699 --> 00:56:15.179
filing cabinets within full view.

1279
00:56:15.239 --> 00:56:17.039
And the iceware, yeah, it looks straight at him.

1280
00:56:17.159 --> 00:56:20.159
There's a pretty great one, though, where Jamie and Zoe are hiding

1281
00:56:20.159 --> 00:56:23.340
behind a really sort of excitingly designed one.

1282
00:56:23.400 --> 00:56:26.699
Yes, that was, you know, where the ice warrior sort of comes in.

1283
00:56:26.760 --> 00:56:29.579
But it genuinely can't see them because they're properly

1284
00:56:29.579 --> 00:56:30.059
occluded.

1285
00:56:30.119 --> 00:56:31.079
A little bit more shadow.

1286
00:56:31.139 --> 00:56:33.480
I mean, it's difficult in monochrome because it's a little bit

1287
00:56:33.480 --> 00:56:34.500
more shadow and so on.

1288
00:56:34.559 --> 00:56:38.460
Just to reclaim everything, how great is that launch sequence

1289
00:56:38.460 --> 00:56:41.639
early on where the letters and the patterns are projected on

1290
00:56:41.639 --> 00:56:46.199
Kelly's face, the numbers and the computer is really weird.

1291
00:56:46.260 --> 00:56:48.119
Like that talking computer is really strange.

1292
00:56:48.179 --> 00:56:51.900
Just so many nice touches that, you know, I can forgive the fact

1293
00:56:51.900 --> 00:56:54.960
that ice warriors are in those little tiny helmets and it's

1294
00:56:54.960 --> 00:56:55.619
probably all steamed.

1295
00:56:55.679 --> 00:56:57.300
Their breath is steaming up.

1296
00:56:57.300 --> 00:56:58.079
They're little goggles.

1297
00:56:58.139 --> 00:56:58.800
They can't see.

1298
00:56:58.920 --> 00:56:59.519
They can't see a thing.

1299
00:57:00.780 --> 00:57:04.199
Every time we're not seeing them, they're pulling off the helmet

1300
00:57:04.199 --> 00:57:07.260
going, Neville, can you see anything in this?

1301
00:57:07.739 --> 00:57:08.760
put it back on.

1302
00:57:08.820 --> 00:57:10.980
You've got to redesign these helmets.

1303
00:57:11.039 --> 00:57:13.679
Isn't that where they say I'm dying for a fag?

1304
00:57:13.800 --> 00:57:16.500
Is that an adventurous face?

1305
00:57:16.559 --> 00:57:16.980
Yes, yes.

1306
00:57:16.980 --> 00:57:20.940
Do they have your family?

1307
00:57:21.659 --> 00:57:25.559
I just, I think it's a shame because there's so much that is good

1308
00:57:25.559 --> 00:57:28.139
about this story and there's so much that's interesting and the

1309
00:57:28.139 --> 00:57:28.619
concepts.

1310
00:57:28.679 --> 00:57:31.860
Brian Hales, for some reason, seems to default to childish

1311
00:57:31.860 --> 00:57:34.739
storytelling, and I think that could have been very easily fixed.

1312
00:57:49.920 --> 00:57:54.840
So, I think we sort of mentioned before that the ice worries when

1313
00:57:54.840 --> 00:57:59.460
they first arrive are very, very much a base under siege monster.

1314
00:57:59.460 --> 00:58:02.820
And here, while this story does feature a base under siege, it's

1315
00:58:02.820 --> 00:58:05.280
not really a base under siege story.

1316
00:58:05.579 --> 00:58:07.440
No, I agree with that.

1317
00:58:07.500 --> 00:58:10.619
They invert it, which is really interesting.

1318
00:58:10.679 --> 00:58:14.699
So, I think when the base under sieges get gruelling is because

1319
00:58:14.699 --> 00:58:18.000
it's all about what happens if they get in, right?

1320
00:58:18.059 --> 00:58:19.260
And that's and take over.

1321
00:58:19.320 --> 00:58:21.599
And I think this is not about that.

1322
00:58:21.659 --> 00:58:25.679
This is about initially what happens if they get in, but then it

1323
00:58:25.679 --> 00:58:29.219
becomes more about what happens if they get out and spread from

1324
00:58:29.219 --> 00:58:29.820
here.

1325
00:58:29.880 --> 00:58:30.539
Yeah, yeah.

1326
00:58:30.539 --> 00:58:32.940
And that broadens out the canvas a lot.

1327
00:58:33.000 --> 00:58:37.739
Um, so it becomes about these sort of reversals of fortune.

1328
00:58:37.800 --> 00:58:39.179
How do we keep them on there?

1329
00:58:39.239 --> 00:58:40.500
Okay, now they've escaped.

1330
00:58:40.559 --> 00:58:42.000
How do we find out what they're doing?

1331
00:58:42.059 --> 00:58:45.539
And then how do we push them back to the moon base and how do we

1332
00:58:45.539 --> 00:58:45.960
limit them?

1333
00:58:46.019 --> 00:58:50.099
And it means that there's reversals of fortune and reversals of

1334
00:58:50.099 --> 00:58:53.400
territory within the moon base and earth.

1335
00:58:53.519 --> 00:58:56.579
And I can only assume that's a Terrence Dix thing.

1336
00:58:56.639 --> 00:58:59.519
Because that is exactly what he does in war games when he has to

1337
00:58:59.519 --> 00:58:59.940
stretch.

1338
00:59:00.000 --> 00:59:04.320
He moves the pieces around in an interesting way on the chessboard

1339
00:59:04.320 --> 00:59:05.219
that's unexpected.

1340
00:59:05.280 --> 00:59:07.139
But that's what I really noticed this time.

1341
00:59:07.199 --> 00:59:11.219
I'm like, oh, it's the base is important because it's an airport

1342
00:59:11.219 --> 00:59:15.000
because it's a hub because it's a way to get to more dangerous

1343
00:59:15.000 --> 00:59:17.760
vulnerable places, and that makes it a lot more interesting than

1344
00:59:17.760 --> 00:59:19.079
some remote location.

1345
00:59:19.139 --> 00:59:22.380
There's the sequence in episode four, I think, where the ice

1346
00:59:22.380 --> 00:59:26.880
warrior, T-Mats down into Commander Radna's face, and it's

1347
00:59:26.880 --> 00:59:30.119
actually quite a confronting sequence because it blasts all of

1348
00:59:30.119 --> 00:59:33.119
these soldiers, and, you know, Radna looks out the door, you know

1349
00:59:33.119 --> 00:59:36.360
fabulous Ronald Lee hummed being amazing as ever.

1350
00:59:36.420 --> 00:59:37.860
In his adult diapers.

1351
00:59:38.340 --> 00:59:40.079
Oh my god.

1352
00:59:40.139 --> 00:59:41.039
What were they thinking?

1353
00:59:41.039 --> 00:59:44.400
When poor answer to George or something, turns on.

1354
00:59:45.659 --> 00:59:49.079
It's just what, who, what, that is a what, that is a kind of a

1355
00:59:49.079 --> 00:59:50.880
curious creative choice.

1356
00:59:50.940 --> 00:59:52.920
Well, I think it depends on which one.

1357
00:59:52.980 --> 00:59:53.400
Oh my god.

1358
00:59:54.119 --> 00:59:59.039
I mean, it literally is the we have to wear space clothes there.

1359
00:59:59.099 --> 01:00:00.599
Yeah, yeah.

1360
01:00:00.659 --> 01:00:02.159
You would never do it in the new series.

1361
01:00:02.219 --> 01:00:04.679
You would have him wear a suit because he's a...

1362
01:00:04.679 --> 01:00:05.579
With a different colour.

1363
01:00:05.639 --> 01:00:06.539
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

1364
01:00:06.599 --> 01:00:10.679
It was Toby Hadoke, who sat on our Bleak 7 podcast, maximum power

1365
01:00:10.679 --> 01:00:13.559
that Ronald Lee Hunt always gives a performance where you can

1366
01:00:13.559 --> 01:00:15.179
believe there's a briefcase nearby.

1367
01:00:15.659 --> 01:00:17.940
He's actually got a briefcase.

1368
01:00:18.000 --> 01:00:18.420
It does.

1369
01:00:18.420 --> 01:00:21.480
Why do you need a briefcase where you have team match?

1370
01:00:21.539 --> 01:00:23.219
you know, you have a computer network computer.

1371
01:00:23.280 --> 01:00:24.119
They don't understand.

1372
01:00:24.179 --> 01:00:25.619
Well, they didn't have networks.

1373
01:00:25.679 --> 01:00:27.360
And that was a big deal, wasn't it?

1374
01:00:27.360 --> 01:00:28.679
Because cycling back to what I was saying.

1375
01:00:28.739 --> 01:00:29.760
You have that great sequence.

1376
01:00:29.760 --> 01:00:33.059
And then like you were saying, Jeremy, It's when they get out on

1377
01:00:33.059 --> 01:00:37.019
location, that they become a real menace because now it's stomping

1378
01:00:37.019 --> 01:00:37.920
through the English countryside.

1379
01:00:38.039 --> 01:00:42.239
And it's like the Salurians where the virus gets out and suddenly

1380
01:00:42.239 --> 01:00:44.639
for the 1st time, the rest of the world is at stake. as opposed to

1381
01:00:44.639 --> 01:00:45.539
just us in this base.

1382
01:00:45.599 --> 01:00:48.599
It's no longer the base under siege. the world under siege.

1383
01:00:48.659 --> 01:00:48.960
Exactly.

1384
01:00:48.960 --> 01:00:52.920
It's wonderful how that's done by just increasingly urgent

1385
01:00:52.920 --> 01:00:55.260
narration from the fantastic computer.

1386
01:00:55.320 --> 01:00:57.179
It's so wonderful.

1387
01:00:57.239 --> 01:00:58.800
People talking urgently in corridors.

1388
01:00:58.860 --> 01:01:00.119
That's what makes Dr. Who.

1389
01:01:00.179 --> 01:01:02.099
You don't need to see the people dying all around the world

1390
01:01:02.099 --> 01:01:02.579
starving.

1391
01:01:02.699 --> 01:01:03.840
Although that is pretty great.

1392
01:01:03.960 --> 01:01:04.679
Oh, yeah.

1393
01:01:04.679 --> 01:01:06.780
And you don't use the wall, like 24 hour news.

1394
01:01:06.840 --> 01:01:09.420
Oh, yeah, but you just get to Paddington Station, isn't it?

1395
01:01:09.420 --> 01:01:11.760
Commander Rad not going to the corridor, looking out stage left

1396
01:01:11.760 --> 01:01:13.800
and sewing, it's killed all the guards.

1397
01:01:14.639 --> 01:01:17.699
Oh, we don't need to give them any fees.

1398
01:01:17.760 --> 01:01:19.559
Any actors fees we have?

1399
01:01:19.619 --> 01:01:21.840
Speaking of which, Phips.

1400
01:01:21.900 --> 01:01:23.340
Yeah, Phipps.

1401
01:01:23.340 --> 01:01:24.719
Yeah, he disappears.

1402
01:01:24.780 --> 01:01:25.860
It doesn't disappear.

1403
01:01:25.920 --> 01:01:28.320
He gets killed in the little hole in the little ventilator hole.

1404
01:01:28.380 --> 01:01:29.099
He seems Zoe.

1405
01:01:29.159 --> 01:01:30.420
Do we see it?

1406
01:01:30.480 --> 01:01:31.260
No, we don't.

1407
01:01:31.260 --> 01:01:34.079
Yes, the ice where he turns to him and he goes, look up, Zoe.

1408
01:01:34.139 --> 01:01:35.579
And it's the whole thing.

1409
01:01:35.639 --> 01:01:38.820
But you don't see him crumple and goes, No, cut quickly, Nathan.

1410
01:01:38.880 --> 01:01:40.260
It was cut too quickly.

1411
01:01:40.320 --> 01:01:42.000
I thought he ducked in time.

1412
01:01:42.059 --> 01:01:43.739
He's terrific, by the way.

1413
01:01:43.800 --> 01:01:44.940
Like, do you know what I mean?

1414
01:01:44.940 --> 01:01:48.480
That whole sequence early on when he's, it's so cool.

1415
01:01:48.539 --> 01:01:50.940
He's like, he goes into that little room and you see him figure

1416
01:01:50.940 --> 01:01:54.539
out, okay, I need to shut down this because he, and then I need to

1417
01:01:54.539 --> 01:01:57.659
build that and he's building the solar thing and it's just like

1418
01:01:57.659 --> 01:01:58.139
he's great.

1419
01:01:58.199 --> 01:02:00.840
And then he gets that little great scene with Zoe where he gets

1420
01:02:00.840 --> 01:02:01.139
scared.

1421
01:02:01.199 --> 01:02:03.539
Moving things out of the way to find the plug.

1422
01:02:03.599 --> 01:02:07.139
But just the thing about the, not the big, big, big, um, liberator

1423
01:02:07.139 --> 01:02:09.900
gun ones that go into the wall, but the plugs on the floor.

1424
01:02:09.960 --> 01:02:11.400
Of course, you know...

1425
01:02:11.460 --> 01:02:13.980
You little powerboard, that is just UK plugs.

1426
01:02:14.039 --> 01:02:17.159
Because when I was watching, they said 19, they were space plugs.

1427
01:02:17.219 --> 01:02:19.800
Yes, because it looked like these heavy duty things.

1428
01:02:19.800 --> 01:02:22.139
Because of course our plugs in Australia and like yours in North

1429
01:02:22.139 --> 01:02:25.500
America are much smaller than these great big British things that

1430
01:02:25.500 --> 01:02:28.139
were obviously designed, you know, when electricity was new.

1431
01:02:28.980 --> 01:02:31.920
And they haven't bothered to upgrade themselves.

1432
01:02:31.980 --> 01:02:34.320
And I thought, oh, they're weird space plugs.

1433
01:02:34.380 --> 01:02:37.320
It was built by Winston Churchill. change it.

1434
01:02:37.380 --> 01:02:38.760
It was built by Churchill.

1435
01:02:38.820 --> 01:02:43.500
One of the things I love too is other 60s Doctor Who would have a

1436
01:02:43.500 --> 01:02:47.699
tedious, tedious scene where some man says like, you're just a

1437
01:02:47.699 --> 01:02:48.239
computer.

1438
01:02:48.300 --> 01:02:51.059
You don't care about, you know, and it would be some, but she's

1439
01:02:51.059 --> 01:02:51.599
never liked that.

1440
01:02:51.659 --> 01:02:54.239
She's seen as tremendously important and respectful.

1441
01:02:54.840 --> 01:02:59.880
And even when she goes to go do things, she's taking action and

1442
01:02:59.880 --> 01:03:03.420
being in charge and saying to command Radner, like, listen, you

1443
01:03:03.420 --> 01:03:06.719
may have these concerns, but I'm the only one who can do this.

1444
01:03:06.780 --> 01:03:10.260
Now, we can argue how silly it is that she's the only person on

1445
01:03:10.260 --> 01:03:14.280
earth that can fix team at that's a bit insane.

1446
01:03:14.340 --> 01:03:19.440
Yeah, I guess, but I do love that she's never like, she's never

1447
01:03:19.440 --> 01:03:23.099
really put down and she's never really infantilized or criticised

1448
01:03:23.099 --> 01:03:27.659
in the way that so many of the arguably like positive

1449
01:03:27.659 --> 01:03:31.440
representations of women in Doctor Who during this time invariably

1450
01:03:31.440 --> 01:03:33.539
get made fun of in a scene or two.

1451
01:03:33.599 --> 01:03:35.460
And she doesn't really, which is great.

1452
01:03:35.519 --> 01:03:40.079
Everyone is reliably in awe of her, which is exactly how I feel

1453
01:03:40.079 --> 01:03:41.280
about her as well.

1454
01:03:41.340 --> 01:03:42.599
Yeah, and we never...

1455
01:03:42.659 --> 01:03:43.559
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1456
01:03:43.619 --> 01:03:45.300
And the performance is coming to the party.

1457
01:03:45.360 --> 01:03:48.719
The performance is absolutely occupying that.

1458
01:03:48.780 --> 01:03:50.340
Otherwise, I actually have to go above your head.

1459
01:03:50.460 --> 01:03:51.239
Like, all that.

1460
01:03:51.300 --> 01:03:52.019
Yeah, brilliant.

1461
01:03:52.079 --> 01:03:53.280
And she's really good.

1462
01:03:53.340 --> 01:03:55.980
She does loosen up slightly, you know, when she's on the moon base

1463
01:03:55.980 --> 01:03:58.079
with the others, but she never loses the edge.

1464
01:03:58.139 --> 01:03:59.159
She's really good.

1465
01:03:59.219 --> 01:03:59.699
Fantastic.

1466
01:03:59.699 --> 01:04:02.159
And you did that, you need that moment at the end where she has

1467
01:04:02.159 --> 01:04:06.119
her viral moment where she tossed some jelly babies and breaks

1468
01:04:06.119 --> 01:04:06.719
into a smile.

1469
01:04:09.000 --> 01:04:12.000
But it's extraordinary that even 5 years later.

1470
01:04:12.059 --> 01:04:14.219
I mean, I know Harry Sullivan's a different character, but even 5

1471
01:04:14.219 --> 01:04:17.820
years of production, later, you've got Harry making a point that

1472
01:04:17.820 --> 01:04:20.760
the chief minister is a woman, fancier woman being top of the

1473
01:04:20.760 --> 01:04:21.360
totem pole.

1474
01:04:21.420 --> 01:04:21.840
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1475
01:04:21.840 --> 01:04:26.340
Whereas you don't have Jamie saying, why is this?

1476
01:04:26.340 --> 01:04:26.760
How can she be?

1477
01:04:26.820 --> 01:04:27.599
in command, yes.

1478
01:04:27.659 --> 01:04:28.320
It's interesting.

1479
01:04:28.440 --> 01:04:29.760
Like, it's not even mentioned.

1480
01:04:29.820 --> 01:04:31.860
Which is the most refreshing thing.

1481
01:04:31.920 --> 01:04:35.340
It's not the Anne Travers moment of when, you know, what's a

1482
01:04:35.340 --> 01:04:37.380
pretty little girl like you're doing in a place like this.

1483
01:04:37.500 --> 01:04:41.219
And she basically has to sort of say, well, I wanted to become a

1484
01:04:41.219 --> 01:04:43.440
scientist to, I became a scientist.

1485
01:04:43.440 --> 01:04:46.139
And she's contemptuous of the soldier.

1486
01:04:46.500 --> 01:04:48.360
And we're meant to feel contemptuous of the soldier.

1487
01:04:48.420 --> 01:04:50.460
But nevertheless, there's someone asking that question.

1488
01:04:50.519 --> 01:04:53.460
Although it is supposed to be the 60s, not the distant future, not

1489
01:04:53.460 --> 01:04:54.239
100 years hence.

1490
01:04:54.360 --> 01:04:57.659
Well, I mean, we have the president of earth in front or in

1491
01:04:57.659 --> 01:04:57.780
space.

1492
01:04:57.900 --> 01:04:58.440
We do too.

1493
01:04:58.500 --> 01:05:00.480
Yeah, and that's not mentioned as being unusual.

1494
01:05:00.539 --> 01:05:02.219
Just going back to the base under siege thing, I just want to

1495
01:05:02.219 --> 01:05:04.679
redirect that point I made earlier about this being a more of a

1496
01:05:04.679 --> 01:05:07.019
pertly story in that regard, because it's not, it's not a straight

1497
01:05:07.019 --> 01:05:07.860
back to season five.

1498
01:05:07.920 --> 01:05:09.539
It's like Green Death.

1499
01:05:09.599 --> 01:05:12.780
You've got the kind of the bass, which is like the nut touch.

1500
01:05:12.840 --> 01:05:15.059
Then you've got global chemicals, which is effectively the

1501
01:05:15.059 --> 01:05:17.340
moonbase, which is where the villains are all that. then you've

1502
01:05:17.340 --> 01:05:18.239
got the then you've got the mind.

1503
01:05:18.300 --> 01:05:21.840
You've got that kind of dynamic setup that exists in lots of other

1504
01:05:21.840 --> 01:05:25.440
pertly stories as well. in space, same sort of deal, you know.

1505
01:05:25.500 --> 01:05:28.980
Well, I mean, the other thing is too, that the base is normally

1506
01:05:28.980 --> 01:05:32.940
isolated, which is a feature of it and it has been in the bases so

1507
01:05:32.940 --> 01:05:35.280
far and this base is just that close.

1508
01:05:35.340 --> 01:05:36.719
You know, you can walk...

1509
01:05:36.719 --> 01:05:39.599
Well, not with team actors, not when you, but, you know, just the

1510
01:05:39.599 --> 01:05:44.039
surprise of having Miss Kelly just walk onto the moon base. and

1511
01:05:44.039 --> 01:05:47.880
Fuchsium agreeing to just send them back with no problem at all

1512
01:05:47.880 --> 01:05:48.900
and they're just immediately back.

1513
01:05:48.960 --> 01:05:50.880
It's a function of the premise, isn't it?

1514
01:05:50.940 --> 01:05:53.880
Yeah, you're based under siege to lock out the monsters who are

1515
01:05:53.880 --> 01:05:54.480
besieging you.

1516
01:05:54.539 --> 01:05:55.500
You have to lock yourselves in.

1517
01:05:55.559 --> 01:05:56.219
Yes.

1518
01:05:56.280 --> 01:05:58.559
It has its cake and it eats it too, right?

1519
01:05:58.679 --> 01:06:00.179
So it does that it's remote.

1520
01:06:00.239 --> 01:06:01.559
It's so remote, it's on the moon.

1521
01:06:01.619 --> 01:06:05.880
But it also means that the threat can get right into your living

1522
01:06:05.880 --> 01:06:07.139
room in 2 seconds.

1523
01:06:07.199 --> 01:06:11.820
So it gets to be both, which is really, I think, a novel idea, a

1524
01:06:11.820 --> 01:06:12.599
way of dealing with it.

1525
01:06:36.659 --> 01:06:39.239
Well, that's all time we have this week.

1526
01:06:39.300 --> 01:06:43.139
We'll be back next week for a new year of teatime Dr. Mengala for

1527
01:06:43.139 --> 01:06:45.599
tots in the Soltarian experiment.

1528
01:06:45.659 --> 01:06:49.380
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts

1529
01:06:49.380 --> 01:06:53.099
and you can keep up with us on our website, 500yearDiary.com, where

1530
01:06:53.099 --> 01:06:55.980
you'll find our social media links as well as links to all of our

1531
01:06:55.980 --> 01:06:59.880
other podcasts, including our other Doctor Who podcasts, flight

1532
01:06:59.880 --> 01:07:03.179
through entirety, and the 2nd grade and bountiful Human Empire.

1533
01:07:03.239 --> 01:07:07.800
Until next time, can you all stop stealing Professor Eldred's

1534
01:07:07.800 --> 01:07:08.099
stuff?

1535
01:07:08.159 --> 01:07:09.539
It's really mean.

1536
01:07:09.599 --> 01:07:12.360
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

1537
01:07:12.420 --> 01:07:13.199
Good night.

1538
01:07:13.320 --> 01:07:14.099
Good night.

1539
01:07:14.159 --> 01:07:14.699
Bye bye.

1540
01:07:26.760 --> 01:07:30.539
That was 500 year diary, starring Nathan Bottomley, Peter

1541
01:07:30.539 --> 01:07:33.119
Griffiths, Simon Moore, and Jeremy Radick.

1542
01:07:33.179 --> 01:07:35.880
The theme was composed by Cameron Lamb.

1543
01:07:35.940 --> 01:07:39.480
This episode, the costumes are in the cupboard, was recorded on

1544
01:07:39.480 --> 01:07:43.619
the 23rd of March 2025 and released on the 11th of May.

1545
01:07:43.860 --> 01:07:48.420
There are just 4 more episodes left of the 2nd great and bountiful

1546
01:07:48.420 --> 01:07:49.679
human Empire, probably.

1547
01:07:49.739 --> 01:07:54.539
So head on over to greatandbountiful.com tomorrow to hear our hot

1548
01:07:54.539 --> 01:07:57.000
take on this week's new Doctor Who episode.

1549
01:07:57.059 --> 01:07:58.739
The story and the engine.

1550
01:08:11.340 --> 01:08:13.079
What do we think?

1551
01:08:13.139 --> 01:08:14.280
I think that might be it.

1552
01:08:14.340 --> 01:08:16.199
I think I think that's...

1553
01:08:16.260 --> 01:08:16.920
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1554
01:08:16.979 --> 01:08:17.760
That was really good.

1555
01:08:17.819 --> 01:08:19.380
I actually thought...

1556
01:08:19.380 --> 01:08:21.479
Yeah, no, no.

1557
01:08:21.539 --> 01:08:25.319
It's the other thing is, mentioning like the solar power, which is

1558
01:08:25.319 --> 01:08:26.699
an interesting thing rather than nuclear.

1559
01:08:26.760 --> 01:08:30.779
Weather control. is such a thing in the 60s and it doesn't really

1560
01:08:30.779 --> 01:08:32.699
come up in the 21st.

1561
01:08:32.880 --> 01:08:36.180
So we just had Adam here recording last week's episode.

1562
01:08:36.239 --> 01:08:39.119
And he said, it's an English thing.

1563
01:08:40.020 --> 01:08:42.180
I bet we've been Spanish.

1564
01:08:42.180 --> 01:08:43.979
Sunny days and all that.

1565
01:08:44.520 --> 01:08:45.300
Wasn't that a thing?

1566
01:08:45.420 --> 01:08:49.380
I think that what he said was, it's colonialism because it's like

1567
01:08:49.380 --> 01:08:51.720
they would go to these other countries where there was much nicer

1568
01:08:51.720 --> 01:08:52.140
weather.

1569
01:08:52.140 --> 01:08:54.659
And obviously they would bring all the good stuff back to

1570
01:08:54.659 --> 01:08:55.140
England.

1571
01:08:55.199 --> 01:08:57.420
Can we bring the weather back in some way?

1572
01:08:57.479 --> 01:08:58.380
Do you think?

1573
01:08:58.439 --> 01:09:00.300
And I think...

1574
01:09:00.300 --> 01:09:03.000
If I only even could stop it from rain during the... during the

1575
01:09:03.000 --> 01:09:03.720
test at Lords.

1576
01:09:03.779 --> 01:09:07.619
And of course, you know, like the Martians are invading England

1577
01:09:07.619 --> 01:09:11.220
with a thing that dissolves on contact with water.

1578
01:09:12.060 --> 01:09:15.180
So maybe there was methods.

1579
01:09:15.300 --> 01:09:18.960
Maybe there was method to Brian Hale's dry storytelling after

1580
01:09:18.960 --> 01:09:19.199
all.

1581
01:09:19.979 --> 01:09:23.880
But it's funny how weather's like, I mean, even the cloud seating

1582
01:09:23.880 --> 01:09:25.859
thing, that was something that they stopped doing trying to do in

1583
01:09:25.859 --> 01:09:26.399
the 80s.

1584
01:09:26.760 --> 01:09:27.779
Yeah, yeah, it was a thing.

1585
01:09:27.779 --> 01:09:28.739
I seem to remember that too.

1586
01:09:28.800 --> 01:09:31.079
But you've got that little device because this is the other

1587
01:09:31.079 --> 01:09:31.319
thing.

1588
01:09:31.380 --> 01:09:34.140
Like last night when I'm watching this, Jeremy, I'm sending

1589
01:09:34.140 --> 01:09:37.800
everyone little screen grams of all of the stupid, like there's

1590
01:09:37.800 --> 01:09:42.359
that wonderful light, the light that just has the word delay.

1591
01:09:42.720 --> 01:09:44.579
Isn't it wonderful?

1592
01:09:44.579 --> 01:09:47.399
I want that lies in my life somewhere.

1593
01:09:47.460 --> 01:09:51.420
And the, and the, you know, the scent graping that goes up to a

1594
01:09:51.420 --> 01:09:53.819
100 and that lamentable...

1595
01:09:53.819 --> 01:09:56.279
And the weather control...

1596
01:09:56.340 --> 01:09:58.079
We just have the series of 4 switches.

1597
01:09:58.199 --> 01:10:00.180
Well we can't see Scotland and Wales.

1598
01:10:01.260 --> 01:10:04.979
But presumably it's wet, like on the other side.

1599
01:10:05.039 --> 01:10:07.140
Yes, we're switching it from wet.

1600
01:10:09.359 --> 01:10:13.319
And there's also that terrific moment as well, which is a really

1601
01:10:13.319 --> 01:10:16.140
doctory moment and might be happening for the 1st time, Peter.

1602
01:10:16.199 --> 01:10:20.220
Let's see if this is right, where you've got Trouton on the floor

1603
01:10:20.279 --> 01:10:24.239
pulled a whole heap of wires out of the desk because the controls

1604
01:10:24.239 --> 01:10:27.960
are fused and he's trying to join them together to make the the

1605
01:10:27.960 --> 01:10:30.899
rain happen and he's just randomly joining bits of wine.

1606
01:10:30.960 --> 01:10:33.420
Oh, that doesn't that doesn't spark their point, right?

1607
01:10:35.699 --> 01:10:36.899
That's so Doctor Who.

1608
01:10:36.960 --> 01:10:38.880
It must be happening for the 1st time.

1609
01:10:38.939 --> 01:10:39.600
And it happens.

1610
01:10:39.659 --> 01:10:39.840
Yes.

1611
01:10:39.899 --> 01:10:42.060
So it's obviously Terrence, because that's the kind of thing that

1612
01:10:42.060 --> 01:10:43.380
happens a lot.

1613
01:10:43.380 --> 01:10:45.420
Yeah, it's carnival of monsters. touched this out.

1614
01:10:47.039 --> 01:10:51.060
But but he's got that wonderful moment too, where he pulls out

1615
01:10:51.060 --> 01:10:54.899
this gigantic rat's nest of wires and he goes, he says something

1616
01:10:54.899 --> 01:10:57.300
like chart and says, like, wow, this doesn't look too complicated

1617
01:10:57.300 --> 01:10:58.079
or something.

1618
01:10:58.140 --> 01:11:02.039
He says something funny. which is just so funny.

1619
01:11:02.100 --> 01:11:04.500
I mean, that's, yeah, it's so delightful.

1620
01:11:04.560 --> 01:11:08.640
Can we can we say that the water resolution is pretty lame and I

1621
01:11:08.640 --> 01:11:09.600
wish it was better than that?

1622
01:11:09.659 --> 01:11:10.979
It's pretty lame, right?

1623
01:11:11.039 --> 01:11:13.020
Oh, I think it's fun.

1624
01:11:13.079 --> 01:11:14.579
What kills the story?

1625
01:11:14.640 --> 01:11:15.720
What happens to the?

1626
01:11:15.779 --> 01:11:18.180
No, no, because the Martians, the Martians have originally just

1627
01:11:18.180 --> 01:11:20.699
all get the cold, get the common...

1628
01:11:20.760 --> 01:11:22.560
Yeah, common cold and war of the world.

1629
01:11:22.619 --> 01:11:23.159
Yes, exactly.

1630
01:11:23.220 --> 01:11:23.399
Yeah.

1631
01:11:23.460 --> 01:11:24.720
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1632
01:11:24.779 --> 01:11:25.079
Yeah.

1633
01:11:25.140 --> 01:11:28.859
So, I mean, it's a weakness that they that they hang a lantern

1634
01:11:28.859 --> 01:11:29.220
on.

1635
01:11:29.340 --> 01:11:29.880
Do you know what I mean?

1636
01:11:29.939 --> 01:11:33.420
Like there's a clear weakness and that's why they said, do we know

1637
01:11:33.420 --> 01:11:35.220
who the ice warrior is who gets sent to earth?

1638
01:11:35.340 --> 01:11:36.479
Sunny Caldin is?

1639
01:11:36.539 --> 01:11:37.439
Oh no doubt.

1640
01:11:37.500 --> 01:11:40.739
Yeah, because he's the one that makes the heroes. that makes the

1641
01:11:40.739 --> 01:11:41.460
woman crash her car.

1642
01:11:41.579 --> 01:11:42.479
He's taking a wheel.

1643
01:11:44.340 --> 01:11:45.779
What?

1644
01:11:45.779 --> 01:11:48.960
Yeah, he's having a smoke or something.

1645
01:11:49.020 --> 01:11:51.060
He goes off because he can't he can't obviously undress.

1646
01:11:51.119 --> 01:11:52.920
And it's during one of the pauses and things.

1647
01:11:52.979 --> 01:11:54.600
And he's on Hampstead Heath.

1648
01:11:54.659 --> 01:11:55.800
Yes, or wherever it is.

1649
01:11:55.920 --> 01:11:57.060
It has it is, right?

1650
01:11:58.560 --> 01:12:00.479
Oh, that's delightful.

1651
01:12:00.479 --> 01:12:02.220
Ferguson says that that's...

1652
01:12:02.220 --> 01:12:04.560
I wouldn't have been the 1st person to pull out his Willy on

1653
01:12:04.560 --> 01:12:05.220
Hamstead.

1654
01:12:05.279 --> 01:12:06.239
Oh, I should think not.

1655
01:12:07.380 --> 01:12:10.619
I don't know whether it was a wee mate.

1656
01:12:10.619 --> 01:12:14.279
That's one of those stories that enters fan mythology because it's

1657
01:12:14.279 --> 01:12:15.840
recounted in Doctor Who a Celebration.

1658
01:12:15.960 --> 01:12:18.239
Oh, actually, yes, yes.

1659
01:12:18.300 --> 01:12:21.060
That's the most important tone to Paul.

1660
01:12:21.119 --> 01:12:22.380
That's right.

1661
01:12:23.159 --> 01:12:24.600
All right.

1662
01:12:24.659 --> 01:12:25.739
Well, I think we might wind that up.

1663
01:12:25.800 --> 01:12:26.340
That was really fun.

1664
01:12:26.399 --> 01:12:27.659
That was that was excellent.