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This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 09:05:47

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to 500 year diary.

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The only Doctor Who podcast emerging slowly from the waters of the Thames, in the hope of kicking off an exciting second year.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Peter.

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I'm Simon. and I'm Todd.

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It's the 21st of November, 1964.

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It's been 11 months since Jackie Hill was forced to scream at a sink plunger, and tonight, 11400000 people have tuned in for a rematch.

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From shrieking racist robots in some futuristic space corridors to the doctor's greatest and most mythic enemy.

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Let's see how, and if, that transformation is achieved, in the Dalek invasion of Earth.

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Let's say something about this story that I don't think is said very often.

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It's really not very well made, is it?

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I think that's indisputable.

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There are, I think, parts of it that are very well made, and that just stands in stock relief to all the parts that aren't.

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There's definitely things that are disappointing about the production.

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A lot of it unfortunately does come down to the director.

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I also want to say a lot of it comes down to the designer as well.

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You can tell that Ray Koustic has not been a designer. this story.

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But having said that, I think it tries very hard.

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And I think part of the reason for a lot of the failures is because it's being scripted as if it is a fully budgeted feature film.

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Like it's almost being scripted for the feature film remake rather than for it to be filmed in a microscopic studio.

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It's very interesting because I realised as I was watching this, I actually know the movie better than this.

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Oh, absolutely, me too.

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And I kept comparing it to the movie.

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And I even kept saying to myself, this is like the pilot episode, not even the pilot episode for American series where they've given them money to say go and film something, right?

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With this script, and we won't give you enough to do all the special effects, you can just have like a shot of a UFO that you're going to zoom in on.

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You going to have like baby crocodiles.

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You're going to have, near enough is good enough with some performances like, and you're going to present it to us.

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And then you present it to us, and then we just tighten up the script at the end and focus on the mining at the quarry and give you a much bigger Dalek set, and all those big set pieces will give you money for in the robe, and men will look much better and we'll go and film the movie as the pilot episode.

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Well, actually, the Robaman, I thought that about the Robaman, the 1st time I saw it, whenever it was, the early 90s, because again, I was so used to the film, but I actually think these robamen are far more awful looking because you've got the bits of wire and you've got the kind of the white skull cap which goes on.

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Yes, when they pull off the helmet and they've got the skull cap on it.

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It looks awful.

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It looks awful. and the performances are all like they are, the walking dead, they're zombies.

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So in some respects, in hindsight, I think that they do make the right decision with the Roman, I think the slick version of the Roman, you get in the film, is actually the wrong decision for what they are.

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And let's just say there's no scene in this Dalek invasion of Earth where the road men are lining up to get their food and it's all comedy slapstick.

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Comedy relief, yes.

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Yes.

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I would say that this might be the fullest example in all of Doctor Who of the sum being more than its parts.

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I want to compare it to like the other 2 Dalek stories on either side of it because Richard Martin obviously directs about half of the Daleks, is that right?

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Yes, 4 a half.

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Yeah.

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And then he directs the chase.

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Which is the poorer.

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Which is the poorer third.

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And I actually remember the last time I watched the chase for another podcast that I was appearing in, that I was absolutely horrified by how terrible it looked, like just how extraordinarily poor it was.

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And I remember it might have been the 1st black and white story that I ever saw in kind of reasonable condition because it was part of that box set, with remembrance of the dialects on the chase.

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And I saw the chase and I thought, oh, that must be what 1960s Doctor Who is like.

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And often that is what 1960s Doctor Who is like.

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It doesn't have to be like that.

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And certainly after we get the chase, we get the dialect master plan and the surviving episodes of that that are directed by Douglas Campfield.

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And of course, that is one of the enduring mysteries of Richard Martin, who I'm sure we'll talk lots more about, being given after his work on the Daleks.

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The big episodes of the series, Darlic Invasion of Earth, the Chase, the Web Planet.

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He is entirely the wrong director for those stories.

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He's the right director, I think, for maybe some other stories.

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But suddenly when you get to Starlet Masterplan, and you've got Dougie in charge.

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It all works.

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And it's amazing.

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Even in sort of tiny studios, even with all of the, you know, restrictions, budgetary restrictions, and so on.

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It wasn't inevitable that you would have Richard Martin just point a camera at something that's vaguely happening in the foreground.

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I actually don't think that that's why it's terrible.

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I don't think it's not laziness.

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First of all, just going back to the 1st point about why does Richard Martin get to do those three?

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What are effectively the 3 showcase?

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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I think it may be to do with.

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Look, his episodes of the Daleks, I think, are his best work, as in the original show, original serial, are I think his best work on the show.

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That will play into something I'll say later.

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Yes, but that's probably partly because he's already got it all set up, thanks to Christopher Barry and Ray Cuzick, which is very, very vitally. was very, very vital to the success of that story.

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What you get on the DVD extras, and I was watching, I didn't watch all of it, but what most of the making of documentation of Earth are this.

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And they all say how lovely he was, and I think it's Bernard Kay who said that he didn't really get things right sometimes, or at least it was all too much of a nice place to be.

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So with these directors, A, you need to find someone who is available and willing and even though the show's new, it's still like, 0 God, do I really want to work on that?

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It sounds like a complete nightmare.

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He probably was also brought in because he kept the place happy.

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He kept everything ticking along.

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We got to Friday night.

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We shot it all, whenever it was, and we got through it.

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I think his problem is, is that he doesn't, he's got all that time in rehearsal in acting or wherever it is.

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And then you have such a tiny amount of time in the studio.

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And I think what it comes down to is his ambition for that, is that his vision for that, is not possible within the multicamera studio environment.

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Because if you look at the film shots, you know, running through London and all that sort of stuff, they are well shot, good angles, interesting choices.

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Like even when, you know, when Dortmund is on the ground after he's been killed lying there while they drive the truck out, you know, it's an interesting angle.

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He's trying to do all that and it's just not possible with his clunky cameras, but he's not taking that into account when he's doing his camera script.

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So the cameramen are trying to get from A to B. They're not making it to here.

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They're not making it to there.

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So I don't think it's the fact that the camera just pointed in a random spot.

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I think it ends up being pointed in a random spot because it can't get to where it's supposed to be.

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Let me add something to this and also I'll push back on something.

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So I think Richard Martin was trying to create art.

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I interviewed him for 3 hours in 1995.

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And what constantly came across was that he was frustrated in his goals.

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He wanted to create something amazing and never could.

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Now, you can debate where the fault for that lies.

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Obviously, if you're trying to create art, it's almost impossible under the restrictions that you have making an episode of Doc 2 in 70 minutes in the studio.

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So, who works the Doctor Who is people who make the very best that they can within the limitations that they're working under?

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He was always shooting for the sky and frequently missing, and that is much worse than lowering your sights a little bit and achieving something that is pretty good.

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Now, I also...

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There is absolutely a happy medium, yes.

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And I want to push back a little bit on this characterisation of Richard as someone who is kind of either well-meaning and liked by the team or who just placed his cameras.

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I think he would entirely disagree with that and I think I would as well.

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I think he viewed himself as an iconoclastic bomb thrower.

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He was trying to blow everything up and do everything his way and get people to produce some art, damn it.

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Of course, he didn't succeed.

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Mostly.

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He did occasionally, but he was not a Morris Barry.

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He wasn't someone who went in and said, oh, that'll do, love.

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He was always striving for more.

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It's just a case if he was striving for far too much.

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And even the stuff on the web planet is noticeably better, I think, than certainly the stuff on either Dalek conversion of earth or the chase.

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Don't you think?

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Yes, I think it's really interesting what you've both said.

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Obviously, you've got a personal experience of talking to him and finding out all this information.

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I think what you've said is that I think it's far worse that he strive to do so much and frequently misses because then surely you would adjust yourself saying, like, you know, in the chase, by the time you get to chase, okay, I know I can't do as much.

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So let's pull it back a bit and I'm going to get it much more on target and that still doesn't happen.

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And I think that is, well, it's just going to sound horrible, unforgivable.

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And at points in this, I was just sitting there going, this is the attack on the Dalek spaceship and it's like one punch and the robomen are down.

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Like it's not even a punch.

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Those sequences are just we've had a week of rehearsal and this is what you're giving me.

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I mean, he's incredibly poor at action in the studio.

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Yes, 100%.

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I agree, bad.

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He can't cover.

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No.

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And that's hugely evident, I think, in the chase where you've got the big fight on a radius, and you've got the big fight in the haunted house.

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And both of them are just, there's a camera distant from the action pointing over everyone's head and things are happening.

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And that scene at the helipad.

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I think he's really quite terrible.

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Sluggish and odd.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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I think there's a reason for this because he said to me that he would have these complicated camera scripts where he was trying to cover the action.

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It would all just go horribly wrong and the vision mixer would say get out of the way, Clive, and just do some cutting, usually to the wide shot that was covering everything, which is probably why it's all just started to disintegrate in the shot choice.

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And they've just cut to the wide shop, which is why there's characters and daleks going backwards and forwards.

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And often waiting for something to happen so that they can do their bit. absolutely.

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And so I think it's exactly what Simon said.

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The cameras can't get there.

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His camera scripts are too complicated.

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He's asking too much of the camera people to be able to get into position to get that shot.

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So they're always a 2nd late.

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It cuts to them and they're always still focussing or sort of wobbling onto the MCU that they want.

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And then you miss the action, and like Todd said, the chase becomes the most egregious example, where in the haunted house episode, Everything you need to see happens a 2nd before offscreen.

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Yeah.

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And what I would say to follow up on Todd's point and to push back on you, Peter, is that why hasn't he learned his lesson by that?

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Oh, there's no pushback. agree with you.

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You do what I mean?

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And I think that, okay, that's a reason for it being rubbish in Dalek invasion of Earth.

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And maybe he gets away with it a little bit in Web Planet, and he thinks it, alt, was just a cumbersome nature of the costumes and so on, which is why we couldn't do that.

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But then, yeah, the chase is the most egregious example, as you say.

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I really like what you had to say about the location work.

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This is the 1st time I've had so much location work integrated into a Doctor Who story.

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Because Rand of Chair is the first, isn't it?

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But it's just a long shot with someone else playing the doctor.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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We're used to as children of the late 70s, early 80s.

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We're used to Doctor Who with location work integrated in with studio work and it's just 2nd nature to us.

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But this is the 1st time the show is really doing it.

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So I have to give it kudos for that.

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You know, we're trying something new.

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Technology is moving on.

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We've got bigger budgets.

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We are really trying to move. going to the next level.

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And this is the thing.

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When you look at television, whether it be in the United States or whether it be in the UK.

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If you look at like 61 to 64, and if you look at like, say, 67 to 69, there is a big change, because we've got newer technology, we've got used to the techniques of television, we've got a different psyche around, you know, the swinging 60s, et cetera.

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I have 200 lines on the screen.

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True.

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But where we are, you've got to start somewhere in terms of pushing the technology forward.

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And this is where I think over from this, well, all of Doctor Who, but really these next 2 seasons, up until around like the moon-based sort of macro terror where we're sort of much more Doctor Who is Doctor Who as we know it, like these next 2 years are pushing that envelope and trying with that technology and we're going to have failures and not.

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And so for that matter, for this time round, the 1st time round that we're really doing it.

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You know, we've got to start somewhere.

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Do you notice something about the location work, about a lot of the location work?

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Is it that Britain in the 60s looks like post-war Britain and they've lost the war?

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Or that the Daleks have invaded?

171
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No, it's the fact that actually only a very small amount of it has sink sound.

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I picked this up because I think when we were at University Peter, we were shown in episode, we would have been homicide, which was dated, which is I think was 964 as well.

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And they made a particular point when they showed it to us.

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None of the location work in it, had sync sound.

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It was people getting out of cars, it was walking up to the police station, so on like that because it was just too difficult to be able to do it.

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And so all the stuff running through Trafalgar Square running across, you know, Westminster Bridge and stuff.

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It's all silent. and even the stuff with the van and so on crashing to the Daleks, that sound is all folded later.

178
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What about the stuff in episode one?

179
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Oh, there is some, it's not I not saying all of it. a surprising amount of it when you think about it is mute, basically.

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And of course, that's down to the scheduling because they were like guerilla filmers, not...

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They had to like get in and shoot it and get out and doing that without sound enables that.

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You can basically set up the camera.

183
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Because a film camera is so light in comparison to a video camera.

184
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That's right.

185
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Other day.

186
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Also, you noticed the lighting in the location shot.

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It's not very good. just going with what is the available.

188
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Of course.

189
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Unfortunately, it's sunny day.

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They have to snatch that 102nd interval when they're down on the embankment when there's no one walking through the background and no one coming through the form.

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There is someone in the background of Trafalgar Square, I noticed, and there is someone there is a...

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And there is a lorry.

193
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There is a lorry or something at the very end of Whitehall.

194
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Just very, very...

195
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I did notice those.

196
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It's like the blue array. thanks to the Blu-ray.

197
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Didn't you?

198
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I did I was watching them.

199
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I had to reduce the size of the window on the screen when I was watching it just because the picture quality on like a giant monitor.

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You can see the lines. terrible.

201
00:15:18.840 --> 00:15:19.919
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

202
00:15:19.980 --> 00:15:21.059
So sort of bringing it right down.

203
00:15:21.120 --> 00:15:34.320
I was obviously on the flight through the entirety episode that covered this and the thing that struck me most in context, you know, having watched Doctor Who threw all the way through to this point. all those episodes.

204
00:15:34.379 --> 00:15:36.419
Marco Polo, Mariners, and something.

205
00:15:36.480 --> 00:15:39.179
It's a lot Sorry to disappoint you.

206
00:15:39.240 --> 00:15:43.679
I think it was only 44, but...

207
00:15:43.799 --> 00:15:45.600
Depends for count part 4 of Paul.

208
00:15:45.659 --> 00:15:46.679
No, we're not counting.

209
00:15:46.740 --> 00:15:52.379
Like the location thing is absolutely the most striking thing.

210
00:15:52.440 --> 00:15:56.879
And because everyone's tuning in, I think next week gets slightly more viewers than this week.

211
00:15:56.940 --> 00:15:57.960
12.4.

212
00:15:58.139 --> 00:16:01.019
And the last episode also gets 12.4 as well.

213
00:16:01.080 --> 00:16:02.759
But everyone loves Sandy.

214
00:16:02.820 --> 00:16:04.919
It's kind of a cap, really.

215
00:16:04.980 --> 00:16:06.299
The ceiling.

216
00:16:06.360 --> 00:16:10.320
But this had been this had kind of been on the radio times.

217
00:16:10.379 --> 00:16:12.480
Everyone knew that it's a Dalek story.

218
00:16:12.539 --> 00:16:23.940
And so everyone is tuning in, and I think people who haven't tuned in since the Daleks were 1st on, and they had to be kind of some of them in there must have been going, oh my god, look, what's happened to this show?

219
00:16:24.000 --> 00:16:24.539
It looks amazing.

220
00:16:24.600 --> 00:16:26.460
But also it's outside factors.

221
00:16:26.519 --> 00:16:35.159
Yes, it gets great ratings because the Daleks are back and there's radio times cover, but also the Daleks has shown up in the lead up to Christmas and the Christmas holidays, the rescue is shown in the early new year.

222
00:16:35.220 --> 00:16:36.960
Yeah, there's a huge available audience.

223
00:16:37.019 --> 00:16:38.879
So they did this on purpose.

224
00:16:38.940 --> 00:16:41.220
They knew they'd have a big audience and they delivered.

225
00:16:41.279 --> 00:16:48.600
What I like is the fact that they're still playing to their limitations, the fact that yes, they've got to get in and out of that location filming.

226
00:16:48.659 --> 00:16:54.000
And so as Simon said, there's very little sink sound, there's no lighting set up on the location, they just go for it.

227
00:16:54.059 --> 00:17:05.220
But also, they had to record this story now because it's the end of the production block, and it's the only time they're able to actually find those days to get out and film it.

228
00:17:05.339 --> 00:17:06.539
It's like going forwards.

229
00:17:06.599 --> 00:17:10.019
The smugglers has lots of location filming because it's the end of the recording.

230
00:17:10.140 --> 00:17:16.920
The abominable snowmen and the invasion have lots of location filming because it's the start of their production blocks.

231
00:17:16.980 --> 00:17:23.099
And so they know what they're doing with utilising their resources for pushing them as far as they can.

232
00:17:32.759 --> 00:17:54.660
Just going back to the Richard Martin thing, again, I just wanted to pick up on the designer aspect, because when you were talking about the attack on the Dalek spaceship, I think that's where the frankly, quite rubbish sets are in evidence most, because you've got the operation bed where people are robotised, which is just on the other side of a small space where the cells are off.

233
00:17:54.720 --> 00:18:06.180
Now, I know that the studio is microscopic, but the way that is shot as well is just awful because when, you know, the doctor's lying on the bed and Tyler's behind that tiny wall and all this action's happening.

234
00:18:06.240 --> 00:18:07.799
You just don't get a sense.

235
00:18:07.859 --> 00:18:19.079
Like, it's just so awfully cramped and actually have a continuous crab, which breaks television grammar completely, where you go from outside that set and then just crab across to inside the set.

236
00:18:19.140 --> 00:18:21.240
And it's very clear that there's no wall there.

237
00:18:21.299 --> 00:18:22.859
You can see where the wall ends.

238
00:18:22.920 --> 00:18:27.900
And he does it again later in that episode where Ian is hiding in the little bolt hole underneath.

239
00:18:27.960 --> 00:18:31.079
And so he shoots in a little pot, but he shoots too wide.

240
00:18:31.079 --> 00:18:33.359
So you can see that it's actually cuts away.

241
00:18:33.420 --> 00:18:37.619
You should be in close with him to give the impression and then cut to the top and he comes out.

242
00:18:37.740 --> 00:18:39.720
There's no opportunity for retake.

243
00:18:39.779 --> 00:18:43.440
There is, but all you have to say is camera 3 getting closer, love.

244
00:18:43.500 --> 00:18:46.200
Well, it's too late, but it's too late by then, frankly.

245
00:18:46.259 --> 00:18:47.160
That's the problem.

246
00:18:47.279 --> 00:18:49.980
Yes, there's no opportunity for retakes.

247
00:18:50.039 --> 00:18:54.660
Like, you know, when they attack that robber man, and then he has to bump into the equipment and it all explodes.

248
00:18:54.720 --> 00:18:58.799
He seems to have 2 goes at it. because the effect hasn't gone off or something.

249
00:19:00.299 --> 00:19:03.839
Can we talk about things that go right in the production, though?

250
00:19:03.900 --> 00:19:06.059
And one of them, I think, is the music.

251
00:19:06.119 --> 00:19:07.259
Very good.

252
00:19:07.259 --> 00:19:13.019
The music, so this is someone who never works on the show, again. his name is Francis.

253
00:19:13.019 --> 00:19:13.859
Richard Martin?

254
00:19:13.920 --> 00:19:15.059
Sean.

255
00:19:15.119 --> 00:19:16.680
Oh, he worked.

256
00:19:17.880 --> 00:19:19.799
He got paid.

257
00:19:19.859 --> 00:19:22.740
Yeah, France's chagrin.

258
00:19:22.799 --> 00:19:23.700
Chagrin.

259
00:19:23.759 --> 00:19:25.859
I don't know, but it is that French word.

260
00:19:25.920 --> 00:19:28.440
He doesn't work on it again, and it is incredible.

261
00:19:28.500 --> 00:19:40.559
So the staff in episode 3 with the Daleks in Trafalgar Square and going along the embankment, which is all that sort of very weird, very experimental sort of percussion.

262
00:19:40.619 --> 00:19:44.400
There's some very weird piano stuff at the end at the climax.

263
00:19:44.460 --> 00:19:47.519
Like it's really... very avant-garde. great, isn't it?

264
00:19:47.579 --> 00:19:48.960
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

265
00:19:49.019 --> 00:19:55.740
But it's also just sort of terribly modern in the way that the theme music is as well. like the score for the invasion.

266
00:19:55.799 --> 00:19:59.039
Yeah, which is just atmospherics, which underline...

267
00:19:59.039 --> 00:20:00.119
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

268
00:20:00.180 --> 00:20:03.299
It certainly makes that tense, I think, and strange.

269
00:20:03.359 --> 00:20:14.640
You know, the whole purpose, I think, of that location footage and why it works so well is that it's familiar places with Daleks in them, which is something that we couldn't have imagined, I think, as little as 11 months ago.

270
00:20:14.700 --> 00:20:19.319
And it just serves to make those places even more strange and threatening.

271
00:20:19.380 --> 00:20:21.420
It really lifts the episodes at their in.

272
00:20:21.480 --> 00:20:24.059
The Dalek plunges are very, very long.

273
00:20:24.119 --> 00:20:27.240
They're great I love the extended dark.

274
00:20:27.359 --> 00:20:28.920
Yeah, well, they have to do Elon Musk.

275
00:20:29.759 --> 00:20:33.059
They were bragging about that in the bar on Friday.

276
00:20:33.839 --> 00:20:43.140
I think that's important, Nathan, because, like Simon said, a lot of location filming is shot without location sound, and so it relies on the music.

277
00:20:43.200 --> 00:20:51.180
And so it gives it a real sense of pace, those scenes where Barbara and Jenny are trying to escape London with Dortmund.

278
00:20:51.180 --> 00:20:54.779
And the music ramps up the tension, which otherwise isn't really there.

279
00:20:54.779 --> 00:21:02.039
Because again, going back to Richard Martin, he's handed this gift of going to central London, shoot the deserted streets.

280
00:21:02.099 --> 00:21:06.599
Dialects are invaded, it seems impossible you could muck that up, and yet occasionally I think he does.

281
00:21:06.660 --> 00:21:10.500
There are some great shots in there, but there's also some what?

282
00:21:10.559 --> 00:21:18.000
Shots like shooting around the Royal Albert Hall, which I think, unless you're a Londoner, is not immediately recognisable as a location.

283
00:21:18.119 --> 00:21:19.799
The scrap extension of cream Victoria, isn't it?

284
00:21:19.859 --> 00:21:22.200
Well, that's the Albert Memorial, yes, but.

285
00:21:22.259 --> 00:21:23.460
But on 405...

286
00:21:23.579 --> 00:21:24.779
You are a Londoner, though, aren't you?

287
00:21:24.839 --> 00:21:26.700
I don't, absolutely.

288
00:21:26.759 --> 00:21:29.279
Sorry, I said, oh, look, it's the Royal Arpent Hall.

289
00:21:29.339 --> 00:21:32.099
Well, I just think there was more opportunities there.

290
00:21:32.160 --> 00:21:33.480
Look at what Dougie does.

291
00:21:33.539 --> 00:21:34.559
Dougie goes, okay, St.

292
00:21:34.559 --> 00:21:35.339
Paul's Cathedral.

293
00:21:35.400 --> 00:21:37.559
Yeah, he chooses the really obvious.

294
00:21:37.619 --> 00:21:38.460
Yes, and where else?

295
00:21:38.519 --> 00:21:40.740
Well, there's that street that they walk around.

296
00:21:40.799 --> 00:21:41.400
Yes, exactly.

297
00:21:41.460 --> 00:21:42.779
My point is there's a pub.

298
00:21:42.839 --> 00:21:51.599
Yeah, but the point being, I think we've done a pretty good job getting Westminster Bridge, Trafalgar Square, and Whitehall, and I think that the Albert Memorial is probably pretty good as well.

299
00:21:51.660 --> 00:21:55.680
And even if we don't, okay, it's not outside Buckingham Palace, but that probably was too hard.

300
00:21:55.799 --> 00:21:57.240
And remember, they're not doing this with permission.

301
00:21:57.299 --> 00:21:58.920
They're just turning up at 5 AM.

302
00:21:58.980 --> 00:22:01.859
That's absolutely... they are shot as well.

303
00:22:01.920 --> 00:22:05.339
Like when they're walking down, I think it's the cenotaph towards Trafalgar Square.

304
00:22:05.400 --> 00:22:06.480
Whitehall.

305
00:22:06.539 --> 00:22:06.720
Yeah.

306
00:22:06.779 --> 00:22:07.859
There's no establishing shots.

307
00:22:07.980 --> 00:22:10.200
There's nothing to actually show you where you are.

308
00:22:10.259 --> 00:22:14.099
You're already watching them in the action and then work out a movement later where they are.

309
00:22:14.160 --> 00:22:15.240
I agree with you.

310
00:22:15.299 --> 00:22:18.000
It's not terrible, but I think more could have been done with this.

311
00:22:18.059 --> 00:22:24.420
And I think a director like Duggee would have really made those show stopping pieces, and I'm not sure that's exactly what you get.

312
00:22:24.480 --> 00:22:27.240
What the hell is Jenny wearing?

313
00:22:27.299 --> 00:22:31.019
She looks like snuggle, pot and cuddle pie, the gum nut.

314
00:22:31.859 --> 00:22:32.880
And I hate them.

315
00:22:32.940 --> 00:22:34.980
And I just and I just look at that.

316
00:22:35.039 --> 00:22:37.140
I just think, what were they thinking?

317
00:22:37.200 --> 00:22:38.700
So hate Jenny.

318
00:22:38.759 --> 00:22:42.359
Well, actually, no, I think she's a better actress than Carol Anne Ford.

319
00:22:42.420 --> 00:22:45.059
Well, yeah, low bar, low bar.

320
00:22:45.720 --> 00:22:47.400
You want to know why?

321
00:22:47.460 --> 00:22:48.000
Yes, please.

322
00:22:48.059 --> 00:23:00.299
It's because she naturally has darker hair and they wanted her to have blonde hair for the production so that she could be told apart on a 5 inch screen between Barbara and someone like that because, you know, all women look the same, obviously.

323
00:23:00.359 --> 00:23:09.660
So she had to get her hair dyed, but she hadn't had it dyed or bleached by the time the location work because that was done 1st and so they put a balaclava on her to hide it.

324
00:23:09.720 --> 00:23:13.200
It would have been improved if Barbara had also been...

325
00:23:13.200 --> 00:23:15.000
Yes.

326
00:23:15.000 --> 00:23:16.619
Then you wouldn't have told them apart.

327
00:23:16.680 --> 00:23:20.039
Scarf, you know, pulled out of her capacious pockets.

328
00:23:23.099 --> 00:23:29.700
Richard Martin is such an interesting case because I can see so much of what he's trying to do.

329
00:23:29.759 --> 00:23:32.400
So I was watching that 1st scene in the Tardis.

330
00:23:32.460 --> 00:23:35.579
It's the 1st scene in the studio of the entire show.

331
00:23:35.640 --> 00:23:37.799
And it's all shot in one frame.

332
00:23:37.859 --> 00:23:40.440
So you've got the console in front.

333
00:23:40.500 --> 00:23:47.339
You've got the scanner behind and you've got the camera in front looking at both of them at this strangely high angle.

334
00:23:47.400 --> 00:23:51.539
And the reason is he wants the doctor to be in the background wandering around.

335
00:23:51.599 --> 00:23:52.920
It's not framed for that shot.

336
00:23:52.980 --> 00:23:54.720
It's framed for where the shot will end up eventually.

337
00:23:54.779 --> 00:24:01.440
So all William Hartnell does is wander around in front of the console between that and the scanner with the camera just trained on him in wide shot.

338
00:24:01.500 --> 00:24:04.619
He then moves it out of shot camera right for 3 seconds.

339
00:24:04.680 --> 00:24:15.779
So there's nothing on screen before wandering back into shot, weirdly close to the camera and in close-up so that the other characters can then walk into shot, fill the space that he was in.

340
00:24:15.839 --> 00:24:17.880
And suddenly we have a fully composed shot.

341
00:24:18.000 --> 00:24:19.140
Mise en scene.

342
00:24:19.200 --> 00:24:20.759
It is mis-on-sen.

343
00:24:20.819 --> 00:24:25.259
It doesn't work because it's incredibly static and wrongly framed.

344
00:24:25.319 --> 00:24:30.839
Now this could be an analogue for most of Richard Martin's work, incredibly static and wrongly framed.

345
00:24:30.900 --> 00:24:33.660
But I can see what he was trying to do.

346
00:24:33.720 --> 00:24:38.700
He was trying to save time in the studio by doing it in one shot with people moving around in it.

347
00:24:38.700 --> 00:24:45.240
So he could get onto the stuff which was more time consuming and which might, God forbid, require a retake or something.

348
00:24:45.299 --> 00:24:46.859
But it doesn't work.

349
00:24:46.920 --> 00:24:49.079
He just doesn't place his camera correctly.

350
00:24:49.140 --> 00:25:01.619
It's an astounding admission, isn't it, that we have here a director who can't do a scene in the TARDIS where people walk around the console effectively, and that's a problem, I think.

351
00:25:01.680 --> 00:25:13.920
I think what he's trying to do is he's trying to make that shot interesting, and he knows that he can set the camera up actually in the right position, or what he's regarded as the right position before we start, because that's where everything starts, because the Robeman sequence is a film insert.

352
00:25:13.980 --> 00:25:17.099
And he wanted to do that thing where he doesn't cut between things.

353
00:25:17.160 --> 00:25:21.539
He didn't want it to be that kind of standard coverage of the Tartis console room.

354
00:25:21.599 --> 00:25:25.980
I agree that doesn't work, but yeah, I allowed him...

355
00:25:25.980 --> 00:25:27.480
Not my large criticism.

356
00:25:27.480 --> 00:25:28.859
No, absolutely not mine either.

357
00:25:28.920 --> 00:25:31.079
And we'll see you when he comes to the chase, for instance.

358
00:25:31.140 --> 00:25:32.460
He always has ideas.

359
00:25:32.519 --> 00:25:33.660
He's always brimming with ideas.

360
00:25:33.720 --> 00:25:38.099
Some of them don't come off and some of them are just like, okay, that's an idea, but why did you go with that?

361
00:25:38.160 --> 00:25:40.980
In the chase, he puts the camera in place of the console.

362
00:25:41.039 --> 00:25:44.819
So the doctor is leaning over the camera and pretending to pull leave us.

363
00:25:44.880 --> 00:25:49.319
So the door's open, which is a fascinating idea, but doesn't work in the action.

364
00:25:49.380 --> 00:25:50.819
You're thinking, what are you doing?

365
00:25:50.940 --> 00:25:52.019
Oh, I see what we're doing.

366
00:25:52.079 --> 00:25:53.220
So you're following...

367
00:25:53.279 --> 00:25:58.259
Yeah, you're following the director's choices rather than them being natural and feeling like they belong in the action.

368
00:25:58.319 --> 00:26:08.819
Having said that, I don't want to crucify Richard Martin too much because I think some parts of the story really do work, and these, I think, are the parts which play to his strengths.

369
00:26:08.880 --> 00:26:16.140
So going back to what I say, why is he the person who's in charge of these big action oriented stories when they are clearly not his wheelhouse?

370
00:26:16.200 --> 00:26:25.019
Imagine how different it would have been, Christopher Barry had been invited back to do the Dalek invasion of birth, and Dougie Canfield had been invited to do the web planets instead of the time meddler.

371
00:26:25.079 --> 00:26:27.960
Just imagine how differently those stories would exist.

372
00:26:28.019 --> 00:26:34.859
But when we get to episode five, I think it is, The Croones in the Wood, that sequence is magnificent.

373
00:26:34.920 --> 00:26:38.400
It's all set up, as Simon said, with Miz onsen.

374
00:26:38.460 --> 00:26:41.759
It done like a plea for today on a stage or corner of the studio.

375
00:26:41.819 --> 00:26:46.740
It's lit beautifully with the light from the storm coming in from outside.

376
00:26:46.799 --> 00:26:54.119
He gets these lovely close-ups on the 2 crones, which you don't often get in 60s talk 2, those intense close-ups.

377
00:26:54.180 --> 00:27:00.779
And the whole thing from beginning to end is a magic little sequence in the story that works perfectly.

378
00:27:00.839 --> 00:27:02.640
That's the kind of stuff he can do.

379
00:27:02.700 --> 00:27:04.920
Exactly, because it's standard drama.

380
00:27:04.980 --> 00:27:06.420
It just, it's not Doctor Who.

381
00:27:06.480 --> 00:27:07.380
It just, it's just normal.

382
00:27:07.440 --> 00:27:09.240
Remember, he does come from a theatre background.

383
00:27:09.299 --> 00:27:12.660
He's mainly a theatre director and that's his bread and butter.

384
00:27:12.779 --> 00:27:13.619
Interesting.

385
00:27:13.680 --> 00:27:20.279
I just want to observe something about that sequence and why we're talking about it, is it reminded me, this sounds ridiculous. of threads.

386
00:27:20.339 --> 00:27:22.500
Yes, Simon, yes.

387
00:27:22.559 --> 00:27:30.660
Right, because you've got this post-apocalyptic world and, I mean, you called them old crones, but there's supposed to be mother and daughter, the younger one.

388
00:27:30.660 --> 00:27:31.980
I'm basically thinking of Eileen Way.

389
00:27:32.039 --> 00:27:33.000
Yes, exactly.

390
00:27:33.059 --> 00:27:35.519
I'm surprised it wasn't Eileen Way. should have been...

391
00:27:35.579 --> 00:27:39.720
But the younger one is hurt, obviously her daughter, and she's a simpleton.

392
00:27:39.779 --> 00:27:41.099
She hasn't been properly educated.

393
00:27:41.160 --> 00:27:46.980
It's like, it's like, you know, the decay of civilisation, you know, we've fallen off the edge just like in the threads.

394
00:27:47.039 --> 00:27:48.000
No, absolutely agree.

395
00:27:48.059 --> 00:27:55.920
It's funny because when I watch that sequence, I just think of the movie sequence and I just think of Louise, isn't the movie sequence actually Eileen Way?

396
00:27:55.980 --> 00:27:57.720
It might be, actually.

397
00:27:57.779 --> 00:27:58.380
Yeah, exactly.

398
00:27:58.380 --> 00:28:01.200
So, I guess old woman for rent.

399
00:28:01.859 --> 00:28:09.660
And this is going back to what Simon said, because threads is a very effective, obviously, post-apocalyptic nightmare.

400
00:28:09.720 --> 00:28:13.980
Terry Nation, who I'm sure we'll talk more about, gets all of those ideas right.

401
00:28:14.039 --> 00:28:19.319
He says, we need a creepy moment in the woods with people who are cut off from civilisation.

402
00:28:19.380 --> 00:28:23.640
It feels like we've regressed to kind of mediaeval times or, you know, the Middle Ages.

403
00:28:23.700 --> 00:28:27.599
And so he hones in on that drama, and that is a perfect little vineyard.

404
00:28:27.660 --> 00:28:29.400
It's my favourite sequence from the story.

405
00:28:29.460 --> 00:28:32.759
Well, certainly my favourite seconds from that episode, but that's not difficult.

406
00:28:32.880 --> 00:28:33.660
Not the slither?

407
00:28:34.079 --> 00:28:38.880
Ah, Jesus.

408
00:28:38.880 --> 00:28:52.019
I, you know, I, I think that that, I was wondering, though, whether that was supposed to be a Roberman being caught, because you can imagine a Roberman going, ah. that kind of, you know, like that robotic kind of...

409
00:28:52.079 --> 00:28:53.640
They say, stop.

410
00:28:53.940 --> 00:28:56.880
But I had totally forgotten it.

411
00:28:57.000 --> 00:29:00.240
Like, I could not remember it from when I 1st watched it.

412
00:29:00.299 --> 00:29:01.619
I just think of the movie.

413
00:29:01.680 --> 00:29:02.700
Is it in the movie?

414
00:29:02.759 --> 00:29:03.900
No, in the movie.

415
00:29:03.900 --> 00:29:05.400
Alas, it didn't make the cut.

416
00:29:05.519 --> 00:29:09.960
Ashton gets killed by the Daleks, which is obviously what has to happen.

417
00:29:10.019 --> 00:29:10.740
Yes.

418
00:29:10.740 --> 00:29:13.380
You know, in a sort of competent thing.

419
00:29:13.440 --> 00:29:16.380
But Terry loves those monsters.

420
00:29:16.440 --> 00:29:23.759
We have the Maya Beasts, we have whatever the hell that octopus is in the Daleks, you know, we have...

421
00:29:23.819 --> 00:29:27.779
We have Varga plants, you know, like he loves that star.

422
00:29:28.259 --> 00:29:37.319
Sorry, just when I saw it in the background with its little tiny claw things, like, it's, it's, claw is perfectly formed.

423
00:29:37.319 --> 00:29:39.480
It's so bad.

424
00:29:39.539 --> 00:29:41.220
It's like a one of the dalek claws, right?

425
00:29:41.220 --> 00:29:44.759
Yeah, but they swap the sink plunge of the floor without the metal casing.

426
00:29:44.819 --> 00:29:46.200
Skeleton.

427
00:29:46.259 --> 00:29:47.640
Because in the movie...

428
00:29:47.640 --> 00:29:48.539
Is it Ashton?

429
00:29:48.539 --> 00:29:51.779
Gets exterminated by the dark...

430
00:29:51.900 --> 00:29:52.619
Yeah, wonderful.

431
00:29:52.680 --> 00:29:55.079
And I remember that sequence so vividly.

432
00:29:55.140 --> 00:29:59.099
But in this, like I thought, okay, so they're going to go into their little hut, blah, blah, blah.

433
00:29:59.160 --> 00:30:13.200
And then it sort of, it sort of attacks the side of our heart and he just gives up. submits to the death of this thing and then it's coming after them and they jump into that whatever that wine cart.

434
00:30:13.259 --> 00:30:17.460
And then there's this small gap between the card and that.

435
00:30:17.460 --> 00:30:19.859
And it just sort of just goes, boom.

436
00:30:19.920 --> 00:30:24.119
I just I just said there going, why how?

437
00:30:24.180 --> 00:30:26.160
I don't understand either.

438
00:30:26.220 --> 00:30:27.359
Because it looks so terrible.

439
00:30:27.539 --> 00:30:30.240
Or more likely they just missed the shots of it.

440
00:30:30.299 --> 00:30:32.279
You don't actually see it.

441
00:30:32.339 --> 00:30:36.779
And so you have to have Ian and his friend Larry there going, it looks like it's about to jump.

442
00:30:36.839 --> 00:30:38.099
It's jumped.

443
00:30:39.480 --> 00:30:41.579
Same today as always.

444
00:30:41.640 --> 00:30:43.079
Doesn't it go, ooh.

445
00:30:46.440 --> 00:30:48.119
Yes, actually, I made it.

446
00:30:48.119 --> 00:30:49.799
It's a wonderful little squeal.

447
00:30:51.240 --> 00:30:54.059
It honestly thought it could jump that far.

448
00:30:54.119 --> 00:30:56.460
That 6 inch distance.

449
00:30:56.519 --> 00:30:59.700
That little sound was digetic to the studio.

450
00:30:59.759 --> 00:31:02.339
It was, it was falling at a dead feet.

451
00:31:04.500 --> 00:31:09.180
Can I just observe, though, about the slither whilst now that we appear to be talking about it?

452
00:31:09.240 --> 00:31:17.160
is that it is actually, unlike those creatures that were mentioned in the Daleks and even the brains with eyes on sticks in the keys of marinos and so on like that.

453
00:31:17.220 --> 00:31:18.359
Dexterity.

454
00:31:18.359 --> 00:31:19.500
Dexterity, indeed.

455
00:31:19.559 --> 00:31:26.400
This is basically the last gasp of, or this is the formal end of the no bug eyed monsters rule.

456
00:31:26.460 --> 00:31:32.099
Because when you think about it, basically, that's what we've arrived in, and we'll probably talk about this molitarination and so on like that.

457
00:31:32.160 --> 00:31:34.259
Terry has won that argument over Sydney.

458
00:31:34.319 --> 00:31:34.980
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

459
00:31:35.039 --> 00:31:38.940
Well, just through, you know, force of personality, I guess.

460
00:31:39.000 --> 00:31:42.240
Well, no, just to issue determination to completely ignore it.

461
00:31:42.299 --> 00:31:44.940
I mean, he wants to put silly monsters into the show.

462
00:31:45.059 --> 00:31:52.019
Well, that's what he that's what he thinks it is because of the 3 page probably brief that he's been given, he may have read the 1st 2.5 paragraphs.

463
00:31:52.140 --> 00:32:08.039
There is also kind of the thing where if you're not going to have monsters in a story, this is the one to not have them in, because you've got the Daleks right there, you know, you don't have to build a whatever the hell you think you're building when you put the slipper.

464
00:32:08.099 --> 00:32:10.319
But there's also 2 substitutes for the daleks.

465
00:32:10.380 --> 00:32:12.299
And you know, this is the thing, the doctor will do.

466
00:32:12.299 --> 00:32:12.900
Alligators?

467
00:32:12.960 --> 00:32:15.119
The baby alligators.

468
00:32:15.180 --> 00:32:16.680
I mean, them as well.

469
00:32:16.740 --> 00:32:18.299
Was it an episode of Thunderbirds?

470
00:32:18.359 --> 00:32:19.380
I don't know.

471
00:32:19.380 --> 00:32:21.660
The best episode of...

472
00:32:21.660 --> 00:32:25.859
No, you've got the slither, who is like substitute for the Daleks being there, but you've also got the rope in me.

473
00:32:25.920 --> 00:32:29.940
Yeah, so the rope man of the delayed gratification of getting the Daleks at the end of episode one.

474
00:32:30.000 --> 00:32:34.980
But Doctor Who does that throughout its history, and I think it has a long and venerable tradition.

475
00:32:35.039 --> 00:32:36.059
So you look at earth shock.

476
00:32:36.119 --> 00:32:40.200
There's no reason for those 2 black androids in the 1st episode to not be Cyberman.

477
00:32:40.259 --> 00:32:40.799
Yeah, yeah.

478
00:32:40.859 --> 00:32:41.819
And Terry understands that.

479
00:32:41.880 --> 00:32:47.099
He understands that you need the punch of what people are expecting not just to introduce them in the 1st scene.

480
00:32:47.160 --> 00:32:48.839
No, I think in this case.

481
00:32:48.900 --> 00:32:52.440
The reason why the Androids are there in Earthshock is to delay the appearance of the cybermen.

482
00:32:52.500 --> 00:32:58.440
The Roman are there, not just to delay the appearance of the Daleks, but also to provide more evil characters, because we only have so many garlic props.

483
00:32:58.500 --> 00:33:00.240
Oh, absolutely, because Terry's an amazing writer.

484
00:33:00.299 --> 00:33:02.339
And so that's how, well, we'll come, perhaps come to that.

485
00:33:02.400 --> 00:33:06.720
But the slither, I think, is an example of a poor choice.

486
00:33:06.779 --> 00:33:09.180
It's like the creature in case of Andrewzani.

487
00:33:09.240 --> 00:33:13.380
The manga beast is in the case of an design, is inserted because of instruction from John Nathan Turner.

488
00:33:13.440 --> 00:33:14.099
We need a monster.

489
00:33:14.160 --> 00:33:22.500
Placement of the slither in the story suggests that it was a similar command from the producer saying, or the script editor to say, we need a monster, which is odd.

490
00:33:22.559 --> 00:33:23.579
I don't think they'd have asked that.

491
00:33:23.640 --> 00:33:24.960
So I don't know why he would have done this.

492
00:33:25.019 --> 00:33:28.079
He's just gotten, he's just realised, oh, it's episode five, we need something else now.

493
00:33:28.140 --> 00:33:29.400
Yeah, it's just Terry going.

494
00:33:29.460 --> 00:33:30.119
It's episode five.

495
00:33:30.180 --> 00:33:31.859
We need something to fill up the drama.

496
00:33:43.920 --> 00:33:55.619
Let's talk about Terry, and in particular, what he does with the dialects here, because this is the story that takes the daleks from being a one off, and it's the 1st time we do a sequel.

497
00:33:55.680 --> 00:34:00.059
It's just about the only sequel in the Heart Mill era. am I right?

498
00:34:00.119 --> 00:34:02.279
Shall I have the monk coming back if that counts?

499
00:34:02.339 --> 00:34:05.880
Well, yeah, you get the monk coming back and you get the dialects on their annual thing.

500
00:34:05.940 --> 00:34:07.619
But it's definitely our twice annual thing.

501
00:34:07.680 --> 00:34:08.460
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

502
00:34:08.519 --> 00:34:19.320
It's definitely our 1st sequel is Doctor Who, going to be the kind of thing that does that, given, you know, the premise, given that we turn up somewhere different at random every every month.

503
00:34:19.559 --> 00:34:28.800
What does he do to the daleks to make them a going concern outside of the context of that 1st story that they appear in?

504
00:34:28.860 --> 00:34:30.599
Well, he makes them less interesting.

505
00:34:30.659 --> 00:34:31.500
I would agree.

506
00:34:31.559 --> 00:34:34.559
Because in the Daleks, they've actually got a bit of depth to them.

507
00:34:34.619 --> 00:34:35.880
They are frightened.

508
00:34:35.940 --> 00:34:36.539
Yes.

509
00:34:36.539 --> 00:34:38.579
They are not refugees.

510
00:34:38.639 --> 00:34:43.739
They are hiding in their city, frightened of the outside world. paranoid.

511
00:34:43.800 --> 00:34:46.019
They are weak, right?

512
00:34:46.079 --> 00:34:49.139
They can only travel on the static electricity floors.

513
00:34:49.199 --> 00:34:50.099
They can't leave the city.

514
00:34:50.159 --> 00:34:55.739
They need to explode the bomb, not to destroy the files. that's a happy side effect.

515
00:34:55.800 --> 00:34:56.699
To survive.

516
00:34:56.699 --> 00:34:58.440
To survive because they can go outside.

517
00:34:58.500 --> 00:35:00.480
No, because they need another burst of radiation.

518
00:35:00.539 --> 00:35:06.480
Because the reason why they're getting sick is because they've adapted to radiation and the radiation on Scaro is fading from the nuclear war.

519
00:35:06.539 --> 00:35:07.320
So that's interesting.

520
00:35:07.380 --> 00:35:12.840
And also, they talk sort of like normal characters might.

521
00:35:12.900 --> 00:35:13.500
Yeah.

522
00:35:13.500 --> 00:35:20.820
I believe someone said, may have been verity, that the worst thing that happened to Terry Nation was that he heard the Dalek Speck.

523
00:35:20.880 --> 00:35:21.539
Right.

524
00:35:21.599 --> 00:35:36.480
Because suddenly in the Dalek invasion of Earth, Daleks speak much more slowly, they are much more robotic like that, whereas in various sequences in the Daleks, they speak at a bit of a slow pace, but still a relatively normal or more acceptable pace.

525
00:35:36.539 --> 00:35:39.659
The dialogue is also more simplified for the Daleks here.

526
00:35:39.719 --> 00:35:43.739
They become talking robots, even though there's supposed to be a mutant creature inside, they are just talking robots.

527
00:35:43.800 --> 00:35:46.199
It's not delivering to the audience what Terry wants.

528
00:35:46.260 --> 00:35:50.039
It's delivering what he thinks the audience's expectation of them is.

529
00:35:50.039 --> 00:35:51.659
Maybe that's what it is.

530
00:35:51.719 --> 00:35:55.860
Yes, I think so, but I also think it's because they've basically become what Sidney Newman was worried.

531
00:35:55.860 --> 00:35:57.900
They were going to be in the 1st place, which are bug eyed monsters.

532
00:35:57.960 --> 00:35:59.639
They are just killer robots.

533
00:35:59.699 --> 00:36:01.860
I just felt they weren't the Daleks.

534
00:36:01.920 --> 00:36:06.239
L. Like I sat there going, when did the Daleks become the Daleks that I know?

535
00:36:06.300 --> 00:36:11.159
And I know the Daleks from Death to the Daleks and Genesis of the Daleks contestiny, the dialects the most.

536
00:36:11.280 --> 00:36:13.500
When am I getting those daleks?

537
00:36:13.559 --> 00:36:17.340
And I sat through this going, waiting to hear them say exterminate, right?

538
00:36:17.400 --> 00:36:21.659
They say 5 and they say it 5 or 6 times in episode 6 only.

539
00:36:21.900 --> 00:36:23.280
Right?

540
00:36:23.340 --> 00:36:26.639
So up to that point I'm going, they could be anything, right?

541
00:36:26.699 --> 00:36:29.280
And when they have their pieces of dialogue with each other.

542
00:36:29.340 --> 00:36:32.340
Like, yes, terrible. absolutely awful.

543
00:36:32.400 --> 00:36:35.519
And I'm just there going, they are not what they were in the Daleks.

544
00:36:35.579 --> 00:36:40.019
And they're not what they are in the chase because in the chase, they've got time travel.

545
00:36:40.079 --> 00:36:41.340
They're after the doctor.

546
00:36:41.400 --> 00:36:45.179
It's more like the Daleks that we know are out to exterminate and get him.

547
00:36:45.239 --> 00:36:48.840
Whereas it's almost like they can do anything according to what the story demands of them.

548
00:36:48.900 --> 00:36:50.639
Well, that's true.

549
00:36:50.699 --> 00:36:53.400
But here, they don't even know the doctor, right?

550
00:36:53.460 --> 00:36:56.760
So I just was there going, they could be anything.

551
00:36:56.820 --> 00:36:57.960
There could be anything.

552
00:36:58.019 --> 00:36:58.800
They conquerors, though.

553
00:36:58.860 --> 00:36:59.880
They're now conquerors.

554
00:36:59.940 --> 00:37:04.199
And a species which goes off and invades other planets, whereas they are not that in the Daleks.

555
00:37:04.260 --> 00:37:12.360
And the problem is that to make them an ongoing concern and to make them an enemy of the doctor, you know, they're the 1st recurring enemy of the doctor.

556
00:37:12.420 --> 00:37:15.000
They have to change what underpins them.

557
00:37:15.059 --> 00:37:18.059
So no longer are they a Cold War analogy.

558
00:37:18.119 --> 00:37:19.199
They're now Nazis.

559
00:37:19.260 --> 00:37:22.739
They're Nazi storm troopers because you're in decimated London.

560
00:37:22.800 --> 00:37:24.059
Yeah, like occupied London.

561
00:37:24.239 --> 00:37:25.320
Yeah, absolutely.

562
00:37:25.380 --> 00:37:30.420
And so they have to, as Simon said, they have to ditch what made them interesting and become villains.

563
00:37:30.480 --> 00:37:35.820
They have to be talking about destruction and killing and death all the time because that's what makes a good monster.

564
00:37:36.059 --> 00:37:48.059
I think the big loss is the thing that you identified, and it's in the performances of the voice actors, and it's where the Daleks eventually land, which is that they are slightly hysterical.

565
00:37:48.119 --> 00:37:58.739
You know, when we hear the day of the Daleks Daleks, their voices are kind of wrong because it's like they've heard the Dalek invasion of Earth ones.

566
00:37:58.800 --> 00:38:00.119
The pitch is too low, isn't it?

567
00:38:00.179 --> 00:38:05.280
Yeah, but there's not that edge of hysteria, that edge of panic in their voices.

568
00:38:05.340 --> 00:38:06.000
Yes.

569
00:38:06.000 --> 00:38:08.099
And that's what we eventually land.

570
00:38:08.159 --> 00:38:11.639
And you start getting that in Genesis, actually, is where you start getting those, or possibly Death of the Daleks.

571
00:38:11.699 --> 00:38:13.380
When Michael wishes starts doing the voices.

572
00:38:13.440 --> 00:38:15.480
But I think that the Daleks properly land.

573
00:38:15.539 --> 00:38:21.780
The Daleks that Todd wants properly land in power of the Daleks, even though they're being sneaky.

574
00:38:21.840 --> 00:38:27.420
It's interesting because I think the Daleks we get in power of the Daleks are the throwback almost to the original stone.

575
00:38:27.420 --> 00:38:27.719
Oh, yeah.

576
00:38:27.719 --> 00:38:33.000
And I think I think it's the power of the Dalek Staleks that I want now and we just haven't had since, since then.

577
00:38:33.059 --> 00:38:35.280
That's right, and the power of the Daleks Daleks.

578
00:38:36.059 --> 00:38:46.380
The power Daleks. are absolutely a throwback to the originals and they have that conversational dialogue that David Whisker gives them.

579
00:38:46.440 --> 00:38:50.880
And so they say things to each other, and this comes back to the tempo you were talking about, Nathan.

580
00:38:50.940 --> 00:38:55.739
They say to each other things like, we are not yet ready to teach these humans the pelore of the dalek.

581
00:38:55.860 --> 00:38:57.420
Yes, and with the rising inflection.

582
00:38:57.420 --> 00:39:02.940
Yeah, it's also the recognition of the doctor.

583
00:39:03.000 --> 00:39:07.260
I mean, the doctor becomes the doctor when the Daleks recognise the power of the Daleks.

584
00:39:07.320 --> 00:39:08.880
They don't recognise him here.

585
00:39:08.940 --> 00:39:14.039
And he isn't quite there yet either, I think.

586
00:39:14.099 --> 00:39:23.760
And Terry Nation has a big claim to uh, to responsibility for what the doctor ends up being like.

587
00:39:23.820 --> 00:39:30.059
But he gets Barbara and Ian to be like that, actually, sort of really rather than the doctor.

588
00:39:30.119 --> 00:39:33.480
So when the doctor gives his big speech to the Daleks in episode two.

589
00:39:33.539 --> 00:39:41.519
And it's, you know, an iconic moment where he gets to kind of make fun of them, but he's kind of talking nonsense and none of it really makes sense.

590
00:39:41.579 --> 00:39:47.099
You know, that baffling line about having to destroy all living matter and stuff.

591
00:39:47.159 --> 00:39:48.840
It's like I don't...

592
00:39:48.840 --> 00:39:50.099
I don't think that was quite in the screen.

593
00:39:50.400 --> 00:39:52.500
I have something to say about that.

594
00:39:52.559 --> 00:39:52.920
Yeah.

595
00:39:52.980 --> 00:40:06.300
But, but there's the wonderful bits in the end, like in episode sort of 5 and 6 where Ian is playing with the wires inside the capsule and stuff where he's improvising with bits of water.

596
00:40:06.360 --> 00:40:07.679
Well he's a science teacher.

597
00:40:07.739 --> 00:40:10.679
But that's also what the doctor ends up doing.

598
00:40:10.739 --> 00:40:12.360
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

599
00:40:12.420 --> 00:40:14.099
And having him sort of slightly panicky.

600
00:40:14.159 --> 00:40:19.860
You know, like he's surrounded by Daleks and he's in that little thing and all of that is really fun.

601
00:40:19.980 --> 00:40:29.460
And then you've got Barbara, not only giving the Roberman orders that can't be countermanded, but also her bluffing that she does.

602
00:40:29.519 --> 00:40:32.639
Yes, yes, which she fluffs the line, but it doesn't matter.

603
00:40:32.699 --> 00:40:34.260
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

604
00:40:34.320 --> 00:40:36.599
She just keeps going, but that's super doctor-ish as well.

605
00:40:36.659 --> 00:40:43.260
In fact, you know, that's what Rose does in the Christmas invasion when the doctor's gone and she's trying to be the doctor.

606
00:40:43.320 --> 00:40:47.519
His makeup a whole heap of stuff out of things that she knows in order to bluff.

607
00:40:47.579 --> 00:40:50.699
So let's go through Barbara's pockets to find out what's there.

608
00:40:51.179 --> 00:40:58.260
So that sort of thing, that's how we want our heroes and ultimately the doctor to behave.

609
00:40:58.320 --> 00:41:04.800
That's how he defeats the villains, and we have it happening here, but it's not quite located in the doctor yet.

610
00:41:04.920 --> 00:41:13.199
That line that you mentioned about living matter, I think that's part of this story's preoccupation with the atom bomb and nuclear destruction.

611
00:41:13.260 --> 00:41:24.840
I think that's a remnant of that because later on the doctor says they dare to tamper with the forces of creation, which is all clearly informed by that kind of Cold War phobia of what's going to happen.

612
00:41:24.900 --> 00:41:27.960
And of course, this is only 5 years removed from on the beach.

613
00:41:28.019 --> 00:41:28.980
Yeah, yeah.

614
00:41:28.980 --> 00:41:33.840
And Terry must have seen that film and drawn inspiration from that for the Daleks.

615
00:41:33.900 --> 00:41:39.059
And going back to what we were saying about the Daleks in that iteration of their, in their 1st story.

616
00:41:39.119 --> 00:41:48.960
It's so sad that you actually had a little bit of sympathy for the Daleks in that story, which has now completely vanished because they've gone from wanting to survive to wanting to conquer.

617
00:41:49.019 --> 00:41:51.719
They've gone from wanting to exist, to wanting to kill.

618
00:41:51.780 --> 00:41:56.579
And so everything that made them special and interesting has kind of been stripped back.

619
00:41:56.639 --> 00:42:01.079
And what you're left with is the incredible design and the incredible voice.

620
00:42:01.139 --> 00:42:04.679
That is what is now iconic about the Daleks rather than the idea behind them.

621
00:42:04.739 --> 00:42:17.340
And to go back to what we were saying about the location filming, taking them out of that city removes a lot of what made them interesting and special. putting them on location dwarfed by buildings and things like that.

622
00:42:17.400 --> 00:42:20.340
All you've got to hang onto is that iconic design.

623
00:42:20.400 --> 00:42:34.079
I think, though, that those scenes are great, you know, and Terry is right, I think, to set it in London, where most of the audience are or much of the audience is, because...

624
00:42:34.139 --> 00:42:34.800
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

625
00:42:34.860 --> 00:42:36.900
And it's, it's, yeah.

626
00:42:37.260 --> 00:42:39.059
But it's also kind of shocking.

627
00:42:39.119 --> 00:42:42.119
Like that, you know, it's not the planet Zog.

628
00:42:42.239 --> 00:42:49.199
Yes, it is Earth. and the Daleks have invaded Earth, and this is where the show takes a turn and never looks back.

629
00:42:49.260 --> 00:42:59.340
And a lot of the stories we have after this are just basically waiting to be made and shown until we get to what Doctor Who really is about, which is stuff like this.

630
00:42:59.400 --> 00:43:05.219
As you say, the Dalek's more interesting, the 1st story, because there's something about them, which you might find sympathy for, right?

631
00:43:05.280 --> 00:43:06.119
Their predicament.

632
00:43:06.179 --> 00:43:09.360
And remember, they didn't want the bug eyed monsters.

633
00:43:09.420 --> 00:43:11.400
They wanted it to be much more high concept.

634
00:43:11.400 --> 00:43:17.579
So all of the science fiction-y stories are all nothing like we have now, the Sensorites.

635
00:43:17.639 --> 00:43:19.860
You would never have anything remotely like that now.

636
00:43:19.920 --> 00:43:23.880
You would never have anything like the space museum.

637
00:43:23.940 --> 00:43:26.400
You would never have anything like the web planet, unfortunately.

638
00:43:26.460 --> 00:43:33.420
And then you have, obviously, the historical sort of dotted through, which are all supposed to be sort of, you know, factual and educational and so on like that.

639
00:43:33.480 --> 00:43:46.500
With Dalek Invasion of Earth, and you get it a little bit with Keys of Mariners, but you get it properly from Dalek Invasion of Earth, you get the idea of the alien invasion, the alien menace, whether it's threatening Earth or another colony somewhere else, it's the same principle.

640
00:43:46.559 --> 00:43:50.460
And therefore, you have a story of good versus bad.

641
00:43:50.519 --> 00:43:51.719
There's no shades of grey.

642
00:43:51.780 --> 00:43:53.519
You just, you're with us or you're against us.

643
00:43:53.579 --> 00:44:01.079
And as we move through to the rest of the heart and ear and get into the trout in the era, that's when you start to get from like the war machines on, that's where you start to get that pattern.

644
00:44:01.139 --> 00:44:06.780
It's that speech of Troughton about things that the universe is bred, you know.

645
00:44:06.840 --> 00:44:07.739
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

646
00:44:07.800 --> 00:44:10.079
But that is, we're heading towards that.

647
00:44:10.139 --> 00:44:16.019
And also, and we did get it a little bit with Planet of Giants because they decide that they need to do something about this insecticide.

648
00:44:16.079 --> 00:44:21.780
But in Dialect Conversions of Earth, you get the doctor actually saying, it's time we put out our witch together and defeat.

649
00:44:21.900 --> 00:44:25.079
Yes, in that very speech when the Daleks say, oh, you know, we're in charge of the earth.

650
00:44:25.139 --> 00:44:26.219
Doctors goes, not for long.

651
00:44:26.280 --> 00:44:26.820
Yes.

652
00:44:26.880 --> 00:44:34.019
Now that, again, and I know that the TARDIS is covered with fallen bridge and so on, but nevertheless, we've now moved Styrofoam to me.

653
00:44:34.320 --> 00:44:36.539
Fallen Styrofoam.

654
00:44:36.599 --> 00:44:37.260
Perhaps I have.

655
00:44:37.260 --> 00:44:38.099
There's some balsa wood.

656
00:44:38.159 --> 00:44:39.480
Exactly.

657
00:44:39.539 --> 00:44:41.760
There's a plank that's carried.

658
00:44:41.820 --> 00:44:47.159
But the point is that we've moved to a thing where the TARDIS arrives somewhere and makes the world a better place.

659
00:44:47.219 --> 00:44:51.360
And that's what carries the show then forward for the next 60 years.

660
00:44:51.420 --> 00:44:52.619
But we're not quite there.

661
00:44:53.280 --> 00:44:55.559
No we're not quite there yet, but this becomes the template.

662
00:44:55.679 --> 00:44:59.159
Even if you've still got a lot of other stuff between now.

663
00:44:59.219 --> 00:45:00.480
Galaxy four, for instance.

664
00:45:00.539 --> 00:45:01.679
You'd never make Galaxy 4 now.

665
00:45:01.739 --> 00:45:02.219
You know what I mean?

666
00:45:02.280 --> 00:45:08.039
This is, of course, a hugely influential and consequential story going forward for many reasons.

667
00:45:08.099 --> 00:45:16.260
The location work that we talked about, the fact that it's the 1st returning monster, all of those factors, but what it is incredible for is what Simon said.

668
00:45:16.320 --> 00:45:24.659
This is Terry Nation, looking at the show's format and adding adventure to it, the sense rights is, I love the sense rights on many levels.

669
00:45:24.719 --> 00:45:25.739
It's not about adventure.

670
00:45:25.800 --> 00:45:27.119
It's a cerebral story.

671
00:45:27.179 --> 00:45:38.099
So there is a huge argument to be made, that terry nation creates the modern Doctor Who story in the Daleks, and then refines it here to be the archetypal Doctor Who story, which is the Aean invasion.

672
00:45:38.159 --> 00:45:53.400
And I think, too, that there's the kind of the linearity of the plot as well that it is all about splitting us up into 3 groups and having those 3 groups all go to Bedfordshire and then meet up again.

673
00:45:53.460 --> 00:45:54.239
At the Wooden Hill.

674
00:45:54.300 --> 00:45:55.860
Do you know what I mean?

675
00:45:55.920 --> 00:45:57.840
And then and then we resolve the thing.

676
00:45:57.960 --> 00:46:01.320
And we don't have to be particularly clever to resolve the thing or anything.

677
00:46:01.380 --> 00:46:07.199
Can I also say there's something about the structure of the story and we'll, I mean, we're probably starting to talk about Terry Nation as a writer now as well.

678
00:46:07.260 --> 00:46:32.699
But the other thing is that the structure of the story is what, 20th century doctor who becomes, because it's changed now because of the single episode format, but back in the day, whether it was 4 or 6 episodes or thereabouts, you often had the initial setup, an initial, some kind of attack or getting into where the, where the alien menace is and doing stuff, failing, retreating, coming together again, and then being split up and so on, and then going back and destroying them for a 2nd time.

679
00:46:32.760 --> 00:46:35.460
And that's how you create the arc that makes a 4 or 6 part story.

680
00:46:35.519 --> 00:46:45.960
But one important thing that good classic Doctor Who does is a point in the story where we realise that things are not quite what they seem and they're actually somewhat worse.

681
00:46:46.019 --> 00:46:47.579
That never comes here.

682
00:46:47.639 --> 00:46:49.260
We have...

683
00:46:49.320 --> 00:46:49.619
No, no.

684
00:46:49.679 --> 00:46:53.099
That's something I think is developed more as we pet into the 70s.

685
00:46:53.579 --> 00:46:55.079
It's shame matures further.

686
00:46:55.139 --> 00:47:00.719
It's not something that Terry does, despite the somewhere on this planet, there are $10,000.

687
00:47:01.260 --> 00:47:02.940
That's not quite what you have. by that name.

688
00:47:03.000 --> 00:47:05.099
He never really, really quite...

689
00:47:05.159 --> 00:47:07.380
On the contrary, we were told there are very few daleks.

690
00:47:07.380 --> 00:47:09.360
Just about six.

691
00:47:09.420 --> 00:47:16.619
Oh, no, they have some cardboard ones at a helicopter.

692
00:47:18.659 --> 00:47:25.260
I think that where Terry's genius comes in with Doctor Who is that he plunders the right material.

693
00:47:25.260 --> 00:47:29.340
What he's looking at is things like Day of the Triffords. stuff like that.

694
00:47:29.400 --> 00:47:33.480
And he shamelessly takes stuff like that and sees that the documentary format will work well with this stuff.

695
00:47:33.539 --> 00:47:34.679
So is that written before?

696
00:47:34.739 --> 00:47:35.760
Yeah, 1951.

697
00:47:35.880 --> 00:47:36.420
That's 50s.

698
00:47:36.480 --> 00:47:37.079
I've got it.

699
00:47:37.139 --> 00:47:40.199
Yeah, it's much earlier than you think, despite, you know, Joe Sellers backstory.

700
00:47:40.260 --> 00:47:42.360
Even things like War of the World.

701
00:47:42.420 --> 00:47:43.980
Yeah, going back to HG Wells.

702
00:47:44.099 --> 00:47:46.559
What he understands is the power of spectacle.

703
00:47:46.619 --> 00:47:47.579
Yeah.

704
00:47:47.579 --> 00:47:50.400
And he introduces spectacle to Doctor Who.

705
00:47:50.460 --> 00:47:55.019
And, you know, they do try it again later on, like I think Web Planet, in its own way, is trying for sceptical.

706
00:47:55.079 --> 00:48:05.940
But the reason that the Dalek Invasion Earth, these episodes live on in the public consciousness and did for like decades afterwards is not how good the story is or how well it was produced.

707
00:48:06.000 --> 00:48:15.239
It's the power of that imagery of the Daleks in Central London and a broken down London with people on the streets scurrying away.

708
00:48:15.360 --> 00:48:16.500
I think that's so important.

709
00:48:16.559 --> 00:48:18.960
Like as classic Doctor Who fans.

710
00:48:19.019 --> 00:48:27.059
We have a tendency to think that spectacle is meretricious because Doctor Who tends to do it badly because it can't really afford it.

711
00:48:27.119 --> 00:48:34.679
But of course, the thing that everyone remembers the moments of spectacle, the giant maggots and stuff like that.

712
00:48:34.739 --> 00:48:35.820
If I can push back on that.

713
00:48:35.880 --> 00:48:38.940
It's not spectacles, we might understand it in the 21st century sense with the show.

714
00:48:39.000 --> 00:48:43.260
It's spectacle in terms of powerful images, which is not really spectacle in the same way.

715
00:48:43.320 --> 00:48:46.079
It's a very powerful image.

716
00:48:46.139 --> 00:48:46.980
Yes, exactly.

717
00:48:47.039 --> 00:48:48.179
It's Sutech.

718
00:48:48.239 --> 00:48:49.679
It's the mummies, it's whatever, you know.

719
00:48:49.679 --> 00:48:55.679
But I think it's also things like that shot of Nord, Vandal of the Roads heading off and the big planet and things in the background.

720
00:48:55.739 --> 00:48:59.039
You know, the images that you see nowhere else.

721
00:48:59.099 --> 00:49:02.760
And I think, you know, it's television and visions right in the word.

722
00:49:02.820 --> 00:49:06.119
Yes, but it's the end of episode one of the Daleks.

723
00:49:06.179 --> 00:49:08.280
Yeah, yeah, it's that that's different.

724
00:49:08.340 --> 00:49:09.719
So what I'm saying?

725
00:49:09.780 --> 00:49:10.440
not big budget.

726
00:49:10.500 --> 00:49:12.719
It's just beautifully, beautifully been forced.

727
00:49:12.780 --> 00:49:19.980
I don't think it has to be a big budget and they're clearly attempting it in episode 6 with their series of stock footage of, you know, mud falling into rivers and stuff.

728
00:49:20.039 --> 00:49:21.960
Yes. to kind of achieve the...

729
00:49:21.960 --> 00:49:23.159
I think some of that's supposed to be volcanic.

730
00:49:23.219 --> 00:49:25.019
It's difficult to celebrate away.

731
00:49:25.079 --> 00:49:28.860
I'm very surprised we didn't get those stock shots from info.

732
00:49:28.920 --> 00:49:30.360
Yeah, same ones.

733
00:49:30.360 --> 00:49:31.500
Maybe that hadn't happened yet.

734
00:49:31.559 --> 00:49:38.039
I thought they were very similar, but it's interesting what you were talking about here because as I was watching this, I was going, how are the Daleks?

735
00:49:38.099 --> 00:49:40.980
How did they become this cultural icon when I'm looking at this?

736
00:49:41.039 --> 00:49:41.760
Yeah, yeah.

737
00:49:41.760 --> 00:49:58.260
And the only thing that I am latching onto is the imagery from coming out of the water, from being around London, not by being the Daleks themselves, because they are, can I just say it, pretty crap through most of this and going back to episode six, the exterminator exterminator is only in that episode.

738
00:49:58.380 --> 00:50:05.039
So to me, I was just there saying, when did the Daleks become the dialects, why are they suddenly a cultural phenomenon at this point?

739
00:50:05.099 --> 00:50:08.340
Because, like, why would kids be going around saying exterminates, terminate?

740
00:50:08.400 --> 00:50:10.019
Because they don't say it much in the Daleks either?

741
00:50:10.079 --> 00:50:12.059
Okay, so when's the 1st film out?

742
00:50:12.119 --> 00:50:15.119
The 1st film is not released until after the chase.

743
00:50:15.239 --> 00:50:16.739
Oh, gosh, LA.

744
00:50:16.800 --> 00:50:18.480
Yes, August 65.

745
00:50:18.659 --> 00:50:19.440
Right, right.

746
00:50:19.500 --> 00:50:22.860
Because I was going to say that I think they become a success before the film.

747
00:50:22.980 --> 00:50:26.039
I was going to say it's boosted by the film, which obviously it is.

748
00:50:26.099 --> 00:50:28.079
Well, there's only a film because they're already a success.

749
00:50:28.139 --> 00:50:30.659
Yeah, I know. and obviously things take time in production and so on like that.

750
00:50:30.719 --> 00:50:37.380
But I thought my memory for some reason thought that, well, memory, we weren't alive, but I thought that it came out sometime between Darlic Invasion of Earth and the Jazz.

751
00:50:37.440 --> 00:50:39.719
Phil might have boosted the ratings for, I don't know, Galaxy 4.

752
00:50:39.900 --> 00:50:40.679
For example.

753
00:50:41.159 --> 00:50:46.500
But the Dalek props in the original story are better than the Dalek crops here.

754
00:50:46.559 --> 00:50:48.960
And they are shot much better by Christopher Barry.

755
00:50:49.019 --> 00:50:53.699
Which helps, but they are definitely more Now I don't know, did they lose them slash destroy them after the 1st story or?

756
00:50:54.179 --> 00:50:55.559
So what happened was they kept two?

757
00:50:55.619 --> 00:51:02.219
They donated 2 to Dr. Bernardo's and then had to borrow them back. presumably refurbished them.

758
00:51:02.280 --> 00:51:06.960
And then they created 2 new ones and then they put them up on those big sort of to hide the three.

759
00:51:06.960 --> 00:51:07.980
According to the rubbery wheels.

760
00:51:08.039 --> 00:51:09.179
Doctor Who Technical manually.

761
00:51:09.239 --> 00:51:09.780
Sorry, call that.

762
00:51:09.840 --> 00:51:17.760
Yeah, so like, so this is December 64, The chase is made June 65 and the movie, the 1st movie is August 65, right?

763
00:51:17.820 --> 00:51:18.360
Okay.

764
00:51:18.420 --> 00:51:21.059
But anyway, it is the imagery, it's the iconography.

765
00:51:21.119 --> 00:51:21.719
You're right.

766
00:51:21.780 --> 00:51:24.179
But remember, this is a small screen.

767
00:51:24.239 --> 00:51:26.159
You know, I don't know how big it's 11 inches.

768
00:51:26.219 --> 00:51:29.340
Yeah, yeah, tiny screens. imperfect reception.

769
00:51:29.400 --> 00:51:30.480
You're seeing these things.

770
00:51:30.539 --> 00:51:33.719
You've got the radio times cover there with a dalek on it.

771
00:51:33.780 --> 00:51:36.840
You've already got Daleks and comics and stuff by now, do you?

772
00:51:36.900 --> 00:51:43.320
So it's sort of that thing that it feeds on itself thanks to all that and, you know, if they're Daleks on the back of cereal packets and so on like that.

773
00:51:43.380 --> 00:51:47.099
In some respects, all that stuff is more important than them actually being on television.

774
00:51:47.159 --> 00:51:48.360
Well, yeah, interestingly.

775
00:51:48.420 --> 00:51:50.639
Only on television for a few weeks a year.

776
00:51:50.699 --> 00:51:55.260
Yeah, it's almost like it exists just to keep the public interest up rather than being the source of it.

777
00:51:55.320 --> 00:51:55.800
Yes.

778
00:51:55.800 --> 00:52:04.800
And if you're going to remember an episode, You're probably going to remember the dialogue more from the last episode than the previous ones and they're saying exterminate in the last episode, but not in the previous five.

779
00:52:04.860 --> 00:52:11.099
It goes back to what I was saying, that the power of the dialect, such as it is right now, is in their incredible design.

780
00:52:11.159 --> 00:52:12.179
It's in this story.

781
00:52:12.239 --> 00:52:15.480
It's not about how they're placed in the frames, not about the way they're shot.

782
00:52:15.539 --> 00:52:18.840
It's not about the way that on that small screen you're talking about, people are watching.

783
00:52:18.900 --> 00:52:21.719
They're a little bit lost sometimes in that location for you.

784
00:52:21.780 --> 00:52:23.760
Oh, and I was also going to say on the small screen.

785
00:52:23.820 --> 00:52:25.199
Are there other people in the room?

786
00:52:25.260 --> 00:52:27.000
Is granny over talking to your mother?

787
00:52:27.059 --> 00:52:29.579
Yeah, you're not able to actually hear it properly.

788
00:52:29.639 --> 00:52:31.139
Mum dishing up your baked beans.

789
00:52:31.199 --> 00:52:31.739
Exactly.

790
00:52:31.800 --> 00:52:35.340
Or the clanking of cutlery in... saying, shut up. recording it.

791
00:52:35.519 --> 00:52:36.960
Yes.

792
00:52:37.019 --> 00:52:40.679
But I think you would have said it more forcefully than that.

793
00:52:40.739 --> 00:52:42.900
He would have taken that mallet.

794
00:52:43.440 --> 00:52:50.699
But therein, again, lies the genius of Terry because if you just had the imagery, that would be one thing.

795
00:52:50.760 --> 00:52:53.880
But what he does is marry it to high stakes peril.

796
00:52:53.940 --> 00:53:00.780
And so beforehand, and I think very few times since, has the doctor and his companions ever been in such a desperate situation?

797
00:53:01.500 --> 00:53:03.119
Yeah, probably.

798
00:53:03.179 --> 00:53:05.519
Well, the whole world is the world has been taken over.

799
00:53:05.579 --> 00:53:06.599
Yes.

800
00:53:06.599 --> 00:53:07.619
They've arrived after the fact.

801
00:53:07.679 --> 00:53:08.579
Yes.

802
00:53:15.239 --> 00:53:21.539
On Terry, I don't know whether it's a revisionist thing that was sort of regarding him as a great writer, and obviously he's a great writer.

803
00:53:21.599 --> 00:53:23.039
You know, he created the Daleks.

804
00:53:23.099 --> 00:53:24.539
He's written so much television.

805
00:53:24.599 --> 00:53:26.699
He wrote bounty, for instance.

806
00:53:26.760 --> 00:53:27.539
I mean yeah.

807
00:53:28.800 --> 00:53:31.380
I'm not saying he's not capable of good work.

808
00:53:31.440 --> 00:53:32.579
I think he is capable of work.

809
00:53:32.639 --> 00:53:44.820
I think if I can sort of describe him as a workman-like writer, it's people who regard whether they regard writing as an art or a craft and he is a craftsman, not an artist.

810
00:53:44.880 --> 00:53:49.980
The artists will produce far less stuff, which might be much better, but it'll be less frequent.

811
00:53:50.039 --> 00:54:00.239
And hearing you say that right now, it makes me wonder if there wasn't method to verities madness in that she married the craftsman writer to the self-styled artist director to see what would happen.

812
00:54:00.360 --> 00:54:01.679
Possibly.

813
00:54:01.739 --> 00:54:03.599
I think maybe that's a stretch too far.

814
00:54:03.659 --> 00:54:04.619
We don't really know.

815
00:54:04.679 --> 00:54:11.099
But what Terry does is he does take traditional, standard ways of storytelling.

816
00:54:11.159 --> 00:54:14.280
He never needs to try to do something which is unusual or different.

817
00:54:14.340 --> 00:54:22.139
He needs to get the story from A to B, to C, and he uses fairly standard tropes for a better word or cliches even to get you there.

818
00:54:22.199 --> 00:54:27.179
And that can often work so well because what you get is you get a proper sense of balanced story.

819
00:54:27.239 --> 00:54:27.780
Absolutely.

820
00:54:27.780 --> 00:54:31.380
Now, this story sags, episode 4 is completely unnecessary.

821
00:54:31.440 --> 00:54:34.860
Production also seems to fall further apart.

822
00:54:34.860 --> 00:54:35.639
For further apart.

823
00:54:35.699 --> 00:54:38.699
I mean, that's bafflingly bad, isn't it?

824
00:54:38.760 --> 00:54:40.380
We don't have Bill that week.

825
00:54:40.440 --> 00:54:43.440
And so we're going to leave him behind and then go back for him.

826
00:54:43.500 --> 00:54:44.460
So what are we doing?

827
00:54:44.519 --> 00:54:46.320
You know, like it just makes sense.

828
00:54:46.380 --> 00:54:48.119
Are they just leaving you under a bush for the allegations?

829
00:54:48.179 --> 00:54:53.039
They're just little things like Susan spraying her ankle in that initial sequence when the...

830
00:54:53.039 --> 00:54:56.039
The only time apart from Susan again, the five doctors.

831
00:54:56.099 --> 00:54:56.940
Yeah.

832
00:54:57.000 --> 00:55:02.880
But the point is, you know, that needs to happen so that Barbara can go down to the river so that, you know, it splits them up.

833
00:55:02.940 --> 00:55:10.440
It's just a method of getting you from A to B. and he doesn't he doesn't sit there in front of his typewriter agonising about, oh, what's the best way of doing?

834
00:55:10.500 --> 00:55:12.539
He just says, oh, she can just sprain her ankle and we'll move on.

835
00:55:12.599 --> 00:55:13.860
Now, that's not a criticism.

836
00:55:13.920 --> 00:55:14.699
It doesn't muck about.

837
00:55:14.760 --> 00:55:16.320
Yeah, it's not a criticism.

838
00:55:16.380 --> 00:55:17.159
It's an observation.

839
00:55:17.219 --> 00:55:22.619
And that's why I think he, that's why he was a successful television writer because he was able to keep churning them out.

840
00:55:22.739 --> 00:55:28.679
But that's why he is able to develop Doctor Who's format because it is clear and followable.

841
00:55:28.739 --> 00:55:29.880
His stories.

842
00:55:29.940 --> 00:55:31.380
I said this to Simon.

843
00:55:31.380 --> 00:55:32.099
They're unpretentious.

844
00:55:32.159 --> 00:55:33.719
They are definitely unpretentious.

845
00:55:33.780 --> 00:55:37.139
And if you look at the Hartnell science fiction stories.

846
00:55:37.199 --> 00:55:42.659
There is a strong argument from you that Terry is the only successful writer of Heartnell science fiction.

847
00:55:42.719 --> 00:55:45.960
There are other good, interesting ideas that don't quite work.

848
00:55:46.019 --> 00:55:50.940
It's the Terry Nation stories that people remember from the 1960s as Doctor Who's sci-fi.

849
00:55:51.000 --> 00:56:03.059
But that's because they're the Doctor Who stories that we can now more easily recognise in the modern day, and in certainly what the shape becomes in the 70s and 80s, whereas the other science fiction stories, as I was saying earlier, are completely different to what we...

850
00:56:03.179 --> 00:56:04.920
Strange little cul-de-sacs, like the sound.

851
00:56:04.980 --> 00:56:13.500
Yeah, and in fact, speaking about Richard Martin, I do wonder whether if he was directing something like the Censor rights or the Space Museum, that might have been a good vehicle for his talents to have that kind of thing.

852
00:56:13.800 --> 00:56:16.079
They're not brilliantly directed either, though.

853
00:56:16.139 --> 00:56:16.980
No, they're not.

854
00:56:17.039 --> 00:56:28.679
And so maybe he might have improved on because I just think the way that he approached Doctor Who would have worked for kind of a small scale, interesting, slightly left field idea, like space museum rather than this big action adventure.

855
00:56:29.099 --> 00:56:41.760
The other thing, just by way of ending talking about Terry, is that we have been dulled over the decades since to just how imaginative the leaps he took were.

856
00:56:41.820 --> 00:56:49.619
So when they come to him and say, we want to have the Daleks back, he doesn't say, okay, I'll formulate a return to Scaro to see what's happening as well.

857
00:56:49.679 --> 00:56:51.360
He says, okay, we'll bring them back.

858
00:56:51.420 --> 00:56:52.739
We're going to go even bigger.

859
00:56:52.800 --> 00:56:54.239
They're going to invade the earth.

860
00:56:54.300 --> 00:56:58.260
Okay, does he or does verity say, and or David Whittaker say, that's what we want?

861
00:56:58.320 --> 00:57:01.860
I think maybe it's Terry because that feels like exactly the kind of thing he would do.

862
00:57:01.920 --> 00:57:20.519
Certainly, it ends up playing into his strengths and he will go on to create an entire series based on the premise here in Survivors, where he investigates what happens when human society falls to pieces and they're only middle class white people left.

863
00:57:20.760 --> 00:57:27.239
So it would be a weird coincidence if it had been verity introducing him to that idea.

864
00:57:27.300 --> 00:57:32.219
It does sound more like something that's bubbling away, something that he's interested in.

865
00:57:32.280 --> 00:57:32.639
Absolutely.

866
00:57:32.699 --> 00:57:40.739
And it's actually a little bit gobsmacking to think that within most people's living memory watching this, the blitz would have been a thing.

867
00:57:40.800 --> 00:57:44.340
And he goes right there in a children's series and presents on screen.

868
00:57:44.460 --> 00:57:47.219
What looks like something that happened 20 years ago?

869
00:57:47.340 --> 00:57:49.500
That the children, the children will still be wet.

870
00:57:49.619 --> 00:57:55.679
There are still large swathes of bomb sites in the 60s in London in vacant areas thanks to the bombings.

871
00:57:55.739 --> 00:58:00.059
Well, I mean, they shoot in sort of abandoned crumbling warehouses and things like that.

872
00:58:00.119 --> 00:58:08.099
Yeah, that was a national, that was a trauma from the national psyche, you know, the blitz and the V1 and V2s blowing up huge chunks of London when they fell.

873
00:58:08.159 --> 00:58:09.719
In a sense too.

874
00:58:09.780 --> 00:58:14.460
I think that that's why that 2nd film fails.

875
00:58:14.519 --> 00:58:16.019
Like it doesn't...

876
00:58:16.079 --> 00:58:18.659
Well, it doesn't fail artistically, but it fails commercially.

877
00:58:18.719 --> 00:58:19.980
They don't do a 3rd film.

878
00:58:20.039 --> 00:58:22.320
It doesn't do as well as anyone kind of expected.

879
00:58:22.380 --> 00:58:25.079
And I think it is because it seems old.

880
00:58:25.139 --> 00:58:32.219
It's dealing with obsessions from an earlier era, and it's not really consonant with the public mood.

881
00:58:32.280 --> 00:58:38.340
We no longer feel like we're emerging from rationing in World War 2 and anything like that.

882
00:58:38.400 --> 00:58:41.760
You know, England is a bit more exciting and a bit more forward looking.

883
00:58:41.820 --> 00:58:45.300
I think it's just more to do with the fact that, and I don't think it fails commercially.

884
00:58:45.360 --> 00:58:47.400
I just think it doesn't it isn't the spectacular success.

885
00:58:47.460 --> 00:58:49.559
It certainly doesn't do as well as they expected it.

886
00:58:49.920 --> 00:58:50.820
We hope, whatever.

887
00:58:50.880 --> 00:58:52.920
And also, I think it's just generally things have moved on.

888
00:58:53.039 --> 00:58:53.940
I think you've still got issues.

889
00:58:54.000 --> 00:58:57.480
I mean, because Gary Russell says that, you know, there are bombs, sites still in the 70s.

890
00:58:57.539 --> 00:58:58.860
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

891
00:58:58.920 --> 00:59:00.119
But that's not how they feel about themselves.

892
00:59:00.179 --> 00:59:01.019
No, not anymore.

893
00:59:01.079 --> 00:59:02.400
It's a swing 60s.

894
00:59:02.460 --> 00:59:03.119
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

895
00:59:03.179 --> 00:59:05.099
But you can still have the alien invasion stories.

896
00:59:05.159 --> 00:59:05.940
Sure, sure.

897
00:59:06.000 --> 00:59:08.099
But then for everything that that film gets right.

898
00:59:08.219 --> 00:59:09.360
And it does get quite a lot right.

899
00:59:09.420 --> 00:59:13.980
It's not as imaginative as these TV episodes in postulating a future.

900
00:59:14.039 --> 00:59:21.239
So these episodes look a bit blitzy and like 1940s London, but no one is really dressed that way.

901
00:59:21.300 --> 00:59:26.639
They're just dressed drably, whereas in the film, they look like they're dressed in the 1960s.

902
00:59:26.699 --> 00:59:32.340
They look like they were dressed at the time when the film is filmed rather than at the time it's meant to be set.

903
00:59:32.400 --> 00:59:35.880
But I think that's okay because, I mean, that's and that's what...

904
00:59:35.880 --> 00:59:39.420
It may have been an effort to place... we generally do do that.

905
00:59:39.480 --> 00:59:41.519
It's either that space tuning.

906
00:59:41.579 --> 00:59:43.619
Yeah, yeah, exactly. to the space tunic.

907
00:59:43.679 --> 00:59:49.320
We do have moving pavements or moving sideways or something in London, apparently.

908
00:59:49.380 --> 00:59:51.179
I hate to break it to you.

909
00:59:51.239 --> 00:59:54.960
I think what they're wearing in Dalek Invasion of Earth is actually what people are wearing in 1964.

910
00:59:55.619 --> 00:59:56.099
I agree.

911
00:59:56.159 --> 00:59:57.599
There's no dirty doubles to rags.

912
00:59:57.659 --> 01:00:16.199
It's dirty up into rags, but by the time you get to a couple of years later with the making of the 2nd film, Fashion has advanced and there's a sense of fashion, whereas in fact, I think running out of the mine at the end is a woman in a fur coat and a sort of... in the film. horribly malnourished post-war English people, don't they?

913
01:00:16.260 --> 01:00:19.679
I was shocked. was just shocked in this one to have all those topless men.

914
01:00:19.920 --> 01:00:22.199
Yeah, none of them who you wanted.

915
01:00:22.320 --> 01:00:25.800
No, no, it's always the wrong ones, but I was like, 0 gosh.

916
01:00:25.860 --> 01:00:27.900
It's always Roy Evans.

917
01:00:28.079 --> 01:00:31.920
And also quite a diversity of extras in terms of ages as well.

918
01:00:31.980 --> 01:00:35.940
But then, again, going back to Richard Martin occasionally gets it right.

919
01:00:36.000 --> 01:00:44.940
That incredible shot of those 2 Roberman, standing really tall and erect on top of that mining cart that's heading into the underground.

920
01:00:45.000 --> 01:00:47.639
I think it's a very arresting image occasionally gets right.

921
01:00:47.760 --> 01:00:49.260
That location is great too.

922
01:00:49.320 --> 01:00:51.719
Like that that mine shaft location.

923
01:00:51.780 --> 01:00:55.019
You know, that the train tracks and things coming out of is really, really something.

924
01:00:55.079 --> 01:00:57.239
It is just a work in quarry, isn't it?

925
01:00:57.300 --> 01:00:59.820
But it's the right time you need something like that.

926
01:00:59.880 --> 01:01:03.599
And then, of course, then you get them observing all of the volcanic explosion.

927
01:01:03.659 --> 01:01:05.760
Which is hilarious.

928
01:01:05.820 --> 01:01:09.659
I think you haven't even get an atomic cloud. bit of footage at the end of it.

929
01:01:09.719 --> 01:01:13.860
It actually makes me a little bit sad that Terry was never given a proper unit story to rice.

930
01:01:13.920 --> 01:01:18.780
I think he would have been very good at a unit, 70s alien invasion story.

931
01:01:18.840 --> 01:01:22.019
It would have pushed all of his buttons and it would have turned out something really interesting.

932
01:01:22.079 --> 01:01:23.639
I know we get the Android invasion.

933
01:01:23.699 --> 01:01:24.239
It's not quite there.

934
01:01:30.300 --> 01:01:34.440
The one thing we haven't talked about yet is the departure of Susan.

935
01:01:34.500 --> 01:01:34.980
Yeah.

936
01:01:35.039 --> 01:01:39.539
And I think that's a really important thing in the development of Doctor Who.

937
01:01:39.599 --> 01:01:44.460
William Hartnell is utterly superb in that entire sequence at the end.

938
01:01:44.519 --> 01:01:45.780
It's amazing, isn't it?

939
01:01:45.840 --> 01:01:47.820
Because it's been excerpted so often.

940
01:01:47.880 --> 01:01:48.480
We've seen it.

941
01:01:48.539 --> 01:01:52.320
We've kind of enured to it, but seeing it in context, he's great in it.

942
01:01:52.380 --> 01:01:55.679
You know, he's so superb in episodes one and two.

943
01:01:55.739 --> 01:02:09.239
Then he has his unfortunate fall or whatever, 34, and he gets back on track in five, but you can see Jacqueline Hill willing him to get the dialogue out when he enters the dalek control room and he's stumbling in.

944
01:02:09.300 --> 01:02:11.460
You can see it in her eyes going, yes, you could do it, Bill.

945
01:02:11.519 --> 01:02:13.079
Like, you know, she's...

946
01:02:13.139 --> 01:02:15.840
Wait, you know, so, doctor, what you mean?

947
01:02:15.960 --> 01:02:18.179
Oh, look, Dr. Demblo.

948
01:02:18.239 --> 01:02:23.639
But just the dialogue that Terry has given all David Whittaker.

949
01:02:23.699 --> 01:02:24.840
David Whitaker wrote that last time.

950
01:02:24.900 --> 01:02:30.900
But just the dialogue, obviously ceding the whole romance thing throughout and building it, right?

951
01:02:30.960 --> 01:02:33.659
It's not just right at the end, right?

952
01:02:33.719 --> 01:02:35.699
And you can see it happening, which is great.

953
01:02:35.760 --> 01:02:45.300
Not just delightful in those scenes where they are sitting at, like when David and Susan are sitting around the fire roasting the rabbit and he comes and he says, oh, yes, I could see that something was cooking.

954
01:02:45.360 --> 01:02:46.380
It's a fish.

955
01:02:49.320 --> 01:02:58.380
But all of that stuff outside the Tartars with her before he goes in and then that entire sequence, he's just incredible.

956
01:02:58.440 --> 01:03:01.739
And he's the thing that keeps that really going.

957
01:03:01.800 --> 01:03:05.880
You may have different opinions like of Susan and David.

958
01:03:05.940 --> 01:03:09.000
And I actually think the guy playing David, whose name I cannot remember.

959
01:03:09.059 --> 01:03:12.780
I actually think does a really good job of selling that bromance.

960
01:03:12.900 --> 01:03:18.000
It's a shame that we see the back of his head in so many shots towards the end there, right?

961
01:03:18.059 --> 01:03:21.900
And I'm there going direction, direction, but we've discussed direction.

962
01:03:21.960 --> 01:03:23.699
I was going there too.

963
01:03:23.760 --> 01:03:30.300
My biggest problem is the development of Susan slash Carol Anne Ford's acting.

964
01:03:30.300 --> 01:03:40.019
Because like for one whole year, she's been a 15, 16 year old, and now in this one story, it's suddenly like she gets to be her age, like 21, 22, right?

965
01:03:40.079 --> 01:03:42.539
And suddenly you don't see that before this.

966
01:03:42.659 --> 01:03:45.900
There's also then Susan herself.

967
01:03:45.960 --> 01:03:49.920
Like one minute she's hysterical at tripping over and hurting her ankle.

968
01:03:49.980 --> 01:03:58.860
Then it's like she's taken something to nullify her hysteria so she can say to Barbara, oh, yes, go off and get some more water because it's also nice. found some Xanax in the ruins.

969
01:03:58.920 --> 01:04:09.000
Then the next moment, like Barbara says something like, oh, yes, put on the robo helmet and you'll be able to attack them and everybody goes, oh, yes, as if they've never thought of that.

970
01:04:09.059 --> 01:04:11.159
And they're all quite muted.

971
01:04:11.219 --> 01:04:14.880
And then Susan does this when 7 out of 10 reaction is fine.

972
01:04:14.940 --> 01:04:21.300
She does a 14 out of 10 on Barbara, as if to say, you are the god of all ideas, right?

973
01:04:21.360 --> 01:04:28.559
And so there's this swing between being totally over the top at reactions and then totally the opposite.

974
01:04:28.619 --> 01:04:32.940
And then you've got Caroline Ford looking mysteriously at the camera like she does.

975
01:04:33.000 --> 01:04:35.159
I like to go home in the dark, you know, in the forest.

976
01:04:35.219 --> 01:04:39.059
Like she's some Eastern European model that's, you know, modelling something.

977
01:04:39.119 --> 01:04:40.380
Maybe she was.

978
01:04:40.440 --> 01:04:41.280
Maybe she was.

979
01:04:41.340 --> 01:04:44.099
But just throughout the entire thing, I'm just there going, oh, my goodness.

980
01:04:44.159 --> 01:04:51.599
And like then the baby crocodile sequence where she's having hysteria again and then attacking the robamen like, I mean, I just struggled.

981
01:04:51.659 --> 01:04:52.679
Like, I could see the writing.

982
01:04:52.739 --> 01:05:03.119
I like this sassy version of Susan when Jenny turns around or Craddick or Tyler, whoever it is, one of them turns around and says, and what do you do?

983
01:05:03.179 --> 01:05:04.199
And she says, I eat.

984
01:05:04.260 --> 01:05:04.800
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

985
01:05:04.800 --> 01:05:05.579
That's amazing.

986
01:05:05.639 --> 01:05:07.800
I love that grown-up version of Susan.

987
01:05:07.860 --> 01:05:08.460
Yes.

988
01:05:08.519 --> 01:05:11.639
So it's it's so like one way over the place.

989
01:05:11.699 --> 01:05:13.739
Over the place, if they didn't know what they were doing.

990
01:05:13.800 --> 01:05:16.380
And it's obviously she doesn't know what she's doing, right?

991
01:05:16.440 --> 01:05:18.360
I hate I hate criticising that.

992
01:05:18.420 --> 01:05:19.920
Are you listening, Carol?

993
01:05:19.980 --> 01:05:21.719
I'm just going to say this.

994
01:05:21.780 --> 01:05:25.139
I think, you know, Maureen O'Brien comes in and it's just so much better.

995
01:05:25.199 --> 01:05:28.679
Well, she gives a more consistent performance through what you're saying.

996
01:05:28.739 --> 01:05:30.719
Yeah, there is something resembling a character.

997
01:05:30.840 --> 01:05:48.719
But even in those last sequences, like with David, like they're trying to focus on her and she's trying to give what they want, but I still think like that tension in the last bit where is she going to take David's hand or is she going to say, and I fully expect to say, oh, I've made a terrible mistake. tracked on this planet and it's just a disaster.

998
01:05:48.780 --> 01:05:51.179
We're going to be farmers for Christ's sake.

999
01:05:51.900 --> 01:06:01.739
You know, it's such a pivotal moment in the history of the show to lose the 1st companion and have them depart and to see that play out.

1000
01:06:01.800 --> 01:06:09.000
But also, I think it's great that it is actually seated throughout the episode and it's not just one of these last 10 minute jobs.

1001
01:06:09.059 --> 01:06:11.400
Yeah, I think it is kind of well done.

1002
01:06:11.460 --> 01:06:35.340
And I mean, it is a problem that they never kind of land Susan's character properly, and it's possible that making her the doctor's granddaughter is partly to blame for that as well, because when Maureen O'Brien comes along, and the doctor's just so keen to impress her and he really likes her and he's not protective of her in quite the same way.

1003
01:06:35.400 --> 01:06:41.099
You know, like he wants to, he wants her to have fun and he wants to show her adventures and stuff like that.

1004
01:06:41.159 --> 01:06:45.780
Whereas he wants to kind of keep Susan under his wing a little bit.

1005
01:06:45.840 --> 01:06:52.860
And this is infamously, obviously, where he says that she's in need of a jolly good smacked bottom.

1006
01:06:52.920 --> 01:06:57.539
Like, it was always just maybe a slightly better.

1007
01:06:57.599 --> 01:07:00.179
I think he thinks she's in need of something else that's jolly good.

1008
01:07:00.239 --> 01:07:01.860
Yes, exactly.

1009
01:07:01.920 --> 01:07:03.420
It's time for her to become a woman.

1010
01:07:03.480 --> 01:07:05.760
Well, that's that wonderful moment, isn't it?

1011
01:07:05.820 --> 01:07:10.139
Where he kind of knows what's going on and he's not jealous and he actually plays along.

1012
01:07:10.199 --> 01:07:21.480
There's a bit where he's off somewhere and the doctor and Susan are having an argument about what to do next and she wants to do what David has suggested and the doctor doesn't want to do that because he's in charge.

1013
01:07:21.539 --> 01:07:23.039
But then when he sees it.

1014
01:07:23.159 --> 01:07:24.360
He's all grumbly.

1015
01:07:24.420 --> 01:07:24.960
Yeah, yeah.

1016
01:07:25.019 --> 01:07:29.699
But then he sees what's going on and he decides to suggest the thing that David was going to do.

1017
01:07:29.760 --> 01:07:32.159
And Caroline is very good in that scene.

1018
01:07:32.219 --> 01:07:33.840
Yeah, that's a good scene.

1019
01:07:33.900 --> 01:07:39.659
I think that sets that up because it is, you know, finally going to be a decision between David and her.

1020
01:07:39.719 --> 01:07:42.780
I think the mistake is not giving her any agency there.

1021
01:07:42.840 --> 01:07:45.480
It would have been better if she had been able to make that decision.

1022
01:07:45.599 --> 01:07:52.019
And, you know, there's that sort of kind of unfortunate thing about how the companions have to go off and get married.

1023
01:07:52.079 --> 01:07:53.099
Do you know what I mean?

1024
01:07:53.219 --> 01:07:53.940
Because she's a woman.

1025
01:07:54.000 --> 01:07:54.960
What else is she going to do?

1026
01:07:55.019 --> 01:07:55.440
You know?

1027
01:07:55.500 --> 01:07:59.400
But I think that's I think that's a leftover thing of the times like, yeah, for sure.

1028
01:07:59.400 --> 01:08:02.940
Yes, we can still have her being a relationship, but they still have to get married.

1029
01:08:03.000 --> 01:08:04.800
Like there's that caveat at the end.

1030
01:08:04.860 --> 01:08:07.920
We're not at the end of the 60s where they could just go off together and live together.

1031
01:08:07.980 --> 01:08:08.639
Do you know what I mean?

1032
01:08:08.699 --> 01:08:09.119
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1033
01:08:09.179 --> 01:08:10.199
She is a very good cook, apparently.

1034
01:08:10.920 --> 01:08:11.519
It's that.

1035
01:08:11.820 --> 01:08:13.380
She eats.

1036
01:08:13.500 --> 01:08:15.059
No, in the campsite.

1037
01:08:15.119 --> 01:08:15.960
Yeah, yeah.

1038
01:08:16.020 --> 01:08:17.220
The doctor says she's a very good cook.

1039
01:08:17.279 --> 01:08:18.060
David will call to David.

1040
01:08:18.119 --> 01:08:18.600
She eats.

1041
01:08:18.720 --> 01:08:25.020
It's almost as if the very good cook line is they're repairing the IE line in order to make her a suitable line.

1042
01:08:25.020 --> 01:08:27.479
We made her...

1043
01:08:27.539 --> 01:08:35.220
The floor the floor with Susan is that, yes, as you say, they make it the doctor's granddaughter and they were going to make her an alien and that's how she was going to be.

1044
01:08:35.279 --> 01:08:37.859
She was going to have telepathy and all this kind of stuff which they explore.

1045
01:08:37.979 --> 01:08:42.720
All never happened, really. a little bit of a darker angstier character, which they can't land.

1046
01:08:42.779 --> 01:08:47.579
Whereas when they introduce Vicky, she's bright and bubbly and so she brings it to us.

1047
01:08:47.640 --> 01:08:56.399
No, what I was going to say was, but the problem is that for the stories, they need someone to get into trouble and to sprain their ankle and so on and so on.

1048
01:08:56.460 --> 01:09:01.619
And so that's that's completely at odds with this idea of her being a sophisticated...

1049
01:09:01.680 --> 01:09:03.420
By episode 2 of the show.

1050
01:09:03.479 --> 01:09:05.039
She's having a panicky meltdown.

1051
01:09:05.039 --> 01:09:05.939
Yes, yes, exactly.

1052
01:09:05.939 --> 01:09:07.020
She can't see the doctor.

1053
01:09:07.079 --> 01:09:07.619
Yeah, exactly.

1054
01:09:07.680 --> 01:09:17.819
Because so the 3 paragraph character outline, whatever it is, is already is basically thrown away, and then every now and again someone finds a sentence of us and drops it in something.

1055
01:09:17.880 --> 01:09:18.600
Yes, exactly.

1056
01:09:18.659 --> 01:09:26.100
Don't you think that this story as a whole could have benefitted from Sydney Newman watching it with a resigned look and turning around saying, do it again, Richard.

1057
01:09:26.159 --> 01:09:27.539
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

1058
01:09:27.600 --> 01:09:29.039
It could have. thing should have been shot twice.

1059
01:09:29.100 --> 01:09:29.760
Absolutely.

1060
01:09:29.819 --> 01:09:31.619
Well, probably more than twice.

1061
01:09:31.739 --> 01:09:34.920
Fortunately, since then it has been.

1062
01:09:35.279 --> 01:09:36.659
Exactly.

1063
01:09:57.899 --> 01:10:01.079
Well, that's all the time we have for this week.

1064
01:10:01.079 --> 01:10:06.479
We'll be back next week for the second appearance of Doctor Who's second 11 in the moon base.

1065
01:10:06.539 --> 01:10:24.539
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts, and you can keep up with us on our website, 500yeardiary.com, where you'll find our social media links, as well as links to all of our other podcasts, including our other Doctor Who podcasts, flight through entirety, and the 2nd great and bountiful human empire.

1066
01:10:24.960 --> 01:10:34.079
Until next time, remember that there's nothing better than hitting your fascist overlords with rocks and then blowing them up in a massive volcanic explosion.

1067
01:10:34.140 --> 01:10:36.720
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

1068
01:10:36.779 --> 01:10:37.800
Good night.

1069
01:10:37.859 --> 01:10:38.460
Bye bye.

1070
01:10:38.520 --> 01:10:39.659
See you soon.

1071
01:10:49.319 --> 01:10:55.439
That was 500-year diary, starring Todd Bealby, Nathan Bottomley, Peter Griffiths and Simon Moore.

1072
01:10:55.560 --> 01:10:58.020
The theme was composed by Cameron Lamb.

1073
01:10:58.079 --> 01:11:04.500
This episode, Daleks Daleks, was recorded on the 16th of March, 2025, and released on the 27th of April.

1074
01:11:04.560 --> 01:11:20.699
If you've enjoyed hearing us, discuss a Doctor Who story over 60 years old and you want to hear what we think about the last few weeks, head on over to our Doctor Who flashcast at the 2nd great and bountifulhumanempire.com, or if you're pressed for time, just greatandbountiful.com.

1075
01:11:36.060 --> 01:11:42.840
There is absolutely a reason that this is one of two heart and all stories that are novelized in the 1970s.

1076
01:11:42.899 --> 01:11:50.520
Um, the power of its imagery and where it sits in the public consciousness, in fan consciousness.

1077
01:11:50.579 --> 01:11:52.680
Very important fans, lives on.

1078
01:11:52.739 --> 01:12:08.039
And the novelisation of this book starts with maybe the most famous opening line of any target novelisation, which is through the ruin of the city, stalked the ruin of a man, and that is Terence Dix delivering his best based on what Terry has given him.

1079
01:12:08.100 --> 01:12:10.260
That's Terry's best, that opening shot.

1080
01:12:10.319 --> 01:12:18.000
I think this story is all about the potency of its images and you just can't take that away no matter what its problems are.

1081
01:12:18.060 --> 01:12:31.319
I think part of the reason it's one of the 2 Partnel stories novelized in the 70s is because of the film, but also what we haven't really talked about as on the potency of the image is that opening sequence which is utterly horrific, really.

1082
01:12:31.380 --> 01:12:34.979
A man a man drowns himself in the Thames.

1083
01:12:35.039 --> 01:12:37.859
And there's a poster behind where they're just forbidden to gumble.

1084
01:12:38.579 --> 01:12:41.100
That is, in fact, the most sinister thing in the entire story, that poster.

1085
01:12:41.159 --> 01:12:42.000
Yeah, yeah.

1086
01:12:42.060 --> 01:12:46.319
And that poster, they're not put up by the Daleks saying, that's put up at the time of the plague.

1087
01:12:46.380 --> 01:12:47.579
Yes, before the invasion.

1088
01:12:47.640 --> 01:12:47.880
Exactly.

1089
01:12:48.239 --> 01:12:50.399
Trop that in somewhere earlier.

1090
01:12:50.460 --> 01:12:51.600
Because then none your thing.

1091
01:12:52.020 --> 01:12:55.020
So I just wanted to say that.

1092
01:12:55.020 --> 01:12:56.640
So the other one's kids of Marinas, I assume.

1093
01:12:56.699 --> 01:12:59.279
No, the kids match 1980, the other one's the 10th planet.

1094
01:12:59.340 --> 01:13:00.659
Of course.

1095
01:13:00.720 --> 01:13:03.659
Yes, yes, yes, yes. you've only got the original three.

1096
01:13:03.720 --> 01:13:06.779
And then you've got those...

1097
01:13:06.779 --> 01:13:08.100
Like the 2 headline stories.

1098
01:13:08.100 --> 01:13:17.880
Because all the ones that are in the early 70s, the next batch, that 1st batch with the Pertwe logo on them, they're Pertweis, but they're also Pat stories, the season 5 there, but...

1099
01:13:17.880 --> 01:13:20.220
That's right. don't start getting half the cyberman.

1100
01:13:20.279 --> 01:13:21.119
The Cyberman.

1101
01:13:21.180 --> 01:13:21.840
Yeah, that's right.

1102
01:13:21.899 --> 01:13:25.619
You get Keys Marinus, which is a weird kind of, you know, why did they choose King?

1103
01:13:25.680 --> 01:13:26.460
I think great because...

1104
01:13:26.579 --> 01:13:32.220
No, it is a great choice, but it's weird from a marketing angle that they would choose that over something like the chase.

1105
01:13:32.340 --> 01:13:36.720
Well, maybe I think looking at the script of the chase, you'd think, how do we normalise that and make it interesting because basically nothing happens.

1106
01:13:36.779 --> 01:13:39.239
I mean, it could also have been coming from...

1107
01:13:39.239 --> 01:13:41.039
Well, but I mean, Darlic Invasion of Earth does that.

1108
01:13:41.100 --> 01:13:42.479
To be fair, it's the same thing.

1109
01:13:42.539 --> 01:13:43.920
So there's keys of marinus.

1110
01:13:43.979 --> 01:13:45.479
It's just we go from a thing to a thing.

1111
01:13:45.539 --> 01:13:48.479
We get in our travel dials and go to the next episode.

1112
01:13:48.600 --> 01:13:57.239
I think so much of this is coming from Terrence because Terrence was the unofficial kind of editor of the range choosing, you know, what would be done and who would do it.

1113
01:13:57.300 --> 01:14:07.859
I think he's been in the viewing room, watching clips, including Dalek Invasion of Earth, for the lively arts documentary, and he's gone, okay, we'll do this next. 6 months later out it comes.

1114
01:14:09.119 --> 01:14:12.060
Yeah, I mean, I don't know.

1115
01:14:13.560 --> 01:14:18.060
Yeah, we're going to talk about Russell, but I just don't think we will, I think.

1116
01:14:18.720 --> 01:14:27.539
You know, he steals the Dalek invasion of earth and the ridiculous premise of Dalek invasion of earth for stolen earth.

1117
01:14:27.600 --> 01:14:35.159
The reason the earth is stolen is so that the Daleks can drive around in it, you know, through his face or whatever.

1118
01:14:35.220 --> 01:14:36.119
Yeah.

1119
01:14:36.119 --> 01:14:39.479
Well, I could imagine in the context of Dark Invasion, but this is not the only planet they're doing.

1120
01:14:39.539 --> 01:14:43.199
But he does, like, he does actually, like, a doctor.

1121
01:14:43.260 --> 01:14:46.140
Yeah, it's a fairly loving...

1122
01:14:46.199 --> 01:14:48.060
Yeah, fairly loving homage to their space.

1123
01:14:48.119 --> 01:14:49.020
There's much to talk about.

1124
01:14:49.079 --> 01:14:49.560
No, no.

1125
01:14:49.619 --> 01:14:52.199
It's got the males, the females, the descendants.

1126
01:14:52.260 --> 01:14:53.100
Oh, is that right?

1127
01:14:53.100 --> 01:14:54.600
Yes, he uses that.

1128
01:14:54.659 --> 01:15:04.619
But also, like the 1st companion departure in New Who is someone who is left behind to rebuild the earth after the Daleks are destroyed and destroyed.

1129
01:15:04.680 --> 01:15:08.880
No, no, in stolen in...

1130
01:15:08.939 --> 01:15:10.979
No, no, no, no. when Jack leaves.

1131
01:15:11.039 --> 01:15:19.319
Like, they leave Jack behind, and then there's a line about he's going to be busy rebuilding the earth because the earth has been destroyed.

1132
01:15:19.380 --> 01:15:21.000
Like we watch the Daleks destroy the earth.

1133
01:15:21.779 --> 01:15:23.460
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1134
01:15:23.520 --> 01:15:33.720
And we watch them, you know, like it's 200 years in the future in, in the, in the, it's, you know, 200 centuries in the future in Russell's 1st season.

1135
01:15:33.840 --> 01:15:41.939
I think this is where Russell in those 1st couple of years pays homage to Classic Who and puts little things like that in.

1136
01:15:42.000 --> 01:15:47.760
So that it means nothing to new people, but if we hear it, oh wow, that's a little nugget.

1137
01:15:47.819 --> 01:15:55.560
But remember what Russell does is he introduces the dialects in series one, the sidemen in series two, the master in series three, Dan Ross in series four.

1138
01:15:55.619 --> 01:15:57.239
He's introducing all the 10th goal.

1139
01:15:58.199 --> 01:15:59.760
Oh, this on Taran's in series 4 as well.

1140
01:15:59.819 --> 01:16:00.659
Orton?

1141
01:16:00.659 --> 01:16:03.359
But like he's doing that.

1142
01:16:03.420 --> 01:16:10.560
He's introducing those big tent pole things so that young people have that as part of their experience of Doctor Who just as we did.

1143
01:16:10.619 --> 01:16:16.260
And so the 1st Dalek story is a dalek trapped panicking in a building that it's unable to leave.

1144
01:16:16.500 --> 01:16:24.539
And then we have the Daleks coming in force as a giant spectacle and destroying the earth, you know.

1145
01:16:24.600 --> 01:16:28.500
But in some respects, that's because that's playing with just different aspects of the Daleks.

1146
01:16:28.560 --> 01:16:30.659
I mean, that's just also it's Dalek.

1147
01:16:30.720 --> 01:16:33.600
I mean, I haven't heard the audio, but Dalek is a pre-existing story.

1148
01:16:34.260 --> 01:16:36.840
It's not very much like Jubilee.

1149
01:16:36.899 --> 01:16:37.380
Okay, right.

1150
01:16:37.439 --> 01:16:40.380
Bass plays a solo Dalek being tortured.

1151
01:16:40.439 --> 01:16:41.340
That's it, right.

1152
01:16:41.399 --> 01:16:41.579
Okay.

1153
01:16:41.640 --> 01:16:43.800
But the point being that Martin Jarvis.

1154
01:16:43.859 --> 01:16:45.479
Yeah, awesome. really good.

1155
01:16:46.859 --> 01:16:56.699
But the, but the, it's, it's, I don't, I, I, I don't think it is a literal, I don't think it's a deliberate reflection of those 1st 2 Dalek stories.

1156
01:16:56.760 --> 01:17:04.619
I think it's just the fact that you have a standalone Dalek story early in the season or midseason, and then you have the climax, which is going to be kind of a space invasion type thing.

1157
01:17:04.739 --> 01:17:07.800
I think opening the scale up, though, is doing that.

1158
01:17:07.859 --> 01:17:08.939
And I think that's a deliberate choice.

1159
01:17:09.000 --> 01:17:10.560
Yeah, I think, well, I think it's, yes.

1160
01:17:10.619 --> 01:17:14.819
But it's also just doing both sides of what you can do with Dalek, I think.

1161
01:17:14.880 --> 01:17:18.840
The claustrophobic versus the the the big invader kind of thing.

1162
01:17:18.899 --> 01:17:27.420
Yeah, I mean, I think obviously he's got, he's inspired by a lot of the original series and he, not remakes per se, but he, he, he riffs on it.

1163
01:17:27.479 --> 01:17:30.060
Yeah, he wants to build on it and say, well, this is this number.

1164
01:17:30.119 --> 01:17:31.619
So I'll do that and so on.

1165
01:17:31.680 --> 01:17:34.319
He takes that inspiration and then, as you said, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1166
01:17:34.380 --> 01:17:36.960
And how can you make a new series of noct 2 and not have the dialects invade Earth?

1167
01:17:37.020 --> 01:17:37.859
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1168
01:17:37.920 --> 01:17:42.779
And, you know, like, to be fair, that too part of it, which I think is, you know, one of the best things that the new series ever does.

1169
01:17:42.840 --> 01:17:45.840
No, no, the two-parter at the end of series one, I think is magnificent.

1170
01:17:45.899 --> 01:17:52.439
Yeah, yeah. is mostly about, you know, other TV shows that are on at the time.

1171
01:17:52.500 --> 01:17:54.960
Because the best Starlic stories don't have Daleks in them too much.

1172
01:17:55.020 --> 01:17:55.859
Yeah, yeah.

1173
01:17:55.920 --> 01:17:57.359
Well, they turn up at the end of episode one.

1174
01:17:59.220 --> 01:18:01.079
Of course they do.

1175
01:18:01.140 --> 01:18:09.899
There is a little part of me that will always be slightly mad at Russell that we didn't find out in the stolen earth, that Tyler in Darlic Invasion Earth is a descendant.

1176
01:18:09.960 --> 01:18:11.340
You know who.