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This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 09:07:17

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to 500 Year Diary, the only Doctor Who podcast broadcasting from over 250 kilometres away from the nearest T-Mat reception centre.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Jeremy.

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I'm pizza, and I'm Simon.

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It's the 25th of January 1969.

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It's been just over a year since the doctor 1st met the ice warriors and tonight 66000000 people have tuned in to see him do it again.

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But can this story turn a one off race of sequined fibreglass Martian warrior lizards into an exciting new mortal enemy for the doctor?

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Let's find out as we discuss the seeds of death.

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Before we really get going, when I watched this last night, it was substantially better visually than the moon base was.

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We have a much better copy.

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Well, for start, Moonbase is 405 line and um, so you'd get a 625 line.

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I don't know whether we have the negatives of this story.

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I don't think we do.

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No, I don't think we do. which would always help.

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Episode 5 is a 35 mil print.

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He's not pristine prints returned from the BFI as well.

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Oh, they may have been, yes, but I think the BF5 names.

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Anyway, that kind of details are a discussion for a different kind of podcast, I think. don't know.

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But I actually thought, I saw your, I saw your comment about that and I wondered whether, uh, because the thing that struck me is how huge everything seemed.

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Everything feels quite large to set, but it is still studio D at lime growth.

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Both of them are shot in the same studio.

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Um, I think it's the direction.

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The director is just so much better at creating space.

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Maurice Barry, I think is a good jobbing director.

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He covers everything.

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It's all sort of quite tight, whereas I think you've got a lot more imagination from Michael Ferguson here, and it really makes it incredibly punchy.

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Yeah, Michael Ferguson is the absolute MVP of this story.

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We've talked about before that the director is the indispensable person, the sole indispensable person on a doctor who production and he just proves that because I think the script, we'll talk about this later, is sluggish and quite childish.

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But what Michael Ferguson brings to it.

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He's fantastic visual storytelling.

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There's lots of big close-ups and focus pools.

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There are point of view shots.

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I don't know if this is the 1st time we've had a point of view shot from the point of view of the enemy entering the base. one of the Daleks, I do.

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Oh, up on the points.

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Simon, I stand, correct?

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You've just, I want your fan card back now.

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I can't have my fan card.

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I earned it.

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And there's also, you know, it's sustained for long periods as well in the storytelling.

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He shoots through things and around things, issues.

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High establishing shots of that corner of the studio where they keep ambushing ice warriors with the 2 laser things.

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Oh, that's such a great shot.

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It's so nice And then low shots as well.

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There's a shot early on, like in episode 2 where he shooting fuchsion from a low angle.

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It's the 1st shuttle of scene between the legs of the ice warriors and it just, it makes the sets look huge.

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To do that, though, everyone's obviously hitting their mark in a way that going back to what we were talking about 2 episodes ago, in a way that people weren't hitting their marks in something like Darlic Invasions of Earth.

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And so that allows you to have those kind of compositions and it is all stagey and contrived the way kind of everyone moves around each other and stands and someone's in the background and someone's in the foreground and people is one of those things where people aren't talking directly at each other.

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It's like, you know, turn around so I can hear you.

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But that all increases it.

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And I love all of the, the, the shots direct camera, especially during the spaceship launch.

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Yeah, he does so much stuff that's really incredible. like um, quick cutting, which is something that they weren't still, they were still experimenting in.

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So lots of quick, which is odd for the for the studio stuff.

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I love the choice he makes to shoot ice warriors in close-up and not to do as many full body shots of them or if he's going to do a full body shot.

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Like you say, he's doing it from low or high to make them look bigger or smaller and more imposing.

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And so you get less of the stuff that happens in the ice warriors cereal where they're just kind of standing there, you know, looking like a guy in a costume, right?

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And so all these shots and the print is beautiful of like the ice lord's face and you see how really quite good the makeup is, like they, their lips and stuff can really move.

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Um, and then the location work when he gets into film, like, I love, he shot chasing with, like, one hallway, Patrick Chowton running through the moon base, the, and he inserts stuff he shot on film with the mirrors and the, and the reflective surfaces to make that space look much, much bigger and, like, they have way more than one corridor.

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Yeah, Tony, what could be a really boring corridor sequence inside?

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really dynamic.

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It's so exciting.

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And then, especially the late story location work with the ice warrior kind of rampaging over the countryside with all the sunlight and everything.

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Ferguson, unfortunately, I think didn't direct enough.

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Like, he should have been directing that show into the 80s because he really just knows what pace is and knows how to open up a story in a way that's difficult to do.

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That shot that you just mentioned with the Ice Warrior with the sunlight behind it is the same shot that he will then use in the ambassadors of Dad.

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Yeah, the clause of Axis.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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I think, frankly, it's Douglas Canfield level direction.

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Absolutely.

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He only does the 4 stories.

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The war machines is the other one, but I also think it's no coincidence that he was very young.

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He's only 30 when he shoots this story.

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And so he's got a huge career ahead of him.

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He's a dynamic director on both single camera on location and multicam in the studio and that is the gold for Doctor Who, someone who can pull off the location work and the studio work on multicam.

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It's rarer than you'd think.

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And what he does is he works within the system.

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He pushes the boundaries without breaking them.

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We talked a couple of weeks ago about Richard Martin.

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He pushes the boundaries, he breaks it.

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It doesn't work.

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This works beautifully in the same way that Douglas Canfield's direction on the web of fear does.

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And also, I have to say, Derek Martinez.

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I think he does direct the Ice Warriors very well, but what Michael Ferguson is just a more dynamic director.

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He's always moving the cameras.

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So that scene in episode one, where the regulars leave the Tartars and then wander into Eldred's Museum, the camera goes with them all the way into the set.

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It would have been very easy for that not to work, but he's just got control of his studio.

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Well, same with all the tunnel stuff, too.

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I always love tunnel stuff.

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Like they've got that part where they're hiding behind a wall that's like right next to the scene where all the bad guys are and it kind of doesn't work.

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But here, they really, he really oversaw with the set designer, the design of the set.

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So there's that wonderful part where Phipps and Zoe are trying to sneak in through that great that's on the floor.

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So they built the rost, like he's basically taken advantage of the rostrum and built the little gateway right where they can crouch in and come in.

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So it gives a sense of dimensionality to the space.

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It's not just another room that's got a wall.

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It feels like a tunnel.

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So it's really well done.

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It's, I was blown away this time watching it, how, how good the direction was.

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It's really just the MVP of the of the show.

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And speaking of that, this I do have right, Simon.

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This is the 1st instance of someone using maintenance shafts to get covertly from place to place.

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I would have sworn.

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Tearingly should introduce that, but no.

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He does use it later.

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But it's interesting.

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The other thing, I mean, Nathan, you commented that how much better this looks than the moonbase, which is, you know, obviously the previous episode in this podcast series.

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For me, when I 1st saw Seeds of Death, it was, you know, the omnibus on the VHS, which I bought at great expense, at some point, and our only other experience of trouting stories had been mind robbing crotons.

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As you say, of course, their only experience had been the repeat of the crotons.

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So basically what I was stunned by.

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I mean, I almost did, especially because of the expense, I almost didn't buy it because I was so disappointed by how primitive those stories felt and how, I mean, I love the crotons now, but how dull it seemed and how cheap and old-fashioned.

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The seeds of death is only one story after an extra...

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No it's the next story after the coffee.

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Because it's me.

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I have to have it in my family.

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I'll take it.

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It's next.

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I have lifetime days.

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The enormous leap between the crotons in this is just stunning.

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We talked a little bit about this last week, about the way that the quality of productions just sort of goes up and down.

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There's an overall trend, but from week to week, things, you know, some things are just extraordinarily brilliant and some things are kind of less so.

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Yeah.

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We also talked about the fact there's never really a definitive point.

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Things happen in fits and bursts.

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So yes, this is a massive step up from the crotons, but the crotons was a massive step down from the invasion.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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It's a thing about this story.

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I just want to touch on what Simon was saying there about the video release.

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This is an important story in the narrative of Doctor Who on Home Video because not only was it the 1st black and white and Trouton story released in 1985.

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It was also one of the 1st black and white releases on DVD. in 2003.

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I think what came before it was Tomas Sidemen and the Aztecs.

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Yes, but that's because they never got round to re-releasing it on video episodic format, which they had done to many of the other ones that they released only as omnibuses.

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That's right Omnibi.

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It was.

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No.

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Omnipus.

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It was a revelation. when it came out on DVD because comparing it to that very washed out video release taken from a terrible print.

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Suddenly you had contrast and you had the motion and the clarity was restored to the studio sequences because it was the 1st edition to be vid fired, that process.

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Yep.

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And it totally changed my idea of what 60s Doctor Who must have looked like when it was transmitted.

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But the great thing about that omnibus VHS release was because the quality of each of the episodes was so different.

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So you knew where the edit in the episode was.

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And the jump, like literally, because episode one was really bad.

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And then, of course, you know, by the time you get to episode five, which is a 35 mil print, it's pristine.

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It was extraordinary that release.

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I interviewed Michael Ferguson.

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Of course I did.

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In Klang.

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She dropped this.

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What can I say on ubiquitous?

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In 1998, Sansfield, and immediately just knew that you were in the company of someone who had a really far-ranging and correct view of Doctor Who for him.

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It was just kind of, you know, something that he did and it was weekly television, but he just knew how to approach it and how to create magic within those limitations.

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And I think it's no surprise that he went on.

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A lot of people who worked on Doctor Who sort of peaked in sort of a 10 year period and then were never heard of again.

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Michael Ferguson went on to have a long and storied history in television.

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The key things he went onto was sort of one off dramas and series in sort of the 1970s and 80s.

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But then he became producer of a series of high volume quality soap, like casualty, and the bill, and EastEnders, which played perfectly to his skill set because he knew how to turn out good material under the limitations that were placed on him.

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And I think that's so evident here.

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This is clearly just Doctor Who that is made extremely well with what they've got.

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Yes.

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He goes on and does ambassadors after this.

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Right.

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And I know ambassadors is not a story that is highly rated by mini, but I think one of the reasons I love it so much is because it's directed by Michael Ferguson, because it's got punch.

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And the clause of Axos clearly would have been a much worse story without his mature flair.

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Just because I'll never get to say this because I won't be on the ambassador's one, but when John Pertis, you know, says with all that intensity and that urgency, cut it open, you know, and there's that great cliffhanger about just cutting it an astronaut out of a spaceship, right?

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And there really hasn't been much that's happened weirdly enough, but he puts so much just vim and energy into it.

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It just works perfectly.

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Exactly.

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And one of the things that people like to critique about classic Doctor Who particularly, including, I think, the people who have made it in the 21st century, is the whole thing, they deride it as talking urgently in corridors.

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No, that is why it's brilliant.

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And that's what you've got an awful lot of here.

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You've got heightened performances that are all basically on the same level and that's the director doing that in the rehearsals.

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They're making sure that everyone's on the same page and they are talking, talking with urgency and they're, they're following up each line with another line and they're, and even if it's just, you know, oh my god, someone dropped a tissue over there, it heightens the excitement level and that's like your cut it open thing.

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It's urgent.

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There's something at stake. something to do with the cutting as well.

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Like you're talking about Jeremy there. like that cliffhanger and ambassadors cuts at exactly the right moment.

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Here, I mean, if you go back to the Dalek extermination effects under Richard Martin and something like the chase, you cut away to a language shot and then it takes 2 seconds for the studio footage to turn -and then you linger too long on the shot.

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Whereas here, what you have is the wide shot.

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You have the big close-up of the person in terror that they're about to be blasted.

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And then a very quick shot of the Mirlon, which is the reflective surface, which they're using to do the ice horror effect, and a burst of the sound effect, and then straight back out to the scene.

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Exactly.

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It stuns me that they were able to do that, you know, with the same vision mixing technology.

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You know, this is not has not been put together shot by shot.

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This is all someone operating vision mixer, isn't it?

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Mostly, yeah.

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And I also think he cuts in an interesting way, like in lesser things they say, kill him, and then it's like a super like you were saying, Simon, a super long time.

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But like here, he makes the iceware seem really scary because the Lord comes in in the beginning when the 2 workers are in this moon base and he says, kill them, and they are dead in seconds, right?

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And then there's just fuchsium standing there.

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He takes all the air out of everything, which, as a directoral choice, always makes everything have more impact.

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And so, yeah, he decilifies it in a way. like he takes the silly out of it.

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And why?

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Why is it so hard?

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Why does he do it when others can't in the, you know, going back to the previously mentioned crotons?

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You know, there are sequences where, and Crotons is by a good director.

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Or previous worth later on?

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There are sequences where actors are waiting to be cued for like half a 2nd before they like, before, you know, Jamie's standing at the top of a set of stairs and then has to suddenly urgently start moving down the stairs.

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It's like it just is sloppy in comparison.

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I mean, it could be something to do.

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Less time in the BBC bar.

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Yeah, I think that could well be.

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Could well be have something to do.

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But I mean, these are things that can just go well or go badly on a particular day and you have a bit less control.

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Absolutely.

201
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But I, it surely.

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It's not, you know, that that shot I mentioned of Jamie.

203
00:16:29.820 --> 00:16:31.860
It's not the only incident in the crater.

204
00:16:31.919 --> 00:16:36.419
Yes, and it's no coincidence that Douglas Canfield and Michael Ferguson always have good days.

205
00:16:36.419 --> 00:16:39.179
Yeah. usually has a bad day.

206
00:16:39.299 --> 00:16:40.320
That's not a coincidence.

207
00:16:40.379 --> 00:16:45.659
It's not just because, you know, there was a virus going around or something, you know?

208
00:16:45.720 --> 00:16:49.200
It's something about the director being in control of the production and orchestrating it.

209
00:16:49.259 --> 00:16:52.679
Well, Simon, you talked about all of the performances being on the same page.

210
00:16:52.740 --> 00:16:55.200
That's the director doing that in rehearsals.

211
00:16:55.259 --> 00:16:57.240
But it's also that everything...

212
00:16:57.299 --> 00:16:58.320
And in their casting choices, probably.

213
00:16:58.379 --> 00:16:58.980
Absolutely.

214
00:16:59.039 --> 00:17:03.659
It's also the director being responsible for all elements of the production.

215
00:17:03.720 --> 00:17:11.940
So the ice warrior guns, the sound effects work, the vision works, the cutting works, and it's all just a small part of the episode.

216
00:17:12.000 --> 00:17:13.319
It's not a feature piece of the episode.

217
00:17:13.380 --> 00:17:20.940
It's just there for a moment, and then you're moving on to something else, but it's pulled off tightly, and that's the director being in control of what he's doing.

218
00:17:21.000 --> 00:17:35.880
He's not in control in the sequence, and I think it's part 2 where there's a shot in the control room, and someone's obviously dropped something on the set, and there's a great big clang, and one of the experts in the background looks across, and it looks like what they're doing.

219
00:17:35.940 --> 00:17:37.019
It really happened.

220
00:17:37.079 --> 00:17:39.720
Just someone elsewhere in the control room dropping.

221
00:17:39.779 --> 00:17:40.559
But that actually works.

222
00:17:40.619 --> 00:17:42.599
So then actually someone's reacted to something.

223
00:17:42.660 --> 00:17:44.940
And we talked earlier about the visual storytelling.

224
00:17:45.000 --> 00:17:55.259
So it's no surprise that this episode starts with the shot of the sun, then moving behind the moon and seeing the earth, and every time in that initial episode that you're changing location.

225
00:17:55.319 --> 00:17:57.960
He does an establishing shot to show you where you are.

226
00:17:58.019 --> 00:17:59.339
He's telling the story.

227
00:17:59.400 --> 00:17:59.579
Exactly.

228
00:17:59.579 --> 00:18:01.019
This control room is now on the moon.

229
00:18:01.079 --> 00:18:03.359
This is remarkably similar control, really.

230
00:18:04.140 --> 00:18:08.099
And the soundtrack, the soundtrack works in tandem.

231
00:18:08.220 --> 00:18:19.440
And that's the other thing that I think, which I responded to when I saw this back in the late 80s, having just seen cratons in mind rubber, was the fact that Dudley, much as I think he doesn't get it right in his very latest stuff.

232
00:18:19.500 --> 00:18:21.420
He is getting it right in this earlier stuff.

233
00:18:21.480 --> 00:18:22.559
Really good, isn't it?

234
00:18:23.279 --> 00:18:28.440
And of course, it's you feel like it's like, you know, it may be 1969, but we've already arrived in the 70s.

235
00:18:28.559 --> 00:18:29.819
Yeah, it's funny.

236
00:18:29.880 --> 00:18:37.799
Dudley kind of settles on, you know, just the a small suite of instruments that he uses all the time and a particular sound, but he hasn't done that yet.

237
00:18:37.859 --> 00:18:40.440
And there's a lot of really just sort of percussive stuff.

238
00:18:40.500 --> 00:18:41.819
You know, we talked.

239
00:18:41.880 --> 00:18:47.160
I talked positively about the weird music in Darlic Invasion of Earth a couple of weeks ago.

240
00:18:47.220 --> 00:18:51.000
But here, I think this is every bit as good as that.

241
00:18:51.059 --> 00:18:52.500
I think the music is really great.

242
00:18:52.559 --> 00:18:56.700
And I actually didn't notice that it was Dudley and I'm surprised to learn that.

243
00:18:56.759 --> 00:19:01.920
It's actually a very modern score, like next week's score for the Space Pirates and the war game.

244
00:19:01.980 --> 00:19:09.720
So there's been some kind of, um, some kind of sea change in the way, um, maybe it's something as simple as he could now score a screen.

245
00:19:09.779 --> 00:19:10.500
Who knows?

246
00:19:10.559 --> 00:19:12.180
It could be that.

247
00:19:12.240 --> 00:19:16.319
Are aren't, aren't they so like hugely behind at this point.

248
00:19:16.380 --> 00:19:24.240
Like, I wonder if he's scoring the screen because the, Aren't they just barely ahead of transmission date starting right now or something?

249
00:19:24.480 --> 00:19:27.480
I don't know, I can't remember. an hour a week ahead at this at this point.

250
00:19:27.539 --> 00:19:36.359
I mean, maybe it hasn't happened yet because this is still a sweet of music, which is sort of used interchangeably throughout the story, whereas it feels like to me, I may be wrong.

251
00:19:36.420 --> 00:19:42.839
I'm just postulating here that Spearhead from Space feels like the music is scored to the action.

252
00:19:42.900 --> 00:19:46.380
Well, it would be because it's a film. going forward.

253
00:19:46.380 --> 00:19:47.279
But they're going forward.

254
00:19:47.400 --> 00:19:51.900
But then they change, by the time you get to study urins and they're doing 2 episodes every fortnight rather than one episode a week, cafe.

255
00:19:52.019 --> 00:19:55.799
So that changes the nature of the program and they're not doing it as Jeremy, as you're saying, not doing it the week before.

256
00:19:55.859 --> 00:20:00.900
Because I know that a lot of music was fed in, like the sound effects was fed in live into the recording.

257
00:20:00.960 --> 00:20:04.680
I don't know whether that's still happening here, but it does feel like we've moved forward.

258
00:20:04.740 --> 00:20:07.259
Can I just go on about the sort of the moving forward thing?

259
00:20:07.319 --> 00:20:16.319
It struck me not just in visual style, but also in storytelling style, in so many ways, this is a pertly story.

260
00:20:16.380 --> 00:20:24.359
Now, I know people love to talk about web of fear and invasion being, you know, oh, they're prototype unit stories, and obviously they are because they've got the brigadier and soldiers and stuff in it.

261
00:20:24.420 --> 00:20:28.980
That's a kind of a fairly obvious take, which is not wrong.

262
00:20:29.039 --> 00:20:39.240
Whereas I think the invasion is far less similar to a lot of penalty stories in terms of the way the story is structured, and but the seat of debt is much more similar to a per story in the way the story is structured.

263
00:20:39.299 --> 00:20:44.519
You can imagine in an ambassador's their style, reminded evil style, story structure.

264
00:20:44.579 --> 00:20:50.220
Okay, maybe we're not 100 years in the future, and, you know, the purple year is supposed to be like 70 quote unquote, not too distant future.

265
00:20:50.279 --> 00:20:57.900
So rather than going to Mars in their ambassadors of death, maybe they've developed teleport technology in 1975 or whatever it is.

266
00:20:57.960 --> 00:21:02.519
It's a per- we scientific base rather than a trout and based under siege.

267
00:21:02.519 --> 00:21:06.119
You should probably imagine the 3rd doctrine, Liz Shaw, turning up at T-Mac control in Bessie.

268
00:21:06.180 --> 00:21:07.619
Absolutely, yeah.

269
00:21:07.680 --> 00:21:10.380
I mean, it even is just the question of going from place to place to play.

270
00:21:10.440 --> 00:21:19.920
So, yeah, you know, you've got the museum, you've got T-Mat base in London, you've got the moon base, and you've got the weather control centre.

271
00:21:19.980 --> 00:21:20.759
Anybody control setting?

272
00:21:20.819 --> 00:21:21.420
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

273
00:21:21.480 --> 00:21:24.900
And that's, I mean, that sort of very pertu-ish, not at all based on the beach.

274
00:21:24.960 --> 00:21:25.380
Exactly.

275
00:21:25.440 --> 00:21:34.140
And I think the other thing other than the direction that's being felt in the back half of this season and in particularly starting here is who's doing the writing.

276
00:21:34.200 --> 00:21:39.119
So it's credited at Brian Hales, but it's pretty much known that from episode 3 to 6.

277
00:21:39.180 --> 00:21:58.619
It's a page one rewrite by Terrence Dix, and Terrence Dix, being one of the great, you know, I mean, as we all know, remarkably consistent, can take bog standard formulaic plot stuff and he just knows how to put enough interesting details into it.

278
00:21:58.680 --> 00:22:08.940
And one of the things I noticed this time around is in episodes one and 2 where our characters that were introduced are fairly flat, little static.

279
00:22:09.000 --> 00:22:16.380
Commander Ratner feels very much like the commander of the moon base, whose name I can't even remember. but helps them.

280
00:22:16.440 --> 00:22:21.240
But starting in episode three, everybody starts to get more interesting.

281
00:22:21.299 --> 00:22:22.859
Kelly becomes more interesting.

282
00:22:22.920 --> 00:22:27.839
Fuchsium becomes way more interesting and becomes like a star character, this thing.

283
00:22:27.960 --> 00:22:32.579
Even Radner becomes a more compelling character.

284
00:22:32.640 --> 00:22:39.779
And it's just Terrence Sticks doing little tiny moments of unusual character stuff.

285
00:22:39.839 --> 00:22:41.759
I think it's a great companion story.

286
00:22:41.819 --> 00:22:45.359
At Terrence Dix knows how to make Zoe work, which is really weird.

287
00:22:45.420 --> 00:22:47.099
He really knows how to use her.

288
00:22:47.160 --> 00:22:48.420
She's great in the story.

289
00:22:48.480 --> 00:22:49.259
Jamie's great.

290
00:22:49.319 --> 00:22:52.740
I mean, they're all, everybody's really much more likeable and engaging moving on.

291
00:22:52.799 --> 00:22:57.420
And I think that's just his desire to be consistent all throughout.

292
00:22:57.480 --> 00:23:16.259
I think some of that is there already, though, because I had the experience of watching the moon base immediately before this, and I said last week that there's only 2 people to guest characters on the moon base who have any personality and one personality is in transigent base commander, and the other one is French.

293
00:23:19.380 --> 00:23:30.180
Here, immediately you've got Miss Kelly, who is a magnificent character, and we have Harry Taub's character comes in and sort of banters.

294
00:23:30.240 --> 00:23:34.319
And even though she, he's only in that 1st episode. he's so three-dimensional.

295
00:23:34.380 --> 00:23:37.740
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

296
00:23:37.799 --> 00:23:48.900
There is no interaction between the characters or among the characters on the moon base to speak of that isn't to do with telling people to go into the graviton control room or whatever.

297
00:23:48.960 --> 00:23:50.880
Whereas these.

298
00:23:50.940 --> 00:23:52.740
Yeah, this has banter.

299
00:23:52.799 --> 00:23:57.240
It's really fun, you know, like, and was fun immediately from episode one, I think.

300
00:23:57.299 --> 00:24:06.839
But I think you're right, particularly where you have Jamie and Zoe as the only regulars involved in episode four, and you don't really miss the doctor that March.

301
00:24:06.900 --> 00:24:09.119
I think it's pretty good.

302
00:24:09.180 --> 00:24:20.339
And while it does have the stock trout and amazing female guest character for him to work with in the same vein as Astrid Ferrier or Anne Travers.

303
00:24:20.400 --> 00:24:22.380
Miss Garrett. absolutely.

304
00:24:22.440 --> 00:24:32.819
That's not at the expense of the companions because all through Web of Fear, Jamie and Victoria are completely sidelined while the doctor works with a much more interesting character in and Travis.

305
00:24:32.880 --> 00:24:35.400
Whereas here, they're not, as you said earlier.

306
00:24:35.400 --> 00:24:37.619
Phips as well becomes...

307
00:24:37.619 --> 00:24:38.579
Phips is really good, yeah.

308
00:24:38.700 --> 00:24:39.599
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

309
00:24:39.660 --> 00:24:40.140
Absolutely.

310
00:24:40.200 --> 00:24:46.319
Just sidebar on the doctor's absence from episode four. when I was just looking things up about the story.

311
00:24:46.380 --> 00:24:51.900
A bit of trivia is that that is the final time that a regular member of the cast is not in an episode.

312
00:24:51.960 --> 00:24:53.099
Oh wow, okay.

313
00:24:53.160 --> 00:24:55.440
How about episode 2 of Kinder?

314
00:24:55.980 --> 00:24:57.960
Okay, fair enough.

315
00:24:58.440 --> 00:25:00.960
Handbag.

316
00:25:00.960 --> 00:25:04.980
I blame the site I was reading.

317
00:25:05.279 --> 00:25:13.259
Yeah, I think Terrence Dix really does make a silk purse out of out of some some dodgy premises in this one.

318
00:25:13.319 --> 00:25:20.220
It kind of reminds you how amazing he could be at just at spinning plates, at really keeping them all moving.

319
00:25:20.279 --> 00:25:24.539
It's the fact that in that episode where Trouton's not there.

320
00:25:24.599 --> 00:25:28.380
There is a threat to the doctor's life that the others have to foil.

321
00:25:28.500 --> 00:25:30.839
It's not just we're not going to talk about him for 25 minutes.

322
00:25:30.900 --> 00:25:34.200
He is kind of the focus of that plot.

323
00:25:34.259 --> 00:25:40.140
You know, fusion's being asked to disintegrate him or send him, you know, teleport him into space and things.

324
00:25:40.200 --> 00:25:48.420
And there is that wonderful idea where they sort of tunnel in the back of the team that capsule, like, pull his body out.

325
00:25:48.420 --> 00:25:51.660
And Fusion assumes that he's actually killed.

326
00:25:51.720 --> 00:25:53.940
I mean, it's a bit it's a bit of a cheese.

327
00:25:54.240 --> 00:25:56.339
Have you met Dr.?

328
00:25:56.700 --> 00:26:08.759
No, no chief meaning in terms of that's probably where, you know, Michael Ferguson just can't coverage in a way in the studio, which is going to be convincing of them dragging the body of the doctor out while fusion's looking away, blah, blah, blah.

329
00:26:08.819 --> 00:26:10.019
So it happens off screen.

330
00:26:10.140 --> 00:26:11.700
Yeah, but it has to, like it kind of works.

331
00:26:11.700 --> 00:26:13.920
We know what they're trying to do.

332
00:26:13.980 --> 00:26:17.940
Yeah, Fuchsia looks at the thing and it's kind of like, oh, they succeeded.

333
00:26:18.000 --> 00:26:20.160
And that's really when we need to find that out.

334
00:26:20.220 --> 00:26:21.539
I'm having...

335
00:26:21.599 --> 00:26:22.500
Oh, yes, no.

336
00:26:22.799 --> 00:26:27.180
And as ever with Doctor Who, there is always a production reality behind it.

337
00:26:27.240 --> 00:26:35.519
So, yes, apparently Terrence thought that the last few episodes of Sea Death were low on incident, which, you know, we know Brian Haley's often low on incidents.

338
00:26:35.579 --> 00:26:38.039
But what Terry does is turning into a virtue.

339
00:26:38.099 --> 00:26:47.460
So apparently, Fraser Heinz contract was up halfway through the seeds of death and he was going to leave and be replaced by a new character called Nick.

340
00:26:47.519 --> 00:27:02.700
Now, when Troughton decided to hand in his notice and encouraged, um, Fraser Heinz to stay on until the end, there was a production reason that the back half of the story needed to be rewritten by the story editor. and so Terrence just stepped in and did it.

341
00:27:02.759 --> 00:27:09.180
So all of these things which work out well are often because there is a real life imperative behind them.

342
00:27:09.240 --> 00:27:16.799
That's one of the things that I always say that I love about television, you know, that it's not purely, um, television of this year.

343
00:27:16.859 --> 00:27:23.880
Well, television generally, the real world intervenes, contracts and actors and production things happen.

344
00:27:23.940 --> 00:27:27.839
And so you don't get to follow your five-year plan, exactly.

345
00:27:27.900 --> 00:27:30.359
Something happens that gets in the way of it.

346
00:27:30.420 --> 00:27:31.559
So it gets pregnant.

347
00:27:32.039 --> 00:27:34.259
Yeah, yeah, it's cancelled at the end of year four.

348
00:27:34.500 --> 00:27:46.799
For instance, someone may buy a very expensive foam machine and all of a sudden, we need to centre several episodes around having a very expensive foam machine, which is wonderful.

349
00:27:46.859 --> 00:27:49.559
But then it gets packed up in the cupboard you've never seen again.

350
00:27:49.619 --> 00:27:53.819
I think maybe it pumps a little bit of foam out of the brain in mind of evil and that's it.

351
00:27:54.059 --> 00:27:56.339
Maybe it doesn't look as good in colour.

352
00:27:56.400 --> 00:27:58.680
Oh, that could be nice with many.

353
00:27:59.339 --> 00:28:03.180
Yes, the colour of monsters is green, but one's in their story.

354
00:28:03.240 --> 00:28:04.079
Monochrome.

355
00:28:16.140 --> 00:28:18.420
Let's talk a little bit about the Ice Warriors.

356
00:28:18.480 --> 00:28:23.400
I think they are just lamentably terrible.

357
00:28:23.519 --> 00:28:25.380
Oh that's a bit cruel.

358
00:28:25.440 --> 00:28:27.119
No, I don't think it's cruel enough.

359
00:28:27.180 --> 00:28:30.000
So I think there's no premise here at all.

360
00:28:30.059 --> 00:28:32.700
This could have been the cybermen.

361
00:28:32.759 --> 00:28:34.740
It could equally have been the side men this week.

362
00:28:34.799 --> 00:28:36.000
Well, no.

363
00:28:36.000 --> 00:28:37.500
For the 3rd yeti story.

364
00:28:37.559 --> 00:28:42.420
I don't, I don't think the dynamic works with this, because assignment in the 60s aren't the sidement of the 80s.

365
00:28:42.480 --> 00:28:48.480
Okay, yes, it would work as an 80s cyberman story where you can imagine the ice lord as David Bangs, but don't think it works.

366
00:28:48.539 --> 00:28:52.980
I don't think it works with 60 Cyberman who would basically mute most of the time.

367
00:28:53.039 --> 00:28:53.940
That's true.

368
00:28:54.000 --> 00:28:58.140
But, but, I mean, you know, it's basically lizard men from Mars.

369
00:28:58.140 --> 00:29:00.299
Yeah, it could be nothing.

370
00:29:00.359 --> 00:29:02.880
And they look dreadful.

371
00:29:03.000 --> 00:29:04.980
Oh my god, they look awful.

372
00:29:05.039 --> 00:29:15.000
I do think that the ice Lord, when you see those close-ups that Jeremy mentioned of, you know, his chin, his and his teeth, that he looks great.

373
00:29:15.059 --> 00:29:17.339
His cost is ridiculous.

374
00:29:17.400 --> 00:29:22.680
He's got the floppy hat that goes all halfway down his back.

375
00:29:22.740 --> 00:29:23.279
It's really bad.

376
00:29:23.339 --> 00:29:32.460
Like, like, there's that thing where, like, it's just this big fibreglass thing with all this sort of pubic hair, fringing it.

377
00:29:32.579 --> 00:29:35.220
Like it's, and one of them is Todd's pumpkin head.

378
00:29:35.279 --> 00:29:37.200
So yeah, yeah, yeah.

379
00:29:37.259 --> 00:29:39.599
We did get rid of the pumpkin head ones, didn't we?

380
00:29:39.660 --> 00:29:41.819
Yeah, from the ice Warriors.

381
00:29:41.940 --> 00:29:43.500
But then they come back in the monster...

382
00:29:43.799 --> 00:29:46.079
Absolutely, they do.

383
00:29:46.140 --> 00:29:49.019
So clearly they found it in a cupboard.

384
00:29:49.079 --> 00:29:57.480
I mean, the main reason that we have Ice Warriors in this is that those big fibreglass things were expensive to store.

385
00:29:58.319 --> 00:30:01.140
We'd better use them again.

386
00:30:01.200 --> 00:30:02.519
Do we know the same costumes?

387
00:30:02.940 --> 00:30:14.279
Look, I think that they suffer in the same way that some other monster costumes and things suffer the 2nd time round because they have been shoved in a cupboard and they never come out looking the same as they went.

388
00:30:14.339 --> 00:30:16.920
They looked terrible in the ice warriors.

389
00:30:16.980 --> 00:30:19.319
I think they are, from the point of view of the thing.

390
00:30:19.380 --> 00:30:20.700
Maybe it's the lighting.

391
00:30:20.759 --> 00:30:23.880
There's a lot of that ice stuff in the ice Warriors that's, is that on film?

392
00:30:23.940 --> 00:30:25.619
There is a lot of that ice stuff in the ice.

393
00:30:25.680 --> 00:30:28.079
No, a lot of those eye sequences in the Ice Warriors.

394
00:30:28.140 --> 00:30:29.880
Is it on film or is it on studio?

395
00:30:29.940 --> 00:30:31.319
I think that helps it.

396
00:30:31.380 --> 00:30:37.019
I think also maybe the fact that the ice Warriors there are on that icy background for a lot of a tediously lot of the time.

397
00:30:37.319 --> 00:30:42.000
And here they're in kind of a dark control room, so they're sort of out of thing.

398
00:30:42.059 --> 00:30:44.400
I mean, they are the typical lumbering Doctor Who monster.

399
00:30:44.460 --> 00:30:45.059
Yeah.

400
00:30:45.059 --> 00:30:45.720
You're right.

401
00:30:45.779 --> 00:30:46.619
They completely interchangeable.

402
00:30:46.680 --> 00:30:48.779
And they've got like these massive arms.

403
00:30:48.779 --> 00:30:53.700
And like when the ice warrior talks, not sla, but when the other ones talk.

404
00:30:54.599 --> 00:30:59.039
Like they're kind of talking through this rubber thing that moves weirdly.

405
00:31:00.599 --> 00:31:05.039
They look so amateurish. like they really are quite dreadful.

406
00:31:05.099 --> 00:31:08.460
I think they look great until they...

407
00:31:08.460 --> 00:31:08.940
You see them.

408
00:31:08.940 --> 00:31:10.019
Until they turn up.

409
00:31:10.319 --> 00:31:10.920
No, till they move.

410
00:31:10.980 --> 00:31:11.339
No.

411
00:31:11.339 --> 00:31:14.519
They look great in the Doctor Who technical matter.

412
00:31:14.579 --> 00:31:17.940
He's the Doctor Who technical manual as well, you know.

413
00:31:18.000 --> 00:31:19.319
Sorry, here's my fan card.

414
00:31:19.799 --> 00:31:22.079
That's three, two.

415
00:31:23.579 --> 00:31:32.759
Look, I agree with you, but at the same time, I think for a 1968 slash 9 audience, I think they do look many times better than the crotons.

416
00:31:32.880 --> 00:31:36.599
They look a little bit better than roses.

417
00:31:36.660 --> 00:31:37.200
Sorry?

418
00:31:37.259 --> 00:31:38.039
They don't have skirts.

419
00:31:38.099 --> 00:31:38.460
No.

420
00:31:38.579 --> 00:31:47.940
And their heads don't right take, but no, they are, as the fibreglass chest thing, I think they look much, much better, the hair coming out of orifices and things.

421
00:31:48.000 --> 00:31:52.859
I think that they look much better than the quarks, the crotons.

422
00:31:52.920 --> 00:32:00.839
Yeah, no, generally Doctor Who monsters look bad in this era, but the cybermen last week in the moon base. pretty great.

423
00:32:00.900 --> 00:32:04.019
And in the invasion, the Daleks have always looked really good.

424
00:32:04.079 --> 00:32:08.220
There was the slither, obviously, who we were all very impressed by.

425
00:32:08.279 --> 00:32:11.819
In 12 months' time. going to have the autons, which look incredible.

426
00:32:11.880 --> 00:32:12.900
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

427
00:32:13.440 --> 00:32:20.400
Look, I think the key takeaway from this is it's the Davros factor, the Daleks are difficult to shoot.

428
00:32:20.460 --> 00:32:22.500
They're, you know, they're sort of clumsy props and that.

429
00:32:22.559 --> 00:32:31.619
You introduced Davros to give the doctor, yeah, someone to talk to a character who can articulate what the monster wants to do.

430
00:32:31.680 --> 00:32:35.880
So here is Alan Banyan in his 1st of 3 appearances as the Ice Lord.

431
00:32:35.940 --> 00:32:37.019
He's always the ice Lord.

432
00:32:37.079 --> 00:32:39.119
Whenever there's an ice Lord, it's Alan Benyon.

433
00:32:39.180 --> 00:32:45.000
And he moves elegantly and he's able to converse with the doctor.

434
00:32:45.059 --> 00:32:48.720
He's menacing in the way that ice warriors aren't generally.

435
00:32:48.779 --> 00:32:52.079
And I think he takes them away from being those lumbering monsters.

436
00:32:52.140 --> 00:32:58.859
It turns into that Doctor Who thing of being the leader who is the villain and then his henchman, which I'm fine with.

437
00:32:59.039 --> 00:33:00.420
Exactly.

438
00:33:00.480 --> 00:33:03.660
Okay, I'm going to say something that may be controversial.

439
00:33:03.720 --> 00:33:05.039
When I look at the cyberman.

440
00:33:05.099 --> 00:33:13.920
I think the cybermen are an incredible central concept and premise that falls short every time after its 1st appearance.

441
00:33:13.980 --> 00:33:18.839
So they're never to me is effective and they never quite reach their potential.

442
00:33:18.900 --> 00:33:30.539
And I think the ice warriors are a bog standard premise that occasionally surpasses its limitations.

443
00:33:30.599 --> 00:33:34.440
And I think it does so in the next 2 stories much better.

444
00:33:34.500 --> 00:33:37.859
I think there's, and I think also in the modern era much better.

445
00:33:37.920 --> 00:33:51.420
I think there's an argument to be made that it's not executed well, but they're tried to make this into like the Klingons of Doctor Who, a race with a culture in some frame of honour that was villains and can be friends.

446
00:33:51.480 --> 00:34:10.860
And so that's interesting to me in a way that like the cybermen become, to me by the 80s, just they, even by the rules of their own premise, they're like smug and emotional, and they don't seem to really care about adapting people or, you know, any of that stuff anymore, and they've sort of lost everything that's freaky.

447
00:34:10.920 --> 00:34:15.300
So I do have a soft spot in my heart for the ice Warriors.

448
00:34:15.360 --> 00:34:27.119
And when they when they came back in the new series, I was genuinely thrilled because I'm like, yes, it's a 1950s bog standard monster, but let's see what they do and and there's things about I like.

449
00:34:27.179 --> 00:34:28.260
I don't know why they're lizards.

450
00:34:28.320 --> 00:34:30.539
I don't know why they're like the cold so much.

451
00:34:30.599 --> 00:34:32.639
None of that sense, but I still love them.

452
00:34:32.699 --> 00:34:35.039
Well, Maz is colder than this, so that happens.

453
00:34:35.039 --> 00:34:35.940
Yes, that's fun.

454
00:34:35.940 --> 00:34:36.900
But like, I guess.

455
00:34:36.960 --> 00:34:39.300
But their ice warriors, not because they come from Mars.

456
00:34:39.360 --> 00:34:44.400
Ice Warriors because they were dug out of a block of ice in the previous year. by somebody as an ice warrior.

457
00:34:44.460 --> 00:34:44.820
Yeah.

458
00:34:44.820 --> 00:34:46.380
A classic Doctor Who thing.

459
00:34:46.440 --> 00:34:51.119
It's like they're called the sea devils in the Silurians, because that's what we called them one time, you know?

460
00:34:51.119 --> 00:34:54.719
Yeah, loving Warriors of the Deep, says you're sea devil Warriors.

461
00:34:54.780 --> 00:34:55.679
I do call them that.

462
00:34:55.739 --> 00:34:56.400
You're one of them.

463
00:34:56.460 --> 00:34:57.360
Yes, it's a slur.

464
00:34:57.420 --> 00:35:00.059
Yeah, exactly.

465
00:35:00.900 --> 00:35:07.920
It does make me wonder why it takes until the Curse of Paladon to make the Ice Warriors interesting characters.

466
00:35:07.980 --> 00:35:10.920
And I know that because... in the middle.

467
00:35:10.980 --> 00:35:16.920
I mean, that's true, but the Ice Warriors are given very little background and very little to make them distinctive.

468
00:35:16.980 --> 00:35:21.599
I think it's why Nathan says they're interchangeable with the yeti and the sidemen of this era.

469
00:35:21.659 --> 00:35:30.059
They are just lizard forms of that, that we don't actually go into their culture and their hierarchy and what makes them interesting until the curse of peladon.

470
00:35:30.119 --> 00:35:30.420
Yes.

471
00:35:30.420 --> 00:35:38.159
And because the Trouton era is doing a series of bases under siege where the villains are just interchangeable bad guys.

472
00:35:38.159 --> 00:35:40.739
And here, I think...

473
00:35:40.739 --> 00:35:41.460
Well, it is.

474
00:35:41.460 --> 00:35:42.960
And this is breaking out of that.

475
00:35:43.019 --> 00:35:50.820
There's sort of elements of a base under siege because part of the story involves a base under siege, but it's not quite the base of the siege that no.

476
00:35:50.880 --> 00:35:51.719
And it's better.

477
00:35:51.780 --> 00:35:53.159
I think it is better for that reason.

478
00:35:53.280 --> 00:35:59.639
But it's not doing anything subtle or interesting with the monsters and the monsters that are, no.

479
00:35:59.699 --> 00:36:11.219
And the cybermen and the Daleks are both introduced in a way that is more interesting than what we eventually land on, or at least as far as, you know, their 2nd appearance is concerned.

480
00:36:11.340 --> 00:36:38.280
Here, you know, like I just think that the ice warriors, land boringly, and are kind of boring here, and it's the 70s, you know, just giving them the brilliant idea of them not being the villains, you know, that they're aliens, but they're not the villains, and that that blindsides the doctor, is that's a stroke of genius, I think, in Cursive Paladon, which they quickly reverse in the sequel.

481
00:36:38.340 --> 00:36:40.679
Well, and then...

482
00:36:40.679 --> 00:36:42.000
They're also good in monster appellant.

483
00:36:42.059 --> 00:36:52.980
Yeah, but I also think too that there's all of that sort of spinoff staff and Gary's novels and all of that sort of thing that does turn them into the Klingons, that's when they get turned into that.

484
00:36:53.039 --> 00:36:55.260
I do think the form is interesting.

485
00:36:55.320 --> 00:37:08.579
Like one of the things I respect about Peladon so much is that rather than doing what we, Doctor Who always does, which is we have this story going on with this theme, and we're going to chuck monsters in, and if they work with the theme, great, if they don't, they're still the monsters.

486
00:37:08.639 --> 00:37:20.159
But writing that, Terrence, and I have to assume this is Terrence Sticks, is smart enough to know, no, we're doing a thing about about a geopolitical question about entering the common market and that's our theme.

487
00:37:20.219 --> 00:37:24.300
So the ice warriors have to change to fit into this story.

488
00:37:24.360 --> 00:37:29.460
They have to become more complicated in order to be part of the narrative we're building.

489
00:37:29.519 --> 00:37:37.739
And that's how you organically refresh something as opposed to, I don't think they were setting out to make, like, think they were doing some big new revision of the ice warriors.

490
00:37:37.800 --> 00:37:41.039
I think they were like, well, this will be interesting and it fits into this idea.

491
00:37:41.099 --> 00:37:43.320
And that's why it works.

492
00:37:43.380 --> 00:37:45.239
Yeah, and the costumes in recovery.

493
00:37:45.300 --> 00:37:59.699
Yeah, I think the costumes are in the cupboard. yeah Can I make the observation that we're almost coming to the conclusion that the use of monsters on the 2nd go round, turned them quite a bit into a just a generic thing.

494
00:37:59.760 --> 00:38:04.320
I'd almost posit, although the chase is, the exception proves the rule.

495
00:38:04.380 --> 00:38:12.659
Yeah, we might pretend that it's the 4th one, in that case, because of the rapid fire nature that the chase is so soon after Dalek Bay.

496
00:38:12.719 --> 00:38:14.820
It's the 3rd time that they actually do something interesting with them.

497
00:38:14.880 --> 00:38:18.480
Third time on Paladon, where the ice warriors have got like a bit of a culture.

498
00:38:18.539 --> 00:38:23.519
The 3rd time with a sideman, we go to the tomb of the sideman, which is a different thing because the moon base is just basically a rerun of the 10th planet.

499
00:38:23.579 --> 00:38:26.219
Yeah, I see your shum of the side, man, and race you in invasion of time.

500
00:38:26.760 --> 00:38:34.199
As I said, maybe maybe it's not always the 3rd because I would suggest that the 2 doctors are actually much better.

501
00:38:34.260 --> 00:38:41.159
And it's kind of like, it's that kind of thing where I don't know whether this is the way it went with 2 doctors, but it's that kind of thing where maybe aliens were written.

502
00:38:41.159 --> 00:38:44.880
And then James, he's going, oh, we could swap those out and make them Santarans.

503
00:38:44.940 --> 00:39:01.139
And like what you're saying with the ice Warriors in, because Paladon, Jeremy, It's like the suddenly an old monster is reintroduced but modified and made more interesting to suit the new story that's being told rather than, oh, let's do another story with the ice water, which is basically kind of what this is.

504
00:39:01.139 --> 00:39:03.119
Or maybe this is just the monster of the week.

505
00:39:03.179 --> 00:39:04.139
Exactly.

506
00:39:04.199 --> 00:39:06.360
It's not, let's just do another story with the eyesores.

507
00:39:06.420 --> 00:39:10.380
It like, let's do another story with a race of monsters, and this week we'll make it the ice Warriors.

508
00:39:10.440 --> 00:39:11.159
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

509
00:39:11.219 --> 00:39:18.960
And actually, I think one of the reasons why I find this story so entertaining, apart from all the many reasons we've already stayed, is because the ice warriors could be anything.

510
00:39:19.019 --> 00:39:23.159
It's not about the ice Warriors, for me, it's basically about everything else that's going on.

511
00:39:23.219 --> 00:39:29.159
It's all of the humans interacting and the guest cast, which makes it so brilliant.

512
00:39:29.219 --> 00:39:34.739
You know, the fact that they come from Mars is the reason that they're here.

513
00:39:35.039 --> 00:39:41.099
Because they're trying to terraform the earth in the ice warriors and then they're trying to do it again here.

514
00:39:41.159 --> 00:39:47.519
So they're trying to reduce the amount of oxygen in the atmosphere so that they can breathe it so that it's more aligned with a Martian atmosphere.

515
00:39:47.579 --> 00:39:53.099
And of course, there's the red weed, isn't there, in the... that wholesale, yeah.

516
00:39:53.159 --> 00:39:55.500
Yeah, and so they've just taken that as well.

517
00:39:55.559 --> 00:39:57.179
And, you know, that's fine.

518
00:39:57.239 --> 00:39:59.159
I'm not criticising that.

519
00:39:59.219 --> 00:40:05.940
But I think that that's probably why they're chosen to fit in with this story, given that there's not a lot of ice around.

520
00:40:07.199 --> 00:40:11.039
They work as Martians rather than ice.

521
00:40:11.099 --> 00:40:18.599
But there is that one aspect of the story where the ice thing or the cold thing becomes relevant and that's turning the heating up.

522
00:40:18.659 --> 00:40:20.400
The giant ship's wheel on the front.

523
00:40:20.460 --> 00:40:21.420
Really terrible.

524
00:40:21.420 --> 00:40:23.519
Wow, that's the worst.

525
00:40:23.579 --> 00:40:25.679
The 2 settings are cold.

526
00:40:25.679 --> 00:40:31.199
I just say, it's just a demonstration that people in Britain in the 60s didn't actually know what centigrade was.

527
00:40:31.260 --> 00:40:33.960
No, okay, well, because at one point.

528
00:40:34.019 --> 00:40:40.260
So we watched the temperature go up, but I think at the highest point, it's over 60 degrees centigrade.

529
00:40:40.260 --> 00:40:43.260
Everyone would be dead.

530
00:40:43.320 --> 00:40:44.280
It is that thing.

531
00:40:44.280 --> 00:40:54.599
We said last week, you know, how somehow the cybermen are uniquely, unlike literally every physical object of any kind, vulnerable to gravity.

532
00:40:56.639 --> 00:41:08.340
Here, turning up, turning up the temperature to 60 degrees centigrade, which would kill everyone on the base. seems to affect seems to affect the ice warriors much worse.

533
00:41:08.460 --> 00:41:14.579
I always think about that scene in Thunderball, where they lock James Bond into that rowing machine and crank it up.

534
00:41:14.639 --> 00:41:16.440
And I'm like, why would this go this fast?

535
00:41:16.500 --> 00:41:17.340
Like, why would it?

536
00:41:17.519 --> 00:41:18.539
tear him apart.

537
00:41:18.599 --> 00:41:19.559
Why would this fuck?

538
00:41:19.619 --> 00:41:20.760
Why would this have this function?

539
00:41:20.820 --> 00:41:21.300
You know?

540
00:41:21.360 --> 00:41:27.420
Well, that's it's not just that, but in fact, the thermometer on the wall goes up to a 100.

541
00:41:27.659 --> 00:41:29.280
Oh, what's the temperature?

542
00:41:29.280 --> 00:41:29.940
I was 92.

543
00:41:31.139 --> 00:41:37.440
I mean, although, you know, my Audi says it, you know, might, yeah, speedometer on my Audi goes up to like 280 now.

544
00:41:37.500 --> 00:41:40.440
I don't think the car is going to go. to impress you.

545
00:41:40.500 --> 00:41:42.840
It's also, it's that...

546
00:41:42.840 --> 00:41:47.699
Just in case, just in case Fuchsian wants to cook a turkey in the...

547
00:41:47.760 --> 00:41:49.800
I think you'll find fuchsium is the term.

548
00:41:49.860 --> 00:41:51.119
He is the turkey.

549
00:41:51.179 --> 00:41:52.260
Oh, I love fusion.

550
00:41:52.320 --> 00:41:59.880
It's also that Doctor Who thing of, you know, whenever you have a countdown and you cut away, the bleeps or the counting these never go to match actual seconds.

551
00:41:59.940 --> 00:42:02.699
Yeah, the thermometer does go back.

552
00:42:02.760 --> 00:42:05.400
It goes up to 60, then it drops going to come back.

553
00:42:05.400 --> 00:42:06.239
Yeah.

554
00:42:06.300 --> 00:42:09.300
People are looking at dials and saying, it's going up.

555
00:42:09.360 --> 00:42:11.280
You cut to the dial, which then starts to go up.

556
00:42:11.340 --> 00:42:15.119
Yeah, that's the thing that Janet Fielding always says in the behind the sofa.

557
00:42:15.179 --> 00:42:16.920
She always hates, but she goes, look.

558
00:42:16.980 --> 00:42:19.019
And then the thing happens.

559
00:42:28.800 --> 00:42:33.420
Can we talk a little bit about Brian Hales and the fact that he's just not very good?

560
00:42:33.719 --> 00:42:36.420
Oh yeah, let's do that. think that's a little unfair.

561
00:42:36.480 --> 00:42:37.019
Okay.

562
00:42:37.079 --> 00:42:39.000
Well, I take your uncle...

563
00:42:39.059 --> 00:42:43.440
I take your unfair and I raise you a celestial toy maker.

564
00:42:43.500 --> 00:42:44.940
Oh, God, I forgot about that one.

565
00:42:45.000 --> 00:42:45.900
Okay, yes, you're completely right.

566
00:42:46.320 --> 00:42:50.820
I also put more steaks on the monster of Paladon, even though I kind of...

567
00:42:50.820 --> 00:42:55.320
No, I think Monster Paladon has the advantage of being scripted by Terrence Dix like this.

568
00:42:55.380 --> 00:42:57.599
And also, I'm in the ice war is not very good.

569
00:42:57.659 --> 00:42:59.159
Not a very good script at all.

570
00:42:59.219 --> 00:43:13.079
I think we're the Ice Warriors doesn't have, apart from that, that nothing actually really happens, is, and I think this is probably mirroring your criticism of the moon base as well, Nathan, is that the fundamental thing that they both have in common is that they're very dry.

571
00:43:13.139 --> 00:43:26.099
I think that we said last week that the great thing about the Ice Warriors is that little polycule of store and Clint and, um, Penley and...

572
00:43:26.219 --> 00:43:35.579
The computer, Miss Garrett, you know, like the, like the thing, the interactions between all of those characters is actually quite interesting, but the story itself is super boring.

573
00:43:35.699 --> 00:43:41.519
Yeah, I mean, the Ice Warriors and Monster of Peloton actually, which I know we all have a soft spot full.

574
00:43:41.579 --> 00:43:42.480
Except me.

575
00:43:42.599 --> 00:43:51.960
It's really boring But it's the, well, I'm going to sort of agree with you. in that with both of them.

576
00:43:52.019 --> 00:44:02.280
I confess I've watched neither of them that many times, but I can have just finished watching the Ice Warriors or Monster of Peloton, and I can't really tell you what's happened.

577
00:44:02.340 --> 00:44:03.659
I can't, I just forget.

578
00:44:03.719 --> 00:44:05.760
There's never enough story development.

579
00:44:05.820 --> 00:44:09.119
There's not enough story development, and they could be so much more, especially in Monster Pelleton.

580
00:44:09.179 --> 00:44:14.460
But look, the ice war is it's got the high concept and then, yeah, he doesn't kind of then push it anywhere.

581
00:44:14.519 --> 00:44:17.940
Like, it's not helped by the fact that the extant episodes are one, four, 5, and six.

582
00:44:18.000 --> 00:44:21.179
I think if it was one, two, three, six, we'd have a better view of it.

583
00:44:21.239 --> 00:44:24.179
And in many ways, he's covered by the fact that on his 2 Charlton stories.

584
00:44:24.300 --> 00:44:26.940
He's got really good directors working from it.

585
00:44:27.000 --> 00:44:29.579
So it covers the fact that these are really boring, okay?

586
00:44:29.639 --> 00:44:31.380
And it looks, I swear it looks like it's got some money.

587
00:44:31.440 --> 00:44:38.579
I just think that Ice Warriors is very weird in that there's a ton of premises in there that he doesn't run with that nobody runs with at all.

588
00:44:38.639 --> 00:44:40.980
So, and there's some stuff that's really weird.

589
00:44:41.039 --> 00:44:48.119
I love the weird mansion in the middle of the snowstorm. which is a nice image, but they don't really, doesn't really do anything with that.

590
00:44:48.179 --> 00:44:52.260
Same with the Luddite, like the anti-technology, technology, things.

591
00:44:52.320 --> 00:44:58.440
It's a little bit explored, but like there's a bunch of stuff that is just kind of vomited out there and it doesn't really go anywhere.

592
00:44:58.500 --> 00:45:00.239
And I think that's what leads it to be dry.

593
00:45:00.300 --> 00:45:12.659
And I'm not surprised that once he gets a really solid script editor who really like knows how to take an idea and push it, um, that the scripts feel much more robust.

594
00:45:12.659 --> 00:45:20.400
Because I think he's got good concepts, but I don't know that he knows how to make it work throughout the entire length of a 4 or 6 part story.

595
00:45:20.460 --> 00:45:22.500
That's what it feels like to me.

596
00:45:22.559 --> 00:45:25.440
I think that's definitely true of the, isn't it?

597
00:45:25.500 --> 00:45:27.659
Because I think the tame ad is a really strong concept.

598
00:45:27.780 --> 00:45:31.619
And that opening scene with all that activity and stuff.

599
00:45:31.739 --> 00:45:40.800
And it's sort of unusual for Doctor Who, where we sort of create a future where this very odd technological thing has happened and kind of defines the way the world works.

600
00:45:40.920 --> 00:45:41.940
Yeah.

601
00:45:41.940 --> 00:45:47.219
And that's really great, but it doesn't actually end up being super important.

602
00:45:47.280 --> 00:45:53.880
I mean, it's what enables the seeds to come to earth, but we basically stop using it at some point in the story.

603
00:45:53.940 --> 00:45:54.900
But it's interesting.

604
00:45:54.960 --> 00:45:59.219
I mean, the idea of a teleport has already been I mean, we haven't actually had it in Doctor Who yet, have we?

605
00:45:59.280 --> 00:46:00.000
A teleporter?

606
00:46:00.059 --> 00:46:01.199
I don't think we have.

607
00:46:01.260 --> 00:46:02.280
Correct me.

608
00:46:02.340 --> 00:46:03.119
I don't think so.

609
00:46:03.119 --> 00:46:04.019
Scarlic master plan.

610
00:46:04.139 --> 00:46:05.340
Oh, done, it must have been.

611
00:46:05.940 --> 00:46:07.139
Handed your fan, huh?

612
00:46:07.199 --> 00:46:07.679
Oh, shush.

613
00:46:07.860 --> 00:46:09.659
It's a big deal.

614
00:46:09.719 --> 00:46:13.139
Like they have to invent this massive machine for it. not just like a phone cabinet.

615
00:46:13.199 --> 00:46:16.199
But nevertheless, it's not that imaginative an idea.

616
00:46:16.260 --> 00:46:18.780
Like teleport, yeah, it's just something that is a sort of a science fiction thing.

617
00:46:18.840 --> 00:46:32.760
But what I find interesting about it is that rather than just say, oh, we live in the future and we've got these teleportation devices, they've actually tried to think of, well, how might that actually change the way we live, how will it change the world?

618
00:46:32.820 --> 00:46:34.079
And I think that's interesting.

619
00:46:34.199 --> 00:46:36.659
Because so infrequently, you get that.

620
00:46:36.719 --> 00:46:42.119
It might be a rip off of Star Trek, I don't know how influential Star Trek is at this point.

621
00:46:42.179 --> 00:46:45.300
It wasn't Ireland in the UK until after the war games ended.

622
00:46:45.360 --> 00:46:45.840
Yeah, okay.

623
00:46:45.900 --> 00:46:46.199
Yeah.

624
00:46:46.260 --> 00:46:48.000
But they knew about it.

625
00:46:48.119 --> 00:46:54.780
Because, I mean, the teleport there, the transporter in Star Trek is merely there so that we don't have to land the ship.

626
00:46:54.840 --> 00:46:56.519
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

627
00:46:56.579 --> 00:46:59.159
It's the TARDIS and Doctor Who just appears out of nowhere.

628
00:46:59.219 --> 00:47:04.619
And they never really take it very far until, you know, later on in Star Trek's run.

629
00:47:04.739 --> 00:47:07.920
Like, it's never the focus of an episode in original.

630
00:47:07.980 --> 00:47:12.480
There are no transport or accidents, which can buy 2 characters and buffers and things in.

631
00:47:12.539 --> 00:47:14.400
That all comes.

632
00:47:14.460 --> 00:47:26.340
I will say this, not to get too far off track, but James Blish, who wrote the novelisations of all the Star Trek episodes, his 1st or 2nd Star Trek novel right around the time the series was going on was called Spock Must Die.

633
00:47:26.400 --> 00:47:35.880
And it's a really great book where Spock gets duplicated in a transporter accident and they have to decide which one to get rid of because there can't be 2 Spocks running around.

634
00:47:35.940 --> 00:47:40.679
You know, one of them's got to be legitimate and one must not. 2nd chances on TNC.

635
00:47:40.739 --> 00:47:41.639
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

636
00:47:41.699 --> 00:47:45.239
So it is that idea where it's like a Black Mirror episode or something.

637
00:47:45.300 --> 00:47:47.280
It's like we've got this technological thing.

638
00:47:47.340 --> 00:47:48.599
How does it change the world?

639
00:47:48.659 --> 00:47:58.139
And I think all of that's super interesting and having Eldred as a character who's who pines for a time when there was a, you know, like a space program and stuff.

640
00:47:58.199 --> 00:48:00.119
Which is what's going on as this is going on?

641
00:48:00.179 --> 00:48:09.900
Yeah, well, in fact, that's one of the things that Sandifer mentions is how kind of thrilling it is that Doctor Who produces a story where we're all sick of the space program.

642
00:48:09.960 --> 00:48:13.320
Yeah, we'll follow the space program even really gets going.

643
00:48:13.380 --> 00:48:14.039
Yeah.

644
00:48:14.099 --> 00:48:19.260
And I'd love to, like, to take that idea and be like, well, it's very prophetic.

645
00:48:19.320 --> 00:48:24.059
If we have convenience, then we lose a spirit of adventure, right?

646
00:48:24.119 --> 00:48:26.639
And the idea that it's because everything becomes easier.

647
00:48:26.639 --> 00:48:33.179
And that's sort of what Eldrin is bemoaning, not just that they don't go in space, but just like we used to do things.

648
00:48:33.239 --> 00:48:42.480
And you look around the world today and it's like, oh, yeah, I kind of see how convenience can really sap us of that industriousness and that ingenuity.

649
00:48:42.539 --> 00:48:51.780
And the point I ordered to make too, was that I listened, went back and listened to the FTE when you were talking about seat of death and this is 2014, right?

650
00:48:51.840 --> 00:48:57.780
You all kind of think how silly it is that T-Mats out of action for a couple of days.

651
00:48:58.739 --> 00:49:02.519
Everything goes to hell and everyone's starving and it's like how ridiculous.

652
00:49:02.579 --> 00:49:04.440
Remember COVID.

653
00:49:04.559 --> 00:49:08.820
Remember how supermarkets shelves are cleared when there's no deliveries?

654
00:49:08.820 --> 00:49:09.960
Suddenly they're empty.

655
00:49:10.019 --> 00:49:11.820
We live just in time.

656
00:49:11.940 --> 00:49:13.500
It's the just in time, isn't it?

657
00:49:13.559 --> 00:49:20.039
freighter being stuck in the Suez Canal and how that had knock on effects for years after.

658
00:49:20.099 --> 00:49:21.000
It's amazing.

659
00:49:21.059 --> 00:49:24.539
So imagine how much worse that would be when you can just teleport everything everywhere.

660
00:49:24.599 --> 00:49:25.260
Yeah.

661
00:49:25.320 --> 00:49:27.119
I was actually thinking that this time.

662
00:49:27.179 --> 00:49:31.500
I was thinking why is everyone starving within sort of 24 hours and stuff?

663
00:49:31.559 --> 00:49:39.360
And it is absolutely the fact that having stock in a warehouse is a liability.

664
00:49:39.360 --> 00:49:47.159
And so we don't do it anymore and you absolutely wouldn't do it. if you were just able to transport things from place to place immediately.

665
00:49:47.219 --> 00:49:51.000
I mean, imagine if Amazon stopped working for 6 weeks, right?

666
00:49:51.059 --> 00:49:52.739
I mean, if it just completely shut down.

667
00:49:52.800 --> 00:49:53.699
People would go crazy.

668
00:49:53.820 --> 00:50:00.599
Remember in COVID, we were all locked in our homes, but the people at the Amazon fulfilment thing in Chalora still had to go to work.

669
00:50:00.659 --> 00:50:02.460
Yeah, absolutely.

670
00:50:02.460 --> 00:50:03.719
And that's what I was going to say.

671
00:50:03.780 --> 00:50:11.639
We live in that world now where, you know, you get your food delivered half an hour later by Uber Eats because that's the way that you feed yourself.

672
00:50:11.760 --> 00:50:17.400
You know, you have to go out to a supermarket and buy food and cook it or someone just brings it to you instantaneously.

673
00:50:17.519 --> 00:50:24.059
So, basically, if you had team ads and you go, I'm going to order a curry tonight, you press a button, they cook the curry and the curry, you know, there's not even a knock at the door.

674
00:50:24.119 --> 00:50:27.119
There's that sound, it goes, bling, and they're on the floor in the telephone room.

675
00:50:27.599 --> 00:50:30.300
T-Mat, Earl Grey, hot.

676
00:50:30.360 --> 00:50:31.679
Well, they're interesting.

677
00:50:31.739 --> 00:50:36.119
Interestingly though, there's no suggestion that you have the team at booth in your own home.

678
00:50:36.179 --> 00:50:38.820
Like you have to go to the street corner like it's a phone.

679
00:50:38.880 --> 00:50:41.820
There are there are personal, like local ones.

680
00:50:41.880 --> 00:50:43.079
But no, it's not a residential thing.

681
00:50:43.139 --> 00:50:44.039
Yes, yes.

682
00:50:44.099 --> 00:50:49.679
I enjoy the fact that it is setting up this world, which is a bit of a cul-de-sac for Doc 2 and never really revisit.

683
00:50:49.679 --> 00:50:49.920
No.

684
00:50:49.980 --> 00:50:50.639
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

685
00:50:50.639 --> 00:51:00.599
It has an impact on the storytelling because in common with a lot of late Trouton, There's world building, which is done before the doctor and his companions turn up.

686
00:51:00.659 --> 00:51:02.280
It's 8 minutes before they turn off.

687
00:51:02.280 --> 00:51:04.440
And in the space pirates, It's 11 minutes.

688
00:51:04.500 --> 00:51:05.039
Yeah.

689
00:51:05.039 --> 00:51:09.900
Whereas for a lot of time, up until this point, the doctor leads you into the story.

690
00:51:09.960 --> 00:51:13.260
Whereas now it's setting up the story and dropping the doctor into it.

691
00:51:13.320 --> 00:51:17.519
And I think that is a more sophisticated approach and something flies under the radar a little bit.

692
00:51:17.579 --> 00:51:18.480
Yeah, yeah.

693
00:51:18.539 --> 00:51:22.800
Yes, it's that for me is traditional Doctor Who, where the 1st sequence.

694
00:51:22.860 --> 00:51:24.179
Sometimes it's a long sequence.

695
00:51:24.239 --> 00:51:26.579
I mean, Attack of Assignment sort of does that as well, for instance.

696
00:51:26.639 --> 00:51:34.860
Um, and in fact, I didn't mention at the time, I don't think, but in Dalek Amazed Birth, that's a rare example way back then where you have this whole scene with the Roman drowning in the river.

697
00:51:34.920 --> 00:51:37.679
Yeah, yeah. before the task even appear on screen.

698
00:51:37.739 --> 00:51:40.559
You feel like you get to know the world that they're about to arrive in.

699
00:51:40.679 --> 00:51:44.820
In fact, in Dalek Invasion of Earth, then the doctor leaves and the story continues.

700
00:51:44.880 --> 00:51:48.300
So it's absolutely being told from the point of view of that world.

701
00:51:48.360 --> 00:51:54.360
Whereas here we get what is a very standard trout and thing of them all just sort of racking off.

702
00:51:54.539 --> 00:51:56.340
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

703
00:51:56.400 --> 00:51:57.000
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

704
00:51:57.059 --> 00:52:04.320
I do find a little bit talking of tea, Matt, a little bit baffling the choices of the cities on the wall.

705
00:52:04.380 --> 00:52:08.639
Well, yes, but there's Ismir, which is a 3rd rate Turkish city.

706
00:52:08.699 --> 00:52:10.559
So it's not even anchor.

707
00:52:10.619 --> 00:52:11.579
Exactly.

708
00:52:11.639 --> 00:52:20.159
And tellingly, nowhere in Asia or Africa is very Europe centre. and both Calcutta and Bombay.

709
00:52:21.000 --> 00:52:25.800
Well, I was going to say, here's the thing that's very strange if you're a Canadian.

710
00:52:25.860 --> 00:52:27.719
They do Toronto and Ottawa.

711
00:52:27.780 --> 00:52:30.000
Now Canada's pretty freaking big.

712
00:52:30.059 --> 00:52:34.559
These are the 2 cities that are like right next to each other basically in Ontario.

713
00:52:34.619 --> 00:52:35.639
Vancouver.

714
00:52:36.000 --> 00:52:38.400
It's like Vancouver, Vancouver gets no food.

715
00:52:38.460 --> 00:52:42.360
Halifax gets no food. you know, everybody has to live in Toronto.

716
00:52:42.420 --> 00:52:43.139
I mean, come on.

717
00:52:43.199 --> 00:52:45.480
Maybe they operate a spoke system.

718
00:52:45.539 --> 00:52:46.320
One can only imagine.

719
00:52:46.380 --> 00:52:48.239
That's what I would think. like the hub cities.

720
00:52:48.300 --> 00:52:55.860
I was kind of wondering whether Canberra was a little bit more of a big deal, like in the 60s, because, you know, we're building lovely public buildings and it's kind of...

721
00:52:55.860 --> 00:52:58.559
Well, I think in 198, it's still apartment house with a paddock.

722
00:52:58.619 --> 00:53:00.539
I don't think there's much there still.

723
00:53:00.599 --> 00:53:02.280
And a high court, I think.

724
00:53:02.340 --> 00:53:03.000
Yeah, right.

725
00:53:03.059 --> 00:53:03.900
Yeah.

726
00:53:03.960 --> 00:53:05.579
It's still basically that now.

727
00:53:05.639 --> 00:53:16.980
But you can, you can imagine if we needed a great big greenfield site near a decent population centred to build the team that's hub.

728
00:53:17.039 --> 00:53:18.960
You could do it in Canberra Rama.

729
00:53:19.019 --> 00:53:19.500
Cobar.

730
00:53:19.860 --> 00:53:21.719
I wish I could.

731
00:53:21.719 --> 00:53:22.860
Let's not go that far.

732
00:53:22.920 --> 00:53:24.719
I said near population.

733
00:53:24.780 --> 00:53:31.800
I wish I could believe that Brian Hale saw anyone working in Britain at that point knew enough about Canberra to have put that much thought into it.

734
00:53:31.860 --> 00:53:38.460
Well, remember, I think when the Sydney overtake Melbourne again as the larger city in Australia, and now Melbourne's probably about to overtake Sydney again.

735
00:53:38.460 --> 00:53:46.860
It's not inconceivable that even though it was a parliament house in a paddock in 1968, you can imagine that 100 years from there, being the larger city in Australia.

736
00:53:46.980 --> 00:53:48.420
I don't think you can.

737
00:53:48.420 --> 00:53:52.800
I don't think I don't think that much thought went into it, but it was just...

738
00:53:52.800 --> 00:53:58.079
It's just, I think it's a shame that Brian Hales can have these big concepts.

739
00:53:58.139 --> 00:54:02.280
And like you said earlier, Jeremy, you know, not to a whole lot with them.

740
00:54:02.340 --> 00:54:04.860
Like he has the concepts, then it doesn't develop them.

741
00:54:04.920 --> 00:54:09.059
And so the storytelling is so childish on some level.

742
00:54:09.119 --> 00:54:11.340
And a lot of it is covered by the direction.

743
00:54:11.400 --> 00:54:13.380
Like we said, you know, you get carried along by it.

744
00:54:13.440 --> 00:54:30.719
But to have set up this world and then have Eldred as someone who's basically built a rocket in his backyard with a launch pad and everything, which is ready to go the following day, and then these 3 people turn up and they're like, you know rockets, you can pilot it for us, and then they go up to the moon without spacesuits and things.

745
00:54:30.780 --> 00:54:35.639
There's so many levels removed there which just takes it away from being a good production.

746
00:54:35.699 --> 00:54:37.679
Isn't that ambassadors of death, though?

747
00:54:37.739 --> 00:54:39.599
The doctor at least is in the space suit.

748
00:54:39.659 --> 00:54:40.079
Thank you very much.

749
00:54:40.139 --> 00:54:43.500
Also, they are at the space centre.

750
00:54:43.559 --> 00:54:46.079
And he's also a member of unit and everything.

751
00:54:46.139 --> 00:54:46.800
Exactly.

752
00:54:46.860 --> 00:54:52.739
The funny thing, I love that when Miss Kelly just turns to Radner and goes, who are these people?

753
00:54:52.739 --> 00:54:53.579
And like, what?

754
00:54:53.639 --> 00:54:57.960
And he's like, and he's just like, no, they're, Rather's just like, they're perfect, you know?

755
00:54:58.019 --> 00:55:07.199
Also, by the way, I laugh every single time they mention Radner's 1st name when Eldrin goes, but listen, Julian, I'm like, Julian, that's not a Julian.

756
00:55:07.260 --> 00:55:11.400
That guy's many things, but he is not, his name is Julian Radnor.

757
00:55:11.460 --> 00:55:12.840
No, no, no, no, no.

758
00:55:12.900 --> 00:55:14.880
Well, Eldred's Daniel.

759
00:55:14.940 --> 00:55:16.199
Daniel and Julie.

760
00:55:16.800 --> 00:55:22.500
The funny thing is with Miss Kelly saying that, it's almost like she said the quiet part out loud.

761
00:55:22.559 --> 00:55:25.320
It's sort of the part that we're not supposed to point.

762
00:55:25.380 --> 00:55:27.420
Yeah, we're not... not supposed to bring that up.

763
00:55:27.780 --> 00:55:33.179
But also it's a little bit like, well, you know, the doctor's passed his exams and Zoe's very smart.

764
00:55:33.239 --> 00:55:34.980
Why are they sending the dumb scots?

765
00:55:36.420 --> 00:55:37.739
They do actually...

766
00:55:37.800 --> 00:55:39.480
He makes his way onto the thing.

767
00:55:39.539 --> 00:55:41.760
You know, he isn't initially going to be included.

768
00:55:41.820 --> 00:55:43.019
Yeah.

769
00:55:43.019 --> 00:55:44.579
And the other childish aspect.

770
00:55:44.639 --> 00:55:52.860
I find is there's way too much hiding behind filing cabinets and doors and walls in full view of the ice warriors, but that's a bit.

771
00:55:52.860 --> 00:55:54.000
Have you seen Doctor Who?

772
00:55:54.119 --> 00:56:15.179
No, I just saying that despite, yes, despite the brilliant direction, otherwise, that is the one area where it's not as successful. basically that scene when the ice warrior comes into the blasting room with the laces and there's people hiding behind filing cabinets within full view.

773
00:56:15.239 --> 00:56:17.039
And the iceware, yeah, it looks straight at him.

774
00:56:17.159 --> 00:56:23.340
There's a pretty great one, though, where Jamie and Zoe are hiding behind a really sort of excitingly designed one.

775
00:56:23.400 --> 00:56:26.699
Yes, that was, you know, where the ice warrior sort of comes in.

776
00:56:26.760 --> 00:56:30.059
But it genuinely can't see them because they're properly occluded.

777
00:56:30.119 --> 00:56:31.079
A little bit more shadow.

778
00:56:31.139 --> 00:56:34.500
I mean, it's difficult in monochrome because it's a little bit more shadow and so on.

779
00:56:34.559 --> 00:56:46.199
Just to reclaim everything, how great is that launch sequence early on where the letters and the patterns are projected on Kelly's face, the numbers and the computer is really weird.

780
00:56:46.260 --> 00:56:48.119
Like that talking computer is really strange.

781
00:56:48.179 --> 00:56:55.619
Just so many nice touches that, you know, I can forgive the fact that ice warriors are in those little tiny helmets and it's probably all steamed.

782
00:56:55.679 --> 00:56:57.300
Their breath is steaming up.

783
00:56:57.300 --> 00:56:58.079
They're little goggles.

784
00:56:58.139 --> 00:56:58.800
They can't see.

785
00:56:58.920 --> 00:56:59.519
They can't see a thing.

786
00:57:00.780 --> 00:57:07.260
Every time we're not seeing them, they're pulling off the helmet going, Neville, can you see anything in this?

787
00:57:07.739 --> 00:57:08.760
put it back on.

788
00:57:08.820 --> 00:57:10.980
You've got to redesign these helmets.

789
00:57:11.039 --> 00:57:13.679
Isn't that where they say I'm dying for a fag?

790
00:57:13.800 --> 00:57:16.500
Is that an adventurous face?

791
00:57:16.559 --> 00:57:16.980
Yes, yes.

792
00:57:16.980 --> 00:57:20.940
Do they have your family?

793
00:57:21.659 --> 00:57:28.619
I just, I think it's a shame because there's so much that is good about this story and there's so much that's interesting and the concepts.

794
00:57:28.679 --> 00:57:34.739
Brian Hales, for some reason, seems to default to childish storytelling, and I think that could have been very easily fixed.

795
00:57:49.920 --> 00:57:59.460
So, I think we sort of mentioned before that the ice worries when they first arrive are very, very much a base under siege monster.

796
00:57:59.460 --> 00:58:05.280
And here, while this story does feature a base under siege, it's not really a base under siege story.

797
00:58:05.579 --> 00:58:07.440
No, I agree with that.

798
00:58:07.500 --> 00:58:10.619
They invert it, which is really interesting.

799
00:58:10.679 --> 00:58:18.000
So, I think when the base under sieges get gruelling is because it's all about what happens if they get in, right?

800
00:58:18.059 --> 00:58:19.260
And that's and take over.

801
00:58:19.320 --> 00:58:21.599
And I think this is not about that.

802
00:58:21.659 --> 00:58:29.820
This is about initially what happens if they get in, but then it becomes more about what happens if they get out and spread from here.

803
00:58:29.880 --> 00:58:30.539
Yeah, yeah.

804
00:58:30.539 --> 00:58:32.940
And that broadens out the canvas a lot.

805
00:58:33.000 --> 00:58:37.739
Um, so it becomes about these sort of reversals of fortune.

806
00:58:37.800 --> 00:58:39.179
How do we keep them on there?

807
00:58:39.239 --> 00:58:40.500
Okay, now they've escaped.

808
00:58:40.559 --> 00:58:42.000
How do we find out what they're doing?

809
00:58:42.059 --> 00:58:45.960
And then how do we push them back to the moon base and how do we limit them?

810
00:58:46.019 --> 00:58:53.400
And it means that there's reversals of fortune and reversals of territory within the moon base and earth.

811
00:58:53.519 --> 00:58:56.579
And I can only assume that's a Terrence Dix thing.

812
00:58:56.639 --> 00:58:59.940
Because that is exactly what he does in war games when he has to stretch.

813
00:59:00.000 --> 00:59:05.219
He moves the pieces around in an interesting way on the chessboard that's unexpected.

814
00:59:05.280 --> 00:59:07.139
But that's what I really noticed this time.

815
00:59:07.199 --> 00:59:19.079
I'm like, oh, it's the base is important because it's an airport because it's a hub because it's a way to get to more dangerous, vulnerable places, and that makes it a lot more interesting than some remote location.

816
00:59:19.139 --> 00:59:36.360
There's the sequence in episode four, I think, where the ice warrior, T-Mats down into Commander Radna's face, and it's actually quite a confronting sequence because it blasts all of these soldiers, and, you know, Radna looks out the door, you know, fabulous Ronald Lee hummed being amazing as ever.

817
00:59:36.420 --> 00:59:37.860
In his adult diapers.

818
00:59:38.340 --> 00:59:40.079
Oh my god.

819
00:59:40.139 --> 00:59:41.039
What were they thinking?

820
00:59:41.039 --> 00:59:44.400
When poor answer to George or something, turns on.

821
00:59:45.659 --> 00:59:50.880
It's just what, who, what, that is a what, that is a kind of a curious creative choice.

822
00:59:50.940 --> 00:59:52.920
Well, I think it depends on which one.

823
00:59:52.980 --> 00:59:53.400
Oh my god.

824
00:59:54.119 --> 00:59:59.039
I mean, it literally is the we have to wear space clothes there.

825
00:59:59.099 --> 01:00:00.599
Yeah, yeah.

826
01:00:00.659 --> 01:00:02.159
You would never do it in the new series.

827
01:00:02.219 --> 01:00:04.679
You would have him wear a suit because he's a...

828
01:00:04.679 --> 01:00:05.579
With a different colour.

829
01:00:05.639 --> 01:00:06.539
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

830
01:00:06.599 --> 01:00:15.179
It was Toby Hadoke, who sat on our Bleak 7 podcast, maximum power, that Ronald Lee Hunt always gives a performance where you can believe there's a briefcase nearby.

831
01:00:15.659 --> 01:00:17.940
He's actually got a briefcase.

832
01:00:18.000 --> 01:00:18.420
It does.

833
01:00:18.420 --> 01:00:21.480
Why do you need a briefcase where you have team match?

834
01:00:21.539 --> 01:00:23.219
you know, you have a computer network computer.

835
01:00:23.280 --> 01:00:24.119
They don't understand.

836
01:00:24.179 --> 01:00:25.619
Well, they didn't have networks.

837
01:00:25.679 --> 01:00:27.360
And that was a big deal, wasn't it?

838
01:00:27.360 --> 01:00:28.679
Because cycling back to what I was saying.

839
01:00:28.739 --> 01:00:29.760
You have that great sequence.

840
01:00:29.760 --> 01:00:37.920
And then like you were saying, Jeremy, It's when they get out on location, that they become a real menace because now it's stomping through the English countryside.

841
01:00:38.039 --> 01:00:45.539
And it's like the Salurians where the virus gets out and suddenly, for the 1st time, the rest of the world is at stake. as opposed to just us in this base.

842
01:00:45.599 --> 01:00:48.599
It's no longer the base under siege. the world under siege.

843
01:00:48.659 --> 01:00:48.960
Exactly.

844
01:00:48.960 --> 01:00:55.260
It's wonderful how that's done by just increasingly urgent narration from the fantastic computer.

845
01:00:55.320 --> 01:00:57.179
It's so wonderful.

846
01:00:57.239 --> 01:00:58.800
People talking urgently in corridors.

847
01:00:58.860 --> 01:01:00.119
That's what makes Dr. Who.

848
01:01:00.179 --> 01:01:02.579
You don't need to see the people dying all around the world, starving.

849
01:01:02.699 --> 01:01:03.840
Although that is pretty great.

850
01:01:03.960 --> 01:01:04.679
Oh, yeah.

851
01:01:04.679 --> 01:01:06.780
And you don't use the wall, like 24 hour news.

852
01:01:06.840 --> 01:01:09.420
Oh, yeah, but you just get to Paddington Station, isn't it?

853
01:01:09.420 --> 01:01:13.800
Commander Rad not going to the corridor, looking out stage left and sewing, it's killed all the guards.

854
01:01:14.639 --> 01:01:17.699
Oh, we don't need to give them any fees.

855
01:01:17.760 --> 01:01:19.559
Any actors fees we have?

856
01:01:19.619 --> 01:01:21.840
Speaking of which, Phips.

857
01:01:21.900 --> 01:01:23.340
Yeah, Phipps.

858
01:01:23.340 --> 01:01:24.719
Yeah, he disappears.

859
01:01:24.780 --> 01:01:25.860
It doesn't disappear.

860
01:01:25.920 --> 01:01:28.320
He gets killed in the little hole in the little ventilator hole.

861
01:01:28.380 --> 01:01:29.099
He seems Zoe.

862
01:01:29.159 --> 01:01:30.420
Do we see it?

863
01:01:30.480 --> 01:01:31.260
No, we don't.

864
01:01:31.260 --> 01:01:34.079
Yes, the ice where he turns to him and he goes, look up, Zoe.

865
01:01:34.139 --> 01:01:35.579
And it's the whole thing.

866
01:01:35.639 --> 01:01:38.820
But you don't see him crumple and goes, No, cut quickly, Nathan.

867
01:01:38.880 --> 01:01:40.260
It was cut too quickly.

868
01:01:40.320 --> 01:01:42.000
I thought he ducked in time.

869
01:01:42.059 --> 01:01:43.739
He's terrific, by the way.

870
01:01:43.800 --> 01:01:44.940
Like, do you know what I mean?

871
01:01:44.940 --> 01:01:48.480
That whole sequence early on when he's, it's so cool.

872
01:01:48.539 --> 01:01:58.139
He's like, he goes into that little room and you see him figure out, okay, I need to shut down this because he, and then I need to build that and he's building the solar thing and it's just like, he's great.

873
01:01:58.199 --> 01:02:01.139
And then he gets that little great scene with Zoe where he gets scared.

874
01:02:01.199 --> 01:02:03.539
Moving things out of the way to find the plug.

875
01:02:03.599 --> 01:02:09.900
But just the thing about the, not the big, big, big, um, liberator gun ones that go into the wall, but the plugs on the floor.

876
01:02:09.960 --> 01:02:11.400
Of course, you know...

877
01:02:11.460 --> 01:02:13.980
You little powerboard, that is just UK plugs.

878
01:02:14.039 --> 01:02:17.159
Because when I was watching, they said 19, they were space plugs.

879
01:02:17.219 --> 01:02:19.800
Yes, because it looked like these heavy duty things.

880
01:02:19.800 --> 01:02:28.139
Because of course our plugs in Australia and like yours in North America are much smaller than these great big British things that were obviously designed, you know, when electricity was new.

881
01:02:28.980 --> 01:02:31.920
And they haven't bothered to upgrade themselves.

882
01:02:31.980 --> 01:02:34.320
And I thought, oh, they're weird space plugs.

883
01:02:34.380 --> 01:02:37.320
It was built by Winston Churchill. change it.

884
01:02:37.380 --> 01:02:38.760
It was built by Churchill.

885
01:02:38.820 --> 01:02:48.239
One of the things I love too is other 60s Doctor Who would have a tedious, tedious scene where some man says like, you're just a computer.

886
01:02:48.300 --> 01:02:51.599
You don't care about, you know, and it would be some, but she's never liked that.

887
01:02:51.659 --> 01:02:54.239
She's seen as tremendously important and respectful.

888
01:02:54.840 --> 01:03:06.719
And even when she goes to go do things, she's taking action and being in charge and saying to command Radner, like, listen, you may have these concerns, but I'm the only one who can do this.

889
01:03:06.780 --> 01:03:14.280
Now, we can argue how silly it is that she's the only person on earth that can fix team at that's a bit insane.

890
01:03:14.340 --> 01:03:33.539
Yeah, I guess, but I do love that she's never like, she's never really put down and she's never really infantilized or criticised in the way that so many of the arguably like positive representations of women in Doctor Who during this time invariably get made fun of in a scene or two.

891
01:03:33.599 --> 01:03:35.460
And she doesn't really, which is great.

892
01:03:35.519 --> 01:03:41.280
Everyone is reliably in awe of her, which is exactly how I feel about her as well.

893
01:03:41.340 --> 01:03:42.599
Yeah, and we never...

894
01:03:42.659 --> 01:03:43.559
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

895
01:03:43.619 --> 01:03:45.300
And the performance is coming to the party.

896
01:03:45.360 --> 01:03:48.719
The performance is absolutely occupying that.

897
01:03:48.780 --> 01:03:50.340
Otherwise, I actually have to go above your head.

898
01:03:50.460 --> 01:03:51.239
Like, all that.

899
01:03:51.300 --> 01:03:52.019
Yeah, brilliant.

900
01:03:52.079 --> 01:03:53.280
And she's really good.

901
01:03:53.340 --> 01:03:58.079
She does loosen up slightly, you know, when she's on the moon base with the others, but she never loses the edge.

902
01:03:58.139 --> 01:03:59.159
She's really good.

903
01:03:59.219 --> 01:03:59.699
Fantastic.

904
01:03:59.699 --> 01:04:06.719
And you did that, you need that moment at the end where she has her viral moment where she tossed some jelly babies and breaks into a smile.

905
01:04:09.000 --> 01:04:12.000
But it's extraordinary that even 5 years later.

906
01:04:12.059 --> 01:04:21.360
I mean, I know Harry Sullivan's a different character, but even 5 years of production, later, you've got Harry making a point that the chief minister is a woman, fancier woman being top of the totem pole.

907
01:04:21.420 --> 01:04:21.840
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

908
01:04:21.840 --> 01:04:26.340
Whereas you don't have Jamie saying, why is this?

909
01:04:26.340 --> 01:04:26.760
How can she be?

910
01:04:26.820 --> 01:04:27.599
in command, yes.

911
01:04:27.659 --> 01:04:28.320
It's interesting.

912
01:04:28.440 --> 01:04:29.760
Like, it's not even mentioned.

913
01:04:29.820 --> 01:04:31.860
Which is the most refreshing thing.

914
01:04:31.920 --> 01:04:37.380
It's not the Anne Travers moment of when, you know, what's a pretty little girl like you're doing in a place like this.

915
01:04:37.500 --> 01:04:43.440
And she basically has to sort of say, well, I wanted to become a scientist to, I became a scientist.

916
01:04:43.440 --> 01:04:46.139
And she's contemptuous of the soldier.

917
01:04:46.500 --> 01:04:48.360
And we're meant to feel contemptuous of the soldier.

918
01:04:48.420 --> 01:04:50.460
But nevertheless, there's someone asking that question.

919
01:04:50.519 --> 01:04:54.239
Although it is supposed to be the 60s, not the distant future, not 100 years hence.

920
01:04:54.360 --> 01:04:57.780
Well, I mean, we have the president of earth in front or in space.

921
01:04:57.900 --> 01:04:58.440
We do too.

922
01:04:58.500 --> 01:05:00.480
Yeah, and that's not mentioned as being unusual.

923
01:05:00.539 --> 01:05:07.860
Just going back to the base under siege thing, I just want to redirect that point I made earlier about this being a more of a pertly story in that regard, because it's not, it's not a straight back to season five.

924
01:05:07.920 --> 01:05:09.539
It's like Green Death.

925
01:05:09.599 --> 01:05:12.780
You've got the kind of the bass, which is like the nut touch.

926
01:05:12.840 --> 01:05:18.239
Then you've got global chemicals, which is effectively the moonbase, which is where the villains are all that. then you've got the then you've got the mind.

927
01:05:18.300 --> 01:05:25.440
You've got that kind of dynamic setup that exists in lots of other pertly stories as well. in space, same sort of deal, you know.

928
01:05:25.500 --> 01:05:35.280
Well, I mean, the other thing is too, that the base is normally isolated, which is a feature of it and it has been in the bases so far and this base is just that close.

929
01:05:35.340 --> 01:05:36.719
You know, you can walk...

930
01:05:36.719 --> 01:05:48.900
Well, not with team actors, not when you, but, you know, just the surprise of having Miss Kelly just walk onto the moon base. and Fuchsium agreeing to just send them back with no problem at all and they're just immediately back.

931
01:05:48.960 --> 01:05:50.880
It's a function of the premise, isn't it?

932
01:05:50.940 --> 01:05:54.480
Yeah, you're based under siege to lock out the monsters who are besieging you.

933
01:05:54.539 --> 01:05:55.500
You have to lock yourselves in.

934
01:05:55.559 --> 01:05:56.219
Yes.

935
01:05:56.280 --> 01:05:58.559
It has its cake and it eats it too, right?

936
01:05:58.679 --> 01:06:00.179
So it does that it's remote.

937
01:06:00.239 --> 01:06:01.559
It's so remote, it's on the moon.

938
01:06:01.619 --> 01:06:07.139
But it also means that the threat can get right into your living room in 2 seconds.

939
01:06:07.199 --> 01:06:12.599
So it gets to be both, which is really, I think, a novel idea, a way of dealing with it.

940
01:06:36.659 --> 01:06:39.239
Well, that's all time we have this week.

941
01:06:39.300 --> 01:06:45.599
We'll be back next week for a new year of teatime Dr. Mengala for tots in the Soltarian experiment.

942
01:06:45.659 --> 01:07:03.179
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts, and you can keep up with us on our website, 500yearDiary.com, where you'll find our social media links as well as links to all of our other podcasts, including our other Doctor Who podcasts, flight through entirety, and the 2nd grade and bountiful Human Empire.

943
01:07:03.239 --> 01:07:08.099
Until next time, can you all stop stealing Professor Eldred's stuff?

944
01:07:08.159 --> 01:07:09.539
It's really mean.

945
01:07:09.599 --> 01:07:12.360
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

946
01:07:12.420 --> 01:07:13.199
Good night.

947
01:07:13.320 --> 01:07:14.099
Good night.

948
01:07:14.159 --> 01:07:14.699
Bye bye.

949
01:07:26.760 --> 01:07:33.119
That was 500 year diary, starring Nathan Bottomley, Peter Griffiths, Simon Moore, and Jeremy Radick.

950
01:07:33.179 --> 01:07:35.880
The theme was composed by Cameron Lamb.

951
01:07:35.940 --> 01:07:43.619
This episode, the costumes are in the cupboard, was recorded on the 23rd of March 2025 and released on the 11th of May.

952
01:07:43.860 --> 01:07:49.679
There are just 4 more episodes left of the 2nd great and bountiful human Empire, probably.

953
01:07:49.739 --> 01:07:57.000
So head on over to greatandbountiful.com tomorrow to hear our hot take on this week's new Doctor Who episode.

954
01:07:57.059 --> 01:07:58.739
The story and the engine.

955
01:08:11.340 --> 01:08:13.079
What do we think?

956
01:08:13.139 --> 01:08:14.280
I think that might be it.

957
01:08:14.340 --> 01:08:16.199
I think I think that's...

958
01:08:16.260 --> 01:08:16.920
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

959
01:08:16.979 --> 01:08:17.760
That was really good.

960
01:08:17.819 --> 01:08:19.380
I actually thought...

961
01:08:19.380 --> 01:08:21.479
Yeah, no, no.

962
01:08:21.539 --> 01:08:26.699
It's the other thing is, mentioning like the solar power, which is an interesting thing rather than nuclear.

963
01:08:26.760 --> 01:08:32.699
Weather control. is such a thing in the 60s and it doesn't really come up in the 21st.

964
01:08:32.880 --> 01:08:36.180
So we just had Adam here recording last week's episode.

965
01:08:36.239 --> 01:08:39.119
And he said, it's an English thing.

966
01:08:40.020 --> 01:08:42.180
I bet we've been Spanish.

967
01:08:42.180 --> 01:08:43.979
Sunny days and all that.

968
01:08:44.520 --> 01:08:45.300
Wasn't that a thing?

969
01:08:45.420 --> 01:08:52.140
I think that what he said was, it's colonialism because it's like they would go to these other countries where there was much nicer weather.

970
01:08:52.140 --> 01:08:55.140
And obviously they would bring all the good stuff back to England.

971
01:08:55.199 --> 01:08:57.420
Can we bring the weather back in some way?

972
01:08:57.479 --> 01:08:58.380
Do you think?

973
01:08:58.439 --> 01:09:00.300
And I think...

974
01:09:00.300 --> 01:09:03.720
If I only even could stop it from rain during the... during the test at Lords.

975
01:09:03.779 --> 01:09:11.220
And of course, you know, like the Martians are invading England with a thing that dissolves on contact with water.

976
01:09:12.060 --> 01:09:15.180
So maybe there was methods.

977
01:09:15.300 --> 01:09:19.199
Maybe there was method to Brian Hale's dry storytelling after all.

978
01:09:19.979 --> 01:09:26.399
But it's funny how weather's like, I mean, even the cloud seating thing, that was something that they stopped doing trying to do in the 80s.

979
01:09:26.760 --> 01:09:27.779
Yeah, yeah, it was a thing.

980
01:09:27.779 --> 01:09:28.739
I seem to remember that too.

981
01:09:28.800 --> 01:09:31.319
But you've got that little device because this is the other thing.

982
01:09:31.380 --> 01:09:42.359
Like last night when I'm watching this, Jeremy, I'm sending everyone little screen grams of all of the stupid, like there's that wonderful light, the light that just has the word delay.

983
01:09:42.720 --> 01:09:44.579
Isn't it wonderful?

984
01:09:44.579 --> 01:09:47.399
I want that lies in my life somewhere.

985
01:09:47.460 --> 01:09:53.819
And the, and the, you know, the scent graping that goes up to a 100 and that lamentable...

986
01:09:53.819 --> 01:09:56.279
And the weather control...

987
01:09:56.340 --> 01:09:58.079
We just have the series of 4 switches.

988
01:09:58.199 --> 01:10:00.180
Well we can't see Scotland and Wales.

989
01:10:01.260 --> 01:10:04.979
But presumably it's wet, like on the other side.

990
01:10:05.039 --> 01:10:07.140
Yes, we're switching it from wet.

991
01:10:09.359 --> 01:10:16.140
And there's also that terrific moment as well, which is a really doctory moment and might be happening for the 1st time, Peter.

992
01:10:16.199 --> 01:10:30.899
Let's see if this is right, where you've got Trouton on the floor. pulled a whole heap of wires out of the desk because the controls are fused and he's trying to join them together to make the the rain happen and he's just randomly joining bits of wine.

993
01:10:30.960 --> 01:10:33.420
Oh, that doesn't that doesn't spark their point, right?

994
01:10:35.699 --> 01:10:36.899
That's so Doctor Who.

995
01:10:36.960 --> 01:10:38.880
It must be happening for the 1st time.

996
01:10:38.939 --> 01:10:39.600
And it happens.

997
01:10:39.659 --> 01:10:39.840
Yes.

998
01:10:39.899 --> 01:10:43.380
So it's obviously Terrence, because that's the kind of thing that happens a lot.

999
01:10:43.380 --> 01:10:45.420
Yeah, it's carnival of monsters. touched this out.

1000
01:10:47.039 --> 01:10:58.079
But but he's got that wonderful moment too, where he pulls out this gigantic rat's nest of wires and he goes, he says something like chart and says, like, wow, this doesn't look too complicated or something.

1001
01:10:58.140 --> 01:11:02.039
He says something funny. which is just so funny.

1002
01:11:02.100 --> 01:11:04.500
I mean, that's, yeah, it's so delightful.

1003
01:11:04.560 --> 01:11:09.600
Can we can we say that the water resolution is pretty lame and I wish it was better than that?

1004
01:11:09.659 --> 01:11:10.979
It's pretty lame, right?

1005
01:11:11.039 --> 01:11:13.020
Oh, I think it's fun.

1006
01:11:13.079 --> 01:11:14.579
What kills the story?

1007
01:11:14.640 --> 01:11:15.720
What happens to the?

1008
01:11:15.779 --> 01:11:20.699
No, no, because the Martians, the Martians have originally just all get the cold, get the common...

1009
01:11:20.760 --> 01:11:22.560
Yeah, common cold and war of the world.

1010
01:11:22.619 --> 01:11:23.159
Yes, exactly.

1011
01:11:23.220 --> 01:11:23.399
Yeah.

1012
01:11:23.460 --> 01:11:24.720
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1013
01:11:24.779 --> 01:11:25.079
Yeah.

1014
01:11:25.140 --> 01:11:29.220
So, I mean, it's a weakness that they that they hang a lantern on.

1015
01:11:29.340 --> 01:11:29.880
Do you know what I mean?

1016
01:11:29.939 --> 01:11:35.220
Like there's a clear weakness and that's why they said, do we know who the ice warrior is who gets sent to earth?

1017
01:11:35.340 --> 01:11:36.479
Sunny Caldin is?

1018
01:11:36.539 --> 01:11:37.439
Oh no doubt.

1019
01:11:37.500 --> 01:11:41.460
Yeah, because he's the one that makes the heroes. that makes the woman crash her car.

1020
01:11:41.579 --> 01:11:42.479
He's taking a wheel.

1021
01:11:44.340 --> 01:11:45.779
What?

1022
01:11:45.779 --> 01:11:48.960
Yeah, he's having a smoke or something.

1023
01:11:49.020 --> 01:11:51.060
He goes off because he can't he can't obviously undress.

1024
01:11:51.119 --> 01:11:52.920
And it's during one of the pauses and things.

1025
01:11:52.979 --> 01:11:54.600
And he's on Hampstead Heath.

1026
01:11:54.659 --> 01:11:55.800
Yes, or wherever it is.

1027
01:11:55.920 --> 01:11:57.060
It has it is, right?

1028
01:11:58.560 --> 01:12:00.479
Oh, that's delightful.

1029
01:12:00.479 --> 01:12:02.220
Ferguson says that that's...

1030
01:12:02.220 --> 01:12:05.220
I wouldn't have been the 1st person to pull out his Willy on Hamstead.

1031
01:12:05.279 --> 01:12:06.239
Oh, I should think not.

1032
01:12:07.380 --> 01:12:10.619
I don't know whether it was a wee mate.

1033
01:12:10.619 --> 01:12:15.840
That's one of those stories that enters fan mythology because it's recounted in Doctor Who a Celebration.

1034
01:12:15.960 --> 01:12:18.239
Oh, actually, yes, yes.

1035
01:12:18.300 --> 01:12:21.060
That's the most important tone to Paul.

1036
01:12:21.119 --> 01:12:22.380
That's right.

1037
01:12:23.159 --> 01:12:24.600
All right.

1038
01:12:24.659 --> 01:12:25.739
Well, I think we might wind that up.

1039
01:12:25.800 --> 01:12:26.340
That was really fun.

1040
01:12:26.399 --> 01:12:27.659
That was that was excellent.