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This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 09:02:26

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to 500 year diary.

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The only Doctor Who podcast that's all about second chances with that kind of a podcast.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm Peter.

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And I'm Stephen.

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It's Christmas 2005.

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It's been one hell of a year for the UK generally, and for Doctor Who fans in particular, and here's how it ends, with a Christmas special watch by 9.80000 people, introducing the new new doctor just over 40 years after the introduction of the 1st new doctor.

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Let's see how this introduction shapes the history of the new series as we discussed the Christmas invasion.

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So, one of the things about the new series is that it is almost immediately haunted by the idea of imminent cancellation, and that is, of course, because we get the announcement, almost immediately after the airing of Rose, that Christopher Eccleston is quitting.

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It's the fear that fans have lived with for their entire lives.

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It was so I just, I have this very strong memory of being insanely happy for all of 2005.

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And I remember someone stopping me at work and saying, wow, you seem to be in a really good place right now and I said, yeah, you know, Doctor Who's back.

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And this was kind of like, you know, to have it just cruelly threatened, cruelly taken away.

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And I do remember someone at work coming up to me again and saying, you heard the news.

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Yeah.

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Did they announce in the same breath or did they announce earlier or later that the series was going to get a 2nd series and have a Christmas special?

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It was pretty much in the same breath.

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I believe it was 2 separate announcements on the same day.

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And it's still never been confirmed why that Eccleston announcement went out because Russell T. Davies didn't want it to go out.

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It had been drafted pretty much to go out after parting of the ways to make it a surprise for generation, but somehow it went out at the same time and, you know, Eccleston has said that it was part of the BBC, basically blacklisting him for a few years.

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That's possible, but to me, it's probably just incredibly terrible timing from someone in the publicity department who doesn't understand that this is a big deal.

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And Chris was on board with like keeping up the pretence because he fulfilled all his obligations to promote the new series in the lead up to Rose.

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And when they asked him questions like, um, you know, are you doing a 2nd year?

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you know, does it feel like you've got a big future?

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He would sort of answer with, oh, I think I've done the hard yards this year and really sort of play it down.

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There's an interview that's with that ridiculous series one box set, the TARDIS box set.

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And the interviewer says to Eccleston, are you in it for the long haul?

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And he says, I think I've just done the long haul..

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Yeah, well remembered.

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Yeah.

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And of course, by the time we saw that, we knew exactly what he meant.

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So Russell goes into the new show with a very definite plan and a definite idea for the doctor that's based on Eccleston's portrayal.

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And he is, I think, forced, of course correct, isn't he?

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I think that's true, Nathan.

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Obviously, he would have not anticipated that Chris would have left after a single season or series rather, but I think it actually plays out for the best.

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There's so much healing, I guess, that the character does in that 1st series.

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And I think that would have come to fruition in that 2nd series had Chris been in the part.

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But there's something that maybe only a change of doctor brings in terms of, you know, fresh air, I guess, into the part and into the series and, you know, having Tennant, who's such a happy smiley character and as an actor as well as a, as in the part, maybe helps to sort of refresh the show after sort of bringing it back from the wilderness years where the time war is the metaphor for that.

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And we have a sort of PTSD doctor I've said in the past, that's, that's not tenant.

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Tenet is much more, perhaps on the other side of that, and I can absolutely see how Christopher Eccleston, as the doctor in series 2, could have worked and it would have been a triumph, but equally, I feel like there's some kind of new start with Tenet, and it works wonderfully for it.

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On the surface of it, the Christmas invasion doesn't feel like a reboot.

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It feels very much of a piece with series one.

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And, you know, it has a lot in common.

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It starts with that big shot of the earth from Rose, where you zoom in to some action.

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It looks like series one and then you get Jackie and Mickey and then Harriet Jones and there are shots of Central London with a spaceship in the sky.

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And so it feels like, you know, it has a lot of DNA in common with some like aliens of London.

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And to match that, Russell goes with the spearhead from space robot model of having familiar faces around to cushion the new doctor into the role.

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But having said that, I think this is quite a reboot for the show because it's now a very different series.

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It's Doctor Who is a popular success again, which they didn't know it would be in the 1st series.

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And so it's not that old show, Doctor Who, which came back and people liked it again.

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It's Doctor Who, all caps.

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And so the opener with the TARDIS is like a big barnstorming statement of intent.

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And it sort of, I think the episode refines the formula and makes Doc 2 a long-term prospect rather than a one series prospect and sort of boils down the essence of what RTD Doctor Who is.

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What do you think gets left behind?

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Like, I think Russell could have just said, all right, we'll just recast the doctrine, keep doing what we were doing.

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And I think we agree that there's some kind of course correction.

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What gets left behind in season one?

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Lens Flair?

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For the most part.

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That's all right.

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Chippers brings that back.

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Something that I think gets left behind.

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Although it is, it is still present because it's an essential part of the character.

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But perhaps a better way to put it would be less emphasised is loneliness.

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Yeah.

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The 10th doctor is immediately a less lonely character than the ninth doctor.

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And something Russell wanted to highlight in the script, and one of his 1st thoughts was the new doctor having Christmas dinner with the tilers.

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Yeah.

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And not only is that what the story builds up to, but you have Jackie and Mickey and Rose.

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Throughout this episode, their immediate response is to take care of the doctor, to bring him into their home, to put him into a bed, you know, and check what else he's got to of.

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What else he got to?

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I find it incredibly touching that scene where Rose goes into the bedroom and sees that Jackie has fallen asleep while just sitting with the doctor.

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Like, I think that's really, really just lovely.

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Like, you know, Jackie is such a great comedy character and such a flake and and, you know, a bit of an idiot and stuff, but she has a big heart in a way that Rose kind of doesn't.

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And that I just find that actually quite moving.

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He's been being rude to her.

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He is a bit of a dick.

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But now he's a kind of younger man and he's unwell and vulnerable and she wants to look after him and I think that's really lovely.

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And there may be a scene, I think, before that, where Jackie just comes in to check on him quietly and just puts a cup of tea next to the bed and it's like, it's really just so caring.

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And I think that shows in the doctor's performance with the regulars with Eccleston, it sort of played off Eccleston's spiky demeanour and reputation to kind of have him at loggerheads with the people in Rose's life, whereas that becomes gentler humour.

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And so the doctor is actually quite pleased to have Mickey and Jackie around and we'll join with a group hug in the end and that kind of thing. go to Christmas dinner with them.

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And I think it's a softer, less spiky series for it.

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The doctor is actually really massively unlikeable at the end of World War 3, isn't he?

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where he just makes Rose choose between Jackie and him.

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And, you know, there's not going to be a dinner together.

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There isn't going to be anything like that.

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I don't do that.

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And he's verging on being a kind of manipulative boyfriend, I think.

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Like, and that's deliberate.

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Russell knows what he's doing.

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He is making the character genuinely unlikeable, but that's unthinkable, I think, with tenants, Doctor.

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Yeah, completely.

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And I think in addition to that, that it spikiness sort of abrasiveness, um, which sort of comes with Eccleston's portrayal, but also perhaps just, you know, him as an actor as well.

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As I say, I can imagine that mellowing in the 2nd in the 2nd series, but Tenant really, it just clicks automatically and maybe the fact that there is a fresh face there helps to sort of, you know, signal that as well.

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But in terms of what I feel like series one, what's left behind from series one is the tentativeness.

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It kind of reminds me in terms of, I think Moffat has said this about season 12, Tom, in season 12 is a little bit on his best behaviour and he's just wondering, is this going to work?

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Is this going to land?

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And that's the show.

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That's actually the entire show during series one where they're giving it their best and they're really trying to put the, you know, best foot forward, but there's no guarantee actually that this is going to land.

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And when it does eventually blow up, when it hits the screens, you know, they come back for series 2 and it's just much more confident that tentativeness has been left behind.

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It happens over over and over again in Doc 2, doesn't it?

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You look at kind of the Tom example when he comes back in terror of the zygons and all of a sudden it's a very different and darker and more confident portrayal.

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We said it with Matt Smith in his 1st series, once he's seen himself on screen and he knows that he's a hit and he comes back for a Christmas carol, the performance is different.

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I like to think that Eccleston also would have kind of mellowed into the role a little bit, but I think this is almost Casanova flavoured.

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So David Tennant was leading Casanova in 2004, the Russell T. Davies version.

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And this brings that kind of that joie de viv which Eccleston had to force slightly and sort of puts it front and centre in the role.

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Because that's a feature of Reckleston's performance too, isn't it?

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Like, it's very clear that all of his sort of jollity is forced and that's underlined by how uncomfortable the actor himself seems to be with that sort of material.

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Yeah, um, something Christopher Eccleston has said now that he's making big finish stories is the main element that he felt uncomfortable with as the doctor was the comedy, but he's quick to point out, it's not the writing, it's not the direction, it's how he was playing it.

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And he's kind of like having now gone back and rewatched everything before I've recorded these.

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I know how I would have done it differently now.

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And if I'd continued, I know how I would have done it.

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But at the same time, I just found the fact that he is an actor was uncomfortable with the comedy made it funnier.

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Whereas David Tennant, I think, has a greater natural comedic ability in the same way that, say, Tom Baker had.

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And funnily enough, I'd say it's different to the comedic ability of, say, John Bertley, who was a professional comedian.

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But when you see him act, it's very clear he wants to be a serious actor with flashes of comedy, whereas you can imagine David Tennant, if he hadn't been an actor having a very successful career as a stand-up comedian.

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Well, at the same time, though, I don't know if it would have taken Christopher Eckliston 15 years to figure that out.

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Like, had he decided to stay on for series two, he probably would have gone away, watched the tapes at that point because I don't even know if DVDs were out at that stage and come back and sort of realised, oh, no, this is where I want to take it.

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And also this is where the scripts are taking.

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He would have seen the Christmas invasion and just brought that warmth, I think, and reflected on that.

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But you're right, there is that kind of, I guess, difference in Kristen's performance from series one to what we see in the big finish audios where he's more comfortable with that kind of material, I guess.

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He certainly wouldn't have been watching the DVDs because I was living in Britain at the time and working for Doctor Who magazine and we were getting the preview tapes and they were these ratty old.

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Good old BBC.

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Always cheaping out.

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I do remember on Outpost Gallifrey at the time, there were very, very heated threads that we weren't getting VHS releases this season.

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Fast forward and we're not getting VHS releases now.

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That's true.

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To the point that, you know, people were making their own covers and it led to this whole cottage cover industry and artists like Tom Webster and Simon Halube and Soundsmith have all come out of that forum artwork making.

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Andrew Wharton, for instance, who is now like working on 3D renderings for the Blu-ray range.

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There's so many fan talents have their origins in this era as well where everything was so mysterious to us and there was this sort of car crash sense of is this going to be terrible?

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You know, it's Christopher Eccleston.

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What's Christopher Eccleston's most doctor-ish role before you've seen Christopher Eccleston as the doctor?

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It's as that guy in the League of Gentlemen with the silly hat.

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I think his role as, I think it's Steve Baxter in the 2nd coming is his most.

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That's true to say his role as Jesus Christ.

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The other thing I think that gets left behind is the he's a bit of a bully, like there is this anxiety which we've all identified about the show being for nerds.

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And so the kind of science fiction language where we get, you know, planet Earth and stuff like that, you know, just worlds and skies and stuff like that, just normal words for things where we were used to space terms for them all.

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He makes some Snider remark about Adam's A levels and stuff.

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There's just a kind of slight bullying thing about it.

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And a sort of reluctance to kind of be too smart, I think.

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And of course, his relationship with Mickey, where, you know, constantly Mickey the idiot.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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He warms to Mickey, I think, and it is by the end of episode five.

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I think, you know, there's some grudging respect, and he even lies to Rose for Mickey's benefit there.

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The other story that I, I've always wondered how Russell reacted to this because in the original show outline, it says something about the doctor, it says something about not introducing regeneration.

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And it says something about the doctor not being a new to public schoolboy.

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So there was a very much an idea that the doctor wouldn't be eccentrically dressed either.

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Right?

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that he had enough to be going on with.

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And then when he has that interview with David Tennant and says, I want you to be the new doctor.

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Tennant immediately says, I want a coat that goes down to my ankles.

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I think, well, there's that plan out.

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And we know then we are definitely having a Doctor Who outfit.

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And that's the other thing, I think, that Tenant brings is an awareness of what works in Doctor Who because he knows it in a way that Eccleston didn't.

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Well, I discovered in my reading for this episode 2 things about the doctor's costume that I didn't know before.

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And one was sort of shortly after he'd provisionally accepted the role and wasn't allowed to talk to anyone about it, but had met Billy Piper and she knew it was happening.

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So he was sort of watching Billy's TV appearances to get an idea of sort of how she worked and what have you.

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And she had an interview, I think, on Parkinson.

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And one of the other guests was Jamie Oliver.

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And Jamie Oliver was wearing sort of what became the 10th doctor's silhouette and the trainers and what have you.

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Super Converse.

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Super Converse.

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And David messaged Russell and said, switch on Parkey now.

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Can we dress the doctor like that?

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When it finally came time to do the suit shopping and what have you, as well as going to costumiers, they also just went to general shops and they found the pinstripe trousers that they really liked, but there was no matching jacket.

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So Louise Page bought a bunch of the trousers on consignment and unstitched them and made the jacket out of them.

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So the outfit is truly pants.

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And not even making it up.

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It's funny that you only had to go one further iteration from David Tennant and you hit Matt Smith and you have that definition of kind of the, maybe not new titty's quite sexy.

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But the public schoolboy.

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And yeah, it's pretty incredible how quickly Doctor Who returns to its roots.

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Both of those costumes, both for David and Matt are very, very fashionable at that point in time.

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You know, we're talking about that sort of indie revival of the early to mid 2000s, which sort of carries through even into the early 2010s.

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And that really shapes, I think, both David and also Matt's costume.

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Like, you know, I used to go to these indie clubs where, you know, indie bands would play and people dressed like David Tennant and later, um, you know, Matt Smith, the bow tie, and it just, it was so...

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So cool at that point in time. absolutely.

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Yeah.

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You know, you look at the Dead Ringers special that goes out shortly after the Christmas invasion, I think, and it's the Doctor Who's at Christmas.

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And there Eccleston says, I was intense meat, your Doctor Who was just Jarvis Cocker in space. brilliant.

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Also another indie legend.

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Exactly.

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So let's talk about what is new to the show, and I made a list.

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Did you check it twice because it is Christmas.

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It's the National Orchestra of Wales and the middle eight.

187
00:19:59.579 --> 00:20:05.160
Yeah, I remember the forums when they realised the Middle 8 was back and then that continuity announcer.

188
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I talked over it.

189
00:20:06.839 --> 00:20:09.720
Almost like it's a normal TV show.

190
00:20:09.779 --> 00:20:14.880
You certainly had a whole generation of people saying, what does the Doctor Who theme sound like live aids feed the world?

191
00:20:16.740 --> 00:20:19.440
Well, don't they know it's Christmas time?

192
00:20:19.500 --> 00:20:23.339
I think what really marks this as a soft reboot for me.

193
00:20:23.400 --> 00:20:29.640
What's really new about the Christmas invasion is that for the very 1st time this is Christmas, Doctor Who.

194
00:20:29.700 --> 00:20:33.240
It's a template that the show will return to again and again over the years.

195
00:20:33.299 --> 00:20:37.500
Christmas is important in the BBC One schedules.

196
00:20:37.559 --> 00:20:40.019
More so, I think, back in 2005.

197
00:20:40.440 --> 00:20:52.319
It marks a very subtle but very important shift, I think, for Doctor Who, from hit to flagship, this episode, and it's by virtue of the fact that it's on Christmas Day and sort of prime in the schedule.

198
00:20:52.380 --> 00:20:57.299
It's mentioned in the same breath as something like strictly or Gavin and Stacy or EastEnders.

199
00:20:57.359 --> 00:21:07.259
And of course, you get that shot of the Sicorax ship coming over the Thames, which looks exactly like the EastEnders opening credits, and that's just got to be a reference to that.

200
00:21:08.640 --> 00:21:12.720
Christmas audiences are not a regular TV audience.

201
00:21:12.779 --> 00:21:15.359
In many respects, they're not there by choice.

202
00:21:15.420 --> 00:21:17.400
They're sort of there by inertia.

203
00:21:17.460 --> 00:21:27.119
And it's the one day of the year where people will just sit down and watch whatever's on with whoever they're with rather than being choice viewing.

204
00:21:27.180 --> 00:21:34.259
And I think British Christmas TV is designed to be this mass entertainment, cross-generational event.

205
00:21:34.319 --> 00:21:43.859
And Doctor Who, the program, is now, for the 1st time, I think, what it's always claimed to be, which is that multi-generational crowd pleasing event.

206
00:21:43.920 --> 00:21:53.759
And so I think the show has changed irrevocably in this episode just by the nature of what it has become now and where it is in the schedules.

207
00:21:54.299 --> 00:22:02.099
Can I choke in on that and say, I think one of the main reasons for why it becomes a mainstream hit is Billy and David.

208
00:22:02.099 --> 00:22:05.279
And what eventually turns out to be pretty quickly, actually.

209
00:22:05.339 --> 00:22:11.940
Hey, will they, won't they, kind of dynamic between the 2 of them, which is just a staple for mainstream hit shows, right?

210
00:22:12.000 --> 00:22:16.680
And this is the 1st time that Doctor Who does that brings romance into the doctor and companion dynamic.

211
00:22:16.740 --> 00:22:21.059
And I've said it before, but I think it absolutely works here in series 2.

212
00:22:21.240 --> 00:22:34.859
I'm a big fan of it, particularly because I just sort of look outside fandom and see how alluring, I guess, and how relatable these characters were to mainstream audiences in a way that probably hadn't happened for decades.

213
00:22:34.980 --> 00:22:42.960
You could believe that Eccleston and Rose were in love, you can believe that Tenants, Dr. and Rose are boning.

214
00:22:44.700 --> 00:22:46.319
Really?

215
00:22:46.380 --> 00:22:47.880
Quite right.

216
00:22:49.680 --> 00:23:00.960
Listener, as you cannot see us, Stephen had just taken a big swig of water just before Peter said that, and he's currently choking on the other end of the... on the other end of the call.

217
00:23:01.859 --> 00:23:10.440
It has its clearest, it has its clearest situation in the Satan pit where they talk about setting up home and getting a mortgage and that kind of thing.

218
00:23:10.500 --> 00:23:26.160
But also, I think when, you know, all through the tenant era, doctor is incredibly popular, but it reaches its zenith in series 4 throughout that sort of 2nd half of series 4, and that entire run is characterised by the will, they won't they?

219
00:23:26.220 --> 00:23:30.599
Will Rosen, Doctor, who love each other, get back together.

220
00:23:30.660 --> 00:23:38.279
I think something else that feels new about this is, yes, it's a Doctor Who Christmas special.

221
00:23:38.339 --> 00:23:50.579
And aside from a sort of thing of necessity with the Feast of Stephen, which was you've still got to put an episode on, but also a lot of people aren't going to be watching, so make it a series of vignettes.

222
00:23:50.640 --> 00:24:02.759
This is commissioned as an additional episode because the production team knew that a Christmas special was on the cards, but thought it would be part of the next order of 13.

223
00:24:02.759 --> 00:24:08.160
Instead, it becomes an order of 14, which leads us to Love and Monsters.

224
00:24:08.220 --> 00:24:16.980
And a lot of people sort of retrofit Boomtown as a Dr. Light episode, but what Boomtown was, was we're running behind.

225
00:24:17.039 --> 00:24:20.339
We need a sort of episode where we can have 3 units filming at the same time.

226
00:24:20.400 --> 00:24:25.619
Whereas Love and Monsters was planned very early on to be a Dr. Light episode.

227
00:24:25.680 --> 00:24:42.539
Now, the faith this shows in the program is amazing because I thought, I want to have a look because I feel like Christmas specials weren't a super common thing and they really weren't, but they started to become more common for drama once Doctor Who started doing them.

228
00:24:42.599 --> 00:24:44.759
Now, that's not to say they hadn't happened before.

229
00:24:44.819 --> 00:24:54.960
Um, particularly, I'm thinking, all creatures, great and small, in the 80s, Jonathan Creek shortly leading up to this as well, but even that wasn't an annual thing that was just every few years.

230
00:24:55.019 --> 00:24:57.660
There'd be a new Jonathan Creek Christmas special.

231
00:24:57.720 --> 00:25:02.579
But, you know, off the back of this, we get called the midwife has a Christmas special every year.

232
00:25:02.640 --> 00:25:12.960
The other big example was sort of heartbeat and the soaps would often have a Christmas special, but I think the public perception was that Christmas specials are for comedies.

233
00:25:13.019 --> 00:25:13.680
Right.

234
00:25:13.740 --> 00:25:22.559
You know, so you have like Hyacinth Bouquet putting on a Christmas pantomime and, you know, getting crowned at the end by a crown and falling down.

235
00:25:22.619 --> 00:25:24.539
I think that's the last episode of keeping up appearances.

236
00:25:24.599 --> 00:25:27.720
John Inman becoming a pop star and that sort of thing.

237
00:25:28.019 --> 00:25:36.059
It's got to, I think, overcome this audience perception that this one's going to be played for laughs.

238
00:25:36.119 --> 00:25:52.019
And something that I think Russell does from the very beginning is it can have some funny Christmas moments that immediately then have to be something deadly. with, you know, robot Santa's, I'm going to be killed by a Christmas tree.

239
00:25:52.079 --> 00:25:54.960
A 3rd of the world about to jump to their deaths.

240
00:25:55.019 --> 00:26:09.900
But I mean, literally the funniest moment is when Penelope Wilson looks off screen during that to camera address and asks about the royal family and then just turns back to camera.

241
00:26:09.900 --> 00:26:11.099
They're on the roof.

242
00:26:11.160 --> 00:26:16.500
It's so good Like, it's really probably funny and the threat is so obvious.

243
00:26:16.559 --> 00:26:30.299
I mean, if you compare the threat to whatever the hell is happening in, let's say Arc of Infinity. like it's absolutely clear what's at stake here, it's visual, it's visible.

244
00:26:30.359 --> 00:26:33.779
We see we see people standing on roofs all over the world.

245
00:26:33.839 --> 00:26:38.099
You know, there's money spent on those big crowd scenes.

246
00:26:38.160 --> 00:26:49.140
You know, having just one off characters who are talking, that woman who is walking along the street, not the one chasing Jason in the power state, but the one who's walking along the street with her husband and the 2 kids.

247
00:26:49.200 --> 00:26:51.599
Like all of that stuff is there.

248
00:26:51.660 --> 00:26:55.079
The policeman, the people walking up the staircase.

249
00:26:55.140 --> 00:26:56.160
It's huge.

250
00:26:56.220 --> 00:27:00.599
Like it's a massive, massive giant event.

251
00:27:00.660 --> 00:27:06.059
And we look at it now and, you know, like maybe it looks a bit dodgy, but it's massively ambitious.

252
00:27:06.119 --> 00:27:07.559
It's film like.

253
00:27:07.619 --> 00:27:16.920
It's like a big blockbuster on a BBC budget and it's, I mean, it's just so clear to everyone at home what's going on, I think.

254
00:27:16.980 --> 00:27:22.559
I mean, I still think I would have preferred to have seen Harriet Jones wobbling against a CSO Matrix background.

255
00:27:24.779 --> 00:27:27.059
But it's relatable as well.

256
00:27:27.119 --> 00:27:47.400
It's the bus stop scene in Spearhead from Space, just bit large, you know, you've got the, as I say, like a 3rd of the world's population are about to jump to their depths and it automatically, maybe with this particular viewer, you start to think, well, if I'm in that world, am I one of the, you know, 2000000000 people standing on a rooftop or, you know, who amongst my family are, it's it's human.

257
00:27:47.460 --> 00:28:00.660
It's not, you know, the space reasons and bliz-bloss. actually genuinely about people, the threat to humanity is relatable, I guess, rather than just some sort of abstract, as you say, arc of the infinity kind of reason.

258
00:28:00.779 --> 00:28:01.799
That's right.

259
00:28:01.859 --> 00:28:04.319
And those scenes are not about people marching to the rooftop.

260
00:28:04.380 --> 00:28:08.039
They're about the family members begging with them and trying to stop them and crying over them.

261
00:28:08.099 --> 00:28:08.579
Yeah.

262
00:28:09.299 --> 00:28:13.380
I do have to say, and this is not something sort of deep and meaningful about those scenes.

263
00:28:13.440 --> 00:28:17.940
But there is the woman trying to get Jason to come away from the edge.

264
00:28:18.000 --> 00:28:20.759
And in order to do that, she steps in front of him.

265
00:28:20.759 --> 00:28:22.380
Yeah, good for her.

266
00:28:22.440 --> 00:28:25.140
But while he's on the edge.

267
00:28:25.559 --> 00:28:27.059
Oh, yeah.

268
00:28:27.059 --> 00:28:30.180
It's a Kings of Mariners moment of, oh, there's force field here.

269
00:28:30.240 --> 00:28:33.059
Oh, I'll just step in front of you into the force field.

270
00:28:33.119 --> 00:28:35.579
I'm all for keys to mariners, movies.

271
00:28:36.720 --> 00:28:41.819
Like, it's just a thing of, like, he steps in front of him, presumably even closer to the edge.

272
00:28:41.880 --> 00:28:44.460
He stops moving and she says just stop.

273
00:28:45.779 --> 00:28:48.900
He has done, let's bring back the Jenny Led.

274
00:28:48.960 --> 00:28:49.380
No, no.

275
00:28:49.440 --> 00:28:51.119
I'm being mean to the actress now.

276
00:28:51.180 --> 00:28:55.920
But it was just a moment that even struck me at the time, like the 1st time I watched it, I just went, he just did.

277
00:28:55.980 --> 00:28:57.240
God, calm down.

278
00:28:57.299 --> 00:28:59.880
I think we'd just gotten broadband.

279
00:28:59.940 --> 00:29:01.740
So this was the 1st episode.

280
00:29:01.799 --> 00:29:04.619
I acquired in advance for myself.

281
00:29:04.680 --> 00:29:07.259
Yes, say.

282
00:29:07.319 --> 00:29:12.299
One of the other things too that I had kind of forgotten is how cool England is.

283
00:29:12.359 --> 00:29:19.980
And, you know, here at the end of sort of 13 years of pretty disastrous Tory government, it's hard to even imagine such a thing now.

284
00:29:20.039 --> 00:29:21.900
But it was so cool.

285
00:29:21.960 --> 00:29:50.700
And so just like Vicky's ship in the rescue, the Guinevere one has a big union flag on it. and Harriet Jones is talking about British workmanship up among the stars and just the fact that London is central, that unit headquarters is under the Tower of London is so brilliant and so superb and remains that way during the Moffat era as well.

286
00:29:50.759 --> 00:29:52.559
He absolutely leans into that.

287
00:29:52.619 --> 00:29:58.859
All of that centrality of London and all of the kind of greatness of Britain, it's Britain's golden age.

288
00:29:58.920 --> 00:30:07.319
Poor people are getting more money in this golden age, which again doesn't seem to be, you know, an ambition. 18 for a week at all.

289
00:30:07.380 --> 00:30:15.240
It doesn't seem to be an ambition of, you know, any major political parties at the moment anywhere in the English speaking world.

290
00:30:15.299 --> 00:30:18.960
But all of that stuff was so huge and sort of so amazing.

291
00:30:19.019 --> 00:30:22.019
And one of the things that I loved about the show, I think.

292
00:30:22.259 --> 00:30:28.140
Everything that was popular culture at the time was leaning into that cool Britannia kind of idea.

293
00:30:28.200 --> 00:30:42.059
So all of the Brit pop from the 2nd half of the 90s and into the naughties, you know, the Spice Girls with Jerry Halliwell with her Union Jack Top, Rose with her, Union Jack Top, hanging off the blimp in Empty Child.

294
00:30:42.119 --> 00:30:50.460
All of that is calculated because the way that you sell Doctor Who and Britain to the world is through that cool Britannia lens. absolutely.

295
00:30:50.579 --> 00:30:54.000
And, you know, I've said in previous occasions.

296
00:30:54.059 --> 00:31:06.779
I think Rose is the 1st British female character who's a leader, protagonist in a show like this, since perhaps Diana Rigg as an appeal in the Avengers.

297
00:31:06.839 --> 00:31:11.700
Like, we have to go that far back to get that kind of proactive female lead, I think, in this kind of show.

298
00:31:11.940 --> 00:31:17.940
And that, you know, Rose, and, you know, Billy Piper's performance is absolutely central too that.

299
00:31:18.000 --> 00:31:25.500
And again, it plays out, as you say, Peter, against that backdrop of cool Britannia, it sort of starts in that mid 90s, but it sort of reinvents itself.

300
00:31:25.559 --> 00:31:31.380
And, you know, this is the era of Amy Winehouse and the libertines, you know, and Camden is like the coolest place on earth.

301
00:31:31.440 --> 00:31:34.140
London is at the centre of everything.

302
00:31:34.319 --> 00:31:37.019
It's very tied up with new labour.

303
00:31:37.079 --> 00:31:45.299
And so I think that golden period from 1997, probably through to when Tony Blair quits the premiership in 2007.

304
00:31:45.480 --> 00:31:47.579
That is the golden age that they're referencing.

305
00:31:47.640 --> 00:31:52.859
That is when people were thinking of Britain as being youthful and forward looking.

306
00:31:52.920 --> 00:31:57.299
And, you know, you have remnants of that going all through the Moffat era basically up until Brexit.

307
00:31:57.359 --> 00:31:58.920
But this was the real golden age.

308
00:31:59.039 --> 00:32:10.079
I think there's something to be said about that. 2003 and, you know, the weapons of mass destruction sort of pretence for the invasion of Iraq perhaps sort of signals a bit of a turning point.

309
00:32:10.140 --> 00:32:16.079
But you're right, it's sort of, there is that sort of fag end of that that continues on through until probably 2007.

310
00:32:16.259 --> 00:32:18.000
Yeah, that sounds about right, Peter, yeah.

311
00:32:18.059 --> 00:32:20.880
The show has already kind of done that as well.

312
00:32:20.940 --> 00:32:43.680
It does come back in a London centric kind of way with a sort of consciousness that Britain is cool, but the very, very 1st earthbound story after the premiere episode is, of course, aliens of London and World War 3, which kills Tony Blair and shoves him in a cupboard and relitigates the weapons of mass destruction thing.

313
00:32:43.740 --> 00:32:46.140
And that happens again here.

314
00:32:46.200 --> 00:32:53.640
Russell famously kills the Prime Minister of Great Britain once a season during his 1st run.

315
00:32:53.819 --> 00:32:57.660
So he kills Don Warrington in season two.

316
00:32:57.720 --> 00:33:02.099
He kills like John Simmers, Harold Saxon in series 3.

317
00:33:02.460 --> 00:33:04.559
And who does he kill in series four?

318
00:33:04.619 --> 00:33:05.579
Well, Harriet Jones.

319
00:33:05.579 --> 00:33:06.180
Harriet Jones.

320
00:33:06.240 --> 00:33:08.039
I don't know, Prime Minister.

321
00:33:08.099 --> 00:33:09.180
So he does...

322
00:33:09.180 --> 00:33:11.519
Don't forget, in series 3, he also kills the American president.

323
00:33:11.579 --> 00:33:12.420
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

324
00:33:12.480 --> 00:33:12.960
Yeah.

325
00:33:13.019 --> 00:33:32.880
And here, of course, this ends with that disillusion because I think another thing that gets cut short and may not have been in the original plan is that we quickly hurry Harriet Jones into the Prime Minister position at the end of Aliens of London, World War III.

326
00:33:32.940 --> 00:33:34.380
We know that that's coming in the future.

327
00:33:34.440 --> 00:33:40.079
The doctor remembers that in the future and it's a new thing and it will be called Britain's Golden Age.

328
00:33:40.140 --> 00:33:48.000
When we come back just a few months later, Britain's Golden Age is £18 more a week for Jackie Butt, basically, that's about it.

329
00:33:48.059 --> 00:33:57.299
And, of course, uh, when she goes full Thatcher on the departing uh, Cicarac spaceship and he brings her down.

330
00:33:57.359 --> 00:33:59.940
Like, I don't think that that's intended at all.

331
00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:10.980
And I think maybe that's another thing that is new to this doctor, which is the no 2nd chance as I'm that kind of a man, because that's what we land on.

332
00:34:11.039 --> 00:34:16.139
There's that whole comic scene, isn't there, where the doctor says I don't know who I am.

333
00:34:16.199 --> 00:34:23.340
And that goes on and is played for laughs and is absolutely like just a sort of virtuoso performance by Tenet.

334
00:34:23.400 --> 00:34:26.820
Then what we land in is that very blunt and rather odd.

335
00:34:26.880 --> 00:34:31.800
Uh, like it doesn't even seem to follow uh, the previous scene.

336
00:34:31.860 --> 00:34:32.820
Do you know what I mean?

337
00:34:32.880 --> 00:34:33.960
Like it's lit differently.

338
00:34:34.019 --> 00:34:38.039
It's an odd shot where he says no 2nd chances I'm that sort of a man.

339
00:34:38.099 --> 00:34:40.860
And that's something that happens going forward as well.

340
00:34:40.920 --> 00:34:44.579
It's new for this episode, but I think it's a bit of a cul-de-sac.

341
00:34:44.639 --> 00:34:58.679
What always happens with new doctors is that they impose rightly and characterly traits on them, and they tend to fall by the wayside once the actor finds their feet and starts injecting themselves into the role, and you can see that very clearly with David Tennant.

342
00:34:58.739 --> 00:35:01.320
You get a bit of the no 2nd chances here.

343
00:35:01.380 --> 00:35:05.699
You get a little bit of it in school reunion with that speech.

344
00:35:05.760 --> 00:35:07.079
I used to have so much mercy.

345
00:35:07.139 --> 00:35:16.440
And then it pretty well comprehensively falls by the wayside when tenants natural charisma just kind of takes over and fills the void and fills out his doctor.

346
00:35:16.500 --> 00:35:19.019
But don't you think it's this doctor's failure mode?

347
00:35:19.079 --> 00:35:27.420
I mean, that's what ends up happening at the end of Waters of Mars. where his kind of arrogance takes over.

348
00:35:27.480 --> 00:35:30.780
And, you know, he compares himself.

349
00:35:30.840 --> 00:35:35.639
He calls himself the lonely god, I think, in new earth in the very next episode.

350
00:35:35.699 --> 00:35:40.679
And so even though he's mostly genial and stuff.

351
00:35:40.739 --> 00:35:42.780
You do still get hints of it much later.

352
00:35:42.840 --> 00:35:48.239
Even Voyage of the Damned, where there's some reflection on the fact that he didn't get to pick who lived and who died.

353
00:35:48.300 --> 00:35:56.219
You know, that's always there, I think, and I don't know that there's anything like that in Chris, and maybe that would have developed.

354
00:35:56.280 --> 00:35:56.760
Who knows?

355
00:35:56.820 --> 00:36:00.000
I mean, I think that's played as a character flaw going forward.

356
00:36:00.059 --> 00:36:08.760
So that bit in midnight where he basically starts to lose the trust of the people around him, when he starts shouting at them and saying that they should believe him because he's clever.

357
00:36:08.820 --> 00:36:14.820
Like that is the clearest possible way to lose a crowd of people is to tell them that you're smarter than they are.

358
00:36:15.119 --> 00:36:17.579
Believe me, I do it all the time.

359
00:36:19.500 --> 00:36:28.860
I think also it's possibly meant to juxtapose coward any day from parting of the ways.

360
00:36:28.920 --> 00:36:34.860
And the funny thing is, like, we flip-flop on this because we've got coward any day in parting of the ways.

361
00:36:34.920 --> 00:36:36.840
Then we've got him to posing Harriet Jones.

362
00:36:36.960 --> 00:36:38.460
Then we've got him forgiving Cassandra.

363
00:36:38.519 --> 00:36:39.179
Yeah.

364
00:36:39.179 --> 00:36:57.119
You know, and I remember at the time, at the end of New Earth, there was a big response to that going, well, hold on. 3 months ago, he deposed Harriet Jones, who did a horrible thing, but according to what we know of the Doctor Universe is meant to be this wonderful figure for the next 10 years.

365
00:36:57.179 --> 00:37:02.519
Of course, behind the scenes, Russell has just had the irresistible idea of making the prime minister the master.

366
00:37:02.579 --> 00:37:05.519
And so he's like right, I've got to get rid of Harriet Jones now.

367
00:37:05.579 --> 00:37:30.360
But yeah, I wonder if also, with no 2nd chances, I'm that sort of man, that is a thing to set up against the Christopher Eccleston doctor who, one of the criticisms of that characterisation, was that often other characters would solve the problem inspired by him, but he wouldn't press the plunger himself, he wouldn't push the button himself.

368
00:37:30.420 --> 00:37:38.219
This is a doctor who will do that and will absolutely as someone is trying to attack him from behind, you know, knock him off a high building kind of thing.

369
00:37:38.340 --> 00:37:40.380
And yeah, that's the funny thing.

370
00:37:40.440 --> 00:37:42.599
Like, David Tennant does it with a Satsuma.

371
00:37:42.659 --> 00:37:49.500
Everyone goes, oh, yeah, Peter Capaldi does it with a robot on top of a building and it's like, okay, no, we can't show that.

372
00:37:49.559 --> 00:37:53.340
And it has to become a debate point for a season.

373
00:37:53.400 --> 00:37:54.599
What?

374
00:37:54.599 --> 00:37:57.179
Because he did it in a comedy way with us at Suma.

375
00:37:57.239 --> 00:37:57.599
We fine.

376
00:37:58.559 --> 00:38:06.000
That Doctor Who can't press the button, that would have been had an amazing resonance if Eccleston had actually come back for Day of the Dog.

377
00:38:06.000 --> 00:38:06.960
Yeah, being put in that position.

378
00:38:07.019 --> 00:38:07.679
Yeah.

379
00:38:07.739 --> 00:38:08.760
Yeah, absolutely.

380
00:38:08.820 --> 00:38:09.300
Absolutely.

381
00:38:09.420 --> 00:38:11.280
And, you know, we were close to that happening.

382
00:38:11.340 --> 00:38:15.360
He had several meetings with Stephen Moffatt, and while I would have loved it.

383
00:38:15.420 --> 00:38:19.139
You know, I respect his decision not to, even though I'm disappointed.

384
00:38:19.199 --> 00:38:22.260
He prefers to be written by Nick Briggs than Steve.

385
00:38:32.400 --> 00:38:44.039
Do you mind if I bring up a point that I think a lot of people see as new to the tenant doctor, and it's something that is almost labelled, you know, a criticism of the era and of the character.

386
00:38:44.099 --> 00:38:52.980
But I actually think he's probably a reversion to type and he's something old rather than something new and that is something that you mentioned, Nathan, not too long ago, about the lonely god.

387
00:38:53.039 --> 00:38:57.719
And I don't think that this is entirely new.

388
00:38:57.780 --> 00:39:24.000
Um, I think what we have with the tenant doctor is, you know, that sort of emo doctor who's, you know, hair trembles with emotion, um, and is saddled with this, um, particularly post-rose leaving at the end of this series with this sort of, um, you know, incessant and inherent sadness about him because of that loss and that loss sort of symbolising this this reality that this is a figure who will never be able to find his home.

389
00:39:24.059 --> 00:39:38.639
And if I go on a bit of a tangent here around Aristotle, he talks about the most deplorable of fates for a man is effectively that of Odysseus, someone who is unable to find that half at home and that people that he belongs with.

390
00:39:38.760 --> 00:39:44.880
And of course, you know, it's something that maybe we revisit with the giggle, where he does get that.

391
00:39:44.940 --> 00:39:51.179
But this doctor sort of is adopted that is set up as a character who can't have that.

392
00:39:51.239 --> 00:39:52.920
And so he's always perpetually alone.

393
00:39:52.920 --> 00:39:56.400
And there comes in the lonely god, the traveller without a home.

394
00:39:56.460 --> 00:39:59.760
But I think that actually isn't new.

395
00:39:59.820 --> 00:40:05.159
That isn't actually something that is a construct of new who and particularly David Tennant's doctor.

396
00:40:05.219 --> 00:40:22.920
I think it's there with, you know, the broken old man at the end of the massacre who can never go home again or, you know, the space vagrant who leaves before anyone can, you know, ask him too many questions at the end of each adventure or even the exile who can't stay to see his best friend married and walks off into the sunset, literally.

397
00:40:22.920 --> 00:40:27.480
And even also, I guess, with, you know, the sole survivor of the last great time war.

398
00:40:27.539 --> 00:40:33.539
These are inherently lonely figures and that, or those portrayals of the doctor is inherently lowered me figures.

399
00:40:33.599 --> 00:40:48.659
And I think what we have with the lonely God, particularly in tenants era, is probably just a recycling or a revisitation of that construct of the doctor, the archetype of the stranger rather than, oh, this is something new and the doctor being emo about being alone.

400
00:40:48.719 --> 00:40:49.980
I think that's unfair.

401
00:40:50.039 --> 00:40:54.780
I think, though, it is the result of just this being TV for the 21st century.

402
00:40:54.840 --> 00:41:06.239
Because I do remember that moment in the end of the world where Jabe puts her hand on the doctors and the doctor starts weeping.

403
00:41:06.300 --> 00:41:30.659
And I, you know, I think that perhaps the only time that we got anywhere near that is Pertwe at the end of the Green Death, and that's so rare, and that now becomes the show's kind of default mode, that we do know how the doctor feels about things, and we have some idea of why. and that becomes a focus of the show.

404
00:41:30.719 --> 00:41:38.820
It's a little bit like what this story is doing as well, which is reintroducing the doctor as a superhero.

405
00:41:38.880 --> 00:41:44.219
And the doctor isn't a superhero when the show starts at all.

406
00:41:44.280 --> 00:41:53.400
And even in the classic series, the doctor, even though he has a habit of overthrowing an oppressive government once a month.

407
00:41:53.820 --> 00:41:56.099
We never reflect on that.

408
00:41:56.159 --> 00:41:57.119
Do you know what I mean?

409
00:41:57.239 --> 00:41:59.940
We never sit back and think, well, what does that make him?

410
00:42:00.000 --> 00:42:11.820
And both Russell and even more Moffatt take that on board as part of the character's kind of reputation and as part of his kind of his self-perception?

411
00:42:12.000 --> 00:42:18.300
Previously, I think he was an anarchist, and that kind of doesn't work in 21st century television.

412
00:42:18.360 --> 00:42:21.420
You need someone who's sort of got the chops to bring about this kind of change.

413
00:42:21.480 --> 00:42:26.880
Like you can't just walk into a society and bring it down overnight because it might just look to the audience a bit twee.

414
00:42:26.940 --> 00:42:29.820
Oh, yeah, that's definitely possible.

415
00:42:29.880 --> 00:42:31.380
I think there's something in that.

416
00:42:31.440 --> 00:42:35.579
My mind was going in terms of just, this is kind of what you said before, Nathan.

417
00:42:35.639 --> 00:42:38.639
This is the syntax and grammar of 21st century television.

418
00:42:38.639 --> 00:42:47.460
And the interiority of a character like the doctor, which was forbidden up until even you think about like the Virgin you adventure style guide where you weren't allowed to go into the doctor's head.

419
00:42:47.519 --> 00:42:49.139
That's not tenable anymore.

420
00:42:49.199 --> 00:42:52.079
You can't have a character like that on 21st century television.

421
00:42:52.139 --> 00:42:57.480
So we do get the doctor remoting, which goes back again to this idea of the emo lonely god.

422
00:42:57.539 --> 00:42:59.099
I just think it's always been there.

423
00:42:59.159 --> 00:43:02.579
It's now text rather than just, you know, per subtext.

424
00:43:02.639 --> 00:43:03.360
Yeah.

425
00:43:03.420 --> 00:43:20.159
I think also another place it comes from is Russell looking at the origins of the series and looking at the rejected or rather never explicitly referred to idea that the 1st doctor is fleeing a galactic war.

426
00:43:20.639 --> 00:43:27.900
And I think David Whittaker, sort of reading more and more about him really wanted to embed that.

427
00:43:27.960 --> 00:43:31.260
Like it was in the script of power of the Daleks, for instance.

428
00:43:31.320 --> 00:43:35.219
However, the producers kind of went, no, no, we want to keep things vague and nebulous.

429
00:43:35.280 --> 00:43:45.480
And I think that's possibly because science fiction at the time, whenever it showed a sort of space war, it was always really twee and lasers and there's a woman on the ship and that's bad luck.

430
00:43:45.539 --> 00:43:46.800
Captain Pike.

431
00:43:46.860 --> 00:43:56.280
But you get to 21st century television, wars have been televised since the 1970s.

432
00:43:56.460 --> 00:44:12.000
People who have not been in the armed forces have their own ideas and opinions and thoughts on war, and Russell very clearly has his thoughts on the most recent war, which is part of this and part of the tone for series one.

433
00:44:12.119 --> 00:44:29.579
So saying that the doctor was in a time war with sort of strange and esoteric descriptions, the audience gets that shorthand in a way that if it were said in 1963 might have seemed twee and easy to brush off.

434
00:44:30.420 --> 00:44:31.860
Yeah.

435
00:44:31.920 --> 00:44:35.880
And maybe too soon after the Second World War, maybe.

436
00:44:36.119 --> 00:44:40.260
I can just imagine Innis Lloyd saying to David Whitaker.

437
00:44:40.320 --> 00:44:43.380
Enough of this lonely god fleeing a time war.

438
00:44:43.440 --> 00:44:45.360
Let's have fluid links and static electricity.

439
00:44:45.420 --> 00:44:46.619
That's what the audience wants.

440
00:44:46.679 --> 00:44:50.280
And there is truth in that. absolutely.

441
00:44:50.340 --> 00:44:54.960
It's interesting to me how the series undercuts that lonely god thing.

442
00:44:55.019 --> 00:45:04.019
So all throughout Tenants era, and then by series 4, really, the running arc through the series is that the doctor needs his family around him.

443
00:45:04.079 --> 00:45:15.000
You know, he empowers other people and his his associates and his companions and sort of his extended family are the people who he's inspired and who eventually can save him.

444
00:45:15.059 --> 00:45:16.320
So actually, he's not a lonely god.

445
00:45:16.380 --> 00:45:18.900
It's the people around him who's inspired.

446
00:45:18.960 --> 00:45:29.519
But there is a distance between them because, you know, after journey's end where that's established, the very next time we see them all, he's saying goodbye to them.

447
00:45:29.579 --> 00:45:49.500
And so having the solution to that doctor's problem, which Russell never gets to solve because Tennant and he both leave, having that solution delayed to the giggle, where it is solved properly, and he does get to stay with a group of people who he loves and are a family.

448
00:45:49.559 --> 00:45:53.280
I think, you know, that's perfect.

449
00:45:53.340 --> 00:46:01.559
And like you said, many times, Nathan Moffat, as a showrunner, is not interested in giving the doctor a regular group of compatriots about him.

450
00:46:01.619 --> 00:46:03.599
He's more interested in the doctor and his companions.

451
00:46:03.659 --> 00:46:17.340
And so I think the fact that you've got to wait from Journeys end and the end of time, and then basically leapfrog, the entire Moffat and Chipmull eras, to get back to that point with Russell T. Davies is pretty fun.

452
00:46:31.860 --> 00:46:38.639
What do we think that Russell has learned from previous soft reboots of the show here?

453
00:46:39.360 --> 00:46:43.260
Stick the doctor in a 0 cabinet for half the episode.

454
00:46:44.820 --> 00:46:59.280
We actually did say something about this in our Spearhead from Space episode because there is something about making us wait for the doctor, which make sense in all sorts of ways.

455
00:46:59.340 --> 00:47:27.000
But when your 1st story is 425 minute episode spaced over 4 weeks, having to wait for the doctor's hero moments for several weeks, when you might be tuning in just to see what the new doctor is like, all you get in Spearhead from Space episode one is that conversation with the brigadier who doesn't recognise him and some burbling about his shoes.

456
00:47:27.179 --> 00:47:29.579
Yes, unhand me, man.

457
00:47:31.199 --> 00:47:42.960
Here we actually get to do what both Castra Volver and Spearhead from Space want to do, which is kind of delay the reveal of the real new doctor.

458
00:47:42.960 --> 00:47:46.260
And, you know, Russell is right.

459
00:47:46.320 --> 00:47:50.159
You can't do it two-thirds of the way through.

460
00:47:50.219 --> 00:47:52.920
You have to do it at the very, very end.

461
00:47:52.980 --> 00:47:55.199
And then I think Julie or Jane.

462
00:47:55.260 --> 00:47:56.400
I don't know who's responsible.

463
00:47:56.460 --> 00:47:57.300
Lorraine Hegasy.

464
00:47:57.360 --> 00:47:58.679
Lorraine Hegasy, right?

465
00:47:58.800 --> 00:47:59.280
Okay.

466
00:47:59.340 --> 00:48:04.320
She's also right to say, actually, you can't make us wait that long either.

467
00:48:04.380 --> 00:48:15.960
I think it's very interesting that for the examples of Spearhead and Castra Volver, part of the function of that is getting to know 2 new characters.

468
00:48:16.139 --> 00:48:23.219
Because even though they've been introduced in previous stories, Mr. and Tegan haven't interacted that much.

469
00:48:23.280 --> 00:48:28.860
So it establishes their relationship because Matthew Waterhouse as Adric is sidelined as well for that.

470
00:48:28.980 --> 00:48:34.679
So it establishes their relationship, it establishes Liz and the Brigadier's relationship in Spearhead.

471
00:48:34.739 --> 00:48:48.239
But here, we're establishing relationships that are already established, except we've never been able to spend as much time with them because Rose has always wanted to get going again, and now she can't.

472
00:48:48.300 --> 00:48:54.000
And she's having to turn to 2 people she's rejected in the past for support.

473
00:48:54.059 --> 00:49:01.500
Like there's a bit where She's turning to Mickey for support and Mickey says you really love him, don't you?

474
00:49:01.559 --> 00:49:09.179
And in my mind, Rose's natural reaction to that should be, okay, this is uncomfortable and making Mickey uncomfortable.

475
00:49:09.239 --> 00:49:11.639
Instead, she cuddles him, you know.

476
00:49:11.699 --> 00:49:16.380
And then she breaks down to Jackie and says he's left me, he's left me.

477
00:49:16.380 --> 00:49:24.840
And both Jackie and Mickey step up to support Rose in this moment. visibly not having any of her nonsense though.

478
00:49:24.900 --> 00:49:25.739
Do you know what I mean?

479
00:49:25.800 --> 00:49:39.900
Like, they're kind of both visibly annoyed at her and particularly Jackie, but he's left me thing, where the real issue would seem to be that the doctor's not there to prevent them all being killed by the big giant spaceship.

480
00:49:39.960 --> 00:49:43.139
Yeah, you know. which I think is a great choice.

481
00:49:43.199 --> 00:49:46.619
And, like, there's that way of characterising Rose.

482
00:49:46.679 --> 00:49:57.000
Like Rose is an interesting enough character to maintain this episode, but she's not necessarily a nice person and I really like that.

483
00:49:57.059 --> 00:50:04.679
I like the fact that Rose is always the centre of Rose's universe and this might be... the purest iteration of it.

484
00:50:05.099 --> 00:50:11.519
And then when they retreat to the TARDIS and Jackie's arguing with it, Rose admits it's like, I've got nothing else.

485
00:50:11.579 --> 00:50:13.320
Like, this isn't a plan.

486
00:50:13.380 --> 00:50:14.820
This is just retreating.

487
00:50:14.880 --> 00:50:18.300
And it's actually then Jackie and Mickey who are suggesting things.

488
00:50:18.360 --> 00:50:21.239
Like, Jackie's like, okay, I'm going to get us a cup of tea and rose.

489
00:50:21.300 --> 00:50:22.679
Oh, yeah, that'll solve everything.

490
00:50:22.739 --> 00:50:23.460
And it actually does.

491
00:50:23.519 --> 00:50:25.739
She's such a sucky bitch.

492
00:50:25.800 --> 00:50:27.900
It's wonderful, isn't it?

493
00:50:27.960 --> 00:50:28.559
Awesome.

494
00:50:28.619 --> 00:50:33.780
And even Mickey is the one who suggests using the scanner to find out what's going on and Rose is like, yeah, whatever you want.

495
00:50:33.840 --> 00:50:37.800
It's funny when what you were saying about that because this is the robot mould, isn't it?

496
00:50:37.860 --> 00:50:46.920
This is coming back to the characters we know and establishing relationships between them concerning the new doctor, whereas they have pre-established relationships.

497
00:50:46.980 --> 00:50:48.360
And it's the same in robot.

498
00:50:48.420 --> 00:50:54.059
I think in robot, we get our 1st real scenes between the Brigadier and Sarah Jane Smith.

499
00:50:54.119 --> 00:51:01.679
They've insected before, but then you'll get those lovely scenes in robot where they're actually their mutual concern for the doctor brings them together.

500
00:51:01.739 --> 00:51:05.880
And there's the bit where the brigadier is telling Sarah. who's an investigative journalist.

501
00:51:05.940 --> 00:51:09.960
Let's not forget about the secret plans for a disintegrated gun.

502
00:51:09.960 --> 00:51:11.820
And she calls him one and says, why are you telling me?

503
00:51:11.880 --> 00:51:13.320
He says, well, there's no one else I can tell.

504
00:51:13.380 --> 00:51:19.860
And so you see sort of, you know, it's like the characters move around in their puzzle box and establish new relationships because of the change doctor.

505
00:51:19.920 --> 00:51:24.659
I think that's spot on and absolutely, I agree with all of that.

506
00:51:24.719 --> 00:51:26.280
The other thing I think that it does.

507
00:51:26.340 --> 00:51:32.699
And perhaps that it learns from Castravelve and Spearhead, that's what not to do.

508
00:51:32.760 --> 00:51:41.880
And that is to give the doctor a 1st little mini hero moment at the end of the 1st act, just so that we can see, oh, he's actually the doctor.

509
00:51:41.940 --> 00:51:42.780
It's him.

510
00:51:42.840 --> 00:51:48.840
He's actually really good, and then he goes back into his coma until basically the 3rd act, which we don't get in Castrovale.

511
00:51:48.960 --> 00:51:50.159
Got to see if Lorraine Legacy.

512
00:51:50.219 --> 00:51:55.860
We don't get in Castro Elber and we don't get until basically part 4 of Spearhead from Space as well.

513
00:51:55.920 --> 00:51:59.039
So I think that's probably something that he's looked and learned from.

514
00:51:59.099 --> 00:52:03.539
You probably don't get it until the last scene of the twin dilemma, which is courageous at stake.

515
00:52:03.599 --> 00:52:04.559
Yeah.

516
00:52:04.619 --> 00:52:19.380
And what's so strange, I was just going to talk about the twin dilemma in time of the Rani in relation to this, the twin dilemma is written with the idea in mind of, okay, Peter Davis almost unconscious for 3 episodes, let's have Colin awake all the way through.

517
00:52:19.440 --> 00:52:23.340
But let's make him totally undoctor-like, you know.

518
00:52:23.400 --> 00:52:33.480
And then time in the Rani comes along and Silver's conscious all the way through, but it's Sylvester McCoy playing Colin Baker and having been cast sort of 2 weeks ago.

519
00:52:34.260 --> 00:52:43.380
Also, it commits Russell's definition of the Cardinal Doctor Who sent off, we don't care about what's happening to the Zog monsters on Planet Zog.

520
00:52:43.440 --> 00:52:44.820
You know?

521
00:52:44.880 --> 00:52:54.960
And I say that as any regular listener will know, as someone who adores time in the Rani and if anything happens to it, I will kill everyone and then myself.

522
00:52:55.320 --> 00:52:59.760
I wish Russell had taken more inspiration from time and the writing.

523
00:52:59.820 --> 00:53:02.579
I think we were cheated out of Billy Piper dressing up as the run.

524
00:53:03.539 --> 00:53:06.480
We do have Buddy Langford back.

525
00:53:06.539 --> 00:53:07.920
So anything could happen.

526
00:53:08.280 --> 00:53:11.400
I'm gonna get killed by a bubble trap.

527
00:53:36.480 --> 00:53:39.059
Well, that's all the time we have for this week.

528
00:53:39.119 --> 00:53:40.860
We'll be back again next week.

529
00:53:40.980 --> 00:53:49.679
And ten months into the future, to see how a Doctor Who spinoff gets started in Torchwood's first episode, Everything changes.

530
00:53:50.039 --> 00:54:09.000
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts, and you can keep up with us on our website, 500yearDiary.com, where you'll find our social media links, as well as links to all of our other podcasts, including our other Doctor Who podcasts, flight through entirety, and the 2nd great and bountiful human empire.

531
00:54:09.179 --> 00:54:15.780
Until next time, may you find someone who loves you the way Russell T. Davies hates Tony Blair.

532
00:54:15.840 --> 00:54:18.300
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

533
00:54:18.360 --> 00:54:19.380
Good night.

534
00:54:19.440 --> 00:54:20.460
Good night.

535
00:54:20.579 --> 00:54:21.780
Be seeing you.

536
00:54:21.840 --> 00:54:23.460
Don't you think I look tired?

537
00:54:37.019 --> 00:54:43.199
That was 500 year diary, starring Nathan Bottomley, Stephen B, Brendan Jones, and Peter Griffiths.

538
00:54:43.260 --> 00:54:45.659
The theme was composed by Cameron Lamb.

539
00:54:45.719 --> 00:54:51.719
This episode, Indie Revival, was recorded on the 4th of April 2024, and released on the 5th of May.

540
00:54:53.400 --> 00:55:05.159
Well, it's less than a week until the latest season of Doctor Who drops, and we'll be there just a few days later with our hot takes on the 1st 2 episodes on the 2nd great and bountiful Human Empire.

541
00:55:05.219 --> 00:55:12.420
So make sure you've subscribed on your podcatcher of choice, or that you've bookmarked us at greatandbountiful.com.

542
00:55:21.480 --> 00:55:22.260
What do you think?

543
00:55:22.320 --> 00:55:23.760
We are an hour in.

544
00:55:23.820 --> 00:55:28.559
We haven't done the finale, the closing thing because I forgot.

545
00:55:28.619 --> 00:55:29.940
So we have to do that.

546
00:55:30.000 --> 00:55:34.079
I think we also haven't talked about why David Tennant's so irritating.

547
00:55:34.139 --> 00:55:37.260
Ah, I think he is.

548
00:55:37.320 --> 00:55:39.420
Okay, I think.

549
00:55:39.539 --> 00:55:45.059
Because I actually wanted to say, I just thought it was the lonely god thing, you know what I mean?

550
00:55:45.119 --> 00:55:46.380
I know a way it.

551
00:55:46.440 --> 00:55:49.260
So like, oh, maybe this can be a tag.

552
00:55:49.320 --> 00:55:50.400
Yeah, I mean?

553
00:55:50.519 --> 00:55:50.820
Yeah.

554
00:55:50.880 --> 00:56:11.760
So, like the thing, the experience of watching it last night was, and my experience of watching David Tennant in general, including in the 60th anniversary specials is he is always so much better than I expect him to be because they're, you know, like the ticks start to take over during the course of his run, teeth.

555
00:56:11.820 --> 00:56:22.679
The teeth acting, the sticking the tongue on the roof of his mouth, you know, like while he's thinking, like just all sorts of ticks and things.

556
00:56:22.679 --> 00:56:45.119
And, you know, sometimes the show addresses that, you know, there's like in science and the library, I think I've mentioned this heaps of times before, where the mask drops, where River says something to the doctor, and like he's just not, like he doesn't, he stops all of that nonsense and and we actually see the doctor, and that the doctors are performing. you know, in lots of ways.

557
00:56:45.179 --> 00:56:48.420
I don't know why you find why don't you find him irritating?

558
00:56:48.480 --> 00:56:50.820
I find him irritating because he's so bloody good.

559
00:56:53.280 --> 00:56:56.400
But you know, it's sort of a variation of what you said.

560
00:56:56.460 --> 00:56:58.739
I'll put in a David Tenner episode.

561
00:56:58.800 --> 00:57:00.059
I'm like, okay, here we go.

562
00:57:00.119 --> 00:57:02.880
I know there's something that's going to set my teeth on edge and then I get to the end.

563
00:57:02.940 --> 00:57:06.000
I'm like, no, you're actually just magnificent, you bastard.

564
00:57:06.059 --> 00:57:09.300
Like, speaking of someone who likes Matt Smith better.

565
00:57:09.360 --> 00:57:10.500
You know what I mean?

566
00:57:10.559 --> 00:57:15.780
And I think Matt Smith is a better actor, but Tenant's performance is always just so great.

567
00:57:15.840 --> 00:57:16.679
It's so compelling.

568
00:57:16.739 --> 00:57:22.079
I mean, there's, you know, who else could you possibly have brought back for the 60th anniversary?

569
00:57:22.139 --> 00:57:23.820
There's just no contest.

570
00:57:23.880 --> 00:57:27.179
You know, even though I think, you know, Capoldi's incredible.

571
00:57:27.239 --> 00:57:29.219
I think Matt Smith is incredible.

572
00:57:29.280 --> 00:57:34.559
I think, you know, this is the doctor and the doctor when the show was at, it's absolute high.

573
00:57:34.619 --> 00:57:37.739
Paul McGann, Nathan, Paul McGann.

574
00:57:38.340 --> 00:57:40.380
Only with a wig.

575
00:57:40.440 --> 00:57:43.800
Paul McGann without the wig is not canon.

576
00:57:43.920 --> 00:57:53.159
I think the reason that David Tennant irritates you is the reason he is so successful in the eyes of the general public.

577
00:57:53.219 --> 00:58:02.940
He is a really broadly acceptable and charismatic and therefore slightly bland iteration of the doctor.

578
00:58:03.000 --> 00:58:13.920
It's why fans, I think, like Matt Smith's performance, that sort of that more doctorary slightly idiosyncratic performance versus David Tennants.

579
00:58:13.980 --> 00:58:27.480
David Tennant is playing it as an acting part without leaning into all of that doctorishness, which is kind of like removed from what Christopher Eccleston was doing, but is sort of more in the Doctor Who mould.

580
00:58:27.539 --> 00:58:35.460
And I think that's why a broad audience really loves him as the doctor, because he's kind of acceptable and accessible to everyone.

581
00:58:35.639 --> 00:58:42.000
He's much more human, like that Matt Smith thing of not being able to tell if someone's pregnant and stuff like that.

582
00:58:42.059 --> 00:58:47.400
Like all of that sort of weird Martian nonsense that he goes on with, which is really fun and properly funny.

583
00:58:47.460 --> 00:58:50.880
Um, but tenant's not at all like that.

584
00:58:50.940 --> 00:58:56.760
I mean, he is the most human of the doctors, isn't he?

585
00:58:56.820 --> 00:59:16.679
And I think, um, and also I just think the verbal, just the, that performance, that huge speech that he comes out with, where he's really kind of mercurial, you know, 12nd he's doing the sicker axe's voice, you know, that, just ridiculous line, the, it's a fat in hand line.

586
00:59:16.739 --> 00:59:19.980
Like, that's so weird, annoying.

587
00:59:20.039 --> 00:59:22.260
No one else would ever have done it.

588
00:59:22.320 --> 00:59:23.760
I really like it.

589
00:59:23.820 --> 00:59:24.900
I think it's really funny.

590
00:59:24.960 --> 00:59:40.440
Um, um, the Arthur Dent references the Lion King references, like all of that stuff, you know, like he is smart without being a boffin, you know, he's because he's just fast and verbal and funny.

591
00:59:40.980 --> 00:59:46.800
It's because he's not talking about Isaac Newton and that kind of thing. talking about Harry Potter.

592
00:59:46.860 --> 00:59:50.460
And so that's what the kids who are watching would be referencing.

593
00:59:50.519 --> 00:59:51.000
Yeah, yeah.

594
00:59:51.059 --> 01:00:07.260
I think it's also for that reason why David Tennant is cast at exactly the right time and why Christopher Eccleston, as much of a powerhouse, as he is in series one, it's probably for the good of the show that David is the doctor as it moves into its imperial phase.

595
01:00:08.460 --> 01:00:10.619
Yeah, yeah, I think you're right.

596
01:00:10.679 --> 01:00:11.460
I think you're right.

597
01:00:11.519 --> 01:00:12.840
He's nowhere near as accessible.

598
01:00:12.900 --> 01:00:23.820
And having a Doctor Who's spiky and prickly, like my thing is that I think the best performance of any actor in the role and the best conception of the character is Tom in Horror Fang Rock.

599
01:00:23.880 --> 01:00:26.400
Like I would just have that all the time.

600
01:00:27.840 --> 01:00:41.039
But, you know, it's a bit less fun. than tenant, you know, going at a 1000000 miles an hour and just sort of being witty and funny and, you know, just wordy.

601
01:00:41.099 --> 01:00:41.880
Yeah.

602
01:00:41.880 --> 01:00:49.860
And we will eventually get the series going back to that with Capaldi's characterisation, which is extremely successful.

603
01:00:49.920 --> 01:00:56.940
And again, a lot of fans absolutely love Peter Capaldi in his performance, but it is undoubtedly playing to a smaller audience.

604
01:00:57.300 --> 01:00:58.679
Yes.

605
01:00:59.940 --> 01:01:02.280
All right, I think we won.

606
01:01:02.340 --> 01:01:02.880
What do you think?

607
01:01:02.940 --> 01:01:04.980
Let's do the finale again.

608
01:01:05.039 --> 01:01:06.599
It's good night in the bright order.

609
01:01:06.659 --> 01:01:09.659
Normally we would do this at the beginning, but I forget.