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This transcript was created on 2026-05-03 at 08:39:00

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to 500 year diary.

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The only Doctor Who podcast emerging slowly from the waters of the

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Thames, in the hope of kicking off an exciting second year.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Peter.

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I'm Simon. and I'm Todd.

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It's the 21st of November, 1964.

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It's been 11 months since Jackie Hill was forced to scream at a

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sink plunger, and tonight, 11400000 people have tuned in for a

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rematch.

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From shrieking racist robots in some futuristic space corridors to

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the doctor's greatest and most mythic enemy.

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Let's see how, and if, that transformation is achieved, in the

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Dalek invasion of Earth.

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Let's say something about this story that I don't think is said

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very often.

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It's really not very well made, is it?

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I think that's indisputable.

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There are, I think, parts of it that are very well made, and that

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just stands in stock relief to all the parts that aren't.

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There's definitely things that are disappointing about the

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production.

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A lot of it unfortunately does come down to the director.

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I also want to say a lot of it comes down to the designer as

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well.

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You can tell that Ray Koustic has not been a designer. this

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story.

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But having said that, I think it tries very hard.

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And I think part of the reason for a lot of the failures is

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because it's being scripted as if it is a fully budgeted feature

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film.

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Like it's almost being scripted for the feature film remake rather

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than for it to be filmed in a microscopic studio.

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It's very interesting because I realised as I was watching this, I

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actually know the movie better than this.

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Oh, absolutely, me too.

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And I kept comparing it to the movie.

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And I even kept saying to myself, this is like the pilot episode

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not even the pilot episode for American series where they've given

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them money to say go and film something, right?

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With this script, and we won't give you enough to do all the

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special effects, you can just have like a shot of a UFO that

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you're going to zoom in on.

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You going to have like baby crocodiles.

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You're going to have, near enough is good enough with some

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performances like, and you're going to present it to us.

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And then you present it to us, and then we just tighten up the

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script at the end and focus on the mining at the quarry and give

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you a much bigger Dalek set, and all those big set pieces will

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give you money for in the robe, and men will look much better and

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we'll go and film the movie as the pilot episode.

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Well, actually, the Robaman, I thought that about the Robaman, the

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1st time I saw it, whenever it was, the early 90s, because again, I

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was so used to the film, but I actually think these robamen are

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far more awful looking because you've got the bits of wire and

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you've got the kind of the white skull cap which goes on.

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Yes, when they pull off the helmet and they've got the skull cap

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on it.

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It looks awful.

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It looks awful. and the performances are all like they are, the

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walking dead, they're zombies.

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So in some respects, in hindsight, I think that they do make the

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right decision with the Roman, I think the slick version of the

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Roman, you get in the film, is actually the wrong decision for

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what they are.

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And let's just say there's no scene in this Dalek invasion of

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Earth where the road men are lining up to get their food and it's

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all comedy slapstick.

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Comedy relief, yes.

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Yes.

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I would say that this might be the fullest example in all of

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Doctor Who of the sum being more than its parts.

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I want to compare it to like the other 2 Dalek stories on either

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side of it because Richard Martin obviously directs about half of

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the Daleks, is that right?

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Yes, 4 a half.

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Yeah.

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And then he directs the chase.

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Which is the poorer.

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Which is the poorer third.

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And I actually remember the last time I watched the chase for

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another podcast that I was appearing in, that I was absolutely

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horrified by how terrible it looked, like just how extraordinarily

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poor it was.

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And I remember it might have been the 1st black and white story

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that I ever saw in kind of reasonable condition because it was

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part of that box set, with remembrance of the dialects on the

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chase.

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And I saw the chase and I thought, oh, that must be what 1960s

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Doctor Who is like.

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And often that is what 1960s Doctor Who is like.

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It doesn't have to be like that.

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And certainly after we get the chase, we get the dialect master

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plan and the surviving episodes of that that are directed by

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Douglas Campfield.

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And of course, that is one of the enduring mysteries of Richard

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Martin, who I'm sure we'll talk lots more about, being given after

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his work on the Daleks.

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The big episodes of the series, Darlic Invasion of Earth, the

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Chase, the Web Planet.

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He is entirely the wrong director for those stories.

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He's the right director, I think, for maybe some other stories.

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But suddenly when you get to Starlet Masterplan, and you've got

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Dougie in charge.

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It all works.

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And it's amazing.

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Even in sort of tiny studios, even with all of the, you know

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restrictions, budgetary restrictions, and so on.

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It wasn't inevitable that you would have Richard Martin just point

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a camera at something that's vaguely happening in the foreground.

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I actually don't think that that's why it's terrible.

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I don't think it's not laziness.

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First of all, just going back to the 1st point about why does

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Richard Martin get to do those three?

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What are effectively the 3 showcase?

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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I think it may be to do with.

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Look, his episodes of the Daleks, I think, are his best work, as

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in the original show, original serial, are I think his best work

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on the show.

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That will play into something I'll say later.

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Yes, but that's probably partly because he's already got it all

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set up, thanks to Christopher Barry and Ray Cuzick, which is very

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very vitally. was very, very vital to the success of that story.

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What you get on the DVD extras, and I was watching, I didn't watch

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all of it, but what most of the making of documentation of Earth

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are this.

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And they all say how lovely he was, and I think it's Bernard Kay

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who said that he didn't really get things right sometimes, or at

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least it was all too much of a nice place to be.

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So with these directors, A, you need to find someone who is

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available and willing and even though the show's new, it's still

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like, 0 God, do I really want to work on that?

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It sounds like a complete nightmare.

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He probably was also brought in because he kept the place happy.

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He kept everything ticking along.

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We got to Friday night.

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We shot it all, whenever it was, and we got through it.

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I think his problem is, is that he doesn't, he's got all that time

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in rehearsal in acting or wherever it is.

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And then you have such a tiny amount of time in the studio.

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And I think what it comes down to is his ambition for that, is

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that his vision for that, is not possible within the multicamera

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studio environment.

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Because if you look at the film shots, you know, running through

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London and all that sort of stuff, they are well shot, good angles

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interesting choices.

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Like even when, you know, when Dortmund is on the ground after

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he's been killed lying there while they drive the truck out, you

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know, it's an interesting angle.

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He's trying to do all that and it's just not possible with his

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clunky cameras, but he's not taking that into account when he's

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doing his camera script.

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So the cameramen are trying to get from A to B. They're not making

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it to here.

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They're not making it to there.

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So I don't think it's the fact that the camera just pointed in a

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random spot.

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I think it ends up being pointed in a random spot because it can't

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get to where it's supposed to be.

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Let me add something to this and also I'll push back on

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something.

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So I think Richard Martin was trying to create art.

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I interviewed him for 3 hours in 1995.

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And what constantly came across was that he was frustrated in his

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goals.

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He wanted to create something amazing and never could.

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Now, you can debate where the fault for that lies.

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Obviously, if you're trying to create art, it's almost impossible

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under the restrictions that you have making an episode of Doc 2 in

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70 minutes in the studio.

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So, who works the Doctor Who is people who make the very best that

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they can within the limitations that they're working under?

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He was always shooting for the sky and frequently missing, and

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that is much worse than lowering your sights a little bit and

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achieving something that is pretty good.

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Now, I also...

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There is absolutely a happy medium, yes.

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And I want to push back a little bit on this characterisation of

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Richard as someone who is kind of either well-meaning and liked by

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the team or who just placed his cameras.

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I think he would entirely disagree with that and I think I would

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as well.

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I think he viewed himself as an iconoclastic bomb thrower.

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He was trying to blow everything up and do everything his way and

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get people to produce some art, damn it.

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Of course, he didn't succeed.

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Mostly.

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He did occasionally, but he was not a Morris Barry.

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He wasn't someone who went in and said, oh, that'll do, love.

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He was always striving for more.

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It's just a case if he was striving for far too much.

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And even the stuff on the web planet is noticeably better, I think

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than certainly the stuff on either Dalek conversion of earth or

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the chase.

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Don't you think?

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Yes, I think it's really interesting what you've both said.

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Obviously, you've got a personal experience of talking to him and

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finding out all this information.

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I think what you've said is that I think it's far worse that he

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strive to do so much and frequently misses because then surely you

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would adjust yourself saying, like, you know, in the chase, by the

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time you get to chase, okay, I know I can't do as much.

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So let's pull it back a bit and I'm going to get it much more on

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target and that still doesn't happen.

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And I think that is, well, it's just going to sound horrible

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unforgivable.

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And at points in this, I was just sitting there going, this is the

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attack on the Dalek spaceship and it's like one punch and the

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robomen are down.

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Like it's not even a punch.

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Those sequences are just we've had a week of rehearsal and this is

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what you're giving me.

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I mean, he's incredibly poor at action in the studio.

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Yes, 100%.

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I agree, bad.

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He can't cover.

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No.

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And that's hugely evident, I think, in the chase where you've got

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the big fight on a radius, and you've got the big fight in the

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haunted house.

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And both of them are just, there's a camera distant from the

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action pointing over everyone's head and things are happening.

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And that scene at the helipad.

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I think he's really quite terrible.

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Sluggish and odd.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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I think there's a reason for this because he said to me that he

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would have these complicated camera scripts where he was trying to

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cover the action.

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It would all just go horribly wrong and the vision mixer would say

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get out of the way, Clive, and just do some cutting, usually to

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the wide shot that was covering everything, which is probably why

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it's all just started to disintegrate in the shot choice.

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And they've just cut to the wide shop, which is why there's

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characters and daleks going backwards and forwards.

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And often waiting for something to happen so that they can do

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their bit. absolutely.

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And so I think it's exactly what Simon said.

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The cameras can't get there.

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His camera scripts are too complicated.

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He's asking too much of the camera people to be able to get into

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position to get that shot.

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So they're always a 2nd late.

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It cuts to them and they're always still focussing or sort of

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wobbling onto the MCU that they want.

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And then you miss the action, and like Todd said, the chase

248
00:11:23.039 --> 00:11:25.620
becomes the most egregious example, where in the haunted house

249
00:11:25.620 --> 00:11:29.039
episode, Everything you need to see happens a 2nd before

250
00:11:29.039 --> 00:11:29.700
offscreen.

251
00:11:29.759 --> 00:11:30.539
Yeah.

252
00:11:30.539 --> 00:11:34.620
And what I would say to follow up on Todd's point and to push back

253
00:11:34.620 --> 00:11:37.980
on you, Peter, is that why hasn't he learned his lesson by that?

254
00:11:38.039 --> 00:11:40.019
Oh, there's no pushback. agree with you.

255
00:11:40.080 --> 00:11:40.679
You do what I mean?

256
00:11:40.799 --> 00:11:44.100
And I think that, okay, that's a reason for it being rubbish in

257
00:11:44.100 --> 00:11:46.019
Dalek invasion of Earth.

258
00:11:46.139 --> 00:11:49.500
And maybe he gets away with it a little bit in Web Planet, and he

259
00:11:49.500 --> 00:11:52.139
thinks it, alt, was just a cumbersome nature of the costumes and

260
00:11:52.139 --> 00:11:53.399
so on, which is why we couldn't do that.

261
00:11:53.460 --> 00:11:55.860
But then, yeah, the chase is the most egregious example, as you

262
00:11:55.860 --> 00:11:56.100
say.

263
00:11:56.159 --> 00:12:00.419
I really like what you had to say about the location work.

264
00:12:00.480 --> 00:12:04.200
This is the 1st time I've had so much location work integrated

265
00:12:04.200 --> 00:12:06.539
into a Doctor Who story.

266
00:12:06.600 --> 00:12:08.759
Because Rand of Chair is the first, isn't it?

267
00:12:08.820 --> 00:12:11.940
But it's just a long shot with someone else playing the doctor.

268
00:12:12.720 --> 00:12:13.139
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

269
00:12:13.200 --> 00:12:16.259
We're used to as children of the late 70s, early 80s.

270
00:12:16.320 --> 00:12:19.440
We're used to Doctor Who with location work integrated in with

271
00:12:19.440 --> 00:12:21.240
studio work and it's just 2nd nature to us.

272
00:12:21.299 --> 00:12:22.980
But this is the 1st time the show is really doing it.

273
00:12:23.039 --> 00:12:25.080
So I have to give it kudos for that.

274
00:12:25.139 --> 00:12:27.539
You know, we're trying something new.

275
00:12:27.600 --> 00:12:28.919
Technology is moving on.

276
00:12:28.980 --> 00:12:29.879
We've got bigger budgets.

277
00:12:29.940 --> 00:12:32.340
We are really trying to move. going to the next level.

278
00:12:32.399 --> 00:12:33.480
And this is the thing.

279
00:12:33.539 --> 00:12:36.360
When you look at television, whether it be in the United States or

280
00:12:36.360 --> 00:12:38.399
whether it be in the UK.

281
00:12:38.460 --> 00:12:42.059
If you look at like 61 to 64, and if you look at like, say, 67 to

282
00:12:42.059 --> 00:12:45.779
69, there is a big change, because we've got newer technology

283
00:12:45.779 --> 00:12:48.360
we've got used to the techniques of television, we've got a

284
00:12:48.360 --> 00:12:51.720
different psyche around, you know, the swinging 60s, et cetera.

285
00:12:51.779 --> 00:12:52.860
I have 200 lines on the screen.

286
00:12:53.340 --> 00:12:54.779
True.

287
00:12:54.840 --> 00:12:58.320
But where we are, you've got to start somewhere in terms of

288
00:12:58.320 --> 00:13:00.240
pushing the technology forward.

289
00:13:00.299 --> 00:13:04.320
And this is where I think over from this, well, all of Doctor Who

290
00:13:04.320 --> 00:13:08.340
but really these next 2 seasons, up until around like the moon

291
00:13:07.740 --> 00:13:11.820
based sort of macro terror where we're sort of much more Doctor

292
00:13:11.820 --> 00:13:15.179
Who is Doctor Who as we know it, like these next 2 years are

293
00:13:15.179 --> 00:13:18.059
pushing that envelope and trying with that technology and we're

294
00:13:18.059 --> 00:13:19.139
going to have failures and not.

295
00:13:19.200 --> 00:13:23.460
And so for that matter, for this time round, the 1st time round

296
00:13:23.460 --> 00:13:24.480
that we're really doing it.

297
00:13:24.539 --> 00:13:26.460
You know, we've got to start somewhere.

298
00:13:26.519 --> 00:13:28.679
Do you notice something about the location work, about a lot of

299
00:13:28.679 --> 00:13:29.279
the location work?

300
00:13:29.399 --> 00:13:33.960
Is it that Britain in the 60s looks like post-war Britain and

301
00:13:33.960 --> 00:13:34.799
they've lost the war?

302
00:13:34.980 --> 00:13:37.500
Or that the Daleks have invaded?

303
00:13:37.559 --> 00:13:40.799
No, it's the fact that actually only a very small amount of it has

304
00:13:40.799 --> 00:13:41.340
sink sound.

305
00:13:42.299 --> 00:13:46.500
I picked this up because I think when we were at University Peter

306
00:13:46.500 --> 00:13:50.159
we were shown in episode, we would have been homicide, which was

307
00:13:50.159 --> 00:13:52.139
dated, which is I think was 964 as well.

308
00:13:52.200 --> 00:13:54.299
And they made a particular point when they showed it to us.

309
00:13:54.360 --> 00:13:57.299
None of the location work in it, had sync sound.

310
00:13:57.360 --> 00:13:59.519
It was people getting out of cars, it was walking up to the police

311
00:13:59.519 --> 00:14:02.639
station, so on like that because it was just too difficult to be

312
00:14:02.639 --> 00:14:03.360
able to do it.

313
00:14:03.419 --> 00:14:06.059
And so all the stuff running through Trafalgar Square running

314
00:14:06.059 --> 00:14:07.740
across, you know, Westminster Bridge and stuff.

315
00:14:07.799 --> 00:14:10.860
It's all silent. and even the stuff with the van and so on

316
00:14:10.860 --> 00:14:14.039
crashing to the Daleks, that sound is all folded later.

317
00:14:14.100 --> 00:14:16.379
What about the stuff in episode one?

318
00:14:16.440 --> 00:14:19.019
Oh, there is some, it's not I not saying all of it. a surprising

319
00:14:19.019 --> 00:14:21.720
amount of it when you think about it is mute, basically.

320
00:14:21.779 --> 00:14:24.720
And of course, that's down to the scheduling because they were

321
00:14:24.720 --> 00:14:27.360
like guerilla filmers, not...

322
00:14:27.419 --> 00:14:31.440
They had to like get in and shoot it and get out and doing that

323
00:14:31.440 --> 00:14:33.360
without sound enables that.

324
00:14:33.419 --> 00:14:34.679
You can basically set up the camera.

325
00:14:34.740 --> 00:14:37.379
Because a film camera is so light in comparison to a video

326
00:14:37.379 --> 00:14:37.860
camera.

327
00:14:37.860 --> 00:14:38.340
That's right.

328
00:14:38.340 --> 00:14:38.879
Other day.

329
00:14:38.940 --> 00:14:41.940
Also, you noticed the lighting in the location shot.

330
00:14:42.000 --> 00:14:44.820
It's not very good. just going with what is the available.

331
00:14:44.820 --> 00:14:45.480
Of course.

332
00:14:45.480 --> 00:14:47.039
Unfortunately, it's sunny day.

333
00:14:47.159 --> 00:14:50.580
They have to snatch that 102nd interval when they're down on the

334
00:14:50.580 --> 00:14:53.220
embankment when there's no one walking through the background and

335
00:14:53.220 --> 00:14:54.240
no one coming through the form.

336
00:14:54.299 --> 00:14:56.639
There is someone in the background of Trafalgar Square, I noticed

337
00:14:56.639 --> 00:14:58.500
and there is someone there is a...

338
00:14:58.500 --> 00:15:00.179
And there is a lorry.

339
00:15:00.240 --> 00:15:02.759
There is a lorry or something at the very end of Whitehall.

340
00:15:02.820 --> 00:15:04.139
Just very, very...

341
00:15:04.200 --> 00:15:05.159
I did notice those.

342
00:15:05.159 --> 00:15:07.139
It's like the blue array. thanks to the Blu-ray.

343
00:15:07.139 --> 00:15:07.919
Didn't you?

344
00:15:07.980 --> 00:15:09.059
I did I was watching them.

345
00:15:09.240 --> 00:15:13.679
I had to reduce the size of the window on the screen when I was

346
00:15:13.679 --> 00:15:16.799
watching it just because the picture quality on like a giant

347
00:15:16.799 --> 00:15:17.399
monitor.

348
00:15:17.460 --> 00:15:18.779
You can see the lines. terrible.

349
00:15:18.840 --> 00:15:19.919
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

350
00:15:19.980 --> 00:15:21.059
So sort of bringing it right down.

351
00:15:21.120 --> 00:15:24.120
I was obviously on the flight through the entirety episode that

352
00:15:24.120 --> 00:15:27.960
covered this and the thing that struck me most in context, you

353
00:15:27.960 --> 00:15:31.620
know, having watched Doctor Who threw all the way through to this

354
00:15:31.620 --> 00:15:34.320
point. all those episodes.

355
00:15:34.379 --> 00:15:36.419
Marco Polo, Mariners, and something.

356
00:15:36.480 --> 00:15:39.179
It's a lot Sorry to disappoint you.

357
00:15:39.240 --> 00:15:43.679
I think it was only 44, but...

358
00:15:43.799 --> 00:15:45.600
Depends for count part 4 of Paul.

359
00:15:45.659 --> 00:15:46.679
No, we're not counting.

360
00:15:46.740 --> 00:15:52.379
Like the location thing is absolutely the most striking thing.

361
00:15:52.440 --> 00:15:55.860
And because everyone's tuning in, I think next week gets slightly

362
00:15:55.860 --> 00:15:56.879
more viewers than this week.

363
00:15:56.940 --> 00:15:57.960
12.4.

364
00:15:58.139 --> 00:16:01.019
And the last episode also gets 12.4 as well.

365
00:16:01.080 --> 00:16:02.759
But everyone loves Sandy.

366
00:16:02.820 --> 00:16:04.919
It's kind of a cap, really.

367
00:16:04.980 --> 00:16:06.299
The ceiling.

368
00:16:06.360 --> 00:16:10.320
But this had been this had kind of been on the radio times.

369
00:16:10.379 --> 00:16:12.480
Everyone knew that it's a Dalek story.

370
00:16:12.539 --> 00:16:16.500
And so everyone is tuning in, and I think people who haven't tuned

371
00:16:16.500 --> 00:16:19.919
in since the Daleks were 1st on, and they had to be kind of some

372
00:16:19.919 --> 00:16:23.399
of them in there must have been going, oh my god, look, what's

373
00:16:23.399 --> 00:16:23.940
happened to this show?

374
00:16:24.000 --> 00:16:24.539
It looks amazing.

375
00:16:24.600 --> 00:16:26.460
But also it's outside factors.

376
00:16:26.519 --> 00:16:28.919
Yes, it gets great ratings because the Daleks are back and there's

377
00:16:28.919 --> 00:16:31.980
radio times cover, but also the Daleks has shown up in the lead up

378
00:16:31.980 --> 00:16:34.559
to Christmas and the Christmas holidays, the rescue is shown in

379
00:16:34.559 --> 00:16:35.159
the early new year.

380
00:16:35.220 --> 00:16:36.960
Yeah, there's a huge available audience.

381
00:16:37.019 --> 00:16:38.879
So they did this on purpose.

382
00:16:38.940 --> 00:16:41.220
They knew they'd have a big audience and they delivered.

383
00:16:41.279 --> 00:16:44.580
What I like is the fact that they're still playing to their

384
00:16:44.580 --> 00:16:47.519
limitations, the fact that yes, they've got to get in and out of

385
00:16:47.519 --> 00:16:48.600
that location filming.

386
00:16:48.659 --> 00:16:51.539
And so as Simon said, there's very little sink sound, there's no

387
00:16:51.539 --> 00:16:54.000
lighting set up on the location, they just go for it.

388
00:16:54.059 --> 00:16:58.919
But also, they had to record this story now because it's the end

389
00:16:58.919 --> 00:17:01.919
of the production block, and it's the only time they're able to

390
00:17:01.919 --> 00:17:05.220
actually find those days to get out and film it.

391
00:17:05.339 --> 00:17:06.539
It's like going forwards.

392
00:17:06.599 --> 00:17:09.480
The smugglers has lots of location filming because it's the end of

393
00:17:09.480 --> 00:17:10.019
the recording.

394
00:17:10.140 --> 00:17:13.680
The abominable snowmen and the invasion have lots of location

395
00:17:13.680 --> 00:17:16.920
filming because it's the start of their production blocks.

396
00:17:16.980 --> 00:17:20.940
And so they know what they're doing with utilising their resources

397
00:17:20.940 --> 00:17:23.099
for pushing them as far as they can.

398
00:17:32.759 --> 00:17:36.420
Just going back to the Richard Martin thing, again, I just wanted

399
00:17:36.420 --> 00:17:39.539
to pick up on the designer aspect, because when you were talking

400
00:17:39.539 --> 00:17:43.079
about the attack on the Dalek spaceship, I think that's where the

401
00:17:43.079 --> 00:17:48.059
frankly, quite rubbish sets are in evidence most, because you've

402
00:17:48.059 --> 00:17:52.019
got the operation bed where people are robotised, which is just on

403
00:17:52.019 --> 00:17:54.660
the other side of a small space where the cells are off.

404
00:17:54.720 --> 00:17:57.180
Now, I know that the studio is microscopic, but the way that is

405
00:17:57.180 --> 00:18:01.019
shot as well is just awful because when, you know, the doctor's

406
00:18:01.019 --> 00:18:05.400
lying on the bed and Tyler's behind that tiny wall and all this

407
00:18:05.400 --> 00:18:06.180
action's happening.

408
00:18:06.240 --> 00:18:07.799
You just don't get a sense.

409
00:18:07.859 --> 00:18:11.700
Like, it's just so awfully cramped and actually have a continuous

410
00:18:11.700 --> 00:18:15.119
crab, which breaks television grammar completely, where you go

411
00:18:15.119 --> 00:18:18.720
from outside that set and then just crab across to inside the

412
00:18:18.720 --> 00:18:19.079
set.

413
00:18:19.140 --> 00:18:21.240
And it's very clear that there's no wall there.

414
00:18:21.299 --> 00:18:22.859
You can see where the wall ends.

415
00:18:22.920 --> 00:18:26.039
And he does it again later in that episode where Ian is hiding in

416
00:18:26.039 --> 00:18:27.900
the little bolt hole underneath.

417
00:18:27.960 --> 00:18:31.079
And so he shoots in a little pot, but he shoots too wide.

418
00:18:31.079 --> 00:18:33.359
So you can see that it's actually cuts away.

419
00:18:33.420 --> 00:18:36.240
You should be in close with him to give the impression and then

420
00:18:36.240 --> 00:18:37.619
cut to the top and he comes out.

421
00:18:37.740 --> 00:18:39.720
There's no opportunity for retake.

422
00:18:39.779 --> 00:18:43.259
There is, but all you have to say is camera 3 getting closer

423
00:18:43.259 --> 00:18:43.440
love.

424
00:18:43.500 --> 00:18:46.200
Well, it's too late, but it's too late by then, frankly.

425
00:18:46.259 --> 00:18:47.160
That's the problem.

426
00:18:47.279 --> 00:18:49.980
Yes, there's no opportunity for retakes.

427
00:18:50.039 --> 00:18:52.859
Like, you know, when they attack that robber man, and then he has

428
00:18:52.859 --> 00:18:54.660
to bump into the equipment and it all explodes.

429
00:18:54.720 --> 00:18:58.500
He seems to have 2 goes at it. because the effect hasn't gone off

430
00:18:58.500 --> 00:18:58.799
or something.

431
00:19:00.299 --> 00:19:03.839
Can we talk about things that go right in the production, though?

432
00:19:03.900 --> 00:19:06.059
And one of them, I think, is the music.

433
00:19:06.119 --> 00:19:07.259
Very good.

434
00:19:07.259 --> 00:19:12.059
The music, so this is someone who never works on the show, again

435
00:19:12.119 --> 00:19:13.019
his name is Francis.

436
00:19:13.019 --> 00:19:13.859
Richard Martin?

437
00:19:13.920 --> 00:19:15.059
Sean.

438
00:19:15.119 --> 00:19:16.680
Oh, he worked.

439
00:19:17.880 --> 00:19:19.799
He got paid.

440
00:19:19.859 --> 00:19:22.740
Yeah, France's chagrin.

441
00:19:22.799 --> 00:19:23.700
Chagrin.

442
00:19:23.759 --> 00:19:25.859
I don't know, but it is that French word.

443
00:19:25.920 --> 00:19:28.440
He doesn't work on it again, and it is incredible.

444
00:19:28.500 --> 00:19:33.599
So the staff in episode 3 with the Daleks in Trafalgar Square and

445
00:19:33.599 --> 00:19:36.599
going along the embankment, which is all that sort of very weird

446
00:19:36.599 --> 00:19:40.559
very experimental sort of percussion.

447
00:19:40.619 --> 00:19:44.400
There's some very weird piano stuff at the end at the climax.

448
00:19:44.460 --> 00:19:47.519
Like it's really... very avant-garde. great, isn't it?

449
00:19:47.579 --> 00:19:48.960
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

450
00:19:49.019 --> 00:19:52.500
But it's also just sort of terribly modern in the way that the

451
00:19:52.500 --> 00:19:55.740
theme music is as well. like the score for the invasion.

452
00:19:55.799 --> 00:19:59.039
Yeah, which is just atmospherics, which underline...

453
00:19:59.039 --> 00:20:00.119
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

454
00:20:00.180 --> 00:20:03.299
It certainly makes that tense, I think, and strange.

455
00:20:03.359 --> 00:20:06.480
You know, the whole purpose, I think, of that location footage and

456
00:20:06.480 --> 00:20:10.259
why it works so well is that it's familiar places with Daleks in

457
00:20:10.259 --> 00:20:12.960
them, which is something that we couldn't have imagined, I think

458
00:20:12.960 --> 00:20:14.640
as little as 11 months ago.

459
00:20:14.700 --> 00:20:18.779
And it just serves to make those places even more strange and

460
00:20:18.779 --> 00:20:19.319
threatening.

461
00:20:19.380 --> 00:20:21.420
It really lifts the episodes at their in.

462
00:20:21.480 --> 00:20:24.059
The Dalek plunges are very, very long.

463
00:20:24.119 --> 00:20:27.240
They're great I love the extended dark.

464
00:20:27.359 --> 00:20:28.920
Yeah, well, they have to do Elon Musk.

465
00:20:29.759 --> 00:20:33.059
They were bragging about that in the bar on Friday.

466
00:20:33.839 --> 00:20:38.339
I think that's important, Nathan, because, like Simon said, a lot

467
00:20:38.339 --> 00:20:42.480
of location filming is shot without location sound, and so it

468
00:20:42.480 --> 00:20:43.140
relies on the music.

469
00:20:43.200 --> 00:20:47.700
And so it gives it a real sense of pace, those scenes where

470
00:20:47.700 --> 00:20:51.180
Barbara and Jenny are trying to escape London with Dortmund.

471
00:20:51.180 --> 00:20:54.480
And the music ramps up the tension, which otherwise isn't really

472
00:20:54.480 --> 00:20:54.779
there.

473
00:20:54.779 --> 00:20:58.380
Because again, going back to Richard Martin, he's handed this gift

474
00:20:58.380 --> 00:21:02.039
of going to central London, shoot the deserted streets.

475
00:21:02.099 --> 00:21:04.920
Dialects are invaded, it seems impossible you could muck that up

476
00:21:04.920 --> 00:21:06.599
and yet occasionally I think he does.

477
00:21:06.660 --> 00:21:10.500
There are some great shots in there, but there's also some what?

478
00:21:10.559 --> 00:21:13.920
Shots like shooting around the Royal Albert Hall, which I think

479
00:21:13.920 --> 00:21:17.460
unless you're a Londoner, is not immediately recognisable as a

480
00:21:17.460 --> 00:21:18.000
location.

481
00:21:18.119 --> 00:21:19.799
The scrap extension of cream Victoria, isn't it?

482
00:21:19.859 --> 00:21:22.200
Well, that's the Albert Memorial, yes, but.

483
00:21:22.259 --> 00:21:23.460
But on 405...

484
00:21:23.579 --> 00:21:24.779
You are a Londoner, though, aren't you?

485
00:21:24.839 --> 00:21:26.700
I don't, absolutely.

486
00:21:26.759 --> 00:21:29.279
Sorry, I said, oh, look, it's the Royal Arpent Hall.

487
00:21:29.339 --> 00:21:32.099
Well, I just think there was more opportunities there.

488
00:21:32.160 --> 00:21:33.480
Look at what Dougie does.

489
00:21:33.539 --> 00:21:34.559
Dougie goes, okay, St.

490
00:21:34.559 --> 00:21:35.339
Paul's Cathedral.

491
00:21:35.400 --> 00:21:37.559
Yeah, he chooses the really obvious.

492
00:21:37.619 --> 00:21:38.460
Yes, and where else?

493
00:21:38.519 --> 00:21:40.740
Well, there's that street that they walk around.

494
00:21:40.799 --> 00:21:41.400
Yes, exactly.

495
00:21:41.460 --> 00:21:42.779
My point is there's a pub.

496
00:21:42.839 --> 00:21:45.299
Yeah, but the point being, I think we've done a pretty good job

497
00:21:45.299 --> 00:21:48.420
getting Westminster Bridge, Trafalgar Square, and Whitehall, and I

498
00:21:48.420 --> 00:21:51.599
think that the Albert Memorial is probably pretty good as well.

499
00:21:51.660 --> 00:21:54.839
And even if we don't, okay, it's not outside Buckingham Palace, but

500
00:21:54.839 --> 00:21:55.680
that probably was too hard.

501
00:21:55.799 --> 00:21:57.240
And remember, they're not doing this with permission.

502
00:21:57.299 --> 00:21:58.920
They're just turning up at 5 AM.

503
00:21:58.980 --> 00:22:01.859
That's absolutely... they are shot as well.

504
00:22:01.920 --> 00:22:04.380
Like when they're walking down, I think it's the cenotaph towards

505
00:22:04.380 --> 00:22:05.339
Trafalgar Square.

506
00:22:05.400 --> 00:22:06.480
Whitehall.

507
00:22:06.539 --> 00:22:06.720
Yeah.

508
00:22:06.779 --> 00:22:07.859
There's no establishing shots.

509
00:22:07.980 --> 00:22:10.200
There's nothing to actually show you where you are.

510
00:22:10.259 --> 00:22:13.079
You're already watching them in the action and then work out a

511
00:22:13.079 --> 00:22:14.099
movement later where they are.

512
00:22:14.160 --> 00:22:15.240
I agree with you.

513
00:22:15.299 --> 00:22:17.759
It's not terrible, but I think more could have been done with

514
00:22:17.759 --> 00:22:18.000
this.

515
00:22:18.059 --> 00:22:21.240
And I think a director like Duggee would have really made those

516
00:22:21.240 --> 00:22:24.180
show stopping pieces, and I'm not sure that's exactly what you

517
00:22:24.180 --> 00:22:24.420
get.

518
00:22:24.480 --> 00:22:27.240
What the hell is Jenny wearing?

519
00:22:27.299 --> 00:22:31.019
She looks like snuggle, pot and cuddle pie, the gum nut.

520
00:22:31.859 --> 00:22:32.880
And I hate them.

521
00:22:32.940 --> 00:22:34.980
And I just and I just look at that.

522
00:22:35.039 --> 00:22:37.140
I just think, what were they thinking?

523
00:22:37.200 --> 00:22:38.700
So hate Jenny.

524
00:22:38.759 --> 00:22:41.940
Well, actually, no, I think she's a better actress than Carol Anne

525
00:22:41.940 --> 00:22:42.359
Ford.

526
00:22:42.420 --> 00:22:45.059
Well, yeah, low bar, low bar.

527
00:22:45.720 --> 00:22:47.400
You want to know why?

528
00:22:47.460 --> 00:22:48.000
Yes, please.

529
00:22:48.059 --> 00:22:52.380
It's because she naturally has darker hair and they wanted her to

530
00:22:52.380 --> 00:22:54.480
have blonde hair for the production so that she could be told

531
00:22:54.480 --> 00:22:58.440
apart on a 5 inch screen between Barbara and someone like that

532
00:22:58.440 --> 00:23:00.299
because, you know, all women look the same, obviously.

533
00:23:00.359 --> 00:23:03.299
So she had to get her hair dyed, but she hadn't had it dyed or

534
00:23:03.299 --> 00:23:06.539
bleached by the time the location work because that was done 1st

535
00:23:06.539 --> 00:23:09.660
and so they put a balaclava on her to hide it.

536
00:23:09.720 --> 00:23:13.200
It would have been improved if Barbara had also been...

537
00:23:13.200 --> 00:23:15.000
Yes.

538
00:23:15.000 --> 00:23:16.619
Then you wouldn't have told them apart.

539
00:23:16.680 --> 00:23:20.039
Scarf, you know, pulled out of her capacious pockets.

540
00:23:23.099 --> 00:23:28.200
Richard Martin is such an interesting case because I can see so

541
00:23:28.200 --> 00:23:29.700
much of what he's trying to do.

542
00:23:29.759 --> 00:23:32.400
So I was watching that 1st scene in the Tardis.

543
00:23:32.460 --> 00:23:35.579
It's the 1st scene in the studio of the entire show.

544
00:23:35.640 --> 00:23:37.799
And it's all shot in one frame.

545
00:23:37.859 --> 00:23:40.440
So you've got the console in front.

546
00:23:40.500 --> 00:23:44.220
You've got the scanner behind and you've got the camera in front

547
00:23:44.220 --> 00:23:47.339
looking at both of them at this strangely high angle.

548
00:23:47.400 --> 00:23:50.579
And the reason is he wants the doctor to be in the background

549
00:23:50.579 --> 00:23:51.539
wandering around.

550
00:23:51.599 --> 00:23:52.920
It's not framed for that shot.

551
00:23:52.980 --> 00:23:54.720
It's framed for where the shot will end up eventually.

552
00:23:54.779 --> 00:23:57.660
So all William Hartnell does is wander around in front of the

553
00:23:57.660 --> 00:24:00.539
console between that and the scanner with the camera just trained

554
00:24:00.539 --> 00:24:01.440
on him in wide shot.

555
00:24:01.500 --> 00:24:04.619
He then moves it out of shot camera right for 3 seconds.

556
00:24:04.680 --> 00:24:09.059
So there's nothing on screen before wandering back into shot

557
00:24:09.059 --> 00:24:12.299
weirdly close to the camera and in close-up so that the other

558
00:24:12.299 --> 00:24:15.539
characters can then walk into shot, fill the space that he was

559
00:24:15.539 --> 00:24:15.779
in.

560
00:24:15.839 --> 00:24:17.880
And suddenly we have a fully composed shot.

561
00:24:18.000 --> 00:24:19.140
Mise en scene.

562
00:24:19.200 --> 00:24:20.759
It is mis-on-sen.

563
00:24:20.819 --> 00:24:24.720
It doesn't work because it's incredibly static and wrongly

564
00:24:24.720 --> 00:24:25.259
framed.

565
00:24:25.319 --> 00:24:28.859
Now this could be an analogue for most of Richard Martin's work

566
00:24:28.859 --> 00:24:30.839
incredibly static and wrongly framed.

567
00:24:30.900 --> 00:24:33.660
But I can see what he was trying to do.

568
00:24:33.720 --> 00:24:36.839
He was trying to save time in the studio by doing it in one shot

569
00:24:36.839 --> 00:24:38.700
with people moving around in it.

570
00:24:38.700 --> 00:24:42.059
So he could get onto the stuff which was more time consuming and

571
00:24:42.059 --> 00:24:45.240
which might, God forbid, require a retake or something.

572
00:24:45.299 --> 00:24:46.859
But it doesn't work.

573
00:24:46.920 --> 00:24:49.079
He just doesn't place his camera correctly.

574
00:24:49.140 --> 00:24:52.980
It's an astounding admission, isn't it, that we have here a

575
00:24:52.980 --> 00:24:57.180
director who can't do a scene in the TARDIS where people walk

576
00:24:57.180 --> 00:25:01.619
around the console effectively, and that's a problem, I think.

577
00:25:01.680 --> 00:25:03.720
I think what he's trying to do is he's trying to make that shot

578
00:25:03.720 --> 00:25:06.960
interesting, and he knows that he can set the camera up actually

579
00:25:06.960 --> 00:25:09.480
in the right position, or what he's regarded as the right position

580
00:25:09.480 --> 00:25:11.700
before we start, because that's where everything starts, because

581
00:25:11.700 --> 00:25:13.920
the Robeman sequence is a film insert.

582
00:25:13.980 --> 00:25:16.559
And he wanted to do that thing where he doesn't cut between

583
00:25:16.559 --> 00:25:17.099
things.

584
00:25:17.160 --> 00:25:20.700
He didn't want it to be that kind of standard coverage of the

585
00:25:20.700 --> 00:25:21.539
Tartis console room.

586
00:25:21.599 --> 00:25:25.980
I agree that doesn't work, but yeah, I allowed him...

587
00:25:25.980 --> 00:25:27.480
Not my large criticism.

588
00:25:27.480 --> 00:25:28.859
No, absolutely not mine either.

589
00:25:28.920 --> 00:25:31.079
And we'll see you when he comes to the chase, for instance.

590
00:25:31.140 --> 00:25:32.460
He always has ideas.

591
00:25:32.519 --> 00:25:33.660
He's always brimming with ideas.

592
00:25:33.720 --> 00:25:36.539
Some of them don't come off and some of them are just like, okay

593
00:25:36.539 --> 00:25:38.099
that's an idea, but why did you go with that?

594
00:25:38.160 --> 00:25:40.980
In the chase, he puts the camera in place of the console.

595
00:25:41.039 --> 00:25:44.279
So the doctor is leaning over the camera and pretending to pull

596
00:25:44.279 --> 00:25:44.819
leave us.

597
00:25:44.880 --> 00:25:48.299
So the door's open, which is a fascinating idea, but doesn't work

598
00:25:48.299 --> 00:25:49.319
in the action.

599
00:25:49.380 --> 00:25:50.819
You're thinking, what are you doing?

600
00:25:50.940 --> 00:25:52.019
Oh, I see what we're doing.

601
00:25:52.079 --> 00:25:53.220
So you're following...

602
00:25:53.279 --> 00:25:55.619
Yeah, you're following the director's choices rather than them

603
00:25:55.619 --> 00:25:58.259
being natural and feeling like they belong in the action.

604
00:25:58.319 --> 00:26:01.920
Having said that, I don't want to crucify Richard Martin too much

605
00:26:01.920 --> 00:26:06.839
because I think some parts of the story really do work, and these

606
00:26:06.839 --> 00:26:08.819
I think, are the parts which play to his strengths.

607
00:26:08.880 --> 00:26:12.240
So going back to what I say, why is he the person who's in charge

608
00:26:12.240 --> 00:26:15.539
of these big action oriented stories when they are clearly not his

609
00:26:15.539 --> 00:26:16.140
wheelhouse?

610
00:26:16.200 --> 00:26:19.140
Imagine how different it would have been, Christopher Barry had

611
00:26:19.140 --> 00:26:22.259
been invited back to do the Dalek invasion of birth, and Dougie

612
00:26:22.259 --> 00:26:24.480
Canfield had been invited to do the web planets instead of the

613
00:26:24.480 --> 00:26:25.019
time meddler.

614
00:26:25.079 --> 00:26:27.960
Just imagine how differently those stories would exist.

615
00:26:28.019 --> 00:26:31.920
But when we get to episode five, I think it is, The Croones in the

616
00:26:31.920 --> 00:26:34.859
Wood, that sequence is magnificent.

617
00:26:34.920 --> 00:26:38.400
It's all set up, as Simon said, with Miz onsen.

618
00:26:38.460 --> 00:26:41.759
It done like a plea for today on a stage or corner of the studio.

619
00:26:41.819 --> 00:26:46.319
It's lit beautifully with the light from the storm coming in from

620
00:26:46.319 --> 00:26:46.740
outside.

621
00:26:46.799 --> 00:26:51.359
He gets these lovely close-ups on the 2 crones, which you don't

622
00:26:51.359 --> 00:26:54.119
often get in 60s talk 2, those intense close-ups.

623
00:26:54.180 --> 00:26:57.599
And the whole thing from beginning to end is a magic little

624
00:26:57.599 --> 00:27:00.779
sequence in the story that works perfectly.

625
00:27:00.839 --> 00:27:02.640
That's the kind of stuff he can do.

626
00:27:02.700 --> 00:27:04.920
Exactly, because it's standard drama.

627
00:27:04.980 --> 00:27:06.420
It just, it's not Doctor Who.

628
00:27:06.480 --> 00:27:07.380
It just, it's just normal.

629
00:27:07.440 --> 00:27:09.240
Remember, he does come from a theatre background.

630
00:27:09.299 --> 00:27:12.660
He's mainly a theatre director and that's his bread and butter.

631
00:27:12.779 --> 00:27:13.619
Interesting.

632
00:27:13.680 --> 00:27:16.440
I just want to observe something about that sequence and why we're

633
00:27:16.440 --> 00:27:19.859
talking about it, is it reminded me, this sounds ridiculous. of

634
00:27:19.859 --> 00:27:20.279
threads.

635
00:27:20.339 --> 00:27:22.500
Yes, Simon, yes.

636
00:27:22.559 --> 00:27:26.940
Right, because you've got this post-apocalyptic world and, I mean

637
00:27:26.940 --> 00:27:29.640
you called them old crones, but there's supposed to be mother and

638
00:27:29.640 --> 00:27:30.660
daughter, the younger one.

639
00:27:30.660 --> 00:27:31.980
I'm basically thinking of Eileen Way.

640
00:27:32.039 --> 00:27:33.000
Yes, exactly.

641
00:27:33.059 --> 00:27:35.519
I'm surprised it wasn't Eileen Way. should have been...

642
00:27:35.579 --> 00:27:39.059
But the younger one is hurt, obviously her daughter, and she's a

643
00:27:39.059 --> 00:27:39.720
simpleton.

644
00:27:39.779 --> 00:27:41.099
She hasn't been properly educated.

645
00:27:41.160 --> 00:27:43.980
It's like, it's like, you know, the decay of civilisation, you

646
00:27:43.980 --> 00:27:46.980
know, we've fallen off the edge just like in the threads.

647
00:27:47.039 --> 00:27:48.000
No, absolutely agree.

648
00:27:48.059 --> 00:27:51.240
It's funny because when I watch that sequence, I just think of the

649
00:27:51.240 --> 00:27:54.480
movie sequence and I just think of Louise, isn't the movie

650
00:27:54.480 --> 00:27:55.920
sequence actually Eileen Way?

651
00:27:55.980 --> 00:27:57.720
It might be, actually.

652
00:27:57.779 --> 00:27:58.380
Yeah, exactly.

653
00:27:58.380 --> 00:28:01.200
So, I guess old woman for rent.

654
00:28:01.859 --> 00:28:05.519
And this is going back to what Simon said, because threads is a

655
00:28:05.519 --> 00:28:09.660
very effective, obviously, post-apocalyptic nightmare.

656
00:28:09.720 --> 00:28:13.019
Terry Nation, who I'm sure we'll talk more about, gets all of

657
00:28:13.019 --> 00:28:13.980
those ideas right.

658
00:28:14.039 --> 00:28:18.059
He says, we need a creepy moment in the woods with people who are

659
00:28:18.059 --> 00:28:19.319
cut off from civilisation.

660
00:28:19.380 --> 00:28:22.799
It feels like we've regressed to kind of mediaeval times or, you

661
00:28:22.799 --> 00:28:23.640
know, the Middle Ages.

662
00:28:23.700 --> 00:28:27.000
And so he hones in on that drama, and that is a perfect little

663
00:28:27.000 --> 00:28:27.599
vineyard.

664
00:28:27.660 --> 00:28:29.400
It's my favourite sequence from the story.

665
00:28:29.460 --> 00:28:32.160
Well, certainly my favourite seconds from that episode, but that's

666
00:28:32.160 --> 00:28:32.759
not difficult.

667
00:28:32.880 --> 00:28:33.660
Not the slither?

668
00:28:34.079 --> 00:28:38.880
Ah, Jesus.

669
00:28:38.880 --> 00:28:43.859
I, you know, I, I think that that, I was wondering, though, whether

670
00:28:43.859 --> 00:28:46.200
that was supposed to be a Roberman being caught, because you can

671
00:28:46.200 --> 00:28:50.099
imagine a Roberman going, ah. that kind of, you know, like that

672
00:28:50.099 --> 00:28:52.019
robotic kind of...

673
00:28:52.079 --> 00:28:53.640
They say, stop.

674
00:28:53.940 --> 00:28:56.880
But I had totally forgotten it.

675
00:28:57.000 --> 00:29:00.240
Like, I could not remember it from when I 1st watched it.

676
00:29:00.299 --> 00:29:01.619
I just think of the movie.

677
00:29:01.680 --> 00:29:02.700
Is it in the movie?

678
00:29:02.759 --> 00:29:03.900
No, in the movie.

679
00:29:03.900 --> 00:29:05.400
Alas, it didn't make the cut.

680
00:29:05.519 --> 00:29:09.660
Ashton gets killed by the Daleks, which is obviously what has to

681
00:29:09.660 --> 00:29:09.960
happen.

682
00:29:10.019 --> 00:29:10.740
Yes.

683
00:29:10.740 --> 00:29:13.380
You know, in a sort of competent thing.

684
00:29:13.440 --> 00:29:16.380
But Terry loves those monsters.

685
00:29:16.440 --> 00:29:20.400
We have the Maya Beasts, we have whatever the hell that octopus is

686
00:29:20.400 --> 00:29:23.759
in the Daleks, you know, we have...

687
00:29:23.819 --> 00:29:27.779
We have Varga plants, you know, like he loves that star.

688
00:29:28.259 --> 00:29:31.799
Sorry, just when I saw it in the background with its little tiny

689
00:29:31.799 --> 00:29:37.319
claw things, like, it's, it's, claw is perfectly formed.

690
00:29:37.319 --> 00:29:39.480
It's so bad.

691
00:29:39.539 --> 00:29:41.220
It's like a one of the dalek claws, right?

692
00:29:41.220 --> 00:29:44.039
Yeah, but they swap the sink plunge of the floor without the metal

693
00:29:44.039 --> 00:29:44.759
casing.

694
00:29:44.819 --> 00:29:46.200
Skeleton.

695
00:29:46.259 --> 00:29:47.640
Because in the movie...

696
00:29:47.640 --> 00:29:48.539
Is it Ashton?

697
00:29:48.539 --> 00:29:51.779
Gets exterminated by the dark...

698
00:29:51.900 --> 00:29:52.619
Yeah, wonderful.

699
00:29:52.680 --> 00:29:55.079
And I remember that sequence so vividly.

700
00:29:55.140 --> 00:29:57.720
But in this, like I thought, okay, so they're going to go into

701
00:29:57.720 --> 00:29:59.099
their little hut, blah, blah, blah.

702
00:29:59.160 --> 00:30:02.700
And then it sort of, it sort of attacks the side of our heart and

703
00:30:02.700 --> 00:30:08.700
he just gives up. submits to the death of this thing and then it's

704
00:30:08.700 --> 00:30:12.599
coming after them and they jump into that whatever that wine

705
00:30:12.599 --> 00:30:13.200
cart.

706
00:30:13.259 --> 00:30:17.460
And then there's this small gap between the card and that.

707
00:30:17.460 --> 00:30:19.859
And it just sort of just goes, boom.

708
00:30:19.920 --> 00:30:24.119
I just I just said there going, why how?

709
00:30:24.180 --> 00:30:26.160
I don't understand either.

710
00:30:26.220 --> 00:30:27.359
Because it looks so terrible.

711
00:30:27.539 --> 00:30:30.240
Or more likely they just missed the shots of it.

712
00:30:30.299 --> 00:30:32.279
You don't actually see it.

713
00:30:32.339 --> 00:30:35.700
And so you have to have Ian and his friend Larry there going, it

714
00:30:35.700 --> 00:30:36.779
looks like it's about to jump.

715
00:30:36.839 --> 00:30:38.099
It's jumped.

716
00:30:39.480 --> 00:30:41.579
Same today as always.

717
00:30:41.640 --> 00:30:43.079
Doesn't it go, ooh.

718
00:30:46.440 --> 00:30:48.119
Yes, actually, I made it.

719
00:30:48.119 --> 00:30:49.799
It's a wonderful little squeal.

720
00:30:51.240 --> 00:30:54.059
It honestly thought it could jump that far.

721
00:30:54.119 --> 00:30:56.460
That 6 inch distance.

722
00:30:56.519 --> 00:30:59.700
That little sound was digetic to the studio.

723
00:30:59.759 --> 00:31:02.339
It was, it was falling at a dead feet.

724
00:31:04.500 --> 00:31:08.039
Can I just observe, though, about the slither whilst now that we

725
00:31:08.039 --> 00:31:09.180
appear to be talking about it?

726
00:31:09.240 --> 00:31:13.140
is that it is actually, unlike those creatures that were mentioned

727
00:31:13.140 --> 00:31:15.960
in the Daleks and even the brains with eyes on sticks in the keys

728
00:31:15.960 --> 00:31:17.160
of marinos and so on like that.

729
00:31:17.220 --> 00:31:18.359
Dexterity.

730
00:31:18.359 --> 00:31:19.500
Dexterity, indeed.

731
00:31:19.559 --> 00:31:24.720
This is basically the last gasp of, or this is the formal end of

732
00:31:24.720 --> 00:31:26.400
the no bug eyed monsters rule.

733
00:31:26.460 --> 00:31:29.519
Because when you think about it, basically, that's what we've

734
00:31:29.519 --> 00:31:31.619
arrived in, and we'll probably talk about this molitarination and

735
00:31:31.619 --> 00:31:32.099
so on like that.

736
00:31:32.160 --> 00:31:34.259
Terry has won that argument over Sydney.

737
00:31:34.319 --> 00:31:34.980
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

738
00:31:35.039 --> 00:31:38.940
Well, just through, you know, force of personality, I guess.

739
00:31:39.000 --> 00:31:42.240
Well, no, just to issue determination to completely ignore it.

740
00:31:42.299 --> 00:31:44.940
I mean, he wants to put silly monsters into the show.

741
00:31:45.059 --> 00:31:47.940
Well, that's what he that's what he thinks it is because of the 3

742
00:31:47.940 --> 00:31:50.880
page probably brief that he's been given, he may have read the 1st

743
00:31:50.880 --> 00:31:52.019
2.5 paragraphs.

744
00:31:52.140 --> 00:31:56.759
There is also kind of the thing where if you're not going to have

745
00:31:56.759 --> 00:32:00.720
monsters in a story, this is the one to not have them in, because

746
00:32:00.720 --> 00:32:04.799
you've got the Daleks right there, you know, you don't have to

747
00:32:04.799 --> 00:32:07.440
build a whatever the hell you think you're building when you put

748
00:32:07.440 --> 00:32:08.039
the slipper.

749
00:32:08.099 --> 00:32:10.319
But there's also 2 substitutes for the daleks.

750
00:32:10.380 --> 00:32:12.299
And you know, this is the thing, the doctor will do.

751
00:32:12.299 --> 00:32:12.900
Alligators?

752
00:32:12.960 --> 00:32:15.119
The baby alligators.

753
00:32:15.180 --> 00:32:16.680
I mean, them as well.

754
00:32:16.740 --> 00:32:18.299
Was it an episode of Thunderbirds?

755
00:32:18.359 --> 00:32:19.380
I don't know.

756
00:32:19.380 --> 00:32:21.660
The best episode of...

757
00:32:21.660 --> 00:32:24.599
No, you've got the slither, who is like substitute for the Daleks

758
00:32:24.599 --> 00:32:25.859
being there, but you've also got the rope in me.

759
00:32:25.920 --> 00:32:28.619
Yeah, so the rope man of the delayed gratification of getting the

760
00:32:28.619 --> 00:32:29.940
Daleks at the end of episode one.

761
00:32:30.000 --> 00:32:33.599
But Doctor Who does that throughout its history, and I think it

762
00:32:33.599 --> 00:32:34.980
has a long and venerable tradition.

763
00:32:35.039 --> 00:32:36.059
So you look at earth shock.

764
00:32:36.119 --> 00:32:39.480
There's no reason for those 2 black androids in the 1st episode to

765
00:32:39.480 --> 00:32:40.200
not be Cyberman.

766
00:32:40.259 --> 00:32:40.799
Yeah, yeah.

767
00:32:40.859 --> 00:32:41.819
And Terry understands that.

768
00:32:41.880 --> 00:32:44.400
He understands that you need the punch of what people are

769
00:32:44.400 --> 00:32:47.099
expecting not just to introduce them in the 1st scene.

770
00:32:47.160 --> 00:32:48.839
No, I think in this case.

771
00:32:48.900 --> 00:32:51.299
The reason why the Androids are there in Earthshock is to delay

772
00:32:51.299 --> 00:32:52.440
the appearance of the cybermen.

773
00:32:52.500 --> 00:32:54.960
The Roman are there, not just to delay the appearance of the

774
00:32:54.960 --> 00:32:57.660
Daleks, but also to provide more evil characters, because we only

775
00:32:57.660 --> 00:32:58.440
have so many garlic props.

776
00:32:58.500 --> 00:33:00.240
Oh, absolutely, because Terry's an amazing writer.

777
00:33:00.299 --> 00:33:02.339
And so that's how, well, we'll come, perhaps come to that.

778
00:33:02.400 --> 00:33:06.720
But the slither, I think, is an example of a poor choice.

779
00:33:06.779 --> 00:33:09.180
It's like the creature in case of Andrewzani.

780
00:33:09.240 --> 00:33:11.700
The manga beast is in the case of an design, is inserted because

781
00:33:11.700 --> 00:33:13.380
of instruction from John Nathan Turner.

782
00:33:13.440 --> 00:33:14.099
We need a monster.

783
00:33:14.160 --> 00:33:17.400
Placement of the slither in the story suggests that it was a

784
00:33:17.400 --> 00:33:20.700
similar command from the producer saying, or the script editor to

785
00:33:20.700 --> 00:33:22.500
say, we need a monster, which is odd.

786
00:33:22.559 --> 00:33:23.579
I don't think they'd have asked that.

787
00:33:23.640 --> 00:33:24.960
So I don't know why he would have done this.

788
00:33:25.019 --> 00:33:27.480
He's just gotten, he's just realised, oh, it's episode five, we

789
00:33:27.480 --> 00:33:28.079
need something else now.

790
00:33:28.140 --> 00:33:29.400
Yeah, it's just Terry going.

791
00:33:29.460 --> 00:33:30.119
It's episode five.

792
00:33:30.180 --> 00:33:31.859
We need something to fill up the drama.

793
00:33:43.920 --> 00:33:47.579
Let's talk about Terry, and in particular, what he does with the

794
00:33:47.579 --> 00:33:50.940
dialects here, because this is the story that takes the daleks

795
00:33:50.940 --> 00:33:55.619
from being a one off, and it's the 1st time we do a sequel.

796
00:33:55.680 --> 00:33:59.880
It's just about the only sequel in the Heart Mill era. am I

797
00:33:59.880 --> 00:34:00.059
right?

798
00:34:00.119 --> 00:34:02.279
Shall I have the monk coming back if that counts?

799
00:34:02.339 --> 00:34:04.920
Well, yeah, you get the monk coming back and you get the dialects

800
00:34:04.920 --> 00:34:05.880
on their annual thing.

801
00:34:05.940 --> 00:34:07.619
But it's definitely our twice annual thing.

802
00:34:07.680 --> 00:34:08.460
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

803
00:34:08.519 --> 00:34:12.480
It's definitely our 1st sequel is Doctor Who, going to be the kind

804
00:34:12.480 --> 00:34:16.199
of thing that does that, given, you know, the premise, given that

805
00:34:16.199 --> 00:34:19.320
we turn up somewhere different at random every every month.

806
00:34:19.559 --> 00:34:24.360
What does he do to the daleks to make them a going concern outside

807
00:34:24.360 --> 00:34:28.800
of the context of that 1st story that they appear in?

808
00:34:28.860 --> 00:34:30.599
Well, he makes them less interesting.

809
00:34:30.659 --> 00:34:31.500
I would agree.

810
00:34:31.559 --> 00:34:34.380
Because in the Daleks, they've actually got a bit of depth to

811
00:34:34.380 --> 00:34:34.559
them.

812
00:34:34.619 --> 00:34:35.880
They are frightened.

813
00:34:35.940 --> 00:34:36.539
Yes.

814
00:34:36.539 --> 00:34:38.579
They are not refugees.

815
00:34:38.639 --> 00:34:42.780
They are hiding in their city, frightened of the outside world

816
00:34:42.840 --> 00:34:43.739
paranoid.

817
00:34:43.800 --> 00:34:46.019
They are weak, right?

818
00:34:46.079 --> 00:34:49.139
They can only travel on the static electricity floors.

819
00:34:49.199 --> 00:34:50.099
They can't leave the city.

820
00:34:50.159 --> 00:34:55.199
They need to explode the bomb, not to destroy the files. that's a

821
00:34:55.199 --> 00:34:55.739
happy side effect.

822
00:34:55.800 --> 00:34:56.699
To survive.

823
00:34:56.699 --> 00:34:58.440
To survive because they can go outside.

824
00:34:58.500 --> 00:35:00.480
No, because they need another burst of radiation.

825
00:35:00.539 --> 00:35:02.760
Because the reason why they're getting sick is because they've

826
00:35:02.760 --> 00:35:05.820
adapted to radiation and the radiation on Scaro is fading from the

827
00:35:05.820 --> 00:35:06.480
nuclear war.

828
00:35:06.539 --> 00:35:07.320
So that's interesting.

829
00:35:07.380 --> 00:35:12.840
And also, they talk sort of like normal characters might.

830
00:35:12.900 --> 00:35:13.500
Yeah.

831
00:35:13.500 --> 00:35:17.820
I believe someone said, may have been verity, that the worst thing

832
00:35:17.820 --> 00:35:20.820
that happened to Terry Nation was that he heard the Dalek Speck.

833
00:35:20.880 --> 00:35:21.539
Right.

834
00:35:21.599 --> 00:35:25.079
Because suddenly in the Dalek invasion of Earth, Daleks speak much

835
00:35:25.079 --> 00:35:30.719
more slowly, they are much more robotic like that, whereas in

836
00:35:30.719 --> 00:35:33.780
various sequences in the Daleks, they speak at a bit of a slow

837
00:35:33.780 --> 00:35:36.480
pace, but still a relatively normal or more acceptable pace.

838
00:35:36.539 --> 00:35:39.659
The dialogue is also more simplified for the Daleks here.

839
00:35:39.719 --> 00:35:42.119
They become talking robots, even though there's supposed to be a

840
00:35:42.119 --> 00:35:43.739
mutant creature inside, they are just talking robots.

841
00:35:43.800 --> 00:35:46.199
It's not delivering to the audience what Terry wants.

842
00:35:46.260 --> 00:35:49.380
It's delivering what he thinks the audience's expectation of them

843
00:35:49.380 --> 00:35:50.039
is.

844
00:35:50.039 --> 00:35:51.659
Maybe that's what it is.

845
00:35:51.719 --> 00:35:54.420
Yes, I think so, but I also think it's because they've basically

846
00:35:54.420 --> 00:35:55.860
become what Sidney Newman was worried.

847
00:35:55.860 --> 00:35:57.539
They were going to be in the 1st place, which are bug eyed

848
00:35:57.539 --> 00:35:57.900
monsters.

849
00:35:57.960 --> 00:35:59.639
They are just killer robots.

850
00:35:59.699 --> 00:36:01.860
I just felt they weren't the Daleks.

851
00:36:01.920 --> 00:36:05.699
L. Like I sat there going, when did the Daleks become the Daleks

852
00:36:05.699 --> 00:36:06.239
that I know?

853
00:36:06.300 --> 00:36:09.420
And I know the Daleks from Death to the Daleks and Genesis of the

854
00:36:09.420 --> 00:36:11.159
Daleks contestiny, the dialects the most.

855
00:36:11.280 --> 00:36:13.500
When am I getting those daleks?

856
00:36:13.559 --> 00:36:16.679
And I sat through this going, waiting to hear them say exterminate

857
00:36:16.679 --> 00:36:17.340
right?

858
00:36:17.400 --> 00:36:21.659
They say 5 and they say it 5 or 6 times in episode 6 only.

859
00:36:21.900 --> 00:36:23.280
Right?

860
00:36:23.340 --> 00:36:26.639
So up to that point I'm going, they could be anything, right?

861
00:36:26.699 --> 00:36:29.280
And when they have their pieces of dialogue with each other.

862
00:36:29.340 --> 00:36:32.340
Like, yes, terrible. absolutely awful.

863
00:36:32.400 --> 00:36:34.860
And I'm just there going, they are not what they were in the

864
00:36:34.860 --> 00:36:35.519
Daleks.

865
00:36:35.579 --> 00:36:38.460
And they're not what they are in the chase because in the chase

866
00:36:38.460 --> 00:36:40.019
they've got time travel.

867
00:36:40.079 --> 00:36:41.340
They're after the doctor.

868
00:36:41.400 --> 00:36:44.820
It's more like the Daleks that we know are out to exterminate and

869
00:36:44.820 --> 00:36:45.179
get him.

870
00:36:45.239 --> 00:36:47.820
Whereas it's almost like they can do anything according to what

871
00:36:47.820 --> 00:36:48.840
the story demands of them.

872
00:36:48.900 --> 00:36:50.639
Well, that's true.

873
00:36:50.699 --> 00:36:53.400
But here, they don't even know the doctor, right?

874
00:36:53.460 --> 00:36:56.760
So I just was there going, they could be anything.

875
00:36:56.820 --> 00:36:57.960
There could be anything.

876
00:36:58.019 --> 00:36:58.800
They conquerors, though.

877
00:36:58.860 --> 00:36:59.880
They're now conquerors.

878
00:36:59.940 --> 00:37:02.940
And a species which goes off and invades other planets, whereas

879
00:37:02.940 --> 00:37:04.199
they are not that in the Daleks.

880
00:37:04.260 --> 00:37:08.159
And the problem is that to make them an ongoing concern and to

881
00:37:08.159 --> 00:37:11.219
make them an enemy of the doctor, you know, they're the 1st

882
00:37:11.219 --> 00:37:12.360
recurring enemy of the doctor.

883
00:37:12.420 --> 00:37:15.000
They have to change what underpins them.

884
00:37:15.059 --> 00:37:18.059
So no longer are they a Cold War analogy.

885
00:37:18.119 --> 00:37:19.199
They're now Nazis.

886
00:37:19.260 --> 00:37:22.739
They're Nazi storm troopers because you're in decimated London.

887
00:37:22.800 --> 00:37:24.059
Yeah, like occupied London.

888
00:37:24.239 --> 00:37:25.320
Yeah, absolutely.

889
00:37:25.380 --> 00:37:28.619
And so they have to, as Simon said, they have to ditch what made

890
00:37:28.619 --> 00:37:30.420
them interesting and become villains.

891
00:37:30.480 --> 00:37:33.599
They have to be talking about destruction and killing and death

892
00:37:33.599 --> 00:37:35.820
all the time because that's what makes a good monster.

893
00:37:36.059 --> 00:37:40.440
I think the big loss is the thing that you identified, and it's in

894
00:37:40.440 --> 00:37:44.460
the performances of the voice actors, and it's where the Daleks

895
00:37:44.460 --> 00:37:48.059
eventually land, which is that they are slightly hysterical.

896
00:37:48.119 --> 00:37:52.440
You know, when we hear the day of the Daleks Daleks, their voices

897
00:37:52.440 --> 00:37:56.820
are kind of wrong because it's like they've heard the Dalek

898
00:37:56.820 --> 00:37:58.739
invasion of Earth ones.

899
00:37:58.800 --> 00:38:00.119
The pitch is too low, isn't it?

900
00:38:00.179 --> 00:38:04.860
Yeah, but there's not that edge of hysteria, that edge of panic in

901
00:38:04.860 --> 00:38:05.280
their voices.

902
00:38:05.340 --> 00:38:06.000
Yes.

903
00:38:06.000 --> 00:38:08.099
And that's what we eventually land.

904
00:38:08.159 --> 00:38:09.780
And you start getting that in Genesis, actually, is where you

905
00:38:09.780 --> 00:38:11.639
start getting those, or possibly Death of the Daleks.

906
00:38:11.699 --> 00:38:13.380
When Michael wishes starts doing the voices.

907
00:38:13.440 --> 00:38:15.480
But I think that the Daleks properly land.

908
00:38:15.539 --> 00:38:19.440
The Daleks that Todd wants properly land in power of the Daleks

909
00:38:19.440 --> 00:38:21.780
even though they're being sneaky.

910
00:38:21.840 --> 00:38:24.239
It's interesting because I think the Daleks we get in power of the

911
00:38:24.239 --> 00:38:27.420
Daleks are the throwback almost to the original stone.

912
00:38:27.420 --> 00:38:27.719
Oh, yeah.

913
00:38:27.719 --> 00:38:30.420
And I think I think it's the power of the Dalek Staleks that I

914
00:38:30.420 --> 00:38:33.000
want now and we just haven't had since, since then.

915
00:38:33.059 --> 00:38:35.280
That's right, and the power of the Daleks Daleks.

916
00:38:36.059 --> 00:38:41.880
The power Daleks. are absolutely a throwback to the originals and

917
00:38:41.880 --> 00:38:46.199
they have that conversational dialogue that David Whisker gives

918
00:38:46.199 --> 00:38:46.380
them.

919
00:38:46.440 --> 00:38:49.260
And so they say things to each other, and this comes back to the

920
00:38:49.260 --> 00:38:50.880
tempo you were talking about, Nathan.

921
00:38:50.940 --> 00:38:53.579
They say to each other things like, we are not yet ready to teach

922
00:38:53.579 --> 00:38:55.739
these humans the pelore of the dalek.

923
00:38:55.860 --> 00:38:57.420
Yes, and with the rising inflection.

924
00:38:57.420 --> 00:39:02.940
Yeah, it's also the recognition of the doctor.

925
00:39:03.000 --> 00:39:05.460
I mean, the doctor becomes the doctor when the Daleks recognise

926
00:39:05.460 --> 00:39:07.260
the power of the Daleks.

927
00:39:07.320 --> 00:39:08.880
They don't recognise him here.

928
00:39:08.940 --> 00:39:14.039
And he isn't quite there yet either, I think.

929
00:39:14.099 --> 00:39:22.260
And Terry Nation has a big claim to uh, to responsibility for what

930
00:39:22.260 --> 00:39:23.760
the doctor ends up being like.

931
00:39:23.820 --> 00:39:28.679
But he gets Barbara and Ian to be like that, actually, sort of

932
00:39:28.679 --> 00:39:30.059
really rather than the doctor.

933
00:39:30.119 --> 00:39:32.940
So when the doctor gives his big speech to the Daleks in episode

934
00:39:32.940 --> 00:39:33.480
two.

935
00:39:33.539 --> 00:39:37.500
And it's, you know, an iconic moment where he gets to kind of make

936
00:39:37.500 --> 00:39:40.739
fun of them, but he's kind of talking nonsense and none of it

937
00:39:40.739 --> 00:39:41.519
really makes sense.

938
00:39:41.579 --> 00:39:45.960
You know, that baffling line about having to destroy all living

939
00:39:45.960 --> 00:39:47.099
matter and stuff.

940
00:39:47.159 --> 00:39:48.840
It's like I don't...

941
00:39:48.840 --> 00:39:50.099
I don't think that was quite in the screen.

942
00:39:50.400 --> 00:39:52.500
I have something to say about that.

943
00:39:52.559 --> 00:39:52.920
Yeah.

944
00:39:52.980 --> 00:39:57.719
But, but there's the wonderful bits in the end, like in episode

945
00:39:57.719 --> 00:40:02.219
sort of 5 and 6 where Ian is playing with the wires inside the

946
00:40:02.219 --> 00:40:06.300
capsule and stuff where he's improvising with bits of water.

947
00:40:06.360 --> 00:40:07.679
Well he's a science teacher.

948
00:40:07.739 --> 00:40:10.679
But that's also what the doctor ends up doing.

949
00:40:10.739 --> 00:40:12.360
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

950
00:40:12.420 --> 00:40:14.099
And having him sort of slightly panicky.

951
00:40:14.159 --> 00:40:17.519
You know, like he's surrounded by Daleks and he's in that little

952
00:40:17.519 --> 00:40:19.860
thing and all of that is really fun.

953
00:40:19.980 --> 00:40:23.940
And then you've got Barbara, not only giving the Roberman orders

954
00:40:23.940 --> 00:40:29.460
that can't be countermanded, but also her bluffing that she does.

955
00:40:29.519 --> 00:40:32.639
Yes, yes, which she fluffs the line, but it doesn't matter.

956
00:40:32.699 --> 00:40:34.260
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

957
00:40:34.320 --> 00:40:36.599
She just keeps going, but that's super doctor-ish as well.

958
00:40:36.659 --> 00:40:40.739
In fact, you know, that's what Rose does in the Christmas invasion

959
00:40:40.739 --> 00:40:43.260
when the doctor's gone and she's trying to be the doctor.

960
00:40:43.320 --> 00:40:46.679
His makeup a whole heap of stuff out of things that she knows in

961
00:40:46.679 --> 00:40:47.519
order to bluff.

962
00:40:47.579 --> 00:40:50.699
So let's go through Barbara's pockets to find out what's there.

963
00:40:51.179 --> 00:40:56.400
So that sort of thing, that's how we want our heroes and

964
00:40:56.400 --> 00:40:58.260
ultimately the doctor to behave.

965
00:40:58.320 --> 00:41:02.519
That's how he defeats the villains, and we have it happening here

966
00:41:02.519 --> 00:41:04.800
but it's not quite located in the doctor yet.

967
00:41:04.920 --> 00:41:08.579
That line that you mentioned about living matter, I think that's

968
00:41:08.579 --> 00:41:12.539
part of this story's preoccupation with the atom bomb and nuclear

969
00:41:12.539 --> 00:41:13.199
destruction.

970
00:41:13.260 --> 00:41:16.380
I think that's a remnant of that because later on the doctor says

971
00:41:16.380 --> 00:41:20.820
they dare to tamper with the forces of creation, which is all

972
00:41:20.820 --> 00:41:24.360
clearly informed by that kind of Cold War phobia of what's going

973
00:41:24.360 --> 00:41:24.840
to happen.

974
00:41:24.900 --> 00:41:27.960
And of course, this is only 5 years removed from on the beach.

975
00:41:28.019 --> 00:41:28.980
Yeah, yeah.

976
00:41:28.980 --> 00:41:32.340
And Terry must have seen that film and drawn inspiration from that

977
00:41:32.340 --> 00:41:33.840
for the Daleks.

978
00:41:33.900 --> 00:41:36.780
And going back to what we were saying about the Daleks in that

979
00:41:36.780 --> 00:41:39.059
iteration of their, in their 1st story.

980
00:41:39.119 --> 00:41:42.420
It's so sad that you actually had a little bit of sympathy for the

981
00:41:42.420 --> 00:41:45.300
Daleks in that story, which has now completely vanished because

982
00:41:45.300 --> 00:41:48.960
they've gone from wanting to survive to wanting to conquer.

983
00:41:49.019 --> 00:41:51.719
They've gone from wanting to exist, to wanting to kill.

984
00:41:51.780 --> 00:41:55.800
And so everything that made them special and interesting has kind

985
00:41:55.800 --> 00:41:56.579
of been stripped back.

986
00:41:56.639 --> 00:42:00.300
And what you're left with is the incredible design and the

987
00:42:00.300 --> 00:42:01.079
incredible voice.

988
00:42:01.139 --> 00:42:04.139
That is what is now iconic about the Daleks rather than the idea

989
00:42:04.139 --> 00:42:04.679
behind them.

990
00:42:04.739 --> 00:42:08.159
And to go back to what we were saying about the location filming

991
00:42:08.159 --> 00:42:12.239
taking them out of that city removes a lot of what made them

992
00:42:12.239 --> 00:42:16.079
interesting and special. putting them on location dwarfed by

993
00:42:16.079 --> 00:42:17.340
buildings and things like that.

994
00:42:17.400 --> 00:42:20.340
All you've got to hang onto is that iconic design.

995
00:42:20.400 --> 00:42:25.139
I think, though, that those scenes are great, you know, and Terry

996
00:42:25.139 --> 00:42:29.940
is right, I think, to set it in London, where most of the audience

997
00:42:29.940 --> 00:42:34.079
are or much of the audience is, because...

998
00:42:34.139 --> 00:42:34.800
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

999
00:42:34.860 --> 00:42:36.900
And it's, it's, yeah.

1000
00:42:37.260 --> 00:42:39.059
But it's also kind of shocking.

1001
00:42:39.119 --> 00:42:42.119
Like that, you know, it's not the planet Zog.

1002
00:42:42.239 --> 00:42:45.840
Yes, it is Earth. and the Daleks have invaded Earth, and this is

1003
00:42:45.840 --> 00:42:49.199
where the show takes a turn and never looks back.

1004
00:42:49.260 --> 00:42:52.500
And a lot of the stories we have after this are just basically

1005
00:42:52.500 --> 00:42:57.000
waiting to be made and shown until we get to what Doctor Who

1006
00:42:57.000 --> 00:42:59.340
really is about, which is stuff like this.

1007
00:42:59.400 --> 00:43:02.159
As you say, the Dalek's more interesting, the 1st story, because

1008
00:43:02.159 --> 00:43:04.980
there's something about them, which you might find sympathy for

1009
00:43:04.980 --> 00:43:05.219
right?

1010
00:43:05.280 --> 00:43:06.119
Their predicament.

1011
00:43:06.179 --> 00:43:09.360
And remember, they didn't want the bug eyed monsters.

1012
00:43:09.420 --> 00:43:11.400
They wanted it to be much more high concept.

1013
00:43:11.400 --> 00:43:15.900
So all of the science fiction-y stories are all nothing like we

1014
00:43:15.900 --> 00:43:17.579
have now, the Sensorites.

1015
00:43:17.639 --> 00:43:19.860
You would never have anything remotely like that now.

1016
00:43:19.920 --> 00:43:23.880
You would never have anything like the space museum.

1017
00:43:23.940 --> 00:43:26.400
You would never have anything like the web planet, unfortunately.

1018
00:43:26.460 --> 00:43:29.219
And then you have, obviously, the historical sort of dotted

1019
00:43:29.219 --> 00:43:31.679
through, which are all supposed to be sort of, you know, factual

1020
00:43:31.679 --> 00:43:33.420
and educational and so on like that.

1021
00:43:33.480 --> 00:43:36.059
With Dalek Invasion of Earth, and you get it a little bit with

1022
00:43:36.059 --> 00:43:38.760
Keys of Mariners, but you get it properly from Dalek Invasion of

1023
00:43:38.760 --> 00:43:42.480
Earth, you get the idea of the alien invasion, the alien menace

1024
00:43:42.480 --> 00:43:45.360
whether it's threatening Earth or another colony somewhere else

1025
00:43:45.360 --> 00:43:46.500
it's the same principle.

1026
00:43:46.559 --> 00:43:50.460
And therefore, you have a story of good versus bad.

1027
00:43:50.519 --> 00:43:51.719
There's no shades of grey.

1028
00:43:51.780 --> 00:43:53.519
You just, you're with us or you're against us.

1029
00:43:53.579 --> 00:43:55.860
And as we move through to the rest of the heart and ear and get

1030
00:43:55.860 --> 00:43:57.960
into the trout in the era, that's when you start to get from like

1031
00:43:57.960 --> 00:44:01.079
the war machines on, that's where you start to get that pattern.

1032
00:44:01.139 --> 00:44:04.679
It's that speech of Troughton about things that the universe is

1033
00:44:04.679 --> 00:44:06.780
bred, you know.

1034
00:44:06.840 --> 00:44:07.739
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1035
00:44:07.800 --> 00:44:10.079
But that is, we're heading towards that.

1036
00:44:10.139 --> 00:44:12.840
And also, and we did get it a little bit with Planet of Giants

1037
00:44:12.840 --> 00:44:14.579
because they decide that they need to do something about this

1038
00:44:14.579 --> 00:44:16.019
insecticide.

1039
00:44:16.079 --> 00:44:18.900
But in Dialect Conversions of Earth, you get the doctor actually

1040
00:44:18.900 --> 00:44:21.780
saying, it's time we put out our witch together and defeat.

1041
00:44:21.900 --> 00:44:24.360
Yes, in that very speech when the Daleks say, oh, you know, we're

1042
00:44:24.360 --> 00:44:25.079
in charge of the earth.

1043
00:44:25.139 --> 00:44:26.219
Doctors goes, not for long.

1044
00:44:26.280 --> 00:44:26.820
Yes.

1045
00:44:26.880 --> 00:44:30.480
Now that, again, and I know that the TARDIS is covered with fallen

1046
00:44:30.480 --> 00:44:33.840
bridge and so on, but nevertheless, we've now moved Styrofoam to

1047
00:44:33.840 --> 00:44:34.019
me.

1048
00:44:34.320 --> 00:44:36.539
Fallen Styrofoam.

1049
00:44:36.599 --> 00:44:37.260
Perhaps I have.

1050
00:44:37.260 --> 00:44:38.099
There's some balsa wood.

1051
00:44:38.159 --> 00:44:39.480
Exactly.

1052
00:44:39.539 --> 00:44:41.760
There's a plank that's carried.

1053
00:44:41.820 --> 00:44:45.000
But the point is that we've moved to a thing where the TARDIS

1054
00:44:45.000 --> 00:44:47.159
arrives somewhere and makes the world a better place.

1055
00:44:47.219 --> 00:44:51.059
And that's what carries the show then forward for the next 60

1056
00:44:51.059 --> 00:44:51.360
years.

1057
00:44:51.420 --> 00:44:52.619
But we're not quite there.

1058
00:44:53.280 --> 00:44:55.559
No we're not quite there yet, but this becomes the template.

1059
00:44:55.679 --> 00:44:59.159
Even if you've still got a lot of other stuff between now.

1060
00:44:59.219 --> 00:45:00.480
Galaxy four, for instance.

1061
00:45:00.539 --> 00:45:01.679
You'd never make Galaxy 4 now.

1062
00:45:01.739 --> 00:45:02.219
You know what I mean?

1063
00:45:02.280 --> 00:45:06.599
This is, of course, a hugely influential and consequential story

1064
00:45:06.599 --> 00:45:08.039
going forward for many reasons.

1065
00:45:08.099 --> 00:45:11.219
The location work that we talked about, the fact that it's the 1st

1066
00:45:11.219 --> 00:45:15.179
returning monster, all of those factors, but what it is incredible

1067
00:45:15.179 --> 00:45:16.260
for is what Simon said.

1068
00:45:16.320 --> 00:45:19.920
This is Terry Nation, looking at the show's format and adding

1069
00:45:19.920 --> 00:45:24.239
adventure to it, the sense rights is, I love the sense rights on

1070
00:45:24.239 --> 00:45:24.659
many levels.

1071
00:45:24.719 --> 00:45:25.739
It's not about adventure.

1072
00:45:25.800 --> 00:45:27.119
It's a cerebral story.

1073
00:45:27.179 --> 00:45:30.420
So there is a huge argument to be made, that terry nation creates

1074
00:45:30.420 --> 00:45:34.440
the modern Doctor Who story in the Daleks, and then refines it

1075
00:45:34.440 --> 00:45:37.559
here to be the archetypal Doctor Who story, which is the Aean

1076
00:45:37.559 --> 00:45:38.099
invasion.

1077
00:45:38.159 --> 00:45:43.860
And I think, too, that there's the kind of the linearity of the

1078
00:45:43.860 --> 00:45:49.500
plot as well that it is all about splitting us up into 3 groups

1079
00:45:49.500 --> 00:45:53.099
and having those 3 groups all go to Bedfordshire and then meet up

1080
00:45:53.099 --> 00:45:53.400
again.

1081
00:45:53.460 --> 00:45:54.239
At the Wooden Hill.

1082
00:45:54.300 --> 00:45:55.860
Do you know what I mean?

1083
00:45:55.920 --> 00:45:57.840
And then and then we resolve the thing.

1084
00:45:57.960 --> 00:46:01.019
And we don't have to be particularly clever to resolve the thing

1085
00:46:01.019 --> 00:46:01.320
or anything.

1086
00:46:01.380 --> 00:46:03.420
Can I also say there's something about the structure of the story

1087
00:46:03.420 --> 00:46:05.760
and we'll, I mean, we're probably starting to talk about Terry

1088
00:46:05.760 --> 00:46:07.199
Nation as a writer now as well.

1089
00:46:07.260 --> 00:46:10.739
But the other thing is that the structure of the story is what

1090
00:46:10.739 --> 00:46:13.019
20th century doctor who becomes, because it's changed now because

1091
00:46:13.019 --> 00:46:16.019
of the single episode format, but back in the day, whether it was

1092
00:46:16.019 --> 00:46:20.280
4 or 6 episodes or thereabouts, you often had the initial setup, an

1093
00:46:20.280 --> 00:46:22.980
initial, some kind of attack or getting into where the, where the

1094
00:46:22.980 --> 00:46:27.659
alien menace is and doing stuff, failing, retreating, coming

1095
00:46:27.659 --> 00:46:30.719
together again, and then being split up and so on, and then going

1096
00:46:30.719 --> 00:46:32.699
back and destroying them for a 2nd time.

1097
00:46:32.760 --> 00:46:35.460
And that's how you create the arc that makes a 4 or 6 part story.

1098
00:46:35.519 --> 00:46:40.559
But one important thing that good classic Doctor Who does is a

1099
00:46:40.559 --> 00:46:43.559
point in the story where we realise that things are not quite what

1100
00:46:43.559 --> 00:46:45.960
they seem and they're actually somewhat worse.

1101
00:46:46.019 --> 00:46:47.579
That never comes here.

1102
00:46:47.639 --> 00:46:49.260
We have...

1103
00:46:49.320 --> 00:46:49.619
No, no.

1104
00:46:49.679 --> 00:46:52.260
That's something I think is developed more as we pet into the

1105
00:46:52.260 --> 00:46:53.099
70s.

1106
00:46:53.579 --> 00:46:55.079
It's shame matures further.

1107
00:46:55.139 --> 00:46:59.039
It's not something that Terry does, despite the somewhere on this

1108
00:46:59.039 --> 00:47:00.719
planet, there are $10,000.

1109
00:47:01.260 --> 00:47:02.940
That's not quite what you have. by that name.

1110
00:47:03.000 --> 00:47:05.099
He never really, really quite...

1111
00:47:05.159 --> 00:47:07.380
On the contrary, we were told there are very few daleks.

1112
00:47:07.380 --> 00:47:09.360
Just about six.

1113
00:47:09.420 --> 00:47:16.619
Oh, no, they have some cardboard ones at a helicopter.

1114
00:47:18.659 --> 00:47:23.760
I think that where Terry's genius comes in with Doctor Who is that

1115
00:47:23.760 --> 00:47:25.260
he plunders the right material.

1116
00:47:25.260 --> 00:47:28.860
What he's looking at is things like Day of the Triffords. stuff

1117
00:47:28.860 --> 00:47:29.340
like that.

1118
00:47:29.400 --> 00:47:31.679
And he shamelessly takes stuff like that and sees that the

1119
00:47:31.679 --> 00:47:33.480
documentary format will work well with this stuff.

1120
00:47:33.539 --> 00:47:34.679
So is that written before?

1121
00:47:34.739 --> 00:47:35.760
Yeah, 1951.

1122
00:47:35.880 --> 00:47:36.420
That's 50s.

1123
00:47:36.480 --> 00:47:37.079
I've got it.

1124
00:47:37.139 --> 00:47:39.239
Yeah, it's much earlier than you think, despite, you know, Joe

1125
00:47:39.239 --> 00:47:40.199
Sellers backstory.

1126
00:47:40.260 --> 00:47:42.360
Even things like War of the World.

1127
00:47:42.420 --> 00:47:43.980
Yeah, going back to HG Wells.

1128
00:47:44.099 --> 00:47:46.559
What he understands is the power of spectacle.

1129
00:47:46.619 --> 00:47:47.579
Yeah.

1130
00:47:47.579 --> 00:47:50.400
And he introduces spectacle to Doctor Who.

1131
00:47:50.460 --> 00:47:52.800
And, you know, they do try it again later on, like I think Web

1132
00:47:52.800 --> 00:47:55.019
Planet, in its own way, is trying for sceptical.

1133
00:47:55.079 --> 00:47:58.500
But the reason that the Dalek Invasion Earth, these episodes live

1134
00:47:58.500 --> 00:48:01.980
on in the public consciousness and did for like decades afterwards

1135
00:48:01.980 --> 00:48:05.940
is not how good the story is or how well it was produced.

1136
00:48:06.000 --> 00:48:10.739
It's the power of that imagery of the Daleks in Central London and

1137
00:48:10.739 --> 00:48:15.239
a broken down London with people on the streets scurrying away.

1138
00:48:15.360 --> 00:48:16.500
I think that's so important.

1139
00:48:16.559 --> 00:48:18.960
Like as classic Doctor Who fans.

1140
00:48:19.019 --> 00:48:22.679
We have a tendency to think that spectacle is meretricious because

1141
00:48:22.679 --> 00:48:26.639
Doctor Who tends to do it badly because it can't really afford

1142
00:48:26.639 --> 00:48:27.059
it.

1143
00:48:27.119 --> 00:48:31.559
But of course, the thing that everyone remembers the moments of

1144
00:48:31.559 --> 00:48:34.679
spectacle, the giant maggots and stuff like that.

1145
00:48:34.739 --> 00:48:35.820
If I can push back on that.

1146
00:48:35.880 --> 00:48:38.219
It's not spectacles, we might understand it in the 21st century

1147
00:48:38.219 --> 00:48:38.940
sense with the show.

1148
00:48:39.000 --> 00:48:42.059
It's spectacle in terms of powerful images, which is not really

1149
00:48:42.059 --> 00:48:43.260
spectacle in the same way.

1150
00:48:43.320 --> 00:48:46.079
It's a very powerful image.

1151
00:48:46.139 --> 00:48:46.980
Yes, exactly.

1152
00:48:47.039 --> 00:48:48.179
It's Sutech.

1153
00:48:48.239 --> 00:48:49.679
It's the mummies, it's whatever, you know.

1154
00:48:49.679 --> 00:48:52.860
But I think it's also things like that shot of Nord, Vandal of the

1155
00:48:52.860 --> 00:48:55.320
Roads heading off and the big planet and things in the

1156
00:48:55.320 --> 00:48:55.679
background.

1157
00:48:55.739 --> 00:48:59.039
You know, the images that you see nowhere else.

1158
00:48:59.099 --> 00:49:02.519
And I think, you know, it's television and visions right in the

1159
00:49:02.519 --> 00:49:02.760
word.

1160
00:49:02.820 --> 00:49:06.119
Yes, but it's the end of episode one of the Daleks.

1161
00:49:06.179 --> 00:49:08.280
Yeah, yeah, it's that that's different.

1162
00:49:08.340 --> 00:49:09.719
So what I'm saying?

1163
00:49:09.780 --> 00:49:10.440
not big budget.

1164
00:49:10.500 --> 00:49:12.719
It's just beautifully, beautifully been forced.

1165
00:49:12.780 --> 00:49:14.940
I don't think it has to be a big budget and they're clearly

1166
00:49:14.940 --> 00:49:17.940
attempting it in episode 6 with their series of stock footage of

1167
00:49:17.940 --> 00:49:19.980
you know, mud falling into rivers and stuff.

1168
00:49:20.039 --> 00:49:21.960
Yes. to kind of achieve the...

1169
00:49:21.960 --> 00:49:23.159
I think some of that's supposed to be volcanic.

1170
00:49:23.219 --> 00:49:25.019
It's difficult to celebrate away.

1171
00:49:25.079 --> 00:49:28.860
I'm very surprised we didn't get those stock shots from info.

1172
00:49:28.920 --> 00:49:30.360
Yeah, same ones.

1173
00:49:30.360 --> 00:49:31.500
Maybe that hadn't happened yet.

1174
00:49:31.559 --> 00:49:33.539
I thought they were very similar, but it's interesting what you

1175
00:49:33.539 --> 00:49:35.460
were talking about here because as I was watching this, I was

1176
00:49:35.460 --> 00:49:38.039
going, how are the Daleks?

1177
00:49:38.099 --> 00:49:40.980
How did they become this cultural icon when I'm looking at this?

1178
00:49:41.039 --> 00:49:41.760
Yeah, yeah.

1179
00:49:41.760 --> 00:49:46.500
And the only thing that I am latching onto is the imagery from

1180
00:49:46.500 --> 00:49:50.039
coming out of the water, from being around London, not by being

1181
00:49:50.039 --> 00:49:52.920
the Daleks themselves, because they are, can I just say it, pretty

1182
00:49:52.920 --> 00:49:56.039
crap through most of this and going back to episode six, the

1183
00:49:56.039 --> 00:49:58.260
exterminator exterminator is only in that episode.

1184
00:49:58.380 --> 00:50:01.619
So to me, I was just there saying, when did the Daleks become the

1185
00:50:01.619 --> 00:50:04.739
dialects, why are they suddenly a cultural phenomenon at this

1186
00:50:04.739 --> 00:50:05.039
point?

1187
00:50:05.099 --> 00:50:07.980
Because, like, why would kids be going around saying exterminates

1188
00:50:07.980 --> 00:50:08.340
terminate?

1189
00:50:08.400 --> 00:50:10.019
Because they don't say it much in the Daleks either?

1190
00:50:10.079 --> 00:50:12.059
Okay, so when's the 1st film out?

1191
00:50:12.119 --> 00:50:15.119
The 1st film is not released until after the chase.

1192
00:50:15.239 --> 00:50:16.739
Oh, gosh, LA.

1193
00:50:16.800 --> 00:50:18.480
Yes, August 65.

1194
00:50:18.659 --> 00:50:19.440
Right, right.

1195
00:50:19.500 --> 00:50:22.199
Because I was going to say that I think they become a success

1196
00:50:22.199 --> 00:50:22.860
before the film.

1197
00:50:22.980 --> 00:50:25.860
I was going to say it's boosted by the film, which obviously it

1198
00:50:25.860 --> 00:50:26.039
is.

1199
00:50:26.099 --> 00:50:28.079
Well, there's only a film because they're already a success.

1200
00:50:28.139 --> 00:50:30.300
Yeah, I know. and obviously things take time in production and so

1201
00:50:30.300 --> 00:50:30.659
on like that.

1202
00:50:30.719 --> 00:50:33.300
But I thought my memory for some reason thought that, well, memory

1203
00:50:33.300 --> 00:50:35.940
we weren't alive, but I thought that it came out sometime between

1204
00:50:35.940 --> 00:50:37.380
Darlic Invasion of Earth and the Jazz.

1205
00:50:37.440 --> 00:50:39.719
Phil might have boosted the ratings for, I don't know, Galaxy 4.

1206
00:50:39.900 --> 00:50:40.679
For example.

1207
00:50:41.159 --> 00:50:45.780
But the Dalek props in the original story are better than the

1208
00:50:45.780 --> 00:50:46.500
Dalek crops here.

1209
00:50:46.559 --> 00:50:48.960
And they are shot much better by Christopher Barry.

1210
00:50:49.019 --> 00:50:51.780
Which helps, but they are definitely more Now I don't know, did

1211
00:50:51.780 --> 00:50:53.699
they lose them slash destroy them after the 1st story or?

1212
00:50:54.179 --> 00:50:55.559
So what happened was they kept two?

1213
00:50:55.619 --> 00:51:00.000
They donated 2 to Dr. Bernardo's and then had to borrow them back

1214
00:51:00.719 --> 00:51:02.219
presumably refurbished them.

1215
00:51:02.280 --> 00:51:04.920
And then they created 2 new ones and then they put them up on

1216
00:51:04.920 --> 00:51:06.960
those big sort of to hide the three.

1217
00:51:06.960 --> 00:51:07.980
According to the rubbery wheels.

1218
00:51:08.039 --> 00:51:09.179
Doctor Who Technical manually.

1219
00:51:09.239 --> 00:51:09.780
Sorry, call that.

1220
00:51:09.840 --> 00:51:14.820
Yeah, so like, so this is December 64, The chase is made June 65

1221
00:51:14.820 --> 00:51:17.760
and the movie, the 1st movie is August 65, right?

1222
00:51:17.820 --> 00:51:18.360
Okay.

1223
00:51:18.420 --> 00:51:21.059
But anyway, it is the imagery, it's the iconography.

1224
00:51:21.119 --> 00:51:21.719
You're right.

1225
00:51:21.780 --> 00:51:24.179
But remember, this is a small screen.

1226
00:51:24.239 --> 00:51:26.159
You know, I don't know how big it's 11 inches.

1227
00:51:26.219 --> 00:51:29.340
Yeah, yeah, tiny screens. imperfect reception.

1228
00:51:29.400 --> 00:51:30.480
You're seeing these things.

1229
00:51:30.539 --> 00:51:33.719
You've got the radio times cover there with a dalek on it.

1230
00:51:33.780 --> 00:51:36.840
You've already got Daleks and comics and stuff by now, do you?

1231
00:51:36.900 --> 00:51:40.199
So it's sort of that thing that it feeds on itself thanks to all

1232
00:51:40.199 --> 00:51:42.360
that and, you know, if they're Daleks on the back of cereal

1233
00:51:42.360 --> 00:51:43.320
packets and so on like that.

1234
00:51:43.380 --> 00:51:46.139
In some respects, all that stuff is more important than them

1235
00:51:46.139 --> 00:51:47.099
actually being on television.

1236
00:51:47.159 --> 00:51:48.360
Well, yeah, interestingly.

1237
00:51:48.420 --> 00:51:50.639
Only on television for a few weeks a year.

1238
00:51:50.699 --> 00:51:53.699
Yeah, it's almost like it exists just to keep the public interest

1239
00:51:53.699 --> 00:51:55.260
up rather than being the source of it.

1240
00:51:55.320 --> 00:51:55.800
Yes.

1241
00:51:55.800 --> 00:51:58.380
And if you're going to remember an episode, You're probably going

1242
00:51:58.380 --> 00:52:00.840
to remember the dialogue more from the last episode than the

1243
00:52:00.840 --> 00:52:03.719
previous ones and they're saying exterminate in the last episode

1244
00:52:03.719 --> 00:52:04.800
but not in the previous five.

1245
00:52:04.860 --> 00:52:07.679
It goes back to what I was saying, that the power of the dialect

1246
00:52:07.679 --> 00:52:11.099
such as it is right now, is in their incredible design.

1247
00:52:11.159 --> 00:52:12.179
It's in this story.

1248
00:52:12.239 --> 00:52:14.940
It's not about how they're placed in the frames, not about the way

1249
00:52:14.940 --> 00:52:15.480
they're shot.

1250
00:52:15.539 --> 00:52:17.940
It's not about the way that on that small screen you're talking

1251
00:52:17.940 --> 00:52:18.840
about, people are watching.

1252
00:52:18.900 --> 00:52:21.719
They're a little bit lost sometimes in that location for you.

1253
00:52:21.780 --> 00:52:23.760
Oh, and I was also going to say on the small screen.

1254
00:52:23.820 --> 00:52:25.199
Are there other people in the room?

1255
00:52:25.260 --> 00:52:27.000
Is granny over talking to your mother?

1256
00:52:27.059 --> 00:52:29.579
Yeah, you're not able to actually hear it properly.

1257
00:52:29.639 --> 00:52:31.139
Mum dishing up your baked beans.

1258
00:52:31.199 --> 00:52:31.739
Exactly.

1259
00:52:31.800 --> 00:52:35.340
Or the clanking of cutlery in... saying, shut up. recording it.

1260
00:52:35.519 --> 00:52:36.960
Yes.

1261
00:52:37.019 --> 00:52:40.679
But I think you would have said it more forcefully than that.

1262
00:52:40.739 --> 00:52:42.900
He would have taken that mallet.

1263
00:52:43.440 --> 00:52:48.179
But therein, again, lies the genius of Terry because if you just

1264
00:52:48.179 --> 00:52:50.699
had the imagery, that would be one thing.

1265
00:52:50.760 --> 00:52:53.880
But what he does is marry it to high stakes peril.

1266
00:52:53.940 --> 00:52:58.199
And so beforehand, and I think very few times since, has the

1267
00:52:58.199 --> 00:53:00.420
doctor and his companions ever been in such a desperate

1268
00:53:00.420 --> 00:53:00.780
situation?

1269
00:53:01.500 --> 00:53:03.119
Yeah, probably.

1270
00:53:03.179 --> 00:53:05.519
Well, the whole world is the world has been taken over.

1271
00:53:05.579 --> 00:53:06.599
Yes.

1272
00:53:06.599 --> 00:53:07.619
They've arrived after the fact.

1273
00:53:07.679 --> 00:53:08.579
Yes.

1274
00:53:15.239 --> 00:53:19.199
On Terry, I don't know whether it's a revisionist thing that was

1275
00:53:19.199 --> 00:53:21.059
sort of regarding him as a great writer, and obviously he's a

1276
00:53:21.059 --> 00:53:21.539
great writer.

1277
00:53:21.599 --> 00:53:23.039
You know, he created the Daleks.

1278
00:53:23.099 --> 00:53:24.539
He's written so much television.

1279
00:53:24.599 --> 00:53:26.699
He wrote bounty, for instance.

1280
00:53:26.760 --> 00:53:27.539
I mean yeah.

1281
00:53:28.800 --> 00:53:31.380
I'm not saying he's not capable of good work.

1282
00:53:31.440 --> 00:53:32.579
I think he is capable of work.

1283
00:53:32.639 --> 00:53:36.239
I think if I can sort of describe him as a workman-like writer

1284
00:53:36.239 --> 00:53:41.400
it's people who regard whether they regard writing as an art or a

1285
00:53:41.400 --> 00:53:44.820
craft and he is a craftsman, not an artist.

1286
00:53:44.880 --> 00:53:48.119
The artists will produce far less stuff, which might be much

1287
00:53:48.119 --> 00:53:49.980
better, but it'll be less frequent.

1288
00:53:50.039 --> 00:53:52.440
And hearing you say that right now, it makes me wonder if there

1289
00:53:52.440 --> 00:53:55.800
wasn't method to verities madness in that she married the

1290
00:53:55.800 --> 00:53:59.880
craftsman writer to the self-styled artist director to see what

1291
00:53:59.880 --> 00:54:00.239
would happen.

1292
00:54:00.360 --> 00:54:01.679
Possibly.

1293
00:54:01.739 --> 00:54:03.599
I think maybe that's a stretch too far.

1294
00:54:03.659 --> 00:54:04.619
We don't really know.

1295
00:54:04.679 --> 00:54:10.380
But what Terry does is he does take traditional, standard ways of

1296
00:54:10.380 --> 00:54:11.099
storytelling.

1297
00:54:11.159 --> 00:54:13.920
He never needs to try to do something which is unusual or

1298
00:54:13.920 --> 00:54:14.280
different.

1299
00:54:14.340 --> 00:54:18.119
He needs to get the story from A to B, to C, and he uses fairly

1300
00:54:18.119 --> 00:54:21.840
standard tropes for a better word or cliches even to get you

1301
00:54:21.840 --> 00:54:22.139
there.

1302
00:54:22.199 --> 00:54:25.679
And that can often work so well because what you get is you get a

1303
00:54:25.679 --> 00:54:27.179
proper sense of balanced story.

1304
00:54:27.239 --> 00:54:27.780
Absolutely.

1305
00:54:27.780 --> 00:54:31.380
Now, this story sags, episode 4 is completely unnecessary.

1306
00:54:31.440 --> 00:54:34.860
Production also seems to fall further apart.

1307
00:54:34.860 --> 00:54:35.639
For further apart.

1308
00:54:35.699 --> 00:54:38.699
I mean, that's bafflingly bad, isn't it?

1309
00:54:38.760 --> 00:54:40.380
We don't have Bill that week.

1310
00:54:40.440 --> 00:54:43.440
And so we're going to leave him behind and then go back for him.

1311
00:54:43.500 --> 00:54:44.460
So what are we doing?

1312
00:54:44.519 --> 00:54:46.320
You know, like it just makes sense.

1313
00:54:46.380 --> 00:54:48.119
Are they just leaving you under a bush for the allegations?

1314
00:54:48.179 --> 00:54:51.179
They're just little things like Susan spraying her ankle in that

1315
00:54:51.179 --> 00:54:53.039
initial sequence when the...

1316
00:54:53.039 --> 00:54:56.039
The only time apart from Susan again, the five doctors.

1317
00:54:56.099 --> 00:54:56.940
Yeah.

1318
00:54:57.000 --> 00:55:00.300
But the point is, you know, that needs to happen so that Barbara

1319
00:55:00.300 --> 00:55:02.880
can go down to the river so that, you know, it splits them up.

1320
00:55:02.940 --> 00:55:06.420
It's just a method of getting you from A to B. and he doesn't he

1321
00:55:06.420 --> 00:55:09.599
doesn't sit there in front of his typewriter agonising about, oh

1322
00:55:09.599 --> 00:55:10.440
what's the best way of doing?

1323
00:55:10.500 --> 00:55:12.360
He just says, oh, she can just sprain her ankle and we'll move

1324
00:55:12.360 --> 00:55:12.539
on.

1325
00:55:12.599 --> 00:55:13.860
Now, that's not a criticism.

1326
00:55:13.920 --> 00:55:14.699
It doesn't muck about.

1327
00:55:14.760 --> 00:55:16.320
Yeah, it's not a criticism.

1328
00:55:16.380 --> 00:55:17.159
It's an observation.

1329
00:55:17.219 --> 00:55:20.219
And that's why I think he, that's why he was a successful

1330
00:55:20.219 --> 00:55:22.619
television writer because he was able to keep churning them out.

1331
00:55:22.739 --> 00:55:26.519
But that's why he is able to develop Doctor Who's format because

1332
00:55:26.519 --> 00:55:28.679
it is clear and followable.

1333
00:55:28.739 --> 00:55:29.880
His stories.

1334
00:55:29.940 --> 00:55:31.380
I said this to Simon.

1335
00:55:31.380 --> 00:55:32.099
They're unpretentious.

1336
00:55:32.159 --> 00:55:33.719
They are definitely unpretentious.

1337
00:55:33.780 --> 00:55:37.139
And if you look at the Hartnell science fiction stories.

1338
00:55:37.199 --> 00:55:39.599
There is a strong argument from you that Terry is the only

1339
00:55:39.599 --> 00:55:42.659
successful writer of Heartnell science fiction.

1340
00:55:42.719 --> 00:55:45.960
There are other good, interesting ideas that don't quite work.

1341
00:55:46.019 --> 00:55:49.199
It's the Terry Nation stories that people remember from the 1960s

1342
00:55:49.199 --> 00:55:50.940
as Doctor Who's sci-fi.

1343
00:55:51.000 --> 00:55:53.940
But that's because they're the Doctor Who stories that we can now

1344
00:55:53.940 --> 00:55:56.940
more easily recognise in the modern day, and in certainly what the

1345
00:55:56.940 --> 00:55:59.340
shape becomes in the 70s and 80s, whereas the other science

1346
00:55:59.340 --> 00:56:01.920
fiction stories, as I was saying earlier, are completely different

1347
00:56:01.920 --> 00:56:03.059
to what we...

1348
00:56:03.179 --> 00:56:04.920
Strange little cul-de-sacs, like the sound.

1349
00:56:04.980 --> 00:56:07.019
Yeah, and in fact, speaking about Richard Martin, I do wonder

1350
00:56:07.019 --> 00:56:09.599
whether if he was directing something like the Censor rights or

1351
00:56:09.599 --> 00:56:12.360
the Space Museum, that might have been a good vehicle for his

1352
00:56:12.360 --> 00:56:13.500
talents to have that kind of thing.

1353
00:56:13.800 --> 00:56:16.079
They're not brilliantly directed either, though.

1354
00:56:16.139 --> 00:56:16.980
No, they're not.

1355
00:56:17.039 --> 00:56:19.260
And so maybe he might have improved on because I just think the

1356
00:56:19.260 --> 00:56:22.260
way that he approached Doctor Who would have worked for kind of a

1357
00:56:22.260 --> 00:56:26.099
small scale, interesting, slightly left field idea, like space

1358
00:56:26.099 --> 00:56:28.679
museum rather than this big action adventure.

1359
00:56:29.099 --> 00:56:34.440
The other thing, just by way of ending talking about Terry, is

1360
00:56:34.440 --> 00:56:39.539
that we have been dulled over the decades since to just how

1361
00:56:39.539 --> 00:56:41.760
imaginative the leaps he took were.

1362
00:56:41.820 --> 00:56:44.880
So when they come to him and say, we want to have the Daleks back

1363
00:56:44.880 --> 00:56:48.480
he doesn't say, okay, I'll formulate a return to Scaro to see

1364
00:56:48.480 --> 00:56:49.619
what's happening as well.

1365
00:56:49.679 --> 00:56:51.360
He says, okay, we'll bring them back.

1366
00:56:51.420 --> 00:56:52.739
We're going to go even bigger.

1367
00:56:52.800 --> 00:56:54.239
They're going to invade the earth.

1368
00:56:54.300 --> 00:56:57.780
Okay, does he or does verity say, and or David Whittaker say

1369
00:56:57.780 --> 00:56:58.260
that's what we want?

1370
00:56:58.320 --> 00:57:01.139
I think maybe it's Terry because that feels like exactly the kind

1371
00:57:01.139 --> 00:57:01.860
of thing he would do.

1372
00:57:01.920 --> 00:57:07.739
Certainly, it ends up playing into his strengths and he will go on

1373
00:57:07.739 --> 00:57:13.320
to create an entire series based on the premise here in Survivors

1374
00:57:13.320 --> 00:57:17.460
where he investigates what happens when human society falls to

1375
00:57:17.460 --> 00:57:20.519
pieces and they're only middle class white people left.

1376
00:57:20.760 --> 00:57:25.739
So it would be a weird coincidence if it had been verity

1377
00:57:25.739 --> 00:57:27.239
introducing him to that idea.

1378
00:57:27.300 --> 00:57:30.360
It does sound more like something that's bubbling away, something

1379
00:57:30.360 --> 00:57:32.219
that he's interested in.

1380
00:57:32.280 --> 00:57:32.639
Absolutely.

1381
00:57:32.699 --> 00:57:36.599
And it's actually a little bit gobsmacking to think that within

1382
00:57:36.599 --> 00:57:40.199
most people's living memory watching this, the blitz would have

1383
00:57:40.199 --> 00:57:40.739
been a thing.

1384
00:57:40.800 --> 00:57:44.039
And he goes right there in a children's series and presents on

1385
00:57:44.039 --> 00:57:44.340
screen.

1386
00:57:44.460 --> 00:57:47.219
What looks like something that happened 20 years ago?

1387
00:57:47.340 --> 00:57:49.500
That the children, the children will still be wet.

1388
00:57:49.619 --> 00:57:53.340
There are still large swathes of bomb sites in the 60s in London

1389
00:57:53.340 --> 00:57:55.679
in vacant areas thanks to the bombings.

1390
00:57:55.739 --> 00:57:59.400
Well, I mean, they shoot in sort of abandoned crumbling warehouses

1391
00:57:59.400 --> 00:58:00.059
and things like that.

1392
00:58:00.119 --> 00:58:02.340
Yeah, that was a national, that was a trauma from the national

1393
00:58:02.340 --> 00:58:06.239
psyche, you know, the blitz and the V1 and V2s blowing up huge

1394
00:58:06.239 --> 00:58:08.099
chunks of London when they fell.

1395
00:58:08.159 --> 00:58:09.719
In a sense too.

1396
00:58:09.780 --> 00:58:14.460
I think that that's why that 2nd film fails.

1397
00:58:14.519 --> 00:58:16.019
Like it doesn't...

1398
00:58:16.079 --> 00:58:18.659
Well, it doesn't fail artistically, but it fails commercially.

1399
00:58:18.719 --> 00:58:19.980
They don't do a 3rd film.

1400
00:58:20.039 --> 00:58:22.320
It doesn't do as well as anyone kind of expected.

1401
00:58:22.380 --> 00:58:25.079
And I think it is because it seems old.

1402
00:58:25.139 --> 00:58:30.360
It's dealing with obsessions from an earlier era, and it's not

1403
00:58:30.360 --> 00:58:32.219
really consonant with the public mood.

1404
00:58:32.280 --> 00:58:37.139
We no longer feel like we're emerging from rationing in World War

1405
00:58:37.139 --> 00:58:38.340
2 and anything like that.

1406
00:58:38.400 --> 00:58:41.340
You know, England is a bit more exciting and a bit more forward

1407
00:58:41.340 --> 00:58:41.760
looking.

1408
00:58:41.820 --> 00:58:44.400
I think it's just more to do with the fact that, and I don't think

1409
00:58:44.400 --> 00:58:45.300
it fails commercially.

1410
00:58:45.360 --> 00:58:47.400
I just think it doesn't it isn't the spectacular success.

1411
00:58:47.460 --> 00:58:49.559
It certainly doesn't do as well as they expected it.

1412
00:58:49.920 --> 00:58:50.820
We hope, whatever.

1413
00:58:50.880 --> 00:58:52.920
And also, I think it's just generally things have moved on.

1414
00:58:53.039 --> 00:58:53.940
I think you've still got issues.

1415
00:58:54.000 --> 00:58:56.699
I mean, because Gary Russell says that, you know, there are bombs

1416
00:58:56.699 --> 00:58:57.480
sites still in the 70s.

1417
00:58:57.539 --> 00:58:58.860
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1418
00:58:58.920 --> 00:59:00.119
But that's not how they feel about themselves.

1419
00:59:00.179 --> 00:59:01.019
No, not anymore.

1420
00:59:01.079 --> 00:59:02.400
It's a swing 60s.

1421
00:59:02.460 --> 00:59:03.119
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

1422
00:59:03.179 --> 00:59:05.099
But you can still have the alien invasion stories.

1423
00:59:05.159 --> 00:59:05.940
Sure, sure.

1424
00:59:06.000 --> 00:59:08.099
But then for everything that that film gets right.

1425
00:59:08.219 --> 00:59:09.360
And it does get quite a lot right.

1426
00:59:09.420 --> 00:59:13.619
It's not as imaginative as these TV episodes in postulating a

1427
00:59:13.619 --> 00:59:13.980
future.

1428
00:59:14.039 --> 00:59:19.980
So these episodes look a bit blitzy and like 1940s London, but no

1429
00:59:19.980 --> 00:59:21.239
one is really dressed that way.

1430
00:59:21.300 --> 00:59:24.539
They're just dressed drably, whereas in the film, they look like

1431
00:59:24.539 --> 00:59:26.639
they're dressed in the 1960s.

1432
00:59:26.699 --> 00:59:29.400
They look like they were dressed at the time when the film is

1433
00:59:29.400 --> 00:59:32.340
filmed rather than at the time it's meant to be set.

1434
00:59:32.400 --> 00:59:35.460
But I think that's okay because, I mean, that's and that's

1435
00:59:35.460 --> 00:59:35.880
what...

1436
00:59:35.880 --> 00:59:39.420
It may have been an effort to place... we generally do do that.

1437
00:59:39.480 --> 00:59:41.519
It's either that space tuning.

1438
00:59:41.579 --> 00:59:43.619
Yeah, yeah, exactly. to the space tunic.

1439
00:59:43.679 --> 00:59:48.599
We do have moving pavements or moving sideways or something in

1440
00:59:48.599 --> 00:59:49.320
London, apparently.

1441
00:59:49.380 --> 00:59:51.179
I hate to break it to you.

1442
00:59:51.239 --> 00:59:53.280
I think what they're wearing in Dalek Invasion of Earth is

1443
00:59:53.280 --> 00:59:54.960
actually what people are wearing in 1964.

1444
00:59:55.619 --> 00:59:56.099
I agree.

1445
00:59:56.159 --> 00:59:57.599
There's no dirty doubles to rags.

1446
00:59:57.659 --> 00:59:59.880
It's dirty up into rags, but by the time you get to a couple of

1447
00:59:59.880 --> 01:00:02.940
years later with the making of the 2nd film, Fashion has advanced

1448
01:00:02.940 --> 01:00:05.579
and there's a sense of fashion, whereas in fact, I think running

1449
01:00:05.579 --> 01:00:09.659
out of the mine at the end is a woman in a fur coat and a sort of

1450
01:00:09.659 --> 01:00:16.019
in the film. horribly malnourished post-war English people, don't

1451
01:00:16.019 --> 01:00:16.199
they?

1452
01:00:16.260 --> 01:00:18.719
I was shocked. was just shocked in this one to have all those

1453
01:00:18.719 --> 01:00:19.679
topless men.

1454
01:00:19.920 --> 01:00:22.199
Yeah, none of them who you wanted.

1455
01:00:22.320 --> 01:00:25.800
No, no, it's always the wrong ones, but I was like, 0 gosh.

1456
01:00:25.860 --> 01:00:27.900
It's always Roy Evans.

1457
01:00:28.079 --> 01:00:31.920
And also quite a diversity of extras in terms of ages as well.

1458
01:00:31.980 --> 01:00:35.639
But then, again, going back to Richard Martin occasionally gets it

1459
01:00:35.639 --> 01:00:35.940
right.

1460
01:00:36.000 --> 01:00:41.039
That incredible shot of those 2 Roberman, standing really tall and

1461
01:00:41.039 --> 01:00:44.460
erect on top of that mining cart that's heading into the

1462
01:00:44.460 --> 01:00:44.940
underground.

1463
01:00:45.000 --> 01:00:47.639
I think it's a very arresting image occasionally gets right.

1464
01:00:47.760 --> 01:00:49.260
That location is great too.

1465
01:00:49.320 --> 01:00:51.719
Like that that mine shaft location.

1466
01:00:51.780 --> 01:00:54.480
You know, that the train tracks and things coming out of is really

1467
01:00:54.480 --> 01:00:55.019
really something.

1468
01:00:55.079 --> 01:00:57.239
It is just a work in quarry, isn't it?

1469
01:00:57.300 --> 01:00:59.820
But it's the right time you need something like that.

1470
01:00:59.880 --> 01:01:02.280
And then, of course, then you get them observing all of the

1471
01:01:02.280 --> 01:01:03.599
volcanic explosion.

1472
01:01:03.659 --> 01:01:05.760
Which is hilarious.

1473
01:01:05.820 --> 01:01:09.239
I think you haven't even get an atomic cloud. bit of footage at

1474
01:01:09.239 --> 01:01:09.659
the end of it.

1475
01:01:09.719 --> 01:01:12.420
It actually makes me a little bit sad that Terry was never given a

1476
01:01:12.420 --> 01:01:13.860
proper unit story to rice.

1477
01:01:13.920 --> 01:01:18.119
I think he would have been very good at a unit, 70s alien invasion

1478
01:01:18.119 --> 01:01:18.780
story.

1479
01:01:18.840 --> 01:01:20.940
It would have pushed all of his buttons and it would have turned

1480
01:01:20.940 --> 01:01:22.019
out something really interesting.

1481
01:01:22.079 --> 01:01:23.639
I know we get the Android invasion.

1482
01:01:23.699 --> 01:01:24.239
It's not quite there.

1483
01:01:30.300 --> 01:01:34.019
The one thing we haven't talked about yet is the departure of

1484
01:01:34.019 --> 01:01:34.440
Susan.

1485
01:01:34.500 --> 01:01:34.980
Yeah.

1486
01:01:35.039 --> 01:01:38.880
And I think that's a really important thing in the development of

1487
01:01:38.880 --> 01:01:39.539
Doctor Who.

1488
01:01:39.599 --> 01:01:44.219
William Hartnell is utterly superb in that entire sequence at the

1489
01:01:44.219 --> 01:01:44.460
end.

1490
01:01:44.519 --> 01:01:45.780
It's amazing, isn't it?

1491
01:01:45.840 --> 01:01:47.820
Because it's been excerpted so often.

1492
01:01:47.880 --> 01:01:48.480
We've seen it.

1493
01:01:48.539 --> 01:01:51.840
We've kind of enured to it, but seeing it in context, he's great

1494
01:01:51.840 --> 01:01:52.320
in it.

1495
01:01:52.380 --> 01:01:55.679
You know, he's so superb in episodes one and two.

1496
01:01:55.739 --> 01:02:00.420
Then he has his unfortunate fall or whatever, 34, and he gets back

1497
01:02:00.420 --> 01:02:04.079
on track in five, but you can see Jacqueline Hill willing him to

1498
01:02:04.079 --> 01:02:07.980
get the dialogue out when he enters the dalek control room and

1499
01:02:07.980 --> 01:02:09.239
he's stumbling in.

1500
01:02:09.300 --> 01:02:11.460
You can see it in her eyes going, yes, you could do it, Bill.

1501
01:02:11.519 --> 01:02:13.079
Like, you know, she's...

1502
01:02:13.139 --> 01:02:15.840
Wait, you know, so, doctor, what you mean?

1503
01:02:15.960 --> 01:02:18.179
Oh, look, Dr. Demblo.

1504
01:02:18.239 --> 01:02:23.639
But just the dialogue that Terry has given all David Whittaker.

1505
01:02:23.699 --> 01:02:24.840
David Whitaker wrote that last time.

1506
01:02:24.900 --> 01:02:28.980
But just the dialogue, obviously ceding the whole romance thing

1507
01:02:28.980 --> 01:02:30.900
throughout and building it, right?

1508
01:02:30.960 --> 01:02:33.659
It's not just right at the end, right?

1509
01:02:33.719 --> 01:02:35.699
And you can see it happening, which is great.

1510
01:02:35.760 --> 01:02:39.719
Not just delightful in those scenes where they are sitting at, like

1511
01:02:39.719 --> 01:02:42.840
when David and Susan are sitting around the fire roasting the

1512
01:02:42.840 --> 01:02:44.639
rabbit and he comes and he says, oh, yes, I could see that

1513
01:02:44.639 --> 01:02:45.300
something was cooking.

1514
01:02:45.360 --> 01:02:46.380
It's a fish.

1515
01:02:49.320 --> 01:02:53.400
But all of that stuff outside the Tartars with her before he goes

1516
01:02:53.400 --> 01:02:58.380
in and then that entire sequence, he's just incredible.

1517
01:02:58.440 --> 01:03:01.739
And he's the thing that keeps that really going.

1518
01:03:01.800 --> 01:03:05.880
You may have different opinions like of Susan and David.

1519
01:03:05.940 --> 01:03:08.519
And I actually think the guy playing David, whose name I cannot

1520
01:03:08.519 --> 01:03:09.000
remember.

1521
01:03:09.059 --> 01:03:12.780
I actually think does a really good job of selling that bromance.

1522
01:03:12.900 --> 01:03:16.199
It's a shame that we see the back of his head in so many shots

1523
01:03:16.199 --> 01:03:18.000
towards the end there, right?

1524
01:03:18.059 --> 01:03:20.400
And I'm there going direction, direction, but we've discussed

1525
01:03:20.400 --> 01:03:21.900
direction.

1526
01:03:21.960 --> 01:03:23.699
I was going there too.

1527
01:03:23.760 --> 01:03:29.460
My biggest problem is the development of Susan slash Carol Anne

1528
01:03:29.460 --> 01:03:30.300
Ford's acting.

1529
01:03:30.300 --> 01:03:35.159
Because like for one whole year, she's been a 15, 16 year old, and

1530
01:03:35.159 --> 01:03:38.400
now in this one story, it's suddenly like she gets to be her age

1531
01:03:38.400 --> 01:03:40.019
like 21, 22, right?

1532
01:03:40.079 --> 01:03:42.539
And suddenly you don't see that before this.

1533
01:03:42.659 --> 01:03:45.900
There's also then Susan herself.

1534
01:03:45.960 --> 01:03:49.559
Like one minute she's hysterical at tripping over and hurting her

1535
01:03:49.559 --> 01:03:49.920
ankle.

1536
01:03:49.980 --> 01:03:54.599
Then it's like she's taken something to nullify her hysteria so

1537
01:03:54.599 --> 01:03:56.639
she can say to Barbara, oh, yes, go off and get some more water

1538
01:03:56.639 --> 01:03:58.860
because it's also nice. found some Xanax in the ruins.

1539
01:03:58.920 --> 01:04:03.659
Then the next moment, like Barbara says something like, oh, yes

1540
01:04:03.659 --> 01:04:06.539
put on the robo helmet and you'll be able to attack them and

1541
01:04:06.539 --> 01:04:09.000
everybody goes, oh, yes, as if they've never thought of that.

1542
01:04:09.059 --> 01:04:11.159
And they're all quite muted.

1543
01:04:11.219 --> 01:04:14.880
And then Susan does this when 7 out of 10 reaction is fine.

1544
01:04:14.940 --> 01:04:19.380
She does a 14 out of 10 on Barbara, as if to say, you are the god

1545
01:04:19.380 --> 01:04:21.300
of all ideas, right?

1546
01:04:21.360 --> 01:04:26.280
And so there's this swing between being totally over the top at

1547
01:04:26.280 --> 01:04:28.559
reactions and then totally the opposite.

1548
01:04:28.619 --> 01:04:31.920
And then you've got Caroline Ford looking mysteriously at the

1549
01:04:31.920 --> 01:04:32.940
camera like she does.

1550
01:04:33.000 --> 01:04:35.159
I like to go home in the dark, you know, in the forest.

1551
01:04:35.219 --> 01:04:38.820
Like she's some Eastern European model that's, you know, modelling

1552
01:04:38.820 --> 01:04:39.059
something.

1553
01:04:39.119 --> 01:04:40.380
Maybe she was.

1554
01:04:40.440 --> 01:04:41.280
Maybe she was.

1555
01:04:41.340 --> 01:04:43.860
But just throughout the entire thing, I'm just there going, oh, my

1556
01:04:43.860 --> 01:04:44.099
goodness.

1557
01:04:44.159 --> 01:04:46.139
And like then the baby crocodile sequence where she's having

1558
01:04:46.139 --> 01:04:51.000
hysteria again and then attacking the robamen like, I mean, I just

1559
01:04:51.000 --> 01:04:51.599
struggled.

1560
01:04:51.659 --> 01:04:52.679
Like, I could see the writing.

1561
01:04:52.739 --> 01:04:58.500
I like this sassy version of Susan when Jenny turns around or

1562
01:04:58.500 --> 01:05:02.219
Craddick or Tyler, whoever it is, one of them turns around and

1563
01:05:02.219 --> 01:05:03.119
says, and what do you do?

1564
01:05:03.179 --> 01:05:04.199
And she says, I eat.

1565
01:05:04.260 --> 01:05:04.800
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1566
01:05:04.800 --> 01:05:05.579
That's amazing.

1567
01:05:05.639 --> 01:05:07.800
I love that grown-up version of Susan.

1568
01:05:07.860 --> 01:05:08.460
Yes.

1569
01:05:08.519 --> 01:05:11.639
So it's it's so like one way over the place.

1570
01:05:11.699 --> 01:05:13.739
Over the place, if they didn't know what they were doing.

1571
01:05:13.800 --> 01:05:16.380
And it's obviously she doesn't know what she's doing, right?

1572
01:05:16.440 --> 01:05:18.360
I hate I hate criticising that.

1573
01:05:18.420 --> 01:05:19.920
Are you listening, Carol?

1574
01:05:19.980 --> 01:05:21.719
I'm just going to say this.

1575
01:05:21.780 --> 01:05:24.960
I think, you know, Maureen O'Brien comes in and it's just so much

1576
01:05:24.960 --> 01:05:25.139
better.

1577
01:05:25.199 --> 01:05:28.559
Well, she gives a more consistent performance through what you're

1578
01:05:28.559 --> 01:05:28.679
saying.

1579
01:05:28.739 --> 01:05:30.719
Yeah, there is something resembling a character.

1580
01:05:30.840 --> 01:05:34.920
But even in those last sequences, like with David, like they're

1581
01:05:34.920 --> 01:05:38.699
trying to focus on her and she's trying to give what they want, but

1582
01:05:38.699 --> 01:05:42.179
I still think like that tension in the last bit where is she going

1583
01:05:42.179 --> 01:05:44.880
to take David's hand or is she going to say, and I fully expect to

1584
01:05:44.880 --> 01:05:48.059
say, oh, I've made a terrible mistake. tracked on this planet and

1585
01:05:48.059 --> 01:05:48.719
it's just a disaster.

1586
01:05:48.780 --> 01:05:51.179
We're going to be farmers for Christ's sake.

1587
01:05:51.900 --> 01:05:55.800
You know, it's such a pivotal moment in the history of the show to

1588
01:05:55.800 --> 01:06:01.380
lose the 1st companion and have them depart and to see that play

1589
01:06:01.380 --> 01:06:01.739
out.

1590
01:06:01.800 --> 01:06:05.940
But also, I think it's great that it is actually seated throughout

1591
01:06:05.940 --> 01:06:09.000
the episode and it's not just one of these last 10 minute jobs.

1592
01:06:09.059 --> 01:06:11.400
Yeah, I think it is kind of well done.

1593
01:06:11.460 --> 01:06:16.800
And I mean, it is a problem that they never kind of land Susan's

1594
01:06:16.800 --> 01:06:21.360
character properly, and it's possible that making her the doctor's

1595
01:06:21.360 --> 01:06:26.460
granddaughter is partly to blame for that as well, because when

1596
01:06:26.460 --> 01:06:30.179
Maureen O'Brien comes along, and the doctor's just so keen to

1597
01:06:30.179 --> 01:06:34.260
impress her and he really likes her and he's not protective of her

1598
01:06:34.260 --> 01:06:35.340
in quite the same way.

1599
01:06:35.400 --> 01:06:39.119
You know, like he wants to, he wants her to have fun and he wants

1600
01:06:39.119 --> 01:06:41.099
to show her adventures and stuff like that.

1601
01:06:41.159 --> 01:06:45.480
Whereas he wants to kind of keep Susan under his wing a little

1602
01:06:45.480 --> 01:06:45.780
bit.

1603
01:06:45.840 --> 01:06:50.820
And this is infamously, obviously, where he says that she's in

1604
01:06:50.820 --> 01:06:52.860
need of a jolly good smacked bottom.

1605
01:06:52.920 --> 01:06:57.539
Like, it was always just maybe a slightly better.

1606
01:06:57.599 --> 01:06:59.579
I think he thinks she's in need of something else that's jolly

1607
01:06:59.579 --> 01:07:00.179
good.

1608
01:07:00.239 --> 01:07:01.860
Yes, exactly.

1609
01:07:01.920 --> 01:07:03.420
It's time for her to become a woman.

1610
01:07:03.480 --> 01:07:05.760
Well, that's that wonderful moment, isn't it?

1611
01:07:05.820 --> 01:07:09.239
Where he kind of knows what's going on and he's not jealous and he

1612
01:07:09.239 --> 01:07:10.139
actually plays along.

1613
01:07:10.199 --> 01:07:13.380
There's a bit where he's off somewhere and the doctor and Susan

1614
01:07:13.380 --> 01:07:16.800
are having an argument about what to do next and she wants to do

1615
01:07:16.800 --> 01:07:20.219
what David has suggested and the doctor doesn't want to do that

1616
01:07:20.219 --> 01:07:21.480
because he's in charge.

1617
01:07:21.539 --> 01:07:23.039
But then when he sees it.

1618
01:07:23.159 --> 01:07:24.360
He's all grumbly.

1619
01:07:24.420 --> 01:07:24.960
Yeah, yeah.

1620
01:07:25.019 --> 01:07:28.199
But then he sees what's going on and he decides to suggest the

1621
01:07:28.199 --> 01:07:29.699
thing that David was going to do.

1622
01:07:29.760 --> 01:07:32.159
And Caroline is very good in that scene.

1623
01:07:32.219 --> 01:07:33.840
Yeah, that's a good scene.

1624
01:07:33.900 --> 01:07:37.079
I think that sets that up because it is, you know, finally going

1625
01:07:37.079 --> 01:07:39.659
to be a decision between David and her.

1626
01:07:39.719 --> 01:07:42.780
I think the mistake is not giving her any agency there.

1627
01:07:42.840 --> 01:07:44.940
It would have been better if she had been able to make that

1628
01:07:44.940 --> 01:07:45.480
decision.

1629
01:07:45.599 --> 01:07:49.440
And, you know, there's that sort of kind of unfortunate thing

1630
01:07:49.440 --> 01:07:52.019
about how the companions have to go off and get married.

1631
01:07:52.079 --> 01:07:53.099
Do you know what I mean?

1632
01:07:53.219 --> 01:07:53.940
Because she's a woman.

1633
01:07:54.000 --> 01:07:54.960
What else is she going to do?

1634
01:07:55.019 --> 01:07:55.440
You know?

1635
01:07:55.500 --> 01:07:58.139
But I think that's I think that's a leftover thing of the times

1636
01:07:58.139 --> 01:07:59.400
like, yeah, for sure.

1637
01:07:59.400 --> 01:08:02.400
Yes, we can still have her being a relationship, but they still

1638
01:08:02.400 --> 01:08:02.940
have to get married.

1639
01:08:03.000 --> 01:08:04.800
Like there's that caveat at the end.

1640
01:08:04.860 --> 01:08:07.019
We're not at the end of the 60s where they could just go off

1641
01:08:07.019 --> 01:08:07.920
together and live together.

1642
01:08:07.980 --> 01:08:08.639
Do you know what I mean?

1643
01:08:08.699 --> 01:08:09.119
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1644
01:08:09.179 --> 01:08:10.199
She is a very good cook, apparently.

1645
01:08:10.920 --> 01:08:11.519
It's that.

1646
01:08:11.820 --> 01:08:13.380
She eats.

1647
01:08:13.500 --> 01:08:15.059
No, in the campsite.

1648
01:08:15.119 --> 01:08:15.960
Yeah, yeah.

1649
01:08:16.020 --> 01:08:17.220
The doctor says she's a very good cook.

1650
01:08:17.279 --> 01:08:18.060
David will call to David.

1651
01:08:18.119 --> 01:08:18.600
She eats.

1652
01:08:18.720 --> 01:08:22.020
It's almost as if the very good cook line is they're repairing the

1653
01:08:22.020 --> 01:08:25.020
IE line in order to make her a suitable line.

1654
01:08:25.020 --> 01:08:27.479
We made her...

1655
01:08:27.539 --> 01:08:31.500
The floor the floor with Susan is that, yes, as you say, they make

1656
01:08:31.500 --> 01:08:33.840
it the doctor's granddaughter and they were going to make her an

1657
01:08:33.840 --> 01:08:35.220
alien and that's how she was going to be.

1658
01:08:35.279 --> 01:08:37.439
She was going to have telepathy and all this kind of stuff which

1659
01:08:37.439 --> 01:08:37.859
they explore.

1660
01:08:37.979 --> 01:08:41.460
All never happened, really. a little bit of a darker angstier

1661
01:08:41.460 --> 01:08:42.720
character, which they can't land.

1662
01:08:42.779 --> 01:08:46.680
Whereas when they introduce Vicky, she's bright and bubbly and so

1663
01:08:46.680 --> 01:08:47.579
she brings it to us.

1664
01:08:47.640 --> 01:08:50.880
No, what I was going to say was, but the problem is that for the

1665
01:08:50.880 --> 01:08:54.720
stories, they need someone to get into trouble and to sprain their

1666
01:08:54.720 --> 01:08:56.399
ankle and so on and so on.

1667
01:08:56.460 --> 01:09:00.180
And so that's that's completely at odds with this idea of her

1668
01:09:00.180 --> 01:09:01.619
being a sophisticated...

1669
01:09:01.680 --> 01:09:03.420
By episode 2 of the show.

1670
01:09:03.479 --> 01:09:05.039
She's having a panicky meltdown.

1671
01:09:05.039 --> 01:09:05.939
Yes, yes, exactly.

1672
01:09:05.939 --> 01:09:07.020
She can't see the doctor.

1673
01:09:07.079 --> 01:09:07.619
Yeah, exactly.

1674
01:09:07.680 --> 01:09:11.939
Because so the 3 paragraph character outline, whatever it is, is

1675
01:09:11.939 --> 01:09:15.000
already is basically thrown away, and then every now and again

1676
01:09:15.000 --> 01:09:17.819
someone finds a sentence of us and drops it in something.

1677
01:09:17.880 --> 01:09:18.600
Yes, exactly.

1678
01:09:18.659 --> 01:09:21.479
Don't you think that this story as a whole could have benefitted

1679
01:09:21.479 --> 01:09:24.539
from Sydney Newman watching it with a resigned look and turning

1680
01:09:24.539 --> 01:09:26.100
around saying, do it again, Richard.

1681
01:09:26.159 --> 01:09:27.539
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

1682
01:09:27.600 --> 01:09:29.039
It could have. thing should have been shot twice.

1683
01:09:29.100 --> 01:09:29.760
Absolutely.

1684
01:09:29.819 --> 01:09:31.619
Well, probably more than twice.

1685
01:09:31.739 --> 01:09:34.920
Fortunately, since then it has been.

1686
01:09:35.279 --> 01:09:36.659
Exactly.

1687
01:09:57.899 --> 01:10:01.079
Well, that's all the time we have for this week.

1688
01:10:01.079 --> 01:10:04.140
We'll be back next week for the second appearance of Doctor Who's

1689
01:10:04.140 --> 01:10:06.479
second 11 in the moon base.

1690
01:10:06.539 --> 01:10:10.260
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts

1691
01:10:10.260 --> 01:10:14.159
and you can keep up with us on our website, 500yeardiary.com, where

1692
01:10:14.159 --> 01:10:17.279
you'll find our social media links, as well as links to all of our

1693
01:10:17.279 --> 01:10:21.060
other podcasts, including our other Doctor Who podcasts, flight

1694
01:10:21.060 --> 01:10:24.539
through entirety, and the 2nd great and bountiful human empire.

1695
01:10:24.960 --> 01:10:28.920
Until next time, remember that there's nothing better than hitting

1696
01:10:28.920 --> 01:10:32.520
your fascist overlords with rocks and then blowing them up in a

1697
01:10:32.520 --> 01:10:34.079
massive volcanic explosion.

1698
01:10:34.140 --> 01:10:36.720
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

1699
01:10:36.779 --> 01:10:37.800
Good night.

1700
01:10:37.859 --> 01:10:38.460
Bye bye.

1701
01:10:38.520 --> 01:10:39.659
See you soon.

1702
01:10:49.319 --> 01:10:54.000
That was 500-year diary, starring Todd Bealby, Nathan Bottomley

1703
01:10:54.000 --> 01:10:55.439
Peter Griffiths and Simon Moore.

1704
01:10:55.560 --> 01:10:58.020
The theme was composed by Cameron Lamb.

1705
01:10:58.079 --> 01:11:01.739
This episode, Daleks Daleks, was recorded on the 16th of March

1706
01:11:01.739 --> 01:11:04.500
2025, and released on the 27th of April.

1707
01:11:04.560 --> 01:11:08.579
If you've enjoyed hearing us, discuss a Doctor Who story over 60

1708
01:11:08.579 --> 01:11:11.279
years old and you want to hear what we think about the last few

1709
01:11:11.279 --> 01:11:15.119
weeks, head on over to our Doctor Who flashcast at the 2nd great

1710
01:11:15.119 --> 01:11:18.899
and bountifulhumanempire.com, or if you're pressed for time, just

1711
01:11:18.899 --> 01:11:20.699
greatandbountiful.com.

1712
01:11:36.060 --> 01:11:40.859
There is absolutely a reason that this is one of two heart and all

1713
01:11:40.859 --> 01:11:42.840
stories that are novelized in the 1970s.

1714
01:11:42.899 --> 01:11:48.720
Um, the power of its imagery and where it sits in the public

1715
01:11:48.720 --> 01:11:50.520
consciousness, in fan consciousness.

1716
01:11:50.579 --> 01:11:52.680
Very important fans, lives on.

1717
01:11:52.739 --> 01:11:57.119
And the novelisation of this book starts with maybe the most

1718
01:11:57.119 --> 01:12:00.359
famous opening line of any target novelisation, which is through

1719
01:12:00.359 --> 01:12:03.899
the ruin of the city, stalked the ruin of a man, and that is

1720
01:12:03.899 --> 01:12:07.739
Terence Dix delivering his best based on what Terry has given

1721
01:12:07.739 --> 01:12:08.039
him.

1722
01:12:08.100 --> 01:12:10.260
That's Terry's best, that opening shot.

1723
01:12:10.319 --> 01:12:15.600
I think this story is all about the potency of its images and you

1724
01:12:15.600 --> 01:12:18.000
just can't take that away no matter what its problems are.

1725
01:12:18.060 --> 01:12:21.119
I think part of the reason it's one of the 2 Partnel stories

1726
01:12:21.119 --> 01:12:24.539
novelized in the 70s is because of the film, but also what we

1727
01:12:24.539 --> 01:12:28.020
haven't really talked about as on the potency of the image is that

1728
01:12:28.020 --> 01:12:31.319
opening sequence which is utterly horrific, really.

1729
01:12:31.380 --> 01:12:34.979
A man a man drowns himself in the Thames.

1730
01:12:35.039 --> 01:12:37.140
And there's a poster behind where they're just forbidden to

1731
01:12:37.140 --> 01:12:37.859
gumble.

1732
01:12:38.579 --> 01:12:40.739
That is, in fact, the most sinister thing in the entire story, that

1733
01:12:40.739 --> 01:12:41.100
poster.

1734
01:12:41.159 --> 01:12:42.000
Yeah, yeah.

1735
01:12:42.060 --> 01:12:45.180
And that poster, they're not put up by the Daleks saying, that's

1736
01:12:45.180 --> 01:12:46.319
put up at the time of the plague.

1737
01:12:46.380 --> 01:12:47.579
Yes, before the invasion.

1738
01:12:47.640 --> 01:12:47.880
Exactly.

1739
01:12:48.239 --> 01:12:50.399
Trop that in somewhere earlier.

1740
01:12:50.460 --> 01:12:51.600
Because then none your thing.

1741
01:12:52.020 --> 01:12:55.020
So I just wanted to say that.

1742
01:12:55.020 --> 01:12:56.640
So the other one's kids of Marinas, I assume.

1743
01:12:56.699 --> 01:12:59.279
No, the kids match 1980, the other one's the 10th planet.

1744
01:12:59.340 --> 01:13:00.659
Of course.

1745
01:13:00.720 --> 01:13:03.659
Yes, yes, yes, yes. you've only got the original three.

1746
01:13:03.720 --> 01:13:06.779
And then you've got those...

1747
01:13:06.779 --> 01:13:08.100
Like the 2 headline stories.

1748
01:13:08.100 --> 01:13:11.819
Because all the ones that are in the early 70s, the next batch

1749
01:13:11.819 --> 01:13:14.520
that 1st batch with the Pertwe logo on them, they're Pertweis, but

1750
01:13:14.520 --> 01:13:17.880
they're also Pat stories, the season 5 there, but...

1751
01:13:17.880 --> 01:13:20.220
That's right. don't start getting half the cyberman.

1752
01:13:20.279 --> 01:13:21.119
The Cyberman.

1753
01:13:21.180 --> 01:13:21.840
Yeah, that's right.

1754
01:13:21.899 --> 01:13:24.720
You get Keys Marinus, which is a weird kind of, you know, why did

1755
01:13:24.720 --> 01:13:25.619
they choose King?

1756
01:13:25.680 --> 01:13:26.460
I think great because...

1757
01:13:26.579 --> 01:13:28.739
No, it is a great choice, but it's weird from a marketing angle

1758
01:13:28.739 --> 01:13:32.220
that they would choose that over something like the chase.

1759
01:13:32.340 --> 01:13:34.380
Well, maybe I think looking at the script of the chase, you'd

1760
01:13:34.380 --> 01:13:35.939
think, how do we normalise that and make it interesting because

1761
01:13:35.939 --> 01:13:36.720
basically nothing happens.

1762
01:13:36.779 --> 01:13:39.239
I mean, it could also have been coming from...

1763
01:13:39.239 --> 01:13:41.039
Well, but I mean, Darlic Invasion of Earth does that.

1764
01:13:41.100 --> 01:13:42.479
To be fair, it's the same thing.

1765
01:13:42.539 --> 01:13:43.920
So there's keys of marinus.

1766
01:13:43.979 --> 01:13:45.479
It's just we go from a thing to a thing.

1767
01:13:45.539 --> 01:13:48.479
We get in our travel dials and go to the next episode.

1768
01:13:48.600 --> 01:13:51.539
I think so much of this is coming from Terrence because Terrence

1769
01:13:51.539 --> 01:13:55.319
was the unofficial kind of editor of the range choosing, you know

1770
01:13:55.319 --> 01:13:57.239
what would be done and who would do it.

1771
01:13:57.300 --> 01:14:01.199
I think he's been in the viewing room, watching clips, including

1772
01:14:01.199 --> 01:14:05.460
Dalek Invasion of Earth, for the lively arts documentary, and he's

1773
01:14:05.460 --> 01:14:07.859
gone, okay, we'll do this next. 6 months later out it comes.

1774
01:14:09.119 --> 01:14:12.060
Yeah, I mean, I don't know.

1775
01:14:13.560 --> 01:14:17.100
Yeah, we're going to talk about Russell, but I just don't think we

1776
01:14:17.100 --> 01:14:18.060
will, I think.

1777
01:14:18.720 --> 01:14:24.779
You know, he steals the Dalek invasion of earth and the ridiculous

1778
01:14:24.779 --> 01:14:27.539
premise of Dalek invasion of earth for stolen earth.

1779
01:14:27.600 --> 01:14:31.979
The reason the earth is stolen is so that the Daleks can drive

1780
01:14:31.979 --> 01:14:35.159
around in it, you know, through his face or whatever.

1781
01:14:35.220 --> 01:14:36.119
Yeah.

1782
01:14:36.119 --> 01:14:38.579
Well, I could imagine in the context of Dark Invasion, but this is

1783
01:14:38.579 --> 01:14:39.479
not the only planet they're doing.

1784
01:14:39.539 --> 01:14:43.199
But he does, like, he does actually, like, a doctor.

1785
01:14:43.260 --> 01:14:46.140
Yeah, it's a fairly loving...

1786
01:14:46.199 --> 01:14:48.060
Yeah, fairly loving homage to their space.

1787
01:14:48.119 --> 01:14:49.020
There's much to talk about.

1788
01:14:49.079 --> 01:14:49.560
No, no.

1789
01:14:49.619 --> 01:14:52.199
It's got the males, the females, the descendants.

1790
01:14:52.260 --> 01:14:53.100
Oh, is that right?

1791
01:14:53.100 --> 01:14:54.600
Yes, he uses that.

1792
01:14:54.659 --> 01:14:59.340
But also, like the 1st companion departure in New Who is someone

1793
01:14:59.340 --> 01:15:02.640
who is left behind to rebuild the earth after the Daleks are

1794
01:15:02.640 --> 01:15:04.619
destroyed and destroyed.

1795
01:15:04.680 --> 01:15:08.880
No, no, in stolen in...

1796
01:15:08.939 --> 01:15:10.979
No, no, no, no. when Jack leaves.

1797
01:15:11.039 --> 01:15:15.600
Like, they leave Jack behind, and then there's a line about he's

1798
01:15:15.600 --> 01:15:18.840
going to be busy rebuilding the earth because the earth has been

1799
01:15:18.840 --> 01:15:19.319
destroyed.

1800
01:15:19.380 --> 01:15:21.000
Like we watch the Daleks destroy the earth.

1801
01:15:21.779 --> 01:15:23.460
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1802
01:15:23.520 --> 01:15:27.060
And we watch them, you know, like it's 200 years in the future in

1803
01:15:27.060 --> 01:15:32.279
in the, in the, it's, you know, 200 centuries in the future in

1804
01:15:32.279 --> 01:15:33.720
Russell's 1st season.

1805
01:15:33.840 --> 01:15:38.340
I think this is where Russell in those 1st couple of years pays

1806
01:15:38.340 --> 01:15:41.939
homage to Classic Who and puts little things like that in.

1807
01:15:42.000 --> 01:15:46.859
So that it means nothing to new people, but if we hear it, oh wow

1808
01:15:46.859 --> 01:15:47.760
that's a little nugget.

1809
01:15:47.819 --> 01:15:50.939
But remember what Russell does is he introduces the dialects in

1810
01:15:50.939 --> 01:15:54.359
series one, the sidemen in series two, the master in series three

1811
01:15:54.359 --> 01:15:55.560
Dan Ross in series four.

1812
01:15:55.619 --> 01:15:57.239
He's introducing all the 10th goal.

1813
01:15:58.199 --> 01:15:59.760
Oh, this on Taran's in series 4 as well.

1814
01:15:59.819 --> 01:16:00.659
Orton?

1815
01:16:00.659 --> 01:16:03.359
But like he's doing that.

1816
01:16:03.420 --> 01:16:06.300
He's introducing those big tent pole things so that young people

1817
01:16:06.300 --> 01:16:10.199
have that as part of their experience of Doctor Who just as we

1818
01:16:10.199 --> 01:16:10.560
did.

1819
01:16:10.619 --> 01:16:14.699
And so the 1st Dalek story is a dalek trapped panicking in a

1820
01:16:14.699 --> 01:16:16.260
building that it's unable to leave.

1821
01:16:16.500 --> 01:16:21.779
And then we have the Daleks coming in force as a giant spectacle

1822
01:16:21.779 --> 01:16:24.539
and destroying the earth, you know.

1823
01:16:24.600 --> 01:16:27.359
But in some respects, that's because that's playing with just

1824
01:16:27.359 --> 01:16:28.500
different aspects of the Daleks.

1825
01:16:28.560 --> 01:16:30.659
I mean, that's just also it's Dalek.

1826
01:16:30.720 --> 01:16:33.359
I mean, I haven't heard the audio, but Dalek is a pre-existing

1827
01:16:33.359 --> 01:16:33.600
story.

1828
01:16:34.260 --> 01:16:36.840
It's not very much like Jubilee.

1829
01:16:36.899 --> 01:16:37.380
Okay, right.

1830
01:16:37.439 --> 01:16:40.380
Bass plays a solo Dalek being tortured.

1831
01:16:40.439 --> 01:16:41.340
That's it, right.

1832
01:16:41.399 --> 01:16:41.579
Okay.

1833
01:16:41.640 --> 01:16:43.800
But the point being that Martin Jarvis.

1834
01:16:43.859 --> 01:16:45.479
Yeah, awesome. really good.

1835
01:16:46.859 --> 01:16:52.260
But the, but the, it's, it's, I don't, I, I, I don't think it is a

1836
01:16:52.260 --> 01:16:56.039
literal, I don't think it's a deliberate reflection of those 1st 2

1837
01:16:56.039 --> 01:16:56.699
Dalek stories.

1838
01:16:56.760 --> 01:16:58.800
I think it's just the fact that you have a standalone Dalek story

1839
01:16:58.800 --> 01:17:02.399
early in the season or midseason, and then you have the climax

1840
01:17:02.399 --> 01:17:04.619
which is going to be kind of a space invasion type thing.

1841
01:17:04.739 --> 01:17:07.800
I think opening the scale up, though, is doing that.

1842
01:17:07.859 --> 01:17:08.939
And I think that's a deliberate choice.

1843
01:17:09.000 --> 01:17:10.560
Yeah, I think, well, I think it's, yes.

1844
01:17:10.619 --> 01:17:14.399
But it's also just doing both sides of what you can do with Dalek

1845
01:17:14.399 --> 01:17:14.819
I think.

1846
01:17:14.880 --> 01:17:18.840
The claustrophobic versus the the the big invader kind of thing.

1847
01:17:18.899 --> 01:17:22.079
Yeah, I mean, I think obviously he's got, he's inspired by a lot

1848
01:17:22.079 --> 01:17:26.579
of the original series and he, not remakes per se, but he, he, he

1849
01:17:26.579 --> 01:17:27.420
riffs on it.

1850
01:17:27.479 --> 01:17:30.060
Yeah, he wants to build on it and say, well, this is this number.

1851
01:17:30.119 --> 01:17:31.619
So I'll do that and so on.

1852
01:17:31.680 --> 01:17:34.319
He takes that inspiration and then, as you said, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1853
01:17:34.380 --> 01:17:36.180
And how can you make a new series of noct 2 and not have the

1854
01:17:36.180 --> 01:17:36.960
dialects invade Earth?

1855
01:17:37.020 --> 01:17:37.859
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1856
01:17:37.920 --> 01:17:40.079
And, you know, like, to be fair, that too part of it, which I

1857
01:17:40.079 --> 01:17:42.000
think is, you know, one of the best things that the new series

1858
01:17:42.000 --> 01:17:42.779
ever does.

1859
01:17:42.840 --> 01:17:45.300
No, no, the two-parter at the end of series one, I think is

1860
01:17:45.300 --> 01:17:45.840
magnificent.

1861
01:17:45.899 --> 01:17:51.479
Yeah, yeah. is mostly about, you know, other TV shows that are on

1862
01:17:51.479 --> 01:17:52.439
at the time.

1863
01:17:52.500 --> 01:17:54.779
Because the best Starlic stories don't have Daleks in them too

1864
01:17:54.779 --> 01:17:54.960
much.

1865
01:17:55.020 --> 01:17:55.859
Yeah, yeah.

1866
01:17:55.920 --> 01:17:57.359
Well, they turn up at the end of episode one.

1867
01:17:59.220 --> 01:18:01.079
Of course they do.

1868
01:18:01.140 --> 01:18:04.859
There is a little part of me that will always be slightly mad at

1869
01:18:04.859 --> 01:18:08.220
Russell that we didn't find out in the stolen earth, that Tyler in

1870
01:18:08.220 --> 01:18:09.899
Darlic Invasion Earth is a descendant.

1871
01:18:09.960 --> 01:18:11.340
You know who.