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This transcript was created on 2026-05-03 at 08:35:44

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to 500 year diary.

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The only Doctor Who podcast that's all about second chances with

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that kind of a podcast.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm Peter.

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And I'm Stephen.

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It's Christmas 2005.

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It's been one hell of a year for the UK generally, and for Doctor

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Who fans in particular, and here's how it ends, with a Christmas

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special watch by 9.80000 people, introducing the new new doctor

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just over 40 years after the introduction of the 1st new doctor.

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Let's see how this introduction shapes the history of the new

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series as we discussed the Christmas invasion.

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So, one of the things about the new series is that it is almost

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immediately haunted by the idea of imminent cancellation, and that

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is, of course, because we get the announcement, almost immediately

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after the airing of Rose, that Christopher Eccleston is quitting.

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It's the fear that fans have lived with for their entire lives.

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It was so I just, I have this very strong memory of being insanely

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happy for all of 2005.

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And I remember someone stopping me at work and saying, wow, you

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seem to be in a really good place right now and I said, yeah, you

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know, Doctor Who's back.

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And this was kind of like, you know, to have it just cruelly

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threatened, cruelly taken away.

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And I do remember someone at work coming up to me again and saying

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you heard the news.

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Yeah.

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Did they announce in the same breath or did they announce earlier

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or later that the series was going to get a 2nd series and have a

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Christmas special?

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It was pretty much in the same breath.

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I believe it was 2 separate announcements on the same day.

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And it's still never been confirmed why that Eccleston

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announcement went out because Russell T. Davies didn't want it to

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go out.

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It had been drafted pretty much to go out after parting of the

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ways to make it a surprise for generation, but somehow it went out

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at the same time and, you know, Eccleston has said that it was

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part of the BBC, basically blacklisting him for a few years.

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That's possible, but to me, it's probably just incredibly terrible

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timing from someone in the publicity department who doesn't

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understand that this is a big deal.

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And Chris was on board with like keeping up the pretence because

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he fulfilled all his obligations to promote the new series in the

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lead up to Rose.

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And when they asked him questions like, um, you know, are you

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doing a 2nd year?

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you know, does it feel like you've got a big future?

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He would sort of answer with, oh, I think I've done the hard yards

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this year and really sort of play it down.

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There's an interview that's with that ridiculous series one box

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set, the TARDIS box set.

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And the interviewer says to Eccleston, are you in it for the long

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haul?

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And he says, I think I've just done the long haul..

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Yeah, well remembered.

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Yeah.

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And of course, by the time we saw that, we knew exactly what he

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meant.

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So Russell goes into the new show with a very definite plan and a

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definite idea for the doctor that's based on Eccleston's

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portrayal.

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And he is, I think, forced, of course correct, isn't he?

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I think that's true, Nathan.

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Obviously, he would have not anticipated that Chris would have

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left after a single season or series rather, but I think it

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actually plays out for the best.

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There's so much healing, I guess, that the character does in that

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1st series.

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And I think that would have come to fruition in that 2nd series

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had Chris been in the part.

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But there's something that maybe only a change of doctor brings in

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terms of, you know, fresh air, I guess, into the part and into the

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series and, you know, having Tennant, who's such a happy smiley

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character and as an actor as well as a, as in the part, maybe

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helps to sort of refresh the show after sort of bringing it back

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from the wilderness years where the time war is the metaphor for

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that.

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And we have a sort of PTSD doctor I've said in the past, that's

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that's not tenant.

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Tenet is much more, perhaps on the other side of that, and I can

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absolutely see how Christopher Eccleston, as the doctor in series

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2, could have worked and it would have been a triumph, but equally

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I feel like there's some kind of new start with Tenet, and it

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works wonderfully for it.

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On the surface of it, the Christmas invasion doesn't feel like a

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reboot.

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It feels very much of a piece with series one.

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And, you know, it has a lot in common.

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It starts with that big shot of the earth from Rose, where you

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zoom in to some action.

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It looks like series one and then you get Jackie and Mickey and

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then Harriet Jones and there are shots of Central London with a

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spaceship in the sky.

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And so it feels like, you know, it has a lot of DNA in common with

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some like aliens of London.

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And to match that, Russell goes with the spearhead from space

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robot model of having familiar faces around to cushion the new

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doctor into the role.

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But having said that, I think this is quite a reboot for the show

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because it's now a very different series.

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It's Doctor Who is a popular success again, which they didn't know

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it would be in the 1st series.

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And so it's not that old show, Doctor Who, which came back and

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people liked it again.

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It's Doctor Who, all caps.

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And so the opener with the TARDIS is like a big barnstorming

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statement of intent.

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And it sort of, I think the episode refines the formula and makes

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Doc 2 a long-term prospect rather than a one series prospect and

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sort of boils down the essence of what RTD Doctor Who is.

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What do you think gets left behind?

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Like, I think Russell could have just said, all right, we'll just

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recast the doctrine, keep doing what we were doing.

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And I think we agree that there's some kind of course correction.

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What gets left behind in season one?

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Lens Flair?

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For the most part.

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That's all right.

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Chippers brings that back.

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Something that I think gets left behind.

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Although it is, it is still present because it's an essential part

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of the character.

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But perhaps a better way to put it would be less emphasised is

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loneliness.

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Yeah.

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The 10th doctor is immediately a less lonely character than the

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ninth doctor.

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And something Russell wanted to highlight in the script, and one

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of his 1st thoughts was the new doctor having Christmas dinner

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with the tilers.

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Yeah.

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And not only is that what the story builds up to, but you have

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Jackie and Mickey and Rose.

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Throughout this episode, their immediate response is to take care

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of the doctor, to bring him into their home, to put him into a bed

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you know, and check what else he's got to of.

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What else he got to?

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I find it incredibly touching that scene where Rose goes into the

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bedroom and sees that Jackie has fallen asleep while just sitting

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with the doctor.

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Like, I think that's really, really just lovely.

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Like, you know, Jackie is such a great comedy character and such a

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flake and and, you know, a bit of an idiot and stuff, but she has

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a big heart in a way that Rose kind of doesn't.

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And that I just find that actually quite moving.

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He's been being rude to her.

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He is a bit of a dick.

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But now he's a kind of younger man and he's unwell and vulnerable

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and she wants to look after him and I think that's really lovely.

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And there may be a scene, I think, before that, where Jackie just

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comes in to check on him quietly and just puts a cup of tea next

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to the bed and it's like, it's really just so caring.

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And I think that shows in the doctor's performance with the

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regulars with Eccleston, it sort of played off Eccleston's spiky

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demeanour and reputation to kind of have him at loggerheads with

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the people in Rose's life, whereas that becomes gentler humour.

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And so the doctor is actually quite pleased to have Mickey and

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Jackie around and we'll join with a group hug in the end and that

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kind of thing. go to Christmas dinner with them.

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And I think it's a softer, less spiky series for it.

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The doctor is actually really massively unlikeable at the end of

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World War 3, isn't he?

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where he just makes Rose choose between Jackie and him.

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And, you know, there's not going to be a dinner together.

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There isn't going to be anything like that.

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I don't do that.

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And he's verging on being a kind of manipulative boyfriend, I

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think.

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Like, and that's deliberate.

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Russell knows what he's doing.

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He is making the character genuinely unlikeable, but that's

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unthinkable, I think, with tenants, Doctor.

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Yeah, completely.

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And I think in addition to that, that it spikiness sort of

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abrasiveness, um, which sort of comes with Eccleston's portrayal

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but also perhaps just, you know, him as an actor as well.

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As I say, I can imagine that mellowing in the 2nd in the 2nd

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series, but Tenant really, it just clicks automatically and maybe

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the fact that there is a fresh face there helps to sort of, you

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know, signal that as well.

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But in terms of what I feel like series one, what's left behind

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from series one is the tentativeness.

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It kind of reminds me in terms of, I think Moffat has said this

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about season 12, Tom, in season 12 is a little bit on his best

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behaviour and he's just wondering, is this going to work?

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Is this going to land?

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And that's the show.

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That's actually the entire show during series one where they're

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giving it their best and they're really trying to put the, you

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know, best foot forward, but there's no guarantee actually that

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this is going to land.

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And when it does eventually blow up, when it hits the screens, you

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know, they come back for series 2 and it's just much more

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confident that tentativeness has been left behind.

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It happens over over and over again in Doc 2, doesn't it?

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You look at kind of the Tom example when he comes back in terror

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of the zygons and all of a sudden it's a very different and darker

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and more confident portrayal.

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We said it with Matt Smith in his 1st series, once he's seen

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himself on screen and he knows that he's a hit and he comes back

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for a Christmas carol, the performance is different.

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I like to think that Eccleston also would have kind of mellowed

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into the role a little bit, but I think this is almost Casanova

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flavoured.

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So David Tennant was leading Casanova in 2004, the Russell T

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Davies version.

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And this brings that kind of that joie de viv which Eccleston had

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to force slightly and sort of puts it front and centre in the

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role.

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Because that's a feature of Reckleston's performance too, isn't

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it?

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Like, it's very clear that all of his sort of jollity is forced

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and that's underlined by how uncomfortable the actor himself seems

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to be with that sort of material.

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Yeah, um, something Christopher Eccleston has said now that he's

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making big finish stories is the main element that he felt

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uncomfortable with as the doctor was the comedy, but he's quick to

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point out, it's not the writing, it's not the direction, it's how

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he was playing it.

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And he's kind of like having now gone back and rewatched

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everything before I've recorded these.

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I know how I would have done it differently now.

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And if I'd continued, I know how I would have done it.

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But at the same time, I just found the fact that he is an actor

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was uncomfortable with the comedy made it funnier.

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Whereas David Tennant, I think, has a greater natural comedic

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ability in the same way that, say, Tom Baker had.

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And funnily enough, I'd say it's different to the comedic ability

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of, say, John Bertley, who was a professional comedian.

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But when you see him act, it's very clear he wants to be a serious

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actor with flashes of comedy, whereas you can imagine David

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Tennant, if he hadn't been an actor having a very successful

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career as a stand-up comedian.

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Well, at the same time, though, I don't know if it would have

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taken Christopher Eckliston 15 years to figure that out.

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Like, had he decided to stay on for series two, he probably would

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have gone away, watched the tapes at that point because I don't

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even know if DVDs were out at that stage and come back and sort of

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realised, oh, no, this is where I want to take it.

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And also this is where the scripts are taking.

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00:13:24.240 --> 00:13:26.279
He would have seen the Christmas invasion and just brought that

245
00:13:26.279 --> 00:13:28.559
warmth, I think, and reflected on that.

246
00:13:28.620 --> 00:13:32.940
But you're right, there is that kind of, I guess, difference in

247
00:13:32.940 --> 00:13:35.700
Kristen's performance from series one to what we see in the big

248
00:13:35.700 --> 00:13:38.399
finish audios where he's more comfortable with that kind of

249
00:13:38.399 --> 00:13:39.120
material, I guess.

250
00:13:39.360 --> 00:13:42.899
He certainly wouldn't have been watching the DVDs because I was

251
00:13:42.899 --> 00:13:45.240
living in Britain at the time and working for Doctor Who magazine

252
00:13:45.240 --> 00:13:47.700
and we were getting the preview tapes and they were these ratty

253
00:13:47.700 --> 00:13:48.899
old.

254
00:13:50.519 --> 00:13:52.740
Good old BBC.

255
00:13:52.799 --> 00:13:54.059
Always cheaping out.

256
00:13:54.539 --> 00:13:58.919
I do remember on Outpost Gallifrey at the time, there were very

257
00:13:58.919 --> 00:14:03.960
very heated threads that we weren't getting VHS releases this

258
00:14:03.960 --> 00:14:04.860
season.

259
00:14:04.919 --> 00:14:07.440
Fast forward and we're not getting VHS releases now.

260
00:14:07.559 --> 00:14:09.120
That's true.

261
00:14:10.200 --> 00:14:13.919
To the point that, you know, people were making their own covers

262
00:14:13.919 --> 00:14:18.659
and it led to this whole cottage cover industry and artists like

263
00:14:18.659 --> 00:14:24.419
Tom Webster and Simon Halube and Soundsmith have all come out of

264
00:14:24.419 --> 00:14:27.899
that forum artwork making.

265
00:14:27.960 --> 00:14:31.860
Andrew Wharton, for instance, who is now like working on 3D

266
00:14:31.860 --> 00:14:33.360
renderings for the Blu-ray range.

267
00:14:33.419 --> 00:14:39.960
There's so many fan talents have their origins in this era as well

268
00:14:39.960 --> 00:14:47.580
where everything was so mysterious to us and there was this sort

269
00:14:47.580 --> 00:14:51.899
of car crash sense of is this going to be terrible?

270
00:14:52.320 --> 00:14:55.679
You know, it's Christopher Eccleston.

271
00:14:55.740 --> 00:14:58.440
What's Christopher Eccleston's most doctor-ish role before you've

272
00:14:58.440 --> 00:15:00.000
seen Christopher Eccleston as the doctor?

273
00:15:00.059 --> 00:15:03.960
It's as that guy in the League of Gentlemen with the silly hat.

274
00:15:04.919 --> 00:15:12.000
I think his role as, I think it's Steve Baxter in the 2nd coming

275
00:15:12.000 --> 00:15:13.740
is his most.

276
00:15:13.799 --> 00:15:16.679
That's true to say his role as Jesus Christ.

277
00:15:19.679 --> 00:15:24.000
The other thing I think that gets left behind is the he's a bit of

278
00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:28.320
a bully, like there is this anxiety which we've all identified

279
00:15:28.320 --> 00:15:32.220
about the show being for nerds.

280
00:15:32.279 --> 00:15:36.059
And so the kind of science fiction language where we get, you know

281
00:15:36.059 --> 00:15:42.179
planet Earth and stuff like that, you know, just worlds and skies

282
00:15:42.179 --> 00:15:45.360
and stuff like that, just normal words for things where we were

283
00:15:45.360 --> 00:15:47.159
used to space terms for them all.

284
00:15:47.220 --> 00:15:51.000
He makes some Snider remark about Adam's A levels and stuff.

285
00:15:51.600 --> 00:15:55.740
There's just a kind of slight bullying thing about it.

286
00:15:55.799 --> 00:16:00.120
And a sort of reluctance to kind of be too smart, I think.

287
00:16:00.179 --> 00:16:02.879
And of course, his relationship with Mickey, where, you know

288
00:16:02.879 --> 00:16:04.259
constantly Mickey the idiot.

289
00:16:04.320 --> 00:16:05.159
Yeah.

290
00:16:05.220 --> 00:16:05.820
Yeah.

291
00:16:05.879 --> 00:16:10.620
He warms to Mickey, I think, and it is by the end of episode

292
00:16:10.620 --> 00:16:11.639
five.

293
00:16:11.700 --> 00:16:15.659
I think, you know, there's some grudging respect, and he even lies

294
00:16:15.659 --> 00:16:17.580
to Rose for Mickey's benefit there.

295
00:16:18.179 --> 00:16:23.279
The other story that I, I've always wondered how Russell reacted

296
00:16:23.279 --> 00:16:28.500
to this because in the original show outline, it says something

297
00:16:28.500 --> 00:16:31.080
about the doctor, it says something about not introducing

298
00:16:31.080 --> 00:16:31.740
regeneration.

299
00:16:31.740 --> 00:16:35.580
And it says something about the doctor not being a new to public

300
00:16:35.580 --> 00:16:36.360
schoolboy.

301
00:16:36.419 --> 00:16:40.320
So there was a very much an idea that the doctor wouldn't be

302
00:16:40.320 --> 00:16:41.820
eccentrically dressed either.

303
00:16:41.879 --> 00:16:42.600
Right?

304
00:16:42.659 --> 00:16:45.419
that he had enough to be going on with.

305
00:16:45.480 --> 00:16:48.960
And then when he has that interview with David Tennant and says, I

306
00:16:48.960 --> 00:16:50.100
want you to be the new doctor.

307
00:16:50.159 --> 00:16:53.460
Tennant immediately says, I want a coat that goes down to my

308
00:16:53.460 --> 00:16:54.059
ankles.

309
00:16:54.120 --> 00:16:56.159
I think, well, there's that plan out.

310
00:16:56.159 --> 00:16:59.460
And we know then we are definitely having a Doctor Who outfit.

311
00:16:59.519 --> 00:17:02.580
And that's the other thing, I think, that Tenant brings is an

312
00:17:02.580 --> 00:17:06.960
awareness of what works in Doctor Who because he knows it in a way

313
00:17:06.960 --> 00:17:08.339
that Eccleston didn't.

314
00:17:08.400 --> 00:17:12.599
Well, I discovered in my reading for this episode 2 things about

315
00:17:12.599 --> 00:17:15.900
the doctor's costume that I didn't know before.

316
00:17:15.960 --> 00:17:20.099
And one was sort of shortly after he'd provisionally accepted the

317
00:17:20.099 --> 00:17:22.920
role and wasn't allowed to talk to anyone about it, but had met

318
00:17:22.920 --> 00:17:24.779
Billy Piper and she knew it was happening.

319
00:17:24.839 --> 00:17:29.279
So he was sort of watching Billy's TV appearances to get an idea

320
00:17:29.279 --> 00:17:32.579
of sort of how she worked and what have you.

321
00:17:32.640 --> 00:17:36.059
And she had an interview, I think, on Parkinson.

322
00:17:36.119 --> 00:17:38.279
And one of the other guests was Jamie Oliver.

323
00:17:38.279 --> 00:17:43.859
And Jamie Oliver was wearing sort of what became the 10th doctor's

324
00:17:43.859 --> 00:17:45.960
silhouette and the trainers and what have you.

325
00:17:46.019 --> 00:17:47.339
Super Converse.

326
00:17:47.400 --> 00:17:48.660
Super Converse.

327
00:17:48.720 --> 00:17:52.140
And David messaged Russell and said, switch on Parkey now.

328
00:17:52.200 --> 00:17:53.400
Can we dress the doctor like that?

329
00:17:54.119 --> 00:17:59.700
When it finally came time to do the suit shopping and what have

330
00:17:59.700 --> 00:18:02.279
you, as well as going to costumiers, they also just went to

331
00:18:02.279 --> 00:18:06.240
general shops and they found the pinstripe trousers that they

332
00:18:06.240 --> 00:18:08.460
really liked, but there was no matching jacket.

333
00:18:08.519 --> 00:18:13.380
So Louise Page bought a bunch of the trousers on consignment and

334
00:18:13.380 --> 00:18:17.099
unstitched them and made the jacket out of them.

335
00:18:17.160 --> 00:18:20.220
So the outfit is truly pants.

336
00:18:23.160 --> 00:18:25.440
And not even making it up.

337
00:18:26.519 --> 00:18:30.299
It's funny that you only had to go one further iteration from

338
00:18:30.299 --> 00:18:32.819
David Tennant and you hit Matt Smith and you have that definition

339
00:18:32.819 --> 00:18:36.240
of kind of the, maybe not new titty's quite sexy.

340
00:18:36.299 --> 00:18:37.619
But the public schoolboy.

341
00:18:37.680 --> 00:18:42.660
And yeah, it's pretty incredible how quickly Doctor Who returns to

342
00:18:42.660 --> 00:18:43.140
its roots.

343
00:18:43.259 --> 00:18:47.940
Both of those costumes, both for David and Matt are very, very

344
00:18:47.940 --> 00:18:49.500
fashionable at that point in time.

345
00:18:49.559 --> 00:18:51.960
You know, we're talking about that sort of indie revival of the

346
00:18:51.960 --> 00:18:54.900
early to mid 2000s, which sort of carries through even into the

347
00:18:54.900 --> 00:18:55.920
early 2010s.

348
00:18:55.920 --> 00:19:00.000
And that really shapes, I think, both David and also Matt's

349
00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:00.900
costume.

350
00:19:00.960 --> 00:19:03.240
Like, you know, I used to go to these indie clubs where, you know

351
00:19:03.240 --> 00:19:06.599
indie bands would play and people dressed like David Tennant and

352
00:19:06.599 --> 00:19:09.900
later, um, you know, Matt Smith, the bow tie, and it just, it was

353
00:19:09.900 --> 00:19:11.099
so...

354
00:19:11.099 --> 00:19:13.140
So cool at that point in time. absolutely.

355
00:19:13.259 --> 00:19:14.460
Yeah.

356
00:19:14.519 --> 00:19:19.200
You know, you look at the Dead Ringers special that goes out

357
00:19:19.200 --> 00:19:22.200
shortly after the Christmas invasion, I think, and it's the Doctor

358
00:19:22.200 --> 00:19:23.579
Who's at Christmas.

359
00:19:23.579 --> 00:19:28.500
And there Eccleston says, I was intense meat, your Doctor Who was

360
00:19:28.500 --> 00:19:32.220
just Jarvis Cocker in space. brilliant.

361
00:19:32.279 --> 00:19:34.380
Also another indie legend.

362
00:19:34.440 --> 00:19:35.339
Exactly.

363
00:19:39.960 --> 00:19:46.619
So let's talk about what is new to the show, and I made a list.

364
00:19:46.680 --> 00:19:48.900
Did you check it twice because it is Christmas.

365
00:19:51.660 --> 00:19:57.839
It's the National Orchestra of Wales and the middle eight.

366
00:19:59.579 --> 00:20:03.420
Yeah, I remember the forums when they realised the Middle 8 was

367
00:20:03.420 --> 00:20:05.160
back and then that continuity announcer.

368
00:20:05.220 --> 00:20:05.940
I talked over it.

369
00:20:06.839 --> 00:20:09.720
Almost like it's a normal TV show.

370
00:20:09.779 --> 00:20:12.240
You certainly had a whole generation of people saying, what does

371
00:20:12.240 --> 00:20:14.880
the Doctor Who theme sound like live aids feed the world?

372
00:20:16.740 --> 00:20:19.440
Well, don't they know it's Christmas time?

373
00:20:19.500 --> 00:20:23.339
I think what really marks this as a soft reboot for me.

374
00:20:23.400 --> 00:20:26.759
What's really new about the Christmas invasion is that for the

375
00:20:26.759 --> 00:20:29.640
very 1st time this is Christmas, Doctor Who.

376
00:20:29.700 --> 00:20:32.940
It's a template that the show will return to again and again over

377
00:20:32.940 --> 00:20:33.240
the years.

378
00:20:33.299 --> 00:20:37.500
Christmas is important in the BBC One schedules.

379
00:20:37.559 --> 00:20:40.019
More so, I think, back in 2005.

380
00:20:40.440 --> 00:20:43.740
It marks a very subtle but very important shift, I think, for

381
00:20:43.740 --> 00:20:48.359
Doctor Who, from hit to flagship, this episode, and it's by virtue

382
00:20:48.359 --> 00:20:51.599
of the fact that it's on Christmas Day and sort of prime in the

383
00:20:51.599 --> 00:20:52.319
schedule.

384
00:20:52.380 --> 00:20:55.140
It's mentioned in the same breath as something like strictly or

385
00:20:55.140 --> 00:20:57.299
Gavin and Stacy or EastEnders.

386
00:20:57.359 --> 00:21:01.259
And of course, you get that shot of the Sicorax ship coming over

387
00:21:01.259 --> 00:21:04.079
the Thames, which looks exactly like the EastEnders opening

388
00:21:04.079 --> 00:21:07.259
credits, and that's just got to be a reference to that.

389
00:21:08.640 --> 00:21:12.720
Christmas audiences are not a regular TV audience.

390
00:21:12.779 --> 00:21:15.359
In many respects, they're not there by choice.

391
00:21:15.420 --> 00:21:17.400
They're sort of there by inertia.

392
00:21:17.460 --> 00:21:21.720
And it's the one day of the year where people will just sit down

393
00:21:21.720 --> 00:21:25.980
and watch whatever's on with whoever they're with rather than

394
00:21:25.980 --> 00:21:27.119
being choice viewing.

395
00:21:27.180 --> 00:21:31.619
And I think British Christmas TV is designed to be this mass

396
00:21:31.619 --> 00:21:34.259
entertainment, cross-generational event.

397
00:21:34.319 --> 00:21:38.400
And Doctor Who, the program, is now, for the 1st time, I think

398
00:21:38.400 --> 00:21:42.119
what it's always claimed to be, which is that multi-generational

399
00:21:42.119 --> 00:21:43.859
crowd pleasing event.

400
00:21:43.920 --> 00:21:48.000
And so I think the show has changed irrevocably in this episode

401
00:21:48.000 --> 00:21:53.339
just by the nature of what it has become now and where it is in

402
00:21:53.339 --> 00:21:53.759
the schedules.

403
00:21:54.299 --> 00:21:58.559
Can I choke in on that and say, I think one of the main reasons

404
00:21:58.559 --> 00:22:02.099
for why it becomes a mainstream hit is Billy and David.

405
00:22:02.099 --> 00:22:05.279
And what eventually turns out to be pretty quickly, actually.

406
00:22:05.339 --> 00:22:08.700
Hey, will they, won't they, kind of dynamic between the 2 of them

407
00:22:08.700 --> 00:22:11.940
which is just a staple for mainstream hit shows, right?

408
00:22:12.000 --> 00:22:14.579
And this is the 1st time that Doctor Who does that brings romance

409
00:22:14.579 --> 00:22:16.680
into the doctor and companion dynamic.

410
00:22:16.740 --> 00:22:20.519
And I've said it before, but I think it absolutely works here in

411
00:22:20.519 --> 00:22:21.059
series 2.

412
00:22:21.240 --> 00:22:24.359
I'm a big fan of it, particularly because I just sort of look

413
00:22:24.359 --> 00:22:29.640
outside fandom and see how alluring, I guess, and how relatable

414
00:22:29.640 --> 00:22:33.299
these characters were to mainstream audiences in a way that

415
00:22:33.299 --> 00:22:34.859
probably hadn't happened for decades.

416
00:22:34.980 --> 00:22:40.200
You could believe that Eccleston and Rose were in love, you can

417
00:22:40.200 --> 00:22:42.960
believe that Tenants, Dr. and Rose are boning.

418
00:22:44.700 --> 00:22:46.319
Really?

419
00:22:46.380 --> 00:22:47.880
Quite right.

420
00:22:49.680 --> 00:22:54.900
Listener, as you cannot see us, Stephen had just taken a big swig

421
00:22:54.900 --> 00:22:57.960
of water just before Peter said that, and he's currently choking

422
00:22:57.960 --> 00:23:00.960
on the other end of the... on the other end of the call.

423
00:23:01.859 --> 00:23:06.119
It has its clearest, it has its clearest situation in the Satan

424
00:23:06.119 --> 00:23:09.059
pit where they talk about setting up home and getting a mortgage

425
00:23:09.059 --> 00:23:10.440
and that kind of thing.

426
00:23:10.500 --> 00:23:14.519
But also, I think when, you know, all through the tenant era

427
00:23:14.519 --> 00:23:17.880
doctor is incredibly popular, but it reaches its zenith in series

428
00:23:17.880 --> 00:23:22.920
4 throughout that sort of 2nd half of series 4, and that entire

429
00:23:22.920 --> 00:23:26.160
run is characterised by the will, they won't they?

430
00:23:26.220 --> 00:23:30.599
Will Rosen, Doctor, who love each other, get back together.

431
00:23:30.660 --> 00:23:37.200
I think something else that feels new about this is, yes, it's a

432
00:23:37.200 --> 00:23:38.279
Doctor Who Christmas special.

433
00:23:38.339 --> 00:23:43.200
And aside from a sort of thing of necessity with the Feast of

434
00:23:43.200 --> 00:23:46.920
Stephen, which was you've still got to put an episode on, but also

435
00:23:46.920 --> 00:23:49.619
a lot of people aren't going to be watching, so make it a series

436
00:23:49.619 --> 00:23:50.579
of vignettes.

437
00:23:50.640 --> 00:23:58.200
This is commissioned as an additional episode because the

438
00:23:58.200 --> 00:24:00.660
production team knew that a Christmas special was on the cards, but

439
00:24:00.660 --> 00:24:02.759
thought it would be part of the next order of 13.

440
00:24:02.759 --> 00:24:07.740
Instead, it becomes an order of 14, which leads us to Love and

441
00:24:07.740 --> 00:24:08.160
Monsters.

442
00:24:08.220 --> 00:24:13.259
And a lot of people sort of retrofit Boomtown as a Dr. Light

443
00:24:13.259 --> 00:24:16.980
episode, but what Boomtown was, was we're running behind.

444
00:24:17.039 --> 00:24:20.099
We need a sort of episode where we can have 3 units filming at the

445
00:24:20.099 --> 00:24:20.339
same time.

446
00:24:20.400 --> 00:24:25.140
Whereas Love and Monsters was planned very early on to be a Dr

447
00:24:25.140 --> 00:24:25.619
Light episode.

448
00:24:25.680 --> 00:24:29.940
Now, the faith this shows in the program is amazing because I

449
00:24:29.940 --> 00:24:32.700
thought, I want to have a look because I feel like Christmas

450
00:24:32.700 --> 00:24:38.160
specials weren't a super common thing and they really weren't, but

451
00:24:38.160 --> 00:24:41.759
they started to become more common for drama once Doctor Who

452
00:24:41.759 --> 00:24:42.539
started doing them.

453
00:24:42.599 --> 00:24:44.759
Now, that's not to say they hadn't happened before.

454
00:24:44.819 --> 00:24:48.420
Um, particularly, I'm thinking, all creatures, great and small, in

455
00:24:48.420 --> 00:24:52.019
the 80s, Jonathan Creek shortly leading up to this as well, but

456
00:24:52.019 --> 00:24:54.960
even that wasn't an annual thing that was just every few years.

457
00:24:55.019 --> 00:24:57.660
There'd be a new Jonathan Creek Christmas special.

458
00:24:57.720 --> 00:25:00.960
But, you know, off the back of this, we get called the midwife has

459
00:25:00.960 --> 00:25:02.579
a Christmas special every year.

460
00:25:02.640 --> 00:25:06.539
The other big example was sort of heartbeat and the soaps would

461
00:25:06.539 --> 00:25:11.160
often have a Christmas special, but I think the public perception

462
00:25:11.160 --> 00:25:12.960
was that Christmas specials are for comedies.

463
00:25:13.019 --> 00:25:13.680
Right.

464
00:25:13.740 --> 00:25:18.299
You know, so you have like Hyacinth Bouquet putting on a Christmas

465
00:25:18.299 --> 00:25:21.720
pantomime and, you know, getting crowned at the end by a crown and

466
00:25:21.720 --> 00:25:22.559
falling down.

467
00:25:22.619 --> 00:25:24.539
I think that's the last episode of keeping up appearances.

468
00:25:24.599 --> 00:25:27.720
John Inman becoming a pop star and that sort of thing.

469
00:25:28.019 --> 00:25:33.960
It's got to, I think, overcome this audience perception that this

470
00:25:33.960 --> 00:25:36.059
one's going to be played for laughs.

471
00:25:36.119 --> 00:25:40.380
And something that I think Russell does from the very beginning is

472
00:25:40.380 --> 00:25:44.519
it can have some funny Christmas moments that immediately then

473
00:25:44.519 --> 00:25:50.400
have to be something deadly. with, you know, robot Santa's, I'm

474
00:25:50.400 --> 00:25:52.019
going to be killed by a Christmas tree.

475
00:25:52.079 --> 00:25:54.960
A 3rd of the world about to jump to their deaths.

476
00:25:55.019 --> 00:26:00.960
But I mean, literally the funniest moment is when Penelope Wilson

477
00:26:00.960 --> 00:26:06.599
looks off screen during that to camera address and asks about the

478
00:26:06.599 --> 00:26:09.900
royal family and then just turns back to camera.

479
00:26:09.900 --> 00:26:11.099
They're on the roof.

480
00:26:11.160 --> 00:26:15.839
It's so good Like, it's really probably funny and the threat is so

481
00:26:15.839 --> 00:26:16.500
obvious.

482
00:26:16.559 --> 00:26:19.680
I mean, if you compare the threat to whatever the hell is

483
00:26:19.680 --> 00:26:25.019
happening in, let's say Arc of Infinity. like it's absolutely

484
00:26:25.019 --> 00:26:30.299
clear what's at stake here, it's visual, it's visible.

485
00:26:30.359 --> 00:26:33.779
We see we see people standing on roofs all over the world.

486
00:26:33.839 --> 00:26:38.099
You know, there's money spent on those big crowd scenes.

487
00:26:38.160 --> 00:26:40.859
You know, having just one off characters who are talking, that

488
00:26:40.859 --> 00:26:44.220
woman who is walking along the street, not the one chasing Jason

489
00:26:44.220 --> 00:26:47.039
in the power state, but the one who's walking along the street

490
00:26:47.039 --> 00:26:49.140
with her husband and the 2 kids.

491
00:26:49.200 --> 00:26:51.599
Like all of that stuff is there.

492
00:26:51.660 --> 00:26:55.079
The policeman, the people walking up the staircase.

493
00:26:55.140 --> 00:26:56.160
It's huge.

494
00:26:56.220 --> 00:27:00.599
Like it's a massive, massive giant event.

495
00:27:00.660 --> 00:27:03.480
And we look at it now and, you know, like maybe it looks a bit

496
00:27:03.480 --> 00:27:06.059
dodgy, but it's massively ambitious.

497
00:27:06.119 --> 00:27:07.559
It's film like.

498
00:27:07.619 --> 00:27:13.380
It's like a big blockbuster on a BBC budget and it's, I mean, it's

499
00:27:13.380 --> 00:27:16.920
just so clear to everyone at home what's going on, I think.

500
00:27:16.980 --> 00:27:20.160
I mean, I still think I would have preferred to have seen Harriet

501
00:27:20.160 --> 00:27:22.559
Jones wobbling against a CSO Matrix background.

502
00:27:24.779 --> 00:27:27.059
But it's relatable as well.

503
00:27:27.119 --> 00:27:30.960
It's the bus stop scene in Spearhead from Space, just bit large

504
00:27:30.960 --> 00:27:34.200
you know, you've got the, as I say, like a 3rd of the world's

505
00:27:34.200 --> 00:27:37.619
population are about to jump to their depths and it automatically

506
00:27:37.619 --> 00:27:40.259
maybe with this particular viewer, you start to think, well, if

507
00:27:40.259 --> 00:27:43.079
I'm in that world, am I one of the, you know, 2000000000 people

508
00:27:43.079 --> 00:27:46.440
standing on a rooftop or, you know, who amongst my family are, it's

509
00:27:46.440 --> 00:27:47.400
it's human.

510
00:27:47.460 --> 00:27:50.339
It's not, you know, the space reasons and bliz-bloss. actually

511
00:27:50.339 --> 00:27:56.220
genuinely about people, the threat to humanity is relatable, I

512
00:27:56.220 --> 00:27:59.700
guess, rather than just some sort of abstract, as you say, arc of

513
00:27:59.700 --> 00:28:00.660
the infinity kind of reason.

514
00:28:00.779 --> 00:28:01.799
That's right.

515
00:28:01.859 --> 00:28:04.319
And those scenes are not about people marching to the rooftop.

516
00:28:04.380 --> 00:28:06.660
They're about the family members begging with them and trying to

517
00:28:06.660 --> 00:28:08.039
stop them and crying over them.

518
00:28:08.099 --> 00:28:08.579
Yeah.

519
00:28:09.299 --> 00:28:12.180
I do have to say, and this is not something sort of deep and

520
00:28:12.180 --> 00:28:13.380
meaningful about those scenes.

521
00:28:13.440 --> 00:28:17.640
But there is the woman trying to get Jason to come away from the

522
00:28:17.640 --> 00:28:17.940
edge.

523
00:28:18.000 --> 00:28:20.759
And in order to do that, she steps in front of him.

524
00:28:20.759 --> 00:28:22.380
Yeah, good for her.

525
00:28:22.440 --> 00:28:25.140
But while he's on the edge.

526
00:28:25.559 --> 00:28:27.059
Oh, yeah.

527
00:28:27.059 --> 00:28:30.180
It's a Kings of Mariners moment of, oh, there's force field here.

528
00:28:30.240 --> 00:28:33.059
Oh, I'll just step in front of you into the force field.

529
00:28:33.119 --> 00:28:35.579
I'm all for keys to mariners, movies.

530
00:28:36.720 --> 00:28:40.500
Like, it's just a thing of, like, he steps in front of him

531
00:28:40.500 --> 00:28:41.819
presumably even closer to the edge.

532
00:28:41.880 --> 00:28:44.460
He stops moving and she says just stop.

533
00:28:45.779 --> 00:28:48.900
He has done, let's bring back the Jenny Led.

534
00:28:48.960 --> 00:28:49.380
No, no.

535
00:28:49.440 --> 00:28:51.119
I'm being mean to the actress now.

536
00:28:51.180 --> 00:28:54.180
But it was just a moment that even struck me at the time, like the

537
00:28:54.180 --> 00:28:55.920
1st time I watched it, I just went, he just did.

538
00:28:55.980 --> 00:28:57.240
God, calm down.

539
00:28:57.299 --> 00:28:59.880
I think we'd just gotten broadband.

540
00:28:59.940 --> 00:29:01.740
So this was the 1st episode.

541
00:29:01.799 --> 00:29:04.619
I acquired in advance for myself.

542
00:29:04.680 --> 00:29:07.259
Yes, say.

543
00:29:07.319 --> 00:29:10.980
One of the other things too that I had kind of forgotten is how

544
00:29:10.980 --> 00:29:12.299
cool England is.

545
00:29:12.359 --> 00:29:15.779
And, you know, here at the end of sort of 13 years of pretty

546
00:29:15.779 --> 00:29:19.559
disastrous Tory government, it's hard to even imagine such a thing

547
00:29:19.559 --> 00:29:19.980
now.

548
00:29:20.039 --> 00:29:21.900
But it was so cool.

549
00:29:21.960 --> 00:29:29.400
And so just like Vicky's ship in the rescue, the Guinevere one has

550
00:29:29.400 --> 00:29:34.680
a big union flag on it. and Harriet Jones is talking about British

551
00:29:34.680 --> 00:29:40.319
workmanship up among the stars and just the fact that London is

552
00:29:40.319 --> 00:29:45.839
central, that unit headquarters is under the Tower of London is so

553
00:29:45.839 --> 00:29:50.279
brilliant and so superb and remains that way during the Moffat era

554
00:29:50.279 --> 00:29:50.700
as well.

555
00:29:50.759 --> 00:29:52.559
He absolutely leans into that.

556
00:29:52.619 --> 00:29:56.759
All of that centrality of London and all of the kind of greatness

557
00:29:56.759 --> 00:29:58.859
of Britain, it's Britain's golden age.

558
00:29:58.920 --> 00:30:02.279
Poor people are getting more money in this golden age, which again

559
00:30:02.279 --> 00:30:07.319
doesn't seem to be, you know, an ambition. 18 for a week at all.

560
00:30:07.380 --> 00:30:10.500
It doesn't seem to be an ambition of, you know, any major

561
00:30:10.500 --> 00:30:14.700
political parties at the moment anywhere in the English speaking

562
00:30:14.700 --> 00:30:15.240
world.

563
00:30:15.299 --> 00:30:18.960
But all of that stuff was so huge and sort of so amazing.

564
00:30:19.019 --> 00:30:22.019
And one of the things that I loved about the show, I think.

565
00:30:22.259 --> 00:30:25.799
Everything that was popular culture at the time was leaning into

566
00:30:25.799 --> 00:30:28.140
that cool Britannia kind of idea.

567
00:30:28.200 --> 00:30:31.920
So all of the Brit pop from the 2nd half of the 90s and into the

568
00:30:31.920 --> 00:30:35.579
naughties, you know, the Spice Girls with Jerry Halliwell with her

569
00:30:35.579 --> 00:30:40.380
Union Jack Top, Rose with her, Union Jack Top, hanging off the

570
00:30:40.380 --> 00:30:42.059
blimp in Empty Child.

571
00:30:42.119 --> 00:30:46.140
All of that is calculated because the way that you sell Doctor Who

572
00:30:46.140 --> 00:30:49.200
and Britain to the world is through that cool Britannia lens

573
00:30:49.259 --> 00:30:50.460
absolutely.

574
00:30:50.579 --> 00:30:54.000
And, you know, I've said in previous occasions.

575
00:30:54.059 --> 00:30:59.640
I think Rose is the 1st British female character who's a leader

576
00:30:59.640 --> 00:31:05.519
protagonist in a show like this, since perhaps Diana Rigg as an

577
00:31:05.519 --> 00:31:06.779
appeal in the Avengers.

578
00:31:06.839 --> 00:31:09.900
Like, we have to go that far back to get that kind of proactive

579
00:31:09.900 --> 00:31:11.700
female lead, I think, in this kind of show.

580
00:31:11.940 --> 00:31:16.259
And that, you know, Rose, and, you know, Billy Piper's performance

581
00:31:16.259 --> 00:31:17.940
is absolutely central too that.

582
00:31:18.000 --> 00:31:21.660
And again, it plays out, as you say, Peter, against that backdrop

583
00:31:21.660 --> 00:31:24.420
of cool Britannia, it sort of starts in that mid 90s, but it sort

584
00:31:24.420 --> 00:31:25.500
of reinvents itself.

585
00:31:25.559 --> 00:31:28.680
And, you know, this is the era of Amy Winehouse and the libertines

586
00:31:28.680 --> 00:31:31.380
you know, and Camden is like the coolest place on earth.

587
00:31:31.440 --> 00:31:34.140
London is at the centre of everything.

588
00:31:34.319 --> 00:31:37.019
It's very tied up with new labour.

589
00:31:37.079 --> 00:31:42.180
And so I think that golden period from 1997, probably through to

590
00:31:42.180 --> 00:31:45.299
when Tony Blair quits the premiership in 2007.

591
00:31:45.480 --> 00:31:47.579
That is the golden age that they're referencing.

592
00:31:47.640 --> 00:31:51.900
That is when people were thinking of Britain as being youthful and

593
00:31:51.900 --> 00:31:52.859
forward looking.

594
00:31:52.920 --> 00:31:55.200
And, you know, you have remnants of that going all through the

595
00:31:55.200 --> 00:31:57.299
Moffat era basically up until Brexit.

596
00:31:57.359 --> 00:31:58.920
But this was the real golden age.

597
00:31:59.039 --> 00:32:03.240
I think there's something to be said about that. 2003 and, you

598
00:32:03.240 --> 00:32:06.960
know, the weapons of mass destruction sort of pretence for the

599
00:32:06.960 --> 00:32:09.839
invasion of Iraq perhaps sort of signals a bit of a turning

600
00:32:09.839 --> 00:32:10.079
point.

601
00:32:10.140 --> 00:32:12.960
But you're right, it's sort of, there is that sort of fag end of

602
00:32:12.960 --> 00:32:16.079
that that continues on through until probably 2007.

603
00:32:16.259 --> 00:32:18.000
Yeah, that sounds about right, Peter, yeah.

604
00:32:18.059 --> 00:32:20.880
The show has already kind of done that as well.

605
00:32:20.940 --> 00:32:25.380
It does come back in a London centric kind of way with a sort of

606
00:32:25.380 --> 00:32:29.579
consciousness that Britain is cool, but the very, very 1st

607
00:32:29.579 --> 00:32:35.400
earthbound story after the premiere episode is, of course, aliens

608
00:32:35.400 --> 00:32:38.880
of London and World War 3, which kills Tony Blair and shoves him

609
00:32:38.880 --> 00:32:43.380
in a cupboard and relitigates the weapons of mass destruction

610
00:32:43.380 --> 00:32:43.680
thing.

611
00:32:43.740 --> 00:32:46.140
And that happens again here.

612
00:32:46.200 --> 00:32:51.180
Russell famously kills the Prime Minister of Great Britain once a

613
00:32:51.180 --> 00:32:53.640
season during his 1st run.

614
00:32:53.819 --> 00:32:57.660
So he kills Don Warrington in season two.

615
00:32:57.720 --> 00:33:02.099
He kills like John Simmers, Harold Saxon in series 3.

616
00:33:02.460 --> 00:33:04.559
And who does he kill in series four?

617
00:33:04.619 --> 00:33:05.579
Well, Harriet Jones.

618
00:33:05.579 --> 00:33:06.180
Harriet Jones.

619
00:33:06.240 --> 00:33:08.039
I don't know, Prime Minister.

620
00:33:08.099 --> 00:33:09.180
So he does...

621
00:33:09.180 --> 00:33:11.519
Don't forget, in series 3, he also kills the American president.

622
00:33:11.579 --> 00:33:12.420
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

623
00:33:12.480 --> 00:33:12.960
Yeah.

624
00:33:13.019 --> 00:33:17.279
And here, of course, this ends with that disillusion because I

625
00:33:17.279 --> 00:33:22.799
think another thing that gets cut short and may not have been in

626
00:33:22.799 --> 00:33:28.500
the original plan is that we quickly hurry Harriet Jones into the

627
00:33:28.500 --> 00:33:32.519
Prime Minister position at the end of Aliens of London, World War

628
00:33:32.519 --> 00:33:32.880
III.

629
00:33:32.940 --> 00:33:34.380
We know that that's coming in the future.

630
00:33:34.440 --> 00:33:38.039
The doctor remembers that in the future and it's a new thing and

631
00:33:38.039 --> 00:33:40.079
it will be called Britain's Golden Age.

632
00:33:40.140 --> 00:33:43.559
When we come back just a few months later, Britain's Golden Age is

633
00:33:43.559 --> 00:33:48.000
18 more a week for Jackie Butt, basically, that's about it.

634
00:33:48.059 --> 00:33:53.279
And, of course, uh, when she goes full Thatcher on the departing

635
00:33:53.279 --> 00:33:57.299
uh, Cicarac spaceship and he brings her down.

636
00:33:57.359 --> 00:33:59.940
Like, I don't think that that's intended at all.

637
00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:05.759
And I think maybe that's another thing that is new to this doctor

638
00:34:05.759 --> 00:34:09.599
which is the no 2nd chance as I'm that kind of a man, because

639
00:34:09.599 --> 00:34:10.980
that's what we land on.

640
00:34:11.039 --> 00:34:15.000
There's that whole comic scene, isn't there, where the doctor says

641
00:34:15.000 --> 00:34:16.139
I don't know who I am.

642
00:34:16.199 --> 00:34:20.219
And that goes on and is played for laughs and is absolutely like

643
00:34:20.219 --> 00:34:23.340
just a sort of virtuoso performance by Tenet.

644
00:34:23.400 --> 00:34:26.820
Then what we land in is that very blunt and rather odd.

645
00:34:26.880 --> 00:34:31.800
Uh, like it doesn't even seem to follow uh, the previous scene.

646
00:34:31.860 --> 00:34:32.820
Do you know what I mean?

647
00:34:32.880 --> 00:34:33.960
Like it's lit differently.

648
00:34:34.019 --> 00:34:37.800
It's an odd shot where he says no 2nd chances I'm that sort of a

649
00:34:37.800 --> 00:34:38.039
man.

650
00:34:38.099 --> 00:34:40.860
And that's something that happens going forward as well.

651
00:34:40.920 --> 00:34:44.579
It's new for this episode, but I think it's a bit of a cul-de

652
00:34:43.920 --> 00:34:44.579
sac.

653
00:34:44.639 --> 00:34:48.539
What always happens with new doctors is that they impose rightly

654
00:34:48.539 --> 00:34:51.960
and characterly traits on them, and they tend to fall by the

655
00:34:51.960 --> 00:34:55.440
wayside once the actor finds their feet and starts injecting

656
00:34:55.440 --> 00:34:57.840
themselves into the role, and you can see that very clearly with

657
00:34:57.840 --> 00:34:58.679
David Tennant.

658
00:34:58.739 --> 00:35:01.320
You get a bit of the no 2nd chances here.

659
00:35:01.380 --> 00:35:05.699
You get a little bit of it in school reunion with that speech.

660
00:35:05.760 --> 00:35:07.079
I used to have so much mercy.

661
00:35:07.139 --> 00:35:10.920
And then it pretty well comprehensively falls by the wayside when

662
00:35:10.920 --> 00:35:15.179
tenants natural charisma just kind of takes over and fills the

663
00:35:15.179 --> 00:35:16.440
void and fills out his doctor.

664
00:35:16.500 --> 00:35:19.019
But don't you think it's this doctor's failure mode?

665
00:35:19.079 --> 00:35:23.400
I mean, that's what ends up happening at the end of Waters of Mars

666
00:35:23.460 --> 00:35:27.420
where his kind of arrogance takes over.

667
00:35:27.480 --> 00:35:30.780
And, you know, he compares himself.

668
00:35:30.840 --> 00:35:34.860
He calls himself the lonely god, I think, in new earth in the very

669
00:35:34.860 --> 00:35:35.639
next episode.

670
00:35:35.699 --> 00:35:40.679
And so even though he's mostly genial and stuff.

671
00:35:40.739 --> 00:35:42.780
You do still get hints of it much later.

672
00:35:42.840 --> 00:35:45.599
Even Voyage of the Damned, where there's some reflection on the

673
00:35:45.599 --> 00:35:48.239
fact that he didn't get to pick who lived and who died.

674
00:35:48.300 --> 00:35:52.619
You know, that's always there, I think, and I don't know that

675
00:35:52.619 --> 00:35:55.800
there's anything like that in Chris, and maybe that would have

676
00:35:55.800 --> 00:35:56.219
developed.

677
00:35:56.280 --> 00:35:56.760
Who knows?

678
00:35:56.820 --> 00:36:00.000
I mean, I think that's played as a character flaw going forward.

679
00:36:00.059 --> 00:36:03.719
So that bit in midnight where he basically starts to lose the

680
00:36:03.719 --> 00:36:06.900
trust of the people around him, when he starts shouting at them

681
00:36:06.900 --> 00:36:08.760
and saying that they should believe him because he's clever.

682
00:36:08.820 --> 00:36:12.840
Like that is the clearest possible way to lose a crowd of people

683
00:36:12.840 --> 00:36:14.820
is to tell them that you're smarter than they are.

684
00:36:15.119 --> 00:36:17.579
Believe me, I do it all the time.

685
00:36:19.500 --> 00:36:26.340
I think also it's possibly meant to juxtapose coward any day from

686
00:36:26.340 --> 00:36:28.860
parting of the ways.

687
00:36:28.920 --> 00:36:33.179
And the funny thing is, like, we flip-flop on this because we've

688
00:36:33.179 --> 00:36:34.860
got coward any day in parting of the ways.

689
00:36:34.920 --> 00:36:36.840
Then we've got him to posing Harriet Jones.

690
00:36:36.960 --> 00:36:38.460
Then we've got him forgiving Cassandra.

691
00:36:38.519 --> 00:36:39.179
Yeah.

692
00:36:39.179 --> 00:36:42.719
You know, and I remember at the time, at the end of New Earth

693
00:36:42.719 --> 00:36:47.820
there was a big response to that going, well, hold on. 3 months

694
00:36:47.820 --> 00:36:51.300
ago, he deposed Harriet Jones, who did a horrible thing, but

695
00:36:51.300 --> 00:36:54.360
according to what we know of the Doctor Universe is meant to be

696
00:36:54.360 --> 00:36:57.119
this wonderful figure for the next 10 years.

697
00:36:57.179 --> 00:36:59.579
Of course, behind the scenes, Russell has just had the

698
00:36:59.579 --> 00:37:02.519
irresistible idea of making the prime minister the master.

699
00:37:02.579 --> 00:37:05.519
And so he's like right, I've got to get rid of Harriet Jones now.

700
00:37:05.579 --> 00:37:10.320
But yeah, I wonder if also, with no 2nd chances, I'm that sort of

701
00:37:10.320 --> 00:37:15.659
man, that is a thing to set up against the Christopher Eccleston

702
00:37:15.659 --> 00:37:21.059
doctor who, one of the criticisms of that characterisation, was

703
00:37:21.059 --> 00:37:24.960
that often other characters would solve the problem inspired by

704
00:37:24.960 --> 00:37:29.340
him, but he wouldn't press the plunger himself, he wouldn't push

705
00:37:29.340 --> 00:37:30.360
the button himself.

706
00:37:30.420 --> 00:37:34.380
This is a doctor who will do that and will absolutely as someone

707
00:37:34.380 --> 00:37:37.139
is trying to attack him from behind, you know, knock him off a

708
00:37:37.139 --> 00:37:38.219
high building kind of thing.

709
00:37:38.340 --> 00:37:40.380
And yeah, that's the funny thing.

710
00:37:40.440 --> 00:37:42.599
Like, David Tennant does it with a Satsuma.

711
00:37:42.659 --> 00:37:46.260
Everyone goes, oh, yeah, Peter Capaldi does it with a robot on top

712
00:37:46.260 --> 00:37:49.500
of a building and it's like, okay, no, we can't show that.

713
00:37:49.559 --> 00:37:53.340
And it has to become a debate point for a season.

714
00:37:53.400 --> 00:37:54.599
What?

715
00:37:54.599 --> 00:37:57.179
Because he did it in a comedy way with us at Suma.

716
00:37:57.239 --> 00:37:57.599
We fine.

717
00:37:58.559 --> 00:38:02.159
That Doctor Who can't press the button, that would have been had

718
00:38:02.159 --> 00:38:05.039
an amazing resonance if Eccleston had actually come back for Day

719
00:38:05.039 --> 00:38:06.000
of the Dog.

720
00:38:06.000 --> 00:38:06.960
Yeah, being put in that position.

721
00:38:07.019 --> 00:38:07.679
Yeah.

722
00:38:07.739 --> 00:38:08.760
Yeah, absolutely.

723
00:38:08.820 --> 00:38:09.300
Absolutely.

724
00:38:09.420 --> 00:38:11.280
And, you know, we were close to that happening.

725
00:38:11.340 --> 00:38:14.820
He had several meetings with Stephen Moffatt, and while I would

726
00:38:14.820 --> 00:38:15.360
have loved it.

727
00:38:15.420 --> 00:38:18.719
You know, I respect his decision not to, even though I'm

728
00:38:18.719 --> 00:38:19.139
disappointed.

729
00:38:19.199 --> 00:38:22.260
He prefers to be written by Nick Briggs than Steve.

730
00:38:32.400 --> 00:38:36.480
Do you mind if I bring up a point that I think a lot of people see

731
00:38:36.480 --> 00:38:40.199
as new to the tenant doctor, and it's something that is almost

732
00:38:40.199 --> 00:38:44.039
labelled, you know, a criticism of the era and of the character.

733
00:38:44.099 --> 00:38:47.880
But I actually think he's probably a reversion to type and he's

734
00:38:47.880 --> 00:38:50.039
something old rather than something new and that is something that

735
00:38:50.039 --> 00:38:52.980
you mentioned, Nathan, not too long ago, about the lonely god.

736
00:38:53.039 --> 00:38:57.719
And I don't think that this is entirely new.

737
00:38:57.780 --> 00:39:02.099
Um, I think what we have with the tenant doctor is, you know, that

738
00:39:02.099 --> 00:39:06.900
sort of emo doctor who's, you know, hair trembles with emotion, um

739
00:39:06.900 --> 00:39:11.039
and is saddled with this, um, particularly post-rose leaving at

740
00:39:11.039 --> 00:39:14.820
the end of this series with this sort of, um, you know, incessant

741
00:39:14.820 --> 00:39:18.719
and inherent sadness about him because of that loss and that loss

742
00:39:18.719 --> 00:39:22.500
sort of symbolising this this reality that this is a figure who

743
00:39:22.500 --> 00:39:24.000
will never be able to find his home.

744
00:39:24.059 --> 00:39:28.139
And if I go on a bit of a tangent here around Aristotle, he talks

745
00:39:28.139 --> 00:39:31.920
about the most deplorable of fates for a man is effectively that

746
00:39:31.920 --> 00:39:37.139
of Odysseus, someone who is unable to find that half at home and

747
00:39:37.139 --> 00:39:38.639
that people that he belongs with.

748
00:39:38.760 --> 00:39:42.840
And of course, you know, it's something that maybe we revisit with

749
00:39:42.840 --> 00:39:44.880
the giggle, where he does get that.

750
00:39:44.940 --> 00:39:49.860
But this doctor sort of is adopted that is set up as a character

751
00:39:49.860 --> 00:39:51.179
who can't have that.

752
00:39:51.239 --> 00:39:52.920
And so he's always perpetually alone.

753
00:39:52.920 --> 00:39:56.400
And there comes in the lonely god, the traveller without a home.

754
00:39:56.460 --> 00:39:59.760
But I think that actually isn't new.

755
00:39:59.820 --> 00:40:03.599
That isn't actually something that is a construct of new who and

756
00:40:03.599 --> 00:40:05.159
particularly David Tennant's doctor.

757
00:40:05.219 --> 00:40:07.800
I think it's there with, you know, the broken old man at the end

758
00:40:07.800 --> 00:40:11.159
of the massacre who can never go home again or, you know, the

759
00:40:11.159 --> 00:40:14.880
space vagrant who leaves before anyone can, you know, ask him too

760
00:40:14.880 --> 00:40:17.940
many questions at the end of each adventure or even the exile who

761
00:40:17.940 --> 00:40:21.840
can't stay to see his best friend married and walks off into the

762
00:40:21.840 --> 00:40:22.920
sunset, literally.

763
00:40:22.920 --> 00:40:26.400
And even also, I guess, with, you know, the sole survivor of the

764
00:40:26.400 --> 00:40:27.480
last great time war.

765
00:40:27.539 --> 00:40:31.739
These are inherently lonely figures and that, or those portrayals

766
00:40:31.739 --> 00:40:33.539
of the doctor is inherently lowered me figures.

767
00:40:33.599 --> 00:40:36.480
And I think what we have with the lonely God, particularly in

768
00:40:36.480 --> 00:40:40.619
tenants era, is probably just a recycling or a revisitation of

769
00:40:40.619 --> 00:40:44.639
that construct of the doctor, the archetype of the stranger rather

770
00:40:44.639 --> 00:40:48.179
than, oh, this is something new and the doctor being emo about

771
00:40:48.179 --> 00:40:48.659
being alone.

772
00:40:48.719 --> 00:40:49.980
I think that's unfair.

773
00:40:50.039 --> 00:40:53.940
I think, though, it is the result of just this being TV for the

774
00:40:53.940 --> 00:40:54.780
21st century.

775
00:40:54.840 --> 00:41:00.059
Because I do remember that moment in the end of the world where

776
00:41:00.059 --> 00:41:06.239
Jabe puts her hand on the doctors and the doctor starts weeping.

777
00:41:06.300 --> 00:41:11.340
And I, you know, I think that perhaps the only time that we got

778
00:41:11.340 --> 00:41:16.619
anywhere near that is Pertwe at the end of the Green Death, and

779
00:41:16.619 --> 00:41:21.840
that's so rare, and that now becomes the show's kind of default

780
00:41:21.840 --> 00:41:26.579
mode, that we do know how the doctor feels about things, and we

781
00:41:26.579 --> 00:41:30.659
have some idea of why. and that becomes a focus of the show.

782
00:41:30.719 --> 00:41:35.880
It's a little bit like what this story is doing as well, which is

783
00:41:35.880 --> 00:41:38.820
reintroducing the doctor as a superhero.

784
00:41:38.880 --> 00:41:44.219
And the doctor isn't a superhero when the show starts at all.

785
00:41:44.280 --> 00:41:50.039
And even in the classic series, the doctor, even though he has a

786
00:41:50.039 --> 00:41:53.400
habit of overthrowing an oppressive government once a month.

787
00:41:53.820 --> 00:41:56.099
We never reflect on that.

788
00:41:56.159 --> 00:41:57.119
Do you know what I mean?

789
00:41:57.239 --> 00:41:59.940
We never sit back and think, well, what does that make him?

790
00:42:00.000 --> 00:42:06.239
And both Russell and even more Moffatt take that on board as part

791
00:42:06.239 --> 00:42:10.139
of the character's kind of reputation and as part of his kind of

792
00:42:10.139 --> 00:42:11.820
his self-perception?

793
00:42:12.000 --> 00:42:16.320
Previously, I think he was an anarchist, and that kind of doesn't

794
00:42:16.320 --> 00:42:18.300
work in 21st century television.

795
00:42:18.360 --> 00:42:20.639
You need someone who's sort of got the chops to bring about this

796
00:42:20.639 --> 00:42:21.420
kind of change.

797
00:42:21.480 --> 00:42:23.880
Like you can't just walk into a society and bring it down

798
00:42:23.880 --> 00:42:26.880
overnight because it might just look to the audience a bit twee.

799
00:42:26.940 --> 00:42:29.820
Oh, yeah, that's definitely possible.

800
00:42:29.880 --> 00:42:31.380
I think there's something in that.

801
00:42:31.440 --> 00:42:34.739
My mind was going in terms of just, this is kind of what you said

802
00:42:34.739 --> 00:42:35.579
before, Nathan.

803
00:42:35.639 --> 00:42:38.639
This is the syntax and grammar of 21st century television.

804
00:42:38.639 --> 00:42:41.400
And the interiority of a character like the doctor, which was

805
00:42:41.400 --> 00:42:44.280
forbidden up until even you think about like the Virgin you

806
00:42:44.280 --> 00:42:46.800
adventure style guide where you weren't allowed to go into the

807
00:42:46.800 --> 00:42:47.460
doctor's head.

808
00:42:47.519 --> 00:42:49.139
That's not tenable anymore.

809
00:42:49.199 --> 00:42:52.079
You can't have a character like that on 21st century television.

810
00:42:52.139 --> 00:42:55.860
So we do get the doctor remoting, which goes back again to this

811
00:42:55.860 --> 00:42:57.480
idea of the emo lonely god.

812
00:42:57.539 --> 00:42:59.099
I just think it's always been there.

813
00:42:59.159 --> 00:43:02.579
It's now text rather than just, you know, per subtext.

814
00:43:02.639 --> 00:43:03.360
Yeah.

815
00:43:03.420 --> 00:43:09.000
I think also another place it comes from is Russell looking at the

816
00:43:09.000 --> 00:43:14.820
origins of the series and looking at the rejected or rather never

817
00:43:14.820 --> 00:43:19.320
explicitly referred to idea that the 1st doctor is fleeing a

818
00:43:19.320 --> 00:43:20.159
galactic war.

819
00:43:20.639 --> 00:43:25.559
And I think David Whittaker, sort of reading more and more about

820
00:43:25.559 --> 00:43:27.900
him really wanted to embed that.

821
00:43:27.960 --> 00:43:31.260
Like it was in the script of power of the Daleks, for instance.

822
00:43:31.320 --> 00:43:34.079
However, the producers kind of went, no, no, we want to keep

823
00:43:34.079 --> 00:43:35.219
things vague and nebulous.

824
00:43:35.280 --> 00:43:37.800
And I think that's possibly because science fiction at the time

825
00:43:37.800 --> 00:43:41.460
whenever it showed a sort of space war, it was always really twee

826
00:43:41.460 --> 00:43:45.480
and lasers and there's a woman on the ship and that's bad luck.

827
00:43:45.539 --> 00:43:46.800
Captain Pike.

828
00:43:46.860 --> 00:43:54.900
But you get to 21st century television, wars have been televised

829
00:43:54.900 --> 00:43:56.280
since the 1970s.

830
00:43:56.460 --> 00:44:02.400
People who have not been in the armed forces have their own ideas

831
00:44:02.400 --> 00:44:06.000
and opinions and thoughts on war, and Russell very clearly has his

832
00:44:06.000 --> 00:44:10.199
thoughts on the most recent war, which is part of this and part of

833
00:44:10.199 --> 00:44:12.000
the tone for series one.

834
00:44:12.119 --> 00:44:17.639
So saying that the doctor was in a time war with sort of strange

835
00:44:17.639 --> 00:44:22.679
and esoteric descriptions, the audience gets that shorthand in a

836
00:44:22.679 --> 00:44:28.980
way that if it were said in 1963 might have seemed twee and easy

837
00:44:28.980 --> 00:44:29.579
to brush off.

838
00:44:30.420 --> 00:44:31.860
Yeah.

839
00:44:31.920 --> 00:44:35.880
And maybe too soon after the Second World War, maybe.

840
00:44:36.119 --> 00:44:40.260
I can just imagine Innis Lloyd saying to David Whitaker.

841
00:44:40.320 --> 00:44:43.380
Enough of this lonely god fleeing a time war.

842
00:44:43.440 --> 00:44:45.360
Let's have fluid links and static electricity.

843
00:44:45.420 --> 00:44:46.619
That's what the audience wants.

844
00:44:46.679 --> 00:44:50.280
And there is truth in that. absolutely.

845
00:44:50.340 --> 00:44:54.539
It's interesting to me how the series undercuts that lonely god

846
00:44:54.539 --> 00:44:54.960
thing.

847
00:44:55.019 --> 00:44:59.579
So all throughout Tenants era, and then by series 4, really, the

848
00:44:59.579 --> 00:45:03.480
running arc through the series is that the doctor needs his family

849
00:45:03.480 --> 00:45:04.019
around him.

850
00:45:04.079 --> 00:45:08.159
You know, he empowers other people and his his associates and his

851
00:45:08.159 --> 00:45:12.719
companions and sort of his extended family are the people who he's

852
00:45:12.719 --> 00:45:15.000
inspired and who eventually can save him.

853
00:45:15.059 --> 00:45:16.320
So actually, he's not a lonely god.

854
00:45:16.380 --> 00:45:18.900
It's the people around him who's inspired.

855
00:45:18.960 --> 00:45:23.099
But there is a distance between them because, you know, after

856
00:45:23.099 --> 00:45:27.239
journey's end where that's established, the very next time we see

857
00:45:27.239 --> 00:45:29.519
them all, he's saying goodbye to them.

858
00:45:29.579 --> 00:45:34.800
And so having the solution to that doctor's problem, which Russell

859
00:45:34.800 --> 00:45:38.579
never gets to solve because Tennant and he both leave, having that

860
00:45:38.579 --> 00:45:43.860
solution delayed to the giggle, where it is solved properly, and

861
00:45:43.860 --> 00:45:48.480
he does get to stay with a group of people who he loves and are a

862
00:45:48.480 --> 00:45:49.500
family.

863
00:45:49.559 --> 00:45:53.280
I think, you know, that's perfect.

864
00:45:53.340 --> 00:45:57.780
And like you said, many times, Nathan Moffat, as a showrunner, is

865
00:45:57.780 --> 00:46:01.199
not interested in giving the doctor a regular group of compatriots

866
00:46:01.199 --> 00:46:01.559
about him.

867
00:46:01.619 --> 00:46:03.599
He's more interested in the doctor and his companions.

868
00:46:03.659 --> 00:46:07.980
And so I think the fact that you've got to wait from Journeys end

869
00:46:07.980 --> 00:46:11.519
and the end of time, and then basically leapfrog, the entire

870
00:46:11.519 --> 00:46:16.019
Moffat and Chipmull eras, to get back to that point with Russell T

871
00:46:16.019 --> 00:46:17.340
Davies is pretty fun.

872
00:46:31.860 --> 00:46:36.239
What do we think that Russell has learned from previous soft

873
00:46:36.239 --> 00:46:38.639
reboots of the show here?

874
00:46:39.360 --> 00:46:43.260
Stick the doctor in a 0 cabinet for half the episode.

875
00:46:44.820 --> 00:46:49.920
We actually did say something about this in our Spearhead from

876
00:46:49.920 --> 00:46:55.139
Space episode because there is something about making us wait for

877
00:46:55.139 --> 00:46:59.280
the doctor, which make sense in all sorts of ways.

878
00:46:59.340 --> 00:47:07.559
But when your 1st story is 425 minute episode spaced over 4 weeks

879
00:47:07.559 --> 00:47:13.260
having to wait for the doctor's hero moments for several weeks

880
00:47:13.260 --> 00:47:17.579
when you might be tuning in just to see what the new doctor is

881
00:47:17.579 --> 00:47:21.179
like, all you get in Spearhead from Space episode one is that

882
00:47:21.179 --> 00:47:25.800
conversation with the brigadier who doesn't recognise him and some

883
00:47:25.800 --> 00:47:27.000
burbling about his shoes.

884
00:47:27.179 --> 00:47:29.579
Yes, unhand me, man.

885
00:47:31.199 --> 00:47:37.619
Here we actually get to do what both Castra Volver and Spearhead

886
00:47:37.619 --> 00:47:41.880
from Space want to do, which is kind of delay the reveal of the

887
00:47:41.880 --> 00:47:42.960
real new doctor.

888
00:47:42.960 --> 00:47:46.260
And, you know, Russell is right.

889
00:47:46.320 --> 00:47:50.159
You can't do it two-thirds of the way through.

890
00:47:50.219 --> 00:47:52.920
You have to do it at the very, very end.

891
00:47:52.980 --> 00:47:55.199
And then I think Julie or Jane.

892
00:47:55.260 --> 00:47:56.400
I don't know who's responsible.

893
00:47:56.460 --> 00:47:57.300
Lorraine Hegasy.

894
00:47:57.360 --> 00:47:58.679
Lorraine Hegasy, right?

895
00:47:58.800 --> 00:47:59.280
Okay.

896
00:47:59.340 --> 00:48:03.900
She's also right to say, actually, you can't make us wait that

897
00:48:03.900 --> 00:48:04.320
long either.

898
00:48:04.380 --> 00:48:10.739
I think it's very interesting that for the examples of Spearhead

899
00:48:10.739 --> 00:48:14.760
and Castra Volver, part of the function of that is getting to know

900
00:48:14.760 --> 00:48:15.960
2 new characters.

901
00:48:16.139 --> 00:48:21.659
Because even though they've been introduced in previous stories, Mr

902
00:48:21.659 --> 00:48:23.219
and Tegan haven't interacted that much.

903
00:48:23.280 --> 00:48:26.639
So it establishes their relationship because Matthew Waterhouse as

904
00:48:26.639 --> 00:48:28.860
Adric is sidelined as well for that.

905
00:48:28.980 --> 00:48:32.280
So it establishes their relationship, it establishes Liz and the

906
00:48:32.280 --> 00:48:34.679
Brigadier's relationship in Spearhead.

907
00:48:34.739 --> 00:48:38.579
But here, we're establishing relationships that are already

908
00:48:38.579 --> 00:48:42.300
established, except we've never been able to spend as much time

909
00:48:42.300 --> 00:48:47.159
with them because Rose has always wanted to get going again, and

910
00:48:47.159 --> 00:48:48.239
now she can't.

911
00:48:48.300 --> 00:48:52.980
And she's having to turn to 2 people she's rejected in the past

912
00:48:52.980 --> 00:48:54.000
for support.

913
00:48:54.059 --> 00:48:59.159
Like there's a bit where She's turning to Mickey for support and

914
00:48:59.159 --> 00:49:01.500
Mickey says you really love him, don't you?

915
00:49:01.559 --> 00:49:06.659
And in my mind, Rose's natural reaction to that should be, okay

916
00:49:06.659 --> 00:49:09.179
this is uncomfortable and making Mickey uncomfortable.

917
00:49:09.239 --> 00:49:11.639
Instead, she cuddles him, you know.

918
00:49:11.699 --> 00:49:15.780
And then she breaks down to Jackie and says he's left me, he's

919
00:49:15.780 --> 00:49:16.380
left me.

920
00:49:16.380 --> 00:49:20.699
And both Jackie and Mickey step up to support Rose in this moment

921
00:49:20.820 --> 00:49:24.840
visibly not having any of her nonsense though.

922
00:49:24.900 --> 00:49:25.739
Do you know what I mean?

923
00:49:25.800 --> 00:49:31.199
Like, they're kind of both visibly annoyed at her and particularly

924
00:49:31.199 --> 00:49:35.099
Jackie, but he's left me thing, where the real issue would seem to

925
00:49:35.099 --> 00:49:37.980
be that the doctor's not there to prevent them all being killed by

926
00:49:37.980 --> 00:49:39.900
the big giant spaceship.

927
00:49:39.960 --> 00:49:43.139
Yeah, you know. which I think is a great choice.

928
00:49:43.199 --> 00:49:46.619
And, like, there's that way of characterising Rose.

929
00:49:46.679 --> 00:49:50.039
Like Rose is an interesting enough character to maintain this

930
00:49:50.039 --> 00:49:56.760
episode, but she's not necessarily a nice person and I really like

931
00:49:56.760 --> 00:49:57.000
that.

932
00:49:57.059 --> 00:50:01.380
I like the fact that Rose is always the centre of Rose's universe

933
00:50:01.380 --> 00:50:04.679
and this might be... the purest iteration of it.

934
00:50:05.099 --> 00:50:09.480
And then when they retreat to the TARDIS and Jackie's arguing with

935
00:50:09.480 --> 00:50:11.519
it, Rose admits it's like, I've got nothing else.

936
00:50:11.579 --> 00:50:13.320
Like, this isn't a plan.

937
00:50:13.380 --> 00:50:14.820
This is just retreating.

938
00:50:14.880 --> 00:50:17.519
And it's actually then Jackie and Mickey who are suggesting

939
00:50:17.519 --> 00:50:18.300
things.

940
00:50:18.360 --> 00:50:20.940
Like, Jackie's like, okay, I'm going to get us a cup of tea and

941
00:50:20.940 --> 00:50:21.239
rose.

942
00:50:21.300 --> 00:50:22.679
Oh, yeah, that'll solve everything.

943
00:50:22.739 --> 00:50:23.460
And it actually does.

944
00:50:23.519 --> 00:50:25.739
She's such a sucky bitch.

945
00:50:25.800 --> 00:50:27.900
It's wonderful, isn't it?

946
00:50:27.960 --> 00:50:28.559
Awesome.

947
00:50:28.619 --> 00:50:31.500
And even Mickey is the one who suggests using the scanner to find

948
00:50:31.500 --> 00:50:33.780
out what's going on and Rose is like, yeah, whatever you want.

949
00:50:33.840 --> 00:50:36.360
It's funny when what you were saying about that because this is

950
00:50:36.360 --> 00:50:37.800
the robot mould, isn't it?

951
00:50:37.860 --> 00:50:41.039
This is coming back to the characters we know and establishing

952
00:50:41.039 --> 00:50:45.420
relationships between them concerning the new doctor, whereas they

953
00:50:45.420 --> 00:50:46.920
have pre-established relationships.

954
00:50:46.980 --> 00:50:48.360
And it's the same in robot.

955
00:50:48.420 --> 00:50:53.099
I think in robot, we get our 1st real scenes between the Brigadier

956
00:50:53.099 --> 00:50:54.059
and Sarah Jane Smith.

957
00:50:54.119 --> 00:50:57.599
They've insected before, but then you'll get those lovely scenes

958
00:50:57.599 --> 00:51:00.539
in robot where they're actually their mutual concern for the

959
00:51:00.539 --> 00:51:01.679
doctor brings them together.

960
00:51:01.739 --> 00:51:04.860
And there's the bit where the brigadier is telling Sarah. who's an

961
00:51:04.860 --> 00:51:05.880
investigative journalist.

962
00:51:05.940 --> 00:51:09.960
Let's not forget about the secret plans for a disintegrated gun.

963
00:51:09.960 --> 00:51:11.820
And she calls him one and says, why are you telling me?

964
00:51:11.880 --> 00:51:13.320
He says, well, there's no one else I can tell.

965
00:51:13.380 --> 00:51:15.659
And so you see sort of, you know, it's like the characters move

966
00:51:15.659 --> 00:51:18.780
around in their puzzle box and establish new relationships because

967
00:51:18.780 --> 00:51:19.860
of the change doctor.

968
00:51:19.920 --> 00:51:24.659
I think that's spot on and absolutely, I agree with all of that.

969
00:51:24.719 --> 00:51:26.280
The other thing I think that it does.

970
00:51:26.340 --> 00:51:31.980
And perhaps that it learns from Castravelve and Spearhead, that's

971
00:51:31.980 --> 00:51:32.699
what not to do.

972
00:51:32.760 --> 00:51:37.440
And that is to give the doctor a 1st little mini hero moment at

973
00:51:37.440 --> 00:51:41.039
the end of the 1st act, just so that we can see, oh, he's actually

974
00:51:41.039 --> 00:51:41.880
the doctor.

975
00:51:41.940 --> 00:51:42.780
It's him.

976
00:51:42.840 --> 00:51:45.480
He's actually really good, and then he goes back into his coma

977
00:51:45.480 --> 00:51:48.840
until basically the 3rd act, which we don't get in Castrovale.

978
00:51:48.960 --> 00:51:50.159
Got to see if Lorraine Legacy.

979
00:51:50.219 --> 00:51:53.940
We don't get in Castro Elber and we don't get until basically part

980
00:51:53.940 --> 00:51:55.860
4 of Spearhead from Space as well.

981
00:51:55.920 --> 00:51:58.860
So I think that's probably something that he's looked and learned

982
00:51:58.860 --> 00:51:59.039
from.

983
00:51:59.099 --> 00:52:02.280
You probably don't get it until the last scene of the twin dilemma

984
00:52:02.280 --> 00:52:03.539
which is courageous at stake.

985
00:52:03.599 --> 00:52:04.559
Yeah.

986
00:52:04.619 --> 00:52:07.619
And what's so strange, I was just going to talk about the twin

987
00:52:07.619 --> 00:52:11.340
dilemma in time of the Rani in relation to this, the twin dilemma

988
00:52:11.340 --> 00:52:14.400
is written with the idea in mind of, okay, Peter Davis almost

989
00:52:14.400 --> 00:52:19.079
unconscious for 3 episodes, let's have Colin awake all the way

990
00:52:19.079 --> 00:52:19.380
through.

991
00:52:19.440 --> 00:52:23.340
But let's make him totally undoctor-like, you know.

992
00:52:23.400 --> 00:52:26.699
And then time in the Rani comes along and Silver's conscious all

993
00:52:26.699 --> 00:52:30.780
the way through, but it's Sylvester McCoy playing Colin Baker and

994
00:52:30.780 --> 00:52:33.480
having been cast sort of 2 weeks ago.

995
00:52:34.260 --> 00:52:39.119
Also, it commits Russell's definition of the Cardinal Doctor Who

996
00:52:39.119 --> 00:52:42.300
sent off, we don't care about what's happening to the Zog monsters

997
00:52:42.300 --> 00:52:43.380
on Planet Zog.

998
00:52:43.440 --> 00:52:44.820
You know?

999
00:52:44.880 --> 00:52:48.840
And I say that as any regular listener will know, as someone who

1000
00:52:48.840 --> 00:52:53.699
adores time in the Rani and if anything happens to it, I will kill

1001
00:52:53.699 --> 00:52:54.960
everyone and then myself.

1002
00:52:55.320 --> 00:52:59.400
I wish Russell had taken more inspiration from time and the

1003
00:52:59.400 --> 00:52:59.760
writing.

1004
00:52:59.820 --> 00:53:02.159
I think we were cheated out of Billy Piper dressing up as the

1005
00:53:02.159 --> 00:53:02.579
run.

1006
00:53:03.539 --> 00:53:06.480
We do have Buddy Langford back.

1007
00:53:06.539 --> 00:53:07.920
So anything could happen.

1008
00:53:08.280 --> 00:53:11.400
I'm gonna get killed by a bubble trap.

1009
00:53:36.480 --> 00:53:39.059
Well, that's all the time we have for this week.

1010
00:53:39.119 --> 00:53:40.860
We'll be back again next week.

1011
00:53:40.980 --> 00:53:45.300
And ten months into the future, to see how a Doctor Who spinoff

1012
00:53:45.300 --> 00:53:49.679
gets started in Torchwood's first episode, Everything changes.

1013
00:53:50.039 --> 00:53:54.059
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts

1014
00:53:54.059 --> 00:53:58.380
and you can keep up with us on our website, 500yearDiary.com, where

1015
00:53:58.380 --> 00:54:01.559
you'll find our social media links, as well as links to all of our

1016
00:54:01.559 --> 00:54:05.760
other podcasts, including our other Doctor Who podcasts, flight

1017
00:54:05.760 --> 00:54:09.000
through entirety, and the 2nd great and bountiful human empire.

1018
00:54:09.179 --> 00:54:13.320
Until next time, may you find someone who loves you the way

1019
00:54:13.320 --> 00:54:15.780
Russell T. Davies hates Tony Blair.

1020
00:54:15.840 --> 00:54:18.300
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

1021
00:54:18.360 --> 00:54:19.380
Good night.

1022
00:54:19.440 --> 00:54:20.460
Good night.

1023
00:54:20.579 --> 00:54:21.780
Be seeing you.

1024
00:54:21.840 --> 00:54:23.460
Don't you think I look tired?

1025
00:54:37.019 --> 00:54:41.460
That was 500 year diary, starring Nathan Bottomley, Stephen B

1026
00:54:41.460 --> 00:54:43.199
Brendan Jones, and Peter Griffiths.

1027
00:54:43.260 --> 00:54:45.659
The theme was composed by Cameron Lamb.

1028
00:54:45.719 --> 00:54:50.280
This episode, Indie Revival, was recorded on the 4th of April 2024

1029
00:54:50.280 --> 00:54:51.719
and released on the 5th of May.

1030
00:54:53.400 --> 00:54:57.300
Well, it's less than a week until the latest season of Doctor Who

1031
00:54:57.300 --> 00:55:01.079
drops, and we'll be there just a few days later with our hot takes

1032
00:55:01.079 --> 00:55:04.679
on the 1st 2 episodes on the 2nd great and bountiful Human

1033
00:55:04.679 --> 00:55:05.159
Empire.

1034
00:55:05.219 --> 00:55:09.239
So make sure you've subscribed on your podcatcher of choice, or

1035
00:55:09.239 --> 00:55:12.420
that you've bookmarked us at greatandbountiful.com.

1036
00:55:21.480 --> 00:55:22.260
What do you think?

1037
00:55:22.320 --> 00:55:23.760
We are an hour in.

1038
00:55:23.820 --> 00:55:28.559
We haven't done the finale, the closing thing because I forgot.

1039
00:55:28.619 --> 00:55:29.940
So we have to do that.

1040
00:55:30.000 --> 00:55:33.719
I think we also haven't talked about why David Tennant's so

1041
00:55:33.719 --> 00:55:34.079
irritating.

1042
00:55:34.139 --> 00:55:37.260
Ah, I think he is.

1043
00:55:37.320 --> 00:55:39.420
Okay, I think.

1044
00:55:39.539 --> 00:55:43.440
Because I actually wanted to say, I just thought it was the lonely

1045
00:55:43.440 --> 00:55:45.059
god thing, you know what I mean?

1046
00:55:45.119 --> 00:55:46.380
I know a way it.

1047
00:55:46.440 --> 00:55:49.260
So like, oh, maybe this can be a tag.

1048
00:55:49.320 --> 00:55:50.400
Yeah, I mean?

1049
00:55:50.519 --> 00:55:50.820
Yeah.

1050
00:55:50.880 --> 00:55:55.260
So, like the thing, the experience of watching it last night was

1051
00:55:55.260 --> 00:55:57.780
and my experience of watching David Tennant in general, including

1052
00:55:57.780 --> 00:56:01.559
in the 60th anniversary specials is he is always so much better

1053
00:56:01.559 --> 00:56:08.159
than I expect him to be because they're, you know, like the ticks

1054
00:56:08.159 --> 00:56:11.760
start to take over during the course of his run, teeth.

1055
00:56:11.820 --> 00:56:16.619
The teeth acting, the sticking the tongue on the roof of his mouth

1056
00:56:16.619 --> 00:56:21.000
you know, like while he's thinking, like just all sorts of ticks

1057
00:56:21.000 --> 00:56:22.679
and things.

1058
00:56:22.679 --> 00:56:25.619
And, you know, sometimes the show addresses that, you know, there's

1059
00:56:25.619 --> 00:56:28.260
like in science and the library, I think I've mentioned this heaps

1060
00:56:28.260 --> 00:56:31.739
of times before, where the mask drops, where River says something

1061
00:56:31.739 --> 00:56:37.500
to the doctor, and like he's just not, like he doesn't, he stops

1062
00:56:37.500 --> 00:56:41.639
all of that nonsense and and we actually see the doctor, and that

1063
00:56:41.639 --> 00:56:45.119
the doctors are performing. you know, in lots of ways.

1064
00:56:45.179 --> 00:56:48.420
I don't know why you find why don't you find him irritating?

1065
00:56:48.480 --> 00:56:50.820
I find him irritating because he's so bloody good.

1066
00:56:53.280 --> 00:56:56.400
But you know, it's sort of a variation of what you said.

1067
00:56:56.460 --> 00:56:58.739
I'll put in a David Tenner episode.

1068
00:56:58.800 --> 00:57:00.059
I'm like, okay, here we go.

1069
00:57:00.119 --> 00:57:02.219
I know there's something that's going to set my teeth on edge and

1070
00:57:02.219 --> 00:57:02.880
then I get to the end.

1071
00:57:02.940 --> 00:57:06.000
I'm like, no, you're actually just magnificent, you bastard.

1072
00:57:06.059 --> 00:57:09.300
Like, speaking of someone who likes Matt Smith better.

1073
00:57:09.360 --> 00:57:10.500
You know what I mean?

1074
00:57:10.559 --> 00:57:14.699
And I think Matt Smith is a better actor, but Tenant's performance

1075
00:57:14.699 --> 00:57:15.780
is always just so great.

1076
00:57:15.840 --> 00:57:16.679
It's so compelling.

1077
00:57:16.739 --> 00:57:19.559
I mean, there's, you know, who else could you possibly have

1078
00:57:19.559 --> 00:57:22.079
brought back for the 60th anniversary?

1079
00:57:22.139 --> 00:57:23.820
There's just no contest.

1080
00:57:23.880 --> 00:57:27.179
You know, even though I think, you know, Capoldi's incredible.

1081
00:57:27.239 --> 00:57:29.219
I think Matt Smith is incredible.

1082
00:57:29.280 --> 00:57:33.360
I think, you know, this is the doctor and the doctor when the show

1083
00:57:33.360 --> 00:57:34.559
was at, it's absolute high.

1084
00:57:34.619 --> 00:57:37.739
Paul McGann, Nathan, Paul McGann.

1085
00:57:38.340 --> 00:57:40.380
Only with a wig.

1086
00:57:40.440 --> 00:57:43.800
Paul McGann without the wig is not canon.

1087
00:57:43.920 --> 00:57:48.840
I think the reason that David Tennant irritates you is the reason

1088
00:57:48.840 --> 00:57:53.159
he is so successful in the eyes of the general public.

1089
00:57:53.219 --> 00:57:59.400
He is a really broadly acceptable and charismatic and therefore

1090
00:57:59.400 --> 00:58:02.940
slightly bland iteration of the doctor.

1091
00:58:03.000 --> 00:58:07.260
It's why fans, I think, like Matt Smith's performance, that sort

1092
00:58:07.260 --> 00:58:12.780
of that more doctorary slightly idiosyncratic performance versus

1093
00:58:12.780 --> 00:58:13.920
David Tennants.

1094
00:58:13.980 --> 00:58:19.440
David Tennant is playing it as an acting part without leaning into

1095
00:58:19.440 --> 00:58:23.400
all of that doctorishness, which is kind of like removed from what

1096
00:58:23.400 --> 00:58:26.760
Christopher Eccleston was doing, but is sort of more in the Doctor

1097
00:58:26.760 --> 00:58:27.480
Who mould.

1098
00:58:27.539 --> 00:58:32.460
And I think that's why a broad audience really loves him as the

1099
00:58:32.460 --> 00:58:35.099
doctor, because he's kind of acceptable and accessible to

1100
00:58:35.099 --> 00:58:35.460
everyone.

1101
00:58:35.639 --> 00:58:39.420
He's much more human, like that Matt Smith thing of not being able

1102
00:58:39.420 --> 00:58:42.000
to tell if someone's pregnant and stuff like that.

1103
00:58:42.059 --> 00:58:45.000
Like all of that sort of weird Martian nonsense that he goes on

1104
00:58:45.000 --> 00:58:47.400
with, which is really fun and properly funny.

1105
00:58:47.460 --> 00:58:50.880
Um, but tenant's not at all like that.

1106
00:58:50.940 --> 00:58:56.760
I mean, he is the most human of the doctors, isn't he?

1107
00:58:56.820 --> 00:59:01.920
And I think, um, and also I just think the verbal, just the, that

1108
00:59:01.920 --> 00:59:06.300
performance, that huge speech that he comes out with, where he's

1109
00:59:06.300 --> 00:59:09.840
really kind of mercurial, you know, 12nd he's doing the sicker

1110
00:59:09.840 --> 00:59:15.179
axe's voice, you know, that, just ridiculous line, the, it's a fat

1111
00:59:15.179 --> 00:59:16.679
in hand line.

1112
00:59:16.739 --> 00:59:19.980
Like, that's so weird, annoying.

1113
00:59:20.039 --> 00:59:22.260
No one else would ever have done it.

1114
00:59:22.320 --> 00:59:23.760
I really like it.

1115
00:59:23.820 --> 00:59:24.900
I think it's really funny.

1116
00:59:24.960 --> 00:59:30.659
Um, um, the Arthur Dent references the Lion King references, like

1117
00:59:30.659 --> 00:59:35.880
all of that stuff, you know, like he is smart without being a

1118
00:59:35.880 --> 00:59:40.079
boffin, you know, he's because he's just fast and verbal and

1119
00:59:40.079 --> 00:59:40.440
funny.

1120
00:59:40.980 --> 00:59:45.000
It's because he's not talking about Isaac Newton and that kind of

1121
00:59:45.000 --> 00:59:46.800
thing. talking about Harry Potter.

1122
00:59:46.860 --> 00:59:49.199
And so that's what the kids who are watching would be

1123
00:59:49.199 --> 00:59:50.460
referencing.

1124
00:59:50.519 --> 00:59:51.000
Yeah, yeah.

1125
00:59:51.059 --> 00:59:56.039
I think it's also for that reason why David Tennant is cast at

1126
00:59:56.039 --> 00:59:58.980
exactly the right time and why Christopher Eccleston, as much of a

1127
00:59:58.980 --> 01:00:03.480
powerhouse, as he is in series one, it's probably for the good of

1128
01:00:03.480 --> 01:00:06.900
the show that David is the doctor as it moves into its imperial

1129
01:00:06.900 --> 01:00:07.260
phase.

1130
01:00:08.460 --> 01:00:10.619
Yeah, yeah, I think you're right.

1131
01:00:10.679 --> 01:00:11.460
I think you're right.

1132
01:00:11.519 --> 01:00:12.840
He's nowhere near as accessible.

1133
01:00:12.900 --> 01:00:16.440
And having a Doctor Who's spiky and prickly, like my thing is that

1134
01:00:16.440 --> 01:00:20.519
I think the best performance of any actor in the role and the best

1135
01:00:20.519 --> 01:00:23.820
conception of the character is Tom in Horror Fang Rock.

1136
01:00:23.880 --> 01:00:26.400
Like I would just have that all the time.

1137
01:00:27.840 --> 01:00:34.139
But, you know, it's a bit less fun. than tenant, you know, going

1138
01:00:34.139 --> 01:00:37.559
at a 1000000 miles an hour and just sort of being witty and funny

1139
01:00:37.559 --> 01:00:41.039
and, you know, just wordy.

1140
01:00:41.099 --> 01:00:41.880
Yeah.

1141
01:00:41.880 --> 01:00:45.780
And we will eventually get the series going back to that with

1142
01:00:45.780 --> 01:00:49.860
Capaldi's characterisation, which is extremely successful.

1143
01:00:49.920 --> 01:00:53.639
And again, a lot of fans absolutely love Peter Capaldi in his

1144
01:00:53.639 --> 01:00:56.940
performance, but it is undoubtedly playing to a smaller audience.

1145
01:00:57.300 --> 01:00:58.679
Yes.

1146
01:00:59.940 --> 01:01:02.280
All right, I think we won.

1147
01:01:02.340 --> 01:01:02.880
What do you think?

1148
01:01:02.940 --> 01:01:04.980
Let's do the finale again.

1149
01:01:05.039 --> 01:01:06.599
It's good night in the bright order.

1150
01:01:06.659 --> 01:01:09.659
Normally we would do this at the beginning, but I forget.