WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-05-03 at 08:39:48

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to 500 year diary.

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The only Doctor Who podcast now ready to start Operational System

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2.

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Operational System 2 will now begin.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Adam.

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I'm Peter.

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And I'm Todd.

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It's been 4 months since the doctor 1st met the cyberman and

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tonight 8100000 people have tuned in to see him do it again.

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In a story that many of them undoubtedly found eerily familiar.

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But did that story succeed in creating a thrilling new recurring

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enemy for the doctor?

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Let's find out as we discuss the moon base.

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So, I think that the moon base, just four months after the 10th

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planet is more or less exactly the same.

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Discuss, discuss.

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That's like saying all of Terry Nation's Dalek stories are the

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same.

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Oh except they aren't.

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So let's think about it, right?

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We have a base with an international crew entirely made up of

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men.

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It's in a distant location.

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What else?

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We have a group of people who stair helplessly on as a space

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rocket is deflected off to its certain death.

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We have cybermen striding across a strange landscape in order to

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reach the base.

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We're in constant contact with an authority figure off the base

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who we have a slightly fractious relationship with.

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We have an intransigent base commander who we have to deal with.

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We have an intransigent base commander.

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You have cybermen in disguise.

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Yes, and then revealing themselves.

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I was here all along.

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Holly or...

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We kill all the cybermen and then more of them reappear after

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that.

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Have they missed anything?

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It's bigger and it's better, I think.

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There's also in the 10th planet, you have a person of colour in a

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really important job, but in this one they're the chef.

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That's true. got a little bit backwards.

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Yes, in 4 months.

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So you think this is bigger and better?

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I think this is bigger and better.

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I think there's an important thing here that the moon base is the

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template. for future Doctor Who.

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There's a lot of firsts in this story and because we don't

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necessarily watch Doctor Who in order anymore and we become kind

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of inured to what happened in Doctor Who, as you went along, that

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we lose track of the fact that this is new and different and

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vibrant.

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Doctor Who obviously has a base under siege formula, and this is

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where that starts.

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And I think this is the 1st army of implacable monsters who are

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kind, you mentioned striding across a barren landscape.

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This is the 1st story that really does that.

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And so I think this is Doctor Who going forwards and it's the key

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turning point in the black and white years.

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Yeah, it's also like we don't lose the main actor for an entire

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episode and their lines redistributed.

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Yeah.

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I think, I mean, I think that, uh, and I think Santa says this

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that Troughton's doctor works much better in a base under siege in

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a way where Hartnell is kind of uncomfortable.

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And his doctor is sort of super weird, I think, in the 10th

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planet.

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That thing where he writes the clue down on the piece of paper and

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stuff and shows them later.

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Like it's all just, he doesn't really know what's going on.

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Also, Hartner was so kind of strident and patrician that when he

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bumps up against someone else like that, it's kind of you're like

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well, who am I barracking for here?

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You're both really annoying.

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Whereas Patrick Troughton's doctor is so like, oh, no, I'm going

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to undermine.

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I'm going to white ant everyone from, you know, by pulling their

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shoes off.

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That's what they're...

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It's a very strange moment.

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That's what qualified as turning down his performance.

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It is, because like the previous 3 stories.

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He'd been quite manic and over the top and dressing in funny

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outfits.

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I recently watched the underwater menace, which is the one before

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this, and it's almost like he's come in contact with Joseph 1st

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and gone, oh, have I been doing that for 3 books?

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Bring it down, love.

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Bring it down.

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I'm going to be a bit more normal.

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I want to say that I think this story is as important as the Dalek

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invasion of Earth. as what we discussed last week, because as

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Peter said, this is a line in the sand, this production team, over

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the last year, have been slowly building to this point, we've

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gotten rid of singular episode titles, we now have much bigger

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sets that don't look like they're just going to fall apart, except

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that it did.

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Of course it did.

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As you've mentioned on other podcasts, the floor has been raised.

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Total collapse of a story, which happened last week in terms of

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production, is not really going to happen again, we might have

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elements that are a bit dodge, like from bathing caps to little

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strings that we can see, but the total failure.

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I don't think is going to happen.

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And as you've said, we've dismantled the show, as we know it.

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We're now looking at things set in the near future on alien

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planets with humans, right, or human descendants, right?

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Moving forward.

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Whereas the heart and hear is much more science fantasy set, like

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sort of the 50s elements of sci-fi.

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Whereas this, when you look at it, you've got microphones. you've

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got tape reels, you've got, they're putting the science into the

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fiction, things that we can identify with, right?

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And I think, you know, we've had the war machines, we've had the

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10th planet, we're sort of building to this, the historicals are

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now gone.

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We may have historical settings, right?

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In a few episodes time, you know, they'll be back in time, but

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there's an evil to be fought.

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It's not about being in an historical context.

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We've just had the regeneration and as you've said, Patrick

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Charton hasn't been.

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He's been whatever, and here he suddenly is, right?

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We've still got the Hartnell opening titles, but they're gone

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after this.

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And this is something that we're used to, all of us in this room

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is that, you know, looking at talk 2 in the 70s, we're used to

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having change of doctors, change of opening titles, but all of

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this is just, all this building has all happened.

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We've also got Jamie who's got nothing to do with the 1st doctor.

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As Peter said, this is the template moving forward.

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This is the Doctor Who that we know.

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Yes, we'll talk about some, this is a bit rough in a few places

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but generally it's competent and it's what we know to be Doctor

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Who as opposed to the previous 2 years where Doctor Who has sort

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of been developing as television's been developed.

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And it's no surprise that this is based on the proto-template of

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the 10th planet.

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Because the 10th planet was the 1st time in 6 months that Doctor

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Who's ratings rebounded.

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And I don't think all of that is down to just a new and

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interesting adversary in the cybermen.

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I think it was the type of story that they discovered, they could

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tell well and that the audience took to.

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I have to say that I think that the base under siege is actually a

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step backwards and it's slightly regressive.

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Yeah.

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I mean, just from the point of view of the shows, like what the

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show is about.

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Like the show now becomes about fighting an external force that's

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trying to break in.

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But it's hard not to read it.

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There's some sort of weird cold war thing.

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And I think that's just a little bit of a shame.

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And it restricts what Doctor Who can do.

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And that's not always such a bad thing.

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The Philip Hinchcliffe here, I think, drastically restricts what

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Doctor Who can do.

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And so in its own way, just to pert we.

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Yeah, and they both raise the floor. you know, like really well.

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Like they've identified something they can do well.

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But I mean, the following year is a bit of a grind, isn't it?

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But I mean, that's the fault of the production team.

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They found something that worked and then they just leaned into it

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to death. yeah exactly.

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Also, if they used it, they found something sparing.

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Affordable.

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Like, it's like, if you can immortize the one giant set for 4

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episodes and trap everyone in it, then it's like, oh, we don't

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have to build a new set every week.

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We don't have to do much exterior filming.

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We can do a couple of model shots and we're done.

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I think it's also building on that.

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This is considered by everyone involved to be the key Cyberman

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story because not only when it was novelized, it was just

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novelized as Doctor Who and the Cyberman, it was also, I think

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like the ninth or the 10th story, to be novelized in the 70s and

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the 1st Cyberman story.

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And so I think this was considered the template going forward.

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I remember reading that book and loving it and it felt like kind

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of like a science fiction crime book because there was the whole

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thing with the sugar and you finding out what it was.

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And then you watch the episode and you're like, oh, it's they just

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really fall over that.

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There's no deduction going on.

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But for some reason when I read the book, I mean, I was 12.

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But I thought it was like a really exciting, you know, revelation.

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It's funny, it was the only trout and novelisation that I'd ever

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bought. like I was just buying pertweis and Tobs. and but this was

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called Doctor Who in the Side Men.

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I definitely wanted to haven't.

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That's my 1st encounter with the 2nd doctor is reading that

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novelisation.

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And I didn't know about Jamie or Polly and Ben either.

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And such important things as well.

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The cover illustration is so evocative, even though it's the wrong

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cyberman.

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Yeah, fantastic.

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And it has interior. like it has its images inside.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Yeah, it's adorable.

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The other thing too, that I think that it does badly and that is

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almost immediately done better the following year. is that we have

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a base crew that has no characteristics of any kind.

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So Hobson's personality is that he's an intransigent base

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commander, and I guess the other person who has a personality is

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Andre Moran whose personality is what French?

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French.

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Yeah, cracks onto Polly the minute.

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That's right.

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To be fair, he's a proper failure and transigent.

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I actually find the base commander fairly reasonable compared to

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some of the other ones. compared to Cutler.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Like, they turn up out of nowhere.

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And I guess we're used to the doctor and companions being accused

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of being the people behind what's happening.

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But can I just say, Todd, this is the 1st instance in Doctor Who

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where someone turns around and says, these problems only begin

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when that strange doctor and his friends arrived.

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But they don't go and throw them in the brig or so we're going to

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put you out the airlock.

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He's quite willing for the doctors to find out, you know what's

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going on.

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So have a go at our science stuff.

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We don't have much, but you just go in there.

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You've got 24 hours.

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So it's a little bit different.

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I was actually, I didn't realise it was just Kit Pedler who wrote

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this.

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I'm just so used to Jerry Davis and Kip Peller or an idea by Kip

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Pedler.

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Jerry Davis was the script editor at this point.

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He was.

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Yeah, so it probably was, but you weren't allowed to credit

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yourself.

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If you were the...

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Yeah, I just thought that was interesting that it is, you know, the

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next year we're going to get all these base commanders, but I just

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thought he was a little less prickly than some of the ones coming

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up.

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I did think that they were sort of boring, though, the crew.

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And I went from watching this immediately to watching The Seeds of

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Death, which we're going to talk about next week.

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And just instantly it's full of characters who are really fun and

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have identifiable personalities and stuff and who interact with

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one another in a reasonable way.

250
00:12:17.879 --> 00:12:20.820
And this is obviously something that...

251
00:12:21.480 --> 00:12:24.299
But, well, you know, it's got Gia Kelly.

252
00:12:24.360 --> 00:12:25.080
She's awesome.

253
00:12:25.139 --> 00:12:26.460
For God's sake.

254
00:12:26.519 --> 00:12:30.120
Luis Pacho, who I 1st encountered in prisoner self blockage, but

255
00:12:30.120 --> 00:12:30.960
that's a story for another.

256
00:12:32.879 --> 00:12:36.059
And it's something that the new series does tremendously.

257
00:12:36.120 --> 00:12:40.980
Well, a few occasions, except for maybe the ganger to parter, where

258
00:12:40.980 --> 00:12:42.299
we have a base under siege.

259
00:12:42.360 --> 00:12:44.399
We have interesting and memorable character.

260
00:12:44.519 --> 00:12:46.620
And in fact, you have a repeat of the scene that you get here in

261
00:12:46.620 --> 00:12:50.100
episode one where Helson basically takes the doctor and co around

262
00:12:50.100 --> 00:12:53.460
introducing them to all of the plot functions of the characters in

263
00:12:53.460 --> 00:12:53.940
there.

264
00:12:54.000 --> 00:12:58.139
You have that in episodes like the Impossible Planet and Waters of

265
00:12:58.139 --> 00:12:58.559
Mars.

266
00:12:58.620 --> 00:13:00.419
You just have that same identifiable scene.

267
00:13:00.539 --> 00:13:04.620
I think the characters are just terribly underwritten. they're

268
00:13:04.620 --> 00:13:05.159
played well.

269
00:13:05.220 --> 00:13:08.159
Like, I feel like the actors are bringing some humanity to these

270
00:13:08.159 --> 00:13:12.779
characters that I think given lesser actors, we would have had a

271
00:13:12.779 --> 00:13:14.159
really boring episode.

272
00:13:14.220 --> 00:13:17.220
Like they're giving it a bit more than I think is on the page, to

273
00:13:17.220 --> 00:13:17.519
be honest.

274
00:13:17.580 --> 00:13:18.539
I agree with you.

275
00:13:18.600 --> 00:13:21.539
I actually felt that, you know, the Frenchman, the Australian, then

276
00:13:21.539 --> 00:13:23.399
there was the other guy creeping around who got zapped by the side

277
00:13:23.399 --> 00:13:23.759
of me.

278
00:13:23.820 --> 00:13:26.279
There was enough there was enough there going on where I thought

279
00:13:26.279 --> 00:13:29.220
you know, these guys are trying to bring a bit more to what's

280
00:13:29.220 --> 00:13:29.460
happening.

281
00:13:29.519 --> 00:13:33.179
My favourite one is Nils, who calls Hobson Hobby.

282
00:13:33.179 --> 00:13:35.340
And he's Danish.

283
00:13:35.340 --> 00:13:39.059
Yeah, he's Danish. something like, oh, we're getting a bit of a

284
00:13:39.059 --> 00:13:40.559
flap on or something like that.

285
00:13:40.620 --> 00:13:42.179
Like he speaks.

286
00:13:42.240 --> 00:13:45.899
It's like Sandy Toxic, you know, like a Dane with a very, very

287
00:13:45.899 --> 00:13:47.100
polish English accent.

288
00:13:47.220 --> 00:13:51.659
I mean, I like the fact that, yeah, okay, they're revisiting what

289
00:13:51.659 --> 00:13:55.559
they just did in the 10th planet, but they have to sort of ground

290
00:13:55.559 --> 00:13:58.200
their feet and make sure they can do this from a certain point of

291
00:13:58.200 --> 00:13:58.500
view.

292
00:13:58.559 --> 00:14:01.019
Like, you know, we've done it once and we've done it roughly.

293
00:14:01.080 --> 00:14:03.960
We just want to solidify what we've done before we can build on

294
00:14:03.960 --> 00:14:04.200
it.

295
00:14:04.259 --> 00:14:08.220
And if it had been 3 years ago, they probably would all be in

296
00:14:08.220 --> 00:14:08.700
English.

297
00:14:08.759 --> 00:14:10.200
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

298
00:14:10.259 --> 00:14:13.080
It is the same thing, isn't it, in the 10th planet?

299
00:14:13.080 --> 00:14:14.639
And it's the same thing in the wheel, in space.

300
00:14:14.700 --> 00:14:17.879
Like the sidemen are sort of constantly attacking these sort of

301
00:14:17.879 --> 00:14:21.659
multicultural bases and it's actually like not such a bad thing.

302
00:14:21.779 --> 00:14:22.860
Maybe they're Nazis.

303
00:14:22.919 --> 00:14:25.259
I mean, maybe they're British.

304
00:14:25.799 --> 00:14:28.620
They found something to colonise.

305
00:14:28.679 --> 00:14:30.360
Is that a thing as well?

306
00:14:30.360 --> 00:14:33.899
They're deliberately upping the multiculturalism of these bases to

307
00:14:33.899 --> 00:14:37.379
contrast against sort of the featurelessness of the side.

308
00:14:37.440 --> 00:14:38.399
Could that be a thing?

309
00:14:39.720 --> 00:14:42.240
Yeah, it's like everyone has this fear of a monoculture.

310
00:14:42.299 --> 00:14:44.940
And it's the monoculture writ large.

311
00:14:45.000 --> 00:14:48.659
And I think it's also their way of talking about the future.

312
00:14:48.720 --> 00:14:52.860
You know, like you've had things like the United Nations and stuff

313
00:14:52.860 --> 00:14:54.779
start to happen after the war.

314
00:14:54.840 --> 00:14:58.620
And I mean, the United Nations are explicitly in the 10th planet

315
00:14:58.679 --> 00:15:01.139
where Kurt from Faulty Towers lives.

316
00:15:01.200 --> 00:15:03.840
Like, he's the United Nations guy.

317
00:15:03.899 --> 00:15:04.379
Yeah.

318
00:15:04.379 --> 00:15:06.600
He's behind a desk somewhere.

319
00:15:06.659 --> 00:15:08.759
Yeah, that's one thing that I miss actually.

320
00:15:08.820 --> 00:15:13.080
So we've got Rindberg in this one and he's just, he is someone

321
00:15:13.080 --> 00:15:13.740
isn't he?

322
00:15:13.860 --> 00:15:15.059
He's the he's the doctor.

323
00:15:15.120 --> 00:15:18.419
He is a doctor who is, of course, skin sale in Horror of Fang

324
00:15:18.419 --> 00:15:18.779
Rock.

325
00:15:18.840 --> 00:15:20.879
Yeah, he's the who has the...

326
00:15:20.879 --> 00:15:21.539
Yeah, yeah.

327
00:15:21.600 --> 00:15:23.700
He's infected and never speaks out loud.

328
00:15:23.759 --> 00:15:24.179
No.

329
00:15:24.240 --> 00:15:25.799
But he's Rinberg.

330
00:15:25.860 --> 00:15:30.000
Whereas you have the other guy in the 10th planet and there is

331
00:15:30.000 --> 00:15:33.480
that amazing moment in the 10th planet where a place that you

332
00:15:33.480 --> 00:15:36.179
think is completely safe from science. just on a screen.

333
00:15:36.240 --> 00:15:36.720
Yeah, yeah.

334
00:15:36.779 --> 00:15:39.960
The cybermen are on the south pole or whatever. in a distant weird

335
00:15:39.960 --> 00:15:43.259
place and suddenly they stride into his office and I don't think

336
00:15:43.259 --> 00:15:45.419
this has anything that quite equals the shock of that.

337
00:15:52.980 --> 00:15:58.860
I think this story gets so much right in kind of, like the tenor

338
00:15:58.860 --> 00:16:01.259
you were saying earlier about the performances, Todd, and how they

339
00:16:01.259 --> 00:16:02.519
sort of bring things to life.

340
00:16:02.580 --> 00:16:04.440
The tenor of the performances is right.

341
00:16:04.500 --> 00:16:08.159
The Heart Lera, and I love the Heart Lera from its extremes to its

342
00:16:08.159 --> 00:16:08.879
best to its worst.

343
00:16:08.940 --> 00:16:10.919
It could be a little bit woohoo sometimes.

344
00:16:10.980 --> 00:16:12.720
Yeah, especially the John Wild stuff.

345
00:16:12.779 --> 00:16:16.259
Whereas this kind of brings the program a bit more down to earth

346
00:16:16.259 --> 00:16:19.620
and I think makes it maybe more accessible to an older audience.

347
00:16:19.679 --> 00:16:23.820
It's not quite so kiddie sci-fi, even though some of the ways that

348
00:16:23.820 --> 00:16:25.500
it does things are a little bit kiddie.

349
00:16:25.559 --> 00:16:28.320
But the most important thing, and this goes back to what I was

350
00:16:28.320 --> 00:16:31.440
saying earlier about, you know, Doctor Who's motus operandi didn't

351
00:16:31.440 --> 00:16:32.399
arrive fully formed.

352
00:16:32.460 --> 00:16:33.539
It sort of happens.

353
00:16:33.600 --> 00:16:36.539
The most important thing is the show is leaning for the very 1st

354
00:16:36.539 --> 00:16:38.460
time into horror tropes.

355
00:16:38.519 --> 00:16:38.820
Yeah.

356
00:16:38.820 --> 00:16:43.139
And it's had moments of scare before, you know, menace.

357
00:16:43.200 --> 00:16:48.179
But now it's actively setting out to justify Doctor Who's behind

358
00:16:48.179 --> 00:16:50.100
the sofa reputation.

359
00:16:50.159 --> 00:16:55.080
Now, as far as I can identify behind the sofa was 1st mentioned in

360
00:16:55.080 --> 00:16:59.940
a newspaper article in 1973, where they said the Daleks were

361
00:16:59.940 --> 00:17:02.220
something to get the children hiding behind the sofa in happy

362
00:17:02.220 --> 00:17:04.200
anticipation of 25 minutes of fear.

363
00:17:04.259 --> 00:17:06.720
I don't think the Daleks ever were really that.

364
00:17:06.779 --> 00:17:10.079
I think the Daleks were bizarre and otherworldly and fascinated

365
00:17:10.079 --> 00:17:13.980
children, but they were never scary in the way that the cybermen

366
00:17:13.980 --> 00:17:14.579
are set up here.

367
00:17:14.640 --> 00:17:16.859
So the sidemen lurk in shadows.

368
00:17:16.920 --> 00:17:19.559
Um, you get kind of, you know, characters doing things.

369
00:17:19.619 --> 00:17:22.200
You'll see the cyber shadows sort of fall in the background.

370
00:17:22.259 --> 00:17:26.099
There's jump scares, people turn around and the sidemen are there

371
00:17:26.099 --> 00:17:28.380
behind them in full close-up.

372
00:17:28.440 --> 00:17:31.980
And this story has identified that that is a successful model for

373
00:17:31.980 --> 00:17:33.059
the series going forward.

374
00:17:33.119 --> 00:17:36.900
So throughout the rest of the trout era, and the early Pertwi era

375
00:17:36.900 --> 00:17:41.039
leading up to that 1973 article, you have Doctor Who turning into

376
00:17:41.039 --> 00:17:44.160
a program that frightens rather than thrills children.

377
00:17:44.220 --> 00:17:45.660
I think that's a great thing.

378
00:17:45.720 --> 00:17:48.960
Like, I do think that that's good, and maybe that's the big legacy

379
00:17:48.960 --> 00:17:52.980
here, but I do think that, in a way, that the base under siege is

380
00:17:52.980 --> 00:17:54.420
a bit of a retrograde stamp.

381
00:17:54.599 --> 00:17:57.240
I, I, going with the horror thing.

382
00:17:57.299 --> 00:18:01.079
I think the reason it works so well is because we're getting a bit

383
00:18:01.079 --> 00:18:02.339
more kitchen sink.

384
00:18:02.339 --> 00:18:05.279
Because, you know, normally, certainly catch something.

385
00:18:05.339 --> 00:18:08.940
But, you know, normally like the horror in Doctor Who has been

386
00:18:08.940 --> 00:18:11.880
like just one more weird thing. in the heart in the area.

387
00:18:11.940 --> 00:18:15.180
But here we get so many mentions of people having cups of coffee

388
00:18:15.180 --> 00:18:18.779
in and being plot specific cups of coffee.

389
00:18:18.839 --> 00:18:20.819
You know, Poly's made some coffee.

390
00:18:20.880 --> 00:18:22.740
Oh, the sugar is what's killing everyone.

391
00:18:22.799 --> 00:18:24.299
Here's a tray of coffee.

392
00:18:24.359 --> 00:18:26.880
Let's fill the hole in the wall with the coffee tray.

393
00:18:26.940 --> 00:18:31.440
Like it's such kitchen sink stuff that kind of grounds you into

394
00:18:31.440 --> 00:18:34.619
your reality that makes you go, oh, we're always having coffee at

395
00:18:34.619 --> 00:18:34.799
home.

396
00:18:34.859 --> 00:18:36.599
What if there was a Superman?

397
00:18:36.660 --> 00:18:38.279
the Daleks on the planet desperate.

398
00:18:38.339 --> 00:18:40.619
This isn't completely removed from our experience.

399
00:18:40.680 --> 00:18:44.099
This paves the way for things like, yes, in the underground

400
00:18:44.099 --> 00:18:45.839
autumns on the high street.

401
00:18:45.900 --> 00:18:49.440
I mean, part of the thing too, part of their problem too, is that

402
00:18:49.440 --> 00:18:52.920
I think one of the ways that Doctor Who goes wrong, that starts

403
00:18:52.920 --> 00:18:57.240
here, is that it becomes about things that happen to men at work.

404
00:18:57.299 --> 00:19:02.279
And that's like a, that's a big thing even in things that aren't

405
00:19:02.279 --> 00:19:03.420
bases under siege.

406
00:19:03.480 --> 00:19:07.380
Basically all of season 7 is here's what happens to men at work.

407
00:19:07.440 --> 00:19:11.460
And you might have our woman, but you don't hear, you've got just

408
00:19:11.460 --> 00:19:12.180
Polly.

409
00:19:12.240 --> 00:19:13.500
She the only woman, you know.

410
00:19:13.559 --> 00:19:16.680
She's got a lot more agency than a lot of, yeah, she's great.

411
00:19:16.680 --> 00:19:17.160
Later women.

412
00:19:17.220 --> 00:19:17.880
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

413
00:19:17.940 --> 00:19:18.720
She's creating this.

414
00:19:18.779 --> 00:19:20.339
I mean, obviously she gets to scream.

415
00:19:20.400 --> 00:19:25.799
A number of times at shadows and then she actually gets to come up

416
00:19:25.799 --> 00:19:27.059
with a solution to get rid of.

417
00:19:27.059 --> 00:19:29.400
And she gets snapped and knocked out.

418
00:19:29.460 --> 00:19:30.180
That's quite...

419
00:19:30.180 --> 00:19:32.640
Yeah, this rule for a female character.

420
00:19:32.700 --> 00:19:33.839
And she's working with the doctor.

421
00:19:33.900 --> 00:19:35.700
You know, Jamie's knocked out over there.

422
00:19:35.819 --> 00:19:38.819
Ben's wherever Ben is, right?

423
00:19:38.880 --> 00:19:42.900
He's just one of the people in the base and she's sort of front

424
00:19:42.900 --> 00:19:45.059
and centre with Patrick for quite a lot of it.

425
00:19:45.119 --> 00:19:47.759
I love that moment where they go, Ben, we're going to sit you at

426
00:19:47.759 --> 00:19:49.859
this desk here because we've run out of things for you to do.

427
00:19:49.920 --> 00:19:51.059
So you're going to pretend to work.

428
00:19:52.200 --> 00:19:56.519
I think they went well too many times with the base under siege.

429
00:19:56.579 --> 00:19:58.259
That's absolutely a thing.

430
00:19:58.319 --> 00:20:00.660
Yeah, but I think, you know, like even as later, sort of hand of

431
00:20:00.660 --> 00:20:01.079
fear.

432
00:20:01.140 --> 00:20:03.779
Like it's just men in their workplaces.

433
00:20:03.839 --> 00:20:06.420
And sometimes wearing jumpsuits.

434
00:20:06.480 --> 00:20:12.059
And so even when the doctor comes back in 2005, he says, I don't

435
00:20:12.059 --> 00:20:12.900
do domestic.

436
00:20:12.960 --> 00:20:17.099
And the new series remedies that in all sorts of ways.

437
00:20:17.160 --> 00:20:18.900
But it might have been better.

438
00:20:18.960 --> 00:20:22.619
You know, per his example of a yeti on the loo and Tooting Beck

439
00:20:22.619 --> 00:20:25.559
assumes that they're in your home.

440
00:20:25.619 --> 00:20:32.099
And so it is a bit removed by being a male workplace on the moon

441
00:20:32.099 --> 00:20:35.400
you know, so it's not, you're right, there is kitchen sink stuff

442
00:20:35.400 --> 00:20:40.079
there and there is identifiable stuff, but it is from a very

443
00:20:40.079 --> 00:20:42.180
restricted part of the world, I think.

444
00:20:42.240 --> 00:20:44.039
And that's just the way it is.

445
00:20:44.099 --> 00:20:46.799
You know, that's that's the times, that's the environment.

446
00:20:46.859 --> 00:20:48.240
And that's the reflection of that.

447
00:20:48.299 --> 00:20:52.440
And I do agree with you about this formula is restrictive in terms

448
00:20:52.440 --> 00:20:54.839
of the inventiveness of the show and that sort of thing.

449
00:20:54.900 --> 00:20:56.640
But it is what it is moving forward.

450
00:20:56.700 --> 00:20:59.880
And I think that, you know, they have no choice.

451
00:20:59.940 --> 00:21:02.519
If you're going to do a base under siege story, then you can't

452
00:21:02.519 --> 00:21:03.480
just sit in the same place.

453
00:21:03.539 --> 00:21:06.359
So what you do is you set it in a fictional establishment where

454
00:21:06.359 --> 00:21:09.059
you have people around you doing different tasks and, you know, a

455
00:21:09.059 --> 00:21:09.839
threat from the outside.

456
00:21:09.900 --> 00:21:12.240
And so by its nature, it is what it is.

457
00:21:12.299 --> 00:21:16.980
I think they do go to the well too many times, but I also think

458
00:21:16.980 --> 00:21:21.240
that when they do it right, this is the absolute acme of Doctor

459
00:21:21.240 --> 00:21:21.960
Who going for.

460
00:21:22.079 --> 00:21:24.779
You know, one thing I loved about this that I think they kind of

461
00:21:24.779 --> 00:21:29.339
missed out on as they went along was that the miniatures matched

462
00:21:29.339 --> 00:21:30.599
the reality.

463
00:21:30.660 --> 00:21:35.099
Like the gravitron look the same in miniature as it does in the

464
00:21:35.099 --> 00:21:36.299
set, like that giant thing.

465
00:21:36.359 --> 00:21:40.259
It's not 100% there, but they definitely, they've made an effort.

466
00:21:40.319 --> 00:21:43.319
Whereas, like, that's just doing it now, it'll be like...

467
00:21:43.380 --> 00:21:46.019
Oh, that thing over there and they'll just point at nothing and

468
00:21:46.019 --> 00:21:46.980
then there'll be a miniature.

469
00:21:47.039 --> 00:21:51.359
But it's a level of competence that these springs that we've had a

470
00:21:51.359 --> 00:21:55.079
variability before and this is competent in terms of, you know, the

471
00:21:55.079 --> 00:21:58.440
set in general. doors, et cetera.

472
00:21:58.500 --> 00:22:01.380
And the things they put on their heads to go in the graviton and

473
00:22:01.380 --> 00:22:04.200
what are those breathing apparatus that they're wearing, you

474
00:22:04.200 --> 00:22:04.380
know?

475
00:22:04.380 --> 00:22:06.359
That looks like a coke bottle. love that.

476
00:22:06.420 --> 00:22:07.440
Oh no, I love it.

477
00:22:07.500 --> 00:22:09.480
Like, but it's a fish bowl helmet.

478
00:22:09.539 --> 00:22:11.700
I love the emergency oxygen.

479
00:22:11.759 --> 00:22:13.019
I'm like, you never see that.

480
00:22:13.079 --> 00:22:14.640
Like whenever anything is in space.

481
00:22:14.700 --> 00:22:16.859
There's never emergency oxygen.

482
00:22:16.920 --> 00:22:19.319
I also love the moment where they have to use the emergency

483
00:22:19.319 --> 00:22:19.859
oxygen.

484
00:22:19.920 --> 00:22:21.420
Polly goes, well, why didn't you do this before?

485
00:22:21.480 --> 00:22:22.680
And they said, well, it would have wasted it.

486
00:22:22.740 --> 00:22:23.460
She goes, oh, okay.

487
00:22:26.579 --> 00:22:30.299
But you also have got special effects like with the cybermen

488
00:22:30.299 --> 00:22:34.200
zapping from their fingers. and the gravitron beam. and that laser

489
00:22:34.200 --> 00:22:36.359
that they fire, which is Doctor Who's 1st optical effect.

490
00:22:36.420 --> 00:22:36.900
Yeah.

491
00:22:36.900 --> 00:22:37.380
Oh, is it?

492
00:22:37.440 --> 00:22:37.619
Okay.

493
00:22:37.680 --> 00:22:38.339
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

494
00:22:38.400 --> 00:22:39.660
And it's acceptable.

495
00:22:39.720 --> 00:22:42.240
Yeah. 12 months ago may not have been acceptable.

496
00:22:42.299 --> 00:22:44.880
Well, no, it wouldn't go under John Wiles.

497
00:22:44.940 --> 00:22:47.400
This would have been rope years all hell would have had some way

498
00:22:47.400 --> 00:22:50.220
out ideas, which would have been very entertaining, enjoyable in

499
00:22:50.220 --> 00:22:52.799
their own way. it probably would have been a failed production.

500
00:22:52.859 --> 00:22:55.380
Also, this is so far from a failed production.

501
00:22:55.440 --> 00:22:58.319
William Hartnell refused to wear a spacesuit.

502
00:22:58.440 --> 00:23:01.920
Ah, which is why in the web planet.

503
00:23:01.980 --> 00:23:04.259
They've got those weird anorex that blow air on your face.

504
00:23:04.319 --> 00:23:07.440
Because they need to be wearing wine. 2 conventions.

505
00:23:08.700 --> 00:23:12.180
They need to be wearing white for that special effect shot to work

506
00:23:12.180 --> 00:23:12.839
don't they?

507
00:23:12.900 --> 00:23:14.400
So that's why they're wearing those.

508
00:23:14.460 --> 00:23:16.559
But no, like he refused to have a handle murder.

509
00:23:16.619 --> 00:23:19.859
And so when Patrick Charlton's gone, yeah, I'll put in a spacesuit

510
00:23:19.859 --> 00:23:20.880
they're like, oh, thank God.

511
00:23:20.940 --> 00:23:22.440
Can you go to the moon?

512
00:23:22.500 --> 00:23:23.220
Oh my god.

513
00:23:23.279 --> 00:23:27.779
So I think the moon is obviously a genius idea at this and sort of

514
00:23:27.779 --> 00:23:32.339
inevitable and it is better than the South Pole as a...

515
00:23:32.400 --> 00:23:35.759
But, you know, it is really just a couple of years before people

516
00:23:35.759 --> 00:23:37.019
are actually there.

517
00:23:37.079 --> 00:23:38.519
Well, yeah, they were doing that.

518
00:23:38.519 --> 00:23:39.480
Rocket testing.

519
00:23:39.599 --> 00:23:43.019
And I'm sure that was the intention for the 10th planet was to be

520
00:23:43.019 --> 00:23:47.160
somewhere alien and they ran up against the lead actor who went

521
00:23:47.160 --> 00:23:48.299
not putting on a helmet.

522
00:23:48.359 --> 00:23:51.960
But this might be the production they wanted to do with the 10th

523
00:23:51.960 --> 00:23:54.240
planet, but they'd lost their actor halfway through.

524
00:23:54.299 --> 00:23:57.420
They were told you have to have snow instead of out of space.

525
00:23:57.480 --> 00:24:01.799
But I still think the 10th planet in terms of its sets, like the

526
00:24:01.799 --> 00:24:06.539
base and that looks cramped, it looks cheap at times in various

527
00:24:06.539 --> 00:24:06.839
things.

528
00:24:06.900 --> 00:24:08.099
This doesn't, you know?

529
00:24:08.160 --> 00:24:11.880
And so keep going back, there's a competence here. that that

530
00:24:11.880 --> 00:24:12.359
didn't have.

531
00:24:12.420 --> 00:24:15.599
And the cybermen don't look like they're held together by sticky

532
00:24:15.599 --> 00:24:15.900
tape.

533
00:24:18.960 --> 00:24:21.779
Doctor Who's production always goes forward and fits and starts.

534
00:24:21.900 --> 00:24:24.119
It's never a definitive turning point.

535
00:24:24.180 --> 00:24:26.579
And so even though it's not a very good story.

536
00:24:26.640 --> 00:24:29.880
The production on the arc is actually quite sophisticated.

537
00:24:29.940 --> 00:24:32.819
But then you come back and you've got the celestial toy maker or

538
00:24:32.819 --> 00:24:35.279
the smugglers or indeed the 10th planet and they're not quite so

539
00:24:35.279 --> 00:24:36.480
sophisticated as productions.

540
00:24:36.539 --> 00:24:39.599
But then you'll get something like Power of the Daleks, which is

541
00:24:39.599 --> 00:24:41.579
an insanely sophisticated production.

542
00:24:41.640 --> 00:24:44.819
But then a retrograde step 2 stories later in the underwater

543
00:24:44.819 --> 00:24:45.240
menace.

544
00:24:45.299 --> 00:24:50.099
Here, I think, is the moment where they do away with those, yeah

545
00:24:50.099 --> 00:24:52.559
the up and down levels of, you know, what are we going to get this

546
00:24:52.559 --> 00:24:52.799
week?

547
00:24:52.859 --> 00:24:53.519
Will it work?

548
00:24:53.579 --> 00:24:57.720
And I think going forward, you have very few productions that

549
00:24:57.720 --> 00:25:01.500
could ever, as Todd said, be classified as failing productions

550
00:25:01.500 --> 00:25:04.740
where we start to get that again is the 1980s, which is where the

551
00:25:04.740 --> 00:25:06.119
machine starts to come off the series.

552
00:25:06.180 --> 00:25:09.839
I think the other thing with this one is like, I know the

553
00:25:09.839 --> 00:25:15.480
episode's missing, but the underwater ballet in underwater menace

554
00:25:15.480 --> 00:25:18.960
I think, has made them go, oh, we can't do the moon.

555
00:25:19.200 --> 00:25:23.700
I would like to see them jumping around on the moon to see

556
00:25:23.700 --> 00:25:24.539
actually what it's like.

557
00:25:24.599 --> 00:25:25.619
Do we see the strings?

558
00:25:25.740 --> 00:25:28.500
We absolutely would see the strings, but it would be fun.

559
00:25:28.559 --> 00:25:33.420
But, I mean, we see what we do see is the scene in episode 4 where

560
00:25:33.420 --> 00:25:34.740
the Cyberman...

561
00:25:34.799 --> 00:25:37.740
Yeah, or blasted into space. and that looks good.

562
00:25:37.799 --> 00:25:39.000
It looks amazing.

563
00:25:39.059 --> 00:25:42.299
And the sound, the other thing, like all of this music is stock

564
00:25:42.299 --> 00:25:42.779
isn't it?

565
00:25:42.839 --> 00:25:44.640
But it's really good.

566
00:25:44.700 --> 00:25:46.980
Like, I think it's got really memorable music.

567
00:25:47.039 --> 00:25:50.220
And the noise that they make when they're sort of jumping up and

568
00:25:50.220 --> 00:25:51.539
down in episode one.

569
00:25:53.279 --> 00:25:56.279
Yeah, but the cybermen make that noise at the end as well when

570
00:25:56.279 --> 00:25:57.299
they're going into space.

571
00:25:57.359 --> 00:25:58.440
It's really fun.

572
00:25:58.500 --> 00:25:59.220
That's really fun.

573
00:25:59.279 --> 00:26:04.619
And I think that the spacesuits are so kind of hipster. because

574
00:26:04.619 --> 00:26:07.859
they're from the future because it's 2070 or whatever.

575
00:26:07.920 --> 00:26:10.140
So there's spacesuits from 100 years time.

576
00:26:10.200 --> 00:26:13.380
They go out of their way to make them look different from the

577
00:26:13.380 --> 00:26:16.559
spacesuits of the present day, which is not what happens in, you

578
00:26:16.559 --> 00:26:19.500
know, say the tenant era where you've got that orange spacesuit

579
00:26:19.500 --> 00:26:22.200
that just looks like a spacesuit from a science fiction thing.

580
00:26:22.259 --> 00:26:24.180
These are futury spacesuits.

581
00:26:24.480 --> 00:26:25.200
And they're fabulous.

582
00:26:25.259 --> 00:26:27.660
And the fact that they were wearing sunglasses in them and stuff

583
00:26:27.660 --> 00:26:29.700
it's just...

584
00:26:29.759 --> 00:26:34.019
I expected to hear someone say in my eyes, the goggles.

585
00:26:35.039 --> 00:26:37.740
Don't look into the sun, the better one.

586
00:26:37.859 --> 00:26:40.799
Now, look, they figured out what they can do with their resources

587
00:26:40.799 --> 00:26:42.119
to work on screen.

588
00:26:42.180 --> 00:26:46.259
And so it's only 12 months ago in a very good production, Dalek's

589
00:26:46.259 --> 00:26:48.539
masterplan, where you have someone being ejected into space

590
00:26:48.539 --> 00:26:51.000
realised as someone jumping up and down on a trampoline.

591
00:26:51.059 --> 00:26:54.660
Don't really know how that looked, but I suspect not very good.

592
00:26:54.720 --> 00:26:59.519
Whereas here, you've not only got those scenes on strings, on film

593
00:26:59.519 --> 00:27:03.539
at Ealing, but you've also got, they're leaning into, as we talked

594
00:27:03.539 --> 00:27:06.720
about for the terror of it, with that slow motion chase in episode

595
00:27:06.720 --> 00:27:10.259
3, with the sidemen following the crewmen back and just sort of

596
00:27:10.259 --> 00:27:13.019
this, you know, they're running as fast as they can in that low

597
00:27:13.019 --> 00:27:15.960
gravity environment and the sidebound are just stalking behind

598
00:27:15.960 --> 00:27:16.200
them.

599
00:27:16.259 --> 00:27:19.799
I have no doubt that that would have been a really great scene.

600
00:27:20.039 --> 00:27:22.440
How many cybermen are there?

601
00:27:22.500 --> 00:27:22.980
Do we know?

602
00:27:23.039 --> 00:27:23.940
They're 11.

603
00:27:24.119 --> 00:27:25.079
Are they?

604
00:27:25.079 --> 00:27:26.819
outside or is they?

605
00:27:26.880 --> 00:27:28.380
In total.

606
00:27:28.440 --> 00:27:29.579
Is there 2 in the base?

607
00:27:29.640 --> 00:27:31.799
There's 11 suits, which they use.

608
00:27:31.859 --> 00:27:32.339
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

609
00:27:32.400 --> 00:27:32.940
That's what I meant.

610
00:27:33.000 --> 00:27:33.539
Yeah, yeah.

611
00:27:33.599 --> 00:27:37.019
They made 11 side men, which is unheard of, I think.

612
00:27:37.079 --> 00:27:40.019
Yeah, even in Dalekin Invasion of Earth, which we talked about

613
00:27:40.019 --> 00:27:44.579
last week, there's still cardboard daleks in Sloane Square.

614
00:27:44.640 --> 00:27:49.380
Like even later on, like you only get like 3 or 4 of a monster, you

615
00:27:49.380 --> 00:27:51.299
know, you don't even get that many jedun, do you?

616
00:27:51.359 --> 00:27:54.299
You'd never have a...

617
00:27:54.359 --> 00:27:58.019
You just have one hero Jadoon and all the rest of them are wearing

618
00:27:58.019 --> 00:27:58.619
helmets.

619
00:28:04.980 --> 00:28:09.359
Last week, we talked about how the Daleks really became just

620
00:28:09.359 --> 00:28:12.599
robots in the Dalek invasion of Earth, as opposed to what they

621
00:28:12.599 --> 00:28:12.960
were before.

622
00:28:13.019 --> 00:28:16.799
Watching this, I was kind of going, well, they really are just

623
00:28:16.799 --> 00:28:19.619
robots compared to what they once were performed.

624
00:28:19.680 --> 00:28:22.200
Like, you know, in the 10th planet, they're individuals.

625
00:28:22.259 --> 00:28:25.200
I mean, I know they're not necessarily...

626
00:28:25.259 --> 00:28:28.619
And in fact, in the novelisation of this story, they still have

627
00:28:28.619 --> 00:28:29.640
their names, yeah.

628
00:28:29.700 --> 00:28:31.500
But on screen, they don't.

629
00:28:31.559 --> 00:28:35.700
By taking away that face and just making the same face and the

630
00:28:35.700 --> 00:28:39.839
funny voice, they really do, I think, become I found it difficult

631
00:28:39.839 --> 00:28:41.279
to listen to all the dialogue.

632
00:28:41.339 --> 00:28:43.259
I couldn't get all the dialogue out of the side.

633
00:28:43.319 --> 00:28:46.200
So they don't speak for the 1st 2 episodes for a start.

634
00:28:46.200 --> 00:28:48.779
And they say things like clever, clever, clever.

635
00:28:48.839 --> 00:28:51.059
Yeah, yeah, only stupid earth brains.

636
00:28:51.119 --> 00:28:52.920
Hey I'm right here.

637
00:28:53.220 --> 00:28:56.940
I know that sounds like they've got emotions, but I think what

638
00:28:56.940 --> 00:28:58.799
their AI has told them.

639
00:28:58.859 --> 00:29:00.779
This is how you upset humans.

640
00:29:00.779 --> 00:29:03.299
Yes, with mockery and sarcasm.

641
00:29:03.359 --> 00:29:06.359
It's a lesson that the cyber leader in earth shock took very

642
00:29:06.359 --> 00:29:06.839
seriously.

643
00:29:06.900 --> 00:29:07.440
Yeah.

644
00:29:07.500 --> 00:29:09.240
So it's an AR.

645
00:29:09.660 --> 00:29:14.940
So the other thing too is that they don't seem to be motivated by

646
00:29:14.940 --> 00:29:15.240
anything.

647
00:29:15.299 --> 00:29:19.559
And the thing that made the 10th planet Cybermen scary or one of

648
00:29:19.559 --> 00:29:22.799
the many things that made them scary is that they thought they

649
00:29:22.799 --> 00:29:23.400
were helping.

650
00:29:23.460 --> 00:29:27.539
So they were coming and they were going to convert us because

651
00:29:27.539 --> 00:29:31.380
their planet was inevitably kind of draining our planet's energy

652
00:29:31.380 --> 00:29:31.980
or whatever.

653
00:29:32.039 --> 00:29:35.700
And so they were going to help us by converting us. that was kind

654
00:29:35.700 --> 00:29:36.599
of terrifying.

655
00:29:36.660 --> 00:29:42.119
And you can't imagine anything in this story comparing to the

656
00:29:42.119 --> 00:29:47.579
conversation that the Cyberman has with Polly, about ethics, you

657
00:29:47.579 --> 00:29:50.759
know, about all the people on earth that are dying now that you

658
00:29:50.759 --> 00:29:54.539
don't care about, like at the Simon wins that conversation.

659
00:29:54.599 --> 00:29:58.680
Here, they really are just delivering functional dialogue.

660
00:29:58.740 --> 00:30:01.680
Well, that's setting side Menopus characters in here, and I think

661
00:30:01.680 --> 00:30:04.259
they are very good here with the best will in the world.

662
00:30:04.319 --> 00:30:05.039
They're not characters.

663
00:30:05.099 --> 00:30:06.660
No, they're just a remorseless army.

664
00:30:06.720 --> 00:30:10.440
But that's the other thing that I think is the problem, that

665
00:30:10.440 --> 00:30:14.519
everything that's really interesting about the Cyberman goes away

666
00:30:14.519 --> 00:30:16.380
here.

667
00:30:16.380 --> 00:30:21.480
And that stays, I think, for the rest of the run, maybe until the

668
00:30:21.480 --> 00:30:23.339
80s or maybe not even that.

669
00:30:23.400 --> 00:30:27.299
Maybe this actually kills off the cybermen as an interesting

670
00:30:27.299 --> 00:30:28.619
atmosphere.

671
00:30:28.680 --> 00:30:30.480
I think again, we were talking about fits and starts.

672
00:30:30.539 --> 00:30:33.599
It's not a key turning point here.

673
00:30:33.660 --> 00:30:36.180
Yes, this does that, but I think Tomb of the Cyberman next

674
00:30:36.180 --> 00:30:39.599
restores some of what...

675
00:30:39.660 --> 00:30:40.019
Yeah.

676
00:30:40.079 --> 00:30:43.619
And then it goes back again to, you know, the wheeling space

677
00:30:43.619 --> 00:30:44.640
they're just heavies in space.

678
00:30:44.700 --> 00:30:49.680
I kind of, I like the, um, body horror that they introduce in this

679
00:30:49.680 --> 00:30:53.819
like the tendrils moving along the arms, the, yeah, becoming

680
00:30:53.819 --> 00:30:58.259
controlled by the cybermen, which, you know, it's not explicit in

681
00:30:58.259 --> 00:31:01.920
the script, but I feel like if you're a Doctor Who fan who's

682
00:31:01.920 --> 00:31:04.559
watched the 10th planet. you know that they want to convert

683
00:31:04.559 --> 00:31:06.299
humans.

684
00:31:06.359 --> 00:31:08.460
And this is like, it's almost subtext.

685
00:31:08.519 --> 00:31:13.019
It's like, well, they've turned these people into automatons using

686
00:31:13.019 --> 00:31:13.680
sugar.

687
00:31:13.740 --> 00:31:18.119
Haven't they missed a trick by not physically part cybernetizing

688
00:31:18.119 --> 00:31:18.359
them?

689
00:31:18.420 --> 00:31:21.180
Oh, even if it had that reveal of not the spider veins, but

690
00:31:21.180 --> 00:31:23.460
actually them throwing off the cloak and they've got like, you

691
00:31:23.460 --> 00:31:28.200
know, uh, so even if those helmets, Stratton and Bates. those

692
00:31:28.200 --> 00:31:30.660
little helmet things that have on with the eye and the fore, the

693
00:31:30.660 --> 00:31:33.539
little dabros, I think they've got, if that had the handles on it

694
00:31:33.539 --> 00:31:37.319
or something and you went, oh, no, they're becoming, but it's

695
00:31:37.319 --> 00:31:40.920
still, I found that still an effective, terrifying plot point.

696
00:31:40.980 --> 00:31:43.319
I agree with you, but I don't think they could have realised that

697
00:31:43.319 --> 00:31:46.859
half cyber ties thing in a way that would be acceptable, which is

698
00:31:46.859 --> 00:31:49.319
why I think doing the vein thing works so much better.

699
00:31:49.920 --> 00:31:52.259
They can do, which works on screen.

700
00:31:52.259 --> 00:31:54.900
And the vain thing where they, what are they doing?

701
00:31:54.960 --> 00:31:56.279
They do stop motion or something.

702
00:31:56.339 --> 00:31:58.079
Yeah, it's like a close motion on the hand.

703
00:31:58.140 --> 00:31:58.980
It's effective.

704
00:31:59.039 --> 00:32:01.500
It's really good And their fingers are interesting because they're

705
00:32:01.500 --> 00:32:01.980
really pointy.

706
00:32:02.039 --> 00:32:04.740
Like I was thinking, oh, it's really pointy fingers. cricket

707
00:32:04.740 --> 00:32:05.519
gloves, you know?

708
00:32:05.579 --> 00:32:06.839
I miss too, yeah.

709
00:32:07.500 --> 00:32:08.640
Are these the 3 fingered ones?

710
00:32:08.700 --> 00:32:11.220
I can't remember.

711
00:32:11.279 --> 00:32:15.180
Because, yeah, I think I think they've now got four.

712
00:32:15.839 --> 00:32:17.460
I don't know.

713
00:32:17.519 --> 00:32:18.839
Look up TARDIS Wiki.

714
00:32:18.900 --> 00:32:20.579
But I just remember seeing the...

715
00:32:20.579 --> 00:32:23.880
Because I watched the cartoon version and like, which is a really

716
00:32:23.880 --> 00:32:25.079
effective cartoon.

717
00:32:25.380 --> 00:32:25.980
It's pretty good.

718
00:32:26.039 --> 00:32:27.299
Really atmospheric.

719
00:32:27.359 --> 00:32:30.599
It's, you know, very limited animation, but it's, it's got an art

720
00:32:30.599 --> 00:32:33.299
style that's really interesting and it's kind of, but also it's

721
00:32:33.299 --> 00:32:34.079
got a fan eye.

722
00:32:34.140 --> 00:32:39.119
So when they reanimate the bit at the start of part three, which

723
00:32:39.119 --> 00:32:41.279
is the sideman getting off the bed, they even give the hospital

724
00:32:41.279 --> 00:32:42.660
bed, the same little wobble.

725
00:32:42.720 --> 00:32:45.420
Yeah, the Simon comes off the end of part two.

726
00:32:45.480 --> 00:32:46.920
I mean, they're very heavy.

727
00:32:46.980 --> 00:32:47.819
They're made of metal.

728
00:32:47.880 --> 00:32:49.380
That bed's not going to really stand by.

729
00:32:49.440 --> 00:32:51.539
I do find it interesting, though, that they've managed to

730
00:32:51.539 --> 00:32:55.200
infiltrate the base and then they need to do that to the humans

731
00:32:55.200 --> 00:32:56.039
rather than just to full.

732
00:32:56.279 --> 00:32:58.859
Well, we've got to. why don't we just have all of them just walk

733
00:32:58.859 --> 00:33:02.039
in and blast everybody and then get hold of the graviton, but I

734
00:33:02.039 --> 00:33:02.880
guess you have got no story.

735
00:33:02.940 --> 00:33:05.460
If you do that, you were talking about, you know, having a

736
00:33:05.460 --> 00:33:07.680
conversation and they have that conversation where they say, no

737
00:33:07.680 --> 00:33:08.339
we're not afraid.

738
00:33:08.400 --> 00:33:13.319
We just want to, what was it, eliminate things that are dangerous

739
00:33:13.319 --> 00:33:15.180
which I thought was a very interesting comment.

740
00:33:15.240 --> 00:33:17.400
Because that's the thing is why are they here?

741
00:33:17.460 --> 00:33:18.299
Right.

742
00:33:18.359 --> 00:33:21.599
And we have to rule out revenge as a reason because that's an

743
00:33:21.599 --> 00:33:22.019
emotion.

744
00:33:22.140 --> 00:33:25.500
And so it just becomes their eliminating something dangerous.

745
00:33:25.559 --> 00:33:30.299
In which case, would a version of this where it was the ice

746
00:33:30.299 --> 00:33:31.259
warriors work?

747
00:33:31.319 --> 00:33:32.519
Do you know what I mean?

748
00:33:32.579 --> 00:33:33.599
It just doesn't matter who that is.

749
00:33:33.660 --> 00:33:34.500
This is what you were saying earlier.

750
00:33:34.559 --> 00:33:37.019
The fact that they become, they're now robots rather than

751
00:33:37.019 --> 00:33:37.799
creatures.

752
00:33:37.859 --> 00:33:41.460
They occupy the same space as things like the yeti and the ice

753
00:33:41.460 --> 00:33:42.420
warriors going forward.

754
00:33:42.480 --> 00:33:45.960
So in any of those stories, if you take out the backstory to the

755
00:33:45.960 --> 00:33:49.079
creatures, what they actually do in the plot is completely

756
00:33:49.079 --> 00:33:49.980
interchangeable.

757
00:33:50.039 --> 00:33:54.000
It could be the cybermen in the underground in Webber fear.

758
00:33:54.059 --> 00:33:58.019
And in fact, we get that 5 stories late up there in the sewers in

759
00:33:58.019 --> 00:33:58.500
the invasion.

760
00:33:58.619 --> 00:34:03.180
But it's the moment where they play space adventure over the yeti

761
00:34:03.180 --> 00:34:05.819
and you think it really doesn't matter, does it?

762
00:34:05.880 --> 00:34:08.820
It doesn't matter which one of these 3 monsters we have this

763
00:34:08.820 --> 00:34:09.059
week.

764
00:34:09.119 --> 00:34:11.219
Oh, it's the music that we have here.

765
00:34:11.219 --> 00:34:12.719
That's replay.

766
00:34:12.780 --> 00:34:14.639
And they're going, what?

767
00:34:14.699 --> 00:34:16.980
Yes, no, when I watch the video and going, what?

768
00:34:17.039 --> 00:34:18.780
That is the cyberman music. cannot do this.

769
00:34:18.900 --> 00:34:19.980
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

770
00:34:20.039 --> 00:34:22.679
But I mean, it precisely is because it doesn't matter who they

771
00:34:22.679 --> 00:34:22.980
are.

772
00:34:23.039 --> 00:34:27.480
And that is, that's a problem because it makes Doctor Who so much

773
00:34:27.480 --> 00:34:30.659
more functional and so much less one wondrous so much less

774
00:34:30.659 --> 00:34:31.440
interesting.

775
00:34:31.500 --> 00:34:35.460
And, you know, next year we'll get, you know, the enemy of the

776
00:34:35.460 --> 00:34:41.400
world and that's not this and that's super strange and all sorts

777
00:34:41.400 --> 00:34:44.880
of ways, like hugely unpredictable and amazing.

778
00:34:44.940 --> 00:34:48.539
It's not quite what you would do in the heart and era, and it's

779
00:34:48.539 --> 00:34:49.860
not quite what you do in series 6.

780
00:34:49.920 --> 00:34:53.460
So what I'm hearing you saying is that when Doctor Who does a

781
00:34:53.460 --> 00:34:56.880
formula, it's good and when it reacts against the formula, it's

782
00:34:56.880 --> 00:34:57.000
good.

783
00:34:57.059 --> 00:35:00.659
Well, no, what I what I'm saying is that I think that I do think

784
00:35:00.659 --> 00:35:04.380
that the formula is overwhelmingly not good.

785
00:35:04.440 --> 00:35:04.800
Yeah.

786
00:35:04.860 --> 00:35:06.960
See, I would disagree.

787
00:35:07.019 --> 00:35:10.320
I think it's by giving it a kind of repetition.

788
00:35:10.380 --> 00:35:13.559
A, you get kids who love to see the same thing every week.

789
00:35:13.619 --> 00:35:13.980
Sure.

790
00:35:13.980 --> 00:35:14.639
That's right.

791
00:35:14.699 --> 00:35:19.260
And can I just say, the sidemen become a force in the program now

792
00:35:19.260 --> 00:35:22.559
not because even though they've had all of their individual, all

793
00:35:22.559 --> 00:35:24.420
of the things that made them interesting, they're for the story

794
00:35:24.420 --> 00:35:24.960
stripped away.

795
00:35:25.019 --> 00:35:25.980
It's the repetition.

796
00:35:26.039 --> 00:35:28.500
They're there 4 times in the Troughton era.

797
00:35:28.559 --> 00:35:29.460
Kids remember that.

798
00:35:29.519 --> 00:35:30.239
Sorry to go on.

799
00:35:30.300 --> 00:35:33.179
And yeah, but so you get the repetition, but also one thing that

800
00:35:33.179 --> 00:35:36.719
you have when you tell the same stories again and again and again

801
00:35:36.719 --> 00:35:39.840
is you can spend time on character development.

802
00:35:39.900 --> 00:35:43.800
You can spend time, you know, building up the people in the base

803
00:35:43.800 --> 00:35:46.920
because you go, well, how are we making this different to the last

804
00:35:46.920 --> 00:35:47.639
time we did this?

805
00:35:47.699 --> 00:35:51.840
And so you start to get nuanced and you get interesting things

806
00:35:51.840 --> 00:35:54.000
happening with the characters.

807
00:35:54.059 --> 00:35:56.820
And I don't know that the show would have survived as long as it

808
00:35:56.820 --> 00:36:03.300
has without that period of, let's do the same thing, every story

809
00:36:03.300 --> 00:36:07.079
and really work on making the people interesting.

810
00:36:07.139 --> 00:36:11.219
So, I mean, I guess the best example of that next year is going to

811
00:36:11.219 --> 00:36:13.619
be the ice warriors, isn't it?

812
00:36:13.739 --> 00:36:18.659
Where you've got the love triangle between Clint, Penley, Clint

813
00:36:18.659 --> 00:36:20.099
Penley, and the computer.

814
00:36:20.460 --> 00:36:22.440
And miscarriage.

815
00:36:22.500 --> 00:36:24.360
The computer says no.

816
00:36:24.420 --> 00:36:27.480
And store or whatever his name is.

817
00:36:27.539 --> 00:36:28.800
It's a polycule, really, right?

818
00:36:28.860 --> 00:36:30.059
I love triangle.

819
00:36:30.119 --> 00:36:33.719
But those characters are interesting, but it is still fairly

820
00:36:33.719 --> 00:36:34.139
basic.

821
00:36:34.199 --> 00:36:37.320
It's not sophisticated drama in any way.

822
00:36:37.380 --> 00:36:38.639
It's not that interesting.

823
00:36:38.699 --> 00:36:40.800
Yeah, the characters are always...

824
00:36:40.860 --> 00:36:41.940
I mean, it's good.

825
00:36:41.940 --> 00:36:45.239
And, you know, like, obviously, Miss Garrett is fantastic.

826
00:36:45.300 --> 00:36:48.719
Like and all of that sort of stuff going on in the base is pretty

827
00:36:48.719 --> 00:36:54.300
good, but it just like now, do you know what I mean?

828
00:36:54.360 --> 00:36:57.900
Like perhaps at the time, perhaps for the child audience, but now

829
00:36:57.900 --> 00:37:01.199
I just find them a little bit of a slog and not.

830
00:37:01.199 --> 00:37:02.400
Maybe you've watched it too many times.

831
00:37:02.519 --> 00:37:03.599
Maybe.

832
00:37:03.599 --> 00:37:06.059
But, you know, it's just the 1st time.

833
00:37:06.119 --> 00:37:08.099
Yeah, this is the 1st proper thing.

834
00:37:08.159 --> 00:37:10.559
Also, like, because I've watched the underwater menace before

835
00:37:10.559 --> 00:37:11.099
this.

836
00:37:11.159 --> 00:37:12.480
I was like, oh, wow.

837
00:37:12.539 --> 00:37:15.059
This is so much, it feels so much more streamlined.

838
00:37:15.119 --> 00:37:15.719
Yeah, yeah.

839
00:37:15.719 --> 00:37:18.960
Like, you've got a complete through line from episode to episode

840
00:37:18.960 --> 00:37:22.860
instead of like whatever was going on the previous...

841
00:37:22.860 --> 00:37:26.639
You've gone from fish people outfits, which are very sub, the 1st

842
00:37:26.639 --> 00:37:30.780
cybermen, to these, which look metallic and robotic, even if they

843
00:37:30.780 --> 00:37:31.380
are people.

844
00:37:31.500 --> 00:37:33.119
And they have shoelaces, and that's fine.

845
00:37:33.239 --> 00:37:35.760
And also their shoes going to stay on.

846
00:37:35.820 --> 00:37:37.139
They're streamlined.

847
00:37:37.199 --> 00:37:38.159
They look consistent.

848
00:37:38.219 --> 00:37:38.820
They look good.

849
00:37:38.880 --> 00:37:40.500
They're not held together by sticky tape.

850
00:37:40.559 --> 00:37:40.980
Yeah.

851
00:37:40.980 --> 00:37:42.840
You know, not that I'm harping back on that.

852
00:37:42.900 --> 00:37:45.300
But, and I love the original side of them.

853
00:37:45.300 --> 00:37:47.940
But, you know, they're streamlined, the chess plates, you know

854
00:37:47.940 --> 00:37:51.480
they're much smaller and compact, and the helmet and the voice

855
00:37:51.480 --> 00:37:57.420
just, and the way the mouth works, it just all adds to the, the

856
00:37:57.420 --> 00:38:01.920
horror of when they get the acetone spray. and they start foaming

857
00:38:01.920 --> 00:38:02.219
up.

858
00:38:02.280 --> 00:38:07.079
Like it is a gruesome, terrifying moment.

859
00:38:07.139 --> 00:38:09.239
It's actually pretty brutal isn't it?

860
00:38:09.300 --> 00:38:09.780
Yeah.

861
00:38:09.840 --> 00:38:13.500
One of the things that struck me is that in that whole thing, the

862
00:38:13.500 --> 00:38:17.159
audience has to have a plastic spray bottle explained to them.

863
00:38:17.219 --> 00:38:20.699
So it must be a reasonably recent thing. plastic was very new.

864
00:38:20.760 --> 00:38:23.519
Like, it's why the fish gills in the previous story were plastic

865
00:38:23.519 --> 00:38:25.380
because it plastic was not a thing.

866
00:38:25.440 --> 00:38:30.000
Like, even in the 70s with, you know, the autons inhabiting

867
00:38:30.000 --> 00:38:30.360
plastic.

868
00:38:30.420 --> 00:38:34.260
That's when plastic started to become more of a thing, it was more

869
00:38:34.260 --> 00:38:37.559
mass produced, but, Yeah, it's a very new and exciting.

870
00:38:37.619 --> 00:38:40.619
I mean, technically, the acetone would have eaten through the

871
00:38:40.619 --> 00:38:41.760
plastic, but yeah, that's right.

872
00:38:41.820 --> 00:38:42.539
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

873
00:38:42.599 --> 00:38:44.760
Yeah, no one really thought of that, but yes.

874
00:38:44.820 --> 00:38:48.539
Todd said that he likes the version of the sidemen and the 10th

875
00:38:48.539 --> 00:38:48.840
player.

876
00:38:48.900 --> 00:38:52.619
So do I. I think I prefer them to this version, but from a body

877
00:38:52.619 --> 00:38:56.519
horror point of view, yeah, the human hand, the uncanny valleyness

878
00:38:56.519 --> 00:38:58.199
and the grotesqueness of what they are.

879
00:38:58.260 --> 00:39:02.099
But there's so many things about this version of the seidemen that

880
00:39:02.099 --> 00:39:02.820
I like as well.

881
00:39:02.880 --> 00:39:07.139
So this story develops the fact that they are an army of monsters

882
00:39:07.139 --> 00:39:10.139
on the march, which you don't get previously.

883
00:39:10.199 --> 00:39:13.440
Even the Daleks refer to each other as individuals.

884
00:39:13.500 --> 00:39:16.079
They speak to each other as individuals, whereas sidemen here

885
00:39:16.079 --> 00:39:19.679
don't speak to each other in any way except to, you know, how's

886
00:39:19.679 --> 00:39:20.219
our plan going?

887
00:39:20.460 --> 00:39:24.119
And so they're kind of an army and they're used as cannon fodder

888
00:39:24.119 --> 00:39:24.780
by the good guys.

889
00:39:24.840 --> 00:39:26.159
It develops that idea of them.

890
00:39:26.219 --> 00:39:30.300
But they've also become, in terms of the series, a mythic force.

891
00:39:30.360 --> 00:39:34.199
And so you get Hobson talking about the sidemen, it's these kind

892
00:39:34.199 --> 00:39:35.760
of ancient things, mythology.

893
00:39:35.820 --> 00:39:37.139
Children know about them.

894
00:39:37.199 --> 00:39:38.699
Yeah, from 1986.

895
00:39:38.880 --> 00:39:42.480
They also resemble the Phantom Piper, which is kind of something

896
00:39:42.480 --> 00:39:43.739
from Jamie's clans.

897
00:39:43.739 --> 00:39:45.719
It's so good.

898
00:39:45.719 --> 00:39:46.440
That's right.

899
00:39:46.500 --> 00:39:48.599
And when you talk about it, you then get the close-up of the

900
00:39:48.599 --> 00:39:52.800
sidemen looking like this grotesque kind of creature from, you

901
00:39:52.800 --> 00:39:53.699
know, urban legend.

902
00:39:53.820 --> 00:39:57.780
It's that brilliant moment where Trouton doesn't dismiss it as

903
00:39:57.780 --> 00:39:58.559
superstition.

904
00:39:58.619 --> 00:40:02.820
It says it's still important because Jamie believes it, which I

905
00:40:02.820 --> 00:40:04.079
think is really, really good.

906
00:40:04.139 --> 00:40:07.440
And you're right, it does add to that sort of mythic thing about

907
00:40:07.440 --> 00:40:09.480
them. they also keep their strength.

908
00:40:09.539 --> 00:40:11.159
They're frightening.

909
00:40:11.219 --> 00:40:13.679
Because when they pick people up.

910
00:40:13.800 --> 00:40:14.820
Oh, yeah, yeah.

911
00:40:14.820 --> 00:40:16.019
When they pick people up handling.

912
00:40:16.139 --> 00:40:17.460
It's just under one arm.

913
00:40:17.519 --> 00:40:18.960
Yes, it's under one arm.

914
00:40:19.019 --> 00:40:21.420
Like, and you just hear going, wow, they are that strong.

915
00:40:21.480 --> 00:40:24.960
Even the person in the bed looks, you know, quite big, not small.

916
00:40:25.019 --> 00:40:27.239
It's absolutely toe curling, I think.

917
00:40:27.360 --> 00:40:31.019
And so even though they've lost some of what made them distinctive

918
00:40:31.019 --> 00:40:33.599
and they've lost their elegance, which they had from the 10th

919
00:40:33.599 --> 00:40:34.019
planet.

920
00:40:34.079 --> 00:40:36.539
It's instructive the way that they were thought of now.

921
00:40:36.599 --> 00:40:39.539
Again, if you go back to the novelisation of the Sidemen and Jerry

922
00:40:39.539 --> 00:40:41.460
Davis, he described them like this.

923
00:40:41.519 --> 00:40:45.300
He said, like human monsters, down through all the ages of earth

924
00:40:45.300 --> 00:40:47.940
they became aware of the lack of love and feeling in their lives

925
00:40:47.940 --> 00:40:50.400
and substituted another goal, power.

926
00:40:50.460 --> 00:40:51.239
Wow.

927
00:40:52.199 --> 00:40:52.559
Yeah.

928
00:40:52.619 --> 00:40:56.699
And so that is a good template for a monster going forward.

929
00:40:56.760 --> 00:41:00.659
And the subtext of it as well, that kind of where we're going to

930
00:41:00.659 --> 00:41:02.579
pick up men and take them off and convert them.

931
00:41:02.639 --> 00:41:04.679
Like, obviously they're terrified of gay people.

932
00:41:07.980 --> 00:41:10.440
Simon, the ultimate gay.

933
00:41:10.559 --> 00:41:13.260
They want control and domination.

934
00:41:13.559 --> 00:41:18.360
I mean, they're wearing rubber suits. come on Just because they're

935
00:41:18.360 --> 00:41:20.099
sprayed silver doesn't mean they're not kinky.

936
00:41:29.159 --> 00:41:30.480
And it allows the doctor to change.

937
00:41:30.539 --> 00:41:34.260
It allows the doctor to now become the character who says there

938
00:41:34.260 --> 00:41:36.960
are some corners of the universe who bred the most terrible things

939
00:41:36.960 --> 00:41:40.559
things which must be fought, and which the novelisation ads, things

940
00:41:40.559 --> 00:41:42.300
which must be fought to the death.

941
00:41:43.079 --> 00:41:45.780
The way he delivers that is so good.

942
00:41:45.840 --> 00:41:48.119
I think. such a moment, isn't it?

943
00:41:48.179 --> 00:41:48.840
It's really good.

944
00:41:48.900 --> 00:41:50.880
And there's another moment, I think, too.

945
00:41:50.940 --> 00:41:56.159
And in our 1st episode of 500 year diary, we saw that in a way

946
00:41:56.159 --> 00:41:59.639
Trouton becomes the doctor because the Daleks recognise him.

947
00:41:59.699 --> 00:42:02.099
The cybermen recognise him.

948
00:42:02.159 --> 00:42:04.440
You're known to us and you to me.

949
00:42:04.500 --> 00:42:07.079
It's a really, really good exchange, I think.

950
00:42:07.139 --> 00:42:09.599
I think it's great that they do recognise him.

951
00:42:09.599 --> 00:42:13.800
And that's signposted because we talked last episode about the

952
00:42:13.800 --> 00:42:16.139
fact that the Daleks do not recognise the doctor in the Dalek

953
00:42:16.139 --> 00:42:18.960
invasion birth, which I thought was not...

954
00:42:19.019 --> 00:42:22.139
It was a mistake, but it was strange because from that point on

955
00:42:22.139 --> 00:42:22.920
they do.

956
00:42:22.920 --> 00:42:23.460
They do.

957
00:42:23.519 --> 00:42:27.360
So having that recognition was great.

958
00:42:27.360 --> 00:42:30.360
And also, Polly recognising the cyber, it's really, it's really

959
00:42:30.360 --> 00:42:33.179
interesting the way it shot because she barely sees them and then

960
00:42:33.179 --> 00:42:36.480
she sort of cries into the doctor's shoulder and says the side

961
00:42:36.480 --> 00:42:38.639
moment, it sort of muffled, like she just throws it into the

962
00:42:38.639 --> 00:42:39.059
dialogue.

963
00:42:39.119 --> 00:42:40.079
The button came out.

964
00:42:40.139 --> 00:42:41.340
You could miss it.

965
00:42:41.400 --> 00:42:44.579
Like, so then it's like, okay, we're trying to reinforce that.

966
00:42:44.639 --> 00:42:46.619
These are the cybermen, because they look different from 4 months

967
00:42:46.619 --> 00:42:49.320
ago and then you get a leap in the ratings.

968
00:42:49.380 --> 00:42:53.460
I think from 8.one to 8.9 suddenly this story compared to the last

969
00:42:53.460 --> 00:42:56.699
2 stories which fell back to 7s and 6s.

970
00:42:56.760 --> 00:42:57.599
It suddenly...

971
00:42:57.599 --> 00:42:58.440
It's solidified.

972
00:42:58.440 --> 00:43:00.539
It's solidified the audience and we're away.

973
00:43:00.599 --> 00:43:02.219
Can I ask a question?

974
00:43:02.340 --> 00:43:06.659
The other Cyberman in story, a new design.

975
00:43:06.719 --> 00:43:13.320
And the reason that I'm asking this is that last week we saw that

976
00:43:13.320 --> 00:43:16.079
there was a conversation about how the Daleks looked different

977
00:43:16.079 --> 00:43:19.800
from the 1st time that they appeared, there's no conversation

978
00:43:19.800 --> 00:43:20.880
about that here.

979
00:43:20.940 --> 00:43:23.760
No one...

980
00:43:23.760 --> 00:43:26.400
Polly immediately recognises them, even though they look very

981
00:43:26.400 --> 00:43:29.760
little like the side men she encountered on snowcapped bays.

982
00:43:29.820 --> 00:43:34.860
So is the idea that what the show has done is has said this was

983
00:43:34.860 --> 00:43:38.940
our bad initial design of the cybermen and the sidemen are going

984
00:43:38.940 --> 00:43:40.019
to look like this going forward.

985
00:43:40.139 --> 00:43:42.599
The sidemen have always looked like this viewer.

986
00:43:42.659 --> 00:43:43.619
Yes, that's right.

987
00:43:43.679 --> 00:43:45.539
Is that how we to understand it?

988
00:43:45.539 --> 00:43:50.159
Because think about what happens in the new series, when Russell

989
00:43:50.159 --> 00:43:53.880
brings the cybermen back, he brings them back and gives them a new

990
00:43:53.880 --> 00:43:58.440
origin so that they can look different and those cybermen are sort

991
00:43:58.440 --> 00:44:03.000
of generally used, then Moffat goes, no, actually, all of the

992
00:44:03.000 --> 00:44:07.199
cybermen that we saw on screen, all really existed, and you're

993
00:44:07.199 --> 00:44:08.519
kind of going to see them.

994
00:44:08.579 --> 00:44:10.559
And it's the same with the Daleks.

995
00:44:10.679 --> 00:44:13.679
When Russell brings the Daleks back, we only ever see the new

996
00:44:13.679 --> 00:44:16.139
brass Daleks that he creates.

997
00:44:16.199 --> 00:44:20.460
Moffatt goes, no, all of the daleks always look different and they

998
00:44:20.460 --> 00:44:22.079
that that was a real thing.

999
00:44:22.139 --> 00:44:27.539
And the classic series takes the approach that Russell takes

1000
00:44:27.539 --> 00:44:27.840
yeah?

1001
00:44:27.900 --> 00:44:31.800
We never go back and see a previous cyberman design.

1002
00:44:31.860 --> 00:44:35.159
And so I think the idea is that we're supposed to feel that this

1003
00:44:35.159 --> 00:44:38.639
is what the cybermen look like and no character ever remarks on

1004
00:44:38.639 --> 00:44:40.980
how they look different from how they did last time.

1005
00:44:41.039 --> 00:44:42.599
I think it's a good point.

1006
00:44:42.659 --> 00:44:45.780
But there is hesitation in her voice and I think she's trying to

1007
00:44:45.780 --> 00:44:48.900
convince herself, yes, it's a cyberman, like when she says, yes

1008
00:44:48.900 --> 00:44:51.360
the cyberman and then it's sort of taken on board.

1009
00:44:51.420 --> 00:44:53.820
So, I don't know, I guess it's a little too fan of me.

1010
00:44:53.880 --> 00:44:56.639
I'm quite happy to say, yeah, no, I was the old ones and they've

1011
00:44:56.639 --> 00:44:59.280
just updated and upgraded.

1012
00:44:59.340 --> 00:45:02.880
And Polly recognised them as, oh, yes, this assignment.

1013
00:45:02.940 --> 00:45:04.440
Oh, yes, it is the cyber.

1014
00:45:04.619 --> 00:45:05.519
And then we just accept it.

1015
00:45:05.639 --> 00:45:08.519
I think that point would stand if the sidemen always looked like

1016
00:45:08.519 --> 00:45:10.380
they do in the moon base going forwards.

1017
00:45:10.440 --> 00:45:15.239
But the fact that they've had this huge upgrade in their design in

1018
00:45:15.239 --> 00:45:18.900
the real world gives costume designers going forward, permission

1019
00:45:18.900 --> 00:45:22.139
to keep changing them and to make the, whereas fiddling with

1020
00:45:22.139 --> 00:45:22.320
them.

1021
00:45:22.320 --> 00:45:24.000
That's right, fiddling with them.

1022
00:45:24.000 --> 00:45:26.820
But that's not what happens to the Daleks.

1023
00:45:26.880 --> 00:45:27.960
The dark.

1024
00:45:28.079 --> 00:45:31.440
Right up until the very misconceived redesign that they're given

1025
00:45:31.440 --> 00:45:32.639
in victory of the Daleks.

1026
00:45:32.760 --> 00:45:35.760
And the other one that they're given in revolution of the Daleks

1027
00:45:35.760 --> 00:45:36.179
as well.

1028
00:45:36.239 --> 00:45:38.579
Also, misconceived, okay?

1029
00:45:38.579 --> 00:45:39.719
So, the squished, darling.

1030
00:45:39.780 --> 00:45:40.260
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1031
00:45:40.380 --> 00:45:43.739
They retain exactly the same silhouette, even though they're built

1032
00:45:43.739 --> 00:45:44.400
slightly.

1033
00:45:44.460 --> 00:45:45.000
Yeah.

1034
00:45:45.059 --> 00:45:45.420
Yeah.

1035
00:45:45.480 --> 00:45:48.960
So I think that that's one of the big differences between the

1036
00:45:48.960 --> 00:45:50.099
Daleks and the sidemen.

1037
00:45:50.159 --> 00:45:52.260
And one of the reasons I think the cybermen are always just kind

1038
00:45:52.260 --> 00:45:56.280
of, oh, it's the cybermen, rather than the dialect.

1039
00:45:56.760 --> 00:45:59.820
Compared to how you feel about the Daleks returning.

1040
00:45:59.880 --> 00:46:01.440
I like something.

1041
00:46:01.440 --> 00:46:05.460
I, for me, because, you know, in my other podcast, I'm always

1042
00:46:05.460 --> 00:46:08.280
trying to explain why things happen in Doctor Who.

1043
00:46:08.340 --> 00:46:08.639
Yeah.

1044
00:46:08.639 --> 00:46:10.380
For me, hiding to nothing.

1045
00:46:10.739 --> 00:46:17.880
Which is, so for me, it's the 10th planet Cybermen are equipped

1046
00:46:17.880 --> 00:46:19.980
for going to another Earth.

1047
00:46:20.039 --> 00:46:20.639
Yeah.

1048
00:46:20.639 --> 00:46:22.380
They don't need too much.

1049
00:46:22.440 --> 00:46:25.019
Like they've developed enough to work on the surface of their

1050
00:46:25.019 --> 00:46:28.500
planet without having to have too much oxygen and stuff and

1051
00:46:28.500 --> 00:46:29.400
they're fine in the cold.

1052
00:46:29.460 --> 00:46:31.800
These cybermen are going to the moon.

1053
00:46:31.860 --> 00:46:33.539
Yeah, so they have to be able to walk in.

1054
00:46:33.599 --> 00:46:35.699
Yeah, they have to, so they need a heavier boot.

1055
00:46:35.760 --> 00:46:39.599
They need a more a better filtration system on the chest.

1056
00:46:39.659 --> 00:46:41.820
They need a bit more protection because there's still organic

1057
00:46:41.820 --> 00:46:42.599
material inside.

1058
00:46:42.659 --> 00:46:47.579
So they need this more robust suit.

1059
00:46:47.639 --> 00:46:50.880
Yeah, so the universe reason for their design is that they've had

1060
00:46:50.880 --> 00:46:51.960
to be upgraded for the elements.

1061
00:46:52.019 --> 00:46:54.179
Yeah, they've gone, well, we're going to the moon.

1062
00:46:54.239 --> 00:46:58.320
And that's why they now have this, they can't deal with radiation

1063
00:46:58.320 --> 00:47:02.460
because they've had to make some affordances to deal with the

1064
00:47:02.460 --> 00:47:02.880
vacuum.

1065
00:47:02.940 --> 00:47:05.760
So it kind of means, oh, now we can't go and do that thing.

1066
00:47:05.820 --> 00:47:08.519
We would have been able to do if we had our cloth masks on, which

1067
00:47:08.519 --> 00:47:10.320
was go and do the radiation business.

1068
00:47:10.380 --> 00:47:13.980
They've, you know, there's always a give and take in design where

1069
00:47:13.980 --> 00:47:16.380
you're like, oh, well, that's, we've made ourselves a stupid

1070
00:47:16.380 --> 00:47:17.099
weakness now.

1071
00:47:17.519 --> 00:47:19.440
I like that, yeah.

1072
00:47:19.739 --> 00:47:24.599
I mean, it is, though, I think, telling that there isn't a look

1073
00:47:24.659 --> 00:47:25.739
you know what I mean?

1074
00:47:25.800 --> 00:47:27.239
handles for ears.

1075
00:47:27.840 --> 00:47:28.199
That's it.

1076
00:47:28.260 --> 00:47:30.659
I'm I miss the chest units.

1077
00:47:30.719 --> 00:47:31.079
Yeah.

1078
00:47:31.079 --> 00:47:33.599
Like when Russell State Davis got rid of the chest units.

1079
00:47:33.659 --> 00:47:37.260
I was like, oh, I always liked a bit of, you know, I mean, the

1080
00:47:37.260 --> 00:47:40.559
things that he said, I think the things that he said were, because

1081
00:47:40.559 --> 00:47:43.380
I think he just let that be designed to me.

1082
00:47:43.440 --> 00:47:46.559
And he said that it needed the teardrop, which 1st appears in

1083
00:47:46.559 --> 00:47:49.380
wheel and space, and he's clearly...

1084
00:47:49.380 --> 00:47:50.880
I was also crying during the wheel and space.

1085
00:47:50.940 --> 00:47:54.000
But it's clearly just there so the actors can see out the mask.

1086
00:47:54.059 --> 00:47:54.659
Correct.

1087
00:47:54.719 --> 00:47:56.699
Um, and...

1088
00:47:56.699 --> 00:47:59.880
But there were nostrils. extra nostrils.

1089
00:47:59.940 --> 00:48:05.280
And I think that this Cyberman look that we get here is probably

1090
00:48:05.280 --> 00:48:08.039
the best one, this one through Wheeling Space.

1091
00:48:08.099 --> 00:48:12.420
I think once they get the big heads, then, you know, I'm done.

1092
00:48:12.960 --> 00:48:16.320
Something very scary about the invasion cyberman.

1093
00:48:16.380 --> 00:48:16.800
Yeah.

1094
00:48:16.860 --> 00:48:19.980
Yeah, I mean, I think they're good, but they're in a great story

1095
00:48:19.980 --> 00:48:24.300
but I do like the more sort of streamlined ones that we get in the

1096
00:48:24.300 --> 00:48:25.079
early 60s.

1097
00:48:25.139 --> 00:48:26.760
And the little mouth flap.

1098
00:48:26.820 --> 00:48:27.239
Open.

1099
00:48:27.300 --> 00:48:28.440
Yeah, that's awesome.

1100
00:48:28.500 --> 00:48:32.400
Well, I mean, that's a little bit like, which I remember us

1101
00:48:32.400 --> 00:48:35.460
regarding as ridiculous years and years ago, and now we think is

1102
00:48:35.460 --> 00:48:39.059
great, where the actor was opening their mouth. and the words were

1103
00:48:39.059 --> 00:48:40.380
coming out in the 10th planet.

1104
00:48:40.440 --> 00:48:40.800
Yeah, yeah.

1105
00:48:40.860 --> 00:48:42.300
I was always as a kid.

1106
00:48:42.360 --> 00:48:43.980
I was amazed.

1107
00:48:44.039 --> 00:48:46.260
Simon had these, this stream, I looked.

1108
00:48:46.320 --> 00:48:49.619
I always thought the Simon would look like Revenge of the Simon

1109
00:48:49.619 --> 00:48:51.000
the big heads, yeah, yeah.

1110
00:48:51.059 --> 00:48:53.880
And I didn't realise that it was like they looked different.

1111
00:48:53.940 --> 00:48:56.219
A lot of that would have been the cover illustrations of the

1112
00:48:56.219 --> 00:49:00.119
novelisations because for this story and Tomb of the Cyberman, they

1113
00:49:00.119 --> 00:49:02.460
look like the invasion and eventually Cyberman Cyberman.

1114
00:49:02.519 --> 00:49:06.900
I like the fact that they continually change and upgrade, even, you

1115
00:49:06.900 --> 00:49:09.000
know, sometimes it might be a step backward.

1116
00:49:09.059 --> 00:49:09.659
I do like that.

1117
00:49:09.719 --> 00:49:12.599
I mean, I have to say that one of the things about ascension of

1118
00:49:12.599 --> 00:49:15.480
the side men that I disliked was the return of the big giant head

1119
00:49:15.480 --> 00:49:16.440
side man.

1120
00:49:16.739 --> 00:49:19.260
I thought we'd seen the back of them.

1121
00:49:19.320 --> 00:49:20.219
Oh, I love that.

1122
00:49:20.280 --> 00:49:21.360
I thought it was fantastic.

1123
00:49:21.420 --> 00:49:24.840
That was your biggest problem with that episode. not my biggest

1124
00:49:24.840 --> 00:49:25.800
problem with that episode.

1125
00:49:40.920 --> 00:49:42.780
This is just such an important story.

1126
00:49:42.840 --> 00:49:46.500
I don't think it works on all levels, and I think the sidemen have

1127
00:49:46.500 --> 00:49:49.980
lost something, which was important and interesting, which was set

1128
00:49:49.980 --> 00:49:53.639
up, but I think this has secured the future of the program, this

1129
00:49:53.639 --> 00:49:56.820
story because it brazenly sets out to scare.

1130
00:49:56.880 --> 00:50:00.960
Previously, only Terry Nation had ever used words in episode

1131
00:50:00.960 --> 00:50:06.119
titles like Terror and Fear, whereas going forwards, God, who will

1132
00:50:06.119 --> 00:50:06.840
always be this.

1133
00:50:06.900 --> 00:50:08.639
It will be a horror of Fang Rock.

1134
00:50:08.699 --> 00:50:12.360
It will be the terror of the Autons, the curse of Paladon.

1135
00:50:12.420 --> 00:50:16.199
And I think it may be a workmanlike production, but workmanlike

1136
00:50:16.199 --> 00:50:18.960
indicates that there is a base level of competence.

1137
00:50:19.019 --> 00:50:22.260
And that's what this story achieves going forward.

1138
00:50:22.320 --> 00:50:25.440
It sets a template and says Doctor Who will never be worse than

1139
00:50:25.440 --> 00:50:26.400
this going forward.

1140
00:50:26.460 --> 00:50:30.000
It will always be able to achieve what this story achieves. if

1141
00:50:30.000 --> 00:50:30.780
they put in the effort.

1142
00:50:30.840 --> 00:50:33.480
However...

1143
00:50:33.599 --> 00:50:37.139
Sometimes they don't put in the effort, and that is a problem.

1144
00:50:37.199 --> 00:50:39.719
But you know, up until this point, you'd be lurching from a boring

1145
00:50:39.719 --> 00:50:40.380
historical.

1146
00:50:40.440 --> 00:50:44.039
Let's say the highlanders, the massacre.

1147
00:50:44.099 --> 00:50:50.099
Yeah, mascot, very much. to sort of weird, crappy B movie sci-fi

1148
00:50:50.099 --> 00:50:51.179
like the underwater menace.

1149
00:50:51.239 --> 00:50:55.320
This is just an important story to say Doctor Who will not be that

1150
00:50:55.320 --> 00:50:56.280
again.

1151
00:51:18.480 --> 00:51:21.059
Well, that's all the time we have for this week.

1152
00:51:21.119 --> 00:51:25.260
We'll be back next week to stare in slack jawed wonder as Doctor

1153
00:51:25.260 --> 00:51:29.400
Who attempts to make green lizard men from Mars a thing in the

1154
00:51:29.400 --> 00:51:30.360
seeds of death.

1155
00:51:30.420 --> 00:51:34.019
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts

1156
00:51:34.019 --> 00:51:37.920
and you can keep up with us on our website, 500yearDiary.com, or

1157
00:51:37.920 --> 00:51:40.800
you'll find our social media links, as well as our links to all of

1158
00:51:40.800 --> 00:51:44.280
our other podcasts, including our other Doctor Who podcasts

1159
00:51:44.280 --> 00:51:47.579
flights for entirety, and the 2nd great and bountiful human

1160
00:51:47.579 --> 00:51:48.119
empire.

1161
00:51:48.840 --> 00:51:53.039
Until next time, have a couple of poly cocktails on us.

1162
00:51:53.099 --> 00:51:55.440
Maybe take it easy on the acetone.

1163
00:51:55.500 --> 00:51:58.139
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

1164
00:51:58.199 --> 00:51:58.559
Good night.

1165
00:51:58.619 --> 00:51:59.159
Good night.

1166
00:51:59.219 --> 00:52:00.239
See you soon.

1167
00:52:12.300 --> 00:52:16.739
That was 500-year diary, starring Todd B. will be Nathan Bottomley

1168
00:52:16.739 --> 00:52:17.639
Peter Group, with St.

1169
00:52:17.639 --> 00:52:18.239
Adam Richard.

1170
00:52:18.300 --> 00:52:21.179
The theme was composed by Cameron Lamb.

1171
00:52:21.239 --> 00:52:24.659
This episode, the show as we know it, was recorded on the 23rd of

1172
00:52:24.659 --> 00:52:27.840
March 2025 and released on the 4th of May.

1173
00:52:27.900 --> 00:52:31.800
And on this week's episode of The Second Great and Bountiful Human

1174
00:52:31.800 --> 00:52:35.820
Empire, we'll be talking about the return of Ruby Sunday and Unit

1175
00:52:35.820 --> 00:52:38.099
to Doctor Who in Lucky Day.

1176
00:52:38.159 --> 00:52:42.480
So head on over to greatandbountiful.com and subscribe.

1177
00:52:55.980 --> 00:52:57.659
What do you think?

1178
00:52:57.719 --> 00:52:58.860
Yeah, that's great.

1179
00:52:58.860 --> 00:53:02.639
No, I totally utterly agree with you, because next story, we have

1180
00:53:02.639 --> 00:53:05.039
Petritron's face in the opening credits.

1181
00:53:05.099 --> 00:53:09.659
Like, it's suddenly, I, so we'll talk about this when we record

1182
00:53:09.659 --> 00:53:17.340
the next thing, but just like, it's the, so the seeds of death.

1183
00:53:17.400 --> 00:53:20.820
I just, even the music's is improved, isn't it?

1184
00:53:20.940 --> 00:53:21.840
Oh great.

1185
00:53:21.900 --> 00:53:23.760
So we improve the title music.

1186
00:53:23.820 --> 00:53:24.659
Yeah.

1187
00:53:24.719 --> 00:53:27.000
Did we improve the title, the title music?

1188
00:53:27.059 --> 00:53:28.800
Yeah, it starts with the little tinkling.

1189
00:53:29.099 --> 00:53:29.639
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1190
00:53:29.699 --> 00:53:32.639
So it's a little bit more complicated, that new title sequence is

1191
00:53:32.639 --> 00:53:33.360
so much better.

1192
00:53:33.420 --> 00:53:37.500
Well, I think we'll start next time talking about why it's just

1193
00:53:37.500 --> 00:53:42.539
because that's a sort of Simon, you kind of discussion about like

1194
00:53:42.539 --> 00:53:44.400
because production.

1195
00:53:44.460 --> 00:53:44.820
Yeah.

1196
00:53:44.880 --> 00:53:48.239
Well, you know, like when I was watching Darlic Invasion of Earth

1197
00:53:48.239 --> 00:53:53.400
for this, initially I just put it on the big, like, you know, full

1198
00:53:53.400 --> 00:53:57.179
screen on my monitor and it was just not an enjoyable experience.

1199
00:53:57.239 --> 00:54:01.079
So it's much better in a smaller window.

1200
00:54:01.260 --> 00:54:02.760
He is.

1201
00:54:02.760 --> 00:54:04.440
That's how we watched.

1202
00:54:04.860 --> 00:54:11.340
I remember watching Doctor Who on a tiny black and white TV that I

1203
00:54:11.340 --> 00:54:14.519
had in my bedroom, like that's like even the baker era I watched

1204
00:54:14.519 --> 00:54:16.619
in black and white on a tiny television.

1205
00:54:16.679 --> 00:54:20.280
I had like an inch, like a little, like a little one where you had

1206
00:54:20.280 --> 00:54:24.059
to tune into the different channels using a dial.

1207
00:54:24.119 --> 00:54:28.559
This story is made for that. story is made for that little black

1208
00:54:28.559 --> 00:54:30.300
and white images on a little TV.

1209
00:54:30.360 --> 00:54:30.900
Yes.

1210
00:54:30.900 --> 00:54:32.639
We said on Darlic Invasion Earth last week.

1211
00:54:32.699 --> 00:54:36.059
I said that the Daleks are a little bit lost in those big

1212
00:54:36.059 --> 00:54:40.500
panoramas, out on location in London, watching them on a small

1213
00:54:40.500 --> 00:54:42.179
screen in 405 line.

1214
00:54:42.239 --> 00:54:43.619
They just don't have a lot of impact.

1215
00:54:43.679 --> 00:54:47.099
This story is made and designed to give the sidemen that impact on

1216
00:54:47.099 --> 00:54:50.039
the whole big face of a sidemen just suddenly.

1217
00:54:50.039 --> 00:54:50.639
Yeah, yeah.

1218
00:54:50.699 --> 00:54:53.400
You're like, no, they're starting at the end of the episode.

1219
00:54:53.460 --> 00:54:57.420
It recently sets out to scare and that's a new thing for Doctor

1220
00:54:57.420 --> 00:54:57.780
Who.

1221
00:54:57.900 --> 00:55:02.940
The one the is it Cliffhanger to episode 3 or two, two, where it

1222
00:55:02.940 --> 00:55:03.539
gets out of the bed.

1223
00:55:03.599 --> 00:55:04.860
It's two, isn't it?

1224
00:55:04.920 --> 00:55:06.119
So quick.

1225
00:55:06.119 --> 00:55:07.019
So good.

1226
00:55:07.079 --> 00:55:09.300
Even watching it now gives me the willies.

1227
00:55:09.360 --> 00:55:10.619
Yeah, yeah, it's so great.

1228
00:55:10.619 --> 00:55:12.179
Much like that porn hub.

1229
00:55:12.239 --> 00:55:13.440
Can't agree.

1230
00:55:13.500 --> 00:55:15.420
Speaking of willies from porn.

1231
00:55:15.780 --> 00:55:18.960
It's just, it's so linear.

1232
00:55:19.019 --> 00:55:20.340
Like it's so linear.

1233
00:55:20.400 --> 00:55:21.119
Do you know what I mean?

1234
00:55:21.179 --> 00:55:24.000
Like, it's not like the plot isn't very interesting.

1235
00:55:24.059 --> 00:55:25.920
It's just, you know, like it's oak.

1236
00:55:25.980 --> 00:55:27.360
That's definitely God explores.

1237
00:55:27.420 --> 00:55:29.639
It's a coat hangout for horror.

1238
00:55:29.699 --> 00:55:31.019
Yeah, it's a realistic thing.

1239
00:55:31.079 --> 00:55:31.679
Yeah, exactly.

1240
00:55:31.739 --> 00:55:36.539
But it's kind of a big plate of cake vehicle landing on this.

1241
00:55:36.659 --> 00:55:40.500
I mean, look, being able to repair a hole in the wall with a

1242
00:55:40.500 --> 00:55:41.219
coffee tray.

1243
00:55:41.280 --> 00:55:42.360
Well, that's awesome.

1244
00:55:42.420 --> 00:55:45.059
That's absolutely Doctor Who. hilariously fun.

1245
00:55:45.119 --> 00:55:46.079
But yes, I love it.

1246
00:55:46.139 --> 00:55:49.260
And that's Doctor Who. hilariously fun. all, you know, all the

1247
00:55:49.260 --> 00:55:51.900
air's getting sucked out and then, you know, then it's not.

1248
00:55:51.960 --> 00:55:55.199
Like, I think the science for that is pretty strong as well.

1249
00:55:55.260 --> 00:55:59.639
I love the kind of like moment of hesitation of like, yeah, I'll

1250
00:55:59.639 --> 00:56:00.599
turn the coffee over.

1251
00:56:00.659 --> 00:56:02.400
It's always like a...

1252
00:56:02.519 --> 00:56:03.960
On the one hand, we have to breathe.

1253
00:56:04.019 --> 00:56:06.539
But on the other hand...

1254
00:56:06.599 --> 00:56:09.900
They've actually spent 5 minutes of their precious time at Ealing

1255
00:56:09.900 --> 00:56:13.380
shooting the cutaway of the train.

1256
00:56:13.559 --> 00:56:15.179
It's amazing.

1257
00:56:15.239 --> 00:56:17.400
Because that's the other thing, like the special effects and the

1258
00:56:17.400 --> 00:56:21.179
ability to stop recording and all that now compared to a year ago

1259
00:56:21.179 --> 00:56:25.679
or even 6 months ago. is really evident in terms of the late 60s

1260
00:56:25.679 --> 00:56:26.760
product television production.

1261
00:56:26.820 --> 00:56:32.099
And the gravitron, like looking like the script wants it to look

1262
00:56:32.099 --> 00:56:35.039
so that you are directing it at a thing.

1263
00:56:35.099 --> 00:56:39.000
Because the other thing is the Simon here vulnerable to gravity.

1264
00:56:39.059 --> 00:56:42.659
And you kind of go, well, like everyone...

1265
00:56:42.719 --> 00:56:43.619
Do you remember the thing?

1266
00:56:43.739 --> 00:56:47.039
Do you remember the thing in Silver Nemesis, where Lady Painfort

1267
00:56:47.039 --> 00:56:52.920
has gold arrows dipped in poison and at the same and go, oh, we

1268
00:56:52.920 --> 00:56:53.639
can't handle that.

1269
00:56:53.820 --> 00:56:54.840
Their gold will run away.

1270
00:56:54.900 --> 00:56:58.860
And so the Nazis go and wheel attack because we're not vulnerable

1271
00:56:58.860 --> 00:56:59.280
to gold.

1272
00:56:59.340 --> 00:57:00.599
And he comes out.

1273
00:57:00.659 --> 00:57:04.320
You are also... you are... arrows dicked in poison.

1274
00:57:05.639 --> 00:57:09.179
And I thought that that was that, you know, gravity.

1275
00:57:09.239 --> 00:57:12.360
It turns out when you direct the graviton at the cybermen, they

1276
00:57:12.360 --> 00:57:15.539
fly up into the air, which is what would happen with literally any

1277
00:57:15.539 --> 00:57:16.980
physical object.

1278
00:57:17.099 --> 00:57:19.079
Substitute the ice.

1279
00:57:19.139 --> 00:57:21.360
I would have loved to have seen the yeti.

1280
00:57:21.420 --> 00:57:24.179
A nice warrior, the big headed bubble headed ones.

1281
00:57:24.239 --> 00:57:25.380
The big eyes.

1282
00:57:25.559 --> 00:57:27.119
So bad.

1283
00:57:27.179 --> 00:57:30.960
I'm going to talk about mention you because you say you call them

1284
00:57:30.960 --> 00:57:31.559
pumpkin.

1285
00:57:31.619 --> 00:57:33.179
No, pineapple headed one.

1286
00:57:33.239 --> 00:57:35.460
You know, you know how they've got like pumpkin heads.

1287
00:57:35.519 --> 00:57:36.659
They've got pumpkin head.

1288
00:57:36.719 --> 00:57:38.699
They've got like the big one, the big head and the smaller body

1289
00:57:38.699 --> 00:57:41.639
and it's sort of mismatched suits. and you kind of go, which

1290
00:57:41.639 --> 00:57:45.059
they're away with after the ice force, but then inexplicably bring

1291
00:57:45.059 --> 00:57:47.219
back in the background in Monster.

1292
00:57:47.280 --> 00:57:47.820
Paladin.

1293
00:57:47.880 --> 00:57:49.559
It's there Yeah, yeah.

1294
00:57:49.619 --> 00:57:50.579
The pumpkin head?

1295
00:57:50.639 --> 00:57:51.179
Pineapple hair.

1296
00:57:51.300 --> 00:57:55.320
Whatever you want to call it, I want to just start that episode by

1297
00:57:55.320 --> 00:58:00.960
saying they are the worst recurring monster in the history of

1298
00:58:00.960 --> 00:58:01.800
Doctor Who.

1299
00:58:01.860 --> 00:58:06.179
They just look stupid. like the fluffy pubes and they're big

1300
00:58:06.179 --> 00:58:07.019
asses.

1301
00:58:07.079 --> 00:58:07.920
Right here.

1302
00:58:08.760 --> 00:58:10.739
But you're totally right.

1303
00:58:10.800 --> 00:58:13.139
Like, compare them to the cyberman, which you just talked about.

1304
00:58:13.199 --> 00:58:16.980
It's like I'm an extremelined and fit and strong.

1305
00:58:17.039 --> 00:58:18.900
They look like the future coming up.

1306
00:58:18.960 --> 00:58:20.039
I suppose it's been on their heart.

1307
00:58:20.519 --> 00:58:21.599
Ask Toya.

1308
00:58:21.659 --> 00:58:22.860
What's her name?

1309
00:58:22.920 --> 00:58:23.940
Anyway, okay.