WEBVTT

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This transcript was created on 2026-05-03 at 08:40:29

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to 500 Year Diary, the only

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Doctor Who podcast that has fun plays games, I think we're

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learning.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Peter.

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I'm Simon, and I'm Stephen.

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It's been nearly 17 years since the Crusade of 50 Bus took its

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passengers on that unfortunate detour on the Diamond Planet of

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Midnight, and tonight the Doctor Who audience is back here again

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just one day before tuning into the 1st episode of the current

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season of 500-year diary.

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But why are we back on the planet Midnight in 2025?

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And why are we encountering this featureless malevolence one more

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time?

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Let's see if we can work out the answers to these questions as we

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discuss the well.

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This was an unexpected one, and we are doing this 11th episode of

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our 2nd coming season because suddenly out of nowhere came a

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sequel to midnight in this most recent season of Doctor Who.

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So let's start by talking about how we feel about midnight

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itself.

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Stephen.

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I can't believe it's almost 17 years.

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That's the 1st thing I'll say.

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That is unbelievable.

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And when you mentioned that my heart kind of sank in many ways.

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I've probably only watched it once or twice since, and the reason

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for that is I don't want the magic of it to wear off, but there's

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still this sort of visceral gut punch that I had from that story

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because it's not necessarily Doctor Who and the midnight menace

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it's Doctor Who and the boss full of very ordinary people doing

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very ordinary things under very extraordinary circumstances and

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conditions.

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Um, which when you're 8 sounds like a great idea for a Doctor Who

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story.

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When you're 18, you think that's the most terrible idea for a

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Doctor Who story.

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Perhaps when you're 28 when I watched it, I just thought this is

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brilliant.

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So yeah, it remains for me one of the highlights of new who, and I

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think it's the type of story that you could only do in the new

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series.

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Classic who I don't think has that emotional vocabulary and syntax

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to be able to tell that kind of story, but in 2000, on say nine.

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Uh, it has such a visceral impact and as much on the not where

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you're as on the Wii, I think.

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It's a work of genius.

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I'm very fond of it because I think it showed that new Doctor Who

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could do things which classic Doctor Who did.

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And so it's the 1st time in the new series that we get that kind

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of contained claustrophobic drama.

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And I think the fact that Doctor Who, with all of its budget and

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its, you know, wider special effects, vocabulary, as you put it

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Stephen, in the new series, could then just bring it down.

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It's basically a set of characters in a room.

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And the fact that Russell wrote that midnights at the 11th hour

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basically, to fill the slot for another script that fell through

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proves that both the new series and Russell could do that kind of

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intense everyone in a room drama, and I loved it.

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No, I really liked it at the time.

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I mean, I actually watched it again yesterday in preparation for

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this.

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I hadn't hadn't seen it for quite a number of years.

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I tend not to revisit new series episodes in the same way that I

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revisit classic series episodes.

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It's a one act play.

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It is the kind of thing that the original series didn't and

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couldn't do.

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It's one of the things that I like to say, is the new series at

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its best, is when it's not trying to mimic a classic series 4

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passer and squish it into 50 minutes or 45 minutes.

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It's when it's trying to tell a proper short story.

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And this is that feeling where it's all just a sort of a

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continuous, more or less, a continuous set of action that carries

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us through.

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And I think it does tonely get the show absolutely right in a way

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that unfortunately some of the rest of his stuff doesn't.

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Yeah, I love it.

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I do broadly agree with you, but I would say that it has an

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antecedent in the original series, which is the horror fang role.

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Yeah.

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That's true.

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Yes, that's true actually.

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It's just an ordinary group of people under pressure from some

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external force.

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I think that's absolutely right.

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But the ordinariness of them is much more salient, I think, in

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this, because in the grand tradition of the new series, they're

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just dressed in kind of 21st century clothing and they are kind of

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identifiable.

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And I think it, particularly it's Biff and is it Val?

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Yeah, who are super awful people. and start talking about

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immigrants and things as well.

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And it is people under pressure from something unknown, something

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they're unable to identify, and our 1st instinct is for all of us

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to turn on each other.

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And so it isn't about the midnight entity, particularly.

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It is just about what people are like when we're put in a

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difficult situation.

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And for me too, it comes in the middle of what is, I think, the

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strongest run of episodes of Doctor Who in the history of the show

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the new series for me.

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Yeah, yeah.

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That run from Unicorn and the Wasp through to Journey's End, I

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think, is as good as Doctor Who has ever been.

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And also, I think the moment in that episode, which is the real

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gut punch for me, is not when everyone turns out to be awful, which

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they do.

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It's when the one person who's been kind of influenced by the

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doctor on his side, which is Colin Morgan's character, suddenly

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turns, and the doctor just looks at him with this heartbreak on

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his face and says, oh, no, not you too.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I also think too, that the monster is incredibly good as well.

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So we only see it through the character of Skysorvestry, which is

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just an incredible performance.

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Russell had had her before remember in the 2nd coming, where she

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plays Judas.

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Yes, right.

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Yeah, opposite Christopher Eccleston's Jesus.

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Jesus.

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It's funny that because now Russell does that in the same phrase

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well.

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He goes, Christopher Eccleston.

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Oh, Jesus.

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But it's so imitable.

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It's one of those things that we always talk about where the

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villain is something that you can imitate in the playground.

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And this villain, which is just learning.

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So it is kind of positioned as a child, something that's learning

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how to interact, that's learning language, does the thing that

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irritating children do, which is repeat everything that you say?

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And then that's turned into being made creepy.

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At 1st it's annoying.

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And then it goes beyond annoying.

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Yeah, yeah.

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It takes a few minutes to do that.

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And what it does, of course, is it takes the thing that David

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Tennant's doctor is the most famous for.

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The thing that he spots in himself in the Christmas invasion, that

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he's gobby.

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You know, he never ever stops talking.

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And that's his superpower and it gets taken away from him here.

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I think it's amazingly good and just too stellar central

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performances from those 2 leads.

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She brings an amazing performance tick to it, which makes it very

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otherworldly with those strange darting birdlike movements.

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Yes, she does.

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That really positions as something weird and unknowable.

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I also love how it's essentially the tenant doctors or the 10th

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doctors hubris that undoes him.

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You know, he says, because I'm clever.

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And that's where the story turns for me.

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I think that's where everyone starts to turn on him.

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And of course, there's, you know, something wonderfully Greek

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about that.

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You know, that's the cleverest man in the room, he's the cleverest

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man in the room, but because of that, and because he says that

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that's kind of his undoing.

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Yes, traditionally, we are used to a situation where the doctor

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you know, is the cleverest person there and so everybody just

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defers to him.

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He just carries the authority.

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And, you know, there might be something about who put you in

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charge at some point, but really, you know, the ground swell is

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with him.

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And it was so, it's so fascinating to have that be the stop where

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it's like, well, no, who put you in charge and and you're just an

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arrogant so-and-so and we're not going to pay attention to you.

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Why should we?

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Maybe it's because Donna's not there.

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Maybe Madonna's not there.

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It's basically...

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Or just a companion figure anyway.

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Yes, yeah.

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I think too, because there's a diverse group of people on board

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the bus.

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So you've got beer who's wearing chinos and has a goatee and stuff

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and kind of reads is very middle class and kind of conservative.

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And then you have a professor, you know, with a young assistant

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who you kind of think, well, he's going to be more likely to

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listen to the doctor as a sort of fellow scientist and a fellow

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intellectual.

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And of course, he also turns on the doctrine.

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So does she.

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It's when D turns on him.

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I think that's the worst thing because she's so sweet and they had

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been getting on so well.

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And she's kind of the last person that you would expect to do

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that.

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It's, uh, it's a bit of a gut punch and it, it really, I made some

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crack about it being a bus full of daily mail readers.

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And I was really just thinking that that's, that's val and beef

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but everyone on that bus turns on the doctor eventually.

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And that's kind of the heartbreaking thing, that given sufficient

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pressure and fear that we all just start turning on each other.

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Even the guardian readers.

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I can fully believe the Midnight Creature is a daily Mail

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columnist.

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But it's interesting because with David Trouton's professor

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character.

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I mean, you do often get a scientist in Doctor Who, who is

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distrustful, the doctor doesn't believe him, because I know best.

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I've been studying this all my life.

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Exactly, exactly.

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Inclusive access. of Professor Stalman, actually.

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I was thinking of Professor Windsor.

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There are so many.

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But he does play, he does fulfil that role, but he also fulfils

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the role quite elegantly of comic relief.

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Because he's the, you know, the upright kind of professor who's

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probably had tenure that little bit too long and is only focussed

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on one particular aspect.

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And, you know, the last paper he published was 20 years ago and so

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on.

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And so he sort of oozes that, but it doesn't take that over the

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top.

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Yeah, it's these people who are in positions where they're meant

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to be open-minded, but are actually incredibly more.

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Exactly.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So, one of the things that this episode, The Well Does, is It

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Positions Itself, is a sequel to Midnight, and the obvious 1st

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thing that basically everyone said was, it's not as good as

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midnight.

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Now, it's not a comparison that had to be made, although maybe it

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was inevitable.

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It's inevitable to be made.

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But it didn't have to be made.

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Like, this didn't have to position itself as a sequel to

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Midnight.

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But I guess the similarities between it and midnight were enough

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that that comparison was going to be made.

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At the risk of splitting hairs, sequel is not necessarily the

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right word.

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It's not like seeds of death is a sequel to the Ice Wars.

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It's the return of the alien, the midnight creature, whatever you

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want to call it.

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Or is it?

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I would actually argue, I don't know whether it is the return of

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the midnight creature, but we can come to that.

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You know, the obvious thing to say is that very little of Doctor

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Who actually manages to be better than midnight.

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I would contend.

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And so, oh, come on.

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Well, you know, maybe Revenge of the Cyberman part two.

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It's very top tier.

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Yeah, of the Rani.

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So that was kind of, you know, that was sort of more or less

252
00:12:31.500 --> 00:12:32.700
inevitable.

253
00:12:32.759 --> 00:12:37.799
What I said on 2 gab on the 2nd great and bountiful human empire

254
00:12:37.799 --> 00:12:40.620
was that it was kind of a mood piece, I think.

255
00:12:40.740 --> 00:12:46.379
In a way, this is this era's version of something that we've been

256
00:12:46.379 --> 00:12:50.340
doing ever since the new series came back, perhaps starting with

257
00:12:50.340 --> 00:12:51.539
the Impossible Planet.

258
00:12:51.600 --> 00:12:55.440
I think the simplest explanation for why the well exists and what

259
00:12:55.440 --> 00:12:58.799
it is, is that we'd reached that stage in the season, where we

260
00:12:58.799 --> 00:13:00.360
needed a midnight style story.

261
00:13:00.419 --> 00:13:03.419
And that's happened like all throughout the new series.

262
00:13:03.480 --> 00:13:05.700
And so you would go back to last series, for example, and you

263
00:13:05.700 --> 00:13:09.240
reach that stage of the season where you want a moody atmospheric

264
00:13:09.240 --> 00:13:10.440
piece like 73 yards.

265
00:13:10.500 --> 00:13:14.940
So it makes sense that if you're doing that kind of story, why not

266
00:13:14.940 --> 00:13:18.419
just do a sequel or something which refers to one of the most

267
00:13:18.419 --> 00:13:20.399
successful iterations of that story?

268
00:13:20.460 --> 00:13:24.659
See, it seems to me that what happens in the Impossible Planet is

269
00:13:24.659 --> 00:13:27.779
something that's only available to a Doctor Who that's aware of

270
00:13:27.779 --> 00:13:33.720
things like, say, alien or event horizon, where you have a kind of

271
00:13:33.720 --> 00:13:37.320
science fiction horror, where in the classic series, when we went

272
00:13:37.320 --> 00:13:40.620
to the future, and when we had people with guns, and I'm thinking

273
00:13:40.620 --> 00:13:45.659
say, the sabred era, we're always fighting rubber monsters or

274
00:13:45.659 --> 00:13:49.919
robots or, you know, cybermen or Daleks or Silurians.

275
00:13:49.980 --> 00:13:55.440
We're not fighting the devil or a disembodied malevolence or

276
00:13:55.440 --> 00:13:59.519
something like that, that this is a new thing that the new series

277
00:13:59.519 --> 00:14:00.840
kind of has to itself.

278
00:14:00.840 --> 00:14:05.639
And, you know, I'm thinking about things after that, like, 42, like

279
00:14:05.639 --> 00:14:08.700
sleep no more while blue yonder in its own way.

280
00:14:08.759 --> 00:14:10.379
Yeah, yeah, yeah. oxygen.

281
00:14:10.440 --> 00:14:11.460
Yeah.

282
00:14:11.519 --> 00:14:15.539
That this is a different thing, that this is a kind of mashup of 2

283
00:14:15.539 --> 00:14:18.360
genres of horror and science fiction.

284
00:14:18.419 --> 00:14:23.100
I wonder how much of that is to do with the fact that I remember

285
00:14:23.100 --> 00:14:26.279
Russell's original concern when he brought the series back was

286
00:14:26.279 --> 00:14:29.700
that he didn't want the general audience to feel it was people

287
00:14:29.700 --> 00:14:32.100
shooting at rubber monsters or whatever.

288
00:14:32.159 --> 00:14:35.100
Which is one of the reasons why I think the 1st series was so it

289
00:14:35.100 --> 00:14:37.200
was completely set on earth, basically, apart from a space

290
00:14:37.200 --> 00:14:37.679
station.

291
00:14:37.740 --> 00:14:42.120
And I think when he does go offworld in the form of something like

292
00:14:42.120 --> 00:14:46.259
New Earth and then the Impossible Planet, you're trying to take

293
00:14:46.259 --> 00:14:51.059
the traditional Dr. Hillemans away because he's worried that they

294
00:14:51.059 --> 00:14:52.080
will appear stupid.

295
00:14:52.139 --> 00:14:54.419
Whereas that's basically what the original series was.

296
00:14:54.480 --> 00:14:57.600
You know, right, from the 2nd story where you go to Scaro and the

297
00:14:57.600 --> 00:14:58.080
Daleks.

298
00:14:58.139 --> 00:15:00.360
It's completely unreal, unnatural.

299
00:15:00.419 --> 00:15:03.179
There's nothing sort of sensible about this. which I think is

300
00:15:03.179 --> 00:15:07.139
great, but I think maybe trying to use almost like mythological

301
00:15:07.139 --> 00:15:10.139
elements to the futuristic stories.

302
00:15:10.200 --> 00:15:11.700
Is he trying to ground it a bit more?

303
00:15:11.759 --> 00:15:13.980
I think there's 2 things there.

304
00:15:14.039 --> 00:15:18.480
One, Russell's version of the future is something that he doesn't

305
00:15:18.480 --> 00:15:21.840
want to see people in coveralls and uniforms and that kind of

306
00:15:21.840 --> 00:15:22.019
thing.

307
00:15:22.080 --> 00:15:23.879
He wants it space genics.

308
00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:27.000
He wants it to be recognisably people as they are now.

309
00:15:27.059 --> 00:15:31.620
And so to get something where you make it even more unknowable and

310
00:15:31.620 --> 00:15:33.539
weird and that vein of Doc II.

311
00:15:33.600 --> 00:15:37.740
It's always when he pushes it out, it's always the bounds of the

312
00:15:37.740 --> 00:15:41.340
natural universe or going beyond to something that's really weird

313
00:15:41.340 --> 00:15:45.899
and other, almost to differentiate that from being a humanity in

314
00:15:45.899 --> 00:15:47.279
the galaxy as we know it.

315
00:15:47.340 --> 00:15:51.659
I also think, speaking of Impossible Planet, that Matt Jones, who

316
00:15:51.659 --> 00:15:55.740
wrote those 2 episodes, is the 1st one to say, right, what we need

317
00:15:55.740 --> 00:15:58.740
to do something really weird and unsettling in New Doctor Who is

318
00:15:58.740 --> 00:16:01.919
to go back to that model from the Hinchcliffe years of an ancient

319
00:16:01.919 --> 00:16:05.700
evil awakening, which is what the Impossible Planner is, and

320
00:16:05.700 --> 00:16:08.879
that's really what midnight is as well, even if it's not by so

321
00:16:08.879 --> 00:16:09.299
many words.

322
00:16:09.360 --> 00:16:10.980
And this, I think.

323
00:16:10.980 --> 00:16:15.659
In Wild Blue Yonder, we're at the very edge of the known universe

324
00:16:15.659 --> 00:16:18.600
just next to where underworld is happening, I imagine.

325
00:16:20.100 --> 00:16:25.559
In the well we're half a 1000000 years into the future, in the

326
00:16:25.559 --> 00:16:29.039
impossible planet, it's called the impossible planet after the

327
00:16:29.039 --> 00:16:34.139
fact that it's a planet in orbit around a black hole.

328
00:16:34.200 --> 00:16:38.879
So again, you know, like the ultimate kind of liminal space, I

329
00:16:38.879 --> 00:16:39.120
think.

330
00:16:39.179 --> 00:16:43.320
And so... something like waters of Mars, that kind of ancient evil

331
00:16:43.320 --> 00:16:46.440
that unknowable evil under the surface reawakening.

332
00:16:46.500 --> 00:16:47.220
Yeah, yeah.

333
00:16:47.279 --> 00:16:50.159
And I mean, the striking thing, I think, that everyone says about

334
00:16:50.159 --> 00:16:51.179
the impossible planet.

335
00:16:51.240 --> 00:16:54.240
We've done a few bases under siege this season.

336
00:16:54.299 --> 00:17:00.659
The impossible planet, I think, does what is maybe the best base

337
00:17:00.659 --> 00:17:01.679
under siege.

338
00:17:01.799 --> 00:17:03.059
Magnificent.

339
00:17:03.120 --> 00:17:04.019
Certainly.

340
00:17:04.140 --> 00:17:06.839
Yeah, certainly the best of the new series, but maybe the best

341
00:17:06.839 --> 00:17:07.140
one.

342
00:17:07.200 --> 00:17:08.160
I think it's great now.

343
00:17:08.220 --> 00:17:09.960
You know, just at all.

344
00:17:10.019 --> 00:17:15.180
Because it has such identifiable characters.

345
00:17:15.240 --> 00:17:18.779
You come away from that knowing the names of all of those people.

346
00:17:18.839 --> 00:17:22.619
We've talked already this season about the death of Scooty

347
00:17:22.619 --> 00:17:25.559
Minister, the way that that hits.

348
00:17:25.619 --> 00:17:28.380
A lot of people get killed in the impossible planet.

349
00:17:28.440 --> 00:17:32.880
And each death means something, but the 1st death means something

350
00:17:32.880 --> 00:17:35.099
really quite particular, I think.

351
00:17:35.160 --> 00:17:37.980
At the risk of getting onto my hobby horse, I think one of the

352
00:17:37.980 --> 00:17:41.039
other reasons that the Impossible Planet 2 part is so successful

353
00:17:41.039 --> 00:17:45.000
is because it most closely apes the structure of a classic series

354
00:17:45.000 --> 00:17:49.079
4 parter insofar as the fact that you've got 90 minutes of story

355
00:17:49.079 --> 00:17:49.559
there.

356
00:17:49.619 --> 00:17:52.259
So you can actually get to know the cast.

357
00:17:52.319 --> 00:17:56.640
You can have enough cast that it feels like there's a range of

358
00:17:56.640 --> 00:17:59.880
people there and you can have them, you know, killed off one by

359
00:17:59.880 --> 00:18:02.099
one in that very classic series.

360
00:18:02.160 --> 00:18:04.740
Yeah, you split up the doctor and rose so that they're leading

361
00:18:04.740 --> 00:18:07.140
different plot strands, you go from place to place.

362
00:18:07.200 --> 00:18:11.220
Yeah, and unlike what so many of the later multi-episode stories

363
00:18:11.220 --> 00:18:15.720
of the new series do, it doesn't basically just have a 2nd episode

364
00:18:15.720 --> 00:18:19.200
which is essentially just a sequel to the 1st episode. as actually

365
00:18:19.200 --> 00:18:23.700
a 90 minute drama, which is sliced in half with a nice upwell of

366
00:18:23.700 --> 00:18:26.940
tension and drama and a cliffhanger, a proper actual cliffhanger.

367
00:18:27.000 --> 00:18:28.380
I think that's one of the other reasons that works so well.

368
00:18:28.440 --> 00:18:31.200
Yeah, I think you've hit the nail on the head there, Simon.

369
00:18:31.259 --> 00:18:32.339
It is about the characters.

370
00:18:32.400 --> 00:18:36.119
The fact that in one line, you know, did she ever forgive you, we

371
00:18:36.119 --> 00:18:39.299
understand exactly what Mr. Jefferson is about and, you know, his

372
00:18:39.299 --> 00:18:41.339
death hits so much harder for it.

373
00:18:41.400 --> 00:18:44.759
And I think that's maybe one of the great strengths of Russell in

374
00:18:44.759 --> 00:18:49.380
his 1st era, where we have these characters that come, you know

375
00:18:49.380 --> 00:18:52.740
that are sketched out almost in a thumbnail fashion, but in a way

376
00:18:52.740 --> 00:18:53.700
that's recognisable.

377
00:18:53.759 --> 00:18:55.980
And maybe that's not always there.

378
00:18:56.039 --> 00:18:58.980
And I think in this episode, in particular, you know, there are

379
00:18:58.980 --> 00:19:02.640
troopers who are given numbers rather than names and there's

380
00:19:02.640 --> 00:19:06.180
probably only two, maybe 3 that we get to know to some degree.

381
00:19:06.299 --> 00:19:09.900
And maybe that is a bit of a contrast between something like

382
00:19:09.900 --> 00:19:12.839
midnight or the impossible planet and the Satan pit and something

383
00:19:12.839 --> 00:19:13.440
like the well.

384
00:19:13.559 --> 00:19:16.740
A base under siege always lives and dies by its characters.

385
00:19:16.799 --> 00:19:20.099
So I can't help comparing it to something like the rebel flesh

386
00:19:20.099 --> 00:19:24.900
where every character is utterly forgettable. and is basically

387
00:19:24.900 --> 00:19:28.440
defined by one performance or character tick.

388
00:19:28.500 --> 00:19:31.859
Whereas in this, I did feel like we got to know quite a lot of

389
00:19:31.859 --> 00:19:35.759
those soldiers, even though they were always doing their work

390
00:19:35.759 --> 00:19:36.359
things.

391
00:19:36.420 --> 00:19:38.160
And the one I'm thinking of in particular.

392
00:19:38.279 --> 00:19:40.920
I mean, Christopher Chung's character is very good, but he plays a

393
00:19:40.920 --> 00:19:44.160
role which is kind of has happened.

394
00:19:44.640 --> 00:19:46.859
Yeah, it's happened like I can think an Empress of Mars.

395
00:19:46.920 --> 00:19:50.279
There's an exactly same character who fulfils that function, but

396
00:19:50.279 --> 00:19:54.839
Mo, I thought, was really, really effective in just being kind of

397
00:19:54.839 --> 00:19:58.380
a regular character with a performance that brought a lot to it

398
00:19:58.380 --> 00:20:00.180
which distinguished her from the others.

399
00:20:00.240 --> 00:20:04.859
And I think Shire is absolutely extraordinary.

400
00:20:05.700 --> 00:20:07.680
So she's Keelan Dunn.

401
00:20:07.740 --> 00:20:11.759
I don't think I've seen her in anything before, but she brings so

402
00:20:11.759 --> 00:20:13.920
much humanity to that role.

403
00:20:13.980 --> 00:20:18.059
And there's a bit at the very beginning of the episode where she

404
00:20:18.059 --> 00:20:20.880
says hope is irrelevant.

405
00:20:20.940 --> 00:20:24.660
And then Cassio, which is Christopher Chung's character, kind of

406
00:20:24.660 --> 00:20:28.019
looks at her in horror and you sort of think, oh, okay, she's

407
00:20:28.019 --> 00:20:30.599
going to be the hard bitten one who doesn't care about anyone.

408
00:20:30.660 --> 00:20:31.799
Transigent based.

409
00:20:31.859 --> 00:20:33.119
Yeah, she's going to be terrible.

410
00:20:33.180 --> 00:20:39.119
And just you watch the warmth between her and Shooty in that

411
00:20:39.119 --> 00:20:40.799
performance all the way through.

412
00:20:40.799 --> 00:20:44.579
And the way that they connect with one another.

413
00:20:44.640 --> 00:20:49.859
And then it turns out that her last line at the very end, you know

414
00:20:49.859 --> 00:20:54.000
she's remembering being a girl on Lombardia and running through

415
00:20:54.000 --> 00:20:58.259
the sort of burning thing past giant dinosaur skulls, which

416
00:20:58.259 --> 00:20:59.339
awesome.

417
00:21:00.900 --> 00:21:05.099
She says that what she's always striven to do is to do her duty

418
00:21:05.099 --> 00:21:09.539
and her duty is to bring hope and hope.

419
00:21:09.900 --> 00:21:14.339
Again, that's Russell back to being able to sketch in a character

420
00:21:14.339 --> 00:21:20.579
really very briefly in just a few moments and being able to trust

421
00:21:20.579 --> 00:21:24.180
a really incredible actor, I think, to bring that character to

422
00:21:24.180 --> 00:21:24.539
life.

423
00:21:24.599 --> 00:21:26.519
I think she's really great.

424
00:21:26.579 --> 00:21:30.059
And what's unexpected about her is that there's a moment of humour

425
00:21:30.119 --> 00:21:33.420
where they're all in the room with the well, and the doctor says

426
00:21:33.420 --> 00:21:35.460
something to her, I can't quite remember the line, and you expect

427
00:21:35.460 --> 00:21:39.359
her to come back with her with a sort of hardbitten, intransigent

428
00:21:39.359 --> 00:21:41.940
base commander line, and she comes back with a moment of humour

429
00:21:41.940 --> 00:21:44.279
and you think, oh, okay, you're not who I thought you were going

430
00:21:44.279 --> 00:21:44.519
to be.

431
00:21:44.579 --> 00:21:45.960
Yes, that's kind of the turning point.

432
00:21:46.019 --> 00:21:49.740
She does look at him with sort of considerable warmth, I think.

433
00:21:49.799 --> 00:21:51.779
Like she's really, really quite great.

434
00:21:51.839 --> 00:21:54.000
I mean, she's the MVP event.

435
00:21:54.059 --> 00:21:54.599
Yeah, absolutely.

436
00:21:54.660 --> 00:21:55.859
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

437
00:21:55.920 --> 00:21:58.859
I think that's really added to as well because in between those 2

438
00:21:58.859 --> 00:22:01.859
moments of, you know, hope is relevant and then, you know, she

439
00:22:01.859 --> 00:22:02.819
brings hope at the end.

440
00:22:02.880 --> 00:22:06.420
There's a turn and it's Cassio and he says to her, hope is

441
00:22:06.420 --> 00:22:07.019
irrelevant.

442
00:22:07.079 --> 00:22:10.680
He's quoting her and undermining her authority, which, again, just

443
00:22:10.680 --> 00:22:13.740
sort of gives us that extra layer around this character to sort of

444
00:22:13.740 --> 00:22:17.519
say, well, actually, she says this as perhaps an transient base

445
00:22:17.519 --> 00:22:20.339
commander or a hardened space bitch, but actually there's

446
00:22:20.339 --> 00:22:22.559
something deeper underneath and we get to see that throughout

447
00:22:22.559 --> 00:22:25.500
through the humour, as you say, but also that last moment, which I

448
00:22:25.500 --> 00:22:27.000
think is beautifully done.

449
00:22:27.059 --> 00:22:29.759
You know, there's that sort of wonderful voiceover.

450
00:22:29.819 --> 00:22:31.859
We get the flashback to her, you know, running through the

451
00:22:31.859 --> 00:22:32.460
wildlands.

452
00:22:32.519 --> 00:22:33.059
I think it is.

453
00:22:33.119 --> 00:22:36.240
I just think it's superb and then ultimately to sacrifice

454
00:22:36.240 --> 00:22:36.900
glorious.

455
00:22:37.019 --> 00:22:40.859
And because you do see the vulnerability in her performance, the

456
00:22:40.859 --> 00:22:46.259
moment when she chooses to kill Cassio, because obviously he's

457
00:22:46.259 --> 00:22:49.680
threats to the expedition, is actually quite heartfelt, like you

458
00:22:49.680 --> 00:22:50.339
feel sorry for.

459
00:22:50.400 --> 00:22:53.039
Well, you feel the fact that she didn't really want to do this, but

460
00:22:53.039 --> 00:22:53.579
she had to.

461
00:22:53.700 --> 00:22:58.740
I want to just divert for a 2nd and talk about that scene because

462
00:22:58.740 --> 00:23:00.960
I think that that's an incredible scene.

463
00:23:01.019 --> 00:23:08.819
Because we have Hanno, who is the 1st person to die, Christopher

464
00:23:08.819 --> 00:23:15.900
Chung sends her around behind Alice and then she's hurled up into

465
00:23:15.900 --> 00:23:16.319
the air.

466
00:23:16.380 --> 00:23:19.619
And again, it's this incredible thing too, the simplicity of how

467
00:23:19.619 --> 00:23:24.119
they're killed that they are just hurled up into the air and we

468
00:23:24.119 --> 00:23:25.500
get that line.

469
00:23:25.559 --> 00:23:26.819
Is it the doctor who says it?

470
00:23:26.880 --> 00:23:28.440
Look, it looks like he broke his neck.

471
00:23:28.500 --> 00:23:32.519
Oh, it looks like he broke everything when he finds one of the

472
00:23:32.519 --> 00:23:33.599
bodies on the base.

473
00:23:33.660 --> 00:23:36.420
And so they're just killed by being hurled into the air and

474
00:23:36.420 --> 00:23:37.200
smashed.

475
00:23:37.259 --> 00:23:40.440
And it like, that's so visceral and so real.

476
00:23:40.500 --> 00:23:44.160
It's not the usual sort of Doctor Who, you know, being shot in the

477
00:23:44.160 --> 00:23:48.180
stomach and clutching your neck and boring yourself gradually to

478
00:23:48.180 --> 00:23:48.779
the ground.

479
00:23:48.839 --> 00:23:51.960
It's a proper kind of Israel thing.

480
00:23:52.019 --> 00:23:57.000
And 4 people are just killed one after the other. very effective.

481
00:23:57.000 --> 00:23:57.599
Incredible.

482
00:23:57.660 --> 00:24:00.900
And it's so well done because the director, and it's Amanda

483
00:24:00.900 --> 00:24:05.640
Branchi who did Lux, and she has the people fly up into the air

484
00:24:05.640 --> 00:24:12.480
after we see either Chung or the character themselves occluded by

485
00:24:12.480 --> 00:24:13.559
Alice in the middle.

486
00:24:13.619 --> 00:24:19.079
And so selling that idea, it's this brilliant idea that if you are

487
00:24:19.079 --> 00:24:24.720
behind Alice, you'll be killed, but behind is determined by the

488
00:24:24.720 --> 00:24:27.359
subjectivity of the observer.

489
00:24:27.420 --> 00:24:30.660
So everyone else is looking at the ground, the doctor tells

490
00:24:30.660 --> 00:24:31.680
everyone to look at the ground.

491
00:24:31.740 --> 00:24:33.599
And so it's where Chung is looking.

492
00:24:33.660 --> 00:24:38.460
And so as he moves around, he's hurling these people into the air

493
00:24:38.460 --> 00:24:38.940
himself.

494
00:24:39.000 --> 00:24:41.400
And so Shire has to kill him.

495
00:24:41.460 --> 00:24:43.680
He's milling about in panic and confusion.

496
00:24:43.740 --> 00:24:45.720
Everyone he's sealed dies.

497
00:24:45.779 --> 00:24:46.680
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

498
00:24:46.740 --> 00:24:49.319
And it's just done so quickly and then suddenly the rest of the

499
00:24:49.319 --> 00:24:51.960
scene is done with just bodies scattered around the room.

500
00:24:52.019 --> 00:24:55.920
It's really something there's 6 dead people in that room at the

501
00:24:55.920 --> 00:24:56.640
end of the scene.

502
00:24:56.700 --> 00:24:57.779
It's amazing.

503
00:24:57.839 --> 00:25:01.019
Amanda brought you is one of these gold directors for Doctor Who

504
00:25:01.019 --> 00:25:04.440
who can successfully pull up different styles of episodes.

505
00:25:04.500 --> 00:25:09.000
So Lux and the Well are quite different and I think both equally

506
00:25:09.000 --> 00:25:10.559
successful in their production.

507
00:25:10.619 --> 00:25:13.259
And I really appreciate this.

508
00:25:13.319 --> 00:25:18.000
Those very high shots what she has of that room with Alice in the

509
00:25:18.000 --> 00:25:20.339
middle, where it's almost like the characters are on a clock

510
00:25:20.339 --> 00:25:20.759
face.

511
00:25:20.819 --> 00:25:22.140
You can see them ranged around her.

512
00:25:22.200 --> 00:25:23.160
That's very effective.

513
00:25:23.220 --> 00:25:27.660
In fact, it's the same because we give Belinda the job of

514
00:25:27.660 --> 00:25:29.039
explaining what's happening.

515
00:25:29.099 --> 00:25:31.380
She works out what's happening before the doctor does.

516
00:25:31.440 --> 00:25:36.900
And so she explains about, you know, you move behind it and and

517
00:25:36.900 --> 00:25:40.559
you die and she's got the little nuts and she's putting them on

518
00:25:40.559 --> 00:25:40.920
the ground.

519
00:25:40.980 --> 00:25:44.640
And then once she explains that and the doctor says it happens at

520
00:25:44.640 --> 00:25:48.599
midnight, then we get the shot from above, showing us the space.

521
00:25:48.660 --> 00:25:51.839
Yeah, yeah, the clock face, that circular, and it's reinforced by

522
00:25:51.839 --> 00:25:55.680
the fact that Alice is sitting in the middle of a circular shape

523
00:25:55.680 --> 00:25:57.539
on the ground in a circular room.

524
00:25:57.599 --> 00:26:03.359
I think, too, that Rose Ailing Ellis is pretty incredible in this

525
00:26:03.359 --> 00:26:04.259
as well.

526
00:26:04.380 --> 00:26:10.259
A friend of mine at work had actually hopes that she would be the

527
00:26:10.259 --> 00:26:15.539
doctor's companion in season one before Millie Gibson was

528
00:26:15.539 --> 00:26:17.819
announced because she was aware of her.

529
00:26:17.819 --> 00:26:21.539
Yeah, they're actually, they're slightly parallel in their careers

530
00:26:21.539 --> 00:26:22.859
Millie and Rose.

531
00:26:22.920 --> 00:26:26.039
But I will just say we probably aren't aware of it, but Rose

532
00:26:26.039 --> 00:26:30.599
Ailing Ellis is a huge star in Britain because not only did she

533
00:26:30.599 --> 00:26:34.259
have a breakout role in EastEnders for 3 years, where she was

534
00:26:34.259 --> 00:26:35.579
loaded for her performance.

535
00:26:35.640 --> 00:26:38.880
She also won strictly come dancing.

536
00:26:38.940 --> 00:26:39.779
Really?

537
00:26:39.779 --> 00:26:45.359
That is a shortcut to incredible thing in written, like you are

538
00:26:45.359 --> 00:26:46.980
known to the person in the street.

539
00:26:47.039 --> 00:26:48.900
And so to get her for this role.

540
00:26:48.960 --> 00:26:51.779
She's also lauded for her stage work, Simon, she's a Lawrence

541
00:26:51.779 --> 00:26:53.039
Olivier nominee.

542
00:26:53.099 --> 00:26:53.339
Yeah.

543
00:26:53.400 --> 00:26:56.039
So to get her for this role was a big get.

544
00:26:56.220 --> 00:27:01.380
She is interviewed in the unleashed, which is something that I've

545
00:27:01.380 --> 00:27:05.700
never really watched, but she was talking about how excited she

546
00:27:05.700 --> 00:27:08.220
was doing her 1st science fiction thing.

547
00:27:08.279 --> 00:27:11.579
You know, she'd done lots of just sort of normal stuff and now he

548
00:27:11.579 --> 00:27:14.759
or she is in space, you know, and there's monsters and stuff.

549
00:27:14.819 --> 00:27:16.380
But in office EastEnders.

550
00:27:18.660 --> 00:27:25.319
She is so vulnerable and so, but then there are moments, you know

551
00:27:25.319 --> 00:27:27.059
because she knows what happened.

552
00:27:27.119 --> 00:27:28.740
She knows what they've deduced.

553
00:27:28.799 --> 00:27:32.519
She knows what happens to it, how it passes from one person to

554
00:27:32.519 --> 00:27:35.220
another, you know, how it got to be behind her.

555
00:27:35.279 --> 00:27:36.299
All of that sort of thing.

556
00:27:36.359 --> 00:27:37.680
She knows all of that.

557
00:27:37.740 --> 00:27:41.279
But she's concealing it and she makes it clear to the audience.

558
00:27:41.339 --> 00:27:43.200
I think that she's concealing something.

559
00:27:43.259 --> 00:27:45.960
But in spite of that, we don't hate her.

560
00:27:46.019 --> 00:27:47.400
We never dislike her.

561
00:27:47.460 --> 00:27:50.460
And the stuff about her daughter and things.

562
00:27:50.519 --> 00:27:53.339
You know all of that just works incredibly well.

563
00:27:53.400 --> 00:27:54.660
She wants to go home.

564
00:27:54.720 --> 00:27:58.380
It's an incredible performance, I think, you know, that line about

565
00:27:58.380 --> 00:27:59.880
you think I'm a special idiot.

566
00:27:59.940 --> 00:28:00.720
I'm just the last.

567
00:28:00.779 --> 00:28:03.900
And, you know, the fact that she's deaf as an actor, but also as a

568
00:28:03.900 --> 00:28:07.140
character basically saves her in the sense that, you know, she

569
00:28:07.140 --> 00:28:08.160
can't hear the whispering.

570
00:28:08.220 --> 00:28:11.759
But to go back to that scene, the way that it's choreographed, I

571
00:28:11.759 --> 00:28:15.240
think you're absolutely spot on Nathan, but the thing that sold it

572
00:28:15.240 --> 00:28:18.180
for me as to why this shouldn't have been, say, for instance, the

573
00:28:18.180 --> 00:28:21.059
Mara, an evil that couldn't see itself when you have the mercury

574
00:28:21.059 --> 00:28:24.180
falling behind it, or something like the angels, where, you know

575
00:28:24.180 --> 00:28:26.640
where they, upon the 2nd appearance, at least they break the necks

576
00:28:26.640 --> 00:28:27.359
of their victims.

577
00:28:27.420 --> 00:28:29.640
The thing that sold it for me was that line.

578
00:28:29.700 --> 00:28:32.700
If this was a clock phase, you would die at midnight.

579
00:28:32.759 --> 00:28:33.960
And I just think that's perfect.

580
00:28:34.019 --> 00:28:36.900
That's more than enough right there to justify the reuse of this

581
00:28:36.900 --> 00:28:38.400
monster and the reinterpretation of it.

582
00:28:38.400 --> 00:28:40.799
Because, as you said before, assignment, it's not the same

583
00:28:40.799 --> 00:28:45.539
qualities or the same MO as the Midnight Monster that we see that

584
00:28:45.539 --> 00:28:46.380
it has no name.

585
00:28:46.440 --> 00:28:47.759
He has evolved.

586
00:28:47.819 --> 00:28:48.480
And that's okay.

587
00:28:48.539 --> 00:28:51.660
And I think the reason why I think I absolutely brought into it

588
00:28:51.660 --> 00:28:54.960
was that moment, was that scene beautifully choreographed

589
00:28:54.960 --> 00:28:57.240
incredibly played. you know, Alice is a character.

590
00:28:57.299 --> 00:29:01.319
It's unbelievably sympathetic, but that line about if it was a

591
00:29:01.319 --> 00:29:03.960
clock face, you would be dead at midnight just was like sold right

592
00:29:03.960 --> 00:29:04.140
there.

593
00:29:04.200 --> 00:29:07.140
I can never hear the word midnight in reference to Doctor Who

594
00:29:07.140 --> 00:29:08.519
without thinking of nighter.

595
00:29:08.579 --> 00:29:09.839
Midnight general.

596
00:29:09.900 --> 00:29:11.759
The order specifies.

597
00:29:22.680 --> 00:29:28.440
A claim that I want to make is that this is, perhaps, maybe even

598
00:29:28.440 --> 00:29:34.980
more than Time of Angels, Doctor Who doing aliens to a previous

599
00:29:34.980 --> 00:29:36.059
alien.

600
00:29:36.119 --> 00:29:43.619
So remember Alien is the creature set loose on just normal kind of

601
00:29:43.619 --> 00:29:44.940
working people?

602
00:29:45.000 --> 00:29:46.559
They're just normal people.

603
00:29:46.619 --> 00:29:47.700
They're identifiable.

604
00:29:47.759 --> 00:29:51.480
They're eating Chinese food, you know, they're slacking off, all

605
00:29:51.480 --> 00:29:52.259
of that sort of thing.

606
00:29:52.319 --> 00:29:53.819
They're just kind of ordinary people.

607
00:29:53.880 --> 00:29:57.480
They're not quite the people that we have in the Crusade of 50, but

608
00:29:57.480 --> 00:29:58.740
they're ordinary people.

609
00:29:58.799 --> 00:30:03.000
And now we have them against troops.

610
00:30:03.119 --> 00:30:06.660
So we have troops coming down and the scale of it is greater.

611
00:30:06.720 --> 00:30:11.339
And in fact, them doing the dropship thing and landing on a base

612
00:30:11.339 --> 00:30:17.339
that has been ravaged by the aliens is very, very similar to

613
00:30:17.339 --> 00:30:19.079
aliens, I think.

614
00:30:19.799 --> 00:30:24.420
And so while there are characters among the troops.

615
00:30:24.480 --> 00:30:29.940
I think that giving them numbers is entirely there just to get the

616
00:30:29.940 --> 00:30:31.859
final thing to work.

617
00:30:31.920 --> 00:30:34.500
So the number of people on the left.

618
00:30:34.619 --> 00:30:34.859
Yeah.

619
00:30:34.920 --> 00:30:35.400
That's right.

620
00:30:35.460 --> 00:30:38.039
So that we're always aware how many people there are.

621
00:30:38.099 --> 00:30:41.039
Because we keep having that dialogue, don't we?

622
00:30:41.099 --> 00:30:44.880
Belinda says you were 11 people and then the doctor and I came

623
00:30:44.880 --> 00:30:46.140
along to make it 13.

624
00:30:47.160 --> 00:30:51.240
We have some discussion of how there's 7 people left, including

625
00:30:51.240 --> 00:30:51.660
Alice.

626
00:30:51.720 --> 00:30:55.200
Like we're always given the number of people that they're are, and

627
00:30:55.200 --> 00:30:59.279
the troopers have numbers to remind us to kind of count them.

628
00:30:59.279 --> 00:31:02.880
In the closing credits, just about all of them in the great

629
00:31:02.880 --> 00:31:06.420
Russell T. Davis tradition, have 1st and last names.

630
00:31:06.480 --> 00:31:10.920
So Russell always says that when he creates parts, in order to

631
00:31:10.920 --> 00:31:14.400
make them look bigger in an actor's resume.

632
00:31:15.240 --> 00:31:16.799
It gives them all last names.

633
00:31:16.799 --> 00:31:22.019
And we played with that in Lux, where the fan character said they

634
00:31:22.019 --> 00:31:25.500
were the sort of people that didn't get last names.

635
00:31:25.500 --> 00:31:28.859
And then they do have last names in the closing credits.

636
00:31:28.920 --> 00:31:31.500
Look, closing credits isn't full of man in restaurants.

637
00:31:31.500 --> 00:31:32.579
Yeah, yeah.

638
00:31:32.640 --> 00:31:34.559
But what about poor old Paul Casey?

639
00:31:34.619 --> 00:31:35.700
It has no name.

640
00:31:35.759 --> 00:31:39.119
Paul Casey is credited as it has no name.

641
00:31:39.180 --> 00:31:40.559
It's brilliant.

642
00:31:40.799 --> 00:31:44.519
Which also is what they were going to call Salvix before.

643
00:31:46.740 --> 00:31:49.259
You know, so they all have names.

644
00:31:49.380 --> 00:31:54.539
There's Kai, there's Cassio, there's Hanno, there's Shire, like

645
00:31:54.539 --> 00:31:57.660
they do have names, although not all of them are in dialogue.

646
00:31:57.720 --> 00:32:00.779
I also mentioned in the 2nd great and bountiful Human Empire.

647
00:32:00.839 --> 00:32:03.900
It's, is it Gaz Chaudhary?

648
00:32:03.960 --> 00:32:08.759
The guy who plays the guy who seconds Christopher Chung's red coat

649
00:32:08.759 --> 00:32:15.660
is, in fact, a former Paralympian playing, he's a basketballer.

650
00:32:15.720 --> 00:32:20.400
And so he's sort of reasonably famous and I didn't see it the 1st

651
00:32:20.400 --> 00:32:23.099
time I was watching, but he has a prosthetic.

652
00:32:23.160 --> 00:32:25.079
Yeah, yeah, he's got a prosthetic lady.

653
00:32:25.140 --> 00:32:27.000
The only time I saw it was when he was killed.

654
00:32:27.059 --> 00:32:27.779
Yes.

655
00:32:27.839 --> 00:32:28.559
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

656
00:32:28.619 --> 00:32:32.460
But you do see him walking in sort of full, like, you know, you

657
00:32:32.460 --> 00:32:34.680
see his whole body walking just before that.

658
00:32:34.740 --> 00:32:38.099
And I think he's extraordinarily good as well and also kind of

659
00:32:38.099 --> 00:32:39.000
well drawn.

660
00:32:39.119 --> 00:32:43.380
I think, too, Russell has learned, like the way that we got the

661
00:32:43.380 --> 00:32:47.700
characters given names and those names are used in dialogue and we

662
00:32:47.700 --> 00:32:51.660
know everyone's name in the impossible planet, that's one thing

663
00:32:51.660 --> 00:32:56.220
that you can do, but if you have a diverse enough cast, you can

664
00:32:56.220 --> 00:33:00.180
just rely on the actors to distinguish the characters from each

665
00:33:00.180 --> 00:33:03.059
other, even if you don't learn the names, I think.

666
00:33:03.119 --> 00:33:07.140
And also sidebar, a lot of it depends on the companion's

667
00:33:07.140 --> 00:33:10.259
relationship to these characters to kind of define them.

668
00:33:10.319 --> 00:33:14.160
And Belinda has a great role in this episode.

669
00:33:14.220 --> 00:33:19.680
I'm so grateful that Varada's reaction is the one that we get to

670
00:33:19.680 --> 00:33:23.519
signal what the creature does because her 1st reaction when she

671
00:33:23.519 --> 00:33:27.119
just sees something move behind Alice is extraordinary.

672
00:33:27.180 --> 00:33:29.400
Like it absolutely punches up the drama.

673
00:33:29.460 --> 00:33:31.500
I'm so glad she's the one who gets to do it first.

674
00:33:31.619 --> 00:33:36.299
And she's the one, I think, who gives Mo the chance to become a

675
00:33:36.299 --> 00:33:38.640
character whom we get to know as well, just because of the

676
00:33:38.640 --> 00:33:40.079
relationship between the 2 of them.

677
00:33:40.140 --> 00:33:45.119
I have to confess that I did freeze frame, that 1st moment that

678
00:33:45.119 --> 00:33:50.940
Belinda notices something behind Alice and there is a very hokey

679
00:33:50.940 --> 00:33:52.559
looking monster.

680
00:33:55.380 --> 00:33:58.140
We just see for a second.

681
00:33:58.200 --> 00:34:03.000
I almost, I was considering posting it to the FDA thread, but I

682
00:34:03.000 --> 00:34:04.799
didn't want to ruin it for everyone.

683
00:34:04.799 --> 00:34:11.460
Because it's really important, I think, that this doesn't ruin the

684
00:34:11.460 --> 00:34:12.539
midnight creature.

685
00:34:12.599 --> 00:34:16.199
I mean, it's not possible for this episode to change a frame of

686
00:34:16.199 --> 00:34:18.300
midnight, no matter what it does.

687
00:34:18.360 --> 00:34:19.800
It can't change midnight.

688
00:34:19.860 --> 00:34:22.320
Midnight remains, you know, as good as it ever was.

689
00:34:22.380 --> 00:34:25.980
But it would have been possible to kind of stuff, this aren't in

690
00:34:25.980 --> 00:34:26.760
all sorts of ways.

691
00:34:26.820 --> 00:34:30.599
And it manages not to do that, but it does manage to reveal more

692
00:34:30.599 --> 00:34:31.380
of the monster.

693
00:34:31.440 --> 00:34:36.360
So the monster does, in fact, appear in our field of vision a

694
00:34:36.360 --> 00:34:36.780
couple of times.

695
00:34:36.840 --> 00:34:40.559
Because in midnight, and I didn't bother rewinding it and

696
00:34:40.559 --> 00:34:43.019
rewatching the bit over and over again, but when either the driver

697
00:34:43.019 --> 00:34:45.900
or the engineer says, there was something out there.

698
00:34:45.960 --> 00:34:48.659
I'm not convinced that we ever actually see a flash of anything on

699
00:34:48.659 --> 00:34:49.019
screen.

700
00:34:49.079 --> 00:34:51.179
It's hard because there's the glistening of the diamonds and so

701
00:34:51.179 --> 00:34:51.420
on.

702
00:34:51.480 --> 00:34:54.300
Yeah, I was pretty sure no, there's no movement that we actually

703
00:34:54.300 --> 00:34:57.420
see in the same way that we do see something here. very, very well

704
00:34:57.420 --> 00:34:57.599
done.

705
00:34:57.659 --> 00:35:01.079
And actually, can I just say, I think the most effective moment in

706
00:35:01.079 --> 00:35:04.079
the entire episode and the one that I absolutely loved and we get

707
00:35:04.079 --> 00:35:07.440
a great reaction out of shoots at this moment is when they're

708
00:35:07.440 --> 00:35:10.440
being chased by the creature out of their chamber and they're

709
00:35:10.440 --> 00:35:14.760
heading back to the lift and the doctor and Belinda are lagging

710
00:35:14.760 --> 00:35:18.179
behind and the doctor says, I have to see it and you just get a

711
00:35:18.179 --> 00:35:22.739
point of viewshot of the camera creeping around the corner cut to

712
00:35:22.739 --> 00:35:26.579
absolute horror on the doctor and Belinda's face as they turn and

713
00:35:26.579 --> 00:35:26.880
run.

714
00:35:26.940 --> 00:35:28.500
It's the most effective moment in the episode.

715
00:35:28.559 --> 00:35:30.960
A lesson for Pennant Robertson Warriors for Deep.

716
00:35:33.480 --> 00:35:37.500
I cannot imagine Janet Fielding being here. would you tell you

717
00:35:37.500 --> 00:35:37.980
about that?

718
00:35:44.219 --> 00:35:50.579
Do you know what I think is kind of the the real reason that we

719
00:35:50.579 --> 00:35:55.199
have the midnight creature back is the moment where the doctor

720
00:35:55.199 --> 00:35:59.159
moves right up to Alice's face and says, I'm not talking to you

721
00:35:59.159 --> 00:36:03.179
Alice, I'm talking to the creature behind you and it recognises

722
00:36:03.179 --> 00:36:05.699
him and he recognises it.

723
00:36:05.820 --> 00:36:11.820
And so the fact that they have a history together, which wouldn't

724
00:36:11.820 --> 00:36:15.539
have been possible, actually gives it a little bit more weight

725
00:36:15.539 --> 00:36:17.400
that they know each other.

726
00:36:17.519 --> 00:36:20.639
And so the doctor's reaction to it isn't that it's been

727
00:36:20.639 --> 00:36:24.360
responsible for all of these deaths here, but that he knows what

728
00:36:24.360 --> 00:36:27.480
it does to people and he remembers it from before.

729
00:36:27.539 --> 00:36:29.880
Does he already know that he's on midnight at that point?

730
00:36:30.179 --> 00:36:32.340
Yeah, by that point he does.

731
00:36:32.400 --> 00:36:33.059
Yeah.

732
00:36:33.119 --> 00:36:35.340
He finds out in the well chamber and then goes back to them.

733
00:36:35.400 --> 00:36:36.059
Right.

734
00:36:36.119 --> 00:36:36.719
Okay.

735
00:36:36.780 --> 00:36:40.679
Look, I don't read that from that sequence that that's what's

736
00:36:40.679 --> 00:36:40.980
happening.

737
00:36:41.039 --> 00:36:46.260
And I sort of question the need for it to be a sequel to Midnight

738
00:36:46.260 --> 00:36:47.699
or having the same creature.

739
00:36:47.820 --> 00:36:53.340
I mean, what I think is evident to me at least is that this idea

740
00:36:53.340 --> 00:36:57.659
was done, the script was written and then the midnight aspect was

741
00:36:57.659 --> 00:37:00.420
in some respects added on in a redraft.

742
00:37:00.480 --> 00:37:03.480
I don't know whether that's the case, but it just feels that way

743
00:37:03.480 --> 00:37:03.840
to me.

744
00:37:03.900 --> 00:37:05.159
No, that's not necessarily a bad thing.

745
00:37:05.219 --> 00:37:07.679
That happens all the time throughout this series and many other.

746
00:37:07.739 --> 00:37:09.420
But I don't know, is that the impression you guys get?

747
00:37:09.480 --> 00:37:12.360
I think it's certainly absolutely what happened because this has a

748
00:37:12.360 --> 00:37:15.659
dual writing credit and Russell gets a credit.

749
00:37:15.719 --> 00:37:19.860
And in fact, we do know this because originally it was meant to be

750
00:37:19.860 --> 00:37:25.139
divine Nigerian spirits called, I think, the Orisha, if I'm

751
00:37:25.139 --> 00:37:28.019
pronouncing that correctly, and there was concern about cultural

752
00:37:28.019 --> 00:37:30.719
sensitivity around featuring those spirits.

753
00:37:30.780 --> 00:37:33.659
And so Russell just said, it's very like the midnight creature

754
00:37:33.659 --> 00:37:34.860
let's have the midnight creature.

755
00:37:34.920 --> 00:37:37.980
I mean, there is a moment where the doctor calls it old friend at

756
00:37:37.980 --> 00:37:39.179
one point.

757
00:37:39.239 --> 00:37:39.780
Yeah.

758
00:37:39.840 --> 00:37:41.219
So he does recognise it.

759
00:37:41.280 --> 00:37:47.519
And so I think just that relationship, I think one of the reasons

760
00:37:47.519 --> 00:37:52.500
why we have recurring monsters in Doctor Who, because the doctor

761
00:37:52.500 --> 00:37:53.760
knows who they are.

762
00:37:53.820 --> 00:37:56.579
There are plenty of other reasons as well.

763
00:37:56.639 --> 00:37:59.280
And it changes the nature of the doctorates.

764
00:37:59.340 --> 00:38:02.699
Why returning monsters are by their nature something to be excited

765
00:38:02.699 --> 00:38:06.360
about because the doctor knows them and knows that they're evil.

766
00:38:06.420 --> 00:38:11.280
The doctor generally, as a character, gives opponents, villains

767
00:38:11.280 --> 00:38:15.059
the benefits of the doubt until they are proven to be absolutely

768
00:38:15.059 --> 00:38:16.139
malevolent.

769
00:38:16.199 --> 00:38:18.780
He knows that the midnight creature, when the Daleks turn up, he

770
00:38:18.780 --> 00:38:20.400
never gives them the benefit of the doubt.

771
00:38:20.460 --> 00:38:22.440
He knows they're going to do something evil and wicked.

772
00:38:22.500 --> 00:38:24.119
And it's the same with this creature.

773
00:38:24.179 --> 00:38:27.599
It immediately raises the stakes because he knows that this is a

774
00:38:27.599 --> 00:38:29.099
creature that wants to kill.

775
00:38:29.159 --> 00:38:34.800
And so power of the daleks and snake dance, both put the doctor in

776
00:38:34.800 --> 00:38:37.980
the position of having to convince people who are otherwise not

777
00:38:37.980 --> 00:38:41.940
worried about something, that something terrible is happening.

778
00:38:42.059 --> 00:38:45.599
Now, everyone here is pretty convinced that terrible things

779
00:38:45.599 --> 00:38:46.199
happen.

780
00:38:46.320 --> 00:38:46.980
Yes, exactly.

781
00:38:47.039 --> 00:38:50.340
So from that point of view, I'm not convinced that that adds to

782
00:38:50.340 --> 00:38:51.960
this episode in particular.

783
00:38:52.019 --> 00:38:56.159
And so that's why I kind of question whether it was necessary to

784
00:38:56.159 --> 00:38:59.400
make it the midnight creature because I wasn't sure whether it's

785
00:38:59.400 --> 00:39:02.639
also that thing where they're worried that, oh, will people say, oh

786
00:39:02.639 --> 00:39:03.539
this is just like that episode?

787
00:39:03.599 --> 00:39:05.219
midnight 17 years ago.

788
00:39:05.280 --> 00:39:08.880
And go, oh, that's a cop out that's cheap.

789
00:39:08.880 --> 00:39:13.380
And is it kind of a covering their tracks by saying, oh, well

790
00:39:13.380 --> 00:39:15.840
actually it is the same creature or at least it's sort of an

791
00:39:15.840 --> 00:39:16.559
evolution of it.

792
00:39:16.619 --> 00:39:19.440
I'm still not convinced that that's even necessary for this

793
00:39:19.440 --> 00:39:21.059
because I think it is different enough.

794
00:39:21.119 --> 00:39:23.340
The aspects of its behaviour are different enough that you could

795
00:39:23.340 --> 00:39:24.840
just have it as a standalone.

796
00:39:24.900 --> 00:39:26.280
Not saying it's terrible.

797
00:39:26.340 --> 00:39:28.559
It doesn't ruin midnight or anything like that for me.

798
00:39:28.619 --> 00:39:30.719
I'm just observing that I don't think it's actually necessary.

799
00:39:30.780 --> 00:39:33.239
I don't think the sequel aspect of it adds to this episode.

800
00:39:33.300 --> 00:39:38.219
I do think that that scene where rose and shooty up just face to

801
00:39:38.219 --> 00:39:41.460
face and the doctor's reaction, you know, like I don't think that

802
00:39:41.460 --> 00:39:47.039
we could have had it quite as emotional as that if it was some

803
00:39:47.039 --> 00:39:48.960
other different creature.

804
00:39:49.019 --> 00:39:53.039
And I do think too, if you bring it back, you don't want it to be

805
00:39:53.039 --> 00:39:55.500
doing the same tricks that it was doing in midnight.

806
00:39:55.559 --> 00:39:59.219
Like it would have been intolerable if it was like going back to a

807
00:39:59.219 --> 00:40:02.340
mining base where everyone's talking at the same time.

808
00:40:03.300 --> 00:40:06.119
But en masse, amazingly.

809
00:40:06.119 --> 00:40:11.820
Can I say too, and I don't know whether I said this in too, gab

810
00:40:11.820 --> 00:40:15.960
but one of the pleasures of this is seeing what this kind of

811
00:40:15.960 --> 00:40:23.880
future is like when it's realised in 2025 as opposed to 2006.

812
00:40:24.179 --> 00:40:27.539
The detail of the sets, I think, is incredible.

813
00:40:27.599 --> 00:40:31.619
That night shoot in a quarry is very similar to the night shoot, I

814
00:40:31.619 --> 00:40:34.559
think, in the Satan pit, but the...

815
00:40:34.559 --> 00:40:37.380
Still well, the most effective locations doctor is ever mounted.

816
00:40:37.440 --> 00:40:40.619
Yeah, but I mean, I think that this looks even better than that.

817
00:40:40.679 --> 00:40:42.960
Like, it is pretty incredible.

818
00:40:43.019 --> 00:40:46.260
And even just those little kind of the crew quarters, which were

819
00:40:46.260 --> 00:40:50.280
only in for one little scene, they're so detailed and they're so

820
00:40:50.280 --> 00:40:51.420
kind of interestingly designed.

821
00:40:51.480 --> 00:40:55.019
Well, standard definition versus 4K. Well, yes, there's that.

822
00:40:55.139 --> 00:40:57.840
And that's what actually struck me when watching Midnight.

823
00:40:57.900 --> 00:40:59.639
It's like watching a classic series story.

824
00:40:59.699 --> 00:41:01.980
Like it's kind of like, 0 my god, this looks so cheap.

825
00:41:04.619 --> 00:41:07.559
I would never have thought what I was watching.

826
00:41:07.559 --> 00:41:10.800
Watching the original Rosslier now compares to watching now on DVD

827
00:41:10.800 --> 00:41:12.239
and watching that on the HS.

828
00:41:12.300 --> 00:41:12.659
Exactly.

829
00:41:12.659 --> 00:41:16.980
I've had the experience of school kids talking to me about having

830
00:41:16.980 --> 00:41:20.699
seen really old Doctor Who when the special effects were terrible

831
00:41:20.699 --> 00:41:23.099
and they were talking about the empty child.

832
00:41:25.320 --> 00:41:27.059
Please kill me.

833
00:41:28.980 --> 00:41:31.139
Did you then go and show them?

834
00:41:37.800 --> 00:41:42.059
There is something about the unknowability of the Midnight Monster

835
00:41:42.059 --> 00:41:45.179
but something that I think is lacking in the well compared to

836
00:41:45.179 --> 00:41:45.840
midnight.

837
00:41:45.900 --> 00:41:48.900
It's not a huge issue, but it's little issue because I think it's

838
00:41:48.900 --> 00:41:54.539
a wider issue for the series. is that Russell has a tendency to

839
00:41:54.539 --> 00:41:58.500
not give monsters a human mouthpiece.

840
00:41:58.559 --> 00:42:01.860
And so it goes all the way back to Rose, where the doctor is

841
00:42:01.860 --> 00:42:04.800
standing there remonstrating with the nesting consciousness, which

842
00:42:04.800 --> 00:42:05.579
is just there.

843
00:42:05.639 --> 00:42:11.460
Basically, it's bubbles in a pit going, whereas what made the

844
00:42:11.460 --> 00:42:15.659
spearhead from space so amazing was that you had Channing as the

845
00:42:15.659 --> 00:42:17.460
mouthpiece for the nestings.

846
00:42:17.519 --> 00:42:22.199
I think midnight really hit that on the heads by having Sky

847
00:42:22.199 --> 00:42:26.699
Sylvestry, who is this really weird, enigmatic and kind of

848
00:42:26.699 --> 00:42:29.820
unknowable force, but in human form.

849
00:42:29.880 --> 00:42:31.320
And I think that's what we're lacking here.

850
00:42:31.380 --> 00:42:34.980
You don't get any kind of interaction with the creature, which

851
00:42:34.980 --> 00:42:35.880
would elevate.

852
00:42:35.940 --> 00:42:37.500
And that is its own thing.

853
00:42:37.559 --> 00:42:41.340
I like the fact that that makes it mysterious, but I always like a

854
00:42:41.340 --> 00:42:43.199
human, villainous face on the monster.

855
00:42:43.260 --> 00:42:46.739
Because the midnight creature does actually talk to us, doesn't

856
00:42:46.739 --> 00:42:46.980
it?

857
00:42:47.039 --> 00:42:50.639
Like, it's not just saying what the doctor says.

858
00:42:50.699 --> 00:42:52.980
It's not just repeating.

859
00:42:53.099 --> 00:42:57.480
There is a point where she takes over and starts saying things

860
00:42:57.480 --> 00:43:00.480
that are inspired by the monster.

861
00:43:00.539 --> 00:43:01.619
So we do actually see that.

862
00:43:01.679 --> 00:43:05.340
And, you know, there's a real constraint on this where you can't

863
00:43:05.340 --> 00:43:07.199
reveal too much about the monster.

864
00:43:07.260 --> 00:43:08.340
You really can't.

865
00:43:08.400 --> 00:43:10.079
But I think you're right.

866
00:43:10.139 --> 00:43:14.340
And the one other example, apart from Channing that occurs to me

867
00:43:14.340 --> 00:43:16.500
is Angel Bob.

868
00:43:16.559 --> 00:43:21.179
Like, one of the things about the angels is that we never hear

869
00:43:21.179 --> 00:43:22.380
from them.

870
00:43:22.500 --> 00:43:25.619
They're completely unknowable to us.

871
00:43:25.679 --> 00:43:27.420
They're utterly irrational.

872
00:43:27.480 --> 00:43:28.860
They're they're strange.

873
00:43:28.920 --> 00:43:31.440
You know, they're, you know, there's even a possibility that

874
00:43:31.440 --> 00:43:33.719
they're just sort of images from the human mind.

875
00:43:33.780 --> 00:43:38.940
But then they're given a voice and, you know, it's Moffatt.

876
00:43:39.000 --> 00:43:42.960
It's a beautifully written and utterly terrifying voice.

877
00:43:43.019 --> 00:43:46.800
I mean, Angel Bob is really quite frightening, I think, and

878
00:43:46.800 --> 00:43:49.079
doesn't take away from the angels kind of.

879
00:43:49.079 --> 00:43:51.840
It plays completely against what the angels are because it's this

880
00:43:51.840 --> 00:43:52.619
innocent young voice.

881
00:43:52.679 --> 00:43:53.699
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

882
00:43:53.760 --> 00:43:54.360
Yeah.

883
00:43:54.420 --> 00:43:56.159
So that can be done, can't it?

884
00:43:56.219 --> 00:43:58.260
Yeah, I think there isn't space for it here.

885
00:43:58.320 --> 00:44:00.900
We know that it whispers, but we don't get to hear what it says.

886
00:44:00.960 --> 00:44:05.280
It's clearly saying something that's driving people mad, but we

887
00:44:05.280 --> 00:44:06.119
don't get to hear it.

888
00:44:06.179 --> 00:44:07.199
So it has a voice.

889
00:44:07.260 --> 00:44:14.460
But even that scene where Belinda hears a, um, we can barely hear

890
00:44:14.460 --> 00:44:14.699
it.

891
00:44:14.760 --> 00:44:16.320
It's barely there in the mix.

892
00:44:16.380 --> 00:44:20.760
And for a 2nd I thought that she hadn't heard it and that Shire

893
00:44:20.760 --> 00:44:25.019
had just run off for no reason and hurled herself down the well

894
00:44:25.019 --> 00:44:28.860
which would have been bleak even for Russell, I think.

895
00:44:28.920 --> 00:44:31.739
But we do see it behind her for a second.

896
00:44:31.860 --> 00:44:33.059
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

897
00:44:33.119 --> 00:44:35.340
But yes, yeah, it doesn't have a voice.

898
00:44:35.400 --> 00:44:36.119
I think you're right.

899
00:44:36.179 --> 00:44:40.079
I don't think that's such a bad thing in this particular story.

900
00:44:40.139 --> 00:44:43.199
And the reason I say that is I think because it really plays into

901
00:44:43.199 --> 00:44:47.280
an ambiguity around what happens to this monster as well as, you

902
00:44:47.280 --> 00:44:48.360
know, what is this monster?

903
00:44:48.420 --> 00:44:52.440
We have that great sort of, you know, climax where the airlock

904
00:44:52.440 --> 00:44:55.380
shows four, but there's actually 3 people in there and it's like

905
00:44:55.380 --> 00:44:57.300
oh, well, has it now escaped?

906
00:44:57.360 --> 00:44:59.940
And I only picked this up on reviewing, by the way, hasn't now

907
00:44:59.940 --> 00:45:00.360
escaped.

908
00:45:00.420 --> 00:45:02.880
And that's obviously perhaps, you know, one of the explanations

909
00:45:02.880 --> 00:45:05.039
for why it has escaped in that last coder.

910
00:45:05.099 --> 00:45:08.280
But then, you know, we do see it in the room with the doctor and

911
00:45:08.280 --> 00:45:12.239
Mo and Shire, and Belinda hears it, whispering, as you say

912
00:45:12.239 --> 00:45:12.960
Nathan.

913
00:45:13.019 --> 00:45:14.039
So it's here with us.

914
00:45:14.099 --> 00:45:15.539
And I love that ambiguity.

915
00:45:15.599 --> 00:45:16.559
Are there 2 of them?

916
00:45:16.619 --> 00:45:19.079
Is it a quantum state kind of being?

917
00:45:19.199 --> 00:45:19.619
Who knows?

918
00:45:19.679 --> 00:45:20.219
Who cares?

919
00:45:20.280 --> 00:45:22.920
The fact is that we kind of get it both ways.

920
00:45:22.980 --> 00:45:25.619
We have this incredible denouement.

921
00:45:25.679 --> 00:45:28.619
We're shire, you know, takes this responsibility and plunges into

922
00:45:28.619 --> 00:45:32.400
the well, but we have, you know, a potential for a 3rd story

923
00:45:32.400 --> 00:45:35.039
whether that's back on the planet midnight, which is unlikely, or

924
00:45:35.039 --> 00:45:35.760
somewhere in space.

925
00:45:35.820 --> 00:45:38.820
Like, I just love that it opens up that possibility and it can

926
00:45:38.820 --> 00:45:42.480
only do so by virtue of the fact that we don't have, you know, a

927
00:45:42.480 --> 00:45:45.480
communion with the, with the voice of the monster, that it just

928
00:45:45.480 --> 00:45:48.960
sort of exists out there and we don't exactly know where or how or

929
00:45:48.960 --> 00:45:50.039
why. that's great.

930
00:45:50.099 --> 00:45:51.539
But that's a typical thing.

931
00:45:51.599 --> 00:45:54.059
We don't need to have a sequel to that necessarily.

932
00:45:54.119 --> 00:45:56.820
It's just one of those nice loose ends that sometimes these things

933
00:45:56.820 --> 00:45:58.739
have, that it's not all wrapped up nicely in a bow.

934
00:45:58.800 --> 00:46:03.239
Although that is the way we get from aliens to alien 3, is that

935
00:46:03.239 --> 00:46:05.099
the alien escapes with us.

936
00:46:05.159 --> 00:46:05.940
No, no, no.

937
00:46:06.000 --> 00:46:07.380
But it does do the sort of same thing.

938
00:46:07.440 --> 00:46:11.699
I think also the fact that it's behind Mo in that final scene.

939
00:46:11.760 --> 00:46:14.760
She's obviously the one that has to be behind because she's the

940
00:46:14.760 --> 00:46:20.460
last remaining kind of talking character at the end of it, but she

941
00:46:20.460 --> 00:46:24.059
was down on the planet when it went up in the lift.

942
00:46:24.119 --> 00:46:25.380
And so how did it get to her?

943
00:46:25.440 --> 00:46:28.679
So all of that stuff is inexplicable.

944
00:46:28.739 --> 00:46:29.760
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

945
00:46:29.820 --> 00:46:30.119
Yeah.

946
00:46:30.179 --> 00:46:32.159
And then it sort of goes to her. don't know.

947
00:46:32.159 --> 00:46:32.940
Yeah, we don't know.

948
00:46:33.000 --> 00:46:36.119
It's also that old horror movie trope of the monster that won't

949
00:46:36.119 --> 00:46:36.360
die.

950
00:46:36.420 --> 00:46:38.340
You know, every time you think it's dead.

951
00:46:38.400 --> 00:46:39.480
It comes back to life.

952
00:46:39.539 --> 00:46:42.900
There doesn't seem to be any conclusive way of ridding yourself of

953
00:46:42.900 --> 00:46:43.559
this creature.

954
00:46:43.619 --> 00:46:44.519
And I think that's scary.

955
00:46:44.639 --> 00:46:45.360
Yeah.

956
00:46:49.980 --> 00:46:55.619
We talked very briefly about some possible reasons why we keep

957
00:46:55.619 --> 00:47:01.739
bringing Doctor Who Monsters back over the 60 something years that

958
00:47:01.739 --> 00:47:02.940
the show's been running.

959
00:47:02.940 --> 00:47:04.860
What do you think we've learned?

960
00:47:04.920 --> 00:47:08.340
I've learned that this would have been better with Ice Warriors.

961
00:47:08.940 --> 00:47:12.539
I always think things should have pteraleptils in them.

962
00:47:13.800 --> 00:47:21.059
I think it's just a reality of any long-running genre thing is

963
00:47:21.059 --> 00:47:24.119
that where there, I mean, it doesn't have to be Doctor Who doesn't

964
00:47:24.119 --> 00:47:26.400
have to be Star Trek. it can be Agatha Christie.

965
00:47:26.460 --> 00:47:31.619
Anything where you've got similar stories being told one after the

966
00:47:31.619 --> 00:47:35.820
other, inevitably lends itself to some of those villains, villains

967
00:47:35.820 --> 00:47:39.119
particularly more so than sympathetic characters, villains

968
00:47:39.119 --> 00:47:42.360
returning, because as you've said before, it provides a shorthand

969
00:47:42.360 --> 00:47:45.480
it allows you to get straight into the story, perhaps a bit

970
00:47:45.480 --> 00:47:45.900
quicker.

971
00:47:45.960 --> 00:47:48.960
It's something that you can put on a press release, dare I say?

972
00:47:49.019 --> 00:47:51.059
It's something you can put on a radio times cover.

973
00:47:51.119 --> 00:47:52.559
It's something you can put in the ad.

974
00:47:52.619 --> 00:47:55.019
And it also means that you don't get.

975
00:47:55.079 --> 00:47:57.900
Criticism, as I was trying to allude to before, with something

976
00:47:57.900 --> 00:48:00.300
being, oh, this is just the same as blah.

977
00:48:00.360 --> 00:48:03.719
You can you can say, well, it is the same as blah.

978
00:48:03.780 --> 00:48:06.360
So, you know, we don't have to come up with something new.

979
00:48:06.420 --> 00:48:07.679
I think it's inevitable.

980
00:48:07.739 --> 00:48:10.500
There's also the fact that there's only so many good ideas and

981
00:48:10.500 --> 00:48:13.980
good visuals out there as a series goes on for year after year and

982
00:48:13.980 --> 00:48:15.360
then decade after decade.

983
00:48:15.480 --> 00:48:19.380
And if you've had a story, which was popular, went down well and

984
00:48:19.380 --> 00:48:22.260
had a good monster outfit, then use it again.

985
00:48:22.500 --> 00:48:26.579
Going back to what I think we were saying in Seeds of Death, which

986
00:48:26.579 --> 00:48:28.980
was, you know, it didn't need to be the Ice Warriors.

987
00:48:29.039 --> 00:48:29.639
It could have been anything.

988
00:48:29.699 --> 00:48:31.739
It could be the cyberman, it could have been a yeti.

989
00:48:31.800 --> 00:48:34.980
It's just whatever monster suit they had in the cupboard.

990
00:48:35.039 --> 00:48:37.199
Yes, that's absolutely true.

991
00:48:37.260 --> 00:48:40.860
But in that kind of thing, when they're doing that kind of sequel

992
00:48:40.860 --> 00:48:44.219
well, that kind of return of a monster, it's kind of more like

993
00:48:44.219 --> 00:48:47.820
Batman, where, or this, this week it's the Joker, and next week

994
00:48:47.820 --> 00:48:50.940
it's the penguin and the following week it's whatever other

995
00:48:50.940 --> 00:48:53.400
strange, stupid things that Batman fights.

996
00:48:53.460 --> 00:48:55.860
And so what you're doing is you just cycle through those.

997
00:48:55.920 --> 00:48:58.920
And that's, I think, what the series was doing at that point.

998
00:48:58.980 --> 00:49:00.840
Yeah, it's what the Troutson era does.

999
00:49:00.900 --> 00:49:04.739
Well, exactly. that sort of season 6 kind of and beyond.

1000
00:49:04.800 --> 00:49:08.460
But in this instance, though, with the well, it's one of the

1001
00:49:08.460 --> 00:49:12.179
examples where they've decided to bring something back because it

1002
00:49:12.179 --> 00:49:15.599
just seemed like a good idea at the time with the script they had

1003
00:49:15.599 --> 00:49:18.420
as a result of a change, as you were suggesting before, Peter that

1004
00:49:18.420 --> 00:49:21.239
they needed to make, and this was just kind of an easy logical fix

1005
00:49:21.239 --> 00:49:22.320
and why not?

1006
00:49:22.380 --> 00:49:23.699
And I'm not necessarily against that.

1007
00:49:23.760 --> 00:49:26.400
That's a really interesting point, Simon.

1008
00:49:26.460 --> 00:49:27.900
I think there's 2 aspects to this.

1009
00:49:27.960 --> 00:49:30.300
Firstly, rewards longtime viewers.

1010
00:49:30.360 --> 00:49:33.599
So it sort of builds a sort of dedicated fan base and we have the

1011
00:49:33.599 --> 00:49:36.539
return of a monster that's something to look forward to, even if

1012
00:49:36.539 --> 00:49:39.480
it might be something like revenge of the site, and then we kind

1013
00:49:39.480 --> 00:49:42.300
of look forward to it, anticipated, because it's a returning

1014
00:49:42.300 --> 00:49:42.659
monster.

1015
00:49:42.719 --> 00:49:44.219
It doesn't matter about the quality of the story.

1016
00:49:44.280 --> 00:49:47.280
I always look forward to and anticipate revenge of the Sidemen.

1017
00:49:49.440 --> 00:49:54.360
I also think that it's largely due to the fact that we kind of

1018
00:49:54.360 --> 00:49:58.800
live in this post-marvel EU world now where there is this sort of

1019
00:49:58.800 --> 00:50:00.840
expectation that there will be old monsters.

1020
00:50:00.900 --> 00:50:03.239
Or as you say, Simon, you know, you know, the joke will turn up

1021
00:50:03.239 --> 00:50:05.340
again in a couple of weeks' time and then it'll be the penguin, et

1022
00:50:05.340 --> 00:50:06.059
cetera, et cetera.

1023
00:50:06.179 --> 00:50:08.760
That's kind of the cultural landscape that we live in.

1024
00:50:08.820 --> 00:50:12.900
There is a question that arises from that for me, though, and is

1025
00:50:12.900 --> 00:50:15.719
this the right approach to take for Doctor Who?

1026
00:50:15.780 --> 00:50:19.559
And, you know, there's a number of things that sort of occurred to

1027
00:50:19.559 --> 00:50:19.739
me.

1028
00:50:19.739 --> 00:50:22.079
Also, I was watching this and I was grappling with exactly that

1029
00:50:22.079 --> 00:50:22.920
question, Simon.

1030
00:50:22.980 --> 00:50:26.340
Like, should this actually have been the midnight monster and, you

1031
00:50:26.340 --> 00:50:28.739
know, on a personal level, I thought it worked for me, but there

1032
00:50:28.739 --> 00:50:31.500
are those larger questions of, are we mining the past?

1033
00:50:31.559 --> 00:50:35.760
I'll be going back to the well, ha ha, too often, perhaps.

1034
00:50:35.820 --> 00:50:38.699
And it's something that is born of, I guess, you know, the

1035
00:50:38.699 --> 00:50:43.079
Universe, at least in Britain, is all on the, is it ivy or the

1036
00:50:43.079 --> 00:50:44.400
iPlayer or whatever it is over there.

1037
00:50:44.460 --> 00:50:48.840
You know, we've got TARDIS Wakia, you know, on our fingertips on

1038
00:50:48.840 --> 00:50:49.320
our phone.

1039
00:50:49.380 --> 00:50:52.380
So if we don't know something, we don't have to sort of scour, you

1040
00:50:52.380 --> 00:50:55.320
know, libraries, textbooks, and whatever else to find it, we can

1041
00:50:55.320 --> 00:50:57.119
just, we can just find out immediately.

1042
00:50:57.179 --> 00:51:01.559
There's a sort of immediacy around what the, not just, you know

1043
00:51:01.559 --> 00:51:04.739
knew who is or knew who is, but you know, all of who, going back

1044
00:51:04.739 --> 00:51:07.199
to 1963 at our, at our fingertips.

1045
00:51:07.260 --> 00:51:12.059
And I just wonder, this approach that RTD has taken in his 2nd era

1046
00:51:12.059 --> 00:51:15.659
which relies much more so on, you know, recognisable returning

1047
00:51:15.659 --> 00:51:17.699
characters and monsters, et cetera.

1048
00:51:17.760 --> 00:51:21.719
At the expense of, I would probably suggest that kind of paired

1049
00:51:21.719 --> 00:51:25.559
back really sort of minimalist approach to continuity there you

1050
00:51:25.559 --> 00:51:27.539
took, particularly in those 1st 2 or 3 years.

1051
00:51:27.599 --> 00:51:29.460
You know, is it the right way to do it?

1052
00:51:29.519 --> 00:51:33.840
And I don't know what the right answer is, but I remember a few

1053
00:51:33.840 --> 00:51:37.860
years ago watching Wednesday, or I think it was on Netflix, and

1054
00:51:37.860 --> 00:51:41.280
being absolutely charmed by it, because it kind of, in some way

1055
00:51:41.280 --> 00:51:43.619
sort of set a template in the same way that Buffy did for me for

1056
00:51:43.619 --> 00:51:46.679
what Doctor Who could be going forward in a streaming sort of

1057
00:51:46.679 --> 00:51:47.460
era.

1058
00:51:47.519 --> 00:51:50.880
But all the lessons that I took away from it were effectively, the

1059
00:51:50.880 --> 00:51:54.360
lessons that I think RTD used in his 1st era, not necessarily any

1060
00:51:54.360 --> 00:51:57.900
2nd era, where it's character led, rather than sort of gimmick led

1061
00:51:57.900 --> 00:52:01.019
or perhaps, you know, returning monsters led, that there's a short

1062
00:52:01.019 --> 00:52:04.860
sharp seasoned arc, I guess, that pays off at the resolution, and

1063
00:52:04.860 --> 00:52:07.440
that there might potentially actually be years between these

1064
00:52:07.440 --> 00:52:10.139
series as we're finding with Wednesday, and we might find with

1065
00:52:10.139 --> 00:52:11.039
Doctor Who as well.

1066
00:52:11.099 --> 00:52:14.639
And I just want to ask that question perhaps of you, gents, and we

1067
00:52:14.639 --> 00:52:17.579
may not necessarily have an answer for it, but is this the right

1068
00:52:17.579 --> 00:52:22.920
model, the RTD 2 model as opposed to the RTD one model for taking

1069
00:52:22.920 --> 00:52:24.059
Doctor Who forward?

1070
00:52:24.119 --> 00:52:25.320
I don't know the answer to that.

1071
00:52:25.679 --> 00:52:31.079
I think the show has a really ambiguous kind of relationship with

1072
00:52:31.079 --> 00:52:36.539
its own past, and you can see it particularly in series one, where

1073
00:52:36.539 --> 00:52:39.719
although there are references to things, and although the Daleks

1074
00:52:39.719 --> 00:52:44.280
are introduced, the show is very, very conscious of not being law

1075
00:52:44.280 --> 00:52:47.340
heavy in a way that's likely to put ordinary viewers off.

1076
00:52:48.119 --> 00:52:51.900
And then when it becomes a big hit, they kind of drop that a

1077
00:52:51.900 --> 00:52:52.260
little bit.

1078
00:52:52.320 --> 00:53:00.360
But remember that of the 2 full shooty series, apart from this

1079
00:53:00.360 --> 00:53:05.880
it's only the finales that have recurring elements and episodes

1080
00:53:05.880 --> 00:53:07.679
one to 6 are all new things.

1081
00:53:07.739 --> 00:53:10.079
We don't see the Daleks in this era.

1082
00:53:10.139 --> 00:53:12.599
We don't see the cybermen, we don't see the Santarans.

1083
00:53:12.659 --> 00:53:13.980
No terreleptols.

1084
00:53:14.099 --> 00:53:16.079
In fact, we are...

1085
00:53:16.139 --> 00:53:21.599
The classic series elements, like Omega, the Rani, and Sutec are

1086
00:53:21.599 --> 00:53:23.820
things that the new series hasn't done before.

1087
00:53:23.940 --> 00:53:31.079
And remember, too, that Chibnall's 1st season was touted as one

1088
00:53:31.079 --> 00:53:33.420
that had no recurring elements as well.

1089
00:53:33.480 --> 00:53:37.980
There was a real sort of feeling that it was necessary to get away

1090
00:53:37.980 --> 00:53:40.079
from that sort of law heavy thing.

1091
00:53:40.139 --> 00:53:43.380
And then you think about the Moffat era, and the Moffat era does

1092
00:53:43.380 --> 00:53:46.139
have sort of time lords and dialects and cybermen and all of those

1093
00:53:46.139 --> 00:53:46.860
things in them.

1094
00:53:46.920 --> 00:53:51.960
But apart from just a few exceptions, like it never really has a

1095
00:53:51.960 --> 00:53:54.780
satisfactory kind of dalek story.

1096
00:53:54.840 --> 00:53:57.000
There are Daleks in other stories.

1097
00:53:57.119 --> 00:54:01.019
There's asylum of the Daleks, I guess, and victory of the Daleks

1098
00:54:01.019 --> 00:54:05.039
neither of which I think is sort of super highly regarded, although

1099
00:54:05.039 --> 00:54:07.260
I quite like asylum of the Daleks, actually.

1100
00:54:07.320 --> 00:54:09.719
But there are daleks elsewhere.

1101
00:54:09.719 --> 00:54:14.159
And there's A Sontara, and there's no Sontara, and stories in the

1102
00:54:14.159 --> 00:54:15.599
era, but there's a Sontara.

1103
00:54:15.659 --> 00:54:18.780
There's, you know, eventually there's a Silurian character.

1104
00:54:18.840 --> 00:54:23.699
So he doesn't do a Siderian story after the 1st one.

1105
00:54:23.760 --> 00:54:25.920
Oh, dinosaurs on a spaceship.

1106
00:54:25.980 --> 00:54:26.219
Not really.

1107
00:54:26.280 --> 00:54:26.940
No.

1108
00:54:27.000 --> 00:54:27.420
Yeah.

1109
00:54:27.480 --> 00:54:28.260
Yeah.

1110
00:54:28.320 --> 00:54:33.119
So he makes them a part of the world that the show takes place in

1111
00:54:33.119 --> 00:54:36.539
rather than a thing that we bring back periodically to have a

1112
00:54:36.539 --> 00:54:37.199
story about.

1113
00:54:37.320 --> 00:54:42.360
And so the idea that the monsters have to come back and that we

1114
00:54:42.360 --> 00:54:46.559
have to have a regular sort of sea devil story or something is not

1115
00:54:46.559 --> 00:54:51.000
something that's necessarily a given in all of the eras of Doctor

1116
00:54:51.000 --> 00:54:51.360
Who.

1117
00:54:51.420 --> 00:54:52.980
When you think about the Hinchcliffe era.

1118
00:54:53.039 --> 00:54:57.179
After season 12, it just goes and does its own thing, I think.

1119
00:54:57.239 --> 00:54:59.340
And the Williams era as a rule.

1120
00:54:59.340 --> 00:55:00.059
Yeah, yeah.

1121
00:55:00.119 --> 00:55:03.119
I think there's a thing about universe building.

1122
00:55:03.179 --> 00:55:07.619
Doctor Who did that accidentally and haphazardly in the original

1123
00:55:07.619 --> 00:55:11.460
series, at least up until the 1980s, because it was building a

1124
00:55:11.460 --> 00:55:14.760
universe only by virtue of the fact that it was running for so

1125
00:55:14.760 --> 00:55:17.820
long, and it was the one character leading you through.

1126
00:55:17.880 --> 00:55:21.719
I think it got universe building wrong in the 80s when it started

1127
00:55:21.719 --> 00:55:26.099
to take its cue from Doctor Who magazine articles, plotting the

1128
00:55:26.099 --> 00:55:29.400
various encounters with the Daleks and, you know, where the TARDIS

1129
00:55:29.400 --> 00:55:30.780
landed and all that kind of stuff.

1130
00:55:30.840 --> 00:55:34.500
It wasn't building a universe, it was just bringing monsters back

1131
00:55:34.500 --> 00:55:36.119
in radically different stories.

1132
00:55:36.179 --> 00:55:40.079
I think Doctor Who is still not particularly suited to universe

1133
00:55:40.079 --> 00:55:40.860
building.

1134
00:55:40.920 --> 00:55:44.699
One of my least favourite parts of the new series is the doctor

1135
00:55:44.699 --> 00:55:47.880
being widely known across the universe, one of my favourite parts

1136
00:55:47.880 --> 00:55:51.239
of the classic series, is the fact that he was just a stranger who

1137
00:55:51.239 --> 00:55:53.099
would turn up and no one would know him.

1138
00:55:53.159 --> 00:55:56.219
Only the Daleks would know him because they'd encountered him

1139
00:55:56.219 --> 00:55:56.400
before.

1140
00:55:56.460 --> 00:56:01.860
And I think the new series is leaning in more to universe building

1141
00:56:01.860 --> 00:56:04.800
but doesn't do it particularly successfully because I don't think

1142
00:56:04.800 --> 00:56:07.739
the format of the series is built for that.

1143
00:56:07.800 --> 00:56:12.480
It's not Star Wars or Star Trek or any of those.

1144
00:56:12.539 --> 00:56:16.079
At least not the Marvel MCU, where it's happening in a well

1145
00:56:15.420 --> 00:56:19.380
defined space, in a universe with a similar set of characters.

1146
00:56:19.440 --> 00:56:22.500
I think it's Moffat that actually blows that up.

1147
00:56:22.559 --> 00:56:26.639
I think that Russell very definitely does create a universe with a

1148
00:56:26.639 --> 00:56:32.760
coherent set of encounters between the doctor and Daleks, you know

1149
00:56:32.760 --> 00:56:34.679
all of which happen in chronological order.

1150
00:56:34.739 --> 00:56:37.559
And then Moffatt comes along and blows up the universe at the end

1151
00:56:37.559 --> 00:56:38.699
of his 1st series.

1152
00:56:38.760 --> 00:56:42.900
And like essentially isn't interested in that at all.

1153
00:56:42.960 --> 00:56:46.260
And I think that's one of the reasons why that's so much more

1154
00:56:46.260 --> 00:56:49.559
successful for me because it reflects how the original show was.

1155
00:56:49.679 --> 00:56:53.400
I think just trying to expand sort of extensive what you were

1156
00:56:53.400 --> 00:56:56.340
saying, Stephen, and what you guys have been saying for a start

1157
00:56:56.340 --> 00:57:00.599
whether you have a monster coming back or not is not whether a

1158
00:57:00.599 --> 00:57:02.039
story or an episode is good.

1159
00:57:02.400 --> 00:57:05.460
That is often completely independent.

1160
00:57:05.519 --> 00:57:08.460
So there is nothing wrong with bringing things back and there is

1161
00:57:08.460 --> 00:57:10.139
nothing wrong with just doing new stuff.

1162
00:57:10.199 --> 00:57:12.360
And there's nothing wrong with doing new stuff which has

1163
00:57:12.360 --> 00:57:15.119
similarities and echo stuff that we've done before.

1164
00:57:15.179 --> 00:57:16.920
That's an inevitability.

1165
00:57:17.039 --> 00:57:21.599
I think my problem with the 2 Russell eras of the new series.

1166
00:57:21.659 --> 00:57:25.199
Um, but particularly the 2nd one is not that Sou Tech comes back

1167
00:57:25.199 --> 00:57:26.400
per se.

1168
00:57:26.460 --> 00:57:29.159
It's sort of how it's done.

1169
00:57:29.219 --> 00:57:32.880
I almost feel like there's a finite universe that's being

1170
00:57:32.880 --> 00:57:33.420
created.

1171
00:57:33.480 --> 00:57:36.300
The universe gets smaller when Russell's in charge.

1172
00:57:36.360 --> 00:57:39.480
When Moffatt was in charge and Cheapnell fraud all his faults.

1173
00:57:39.539 --> 00:57:41.940
The universe seemed to be more infinite.

1174
00:57:42.000 --> 00:57:47.159
The other thing that I think is odd, which is not about monsters

1175
00:57:47.159 --> 00:57:49.079
coming back per se, which is what Russell does.

1176
00:57:49.139 --> 00:57:52.079
The 2nd go round, which he was trying desperately to avoid, the

1177
00:57:52.079 --> 00:57:56.519
1st go round, was to throw in all of the Doctor Who law in what is

1178
00:57:56.519 --> 00:57:59.400
I know it's mostly just supposed to be throw away dialogue.

1179
00:57:59.460 --> 00:58:00.659
But it's very, very odd.

1180
00:58:00.719 --> 00:58:02.280
Why at the beginning of this episode?

1181
00:58:02.340 --> 00:58:05.400
Does Belinda need to even ask and wonder about whether they'll

1182
00:58:05.400 --> 00:58:07.139
speak English outside there?

1183
00:58:07.199 --> 00:58:11.519
It's just kind of throwing a lantern on a kind of a conceit that

1184
00:58:11.519 --> 00:58:13.739
of course, when we landed on an alien planet, everyone can

1185
00:58:13.739 --> 00:58:16.380
understand what we're saying because it's a television show and we

1186
00:58:16.380 --> 00:58:18.059
need to be able to understand what they're saying.

1187
00:58:18.059 --> 00:58:19.019
Do you know what I mean?

1188
00:58:19.079 --> 00:58:23.039
And that's just one example of what I'm meaning.

1189
00:58:23.099 --> 00:58:27.360
Or a repeat of pyramids of Mars in between the season finale last

1190
00:58:27.360 --> 00:58:27.599
year.

1191
00:58:27.659 --> 00:58:31.380
It was a very strange thing for me to have to sort of go back to a

1192
00:58:31.380 --> 00:58:35.519
1970 something episode for the wider audience to sort of

1193
00:58:35.519 --> 00:58:36.780
understand who Soutek was.

1194
00:58:36.840 --> 00:58:41.400
I think maybe if it was an RTD one story, we probably would have

1195
00:58:41.400 --> 00:58:45.360
had that seated a little bit better and we would have had just

1196
00:58:45.360 --> 00:58:48.420
enough, I guess, to know about who Sutek is.

1197
00:58:48.480 --> 00:58:52.559
And the classic example for me is the Satan pet, that is Su Tech

1198
00:58:52.559 --> 00:58:54.780
in the pit there for me, and you don't need to have the rest of

1199
00:58:54.780 --> 00:58:55.800
the gump to go with it.

1200
00:58:55.860 --> 00:59:00.000
I think that there is an acceleration that's happening, Doctor Who

1201
00:59:00.000 --> 00:59:04.500
storytelling, and that it happens between the 2 era, the 2 Russell

1202
00:59:04.500 --> 00:59:08.760
era, and Russell kind of leaps into it, and it largely happens in

1203
00:59:08.760 --> 00:59:09.840
the Moffatt era.

1204
00:59:09.900 --> 00:59:14.340
And that, along with the reduced episode count, means that those

1205
00:59:14.340 --> 00:59:17.579
things aren't kind of seeded through.

1206
00:59:17.699 --> 00:59:26.340
So I actually think that both of the arcs in the RTD 2 era are

1207
00:59:26.340 --> 00:59:29.760
like Moffatt arcs in the sense that they're mostly about our

1208
00:59:29.760 --> 00:59:30.900
regular characters.

1209
00:59:30.960 --> 00:59:36.000
Moffatt's arcs aren't about bad wolf or the master or Mr. Saxon or

1210
00:59:36.000 --> 00:59:36.539
anything like that.

1211
00:59:36.599 --> 00:59:38.940
They're about our regulars.

1212
00:59:39.000 --> 00:59:42.539
And Russell takes that from him.

1213
00:59:42.599 --> 00:59:47.280
And so, and so we do have these things that introduce new elements

1214
00:59:47.280 --> 00:59:48.420
and Russell's always done that.

1215
00:59:48.480 --> 00:59:50.460
We've talked about this over and over again.

1216
00:59:50.519 --> 00:59:53.880
Daleks in series one, Cyberman in series 2, the master in series

1217
00:59:53.880 --> 00:59:57.059
three, Davros and the Son Torrance in series four.

1218
00:59:57.119 --> 01:00:01.619
So he's always giving the new audience some of the law that we as

1219
01:00:01.619 --> 01:00:03.360
classic series people have.

1220
01:00:03.420 --> 01:00:06.300
So this isn't that different from that.

1221
01:00:06.420 --> 01:00:10.139
But I do think, you know, like the objections that people to have

1222
01:00:10.139 --> 01:00:13.739
is the way that they get brought back, I think.

1223
01:00:13.800 --> 01:00:18.300
I can't imagine Russell bringing back Omega in the 1st of his

1224
01:00:18.300 --> 01:00:18.719
eras.

1225
01:00:18.780 --> 01:00:22.920
And the reason is that Omega needs detailed explanations for the

1226
01:00:22.920 --> 01:00:23.460
audience.

1227
01:00:23.519 --> 01:00:26.760
And once you start getting into it, you realise that it sounds a

1228
01:00:26.760 --> 01:00:29.940
bit ridiculous to the public, which is why he didn't do it, oh, so

1229
01:00:29.940 --> 01:00:33.780
Omega was a lost time, Lord, and, you know, like the 1980s, you

1230
01:00:33.780 --> 01:00:36.659
even get some of the law wrong, he was banished by the time, no, no

1231
01:00:36.659 --> 01:00:37.199
he wasn't.

1232
01:00:37.199 --> 01:00:38.460
He impossible by sacrifice.

1233
01:00:38.519 --> 01:00:40.500
And so it is like the 80s, isn't it?

1234
01:00:40.559 --> 01:00:41.219
Exactly.

1235
01:00:41.340 --> 01:00:45.239
And so once you're having to explain who this villain is and his

1236
01:00:45.239 --> 01:00:49.019
connection to the doctor and why he's important as opposed to just

1237
01:00:49.019 --> 01:00:51.000
bringing them back because they are important in the public

1238
01:00:51.000 --> 01:00:53.159
consciousness, I think you're starting to lose people.

1239
01:00:53.280 --> 01:00:56.159
Yes, compare how, I mean, even though I don't think it's a

1240
01:00:56.159 --> 01:00:58.980
particularly good story, but compare how the Sontarians are

1241
01:00:58.980 --> 01:01:00.719
brought back in series four, they're just kind of there.

1242
01:01:00.780 --> 01:01:04.079
They just are, there's not a requirement for you to go back and

1243
01:01:04.079 --> 01:01:07.920
take a short course to understand what the hell's going on.

1244
01:01:07.980 --> 01:01:11.639
To be fair, he does bring wrestle on back at the end of his 1st

1245
01:01:11.639 --> 01:01:12.119
era.

1246
01:01:12.179 --> 01:01:13.679
An equally terrible episode.

1247
01:01:13.739 --> 01:01:14.940
Yes, exactly.

1248
01:01:15.000 --> 01:01:15.539
Exactly, exactly.

1249
01:01:15.599 --> 01:01:16.440
Just please.

1250
01:01:16.619 --> 01:01:20.820
I think again, it's not whether you bring these things back, it's

1251
01:01:20.820 --> 01:01:21.300
how it's done.

1252
01:01:21.360 --> 01:01:25.260
And I wonder whether in this streaming platform era, the best way

1253
01:01:25.260 --> 01:01:29.280
to do that is to have sort of like a 3 episode story about Omega

1254
01:01:29.280 --> 01:01:31.500
and the time lords and that's something that you have, kind of

1255
01:01:31.500 --> 01:01:32.880
like, again, MCU, right?

1256
01:01:32.940 --> 01:01:36.360
You have these extended universe characters that sort of have

1257
01:01:36.360 --> 01:01:37.440
their own short series.

1258
01:01:37.500 --> 01:01:39.659
People are familiar with them, then they move on, and then they

1259
01:01:39.659 --> 01:01:42.000
bring them back together in the movies and everybody understands

1260
01:01:42.000 --> 01:01:45.059
who they are, because there was actually time to explore who they

1261
01:01:45.059 --> 01:01:46.860
were in another text.

1262
01:01:46.920 --> 01:01:50.519
I actually think Doctor Who is, is unfortunately at the moment

1263
01:01:50.519 --> 01:01:56.159
trapped between 2 styles of television, uh, because I don't know

1264
01:01:56.159 --> 01:02:00.599
if any of us watch anything that's broadcast on freeware

1265
01:02:00.599 --> 01:02:01.739
television, not at all.

1266
01:02:01.800 --> 01:02:02.820
No, right?

1267
01:02:02.880 --> 01:02:04.320
Everything we watch is streaming.

1268
01:02:04.380 --> 01:02:06.900
We watch it when we want, how we want it. you're going to follow a

1269
01:02:06.900 --> 01:02:08.820
series and this is what I think most people are like out there.

1270
01:02:08.880 --> 01:02:10.920
If you're going to follow a series, you watch it all, right?

1271
01:02:10.980 --> 01:02:15.179
I think Doctor Who is still, to some extent, being made as if it's

1272
01:02:15.179 --> 01:02:18.960
a broadcast thing where it's on once a week and you're supposed to

1273
01:02:18.960 --> 01:02:19.739
stand and watch it.

1274
01:02:19.800 --> 01:02:22.800
Whilst at the same time, understanding that we live in a streaming

1275
01:02:22.800 --> 01:02:27.719
world as well, and I think that when it finally sheds the need, and

1276
01:02:27.719 --> 01:02:30.960
it was, I thought it was going to shed that with this new RTD 2

1277
01:02:30.960 --> 01:02:32.639
era, but I don't think it has.

1278
01:02:32.699 --> 01:02:36.659
I think we're still living in this half and half existence.

1279
01:02:36.719 --> 01:02:40.980
And I think you'd be able to tell more complex stories and the

1280
01:02:40.980 --> 01:02:44.280
show would actually be overall a lot more engaging if it embraced

1281
01:02:44.280 --> 01:02:48.300
the understanding that we are in a streaming world now where we

1282
01:02:48.300 --> 01:02:49.800
watch it all or we don't watch it at all.

1283
01:02:49.920 --> 01:02:53.880
The oddity is that flux got, I think, the format, right?

1284
01:02:53.940 --> 01:02:55.500
But the quality of the storytelling.

1285
01:02:55.619 --> 01:02:58.139
It was a debacle in other ways, but absolutely.

1286
01:02:58.199 --> 01:03:01.559
I think it didn't fulfil the promise of what it could have been.

1287
01:03:01.619 --> 01:03:03.480
Which is a step in the right direction.

1288
01:03:03.539 --> 01:03:04.139
Exactly.

1289
01:03:04.199 --> 01:03:06.840
And then we reach it from that because of the fact that it was a

1290
01:03:06.840 --> 01:03:07.260
debacco.

1291
01:03:07.320 --> 01:03:08.039
And that's unfortunate.

1292
01:03:08.099 --> 01:03:09.000
It learnt the wrong lesson.

1293
01:03:09.059 --> 01:03:10.860
But it was a good idea.

1294
01:03:10.920 --> 01:03:14.340
It does manage to have 2 completely standalone episodes in the

1295
01:03:14.340 --> 01:03:17.880
middle of that, which might be the best 2 episodes, I think.

1296
01:03:17.940 --> 01:03:22.019
But telling a coherent story over 6 episodes.

1297
01:03:22.139 --> 01:03:26.159
I do think that these 8 episodes series have done that to some

1298
01:03:26.159 --> 01:03:26.639
degree.

1299
01:03:26.699 --> 01:03:29.760
And I do think that, you know, having a destination.

1300
01:03:29.820 --> 01:03:33.179
We've got May the 24th and we learn a little bit more about May

1301
01:03:33.179 --> 01:03:36.480
the 24th and then we get to go back to Earth and see what's

1302
01:03:36.480 --> 01:03:40.980
happening on Earth with unit and Ruby and stuff like that.

1303
01:03:41.039 --> 01:03:44.940
Like, I think that's actually quite a good arc that still permits

1304
01:03:44.940 --> 01:03:46.440
individual story.

1305
01:03:46.500 --> 01:03:48.780
So I don't think that's that's so bad.

1306
01:03:48.840 --> 01:03:52.920
I do think that the, you know, starting every episode, talking

1307
01:03:52.920 --> 01:03:54.360
about the vindicator.

1308
01:03:54.420 --> 01:03:58.320
It reminds me a little bit of series 6 where every episode we

1309
01:03:58.320 --> 01:04:01.679
start by talking about how Amy is or isn't pregnant.

1310
01:04:02.159 --> 01:04:08.159
You know, like, which is obviously from a time before streaming.

1311
01:04:08.219 --> 01:04:13.440
But I mean, you know, like streaming shows don't all drop at

1312
01:04:13.440 --> 01:04:13.800
once.

1313
01:04:13.860 --> 01:04:16.500
They do on Netflix, but they don't generally.

1314
01:04:16.559 --> 01:04:18.179
But you mean you would watch it.

1315
01:04:18.239 --> 01:04:19.980
Everyone watches it or doesn't watch.

1316
01:04:20.039 --> 01:04:20.639
You watch it.

1317
01:04:20.639 --> 01:04:21.659
You don't miss it.

1318
01:04:21.659 --> 01:04:24.059
Unless you give up after episode three, you decide. this isn't for

1319
01:04:24.059 --> 01:04:24.239
me.

1320
01:04:24.300 --> 01:04:27.659
But what you're saying is you don't you don't miss episode 4

1321
01:04:27.659 --> 01:04:29.400
because you were at the theatre that night.

1322
01:04:29.460 --> 01:04:30.179
You know what I mean?

1323
01:04:30.239 --> 01:04:32.579
And or because the video recorder is fine.

1324
01:04:32.639 --> 01:04:33.480
You know what I mean?

1325
01:04:33.539 --> 01:04:36.480
It's...

1326
01:04:36.480 --> 01:04:39.179
I'm very triggered about snake dance episode one when you'd

1327
01:04:39.179 --> 01:04:39.539
say...

1328
01:04:39.539 --> 01:04:41.880
I'm very triggered about Revelation of the Daleks episode by the

1329
01:04:41.880 --> 01:04:42.659
25 minute...

1330
01:04:42.659 --> 01:04:44.880
It was Vengeance on Fire...

1331
01:04:44.940 --> 01:04:47.099
It took me years to see that episode.

1332
01:04:47.219 --> 01:04:51.539
But my point being that Russell, with what you're saying with the

1333
01:04:51.539 --> 01:04:54.539
vindicator and with, you know, the heading towards May the 24th

1334
01:04:54.539 --> 01:04:57.239
and all that sort of stuff, is still reminiscent of the series

1335
01:04:57.239 --> 01:05:00.780
arcs that we've had in the Moffat era and in the original RTD one

1336
01:05:00.780 --> 01:05:03.480
era, even though, yes, they work differently, but they're still

1337
01:05:03.480 --> 01:05:08.039
like, it's not exactly the key to time either, where each story is

1338
01:05:08.039 --> 01:05:10.380
about something, which is leading us to this climax.

1339
01:05:10.440 --> 01:05:14.519
Having Mrs. Flood appear at the end of each episode does not an

1340
01:05:14.519 --> 01:05:15.599
arc make for me.

1341
01:05:15.659 --> 01:05:18.360
It just makes a kind of a gimmick for me.

1342
01:05:18.420 --> 01:05:22.019
And I think that's what it's difficult for me to describe what I

1343
01:05:22.019 --> 01:05:24.420
want the series to do because I'm not saying I want it to be like

1344
01:05:24.420 --> 01:05:26.940
an 8 episode long story, which is all of a sudden.

1345
01:05:27.000 --> 01:05:28.139
I'm not saying that at all.

1346
01:05:28.199 --> 01:05:30.179
And I'm not saying that they all should be self-contained either.

1347
01:05:30.239 --> 01:05:33.539
I suppose what I'm saying is, you know, we've just been praising

1348
01:05:33.539 --> 01:05:36.000
the Impossible Planet earlier about how brilliant it was.

1349
01:05:36.059 --> 01:05:39.960
And for me, the longer format of story, doing them over 2 episodes

1350
01:05:39.960 --> 01:05:44.159
3 even, and not because they're episodes that run into each other

1351
01:05:44.159 --> 01:05:47.699
but because they're actually telling one whole story, is a better

1352
01:05:47.699 --> 01:05:50.579
model and which you can do, given the fact that people are

1353
01:05:50.579 --> 01:05:52.619
streaming it and watching it all or nothing anyway.

1354
01:05:52.679 --> 01:05:54.000
So I'm in question.

1355
01:05:54.059 --> 01:05:58.079
If a monoid had a period in another episode, would that for you an

1356
01:05:58.079 --> 01:05:58.739
arc make?

1357
01:06:00.659 --> 01:06:02.159
No, that was VR.

1358
01:06:02.639 --> 01:06:06.179
I'll have the winner if I'm going to have an arc.

1359
01:06:26.519 --> 01:06:30.239
Well, that's all the time we have for this week and for this

1360
01:06:30.239 --> 01:06:30.480
season.

1361
01:06:30.539 --> 01:06:35.219
We'll be back later in the year for season three of 500 year diary

1362
01:06:35.219 --> 01:06:36.780
The Colour of Monsters.

1363
01:06:37.320 --> 01:06:41.340
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts

1364
01:06:41.340 --> 01:06:45.300
and you can keep up with us on our website, 500yearDiary.com, where

1365
01:06:45.300 --> 01:06:48.719
you'll find our social media links, as well as links to all of our

1366
01:06:48.719 --> 01:06:52.980
other podcasts, including our other Doctor Who podcasts, Flight

1367
01:06:52.980 --> 01:06:56.039
through Entirety, and the 2nd great and bountiful Human Empire.

1368
01:06:56.340 --> 01:07:00.539
Until next time, always leave them wanting more.

1369
01:07:00.599 --> 01:07:02.519
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

1370
01:07:02.639 --> 01:07:03.480
Good night.

1371
01:07:03.599 --> 01:07:06.000
Until then, be seeing you.

1372
01:07:16.800 --> 01:07:21.599
That was 500 Year Diary starring Nathan Bottomley, Stephen B, Simon

1373
01:07:21.599 --> 01:07:23.579
Moore, and Peter Griffiths.

1374
01:07:23.639 --> 01:07:25.739
The theme was composed by Cameron Lamb.

1375
01:07:25.800 --> 01:07:30.659
This episode, behind her, was recorded on the 15th of June 2025

1376
01:07:30.659 --> 01:07:32.340
and released on the 5th of July.

1377
01:07:33.179 --> 01:07:37.320
Thank you to everyone who joined us on the sofa for the 2nd season

1378
01:07:37.320 --> 01:07:41.940
of 500-year diary, Adam Richard, Jeremy Radick, Mark McManus, Kate

1379
01:07:41.940 --> 01:07:46.920
Orman, Hannah Cooper, Pete Lambert, and Stephen B, and we'll see

1380
01:07:46.920 --> 01:07:47.880
you all later in the year.

1381
01:08:02.940 --> 01:08:04.380
I...

1382
01:08:04.380 --> 01:08:05.579
Have you got an ad?

1383
01:08:05.639 --> 01:08:07.019
No, I think I've got an ad.

1384
01:08:07.079 --> 01:08:08.340
I always have an out.

1385
01:08:08.880 --> 01:08:11.880
Not the awesome out that we have this week.

1386
01:08:11.940 --> 01:08:13.920
No, no, no, well, nothing's good.

1387
01:08:14.280 --> 01:08:17.640
If I can just sort of get a bit more to talk about the episode

1388
01:08:17.640 --> 01:08:20.159
itself of the well, a bit more.

1389
01:08:20.220 --> 01:08:23.939
The thing that I think it does really, well, and interestingly, is

1390
01:08:23.939 --> 01:08:27.119
that impressive opening where they basically land somewhere and

1391
01:08:27.119 --> 01:08:28.500
then jump out.

1392
01:08:28.500 --> 01:08:30.479
Like to a sky typing.

1393
01:08:30.539 --> 01:08:34.979
Yes, that's, that's great for, and again, this is kind of goes

1394
01:08:34.979 --> 01:08:37.380
back to what I was saying about the fact that that's made for a

1395
01:08:37.380 --> 01:08:40.380
free to wear television thing where we've got to capture them

1396
01:08:40.439 --> 01:08:42.720
capture the audience in the 1st couple of minutes or we've lost

1397
01:08:42.720 --> 01:08:45.539
them where they'll go and turn the channel to something else

1398
01:08:45.539 --> 01:08:45.779
right?

1399
01:08:45.840 --> 01:08:46.260
Maybe.

1400
01:08:46.319 --> 01:08:46.979
I don't know.

1401
01:08:47.039 --> 01:08:48.960
Maybe that's what it kind of wrecks off for me.

1402
01:08:49.020 --> 01:08:52.260
But then when we land on the planet, when we arrive on the actual

1403
01:08:52.260 --> 01:08:52.680
planet.

1404
01:08:52.739 --> 01:08:58.739
There's this very long, painful for me series of exposition, with

1405
01:08:58.739 --> 01:09:02.640
the help of the psychic paper, which I just wish went the way of

1406
01:09:02.640 --> 01:09:03.960
canine kind of thing.

1407
01:09:04.020 --> 01:09:06.960
It's like it's just a cheat to get the doctor involved.

1408
01:09:07.020 --> 01:09:07.859
There's so many more...

1409
01:09:07.859 --> 01:09:08.819
Burned up by a ptero lectol.

1410
01:09:08.880 --> 01:09:11.100
That would be that exact sonic screwdriver.

1411
01:09:11.159 --> 01:09:11.399
Thank you.

1412
01:09:11.460 --> 01:09:15.539
It feels incredibly inelegant the way things kind of then unfold

1413
01:09:15.539 --> 01:09:18.479
from there for the next 5 minutes or so where you get all this

1414
01:09:18.479 --> 01:09:21.000
exposition in a way which is very ugly.

1415
01:09:21.000 --> 01:09:26.460
And I think you could learn as they're getting up to when they

1416
01:09:26.460 --> 01:09:27.000
meet Alice.

1417
01:09:27.060 --> 01:09:30.000
There's all sorts of opportunities for the doctor and Belinda, and

1418
01:09:30.000 --> 01:09:33.600
therefore the audience, to find out where we are, why are we here

1419
01:09:33.600 --> 01:09:35.399
what are these people doing, et cetera, et cetera.

1420
01:09:35.520 --> 01:09:38.880
And yes, you need some kind of mechanism to make sure that they

1421
01:09:38.880 --> 01:09:41.460
don't just want to arrest the doctor and bell lender because

1422
01:09:41.460 --> 01:09:43.739
they're, you know, they didn't come down with us.

1423
01:09:43.800 --> 01:09:45.420
But it's just inelegant.

1424
01:09:45.659 --> 01:09:49.020
I think, though, that it does give us some decent gags and stuff

1425
01:09:49.020 --> 01:09:50.760
and it gives Belinda the chance to be smart.

1426
01:09:50.819 --> 01:09:52.319
But they're sort of cheap gags.

1427
01:09:52.380 --> 01:09:55.800
Or gags or gags, you know, like, I don't think they're terrible

1428
01:09:55.800 --> 01:09:56.220
gags.

1429
01:09:56.279 --> 01:09:57.600
I think they're pretty fun.

1430
01:09:57.659 --> 01:10:01.140
And I also think too, you know, the way that this thing is

1431
01:10:01.140 --> 01:10:03.359
structured is it's got to show us the sets.

1432
01:10:03.420 --> 01:10:05.279
It's got to build up the atmosphere.

1433
01:10:05.340 --> 01:10:06.720
We get to find dead bodies.

1434
01:10:06.779 --> 01:10:10.140
We get to find kind of trashed quarters and stuff like that.

1435
01:10:10.199 --> 01:10:14.640
So we get to gradually learn what sort of disaster has unfolded

1436
01:10:14.640 --> 01:10:14.939
here.

1437
01:10:15.000 --> 01:10:21.000
And so like I'm not quite sure what you mean by...

1438
01:10:21.060 --> 01:10:25.439
There's, there's all the stuff that, uh, where, when they, as soon

1439
01:10:25.439 --> 01:10:27.899
as they've kind of landed feet 1st on the, on the planet that

1440
01:10:27.899 --> 01:10:30.180
there's a kind of this interrogation scene going on.

1441
01:10:30.180 --> 01:10:33.960
And all that, in everything that you just described, all of that

1442
01:10:33.960 --> 01:10:38.039
sequence could be told in all, during all those other sequences as

1443
01:10:38.039 --> 01:10:38.220
well.

1444
01:10:38.220 --> 01:10:41.159
If there was just a little bit more care, I think, done in, in

1445
01:10:41.159 --> 01:10:43.439
that, it's kind of like, oh, there, I understand.

1446
01:10:43.439 --> 01:10:44.760
The storytelling's not told on the run.

1447
01:10:44.819 --> 01:10:47.760
We're given an info dump and then they go, and then they move in.

1448
01:10:47.819 --> 01:10:51.479
And then they move in, which is, I think, for me, a floor with a

1449
01:10:51.479 --> 01:10:55.859
lot of the RTD 2 era, and particularly in that finale is that you

1450
01:10:55.859 --> 01:10:58.800
get this kind of these needs for info dumps.

1451
01:10:58.800 --> 01:11:02.159
And they can be info dumps about stuff that you don't even

1452
01:11:02.159 --> 01:11:03.239
necessarily need to know.

1453
01:11:03.300 --> 01:11:04.560
You certainly don't need to know right now.

1454
01:11:04.619 --> 01:11:07.739
It's kind of, I mean, is there that much information delivered in

1455
01:11:07.739 --> 01:11:08.159
that scene?

1456
01:11:08.220 --> 01:11:10.680
Like we discovered that it's a mercury mining thing?

1457
01:11:10.739 --> 01:11:13.739
Is there anything else very much that we're told about?

1458
01:11:14.100 --> 01:11:16.560
Why we can't leave immediately.

1459
01:11:16.619 --> 01:11:19.079
I just feel that it could be done better.

1460
01:11:19.140 --> 01:11:22.380
Yeah, it doesn't seem to be a lot of information though.

1461
01:11:22.439 --> 01:11:25.739
And a lot of stuff is conveyed visually by getting us to look

1462
01:11:25.739 --> 01:11:28.680
across at the. also this stupid sort of awkward way of the doctor

1463
01:11:28.680 --> 01:11:31.619
and Belinda pretending to be, you know, inspectors or whatever the

1464
01:11:31.619 --> 01:11:32.039
hell they are.

1465
01:11:32.100 --> 01:11:34.979
And it's just, it's just, it's a gag that I've seen too many times

1466
01:11:34.979 --> 01:11:35.340
before.

1467
01:11:35.399 --> 01:11:36.300
They do it a lot.

1468
01:11:36.359 --> 01:11:39.000
It's a gag that kind of worked at 1st couple of times with a

1469
01:11:39.000 --> 01:11:41.640
psychic paper and now that is what's feeling repetitive.

1470
01:11:41.699 --> 01:11:44.760
I think, though, that that might be the 1st use of the psychic

1471
01:11:44.760 --> 01:11:45.899
paper by Shooty.

1472
01:11:45.899 --> 01:11:50.880
Oh, he was health and safety gin and tonic division in the church

1473
01:11:50.880 --> 01:11:51.720
on Ruby Road.

1474
01:11:51.779 --> 01:11:54.060
Sounds like that would be more something the Rani would be.

1475
01:11:55.020 --> 01:11:58.380
I will say that one of the things that I really appreciate about

1476
01:11:58.380 --> 01:12:02.220
this episode, and I liked the 1st time I saw it, and I liked it

1477
01:12:02.220 --> 01:12:06.960
more the 2nd time I saw it, which is not a model for the shoot era

1478
01:12:06.960 --> 01:12:12.180
for me in general, is that I appreciate its slow burn.

1479
01:12:12.239 --> 01:12:16.199
It's really nice that in an era of not just in Doctor 2, but in

1480
01:12:16.199 --> 01:12:20.159
wider television, of frenetic storytelling, where you're bouncing

1481
01:12:20.159 --> 01:12:21.899
from one thing to another really quickly.

1482
01:12:21.960 --> 01:12:24.899
You've got expedited exposition coming out.

1483
01:12:24.960 --> 01:12:26.220
You've got to pick things up quickly.

1484
01:12:26.279 --> 01:12:28.979
I loved the fact that it just took it slowly.

1485
01:12:29.100 --> 01:12:31.199
There's not very much in it.

1486
01:12:31.260 --> 01:12:34.619
It's a little bit like what you said, Simon, about midnight.

1487
01:12:34.680 --> 01:12:37.140
Basically, what happens is we arrive.

1488
01:12:37.199 --> 01:12:38.640
We find out what's going on.

1489
01:12:38.699 --> 01:12:43.979
We get that disastrous scene where Cassio takes over and has all

1490
01:12:43.979 --> 01:12:46.800
those people killed and then we bolt, you know, we defeat the

1491
01:12:46.800 --> 01:12:47.760
thing and then we leave.

1492
01:12:47.819 --> 01:12:51.239
There's very, very little action and a lot of time is just given, I

1493
01:12:51.239 --> 01:12:52.260
think, to atmosphere.

1494
01:12:52.260 --> 01:12:59.039
And yeah, so I think it does basically what midnight does, because

1495
01:12:59.039 --> 01:13:01.739
it doesn't have a complex premise.

1496
01:13:01.800 --> 01:13:05.699
And because in a sense, this is something that we've seen a lot of

1497
01:13:05.699 --> 01:13:06.180
times before.

1498
01:13:06.239 --> 01:13:09.420
It's like the shorthand that you get from having a Dalek story.

1499
01:13:09.479 --> 01:13:12.659
You know, you don't have to explain the Dalek's motivations or why

1500
01:13:12.659 --> 01:13:15.539
they've got egg whisks or...

1501
01:13:15.600 --> 01:13:17.340
Like, you know all that stuff.

1502
01:13:17.520 --> 01:13:25.619
So in a way, I think it manages to, you know, whereas, whereas

1503
01:13:25.619 --> 01:13:28.619
something like the finale where we spend a lot of time explaining

1504
01:13:28.619 --> 01:13:32.460
who Omega is, only for him to come out and just eat her and then

1505
01:13:32.460 --> 01:13:33.000
go back in.

1506
01:13:33.060 --> 01:13:34.260
And that's kind of it.

1507
01:13:34.319 --> 01:13:34.800
Yeah, yeah.

1508
01:13:34.859 --> 01:13:37.380
That seemed like a lot of expositions.

1509
01:13:37.439 --> 01:13:38.880
For what was that?

1510
01:13:38.939 --> 01:13:40.079
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1511
01:13:40.140 --> 01:13:43.859
Oh, no, no, I'll certainly pay this as far as atmosphere and broad

1512
01:13:43.859 --> 01:13:44.220
structure.

1513
01:13:44.279 --> 01:13:46.739
I'm just kind of saying where things can be done better.

1514
01:13:46.800 --> 01:13:51.479
And I think that that opening five, 7 minutes, whatever it is, is

1515
01:13:51.479 --> 01:13:53.640
I, and the sequence that we've already had in the TARDIS with a

1516
01:13:53.640 --> 01:13:56.220
costume change, which is not the sort of thing that I, I'm a

1517
01:13:56.220 --> 01:13:59.579
particular fan of doing it in that kind of goodies, magic cupboard

1518
01:13:59.579 --> 01:14:00.060
kind of way.

1519
01:14:00.119 --> 01:14:02.819
Um, but...

1520
01:14:02.819 --> 01:14:05.579
Favourite things about the new era.

1521
01:14:05.640 --> 01:14:07.920
Putting that to one side.

1522
01:14:07.979 --> 01:14:11.699
I think everything you said, Peter, is absolutely correct, but

1523
01:14:11.699 --> 01:14:16.560
from that point from about 5 or 6 or 7, whatever it is, minutes in

1524
01:14:16.560 --> 01:14:18.899
then I think it knows what it's doing.

1525
01:14:18.960 --> 01:14:22.920
It's that 1st bit where it's a bit kind of how are we going to get

1526
01:14:22.920 --> 01:14:23.819
this started?

1527
01:14:23.880 --> 01:14:24.899
How are we going to get into this?

1528
01:14:24.960 --> 01:14:27.479
And midnight does that so much more elegantly with them. almost

1529
01:14:27.479 --> 01:14:29.399
like, let's get all of this out of the way, so then we can have

1530
01:14:29.399 --> 01:14:33.000
that. can have the episode we want and I don't think it's done.

1531
01:14:33.060 --> 01:14:37.079
I think it just feels to me clumsy compared to the way we get into

1532
01:14:37.079 --> 01:14:40.920
midnight where, you know, Donna's lying by the pool, the doctor's

1533
01:14:40.920 --> 01:14:42.720
calling is saying, oh, come, come, you must come.

1534
01:14:42.779 --> 01:14:43.920
That's shot.

1535
01:14:44.039 --> 01:14:47.399
Remember where Iran is boarding, boarding the bus behind him.

1536
01:14:47.460 --> 01:14:49.140
He's on a public phone.

1537
01:14:49.199 --> 01:14:50.640
It's awesome It's a way.

1538
01:14:50.699 --> 01:14:54.000
See, that's a much more elegant way of getting us into the story

1539
01:14:54.000 --> 01:14:57.420
as quickly as we can because we've only got 45 minutes, whereas I

1540
01:14:57.420 --> 01:15:01.260
think the, well, unfortunately, because of other reasons, it has

1541
01:15:01.260 --> 01:15:04.079
to do all this other rubbish first, which I think gets in the

1542
01:15:04.079 --> 01:15:04.380
way.

1543
01:15:04.439 --> 01:15:08.460
Well, I think we should wind up because I have to just say

1544
01:15:08.460 --> 01:15:08.760
wealth.

1545
01:15:08.760 --> 01:15:10.800
Finish the I have to finish.

1546
01:15:10.859 --> 01:15:13.020
I have to finish time in the Rani.

1547
01:15:13.680 --> 01:15:15.119
Yes.

1548
01:15:15.180 --> 01:15:18.359
And let's get talking about the well out of the way so that we can

1549
01:15:18.359 --> 01:15:19.560
talk about the time arrived.