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This transcript was created on 2026-05-03 at 08:37:35

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to 500 year diary.

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The only Doctor Who podcast that's separate from the government

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outside the police and beyond the United Nations, because we're

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just nerds on a couch.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm James and I'm Todd.

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It's the 22nd of October 2006.

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Tonight on BBC 3, a milestone in Doctor Who history, the 1st

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broadcast ever of the 2nd episode of a Doctor Who spinoff.

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But immediately before that, the 1st episode in which Gwen Cooper

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meets that mysterious traveller in time and space known only as

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Captain Jack Harkness, and begins to learn about the horrors of

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the universe.

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It's the 21st century, so it's time for Torchwood, series one

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episode one, everything changes.

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So, 18 months ago, we had the first episode of New Who, and now we

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have Russell T. Davis introducing a second show in that period of

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time.

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How much do you think he learns from or relies on road?

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as he's launching this new show?

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I think he has learned a lot from Rose, or at least knows what

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works from Rose, the modern day setting, making it a relatable

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real world setting with alien stuff sort of thrown into it.

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I guess it's it's the yeti on the Tooting Beck kind of approach

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that worked really well with Rose, bringing strange alien things

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into a normal world.

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The difference, I think, is how dark and gritty and urban he makes

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this world.

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It's kind of that early to mid 2000s kind of, ooh, let's have it

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all set in the rain.

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Let's have it in car parks.

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Let's make it real by making it dirty and dark and that's

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something that the rose definitely doesn't have.

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It's very true, James.

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I think he's taking that, but he's also, he's got this really

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strong female character investigating, right?

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And you've got that in rows, like Rose being the central figure

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and here you've got Gwen, and you've also got the same thing, like

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back in an unearthly child with Barbara, also heading on the

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investigation as well.

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So those things are very, very similar.

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But there's also unravelling certain beats throughout the

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episode.

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Like, I mean, Yanto's not introduced until about 19 minutes in.

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So there's certain things that have to happen.

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And I think he's actually learnt to space that out.

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So just when you're perhaps, oh, where are we going with this

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suddenly there's a new element and that's what I see in this in

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particular.

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But also it's also sort of a bit, well, we're going to be the anti

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Doctor Who, so we're going to put the F-bomb in in the 1st 2

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minutes and then and then later on, you know, it's back again

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although the main characters don't necessarily say that word, it's

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all supporting cast.

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And then you've got the huge blood, right, of with the weevil and

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the death of that particular orderly.

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So there are certain things there where he's sort of saying, well

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we're not Doctor Who, you know?

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It's the same pattern, isn't it?

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It's our female lead who is investigating someone trying to find

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out something about them.

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Yeah, yeah.

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And on the topic of death, which is a big theme in torchwood.

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Something a lot of fans commented on with, particularly Russell's

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1st year on Doctor Who, is that whenever a character died, we

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would usually cut away just at the last moment and the rest would

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be left up to the audience imagination.

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Torchwood starts with a corpse, who then dies again.

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And also, as you say, Todd, the violent attack on the hospital

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worker.

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And then later on in the episode, we are explicitly told, yes, he's

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died, yes, we've covered it up and thrown the body in the bay.

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Yeah, I mean, original Doctor Who is about death, and I remember

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interviews with Russell saying how important death was to the show

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and it is very important to Rose, isn't it?

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We get that visit to Clive, where Clive explains that wherever the

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doctor goes, death and destruction kind of follow.

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And of course, Clive is killed at the climax of the episode.

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And so death is important to Doctor Who.

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And it is a massive theme in this episode of tortured and in

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tortured generally, obviously climaxing in series 4, which is all

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about death or not death, as the case may be.

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But essentially, I think what we get is sort of very similar beats

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don't we?

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We get an initial encounter with Jack.

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So like an initial counter with the doctor.

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Exactly.

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So we get to see him enough that then she wants to investigate

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further, then she actually ends up being allowed into the sort of

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bass, and she gets to meet everyone, and then she gets to kind of

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well, she doesn't really get to resolve the plot in quite the same

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way as Rose does.

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But it has that same shape, doesn't it?

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It's got the initial encounter, searching for the main guy

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eventually kind of meeting him properly and getting to know the

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premise of the show and then being invited into the show at the

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very end of the episode after the thing's resolved.

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It also gives that character a chance to show its chops.

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Like, it basically shows how good an investigator Gwen is.

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You know, she finds a lead, she follows it, she goes to the pizza

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parlour, she tracks down that lead, she inveigles her way into the

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base.

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So it actually allows you to show this is a strong, interesting

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character who has agency and can motivate a plot.

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And what's especially interesting about that?

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To me, as I was watching, is that in terms of Rose, Rose, as she

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sums up at the end of the episode, she's got nothing going on for

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you know, she's in a dead end job.

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She's not happy in her life.

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She's not particularly happy in her relationship.

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So going off with the doctor at the end is a given.

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Gwen is respected in her work.

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You know, there is that scene early on where she's bringing

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everyone around the tees, but later on when she comes in, she can

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just get one of her colleagues in the office to go look someone up

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on a whim without having to go through regular processes.

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And then when she comes in on the scene where they've determined

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the murder weapon, she's speaking to a more senior member of staff

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who just talks to her as if they're equals.

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So she clearly has the respect there.

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She has a brilliant partner in Reese, you know, who when he's

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cooked her a nice dinner and she blows him off to go investigate

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tortured and says she's working and then apparently comes home and

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falls asleep hung over.

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His only concern is, are you okay?

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Here, have a cup of tea.

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You really shouldn't be drinking that much.

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There's no recrimination.

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So he, you know, he's not Mickey, who's more interested in going

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to see the football when, you know, Rose has had a traumatic

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night.

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So Gwen actually has a really brilliant life and still at the end

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chooses the possibility of it being upended for this life of

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weirdness.

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And I think that's a very adult choice because I think all

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children at some point have a fantasy of having a more exciting

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life, but that's less encouraged in adults.

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Yeah, we've given up on it really.

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Yes, thanks for that, Nathan.

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Looking at me.

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One, 3 weeks into my marriage.

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Congratulations.

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It's interesting you talk about race because I think this is

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something that Russell's probably learned from the rose episode

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where Mickey is just so, like, just not well received at all.

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And you just really don't like that character, whereas here you do

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like Reese and you do see a strength in him and a relationship

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there, which is actually, you get an inkling.

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Well.

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He's good for her, but is she good for him kind of thing?

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Like there's that thing like with Rose where they're a little bit

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taken boyfriend for granted or I'm not, yeah, that's probably

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where I'm heading with that a bit.

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And can I just say, this is off topic.

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She looks so young.

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Yeah, everyone's young.

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I actually did check because we were commenting on this on the

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thread.

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So John Barriman is 39, Eve Miles is 28.

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I think she's learning about his age.

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Okay. turned 40 on the season finale of series one.

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Oh, wow, didn't he?

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Didn't have his 40th birthday cake?

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don't know.

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Or maybe it was his 38 that happened.

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I'm just going with tbdb.com.

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And everyone else is sort of Yanto's only 25, but everyone else is

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in their sort of early 30s.

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You think they look young, watch Torchwood declassified and see

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the production team?

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I think the director is incredibly young.

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I did see a photo of him.

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So it's not just Reese, of course.

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It's Andy as well.

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And so what Russell does here is exactly what he does in Rose

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which is he gives Gwen a couple of ancillary characters, so Reese

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and Andy, who are kind of from more recognisable TV shows, I think

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who just get to talk normally about stuff.

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I love that weird conversation where she comes home late and his

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friend banana boat has been over and they've been drinking tea

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because banana boat's not drinking anymore and he's sort of

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settling down as we get older and more responsible. worried about

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diabetes.

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Yeah, all of that stuff is sort of terribly cute.

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And that is very, very rustly.

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And later on when she's obsessing about the knife after she's been

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retconned and she's trying to, she's sort of vaguely remembering

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having seen the knife before.

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There's 2 conversations 1st with Andy and then with Reese that

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she's just not listening to.

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And they're just sort of burbling on quite happily talking about

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absolutely normal things.

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And so both of them are going to serve as a sort of grounding for

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her for the rest of the show.

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And I think the fact that she lies to Reese in order to go and

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investigate Torchwood.

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That's the 1st of a whole series of lies, like that becomes a kind

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of thing in the show, doesn't it?

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The fact that she is freezing him out, that she's, she doesn't

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tell him about the torture job or anything like that, and it's

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only revealed a bit later.

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That's right, Nathan.

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One of the things I'd have to say about Torchwood is that in my

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memory anyway, that everybody's very unlikeable.

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And she becomes very unlikeable very quickly, right, at certain

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points in this season.

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And I don't know whether that's a good or a bad thing.

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But we're not going to talk about the rest of the season here.

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But everyone is not a likeable character.

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In fact, when Tortured comes in, like the crime scene

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investigators in their sort of, you know, the white suits and

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stuff are super annoyed, the police are annoyed.

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They stride in in that sort of stupid black SUV and their long

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coats and stuff, you know, like with the word torchwood written

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down the fact that shot of them walking in.

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And it's sort of like they've been doing this forever, but Gwen's

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never encountered them before.

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I just get the feeling they've only been together for a very short

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time.

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That's my feeling.

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Well, we do find out at the end of series 2 a little bit more

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about their backstory, but here they all just think they're neo

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from the Matrix.

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It is a very kind of period.

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Look, and perhaps a slightly dated period, look, to be honest.

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It does date itself because the genes that they wearing have those

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slight flares and all the male haircuts are like those degrade boy

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bands at the time, where the hairs down rather than up, you know

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what I mean?

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So I, watching this, I did kind of go, yeah, this is of 2006 or

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whenever, five, six, whenever it is, um, very much so.

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I just got the feeling that they hadn't been together a long

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time.

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Can you remember, like, this is after the season 2 finale of

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Doctor Who, isn't it?

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Yes.

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And so Torch would have been mentioned like quite a lot in Doctor

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Who and there was a buildup and then Tortured one under Yvonne had

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all been destroyed at Canary Wharf.

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So did we have an expectation of what this was going to be like?

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Did we think it was going to be like that?

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I can't even remember.

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Like, I'm just there going, like, was this a big shock, like, as

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to how with the swearing and with all the sexual stuff, at least

246
00:13:54.120 --> 00:13:57.179
with Owen and that sort of thing was.

247
00:13:57.240 --> 00:13:58.440
Can you remember like what you?

248
00:13:58.440 --> 00:14:01.200
I think it was pitched as being adult.

249
00:14:01.259 --> 00:14:03.059
And so I think that's what we were expecting.

250
00:14:03.120 --> 00:14:06.779
I think, you know, it was Doctor Who but post-watershed.

251
00:14:06.840 --> 00:14:10.980
And so it was very, very much kind of advertised like that and

252
00:14:10.980 --> 00:14:11.879
publicised like that.

253
00:14:11.940 --> 00:14:16.259
I think, like, for me, I'm sure I've said this and bored people

254
00:14:16.259 --> 00:14:17.460
with it before.

255
00:14:17.519 --> 00:14:20.460
This is very much like a new adventure.

256
00:14:20.519 --> 00:14:25.259
Yeah, there's early new adventures where it was Doctor Who, but

257
00:14:25.259 --> 00:14:25.799
adults.

258
00:14:25.860 --> 00:14:29.519
So we had to have lots of swearing and sex every 5 minutes and

259
00:14:29.519 --> 00:14:32.759
just to show how adult we were, but it's actually not that adult.

260
00:14:32.820 --> 00:14:36.120
It's kind of Doctor Who with some swearing, thrown in and some

261
00:14:36.120 --> 00:14:37.379
blood, splattering everywhere.

262
00:14:37.440 --> 00:14:41.220
It's basically the same universe, but we have to try and show that

263
00:14:41.220 --> 00:14:43.080
we're different by being naughty.

264
00:14:43.080 --> 00:14:46.500
Well, I think, let's get onto that a little bit later because I do

265
00:14:46.500 --> 00:14:50.639
think that there is something really importantly different between

266
00:14:50.639 --> 00:14:55.019
Doctor Who and Torchwood, that this episode does address.

267
00:14:55.080 --> 00:14:59.759
But what I want to do now is to go into hard mode and travel back

268
00:14:59.759 --> 00:15:06.600
in time to 1963 and say, what has Russell learned from an

269
00:15:06.600 --> 00:15:12.539
unearthly child about introducing a new show in the Doctor Who

270
00:15:12.539 --> 00:15:13.080
universe?

271
00:15:13.139 --> 00:15:15.179
to an adoring public.

272
00:15:15.240 --> 00:15:18.539
I thought you were going to say, what if Barbara came along and

273
00:15:18.539 --> 00:15:21.659
she was swearing like nothing else in the junkyard about where

274
00:15:21.659 --> 00:15:21.899
they were?

275
00:15:21.960 --> 00:15:24.960
I thought you were referring to a different type of hardness.

276
00:15:25.259 --> 00:15:29.519
So what has Russell learned from an unearthly child?

277
00:15:29.580 --> 00:15:30.059
Yeah.

278
00:15:30.179 --> 00:15:35.879
I'm gonna say that both stories introduce the phrase dimensionally

279
00:15:35.879 --> 00:15:38.519
transcendental at roughly the same point.

280
00:15:38.580 --> 00:15:39.720
Yep, that's true.

281
00:15:39.779 --> 00:15:43.379
Write the 1st episode yourself rather than giving it to freelance

282
00:15:43.379 --> 00:15:46.860
writer whose son will eventually go mad and try to sue you.

283
00:15:48.419 --> 00:15:54.840
Do does Gwen enter the Torchwood hub, like inna Barbara, enter the

284
00:15:54.840 --> 00:15:57.179
TARDIS, like at about the same point in time?

285
00:15:57.240 --> 00:16:01.200
And maybe the same point in time that Rose enters the TARDIS as

286
00:16:01.200 --> 00:16:01.379
well.

287
00:16:01.440 --> 00:16:04.559
Because remember she enters it towards the end, but not sort of

288
00:16:04.559 --> 00:16:05.580
completely towards the end.

289
00:16:05.639 --> 00:16:09.059
I mean, there's something just incredibly similar about this.

290
00:16:09.120 --> 00:16:11.639
We've got a time traveller who doesn't really die.

291
00:16:11.700 --> 00:16:16.080
We've got a base that's bigger on the inside than the ants.

292
00:16:16.139 --> 00:16:19.320
All right, it's underground, but it's bigger than the water tower

293
00:16:19.320 --> 00:16:21.299
is in Roldal Plas.

294
00:16:21.419 --> 00:16:26.460
I think also, I mean, you could argue that either Torchwood, or at

295
00:16:26.460 --> 00:16:33.419
least Captain Jack are analogous with Susan in the plot, like

296
00:16:33.419 --> 00:16:38.879
Susan is a mysterious kind of character who we're not sure who

297
00:16:38.879 --> 00:16:43.379
they are and they're just odd. so we follow them into the plot and

298
00:16:43.379 --> 00:16:44.700
they introduce us into the story.

299
00:16:45.120 --> 00:16:50.100
Yeah, what prompts Barbara and Ian to go and investigate is that

300
00:16:50.100 --> 00:16:54.960
Susan behaves in an unearthly way, and she has knowledge that she

301
00:16:54.960 --> 00:16:59.580
can't possibly have, and here we have Gwen.

302
00:16:59.639 --> 00:17:03.480
I think in one of the best scenes, like it's almost a jump scare

303
00:17:03.480 --> 00:17:06.420
isn't it, where Gwen is watching them from the top floor of the

304
00:17:06.420 --> 00:17:13.079
car park as they revive the dead body, not revive, not resuscitate

305
00:17:13.079 --> 00:17:18.900
bring back to life the dead body, and Jack just shouts up to her

306
00:17:18.900 --> 00:17:21.299
and says, what do you think?

307
00:17:21.359 --> 00:17:23.579
And then she realises she's been spotted.

308
00:17:23.579 --> 00:17:27.119
And it's like actually quite a shock to have her involved in that

309
00:17:27.119 --> 00:17:30.119
scene, given how kind of physically distant they are in it.

310
00:17:30.180 --> 00:17:31.859
But it's the same thing.

311
00:17:31.920 --> 00:17:37.140
Isn't it the same weird otherworldly knowledge that the Torchwood

312
00:17:37.140 --> 00:17:40.380
team have that prompts Gwen to investigate as well?

313
00:17:40.440 --> 00:17:45.779
Yeah, and of course, she follows them down to the wharf and then

314
00:17:45.779 --> 00:17:51.420
ultimately goes into the junkyard or into torchwood through the

315
00:17:51.420 --> 00:17:55.619
door, offering pizza, and then she meets a whole bunch of

316
00:17:55.619 --> 00:17:59.700
characters who are basically, I want to say arseholes because they

317
00:17:59.700 --> 00:18:03.240
are like just toying with her every single one of them.

318
00:18:03.299 --> 00:18:07.980
In fact, when Tosh and Owen burst out laughing because they can't

319
00:18:07.980 --> 00:18:09.180
keep it up any longer.

320
00:18:09.240 --> 00:18:12.720
They actually disrupt the incidental music.

321
00:18:12.779 --> 00:18:15.839
Like the incidental music, which is creating all this foreboding

322
00:18:15.839 --> 00:18:19.799
atmosphere, immediately goes away because they both lose it and

323
00:18:19.799 --> 00:18:22.680
kind of spoil the whole ruse.

324
00:18:24.599 --> 00:18:29.700
It's kind of interesting because the doctor, both in an unearthly

325
00:18:29.700 --> 00:18:35.160
child and Rose doesn't have to try to be mysterious, you know, but

326
00:18:35.160 --> 00:18:39.240
here, the torchwood crew, including Jack, acknowledge that they're

327
00:18:39.240 --> 00:18:42.420
trying to be mysterious. and failing.

328
00:18:42.480 --> 00:18:48.180
And Jack's response to that failure is to turn it into like a

329
00:18:48.180 --> 00:18:51.839
setup for a porn film of, well, she's going to give me the pizza

330
00:18:51.839 --> 00:18:55.920
and I'm going to say I don't have any money and what are we going

331
00:18:55.920 --> 00:18:56.819
to do about this?

332
00:18:56.880 --> 00:18:59.519
And thankfully something else then happens to distract us from

333
00:18:59.519 --> 00:18:59.700
that.

334
00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:02.160
I don't think it was porn.

335
00:19:02.220 --> 00:19:04.019
Didn't he say you had a punchline coming?

336
00:19:04.079 --> 00:19:05.819
I don't know about porn.

337
00:19:05.880 --> 00:19:10.140
That is a porn setup, but I think maybe halfway through the scene

338
00:19:10.140 --> 00:19:13.799
Russell realised what he was doing. he was going to like, oh, he's

339
00:19:13.799 --> 00:19:16.319
going to have a whole punchline because I just realised I was

340
00:19:16.319 --> 00:19:17.400
doing a porn setup.

341
00:19:17.460 --> 00:19:21.720
Which, of course, then carries on with Owen later on with that

342
00:19:21.720 --> 00:19:22.319
couple outside.

343
00:19:24.359 --> 00:19:27.960
Jack is mysterious in the way that the doctor's mysterious

344
00:19:27.960 --> 00:19:28.140
though.

345
00:19:28.200 --> 00:19:30.960
I mean, he has a title, the way that the doctor does.

346
00:19:30.960 --> 00:19:33.599
And he does have a mysterious past.

347
00:19:33.660 --> 00:19:39.180
And I think we're supposed to understand that when Jack doesn't

348
00:19:39.180 --> 00:19:44.640
report for duty in January 1941, I think we're supposed to

349
00:19:44.640 --> 00:19:49.440
understand that that's because he goes off with the doctor in the

350
00:19:49.440 --> 00:19:54.960
empty child, but it's possible that it's the 2nd time round in

351
00:19:54.960 --> 00:19:58.200
1941 that he disappears as well.

352
00:19:58.680 --> 00:20:02.339
Or that it's the original Captain Jack.

353
00:20:02.400 --> 00:20:06.900
Oh, yes, there's... like, I mean, like, yeah, it's repeated. like

354
00:20:06.900 --> 00:20:09.900
that's still a mystery, which Jack is it?

355
00:20:09.960 --> 00:20:10.559
Yeah.

356
00:20:10.619 --> 00:20:13.200
And that is setting it up because that is later this season.

357
00:20:13.259 --> 00:20:13.980
Yes, isn't it?

358
00:20:14.039 --> 00:20:14.940
So that's clearly planned.

359
00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:19.980
And you know, that, I think, is Russell setting this series up to

360
00:20:19.980 --> 00:20:23.819
be, yes, a Doctor Who spinoff, but also its own thing.

361
00:20:23.880 --> 00:20:28.380
So if you've watched Doctor Who, you have an explanation for that

362
00:20:28.380 --> 00:20:31.380
but then by the end of this season, as you say, James, we're given

363
00:20:31.380 --> 00:20:34.740
an internal explanation so that you don't have to watch Doctor

364
00:20:34.740 --> 00:20:35.099
Who.

365
00:20:44.819 --> 00:20:46.980
It's funny, isn't it?

366
00:20:47.039 --> 00:20:51.240
Because the world that they exist in is very much that world of

367
00:20:51.240 --> 00:20:55.920
2005, 2006, when Doctor Who was just the most massive thing on

368
00:20:55.920 --> 00:20:56.519
television.

369
00:20:56.579 --> 00:21:03.059
And so in the bar when Jack drugs Gwen's drink, they're having a

370
00:21:03.059 --> 00:21:08.039
conversation not only about the Christmas invasion, but also army

371
00:21:08.039 --> 00:21:09.779
of ghosts and doomsday.

372
00:21:09.839 --> 00:21:14.339
And so they've seen all of the Doctor Who that we've seen as

373
00:21:14.339 --> 00:21:14.640
well.

374
00:21:14.700 --> 00:21:17.460
They exist in the same world as us.

375
00:21:17.579 --> 00:21:21.119
There's a great character moment, which is just perfectly rustly

376
00:21:21.119 --> 00:21:25.740
too, where Gwen says, oh, you know, my husband thinks it's LSD and

377
00:21:25.740 --> 00:21:30.119
the water supply and Jack says your husband's an idiot and her

378
00:21:30.119 --> 00:21:34.079
reply is, oh, so you've met him then, which I just think is

379
00:21:34.079 --> 00:21:35.700
absolutely adorable.

380
00:21:35.700 --> 00:21:39.839
And not that mean spirited, you know, because I think that we

381
00:21:39.839 --> 00:21:41.039
love...

382
00:21:41.400 --> 00:21:45.119
I think we already know that Reese is a kind of loveable oaf.

383
00:21:45.180 --> 00:21:46.140
Do you know what I mean?

384
00:21:46.200 --> 00:21:51.660
Like, he's very sweet and likeable and a bit like uncomplicated.

385
00:21:51.720 --> 00:21:55.259
It's also the way she delivers the line with his kind of smile

386
00:21:55.259 --> 00:21:57.240
like I'm just, you know, playing.

387
00:21:57.299 --> 00:21:58.380
I don't hate my boyfriend.

388
00:21:58.440 --> 00:22:00.359
I just, you know, I'm just joshing.

389
00:22:00.420 --> 00:22:03.720
There is a bit of flirting in that scene, though.

390
00:22:03.779 --> 00:22:07.319
There's a lot of her looking at his mouth and all of that sort of

391
00:22:07.319 --> 00:22:07.619
thing.

392
00:22:07.680 --> 00:22:10.200
Like they are definitely kind of flirting at that point.

393
00:22:10.259 --> 00:22:12.900
Well, I guess there's subtle setups for what is to come, but you

394
00:22:12.900 --> 00:22:16.019
need her to be a likeable character in order to want to continue

395
00:22:16.019 --> 00:22:16.740
on watching.

396
00:22:16.799 --> 00:22:20.099
But also, you know, as Doctor Who fans, you've got all those links

397
00:22:20.099 --> 00:22:23.640
back to the show and you've already seen the doctor's hand and all

398
00:22:23.640 --> 00:22:24.240
that sort of stuff.

399
00:22:24.299 --> 00:22:24.720
Yeah, yeah.

400
00:22:24.720 --> 00:22:27.180
And I think that scene is also really important too because, like

401
00:22:27.180 --> 00:22:31.319
it's setting up this crew too, because, I mean, he talks about no

402
00:22:31.319 --> 00:22:34.859
one is allowed to take out alien tech and then we get cutaways too

403
00:22:34.920 --> 00:22:35.579
well.

404
00:22:35.640 --> 00:22:38.220
Yeah, we're all we're all subtly lying to each other.

405
00:22:39.119 --> 00:22:44.039
Something I find as an interesting parallel in that scene in the

406
00:22:44.039 --> 00:22:50.160
bar is in Rose, when Rose is following the doctor back to the

407
00:22:50.160 --> 00:22:55.380
TARDIS after the hand attacks him in her flat, he says to her

408
00:22:55.380 --> 00:22:56.460
forget me, go home.

409
00:22:56.519 --> 00:22:58.140
Yeah, okay.

410
00:22:58.200 --> 00:22:59.700
Now here's the thing.

411
00:22:59.759 --> 00:23:02.759
The doctor, at this stage, doesn't enforce it.

412
00:23:02.819 --> 00:23:06.660
Jack, on the other hand, is enforcing it.

413
00:23:06.720 --> 00:23:08.400
Jack is not only saying forget me.

414
00:23:08.460 --> 00:23:11.759
He's saying, I'm going to make you forget me, but in such a way

415
00:23:11.759 --> 00:23:17.339
it's this morally gray thing of, you know, he's drugging Gwen, but

416
00:23:17.339 --> 00:23:19.980
at the same time, he is doing it to protect her because when she

417
00:23:19.980 --> 00:23:21.240
says, I will tell someone else.

418
00:23:21.299 --> 00:23:23.880
He's like, do you want to involve someone you care about?

419
00:23:24.420 --> 00:23:26.940
And I like that it's morally gray.

420
00:23:27.420 --> 00:23:31.920
At least it's morally gray, unlike the other drugging that happens

421
00:23:31.920 --> 00:23:33.299
around this time in the episode.

422
00:23:33.359 --> 00:23:34.980
Well, let's get to that in a second.

423
00:23:35.099 --> 00:23:39.420
I think what's interesting is that both Rose and Gwen are actually

424
00:23:39.420 --> 00:23:41.279
initially rejected.

425
00:23:41.339 --> 00:23:44.519
So what we used to, you know, that sort of Joseph Campbell

426
00:23:44.519 --> 00:23:49.619
Monomith thing, where someone is special or chosen or something

427
00:23:49.619 --> 00:23:52.559
and they end up assuming the mantle of a hero at the end of the

428
00:23:52.559 --> 00:23:56.940
episode, and both rose and everything changes are a bit like

429
00:23:56.940 --> 00:23:57.299
that.

430
00:23:57.359 --> 00:24:03.240
But instead of Rose and Gwen being reluctant, like initially

431
00:24:03.240 --> 00:24:08.160
rejecting the idea, but being forced to nevertheless adopt the

432
00:24:08.160 --> 00:24:09.960
role, they're actually rejected.

433
00:24:10.019 --> 00:24:15.180
They're actually told no, and they persist, nevertheless, and then

434
00:24:15.180 --> 00:24:19.380
they kind of show their value to, you know, the doctor and Jack

435
00:24:19.380 --> 00:24:22.559
respectively and end up being invited on board.

436
00:24:22.619 --> 00:24:27.000
So I think that that's, you know, that's another beat that the 2

437
00:24:27.000 --> 00:24:27.839
shows have in common.

438
00:24:33.960 --> 00:24:37.319
All right, well, let's talk about what distinguishes.

439
00:24:37.319 --> 00:24:42.299
Torchwood from Doctor Who.

440
00:24:42.359 --> 00:24:47.339
And I think that in addition to the fact that we open on a corpse

441
00:24:47.339 --> 00:24:52.079
and that there's a lot of blood and so on, there is what we've

442
00:24:52.079 --> 00:24:57.480
started to talk about, which is the problematic behaviour of the

443
00:24:57.480 --> 00:24:58.079
characters.

444
00:24:58.140 --> 00:25:00.660
So I want to talk about Tosh.

445
00:25:00.720 --> 00:25:04.859
She seems to steal a scanner and she, why?

446
00:25:04.920 --> 00:25:07.380
And she just scans a book in like you do?

447
00:25:07.440 --> 00:25:09.359
And a book that's in the public domain.

448
00:25:09.480 --> 00:25:13.500
She is a massive nerd and she doesn't know at the public domain. is

449
00:25:13.500 --> 00:25:13.740
true.

450
00:25:13.799 --> 00:25:15.299
So it's a tale of 2 cities.

451
00:25:15.359 --> 00:25:16.920
I think she's reading it.

452
00:25:16.980 --> 00:25:19.500
Like, I think that she's reading the book.

453
00:25:19.559 --> 00:25:24.839
So she scans the book, but as she sees the pages flick past.

454
00:25:25.559 --> 00:25:29.220
Yeah, yeah, I think we're getting sort of reactions from her as if

455
00:25:29.220 --> 00:25:30.059
she's reading the book.

456
00:25:30.119 --> 00:25:32.940
But it is the nerdiest possible thing to take home.

457
00:25:33.000 --> 00:25:37.079
So Susie's taking home the resurrection glove to resurrect a fly.

458
00:25:37.140 --> 00:25:39.180
Yeah, she kills a flying resurrector fly.

459
00:25:39.240 --> 00:25:42.059
We learn that she is doing other things with the respect.

460
00:25:42.119 --> 00:25:45.240
But at this point in the episode, it's like, oh, wow, resurrecting

461
00:25:45.240 --> 00:25:46.619
a flight, oh, reading a book.

462
00:25:46.740 --> 00:25:48.900
What's the Anto doing?

463
00:25:48.960 --> 00:25:50.279
Oh, just cleaning up after them.

464
00:25:50.339 --> 00:25:50.640
Okay.

465
00:25:50.700 --> 00:25:52.740
Yeah, yeah, he doesn't do it because he's a good boy.

466
00:25:52.799 --> 00:25:54.059
He doesn't...

467
00:25:54.839 --> 00:26:01.319
But, Owen, I think, I think, well, so the Owen thing, like, there's

468
00:26:01.319 --> 00:26:04.619
a problem with the Owen thing, and it's a shame because it's

469
00:26:04.619 --> 00:26:05.700
nearly funny.

470
00:26:05.759 --> 00:26:14.700
Like the idea that Owen is bisexual and is clearly excited to have

471
00:26:14.700 --> 00:26:19.859
both of the members of the couple lusting after him, although...

472
00:26:20.339 --> 00:26:24.000
Sorry, I'm laughing because I'm, I'm just thinking of that guy's

473
00:26:24.000 --> 00:26:28.380
words in the episode, like they both want poems so bad.

474
00:26:28.440 --> 00:26:30.059
I'm gonna have you or whatever it is.

475
00:26:30.119 --> 00:26:31.259
I'm going to have him first.

476
00:26:31.680 --> 00:26:38.160
Burn actually doesn't play it as if he's into being kissed by the

477
00:26:38.160 --> 00:26:38.579
guy.

478
00:26:38.640 --> 00:26:43.079
He goes rigid and stuff like that, but definitely the script has

479
00:26:43.079 --> 00:26:45.119
him go, quick, let's get a taxi.

480
00:26:45.180 --> 00:26:47.700
And so clearly he's going to go home with both of them and have

481
00:26:47.700 --> 00:26:48.900
sex with both of them.

482
00:26:49.019 --> 00:26:55.200
And the issue is that there aren't really sprays that you can

483
00:26:55.200 --> 00:27:00.660
spray on yourself that make you irresistible to other people and

484
00:27:00.660 --> 00:27:02.819
make them definitely want you to have sex.

485
00:27:02.880 --> 00:27:06.599
And if there were, we don't know whether that would be right or

486
00:27:06.599 --> 00:27:09.720
wrong, because the whole thing really depends on, they're going to

487
00:27:09.720 --> 00:27:13.859
regret it afterwards or not, they're both enthusiastically giving

488
00:27:13.859 --> 00:27:19.200
consent, but in what circumstances it isn't like drugging people.

489
00:27:19.259 --> 00:27:22.500
I mean, it's very deliberately a thing he sprays on himself and

490
00:27:22.500 --> 00:27:24.420
not something that he gives them.

491
00:27:24.480 --> 00:27:28.500
But I think it's it doesn't work and you could never, ever do it

492
00:27:28.500 --> 00:27:29.460
in a 1000000 years now.

493
00:27:29.519 --> 00:27:31.859
Yeah, still, it's still space roofing.

494
00:27:31.920 --> 00:27:33.119
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

495
00:27:33.180 --> 00:27:34.019
Yeah, yeah.

496
00:27:34.079 --> 00:27:34.799
And I think that's it.

497
00:27:34.859 --> 00:27:40.259
I think Russell has sort of considered, okay, oh, what if there

498
00:27:40.259 --> 00:27:43.140
was pretty much an alien roofie.

499
00:27:43.200 --> 00:27:46.440
Oh, but no, I can't have him roofie someone, but what if he

500
00:27:46.440 --> 00:27:49.859
roofies himself and sort of writes that down and then it gets

501
00:27:49.859 --> 00:27:51.059
filmed and then it gets editing?

502
00:27:51.119 --> 00:27:53.519
And I like to think at some point during screening, someone went

503
00:27:53.519 --> 00:27:58.500
oh dear, no, this still hasn't quite, this hasn't quite hit what

504
00:27:58.500 --> 00:28:00.480
we wanted, but it's too late now.

505
00:28:00.539 --> 00:28:02.400
We still have to give bird a scene.

506
00:28:02.460 --> 00:28:05.880
Because you're still having those other characters be influenced

507
00:28:05.880 --> 00:28:06.299
by it.

508
00:28:06.359 --> 00:28:09.660
And after that effect wears off, are they going to feel like

509
00:28:09.660 --> 00:28:10.380
they're being violated?

510
00:28:10.440 --> 00:28:12.119
Yeah, that's exactly.

511
00:28:12.180 --> 00:28:14.819
And what but what if they went, wow, that was absolutely

512
00:28:14.819 --> 00:28:18.599
incredibly hot, darling, let's pick up some rando again.

513
00:28:18.660 --> 00:28:21.240
You know, like because it never happens.

514
00:28:21.299 --> 00:28:24.420
Like, you know, what if Owen's consequence was during the course

515
00:28:24.420 --> 00:28:27.960
of the season, we find out he is now dating this couple, but

516
00:28:27.960 --> 00:28:31.079
actually really doesn't want to, but they're both into him, even

517
00:28:31.079 --> 00:28:32.700
without that stuff.

518
00:28:33.180 --> 00:28:39.059
You know, that that's a consequence that gives those minor

519
00:28:39.059 --> 00:28:41.819
characters power in the situation.

520
00:28:41.880 --> 00:28:47.099
But I kind of get the impression that it's a bit like the burping

521
00:28:47.099 --> 00:28:51.960
bin in Rose in that. okay, we have to include this now because

522
00:28:51.960 --> 00:28:54.119
it's part of the plot that let's never speak of this again.

523
00:28:54.180 --> 00:28:56.700
No, the burping bin is brilliant.

524
00:28:57.539 --> 00:29:00.240
I didn't say it wasn't a great thing.

525
00:29:00.299 --> 00:29:03.059
I said the production team were embarrassed by it.

526
00:29:03.240 --> 00:29:04.200
Actually, sorry.

527
00:29:04.259 --> 00:29:05.700
Probably not the burping bin.

528
00:29:05.759 --> 00:29:07.740
The highly plastic Mickey.

529
00:29:07.799 --> 00:29:10.619
Yeah, he is a bit too plastic at that point.

530
00:29:10.680 --> 00:29:15.359
So, I mean, it works in the sense that we're trying to show that

531
00:29:15.359 --> 00:29:17.400
they're kind of horrible people and they're doing the wrong

532
00:29:17.400 --> 00:29:18.779
thing.

533
00:29:18.839 --> 00:29:23.279
And remember that the objection that Gwen has just raised a

534
00:29:23.279 --> 00:29:27.119
torchwood is that how do we know they're not going to use the

535
00:29:27.119 --> 00:29:31.140
alien tech they get for their own benefit and then we see them

536
00:29:31.140 --> 00:29:32.099
doing exactly that?

537
00:29:32.279 --> 00:29:36.000
And so at the end of the episode, you know, we not only lock up

538
00:29:36.000 --> 00:29:40.079
the knife and the resurrection glove and declare that it's never

539
00:29:40.079 --> 00:29:44.339
to be used again, but they shamefacedly hand in the scanner and

540
00:29:44.339 --> 00:29:46.140
the sex spray.

541
00:29:46.859 --> 00:29:48.599
That's all very true.

542
00:29:48.720 --> 00:29:53.039
And I think it's also setting the show apart from Doctor Who in

543
00:29:53.039 --> 00:29:56.099
the fact that we are going to have alien technology that we can

544
00:29:56.099 --> 00:29:57.960
use, like because it has to come to us.

545
00:29:58.079 --> 00:30:02.880
And also the fact that we are going to be in adult situations, in

546
00:30:02.880 --> 00:30:07.380
bars, et cetera, with bar brawls and like an earlier in the

547
00:30:07.380 --> 00:30:12.240
episode, but also, you know, prepared to go out to get dates or

548
00:30:12.240 --> 00:30:13.920
whatever we need to do, you know?

549
00:30:13.980 --> 00:30:16.380
Whereas that doesn't really happen in Doctor Who.

550
00:30:16.440 --> 00:30:18.420
Don't you think that bar brawl?

551
00:30:18.480 --> 00:30:21.420
So that bar brawl happens and there's sort of some comedy chats

552
00:30:21.420 --> 00:30:25.680
between Andy and Gwen about what CSI Cardiff would look like.

553
00:30:25.740 --> 00:30:29.940
But in that, in that scene, she gets hit and she falls and hits

554
00:30:29.940 --> 00:30:34.259
her head and it's then after that that all of the stuff happens in

555
00:30:34.259 --> 00:30:40.680
the hospital as if she's now in a kind of slightly odd state where

556
00:30:40.680 --> 00:30:44.400
her experiences can't be relied on, you know, she's had a blow to

557
00:30:44.400 --> 00:30:47.220
the head and then all of this weird magical stuff starts

558
00:30:47.220 --> 00:30:47.579
happening.

559
00:30:47.640 --> 00:30:49.440
Don't you like how magical it is?

560
00:30:49.500 --> 00:30:51.839
Like she has to go into the sealed off section a bit like Paul

561
00:30:51.839 --> 00:30:53.940
McGann in the telly movie, right?

562
00:30:54.000 --> 00:30:57.119
where nobody else is supposed to be around, but, you know, still

563
00:30:57.119 --> 00:31:01.140
the orderly comes up and, and, and that whole sequence with the

564
00:31:01.140 --> 00:31:03.059
Star Trek alien masking.

565
00:31:03.119 --> 00:31:04.440
I'm there going, really, just run.

566
00:31:04.500 --> 00:31:05.640
Just run away.

567
00:31:05.759 --> 00:31:09.839
So this is another thing that actually it shares with Rose.

568
00:31:09.900 --> 00:31:13.559
Remember that the autons are in rows because they look like

569
00:31:13.559 --> 00:31:14.880
students wearing masks.

570
00:31:14.940 --> 00:31:16.740
You know, they're students, they're being silly.

571
00:31:16.799 --> 00:31:19.619
That's rose's theory that she comes up with in the lift with the

572
00:31:19.619 --> 00:31:20.039
doctor.

573
00:31:20.099 --> 00:31:24.299
And that's the reason why Russell had humanoid aliens so that they

574
00:31:24.299 --> 00:31:29.039
wouldn't necessarily, definitely be aliens until it was sort of

575
00:31:29.039 --> 00:31:29.759
revealed later.

576
00:31:29.819 --> 00:31:31.680
Here you've got the weevil.

577
00:31:31.740 --> 00:31:35.400
It turns out this weevil is called Janet. we know that?

578
00:31:35.519 --> 00:31:37.440
that. later.

579
00:31:37.500 --> 00:31:40.740
Oh, we did fight it out later after Janet Fielding.

580
00:31:40.799 --> 00:31:46.440
And it's we do have that thing where it's a mask you're wearing a

581
00:31:46.440 --> 00:31:47.160
mask and stuff.

582
00:31:47.220 --> 00:31:49.740
So it looks like a person because it's sort of distant.

583
00:31:49.799 --> 00:31:53.519
It's wearing coveralls as we come closer to it, then we start to

584
00:31:53.519 --> 00:31:57.000
rationalise it by saying it's sort of a fabulous animatronic

585
00:31:57.000 --> 00:31:57.299
mask.

586
00:31:57.359 --> 00:32:00.720
In fact, it's merely an adequate animatronic mask.

587
00:32:00.779 --> 00:32:02.759
But, you know.

588
00:32:03.000 --> 00:32:08.099
I think it actually holds up better than some of the CGI, like

589
00:32:08.099 --> 00:32:11.220
Jack standing in front of the fountain towards the end, like, you

590
00:32:11.220 --> 00:32:13.559
know, when he's come up in the lift, like I kind of looked at that

591
00:32:13.559 --> 00:32:15.660
and I went, it's a bit ropey.

592
00:32:15.720 --> 00:32:16.500
Yeah, yeah.

593
00:32:16.559 --> 00:32:19.740
I mean, this was Doctor Who's 1st production in HD.

594
00:32:19.799 --> 00:32:23.460
But some of the CG looks like it's been done in standard death.

595
00:32:23.519 --> 00:32:24.599
Right.

596
00:32:24.599 --> 00:32:26.039
I think you're right there, Brendan.

597
00:32:26.039 --> 00:32:27.599
As well as agreeing with you, Todd.

598
00:32:27.660 --> 00:32:31.019
Jack coming up in the lift at the end, to flash forward for a

599
00:32:31.019 --> 00:32:34.140
moment, actually really breaks the tension for me because it looks

600
00:32:34.140 --> 00:32:34.920
hilarious.

601
00:32:34.980 --> 00:32:38.819
Like, it just looks like he's been slapped on there, like Anthony

602
00:32:38.819 --> 00:32:43.380
Ainley, behind Tom Baker in the Pharos project in Magopolis.

603
00:32:43.500 --> 00:32:46.980
But there's a, there's another bit where Jack and Gwen are 1st

604
00:32:46.980 --> 00:32:48.000
taking the lift up.

605
00:32:48.000 --> 00:32:51.720
And it's just this, it's this minor thing and it's just that

606
00:32:51.720 --> 00:32:55.740
Indira Varma's eye line does not at all match where the lift is

607
00:32:55.740 --> 00:32:57.180
when she's looking up and waving.

608
00:32:57.180 --> 00:33:00.420
And again, she looks like she's waving at their asses.

609
00:33:00.480 --> 00:33:02.099
Yeah, exactly.

610
00:33:02.160 --> 00:33:05.400
In terms of the barber all and then the hospital.

611
00:33:05.460 --> 00:33:07.799
Something I found so interesting about that, and again, in

612
00:33:07.799 --> 00:33:09.180
comparison with Rose.

613
00:33:09.240 --> 00:33:14.460
So in Rose, Rose works in a shop and she and Mickey go out to a

614
00:33:14.460 --> 00:33:17.759
restaurant and later Clive and his family go out shopping.

615
00:33:17.819 --> 00:33:22.559
So these are all sort of spaces for recreation, right?

616
00:33:22.619 --> 00:33:24.839
And family recreation in particular.

617
00:33:24.900 --> 00:33:28.740
Whereas here we get a pub brawl, which is not appropriate for

618
00:33:28.740 --> 00:33:29.279
families.

619
00:33:29.339 --> 00:33:33.660
And indeed, most pubs, you know, children generally aren't there.

620
00:33:33.720 --> 00:33:37.559
And we also get a hospital and no one goes to a hospital for

621
00:33:37.559 --> 00:33:38.160
recreation.

622
00:33:38.220 --> 00:33:40.619
You know, you only go for a hospital if something's wrong.

623
00:33:40.680 --> 00:33:44.039
Even in the outdoor scenes, it's constantly raining.

624
00:33:44.099 --> 00:33:47.940
That does give us some comedy when Andy turns up and he's like, I

625
00:33:47.940 --> 00:33:48.539
have walked.

626
00:33:48.599 --> 00:33:50.160
I have bloody walked.

627
00:33:50.759 --> 00:33:56.940
But even the environments of this are much harsher than the real

628
00:33:56.940 --> 00:33:59.400
world environments of Doctor Who.

629
00:33:59.460 --> 00:34:03.779
In fact, they're kind of police procedural environments, aren't

630
00:34:03.779 --> 00:34:03.960
they?

631
00:34:04.019 --> 00:34:08.460
We go from the pub brawl to the police station, to a crime scene

632
00:34:08.460 --> 00:34:12.599
to a hospital, like all of those places are just places where

633
00:34:12.599 --> 00:34:14.340
police procedurals happen.

634
00:34:14.400 --> 00:34:20.820
Whereas Rose is set in the sort of environments that a soap opera

635
00:34:20.820 --> 00:34:22.139
might be set in.

636
00:34:22.199 --> 00:34:26.099
So it's a different type of TV that's sort of being riffed on and

637
00:34:26.099 --> 00:34:27.239
a kind of more adult.

638
00:34:27.300 --> 00:34:31.860
Uh, you know, something targeted in adults more than a soap opera

639
00:34:31.860 --> 00:34:32.280
is, I guess.

640
00:34:32.340 --> 00:34:36.539
But I guess it's a real world environment in a sense up until the

641
00:34:36.539 --> 00:34:39.659
point they get into the to the tortured hub, which is like, you

642
00:34:39.659 --> 00:34:43.019
know, leading up to when we get into the TARDIS, either in an

643
00:34:43.019 --> 00:34:46.199
earthly child or in rows itself.

644
00:34:46.260 --> 00:34:51.119
The parallels between the hub and the TARDIS are really, really

645
00:34:51.119 --> 00:34:51.900
strong.

646
00:34:51.900 --> 00:34:56.699
And I think that when Russell kind of takes control over the show

647
00:34:56.699 --> 00:35:01.380
again in series three, His immediate instinct is to get rid of the

648
00:35:01.380 --> 00:35:06.059
giant science fiction superbase that he's put in the show because

649
00:35:06.059 --> 00:35:08.219
it's a little bit crappy.

650
00:35:08.280 --> 00:35:13.320
It's a little bit kind of unrealistic and a bit crab and it fights

651
00:35:13.320 --> 00:35:17.400
against the show kind of being gritty and serious because it adds

652
00:35:17.400 --> 00:35:19.980
that level of fantasy. fake tube station.

653
00:35:20.039 --> 00:35:20.639
Yeah.

654
00:35:20.760 --> 00:35:22.260
I mean, I think the design is great.

655
00:35:22.320 --> 00:35:26.280
I have to say the design, you know, with all the tiles and all of

656
00:35:26.280 --> 00:35:31.199
the um, circular corridors and all of that stuff looks, it just

657
00:35:31.199 --> 00:35:31.860
looks terrific.

658
00:35:31.920 --> 00:35:36.300
That scene where Jack walks away after putting Susie's body in the

659
00:35:36.300 --> 00:35:39.599
drawer and walks away and that seems to be computer generated

660
00:35:39.599 --> 00:35:40.440
something.

661
00:35:40.500 --> 00:35:43.380
It is because I was watching it going, yeah, that's not real.

662
00:35:43.440 --> 00:35:45.960
But it is very beautifully designed, I think.

663
00:35:46.079 --> 00:35:46.739
It's a good look.

664
00:35:46.800 --> 00:35:51.599
I think everything above and around him is, but the drawers are

665
00:35:51.599 --> 00:35:52.019
real.

666
00:35:52.199 --> 00:35:55.320
The drawers were practical and the floor is practical, but

667
00:35:55.320 --> 00:35:59.400
everything else was a map painting. right It's always interesting

668
00:35:59.400 --> 00:36:03.300
seeing, I think, in television series like the pilot episode or

669
00:36:03.300 --> 00:36:05.099
the 1st episode compared to what they actually do.

670
00:36:05.099 --> 00:36:05.400
Yeah.

671
00:36:05.400 --> 00:36:09.659
Because Ianto's little desk and his corridor to come in and the

672
00:36:09.659 --> 00:36:13.199
lift going up are things that we don't we never see again.

673
00:36:13.260 --> 00:36:15.900
It's like in DS9 with the runabouts going to Bajor.

674
00:36:15.960 --> 00:36:19.320
Like, in the 1st couple of series, you spend 500 hours going to

675
00:36:19.320 --> 00:36:22.260
Bajor, and then by the time you get to the last 2 seasons of that

676
00:36:22.260 --> 00:36:25.500
show, it's like we're getting the runabout cut to, oh, we've

677
00:36:25.500 --> 00:36:28.139
already arrived on Bajor. like it's like shortcut.

678
00:36:35.280 --> 00:36:38.159
In Diravama, I really like.

679
00:36:38.219 --> 00:36:39.599
Didn't she do Rome?

680
00:36:39.659 --> 00:36:41.400
Yeah, wasn't she killed off in that?

681
00:36:41.460 --> 00:36:45.420
Yeah, she seems to be the guest actress of choice to have a

682
00:36:45.420 --> 00:36:48.599
substantial part in shows and then bite the bullet.

683
00:36:48.659 --> 00:36:50.880
Is she also in Game of Thrones?

684
00:36:50.940 --> 00:36:54.360
Yes, and she also met an unfortunate fate there eventually.

685
00:36:54.420 --> 00:36:56.760
I don't remember if she got killed or was shipped off to

686
00:36:56.760 --> 00:36:56.940
somewhere.

687
00:36:57.000 --> 00:36:59.699
She's locked up in a dungeon to basically die.

688
00:36:59.760 --> 00:37:00.599
Yes, that's right.

689
00:37:00.659 --> 00:37:06.119
I think Susie Costello's death also is an example of a Doctor Who

690
00:37:06.119 --> 00:37:09.599
program doing something that someone else did first.

691
00:37:09.659 --> 00:37:12.119
So just a few years before this spook started.

692
00:37:13.380 --> 00:37:17.940
And early on in Spooks, you have Lisa Faulkner, who was a big

693
00:37:17.940 --> 00:37:20.639
household name, you know, she'd had a leading role in Brookside

694
00:37:20.639 --> 00:37:21.599
and Holby City.

695
00:37:21.659 --> 00:37:24.840
She was one of the leads in the 1st 2 episodes, and then in the

696
00:37:24.840 --> 00:37:27.239
2nd episode, she is suddenly killed, her character.

697
00:37:27.300 --> 00:37:28.920
Shall we say how?

698
00:37:28.980 --> 00:37:30.719
That's brutal.

699
00:37:30.780 --> 00:37:34.260
Has her face dunked in boiling oil and then shot through the

700
00:37:34.260 --> 00:37:34.440
head.

701
00:37:34.500 --> 00:37:38.460
Oh, by Space Captain Hugo Lang, by the way.

702
00:37:38.519 --> 00:37:39.480
Oh my god.

703
00:37:39.539 --> 00:37:40.739
He sounds like a bad person.

704
00:37:40.800 --> 00:37:43.500
Oh, I must be awful because I'm laughing about it now.

705
00:37:43.559 --> 00:37:45.719
This isn't a deep fryer incident, isn't it?

706
00:37:45.780 --> 00:37:46.739
Yes, the deep fryer.

707
00:37:46.800 --> 00:37:47.159
Okay.

708
00:37:47.219 --> 00:37:48.239
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

709
00:37:48.300 --> 00:37:50.699
Well, well, Matthew McFadgeon looks on.

710
00:37:51.360 --> 00:37:58.679
I've sort of noticed since then it's not uncommon for a show to

711
00:37:58.679 --> 00:38:03.119
introduce a character early on who is then expected to be part of

712
00:38:03.119 --> 00:38:05.340
the main cast and then killed off.

713
00:38:05.400 --> 00:38:06.000
Yeah.

714
00:38:06.000 --> 00:38:10.980
And so, you know, we have um, Helen in Spooks, we have Susie

715
00:38:10.980 --> 00:38:11.460
here.

716
00:38:11.519 --> 00:38:16.320
We have Grace when Chris Chipnell takes over Doctor Who.

717
00:38:16.380 --> 00:38:16.559
Yeah.

718
00:38:16.559 --> 00:38:20.460
And it seems to sort of be a shorthand for saying, we're not

719
00:38:20.460 --> 00:38:23.219
screwing around here and anyone is fair game.

720
00:38:23.280 --> 00:38:26.340
It really means everyone else is safe though, really, at that

721
00:38:26.340 --> 00:38:27.119
point, doesn't it?

722
00:38:27.179 --> 00:38:27.719
Yes.

723
00:38:27.719 --> 00:38:30.119
It's like, well, we have the other one.

724
00:38:30.179 --> 00:38:31.920
Yeah, it has the opposite effect, yeah.

725
00:38:31.980 --> 00:38:35.159
Yeah, yeah, it's kind of like, we're telling you we're very adult

726
00:38:35.159 --> 00:38:36.960
but we're very sorry and we're not going to do it again.

727
00:38:37.440 --> 00:38:42.239
Well, not until the end of the 2nd year. that's right.

728
00:38:42.300 --> 00:38:46.380
This is the thing that, obviously, Joss Whedon wanted to do in

729
00:38:46.380 --> 00:38:51.179
episode one of Buffy, which was have the character in the opening

730
00:38:51.179 --> 00:38:54.960
credits and then kill him off, the best friend character whose

731
00:38:54.960 --> 00:38:58.019
name I can't even remember, but they couldn't afford to do it in

732
00:38:58.019 --> 00:38:58.800
the credits.

733
00:38:58.860 --> 00:39:01.800
Here, she's in the radio times and everything, and she is in the

734
00:39:01.800 --> 00:39:04.619
opening credits to episode one in Dear Obama, and she's a big

735
00:39:04.619 --> 00:39:04.920
name.

736
00:39:04.980 --> 00:39:07.679
I mean, we're advertising having Indira Vama.

737
00:39:07.739 --> 00:39:09.420
So we don't expect that at all.

738
00:39:09.539 --> 00:39:10.199
I think.

739
00:39:10.260 --> 00:39:11.760
Was it Jesse?

740
00:39:11.820 --> 00:39:12.960
Jesse, that's right.

741
00:39:13.019 --> 00:39:14.039
It was Jesse.

742
00:39:14.099 --> 00:39:15.780
No one gets mentioned again.

743
00:39:15.840 --> 00:39:18.179
No, but she's in the opening credits, and you just think that

744
00:39:18.179 --> 00:39:19.079
she's going to be a part of the team.

745
00:39:19.139 --> 00:39:21.900
Yeah, she's in all the publicity photos for the season.

746
00:39:21.960 --> 00:39:24.840
Like, it's a 6 shot with Eve as well.

747
00:39:25.500 --> 00:39:27.900
And of course, she will come back later in the season, and I think

748
00:39:27.900 --> 00:39:30.659
part of the reason for that as well is that being a very good

749
00:39:30.659 --> 00:39:34.500
episode, they keep killing Susie, was that that meant she was

750
00:39:34.500 --> 00:39:36.179
around for late production blocks.

751
00:39:36.300 --> 00:39:37.500
Right, right.

752
00:39:52.019 --> 00:39:57.300
The thing that's here, the thing that makes this show more adult

753
00:39:57.300 --> 00:40:00.059
than Doctor Who, I think, is the question of death.

754
00:40:00.119 --> 00:40:03.539
You have that scene which is wonderfully awkward, where they run

755
00:40:03.539 --> 00:40:08.159
out of things to say to the revivified corpse to poor John

756
00:40:08.159 --> 00:40:08.940
Tucker.

757
00:40:09.000 --> 00:40:12.599
They run out of things to say like a minute into the 2 minutes

758
00:40:12.599 --> 00:40:16.260
that he's got and they're trying to kill time and work out what to

759
00:40:16.260 --> 00:40:17.639
do and what to say next.

760
00:40:17.699 --> 00:40:21.480
And the question is, what did you experience?

761
00:40:21.539 --> 00:40:23.280
What was death like?

762
00:40:23.340 --> 00:40:28.559
And he suddenly realises there was nothing and those are his last

763
00:40:28.559 --> 00:40:29.039
words.

764
00:40:29.099 --> 00:40:31.739
Oh my god, there's nothing.

765
00:40:31.800 --> 00:40:38.760
And so when Susie comes back, there's that amazingly memorable

766
00:40:38.760 --> 00:40:43.019
scene where she also talks about the subjective experience of

767
00:40:43.019 --> 00:40:45.179
death and there isn't one.

768
00:40:45.239 --> 00:40:46.260
There's nothing.

769
00:40:46.320 --> 00:40:48.840
And so death is absolutely final.

770
00:40:48.900 --> 00:40:53.039
And this is not something that you can look at in Doctor Who in a

771
00:40:53.039 --> 00:40:56.639
lot of detail, but it is something that's really, really important

772
00:40:56.639 --> 00:41:01.739
to Russell, and it is that episode 6 of cucumber thing, where we

773
00:41:01.739 --> 00:41:06.599
actually get to see one of the characters die and we get to

774
00:41:06.599 --> 00:41:08.460
experience what he experiences.

775
00:41:08.519 --> 00:41:12.239
We see it from his point of view as his brain is so sort of

776
00:41:12.239 --> 00:41:15.900
damaged and starved of oxygen that sort of random images start to

777
00:41:15.900 --> 00:41:18.420
come up and then eventually it just blacks out and there's

778
00:41:18.420 --> 00:41:18.900
nothing.

779
00:41:18.960 --> 00:41:21.179
So there's nothing after death.

780
00:41:21.239 --> 00:41:27.119
And so this show absolutely faces that head on and is essentially

781
00:41:27.119 --> 00:41:28.380
about that.

782
00:41:28.440 --> 00:41:31.440
And so when you have, you know, you're in this show where there's

783
00:41:31.440 --> 00:41:35.340
a magical glove that can raise people from the dead, but there's

784
00:41:35.340 --> 00:41:38.760
no magical afterlife or anything like that when people die, they

785
00:41:38.760 --> 00:41:40.320
just die.

786
00:41:40.380 --> 00:41:45.599
And that bleakness underlies it in a way that never underlies

787
00:41:45.599 --> 00:41:46.440
Doctor Who.

788
00:41:46.500 --> 00:41:51.000
But also the fact that she chooses to commit suicide.

789
00:41:51.059 --> 00:41:55.619
And you see that happening and that doesn't happen in Doctor Who

790
00:41:55.619 --> 00:41:58.079
unless the character is really sacrificing themselves to save

791
00:41:58.079 --> 00:42:00.960
everybody else from a menace, you know?

792
00:42:01.019 --> 00:42:02.280
like, I don't know.

793
00:42:02.340 --> 00:42:04.440
Yeah, like self-sacrificed, right?

794
00:42:04.500 --> 00:42:07.559
Like, highly in, uh, voyage of the dad.

795
00:42:07.619 --> 00:42:09.659
Or PEX in Paradise Towers.

796
00:42:09.719 --> 00:42:10.500
Why?

797
00:42:10.679 --> 00:42:11.639
Why am I thinking of that?

798
00:42:11.639 --> 00:42:13.860
From the ridiculous to the sublime?

799
00:42:14.400 --> 00:42:19.380
But here, she's deciding that she doesn't want to have her memory

800
00:42:19.380 --> 00:42:23.159
wiped and just go back to mandana's existence, she's just, she's

801
00:42:23.159 --> 00:42:26.579
choosing to shoot herself, which I just found really disturbing

802
00:42:26.579 --> 00:42:28.980
and I don't know if it's the right decision.

803
00:42:29.039 --> 00:42:32.820
Like I kind of was sitting there going, oh, do I actually buy it?

804
00:42:33.000 --> 00:42:35.579
She did also kill a bunch of people.

805
00:42:35.699 --> 00:42:40.860
So even though she was like she had planned to just go and

806
00:42:40.860 --> 00:42:45.179
disappear somewhere so she would never be caught, there's Jack, she

807
00:42:45.179 --> 00:42:46.199
killed people, you know.

808
00:42:46.260 --> 00:42:49.380
It does sort of then bring up, you know, the vetting process of

809
00:42:49.380 --> 00:42:53.280
the employees of Torchwood by Jack, you know?

810
00:42:53.340 --> 00:42:57.179
Has he done any sort of psychiatric testing on them?

811
00:42:57.239 --> 00:43:01.800
Psychometric testing. psychometric testing to see if they're prone

812
00:43:01.800 --> 00:43:03.539
to doing murders.

813
00:43:03.900 --> 00:43:06.960
Yes, but that's the effect of the glove.

814
00:43:07.079 --> 00:43:07.619
Isn't it?

815
00:43:07.679 --> 00:43:09.420
Like it's the effect of the resurrection glove.

816
00:43:09.539 --> 00:43:14.519
She has the glove on and she gets off on the power of bringing

817
00:43:14.519 --> 00:43:15.420
people back to life.

818
00:43:15.420 --> 00:43:19.320
And she has that whole speech about how being able to resurrect

819
00:43:19.320 --> 00:43:22.619
people from the dead would be a game changer, it would be hugely

820
00:43:22.619 --> 00:43:23.579
important and stuff.

821
00:43:23.639 --> 00:43:29.460
But even when she revives the fly, There's a really weird look on

822
00:43:29.460 --> 00:43:32.820
her face as if she is in some way being affected by that power.

823
00:43:32.880 --> 00:43:34.559
Okay, I see what you're saying.

824
00:43:34.619 --> 00:43:37.559
The more she uses, the more it amplifies, the more it wants you to

825
00:43:37.559 --> 00:43:41.039
kill like something bigger and that sort of thing, which I don't

826
00:43:41.039 --> 00:43:42.480
actually quite get from the episode.

827
00:43:42.539 --> 00:43:45.960
Like, you've brought that up, but I just didn't get that at all.

828
00:43:46.019 --> 00:43:49.739
It's, to me, it sort of just went from a fly to, yeah, we can talk

829
00:43:49.739 --> 00:43:52.500
about killing all these other people, but I just didn't quite

830
00:43:52.500 --> 00:43:52.980
buy.

831
00:43:53.099 --> 00:43:54.960
The dialogue tries to reach for it.

832
00:43:55.019 --> 00:43:59.039
She says something about every time I use it, it grants me more

833
00:43:59.039 --> 00:43:59.519
access.

834
00:43:59.579 --> 00:44:02.159
I gain more sort of ability.

835
00:44:02.219 --> 00:44:06.360
Like, it's like it's allowing me in, but I don't think they

836
00:44:06.360 --> 00:44:11.159
necessarily land that. think it's pretty incredible.

837
00:44:11.219 --> 00:44:15.539
She gets a couple of quite long speeches in that final scene and

838
00:44:15.539 --> 00:44:17.400
she absolutely nails them.

839
00:44:17.460 --> 00:44:18.480
She's really really good.

840
00:44:18.539 --> 00:44:22.739
Oh, I'm thinking absolute terror from Gwen.

841
00:44:22.860 --> 00:44:24.539
I think that's too much, actually.

842
00:44:24.599 --> 00:44:26.460
It's hard to watch.

843
00:44:26.519 --> 00:44:28.860
Yeah, that thing where she thinks she's going to be short.

844
00:44:28.920 --> 00:44:29.880
I think is awful.

845
00:44:30.000 --> 00:44:33.900
Yeah, it's really, I mean, that's, and again, something that's set

846
00:44:33.900 --> 00:44:36.179
set apart from Doctor Who, you would never linger on that much

847
00:44:36.179 --> 00:44:38.880
torment of a character.

848
00:44:38.940 --> 00:44:42.420
You know, they are your identification character in the episode.

849
00:44:42.599 --> 00:44:44.460
Yeah, absolutely.

850
00:44:44.579 --> 00:44:48.420
Like, something you don't see in Doctor Who, for instance, is the

851
00:44:48.420 --> 00:44:53.099
sort of stereotypical idea of someone's holding a gun on you.

852
00:44:53.159 --> 00:44:55.260
Well, you give them a karate shop and they drop the gun.

853
00:44:55.320 --> 00:44:59.099
Like Doctor Who is against imitable violence, but it's also

854
00:44:59.099 --> 00:45:04.019
against sort of imitable self-endangerment.

855
00:45:04.079 --> 00:45:11.039
You know, it doesn't, Let the heroes do things that, um, if a

856
00:45:11.039 --> 00:45:14.460
child tried them in a dangerous situation, could lead to something

857
00:45:14.460 --> 00:45:15.239
worse.

858
00:45:15.300 --> 00:45:20.039
So I agree with you there, James, in that that scene between Susie

859
00:45:20.039 --> 00:45:24.300
and Gwen is one of the more adult scenes of the episode because of

860
00:45:24.300 --> 00:45:31.619
not only Gwen's reaction, but actually Susie's awkwardness, which

861
00:45:31.619 --> 00:45:33.420
is rummaging in her bag for the gun.

862
00:45:33.480 --> 00:45:34.860
Yeah, I'm so sorry.

863
00:45:34.920 --> 00:45:35.400
Just a second.

864
00:45:35.460 --> 00:45:39.539
I've just got to, I've just, I've just got to get my gun handbags

865
00:45:39.599 --> 00:45:40.079
am I right?

866
00:45:40.260 --> 00:45:46.559
It kind of goes a long way to saying these characters are flawed

867
00:45:46.559 --> 00:45:52.380
and that Susie is not evil in the sense that, you know, when

868
00:45:52.380 --> 00:45:56.159
they're talking about serial killers earlier and this really nasty

869
00:45:56.159 --> 00:46:01.019
knife and what have you, we're not encouraged to have any sympathy

870
00:46:01.019 --> 00:46:02.099
for whoever's doing this.

871
00:46:02.159 --> 00:46:08.699
And then all of a sudden, Susie is scared and awkward and um

872
00:46:08.699 --> 00:46:12.780
pleading with Gwen to understand why she did what she did.

873
00:46:12.960 --> 00:46:16.380
And Gwen can't remember what she did.

874
00:46:16.440 --> 00:46:21.179
You know, it's it's this incredibly tense and well-acted scene.

875
00:46:21.239 --> 00:46:26.760
And I do remember at the time, just going, I'm really going to

876
00:46:26.760 --> 00:46:27.659
miss Susie.

877
00:46:27.900 --> 00:46:29.159
Yeah, yeah.

878
00:46:29.219 --> 00:46:31.739
She gets the big speech as well.

879
00:46:31.800 --> 00:46:35.699
So the thing that Doctor Who keeps doing in this period is talking

880
00:46:35.699 --> 00:46:40.739
about the wondrous things that the doctor in Rose C when they go

881
00:46:40.739 --> 00:46:45.119
out into the universe in the Christmas invasion last week.

882
00:46:45.179 --> 00:46:49.739
There's a hilarious scene where Mickey goes on about how much he

883
00:46:49.739 --> 00:46:53.460
enjoys hearing these stories about how wonderful and great it is

884
00:46:53.460 --> 00:46:54.780
in the TARDIS.

885
00:46:54.840 --> 00:46:58.739
And we've seen that all the way back, you know, to boomtown when

886
00:46:58.739 --> 00:47:01.380
we hear about woman wept and all of that sort of stuff.

887
00:47:01.440 --> 00:47:05.340
The world, the universe is a magical and wondrous place.

888
00:47:05.400 --> 00:47:08.219
And she alludes to that doesn't she?

889
00:47:08.280 --> 00:47:13.320
She actually says, maybe there's better stuff out there, brilliant

890
00:47:13.320 --> 00:47:14.639
stuff, beautiful stuff.

891
00:47:14.699 --> 00:47:16.800
Just they don't come here.

892
00:47:16.800 --> 00:47:21.659
And so that, and Doctor Who at the time doesn't show us that stuff

893
00:47:21.659 --> 00:47:24.059
necessarily, partly because we don't have the budget.

894
00:47:24.059 --> 00:47:26.820
And also because Doctor Who is an adventure show where we're

895
00:47:26.820 --> 00:47:28.500
always being threatened by monsters and stuff.

896
00:47:28.559 --> 00:47:31.559
So most of the time, they're not just revelling and how beautiful

897
00:47:31.559 --> 00:47:32.880
everything is.

898
00:47:33.179 --> 00:47:36.360
But it's something that Russell has taken from the original show

899
00:47:36.360 --> 00:47:41.400
with all of its Florana speeches and stuff and has made that a

900
00:47:41.400 --> 00:47:44.099
motivator for Rose to travel with the doctor.

901
00:47:44.159 --> 00:47:45.960
Here, we don't get any of that.

902
00:47:46.019 --> 00:47:48.599
That's not the motivator, and in fact, it's the opposite.

903
00:47:48.659 --> 00:47:52.679
Everything that comes from outside of earth is terrible.

904
00:47:52.800 --> 00:47:55.199
You know, she just says it's shit.

905
00:47:55.260 --> 00:47:58.800
It's weevils and stuff, you know, that's what we get.

906
00:47:58.860 --> 00:48:06.059
And I don't know whether that long term is such a great premise.

907
00:48:06.179 --> 00:48:09.059
It really sounds kind of miserable to me.

908
00:48:09.119 --> 00:48:12.059
Does this work, you think, in the long term?

909
00:48:12.539 --> 00:48:13.920
No.

910
00:48:14.280 --> 00:48:16.739
No, no, you're going to have to change things.

911
00:48:16.860 --> 00:48:20.639
I guess it's all the other hooks in the episode, including the

912
00:48:20.639 --> 00:48:22.260
secret that Jack can come back to life.

913
00:48:22.320 --> 00:48:23.400
Yeah, yeah.

914
00:48:23.400 --> 00:48:27.780
Which is kind of like the secret that, I mean, I don't know if

915
00:48:27.780 --> 00:48:30.000
Rose really keeps the secret, but you know, suddenly she's

916
00:48:30.000 --> 00:48:32.820
travelling with this amazing man, but that's a secret there and

917
00:48:32.820 --> 00:48:35.460
it's a secret that he's not telling other people.

918
00:48:35.519 --> 00:48:37.440
So when is that going to be all revealed?

919
00:48:37.500 --> 00:48:38.159
I don't know.

920
00:48:38.219 --> 00:48:40.980
I kind of think for it more as a case of, yes, all these horrible

921
00:48:40.980 --> 00:48:43.079
things are coming and that's the peril of the show.

922
00:48:43.139 --> 00:48:46.320
Like with Doctor Who, you go to all these amazing places and face

923
00:48:46.320 --> 00:48:48.719
horrible monsters every week.

924
00:48:48.780 --> 00:48:51.300
So, well, what's the difference, really, this time they're just

925
00:48:51.300 --> 00:48:52.559
coming to us and we're going to just stop them.

926
00:48:52.619 --> 00:48:56.039
Yeah, I guess I guess it's just the sort of underlying kind of

927
00:48:56.039 --> 00:48:59.039
just negativity and cynicism.

928
00:48:59.099 --> 00:49:06.360
The, you know, Russell, for all of his sort of big personality, the

929
00:49:06.360 --> 00:49:08.760
way that he constantly talks about how marvellous and wonderful

930
00:49:08.760 --> 00:49:09.599
everything is.

931
00:49:09.659 --> 00:49:13.440
We've said before, there's like a deep kind of thread of cynicism

932
00:49:13.440 --> 00:49:14.400
in there as well.

933
00:49:14.460 --> 00:49:17.579
But you see in things like midnight and turn left, for instance.

934
00:49:17.639 --> 00:49:19.500
No, Nathan, I see what you're saying.

935
00:49:19.559 --> 00:49:22.079
Like, I mean, in Doctor Who, it's always a positive outcome

936
00:49:22.079 --> 00:49:23.880
because we're going to survive and we're going to have people

937
00:49:23.880 --> 00:49:26.400
surviving as much as we can and things are going to be made

938
00:49:26.400 --> 00:49:26.820
right.

939
00:49:26.880 --> 00:49:31.199
Whereas here you are left with more of a, oh, this is a bit more

940
00:49:31.199 --> 00:49:36.059
dower foreboding or just, you know, it's, well, to use your word

941
00:49:36.059 --> 00:49:38.039
from earlier, bleak, you know?

942
00:49:38.099 --> 00:49:38.940
Yeah.

943
00:49:39.000 --> 00:49:42.179
And all we can afford is Paul Casey in a Halloween mask.

944
00:49:44.099 --> 00:49:48.719
I think the other problem is with that sort of bleakness is the

945
00:49:48.719 --> 00:49:51.420
obvious response is, oh, well, you have to have moments of

946
00:49:51.420 --> 00:49:51.780
humour.

947
00:49:51.840 --> 00:49:56.820
But the problem that constantly arises in torchwood is that the

948
00:49:56.820 --> 00:50:01.019
moments of humour are also bleak because their reactions to death

949
00:50:01.019 --> 00:50:02.460
and horrible things happening.

950
00:50:02.460 --> 00:50:06.780
Like, the one that immediately springs to Bid is in the next

951
00:50:06.780 --> 00:50:10.320
episode with the sex gas, where the torchwood crew are constantly

952
00:50:10.320 --> 00:50:12.000
joking about people being killed.

953
00:50:12.119 --> 00:50:14.699
He came and went.

954
00:50:14.760 --> 00:50:18.840
You know, and then in the sperm bank scene.

955
00:50:18.900 --> 00:50:19.800
I don't think so, love.

956
00:50:19.860 --> 00:50:20.460
I'm gay.

957
00:50:20.519 --> 00:50:22.320
And, you know, we know then he's dead.

958
00:50:22.380 --> 00:50:23.699
Further on.

959
00:50:23.760 --> 00:50:27.900
I think part of the problem with cyberwoman is cyberwoman is so

960
00:50:27.900 --> 00:50:33.840
bleak. that you start laughing at things that aren't intended to

961
00:50:33.840 --> 00:50:39.000
be funny because your brain is looking for relief, basically.

962
00:50:39.059 --> 00:50:43.679
And I think some of the more successful tortured episodes, I'm

963
00:50:43.679 --> 00:50:49.320
thinking things like from out of the rain, random shoes, have

964
00:50:49.320 --> 00:50:53.820
humour built in because there's more of a focus on people outside

965
00:50:53.820 --> 00:50:58.260
the team and regular life, you know?

966
00:50:58.320 --> 00:51:01.679
And then once you get to children of Earth, because there's more

967
00:51:01.679 --> 00:51:05.099
of a focus on Gwen and Reese and children of Earth, there's just

968
00:51:05.099 --> 00:51:08.519
more humour built in that's not at the expense of the situation.

969
00:51:08.579 --> 00:51:10.019
It's not at the expense of tragedy.

970
00:51:10.079 --> 00:51:12.179
It takes us a while to get there.

971
00:51:12.239 --> 00:51:15.960
I think it's possible, but I think with the structure we have in

972
00:51:15.960 --> 00:51:16.559
this season.

973
00:51:16.619 --> 00:51:20.340
They unfortunately miss the mark just because we have to move

974
00:51:20.340 --> 00:51:23.039
between 2 extremes very quickly a lot of the time.

975
00:51:47.340 --> 00:51:50.639
Well, that's all the time we have for this week.

976
00:51:50.699 --> 00:51:54.900
We'll be back again next week, or in just over two months' time, to

977
00:51:54.900 --> 00:51:58.559
experience the start of another Doctor Who spinoff, the Sarah Jane

978
00:51:58.559 --> 00:52:01.199
Adventures, episode one, Invasion of the Bane.

979
00:52:01.320 --> 00:52:05.039
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts

980
00:52:05.039 --> 00:52:09.239
and you can keep up with us on our website, 500yearDiary.com, where

981
00:52:09.239 --> 00:52:12.659
you'll find our social media links as well as links to all of our

982
00:52:12.659 --> 00:52:16.920
other podcasts, including our other Doctor Who podcasts, flights

983
00:52:16.920 --> 00:52:19.920
through entirety, and the 2nd great and bountiful Human Empire.

984
00:52:19.980 --> 00:52:24.059
Until next time, always remember that there's nothing to be gained

985
00:52:24.059 --> 00:52:26.460
by having a distinctive murder weapon.

986
00:52:26.519 --> 00:52:29.099
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

987
00:52:29.159 --> 00:52:29.940
Good night.

988
00:52:30.000 --> 00:52:31.199
Ta-ta.

989
00:52:31.260 --> 00:52:32.280
See you soon.

990
00:52:32.340 --> 00:52:35.519
Could someone get me down off the big Merino?

991
00:52:35.579 --> 00:52:36.719
I've had enough of a look.

992
00:52:47.280 --> 00:52:51.900
That was 500 Year Diary, starring Todd Bealby, Nathan Bottomley

993
00:52:51.900 --> 00:52:53.219
Brendan Jones and James Selwood.

994
00:52:53.280 --> 00:52:55.860
The theme was composed by Cameron Lamb.

995
00:52:55.920 --> 00:52:59.699
This episode, Paul Casey, and a Halloween mask, was recorded on

996
00:52:59.699 --> 00:53:03.420
the 14th of April, 2024, and released on the 12th of May.

997
00:53:04.440 --> 00:53:08.760
Well, now that this episode of 500 Year Diary has been edited and

998
00:53:08.760 --> 00:53:12.000
released, it's time for us to turn our attention to the Doctor Who

999
00:53:12.000 --> 00:53:13.260
episodes released yesterday.

1000
00:53:13.320 --> 00:53:16.199
Space Babies and the Devil's Cord.

1001
00:53:16.320 --> 00:53:20.159
To hear our hot takes on those, search for the 2nd great and

1002
00:53:20.159 --> 00:53:23.880
bountiful human empire on your podcatcher of choice, or visit us

1003
00:53:23.880 --> 00:53:26.460
at greatandbountiful.com.

1004
00:53:32.519 --> 00:53:36.599
There's a point I think that Russell makes in the making of this

1005
00:53:36.599 --> 00:53:43.139
episode, which is that as you keep watching this show, you'll come

1006
00:53:43.139 --> 00:53:46.199
to realise that the most dangerous thing about tortured is

1007
00:53:46.199 --> 00:53:46.980
tortured.

1008
00:53:47.039 --> 00:53:53.460
They are, yeah, they're playing... job interview picture. isn't

1009
00:53:53.460 --> 00:53:53.579
it?

1010
00:53:53.639 --> 00:53:55.440
It's like, so she's still dead.

1011
00:53:55.559 --> 00:53:58.440
And he says, he says, oh, we got a vacancy.

1012
00:53:58.440 --> 00:54:04.260
She looks down, perhaps, and don't look at the next time trailer.

1013
00:54:04.320 --> 00:54:08.340
Okay. doesn't it just cut to the next time trailer and she's part

1014
00:54:08.340 --> 00:54:11.579
of the that CSI walking.

1015
00:54:11.639 --> 00:54:13.019
She's already part of the team.

1016
00:54:13.260 --> 00:54:15.599
That's called day one, isn't it?

1017
00:54:15.659 --> 00:54:21.420
It's the 1st episode of Torture to be called day one.

1018
00:54:21.599 --> 00:54:25.920
Oh, yeah, yeah.

1019
00:54:25.980 --> 00:54:27.599
It's like Star Trek.

1020
00:54:27.719 --> 00:54:30.659
So Star Trek has Muse and the Muse.

1021
00:54:30.719 --> 00:54:33.840
It has emissary and the emissary.

1022
00:54:34.320 --> 00:54:36.780
Obviously...

1023
00:54:36.780 --> 00:54:37.440
The conspiracy?

1024
00:54:37.500 --> 00:54:37.920
don't know.

1025
00:54:37.980 --> 00:54:41.219
No, there's an episode called Nemesis in a film called Nemesis.

1026
00:54:41.280 --> 00:54:44.280
There's an episode called First Contact and a film called First

1027
00:54:44.280 --> 00:54:44.699
Contact.

1028
00:54:44.760 --> 00:54:47.519
There's an episode called Dax and an episode called Chanal.

1029
00:54:47.519 --> 00:54:48.659
Yeah.

1030
00:54:48.719 --> 00:54:51.420
Actually, 2 episodes called Anomaly.

1031
00:54:51.480 --> 00:54:54.599
One in Enterprise Series 3.

1032
00:54:54.900 --> 00:54:59.280
And then the DMA is so vegan, so world shakingly important that it

1033
00:54:59.280 --> 00:55:02.519
actually allows them to break the don't repeat episode titles

1034
00:55:02.519 --> 00:55:02.820
rule.

1035
00:55:02.880 --> 00:55:03.719
Two Vics?

1036
00:55:03.719 --> 00:55:05.760
Yeah, well...

1037
00:55:05.760 --> 00:55:08.340
This helped differently.

1038
00:55:08.400 --> 00:55:09.059
I know.

1039
00:55:10.260 --> 00:55:11.760
So good.

1040
00:55:11.880 --> 00:55:15.539
I'm so sad about that They're killing that off after 5 years.

1041
00:55:15.599 --> 00:55:19.559
I just kind of think, I just kind of thought, well, maybe that

1042
00:55:19.559 --> 00:55:21.900
because it's audio, they don't cost as much as a cast and

1043
00:55:21.900 --> 00:55:23.639
animation doesn't cost as much as...

1044
00:55:24.119 --> 00:55:27.059
It actually might be the sort of thing that they bring back in 5

1045
00:55:27.059 --> 00:55:28.559
years time or something like that.

1046
00:55:28.619 --> 00:55:29.820
Well, Futurama.

1047
00:55:29.880 --> 00:55:30.840
Yeah, look at future.

1048
00:55:30.900 --> 00:55:31.920
Do you know what I mean?

1049
00:55:31.980 --> 00:55:33.059
It's the sort of thing they could do.

1050
00:55:33.119 --> 00:55:37.079
It's not like they struck the sets at the end of series 3 of the

1051
00:55:37.079 --> 00:55:39.840
original series and couldn't bring the show back.

1052
00:55:39.900 --> 00:55:42.840
It's such a shame. had in my head that I thought they were too.

1053
00:55:42.900 --> 00:55:43.260
Yeah.

1054
00:55:43.320 --> 00:55:46.920
I mean, this is the thing that most modern shows don't, unless

1055
00:55:46.920 --> 00:55:50.340
they're police procedurals, don't last more than about 5 seasons

1056
00:55:50.340 --> 00:55:50.880
these days.

1057
00:55:51.000 --> 00:55:51.840
All right.

1058
00:55:51.900 --> 00:55:52.320
Yeah.

1059
00:55:52.440 --> 00:55:54.360
Okay, well, that was fun.

1060
00:55:54.420 --> 00:55:54.900
That was fun.

1061
00:55:55.019 --> 00:55:56.460
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1062
00:55:56.519 --> 00:55:56.940
Thank you for that.

1063
00:55:57.000 --> 00:56:01.320
I'm glad that you are able to sit in a chair and talk.

1064
00:56:04.380 --> 00:56:06.420
It's the main requirement.

1065
00:56:06.480 --> 00:56:09.119
Rod's bringing you things and all of that sort of stuff.

1066
00:56:09.179 --> 00:56:10.199
Yeah.

1067
00:56:10.199 --> 00:56:11.280
Yeah.

1068
00:56:11.340 --> 00:56:12.059
Yeah.

1069
00:56:12.119 --> 00:56:14.579
I'm going to go do some stretches now and put some ice on it.

1070
00:56:14.639 --> 00:56:15.659
That sounds awesome.

1071
00:56:15.719 --> 00:56:16.679
All right, sweetheart.

1072
00:56:16.739 --> 00:56:17.280
Bye.

1073
00:56:17.340 --> 00:56:17.820
All right.

1074
00:56:17.880 --> 00:56:18.900
Thank you all.

1075
00:56:18.960 --> 00:56:20.880
There'll be a big publicity thing this afternoon.

1076
00:56:20.880 --> 00:56:22.320
Brilliant.

1077
00:56:22.380 --> 00:56:23.400
One more to go.

1078
00:56:23.460 --> 00:56:24.719
One more to go.

1079
00:56:25.139 --> 00:56:28.559
Bye.

1080
00:56:28.559 --> 00:56:29.159
Bye, everyone.