The Show as We Know It

Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to 500 year diary. The only Doctor Who podcast now ready to start Operational System 2. Operational System 2 will now begin. I'm Nathan. I'm Adam. I'm Peter. And I'm Todd. It's been 4 months since the doctor 1st met the cyberman and tonight 8100000 people have tuned in to see him do it again. In a story that many of them undoubtedly found eerily familiar. But did that story succeed in creating a thrilling new recurring enemy for the doctor? Let's find out as we discuss the moon base. So, I think that the moon base, just four months after the 10th planet is more or less exactly the same. Discuss, discuss. That's like saying all of Terry Nation's Dalek stories are the same. Oh except they aren't. So let's think about it, right? We have a base with an international crew entirely made up of men. It's in a distant location. What else? We have a group of people who stair helplessly on as a space rocket is deflected off to its certain death. We have cybermen striding across a strange landscape in order to reach the base. We're in constant contact with an authority figure off the base who we have a slightly fractious relationship with. We have an intransigent base commander who we have to deal with. We have an intransigent base commander. You have cybermen in disguise. Yes, and then revealing themselves. I was here all along. Holly or... We kill all the cybermen and then more of them reappear after that. Have they missed anything? It's bigger and it's better, I think. There's also in the 10th planet, you have a person of colour in a really important job, but in this one they're the chef. That's true. got a little bit backwards. Yes, in 4 months. So you think this is bigger and better? I think this is bigger and better. I think there's an important thing here that the moon base is the template. for future Doctor Who. There's a lot of firsts in this story and because we don't necessarily watch Doctor Who in order anymore and we become kind of inured to what happened in Doctor Who, as you went along, that we lose track of the fact that this is new and different and vibrant. Doctor Who obviously has a base under siege formula, and this is where that starts. And I think this is the 1st army of implacable monsters who are kind, you mentioned striding across a barren landscape. This is the 1st story that really does that. And so I think this is Doctor Who going forwards and it's the key turning point in the black and white years. Yeah, it's also like we don't lose the main actor for an entire episode and their lines redistributed. Yeah. I think, I mean, I think that, uh, and I think Santa says this that Troughton's doctor works much better in a base under siege in a way where Hartnell is kind of uncomfortable. And his doctor is sort of super weird, I think, in the 10th planet. That thing where he writes the clue down on the piece of paper and stuff and shows them later. Like it's all just, he doesn't really know what's going on. Also, Hartner was so kind of strident and patrician that when he bumps up against someone else like that, it's kind of you're like well, who am I barracking for here? You're both really annoying. Whereas Patrick Troughton's doctor is so like, oh, no, I'm going to undermine. I'm going to white ant everyone from, you know, by pulling their shoes off. That's what they're... It's a very strange moment. That's what qualified as turning down his performance. It is, because like the previous 3 stories. He'd been quite manic and over the top and dressing in funny outfits. I recently watched the underwater menace, which is the one before this, and it's almost like he's come in contact with Joseph 1st and gone, oh, have I been doing that for 3 books? Bring it down, love. Bring it down. I'm going to be a bit more normal. I want to say that I think this story is as important as the Dalek invasion of Earth. as what we discussed last week, because as Peter said, this is a line in the sand, this production team, over the last year, have been slowly building to this point, we've gotten rid of singular episode titles, we now have much bigger sets that don't look like they're just going to fall apart, except that it did. Of course it did. As you've mentioned on other podcasts, the floor has been raised. Total collapse of a story, which happened last week in terms of production, is not really going to happen again, we might have elements that are a bit dodge, like from bathing caps to little strings that we can see, but the total failure. I don't think is going to happen. And as you've said, we've dismantled the show, as we know it. We're now looking at things set in the near future on alien planets with humans, right, or human descendants, right? Moving forward. Whereas the heart and hear is much more science fantasy set, like sort of the 50s elements of sci-fi. Whereas this, when you look at it, you've got microphones. you've got tape reels, you've got, they're putting the science into the fiction, things that we can identify with, right? And I think, you know, we've had the war machines, we've had the 10th planet, we're sort of building to this, the historicals are now gone. We may have historical settings, right? In a few episodes time, you know, they'll be back in time, but there's an evil to be fought. It's not about being in an historical context. We've just had the regeneration and as you've said, Patrick Charton hasn't been. He's been whatever, and here he suddenly is, right? We've still got the Hartnell opening titles, but they're gone after this. And this is something that we're used to, all of us in this room is that, you know, looking at talk 2 in the 70s, we're used to having change of doctors, change of opening titles, but all of this is just, all this building has all happened. We've also got Jamie who's got nothing to do with the 1st doctor. As Peter said, this is the template moving forward. This is the Doctor Who that we know. Yes, we'll talk about some, this is a bit rough in a few places but generally it's competent and it's what we know to be Doctor Who as opposed to the previous 2 years where Doctor Who has sort of been developing as television's been developed. And it's no surprise that this is based on the proto-template of the 10th planet. Because the 10th planet was the 1st time in 6 months that Doctor Who's ratings rebounded. And I don't think all of that is down to just a new and interesting adversary in the cybermen. I think it was the type of story that they discovered, they could tell well and that the audience took to. I have to say that I think that the base under siege is actually a step backwards and it's slightly regressive. Yeah. I mean, just from the point of view of the shows, like what the show is about. Like the show now becomes about fighting an external force that's trying to break in. But it's hard not to read it. There's some sort of weird cold war thing. And I think that's just a little bit of a shame. And it restricts what Doctor Who can do. And that's not always such a bad thing. The Philip Hinchcliffe here, I think, drastically restricts what Doctor Who can do. And so in its own way, just to pert we. Yeah, and they both raise the floor. you know, like really well. Like they've identified something they can do well. But I mean, the following year is a bit of a grind, isn't it? But I mean, that's the fault of the production team. They found something that worked and then they just leaned into it to death. yeah exactly. Also, if they used it, they found something sparing. Affordable. Like, it's like, if you can immortize the one giant set for 4 episodes and trap everyone in it, then it's like, oh, we don't have to build a new set every week. We don't have to do much exterior filming. We can do a couple of model shots and we're done. I think it's also building on that. This is considered by everyone involved to be the key Cyberman story because not only when it was novelized, it was just novelized as Doctor Who and the Cyberman, it was also, I think like the ninth or the 10th story, to be novelized in the 70s and the 1st Cyberman story. And so I think this was considered the template going forward. I remember reading that book and loving it and it felt like kind of like a science fiction crime book because there was the whole thing with the sugar and you finding out what it was. And then you watch the episode and you're like, oh, it's they just really fall over that. There's no deduction going on. But for some reason when I read the book, I mean, I was 12. But I thought it was like a really exciting, you know, revelation. It's funny, it was the only trout and novelisation that I'd ever bought. like I was just buying pertweis and Tobs. and but this was called Doctor Who in the Side Men. I definitely wanted to haven't. That's my 1st encounter with the 2nd doctor is reading that novelisation. And I didn't know about Jamie or Polly and Ben either. And such important things as well. The cover illustration is so evocative, even though it's the wrong cyberman. Yeah, fantastic. And it has interior. like it has its images inside. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's adorable. The other thing too, that I think that it does badly and that is almost immediately done better the following year. is that we have a base crew that has no characteristics of any kind. So Hobson's personality is that he's an intransigent base commander, and I guess the other person who has a personality is Andre Moran whose personality is what French? French. Yeah, cracks onto Polly the minute. That's right. To be fair, he's a proper failure and transigent. I actually find the base commander fairly reasonable compared to some of the other ones. compared to Cutler. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, they turn up out of nowhere. And I guess we're used to the doctor and companions being accused of being the people behind what's happening. But can I just say, Todd, this is the 1st instance in Doctor Who where someone turns around and says, these problems only begin when that strange doctor and his friends arrived. But they don't go and throw them in the brig or so we're going to put you out the airlock. He's quite willing for the doctors to find out, you know what's going on. So have a go at our science stuff. We don't have much, but you just go in there. You've got 24 hours. So it's a little bit different. I was actually, I didn't realise it was just Kit Pedler who wrote this. I'm just so used to Jerry Davis and Kip Peller or an idea by Kip Pedler. Jerry Davis was the script editor at this point. He was. Yeah, so it probably was, but you weren't allowed to credit yourself. If you were the... Yeah, I just thought that was interesting that it is, you know, the next year we're going to get all these base commanders, but I just thought he was a little less prickly than some of the ones coming up. I did think that they were sort of boring, though, the crew. And I went from watching this immediately to watching The Seeds of Death, which we're going to talk about next week. And just instantly it's full of characters who are really fun and have identifiable personalities and stuff and who interact with one another in a reasonable way. And this is obviously something that... But, well, you know, it's got Gia Kelly. She's awesome. For God's sake. Luis Pacho, who I 1st encountered in prisoner self blockage, but that's a story for another. And it's something that the new series does tremendously. Well, a few occasions, except for maybe the ganger to parter, where we have a base under siege. We have interesting and memorable character. And in fact, you have a repeat of the scene that you get here in episode one where Helson basically takes the doctor and co around introducing them to all of the plot functions of the characters in there. You have that in episodes like the Impossible Planet and Waters of Mars. You just have that same identifiable scene. I think the characters are just terribly underwritten. they're played well. Like, I feel like the actors are bringing some humanity to these characters that I think given lesser actors, we would have had a really boring episode. Like they're giving it a bit more than I think is on the page, to be honest. I agree with you. I actually felt that, you know, the Frenchman, the Australian, then there was the other guy creeping around who got zapped by the side of me. There was enough there was enough there going on where I thought you know, these guys are trying to bring a bit more to what's happening. My favourite one is Nils, who calls Hobson Hobby. And he's Danish. Yeah, he's Danish. something like, oh, we're getting a bit of a flap on or something like that. Like he speaks. It's like Sandy Toxic, you know, like a Dane with a very, very polish English accent. I mean, I like the fact that, yeah, okay, they're revisiting what they just did in the 10th planet, but they have to sort of ground their feet and make sure they can do this from a certain point of view. Like, you know, we've done it once and we've done it roughly. We just want to solidify what we've done before we can build on it. And if it had been 3 years ago, they probably would all be in English. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It is the same thing, isn't it, in the 10th planet? And it's the same thing in the wheel, in space. Like the sidemen are sort of constantly attacking these sort of multicultural bases and it's actually like not such a bad thing. Maybe they're Nazis. I mean, maybe they're British. They found something to colonise. Is that a thing as well? They're deliberately upping the multiculturalism of these bases to contrast against sort of the featurelessness of the side. Could that be a thing? Yeah, it's like everyone has this fear of a monoculture. And it's the monoculture writ large. And I think it's also their way of talking about the future. You know, like you've had things like the United Nations and stuff start to happen after the war. And I mean, the United Nations are explicitly in the 10th planet where Kurt from Faulty Towers lives. Like, he's the United Nations guy. Yeah. He's behind a desk somewhere. Yeah, that's one thing that I miss actually. So we've got Rindberg in this one and he's just, he is someone isn't he? He's the he's the doctor. He is a doctor who is, of course, skin sale in Horror of Fang Rock. Yeah, he's the who has the... Yeah, yeah. He's infected and never speaks out loud. No. But he's Rinberg. Whereas you have the other guy in the 10th planet and there is that amazing moment in the 10th planet where a place that you think is completely safe from science. just on a screen. Yeah, yeah. The cybermen are on the south pole or whatever. in a distant weird place and suddenly they stride into his office and I don't think this has anything that quite equals the shock of that. I think this story gets so much right in kind of, like the tenor you were saying earlier about the performances, Todd, and how they sort of bring things to life. The tenor of the performances is right. The Heart Lera, and I love the Heart Lera from its extremes to its best to its worst. It could be a little bit woohoo sometimes. Yeah, especially the John Wild stuff. Whereas this kind of brings the program a bit more down to earth and I think makes it maybe more accessible to an older audience. It's not quite so kiddie sci-fi, even though some of the ways that it does things are a little bit kiddie. But the most important thing, and this goes back to what I was saying earlier about, you know, Doctor Who's motus operandi didn't arrive fully formed. It sort of happens. The most important thing is the show is leaning for the very 1st time into horror tropes. Yeah. And it's had moments of scare before, you know, menace. But now it's actively setting out to justify Doctor Who's behind the sofa reputation. Now, as far as I can identify behind the sofa was 1st mentioned in a newspaper article in 1973, where they said the Daleks were something to get the children hiding behind the sofa in happy anticipation of 25 minutes of fear. I don't think the Daleks ever were really that. I think the Daleks were bizarre and otherworldly and fascinated children, but they were never scary in the way that the cybermen are set up here. So the sidemen lurk in shadows. Um, you get kind of, you know, characters doing things. You'll see the cyber shadows sort of fall in the background. There's jump scares, people turn around and the sidemen are there behind them in full close-up. And this story has identified that that is a successful model for the series going forward. So throughout the rest of the trout era, and the early Pertwi era leading up to that 1973 article, you have Doctor Who turning into a program that frightens rather than thrills children. I think that's a great thing. Like, I do think that that's good, and maybe that's the big legacy here, but I do think that, in a way, that the base under siege is a bit of a retrograde stamp. I, I, going with the horror thing. I think the reason it works so well is because we're getting a bit more kitchen sink. Because, you know, normally, certainly catch something. But, you know, normally like the horror in Doctor Who has been like just one more weird thing. in the heart in the area. But here we get so many mentions of people having cups of coffee in and being plot specific cups of coffee. You know, Poly's made some coffee. Oh, the sugar is what's killing everyone. Here's a tray of coffee. Let's fill the hole in the wall with the coffee tray. Like it's such kitchen sink stuff that kind of grounds you into your reality that makes you go, oh, we're always having coffee at home. What if there was a Superman? the Daleks on the planet desperate. This isn't completely removed from our experience. This paves the way for things like, yes, in the underground autumns on the high street. I mean, part of the thing too, part of their problem too, is that I think one of the ways that Doctor Who goes wrong, that starts here, is that it becomes about things that happen to men at work. And that's like a, that's a big thing even in things that aren't bases under siege. Basically all of season 7 is here's what happens to men at work. And you might have our woman, but you don't hear, you've got just Polly. She the only woman, you know. She's got a lot more agency than a lot of, yeah, she's great. Later women. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's creating this. I mean, obviously she gets to scream. A number of times at shadows and then she actually gets to come up with a solution to get rid of. And she gets snapped and knocked out. That's quite... Yeah, this rule for a female character. And she's working with the doctor. You know, Jamie's knocked out over there. Ben's wherever Ben is, right? He's just one of the people in the base and she's sort of front and centre with Patrick for quite a lot of it. I love that moment where they go, Ben, we're going to sit you at this desk here because we've run out of things for you to do. So you're going to pretend to work. I think they went well too many times with the base under siege. That's absolutely a thing. Yeah, but I think, you know, like even as later, sort of hand of fear. Like it's just men in their workplaces. And sometimes wearing jumpsuits. And so even when the doctor comes back in 2005, he says, I don't do domestic. And the new series remedies that in all sorts of ways. But it might have been better. You know, per his example of a yeti on the loo and Tooting Beck assumes that they're in your home. And so it is a bit removed by being a male workplace on the moon you know, so it's not, you're right, there is kitchen sink stuff there and there is identifiable stuff, but it is from a very restricted part of the world, I think. And that's just the way it is. You know, that's that's the times, that's the environment. And that's the reflection of that. And I do agree with you about this formula is restrictive in terms of the inventiveness of the show and that sort of thing. But it is what it is moving forward. And I think that, you know, they have no choice. If you're going to do a base under siege story, then you can't just sit in the same place. So what you do is you set it in a fictional establishment where you have people around you doing different tasks and, you know, a threat from the outside. And so by its nature, it is what it is. I think they do go to the well too many times, but I also think that when they do it right, this is the absolute acme of Doctor Who going for. You know, one thing I loved about this that I think they kind of missed out on as they went along was that the miniatures matched the reality. Like the gravitron look the same in miniature as it does in the set, like that giant thing. It's not 100% there, but they definitely, they've made an effort. Whereas, like, that's just doing it now, it'll be like... Oh, that thing over there and they'll just point at nothing and then there'll be a miniature. But it's a level of competence that these springs that we've had a variability before and this is competent in terms of, you know, the set in general. doors, et cetera. And the things they put on their heads to go in the graviton and what are those breathing apparatus that they're wearing, you know? That looks like a coke bottle. love that. Oh no, I love it. Like, but it's a fish bowl helmet. I love the emergency oxygen. I'm like, you never see that. Like whenever anything is in space. There's never emergency oxygen. I also love the moment where they have to use the emergency oxygen. Polly goes, well, why didn't you do this before? And they said, well, it would have wasted it. She goes, oh, okay. But you also have got special effects like with the cybermen zapping from their fingers. and the gravitron beam. and that laser that they fire, which is Doctor Who's 1st optical effect. Yeah. Oh, is it? Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's acceptable. Yeah. 12 months ago may not have been acceptable. Well, no, it wouldn't go under John Wiles. This would have been rope years all hell would have had some way out ideas, which would have been very entertaining, enjoyable in their own way. it probably would have been a failed production. Also, this is so far from a failed production. William Hartnell refused to wear a spacesuit. Ah, which is why in the web planet. They've got those weird anorex that blow air on your face. Because they need to be wearing wine. 2 conventions. They need to be wearing white for that special effect shot to work don't they? So that's why they're wearing those. But no, like he refused to have a handle murder. And so when Patrick Charlton's gone, yeah, I'll put in a spacesuit they're like, oh, thank God. Can you go to the moon? Oh my god. So I think the moon is obviously a genius idea at this and sort of inevitable and it is better than the South Pole as a... But, you know, it is really just a couple of years before people are actually there. Well, yeah, they were doing that. Rocket testing. And I'm sure that was the intention for the 10th planet was to be somewhere alien and they ran up against the lead actor who went not putting on a helmet. But this might be the production they wanted to do with the 10th planet, but they'd lost their actor halfway through. They were told you have to have snow instead of out of space. But I still think the 10th planet in terms of its sets, like the base and that looks cramped, it looks cheap at times in various things. This doesn't, you know? And so keep going back, there's a competence here. that that didn't have. And the cybermen don't look like they're held together by sticky tape. Doctor Who's production always goes forward and fits and starts. It's never a definitive turning point. And so even though it's not a very good story. The production on the arc is actually quite sophisticated. But then you come back and you've got the celestial toy maker or the smugglers or indeed the 10th planet and they're not quite so sophisticated as productions. But then you'll get something like Power of the Daleks, which is an insanely sophisticated production. But then a retrograde step 2 stories later in the underwater menace. Here, I think, is the moment where they do away with those, yeah the up and down levels of, you know, what are we going to get this week? Will it work? And I think going forward, you have very few productions that could ever, as Todd said, be classified as failing productions where we start to get that again is the 1980s, which is where the machine starts to come off the series. I think the other thing with this one is like, I know the episode's missing, but the underwater ballet in underwater menace I think, has made them go, oh, we can't do the moon. I would like to see them jumping around on the moon to see actually what it's like. Do we see the strings? We absolutely would see the strings, but it would be fun. But, I mean, we see what we do see is the scene in episode 4 where the Cyberman... Yeah, or blasted into space. and that looks good. It looks amazing. And the sound, the other thing, like all of this music is stock isn't it? But it's really good. Like, I think it's got really memorable music. And the noise that they make when they're sort of jumping up and down in episode one. Yeah, but the cybermen make that noise at the end as well when they're going into space. It's really fun. That's really fun. And I think that the spacesuits are so kind of hipster. because they're from the future because it's 2070 or whatever. So there's spacesuits from 100 years time. They go out of their way to make them look different from the spacesuits of the present day, which is not what happens in, you know, say the tenant era where you've got that orange spacesuit that just looks like a spacesuit from a science fiction thing. These are futury spacesuits. And they're fabulous. And the fact that they were wearing sunglasses in them and stuff it's just... I expected to hear someone say in my eyes, the goggles. Don't look into the sun, the better one. Now, look, they figured out what they can do with their resources to work on screen. And so it's only 12 months ago in a very good production, Dalek's masterplan, where you have someone being ejected into space realised as someone jumping up and down on a trampoline. Don't really know how that looked, but I suspect not very good. Whereas here, you've not only got those scenes on strings, on film at Ealing, but you've also got, they're leaning into, as we talked about for the terror of it, with that slow motion chase in episode 3, with the sidemen following the crewmen back and just sort of this, you know, they're running as fast as they can in that low gravity environment and the sidebound are just stalking behind them. I have no doubt that that would have been a really great scene. How many cybermen are there? Do we know? They're 11. Are they? outside or is they? In total. Is there 2 in the base? There's 11 suits, which they use. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what I meant. Yeah, yeah. They made 11 side men, which is unheard of, I think. Yeah, even in Dalekin Invasion of Earth, which we talked about last week, there's still cardboard daleks in Sloane Square. Like even later on, like you only get like 3 or 4 of a monster, you know, you don't even get that many jedun, do you? You'd never have a... You just have one hero Jadoon and all the rest of them are wearing helmets. Last week, we talked about how the Daleks really became just robots in the Dalek invasion of Earth, as opposed to what they were before. Watching this, I was kind of going, well, they really are just robots compared to what they once were performed. Like, you know, in the 10th planet, they're individuals. I mean, I know they're not necessarily... And in fact, in the novelisation of this story, they still have their names, yeah. But on screen, they don't. By taking away that face and just making the same face and the funny voice, they really do, I think, become I found it difficult to listen to all the dialogue. I couldn't get all the dialogue out of the side. So they don't speak for the 1st 2 episodes for a start. And they say things like clever, clever, clever. Yeah, yeah, only stupid earth brains. Hey I'm right here. I know that sounds like they've got emotions, but I think what their AI has told them. This is how you upset humans. Yes, with mockery and sarcasm. It's a lesson that the cyber leader in earth shock took very seriously. Yeah. So it's an AR. So the other thing too is that they don't seem to be motivated by anything. And the thing that made the 10th planet Cybermen scary or one of the many things that made them scary is that they thought they were helping. So they were coming and they were going to convert us because their planet was inevitably kind of draining our planet's energy or whatever. And so they were going to help us by converting us. that was kind of terrifying. And you can't imagine anything in this story comparing to the conversation that the Cyberman has with Polly, about ethics, you know, about all the people on earth that are dying now that you don't care about, like at the Simon wins that conversation. Here, they really are just delivering functional dialogue. Well, that's setting side Menopus characters in here, and I think they are very good here with the best will in the world. They're not characters. No, they're just a remorseless army. But that's the other thing that I think is the problem, that everything that's really interesting about the Cyberman goes away here. And that stays, I think, for the rest of the run, maybe until the 80s or maybe not even that. Maybe this actually kills off the cybermen as an interesting atmosphere. I think again, we were talking about fits and starts. It's not a key turning point here. Yes, this does that, but I think Tomb of the Cyberman next restores some of what... Yeah. And then it goes back again to, you know, the wheeling space they're just heavies in space. I kind of, I like the, um, body horror that they introduce in this like the tendrils moving along the arms, the, yeah, becoming controlled by the cybermen, which, you know, it's not explicit in the script, but I feel like if you're a Doctor Who fan who's watched the 10th planet. you know that they want to convert humans. And this is like, it's almost subtext. It's like, well, they've turned these people into automatons using sugar. Haven't they missed a trick by not physically part cybernetizing them? Oh, even if it had that reveal of not the spider veins, but actually them throwing off the cloak and they've got like, you know, uh, so even if those helmets, Stratton and Bates. those little helmet things that have on with the eye and the fore, the little dabros, I think they've got, if that had the handles on it or something and you went, oh, no, they're becoming, but it's still, I found that still an effective, terrifying plot point. I agree with you, but I don't think they could have realised that half cyber ties thing in a way that would be acceptable, which is why I think doing the vein thing works so much better. They can do, which works on screen. And the vain thing where they, what are they doing? They do stop motion or something. Yeah, it's like a close motion on the hand. It's effective. It's really good And their fingers are interesting because they're really pointy. Like I was thinking, oh, it's really pointy fingers. cricket gloves, you know? I miss too, yeah. Are these the 3 fingered ones? I can't remember. Because, yeah, I think I think they've now got four. I don't know. Look up TARDIS Wiki. But I just remember seeing the... Because I watched the cartoon version and like, which is a really effective cartoon. It's pretty good. Really atmospheric. It's, you know, very limited animation, but it's, it's got an art style that's really interesting and it's kind of, but also it's got a fan eye. So when they reanimate the bit at the start of part three, which is the sideman getting off the bed, they even give the hospital bed, the same little wobble. Yeah, the Simon comes off the end of part two. I mean, they're very heavy. They're made of metal. That bed's not going to really stand by. I do find it interesting, though, that they've managed to infiltrate the base and then they need to do that to the humans rather than just to full. Well, we've got to. why don't we just have all of them just walk in and blast everybody and then get hold of the graviton, but I guess you have got no story. If you do that, you were talking about, you know, having a conversation and they have that conversation where they say, no we're not afraid. We just want to, what was it, eliminate things that are dangerous which I thought was a very interesting comment. Because that's the thing is why are they here? Right. And we have to rule out revenge as a reason because that's an emotion. And so it just becomes their eliminating something dangerous. In which case, would a version of this where it was the ice warriors work? Do you know what I mean? It just doesn't matter who that is. This is what you were saying earlier. The fact that they become, they're now robots rather than creatures. They occupy the same space as things like the yeti and the ice warriors going forward. So in any of those stories, if you take out the backstory to the creatures, what they actually do in the plot is completely interchangeable. It could be the cybermen in the underground in Webber fear. And in fact, we get that 5 stories late up there in the sewers in the invasion. But it's the moment where they play space adventure over the yeti and you think it really doesn't matter, does it? It doesn't matter which one of these 3 monsters we have this week. Oh, it's the music that we have here. That's replay. And they're going, what? Yes, no, when I watch the video and going, what? That is the cyberman music. cannot do this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I mean, it precisely is because it doesn't matter who they are. And that is, that's a problem because it makes Doctor Who so much more functional and so much less one wondrous so much less interesting. And, you know, next year we'll get, you know, the enemy of the world and that's not this and that's super strange and all sorts of ways, like hugely unpredictable and amazing. It's not quite what you would do in the heart and era, and it's not quite what you do in series 6. So what I'm hearing you saying is that when Doctor Who does a formula, it's good and when it reacts against the formula, it's good. Well, no, what I what I'm saying is that I think that I do think that the formula is overwhelmingly not good. Yeah. See, I would disagree. I think it's by giving it a kind of repetition. A, you get kids who love to see the same thing every week. Sure. That's right. And can I just say, the sidemen become a force in the program now not because even though they've had all of their individual, all of the things that made them interesting, they're for the story stripped away. It's the repetition. They're there 4 times in the Troughton era. Kids remember that. Sorry to go on. And yeah, but so you get the repetition, but also one thing that you have when you tell the same stories again and again and again is you can spend time on character development. You can spend time, you know, building up the people in the base because you go, well, how are we making this different to the last time we did this? And so you start to get nuanced and you get interesting things happening with the characters. And I don't know that the show would have survived as long as it has without that period of, let's do the same thing, every story and really work on making the people interesting. So, I mean, I guess the best example of that next year is going to be the ice warriors, isn't it? Where you've got the love triangle between Clint, Penley, Clint Penley, and the computer. And miscarriage. The computer says no. And store or whatever his name is. It's a polycule, really, right? I love triangle. But those characters are interesting, but it is still fairly basic. It's not sophisticated drama in any way. It's not that interesting. Yeah, the characters are always... I mean, it's good. And, you know, like, obviously, Miss Garrett is fantastic. Like and all of that sort of stuff going on in the base is pretty good, but it just like now, do you know what I mean? Like perhaps at the time, perhaps for the child audience, but now I just find them a little bit of a slog and not. Maybe you've watched it too many times. Maybe. But, you know, it's just the 1st time. Yeah, this is the 1st proper thing. Also, like, because I've watched the underwater menace before this. I was like, oh, wow. This is so much, it feels so much more streamlined. Yeah, yeah. Like, you've got a complete through line from episode to episode instead of like whatever was going on the previous... You've gone from fish people outfits, which are very sub, the 1st cybermen, to these, which look metallic and robotic, even if they are people. And they have shoelaces, and that's fine. And also their shoes going to stay on. They're streamlined. They look consistent. They look good. They're not held together by sticky tape. Yeah. You know, not that I'm harping back on that. But, and I love the original side of them. But, you know, they're streamlined, the chess plates, you know they're much smaller and compact, and the helmet and the voice just, and the way the mouth works, it just all adds to the, the horror of when they get the acetone spray. and they start foaming up. Like it is a gruesome, terrifying moment. It's actually pretty brutal isn't it? Yeah. One of the things that struck me is that in that whole thing, the audience has to have a plastic spray bottle explained to them. So it must be a reasonably recent thing. plastic was very new. Like, it's why the fish gills in the previous story were plastic because it plastic was not a thing. Like, even in the 70s with, you know, the autons inhabiting plastic. That's when plastic started to become more of a thing, it was more mass produced, but, Yeah, it's a very new and exciting. I mean, technically, the acetone would have eaten through the plastic, but yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, no one really thought of that, but yes. Todd said that he likes the version of the sidemen and the 10th player. So do I. I think I prefer them to this version, but from a body horror point of view, yeah, the human hand, the uncanny valleyness and the grotesqueness of what they are. But there's so many things about this version of the seidemen that I like as well. So this story develops the fact that they are an army of monsters on the march, which you don't get previously. Even the Daleks refer to each other as individuals. They speak to each other as individuals, whereas sidemen here don't speak to each other in any way except to, you know, how's our plan going? And so they're kind of an army and they're used as cannon fodder by the good guys. It develops that idea of them. But they've also become, in terms of the series, a mythic force. And so you get Hobson talking about the sidemen, it's these kind of ancient things, mythology. Children know about them. Yeah, from 1986. They also resemble the Phantom Piper, which is kind of something from Jamie's clans. It's so good. That's right. And when you talk about it, you then get the close-up of the sidemen looking like this grotesque kind of creature from, you know, urban legend. It's that brilliant moment where Trouton doesn't dismiss it as superstition. It says it's still important because Jamie believes it, which I think is really, really good. And you're right, it does add to that sort of mythic thing about them. they also keep their strength. They're frightening. Because when they pick people up. Oh, yeah, yeah. When they pick people up handling. It's just under one arm. Yes, it's under one arm. Like, and you just hear going, wow, they are that strong. Even the person in the bed looks, you know, quite big, not small. It's absolutely toe curling, I think. And so even though they've lost some of what made them distinctive and they've lost their elegance, which they had from the 10th planet. It's instructive the way that they were thought of now. Again, if you go back to the novelisation of the Sidemen and Jerry Davis, he described them like this. He said, like human monsters, down through all the ages of earth they became aware of the lack of love and feeling in their lives and substituted another goal, power. Wow. Yeah. And so that is a good template for a monster going forward. And the subtext of it as well, that kind of where we're going to pick up men and take them off and convert them. Like, obviously they're terrified of gay people. Simon, the ultimate gay. They want control and domination. I mean, they're wearing rubber suits. come on Just because they're sprayed silver doesn't mean they're not kinky. And it allows the doctor to change. It allows the doctor to now become the character who says there are some corners of the universe who bred the most terrible things things which must be fought, and which the novelisation ads, things which must be fought to the death. The way he delivers that is so good. I think. such a moment, isn't it? It's really good. And there's another moment, I think, too. And in our 1st episode of 500 year diary, we saw that in a way Trouton becomes the doctor because the Daleks recognise him. The cybermen recognise him. You're known to us and you to me. It's a really, really good exchange, I think. I think it's great that they do recognise him. And that's signposted because we talked last episode about the fact that the Daleks do not recognise the doctor in the Dalek invasion birth, which I thought was not... It was a mistake, but it was strange because from that point on they do. They do. So having that recognition was great. And also, Polly recognising the cyber, it's really, it's really interesting the way it shot because she barely sees them and then she sort of cries into the doctor's shoulder and says the side moment, it sort of muffled, like she just throws it into the dialogue. The button came out. You could miss it. Like, so then it's like, okay, we're trying to reinforce that. These are the cybermen, because they look different from 4 months ago and then you get a leap in the ratings. I think from 8.one to 8.9 suddenly this story compared to the last 2 stories which fell back to 7s and 6s. It suddenly... It's solidified. It's solidified the audience and we're away. Can I ask a question? The other Cyberman in story, a new design. And the reason that I'm asking this is that last week we saw that there was a conversation about how the Daleks looked different from the 1st time that they appeared, there's no conversation about that here. No one... Polly immediately recognises them, even though they look very little like the side men she encountered on snowcapped bays. So is the idea that what the show has done is has said this was our bad initial design of the cybermen and the sidemen are going to look like this going forward. The sidemen have always looked like this viewer. Yes, that's right. Is that how we to understand it? Because think about what happens in the new series, when Russell brings the cybermen back, he brings them back and gives them a new origin so that they can look different and those cybermen are sort of generally used, then Moffat goes, no, actually, all of the cybermen that we saw on screen, all really existed, and you're kind of going to see them. And it's the same with the Daleks. When Russell brings the Daleks back, we only ever see the new brass Daleks that he creates. Moffatt goes, no, all of the daleks always look different and they that that was a real thing. And the classic series takes the approach that Russell takes yeah? We never go back and see a previous cyberman design. And so I think the idea is that we're supposed to feel that this is what the cybermen look like and no character ever remarks on how they look different from how they did last time. I think it's a good point. But there is hesitation in her voice and I think she's trying to convince herself, yes, it's a cyberman, like when she says, yes the cyberman and then it's sort of taken on board. So, I don't know, I guess it's a little too fan of me. I'm quite happy to say, yeah, no, I was the old ones and they've just updated and upgraded. And Polly recognised them as, oh, yes, this assignment. Oh, yes, it is the cyber. And then we just accept it. I think that point would stand if the sidemen always looked like they do in the moon base going forwards. But the fact that they've had this huge upgrade in their design in the real world gives costume designers going forward, permission to keep changing them and to make the, whereas fiddling with them. That's right, fiddling with them. But that's not what happens to the Daleks. The dark. Right up until the very misconceived redesign that they're given in victory of the Daleks. And the other one that they're given in revolution of the Daleks as well. Also, misconceived, okay? So, the squished, darling. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They retain exactly the same silhouette, even though they're built slightly. Yeah. Yeah. So I think that that's one of the big differences between the Daleks and the sidemen. And one of the reasons I think the cybermen are always just kind of, oh, it's the cybermen, rather than the dialect. Compared to how you feel about the Daleks returning. I like something. I, for me, because, you know, in my other podcast, I'm always trying to explain why things happen in Doctor Who. Yeah. For me, hiding to nothing. Which is, so for me, it's the 10th planet Cybermen are equipped for going to another Earth. Yeah. They don't need too much. Like they've developed enough to work on the surface of their planet without having to have too much oxygen and stuff and they're fine in the cold. These cybermen are going to the moon. Yeah, so they have to be able to walk in. Yeah, they have to, so they need a heavier boot. They need a more a better filtration system on the chest. They need a bit more protection because there's still organic material inside. So they need this more robust suit. Yeah, so the universe reason for their design is that they've had to be upgraded for the elements. Yeah, they've gone, well, we're going to the moon. And that's why they now have this, they can't deal with radiation because they've had to make some affordances to deal with the vacuum. So it kind of means, oh, now we can't go and do that thing. We would have been able to do if we had our cloth masks on, which was go and do the radiation business. They've, you know, there's always a give and take in design where you're like, oh, well, that's, we've made ourselves a stupid weakness now. I like that, yeah. I mean, it is, though, I think, telling that there isn't a look you know what I mean? handles for ears. That's it. I'm I miss the chest units. Yeah. Like when Russell State Davis got rid of the chest units. I was like, oh, I always liked a bit of, you know, I mean, the things that he said, I think the things that he said were, because I think he just let that be designed to me. And he said that it needed the teardrop, which 1st appears in wheel and space, and he's clearly... I was also crying during the wheel and space. But it's clearly just there so the actors can see out the mask. Correct. Um, and... But there were nostrils. extra nostrils. And I think that this Cyberman look that we get here is probably the best one, this one through Wheeling Space. I think once they get the big heads, then, you know, I'm done. Something very scary about the invasion cyberman. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think they're good, but they're in a great story but I do like the more sort of streamlined ones that we get in the early 60s. And the little mouth flap. Open. Yeah, that's awesome. Well, I mean, that's a little bit like, which I remember us regarding as ridiculous years and years ago, and now we think is great, where the actor was opening their mouth. and the words were coming out in the 10th planet. Yeah, yeah. I was always as a kid. I was amazed. Simon had these, this stream, I looked. I always thought the Simon would look like Revenge of the Simon the big heads, yeah, yeah. And I didn't realise that it was like they looked different. A lot of that would have been the cover illustrations of the novelisations because for this story and Tomb of the Cyberman, they look like the invasion and eventually Cyberman Cyberman. I like the fact that they continually change and upgrade, even, you know, sometimes it might be a step backward. I do like that. I mean, I have to say that one of the things about ascension of the side men that I disliked was the return of the big giant head side man. I thought we'd seen the back of them. Oh, I love that. I thought it was fantastic. That was your biggest problem with that episode. not my biggest problem with that episode. This is just such an important story. I don't think it works on all levels, and I think the sidemen have lost something, which was important and interesting, which was set up, but I think this has secured the future of the program, this story because it brazenly sets out to scare. Previously, only Terry Nation had ever used words in episode titles like Terror and Fear, whereas going forwards, God, who will always be this. It will be a horror of Fang Rock. It will be the terror of the Autons, the curse of Paladon. And I think it may be a workmanlike production, but workmanlike indicates that there is a base level of competence. And that's what this story achieves going forward. It sets a template and says Doctor Who will never be worse than this going forward. It will always be able to achieve what this story achieves. if they put in the effort. However... Sometimes they don't put in the effort, and that is a problem. But you know, up until this point, you'd be lurching from a boring historical. Let's say the highlanders, the massacre. Yeah, mascot, very much. to sort of weird, crappy B movie sci-fi like the underwater menace. This is just an important story to say Doctor Who will not be that again. Well, that's all the time we have for this week. We'll be back next week to stare in slack jawed wonder as Doctor Who attempts to make green lizard men from Mars a thing in the seeds of death. In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts and you can keep up with us on our website, 500yearDiary.com, or you'll find our social media links, as well as our links to all of our other podcasts, including our other Doctor Who podcasts flights for entirety, and the 2nd great and bountiful human empire. Until next time, have a couple of poly cocktails on us. Maybe take it easy on the acetone. Thank you very much for listening and good night. Good night. Good night. See you soon. That was 500-year diary, starring Todd B. will be Nathan Bottomley Peter Group, with St. Adam Richard. The theme was composed by Cameron Lamb. This episode, the show as we know it, was recorded on the 23rd of March 2025 and released on the 4th of May. And on this week's episode of The Second Great and Bountiful Human Empire, we'll be talking about the return of Ruby Sunday and Unit to Doctor Who in Lucky Day. So head on over to greatandbountiful.com and subscribe. What do you think? Yeah, that's great. No, I totally utterly agree with you, because next story, we have Petritron's face in the opening credits. Like, it's suddenly, I, so we'll talk about this when we record the next thing, but just like, it's the, so the seeds of death. I just, even the music's is improved, isn't it? Oh great. So we improve the title music. Yeah. Did we improve the title, the title music? Yeah, it starts with the little tinkling. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's a little bit more complicated, that new title sequence is so much better. Well, I think we'll start next time talking about why it's just because that's a sort of Simon, you kind of discussion about like because production. Yeah. Well, you know, like when I was watching Darlic Invasion of Earth for this, initially I just put it on the big, like, you know, full screen on my monitor and it was just not an enjoyable experience. So it's much better in a smaller window. He is. That's how we watched. I remember watching Doctor Who on a tiny black and white TV that I had in my bedroom, like that's like even the baker era I watched in black and white on a tiny television. I had like an inch, like a little, like a little one where you had to tune into the different channels using a dial. This story is made for that. story is made for that little black and white images on a little TV. Yes. We said on Darlic Invasion Earth last week. I said that the Daleks are a little bit lost in those big panoramas, out on location in London, watching them on a small screen in 405 line. They just don't have a lot of impact. This story is made and designed to give the sidemen that impact on the whole big face of a sidemen just suddenly. Yeah, yeah. You're like, no, they're starting at the end of the episode. It recently sets out to scare and that's a new thing for Doctor Who. The one the is it Cliffhanger to episode 3 or two, two, where it gets out of the bed. It's two, isn't it? So quick. So good. Even watching it now gives me the willies. Yeah, yeah, it's so great. Much like that porn hub. Can't agree. Speaking of willies from porn. It's just, it's so linear. Like it's so linear. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's not like the plot isn't very interesting. It's just, you know, like it's oak. That's definitely God explores. It's a coat hangout for horror. Yeah, it's a realistic thing. Yeah, exactly. But it's kind of a big plate of cake vehicle landing on this. I mean, look, being able to repair a hole in the wall with a coffee tray. Well, that's awesome. That's absolutely Doctor Who. hilariously fun. But yes, I love it. And that's Doctor Who. hilariously fun. all, you know, all the air's getting sucked out and then, you know, then it's not. Like, I think the science for that is pretty strong as well. I love the kind of like moment of hesitation of like, yeah, I'll turn the coffee over. It's always like a... On the one hand, we have to breathe. But on the other hand... They've actually spent 5 minutes of their precious time at Ealing shooting the cutaway of the train. It's amazing. Because that's the other thing, like the special effects and the ability to stop recording and all that now compared to a year ago or even 6 months ago. is really evident in terms of the late 60s product television production. And the gravitron, like looking like the script wants it to look so that you are directing it at a thing. Because the other thing is the Simon here vulnerable to gravity. And you kind of go, well, like everyone... Do you remember the thing? Do you remember the thing in Silver Nemesis, where Lady Painfort has gold arrows dipped in poison and at the same and go, oh, we can't handle that. Their gold will run away. And so the Nazis go and wheel attack because we're not vulnerable to gold. And he comes out. You are also... you are... arrows dicked in poison. And I thought that that was that, you know, gravity. It turns out when you direct the graviton at the cybermen, they fly up into the air, which is what would happen with literally any physical object. Substitute the ice. I would have loved to have seen the yeti. A nice warrior, the big headed bubble headed ones. The big eyes. So bad. I'm going to talk about mention you because you say you call them pumpkin. No, pineapple headed one. You know, you know how they've got like pumpkin heads. They've got pumpkin head. They've got like the big one, the big head and the smaller body and it's sort of mismatched suits. and you kind of go, which they're away with after the ice force, but then inexplicably bring back in the background in Monster. Paladin. It's there Yeah, yeah. The pumpkin head? Pineapple hair. Whatever you want to call it, I want to just start that episode by saying they are the worst recurring monster in the history of Doctor Who. They just look stupid. like the fluffy pubes and they're big asses. Right here. But you're totally right. Like, compare them to the cyberman, which you just talked about. It's like I'm an extremelined and fit and strong. They look like the future coming up. I suppose it's been on their heart. Ask Toya. What's her name? Anyway, okay.