WEBVTT NOTE This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 09:04:22 1 00:00:33.000 --> 00:00:37.020 Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to 500 year diary. 2 00:00:37.140 --> 00:00:46.920 The only Doctor Who podcast that's separate from the government outside the police and beyond the United Nations, because we're just nerds on a couch. 3 00:00:46.979 --> 00:00:48.539 I'm Nathan. 4 00:00:48.600 --> 00:00:49.740 I'm Brendan. 5 00:00:49.799 --> 00:00:52.320 I'm James and I'm Todd. 6 00:00:52.560 --> 00:00:56.640 It's the 22nd of October 2006. 7 00:00:57.719 --> 00:01:07.319 Tonight on BBC 3, a milestone in Doctor Who history, the 1st broadcast ever of the 2nd episode of a Doctor Who spinoff. 8 00:01:07.379 --> 00:01:21.120 But immediately before that, the 1st episode in which Gwen Cooper meets that mysterious traveller in time and space known only as Captain Jack Harkness, and begins to learn about the horrors of the universe. 9 00:01:21.180 --> 00:01:28.859 It's the 21st century, so it's time for Torchwood, series one, episode one, everything changes. 10 00:01:46.920 --> 00:02:00.120 So, 18 months ago, we had the first episode of New Who, and now we have Russell T. Davis introducing a second show in that period of time. 11 00:02:00.420 --> 00:02:06.599 How much do you think he learns from or relies on road? 12 00:02:06.719 --> 00:02:09.060 as he's launching this new show? 13 00:02:09.419 --> 00:02:25.979 I think he has learned a lot from Rose, or at least knows what works from Rose, the modern day setting, making it a relatable real world setting with alien stuff sort of thrown into it. 14 00:02:26.039 --> 00:02:38.939 I guess it's it's the yeti on the Tooting Beck kind of approach that worked really well with Rose, bringing strange alien things into a normal world. 15 00:02:39.000 --> 00:02:46.740 The difference, I think, is how dark and gritty and urban he makes this world. 16 00:02:46.800 --> 00:02:52.500 It's kind of that early to mid 2000s kind of, ooh, let's have it all set in the rain. 17 00:02:52.560 --> 00:02:53.939 Let's have it in car parks. 18 00:02:54.000 --> 00:03:02.219 Let's make it real by making it dirty and dark and that's something that the rose definitely doesn't have. 19 00:03:02.400 --> 00:03:04.680 It's very true, James. 20 00:03:04.740 --> 00:03:10.740 I think he's taking that, but he's also, he's got this really strong female character investigating, right? 21 00:03:10.800 --> 00:03:23.580 And you've got that in rows, like Rose being the central figure, and here you've got Gwen, and you've also got the same thing, like back in an unearthly child with Barbara, also heading on the investigation as well. 22 00:03:23.639 --> 00:03:25.919 So those things are very, very similar. 23 00:03:25.979 --> 00:03:29.340 But there's also unravelling certain beats throughout the episode. 24 00:03:29.400 --> 00:03:33.719 Like, I mean, Yanto's not introduced until about 19 minutes in. 25 00:03:33.780 --> 00:03:35.520 So there's certain things that have to happen. 26 00:03:35.520 --> 00:03:38.039 And I think he's actually learnt to space that out. 27 00:03:38.099 --> 00:03:45.120 So just when you're perhaps, oh, where are we going with this, suddenly there's a new element and that's what I see in this in particular. 28 00:03:45.240 --> 00:04:00.300 But also it's also sort of a bit, well, we're going to be the anti-Doctor Who, so we're going to put the F-bomb in in the 1st 2 minutes and then and then later on, you know, it's back again, although the main characters don't necessarily say that word, it's all supporting cast. 29 00:04:00.360 --> 00:04:07.319 And then you've got the huge blood, right, of with the weevil and the death of that particular orderly. 30 00:04:07.379 --> 00:04:12.180 So there are certain things there where he's sort of saying, well, we're not Doctor Who, you know? 31 00:04:12.240 --> 00:04:14.219 It's the same pattern, isn't it? 32 00:04:14.280 --> 00:04:21.240 It's our female lead who is investigating someone trying to find out something about them. 33 00:04:21.300 --> 00:04:22.740 Yeah, yeah. 34 00:04:22.800 --> 00:04:29.100 And on the topic of death, which is a big theme in torchwood. 35 00:04:29.160 --> 00:04:44.040 Something a lot of fans commented on with, particularly Russell's 1st year on Doctor Who, is that whenever a character died, we would usually cut away just at the last moment and the rest would be left up to the audience imagination. 36 00:04:44.279 --> 00:04:48.899 Torchwood starts with a corpse, who then dies again. 37 00:04:49.319 --> 00:04:53.579 And also, as you say, Todd, the violent attack on the hospital worker. 38 00:04:53.639 --> 00:04:59.699 And then later on in the episode, we are explicitly told, yes, he's died, yes, we've covered it up and thrown the body in the bay. 39 00:04:59.759 --> 00:05:11.699 Yeah, I mean, original Doctor Who is about death, and I remember interviews with Russell saying how important death was to the show, and it is very important to Rose, isn't it? 40 00:05:11.759 --> 00:05:18.959 We get that visit to Clive, where Clive explains that wherever the doctor goes, death and destruction kind of follow. 41 00:05:19.019 --> 00:05:22.980 And of course, Clive is killed at the climax of the episode. 42 00:05:23.040 --> 00:05:25.079 And so death is important to Doctor Who. 43 00:05:25.139 --> 00:05:38.100 And it is a massive theme in this episode of tortured and in tortured generally, obviously climaxing in series 4, which is all about death or not death, as the case may be. 44 00:05:38.160 --> 00:05:43.199 But essentially, I think what we get is sort of very similar beats, don't we? 45 00:05:43.259 --> 00:05:47.519 We get an initial encounter with Jack. 46 00:05:47.639 --> 00:05:50.339 So like an initial counter with the doctor. 47 00:05:50.399 --> 00:05:51.000 Exactly. 48 00:05:51.060 --> 00:06:13.620 So we get to see him enough that then she wants to investigate further, then she actually ends up being allowed into the sort of bass, and she gets to meet everyone, and then she gets to kind of, well, she doesn't really get to resolve the plot in quite the same way as Rose does. 49 00:06:13.680 --> 00:06:15.959 But it has that same shape, doesn't it? 50 00:06:16.019 --> 00:06:32.339 It's got the initial encounter, searching for the main guy, eventually kind of meeting him properly and getting to know the premise of the show and then being invited into the show at the very end of the episode after the thing's resolved. 51 00:06:32.399 --> 00:06:36.180 It also gives that character a chance to show its chops. 52 00:06:36.240 --> 00:06:41.819 Like, it basically shows how good an investigator Gwen is. 53 00:06:41.879 --> 00:06:49.560 You know, she finds a lead, she follows it, she goes to the pizza parlour, she tracks down that lead, she inveigles her way into the base. 54 00:06:49.620 --> 00:06:58.199 So it actually allows you to show this is a strong, interesting character who has agency and can motivate a plot. 55 00:06:58.259 --> 00:07:00.600 And what's especially interesting about that? 56 00:07:00.660 --> 00:07:11.279 To me, as I was watching, is that in terms of Rose, Rose, as she sums up at the end of the episode, she's got nothing going on for, you know, she's in a dead end job. 57 00:07:11.399 --> 00:07:12.779 She's not happy in her life. 58 00:07:12.839 --> 00:07:14.579 She's not particularly happy in her relationship. 59 00:07:14.639 --> 00:07:17.819 So going off with the doctor at the end is a given. 60 00:07:17.879 --> 00:07:21.120 Gwen is respected in her work. 61 00:07:21.240 --> 00:07:33.839 You know, there is that scene early on where she's bringing everyone around the tees, but later on when she comes in, she can just get one of her colleagues in the office to go look someone up on a whim without having to go through regular processes. 62 00:07:33.899 --> 00:07:43.740 And then when she comes in on the scene where they've determined the murder weapon, she's speaking to a more senior member of staff who just talks to her as if they're equals. 63 00:07:43.800 --> 00:07:45.959 So she clearly has the respect there. 64 00:07:46.019 --> 00:07:59.519 She has a brilliant partner in Reese, you know, who when he's cooked her a nice dinner and she blows him off to go investigate tortured and says she's working and then apparently comes home and falls asleep hung over. 65 00:07:59.579 --> 00:08:01.680 His only concern is, are you okay? 66 00:08:01.740 --> 00:08:02.759 Here, have a cup of tea. 67 00:08:02.819 --> 00:08:04.379 You really shouldn't be drinking that much. 68 00:08:04.439 --> 00:08:05.699 There's no recrimination. 69 00:08:05.759 --> 00:08:12.839 So he, you know, he's not Mickey, who's more interested in going to see the football when, you know, Rose has had a traumatic night. 70 00:08:12.899 --> 00:08:24.180 So Gwen actually has a really brilliant life and still at the end chooses the possibility of it being upended for this life of weirdness. 71 00:08:24.240 --> 00:08:34.620 And I think that's a very adult choice because I think all children at some point have a fantasy of having a more exciting life, but that's less encouraged in adults. 72 00:08:34.679 --> 00:08:36.179 Yeah, we've given up on it really. 73 00:08:36.480 --> 00:08:38.940 Yes, thanks for that, Nathan. 74 00:08:39.000 --> 00:08:40.080 Looking at me. 75 00:08:40.080 --> 00:08:42.360 One, 3 weeks into my marriage. 76 00:08:45.059 --> 00:08:46.919 Congratulations. 77 00:08:50.879 --> 00:09:01.620 It's interesting you talk about race because I think this is something that Russell's probably learned from the rose episode where Mickey is just so, like, just not well received at all. 78 00:09:01.679 --> 00:09:11.399 And you just really don't like that character, whereas here you do like Reese and you do see a strength in him and a relationship there, which is actually, you get an inkling. 79 00:09:11.460 --> 00:09:11.639 Well. 80 00:09:11.700 --> 00:09:14.340 He's good for her, but is she good for him kind of thing? 81 00:09:14.399 --> 00:09:24.480 Like there's that thing like with Rose where they're a little bit taken boyfriend for granted or I'm not, yeah, that's probably where I'm heading with that a bit. 82 00:09:24.600 --> 00:09:26.399 And can I just say, this is off topic. 83 00:09:26.460 --> 00:09:27.299 She looks so young. 84 00:09:27.360 --> 00:09:28.919 Yeah, everyone's young. 85 00:09:29.279 --> 00:09:34.500 I actually did check because we were commenting on this on the thread. 86 00:09:34.559 --> 00:09:40.320 So John Barriman is 39, Eve Miles is 28. 87 00:09:40.559 --> 00:09:42.480 I think she's learning about his age. 88 00:09:42.480 --> 00:09:46.559 Okay. turned 40 on the season finale of series one. 89 00:09:46.679 --> 00:09:48.059 Oh, wow, didn't he? 90 00:09:48.120 --> 00:09:49.740 Didn't have his 40th birthday cake? 91 00:09:49.799 --> 00:09:50.580 don't know. 92 00:09:50.639 --> 00:09:52.860 Or maybe it was his 38 that happened. 93 00:09:52.919 --> 00:09:55.440 I'm just going with tbdb.com. 94 00:09:55.500 --> 00:10:00.960 And everyone else is sort of Yanto's only 25, but everyone else is in their sort of early 30s. 95 00:10:01.019 --> 00:10:05.820 You think they look young, watch Torchwood declassified and see the production team? 96 00:10:06.659 --> 00:10:09.779 I think the director is incredibly young. 97 00:10:09.840 --> 00:10:11.159 I did see a photo of him. 98 00:10:11.220 --> 00:10:14.039 So it's not just Reese, of course. 99 00:10:14.100 --> 00:10:15.480 It's Andy as well. 100 00:10:15.600 --> 00:10:39.299 And so what Russell does here is exactly what he does in Rose, which is he gives Gwen a couple of ancillary characters, so Reese and Andy, who are kind of from more recognisable TV shows, I think, who just get to talk normally about stuff. 101 00:10:39.360 --> 00:10:55.679 I love that weird conversation where she comes home late and his friend banana boat has been over and they've been drinking tea because banana boat's not drinking anymore and he's sort of settling down as we get older and more responsible. worried about diabetes. 102 00:10:55.740 --> 00:10:58.799 Yeah, all of that stuff is sort of terribly cute. 103 00:10:58.799 --> 00:11:00.960 And that is very, very rustly. 104 00:11:01.019 --> 00:11:12.720 And later on when she's obsessing about the knife after she's been retconned and she's trying to, she's sort of vaguely remembering having seen the knife before. 105 00:11:12.779 --> 00:11:17.519 There's 2 conversations 1st with Andy and then with Reese that she's just not listening to. 106 00:11:17.639 --> 00:11:23.100 And they're just sort of burbling on quite happily talking about absolutely normal things. 107 00:11:23.639 --> 00:11:29.039 And so both of them are going to serve as a sort of grounding for her for the rest of the show. 108 00:11:29.100 --> 00:11:36.179 And I think the fact that she lies to Reese in order to go and investigate Torchwood. 109 00:11:36.240 --> 00:11:42.600 That's the 1st of a whole series of lies, like that becomes a kind of thing in the show, doesn't it? 110 00:11:42.659 --> 00:11:51.000 The fact that she is freezing him out, that she's, she doesn't tell him about the torture job or anything like that, and it's only revealed a bit later. 111 00:11:51.059 --> 00:11:52.919 That's right, Nathan. 112 00:11:52.980 --> 00:12:00.179 One of the things I'd have to say about Torchwood is that in my memory anyway, that everybody's very unlikeable. 113 00:12:00.179 --> 00:12:06.059 And she becomes very unlikeable very quickly, right, at certain points in this season. 114 00:12:06.059 --> 00:12:08.879 And I don't know whether that's a good or a bad thing. 115 00:12:08.940 --> 00:12:11.519 But we're not going to talk about the rest of the season here. 116 00:12:11.580 --> 00:12:13.919 But everyone is not a likeable character. 117 00:12:14.039 --> 00:12:24.179 In fact, when Tortured comes in, like the crime scene investigators in their sort of, you know, the white suits and stuff are super annoyed, the police are annoyed. 118 00:12:24.240 --> 00:12:34.740 They stride in in that sort of stupid black SUV and their long coats and stuff, you know, like with the word torchwood written down the fact that shot of them walking in. 119 00:12:34.799 --> 00:12:38.639 And it's sort of like they've been doing this forever, but Gwen's never encountered them before. 120 00:12:38.700 --> 00:12:41.159 I just get the feeling they've only been together for a very short time. 121 00:12:41.220 --> 00:12:42.539 That's my feeling. 122 00:12:42.600 --> 00:12:50.639 Well, we do find out at the end of series 2 a little bit more about their backstory, but here they all just think they're neo from the Matrix. 123 00:12:50.700 --> 00:12:53.039 It is a very kind of period. 124 00:12:53.100 --> 00:12:56.220 Look, and perhaps a slightly dated period, look, to be honest. 125 00:12:56.340 --> 00:13:08.879 It does date itself because the genes that they wearing have those slight flares and all the male haircuts are like those degrade boy bands at the time, where the hairs down rather than up, you know what I mean? 126 00:13:08.940 --> 00:13:19.259 So I, watching this, I did kind of go, yeah, this is of 2006 or whenever, five, six, whenever it is, um, very much so. 127 00:13:19.320 --> 00:13:23.159 I just got the feeling that they hadn't been together a long time. 128 00:13:23.220 --> 00:13:27.480 Can you remember, like, this is after the season 2 finale of Doctor Who, isn't it? 129 00:13:27.539 --> 00:13:27.840 Yes. 130 00:13:27.840 --> 00:13:39.659 And so Torch would have been mentioned like quite a lot in Doctor Who and there was a buildup and then Tortured one under Yvonne had all been destroyed at Canary Wharf. 131 00:13:39.720 --> 00:13:42.539 So did we have an expectation of what this was going to be like? 132 00:13:42.600 --> 00:13:43.860 Did we think it was going to be like that? 133 00:13:43.919 --> 00:13:44.820 I can't even remember. 134 00:13:44.879 --> 00:13:57.179 Like, I'm just there going, like, was this a big shock, like, as to how with the swearing and with all the sexual stuff, at least with Owen and that sort of thing was. 135 00:13:57.240 --> 00:13:58.440 Can you remember like what you? 136 00:13:58.440 --> 00:14:01.200 I think it was pitched as being adult. 137 00:14:01.259 --> 00:14:03.059 And so I think that's what we were expecting. 138 00:14:03.120 --> 00:14:06.779 I think, you know, it was Doctor Who but post-watershed. 139 00:14:06.840 --> 00:14:11.879 And so it was very, very much kind of advertised like that and publicised like that. 140 00:14:11.940 --> 00:14:17.460 I think, like, for me, I'm sure I've said this and bored people with it before. 141 00:14:17.519 --> 00:14:20.460 This is very much like a new adventure. 142 00:14:20.519 --> 00:14:25.799 Yeah, there's early new adventures where it was Doctor Who, but adults. 143 00:14:25.860 --> 00:14:32.759 So we had to have lots of swearing and sex every 5 minutes and just to show how adult we were, but it's actually not that adult. 144 00:14:32.820 --> 00:14:37.379 It's kind of Doctor Who with some swearing, thrown in and some blood, splattering everywhere. 145 00:14:37.440 --> 00:14:43.080 It's basically the same universe, but we have to try and show that we're different by being naughty. 146 00:14:43.080 --> 00:14:55.019 Well, I think, let's get onto that a little bit later because I do think that there is something really importantly different between Doctor Who and Torchwood, that this episode does address. 147 00:14:55.080 --> 00:15:13.080 But what I want to do now is to go into hard mode and travel back in time to 1963 and say, what has Russell learned from an unearthly child about introducing a new show in the Doctor Who universe? 148 00:15:13.139 --> 00:15:15.179 to an adoring public. 149 00:15:15.240 --> 00:15:21.899 I thought you were going to say, what if Barbara came along and she was swearing like nothing else in the junkyard about where they were? 150 00:15:21.960 --> 00:15:24.960 I thought you were referring to a different type of hardness. 151 00:15:25.259 --> 00:15:29.519 So what has Russell learned from an unearthly child? 152 00:15:29.580 --> 00:15:30.059 Yeah. 153 00:15:30.179 --> 00:15:38.519 I'm gonna say that both stories introduce the phrase dimensionally transcendental at roughly the same point. 154 00:15:38.580 --> 00:15:39.720 Yep, that's true. 155 00:15:39.779 --> 00:15:46.860 Write the 1st episode yourself rather than giving it to freelance writer whose son will eventually go mad and try to sue you. 156 00:15:48.419 --> 00:15:57.179 Do does Gwen enter the Torchwood hub, like inna Barbara, enter the TARDIS, like at about the same point in time? 157 00:15:57.240 --> 00:16:01.379 And maybe the same point in time that Rose enters the TARDIS as well. 158 00:16:01.440 --> 00:16:05.580 Because remember she enters it towards the end, but not sort of completely towards the end. 159 00:16:05.639 --> 00:16:09.059 I mean, there's something just incredibly similar about this. 160 00:16:09.120 --> 00:16:11.639 We've got a time traveller who doesn't really die. 161 00:16:11.700 --> 00:16:16.080 We've got a base that's bigger on the inside than the ants. 162 00:16:16.139 --> 00:16:21.299 All right, it's underground, but it's bigger than the water tower is in Roldal Plas. 163 00:16:21.419 --> 00:16:44.700 I think also, I mean, you could argue that either Torchwood, or at least Captain Jack are analogous with Susan in the plot, like Susan is a mysterious kind of character who we're not sure who they are and they're just odd. so we follow them into the plot and they introduce us into the story. 164 00:16:45.120 --> 00:16:59.580 Yeah, what prompts Barbara and Ian to go and investigate is that Susan behaves in an unearthly way, and she has knowledge that she can't possibly have, and here we have Gwen. 165 00:16:59.639 --> 00:17:21.299 I think in one of the best scenes, like it's almost a jump scare, isn't it, where Gwen is watching them from the top floor of the car park as they revive the dead body, not revive, not resuscitate, bring back to life the dead body, and Jack just shouts up to her and says, what do you think? 166 00:17:21.359 --> 00:17:23.579 And then she realises she's been spotted. 167 00:17:23.579 --> 00:17:30.119 And it's like actually quite a shock to have her involved in that scene, given how kind of physically distant they are in it. 168 00:17:30.180 --> 00:17:31.859 But it's the same thing. 169 00:17:31.920 --> 00:17:40.380 Isn't it the same weird otherworldly knowledge that the Torchwood team have that prompts Gwen to investigate as well? 170 00:17:40.440 --> 00:18:03.240 Yeah, and of course, she follows them down to the wharf and then ultimately goes into the junkyard or into torchwood through the door, offering pizza, and then she meets a whole bunch of characters who are basically, I want to say arseholes because they are like just toying with her every single one of them. 171 00:18:03.299 --> 00:18:09.180 In fact, when Tosh and Owen burst out laughing because they can't keep it up any longer. 172 00:18:09.240 --> 00:18:12.720 They actually disrupt the incidental music. 173 00:18:12.779 --> 00:18:22.680 Like the incidental music, which is creating all this foreboding atmosphere, immediately goes away because they both lose it and kind of spoil the whole ruse. 174 00:18:24.599 --> 00:18:42.420 It's kind of interesting because the doctor, both in an unearthly child and Rose doesn't have to try to be mysterious, you know, but here, the torchwood crew, including Jack, acknowledge that they're trying to be mysterious. and failing. 175 00:18:42.480 --> 00:18:56.819 And Jack's response to that failure is to turn it into like a setup for a porn film of, well, she's going to give me the pizza and I'm going to say I don't have any money and what are we going to do about this? 176 00:18:56.880 --> 00:18:59.700 And thankfully something else then happens to distract us from that. 177 00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:02.160 I don't think it was porn. 178 00:19:02.220 --> 00:19:04.019 Didn't he say you had a punchline coming? 179 00:19:04.079 --> 00:19:05.819 I don't know about porn. 180 00:19:05.880 --> 00:19:17.400 That is a porn setup, but I think maybe halfway through the scene, Russell realised what he was doing. he was going to like, oh, he's going to have a whole punchline because I just realised I was doing a porn setup. 181 00:19:17.460 --> 00:19:22.319 Which, of course, then carries on with Owen later on with that couple outside. 182 00:19:24.359 --> 00:19:28.140 Jack is mysterious in the way that the doctor's mysterious, though. 183 00:19:28.200 --> 00:19:30.960 I mean, he has a title, the way that the doctor does. 184 00:19:30.960 --> 00:19:33.599 And he does have a mysterious past. 185 00:19:33.660 --> 00:19:58.200 And I think we're supposed to understand that when Jack doesn't report for duty in January 1941, I think we're supposed to understand that that's because he goes off with the doctor in the empty child, but it's possible that it's the 2nd time round in 1941 that he disappears as well. 186 00:19:58.680 --> 00:20:02.339 Or that it's the original Captain Jack. 187 00:20:02.400 --> 00:20:09.900 Oh, yes, there's... like, I mean, like, yeah, it's repeated. like that's still a mystery, which Jack is it? 188 00:20:09.960 --> 00:20:10.559 Yeah. 189 00:20:10.619 --> 00:20:13.200 And that is setting it up because that is later this season. 190 00:20:13.259 --> 00:20:13.980 Yes, isn't it? 191 00:20:14.039 --> 00:20:14.940 So that's clearly planned. 192 00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:23.819 And you know, that, I think, is Russell setting this series up to be, yes, a Doctor Who spinoff, but also its own thing. 193 00:20:23.880 --> 00:20:35.099 So if you've watched Doctor Who, you have an explanation for that, but then by the end of this season, as you say, James, we're given an internal explanation so that you don't have to watch Doctor Who. 194 00:20:44.819 --> 00:20:46.980 It's funny, isn't it? 195 00:20:47.039 --> 00:20:56.519 Because the world that they exist in is very much that world of 2005, 2006, when Doctor Who was just the most massive thing on television. 196 00:20:56.579 --> 00:21:09.779 And so in the bar when Jack drugs Gwen's drink, they're having a conversation not only about the Christmas invasion, but also army of ghosts and doomsday. 197 00:21:09.839 --> 00:21:14.640 And so they've seen all of the Doctor Who that we've seen as well. 198 00:21:14.700 --> 00:21:17.460 They exist in the same world as us. 199 00:21:17.579 --> 00:21:35.700 There's a great character moment, which is just perfectly rustly too, where Gwen says, oh, you know, my husband thinks it's LSD and the water supply and Jack says your husband's an idiot and her reply is, oh, so you've met him then, which I just think is absolutely adorable. 200 00:21:35.700 --> 00:21:41.039 And not that mean spirited, you know, because I think that we love... 201 00:21:41.400 --> 00:21:45.119 I think we already know that Reese is a kind of loveable oaf. 202 00:21:45.180 --> 00:21:46.140 Do you know what I mean? 203 00:21:46.200 --> 00:21:51.660 Like, he's very sweet and likeable and a bit like uncomplicated. 204 00:21:51.720 --> 00:21:57.240 It's also the way she delivers the line with his kind of smile, like I'm just, you know, playing. 205 00:21:57.299 --> 00:21:58.380 I don't hate my boyfriend. 206 00:21:58.440 --> 00:22:00.359 I just, you know, I'm just joshing. 207 00:22:00.420 --> 00:22:03.720 There is a bit of flirting in that scene, though. 208 00:22:03.779 --> 00:22:07.619 There's a lot of her looking at his mouth and all of that sort of thing. 209 00:22:07.680 --> 00:22:10.200 Like they are definitely kind of flirting at that point. 210 00:22:10.259 --> 00:22:16.740 Well, I guess there's subtle setups for what is to come, but you need her to be a likeable character in order to want to continue on watching. 211 00:22:16.799 --> 00:22:24.240 But also, you know, as Doctor Who fans, you've got all those links back to the show and you've already seen the doctor's hand and all that sort of stuff. 212 00:22:24.299 --> 00:22:24.720 Yeah, yeah. 213 00:22:24.720 --> 00:22:35.579 And I think that scene is also really important too because, like, it's setting up this crew too, because, I mean, he talks about no one is allowed to take out alien tech and then we get cutaways too. well. 214 00:22:35.640 --> 00:22:38.220 Yeah, we're all we're all subtly lying to each other. 215 00:22:39.119 --> 00:22:56.460 Something I find as an interesting parallel in that scene in the bar is in Rose, when Rose is following the doctor back to the TARDIS after the hand attacks him in her flat, he says to her, forget me, go home. 216 00:22:56.519 --> 00:22:58.140 Yeah, okay. 217 00:22:58.200 --> 00:22:59.700 Now here's the thing. 218 00:22:59.759 --> 00:23:02.759 The doctor, at this stage, doesn't enforce it. 219 00:23:02.819 --> 00:23:06.660 Jack, on the other hand, is enforcing it. 220 00:23:06.720 --> 00:23:08.400 Jack is not only saying forget me. 221 00:23:08.460 --> 00:23:21.240 He's saying, I'm going to make you forget me, but in such a way, it's this morally gray thing of, you know, he's drugging Gwen, but at the same time, he is doing it to protect her because when she says, I will tell someone else. 222 00:23:21.299 --> 00:23:23.880 He's like, do you want to involve someone you care about? 223 00:23:24.420 --> 00:23:26.940 And I like that it's morally gray. 224 00:23:27.420 --> 00:23:33.299 At least it's morally gray, unlike the other drugging that happens around this time in the episode. 225 00:23:33.359 --> 00:23:34.980 Well, let's get to that in a second. 226 00:23:35.099 --> 00:23:41.279 I think what's interesting is that both Rose and Gwen are actually initially rejected. 227 00:23:41.339 --> 00:23:57.299 So what we used to, you know, that sort of Joseph Campbell Monomith thing, where someone is special or chosen or something, and they end up assuming the mantle of a hero at the end of the episode, and both rose and everything changes are a bit like that. 228 00:23:57.359 --> 00:24:09.960 But instead of Rose and Gwen being reluctant, like initially rejecting the idea, but being forced to nevertheless adopt the role, they're actually rejected. 229 00:24:10.019 --> 00:24:22.559 They're actually told no, and they persist, nevertheless, and then they kind of show their value to, you know, the doctor and Jack respectively and end up being invited on board. 230 00:24:22.619 --> 00:24:27.839 So I think that that's, you know, that's another beat that the 2 shows have in common. 231 00:24:33.960 --> 00:24:37.319 All right, well, let's talk about what distinguishes. 232 00:24:37.319 --> 00:24:42.299 Torchwood from Doctor Who. 233 00:24:42.359 --> 00:24:58.079 And I think that in addition to the fact that we open on a corpse and that there's a lot of blood and so on, there is what we've started to talk about, which is the problematic behaviour of the characters. 234 00:24:58.140 --> 00:25:00.660 So I want to talk about Tosh. 235 00:25:00.720 --> 00:25:04.859 She seems to steal a scanner and she, why? 236 00:25:04.920 --> 00:25:07.380 And she just scans a book in like you do? 237 00:25:07.440 --> 00:25:09.359 And a book that's in the public domain. 238 00:25:09.480 --> 00:25:13.740 She is a massive nerd and she doesn't know at the public domain. is true. 239 00:25:13.799 --> 00:25:15.299 So it's a tale of 2 cities. 240 00:25:15.359 --> 00:25:16.920 I think she's reading it. 241 00:25:16.980 --> 00:25:19.500 Like, I think that she's reading the book. 242 00:25:19.559 --> 00:25:24.839 So she scans the book, but as she sees the pages flick past. 243 00:25:25.559 --> 00:25:30.059 Yeah, yeah, I think we're getting sort of reactions from her as if she's reading the book. 244 00:25:30.119 --> 00:25:32.940 But it is the nerdiest possible thing to take home. 245 00:25:33.000 --> 00:25:37.079 So Susie's taking home the resurrection glove to resurrect a fly. 246 00:25:37.140 --> 00:25:39.180 Yeah, she kills a flying resurrector fly. 247 00:25:39.240 --> 00:25:42.059 We learn that she is doing other things with the respect. 248 00:25:42.119 --> 00:25:46.619 But at this point in the episode, it's like, oh, wow, resurrecting a flight, oh, reading a book. 249 00:25:46.740 --> 00:25:48.900 What's the Anto doing? 250 00:25:48.960 --> 00:25:50.279 Oh, just cleaning up after them. 251 00:25:50.339 --> 00:25:50.640 Okay. 252 00:25:50.700 --> 00:25:52.740 Yeah, yeah, he doesn't do it because he's a good boy. 253 00:25:52.799 --> 00:25:54.059 He doesn't... 254 00:25:54.839 --> 00:26:05.700 But, Owen, I think, I think, well, so the Owen thing, like, there's a problem with the Owen thing, and it's a shame because it's nearly funny. 255 00:26:05.759 --> 00:26:19.859 Like the idea that Owen is bisexual and is clearly excited to have both of the members of the couple lusting after him, although... 256 00:26:20.339 --> 00:26:28.380 Sorry, I'm laughing because I'm, I'm just thinking of that guy's words in the episode, like they both want poems so bad. 257 00:26:28.440 --> 00:26:30.059 I'm gonna have you or whatever it is. 258 00:26:30.119 --> 00:26:31.259 I'm going to have him first. 259 00:26:31.680 --> 00:26:38.579 Burn actually doesn't play it as if he's into being kissed by the guy. 260 00:26:38.640 --> 00:26:45.119 He goes rigid and stuff like that, but definitely the script has him go, quick, let's get a taxi. 261 00:26:45.180 --> 00:26:48.900 And so clearly he's going to go home with both of them and have sex with both of them. 262 00:26:49.019 --> 00:27:02.819 And the issue is that there aren't really sprays that you can spray on yourself that make you irresistible to other people and make them definitely want you to have sex. 263 00:27:02.880 --> 00:27:19.200 And if there were, we don't know whether that would be right or wrong, because the whole thing really depends on, they're going to regret it afterwards or not, they're both enthusiastically giving consent, but in what circumstances it isn't like drugging people. 264 00:27:19.259 --> 00:27:24.420 I mean, it's very deliberately a thing he sprays on himself and not something that he gives them. 265 00:27:24.480 --> 00:27:29.460 But I think it's it doesn't work and you could never, ever do it in a 1000000 years now. 266 00:27:29.519 --> 00:27:31.859 Yeah, still, it's still space roofing. 267 00:27:31.920 --> 00:27:33.119 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 268 00:27:33.180 --> 00:27:34.019 Yeah, yeah. 269 00:27:34.079 --> 00:27:34.799 And I think that's it. 270 00:27:34.859 --> 00:27:43.140 I think Russell has sort of considered, okay, oh, what if there was pretty much an alien roofie. 271 00:27:43.200 --> 00:27:51.059 Oh, but no, I can't have him roofie someone, but what if he roofies himself and sort of writes that down and then it gets filmed and then it gets editing? 272 00:27:51.119 --> 00:28:00.480 And I like to think at some point during screening, someone went, oh dear, no, this still hasn't quite, this hasn't quite hit what we wanted, but it's too late now. 273 00:28:00.539 --> 00:28:02.400 We still have to give bird a scene. 274 00:28:02.460 --> 00:28:06.299 Because you're still having those other characters be influenced by it. 275 00:28:06.359 --> 00:28:10.380 And after that effect wears off, are they going to feel like they're being violated? 276 00:28:10.440 --> 00:28:12.119 Yeah, that's exactly. 277 00:28:12.180 --> 00:28:18.599 And what but what if they went, wow, that was absolutely incredibly hot, darling, let's pick up some rando again. 278 00:28:18.660 --> 00:28:21.240 You know, like because it never happens. 279 00:28:21.299 --> 00:28:32.700 Like, you know, what if Owen's consequence was during the course of the season, we find out he is now dating this couple, but actually really doesn't want to, but they're both into him, even without that stuff. 280 00:28:33.180 --> 00:28:41.819 You know, that that's a consequence that gives those minor characters power in the situation. 281 00:28:41.880 --> 00:28:54.119 But I kind of get the impression that it's a bit like the burping bin in Rose in that. okay, we have to include this now because it's part of the plot that let's never speak of this again. 282 00:28:54.180 --> 00:28:56.700 No, the burping bin is brilliant. 283 00:28:57.539 --> 00:29:00.240 I didn't say it wasn't a great thing. 284 00:29:00.299 --> 00:29:03.059 I said the production team were embarrassed by it. 285 00:29:03.240 --> 00:29:04.200 Actually, sorry. 286 00:29:04.259 --> 00:29:05.700 Probably not the burping bin. 287 00:29:05.759 --> 00:29:07.740 The highly plastic Mickey. 288 00:29:07.799 --> 00:29:10.619 Yeah, he is a bit too plastic at that point. 289 00:29:10.680 --> 00:29:18.779 So, I mean, it works in the sense that we're trying to show that they're kind of horrible people and they're doing the wrong thing. 290 00:29:18.839 --> 00:29:32.099 And remember that the objection that Gwen has just raised a torchwood is that how do we know they're not going to use the alien tech they get for their own benefit and then we see them doing exactly that? 291 00:29:32.279 --> 00:29:46.140 And so at the end of the episode, you know, we not only lock up the knife and the resurrection glove and declare that it's never to be used again, but they shamefacedly hand in the scanner and the sex spray. 292 00:29:46.859 --> 00:29:48.599 That's all very true. 293 00:29:48.720 --> 00:29:57.960 And I think it's also setting the show apart from Doctor Who in the fact that we are going to have alien technology that we can use, like because it has to come to us. 294 00:29:58.079 --> 00:30:13.920 And also the fact that we are going to be in adult situations, in bars, et cetera, with bar brawls and like an earlier in the episode, but also, you know, prepared to go out to get dates or whatever we need to do, you know? 295 00:30:13.980 --> 00:30:16.380 Whereas that doesn't really happen in Doctor Who. 296 00:30:16.440 --> 00:30:18.420 Don't you think that bar brawl? 297 00:30:18.480 --> 00:30:25.680 So that bar brawl happens and there's sort of some comedy chats between Andy and Gwen about what CSI Cardiff would look like. 298 00:30:25.740 --> 00:30:47.579 But in that, in that scene, she gets hit and she falls and hits her head and it's then after that that all of the stuff happens in the hospital as if she's now in a kind of slightly odd state where her experiences can't be relied on, you know, she's had a blow to the head and then all of this weird magical stuff starts happening. 299 00:30:47.640 --> 00:30:49.440 Don't you like how magical it is? 300 00:30:49.500 --> 00:30:53.940 Like she has to go into the sealed off section a bit like Paul McGann in the telly movie, right? 301 00:30:54.000 --> 00:31:03.059 where nobody else is supposed to be around, but, you know, still the orderly comes up and, and, and that whole sequence with the Star Trek alien masking. 302 00:31:03.119 --> 00:31:04.440 I'm there going, really, just run. 303 00:31:04.500 --> 00:31:05.640 Just run away. 304 00:31:05.759 --> 00:31:09.839 So this is another thing that actually it shares with Rose. 305 00:31:09.900 --> 00:31:14.880 Remember that the autons are in rows because they look like students wearing masks. 306 00:31:14.940 --> 00:31:16.740 You know, they're students, they're being silly. 307 00:31:16.799 --> 00:31:20.039 That's rose's theory that she comes up with in the lift with the doctor. 308 00:31:20.099 --> 00:31:29.759 And that's the reason why Russell had humanoid aliens so that they wouldn't necessarily, definitely be aliens until it was sort of revealed later. 309 00:31:29.819 --> 00:31:31.680 Here you've got the weevil. 310 00:31:31.740 --> 00:31:35.400 It turns out this weevil is called Janet. we know that? 311 00:31:35.519 --> 00:31:37.440 that. later. 312 00:31:37.500 --> 00:31:40.740 Oh, we did fight it out later after Janet Fielding. 313 00:31:40.799 --> 00:31:47.160 And it's we do have that thing where it's a mask you're wearing a mask and stuff. 314 00:31:47.220 --> 00:31:49.740 So it looks like a person because it's sort of distant. 315 00:31:49.799 --> 00:31:57.299 It's wearing coveralls as we come closer to it, then we start to rationalise it by saying it's sort of a fabulous animatronic mask. 316 00:31:57.359 --> 00:32:00.720 In fact, it's merely an adequate animatronic mask. 317 00:32:00.779 --> 00:32:02.759 But, you know. 318 00:32:03.000 --> 00:32:15.660 I think it actually holds up better than some of the CGI, like Jack standing in front of the fountain towards the end, like, you know, when he's come up in the lift, like I kind of looked at that and I went, it's a bit ropey. 319 00:32:15.720 --> 00:32:16.500 Yeah, yeah. 320 00:32:16.559 --> 00:32:19.740 I mean, this was Doctor Who's 1st production in HD. 321 00:32:19.799 --> 00:32:23.460 But some of the CG looks like it's been done in standard death. 322 00:32:23.519 --> 00:32:24.599 Right. 323 00:32:24.599 --> 00:32:26.039 I think you're right there, Brendan. 324 00:32:26.039 --> 00:32:27.599 As well as agreeing with you, Todd. 325 00:32:27.660 --> 00:32:34.920 Jack coming up in the lift at the end, to flash forward for a moment, actually really breaks the tension for me because it looks hilarious. 326 00:32:34.980 --> 00:32:43.380 Like, it just looks like he's been slapped on there, like Anthony Ainley, behind Tom Baker in the Pharos project in Magopolis. 327 00:32:43.500 --> 00:32:48.000 But there's a, there's another bit where Jack and Gwen are 1st taking the lift up. 328 00:32:48.000 --> 00:32:57.180 And it's just this, it's this minor thing and it's just that Indira Varma's eye line does not at all match where the lift is when she's looking up and waving. 329 00:32:57.180 --> 00:33:00.420 And again, she looks like she's waving at their asses. 330 00:33:00.480 --> 00:33:02.099 Yeah, exactly. 331 00:33:02.160 --> 00:33:05.400 In terms of the barber all and then the hospital. 332 00:33:05.460 --> 00:33:09.180 Something I found so interesting about that, and again, in comparison with Rose. 333 00:33:09.240 --> 00:33:17.759 So in Rose, Rose works in a shop and she and Mickey go out to a restaurant and later Clive and his family go out shopping. 334 00:33:17.819 --> 00:33:22.559 So these are all sort of spaces for recreation, right? 335 00:33:22.619 --> 00:33:24.839 And family recreation in particular. 336 00:33:24.900 --> 00:33:29.279 Whereas here we get a pub brawl, which is not appropriate for families. 337 00:33:29.339 --> 00:33:33.660 And indeed, most pubs, you know, children generally aren't there. 338 00:33:33.720 --> 00:33:38.160 And we also get a hospital and no one goes to a hospital for recreation. 339 00:33:38.220 --> 00:33:40.619 You know, you only go for a hospital if something's wrong. 340 00:33:40.680 --> 00:33:44.039 Even in the outdoor scenes, it's constantly raining. 341 00:33:44.099 --> 00:33:48.539 That does give us some comedy when Andy turns up and he's like, I have walked. 342 00:33:48.599 --> 00:33:50.160 I have bloody walked. 343 00:33:50.759 --> 00:33:59.400 But even the environments of this are much harsher than the real world environments of Doctor Who. 344 00:33:59.460 --> 00:34:03.960 In fact, they're kind of police procedural environments, aren't they? 345 00:34:04.019 --> 00:34:14.340 We go from the pub brawl to the police station, to a crime scene, to a hospital, like all of those places are just places where police procedurals happen. 346 00:34:14.400 --> 00:34:22.139 Whereas Rose is set in the sort of environments that a soap opera might be set in. 347 00:34:22.199 --> 00:34:27.239 So it's a different type of TV that's sort of being riffed on and a kind of more adult. 348 00:34:27.300 --> 00:34:32.280 Uh, you know, something targeted in adults more than a soap opera is, I guess. 349 00:34:32.340 --> 00:34:46.199 But I guess it's a real world environment in a sense up until the point they get into the to the tortured hub, which is like, you know, leading up to when we get into the TARDIS, either in an earthly child or in rows itself. 350 00:34:46.260 --> 00:34:51.900 The parallels between the hub and the TARDIS are really, really strong. 351 00:34:51.900 --> 00:35:08.219 And I think that when Russell kind of takes control over the show again in series three, His immediate instinct is to get rid of the giant science fiction superbase that he's put in the show because it's a little bit crappy. 352 00:35:08.280 --> 00:35:19.980 It's a little bit kind of unrealistic and a bit crab and it fights against the show kind of being gritty and serious because it adds that level of fantasy. fake tube station. 353 00:35:20.039 --> 00:35:20.639 Yeah. 354 00:35:20.760 --> 00:35:22.260 I mean, I think the design is great. 355 00:35:22.320 --> 00:35:31.860 I have to say the design, you know, with all the tiles and all of the um, circular corridors and all of that stuff looks, it just looks terrific. 356 00:35:31.920 --> 00:35:40.440 That scene where Jack walks away after putting Susie's body in the drawer and walks away and that seems to be computer generated something. 357 00:35:40.500 --> 00:35:43.380 It is because I was watching it going, yeah, that's not real. 358 00:35:43.440 --> 00:35:45.960 But it is very beautifully designed, I think. 359 00:35:46.079 --> 00:35:46.739 It's a good look. 360 00:35:46.800 --> 00:35:52.019 I think everything above and around him is, but the drawers are real. 361 00:35:52.199 --> 00:36:05.099 The drawers were practical and the floor is practical, but everything else was a map painting. right It's always interesting seeing, I think, in television series like the pilot episode or the 1st episode compared to what they actually do. 362 00:36:05.099 --> 00:36:05.400 Yeah. 363 00:36:05.400 --> 00:36:13.199 Because Ianto's little desk and his corridor to come in and the lift going up are things that we don't we never see again. 364 00:36:13.260 --> 00:36:15.900 It's like in DS9 with the runabouts going to Bajor. 365 00:36:15.960 --> 00:36:28.139 Like, in the 1st couple of series, you spend 500 hours going to Bajor, and then by the time you get to the last 2 seasons of that show, it's like we're getting the runabout cut to, oh, we've already arrived on Bajor. like it's like shortcut. 366 00:36:35.280 --> 00:36:38.159 In Diravama, I really like. 367 00:36:38.219 --> 00:36:39.599 Didn't she do Rome? 368 00:36:39.659 --> 00:36:41.400 Yeah, wasn't she killed off in that? 369 00:36:41.460 --> 00:36:48.599 Yeah, she seems to be the guest actress of choice to have a substantial part in shows and then bite the bullet. 370 00:36:48.659 --> 00:36:50.880 Is she also in Game of Thrones? 371 00:36:50.940 --> 00:36:54.360 Yes, and she also met an unfortunate fate there eventually. 372 00:36:54.420 --> 00:36:56.940 I don't remember if she got killed or was shipped off to somewhere. 373 00:36:57.000 --> 00:36:59.699 She's locked up in a dungeon to basically die. 374 00:36:59.760 --> 00:37:00.599 Yes, that's right. 375 00:37:00.659 --> 00:37:09.599 I think Susie Costello's death also is an example of a Doctor Who program doing something that someone else did first. 376 00:37:09.659 --> 00:37:12.119 So just a few years before this spook started. 377 00:37:13.380 --> 00:37:21.599 And early on in Spooks, you have Lisa Faulkner, who was a big household name, you know, she'd had a leading role in Brookside and Holby City. 378 00:37:21.659 --> 00:37:27.239 She was one of the leads in the 1st 2 episodes, and then in the 2nd episode, she is suddenly killed, her character. 379 00:37:27.300 --> 00:37:28.920 Shall we say how? 380 00:37:28.980 --> 00:37:30.719 That's brutal. 381 00:37:30.780 --> 00:37:34.440 Has her face dunked in boiling oil and then shot through the head. 382 00:37:34.500 --> 00:37:38.460 Oh, by Space Captain Hugo Lang, by the way. 383 00:37:38.519 --> 00:37:39.480 Oh my god. 384 00:37:39.539 --> 00:37:40.739 He sounds like a bad person. 385 00:37:40.800 --> 00:37:43.500 Oh, I must be awful because I'm laughing about it now. 386 00:37:43.559 --> 00:37:45.719 This isn't a deep fryer incident, isn't it? 387 00:37:45.780 --> 00:37:46.739 Yes, the deep fryer. 388 00:37:46.800 --> 00:37:47.159 Okay. 389 00:37:47.219 --> 00:37:48.239 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 390 00:37:48.300 --> 00:37:50.699 Well, well, Matthew McFadgeon looks on. 391 00:37:51.360 --> 00:38:05.340 I've sort of noticed since then it's not uncommon for a show to introduce a character early on who is then expected to be part of the main cast and then killed off. 392 00:38:05.400 --> 00:38:06.000 Yeah. 393 00:38:06.000 --> 00:38:11.460 And so, you know, we have um, Helen in Spooks, we have Susie here. 394 00:38:11.519 --> 00:38:16.320 We have Grace when Chris Chipnell takes over Doctor Who. 395 00:38:16.380 --> 00:38:16.559 Yeah. 396 00:38:16.559 --> 00:38:23.219 And it seems to sort of be a shorthand for saying, we're not screwing around here and anyone is fair game. 397 00:38:23.280 --> 00:38:27.119 It really means everyone else is safe though, really, at that point, doesn't it? 398 00:38:27.179 --> 00:38:27.719 Yes. 399 00:38:27.719 --> 00:38:30.119 It's like, well, we have the other one. 400 00:38:30.179 --> 00:38:31.920 Yeah, it has the opposite effect, yeah. 401 00:38:31.980 --> 00:38:36.960 Yeah, yeah, it's kind of like, we're telling you we're very adult, but we're very sorry and we're not going to do it again. 402 00:38:37.440 --> 00:38:42.239 Well, not until the end of the 2nd year. that's right. 403 00:38:42.300 --> 00:38:58.800 This is the thing that, obviously, Joss Whedon wanted to do in episode one of Buffy, which was have the character in the opening credits and then kill him off, the best friend character whose name I can't even remember, but they couldn't afford to do it in the credits. 404 00:38:58.860 --> 00:39:04.920 Here, she's in the radio times and everything, and she is in the opening credits to episode one in Dear Obama, and she's a big name. 405 00:39:04.980 --> 00:39:07.679 I mean, we're advertising having Indira Vama. 406 00:39:07.739 --> 00:39:09.420 So we don't expect that at all. 407 00:39:09.539 --> 00:39:10.199 I think. 408 00:39:10.260 --> 00:39:11.760 Was it Jesse? 409 00:39:11.820 --> 00:39:12.960 Jesse, that's right. 410 00:39:13.019 --> 00:39:14.039 It was Jesse. 411 00:39:14.099 --> 00:39:15.780 No one gets mentioned again. 412 00:39:15.840 --> 00:39:19.079 No, but she's in the opening credits, and you just think that she's going to be a part of the team. 413 00:39:19.139 --> 00:39:21.900 Yeah, she's in all the publicity photos for the season. 414 00:39:21.960 --> 00:39:24.840 Like, it's a 6 shot with Eve as well. 415 00:39:25.500 --> 00:39:36.179 And of course, she will come back later in the season, and I think part of the reason for that as well is that being a very good episode, they keep killing Susie, was that that meant she was around for late production blocks. 416 00:39:36.300 --> 00:39:37.500 Right, right. 417 00:39:52.019 --> 00:40:00.059 The thing that's here, the thing that makes this show more adult than Doctor Who, I think, is the question of death. 418 00:40:00.119 --> 00:40:08.940 You have that scene which is wonderfully awkward, where they run out of things to say to the revivified corpse to poor John Tucker. 419 00:40:09.000 --> 00:40:17.639 They run out of things to say like a minute into the 2 minutes that he's got and they're trying to kill time and work out what to do and what to say next. 420 00:40:17.699 --> 00:40:21.480 And the question is, what did you experience? 421 00:40:21.539 --> 00:40:23.280 What was death like? 422 00:40:23.340 --> 00:40:29.039 And he suddenly realises there was nothing and those are his last words. 423 00:40:29.099 --> 00:40:31.739 Oh my god, there's nothing. 424 00:40:31.800 --> 00:40:45.179 And so when Susie comes back, there's that amazingly memorable scene where she also talks about the subjective experience of death and there isn't one. 425 00:40:45.239 --> 00:40:46.260 There's nothing. 426 00:40:46.320 --> 00:40:48.840 And so death is absolutely final. 427 00:40:48.900 --> 00:41:08.460 And this is not something that you can look at in Doctor Who in a lot of detail, but it is something that's really, really important to Russell, and it is that episode 6 of cucumber thing, where we actually get to see one of the characters die and we get to experience what he experiences. 428 00:41:08.519 --> 00:41:18.900 We see it from his point of view as his brain is so sort of damaged and starved of oxygen that sort of random images start to come up and then eventually it just blacks out and there's nothing. 429 00:41:18.960 --> 00:41:21.179 So there's nothing after death. 430 00:41:21.239 --> 00:41:28.380 And so this show absolutely faces that head on and is essentially about that. 431 00:41:28.440 --> 00:41:40.320 And so when you have, you know, you're in this show where there's a magical glove that can raise people from the dead, but there's no magical afterlife or anything like that when people die, they just die. 432 00:41:40.380 --> 00:41:46.440 And that bleakness underlies it in a way that never underlies Doctor Who. 433 00:41:46.500 --> 00:41:51.000 But also the fact that she chooses to commit suicide. 434 00:41:51.059 --> 00:42:00.960 And you see that happening and that doesn't happen in Doctor Who unless the character is really sacrificing themselves to save everybody else from a menace, you know? 435 00:42:01.019 --> 00:42:02.280 like, I don't know. 436 00:42:02.340 --> 00:42:04.440 Yeah, like self-sacrificed, right? 437 00:42:04.500 --> 00:42:07.559 Like, highly in, uh, voyage of the dad. 438 00:42:07.619 --> 00:42:09.659 Or PEX in Paradise Towers. 439 00:42:09.719 --> 00:42:10.500 Why? 440 00:42:10.679 --> 00:42:11.639 Why am I thinking of that? 441 00:42:11.639 --> 00:42:13.860 From the ridiculous to the sublime? 442 00:42:14.400 --> 00:42:28.980 But here, she's deciding that she doesn't want to have her memory wiped and just go back to mandana's existence, she's just, she's choosing to shoot herself, which I just found really disturbing and I don't know if it's the right decision. 443 00:42:29.039 --> 00:42:32.820 Like I kind of was sitting there going, oh, do I actually buy it? 444 00:42:33.000 --> 00:42:35.579 She did also kill a bunch of people. 445 00:42:35.699 --> 00:42:46.199 So even though she was like she had planned to just go and disappear somewhere so she would never be caught, there's Jack, she killed people, you know. 446 00:42:46.260 --> 00:42:53.280 It does sort of then bring up, you know, the vetting process of the employees of Torchwood by Jack, you know? 447 00:42:53.340 --> 00:42:57.179 Has he done any sort of psychiatric testing on them? 448 00:42:57.239 --> 00:43:03.539 Psychometric testing. psychometric testing to see if they're prone to doing murders. 449 00:43:03.900 --> 00:43:06.960 Yes, but that's the effect of the glove. 450 00:43:07.079 --> 00:43:07.619 Isn't it? 451 00:43:07.679 --> 00:43:09.420 Like it's the effect of the resurrection glove. 452 00:43:09.539 --> 00:43:15.420 She has the glove on and she gets off on the power of bringing people back to life. 453 00:43:15.420 --> 00:43:23.579 And she has that whole speech about how being able to resurrect people from the dead would be a game changer, it would be hugely important and stuff. 454 00:43:23.639 --> 00:43:32.820 But even when she revives the fly, There's a really weird look on her face as if she is in some way being affected by that power. 455 00:43:32.880 --> 00:43:34.559 Okay, I see what you're saying. 456 00:43:34.619 --> 00:43:42.480 The more she uses, the more it amplifies, the more it wants you to kill like something bigger and that sort of thing, which I don't actually quite get from the episode. 457 00:43:42.539 --> 00:43:45.960 Like, you've brought that up, but I just didn't get that at all. 458 00:43:46.019 --> 00:43:52.980 It's, to me, it sort of just went from a fly to, yeah, we can talk about killing all these other people, but I just didn't quite buy. 459 00:43:53.099 --> 00:43:54.960 The dialogue tries to reach for it. 460 00:43:55.019 --> 00:43:59.519 She says something about every time I use it, it grants me more access. 461 00:43:59.579 --> 00:44:02.159 I gain more sort of ability. 462 00:44:02.219 --> 00:44:11.159 Like, it's like it's allowing me in, but I don't think they necessarily land that. think it's pretty incredible. 463 00:44:11.219 --> 00:44:17.400 She gets a couple of quite long speeches in that final scene and she absolutely nails them. 464 00:44:17.460 --> 00:44:18.480 She's really really good. 465 00:44:18.539 --> 00:44:22.739 Oh, I'm thinking absolute terror from Gwen. 466 00:44:22.860 --> 00:44:24.539 I think that's too much, actually. 467 00:44:24.599 --> 00:44:26.460 It's hard to watch. 468 00:44:26.519 --> 00:44:28.860 Yeah, that thing where she thinks she's going to be short. 469 00:44:28.920 --> 00:44:29.880 I think is awful. 470 00:44:30.000 --> 00:44:38.880 Yeah, it's really, I mean, that's, and again, something that's set set apart from Doctor Who, you would never linger on that much torment of a character. 471 00:44:38.940 --> 00:44:42.420 You know, they are your identification character in the episode. 472 00:44:42.599 --> 00:44:44.460 Yeah, absolutely. 473 00:44:44.579 --> 00:44:53.099 Like, something you don't see in Doctor Who, for instance, is the sort of stereotypical idea of someone's holding a gun on you. 474 00:44:53.159 --> 00:44:55.260 Well, you give them a karate shop and they drop the gun. 475 00:44:55.320 --> 00:45:04.019 Like Doctor Who is against imitable violence, but it's also against sort of imitable self-endangerment. 476 00:45:04.079 --> 00:45:15.239 You know, it doesn't, Let the heroes do things that, um, if a child tried them in a dangerous situation, could lead to something worse. 477 00:45:15.300 --> 00:45:33.420 So I agree with you there, James, in that that scene between Susie and Gwen is one of the more adult scenes of the episode because of not only Gwen's reaction, but actually Susie's awkwardness, which is rummaging in her bag for the gun. 478 00:45:33.480 --> 00:45:34.860 Yeah, I'm so sorry. 479 00:45:34.920 --> 00:45:35.400 Just a second. 480 00:45:35.460 --> 00:45:40.079 I've just got to, I've just, I've just got to get my gun handbags. am I right? 481 00:45:40.260 --> 00:46:02.099 It kind of goes a long way to saying these characters are flawed and that Susie is not evil in the sense that, you know, when they're talking about serial killers earlier and this really nasty knife and what have you, we're not encouraged to have any sympathy for whoever's doing this. 482 00:46:02.159 --> 00:46:12.780 And then all of a sudden, Susie is scared and awkward and um, pleading with Gwen to understand why she did what she did. 483 00:46:12.960 --> 00:46:16.380 And Gwen can't remember what she did. 484 00:46:16.440 --> 00:46:21.179 You know, it's it's this incredibly tense and well-acted scene. 485 00:46:21.239 --> 00:46:27.659 And I do remember at the time, just going, I'm really going to miss Susie. 486 00:46:27.900 --> 00:46:29.159 Yeah, yeah. 487 00:46:29.219 --> 00:46:31.739 She gets the big speech as well. 488 00:46:31.800 --> 00:46:45.119 So the thing that Doctor Who keeps doing in this period is talking about the wondrous things that the doctor in Rose C when they go out into the universe in the Christmas invasion last week. 489 00:46:45.179 --> 00:46:54.780 There's a hilarious scene where Mickey goes on about how much he enjoys hearing these stories about how wonderful and great it is in the TARDIS. 490 00:46:54.840 --> 00:47:01.380 And we've seen that all the way back, you know, to boomtown when we hear about woman wept and all of that sort of stuff. 491 00:47:01.440 --> 00:47:05.340 The world, the universe is a magical and wondrous place. 492 00:47:05.400 --> 00:47:08.219 And she alludes to that doesn't she? 493 00:47:08.280 --> 00:47:14.639 She actually says, maybe there's better stuff out there, brilliant stuff, beautiful stuff. 494 00:47:14.699 --> 00:47:16.800 Just they don't come here. 495 00:47:16.800 --> 00:47:24.059 And so that, and Doctor Who at the time doesn't show us that stuff necessarily, partly because we don't have the budget. 496 00:47:24.059 --> 00:47:28.500 And also because Doctor Who is an adventure show where we're always being threatened by monsters and stuff. 497 00:47:28.559 --> 00:47:32.880 So most of the time, they're not just revelling and how beautiful everything is. 498 00:47:33.179 --> 00:47:44.099 But it's something that Russell has taken from the original show with all of its Florana speeches and stuff and has made that a motivator for Rose to travel with the doctor. 499 00:47:44.159 --> 00:47:45.960 Here, we don't get any of that. 500 00:47:46.019 --> 00:47:48.599 That's not the motivator, and in fact, it's the opposite. 501 00:47:48.659 --> 00:47:52.679 Everything that comes from outside of earth is terrible. 502 00:47:52.800 --> 00:47:55.199 You know, she just says it's shit. 503 00:47:55.260 --> 00:47:58.800 It's weevils and stuff, you know, that's what we get. 504 00:47:58.860 --> 00:48:06.059 And I don't know whether that long term is such a great premise. 505 00:48:06.179 --> 00:48:09.059 It really sounds kind of miserable to me. 506 00:48:09.119 --> 00:48:12.059 Does this work, you think, in the long term? 507 00:48:12.539 --> 00:48:13.920 No. 508 00:48:14.280 --> 00:48:16.739 No, no, you're going to have to change things. 509 00:48:16.860 --> 00:48:22.260 I guess it's all the other hooks in the episode, including the secret that Jack can come back to life. 510 00:48:22.320 --> 00:48:23.400 Yeah, yeah. 511 00:48:23.400 --> 00:48:35.460 Which is kind of like the secret that, I mean, I don't know if Rose really keeps the secret, but you know, suddenly she's travelling with this amazing man, but that's a secret there and it's a secret that he's not telling other people. 512 00:48:35.519 --> 00:48:37.440 So when is that going to be all revealed? 513 00:48:37.500 --> 00:48:38.159 I don't know. 514 00:48:38.219 --> 00:48:43.079 I kind of think for it more as a case of, yes, all these horrible things are coming and that's the peril of the show. 515 00:48:43.139 --> 00:48:48.719 Like with Doctor Who, you go to all these amazing places and face horrible monsters every week. 516 00:48:48.780 --> 00:48:52.559 So, well, what's the difference, really, this time they're just coming to us and we're going to just stop them. 517 00:48:52.619 --> 00:48:59.039 Yeah, I guess I guess it's just the sort of underlying kind of just negativity and cynicism. 518 00:48:59.099 --> 00:49:09.599 The, you know, Russell, for all of his sort of big personality, the way that he constantly talks about how marvellous and wonderful everything is. 519 00:49:09.659 --> 00:49:14.400 We've said before, there's like a deep kind of thread of cynicism in there as well. 520 00:49:14.460 --> 00:49:17.579 But you see in things like midnight and turn left, for instance. 521 00:49:17.639 --> 00:49:19.500 No, Nathan, I see what you're saying. 522 00:49:19.559 --> 00:49:26.820 Like, I mean, in Doctor Who, it's always a positive outcome because we're going to survive and we're going to have people surviving as much as we can and things are going to be made right. 523 00:49:26.880 --> 00:49:38.039 Whereas here you are left with more of a, oh, this is a bit more dower foreboding or just, you know, it's, well, to use your word from earlier, bleak, you know? 524 00:49:38.099 --> 00:49:38.940 Yeah. 525 00:49:39.000 --> 00:49:42.179 And all we can afford is Paul Casey in a Halloween mask. 526 00:49:44.099 --> 00:49:51.780 I think the other problem is with that sort of bleakness is the obvious response is, oh, well, you have to have moments of humour. 527 00:49:51.840 --> 00:50:02.460 But the problem that constantly arises in torchwood is that the moments of humour are also bleak because their reactions to death and horrible things happening. 528 00:50:02.460 --> 00:50:12.000 Like, the one that immediately springs to Bid is in the next episode with the sex gas, where the torchwood crew are constantly joking about people being killed. 529 00:50:12.119 --> 00:50:14.699 He came and went. 530 00:50:14.760 --> 00:50:18.840 You know, and then in the sperm bank scene. 531 00:50:18.900 --> 00:50:19.800 I don't think so, love. 532 00:50:19.860 --> 00:50:20.460 I'm gay. 533 00:50:20.519 --> 00:50:22.320 And, you know, we know then he's dead. 534 00:50:22.380 --> 00:50:23.699 Further on. 535 00:50:23.760 --> 00:50:39.000 I think part of the problem with cyberwoman is cyberwoman is so bleak. that you start laughing at things that aren't intended to be funny because your brain is looking for relief, basically. 536 00:50:39.059 --> 00:50:58.260 And I think some of the more successful tortured episodes, I'm thinking things like from out of the rain, random shoes, have humour built in because there's more of a focus on people outside the team and regular life, you know? 537 00:50:58.320 --> 00:51:08.519 And then once you get to children of Earth, because there's more of a focus on Gwen and Reese and children of Earth, there's just more humour built in that's not at the expense of the situation. 538 00:51:08.579 --> 00:51:10.019 It's not at the expense of tragedy. 539 00:51:10.079 --> 00:51:12.179 It takes us a while to get there. 540 00:51:12.239 --> 00:51:16.559 I think it's possible, but I think with the structure we have in this season. 541 00:51:16.619 --> 00:51:23.039 They unfortunately miss the mark just because we have to move between 2 extremes very quickly a lot of the time. 542 00:51:47.340 --> 00:51:50.639 Well, that's all the time we have for this week. 543 00:51:50.699 --> 00:52:01.199 We'll be back again next week, or in just over two months' time, to experience the start of another Doctor Who spinoff, the Sarah Jane Adventures, episode one, Invasion of the Bane. 544 00:52:01.320 --> 00:52:19.920 In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts, and you can keep up with us on our website, 500yearDiary.com, where you'll find our social media links as well as links to all of our other podcasts, including our other Doctor Who podcasts, flights through entirety, and the 2nd great and bountiful Human Empire. 545 00:52:19.980 --> 00:52:26.460 Until next time, always remember that there's nothing to be gained by having a distinctive murder weapon. 546 00:52:26.519 --> 00:52:29.099 Thank you very much for listening and good night. 547 00:52:29.159 --> 00:52:29.940 Good night. 548 00:52:30.000 --> 00:52:31.199 Ta-ta. 549 00:52:31.260 --> 00:52:32.280 See you soon. 550 00:52:32.340 --> 00:52:35.519 Could someone get me down off the big Merino? 551 00:52:35.579 --> 00:52:36.719 I've had enough of a look. 552 00:52:47.280 --> 00:52:53.219 That was 500 Year Diary, starring Todd Bealby, Nathan Bottomley, Brendan Jones and James Selwood. 553 00:52:53.280 --> 00:52:55.860 The theme was composed by Cameron Lamb. 554 00:52:55.920 --> 00:53:03.420 This episode, Paul Casey, and a Halloween mask, was recorded on the 14th of April, 2024, and released on the 12th of May. 555 00:53:04.440 --> 00:53:13.260 Well, now that this episode of 500 Year Diary has been edited and released, it's time for us to turn our attention to the Doctor Who episodes released yesterday. 556 00:53:13.320 --> 00:53:16.199 Space Babies and the Devil's Cord. 557 00:53:16.320 --> 00:53:26.460 To hear our hot takes on those, search for the 2nd great and bountiful human empire on your podcatcher of choice, or visit us at greatandbountiful.com. 558 00:53:32.519 --> 00:53:46.980 There's a point I think that Russell makes in the making of this episode, which is that as you keep watching this show, you'll come to realise that the most dangerous thing about tortured is tortured. 559 00:53:47.039 --> 00:53:53.579 They are, yeah, they're playing... job interview picture. isn't it? 560 00:53:53.639 --> 00:53:55.440 It's like, so she's still dead. 561 00:53:55.559 --> 00:53:58.440 And he says, he says, oh, we got a vacancy. 562 00:53:58.440 --> 00:54:04.260 She looks down, perhaps, and don't look at the next time trailer. 563 00:54:04.320 --> 00:54:11.579 Okay. doesn't it just cut to the next time trailer and she's part of the that CSI walking. 564 00:54:11.639 --> 00:54:13.019 She's already part of the team. 565 00:54:13.260 --> 00:54:15.599 That's called day one, isn't it? 566 00:54:15.659 --> 00:54:21.420 It's the 1st episode of Torture to be called day one. 567 00:54:21.599 --> 00:54:25.920 Oh, yeah, yeah. 568 00:54:25.980 --> 00:54:27.599 It's like Star Trek. 569 00:54:27.719 --> 00:54:30.659 So Star Trek has Muse and the Muse. 570 00:54:30.719 --> 00:54:33.840 It has emissary and the emissary. 571 00:54:34.320 --> 00:54:36.780 Obviously... 572 00:54:36.780 --> 00:54:37.440 The conspiracy? 573 00:54:37.500 --> 00:54:37.920 don't know. 574 00:54:37.980 --> 00:54:41.219 No, there's an episode called Nemesis in a film called Nemesis. 575 00:54:41.280 --> 00:54:44.699 There's an episode called First Contact and a film called First Contact. 576 00:54:44.760 --> 00:54:47.519 There's an episode called Dax and an episode called Chanal. 577 00:54:47.519 --> 00:54:48.659 Yeah. 578 00:54:48.719 --> 00:54:51.420 Actually, 2 episodes called Anomaly. 579 00:54:51.480 --> 00:54:54.599 One in Enterprise Series 3. 580 00:54:54.900 --> 00:55:02.820 And then the DMA is so vegan, so world shakingly important that it actually allows them to break the don't repeat episode titles rule. 581 00:55:02.880 --> 00:55:03.719 Two Vics? 582 00:55:03.719 --> 00:55:05.760 Yeah, well... 583 00:55:05.760 --> 00:55:08.340 This helped differently. 584 00:55:08.400 --> 00:55:09.059 I know. 585 00:55:10.260 --> 00:55:11.760 So good. 586 00:55:11.880 --> 00:55:15.539 I'm so sad about that They're killing that off after 5 years. 587 00:55:15.599 --> 00:55:23.639 I just kind of think, I just kind of thought, well, maybe that, because it's audio, they don't cost as much as a cast and animation doesn't cost as much as... 588 00:55:24.119 --> 00:55:28.559 It actually might be the sort of thing that they bring back in 5 years time or something like that. 589 00:55:28.619 --> 00:55:29.820 Well, Futurama. 590 00:55:29.880 --> 00:55:30.840 Yeah, look at future. 591 00:55:30.900 --> 00:55:31.920 Do you know what I mean? 592 00:55:31.980 --> 00:55:33.059 It's the sort of thing they could do. 593 00:55:33.119 --> 00:55:39.840 It's not like they struck the sets at the end of series 3 of the original series and couldn't bring the show back. 594 00:55:39.900 --> 00:55:42.840 It's such a shame. had in my head that I thought they were too. 595 00:55:42.900 --> 00:55:43.260 Yeah. 596 00:55:43.320 --> 00:55:50.880 I mean, this is the thing that most modern shows don't, unless they're police procedurals, don't last more than about 5 seasons these days. 597 00:55:51.000 --> 00:55:51.840 All right. 598 00:55:51.900 --> 00:55:52.320 Yeah. 599 00:55:52.440 --> 00:55:54.360 Okay, well, that was fun. 600 00:55:54.420 --> 00:55:54.900 That was fun. 601 00:55:55.019 --> 00:55:56.460 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 602 00:55:56.519 --> 00:55:56.940 Thank you for that. 603 00:55:57.000 --> 00:56:01.320 I'm glad that you are able to sit in a chair and talk. 604 00:56:04.380 --> 00:56:06.420 It's the main requirement. 605 00:56:06.480 --> 00:56:09.119 Rod's bringing you things and all of that sort of stuff. 606 00:56:09.179 --> 00:56:10.199 Yeah. 607 00:56:10.199 --> 00:56:11.280 Yeah. 608 00:56:11.340 --> 00:56:12.059 Yeah. 609 00:56:12.119 --> 00:56:14.579 I'm going to go do some stretches now and put some ice on it. 610 00:56:14.639 --> 00:56:15.659 That sounds awesome. 611 00:56:15.719 --> 00:56:16.679 All right, sweetheart. 612 00:56:16.739 --> 00:56:17.280 Bye. 613 00:56:17.340 --> 00:56:17.820 All right. 614 00:56:17.880 --> 00:56:18.900 Thank you all. 615 00:56:18.960 --> 00:56:20.880 There'll be a big publicity thing this afternoon. 616 00:56:20.880 --> 00:56:22.320 Brilliant. 617 00:56:22.380 --> 00:56:23.400 One more to go. 618 00:56:23.460 --> 00:56:24.719 One more to go. 619 00:56:25.139 --> 00:56:28.559 Bye. 620 00:56:28.559 --> 00:56:29.159 Bye, everyone.