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This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 09:02:35

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to 500 year diary.

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The only Doctor Who podcast disappointed that this story has so little to say about the winemaking environment on the nesting protein planets.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm James.

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I'm Peter.

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I'm Simon.

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It's the 2nd of January 1971.

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Just shy of a year ago.

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We saw Doctor Who relaunched and retooled with a new Time Lord, a new setting, new regulars, and an entirely new world for them all to happen in.

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But tonight, to our surprise, We're seeing exactly the same thing happening again.

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Let's see if anyone can tell us what the hell is going on in terror of the autumns.

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So last week, we introduced a new timeline in the form of John Pertuy as Doctor Who.

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This week, and in the 1st episode, we actually introduced two new Time Lords, and we introduced the Master very, very quickly, I think.

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The 1st scene.

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I never got that Joe was a timelord.

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Sorry.

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It is really, really quite quick, and it took us quite a long time to get to John Pertwe last time, but we're straight in with the master just immediately, aren't we?

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Yes, there are certain aspects of this opening that I almost feel like they wanted us to feel like we'd arrived in the middle of something rather than this was the beginning of a new season.

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This could so easily be the 2nd master story, the way he just appears straight off the get go.

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You know, Captain Yates is referred to as having cleaned up from the Nestine's last time.

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So it's almost like, well, actually, was he in last year?

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I can't remember.

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I like it.

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I think it's great I mean, we get this introduction.

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We get him sort of establishing who he is and what he's like.

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Then he goes off and commits his 1st crime.

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And then only then do we actually see what's going on elsewhere?

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Yes.

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I think it's the beginning of this story that gives rise to the tale we get that John Pertwee felt threatened by Roger Delgado.

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It's not the fact that Roger Delgado is really good, which he is.

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It's his primacy in the storytelling.

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And right from the start, we go in on the master rather than the doctor.

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And then we cut back to the doctor in the unit headquarters, just faffing around and doing his doctor-ish things.

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I think maybe that's what it was.

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You made a point in the original run of FTE, Nathan, about how Roger Delgado immediately appears in the show and is at risk of becoming the lead because he's more fun and just sort of injects so much energy into it and it risks becoming a show about the master rather than the doctor.

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I mean, one thing that we know about Time Lords is that a Time Lord can be the star of Doctor Who.

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And so it's always the threat that the master poses.

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And I think when they bring the master back for the new series with a clear idea of his role in the narrative, that is the thing that definitely happens and it does happen in series 3.

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I think it happens in basically every scene that Missy is in.

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And also, I think, you know, Sasha Dawan is a more lively figure and Chibnall seems to put a lot more effort into his dialogue than, I'm afraid the doctor is, I think, by that point.

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Well, evil characters are always going to be much more interesting to write and certainly much more interesting to play.

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Yeah, yeah.

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I mean, he is, I think we said in FDE, he's pertwe only foreign.

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But her twee is foreign.

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It's in Pertuia French.

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Yeah, a twist to Lalabo.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Well, I mean, we alluded to this a little bit last week and we'll get there a little bit later, but this is the episode where Pertry is kind of reanalysed as a member of the ruling class.

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And it isn't just his interaction with Mr. Brown Rose from the ministry.

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It is just generally the way that he kind of comports himself and behaves the dismissive way that he reacts to Joe's arrive.

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And also the way that he steals other characters' dialogue for the 1st time.

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It's really weird.

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There's a whole sequence where he basically takes Mark Yeats's dialogue about you thought that you couldn't be hypnotised, whatever the full line is.

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Like, it's quite clear that Richard Franklin is about to deliver a line.

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And then John Pertby kind of breathlessly chops him off.

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It actually happens a couple of times in the story, and I think it's the doctor doing doctor-ish things, but it's quite weird.

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It doesn't really happen again.

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There's something actually interesting from one of the Blu-ray behind the sofas, and I can't recall exactly what season or what story it was in, but Davidson is watching it, and he makes an observation on Pertwee's performance that he felt it's not as light as it should be.

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It's not as a doctor.

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And I thought that was actually interesting. not something I completely agreed with, I have to say, but it's just given the conversation we just had.

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It's an interesting observation for Davidson to have made.

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Is the Paul Cornell review, is it about Terror of the Autons?

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It is.

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It came from the feeling in fandom, in the 90s, where they had a revisionist idea of the poet era, which had been held up as the most amazing doctor who ever throughout the 1980s, where they thought, let's revise it, and let's talk about how crap this is.

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And Paul Cornell led that with his review of Terror of the Autons, which basically, and comically, said that it was absolute rubbish and pointed out in all the ways that it was.

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And I think a lot of that lingers, like the Jeremy Bentham reviews from things like a celebration, set fandom's ideas.

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I think Paul Cornell's review of this story is actually responsible for a lot of tropes of the Pertwee era, which don't necessarily exist outside of this story.

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So it's espousing received fan wisdom.

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Yeah.

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Well, I mean, he ends that saying, you know, the time lords exile, the doctor to earth, and make him a Tory.

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And I think that's not fair, but they do actually make him kind of, you know, a patrician authority figure in a way that he hadn't been since Hartnall.

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And even Hartnell isn't a very good patrician authority figure because he's naughty and a little bit ramshackle and a little bit chill.

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And do you remember Tom's description of John Pertwe, you know, where he's like a lap poster?

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He's like a light bulb.

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Tall light bulb?

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Yes, yes, yes, yes.

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And so kind of twinkles.

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And so he is patrician in a way that even Capoldi, I think, doesn't manage.

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Like, he he is that.

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But I don't think necessarily that that's a problem, although he is a little bit more unpleasant to people, I think, in this story than...

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I think what it comes down to is that he's pro-establishment per se, if that's where the critique of him being a Tory is coming from.

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It's not so much that he's pro-establishment, but he's portrayed as being of the establishment.

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But at the same time, he's anti-establishment because, you know, he does keep talking about the military mind and in one story is no one capable of thinking on their own and so on like that.

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He's very sceptical of that kind of authority.

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However, he loves the trappings of the aristocracy, if I could. right. and that is that is the 3rd doctor through and through.

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Look, the way he dresses.

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Exactly, yeah.

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Yeah, you could say he queers establishment in a way.

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Well, because he's wearing the fluffy out.

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Yes, there's an Oscar Wildness.

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There's a sense of the wildness.

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Yeah, that's what I meant.

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Yeah.

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Because I think that the, that scene, that particular scene where he says quite the wrong sort of chat is coming into a rat.

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And that's really super unpleasant. think that there's any way of making that likeable.

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But we also...

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We all have that thought about government departments.

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I don't know whether we would put it in quite that way.

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I couldn't possibly comment.

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James, you've always been the wrong kind in James.

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But what we do get is we get to see him interacting with another time, Lord, for the 1st time on the same level.

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So we had the time meddler, obviously, and that's sort of a little bit different.

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And then we had the tribunal, which is what they're called here, I think.

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And he is scared of them, you know, Trout and sort of scared of them in a way, and he certainly has to do what they say.

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But then we just get this guy.

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And would you believe that he has a name in the wider fandom and it is Wait for it, Adelphi.

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I know, Adelphi space name.

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And he's absolutely Sir Frank or like Herbert.

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Yes, yes.

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Or something like that.

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Like he's like, it's so stupid.

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Delphi to Verat Rolunda.

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He's a pre-regeneration terrible Zodin is what he is.

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But there again, he's a man from the ministry.

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He looks like he's like the head of a government department, doesn't he?

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He's sort of quite natalie dressed.

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He's got the bowl.

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He's got an umbrella and stuff.

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And he speaks very poshly.

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And we talk.

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He definitely went to the right kind of school.

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Well, and that's what we talk about.

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We do talk about his degree in the academy, perjury's degree.

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All of that kind of thing is all sort of expressed in these upper class terms.

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So when Holmes gets hold of the time laws and finally gets to present them in the way that he wants.

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That's what they all are, aren't they?

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They're all sort of ineffectual old upperclass men in sort of Oxford colleges or whatever.

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Here, it's the civil service, but it's a sort of very similar thing.

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But you see, the 3rd doctor is new money.

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The 3rd doctor aspires to all that kind of trappings of aristocracy, but is not part of it.

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No, he's not new money. old money.

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In what way?

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I think he's the 3rd son of an aristocrat.

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So basically he's not inheriting the timeline.

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I see you mean old money with no money.

137
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Yes, yes, exactly.

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That's a standard trope.

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I mean, yes. sort of English, exactly.

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He's away with 3rd son.

141
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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What the doctor is.

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What he's always been and what the 3rd doctor is is a hater of bureaucracy.

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Exactly.

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And that's what he's talking about with the wrong sort of chap is creeping into the department.

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It's those people who are just kind of time servers.

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They're not there to actually achieve anything, they're just there to hold the positions.

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And that's your kind of exactly, Mr. Chin, that you get in a couple of stories time.

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But it's also the whole way that the civil service is portrayed throughout the 70s, which then, of course, leads to programs like, yes, Minister, yes, Prime Minister.

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The civil service in the modern era in all the public service, as you'd now call it, does not reflect that sort of 70s, you know, the ends, there is no ends in administration only means, you know, kind of Humphreyism.

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Yeah, I mean, part of the thing is for us as Doctor Who fans, looking back at Doctor Who in the 60s, we get this experience of our favourite TV show being made by that system.

152
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Exactly.

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You know, very much in sort of memos and all of that kind of thing, program prevention offices.

154
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The memos exist, the episodes don't.

155
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But also that is Holmes's conception of the doctor, isn't it?

156
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But the enemies of the doctor are bureaucrats and they're rule bound.

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And you see it in the valleyard, I think.

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But you do see...

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Sunmakers, absolutely, all the way through.

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Yeah, not necessarily enemies, just people he doesn't like.

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Yeah, yeah.

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What I think is the best story of this era is kind of of monsters.

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And that has things to say about class while very loudly saying that it's nothing political.

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But those people, the gray-faced men of interminor are all just civil servants, having discussions and they're the doctor's adversary there who he's contrasted with and up against.

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But it's not very much like that in series 7.

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No, the doctor's more of an equal opportunist rude person in season seven.

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And so he'll turn up in sort of the space command centre in ambassadors of death and just be rude to the command there just because.

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Whereas I think terror of the autons distils it into, he's rude to the right kinds of people.

169
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Yeah, yes.

170
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But, I mean, the class thing is sort of different and the time lords, I think.

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We have the time lords back.

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And it's kind of interesting that the time loads are introduced at the end of series 6.

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They're in some senses responsible for the premise of series 7, but they don't really get talked about, and now they're back, and they're back on the table, and they will be back this season.

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Look, they're just back to give us a kick along to just introduce who the master is.

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He's one of the doctor's own race.

176
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The end.

177
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Oh, I suppose actually...

178
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Yeah, no, he's back in colony instead, of course.

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They mentioned frequently in the claws of Axos.

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They're kind of used to kind of motivate the story or to create the premise.

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The way that the exile is.

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And we don't see them that much.

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We don't see them that much, but it's surprising that this big kind of development disappears for a year, more or less, and then they're starting to say, all right, we can incorporate the time lords into the show sort of more regularly into the premise.

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So the other thing that we did last year, of course, was introduced to new regular characters, the brigadier, who was a character, but not a regular, and Liz Shaw, now we introduce quite a stable of new regular characters.

185
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They've kind of come in dribs and drabs, haven't they?

186
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I mean, you get the brigadier first, then you get, well, bent and returning from his appearance in the invasion, and then you get Mikey Yates because you've had a kind of a succession of, you know, ancillary other...

187
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I mean, Benton was in ambassadors in Inferno.

188
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Oh, yes, that's what I'm saying.

189
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You get Benson in Inferno.

190
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More so, in fact, a little bit in ambassadors, but mainly inferno.

191
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So he kind of slides in and then you get sort of Mikey Yates being introduced. as I sort of tried to say before, they're kind of introduced as if they've already been there, we just haven't seen them.

192
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I didn't know as a child that this was Mike Yates's 1st story.

193
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I just, you just assume that he's there.

194
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You 2 assume that he's there from the beginning, don't you?

195
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I actually had an impression before watching Spearhead in preparation for watching this, that he was in Spearhead.

196
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No, no, no, no, Yates.

197
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Because I hadn't watched it in a decade and I was misremembering him being...

198
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You don't want to miss out on Captain Monroe or Paul Darrow.

199
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Well exactly.

200
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Actually, I actually don't think it makes a whole lot of difference that they're introducing a new character in Captain Yeats because there's always been that captain character.

201
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And actually the 3 that we've had so far, Captain Turner in the Invasion, Captain Monroe in Spearhead and then Captain Paul Darrow in the Siberia.

202
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Hawkins.

203
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Hawkins.

204
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Yes, yes, yes. are actually all better characters than Mike Yates.

205
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I agree with that. and played better.

206
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

207
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And they're played by better actors.

208
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So, I mean, that's a thing.

209
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I think you're just meant to think that this is the latest iteration of the unit 2nd in command and it could be different next week, but for some happy reason, it's not.

210
00:16:19.980 --> 00:16:32.940
Yeah, I mean, by the time we hit the end of this season, we really do have a proper stable of regulars and Mike gets to do things that are Mike things rather than just Captain Yates things.

211
00:16:33.000 --> 00:16:36.659
Although funnily enough, it then immediately starts to disintegrate.

212
00:16:36.720 --> 00:16:37.620
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

213
00:16:37.679 --> 00:16:38.940
He starts to become unavailable.

214
00:16:39.000 --> 00:16:45.179
And I could fully imagine Joe going on a date with any of those previous captains than I could, Captain Yates.

215
00:16:45.240 --> 00:16:46.980
Even Paul for some reason.

216
00:16:47.220 --> 00:16:49.559
It's very interesting as well.

217
00:16:49.620 --> 00:16:57.659
The introduction of Joe because I think in many ways, Liz was a character who didn't really work for the show.

218
00:16:57.720 --> 00:17:08.400
I think she's a great character and a great actress and I love Liz Shaw, but I know what they were trying to do by bringing it back to a more child friendly character who could be an identification figure.

219
00:17:08.460 --> 00:17:17.279
And it's very interesting how we almost missed out on the Liz Shaw character because they gave serious thought to actually making it Isabel from the invasion and bringing her back.

220
00:17:17.339 --> 00:17:24.059
And she is very similar to Joe. She's vivacious and she sort of goes off and gets herself into trouble and she wears...

221
00:17:24.059 --> 00:17:25.380
Although old and groovy things.

222
00:17:25.440 --> 00:17:26.160
Although older.

223
00:17:26.220 --> 00:17:31.019
Sally Faulkner would have been 36 when they brought her back.

224
00:17:31.019 --> 00:17:32.099
Possibly ancient.

225
00:17:32.220 --> 00:17:33.240
Positively ancient.

226
00:17:33.299 --> 00:17:49.619
But the point is, Joe comes across as a girl in terms of, you know, she's fresh out of high school or fresh out of whatever degree she's done, college, whereas Isabel would come across as more and certainly more sassy and more worldly, even though, you know, obviously Joe and Katie are both absolutely spectacular.

227
00:17:49.680 --> 00:17:53.460
And they just hit it off from the 1st moment.

228
00:17:53.519 --> 00:17:56.339
It's just that opening scene with the fire extinguisher.

229
00:17:56.400 --> 00:17:57.359
They are so good.

230
00:17:57.420 --> 00:18:00.660
And the way she looks at him, you know, I'm your new assistant.

231
00:18:00.720 --> 00:18:03.240
She is spot on from the get go.

232
00:18:03.299 --> 00:18:05.640
And yes, I know that the film sequences would have been done first.

233
00:18:05.700 --> 00:18:13.140
It's instantly delivers warmth, which a lot of season 7 didn't have, and again, I love it, though, I do.

234
00:18:13.200 --> 00:18:13.980
Love it, though, I do.

235
00:18:14.099 --> 00:18:16.799
Not as much warmth, not as much warmth, because he is very wise.

236
00:18:16.859 --> 00:18:17.579
He was saying last week.

237
00:18:17.640 --> 00:18:22.680
John is very warm with Carolyn John in that opening sequence that they have together in the in the unit lab.

238
00:18:22.740 --> 00:18:25.440
There's nothing wrong with the Liz character per se.

239
00:18:25.500 --> 00:18:28.559
It's just, I think that this is just better for the format of the show.

240
00:18:28.619 --> 00:18:31.500
I'm trying to work out if the cart came before the horse.

241
00:18:31.559 --> 00:18:40.799
Is the show changing and therefore Joe is a manifestation of that or do they craft Joe and then the entire show becomes Joe Flavoured?

242
00:18:40.859 --> 00:18:49.500
Like, it's really telling to compare this with Spearhead from Space, because so many of the elements are the same.

243
00:18:50.160 --> 00:18:57.359
And last week, we talked about the kind of realism that Spearhead from Space has.

244
00:18:57.420 --> 00:19:09.180
And in fact, this version of Earth that this show is set in now is vastly different from what we get in Spearhead from Space.

245
00:19:09.240 --> 00:19:20.160
And look at how quickly everything happens and how we go from place to place to place really, very, very quickly, much, much more than we ever have.

246
00:19:20.400 --> 00:19:25.980
That's actually effective change in the production techniques, though.

247
00:19:26.700 --> 00:19:33.720
They had new equipment and were able to edit more. for season 8 than they were for season.

248
00:19:33.779 --> 00:19:37.619
So season 7 is still a little, even though it's in colour, is still a little bit like it was in season six.

249
00:19:37.680 --> 00:19:39.299
Yeah, it's much more for live.

250
00:19:39.660 --> 00:19:47.339
They got new equipment before season eight, which meant they could have more edits in an episode.

251
00:19:47.460 --> 00:19:52.019
Is that also when they start to shoot rather than one episode a week. shoot 2 episodes every 2 weeks or something.

252
00:19:52.079 --> 00:19:53.519
Isn't that the same thing?

253
00:19:53.579 --> 00:19:55.019
They trial it.

254
00:19:55.079 --> 00:20:02.400
They had trial at the previous season, but for this season, it becomes the norm, like 2 episodes recorded every fortnight.

255
00:20:02.460 --> 00:20:14.519
But I think what Nathan was saying, though, is the fact that we start to get that kind of invented world spearhead from space is set in in cottage hospitals and, you know, high streets and so on like that at a big, you know, grim plastics factory.

256
00:20:14.579 --> 00:20:20.880
Whereas now we've got, yes, there's a little bit of a high street at times, but basically when people are being given daffodils.

257
00:20:20.940 --> 00:20:27.119
But, you know, there's a circus and there's a research, this antiquarry and a research facility and so on like that.

258
00:20:27.180 --> 00:20:33.299
And I mean, look at unit, Unity and Spearhead from Space was just behind a faceless building somewhere in central London.

259
00:20:33.359 --> 00:20:39.119
Here, it's in a weird kind of... on a canal where you sort of throw things through windows.

260
00:20:39.180 --> 00:20:40.500
It's sort of it's out there.

261
00:20:40.559 --> 00:20:41.640
It's out.

262
00:20:41.700 --> 00:20:42.359
It's not in.

263
00:20:42.420 --> 00:20:43.559
Yeah.

264
00:20:43.619 --> 00:20:47.099
Yeah, I think there's a speed, though, that we move from place to place.

265
00:20:47.160 --> 00:20:49.920
So we move to the museum, we go circus, museum.

266
00:20:49.980 --> 00:20:52.859
We're in and out of John Farrell's house.

267
00:20:52.920 --> 00:20:54.599
We're in the plastics factory.

268
00:20:54.660 --> 00:20:56.220
We move really, really rapidly.

269
00:20:56.279 --> 00:21:05.279
There's a moment in episode one where Joe goes off to make a list of plastics factories to divide up among people.

270
00:21:05.339 --> 00:21:14.940
The next time we see her, she's actually in a plastics factory investigating one. and there's no connective tissue between those scenes at all.

271
00:21:15.000 --> 00:21:19.680
So we're going very, very rapidly through odd spaces, I think, than we did.

272
00:21:19.740 --> 00:21:25.319
I can actually see how it would work as a six-part story and how those things would have been stretched out.

273
00:21:25.380 --> 00:21:27.720
But I wonder whether that would have helped.

274
00:21:27.779 --> 00:21:28.680
No, no, no.

275
00:21:28.740 --> 00:21:31.319
I'm not saying it would, but I can just see it in a pertly kind of way.

276
00:21:31.380 --> 00:21:33.180
I mean, clause of Axos does the same thing.

277
00:21:33.240 --> 00:21:36.299
It has the same very quick cutting between scenes.

278
00:21:36.359 --> 00:21:38.519
But actually, this is something that I wanted to talk about.

279
00:21:38.640 --> 00:21:41.700
It built on what James was talking about with kind of new technology.

280
00:21:41.759 --> 00:21:49.680
The reason terror of the autons feels like another revamp of the show is that the mise en scene of the show is completely different.

281
00:21:49.740 --> 00:21:52.619
So the way that it's actually presented is different.

282
00:21:52.740 --> 00:21:54.359
And again, it's a bit of a blind alley.

283
00:21:54.420 --> 00:21:57.180
There aren't many examples of the show looking like this.

284
00:21:57.240 --> 00:21:59.759
They sort of settle down into a halfway point.

285
00:21:59.819 --> 00:22:01.980
It's like they, let's look at the soundtrack.

286
00:22:02.039 --> 00:22:08.279
The soundtrack is, as Nathan might call it, blaring space nonsense because it's all done on a synthesiser.

287
00:22:08.339 --> 00:22:10.259
It's very kind of...

288
00:22:10.319 --> 00:22:12.720
They swiftly decide that that doesn't work.

289
00:22:12.779 --> 00:22:17.579
And so they mix it in with some conventional instruments and you get, say, the day of the garlic score.

290
00:22:17.640 --> 00:22:22.319
Here there's a reliance on shooting in a certain way that doesn't quite work.

291
00:22:22.380 --> 00:22:26.700
And so they sort of go back to a happy medium between what they used to shoot and what they shoot now.

292
00:22:26.759 --> 00:22:38.940
So the reason that this is sometimes called comic strip is that Barry Letts alternates between mid-shots and big close-ups, often for no dramatic purpose, and comic strip panels do the same thing.

293
00:22:39.000 --> 00:22:41.940
They have those big reactive close-ups on characters.

294
00:22:42.000 --> 00:22:53.160
People also walk into an outer frame without wide establishing shots, which means you don't get a sense of place and geography on the sets, and often scenes will start on those big close shots.

295
00:22:53.279 --> 00:22:59.519
So an example that you were talking about there, Nathan, is the sphere being stolen from the museum in episode one.

296
00:22:59.579 --> 00:23:03.299
In spearhead from space, you would have had a direct lead up to this.

297
00:23:03.359 --> 00:23:05.099
So you would build up to that moment.

298
00:23:05.160 --> 00:23:11.940
You'd have like an establishing shot of where you would were, you might have some mysterious shot of a character walking up the stairs or something like that.

299
00:23:12.000 --> 00:23:13.079
You get none of that.

300
00:23:13.140 --> 00:23:15.779
It's 3 quick odd shots.

301
00:23:15.839 --> 00:23:18.960
Very, very quick at last 10 seconds, that scene.

302
00:23:19.019 --> 00:23:27.539
It's a weirdly high close-up of the casing and MCU of the guard being hit by who Russell.

303
00:23:29.460 --> 00:23:31.319
You, Russell.

304
00:23:31.380 --> 00:23:32.220
You, Russell.

305
00:23:33.059 --> 00:23:35.700
When I was young, I thought his name was you Russell, EWE.

306
00:23:36.599 --> 00:23:41.039
So you get the weirdly close high shot of the casing.

307
00:23:41.099 --> 00:23:49.500
You get the MCU of the guard being hit by you, Russell on CSO, and then a cut back to the casing for an inordinately long time in things on it.

308
00:23:49.559 --> 00:23:52.140
And the grammar of those shots is misplaced.

309
00:23:52.200 --> 00:24:00.059
You need to know where you are, but you only get where you are in the 2nd shot where you get the Kromakishot of the museum behind them.

310
00:24:00.119 --> 00:24:02.339
But there's a lot happening in close-up in that short.

311
00:24:02.400 --> 00:24:04.740
You've got one character yelling and another one clubbing them.

312
00:24:04.799 --> 00:24:08.519
So by the time you cut away, you only just taken in what's happening.

313
00:24:08.579 --> 00:24:10.380
I don't think it actually works.

314
00:24:10.440 --> 00:24:17.519
I think it's a style of the show that moves too quickly and doesn't ground you well enough, which is why they do away with it.

315
00:24:17.579 --> 00:24:19.559
And it's not just Barry Lett's being a bad director.

316
00:24:19.619 --> 00:24:20.819
We know he's not a bad director.

317
00:24:20.880 --> 00:24:22.740
Enemy of the world is not like this.

318
00:24:22.799 --> 00:24:24.599
Carnival of Monsters is not like this.

319
00:24:24.660 --> 00:24:27.480
So it was a stylistic choice, which I think they make.

320
00:24:27.660 --> 00:24:46.440
Do you think, though, that's because this is the 1st time they have had the ability to edit so much, they are actually getting a little too excited and and go, oh, I can have lots of fast moving, pacy kind of shots and say maybe they over- over-ag that pudding?

321
00:24:46.500 --> 00:24:47.039
It could be.

322
00:24:47.099 --> 00:24:54.839
Or is it like series 11 where they, you know, do an exciting new look, which doesn't quite take for the rest of the season?

323
00:24:55.019 --> 00:25:04.559
It could be, but also remember that they would have had to have planned for this because it moves so quickly in the shooting that these episodes would have to have been overwritten.

324
00:25:04.619 --> 00:25:17.220
You couldn't have had a standard 25 minute episode being shot like this because that example we were using before of the master stealing the sphere from the museum, that should have lasted a longer time on screen and it doesn't.

325
00:25:17.279 --> 00:25:20.700
So that begs the question, was this the remit?

326
00:25:20.759 --> 00:25:22.019
Did they say we're going to try this?

327
00:25:22.079 --> 00:25:26.339
We're going to shoot it really quickly. and like make it really energetic?

328
00:25:26.400 --> 00:25:29.940
Or did perhaps the scripts come in long and they decided that was the way to shoot it?

329
00:25:30.000 --> 00:25:37.799
I think you might be onto something there because there are missing, there are significantly large missing chunks of this episode.

330
00:25:37.859 --> 00:25:42.779
There's actually someone in the entitles of one of the episodes who doesn't appear in the story.

331
00:25:42.839 --> 00:25:44.819
How interesting scene was cut out.

332
00:25:44.880 --> 00:25:46.019
A policeman character.

333
00:25:46.079 --> 00:25:48.420
It would have just been a line, but nevertheless.

334
00:25:55.380 --> 00:25:57.779
Yeah, what were you going to say, son?

335
00:25:57.839 --> 00:26:01.500
Well, I'm going to disagree and agree with different aspects.

336
00:26:01.559 --> 00:26:14.880
I want to go back to the 6 part thing because I actually wonder whether plotting wise, the story was devised, was at least pencilled out as a 6 parter and then condensed because there is an awful lot that happens in episode one even more.

337
00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:16.859
And I think Claude of Axos works in a similar way.

338
00:26:16.920 --> 00:26:26.519
Maybe it's just because mentally at this point in the program they're thinking in the context of 6 part stories and a four-parter is a shortened 6 part as opposed to what becomes the other way around.

339
00:26:26.579 --> 00:26:28.619
You know, a six-parter is a stretched for parter.

340
00:26:28.680 --> 00:26:30.960
I actually think it's not a conscious decision.

341
00:26:31.019 --> 00:26:33.660
I mean, I'd be surprised, I should say, if it was a conscious decision.

342
00:26:33.720 --> 00:26:39.839
I think it's the fact that Barry lets is really going gung-ho with his Kramer key with his CSO.

343
00:26:39.900 --> 00:26:41.039
He's got ideas.

344
00:26:41.099 --> 00:26:42.539
He's got ambition for this thing.

345
00:26:42.599 --> 00:26:47.220
And remember, he appears in that training video. that's done internally with BBC.

346
00:26:47.279 --> 00:26:54.599
He is an advocate for using this technology, not just in space dramas like Doctor Who, but in normal dramas, like in their setup, it's a village.

347
00:26:54.660 --> 00:27:02.400
I think it's because they've decided to write it with so many little scenes and he's going to achieve it with Mrs. Farrell's kitchen and the museum and so on, just using Kremaki.

348
00:27:02.460 --> 00:27:06.119
There's also another sequence where Farrell discovers the master in with the autons.

349
00:27:06.119 --> 00:27:07.680
And that's a Kramer key background as well.

350
00:27:07.740 --> 00:27:12.119
There's quite a lot of chromic backgrounds just so you can get a single shot of a single location.

351
00:27:12.180 --> 00:27:18.599
And I think it's Barrelett's wanting to expand the number of quote unquote locations and or quote unquote sets.

352
00:27:18.660 --> 00:27:28.619
And then when it comes down to it, in practice in the studio, to set up that CSO museum, you can only really have the 2 shots the way it was done because it was going to take 2 long to set up kind of thing.

353
00:27:28.680 --> 00:27:34.440
And so you couldn't do as many shots as you would normally do using the traditional grammar of a television drama, especially at that era.

354
00:27:34.500 --> 00:27:35.700
I mean, I think you're right.

355
00:27:35.759 --> 00:27:45.779
And also, that's why they pair it back from now because that scene that you referenced, where Farrell comes in and the master is activating the autons, actually gets lost in the drama.

356
00:27:45.839 --> 00:28:05.819
It should be a really scary part of the end of episode one where the master is activating the autons, which the audience has seen before for the 1st time, but actually it's done again in 3 shots, wide shots of autons just kind of sitting up, big close-up on Farrell, just looking panicked, and then a short of the auton about to hit him, and it's completely thrown away.

357
00:28:05.880 --> 00:28:07.920
Whereas actually, it's a big part of the drama.

358
00:28:07.980 --> 00:28:14.519
So I think that they decide you can't actually shoot important parts of the drama against Chromaki because they don't land.

359
00:28:14.640 --> 00:28:29.220
I also think they're remembering the snappiness of the cutting in spearhead from space, which you could do because the whole thing was cut on film, so you could slice it together, better, and you get this kind of that 60s, as Todd was saying last week, is that kind of 60s feature film, flavour to it.

360
00:28:29.279 --> 00:28:35.220
And I think that's what he's trying to emulate here and it just doesn't quite work in the same way because of the other restrictions.

361
00:28:35.279 --> 00:28:44.400
It ties their hands in how you shoot drama, and that's why tear of the autons, again, is characterised as comic strip, because it doesn't feel like actual drama sometimes.

362
00:28:44.460 --> 00:28:49.859
It feels like there's just cameras covering things that are happening rather than a buildup of the way that you cut drama together.

363
00:28:49.920 --> 00:29:00.539
So if you use that example of the time lord appearing to the doctor and he's out in midair, which is funny, what they do to bring him into the doctor is just zoom in on the amter against.

364
00:29:00.599 --> 00:29:01.440
It kind of looks pretty crappy.

365
00:29:01.500 --> 00:29:09.119
It's okay, but what really undoes it is when they try to cut to the live action studio and the placement of the 2 characters.

366
00:29:09.119 --> 00:29:10.380
Yes, they're like right nose to nose.

367
00:29:10.440 --> 00:29:11.519
It's bizarre.

368
00:29:11.579 --> 00:29:14.880
Yeah, it's very often he's like, whoa, the doctor wasn't standing there, was he?

369
00:29:14.940 --> 00:29:20.460
And so the natural coverage is undermined by it, which is why they never lean into it to this extent again.

370
00:29:20.519 --> 00:29:25.440
They only ever use going forward apart from a few very rare occasions.

371
00:29:25.500 --> 00:29:31.440
They only have used chroma key for space backgrounds and to do things which are slightly fantastic.

372
00:29:31.500 --> 00:29:39.180
Sometimes you'll have a very competent director like Christopher Barry who will use it to fill in the background of corridors.

373
00:29:39.240 --> 00:29:43.740
So in the brain of Morbius, you'll have the corridor in Solons laboratory.

374
00:29:43.740 --> 00:29:46.500
And it's actually got a chromicky background to extend it.

375
00:29:46.619 --> 00:29:48.420
Same things happens in robots of death.

376
00:29:48.420 --> 00:29:50.400
Rather than the blow-up photograph.

377
00:29:50.400 --> 00:29:52.200
Rather than the blow-up photograph.

378
00:29:52.259 --> 00:29:57.119
Isn't it funny whenever we go to a radio telescope, things always fall apart in the production?

379
00:29:57.240 --> 00:29:57.900
Yes, exactly.

380
00:29:57.900 --> 00:30:08.039
But you never again have an instance where you're trying to place real characters into a real world environment and convince the audience by effect.

381
00:30:08.400 --> 00:30:10.980
But also the snappiness as well.

382
00:30:11.039 --> 00:30:16.619
I mean, we talk about the comic book thinking, I think you're right with the choices of shots and you go to these really big close-ups quite a lot.

383
00:30:16.680 --> 00:30:20.759
I also think it's just a stylistic thing and it's a direction that we don't go in.

384
00:30:20.819 --> 00:30:26.940
It's the stylistic choices to make it almost hyper real or unreal.

385
00:30:27.000 --> 00:30:28.559
And they decide to go back to the real.

386
00:30:28.619 --> 00:30:29.759
They do.

387
00:30:29.819 --> 00:30:31.019
I mean, we do go back to it again.

388
00:30:31.079 --> 00:30:33.180
I think to some degree in clause of access.

389
00:30:33.240 --> 00:30:36.539
Yes, I was going to say, clause of access has a very similar flavour to it in terms of that.

390
00:30:36.599 --> 00:30:38.400
Michael Ferguson is a very good director.

391
00:30:38.460 --> 00:30:39.359
Yeah.

392
00:30:39.359 --> 00:30:49.140
And also, I was speaking last week in Spearhead from Space about how much influence Douglas Canfield had in the way that he shot Web of Fear and the Invasion.

393
00:30:49.200 --> 00:30:54.779
And Canfield uses intense close-ups on characters in the studio.

394
00:30:54.839 --> 00:31:05.099
And so you'll get a lot of scenes. of the doctor and Travers in the laboratory in Web of Fear, and a lot of it is shot in these incredible close-ups of both characters.

395
00:31:05.220 --> 00:31:10.380
I think Barry Letts is trying to ape that and it doesn't quite work because he's knocked Douglas Canfield.

396
00:31:10.440 --> 00:31:16.259
Canfield just knows exactly where to place his camera to have a really interesting shot of someone's face.

397
00:31:16.319 --> 00:31:18.960
Whereas I don't think other directors can do it, but they were trying.

398
00:31:25.799 --> 00:31:37.920
So, the other thing that I want to talk about a bit is the way the story is structured compared to the last time we had the auton.

399
00:31:38.039 --> 00:31:39.000
It's so weird.

400
00:31:39.059 --> 00:31:41.579
It's just structured as a series of attacks on the doctor.

401
00:31:41.640 --> 00:31:42.539
Yeah.

402
00:31:42.599 --> 00:31:45.299
So there's no plot as such.

403
00:31:45.359 --> 00:31:47.579
Like it doesn't develop, I think.

404
00:31:47.640 --> 00:31:49.980
I think that there are a series of things.

405
00:31:50.039 --> 00:32:02.460
I guess the closest that we get to plot development is as we start to find out about the final plot, which is the daffodils, but essentially it is just a whole bunch of stuff that happens to the doctor. and then it just stops happening.

406
00:32:02.519 --> 00:32:03.119
Yeah.

407
00:32:03.180 --> 00:32:09.960
And what we had last time was we had to introduce these new characters in this new premise.

408
00:32:10.019 --> 00:32:19.680
So we basically kept the doctor out of the action from episode 2 until about the end of episode 4 and had him getting to know Liz and doing his thing and stuff.

409
00:32:19.740 --> 00:32:20.880
Here.

410
00:32:20.940 --> 00:32:36.599
I think there's some of that motivating it, and I think we do have to spend some time with Joe, and we'll talk a little bit more about her, I think, but it is just a bunch of things that happen one after the other to the doctor culminating in, you know, him being kidnapped by the master at the end of the story.

411
00:32:36.660 --> 00:32:40.380
I think it's because it's Doctor Who's 1st sequel.

412
00:32:40.440 --> 00:32:43.440
And so they don't have to do all of that setup.

413
00:32:43.500 --> 00:32:46.920
They think that the audience knows what the autons are.

414
00:32:46.980 --> 00:32:52.319
They sort of cover it in one dialogue sequence with Richard Franklin and Katie Manning.

415
00:32:52.380 --> 00:32:56.279
And so what Holmes does is just try to spice it up.

416
00:32:56.339 --> 00:32:58.559
He knows that they're going for a lot of action.

417
00:32:58.619 --> 00:33:00.539
And so he just keeps throwing in action.

418
00:33:00.599 --> 00:33:02.400
In fact, it's gratuitous action.

419
00:33:02.460 --> 00:33:09.299
So not only do you have the doctor being an attempt to blow up the doctor, 3 separate occasions.

420
00:33:09.359 --> 00:33:11.160
There are bombs which try to blow up the doctor.

421
00:33:11.220 --> 00:33:13.019
But anytime something...

422
00:33:13.380 --> 00:33:14.940
It's true.

423
00:33:15.000 --> 00:33:16.619
That is true.

424
00:33:18.420 --> 00:33:23.400
In the normalisation, he makes the one at the Circus of Santaran.

425
00:33:25.019 --> 00:33:25.920
Yes, it does.

426
00:33:25.980 --> 00:33:28.019
But you know, don't even get me started on that.

427
00:33:28.140 --> 00:33:34.680
I did wonder where that was when I was watching the story as a child because I'd read the book first.

428
00:33:34.740 --> 00:33:35.519
Yes, me too.

429
00:33:35.579 --> 00:33:39.119
It's not actually the first, you can't really say it's the 1st sequel, though.

430
00:33:39.180 --> 00:33:42.720
I mean, I think it's the 1st one that's more most closely remade.

431
00:33:42.779 --> 00:33:46.619
Even the moonbase isn't as much of a remake of 10 planets as this is a spinhead.

432
00:33:46.680 --> 00:33:48.720
Yeah, yeah, or snowman and web of fear.

433
00:33:48.779 --> 00:33:50.640
But it's a certain sequel.

434
00:33:50.700 --> 00:33:51.480
Well, I don't know.

435
00:33:51.539 --> 00:33:52.980
I think I know what you're coming from, though.

436
00:33:53.039 --> 00:33:54.359
It's very much the same thing.

437
00:33:54.420 --> 00:33:59.099
We have a plastic factory that's being taken over, you know, by a guy.

438
00:33:59.160 --> 00:34:00.960
It's less a sequel, more a remake.

439
00:34:00.960 --> 00:34:04.440
Well, and we're going to do this again next year.

440
00:34:04.500 --> 00:34:12.900
It seems to be a thing that we're doing this year and next year is what if a series 7 story only with the master, right?

441
00:34:12.960 --> 00:34:15.840
And we kind of do that this year and we do that next year.

442
00:34:15.900 --> 00:34:17.159
And this is very close to that.

443
00:34:17.219 --> 00:34:32.340
But when the master comes, and the master's just Channing, isn't he, like, the master is essentially Channing, we do have a auton voice guy, but he's just got a featureless head and a sort of, suddenly the auton voice. one of them.

444
00:34:32.400 --> 00:34:33.599
Yeah, one of them.

445
00:34:33.599 --> 00:34:35.340
And look much less scary, unfortunately.

446
00:34:35.400 --> 00:34:36.360
Yes.

447
00:34:36.420 --> 00:34:38.039
Yeah, I'm wondering about that.

448
00:34:38.099 --> 00:34:40.500
Those blue overalls from last week were fantastic.

449
00:34:40.559 --> 00:34:41.820
Oh, and the scarves.

450
00:34:41.880 --> 00:34:42.599
The scarves.

451
00:34:42.659 --> 00:34:45.179
But again, it's down to the direction.

452
00:34:45.239 --> 00:34:49.199
There was something about the way that they moved, the stillness in spearhead from space.

453
00:34:49.260 --> 00:34:53.400
They were much more terrifying than any previous monster in the show.

454
00:34:53.460 --> 00:34:58.019
Well, and the other reason they're more terrifying is because they're still, and then suddenly they run.

455
00:34:58.079 --> 00:35:00.539
Like when he's...

456
00:35:00.539 --> 00:35:00.840
Yes.

457
00:35:00.900 --> 00:35:04.500
And that's what you don't really get in this one because partly because of the huge stupid heads.

458
00:35:04.559 --> 00:35:07.739
Yeah, well, in Doctor Who generally, they can't run because...

459
00:35:08.039 --> 00:35:08.880
So that was so unique last night.

460
00:35:08.940 --> 00:35:16.739
I think the scares in Spearhead come from the same kind of jump scare you get from the weeping angels in the new series.

461
00:35:16.860 --> 00:35:19.260
It's something that shouldn't move.

462
00:35:19.320 --> 00:35:24.900
And then suddenly it moves either out of the corner of your eye or when you blink.

463
00:35:24.960 --> 00:35:30.179
It's because it's suddenly coming towards you and it shouldn't be.

464
00:35:30.239 --> 00:35:35.400
It's like a mundane thing suddenly, suddenly being a threat.

465
00:35:35.460 --> 00:35:39.059
Here, the autons are just surplus to the plot.

466
00:35:39.119 --> 00:35:41.219
They're just the master's henchmen.

467
00:35:41.280 --> 00:35:44.340
Whereas spearhead from space sets out to make them scary.

468
00:35:44.400 --> 00:35:55.139
So the scene with ransom coming back to the factory and looking around and that gallery of autons behind him and one of them just slowly starts to move is an absolutely terrifying sequence.

469
00:35:55.199 --> 00:35:59.699
Whereas in terror of the autons, The autons don't do anything frightening.

470
00:35:59.760 --> 00:36:00.780
No.

471
00:36:00.840 --> 00:36:04.739
In fact, there's no time for atmosphere, I think, is part of the problem here.

472
00:36:04.739 --> 00:36:06.539
And they're not reaching for that.

473
00:36:06.599 --> 00:36:08.519
You know, they did that last year.

474
00:36:08.579 --> 00:36:11.039
And so this is sort of action.

475
00:36:11.099 --> 00:36:13.320
This is introducing the master.

476
00:36:13.500 --> 00:36:17.460
Like it very much has that role, doesn't it?

477
00:36:17.519 --> 00:36:21.420
It's also lacking that it all feels too rushed.

478
00:36:21.480 --> 00:36:29.159
One thing that Better Doctor Who stories always had, is silence or stillness or, as you're saying, Peter, with the autons being still.

479
00:36:29.219 --> 00:36:36.179
And even within a line of dialogue, all the dialogues kind of rushed out and everyone kind of responds to everybody else and it all sort of keeps moving.

480
00:36:36.239 --> 00:36:43.019
You don't get that poise that you get with in spearhead with things like destroy. total destruction.

481
00:36:43.079 --> 00:36:51.059
Like that the pauses in that, it creates a more captivating way of delivering dialogue rather than just getting the lines out as quickly as you can so that the next person can deliver theirs.

482
00:36:51.119 --> 00:36:56.460
Spearhead from Space had that essential John Wood nuttiness, the terror.

483
00:36:56.519 --> 00:36:56.820
Yes.

484
00:36:56.820 --> 00:36:57.420
Yes.

485
00:36:57.480 --> 00:36:58.260
It's the pauses.

486
00:36:58.320 --> 00:37:00.420
It's the best delivery is often the ones with pauses.

487
00:37:00.840 --> 00:37:06.000
It's interesting as well because I think the script is setting up the autons to be scary.

488
00:37:06.059 --> 00:37:13.380
It doesn't give them necessarily scary things to do, but it's making them visually scary by giving them the big daffodil men heads.

489
00:37:13.440 --> 00:37:19.739
We've become used to those through being overexposed to them, but they're actually quite grotesque and sinister looking.

490
00:37:19.800 --> 00:37:25.260
And also the auton heads on the policeman is quite a shocking image, which we've become used to.

491
00:37:25.320 --> 00:37:31.559
I think the script is setting them up for that, but there's just something about the way they're being shot, which isn't frightening.

492
00:37:31.619 --> 00:37:39.539
Although the action sequence in the quarry where the policeman auton is flung down the side of the hill and then just instantly gets up.

493
00:37:39.599 --> 00:37:41.219
That is very, very good too.

494
00:37:41.280 --> 00:37:44.579
But doesn't Terry Walsh like break his arm or something like that?

495
00:37:44.639 --> 00:37:45.539
Still gets up.

496
00:37:45.599 --> 00:37:46.500
He's probably got set.

497
00:37:46.559 --> 00:37:49.320
The show must go off, Nathan.

498
00:37:49.380 --> 00:37:49.800
Yeah.

499
00:37:49.860 --> 00:37:55.079
But the other thing is that the things that are scary in this are less the autons like they were in Spearhead.

500
00:37:55.139 --> 00:37:56.460
It's all the other things.

501
00:37:56.519 --> 00:37:59.099
It's the black chair that kills McDermott.

502
00:37:59.159 --> 00:38:04.139
It's the daffodils with the spraying out the plastic, which is actually very frightening indeed.

503
00:38:04.199 --> 00:38:05.820
And the troll doll and so.

504
00:38:06.000 --> 00:38:06.420
Yes it is.

505
00:38:06.480 --> 00:38:22.739
And that's actually one of the moments in the story that's very well shot as well because when you see the jet of plastic come out from the daffodil, You then cut to an incredible close-up on Katie Manning staggering back from the camera with it over her mouth and that's almost filmmic in the way it's shot in the studio.

506
00:38:22.920 --> 00:38:29.280
So, um, you do see the uh, uh, mask on the table in front of her.

507
00:38:29.340 --> 00:38:32.099
The mask being put on the table by someone's hand.

508
00:38:32.639 --> 00:38:34.380
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

509
00:38:34.440 --> 00:38:35.400
God, you've ruined it now.

510
00:38:35.460 --> 00:38:37.739
I've never noticed that.

511
00:38:37.800 --> 00:38:40.860
Neither did I. Maybe that's something that Tata Swick here.

512
00:38:40.920 --> 00:38:42.420
No, I noticed this time.

513
00:38:42.480 --> 00:38:47.699
It's clear that Robert Holmes has been asked to deliver a very fast paced script.

514
00:38:47.760 --> 00:38:51.780
And so he sat down and he's just sort of ticked off this list of things of like, what's plastic?

515
00:38:51.840 --> 00:38:53.219
What can I make scary?

516
00:38:53.219 --> 00:38:54.000
That's plastic.

517
00:38:54.059 --> 00:38:55.079
Playing cord and so on.

518
00:38:55.079 --> 00:38:56.400
The phone cord, all that kind of stuff.

519
00:38:56.460 --> 00:38:58.019
And actually, that does work.

520
00:38:58.079 --> 00:39:03.780
It's lots of scary images, but it's a lot of it skated over and it skated over in the production as well.

521
00:39:03.840 --> 00:39:13.980
But also, I think this is the 1st time where, or is it, like, is it the 1st time where we've gone for this sort of the camp?

522
00:39:14.039 --> 00:39:21.300
Like the carnival heads on the auton seem to me to be a place that Doctor Who now goes all the time?

523
00:39:21.659 --> 00:39:22.199
Yes.

524
00:39:22.199 --> 00:39:22.559
Yeah.

525
00:39:22.619 --> 00:39:25.559
But I don't think it's gone here before.

526
00:39:25.619 --> 00:39:30.480
And I think the threat of the phone flex is funny.

527
00:39:30.539 --> 00:39:32.340
I think that the...

528
00:39:32.340 --> 00:39:33.360
He makes it funny.

529
00:39:33.420 --> 00:39:34.139
He makes it funny.

530
00:39:34.260 --> 00:39:34.800
With his eyes.

531
00:39:34.860 --> 00:39:35.699
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

532
00:39:35.760 --> 00:39:43.500
But I also think that the, like, yes, that chair is scary, but the chair is also played for laughs, isn't it?

533
00:39:43.559 --> 00:39:44.699
Like that scene.

534
00:39:44.760 --> 00:39:47.039
The line where Michael Wisher calls Sylvia.

535
00:39:47.099 --> 00:39:47.639
Yes.

536
00:39:47.639 --> 00:39:52.260
I had Mr. McDermott say entirely...

537
00:39:52.260 --> 00:39:53.400
That is brilliant.

538
00:39:53.460 --> 00:39:54.719
It's a great double.

539
00:39:54.780 --> 00:39:56.880
But that is just Robert Holmes's dark century.

540
00:39:56.940 --> 00:39:57.599
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

541
00:39:57.659 --> 00:40:00.960
Also the way he comes over afterwards and the master says, oh, that wasn't very fair.

542
00:40:01.019 --> 00:40:02.039
She says, oh, I don't know.

543
00:40:02.099 --> 00:40:03.900
I thought it was crazy.

544
00:40:04.019 --> 00:40:06.179
Just all that yards of bread.

545
00:40:06.239 --> 00:40:08.460
But like he's making it funny.

546
00:40:08.519 --> 00:40:13.920
He's making it terrifying for 10 year olds and funny for people who are older than that, I think.

547
00:40:13.980 --> 00:40:19.559
And that's a choice that the show doesn't always do intentionally, I think.

548
00:40:19.619 --> 00:40:22.260
I think unintentionally it does it quite a lot in the 60s.

549
00:40:22.320 --> 00:40:26.159
It's a sense of the grotesque that the show never had previously.

550
00:40:26.219 --> 00:40:31.559
The only story I can think of that tried that juxtaposition, not very successfully is the celestial toy maker.

551
00:40:31.619 --> 00:40:33.059
Yeah, okay.

552
00:40:33.119 --> 00:40:34.139
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

553
00:40:34.199 --> 00:40:45.900
I think the issue with the 60s, as you say, is less it's unintentional because they just can't realise it in any meaningful way, whereas at least by now they've got a better chance of realising it in a way that looks sensible.

554
00:40:46.019 --> 00:40:52.079
Yeah, I mean, the scene with McDermott getting smothered by the thing is actually funny.

555
00:40:52.199 --> 00:41:00.119
And I also think that the troll doll is funny and her reaction to it, just like, how kind of this is something for young people.

556
00:41:00.179 --> 00:41:01.199
Do you know what I mean?

557
00:41:01.260 --> 00:41:02.460
Like it's a troll doll.

558
00:41:02.519 --> 00:41:04.320
We don't, like, it's an awful looking thing.

559
00:41:04.380 --> 00:41:07.739
It's something those horrid young people would buy.

560
00:41:07.800 --> 00:41:13.440
And so like all of that stuff is funny, like quite deliberately funny.

561
00:41:13.500 --> 00:41:17.159
But it gives a lightness to the story.

562
00:41:17.219 --> 00:41:22.860
Otherwise, it'd be just desperately dark with all these people being asphyxiated. and that's what you do.

563
00:41:22.920 --> 00:41:23.880
It's that lightness.

564
00:41:23.940 --> 00:41:26.940
And I think that's what some often the modern era of the show fails to grasp.

565
00:41:27.000 --> 00:41:28.559
The premise isn't a joke.

566
00:41:28.619 --> 00:41:35.340
It's just there's lightness added in the way that it's created to stop it being just so totally grim.

567
00:41:35.400 --> 00:41:37.440
But that's the Dolgado master, isn't it?

568
00:41:37.500 --> 00:41:38.280
Exactly.

569
00:41:38.340 --> 00:41:41.340
I mean, going back to that McDermott scene, he's so the delivery is so brilliant.

570
00:41:41.400 --> 00:41:43.920
He's suave and then, you know, sit down.

571
00:41:43.980 --> 00:41:50.159
Like, it's just the way he can just throw that out in that way that makes you really look like, yes, I will do anything you say.

572
00:41:50.219 --> 00:41:57.000
The Delgado Master does really vicious, awful things, but always with a sense of style and a sense of humour.

573
00:41:57.059 --> 00:41:58.260
And very well dressed.

574
00:41:59.039 --> 00:42:02.219
Simon, if you're going to be evil, you have to be impeccably dressed.

575
00:42:02.280 --> 00:42:03.000
Exactly.

576
00:42:03.059 --> 00:42:16.500
But also it's the way that the master reacts to things because when he finds out that one of his devilish plans to get the doctor hasn't worked and Farrell comes in to tell him, he reacts with amusement, he's like, you know, oh, yes, you know, the doctor's fired.

577
00:42:16.559 --> 00:42:16.920
That's fine.

578
00:42:16.980 --> 00:42:21.960
The more he tries to prolong his fate, the more delicious it will be when it actually happens.

579
00:42:22.019 --> 00:42:23.280
And that's the master.

580
00:42:23.340 --> 00:42:24.960
The master enjoys himself.

581
00:42:25.019 --> 00:42:27.900
And so he has a sense of humour about all his evil plans.

582
00:42:28.139 --> 00:42:30.239
But that's what he's sort of saying.

583
00:42:30.300 --> 00:42:35.280
That's what we get later with Missy, like the line, whatever the line is with Missy saying that, you know, this is how best friends behave.

584
00:42:35.340 --> 00:42:36.360
You know, it's all gang.

585
00:42:37.019 --> 00:42:37.679
This is our sting.

586
00:42:37.739 --> 00:42:38.760
This is our texting, yes.

587
00:42:39.000 --> 00:42:45.179
I think there's a point there, and we kind of touched on earlier, there's no plot.

588
00:42:45.239 --> 00:42:47.880
The plot is the master's having fun.

589
00:42:47.880 --> 00:42:49.079
The plot is...

590
00:42:49.139 --> 00:42:53.880
Well, the plot is the master just has lots of nefarious schemes one after the other.

591
00:42:53.940 --> 00:42:57.840
He's got backup plans after backup plans because he's just having fun.

592
00:42:57.900 --> 00:43:02.039
But I also think that the end then doesn't land for me as a result of that.

593
00:43:02.099 --> 00:43:16.019
Like, I don't buy the master's sudden change of heart that, you know, the nesting's only been appearing for, like, you know, 30 seconds before he decides that it's going to kill him and he has to change science. how little we care about the plot.

594
00:43:16.079 --> 00:43:17.760
At that point, that's how it's resolved.

595
00:43:17.820 --> 00:43:25.800
The master goes, oh, yeah, wait, that dangly, sparkly thing there isn't going to be able to tell me apart from anyone else.

596
00:43:25.860 --> 00:43:31.800
It's never occurred to me before, but it is just, I mean, Holmes knows what he's doing.

597
00:43:31.860 --> 00:43:32.760
He's not an idiot.

598
00:43:32.820 --> 00:43:39.059
And so he's clearly just gone, this plot really doesn't require much more effort in wrapping it up than these.

599
00:43:39.119 --> 00:43:39.480
Yes.

600
00:43:39.480 --> 00:43:40.440
And you're remembering.

601
00:43:40.500 --> 00:43:41.519
That's me, is that the time?

602
00:43:42.000 --> 00:43:49.019
But you remember that it's been observed before, of course, that Terrence Dix clearly has 2nd thoughts about it.

603
00:43:49.079 --> 00:44:00.300
And so in the novelisation, which is the 1st encounter I had with the story, the brigady pulls a gun on the master and says, I will shoot, you dead, unless you make it go away.

604
00:44:00.360 --> 00:44:01.500
And of course he does.

605
00:44:01.559 --> 00:44:03.059
And that was always right there.

606
00:44:03.119 --> 00:44:24.480
Well, then that's interesting because that's the Terry Sticks novelisation because I've always felt that the pert we stories, as a rule, and particularly the 6 parties have the best resolutions in stories of most of the years of the show, mainly because most of the time, and especially in the 6 parties, the entirety of the final episode is the resolution.

607
00:44:24.539 --> 00:44:32.519
The basically the Cliffhanger to part 5 is the final revelation or the final thing before then we use all of episode 6 to wrap it up.

608
00:44:32.579 --> 00:44:34.860
It creates this wonderful satisfaction when you get to the end.

609
00:44:34.920 --> 00:44:39.239
Tear of the Ortons is one of my lesser favourite pertly stories because it does not do that.

610
00:44:39.300 --> 00:44:44.639
And that's what you just said about the novelisation indicates to me that that's Terrence Dix, a script editor saying, this is how we write a story.

611
00:44:44.699 --> 00:44:49.019
Yeah, and invariably the ends of those 6 parters are always something blowing up.

612
00:44:49.079 --> 00:44:50.460
So there's that to look forward to.

613
00:44:50.519 --> 00:44:51.000
Well, exactly.

614
00:44:51.059 --> 00:44:54.659
But rather than it just being the last 5 minutes, it's the last 25 minutes.

615
00:44:54.719 --> 00:44:56.699
Yes, the Green Death being a perfect example.

616
00:44:56.760 --> 00:45:09.480
And also, given how little Robert Holmes actually cares about the plot, it's the fact that the radio telescope forms an integral part of the climax, and this is the same radio telescope that he wired up the bomb 2 in episode one to blow it up.

617
00:45:10.199 --> 00:45:12.000
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

618
00:45:12.059 --> 00:45:15.599
He was going to go and find another radio telescope after that one.

619
00:45:15.659 --> 00:45:16.980
There are loads of radio telescopes.

620
00:45:17.039 --> 00:45:19.500
Oh, there's another one lying down the road.

621
00:45:19.619 --> 00:45:26.519
It's interesting, Simon, that you mentioned the Terror of the Autons novelisation because when you read it, and I did a couple of years ago.

622
00:45:26.579 --> 00:45:27.239
I reread it.

623
00:45:27.300 --> 00:45:29.519
It feels much more like Spearhead from Space.

624
00:45:29.579 --> 00:45:40.440
And so there's something about the story that is not that far removed from the way that season 7 was telling stories, but it's the production that is giving it a really different feel.

625
00:45:41.340 --> 00:45:57.780
I think what's happening here too is a kind of microcosm of the entirety of the season because this is a season that has 5 stories and each story has the master with a plan that goes horribly wrong and he gets to feed it at the end.

626
00:45:57.840 --> 00:46:03.300
And so this kind of, this kind of collapses 5 of those into one, two, part story.

627
00:46:03.360 --> 00:46:08.760
And then we start to dole them out at the rate of one a month or so after this.

628
00:46:08.820 --> 00:46:10.679
It's a bit Scooby-too.

629
00:46:10.860 --> 00:46:13.320
And it is a strange choice.

630
00:46:13.380 --> 00:46:30.059
I mean, there's a sense in which we could go to the beginning of series 9 with Day of the Daleks and say, now we're doing another relaunch of the Pertu era, but one without the master, because this was something that couldn't have continued, could it?

631
00:46:30.239 --> 00:46:32.940
In terms of the master being in every story.

632
00:46:33.000 --> 00:46:33.599
Yeah, yeah.

633
00:46:33.659 --> 00:46:38.280
It is actually an interesting choice and it doesn't feel like a particularly necessary choice.

634
00:46:38.340 --> 00:46:41.639
I can understand him being in, say, 3 of the stories, but all five.

635
00:46:41.699 --> 00:46:45.539
And I know in Colony in space, he doesn't appear until sort of the 2nd half.

636
00:46:46.139 --> 00:46:48.539
But nevertheless, it is an interesting choice.

637
00:46:48.840 --> 00:47:04.860
It sort of makes sense in the fiction of the show that he gets stuck on Earth at the end of Terror of the Autons, and so he'll turn up in Mind of Evil and then Claws of Axos. weirder that he then just shows up in the 2nd half of Colony in Space and then turns up on Earth again in the demons.

638
00:47:05.159 --> 00:47:06.780
Yes, indeed.

639
00:47:16.679 --> 00:47:24.119
I want to sort of give a shout out to, you know, the story as it stands now, because, of course, you know, the original 625 line tapes are wiped.

640
00:47:24.179 --> 00:47:32.219
This wasn't part of those repeat seasons that we got in the very late 70s and into the 80s that it sort of became, it was part of what we talked about last week when Spearhead was changed.

641
00:47:32.280 --> 00:47:33.840
They said spearheads, Silurians.

642
00:47:33.900 --> 00:47:35.820
Then they showed this, if you remember Beta.

643
00:47:35.880 --> 00:47:38.579
And this, of course, like Salurians, was broadcast in black and white.

644
00:47:38.639 --> 00:47:47.340
Now, the problem, of course, with it being a film print, is that you've got a film tellersini of film that has been captured on video for the broadcast edit.

645
00:47:47.400 --> 00:47:50.280
So you've got everything that's an exterior shot.

646
00:47:50.340 --> 00:47:55.199
All the film sequences that have this odd jutter to it, and I'm afraid the Blu-ray restoration really suffers at this point.

647
00:47:55.260 --> 00:47:59.639
It's quite blurry and it's very unfortunate.

648
00:47:59.699 --> 00:48:02.760
Whereas the studio stuff looks spectacular.

649
00:48:02.820 --> 00:48:04.559
But does that tell us anything?

650
00:48:04.619 --> 00:48:14.639
But yeah, Peter, it's just that interesting thing that we had it in bits, like seeing Tear of the Ortons, and it was a crappy $16 film copy that was being brought.

651
00:48:14.699 --> 00:48:20.039
Yeah, but it was something magical about Silurians, and this was the 1st time I'd seen Doctor Who in black and white.

652
00:48:20.099 --> 00:48:23.280
I was so excited that they were showing black and white Doctor Who.

653
00:48:23.340 --> 00:48:29.400
Like, oh, my God, the door is open and now we're going to see all this other stuff becomes possible.

654
00:48:29.460 --> 00:48:31.380
Which we, in fact, did.

655
00:48:31.380 --> 00:48:34.920
Which we, in fact, did with a whole complete, complete pertway around minus invasion of the dinosaurs.

656
00:48:34.980 --> 00:48:35.519
That's right.

657
00:48:35.579 --> 00:48:40.559
And so we saw the we saw the black and white version of Terror of the Autons in 1984 and 1986.

658
00:48:40.860 --> 00:48:45.539
In 1986, it was part of the whole, the entire Pertwee era being repeated.

659
00:48:45.599 --> 00:48:49.500
In 1984, it was part of that mini season, do you remember?

660
00:48:49.559 --> 00:48:58.679
Assignment of Pertwe episodes, which was Spearhead from Space Silurians, Tear of the Autons, Cursipelodon, the Green Death, and the 5 part Invasion of the Dinosaurs.

661
00:48:58.739 --> 00:49:03.539
So it was just like this mini season of things, which had suddenly become for sale to the ABC.

662
00:49:03.599 --> 00:49:04.980
And so they just, they just took them.

663
00:49:04.980 --> 00:49:14.400
And it was interesting that we talked last week about Spearhead, often being at the start of a mini run of Pertwi, which was not the same stories in 1978, 79.

664
00:49:14.519 --> 00:49:15.719
So it felt like a start of the show.

665
00:49:15.780 --> 00:49:20.699
In 1984, we had Spearhead Silurians and then Terror of the Autons following each other.

666
00:49:20.760 --> 00:49:26.219
And so seeing spearhead and terror of the autons back to back, really informed both of them.

667
00:49:26.280 --> 00:49:29.579
You thought, oh, okay, you could see the similarities and the differences.

668
00:49:29.760 --> 00:49:35.940
But I also want to build on what you were saying there about terror of the autons being in black and white because it did help it.

669
00:49:36.059 --> 00:49:39.000
I think terror of the autons was not meant to be seen in colour.

670
00:49:39.059 --> 00:49:45.719
I know it was made in colour, but in 1971, less than 10% of the TV licenses in Britain were colour.

671
00:49:45.780 --> 00:49:46.980
Still only 10%.

672
00:49:47.039 --> 00:49:47.699
That's right.

673
00:49:47.760 --> 00:49:54.119
So 90% of the terrestrial audience and 100% of the international audience were watching it in black and white.

674
00:49:54.179 --> 00:49:58.800
And that's how the entire per era was seen by the majority of the audience.

675
00:49:58.860 --> 00:50:03.539
I don't think colour licenses outnumbered black and white in the UK until 1976.

676
00:50:03.780 --> 00:50:05.820
So that's the face of evil.

677
00:50:06.599 --> 00:50:20.880
So when we saw it on black and white, part of the effect was undeniably the film Telesini adding the grain, but it was not too far removed from watching it on a small screen black and white TV in 1971.

678
00:50:21.059 --> 00:50:27.480
So an image that now looks thin and cartoony on a digital flat screen just didn't back then.

679
00:50:27.480 --> 00:50:36.599
I think maybe most of the audience would have had trouble telling the visual style or the presentation of terror the autons apart from inferno or even spearhead.

680
00:50:36.659 --> 00:50:37.619
Exactly.

681
00:50:37.679 --> 00:50:39.420
And it certainly hides all the cromer key.

682
00:50:39.480 --> 00:50:40.260
Absolutely.

683
00:50:40.320 --> 00:50:42.300
That's the point I was going to make, Simon.

684
00:50:42.360 --> 00:50:43.860
I think that's the thing.

685
00:50:43.920 --> 00:50:50.099
Doctor Who was not made to be like most television in the 60s and 70s and even 80s was not made to be rewatched.

686
00:50:50.159 --> 00:50:54.059
It was made to be broadcast once, maybe repeated again.

687
00:50:54.119 --> 00:50:59.519
It was being made for a weekly time slot and was being pumped out as quickly as possible.

688
00:50:59.579 --> 00:51:03.719
And so I think they went, oh, we can make this in colour.

689
00:51:03.719 --> 00:51:06.599
And maybe it'll be broadcasting colour for some people.

690
00:51:06.780 --> 00:51:14.940
But the fact that it was broadcast in black and white actually forgives a lot of the failings of the production.

691
00:51:15.000 --> 00:51:17.940
On a small screen with imperfect reception.

692
00:51:18.000 --> 00:51:20.159
Yeah, yeah, yeah. in black and white.

693
00:51:20.219 --> 00:51:25.079
A lot of what we see is a production reboot, I think, is something that we can look at and see now.

694
00:51:25.139 --> 00:51:27.599
I don't think it was obvious to the audience at the time.

695
00:51:27.659 --> 00:51:28.619
Oh no, it wouldn't have been.

696
00:51:28.679 --> 00:51:28.920
No.

697
00:51:28.980 --> 00:51:35.099
I think though it does represent, though, a reassessment of where we were.

698
00:51:35.159 --> 00:51:40.139
Do we think that series 7 despite its undoubted popularity?

699
00:51:40.199 --> 00:51:47.519
Now, do we think that it was a blind alley that this was something that had to actually happen?

700
00:51:47.579 --> 00:51:49.139
I don't think it had to happen.

701
00:51:49.199 --> 00:51:50.159
I think is not quite right.

702
00:51:50.219 --> 00:51:56.460
I think because, I mean, I'll sort of slightly reiterate and expand on what I said last week about Spearhead Spearhead.

703
00:51:56.519 --> 00:51:59.159
I found back in that 1984 repeat run, Peter.

704
00:51:59.219 --> 00:52:03.840
Spearhead I found alienating, not because of the story or the content, but because of the way it was made.

705
00:52:03.900 --> 00:52:09.300
I felt the whole film, the I actually felt alienating. didn't feel like real Doctor Who. something bizarre about it.

706
00:52:09.360 --> 00:52:10.920
Salurians, completely on board.

707
00:52:10.980 --> 00:52:13.019
In fact, I was absolutely wrapped and still am.

708
00:52:13.079 --> 00:52:17.820
But when I saw that for the 1st time in 84 in black and white, I was absolutely wrapped in it.

709
00:52:17.880 --> 00:52:23.519
And I didn't see at the time a particular jump or change to tear of the autons.

710
00:52:23.579 --> 00:52:42.000
Yes, I think the relaunch such as it is is, yeah, the list short character we need to replace her with something which is a little bit more accessible for the kiddies, a little bit more of a sort of a younger person, so that they can ask, you know, as in fact, they almost kind of, it's a bit meta when the brigadier actually says what you need, doctor, of someone who can hand you your test tubes and say how brilliant you are.

711
00:52:42.059 --> 00:52:44.760
I mean, that is actually the, that is Barrel Letts and Terence Dick speaking there.

712
00:52:44.820 --> 00:52:45.480
Yeah.

713
00:52:45.480 --> 00:52:50.639
I think season 7 is still in 86 when we saw all 4 of the stories here.

714
00:52:50.699 --> 00:52:52.079
I loved them all.

715
00:52:52.139 --> 00:52:54.119
I mean, I'm what, 14 at the time.

716
00:52:54.179 --> 00:52:56.699
Maybe that's the audience that they were trying to go for.

717
00:52:56.760 --> 00:53:02.219
So I was probably the perfect age to be watching all those stories, particularly things like ambassadors and Inferno.

718
00:53:02.280 --> 00:53:09.059
But look, I think they just decide to slightly tweak the direction. not a wholesale change of direction.

719
00:53:09.119 --> 00:53:11.219
Yeah, I don't think it's a blind alley.

720
00:53:11.280 --> 00:53:14.699
I think it's, we've retooled the show, a lot of it worked quite well.

721
00:53:14.760 --> 00:53:22.860
You know, the unit supporting cast is a good idea. within the structure, but there were some things that it didn't quite work.

722
00:53:22.920 --> 00:53:24.119
It's not a blind alley.

723
00:53:24.179 --> 00:53:28.739
It's just that they're retooling the things that they thought did not work from the previous season.

724
00:53:28.800 --> 00:53:31.199
It's not a wholesale reboot.

725
00:53:31.260 --> 00:53:32.699
It's a jushing up.

726
00:53:32.760 --> 00:53:36.719
But it's also the concept, the concepts of season 7 are a little bit more highbrow.

727
00:53:36.780 --> 00:53:37.980
They are a little bit more intellectual.

728
00:53:38.039 --> 00:53:40.260
They're a little bit more kind of esoteric.

729
00:53:40.380 --> 00:53:41.699
When season eight.

730
00:53:41.760 --> 00:53:43.980
They're a bit more, you know, basic base level.

731
00:53:44.039 --> 00:53:44.820
Yes, yes.

732
00:53:44.880 --> 00:53:48.119
As however, reboots are softer edged than we think that they are.

733
00:53:48.179 --> 00:53:54.480
And so Spearhead from Space, I don't think should actually be compared to anything because it is its own individual entity.

734
00:53:54.539 --> 00:53:58.320
The series does not take its cue from spearhead from space going forwards.

735
00:53:58.440 --> 00:54:06.300
And so actually, it's more instructive to compare, say, the Silurians to terror of the autons, which, you know, the differences are softer.

736
00:54:06.360 --> 00:54:10.320
But also, as you go forward, the series isn't terror of the autons from now on.

737
00:54:10.380 --> 00:54:12.420
There are stories that are like terror of the autons.

738
00:54:12.539 --> 00:54:16.739
Claws of Axos, as we've discussed, are quite similar in style and presentation.

739
00:54:16.860 --> 00:54:22.860
But then you look at the mind of evil, and the mind of evil is very similar to Inferno, and ambassadors of death.

740
00:54:22.920 --> 00:54:23.639
Yeah.

741
00:54:23.639 --> 00:54:31.739
And ambassadors of death, I would say, is actually a more illustrative example of season 7 than Spearhead from Spaces.

742
00:54:31.800 --> 00:54:39.960
And terror of the autons is clearly different from ambassadors of death in its presentation because ambassadors still feels like a film series.

743
00:54:40.019 --> 00:54:45.000
Some of it's shot in the studio, but it's mounted and moves like a film series.

744
00:54:45.059 --> 00:54:46.500
Terror of the autons doesn't.

745
00:54:46.559 --> 00:54:51.179
Terror of the autons is in many ways back to what we got in the 1960s.

746
00:54:51.239 --> 00:54:56.880
It's a studio-based program, which studio-based cutting and location inserts.

747
00:54:56.940 --> 00:54:58.800
And so I think that was always going to happen.

748
00:54:59.280 --> 00:55:10.739
See, again, the 1st time round on Flight Through Entirety, I actually found myself liking each story of series 7 less than the previous one.

749
00:55:10.800 --> 00:55:13.679
That's obviously madness, Nathan.

750
00:55:13.739 --> 00:55:15.000
Yes, evidently.

751
00:55:15.059 --> 00:55:28.199
And I think part of the thing is that we exile the doctor to earth and he spends all of his time in space bases and establishments and stuff that bear no resemblance to anything that we have ever seen.

752
00:55:28.260 --> 00:55:38.460
And each story is more heavily based on the scientific research institution that it set in.

753
00:55:38.579 --> 00:55:43.739
We occasionally get to escape from the caves in the Silurians.

754
00:55:43.800 --> 00:55:45.719
We get to go to Dr. Quinn's cottage or whatever.

755
00:55:45.780 --> 00:55:49.019
But we don't get to do that in Inferno, for instance.

756
00:55:49.079 --> 00:56:03.719
So here, in a way, we're laying our cards on the table and saying it's the Beacon Hill radio telescope and here we are again, but we're also in a circus in Tarminstar, and we're also in Mrs. Farrell's CSO kitchen.

757
00:56:03.840 --> 00:56:08.159
And so I think that we did need to do that.

758
00:56:08.219 --> 00:56:11.039
I think we also needed to go back into space.

759
00:56:11.099 --> 00:56:16.679
I think it was a baffling decision to have a year of Doctor Who, where he never leaves the planet.

760
00:56:16.679 --> 00:56:22.619
And now that we have the time lords back, We're able to do that twice a year, I think, from now.

761
00:56:22.679 --> 00:56:24.119
You mean like 2005?

762
00:56:24.179 --> 00:56:30.780
But 2005 goes into the past and it goes off, you know, into orbit and stuff like that.

763
00:56:30.840 --> 00:56:32.159
It is a much, much better.

764
00:56:32.159 --> 00:56:33.900
Well, the doctor goes into orbit in Ambassadors of Dead.

765
00:56:33.960 --> 00:56:34.619
Well, that is.

766
00:56:34.980 --> 00:56:37.320
I don't think it's a baffling decision.

767
00:56:37.380 --> 00:56:43.079
I think it goes back to what you were saying about season 5 earlier about the fact that it's, you know, it's kind of a retooling of the same fundamental story.

768
00:56:43.199 --> 00:56:50.940
I think they're basically, they're taking away the thing that might make it look like a staggering coincidence that they're always saying in 20th century.

769
00:56:51.000 --> 00:56:55.320
So, you know, inferno is for you from the deep in terms of view from the deep is not set.

770
00:56:55.380 --> 00:56:59.460
I mean, set the not too distant future, I guess, but also few from the deep is set in, not in the real world.

771
00:56:59.519 --> 00:57:02.639
Even though it's notionally present day or shortly after the present day.

772
00:57:02.699 --> 00:57:05.400
And there's always a certain amount of course correction that goes on.

773
00:57:05.460 --> 00:57:10.739
Like nothing, nothing is ever a definitive reboot, which the series then takes its cue from.

774
00:57:10.800 --> 00:57:21.780
So you have season 7 and then they tinker with that and go off in a new direction season eight, they then tinker with that and move back because in both instances, they've gone too far in one direction.

775
00:57:21.840 --> 00:57:31.260
So I would argue that the real format for the series going forward, in the way that it's shot and the way that it feels, the way that it's put together is Day of the Daleks.

776
00:57:31.380 --> 00:57:32.519
Absolutely.

777
00:57:32.579 --> 00:57:38.280
David Daleks is when they've completely worked out what the show is going to look like, and I think that's the template that's used.

778
00:57:38.280 --> 00:57:42.360
And sound like you're quite correct, yes, that mention of the incidental score.

779
00:57:42.480 --> 00:57:48.119
It's also where Dudley starts to become more samey, and I think that becomes his downfall, ultimately.

780
00:57:54.300 --> 00:58:16.260
Can we finish by talking about the one thing that is established here that is still in play in the series as it's being made now, and that is the one doctor and a female companion, and that female companion role is created by Katie Manning.

781
00:58:16.320 --> 00:58:21.059
And she decides, as we've said before, to play it a bit big.

782
00:58:21.119 --> 00:58:23.519
She's doing children's TV acting.

783
00:58:23.579 --> 00:58:27.480
She's young, you know, as a person, but she's also bigging it up.

784
00:58:27.539 --> 00:58:39.659
And I think that she's terribly underserved by the, you just need someone to pass... because she is incredibly competent.

785
00:58:39.719 --> 00:58:40.500
Absolutely.

786
00:58:40.500 --> 00:58:50.880
And I think that her reaction to being discovered in the plastics factory at the end of episode one is just so wonderful.

787
00:58:50.940 --> 00:58:53.400
She is so magnificent.

788
00:58:53.460 --> 00:58:55.139
She's great on the phone.

789
00:58:55.199 --> 00:59:04.380
You know, she starts to get a little bit annoyed as she's being dismissed by people and there's even something in episode 2 where she says, oh, you know, just pretend I'm not here.

790
00:59:04.440 --> 00:59:06.179
And that doesn't really go anywhere.

791
00:59:06.239 --> 00:59:12.900
But there's that terrific exchange with her and Mike where Mike says, I'll just stay here and stay out of the way.

792
00:59:12.960 --> 00:59:16.619
And, you know, she's being told, no, you can't go up the radio telescope.

793
00:59:16.679 --> 00:59:17.519
No, you can't go here.

794
00:59:17.579 --> 00:59:18.300
You can't do anything.

795
00:59:18.360 --> 00:59:21.059
Just say I'm like, Yates is the one who's being sent to make the coffee.

796
00:59:21.119 --> 00:59:22.500
Yeah, yeah.

797
00:59:22.500 --> 00:59:25.679
But she just smiles and says, oh, yes, of course, I'll do that.

798
00:59:25.739 --> 00:59:27.119
And then nicks off anyway.

799
00:59:27.179 --> 00:59:29.699
Yeah, but she gets to save the doctor.

800
00:59:29.760 --> 00:59:42.960
And there's one moment which has never made me laugh out loud before, but really, really, I think, lands perfectly, which is where the doctor says, if only esque apology had been included in your course.

801
00:59:42.960 --> 00:59:45.360
And she says, funny you should say that.

802
00:59:45.420 --> 00:59:48.300
And just produces her hands and waves her fingers.

803
00:59:48.780 --> 00:59:54.539
It's so funny, it's so perfect, and it is her absolutely landing as a worthy companion.

804
00:59:54.599 --> 00:59:54.780
Exactly.

805
00:59:54.840 --> 00:59:58.920
But she also acts as this really efficient and competent executive assistant to him.

806
00:59:58.920 --> 01:00:00.539
Like, she looks at the plastic factory.

807
01:00:00.599 --> 01:00:04.860
She goes and orders stuff from requisition and say, oh, this stuff's gonna take a while. sack her.

808
01:00:04.920 --> 01:00:05.579
Yes, yes.

809
01:00:05.579 --> 01:00:07.559
She's super enthusiastic.

810
01:00:07.559 --> 01:00:09.420
All these things that would have been beneath Liz Shaw.

811
01:00:09.480 --> 01:00:10.380
Yeah.

812
01:00:10.440 --> 01:00:14.639
She she schmoozes with Mr. Campbell in order to get the equipment, you know.

813
01:00:14.639 --> 01:00:16.800
Yes, in time and quicker, you know.

814
01:00:16.800 --> 01:00:18.840
That is her back and her eyelashes.

815
01:00:18.840 --> 01:00:20.039
Mrs. Farrell as well.

816
01:00:20.099 --> 01:00:20.519
Exactly.

817
01:00:20.579 --> 01:00:21.539
She can do it all.

818
01:00:21.599 --> 01:00:27.119
But the funny thing is too, is she's the only instance, and even Liz doesn't get this, and Sarah Jane certainly doesn't get this.

819
01:00:27.179 --> 01:00:31.800
She's actually effectively had to apply for the job of the companion.

820
01:00:31.860 --> 01:00:32.639
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

821
01:00:32.639 --> 01:00:34.079
She's actually, I'm your new assistant.

822
01:00:34.139 --> 01:00:34.980
Like I've just got this job.

823
01:00:35.039 --> 01:00:37.440
I've got the, it's that sort of meta thing.

824
01:00:37.500 --> 01:00:40.800
Like she's big cars, but also the character has to apply for the position.

825
01:00:40.860 --> 01:00:42.840
She had to prove she could trip over on cue.

826
01:00:42.900 --> 01:00:44.460
Yes, yes.

827
01:00:44.519 --> 01:00:48.539
I think also it's doing a slight disservice to Casey, man, to say that she's doing children's TV acting.

828
01:00:48.599 --> 01:00:53.940
I mean, I think she's doing slightly heightened acting, but the fact is, and it's the...

829
01:00:54.000 --> 01:00:55.739
It's the thing that makes her Exactly.

830
01:00:55.800 --> 01:01:00.719
And it's the thing that makes her very effective in close-up is that she has a wide muppety face.

831
01:01:00.780 --> 01:01:03.059
And so does John Pertwee.

832
01:01:03.059 --> 01:01:05.880
And actually, it was...

833
01:01:05.940 --> 01:01:06.719
Well, exactly.

834
01:01:06.719 --> 01:01:10.019
It's the thing that works for good Doctor Who actors.

835
01:01:10.079 --> 01:01:12.300
She has a very expressive facing close-up.

836
01:01:12.360 --> 01:01:19.559
And, you know, from her long association with Australia, and our long association with her, sort of on a semi-personal level.

837
01:01:19.619 --> 01:01:24.960
She is perhaps the most gorgeous person to play a companion as well.

838
01:01:25.019 --> 01:01:27.840
Bleeds out the screen, doesn't It bleeds out of the screen.

839
01:01:27.900 --> 01:01:28.980
It is infectious.

840
01:01:29.039 --> 01:01:32.400
She's such a wonderful person and she brings that into the role.

841
01:01:32.460 --> 01:01:37.079
And people who can't see. how great Joe is, I think they're not looking at the right things.

842
01:01:37.139 --> 01:01:38.099
Exactly.

843
01:01:38.219 --> 01:01:41.519
Oh, I think, you know, no Joe, no Sarah Jane.

844
01:01:41.579 --> 01:01:43.139
I think is absolutely...

845
01:01:43.320 --> 01:01:51.539
There's a more direct line between Joe and say Rose than there is between Sarah and Rose.

846
01:01:51.599 --> 01:01:55.679
Well, but it's interesting what you said, Nathan, is that Joe is actually the template. of the female campaigns.

847
01:01:55.739 --> 01:01:57.719
We've never had the doctor and female companion before.

848
01:01:57.780 --> 01:02:03.599
None of the female companions who've shared the screen with a male companion at the last the previous 7 years.

849
01:02:03.659 --> 01:02:13.380
Joe is the template that we use now moving forward and everyone else is some kind of deviation or a reaction against, but nevertheless, it all comes back to this is how it's done.

850
01:02:13.559 --> 01:02:17.219
We've had characters and actresses in the past who could have done it.

851
01:02:17.280 --> 01:02:19.619
So if you'd had Wendy Padbury continuing on.

852
01:02:19.679 --> 01:02:33.360
You could easily see her having the same kind of relationship and warmth with John Pertweese doctor that Joe Grant does, but it's the 1st time that the companion is ever placed on an equal standing with the doctor in the action.

853
01:02:33.420 --> 01:02:37.500
It's the doctor and his companion rather than the doctor with his companions.

854
01:02:59.039 --> 01:03:02.519
Well, that's all the time we have for this week.

855
01:03:02.639 --> 01:03:13.980
We'll be back again next week, after jumping ahead about 35 years, to see what happens when a new doctor makes our show an unmissable Yuletide event in the Christmas invasion.

856
01:03:14.039 --> 01:03:32.699
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts, and you can keep up with us on our website, 500yearDiary.com, where you'll find our social media links as well as links to all of our other podcasts, including our other Doctor Who podcasts, Flight Through Entirety, and the 2nd great and Bountiful Human Empire.

857
01:03:32.940 --> 01:03:39.360
Until next time, let's be grateful that there aren't any Doctor Who aliens with a natural affinity for latex.

858
01:03:39.420 --> 01:03:41.880
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

859
01:03:41.940 --> 01:03:43.139
Ta-ta.

860
01:03:43.199 --> 01:03:43.980
Bye for now.

861
01:03:44.039 --> 01:03:44.940
See you later.

862
01:03:57.000 --> 01:04:01.980
That was 500 year diary, starring Nathan Bottomley, Peter Griffith, Simon Moore, and James Selwood.

863
01:04:02.039 --> 01:04:04.619
The theme was composed by Cameron Lamb.

864
01:04:04.679 --> 01:04:11.699
This episode, Establishment Drag, was recorded on the 17th of March 2024 and released on the 28th of April.

865
01:04:11.760 --> 01:04:19.619
Here at 500 year diary, we would like to apologise for the levity with which we treated the death of Mr. McDermott in this episode.

866
01:04:19.679 --> 01:04:31.019
Sofas continue to be one of the leading causes of death in the Western world, whether through falling accidents, ingestion, or just lying on the damn things, eating a whole bunch of crisps.

867
01:04:31.079 --> 01:04:32.639
Be careful out there.

868
01:04:41.760 --> 01:04:45.840
Okay, this is the stupidest dad joke I've ever done.

869
01:04:45.900 --> 01:04:47.159
Just wait.

870
01:04:47.219 --> 01:04:48.059
Let's see if we can beat.

871
01:04:48.119 --> 01:04:49.079
Okay.

872
01:04:49.559 --> 01:04:53.940
Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to 500 year diary.

873
01:04:54.000 --> 01:05:03.119
The only Doctor Who podcast disappointed that this story has so little to say about the winemaking environment on the nesting protein planets.

874
01:05:04.800 --> 01:05:07.920
It's not terroir of the...

875
01:05:07.920 --> 01:05:12.420
Sorry.

876
01:05:13.260 --> 01:05:17.280
That's probably one of the most middle-class jokes I've ever told them.

877
01:05:17.340 --> 01:05:18.420
Go well.

878
01:05:18.420 --> 01:05:19.380
Even I didn't get that.

879
01:05:19.380 --> 01:05:21.719
It's a very middle class podcast.

880
01:05:21.840 --> 01:05:23.820
I'm the most middle class person.

881
01:05:24.780 --> 01:05:28.739
I just said this podcast we've already done 3 episodes.

882
01:05:28.800 --> 01:05:29.159
Yep.

883
01:05:29.219 --> 01:05:30.179
All right.

884
01:05:30.239 --> 01:05:32.760
Yeah, 1971 was more of a table wine year.

885
01:05:34.019 --> 01:05:36.239
More of a...

886
01:05:36.239 --> 01:05:38.639
I wouldn't say that people understand the joke, that electrical attack.

887
01:05:38.699 --> 01:05:40.800
Best thing about the 70s is the pair of us, Peter.

888
01:05:40.980 --> 01:05:48.300
That's right It's the 2nd of January 1971.