WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 09:06:36

1
00:00:33.000 --> 00:00:36.899
Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to 500 year diary.

2
00:00:36.960 --> 00:00:41.579
The only Doctor Who podcast now ready to start Operational System 2.

3
00:00:42.359 --> 00:00:44.820
Operational System 2 will now begin.

4
00:00:44.939 --> 00:00:46.740
I'm Nathan.

5
00:00:46.799 --> 00:00:47.460
I'm Adam.

6
00:00:47.579 --> 00:00:48.299
I'm Peter.

7
00:00:48.359 --> 00:00:49.560
And I'm Todd.

8
00:00:49.619 --> 00:00:57.299
It's been 4 months since the doctor 1st met the cyberman and tonight 8100000 people have tuned in to see him do it again.

9
00:00:57.359 --> 00:01:02.100
In a story that many of them undoubtedly found eerily familiar.

10
00:01:02.159 --> 00:01:07.680
But did that story succeed in creating a thrilling new recurring enemy for the doctor?

11
00:01:07.739 --> 00:01:11.459
Let's find out as we discuss the moon base.

12
00:01:29.519 --> 00:01:36.959
So, I think that the moon base, just four months after the 10th planet is more or less exactly the same.

13
00:01:37.500 --> 00:01:40.319
Discuss, discuss.

14
00:01:40.560 --> 00:01:44.400
That's like saying all of Terry Nation's Dalek stories are the same.

15
00:01:44.459 --> 00:01:45.719
Oh except they aren't.

16
00:01:46.019 --> 00:01:48.719
So let's think about it, right?

17
00:01:48.780 --> 00:01:55.439
We have a base with an international crew entirely made up of men.

18
00:01:55.500 --> 00:01:59.099
It's in a distant location.

19
00:01:59.159 --> 00:02:00.239
What else?

20
00:02:00.299 --> 00:02:09.120
We have a group of people who stair helplessly on as a space rocket is deflected off to its certain death.

21
00:02:09.479 --> 00:02:19.080
We have cybermen striding across a strange landscape in order to reach the base.

22
00:02:19.139 --> 00:02:26.400
We're in constant contact with an authority figure off the base who we have a slightly fractious relationship with.

23
00:02:26.520 --> 00:02:29.340
We have an intransigent base commander who we have to deal with.

24
00:02:29.400 --> 00:02:31.439
We have an intransigent base commander.

25
00:02:31.500 --> 00:02:33.840
You have cybermen in disguise.

26
00:02:33.900 --> 00:02:35.699
Yes, and then revealing themselves.

27
00:02:35.759 --> 00:02:37.560
I was here all along.

28
00:02:37.620 --> 00:02:38.639
Holly or...

29
00:02:38.639 --> 00:02:45.599
We kill all the cybermen and then more of them reappear after that.

30
00:02:46.199 --> 00:02:48.240
Have they missed anything?

31
00:02:48.300 --> 00:02:51.840
It's bigger and it's better, I think.

32
00:02:51.960 --> 00:03:00.360
There's also in the 10th planet, you have a person of colour in a really important job, but in this one they're the chef.

33
00:03:01.259 --> 00:03:06.120
That's true. got a little bit backwards.

34
00:03:06.180 --> 00:03:07.379
Yes, in 4 months.

35
00:03:07.560 --> 00:03:10.319
So you think this is bigger and better?

36
00:03:10.379 --> 00:03:12.599
I think this is bigger and better.

37
00:03:12.659 --> 00:03:16.979
I think there's an important thing here that the moon base is the template. for future Doctor Who.

38
00:03:17.039 --> 00:03:31.620
There's a lot of firsts in this story and because we don't necessarily watch Doctor Who in order anymore and we become kind of inured to what happened in Doctor Who, as you went along, that we lose track of the fact that this is new and different and vibrant.

39
00:03:31.680 --> 00:03:36.060
Doctor Who obviously has a base under siege formula, and this is where that starts.

40
00:03:36.120 --> 00:03:43.319
And I think this is the 1st army of implacable monsters who are kind, you mentioned striding across a barren landscape.

41
00:03:43.379 --> 00:03:45.419
This is the 1st story that really does that.

42
00:03:45.479 --> 00:03:51.240
And so I think this is Doctor Who going forwards and it's the key turning point in the black and white years.

43
00:03:51.300 --> 00:03:58.139
Yeah, it's also like we don't lose the main actor for an entire episode and their lines redistributed.

44
00:03:58.199 --> 00:03:58.919
Yeah.

45
00:03:58.979 --> 00:04:09.900
I think, I mean, I think that, uh, and I think Santa says this, that Troughton's doctor works much better in a base under siege in a way where Hartnell is kind of uncomfortable.

46
00:04:09.960 --> 00:04:14.400
And his doctor is sort of super weird, I think, in the 10th planet.

47
00:04:14.460 --> 00:04:18.540
That thing where he writes the clue down on the piece of paper and stuff and shows them later.

48
00:04:18.660 --> 00:04:21.180
Like it's all just, he doesn't really know what's going on.

49
00:04:21.240 --> 00:04:33.899
Also, Hartner was so kind of strident and patrician that when he bumps up against someone else like that, it's kind of you're like, well, who am I barracking for here?

50
00:04:33.959 --> 00:04:35.459
You're both really annoying.

51
00:04:35.519 --> 00:04:40.379
Whereas Patrick Troughton's doctor is so like, oh, no, I'm going to undermine.

52
00:04:40.439 --> 00:04:44.220
I'm going to white ant everyone from, you know, by pulling their shoes off.

53
00:04:44.339 --> 00:04:47.100
That's what they're...

54
00:04:47.160 --> 00:04:48.600
It's a very strange moment.

55
00:04:48.660 --> 00:04:51.600
That's what qualified as turning down his performance.

56
00:04:51.660 --> 00:04:54.600
It is, because like the previous 3 stories.

57
00:04:54.660 --> 00:04:59.579
He'd been quite manic and over the top and dressing in funny outfits.

58
00:04:59.639 --> 00:05:10.800
I recently watched the underwater menace, which is the one before this, and it's almost like he's come in contact with Joseph 1st and gone, oh, have I been doing that for 3 books?

59
00:05:10.860 --> 00:05:11.879
Bring it down, love.

60
00:05:11.939 --> 00:05:12.420
Bring it down.

61
00:05:12.480 --> 00:05:14.879
I'm going to be a bit more normal.

62
00:05:16.259 --> 00:05:42.540
I want to say that I think this story is as important as the Dalek invasion of Earth. as what we discussed last week, because as Peter said, this is a line in the sand, this production team, over the last year, have been slowly building to this point, we've gotten rid of singular episode titles, we now have much bigger sets that don't look like they're just going to fall apart, except that it did.

63
00:05:42.600 --> 00:05:43.560
Of course it did.

64
00:05:44.879 --> 00:05:50.220
As you've mentioned on other podcasts, the floor has been raised.

65
00:05:50.279 --> 00:06:03.720
Total collapse of a story, which happened last week in terms of production, is not really going to happen again, we might have elements that are a bit dodge, like from bathing caps to little strings that we can see, but the total failure.

66
00:06:03.779 --> 00:06:05.339
I don't think is going to happen.

67
00:06:05.399 --> 00:06:09.660
And as you've said, we've dismantled the show, as we know it.

68
00:06:09.720 --> 00:06:17.220
We're now looking at things set in the near future on alien planets with humans, right, or human descendants, right?

69
00:06:17.279 --> 00:06:18.480
Moving forward.

70
00:06:18.540 --> 00:06:25.019
Whereas the heart and hear is much more science fantasy set, like sort of the 50s elements of sci-fi.

71
00:06:25.079 --> 00:06:33.000
Whereas this, when you look at it, you've got microphones. you've got tape reels, you've got, they're putting the science into the fiction, things that we can identify with, right?

72
00:06:33.060 --> 00:06:40.319
And I think, you know, we've had the war machines, we've had the 10th planet, we're sort of building to this, the historicals are now gone.

73
00:06:40.379 --> 00:06:42.360
We may have historical settings, right?

74
00:06:42.480 --> 00:06:47.040
In a few episodes time, you know, they'll be back in time, but there's an evil to be fought.

75
00:06:47.100 --> 00:06:49.740
It's not about being in an historical context.

76
00:06:49.800 --> 00:06:53.819
We've just had the regeneration and as you've said, Patrick Charton hasn't been.

77
00:06:53.879 --> 00:06:57.120
He's been whatever, and here he suddenly is, right?

78
00:06:57.360 --> 00:07:02.220
We've still got the Hartnell opening titles, but they're gone after this.

79
00:07:02.279 --> 00:07:15.779
And this is something that we're used to, all of us in this room, is that, you know, looking at talk 2 in the 70s, we're used to having change of doctors, change of opening titles, but all of this is just, all this building has all happened.

80
00:07:15.839 --> 00:07:18.540
We've also got Jamie who's got nothing to do with the 1st doctor.

81
00:07:18.600 --> 00:07:21.000
As Peter said, this is the template moving forward.

82
00:07:21.060 --> 00:07:22.319
This is the Doctor Who that we know.

83
00:07:22.379 --> 00:07:37.860
Yes, we'll talk about some, this is a bit rough in a few places, but generally it's competent and it's what we know to be Doctor Who as opposed to the previous 2 years where Doctor Who has sort of been developing as television's been developed.

84
00:07:37.920 --> 00:07:43.740
And it's no surprise that this is based on the proto-template of the 10th planet.

85
00:07:43.800 --> 00:07:49.560
Because the 10th planet was the 1st time in 6 months that Doctor Who's ratings rebounded.

86
00:07:49.620 --> 00:07:54.000
And I don't think all of that is down to just a new and interesting adversary in the cybermen.

87
00:07:54.060 --> 00:07:59.399
I think it was the type of story that they discovered, they could tell well and that the audience took to.

88
00:07:59.699 --> 00:08:06.660
I have to say that I think that the base under siege is actually a step backwards and it's slightly regressive.

89
00:08:06.720 --> 00:08:07.319
Yeah.

90
00:08:07.379 --> 00:08:11.759
I mean, just from the point of view of the shows, like what the show is about.

91
00:08:11.819 --> 00:08:16.800
Like the show now becomes about fighting an external force that's trying to break in.

92
00:08:16.860 --> 00:08:18.420
But it's hard not to read it.

93
00:08:18.480 --> 00:08:20.220
There's some sort of weird cold war thing.

94
00:08:20.339 --> 00:08:22.620
And I think that's just a little bit of a shame.

95
00:08:22.680 --> 00:08:25.139
And it restricts what Doctor Who can do.

96
00:08:25.199 --> 00:08:27.600
And that's not always such a bad thing.

97
00:08:27.660 --> 00:08:30.959
The Philip Hinchcliffe here, I think, drastically restricts what Doctor Who can do.

98
00:08:31.019 --> 00:08:32.759
And so in its own way, just to pert we.

99
00:08:32.820 --> 00:08:36.059
Yeah, and they both raise the floor. you know, like really well.

100
00:08:36.120 --> 00:08:38.460
Like they've identified something they can do well.

101
00:08:38.519 --> 00:08:42.000
But I mean, the following year is a bit of a grind, isn't it?

102
00:08:42.059 --> 00:08:43.799
But I mean, that's the fault of the production team.

103
00:08:43.860 --> 00:08:47.519
They found something that worked and then they just leaned into it to death. yeah exactly.

104
00:08:47.580 --> 00:08:49.679
Also, if they used it, they found something sparing.

105
00:08:49.679 --> 00:08:50.340
Affordable.

106
00:08:50.399 --> 00:09:00.539
Like, it's like, if you can immortize the one giant set for 4 episodes and trap everyone in it, then it's like, oh, we don't have to build a new set every week.

107
00:09:00.600 --> 00:09:02.700
We don't have to do much exterior filming.

108
00:09:02.759 --> 00:09:04.919
We can do a couple of model shots and we're done.

109
00:09:05.039 --> 00:09:07.559
I think it's also building on that.

110
00:09:07.620 --> 00:09:23.100
This is considered by everyone involved to be the key Cyberman story because not only when it was novelized, it was just novelized as Doctor Who and the Cyberman, it was also, I think, like the ninth or the 10th story, to be novelized in the 70s and the 1st Cyberman story.

111
00:09:23.159 --> 00:09:26.100
And so I think this was considered the template going forward.

112
00:09:26.159 --> 00:09:35.399
I remember reading that book and loving it and it felt like kind of like a science fiction crime book because there was the whole thing with the sugar and you finding out what it was.

113
00:09:35.460 --> 00:09:39.960
And then you watch the episode and you're like, oh, it's they just really fall over that.

114
00:09:40.019 --> 00:09:42.179
There's no deduction going on.

115
00:09:42.240 --> 00:09:44.279
But for some reason when I read the book, I mean, I was 12.

116
00:09:44.580 --> 00:09:48.000
But I thought it was like a really exciting, you know, revelation.

117
00:09:48.059 --> 00:09:56.940
It's funny, it was the only trout and novelisation that I'd ever bought. like I was just buying pertweis and Tobs. and but this was called Doctor Who in the Side Men.

118
00:09:57.000 --> 00:09:58.259
I definitely wanted to haven't.

119
00:09:58.320 --> 00:10:02.519
That's my 1st encounter with the 2nd doctor is reading that novelisation.

120
00:10:02.580 --> 00:10:05.340
And I didn't know about Jamie or Polly and Ben either.

121
00:10:05.399 --> 00:10:07.080
And such important things as well.

122
00:10:07.139 --> 00:10:10.740
The cover illustration is so evocative, even though it's the wrong cyberman.

123
00:10:10.799 --> 00:10:11.940
Yeah, fantastic.

124
00:10:12.000 --> 00:10:16.620
And it has interior. like it has its images inside.

125
00:10:16.679 --> 00:10:17.700
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

126
00:10:17.759 --> 00:10:19.259
Yeah, it's adorable.

127
00:10:19.320 --> 00:10:33.840
The other thing too, that I think that it does badly and that is almost immediately done better the following year. is that we have a base crew that has no characteristics of any kind.

128
00:10:33.899 --> 00:10:44.460
So Hobson's personality is that he's an intransigent base commander, and I guess the other person who has a personality is Andre Moran whose personality is what French?

129
00:10:44.519 --> 00:10:45.360
French.

130
00:10:45.360 --> 00:10:47.100
Yeah, cracks onto Polly the minute.

131
00:10:47.159 --> 00:10:47.639
That's right.

132
00:10:47.639 --> 00:10:49.980
To be fair, he's a proper failure and transigent.

133
00:10:50.580 --> 00:10:57.179
I actually find the base commander fairly reasonable compared to some of the other ones. compared to Cutler.

134
00:10:57.240 --> 00:10:58.500
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

135
00:10:58.559 --> 00:11:00.419
Like, they turn up out of nowhere.

136
00:11:00.539 --> 00:11:06.539
And I guess we're used to the doctor and companions being accused of being the people behind what's happening.

137
00:11:06.600 --> 00:11:14.580
But can I just say, Todd, this is the 1st instance in Doctor Who, where someone turns around and says, these problems only begin when that strange doctor and his friends arrived.

138
00:11:14.639 --> 00:11:19.320
But they don't go and throw them in the brig or so we're going to put you out the airlock.

139
00:11:19.379 --> 00:11:23.820
He's quite willing for the doctors to find out, you know what's going on.

140
00:11:23.879 --> 00:11:25.379
So have a go at our science stuff.

141
00:11:25.440 --> 00:11:27.659
We don't have much, but you just go in there.

142
00:11:27.720 --> 00:11:28.799
You've got 24 hours.

143
00:11:28.860 --> 00:11:30.899
So it's a little bit different.

144
00:11:30.960 --> 00:11:33.899
I was actually, I didn't realise it was just Kit Pedler who wrote this.

145
00:11:33.960 --> 00:11:37.440
I'm just so used to Jerry Davis and Kip Peller or an idea by Kip Pedler.

146
00:11:37.860 --> 00:11:41.340
Jerry Davis was the script editor at this point.

147
00:11:41.399 --> 00:11:42.179
He was.

148
00:11:42.240 --> 00:11:46.379
Yeah, so it probably was, but you weren't allowed to credit yourself.

149
00:11:46.440 --> 00:11:48.120
If you were the...

150
00:11:48.179 --> 00:11:58.379
Yeah, I just thought that was interesting that it is, you know, the next year we're going to get all these base commanders, but I just thought he was a little less prickly than some of the ones coming up.

151
00:11:58.440 --> 00:12:02.639
I did think that they were sort of boring, though, the crew.

152
00:12:02.700 --> 00:12:09.120
And I went from watching this immediately to watching The Seeds of Death, which we're going to talk about next week.

153
00:12:09.120 --> 00:12:17.820
And just instantly it's full of characters who are really fun and have identifiable personalities and stuff and who interact with one another in a reasonable way.

154
00:12:17.879 --> 00:12:20.820
And this is obviously something that...

155
00:12:21.480 --> 00:12:24.299
But, well, you know, it's got Gia Kelly.

156
00:12:24.360 --> 00:12:25.080
She's awesome.

157
00:12:25.139 --> 00:12:26.460
For God's sake.

158
00:12:26.519 --> 00:12:30.960
Luis Pacho, who I 1st encountered in prisoner self blockage, but that's a story for another.

159
00:12:32.879 --> 00:12:36.059
And it's something that the new series does tremendously.

160
00:12:36.120 --> 00:12:42.299
Well, a few occasions, except for maybe the ganger to parter, where we have a base under siege.

161
00:12:42.360 --> 00:12:44.399
We have interesting and memorable character.

162
00:12:44.519 --> 00:12:53.940
And in fact, you have a repeat of the scene that you get here in episode one where Helson basically takes the doctor and co around introducing them to all of the plot functions of the characters in there.

163
00:12:54.000 --> 00:12:58.559
You have that in episodes like the Impossible Planet and Waters of Mars.

164
00:12:58.620 --> 00:13:00.419
You just have that same identifiable scene.

165
00:13:00.539 --> 00:13:05.159
I think the characters are just terribly underwritten. they're played well.

166
00:13:05.220 --> 00:13:14.159
Like, I feel like the actors are bringing some humanity to these characters that I think given lesser actors, we would have had a really boring episode.

167
00:13:14.220 --> 00:13:17.519
Like they're giving it a bit more than I think is on the page, to be honest.

168
00:13:17.580 --> 00:13:18.539
I agree with you.

169
00:13:18.600 --> 00:13:23.759
I actually felt that, you know, the Frenchman, the Australian, then there was the other guy creeping around who got zapped by the side of me.

170
00:13:23.820 --> 00:13:29.460
There was enough there was enough there going on where I thought, you know, these guys are trying to bring a bit more to what's happening.

171
00:13:29.519 --> 00:13:33.179
My favourite one is Nils, who calls Hobson Hobby.

172
00:13:33.179 --> 00:13:35.340
And he's Danish.

173
00:13:35.340 --> 00:13:40.559
Yeah, he's Danish. something like, oh, we're getting a bit of a flap on or something like that.

174
00:13:40.620 --> 00:13:42.179
Like he speaks.

175
00:13:42.240 --> 00:13:47.100
It's like Sandy Toxic, you know, like a Dane with a very, very polish English accent.

176
00:13:47.220 --> 00:13:58.500
I mean, I like the fact that, yeah, okay, they're revisiting what they just did in the 10th planet, but they have to sort of ground their feet and make sure they can do this from a certain point of view.

177
00:13:58.559 --> 00:14:01.019
Like, you know, we've done it once and we've done it roughly.

178
00:14:01.080 --> 00:14:04.200
We just want to solidify what we've done before we can build on it.

179
00:14:04.259 --> 00:14:08.700
And if it had been 3 years ago, they probably would all be in English.

180
00:14:08.759 --> 00:14:10.200
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

181
00:14:10.259 --> 00:14:13.080
It is the same thing, isn't it, in the 10th planet?

182
00:14:13.080 --> 00:14:14.639
And it's the same thing in the wheel, in space.

183
00:14:14.700 --> 00:14:21.659
Like the sidemen are sort of constantly attacking these sort of multicultural bases and it's actually like not such a bad thing.

184
00:14:21.779 --> 00:14:22.860
Maybe they're Nazis.

185
00:14:22.919 --> 00:14:25.259
I mean, maybe they're British.

186
00:14:25.799 --> 00:14:28.620
They found something to colonise.

187
00:14:28.679 --> 00:14:30.360
Is that a thing as well?

188
00:14:30.360 --> 00:14:37.379
They're deliberately upping the multiculturalism of these bases to contrast against sort of the featurelessness of the side.

189
00:14:37.440 --> 00:14:38.399
Could that be a thing?

190
00:14:39.720 --> 00:14:42.240
Yeah, it's like everyone has this fear of a monoculture.

191
00:14:42.299 --> 00:14:44.940
And it's the monoculture writ large.

192
00:14:45.000 --> 00:14:48.659
And I think it's also their way of talking about the future.

193
00:14:48.720 --> 00:14:54.779
You know, like you've had things like the United Nations and stuff start to happen after the war.

194
00:14:54.840 --> 00:15:01.139
And I mean, the United Nations are explicitly in the 10th planet. where Kurt from Faulty Towers lives.

195
00:15:01.200 --> 00:15:03.840
Like, he's the United Nations guy.

196
00:15:03.899 --> 00:15:04.379
Yeah.

197
00:15:04.379 --> 00:15:06.600
He's behind a desk somewhere.

198
00:15:06.659 --> 00:15:08.759
Yeah, that's one thing that I miss actually.

199
00:15:08.820 --> 00:15:13.740
So we've got Rindberg in this one and he's just, he is someone, isn't he?

200
00:15:13.860 --> 00:15:15.059
He's the he's the doctor.

201
00:15:15.120 --> 00:15:18.779
He is a doctor who is, of course, skin sale in Horror of Fang Rock.

202
00:15:18.840 --> 00:15:20.879
Yeah, he's the who has the...

203
00:15:20.879 --> 00:15:21.539
Yeah, yeah.

204
00:15:21.600 --> 00:15:23.700
He's infected and never speaks out loud.

205
00:15:23.759 --> 00:15:24.179
No.

206
00:15:24.240 --> 00:15:25.799
But he's Rinberg.

207
00:15:25.860 --> 00:15:36.179
Whereas you have the other guy in the 10th planet and there is that amazing moment in the 10th planet where a place that you think is completely safe from science. just on a screen.

208
00:15:36.240 --> 00:15:36.720
Yeah, yeah.

209
00:15:36.779 --> 00:15:45.419
The cybermen are on the south pole or whatever. in a distant weird place and suddenly they stride into his office and I don't think this has anything that quite equals the shock of that.

210
00:15:52.980 --> 00:16:02.519
I think this story gets so much right in kind of, like the tenor you were saying earlier about the performances, Todd, and how they sort of bring things to life.

211
00:16:02.580 --> 00:16:04.440
The tenor of the performances is right.

212
00:16:04.500 --> 00:16:08.879
The Heart Lera, and I love the Heart Lera from its extremes to its best to its worst.

213
00:16:08.940 --> 00:16:10.919
It could be a little bit woohoo sometimes.

214
00:16:10.980 --> 00:16:12.720
Yeah, especially the John Wild stuff.

215
00:16:12.779 --> 00:16:19.620
Whereas this kind of brings the program a bit more down to earth and I think makes it maybe more accessible to an older audience.

216
00:16:19.679 --> 00:16:25.500
It's not quite so kiddie sci-fi, even though some of the ways that it does things are a little bit kiddie.

217
00:16:25.559 --> 00:16:32.399
But the most important thing, and this goes back to what I was saying earlier about, you know, Doctor Who's motus operandi didn't arrive fully formed.

218
00:16:32.460 --> 00:16:33.539
It sort of happens.

219
00:16:33.600 --> 00:16:38.460
The most important thing is the show is leaning for the very 1st time into horror tropes.

220
00:16:38.519 --> 00:16:38.820
Yeah.

221
00:16:38.820 --> 00:16:43.139
And it's had moments of scare before, you know, menace.

222
00:16:43.200 --> 00:16:50.100
But now it's actively setting out to justify Doctor Who's behind the sofa reputation.

223
00:16:50.159 --> 00:17:04.200
Now, as far as I can identify behind the sofa was 1st mentioned in a newspaper article in 1973, where they said the Daleks were something to get the children hiding behind the sofa in happy anticipation of 25 minutes of fear.

224
00:17:04.259 --> 00:17:06.720
I don't think the Daleks ever were really that.

225
00:17:06.779 --> 00:17:14.579
I think the Daleks were bizarre and otherworldly and fascinated children, but they were never scary in the way that the cybermen are set up here.

226
00:17:14.640 --> 00:17:16.859
So the sidemen lurk in shadows.

227
00:17:16.920 --> 00:17:19.559
Um, you get kind of, you know, characters doing things.

228
00:17:19.619 --> 00:17:22.200
You'll see the cyber shadows sort of fall in the background.

229
00:17:22.259 --> 00:17:28.380
There's jump scares, people turn around and the sidemen are there behind them in full close-up.

230
00:17:28.440 --> 00:17:33.059
And this story has identified that that is a successful model for the series going forward.

231
00:17:33.119 --> 00:17:44.160
So throughout the rest of the trout era, and the early Pertwi era leading up to that 1973 article, you have Doctor Who turning into a program that frightens rather than thrills children.

232
00:17:44.220 --> 00:17:45.660
I think that's a great thing.

233
00:17:45.720 --> 00:17:54.420
Like, I do think that that's good, and maybe that's the big legacy here, but I do think that, in a way, that the base under siege is a bit of a retrograde stamp.

234
00:17:54.599 --> 00:17:57.240
I, I, going with the horror thing.

235
00:17:57.299 --> 00:18:02.339
I think the reason it works so well is because we're getting a bit more kitchen sink.

236
00:18:02.339 --> 00:18:05.279
Because, you know, normally, certainly catch something.

237
00:18:05.339 --> 00:18:11.880
But, you know, normally like the horror in Doctor Who has been like just one more weird thing. in the heart in the area.

238
00:18:11.940 --> 00:18:18.779
But here we get so many mentions of people having cups of coffee in and being plot specific cups of coffee.

239
00:18:18.839 --> 00:18:20.819
You know, Poly's made some coffee.

240
00:18:20.880 --> 00:18:22.740
Oh, the sugar is what's killing everyone.

241
00:18:22.799 --> 00:18:24.299
Here's a tray of coffee.

242
00:18:24.359 --> 00:18:26.880
Let's fill the hole in the wall with the coffee tray.

243
00:18:26.940 --> 00:18:34.799
Like it's such kitchen sink stuff that kind of grounds you into your reality that makes you go, oh, we're always having coffee at home.

244
00:18:34.859 --> 00:18:36.599
What if there was a Superman?

245
00:18:36.660 --> 00:18:38.279
the Daleks on the planet desperate.

246
00:18:38.339 --> 00:18:40.619
This isn't completely removed from our experience.

247
00:18:40.680 --> 00:18:45.839
This paves the way for things like, yes, in the underground, autumns on the high street.

248
00:18:45.900 --> 00:18:57.240
I mean, part of the thing too, part of their problem too, is that I think one of the ways that Doctor Who goes wrong, that starts here, is that it becomes about things that happen to men at work.

249
00:18:57.299 --> 00:19:03.420
And that's like a, that's a big thing even in things that aren't bases under siege.

250
00:19:03.480 --> 00:19:07.380
Basically all of season 7 is here's what happens to men at work.

251
00:19:07.440 --> 00:19:12.180
And you might have our woman, but you don't hear, you've got just Polly.

252
00:19:12.240 --> 00:19:13.500
She the only woman, you know.

253
00:19:13.559 --> 00:19:16.680
She's got a lot more agency than a lot of, yeah, she's great.

254
00:19:16.680 --> 00:19:17.160
Later women.

255
00:19:17.220 --> 00:19:17.880
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

256
00:19:17.940 --> 00:19:18.720
She's creating this.

257
00:19:18.779 --> 00:19:20.339
I mean, obviously she gets to scream.

258
00:19:20.400 --> 00:19:27.059
A number of times at shadows and then she actually gets to come up with a solution to get rid of.

259
00:19:27.059 --> 00:19:29.400
And she gets snapped and knocked out.

260
00:19:29.460 --> 00:19:30.180
That's quite...

261
00:19:30.180 --> 00:19:32.640
Yeah, this rule for a female character.

262
00:19:32.700 --> 00:19:33.839
And she's working with the doctor.

263
00:19:33.900 --> 00:19:35.700
You know, Jamie's knocked out over there.

264
00:19:35.819 --> 00:19:38.819
Ben's wherever Ben is, right?

265
00:19:38.880 --> 00:19:45.059
He's just one of the people in the base and she's sort of front and centre with Patrick for quite a lot of it.

266
00:19:45.119 --> 00:19:49.859
I love that moment where they go, Ben, we're going to sit you at this desk here because we've run out of things for you to do.

267
00:19:49.920 --> 00:19:51.059
So you're going to pretend to work.

268
00:19:52.200 --> 00:19:56.519
I think they went well too many times with the base under siege.

269
00:19:56.579 --> 00:19:58.259
That's absolutely a thing.

270
00:19:58.319 --> 00:20:01.079
Yeah, but I think, you know, like even as later, sort of hand of fear.

271
00:20:01.140 --> 00:20:03.779
Like it's just men in their workplaces.

272
00:20:03.839 --> 00:20:06.420
And sometimes wearing jumpsuits.

273
00:20:06.480 --> 00:20:12.900
And so even when the doctor comes back in 2005, he says, I don't do domestic.

274
00:20:12.960 --> 00:20:17.099
And the new series remedies that in all sorts of ways.

275
00:20:17.160 --> 00:20:18.900
But it might have been better.

276
00:20:18.960 --> 00:20:25.559
You know, per his example of a yeti on the loo and Tooting Beck assumes that they're in your home.

277
00:20:25.619 --> 00:20:42.180
And so it is a bit removed by being a male workplace on the moon, you know, so it's not, you're right, there is kitchen sink stuff there and there is identifiable stuff, but it is from a very restricted part of the world, I think.

278
00:20:42.240 --> 00:20:44.039
And that's just the way it is.

279
00:20:44.099 --> 00:20:46.799
You know, that's that's the times, that's the environment.

280
00:20:46.859 --> 00:20:48.240
And that's the reflection of that.

281
00:20:48.299 --> 00:20:54.839
And I do agree with you about this formula is restrictive in terms of the inventiveness of the show and that sort of thing.

282
00:20:54.900 --> 00:20:56.640
But it is what it is moving forward.

283
00:20:56.700 --> 00:20:59.880
And I think that, you know, they have no choice.

284
00:20:59.940 --> 00:21:03.480
If you're going to do a base under siege story, then you can't just sit in the same place.

285
00:21:03.539 --> 00:21:09.839
So what you do is you set it in a fictional establishment where you have people around you doing different tasks and, you know, a threat from the outside.

286
00:21:09.900 --> 00:21:12.240
And so by its nature, it is what it is.

287
00:21:12.299 --> 00:21:21.960
I think they do go to the well too many times, but I also think that when they do it right, this is the absolute acme of Doctor Who going for.

288
00:21:22.079 --> 00:21:30.599
You know, one thing I loved about this that I think they kind of missed out on as they went along was that the miniatures matched the reality.

289
00:21:30.660 --> 00:21:36.299
Like the gravitron look the same in miniature as it does in the set, like that giant thing.

290
00:21:36.359 --> 00:21:40.259
It's not 100% there, but they definitely, they've made an effort.

291
00:21:40.319 --> 00:21:43.319
Whereas, like, that's just doing it now, it'll be like...

292
00:21:43.380 --> 00:21:46.980
Oh, that thing over there and they'll just point at nothing and then there'll be a miniature.

293
00:21:47.039 --> 00:21:58.440
But it's a level of competence that these springs that we've had a variability before and this is competent in terms of, you know, the set in general. doors, et cetera.

294
00:21:58.500 --> 00:22:04.380
And the things they put on their heads to go in the graviton and what are those breathing apparatus that they're wearing, you know?

295
00:22:04.380 --> 00:22:06.359
That looks like a coke bottle. love that.

296
00:22:06.420 --> 00:22:07.440
Oh no, I love it.

297
00:22:07.500 --> 00:22:09.480
Like, but it's a fish bowl helmet.

298
00:22:09.539 --> 00:22:11.700
I love the emergency oxygen.

299
00:22:11.759 --> 00:22:13.019
I'm like, you never see that.

300
00:22:13.079 --> 00:22:14.640
Like whenever anything is in space.

301
00:22:14.700 --> 00:22:16.859
There's never emergency oxygen.

302
00:22:16.920 --> 00:22:19.859
I also love the moment where they have to use the emergency oxygen.

303
00:22:19.920 --> 00:22:21.420
Polly goes, well, why didn't you do this before?

304
00:22:21.480 --> 00:22:22.680
And they said, well, it would have wasted it.

305
00:22:22.740 --> 00:22:23.460
She goes, oh, okay.

306
00:22:26.579 --> 00:22:36.359
But you also have got special effects like with the cybermen zapping from their fingers. and the gravitron beam. and that laser that they fire, which is Doctor Who's 1st optical effect.

307
00:22:36.420 --> 00:22:36.900
Yeah.

308
00:22:36.900 --> 00:22:37.380
Oh, is it?

309
00:22:37.440 --> 00:22:37.619
Okay.

310
00:22:37.680 --> 00:22:38.339
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

311
00:22:38.400 --> 00:22:39.660
And it's acceptable.

312
00:22:39.720 --> 00:22:42.240
Yeah. 12 months ago may not have been acceptable.

313
00:22:42.299 --> 00:22:44.880
Well, no, it wouldn't go under John Wiles.

314
00:22:44.940 --> 00:22:52.799
This would have been rope years all hell would have had some way out ideas, which would have been very entertaining, enjoyable in their own way. it probably would have been a failed production.

315
00:22:52.859 --> 00:22:55.380
Also, this is so far from a failed production.

316
00:22:55.440 --> 00:22:58.319
William Hartnell refused to wear a spacesuit.

317
00:22:58.440 --> 00:23:01.920
Ah, which is why in the web planet.

318
00:23:01.980 --> 00:23:04.259
They've got those weird anorex that blow air on your face.

319
00:23:04.319 --> 00:23:07.440
Because they need to be wearing wine. 2 conventions.

320
00:23:08.700 --> 00:23:12.839
They need to be wearing white for that special effect shot to work, don't they?

321
00:23:12.900 --> 00:23:14.400
So that's why they're wearing those.

322
00:23:14.460 --> 00:23:16.559
But no, like he refused to have a handle murder.

323
00:23:16.619 --> 00:23:20.880
And so when Patrick Charlton's gone, yeah, I'll put in a spacesuit, they're like, oh, thank God.

324
00:23:20.940 --> 00:23:22.440
Can you go to the moon?

325
00:23:22.500 --> 00:23:23.220
Oh my god.

326
00:23:23.279 --> 00:23:32.339
So I think the moon is obviously a genius idea at this and sort of inevitable and it is better than the South Pole as a...

327
00:23:32.400 --> 00:23:37.019
But, you know, it is really just a couple of years before people are actually there.

328
00:23:37.079 --> 00:23:38.519
Well, yeah, they were doing that.

329
00:23:38.519 --> 00:23:39.480
Rocket testing.

330
00:23:39.599 --> 00:23:48.299
And I'm sure that was the intention for the 10th planet was to be somewhere alien and they ran up against the lead actor who went not putting on a helmet.

331
00:23:48.359 --> 00:23:54.240
But this might be the production they wanted to do with the 10th planet, but they'd lost their actor halfway through.

332
00:23:54.299 --> 00:23:57.420
They were told you have to have snow instead of out of space.

333
00:23:57.480 --> 00:24:06.839
But I still think the 10th planet in terms of its sets, like the base and that looks cramped, it looks cheap at times in various things.

334
00:24:06.900 --> 00:24:08.099
This doesn't, you know?

335
00:24:08.160 --> 00:24:12.359
And so keep going back, there's a competence here. that that didn't have.

336
00:24:12.420 --> 00:24:15.900
And the cybermen don't look like they're held together by sticky tape.

337
00:24:18.960 --> 00:24:21.779
Doctor Who's production always goes forward and fits and starts.

338
00:24:21.900 --> 00:24:24.119
It's never a definitive turning point.

339
00:24:24.180 --> 00:24:26.579
And so even though it's not a very good story.

340
00:24:26.640 --> 00:24:29.880
The production on the arc is actually quite sophisticated.

341
00:24:29.940 --> 00:24:36.480
But then you come back and you've got the celestial toy maker or the smugglers or indeed the 10th planet and they're not quite so sophisticated as productions.

342
00:24:36.539 --> 00:24:41.579
But then you'll get something like Power of the Daleks, which is an insanely sophisticated production.

343
00:24:41.640 --> 00:24:45.240
But then a retrograde step 2 stories later in the underwater menace.

344
00:24:45.299 --> 00:24:52.799
Here, I think, is the moment where they do away with those, yeah, the up and down levels of, you know, what are we going to get this week?

345
00:24:52.859 --> 00:24:53.519
Will it work?

346
00:24:53.579 --> 00:25:06.119
And I think going forward, you have very few productions that could ever, as Todd said, be classified as failing productions, where we start to get that again is the 1980s, which is where the machine starts to come off the series.

347
00:25:06.180 --> 00:25:18.960
I think the other thing with this one is like, I know the episode's missing, but the underwater ballet in underwater menace, I think, has made them go, oh, we can't do the moon.

348
00:25:19.200 --> 00:25:24.539
I would like to see them jumping around on the moon to see actually what it's like.

349
00:25:24.599 --> 00:25:25.619
Do we see the strings?

350
00:25:25.740 --> 00:25:28.500
We absolutely would see the strings, but it would be fun.

351
00:25:28.559 --> 00:25:34.740
But, I mean, we see what we do see is the scene in episode 4 where the Cyberman...

352
00:25:34.799 --> 00:25:37.740
Yeah, or blasted into space. and that looks good.

353
00:25:37.799 --> 00:25:39.000
It looks amazing.

354
00:25:39.059 --> 00:25:42.779
And the sound, the other thing, like all of this music is stock, isn't it?

355
00:25:42.839 --> 00:25:44.640
But it's really good.

356
00:25:44.700 --> 00:25:46.980
Like, I think it's got really memorable music.

357
00:25:47.039 --> 00:25:51.539
And the noise that they make when they're sort of jumping up and down in episode one.

358
00:25:53.279 --> 00:25:57.299
Yeah, but the cybermen make that noise at the end as well when they're going into space.

359
00:25:57.359 --> 00:25:58.440
It's really fun.

360
00:25:58.500 --> 00:25:59.220
That's really fun.

361
00:25:59.279 --> 00:26:07.859
And I think that the spacesuits are so kind of hipster. because they're from the future because it's 2070 or whatever.

362
00:26:07.920 --> 00:26:10.140
So there's spacesuits from 100 years time.

363
00:26:10.200 --> 00:26:22.200
They go out of their way to make them look different from the spacesuits of the present day, which is not what happens in, you know, say the tenant era where you've got that orange spacesuit that just looks like a spacesuit from a science fiction thing.

364
00:26:22.259 --> 00:26:24.180
These are futury spacesuits.

365
00:26:24.480 --> 00:26:25.200
And they're fabulous.

366
00:26:25.259 --> 00:26:29.700
And the fact that they were wearing sunglasses in them and stuff, it's just...

367
00:26:29.759 --> 00:26:34.019
I expected to hear someone say in my eyes, the goggles.

368
00:26:35.039 --> 00:26:37.740
Don't look into the sun, the better one.

369
00:26:37.859 --> 00:26:42.119
Now, look, they figured out what they can do with their resources to work on screen.

370
00:26:42.180 --> 00:26:51.000
And so it's only 12 months ago in a very good production, Dalek's masterplan, where you have someone being ejected into space realised as someone jumping up and down on a trampoline.

371
00:26:51.059 --> 00:26:54.660
Don't really know how that looked, but I suspect not very good.

372
00:26:54.720 --> 00:27:16.200
Whereas here, you've not only got those scenes on strings, on film at Ealing, but you've also got, they're leaning into, as we talked about for the terror of it, with that slow motion chase in episode 3, with the sidemen following the crewmen back and just sort of this, you know, they're running as fast as they can in that low gravity environment and the sidebound are just stalking behind them.

373
00:27:16.259 --> 00:27:19.799
I have no doubt that that would have been a really great scene.

374
00:27:20.039 --> 00:27:22.440
How many cybermen are there?

375
00:27:22.500 --> 00:27:22.980
Do we know?

376
00:27:23.039 --> 00:27:23.940
They're 11.

377
00:27:24.119 --> 00:27:25.079
Are they?

378
00:27:25.079 --> 00:27:26.819
outside or is they?

379
00:27:26.880 --> 00:27:28.380
In total.

380
00:27:28.440 --> 00:27:29.579
Is there 2 in the base?

381
00:27:29.640 --> 00:27:31.799
There's 11 suits, which they use.

382
00:27:31.859 --> 00:27:32.339
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

383
00:27:32.400 --> 00:27:32.940
That's what I meant.

384
00:27:33.000 --> 00:27:33.539
Yeah, yeah.

385
00:27:33.599 --> 00:27:37.019
They made 11 side men, which is unheard of, I think.

386
00:27:37.079 --> 00:27:44.579
Yeah, even in Dalekin Invasion of Earth, which we talked about last week, there's still cardboard daleks in Sloane Square.

387
00:27:44.640 --> 00:27:51.299
Like even later on, like you only get like 3 or 4 of a monster, you know, you don't even get that many jedun, do you?

388
00:27:51.359 --> 00:27:54.299
You'd never have a...

389
00:27:54.359 --> 00:27:58.619
You just have one hero Jadoon and all the rest of them are wearing helmets.

390
00:28:04.980 --> 00:28:12.960
Last week, we talked about how the Daleks really became just robots in the Dalek invasion of Earth, as opposed to what they were before.

391
00:28:13.019 --> 00:28:19.619
Watching this, I was kind of going, well, they really are just robots compared to what they once were performed.

392
00:28:19.680 --> 00:28:22.200
Like, you know, in the 10th planet, they're individuals.

393
00:28:22.259 --> 00:28:25.200
I mean, I know they're not necessarily...

394
00:28:25.259 --> 00:28:29.640
And in fact, in the novelisation of this story, they still have their names, yeah.

395
00:28:29.700 --> 00:28:31.500
But on screen, they don't.

396
00:28:31.559 --> 00:28:41.279
By taking away that face and just making the same face and the funny voice, they really do, I think, become I found it difficult to listen to all the dialogue.

397
00:28:41.339 --> 00:28:43.259
I couldn't get all the dialogue out of the side.

398
00:28:43.319 --> 00:28:46.200
So they don't speak for the 1st 2 episodes for a start.

399
00:28:46.200 --> 00:28:48.779
And they say things like clever, clever, clever.

400
00:28:48.839 --> 00:28:51.059
Yeah, yeah, only stupid earth brains.

401
00:28:51.119 --> 00:28:52.920
Hey I'm right here.

402
00:28:53.220 --> 00:28:58.799
I know that sounds like they've got emotions, but I think what their AI has told them.

403
00:28:58.859 --> 00:29:00.779
This is how you upset humans.

404
00:29:00.779 --> 00:29:03.299
Yes, with mockery and sarcasm.

405
00:29:03.359 --> 00:29:06.839
It's a lesson that the cyber leader in earth shock took very seriously.

406
00:29:06.900 --> 00:29:07.440
Yeah.

407
00:29:07.500 --> 00:29:09.240
So it's an AR.

408
00:29:09.660 --> 00:29:15.240
So the other thing too is that they don't seem to be motivated by anything.

409
00:29:15.299 --> 00:29:23.400
And the thing that made the 10th planet Cybermen scary or one of the many things that made them scary is that they thought they were helping.

410
00:29:23.460 --> 00:29:31.980
So they were coming and they were going to convert us because their planet was inevitably kind of draining our planet's energy or whatever.

411
00:29:32.039 --> 00:29:36.599
And so they were going to help us by converting us. that was kind of terrifying.

412
00:29:36.660 --> 00:29:54.539
And you can't imagine anything in this story comparing to the conversation that the Cyberman has with Polly, about ethics, you know, about all the people on earth that are dying now that you don't care about, like at the Simon wins that conversation.

413
00:29:54.599 --> 00:29:58.680
Here, they really are just delivering functional dialogue.

414
00:29:58.740 --> 00:30:04.259
Well, that's setting side Menopus characters in here, and I think they are very good here with the best will in the world.

415
00:30:04.319 --> 00:30:05.039
They're not characters.

416
00:30:05.099 --> 00:30:06.660
No, they're just a remorseless army.

417
00:30:06.720 --> 00:30:16.380
But that's the other thing that I think is the problem, that everything that's really interesting about the Cyberman goes away here.

418
00:30:16.380 --> 00:30:23.339
And that stays, I think, for the rest of the run, maybe until the 80s or maybe not even that.

419
00:30:23.400 --> 00:30:28.619
Maybe this actually kills off the cybermen as an interesting atmosphere.

420
00:30:28.680 --> 00:30:30.480
I think again, we were talking about fits and starts.

421
00:30:30.539 --> 00:30:33.599
It's not a key turning point here.

422
00:30:33.660 --> 00:30:39.599
Yes, this does that, but I think Tomb of the Cyberman next restores some of what...

423
00:30:39.660 --> 00:30:40.019
Yeah.

424
00:30:40.079 --> 00:30:44.640
And then it goes back again to, you know, the wheeling space, they're just heavies in space.

425
00:30:44.700 --> 00:31:06.299
I kind of, I like the, um, body horror that they introduce in this, like the tendrils moving along the arms, the, yeah, becoming controlled by the cybermen, which, you know, it's not explicit in the script, but I feel like if you're a Doctor Who fan who's watched the 10th planet. you know that they want to convert humans.

426
00:31:06.359 --> 00:31:08.460
And this is like, it's almost subtext.

427
00:31:08.519 --> 00:31:13.680
It's like, well, they've turned these people into automatons using sugar.

428
00:31:13.740 --> 00:31:18.359
Haven't they missed a trick by not physically part cybernetizing them?

429
00:31:18.420 --> 00:31:40.920
Oh, even if it had that reveal of not the spider veins, but actually them throwing off the cloak and they've got like, you know, uh, so even if those helmets, Stratton and Bates. those little helmet things that have on with the eye and the fore, the little dabros, I think they've got, if that had the handles on it or something and you went, oh, no, they're becoming, but it's still, I found that still an effective, terrifying plot point.

430
00:31:40.980 --> 00:31:49.319
I agree with you, but I don't think they could have realised that half cyber ties thing in a way that would be acceptable, which is why I think doing the vein thing works so much better.

431
00:31:49.920 --> 00:31:52.259
They can do, which works on screen.

432
00:31:52.259 --> 00:31:54.900
And the vain thing where they, what are they doing?

433
00:31:54.960 --> 00:31:56.279
They do stop motion or something.

434
00:31:56.339 --> 00:31:58.079
Yeah, it's like a close motion on the hand.

435
00:31:58.140 --> 00:31:58.980
It's effective.

436
00:31:59.039 --> 00:32:01.980
It's really good And their fingers are interesting because they're really pointy.

437
00:32:02.039 --> 00:32:05.519
Like I was thinking, oh, it's really pointy fingers. cricket gloves, you know?

438
00:32:05.579 --> 00:32:06.839
I miss too, yeah.

439
00:32:07.500 --> 00:32:08.640
Are these the 3 fingered ones?

440
00:32:08.700 --> 00:32:11.220
I can't remember.

441
00:32:11.279 --> 00:32:15.180
Because, yeah, I think I think they've now got four.

442
00:32:15.839 --> 00:32:17.460
I don't know.

443
00:32:17.519 --> 00:32:18.839
Look up TARDIS Wiki.

444
00:32:18.900 --> 00:32:20.579
But I just remember seeing the...

445
00:32:20.579 --> 00:32:25.079
Because I watched the cartoon version and like, which is a really effective cartoon.

446
00:32:25.380 --> 00:32:25.980
It's pretty good.

447
00:32:26.039 --> 00:32:27.299
Really atmospheric.

448
00:32:27.359 --> 00:32:34.079
It's, you know, very limited animation, but it's, it's got an art style that's really interesting and it's kind of, but also it's got a fan eye.

449
00:32:34.140 --> 00:32:42.660
So when they reanimate the bit at the start of part three, which is the sideman getting off the bed, they even give the hospital bed, the same little wobble.

450
00:32:42.720 --> 00:32:45.420
Yeah, the Simon comes off the end of part two.

451
00:32:45.480 --> 00:32:46.920
I mean, they're very heavy.

452
00:32:46.980 --> 00:32:47.819
They're made of metal.

453
00:32:47.880 --> 00:32:49.380
That bed's not going to really stand by.

454
00:32:49.440 --> 00:32:56.039
I do find it interesting, though, that they've managed to infiltrate the base and then they need to do that to the humans rather than just to full.

455
00:32:56.279 --> 00:33:02.880
Well, we've got to. why don't we just have all of them just walk in and blast everybody and then get hold of the graviton, but I guess you have got no story.

456
00:33:02.940 --> 00:33:08.339
If you do that, you were talking about, you know, having a conversation and they have that conversation where they say, no, we're not afraid.

457
00:33:08.400 --> 00:33:15.180
We just want to, what was it, eliminate things that are dangerous, which I thought was a very interesting comment.

458
00:33:15.240 --> 00:33:17.400
Because that's the thing is why are they here?

459
00:33:17.460 --> 00:33:18.299
Right.

460
00:33:18.359 --> 00:33:22.019
And we have to rule out revenge as a reason because that's an emotion.

461
00:33:22.140 --> 00:33:25.500
And so it just becomes their eliminating something dangerous.

462
00:33:25.559 --> 00:33:31.259
In which case, would a version of this where it was the ice warriors work?

463
00:33:31.319 --> 00:33:32.519
Do you know what I mean?

464
00:33:32.579 --> 00:33:33.599
It just doesn't matter who that is.

465
00:33:33.660 --> 00:33:34.500
This is what you were saying earlier.

466
00:33:34.559 --> 00:33:37.799
The fact that they become, they're now robots rather than creatures.

467
00:33:37.859 --> 00:33:42.420
They occupy the same space as things like the yeti and the ice warriors going forward.

468
00:33:42.480 --> 00:33:49.980
So in any of those stories, if you take out the backstory to the creatures, what they actually do in the plot is completely interchangeable.

469
00:33:50.039 --> 00:33:54.000
It could be the cybermen in the underground in Webber fear.

470
00:33:54.059 --> 00:33:58.500
And in fact, we get that 5 stories late up there in the sewers in the invasion.

471
00:33:58.619 --> 00:34:05.819
But it's the moment where they play space adventure over the yeti and you think it really doesn't matter, does it?

472
00:34:05.880 --> 00:34:09.059
It doesn't matter which one of these 3 monsters we have this week.

473
00:34:09.119 --> 00:34:11.219
Oh, it's the music that we have here.

474
00:34:11.219 --> 00:34:12.719
That's replay.

475
00:34:12.780 --> 00:34:14.639
And they're going, what?

476
00:34:14.699 --> 00:34:16.980
Yes, no, when I watch the video and going, what?

477
00:34:17.039 --> 00:34:18.780
That is the cyberman music. cannot do this.

478
00:34:18.900 --> 00:34:19.980
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

479
00:34:20.039 --> 00:34:22.980
But I mean, it precisely is because it doesn't matter who they are.

480
00:34:23.039 --> 00:34:31.440
And that is, that's a problem because it makes Doctor Who so much more functional and so much less one wondrous so much less interesting.

481
00:34:31.500 --> 00:34:44.880
And, you know, next year we'll get, you know, the enemy of the world and that's not this and that's super strange and all sorts of ways, like hugely unpredictable and amazing.

482
00:34:44.940 --> 00:34:49.860
It's not quite what you would do in the heart and era, and it's not quite what you do in series 6.

483
00:34:49.920 --> 00:34:57.000
So what I'm hearing you saying is that when Doctor Who does a formula, it's good and when it reacts against the formula, it's good.

484
00:34:57.059 --> 00:35:04.380
Well, no, what I what I'm saying is that I think that I do think that the formula is overwhelmingly not good.

485
00:35:04.440 --> 00:35:04.800
Yeah.

486
00:35:04.860 --> 00:35:06.960
See, I would disagree.

487
00:35:07.019 --> 00:35:10.320
I think it's by giving it a kind of repetition.

488
00:35:10.380 --> 00:35:13.559
A, you get kids who love to see the same thing every week.

489
00:35:13.619 --> 00:35:13.980
Sure.

490
00:35:13.980 --> 00:35:14.639
That's right.

491
00:35:14.699 --> 00:35:24.960
And can I just say, the sidemen become a force in the program now, not because even though they've had all of their individual, all of the things that made them interesting, they're for the story stripped away.

492
00:35:25.019 --> 00:35:25.980
It's the repetition.

493
00:35:26.039 --> 00:35:28.500
They're there 4 times in the Troughton era.

494
00:35:28.559 --> 00:35:29.460
Kids remember that.

495
00:35:29.519 --> 00:35:30.239
Sorry to go on.

496
00:35:30.300 --> 00:35:39.840
And yeah, but so you get the repetition, but also one thing that you have when you tell the same stories again and again and again is you can spend time on character development.

497
00:35:39.900 --> 00:35:47.639
You can spend time, you know, building up the people in the base because you go, well, how are we making this different to the last time we did this?

498
00:35:47.699 --> 00:35:54.000
And so you start to get nuanced and you get interesting things happening with the characters.

499
00:35:54.059 --> 00:36:07.079
And I don't know that the show would have survived as long as it has without that period of, let's do the same thing, every story and really work on making the people interesting.

500
00:36:07.139 --> 00:36:13.619
So, I mean, I guess the best example of that next year is going to be the ice warriors, isn't it?

501
00:36:13.739 --> 00:36:20.099
Where you've got the love triangle between Clint, Penley, Clint, Penley, and the computer.

502
00:36:20.460 --> 00:36:22.440
And miscarriage.

503
00:36:22.500 --> 00:36:24.360
The computer says no.

504
00:36:24.420 --> 00:36:27.480
And store or whatever his name is.

505
00:36:27.539 --> 00:36:28.800
It's a polycule, really, right?

506
00:36:28.860 --> 00:36:30.059
I love triangle.

507
00:36:30.119 --> 00:36:34.139
But those characters are interesting, but it is still fairly basic.

508
00:36:34.199 --> 00:36:37.320
It's not sophisticated drama in any way.

509
00:36:37.380 --> 00:36:38.639
It's not that interesting.

510
00:36:38.699 --> 00:36:40.800
Yeah, the characters are always...

511
00:36:40.860 --> 00:36:41.940
I mean, it's good.

512
00:36:41.940 --> 00:36:45.239
And, you know, like, obviously, Miss Garrett is fantastic.

513
00:36:45.300 --> 00:36:54.300
Like and all of that sort of stuff going on in the base is pretty good, but it just like now, do you know what I mean?

514
00:36:54.360 --> 00:37:01.199
Like perhaps at the time, perhaps for the child audience, but now I just find them a little bit of a slog and not.

515
00:37:01.199 --> 00:37:02.400
Maybe you've watched it too many times.

516
00:37:02.519 --> 00:37:03.599
Maybe.

517
00:37:03.599 --> 00:37:06.059
But, you know, it's just the 1st time.

518
00:37:06.119 --> 00:37:08.099
Yeah, this is the 1st proper thing.

519
00:37:08.159 --> 00:37:11.099
Also, like, because I've watched the underwater menace before this.

520
00:37:11.159 --> 00:37:12.480
I was like, oh, wow.

521
00:37:12.539 --> 00:37:15.059
This is so much, it feels so much more streamlined.

522
00:37:15.119 --> 00:37:15.719
Yeah, yeah.

523
00:37:15.719 --> 00:37:22.860
Like, you've got a complete through line from episode to episode instead of like whatever was going on the previous...

524
00:37:22.860 --> 00:37:31.380
You've gone from fish people outfits, which are very sub, the 1st cybermen, to these, which look metallic and robotic, even if they are people.

525
00:37:31.500 --> 00:37:33.119
And they have shoelaces, and that's fine.

526
00:37:33.239 --> 00:37:35.760
And also their shoes going to stay on.

527
00:37:35.820 --> 00:37:37.139
They're streamlined.

528
00:37:37.199 --> 00:37:38.159
They look consistent.

529
00:37:38.219 --> 00:37:38.820
They look good.

530
00:37:38.880 --> 00:37:40.500
They're not held together by sticky tape.

531
00:37:40.559 --> 00:37:40.980
Yeah.

532
00:37:40.980 --> 00:37:42.840
You know, not that I'm harping back on that.

533
00:37:42.900 --> 00:37:45.300
But, and I love the original side of them.

534
00:37:45.300 --> 00:38:02.219
But, you know, they're streamlined, the chess plates, you know, they're much smaller and compact, and the helmet and the voice, just, and the way the mouth works, it just all adds to the, the horror of when they get the acetone spray. and they start foaming up.

535
00:38:02.280 --> 00:38:07.079
Like it is a gruesome, terrifying moment.

536
00:38:07.139 --> 00:38:09.239
It's actually pretty brutal isn't it?

537
00:38:09.300 --> 00:38:09.780
Yeah.

538
00:38:09.840 --> 00:38:17.159
One of the things that struck me is that in that whole thing, the audience has to have a plastic spray bottle explained to them.

539
00:38:17.219 --> 00:38:20.699
So it must be a reasonably recent thing. plastic was very new.

540
00:38:20.760 --> 00:38:25.380
Like, it's why the fish gills in the previous story were plastic because it plastic was not a thing.

541
00:38:25.440 --> 00:38:30.360
Like, even in the 70s with, you know, the autons inhabiting plastic.

542
00:38:30.420 --> 00:38:37.559
That's when plastic started to become more of a thing, it was more mass produced, but, Yeah, it's a very new and exciting.

543
00:38:37.619 --> 00:38:41.760
I mean, technically, the acetone would have eaten through the plastic, but yeah, that's right.

544
00:38:41.820 --> 00:38:42.539
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

545
00:38:42.599 --> 00:38:44.760
Yeah, no one really thought of that, but yes.

546
00:38:44.820 --> 00:38:48.840
Todd said that he likes the version of the sidemen and the 10th player.

547
00:38:48.900 --> 00:38:58.199
So do I. I think I prefer them to this version, but from a body horror point of view, yeah, the human hand, the uncanny valleyness and the grotesqueness of what they are.

548
00:38:58.260 --> 00:39:02.820
But there's so many things about this version of the seidemen that I like as well.

549
00:39:02.880 --> 00:39:10.139
So this story develops the fact that they are an army of monsters on the march, which you don't get previously.

550
00:39:10.199 --> 00:39:13.440
Even the Daleks refer to each other as individuals.

551
00:39:13.500 --> 00:39:20.219
They speak to each other as individuals, whereas sidemen here don't speak to each other in any way except to, you know, how's our plan going?

552
00:39:20.460 --> 00:39:24.780
And so they're kind of an army and they're used as cannon fodder by the good guys.

553
00:39:24.840 --> 00:39:26.159
It develops that idea of them.

554
00:39:26.219 --> 00:39:30.300
But they've also become, in terms of the series, a mythic force.

555
00:39:30.360 --> 00:39:35.760
And so you get Hobson talking about the sidemen, it's these kind of ancient things, mythology.

556
00:39:35.820 --> 00:39:37.139
Children know about them.

557
00:39:37.199 --> 00:39:38.699
Yeah, from 1986.

558
00:39:38.880 --> 00:39:43.739
They also resemble the Phantom Piper, which is kind of something from Jamie's clans.

559
00:39:43.739 --> 00:39:45.719
It's so good.

560
00:39:45.719 --> 00:39:46.440
That's right.

561
00:39:46.500 --> 00:39:53.699
And when you talk about it, you then get the close-up of the sidemen looking like this grotesque kind of creature from, you know, urban legend.

562
00:39:53.820 --> 00:39:58.559
It's that brilliant moment where Trouton doesn't dismiss it as superstition.

563
00:39:58.619 --> 00:40:04.079
It says it's still important because Jamie believes it, which I think is really, really good.

564
00:40:04.139 --> 00:40:09.480
And you're right, it does add to that sort of mythic thing about them. they also keep their strength.

565
00:40:09.539 --> 00:40:11.159
They're frightening.

566
00:40:11.219 --> 00:40:13.679
Because when they pick people up.

567
00:40:13.800 --> 00:40:14.820
Oh, yeah, yeah.

568
00:40:14.820 --> 00:40:16.019
When they pick people up handling.

569
00:40:16.139 --> 00:40:17.460
It's just under one arm.

570
00:40:17.519 --> 00:40:18.960
Yes, it's under one arm.

571
00:40:19.019 --> 00:40:21.420
Like, and you just hear going, wow, they are that strong.

572
00:40:21.480 --> 00:40:24.960
Even the person in the bed looks, you know, quite big, not small.

573
00:40:25.019 --> 00:40:27.239
It's absolutely toe curling, I think.

574
00:40:27.360 --> 00:40:34.019
And so even though they've lost some of what made them distinctive and they've lost their elegance, which they had from the 10th planet.

575
00:40:34.079 --> 00:40:36.539
It's instructive the way that they were thought of now.

576
00:40:36.599 --> 00:40:41.460
Again, if you go back to the novelisation of the Sidemen and Jerry Davis, he described them like this.

577
00:40:41.519 --> 00:40:50.400
He said, like human monsters, down through all the ages of earth, they became aware of the lack of love and feeling in their lives and substituted another goal, power.

578
00:40:50.460 --> 00:40:51.239
Wow.

579
00:40:52.199 --> 00:40:52.559
Yeah.

580
00:40:52.619 --> 00:40:56.699
And so that is a good template for a monster going forward.

581
00:40:56.760 --> 00:41:02.579
And the subtext of it as well, that kind of where we're going to pick up men and take them off and convert them.

582
00:41:02.639 --> 00:41:04.679
Like, obviously they're terrified of gay people.

583
00:41:07.980 --> 00:41:10.440
Simon, the ultimate gay.

584
00:41:10.559 --> 00:41:13.260
They want control and domination.

585
00:41:13.559 --> 00:41:20.099
I mean, they're wearing rubber suits. come on Just because they're sprayed silver doesn't mean they're not kinky.

586
00:41:29.159 --> 00:41:30.480
And it allows the doctor to change.

587
00:41:30.539 --> 00:41:42.300
It allows the doctor to now become the character who says there are some corners of the universe who bred the most terrible things, things which must be fought, and which the novelisation ads, things which must be fought to the death.

588
00:41:43.079 --> 00:41:45.780
The way he delivers that is so good.

589
00:41:45.840 --> 00:41:48.119
I think. such a moment, isn't it?

590
00:41:48.179 --> 00:41:48.840
It's really good.

591
00:41:48.900 --> 00:41:50.880
And there's another moment, I think, too.

592
00:41:50.940 --> 00:41:59.639
And in our 1st episode of 500 year diary, we saw that in a way Trouton becomes the doctor because the Daleks recognise him.

593
00:41:59.699 --> 00:42:02.099
The cybermen recognise him.

594
00:42:02.159 --> 00:42:04.440
You're known to us and you to me.

595
00:42:04.500 --> 00:42:07.079
It's a really, really good exchange, I think.

596
00:42:07.139 --> 00:42:09.599
I think it's great that they do recognise him.

597
00:42:09.599 --> 00:42:18.960
And that's signposted because we talked last episode about the fact that the Daleks do not recognise the doctor in the Dalek invasion birth, which I thought was not...

598
00:42:19.019 --> 00:42:22.920
It was a mistake, but it was strange because from that point on, they do.

599
00:42:22.920 --> 00:42:23.460
They do.

600
00:42:23.519 --> 00:42:27.360
So having that recognition was great.

601
00:42:27.360 --> 00:42:39.059
And also, Polly recognising the cyber, it's really, it's really interesting the way it shot because she barely sees them and then she sort of cries into the doctor's shoulder and says the side moment, it sort of muffled, like she just throws it into the dialogue.

602
00:42:39.119 --> 00:42:40.079
The button came out.

603
00:42:40.139 --> 00:42:41.340
You could miss it.

604
00:42:41.400 --> 00:42:44.579
Like, so then it's like, okay, we're trying to reinforce that.

605
00:42:44.639 --> 00:42:49.320
These are the cybermen, because they look different from 4 months ago and then you get a leap in the ratings.

606
00:42:49.380 --> 00:42:56.699
I think from 8.one to 8.9 suddenly this story compared to the last 2 stories which fell back to 7s and 6s.

607
00:42:56.760 --> 00:42:57.599
It suddenly...

608
00:42:57.599 --> 00:42:58.440
It's solidified.

609
00:42:58.440 --> 00:43:00.539
It's solidified the audience and we're away.

610
00:43:00.599 --> 00:43:02.219
Can I ask a question?

611
00:43:02.340 --> 00:43:06.659
The other Cyberman in story, a new design.

612
00:43:06.719 --> 00:43:20.880
And the reason that I'm asking this is that last week we saw that there was a conversation about how the Daleks looked different from the 1st time that they appeared, there's no conversation about that here.

613
00:43:20.940 --> 00:43:23.760
No one...

614
00:43:23.760 --> 00:43:29.760
Polly immediately recognises them, even though they look very little like the side men she encountered on snowcapped bays.

615
00:43:29.820 --> 00:43:40.019
So is the idea that what the show has done is has said this was our bad initial design of the cybermen and the sidemen are going to look like this going forward.

616
00:43:40.139 --> 00:43:42.599
The sidemen have always looked like this viewer.

617
00:43:42.659 --> 00:43:43.619
Yes, that's right.

618
00:43:43.679 --> 00:43:45.539
Is that how we to understand it?

619
00:43:45.539 --> 00:44:08.519
Because think about what happens in the new series, when Russell brings the cybermen back, he brings them back and gives them a new origin so that they can look different and those cybermen are sort of generally used, then Moffat goes, no, actually, all of the cybermen that we saw on screen, all really existed, and you're kind of going to see them.

620
00:44:08.579 --> 00:44:10.559
And it's the same with the Daleks.

621
00:44:10.679 --> 00:44:16.139
When Russell brings the Daleks back, we only ever see the new brass Daleks that he creates.

622
00:44:16.199 --> 00:44:22.079
Moffatt goes, no, all of the daleks always look different and they that that was a real thing.

623
00:44:22.139 --> 00:44:27.840
And the classic series takes the approach that Russell takes, yeah?

624
00:44:27.900 --> 00:44:31.800
We never go back and see a previous cyberman design.

625
00:44:31.860 --> 00:44:40.980
And so I think the idea is that we're supposed to feel that this is what the cybermen look like and no character ever remarks on how they look different from how they did last time.

626
00:44:41.039 --> 00:44:42.599
I think it's a good point.

627
00:44:42.659 --> 00:44:51.360
But there is hesitation in her voice and I think she's trying to convince herself, yes, it's a cyberman, like when she says, yes, the cyberman and then it's sort of taken on board.

628
00:44:51.420 --> 00:44:53.820
So, I don't know, I guess it's a little too fan of me.

629
00:44:53.880 --> 00:44:59.280
I'm quite happy to say, yeah, no, I was the old ones and they've just updated and upgraded.

630
00:44:59.340 --> 00:45:02.880
And Polly recognised them as, oh, yes, this assignment.

631
00:45:02.940 --> 00:45:04.440
Oh, yes, it is the cyber.

632
00:45:04.619 --> 00:45:05.519
And then we just accept it.

633
00:45:05.639 --> 00:45:10.380
I think that point would stand if the sidemen always looked like they do in the moon base going forwards.

634
00:45:10.440 --> 00:45:22.320
But the fact that they've had this huge upgrade in their design in the real world gives costume designers going forward, permission to keep changing them and to make the, whereas fiddling with them.

635
00:45:22.320 --> 00:45:24.000
That's right, fiddling with them.

636
00:45:24.000 --> 00:45:26.820
But that's not what happens to the Daleks.

637
00:45:26.880 --> 00:45:27.960
The dark.

638
00:45:28.079 --> 00:45:32.639
Right up until the very misconceived redesign that they're given in victory of the Daleks.

639
00:45:32.760 --> 00:45:36.179
And the other one that they're given in revolution of the Daleks as well.

640
00:45:36.239 --> 00:45:38.579
Also, misconceived, okay?

641
00:45:38.579 --> 00:45:39.719
So, the squished, darling.

642
00:45:39.780 --> 00:45:40.260
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

643
00:45:40.380 --> 00:45:44.400
They retain exactly the same silhouette, even though they're built slightly.

644
00:45:44.460 --> 00:45:45.000
Yeah.

645
00:45:45.059 --> 00:45:45.420
Yeah.

646
00:45:45.480 --> 00:45:50.099
So I think that that's one of the big differences between the Daleks and the sidemen.

647
00:45:50.159 --> 00:45:56.280
And one of the reasons I think the cybermen are always just kind of, oh, it's the cybermen, rather than the dialect.

648
00:45:56.760 --> 00:45:59.820
Compared to how you feel about the Daleks returning.

649
00:45:59.880 --> 00:46:01.440
I like something.

650
00:46:01.440 --> 00:46:08.280
I, for me, because, you know, in my other podcast, I'm always trying to explain why things happen in Doctor Who.

651
00:46:08.340 --> 00:46:08.639
Yeah.

652
00:46:08.639 --> 00:46:10.380
For me, hiding to nothing.

653
00:46:10.739 --> 00:46:19.980
Which is, so for me, it's the 10th planet Cybermen are equipped for going to another Earth.

654
00:46:20.039 --> 00:46:20.639
Yeah.

655
00:46:20.639 --> 00:46:22.380
They don't need too much.

656
00:46:22.440 --> 00:46:29.400
Like they've developed enough to work on the surface of their planet without having to have too much oxygen and stuff and they're fine in the cold.

657
00:46:29.460 --> 00:46:31.800
These cybermen are going to the moon.

658
00:46:31.860 --> 00:46:33.539
Yeah, so they have to be able to walk in.

659
00:46:33.599 --> 00:46:35.699
Yeah, they have to, so they need a heavier boot.

660
00:46:35.760 --> 00:46:39.599
They need a more a better filtration system on the chest.

661
00:46:39.659 --> 00:46:42.599
They need a bit more protection because there's still organic material inside.

662
00:46:42.659 --> 00:46:47.579
So they need this more robust suit.

663
00:46:47.639 --> 00:46:51.960
Yeah, so the universe reason for their design is that they've had to be upgraded for the elements.

664
00:46:52.019 --> 00:46:54.179
Yeah, they've gone, well, we're going to the moon.

665
00:46:54.239 --> 00:47:02.880
And that's why they now have this, they can't deal with radiation because they've had to make some affordances to deal with the vacuum.

666
00:47:02.940 --> 00:47:05.760
So it kind of means, oh, now we can't go and do that thing.

667
00:47:05.820 --> 00:47:10.320
We would have been able to do if we had our cloth masks on, which was go and do the radiation business.

668
00:47:10.380 --> 00:47:17.099
They've, you know, there's always a give and take in design where you're like, oh, well, that's, we've made ourselves a stupid weakness now.

669
00:47:17.519 --> 00:47:19.440
I like that, yeah.

670
00:47:19.739 --> 00:47:25.739
I mean, it is, though, I think, telling that there isn't a look. you know what I mean?

671
00:47:25.800 --> 00:47:27.239
handles for ears.

672
00:47:27.840 --> 00:47:28.199
That's it.

673
00:47:28.260 --> 00:47:30.659
I'm I miss the chest units.

674
00:47:30.719 --> 00:47:31.079
Yeah.

675
00:47:31.079 --> 00:47:33.599
Like when Russell State Davis got rid of the chest units.

676
00:47:33.659 --> 00:47:43.380
I was like, oh, I always liked a bit of, you know, I mean, the things that he said, I think the things that he said were, because I think he just let that be designed to me.

677
00:47:43.440 --> 00:47:49.380
And he said that it needed the teardrop, which 1st appears in wheel and space, and he's clearly...

678
00:47:49.380 --> 00:47:50.880
I was also crying during the wheel and space.

679
00:47:50.940 --> 00:47:54.000
But it's clearly just there so the actors can see out the mask.

680
00:47:54.059 --> 00:47:54.659
Correct.

681
00:47:54.719 --> 00:47:56.699
Um, and...

682
00:47:56.699 --> 00:47:59.880
But there were nostrils. extra nostrils.

683
00:47:59.940 --> 00:48:08.039
And I think that this Cyberman look that we get here is probably the best one, this one through Wheeling Space.

684
00:48:08.099 --> 00:48:12.420
I think once they get the big heads, then, you know, I'm done.

685
00:48:12.960 --> 00:48:16.320
Something very scary about the invasion cyberman.

686
00:48:16.380 --> 00:48:16.800
Yeah.

687
00:48:16.860 --> 00:48:25.079
Yeah, I mean, I think they're good, but they're in a great story, but I do like the more sort of streamlined ones that we get in the early 60s.

688
00:48:25.139 --> 00:48:26.760
And the little mouth flap.

689
00:48:26.820 --> 00:48:27.239
Open.

690
00:48:27.300 --> 00:48:28.440
Yeah, that's awesome.

691
00:48:28.500 --> 00:48:40.380
Well, I mean, that's a little bit like, which I remember us regarding as ridiculous years and years ago, and now we think is great, where the actor was opening their mouth. and the words were coming out in the 10th planet.

692
00:48:40.440 --> 00:48:40.800
Yeah, yeah.

693
00:48:40.860 --> 00:48:42.300
I was always as a kid.

694
00:48:42.360 --> 00:48:43.980
I was amazed.

695
00:48:44.039 --> 00:48:46.260
Simon had these, this stream, I looked.

696
00:48:46.320 --> 00:48:51.000
I always thought the Simon would look like Revenge of the Simon, the big heads, yeah, yeah.

697
00:48:51.059 --> 00:48:53.880
And I didn't realise that it was like they looked different.

698
00:48:53.940 --> 00:49:02.460
A lot of that would have been the cover illustrations of the novelisations because for this story and Tomb of the Cyberman, they look like the invasion and eventually Cyberman Cyberman.

699
00:49:02.519 --> 00:49:09.000
I like the fact that they continually change and upgrade, even, you know, sometimes it might be a step backward.

700
00:49:09.059 --> 00:49:09.659
I do like that.

701
00:49:09.719 --> 00:49:16.440
I mean, I have to say that one of the things about ascension of the side men that I disliked was the return of the big giant head side man.

702
00:49:16.739 --> 00:49:19.260
I thought we'd seen the back of them.

703
00:49:19.320 --> 00:49:20.219
Oh, I love that.

704
00:49:20.280 --> 00:49:21.360
I thought it was fantastic.

705
00:49:21.420 --> 00:49:25.800
That was your biggest problem with that episode. not my biggest problem with that episode.

706
00:49:40.920 --> 00:49:42.780
This is just such an important story.

707
00:49:42.840 --> 00:49:56.820
I don't think it works on all levels, and I think the sidemen have lost something, which was important and interesting, which was set up, but I think this has secured the future of the program, this story because it brazenly sets out to scare.

708
00:49:56.880 --> 00:50:06.840
Previously, only Terry Nation had ever used words in episode titles like Terror and Fear, whereas going forwards, God, who will always be this.

709
00:50:06.900 --> 00:50:08.639
It will be a horror of Fang Rock.

710
00:50:08.699 --> 00:50:12.360
It will be the terror of the Autons, the curse of Paladon.

711
00:50:12.420 --> 00:50:18.960
And I think it may be a workmanlike production, but workmanlike indicates that there is a base level of competence.

712
00:50:19.019 --> 00:50:22.260
And that's what this story achieves going forward.

713
00:50:22.320 --> 00:50:26.400
It sets a template and says Doctor Who will never be worse than this going forward.

714
00:50:26.460 --> 00:50:30.780
It will always be able to achieve what this story achieves. if they put in the effort.

715
00:50:30.840 --> 00:50:33.480
However...

716
00:50:33.599 --> 00:50:37.139
Sometimes they don't put in the effort, and that is a problem.

717
00:50:37.199 --> 00:50:40.380
But you know, up until this point, you'd be lurching from a boring historical.

718
00:50:40.440 --> 00:50:44.039
Let's say the highlanders, the massacre.

719
00:50:44.099 --> 00:50:51.179
Yeah, mascot, very much. to sort of weird, crappy B movie sci-fi, like the underwater menace.

720
00:50:51.239 --> 00:50:56.280
This is just an important story to say Doctor Who will not be that again.

721
00:51:18.480 --> 00:51:21.059
Well, that's all the time we have for this week.

722
00:51:21.119 --> 00:51:30.360
We'll be back next week to stare in slack jawed wonder as Doctor Who attempts to make green lizard men from Mars a thing in the seeds of death.

723
00:51:30.420 --> 00:51:48.119
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts, and you can keep up with us on our website, 500yearDiary.com, or you'll find our social media links, as well as our links to all of our other podcasts, including our other Doctor Who podcasts, flights for entirety, and the 2nd great and bountiful human empire.

724
00:51:48.840 --> 00:51:53.039
Until next time, have a couple of poly cocktails on us.

725
00:51:53.099 --> 00:51:55.440
Maybe take it easy on the acetone.

726
00:51:55.500 --> 00:51:58.139
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

727
00:51:58.199 --> 00:51:58.559
Good night.

728
00:51:58.619 --> 00:51:59.159
Good night.

729
00:51:59.219 --> 00:52:00.239
See you soon.

730
00:52:12.300 --> 00:52:17.639
That was 500-year diary, starring Todd B. will be Nathan Bottomley, Peter Group, with St.

731
00:52:17.639 --> 00:52:18.239
Adam Richard.

732
00:52:18.300 --> 00:52:21.179
The theme was composed by Cameron Lamb.

733
00:52:21.239 --> 00:52:27.840
This episode, the show as we know it, was recorded on the 23rd of March 2025 and released on the 4th of May.

734
00:52:27.900 --> 00:52:38.099
And on this week's episode of The Second Great and Bountiful Human Empire, we'll be talking about the return of Ruby Sunday and Unit to Doctor Who in Lucky Day.

735
00:52:38.159 --> 00:52:42.480
So head on over to greatandbountiful.com and subscribe.

736
00:52:55.980 --> 00:52:57.659
What do you think?

737
00:52:57.719 --> 00:52:58.860
Yeah, that's great.

738
00:52:58.860 --> 00:53:05.039
No, I totally utterly agree with you, because next story, we have Petritron's face in the opening credits.

739
00:53:05.099 --> 00:53:17.340
Like, it's suddenly, I, so we'll talk about this when we record the next thing, but just like, it's the, so the seeds of death.

740
00:53:17.400 --> 00:53:20.820
I just, even the music's is improved, isn't it?

741
00:53:20.940 --> 00:53:21.840
Oh great.

742
00:53:21.900 --> 00:53:23.760
So we improve the title music.

743
00:53:23.820 --> 00:53:24.659
Yeah.

744
00:53:24.719 --> 00:53:27.000
Did we improve the title, the title music?

745
00:53:27.059 --> 00:53:28.800
Yeah, it starts with the little tinkling.

746
00:53:29.099 --> 00:53:29.639
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

747
00:53:29.699 --> 00:53:33.360
So it's a little bit more complicated, that new title sequence is so much better.

748
00:53:33.420 --> 00:53:44.400
Well, I think we'll start next time talking about why it's just because that's a sort of Simon, you kind of discussion about like because production.

749
00:53:44.460 --> 00:53:44.820
Yeah.

750
00:53:44.880 --> 00:53:57.179
Well, you know, like when I was watching Darlic Invasion of Earth for this, initially I just put it on the big, like, you know, full screen on my monitor and it was just not an enjoyable experience.

751
00:53:57.239 --> 00:54:01.079
So it's much better in a smaller window.

752
00:54:01.260 --> 00:54:02.760
He is.

753
00:54:02.760 --> 00:54:04.440
That's how we watched.

754
00:54:04.860 --> 00:54:16.619
I remember watching Doctor Who on a tiny black and white TV that I had in my bedroom, like that's like even the baker era I watched in black and white on a tiny television.

755
00:54:16.679 --> 00:54:24.059
I had like an inch, like a little, like a little one where you had to tune into the different channels using a dial.

756
00:54:24.119 --> 00:54:30.300
This story is made for that. story is made for that little black and white images on a little TV.

757
00:54:30.360 --> 00:54:30.900
Yes.

758
00:54:30.900 --> 00:54:32.639
We said on Darlic Invasion Earth last week.

759
00:54:32.699 --> 00:54:42.179
I said that the Daleks are a little bit lost in those big panoramas, out on location in London, watching them on a small screen in 405 line.

760
00:54:42.239 --> 00:54:43.619
They just don't have a lot of impact.

761
00:54:43.679 --> 00:54:50.039
This story is made and designed to give the sidemen that impact on the whole big face of a sidemen just suddenly.

762
00:54:50.039 --> 00:54:50.639
Yeah, yeah.

763
00:54:50.699 --> 00:54:53.400
You're like, no, they're starting at the end of the episode.

764
00:54:53.460 --> 00:54:57.780
It recently sets out to scare and that's a new thing for Doctor Who.

765
00:54:57.900 --> 00:55:03.539
The one the is it Cliffhanger to episode 3 or two, two, where it gets out of the bed.

766
00:55:03.599 --> 00:55:04.860
It's two, isn't it?

767
00:55:04.920 --> 00:55:06.119
So quick.

768
00:55:06.119 --> 00:55:07.019
So good.

769
00:55:07.079 --> 00:55:09.300
Even watching it now gives me the willies.

770
00:55:09.360 --> 00:55:10.619
Yeah, yeah, it's so great.

771
00:55:10.619 --> 00:55:12.179
Much like that porn hub.

772
00:55:12.239 --> 00:55:13.440
Can't agree.

773
00:55:13.500 --> 00:55:15.420
Speaking of willies from porn.

774
00:55:15.780 --> 00:55:18.960
It's just, it's so linear.

775
00:55:19.019 --> 00:55:20.340
Like it's so linear.

776
00:55:20.400 --> 00:55:21.119
Do you know what I mean?

777
00:55:21.179 --> 00:55:24.000
Like, it's not like the plot isn't very interesting.

778
00:55:24.059 --> 00:55:25.920
It's just, you know, like it's oak.

779
00:55:25.980 --> 00:55:27.360
That's definitely God explores.

780
00:55:27.420 --> 00:55:29.639
It's a coat hangout for horror.

781
00:55:29.699 --> 00:55:31.019
Yeah, it's a realistic thing.

782
00:55:31.079 --> 00:55:31.679
Yeah, exactly.

783
00:55:31.739 --> 00:55:36.539
But it's kind of a big plate of cake vehicle landing on this.

784
00:55:36.659 --> 00:55:41.219
I mean, look, being able to repair a hole in the wall with a coffee tray.

785
00:55:41.280 --> 00:55:42.360
Well, that's awesome.

786
00:55:42.420 --> 00:55:45.059
That's absolutely Doctor Who. hilariously fun.

787
00:55:45.119 --> 00:55:46.079
But yes, I love it.

788
00:55:46.139 --> 00:55:51.900
And that's Doctor Who. hilariously fun. all, you know, all the air's getting sucked out and then, you know, then it's not.

789
00:55:51.960 --> 00:55:55.199
Like, I think the science for that is pretty strong as well.

790
00:55:55.260 --> 00:56:00.599
I love the kind of like moment of hesitation of like, yeah, I'll turn the coffee over.

791
00:56:00.659 --> 00:56:02.400
It's always like a...

792
00:56:02.519 --> 00:56:03.960
On the one hand, we have to breathe.

793
00:56:04.019 --> 00:56:06.539
But on the other hand...

794
00:56:06.599 --> 00:56:13.380
They've actually spent 5 minutes of their precious time at Ealing shooting the cutaway of the train.

795
00:56:13.559 --> 00:56:15.179
It's amazing.

796
00:56:15.239 --> 00:56:26.760
Because that's the other thing, like the special effects and the ability to stop recording and all that now compared to a year ago or even 6 months ago. is really evident in terms of the late 60s product television production.

797
00:56:26.820 --> 00:56:35.039
And the gravitron, like looking like the script wants it to look so that you are directing it at a thing.

798
00:56:35.099 --> 00:56:39.000
Because the other thing is the Simon here vulnerable to gravity.

799
00:56:39.059 --> 00:56:42.659
And you kind of go, well, like everyone...

800
00:56:42.719 --> 00:56:43.619
Do you remember the thing?

801
00:56:43.739 --> 00:56:53.639
Do you remember the thing in Silver Nemesis, where Lady Painfort has gold arrows dipped in poison and at the same and go, oh, we can't handle that.

802
00:56:53.820 --> 00:56:54.840
Their gold will run away.

803
00:56:54.900 --> 00:56:59.280
And so the Nazis go and wheel attack because we're not vulnerable to gold.

804
00:56:59.340 --> 00:57:00.599
And he comes out.

805
00:57:00.659 --> 00:57:04.320
You are also... you are... arrows dicked in poison.

806
00:57:05.639 --> 00:57:09.179
And I thought that that was that, you know, gravity.

807
00:57:09.239 --> 00:57:16.980
It turns out when you direct the graviton at the cybermen, they fly up into the air, which is what would happen with literally any physical object.

808
00:57:17.099 --> 00:57:19.079
Substitute the ice.

809
00:57:19.139 --> 00:57:21.360
I would have loved to have seen the yeti.

810
00:57:21.420 --> 00:57:24.179
A nice warrior, the big headed bubble headed ones.

811
00:57:24.239 --> 00:57:25.380
The big eyes.

812
00:57:25.559 --> 00:57:27.119
So bad.

813
00:57:27.179 --> 00:57:31.559
I'm going to talk about mention you because you say you call them pumpkin.

814
00:57:31.619 --> 00:57:33.179
No, pineapple headed one.

815
00:57:33.239 --> 00:57:35.460
You know, you know how they've got like pumpkin heads.

816
00:57:35.519 --> 00:57:36.659
They've got pumpkin head.

817
00:57:36.719 --> 00:57:47.219
They've got like the big one, the big head and the smaller body and it's sort of mismatched suits. and you kind of go, which they're away with after the ice force, but then inexplicably bring back in the background in Monster.

818
00:57:47.280 --> 00:57:47.820
Paladin.

819
00:57:47.880 --> 00:57:49.559
It's there Yeah, yeah.

820
00:57:49.619 --> 00:57:50.579
The pumpkin head?

821
00:57:50.639 --> 00:57:51.179
Pineapple hair.

822
00:57:51.300 --> 00:58:01.800
Whatever you want to call it, I want to just start that episode by saying they are the worst recurring monster in the history of Doctor Who.

823
00:58:01.860 --> 00:58:07.019
They just look stupid. like the fluffy pubes and they're big asses.

824
00:58:07.079 --> 00:58:07.920
Right here.

825
00:58:08.760 --> 00:58:10.739
But you're totally right.

826
00:58:10.800 --> 00:58:13.139
Like, compare them to the cyberman, which you just talked about.

827
00:58:13.199 --> 00:58:16.980
It's like I'm an extremelined and fit and strong.

828
00:58:17.039 --> 00:58:18.900
They look like the future coming up.

829
00:58:18.960 --> 00:58:20.039
I suppose it's been on their heart.

830
00:58:20.519 --> 00:58:21.599
Ask Toya.

831
00:58:21.659 --> 00:58:22.860
What's her name?

832
00:58:22.920 --> 00:58:23.940
Anyway, okay.