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This transcript was created on 2026-05-03 at 08:35:53

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to 500 year diary.

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The only Doctor Who podcast disappointed that this story has so

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little to say about the winemaking environment on the nesting

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protein planets.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm James.

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I'm Peter.

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I'm Simon.

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It's the 2nd of January 1971.

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Just shy of a year ago.

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We saw Doctor Who relaunched and retooled with a new Time Lord, a

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new setting, new regulars, and an entirely new world for them all

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to happen in.

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But tonight, to our surprise, We're seeing exactly the same thing

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happening again.

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Let's see if anyone can tell us what the hell is going on in

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terror of the autumns.

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So last week, we introduced a new timeline in the form of John

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Pertuy as Doctor Who.

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This week, and in the 1st episode, we actually introduced two new

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Time Lords, and we introduced the Master very, very quickly, I

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think.

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The 1st scene.

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I never got that Joe was a timelord.

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Sorry.

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It is really, really quite quick, and it took us quite a long time

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to get to John Pertwe last time, but we're straight in with the

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master just immediately, aren't we?

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Yes, there are certain aspects of this opening that I almost feel

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like they wanted us to feel like we'd arrived in the middle of

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something rather than this was the beginning of a new season.

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This could so easily be the 2nd master story, the way he just

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appears straight off the get go.

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You know, Captain Yates is referred to as having cleaned up from

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the Nestine's last time.

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So it's almost like, well, actually, was he in last year?

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I can't remember.

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I like it.

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I think it's great I mean, we get this introduction.

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We get him sort of establishing who he is and what he's like.

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Then he goes off and commits his 1st crime.

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And then only then do we actually see what's going on elsewhere?

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Yes.

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I think it's the beginning of this story that gives rise to the

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tale we get that John Pertwee felt threatened by Roger Delgado.

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It's not the fact that Roger Delgado is really good, which he is.

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It's his primacy in the storytelling.

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And right from the start, we go in on the master rather than the

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doctor.

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And then we cut back to the doctor in the unit headquarters, just

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faffing around and doing his doctor-ish things.

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I think maybe that's what it was.

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You made a point in the original run of FTE, Nathan, about how

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Roger Delgado immediately appears in the show and is at risk of

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becoming the lead because he's more fun and just sort of injects

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so much energy into it and it risks becoming a show about the

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master rather than the doctor.

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I mean, one thing that we know about Time Lords is that a Time

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Lord can be the star of Doctor Who.

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And so it's always the threat that the master poses.

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And I think when they bring the master back for the new series

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with a clear idea of his role in the narrative, that is the thing

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that definitely happens and it does happen in series 3.

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I think it happens in basically every scene that Missy is in.

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And also, I think, you know, Sasha Dawan is a more lively figure

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and Chibnall seems to put a lot more effort into his dialogue than

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I'm afraid the doctor is, I think, by that point.

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Well, evil characters are always going to be much more interesting

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to write and certainly much more interesting to play.

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Yeah, yeah.

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I mean, he is, I think we said in FDE, he's pertwe only foreign.

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But her twee is foreign.

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It's in Pertuia French.

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Yeah, a twist to Lalabo.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Well, I mean, we alluded to this a little bit last week and we'll

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get there a little bit later, but this is the episode where Pertry

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is kind of reanalysed as a member of the ruling class.

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And it isn't just his interaction with Mr. Brown Rose from the

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ministry.

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It is just generally the way that he kind of comports himself and

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behaves the dismissive way that he reacts to Joe's arrive.

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And also the way that he steals other characters' dialogue for the

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1st time.

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It's really weird.

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There's a whole sequence where he basically takes Mark Yeats's

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dialogue about you thought that you couldn't be hypnotised

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whatever the full line is.

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Like, it's quite clear that Richard Franklin is about to deliver a

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line.

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And then John Pertby kind of breathlessly chops him off.

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It actually happens a couple of times in the story, and I think

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it's the doctor doing doctor-ish things, but it's quite weird.

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It doesn't really happen again.

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There's something actually interesting from one of the Blu-ray

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behind the sofas, and I can't recall exactly what season or what

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story it was in, but Davidson is watching it, and he makes an

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observation on Pertwee's performance that he felt it's not as

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light as it should be.

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It's not as a doctor.

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And I thought that was actually interesting. not something I

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completely agreed with, I have to say, but it's just given the

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conversation we just had.

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It's an interesting observation for Davidson to have made.

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Is the Paul Cornell review, is it about Terror of the Autons?

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It is.

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It came from the feeling in fandom, in the 90s, where they had a

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revisionist idea of the poet era, which had been held up as the

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most amazing doctor who ever throughout the 1980s, where they

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thought, let's revise it, and let's talk about how crap this is.

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And Paul Cornell led that with his review of Terror of the Autons

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which basically, and comically, said that it was absolute rubbish

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and pointed out in all the ways that it was.

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And I think a lot of that lingers, like the Jeremy Bentham reviews

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from things like a celebration, set fandom's ideas.

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I think Paul Cornell's review of this story is actually

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responsible for a lot of tropes of the Pertwee era, which don't

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necessarily exist outside of this story.

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So it's espousing received fan wisdom.

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Yeah.

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Well, I mean, he ends that saying, you know, the time lords exile

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the doctor to earth, and make him a Tory.

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And I think that's not fair, but they do actually make him kind of

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you know, a patrician authority figure in a way that he hadn't

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been since Hartnall.

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And even Hartnell isn't a very good patrician authority figure

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because he's naughty and a little bit ramshackle and a little bit

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chill.

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And do you remember Tom's description of John Pertwe, you know

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where he's like a lap poster?

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He's like a light bulb.

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Tall light bulb?

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Yes, yes, yes, yes.

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And so kind of twinkles.

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And so he is patrician in a way that even Capoldi, I think, doesn't

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manage.

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Like, he he is that.

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But I don't think necessarily that that's a problem, although he

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is a little bit more unpleasant to people, I think, in this story

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than...

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I think what it comes down to is that he's pro-establishment per

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se, if that's where the critique of him being a Tory is coming

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from.

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It's not so much that he's pro-establishment, but he's portrayed

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as being of the establishment.

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But at the same time, he's anti-establishment because, you know, he

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does keep talking about the military mind and in one story is no

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one capable of thinking on their own and so on like that.

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He's very sceptical of that kind of authority.

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However, he loves the trappings of the aristocracy, if I could

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right. and that is that is the 3rd doctor through and through.

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Look, the way he dresses.

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Exactly, yeah.

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Yeah, you could say he queers establishment in a way.

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Well, because he's wearing the fluffy out.

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Yes, there's an Oscar Wildness.

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There's a sense of the wildness.

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Yeah, that's what I meant.

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Yeah.

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Because I think that the, that scene, that particular scene where

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he says quite the wrong sort of chat is coming into a rat.

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And that's really super unpleasant. think that there's any way of

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making that likeable.

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But we also...

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We all have that thought about government departments.

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I don't know whether we would put it in quite that way.

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I couldn't possibly comment.

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James, you've always been the wrong kind in James.

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But what we do get is we get to see him interacting with another

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time, Lord, for the 1st time on the same level.

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So we had the time meddler, obviously, and that's sort of a little

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bit different.

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And then we had the tribunal, which is what they're called here, I

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think.

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And he is scared of them, you know, Trout and sort of scared of

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them in a way, and he certainly has to do what they say.

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But then we just get this guy.

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And would you believe that he has a name in the wider fandom and

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it is Wait for it, Adelphi.

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I know, Adelphi space name.

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And he's absolutely Sir Frank or like Herbert.

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Yes, yes.

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Or something like that.

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Like he's like, it's so stupid.

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Delphi to Verat Rolunda.

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He's a pre-regeneration terrible Zodin is what he is.

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But there again, he's a man from the ministry.

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He looks like he's like the head of a government department

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doesn't he?

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He's sort of quite natalie dressed.

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He's got the bowl.

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He's got an umbrella and stuff.

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And he speaks very poshly.

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And we talk.

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He definitely went to the right kind of school.

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Well, and that's what we talk about.

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We do talk about his degree in the academy, perjury's degree.

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All of that kind of thing is all sort of expressed in these upper

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class terms.

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So when Holmes gets hold of the time laws and finally gets to

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present them in the way that he wants.

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That's what they all are, aren't they?

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They're all sort of ineffectual old upperclass men in sort of

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Oxford colleges or whatever.

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Here, it's the civil service, but it's a sort of very similar

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thing.

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But you see, the 3rd doctor is new money.

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The 3rd doctor aspires to all that kind of trappings of

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aristocracy, but is not part of it.

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No, he's not new money. old money.

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In what way?

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I think he's the 3rd son of an aristocrat.

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So basically he's not inheriting the timeline.

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I see you mean old money with no money.

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Yes, yes, exactly.

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That's a standard trope.

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I mean, yes. sort of English, exactly.

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He's away with 3rd son.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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What the doctor is.

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What he's always been and what the 3rd doctor is is a hater of

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bureaucracy.

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Exactly.

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And that's what he's talking about with the wrong sort of chap is

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creeping into the department.

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It's those people who are just kind of time servers.

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They're not there to actually achieve anything, they're just there

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to hold the positions.

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And that's your kind of exactly, Mr. Chin, that you get in a

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couple of stories time.

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But it's also the whole way that the civil service is portrayed

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throughout the 70s, which then, of course, leads to programs like

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yes, Minister, yes, Prime Minister.

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The civil service in the modern era in all the public service, as

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you'd now call it, does not reflect that sort of 70s, you know, the

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ends, there is no ends in administration only means, you know, kind

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of Humphreyism.

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Yeah, I mean, part of the thing is for us as Doctor Who fans

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looking back at Doctor Who in the 60s, we get this experience of

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our favourite TV show being made by that system.

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Exactly.

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You know, very much in sort of memos and all of that kind of thing

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program prevention offices.

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The memos exist, the episodes don't.

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But also that is Holmes's conception of the doctor, isn't it?

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But the enemies of the doctor are bureaucrats and they're rule

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bound.

249
00:12:15.960 --> 00:12:18.059
And you see it in the valleyard, I think.

250
00:12:18.120 --> 00:12:19.799
But you do see...

251
00:12:19.799 --> 00:12:21.720
Sunmakers, absolutely, all the way through.

252
00:12:21.779 --> 00:12:25.080
Yeah, not necessarily enemies, just people he doesn't like.

253
00:12:25.200 --> 00:12:26.100
Yeah, yeah.

254
00:12:26.159 --> 00:12:30.419
What I think is the best story of this era is kind of of

255
00:12:30.419 --> 00:12:31.080
monsters.

256
00:12:31.080 --> 00:12:35.340
And that has things to say about class while very loudly saying

257
00:12:35.340 --> 00:12:37.019
that it's nothing political.

258
00:12:37.500 --> 00:12:44.639
But those people, the gray-faced men of interminor are all just

259
00:12:44.639 --> 00:12:48.480
civil servants, having discussions and they're the doctor's

260
00:12:48.480 --> 00:12:52.440
adversary there who he's contrasted with and up against.

261
00:12:52.500 --> 00:12:56.159
But it's not very much like that in series 7.

262
00:12:56.220 --> 00:13:00.240
No, the doctor's more of an equal opportunist rude person in

263
00:13:00.240 --> 00:13:01.320
season seven.

264
00:13:01.379 --> 00:13:04.379
And so he'll turn up in sort of the space command centre in

265
00:13:04.379 --> 00:13:09.120
ambassadors of death and just be rude to the command there just

266
00:13:09.120 --> 00:13:09.779
because.

267
00:13:09.840 --> 00:13:13.019
Whereas I think terror of the autons distils it into, he's rude to

268
00:13:13.019 --> 00:13:13.799
the right kinds of people.

269
00:13:13.860 --> 00:13:15.539
Yeah, yes.

270
00:13:15.600 --> 00:13:18.779
But, I mean, the class thing is sort of different and the time

271
00:13:18.779 --> 00:13:19.440
lords, I think.

272
00:13:19.559 --> 00:13:21.000
We have the time lords back.

273
00:13:21.059 --> 00:13:24.779
And it's kind of interesting that the time loads are introduced at

274
00:13:24.779 --> 00:13:26.220
the end of series 6.

275
00:13:26.279 --> 00:13:31.799
They're in some senses responsible for the premise of series 7, but

276
00:13:31.799 --> 00:13:35.639
they don't really get talked about, and now they're back, and

277
00:13:35.639 --> 00:13:38.580
they're back on the table, and they will be back this season.

278
00:13:38.639 --> 00:13:42.179
Look, they're just back to give us a kick along to just introduce

279
00:13:42.179 --> 00:13:43.019
who the master is.

280
00:13:43.080 --> 00:13:44.700
He's one of the doctor's own race.

281
00:13:44.759 --> 00:13:45.779
The end.

282
00:13:45.840 --> 00:13:47.159
Oh, I suppose actually...

283
00:13:47.159 --> 00:13:48.720
Yeah, no, he's back in colony instead, of course.

284
00:13:48.779 --> 00:13:50.580
They mentioned frequently in the claws of Axos.

285
00:13:50.639 --> 00:13:53.639
They're kind of used to kind of motivate the story or to create

286
00:13:53.639 --> 00:13:54.419
the premise.

287
00:13:54.480 --> 00:13:56.399
The way that the exile is.

288
00:13:56.460 --> 00:13:58.740
And we don't see them that much.

289
00:13:58.799 --> 00:14:02.940
We don't see them that much, but it's surprising that this big

290
00:14:02.940 --> 00:14:08.700
kind of development disappears for a year, more or less, and then

291
00:14:08.700 --> 00:14:11.700
they're starting to say, all right, we can incorporate the time

292
00:14:11.700 --> 00:14:16.139
lords into the show sort of more regularly into the premise.

293
00:14:28.200 --> 00:14:30.600
So the other thing that we did last year, of course, was

294
00:14:30.600 --> 00:14:35.700
introduced to new regular characters, the brigadier, who was a

295
00:14:35.700 --> 00:14:41.279
character, but not a regular, and Liz Shaw, now we introduce quite

296
00:14:41.279 --> 00:14:44.340
a stable of new regular characters.

297
00:14:44.460 --> 00:14:47.580
They've kind of come in dribs and drabs, haven't they?

298
00:14:47.639 --> 00:14:50.580
I mean, you get the brigadier first, then you get, well, bent and

299
00:14:50.580 --> 00:14:53.399
returning from his appearance in the invasion, and then you get

300
00:14:53.399 --> 00:14:56.100
Mikey Yates because you've had a kind of a succession of, you know

301
00:14:56.100 --> 00:14:57.360
ancillary other...

302
00:14:57.419 --> 00:14:59.340
I mean, Benton was in ambassadors in Inferno.

303
00:14:59.399 --> 00:15:00.299
Oh, yes, that's what I'm saying.

304
00:15:00.360 --> 00:15:01.379
You get Benson in Inferno.

305
00:15:01.440 --> 00:15:03.539
More so, in fact, a little bit in ambassadors, but mainly

306
00:15:03.539 --> 00:15:04.080
inferno.

307
00:15:04.139 --> 00:15:07.139
So he kind of slides in and then you get sort of Mikey Yates being

308
00:15:07.139 --> 00:15:10.320
introduced. as I sort of tried to say before, they're kind of

309
00:15:10.320 --> 00:15:12.419
introduced as if they've already been there, we just haven't seen

310
00:15:12.419 --> 00:15:12.720
them.

311
00:15:12.779 --> 00:15:16.320
I didn't know as a child that this was Mike Yates's 1st story.

312
00:15:16.379 --> 00:15:18.059
I just, you just assume that he's there.

313
00:15:18.120 --> 00:15:20.039
You 2 assume that he's there from the beginning, don't you?

314
00:15:20.100 --> 00:15:24.120
I actually had an impression before watching Spearhead in

315
00:15:24.120 --> 00:15:27.480
preparation for watching this, that he was in Spearhead.

316
00:15:28.799 --> 00:15:30.600
No, no, no, no, Yates.

317
00:15:30.659 --> 00:15:34.200
Because I hadn't watched it in a decade and I was misremembering

318
00:15:34.200 --> 00:15:35.519
him being...

319
00:15:35.580 --> 00:15:37.679
You don't want to miss out on Captain Monroe or Paul Darrow.

320
00:15:37.799 --> 00:15:39.480
Well exactly.

321
00:15:39.539 --> 00:15:42.120
Actually, I actually don't think it makes a whole lot of

322
00:15:42.120 --> 00:15:44.820
difference that they're introducing a new character in Captain

323
00:15:44.820 --> 00:15:47.639
Yeats because there's always been that captain character.

324
00:15:47.700 --> 00:15:51.600
And actually the 3 that we've had so far, Captain Turner in the

325
00:15:51.600 --> 00:15:55.620
Invasion, Captain Monroe in Spearhead and then Captain Paul Darrow

326
00:15:55.620 --> 00:15:57.419
in the Siberia.

327
00:15:57.480 --> 00:15:58.019
Hawkins.

328
00:15:58.019 --> 00:15:58.740
Hawkins.

329
00:15:58.799 --> 00:16:03.899
Yes, yes, yes. are actually all better characters than Mike

330
00:16:03.899 --> 00:16:04.320
Yates.

331
00:16:04.379 --> 00:16:07.080
I agree with that. and played better.

332
00:16:07.500 --> 00:16:08.399
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

333
00:16:08.460 --> 00:16:09.720
And they're played by better actors.

334
00:16:09.779 --> 00:16:11.220
So, I mean, that's a thing.

335
00:16:11.279 --> 00:16:13.320
I think you're just meant to think that this is the latest

336
00:16:13.320 --> 00:16:17.100
iteration of the unit 2nd in command and it could be different

337
00:16:17.100 --> 00:16:19.740
next week, but for some happy reason, it's not.

338
00:16:19.980 --> 00:16:24.899
Yeah, I mean, by the time we hit the end of this season, we really

339
00:16:24.899 --> 00:16:29.340
do have a proper stable of regulars and Mike gets to do things

340
00:16:29.340 --> 00:16:32.940
that are Mike things rather than just Captain Yates things.

341
00:16:33.000 --> 00:16:36.000
Although funnily enough, it then immediately starts to

342
00:16:36.000 --> 00:16:36.659
disintegrate.

343
00:16:36.720 --> 00:16:37.620
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

344
00:16:37.679 --> 00:16:38.940
He starts to become unavailable.

345
00:16:39.000 --> 00:16:42.360
And I could fully imagine Joe going on a date with any of those

346
00:16:42.360 --> 00:16:45.179
previous captains than I could, Captain Yates.

347
00:16:45.240 --> 00:16:46.980
Even Paul for some reason.

348
00:16:47.220 --> 00:16:49.559
It's very interesting as well.

349
00:16:49.620 --> 00:16:55.320
The introduction of Joe because I think in many ways, Liz was a

350
00:16:55.320 --> 00:16:57.659
character who didn't really work for the show.

351
00:16:57.720 --> 00:17:00.419
I think she's a great character and a great actress and I love Liz

352
00:17:00.419 --> 00:17:04.440
Shaw, but I know what they were trying to do by bringing it back

353
00:17:04.440 --> 00:17:07.859
to a more child friendly character who could be an identification

354
00:17:07.859 --> 00:17:08.400
figure.

355
00:17:08.460 --> 00:17:11.880
And it's very interesting how we almost missed out on the Liz Shaw

356
00:17:11.880 --> 00:17:14.460
character because they gave serious thought to actually making it

357
00:17:14.460 --> 00:17:17.279
Isabel from the invasion and bringing her back.

358
00:17:17.339 --> 00:17:21.660
And she is very similar to Joe. She's vivacious and she sort of

359
00:17:21.660 --> 00:17:24.059
goes off and gets herself into trouble and she wears...

360
00:17:24.059 --> 00:17:25.380
Although old and groovy things.

361
00:17:25.440 --> 00:17:26.160
Although older.

362
00:17:26.220 --> 00:17:31.019
Sally Faulkner would have been 36 when they brought her back.

363
00:17:31.019 --> 00:17:32.099
Possibly ancient.

364
00:17:32.220 --> 00:17:33.240
Positively ancient.

365
00:17:33.299 --> 00:17:37.319
But the point is, Joe comes across as a girl in terms of, you know

366
00:17:37.319 --> 00:17:39.720
she's fresh out of high school or fresh out of whatever degree

367
00:17:39.720 --> 00:17:43.619
she's done, college, whereas Isabel would come across as more and

368
00:17:43.619 --> 00:17:45.960
certainly more sassy and more worldly, even though, you know

369
00:17:45.960 --> 00:17:49.619
obviously Joe and Katie are both absolutely spectacular.

370
00:17:49.680 --> 00:17:53.460
And they just hit it off from the 1st moment.

371
00:17:53.519 --> 00:17:56.339
It's just that opening scene with the fire extinguisher.

372
00:17:56.400 --> 00:17:57.359
They are so good.

373
00:17:57.420 --> 00:18:00.660
And the way she looks at him, you know, I'm your new assistant.

374
00:18:00.720 --> 00:18:03.240
She is spot on from the get go.

375
00:18:03.299 --> 00:18:05.400
And yes, I know that the film sequences would have been done

376
00:18:05.400 --> 00:18:05.640
first.

377
00:18:05.700 --> 00:18:10.980
It's instantly delivers warmth, which a lot of season 7 didn't

378
00:18:10.980 --> 00:18:13.140
have, and again, I love it, though, I do.

379
00:18:13.200 --> 00:18:13.980
Love it, though, I do.

380
00:18:14.099 --> 00:18:16.799
Not as much warmth, not as much warmth, because he is very wise.

381
00:18:16.859 --> 00:18:17.579
He was saying last week.

382
00:18:17.640 --> 00:18:20.819
John is very warm with Carolyn John in that opening sequence that

383
00:18:20.819 --> 00:18:22.680
they have together in the in the unit lab.

384
00:18:22.740 --> 00:18:25.440
There's nothing wrong with the Liz character per se.

385
00:18:25.500 --> 00:18:28.380
It's just, I think that this is just better for the format of the

386
00:18:28.380 --> 00:18:28.559
show.

387
00:18:28.619 --> 00:18:31.500
I'm trying to work out if the cart came before the horse.

388
00:18:31.559 --> 00:18:36.000
Is the show changing and therefore Joe is a manifestation of that

389
00:18:36.000 --> 00:18:39.960
or do they craft Joe and then the entire show becomes Joe

390
00:18:39.960 --> 00:18:40.799
Flavoured?

391
00:18:40.859 --> 00:18:46.259
Like, it's really telling to compare this with Spearhead from

392
00:18:46.259 --> 00:18:49.500
Space, because so many of the elements are the same.

393
00:18:50.160 --> 00:18:56.279
And last week, we talked about the kind of realism that Spearhead

394
00:18:56.279 --> 00:18:57.359
from Space has.

395
00:18:57.420 --> 00:19:05.579
And in fact, this version of Earth that this show is set in now is

396
00:19:05.579 --> 00:19:09.180
vastly different from what we get in Spearhead from Space.

397
00:19:09.240 --> 00:19:14.519
And look at how quickly everything happens and how we go from

398
00:19:14.519 --> 00:19:18.839
place to place to place really, very, very quickly, much, much

399
00:19:18.839 --> 00:19:20.160
more than we ever have.

400
00:19:20.400 --> 00:19:25.440
That's actually effective change in the production techniques

401
00:19:25.440 --> 00:19:25.980
though.

402
00:19:26.700 --> 00:19:32.339
They had new equipment and were able to edit more. for season 8

403
00:19:32.339 --> 00:19:33.720
than they were for season.

404
00:19:33.779 --> 00:19:36.000
So season 7 is still a little, even though it's in colour, is

405
00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:37.619
still a little bit like it was in season six.

406
00:19:37.680 --> 00:19:39.299
Yeah, it's much more for live.

407
00:19:39.660 --> 00:19:44.220
They got new equipment before season eight, which meant they could

408
00:19:44.220 --> 00:19:47.339
have more edits in an episode.

409
00:19:47.460 --> 00:19:50.220
Is that also when they start to shoot rather than one episode a

410
00:19:50.220 --> 00:19:52.019
week. shoot 2 episodes every 2 weeks or something.

411
00:19:52.079 --> 00:19:53.519
Isn't that the same thing?

412
00:19:53.579 --> 00:19:55.019
They trial it.

413
00:19:55.079 --> 00:19:58.440
They had trial at the previous season, but for this season, it

414
00:19:58.440 --> 00:20:02.400
becomes the norm, like 2 episodes recorded every fortnight.

415
00:20:02.460 --> 00:20:05.220
But I think what Nathan was saying, though, is the fact that we

416
00:20:05.220 --> 00:20:08.160
start to get that kind of invented world spearhead from space is

417
00:20:08.160 --> 00:20:11.819
set in in cottage hospitals and, you know, high streets and so on

418
00:20:11.819 --> 00:20:14.519
like that at a big, you know, grim plastics factory.

419
00:20:14.579 --> 00:20:18.240
Whereas now we've got, yes, there's a little bit of a high street

420
00:20:18.240 --> 00:20:20.880
at times, but basically when people are being given daffodils.

421
00:20:20.940 --> 00:20:24.299
But, you know, there's a circus and there's a research, this

422
00:20:24.299 --> 00:20:27.119
antiquarry and a research facility and so on like that.

423
00:20:27.180 --> 00:20:30.539
And I mean, look at unit, Unity and Spearhead from Space was just

424
00:20:30.539 --> 00:20:33.299
behind a faceless building somewhere in central London.

425
00:20:33.359 --> 00:20:38.220
Here, it's in a weird kind of... on a canal where you sort of

426
00:20:38.220 --> 00:20:39.119
throw things through windows.

427
00:20:39.180 --> 00:20:40.500
It's sort of it's out there.

428
00:20:40.559 --> 00:20:41.640
It's out.

429
00:20:41.700 --> 00:20:42.359
It's not in.

430
00:20:42.420 --> 00:20:43.559
Yeah.

431
00:20:43.619 --> 00:20:46.799
Yeah, I think there's a speed, though, that we move from place to

432
00:20:46.799 --> 00:20:47.099
place.

433
00:20:47.160 --> 00:20:49.920
So we move to the museum, we go circus, museum.

434
00:20:49.980 --> 00:20:52.859
We're in and out of John Farrell's house.

435
00:20:52.920 --> 00:20:54.599
We're in the plastics factory.

436
00:20:54.660 --> 00:20:56.220
We move really, really rapidly.

437
00:20:56.279 --> 00:21:00.960
There's a moment in episode one where Joe goes off to make a list

438
00:21:00.960 --> 00:21:05.279
of plastics factories to divide up among people.

439
00:21:05.339 --> 00:21:09.660
The next time we see her, she's actually in a plastics factory

440
00:21:09.660 --> 00:21:13.380
investigating one. and there's no connective tissue between those

441
00:21:13.380 --> 00:21:14.940
scenes at all.

442
00:21:15.000 --> 00:21:19.380
So we're going very, very rapidly through odd spaces, I think, than

443
00:21:19.380 --> 00:21:19.680
we did.

444
00:21:19.740 --> 00:21:23.700
I can actually see how it would work as a six-part story and how

445
00:21:23.700 --> 00:21:25.319
those things would have been stretched out.

446
00:21:25.380 --> 00:21:27.720
But I wonder whether that would have helped.

447
00:21:27.779 --> 00:21:28.680
No, no, no.

448
00:21:28.740 --> 00:21:31.140
I'm not saying it would, but I can just see it in a pertly kind of

449
00:21:31.140 --> 00:21:31.319
way.

450
00:21:31.380 --> 00:21:33.180
I mean, clause of Axos does the same thing.

451
00:21:33.240 --> 00:21:36.299
It has the same very quick cutting between scenes.

452
00:21:36.359 --> 00:21:38.519
But actually, this is something that I wanted to talk about.

453
00:21:38.640 --> 00:21:40.859
It built on what James was talking about with kind of new

454
00:21:40.859 --> 00:21:41.700
technology.

455
00:21:41.759 --> 00:21:46.019
The reason terror of the autons feels like another revamp of the

456
00:21:46.019 --> 00:21:49.079
show is that the mise en scene of the show is completely

457
00:21:49.079 --> 00:21:49.680
different.

458
00:21:49.740 --> 00:21:52.619
So the way that it's actually presented is different.

459
00:21:52.740 --> 00:21:54.359
And again, it's a bit of a blind alley.

460
00:21:54.420 --> 00:21:57.180
There aren't many examples of the show looking like this.

461
00:21:57.240 --> 00:21:59.759
They sort of settle down into a halfway point.

462
00:21:59.819 --> 00:22:01.980
It's like they, let's look at the soundtrack.

463
00:22:02.039 --> 00:22:05.640
The soundtrack is, as Nathan might call it, blaring space nonsense

464
00:22:05.640 --> 00:22:08.279
because it's all done on a synthesiser.

465
00:22:08.339 --> 00:22:10.259
It's very kind of...

466
00:22:10.319 --> 00:22:12.720
They swiftly decide that that doesn't work.

467
00:22:12.779 --> 00:22:15.960
And so they mix it in with some conventional instruments and you

468
00:22:15.960 --> 00:22:17.579
get, say, the day of the garlic score.

469
00:22:17.640 --> 00:22:21.599
Here there's a reliance on shooting in a certain way that doesn't

470
00:22:21.599 --> 00:22:22.319
quite work.

471
00:22:22.380 --> 00:22:25.200
And so they sort of go back to a happy medium between what they

472
00:22:25.200 --> 00:22:26.700
used to shoot and what they shoot now.

473
00:22:26.759 --> 00:22:31.019
So the reason that this is sometimes called comic strip is that

474
00:22:31.019 --> 00:22:35.279
Barry Letts alternates between mid-shots and big close-ups, often

475
00:22:35.279 --> 00:22:38.640
for no dramatic purpose, and comic strip panels do the same

476
00:22:38.640 --> 00:22:38.940
thing.

477
00:22:39.000 --> 00:22:41.940
They have those big reactive close-ups on characters.

478
00:22:42.000 --> 00:22:46.319
People also walk into an outer frame without wide establishing

479
00:22:46.319 --> 00:22:50.099
shots, which means you don't get a sense of place and geography on

480
00:22:50.099 --> 00:22:53.160
the sets, and often scenes will start on those big close shots.

481
00:22:53.279 --> 00:22:56.880
So an example that you were talking about there, Nathan, is the

482
00:22:56.880 --> 00:22:59.519
sphere being stolen from the museum in episode one.

483
00:22:59.579 --> 00:23:03.059
In spearhead from space, you would have had a direct lead up to

484
00:23:03.059 --> 00:23:03.299
this.

485
00:23:03.359 --> 00:23:05.099
So you would build up to that moment.

486
00:23:05.160 --> 00:23:08.339
You'd have like an establishing shot of where you would were, you

487
00:23:08.339 --> 00:23:10.920
might have some mysterious shot of a character walking up the

488
00:23:10.920 --> 00:23:11.940
stairs or something like that.

489
00:23:12.000 --> 00:23:13.079
You get none of that.

490
00:23:13.140 --> 00:23:15.779
It's 3 quick odd shots.

491
00:23:15.839 --> 00:23:18.960
Very, very quick at last 10 seconds, that scene.

492
00:23:19.019 --> 00:23:25.619
It's a weirdly high close-up of the casing and MCU of the guard

493
00:23:25.619 --> 00:23:27.539
being hit by who Russell.

494
00:23:29.460 --> 00:23:31.319
You, Russell.

495
00:23:31.380 --> 00:23:32.220
You, Russell.

496
00:23:33.059 --> 00:23:35.700
When I was young, I thought his name was you Russell, EWE.

497
00:23:36.599 --> 00:23:41.039
So you get the weirdly close high shot of the casing.

498
00:23:41.099 --> 00:23:45.180
You get the MCU of the guard being hit by you, Russell on CSO, and

499
00:23:45.180 --> 00:23:49.019
then a cut back to the casing for an inordinately long time in

500
00:23:49.019 --> 00:23:49.500
things on it.

501
00:23:49.559 --> 00:23:52.140
And the grammar of those shots is misplaced.

502
00:23:52.200 --> 00:23:55.859
You need to know where you are, but you only get where you are in

503
00:23:55.859 --> 00:23:59.339
the 2nd shot where you get the Kromakishot of the museum behind

504
00:23:59.339 --> 00:24:00.059
them.

505
00:24:00.119 --> 00:24:02.339
But there's a lot happening in close-up in that short.

506
00:24:02.400 --> 00:24:04.740
You've got one character yelling and another one clubbing them.

507
00:24:04.799 --> 00:24:08.220
So by the time you cut away, you only just taken in what's

508
00:24:08.220 --> 00:24:08.519
happening.

509
00:24:08.579 --> 00:24:10.380
I don't think it actually works.

510
00:24:10.440 --> 00:24:14.880
I think it's a style of the show that moves too quickly and

511
00:24:14.880 --> 00:24:17.279
doesn't ground you well enough, which is why they do away with

512
00:24:17.279 --> 00:24:17.519
it.

513
00:24:17.579 --> 00:24:19.559
And it's not just Barry Lett's being a bad director.

514
00:24:19.619 --> 00:24:20.819
We know he's not a bad director.

515
00:24:20.880 --> 00:24:22.740
Enemy of the world is not like this.

516
00:24:22.799 --> 00:24:24.599
Carnival of Monsters is not like this.

517
00:24:24.660 --> 00:24:27.480
So it was a stylistic choice, which I think they make.

518
00:24:27.660 --> 00:24:32.039
Do you think, though, that's because this is the 1st time they

519
00:24:32.039 --> 00:24:36.119
have had the ability to edit so much, they are actually getting a

520
00:24:36.119 --> 00:24:41.460
little too excited and and go, oh, I can have lots of fast moving

521
00:24:41.460 --> 00:24:46.440
pacy kind of shots and say maybe they over- over-ag that pudding?

522
00:24:46.500 --> 00:24:47.039
It could be.

523
00:24:47.099 --> 00:24:51.779
Or is it like series 11 where they, you know, do an exciting new

524
00:24:51.779 --> 00:24:54.839
look, which doesn't quite take for the rest of the season?

525
00:24:55.019 --> 00:24:58.619
It could be, but also remember that they would have had to have

526
00:24:58.619 --> 00:25:02.400
planned for this because it moves so quickly in the shooting that

527
00:25:02.400 --> 00:25:04.559
these episodes would have to have been overwritten.

528
00:25:04.619 --> 00:25:08.220
You couldn't have had a standard 25 minute episode being shot like

529
00:25:08.220 --> 00:25:11.220
this because that example we were using before of the master

530
00:25:11.220 --> 00:25:14.940
stealing the sphere from the museum, that should have lasted a

531
00:25:14.940 --> 00:25:17.220
longer time on screen and it doesn't.

532
00:25:17.279 --> 00:25:20.700
So that begs the question, was this the remit?

533
00:25:20.759 --> 00:25:22.019
Did they say we're going to try this?

534
00:25:22.079 --> 00:25:25.559
We're going to shoot it really quickly. and like make it really

535
00:25:25.559 --> 00:25:26.339
energetic?

536
00:25:26.400 --> 00:25:29.400
Or did perhaps the scripts come in long and they decided that was

537
00:25:29.400 --> 00:25:29.940
the way to shoot it?

538
00:25:30.000 --> 00:25:33.359
I think you might be onto something there because there are

539
00:25:33.359 --> 00:25:37.380
missing, there are significantly large missing chunks of this

540
00:25:37.380 --> 00:25:37.799
episode.

541
00:25:37.859 --> 00:25:41.039
There's actually someone in the entitles of one of the episodes

542
00:25:41.039 --> 00:25:42.779
who doesn't appear in the story.

543
00:25:42.839 --> 00:25:44.819
How interesting scene was cut out.

544
00:25:44.880 --> 00:25:46.019
A policeman character.

545
00:25:46.079 --> 00:25:48.420
It would have just been a line, but nevertheless.

546
00:25:55.380 --> 00:25:57.779
Yeah, what were you going to say, son?

547
00:25:57.839 --> 00:26:01.500
Well, I'm going to disagree and agree with different aspects.

548
00:26:01.559 --> 00:26:04.019
I want to go back to the 6 part thing because I actually wonder

549
00:26:04.019 --> 00:26:08.400
whether plotting wise, the story was devised, was at least

550
00:26:08.400 --> 00:26:12.900
pencilled out as a 6 parter and then condensed because there is an

551
00:26:12.900 --> 00:26:14.880
awful lot that happens in episode one even more.

552
00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:16.859
And I think Claude of Axos works in a similar way.

553
00:26:16.920 --> 00:26:18.839
Maybe it's just because mentally at this point in the program

554
00:26:18.839 --> 00:26:22.380
they're thinking in the context of 6 part stories and a four

555
00:26:21.779 --> 00:26:26.099
parter is a shortened 6 part as opposed to what becomes the other

556
00:26:26.099 --> 00:26:26.519
way around.

557
00:26:26.579 --> 00:26:28.619
You know, a six-parter is a stretched for parter.

558
00:26:28.680 --> 00:26:30.960
I actually think it's not a conscious decision.

559
00:26:31.019 --> 00:26:33.180
I mean, I'd be surprised, I should say, if it was a conscious

560
00:26:33.180 --> 00:26:33.660
decision.

561
00:26:33.720 --> 00:26:38.039
I think it's the fact that Barry lets is really going gung-ho with

562
00:26:38.039 --> 00:26:39.839
his Kramer key with his CSO.

563
00:26:39.900 --> 00:26:41.039
He's got ideas.

564
00:26:41.099 --> 00:26:42.539
He's got ambition for this thing.

565
00:26:42.599 --> 00:26:46.140
And remember, he appears in that training video. that's done

566
00:26:46.140 --> 00:26:47.220
internally with BBC.

567
00:26:47.279 --> 00:26:50.400
He is an advocate for using this technology, not just in space

568
00:26:50.400 --> 00:26:54.059
dramas like Doctor Who, but in normal dramas, like in their setup

569
00:26:54.059 --> 00:26:54.599
it's a village.

570
00:26:54.660 --> 00:26:57.839
I think it's because they've decided to write it with so many

571
00:26:57.839 --> 00:27:00.299
little scenes and he's going to achieve it with Mrs. Farrell's

572
00:27:00.299 --> 00:27:02.400
kitchen and the museum and so on, just using Kremaki.

573
00:27:02.460 --> 00:27:04.799
There's also another sequence where Farrell discovers the master

574
00:27:04.799 --> 00:27:06.119
in with the autons.

575
00:27:06.119 --> 00:27:07.680
And that's a Kramer key background as well.

576
00:27:07.740 --> 00:27:10.440
There's quite a lot of chromic backgrounds just so you can get a

577
00:27:10.440 --> 00:27:12.119
single shot of a single location.

578
00:27:12.180 --> 00:27:16.019
And I think it's Barrelett's wanting to expand the number of quote

579
00:27:16.019 --> 00:27:18.599
unquote locations and or quote unquote sets.

580
00:27:18.660 --> 00:27:21.900
And then when it comes down to it, in practice in the studio, to

581
00:27:21.900 --> 00:27:25.680
set up that CSO museum, you can only really have the 2 shots the

582
00:27:25.680 --> 00:27:28.259
way it was done because it was going to take 2 long to set up kind

583
00:27:28.259 --> 00:27:28.619
of thing.

584
00:27:28.680 --> 00:27:31.019
And so you couldn't do as many shots as you would normally do

585
00:27:31.019 --> 00:27:34.079
using the traditional grammar of a television drama, especially at

586
00:27:34.079 --> 00:27:34.440
that era.

587
00:27:34.500 --> 00:27:35.700
I mean, I think you're right.

588
00:27:35.759 --> 00:27:39.299
And also, that's why they pair it back from now because that scene

589
00:27:39.299 --> 00:27:42.779
that you referenced, where Farrell comes in and the master is

590
00:27:42.779 --> 00:27:45.779
activating the autons, actually gets lost in the drama.

591
00:27:45.839 --> 00:27:49.259
It should be a really scary part of the end of episode one where

592
00:27:49.259 --> 00:27:52.380
the master is activating the autons, which the audience has seen

593
00:27:52.380 --> 00:27:56.700
before for the 1st time, but actually it's done again in 3 shots

594
00:27:56.700 --> 00:28:01.380
wide shots of autons just kind of sitting up, big close-up on

595
00:28:01.380 --> 00:28:03.839
Farrell, just looking panicked, and then a short of the auton

596
00:28:03.839 --> 00:28:05.819
about to hit him, and it's completely thrown away.

597
00:28:05.880 --> 00:28:07.920
Whereas actually, it's a big part of the drama.

598
00:28:07.980 --> 00:28:11.460
So I think that they decide you can't actually shoot important

599
00:28:11.460 --> 00:28:14.519
parts of the drama against Chromaki because they don't land.

600
00:28:14.640 --> 00:28:18.599
I also think they're remembering the snappiness of the cutting in

601
00:28:18.599 --> 00:28:20.700
spearhead from space, which you could do because the whole thing

602
00:28:20.700 --> 00:28:23.519
was cut on film, so you could slice it together, better, and you

603
00:28:23.519 --> 00:28:26.279
get this kind of that 60s, as Todd was saying last week, is that

604
00:28:26.279 --> 00:28:29.220
kind of 60s feature film, flavour to it.

605
00:28:29.279 --> 00:28:32.099
And I think that's what he's trying to emulate here and it just

606
00:28:32.099 --> 00:28:34.680
doesn't quite work in the same way because of the other

607
00:28:34.680 --> 00:28:35.220
restrictions.

608
00:28:35.279 --> 00:28:38.880
It ties their hands in how you shoot drama, and that's why tear of

609
00:28:38.880 --> 00:28:41.880
the autons, again, is characterised as comic strip, because it

610
00:28:41.880 --> 00:28:44.400
doesn't feel like actual drama sometimes.

611
00:28:44.460 --> 00:28:46.319
It feels like there's just cameras covering things that are

612
00:28:46.319 --> 00:28:49.440
happening rather than a buildup of the way that you cut drama

613
00:28:49.440 --> 00:28:49.859
together.

614
00:28:49.920 --> 00:28:53.579
So if you use that example of the time lord appearing to the

615
00:28:53.579 --> 00:28:57.420
doctor and he's out in midair, which is funny, what they do to

616
00:28:57.420 --> 00:29:00.539
bring him into the doctor is just zoom in on the amter against.

617
00:29:00.599 --> 00:29:01.440
It kind of looks pretty crappy.

618
00:29:01.500 --> 00:29:05.279
It's okay, but what really undoes it is when they try to cut to

619
00:29:05.279 --> 00:29:09.119
the live action studio and the placement of the 2 characters.

620
00:29:09.119 --> 00:29:10.380
Yes, they're like right nose to nose.

621
00:29:10.440 --> 00:29:11.519
It's bizarre.

622
00:29:11.579 --> 00:29:14.220
Yeah, it's very often he's like, whoa, the doctor wasn't standing

623
00:29:14.220 --> 00:29:14.880
there, was he?

624
00:29:14.940 --> 00:29:17.940
And so the natural coverage is undermined by it, which is why they

625
00:29:17.940 --> 00:29:20.460
never lean into it to this extent again.

626
00:29:20.519 --> 00:29:24.720
They only ever use going forward apart from a few very rare

627
00:29:24.720 --> 00:29:25.440
occasions.

628
00:29:25.500 --> 00:29:30.119
They only have used chroma key for space backgrounds and to do

629
00:29:30.119 --> 00:29:31.440
things which are slightly fantastic.

630
00:29:31.500 --> 00:29:35.880
Sometimes you'll have a very competent director like Christopher

631
00:29:35.880 --> 00:29:39.180
Barry who will use it to fill in the background of corridors.

632
00:29:39.240 --> 00:29:42.720
So in the brain of Morbius, you'll have the corridor in Solons

633
00:29:42.720 --> 00:29:43.740
laboratory.

634
00:29:43.740 --> 00:29:46.500
And it's actually got a chromicky background to extend it.

635
00:29:46.619 --> 00:29:48.420
Same things happens in robots of death.

636
00:29:48.420 --> 00:29:50.400
Rather than the blow-up photograph.

637
00:29:50.400 --> 00:29:52.200
Rather than the blow-up photograph.

638
00:29:52.259 --> 00:29:55.559
Isn't it funny whenever we go to a radio telescope, things always

639
00:29:55.559 --> 00:29:57.119
fall apart in the production?

640
00:29:57.240 --> 00:29:57.900
Yes, exactly.

641
00:29:57.900 --> 00:30:02.940
But you never again have an instance where you're trying to place

642
00:30:02.940 --> 00:30:07.019
real characters into a real world environment and convince the

643
00:30:07.019 --> 00:30:08.039
audience by effect.

644
00:30:08.400 --> 00:30:10.980
But also the snappiness as well.

645
00:30:11.039 --> 00:30:13.019
I mean, we talk about the comic book thinking, I think you're

646
00:30:13.019 --> 00:30:15.539
right with the choices of shots and you go to these really big

647
00:30:15.539 --> 00:30:16.619
close-ups quite a lot.

648
00:30:16.680 --> 00:30:20.160
I also think it's just a stylistic thing and it's a direction that

649
00:30:20.160 --> 00:30:20.759
we don't go in.

650
00:30:20.819 --> 00:30:25.980
It's the stylistic choices to make it almost hyper real or

651
00:30:25.980 --> 00:30:26.940
unreal.

652
00:30:27.000 --> 00:30:28.559
And they decide to go back to the real.

653
00:30:28.619 --> 00:30:29.759
They do.

654
00:30:29.819 --> 00:30:31.019
I mean, we do go back to it again.

655
00:30:31.079 --> 00:30:33.180
I think to some degree in clause of access.

656
00:30:33.240 --> 00:30:35.400
Yes, I was going to say, clause of access has a very similar

657
00:30:35.400 --> 00:30:36.539
flavour to it in terms of that.

658
00:30:36.599 --> 00:30:38.400
Michael Ferguson is a very good director.

659
00:30:38.460 --> 00:30:39.359
Yeah.

660
00:30:39.359 --> 00:30:43.440
And also, I was speaking last week in Spearhead from Space about

661
00:30:43.440 --> 00:30:47.460
how much influence Douglas Canfield had in the way that he shot

662
00:30:47.460 --> 00:30:49.140
Web of Fear and the Invasion.

663
00:30:49.200 --> 00:30:54.779
And Canfield uses intense close-ups on characters in the studio.

664
00:30:54.839 --> 00:30:59.339
And so you'll get a lot of scenes. of the doctor and Travers in

665
00:30:59.339 --> 00:31:02.880
the laboratory in Web of Fear, and a lot of it is shot in these

666
00:31:02.880 --> 00:31:05.099
incredible close-ups of both characters.

667
00:31:05.220 --> 00:31:08.220
I think Barry Letts is trying to ape that and it doesn't quite

668
00:31:08.220 --> 00:31:10.380
work because he's knocked Douglas Canfield.

669
00:31:10.440 --> 00:31:14.400
Canfield just knows exactly where to place his camera to have a

670
00:31:14.400 --> 00:31:16.259
really interesting shot of someone's face.

671
00:31:16.319 --> 00:31:18.779
Whereas I don't think other directors can do it, but they were

672
00:31:18.779 --> 00:31:18.960
trying.

673
00:31:25.799 --> 00:31:32.700
So, the other thing that I want to talk about a bit is the way the

674
00:31:32.700 --> 00:31:37.920
story is structured compared to the last time we had the auton.

675
00:31:38.039 --> 00:31:39.000
It's so weird.

676
00:31:39.059 --> 00:31:41.579
It's just structured as a series of attacks on the doctor.

677
00:31:41.640 --> 00:31:42.539
Yeah.

678
00:31:42.599 --> 00:31:45.299
So there's no plot as such.

679
00:31:45.359 --> 00:31:47.579
Like it doesn't develop, I think.

680
00:31:47.640 --> 00:31:49.980
I think that there are a series of things.

681
00:31:50.039 --> 00:31:53.519
I guess the closest that we get to plot development is as we start

682
00:31:53.519 --> 00:31:57.660
to find out about the final plot, which is the daffodils, but

683
00:31:57.660 --> 00:32:00.779
essentially it is just a whole bunch of stuff that happens to the

684
00:32:00.779 --> 00:32:02.460
doctor. and then it just stops happening.

685
00:32:02.519 --> 00:32:03.119
Yeah.

686
00:32:03.180 --> 00:32:08.279
And what we had last time was we had to introduce these new

687
00:32:08.279 --> 00:32:09.960
characters in this new premise.

688
00:32:10.019 --> 00:32:13.920
So we basically kept the doctor out of the action from episode 2

689
00:32:13.920 --> 00:32:17.640
until about the end of episode 4 and had him getting to know Liz

690
00:32:17.640 --> 00:32:19.680
and doing his thing and stuff.

691
00:32:19.740 --> 00:32:20.880
Here.

692
00:32:20.940 --> 00:32:25.500
I think there's some of that motivating it, and I think we do have

693
00:32:25.500 --> 00:32:27.900
to spend some time with Joe, and we'll talk a little bit more

694
00:32:27.900 --> 00:32:31.079
about her, I think, but it is just a bunch of things that happen

695
00:32:31.079 --> 00:32:34.680
one after the other to the doctor culminating in, you know, him

696
00:32:34.680 --> 00:32:36.599
being kidnapped by the master at the end of the story.

697
00:32:36.660 --> 00:32:40.380
I think it's because it's Doctor Who's 1st sequel.

698
00:32:40.440 --> 00:32:43.440
And so they don't have to do all of that setup.

699
00:32:43.500 --> 00:32:46.920
They think that the audience knows what the autons are.

700
00:32:46.980 --> 00:32:50.339
They sort of cover it in one dialogue sequence with Richard

701
00:32:50.339 --> 00:32:52.319
Franklin and Katie Manning.

702
00:32:52.380 --> 00:32:56.279
And so what Holmes does is just try to spice it up.

703
00:32:56.339 --> 00:32:58.559
He knows that they're going for a lot of action.

704
00:32:58.619 --> 00:33:00.539
And so he just keeps throwing in action.

705
00:33:00.599 --> 00:33:02.400
In fact, it's gratuitous action.

706
00:33:02.460 --> 00:33:07.019
So not only do you have the doctor being an attempt to blow up the

707
00:33:07.019 --> 00:33:09.299
doctor, 3 separate occasions.

708
00:33:09.359 --> 00:33:11.160
There are bombs which try to blow up the doctor.

709
00:33:11.220 --> 00:33:13.019
But anytime something...

710
00:33:13.380 --> 00:33:14.940
It's true.

711
00:33:15.000 --> 00:33:16.619
That is true.

712
00:33:18.420 --> 00:33:23.400
In the normalisation, he makes the one at the Circus of Santaran.

713
00:33:25.019 --> 00:33:25.920
Yes, it does.

714
00:33:25.980 --> 00:33:28.019
But you know, don't even get me started on that.

715
00:33:28.140 --> 00:33:33.180
I did wonder where that was when I was watching the story as a

716
00:33:33.180 --> 00:33:34.680
child because I'd read the book first.

717
00:33:34.740 --> 00:33:35.519
Yes, me too.

718
00:33:35.579 --> 00:33:38.579
It's not actually the first, you can't really say it's the 1st

719
00:33:38.579 --> 00:33:39.119
sequel, though.

720
00:33:39.180 --> 00:33:42.720
I mean, I think it's the 1st one that's more most closely remade.

721
00:33:42.779 --> 00:33:45.900
Even the moonbase isn't as much of a remake of 10 planets as this

722
00:33:45.900 --> 00:33:46.619
is a spinhead.

723
00:33:46.680 --> 00:33:48.720
Yeah, yeah, or snowman and web of fear.

724
00:33:48.779 --> 00:33:50.640
But it's a certain sequel.

725
00:33:50.700 --> 00:33:51.480
Well, I don't know.

726
00:33:51.539 --> 00:33:52.980
I think I know what you're coming from, though.

727
00:33:53.039 --> 00:33:54.359
It's very much the same thing.

728
00:33:54.420 --> 00:33:58.259
We have a plastic factory that's being taken over, you know, by a

729
00:33:58.259 --> 00:33:59.099
guy.

730
00:33:59.160 --> 00:34:00.960
It's less a sequel, more a remake.

731
00:34:00.960 --> 00:34:04.440
Well, and we're going to do this again next year.

732
00:34:04.500 --> 00:34:07.380
It seems to be a thing that we're doing this year and next year is

733
00:34:07.380 --> 00:34:12.900
what if a series 7 story only with the master, right?

734
00:34:12.960 --> 00:34:15.840
And we kind of do that this year and we do that next year.

735
00:34:15.900 --> 00:34:17.159
And this is very close to that.

736
00:34:17.219 --> 00:34:21.000
But when the master comes, and the master's just Channing, isn't

737
00:34:21.000 --> 00:34:25.559
he, like, the master is essentially Channing, we do have a auton

738
00:34:25.559 --> 00:34:29.460
voice guy, but he's just got a featureless head and a sort of

739
00:34:29.460 --> 00:34:32.340
suddenly the auton voice. one of them.

740
00:34:32.400 --> 00:34:33.599
Yeah, one of them.

741
00:34:33.599 --> 00:34:35.340
And look much less scary, unfortunately.

742
00:34:35.400 --> 00:34:36.360
Yes.

743
00:34:36.420 --> 00:34:38.039
Yeah, I'm wondering about that.

744
00:34:38.099 --> 00:34:40.500
Those blue overalls from last week were fantastic.

745
00:34:40.559 --> 00:34:41.820
Oh, and the scarves.

746
00:34:41.880 --> 00:34:42.599
The scarves.

747
00:34:42.659 --> 00:34:45.179
But again, it's down to the direction.

748
00:34:45.239 --> 00:34:47.699
There was something about the way that they moved, the stillness

749
00:34:47.699 --> 00:34:49.199
in spearhead from space.

750
00:34:49.260 --> 00:34:53.280
They were much more terrifying than any previous monster in the

751
00:34:53.280 --> 00:34:53.400
show.

752
00:34:53.460 --> 00:34:56.219
Well, and the other reason they're more terrifying is because

753
00:34:56.219 --> 00:34:58.019
they're still, and then suddenly they run.

754
00:34:58.079 --> 00:35:00.539
Like when he's...

755
00:35:00.539 --> 00:35:00.840
Yes.

756
00:35:00.900 --> 00:35:03.300
And that's what you don't really get in this one because partly

757
00:35:03.300 --> 00:35:04.500
because of the huge stupid heads.

758
00:35:04.559 --> 00:35:07.739
Yeah, well, in Doctor Who generally, they can't run because...

759
00:35:08.039 --> 00:35:08.880
So that was so unique last night.

760
00:35:08.940 --> 00:35:13.679
I think the scares in Spearhead come from the same kind of jump

761
00:35:13.679 --> 00:35:16.739
scare you get from the weeping angels in the new series.

762
00:35:16.860 --> 00:35:19.260
It's something that shouldn't move.

763
00:35:19.320 --> 00:35:23.340
And then suddenly it moves either out of the corner of your eye or

764
00:35:23.340 --> 00:35:24.900
when you blink.

765
00:35:24.960 --> 00:35:29.940
It's because it's suddenly coming towards you and it shouldn't

766
00:35:29.940 --> 00:35:30.179
be.

767
00:35:30.239 --> 00:35:35.400
It's like a mundane thing suddenly, suddenly being a threat.

768
00:35:35.460 --> 00:35:39.059
Here, the autons are just surplus to the plot.

769
00:35:39.119 --> 00:35:41.219
They're just the master's henchmen.

770
00:35:41.280 --> 00:35:44.340
Whereas spearhead from space sets out to make them scary.

771
00:35:44.400 --> 00:35:47.760
So the scene with ransom coming back to the factory and looking

772
00:35:47.760 --> 00:35:51.960
around and that gallery of autons behind him and one of them just

773
00:35:51.960 --> 00:35:55.139
slowly starts to move is an absolutely terrifying sequence.

774
00:35:55.199 --> 00:35:58.920
Whereas in terror of the autons, The autons don't do anything

775
00:35:58.920 --> 00:35:59.699
frightening.

776
00:35:59.760 --> 00:36:00.780
No.

777
00:36:00.840 --> 00:36:03.840
In fact, there's no time for atmosphere, I think, is part of the

778
00:36:03.840 --> 00:36:04.739
problem here.

779
00:36:04.739 --> 00:36:06.539
And they're not reaching for that.

780
00:36:06.599 --> 00:36:08.519
You know, they did that last year.

781
00:36:08.579 --> 00:36:11.039
And so this is sort of action.

782
00:36:11.099 --> 00:36:13.320
This is introducing the master.

783
00:36:13.500 --> 00:36:17.460
Like it very much has that role, doesn't it?

784
00:36:17.519 --> 00:36:21.420
It's also lacking that it all feels too rushed.

785
00:36:21.480 --> 00:36:25.559
One thing that Better Doctor Who stories always had, is silence or

786
00:36:25.559 --> 00:36:28.860
stillness or, as you're saying, Peter, with the autons being

787
00:36:28.860 --> 00:36:29.159
still.

788
00:36:29.219 --> 00:36:32.699
And even within a line of dialogue, all the dialogues kind of

789
00:36:32.699 --> 00:36:35.400
rushed out and everyone kind of responds to everybody else and it

790
00:36:35.400 --> 00:36:36.179
all sort of keeps moving.

791
00:36:36.239 --> 00:36:39.659
You don't get that poise that you get with in spearhead with

792
00:36:39.659 --> 00:36:43.019
things like destroy. total destruction.

793
00:36:43.079 --> 00:36:46.980
Like that the pauses in that, it creates a more captivating way of

794
00:36:46.980 --> 00:36:49.139
delivering dialogue rather than just getting the lines out as

795
00:36:49.139 --> 00:36:51.059
quickly as you can so that the next person can deliver theirs.

796
00:36:51.119 --> 00:36:54.300
Spearhead from Space had that essential John Wood nuttiness, the

797
00:36:54.300 --> 00:36:56.460
terror.

798
00:36:56.519 --> 00:36:56.820
Yes.

799
00:36:56.820 --> 00:36:57.420
Yes.

800
00:36:57.480 --> 00:36:58.260
It's the pauses.

801
00:36:58.320 --> 00:37:00.420
It's the best delivery is often the ones with pauses.

802
00:37:00.840 --> 00:37:04.559
It's interesting as well because I think the script is setting up

803
00:37:04.559 --> 00:37:06.000
the autons to be scary.

804
00:37:06.059 --> 00:37:08.940
It doesn't give them necessarily scary things to do, but it's

805
00:37:08.940 --> 00:37:12.900
making them visually scary by giving them the big daffodil men

806
00:37:12.900 --> 00:37:13.380
heads.

807
00:37:13.440 --> 00:37:16.139
We've become used to those through being overexposed to them, but

808
00:37:16.139 --> 00:37:19.739
they're actually quite grotesque and sinister looking.

809
00:37:19.800 --> 00:37:23.579
And also the auton heads on the policeman is quite a shocking

810
00:37:23.579 --> 00:37:25.260
image, which we've become used to.

811
00:37:25.320 --> 00:37:28.679
I think the script is setting them up for that, but there's just

812
00:37:28.679 --> 00:37:31.019
something about the way they're being shot, which isn't

813
00:37:31.019 --> 00:37:31.559
frightening.

814
00:37:31.619 --> 00:37:35.340
Although the action sequence in the quarry where the policeman

815
00:37:35.340 --> 00:37:39.000
auton is flung down the side of the hill and then just instantly

816
00:37:39.000 --> 00:37:39.539
gets up.

817
00:37:39.599 --> 00:37:41.219
That is very, very good too.

818
00:37:41.280 --> 00:37:44.280
But doesn't Terry Walsh like break his arm or something like

819
00:37:44.280 --> 00:37:44.579
that?

820
00:37:44.639 --> 00:37:45.539
Still gets up.

821
00:37:45.599 --> 00:37:46.500
He's probably got set.

822
00:37:46.559 --> 00:37:49.320
The show must go off, Nathan.

823
00:37:49.380 --> 00:37:49.800
Yeah.

824
00:37:49.860 --> 00:37:53.340
But the other thing is that the things that are scary in this are

825
00:37:53.340 --> 00:37:55.079
less the autons like they were in Spearhead.

826
00:37:55.139 --> 00:37:56.460
It's all the other things.

827
00:37:56.519 --> 00:37:59.099
It's the black chair that kills McDermott.

828
00:37:59.159 --> 00:38:02.159
It's the daffodils with the spraying out the plastic, which is

829
00:38:02.159 --> 00:38:04.139
actually very frightening indeed.

830
00:38:04.199 --> 00:38:05.820
And the troll doll and so.

831
00:38:06.000 --> 00:38:06.420
Yes it is.

832
00:38:06.480 --> 00:38:09.119
And that's actually one of the moments in the story that's very

833
00:38:09.119 --> 00:38:13.500
well shot as well because when you see the jet of plastic come out

834
00:38:13.500 --> 00:38:16.739
from the daffodil, You then cut to an incredible close-up on Katie

835
00:38:16.739 --> 00:38:20.519
Manning staggering back from the camera with it over her mouth and

836
00:38:20.519 --> 00:38:22.739
that's almost filmmic in the way it's shot in the studio.

837
00:38:22.920 --> 00:38:29.280
So, um, you do see the uh, uh, mask on the table in front of her.

838
00:38:29.340 --> 00:38:32.099
The mask being put on the table by someone's hand.

839
00:38:32.639 --> 00:38:34.380
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

840
00:38:34.440 --> 00:38:35.400
God, you've ruined it now.

841
00:38:35.460 --> 00:38:37.739
I've never noticed that.

842
00:38:37.800 --> 00:38:40.860
Neither did I. Maybe that's something that Tata Swick here.

843
00:38:40.920 --> 00:38:42.420
No, I noticed this time.

844
00:38:42.480 --> 00:38:46.739
It's clear that Robert Holmes has been asked to deliver a very

845
00:38:46.739 --> 00:38:47.699
fast paced script.

846
00:38:47.760 --> 00:38:50.159
And so he sat down and he's just sort of ticked off this list of

847
00:38:50.159 --> 00:38:51.780
things of like, what's plastic?

848
00:38:51.840 --> 00:38:53.219
What can I make scary?

849
00:38:53.219 --> 00:38:54.000
That's plastic.

850
00:38:54.059 --> 00:38:55.079
Playing cord and so on.

851
00:38:55.079 --> 00:38:56.400
The phone cord, all that kind of stuff.

852
00:38:56.460 --> 00:38:58.019
And actually, that does work.

853
00:38:58.079 --> 00:39:02.280
It's lots of scary images, but it's a lot of it skated over and it

854
00:39:02.280 --> 00:39:03.780
skated over in the production as well.

855
00:39:03.840 --> 00:39:09.239
But also, I think this is the 1st time where, or is it, like, is

856
00:39:09.239 --> 00:39:13.980
it the 1st time where we've gone for this sort of the camp?

857
00:39:14.039 --> 00:39:19.139
Like the carnival heads on the auton seem to me to be a place that

858
00:39:19.139 --> 00:39:21.300
Doctor Who now goes all the time?

859
00:39:21.659 --> 00:39:22.199
Yes.

860
00:39:22.199 --> 00:39:22.559
Yeah.

861
00:39:22.619 --> 00:39:25.559
But I don't think it's gone here before.

862
00:39:25.619 --> 00:39:30.480
And I think the threat of the phone flex is funny.

863
00:39:30.539 --> 00:39:32.340
I think that the...

864
00:39:32.340 --> 00:39:33.360
He makes it funny.

865
00:39:33.420 --> 00:39:34.139
He makes it funny.

866
00:39:34.260 --> 00:39:34.800
With his eyes.

867
00:39:34.860 --> 00:39:35.699
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

868
00:39:35.760 --> 00:39:40.139
But I also think that the, like, yes, that chair is scary, but the

869
00:39:40.139 --> 00:39:43.500
chair is also played for laughs, isn't it?

870
00:39:43.559 --> 00:39:44.699
Like that scene.

871
00:39:44.760 --> 00:39:47.039
The line where Michael Wisher calls Sylvia.

872
00:39:47.099 --> 00:39:47.639
Yes.

873
00:39:47.639 --> 00:39:52.260
I had Mr. McDermott say entirely...

874
00:39:52.260 --> 00:39:53.400
That is brilliant.

875
00:39:53.460 --> 00:39:54.719
It's a great double.

876
00:39:54.780 --> 00:39:56.880
But that is just Robert Holmes's dark century.

877
00:39:56.940 --> 00:39:57.599
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

878
00:39:57.659 --> 00:40:00.480
Also the way he comes over afterwards and the master says, oh, that

879
00:40:00.480 --> 00:40:00.960
wasn't very fair.

880
00:40:01.019 --> 00:40:02.039
She says, oh, I don't know.

881
00:40:02.099 --> 00:40:03.900
I thought it was crazy.

882
00:40:04.019 --> 00:40:06.179
Just all that yards of bread.

883
00:40:06.239 --> 00:40:08.460
But like he's making it funny.

884
00:40:08.519 --> 00:40:11.579
He's making it terrifying for 10 year olds and funny for people

885
00:40:11.579 --> 00:40:13.920
who are older than that, I think.

886
00:40:13.980 --> 00:40:19.320
And that's a choice that the show doesn't always do intentionally

887
00:40:19.320 --> 00:40:19.559
I think.

888
00:40:19.619 --> 00:40:22.260
I think unintentionally it does it quite a lot in the 60s.

889
00:40:22.320 --> 00:40:26.159
It's a sense of the grotesque that the show never had previously.

890
00:40:26.219 --> 00:40:29.760
The only story I can think of that tried that juxtaposition, not

891
00:40:29.760 --> 00:40:31.559
very successfully is the celestial toy maker.

892
00:40:31.619 --> 00:40:33.059
Yeah, okay.

893
00:40:33.119 --> 00:40:34.139
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

894
00:40:34.199 --> 00:40:37.739
I think the issue with the 60s, as you say, is less it's

895
00:40:37.739 --> 00:40:41.400
unintentional because they just can't realise it in any meaningful

896
00:40:41.400 --> 00:40:43.559
way, whereas at least by now they've got a better chance of

897
00:40:43.559 --> 00:40:45.900
realising it in a way that looks sensible.

898
00:40:46.019 --> 00:40:50.280
Yeah, I mean, the scene with McDermott getting smothered by the

899
00:40:50.280 --> 00:40:52.079
thing is actually funny.

900
00:40:52.199 --> 00:40:56.460
And I also think that the troll doll is funny and her reaction to

901
00:40:56.460 --> 00:41:00.119
it, just like, how kind of this is something for young people.

902
00:41:00.179 --> 00:41:01.199
Do you know what I mean?

903
00:41:01.260 --> 00:41:02.460
Like it's a troll doll.

904
00:41:02.519 --> 00:41:04.320
We don't, like, it's an awful looking thing.

905
00:41:04.380 --> 00:41:07.739
It's something those horrid young people would buy.

906
00:41:07.800 --> 00:41:13.199
And so like all of that stuff is funny, like quite deliberately

907
00:41:13.199 --> 00:41:13.440
funny.

908
00:41:13.500 --> 00:41:17.159
But it gives a lightness to the story.

909
00:41:17.219 --> 00:41:19.260
Otherwise, it'd be just desperately dark with all these people

910
00:41:19.260 --> 00:41:22.860
being asphyxiated. and that's what you do.

911
00:41:22.920 --> 00:41:23.880
It's that lightness.

912
00:41:23.940 --> 00:41:25.860
And I think that's what some often the modern era of the show

913
00:41:25.860 --> 00:41:26.940
fails to grasp.

914
00:41:27.000 --> 00:41:28.559
The premise isn't a joke.

915
00:41:28.619 --> 00:41:33.119
It's just there's lightness added in the way that it's created to

916
00:41:33.119 --> 00:41:35.340
stop it being just so totally grim.

917
00:41:35.400 --> 00:41:37.440
But that's the Dolgado master, isn't it?

918
00:41:37.500 --> 00:41:38.280
Exactly.

919
00:41:38.340 --> 00:41:40.619
I mean, going back to that McDermott scene, he's so the delivery

920
00:41:40.619 --> 00:41:41.340
is so brilliant.

921
00:41:41.400 --> 00:41:43.920
He's suave and then, you know, sit down.

922
00:41:43.980 --> 00:41:47.940
Like, it's just the way he can just throw that out in that way

923
00:41:47.940 --> 00:41:50.159
that makes you really look like, yes, I will do anything you say.

924
00:41:50.219 --> 00:41:54.960
The Delgado Master does really vicious, awful things, but always

925
00:41:54.960 --> 00:41:57.000
with a sense of style and a sense of humour.

926
00:41:57.059 --> 00:41:58.260
And very well dressed.

927
00:41:59.039 --> 00:42:01.980
Simon, if you're going to be evil, you have to be impeccably

928
00:42:01.980 --> 00:42:02.219
dressed.

929
00:42:02.280 --> 00:42:03.000
Exactly.

930
00:42:03.059 --> 00:42:06.360
But also it's the way that the master reacts to things because

931
00:42:06.360 --> 00:42:09.420
when he finds out that one of his devilish plans to get the doctor

932
00:42:09.420 --> 00:42:13.320
hasn't worked and Farrell comes in to tell him, he reacts with

933
00:42:13.320 --> 00:42:16.199
amusement, he's like, you know, oh, yes, you know, the doctor's

934
00:42:16.199 --> 00:42:16.500
fired.

935
00:42:16.559 --> 00:42:16.920
That's fine.

936
00:42:16.980 --> 00:42:20.760
The more he tries to prolong his fate, the more delicious it will

937
00:42:20.760 --> 00:42:21.960
be when it actually happens.

938
00:42:22.019 --> 00:42:23.280
And that's the master.

939
00:42:23.340 --> 00:42:24.960
The master enjoys himself.

940
00:42:25.019 --> 00:42:27.900
And so he has a sense of humour about all his evil plans.

941
00:42:28.139 --> 00:42:30.239
But that's what he's sort of saying.

942
00:42:30.300 --> 00:42:32.760
That's what we get later with Missy, like the line, whatever the

943
00:42:32.760 --> 00:42:34.739
line is with Missy saying that, you know, this is how best friends

944
00:42:34.739 --> 00:42:35.280
behave.

945
00:42:35.340 --> 00:42:36.360
You know, it's all gang.

946
00:42:37.019 --> 00:42:37.679
This is our sting.

947
00:42:37.739 --> 00:42:38.760
This is our texting, yes.

948
00:42:39.000 --> 00:42:43.860
I think there's a point there, and we kind of touched on earlier

949
00:42:43.860 --> 00:42:45.179
there's no plot.

950
00:42:45.239 --> 00:42:47.880
The plot is the master's having fun.

951
00:42:47.880 --> 00:42:49.079
The plot is...

952
00:42:49.139 --> 00:42:52.920
Well, the plot is the master just has lots of nefarious schemes

953
00:42:52.920 --> 00:42:53.880
one after the other.

954
00:42:53.940 --> 00:42:57.539
He's got backup plans after backup plans because he's just having

955
00:42:57.539 --> 00:42:57.840
fun.

956
00:42:57.900 --> 00:43:01.679
But I also think that the end then doesn't land for me as a result

957
00:43:01.679 --> 00:43:02.039
of that.

958
00:43:02.099 --> 00:43:05.820
Like, I don't buy the master's sudden change of heart that, you

959
00:43:05.820 --> 00:43:09.300
know, the nesting's only been appearing for, like, you know, 30

960
00:43:09.300 --> 00:43:12.300
seconds before he decides that it's going to kill him and he has

961
00:43:12.300 --> 00:43:16.019
to change science. how little we care about the plot.

962
00:43:16.079 --> 00:43:17.760
At that point, that's how it's resolved.

963
00:43:17.820 --> 00:43:23.639
The master goes, oh, yeah, wait, that dangly, sparkly thing there

964
00:43:23.639 --> 00:43:25.800
isn't going to be able to tell me apart from anyone else.

965
00:43:25.860 --> 00:43:30.840
It's never occurred to me before, but it is just, I mean, Holmes

966
00:43:30.840 --> 00:43:31.800
knows what he's doing.

967
00:43:31.860 --> 00:43:32.760
He's not an idiot.

968
00:43:32.820 --> 00:43:36.179
And so he's clearly just gone, this plot really doesn't require

969
00:43:36.179 --> 00:43:39.059
much more effort in wrapping it up than these.

970
00:43:39.119 --> 00:43:39.480
Yes.

971
00:43:39.480 --> 00:43:40.440
And you're remembering.

972
00:43:40.500 --> 00:43:41.519
That's me, is that the time?

973
00:43:42.000 --> 00:43:45.480
But you remember that it's been observed before, of course, that

974
00:43:45.480 --> 00:43:49.019
Terrence Dix clearly has 2nd thoughts about it.

975
00:43:49.079 --> 00:43:53.880
And so in the novelisation, which is the 1st encounter I had with

976
00:43:53.880 --> 00:43:57.239
the story, the brigady pulls a gun on the master and says, I will

977
00:43:57.239 --> 00:44:00.300
shoot, you dead, unless you make it go away.

978
00:44:00.360 --> 00:44:01.500
And of course he does.

979
00:44:01.559 --> 00:44:03.059
And that was always right there.

980
00:44:03.119 --> 00:44:06.300
Well, then that's interesting because that's the Terry Sticks

981
00:44:06.300 --> 00:44:10.320
novelisation because I've always felt that the pert we stories, as

982
00:44:10.320 --> 00:44:13.860
a rule, and particularly the 6 parties have the best resolutions

983
00:44:13.860 --> 00:44:19.199
in stories of most of the years of the show, mainly because most

984
00:44:19.199 --> 00:44:22.380
of the time, and especially in the 6 parties, the entirety of the

985
00:44:22.380 --> 00:44:24.480
final episode is the resolution.

986
00:44:24.539 --> 00:44:28.739
The basically the Cliffhanger to part 5 is the final revelation or

987
00:44:28.739 --> 00:44:32.340
the final thing before then we use all of episode 6 to wrap it

988
00:44:32.340 --> 00:44:32.519
up.

989
00:44:32.579 --> 00:44:34.860
It creates this wonderful satisfaction when you get to the end.

990
00:44:34.920 --> 00:44:38.099
Tear of the Ortons is one of my lesser favourite pertly stories

991
00:44:38.099 --> 00:44:39.239
because it does not do that.

992
00:44:39.300 --> 00:44:41.639
And that's what you just said about the novelisation indicates to

993
00:44:41.639 --> 00:44:44.039
me that that's Terrence Dix, a script editor saying, this is how

994
00:44:44.039 --> 00:44:44.639
we write a story.

995
00:44:44.699 --> 00:44:48.239
Yeah, and invariably the ends of those 6 parters are always

996
00:44:48.239 --> 00:44:49.019
something blowing up.

997
00:44:49.079 --> 00:44:50.460
So there's that to look forward to.

998
00:44:50.519 --> 00:44:51.000
Well, exactly.

999
00:44:51.059 --> 00:44:53.519
But rather than it just being the last 5 minutes, it's the last 25

1000
00:44:53.519 --> 00:44:54.659
minutes.

1001
00:44:54.719 --> 00:44:56.699
Yes, the Green Death being a perfect example.

1002
00:44:56.760 --> 00:45:00.000
And also, given how little Robert Holmes actually cares about the

1003
00:45:00.000 --> 00:45:03.599
plot, it's the fact that the radio telescope forms an integral

1004
00:45:03.599 --> 00:45:06.420
part of the climax, and this is the same radio telescope that he

1005
00:45:06.420 --> 00:45:09.480
wired up the bomb 2 in episode one to blow it up.

1006
00:45:10.199 --> 00:45:12.000
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1007
00:45:12.059 --> 00:45:15.000
He was going to go and find another radio telescope after that

1008
00:45:15.000 --> 00:45:15.599
one.

1009
00:45:15.659 --> 00:45:16.980
There are loads of radio telescopes.

1010
00:45:17.039 --> 00:45:19.500
Oh, there's another one lying down the road.

1011
00:45:19.619 --> 00:45:22.440
It's interesting, Simon, that you mentioned the Terror of the

1012
00:45:22.440 --> 00:45:25.860
Autons novelisation because when you read it, and I did a couple

1013
00:45:25.860 --> 00:45:26.519
of years ago.

1014
00:45:26.579 --> 00:45:27.239
I reread it.

1015
00:45:27.300 --> 00:45:29.519
It feels much more like Spearhead from Space.

1016
00:45:29.579 --> 00:45:33.239
And so there's something about the story that is not that far

1017
00:45:33.239 --> 00:45:37.739
removed from the way that season 7 was telling stories, but it's

1018
00:45:37.739 --> 00:45:40.440
the production that is giving it a really different feel.

1019
00:45:41.340 --> 00:45:45.360
I think what's happening here too is a kind of microcosm of the

1020
00:45:45.360 --> 00:45:49.739
entirety of the season because this is a season that has 5 stories

1021
00:45:49.739 --> 00:45:56.340
and each story has the master with a plan that goes horribly wrong

1022
00:45:56.340 --> 00:45:57.780
and he gets to feed it at the end.

1023
00:45:57.840 --> 00:46:02.519
And so this kind of, this kind of collapses 5 of those into one

1024
00:46:02.519 --> 00:46:03.300
two, part story.

1025
00:46:03.360 --> 00:46:06.780
And then we start to dole them out at the rate of one a month or

1026
00:46:06.780 --> 00:46:08.760
so after this.

1027
00:46:08.820 --> 00:46:10.679
It's a bit Scooby-too.

1028
00:46:10.860 --> 00:46:13.320
And it is a strange choice.

1029
00:46:13.380 --> 00:46:16.619
I mean, there's a sense in which we could go to the beginning of

1030
00:46:16.619 --> 00:46:20.760
series 9 with Day of the Daleks and say, now we're doing another

1031
00:46:20.760 --> 00:46:25.619
relaunch of the Pertu era, but one without the master, because

1032
00:46:25.619 --> 00:46:30.059
this was something that couldn't have continued, could it?

1033
00:46:30.239 --> 00:46:32.940
In terms of the master being in every story.

1034
00:46:33.000 --> 00:46:33.599
Yeah, yeah.

1035
00:46:33.659 --> 00:46:36.900
It is actually an interesting choice and it doesn't feel like a

1036
00:46:36.900 --> 00:46:38.280
particularly necessary choice.

1037
00:46:38.340 --> 00:46:41.280
I can understand him being in, say, 3 of the stories, but all

1038
00:46:41.280 --> 00:46:41.639
five.

1039
00:46:41.699 --> 00:46:44.699
And I know in Colony in space, he doesn't appear until sort of the

1040
00:46:44.699 --> 00:46:45.539
2nd half.

1041
00:46:46.139 --> 00:46:48.539
But nevertheless, it is an interesting choice.

1042
00:46:48.840 --> 00:46:52.380
It sort of makes sense in the fiction of the show that he gets

1043
00:46:52.380 --> 00:46:55.440
stuck on Earth at the end of Terror of the Autons, and so he'll

1044
00:46:55.440 --> 00:46:59.639
turn up in Mind of Evil and then Claws of Axos. weirder that he

1045
00:46:59.639 --> 00:47:03.000
then just shows up in the 2nd half of Colony in Space and then

1046
00:47:03.000 --> 00:47:04.860
turns up on Earth again in the demons.

1047
00:47:05.159 --> 00:47:06.780
Yes, indeed.

1048
00:47:16.679 --> 00:47:20.099
I want to sort of give a shout out to, you know, the story as it

1049
00:47:20.099 --> 00:47:23.099
stands now, because, of course, you know, the original 625 line

1050
00:47:23.099 --> 00:47:24.119
tapes are wiped.

1051
00:47:24.179 --> 00:47:26.760
This wasn't part of those repeat seasons that we got in the very

1052
00:47:26.760 --> 00:47:30.239
late 70s and into the 80s that it sort of became, it was part of

1053
00:47:30.239 --> 00:47:32.219
what we talked about last week when Spearhead was changed.

1054
00:47:32.280 --> 00:47:33.840
They said spearheads, Silurians.

1055
00:47:33.900 --> 00:47:35.820
Then they showed this, if you remember Beta.

1056
00:47:35.880 --> 00:47:38.340
And this, of course, like Salurians, was broadcast in black and

1057
00:47:38.340 --> 00:47:38.579
white.

1058
00:47:38.639 --> 00:47:41.460
Now, the problem, of course, with it being a film print, is that

1059
00:47:41.460 --> 00:47:45.719
you've got a film tellersini of film that has been captured on

1060
00:47:45.719 --> 00:47:47.340
video for the broadcast edit.

1061
00:47:47.400 --> 00:47:50.280
So you've got everything that's an exterior shot.

1062
00:47:50.340 --> 00:47:52.920
All the film sequences that have this odd jutter to it, and I'm

1063
00:47:52.920 --> 00:47:55.199
afraid the Blu-ray restoration really suffers at this point.

1064
00:47:55.260 --> 00:47:59.639
It's quite blurry and it's very unfortunate.

1065
00:47:59.699 --> 00:48:02.760
Whereas the studio stuff looks spectacular.

1066
00:48:02.820 --> 00:48:04.559
But does that tell us anything?

1067
00:48:04.619 --> 00:48:07.559
But yeah, Peter, it's just that interesting thing that we had it

1068
00:48:07.559 --> 00:48:11.639
in bits, like seeing Tear of the Ortons, and it was a crappy $16

1069
00:48:11.639 --> 00:48:14.639
film copy that was being brought.

1070
00:48:14.699 --> 00:48:18.179
Yeah, but it was something magical about Silurians, and this was

1071
00:48:18.179 --> 00:48:20.039
the 1st time I'd seen Doctor Who in black and white.

1072
00:48:20.099 --> 00:48:22.679
I was so excited that they were showing black and white Doctor

1073
00:48:22.679 --> 00:48:23.280
Who.

1074
00:48:23.340 --> 00:48:27.480
Like, oh, my God, the door is open and now we're going to see all

1075
00:48:27.480 --> 00:48:29.400
this other stuff becomes possible.

1076
00:48:29.460 --> 00:48:31.380
Which we, in fact, did.

1077
00:48:31.380 --> 00:48:33.480
Which we, in fact, did with a whole complete, complete pertway

1078
00:48:33.480 --> 00:48:34.920
around minus invasion of the dinosaurs.

1079
00:48:34.980 --> 00:48:35.519
That's right.

1080
00:48:35.579 --> 00:48:38.159
And so we saw the we saw the black and white version of Terror of

1081
00:48:38.159 --> 00:48:40.559
the Autons in 1984 and 1986.

1082
00:48:40.860 --> 00:48:45.059
In 1986, it was part of the whole, the entire Pertwee era being

1083
00:48:45.059 --> 00:48:45.539
repeated.

1084
00:48:45.599 --> 00:48:49.500
In 1984, it was part of that mini season, do you remember?

1085
00:48:49.559 --> 00:48:52.559
Assignment of Pertwe episodes, which was Spearhead from Space

1086
00:48:52.559 --> 00:48:56.760
Silurians, Tear of the Autons, Cursipelodon, the Green Death, and

1087
00:48:56.760 --> 00:48:58.679
the 5 part Invasion of the Dinosaurs.

1088
00:48:58.739 --> 00:49:01.320
So it was just like this mini season of things, which had suddenly

1089
00:49:01.320 --> 00:49:03.539
become for sale to the ABC.

1090
00:49:03.599 --> 00:49:04.980
And so they just, they just took them.

1091
00:49:04.980 --> 00:49:08.280
And it was interesting that we talked last week about Spearhead

1092
00:49:08.280 --> 00:49:12.179
often being at the start of a mini run of Pertwi, which was not

1093
00:49:12.179 --> 00:49:14.400
the same stories in 1978, 79.

1094
00:49:14.519 --> 00:49:15.719
So it felt like a start of the show.

1095
00:49:15.780 --> 00:49:19.980
In 1984, we had Spearhead Silurians and then Terror of the Autons

1096
00:49:19.980 --> 00:49:20.699
following each other.

1097
00:49:20.760 --> 00:49:24.539
And so seeing spearhead and terror of the autons back to back

1098
00:49:24.539 --> 00:49:26.219
really informed both of them.

1099
00:49:26.280 --> 00:49:29.099
You thought, oh, okay, you could see the similarities and the

1100
00:49:29.099 --> 00:49:29.579
differences.

1101
00:49:29.760 --> 00:49:32.760
But I also want to build on what you were saying there about

1102
00:49:32.760 --> 00:49:35.639
terror of the autons being in black and white because it did help

1103
00:49:35.639 --> 00:49:35.940
it.

1104
00:49:36.059 --> 00:49:39.000
I think terror of the autons was not meant to be seen in colour.

1105
00:49:39.059 --> 00:49:44.219
I know it was made in colour, but in 1971, less than 10% of the TV

1106
00:49:44.219 --> 00:49:45.719
licenses in Britain were colour.

1107
00:49:45.780 --> 00:49:46.980
Still only 10%.

1108
00:49:47.039 --> 00:49:47.699
That's right.

1109
00:49:47.760 --> 00:49:51.960
So 90% of the terrestrial audience and 100% of the international

1110
00:49:51.960 --> 00:49:54.119
audience were watching it in black and white.

1111
00:49:54.179 --> 00:49:58.440
And that's how the entire per era was seen by the majority of the

1112
00:49:58.440 --> 00:49:58.800
audience.

1113
00:49:58.860 --> 00:50:02.219
I don't think colour licenses outnumbered black and white in the

1114
00:50:02.219 --> 00:50:03.539
UK until 1976.

1115
00:50:03.780 --> 00:50:05.820
So that's the face of evil.

1116
00:50:06.599 --> 00:50:11.400
So when we saw it on black and white, part of the effect was

1117
00:50:11.400 --> 00:50:16.260
undeniably the film Telesini adding the grain, but it was not too

1118
00:50:16.260 --> 00:50:19.920
far removed from watching it on a small screen black and white TV

1119
00:50:19.920 --> 00:50:20.880
in 1971.

1120
00:50:21.059 --> 00:50:25.679
So an image that now looks thin and cartoony on a digital flat

1121
00:50:25.679 --> 00:50:27.480
screen just didn't back then.

1122
00:50:27.480 --> 00:50:30.719
I think maybe most of the audience would have had trouble telling

1123
00:50:30.719 --> 00:50:35.039
the visual style or the presentation of terror the autons apart

1124
00:50:35.039 --> 00:50:36.599
from inferno or even spearhead.

1125
00:50:36.659 --> 00:50:37.619
Exactly.

1126
00:50:37.679 --> 00:50:39.420
And it certainly hides all the cromer key.

1127
00:50:39.480 --> 00:50:40.260
Absolutely.

1128
00:50:40.320 --> 00:50:42.300
That's the point I was going to make, Simon.

1129
00:50:42.360 --> 00:50:43.860
I think that's the thing.

1130
00:50:43.920 --> 00:50:47.579
Doctor Who was not made to be like most television in the 60s and

1131
00:50:47.579 --> 00:50:50.099
70s and even 80s was not made to be rewatched.

1132
00:50:50.159 --> 00:50:54.059
It was made to be broadcast once, maybe repeated again.

1133
00:50:54.119 --> 00:50:58.679
It was being made for a weekly time slot and was being pumped out

1134
00:50:58.679 --> 00:50:59.519
as quickly as possible.

1135
00:50:59.579 --> 00:51:03.719
And so I think they went, oh, we can make this in colour.

1136
00:51:03.719 --> 00:51:06.599
And maybe it'll be broadcasting colour for some people.

1137
00:51:06.780 --> 00:51:11.519
But the fact that it was broadcast in black and white actually

1138
00:51:11.519 --> 00:51:14.940
forgives a lot of the failings of the production.

1139
00:51:15.000 --> 00:51:17.940
On a small screen with imperfect reception.

1140
00:51:18.000 --> 00:51:20.159
Yeah, yeah, yeah. in black and white.

1141
00:51:20.219 --> 00:51:23.639
A lot of what we see is a production reboot, I think, is something

1142
00:51:23.639 --> 00:51:25.079
that we can look at and see now.

1143
00:51:25.139 --> 00:51:27.599
I don't think it was obvious to the audience at the time.

1144
00:51:27.659 --> 00:51:28.619
Oh no, it wouldn't have been.

1145
00:51:28.679 --> 00:51:28.920
No.

1146
00:51:28.980 --> 00:51:33.599
I think though it does represent, though, a reassessment of where

1147
00:51:33.599 --> 00:51:35.099
we were.

1148
00:51:35.159 --> 00:51:40.139
Do we think that series 7 despite its undoubted popularity?

1149
00:51:40.199 --> 00:51:45.420
Now, do we think that it was a blind alley that this was something

1150
00:51:45.420 --> 00:51:47.519
that had to actually happen?

1151
00:51:47.579 --> 00:51:49.139
I don't think it had to happen.

1152
00:51:49.199 --> 00:51:50.159
I think is not quite right.

1153
00:51:50.219 --> 00:51:53.940
I think because, I mean, I'll sort of slightly reiterate and

1154
00:51:53.940 --> 00:51:56.460
expand on what I said last week about Spearhead Spearhead.

1155
00:51:56.519 --> 00:51:59.159
I found back in that 1984 repeat run, Peter.

1156
00:51:59.219 --> 00:52:02.400
Spearhead I found alienating, not because of the story or the

1157
00:52:02.400 --> 00:52:03.840
content, but because of the way it was made.

1158
00:52:03.900 --> 00:52:07.019
I felt the whole film, the I actually felt alienating. didn't feel

1159
00:52:07.019 --> 00:52:09.300
like real Doctor Who. something bizarre about it.

1160
00:52:09.360 --> 00:52:10.920
Salurians, completely on board.

1161
00:52:10.980 --> 00:52:13.019
In fact, I was absolutely wrapped and still am.

1162
00:52:13.079 --> 00:52:16.619
But when I saw that for the 1st time in 84 in black and white, I

1163
00:52:16.619 --> 00:52:17.820
was absolutely wrapped in it.

1164
00:52:17.880 --> 00:52:22.739
And I didn't see at the time a particular jump or change to tear

1165
00:52:22.739 --> 00:52:23.519
of the autons.

1166
00:52:23.579 --> 00:52:27.179
Yes, I think the relaunch such as it is is, yeah, the list short

1167
00:52:27.179 --> 00:52:29.460
character we need to replace her with something which is a little

1168
00:52:29.460 --> 00:52:32.340
bit more accessible for the kiddies, a little bit more of a sort

1169
00:52:32.340 --> 00:52:35.880
of a younger person, so that they can ask, you know, as in fact

1170
00:52:35.880 --> 00:52:37.920
they almost kind of, it's a bit meta when the brigadier actually

1171
00:52:37.920 --> 00:52:40.619
says what you need, doctor, of someone who can hand you your test

1172
00:52:40.619 --> 00:52:42.000
tubes and say how brilliant you are.

1173
00:52:42.059 --> 00:52:44.099
I mean, that is actually the, that is Barrel Letts and Terence

1174
00:52:44.099 --> 00:52:44.760
Dick speaking there.

1175
00:52:44.820 --> 00:52:45.480
Yeah.

1176
00:52:45.480 --> 00:52:50.039
I think season 7 is still in 86 when we saw all 4 of the stories

1177
00:52:50.039 --> 00:52:50.639
here.

1178
00:52:50.699 --> 00:52:52.079
I loved them all.

1179
00:52:52.139 --> 00:52:54.119
I mean, I'm what, 14 at the time.

1180
00:52:54.179 --> 00:52:56.699
Maybe that's the audience that they were trying to go for.

1181
00:52:56.760 --> 00:52:59.820
So I was probably the perfect age to be watching all those stories

1182
00:52:59.820 --> 00:53:02.219
particularly things like ambassadors and Inferno.

1183
00:53:02.280 --> 00:53:07.260
But look, I think they just decide to slightly tweak the direction

1184
00:53:07.320 --> 00:53:09.059
not a wholesale change of direction.

1185
00:53:09.119 --> 00:53:11.219
Yeah, I don't think it's a blind alley.

1186
00:53:11.280 --> 00:53:14.280
I think it's, we've retooled the show, a lot of it worked quite

1187
00:53:14.280 --> 00:53:14.699
well.

1188
00:53:14.760 --> 00:53:19.380
You know, the unit supporting cast is a good idea. within the

1189
00:53:19.380 --> 00:53:22.860
structure, but there were some things that it didn't quite work.

1190
00:53:22.920 --> 00:53:24.119
It's not a blind alley.

1191
00:53:24.179 --> 00:53:27.059
It's just that they're retooling the things that they thought did

1192
00:53:27.059 --> 00:53:28.739
not work from the previous season.

1193
00:53:28.800 --> 00:53:31.199
It's not a wholesale reboot.

1194
00:53:31.260 --> 00:53:32.699
It's a jushing up.

1195
00:53:32.760 --> 00:53:35.820
But it's also the concept, the concepts of season 7 are a little

1196
00:53:35.820 --> 00:53:36.719
bit more highbrow.

1197
00:53:36.780 --> 00:53:37.980
They are a little bit more intellectual.

1198
00:53:38.039 --> 00:53:40.260
They're a little bit more kind of esoteric.

1199
00:53:40.380 --> 00:53:41.699
When season eight.

1200
00:53:41.760 --> 00:53:43.980
They're a bit more, you know, basic base level.

1201
00:53:44.039 --> 00:53:44.820
Yes, yes.

1202
00:53:44.880 --> 00:53:48.119
As however, reboots are softer edged than we think that they are.

1203
00:53:48.179 --> 00:53:51.059
And so Spearhead from Space, I don't think should actually be

1204
00:53:51.059 --> 00:53:54.480
compared to anything because it is its own individual entity.

1205
00:53:54.539 --> 00:53:58.019
The series does not take its cue from spearhead from space going

1206
00:53:58.019 --> 00:53:58.320
forwards.

1207
00:53:58.440 --> 00:54:02.219
And so actually, it's more instructive to compare, say, the

1208
00:54:02.219 --> 00:54:05.159
Silurians to terror of the autons, which, you know, the

1209
00:54:05.159 --> 00:54:06.300
differences are softer.

1210
00:54:06.360 --> 00:54:09.780
But also, as you go forward, the series isn't terror of the autons

1211
00:54:09.780 --> 00:54:10.320
from now on.

1212
00:54:10.380 --> 00:54:12.420
There are stories that are like terror of the autons.

1213
00:54:12.539 --> 00:54:16.079
Claws of Axos, as we've discussed, are quite similar in style and

1214
00:54:16.079 --> 00:54:16.739
presentation.

1215
00:54:16.860 --> 00:54:20.340
But then you look at the mind of evil, and the mind of evil is

1216
00:54:20.340 --> 00:54:22.860
very similar to Inferno, and ambassadors of death.

1217
00:54:22.920 --> 00:54:23.639
Yeah.

1218
00:54:23.639 --> 00:54:27.119
And ambassadors of death, I would say, is actually a more

1219
00:54:27.119 --> 00:54:31.739
illustrative example of season 7 than Spearhead from Spaces.

1220
00:54:31.800 --> 00:54:35.219
And terror of the autons is clearly different from ambassadors of

1221
00:54:35.219 --> 00:54:39.420
death in its presentation because ambassadors still feels like a

1222
00:54:39.420 --> 00:54:39.960
film series.

1223
00:54:40.019 --> 00:54:44.280
Some of it's shot in the studio, but it's mounted and moves like a

1224
00:54:44.280 --> 00:54:45.000
film series.

1225
00:54:45.059 --> 00:54:46.500
Terror of the autons doesn't.

1226
00:54:46.559 --> 00:54:50.039
Terror of the autons is in many ways back to what we got in the

1227
00:54:50.039 --> 00:54:51.179
1960s.

1228
00:54:51.239 --> 00:54:55.619
It's a studio-based program, which studio-based cutting and

1229
00:54:55.619 --> 00:54:56.880
location inserts.

1230
00:54:56.940 --> 00:54:58.800
And so I think that was always going to happen.

1231
00:54:59.280 --> 00:55:04.440
See, again, the 1st time round on Flight Through Entirety, I

1232
00:55:04.440 --> 00:55:10.199
actually found myself liking each story of series 7 less than the

1233
00:55:10.199 --> 00:55:10.739
previous one.

1234
00:55:10.800 --> 00:55:13.679
That's obviously madness, Nathan.

1235
00:55:13.739 --> 00:55:15.000
Yes, evidently.

1236
00:55:15.059 --> 00:55:19.380
And I think part of the thing is that we exile the doctor to earth

1237
00:55:19.380 --> 00:55:23.340
and he spends all of his time in space bases and establishments

1238
00:55:23.340 --> 00:55:27.659
and stuff that bear no resemblance to anything that we have ever

1239
00:55:27.659 --> 00:55:28.199
seen.

1240
00:55:28.260 --> 00:55:35.280
And each story is more heavily based on the scientific research

1241
00:55:35.280 --> 00:55:38.460
institution that it set in.

1242
00:55:38.579 --> 00:55:43.739
We occasionally get to escape from the caves in the Silurians.

1243
00:55:43.800 --> 00:55:45.719
We get to go to Dr. Quinn's cottage or whatever.

1244
00:55:45.780 --> 00:55:49.019
But we don't get to do that in Inferno, for instance.

1245
00:55:49.079 --> 00:55:53.460
So here, in a way, we're laying our cards on the table and saying

1246
00:55:53.460 --> 00:55:58.139
it's the Beacon Hill radio telescope and here we are again, but

1247
00:55:58.139 --> 00:56:02.159
we're also in a circus in Tarminstar, and we're also in Mrs

1248
00:56:02.159 --> 00:56:03.719
Farrell's CSO kitchen.

1249
00:56:03.840 --> 00:56:08.159
And so I think that we did need to do that.

1250
00:56:08.219 --> 00:56:11.039
I think we also needed to go back into space.

1251
00:56:11.099 --> 00:56:15.420
I think it was a baffling decision to have a year of Doctor Who

1252
00:56:15.420 --> 00:56:16.679
where he never leaves the planet.

1253
00:56:16.679 --> 00:56:20.760
And now that we have the time lords back, We're able to do that

1254
00:56:20.760 --> 00:56:22.619
twice a year, I think, from now.

1255
00:56:22.679 --> 00:56:24.119
You mean like 2005?

1256
00:56:24.179 --> 00:56:30.119
But 2005 goes into the past and it goes off, you know, into orbit

1257
00:56:30.119 --> 00:56:30.780
and stuff like that.

1258
00:56:30.840 --> 00:56:32.159
It is a much, much better.

1259
00:56:32.159 --> 00:56:33.900
Well, the doctor goes into orbit in Ambassadors of Dead.

1260
00:56:33.960 --> 00:56:34.619
Well, that is.

1261
00:56:34.980 --> 00:56:37.320
I don't think it's a baffling decision.

1262
00:56:37.380 --> 00:56:39.239
I think it goes back to what you were saying about season 5

1263
00:56:39.239 --> 00:56:41.400
earlier about the fact that it's, you know, it's kind of a

1264
00:56:41.400 --> 00:56:43.079
retooling of the same fundamental story.

1265
00:56:43.199 --> 00:56:46.380
I think they're basically, they're taking away the thing that

1266
00:56:46.380 --> 00:56:49.199
might make it look like a staggering coincidence that they're

1267
00:56:49.199 --> 00:56:50.940
always saying in 20th century.

1268
00:56:51.000 --> 00:56:54.360
So, you know, inferno is for you from the deep in terms of view

1269
00:56:54.360 --> 00:56:55.320
from the deep is not set.

1270
00:56:55.380 --> 00:56:57.780
I mean, set the not too distant future, I guess, but also few from

1271
00:56:57.780 --> 00:56:59.460
the deep is set in, not in the real world.

1272
00:56:59.519 --> 00:57:02.340
Even though it's notionally present day or shortly after the

1273
00:57:02.340 --> 00:57:02.639
present day.

1274
00:57:02.699 --> 00:57:04.980
And there's always a certain amount of course correction that goes

1275
00:57:04.980 --> 00:57:05.400
on.

1276
00:57:05.460 --> 00:57:09.179
Like nothing, nothing is ever a definitive reboot, which the

1277
00:57:09.179 --> 00:57:10.739
series then takes its cue from.

1278
00:57:10.800 --> 00:57:14.880
So you have season 7 and then they tinker with that and go off in

1279
00:57:14.880 --> 00:57:18.239
a new direction season eight, they then tinker with that and move

1280
00:57:18.239 --> 00:57:21.360
back because in both instances, they've gone too far in one

1281
00:57:21.360 --> 00:57:21.780
direction.

1282
00:57:21.840 --> 00:57:26.940
So I would argue that the real format for the series going forward

1283
00:57:26.940 --> 00:57:29.699
in the way that it's shot and the way that it feels, the way that

1284
00:57:29.699 --> 00:57:31.260
it's put together is Day of the Daleks.

1285
00:57:31.380 --> 00:57:32.519
Absolutely.

1286
00:57:32.579 --> 00:57:36.059
David Daleks is when they've completely worked out what the show

1287
00:57:36.059 --> 00:57:38.099
is going to look like, and I think that's the template that's

1288
00:57:38.099 --> 00:57:38.280
used.

1289
00:57:38.280 --> 00:57:41.760
And sound like you're quite correct, yes, that mention of the

1290
00:57:41.760 --> 00:57:42.360
incidental score.

1291
00:57:42.480 --> 00:57:46.079
It's also where Dudley starts to become more samey, and I think

1292
00:57:46.079 --> 00:57:48.119
that becomes his downfall, ultimately.

1293
00:57:54.300 --> 00:57:58.500
Can we finish by talking about the one thing that is established

1294
00:57:58.500 --> 00:58:04.440
here that is still in play in the series as it's being made now

1295
00:58:04.440 --> 00:58:12.239
and that is the one doctor and a female companion, and that female

1296
00:58:12.239 --> 00:58:16.260
companion role is created by Katie Manning.

1297
00:58:16.320 --> 00:58:21.059
And she decides, as we've said before, to play it a bit big.

1298
00:58:21.119 --> 00:58:23.519
She's doing children's TV acting.

1299
00:58:23.579 --> 00:58:27.480
She's young, you know, as a person, but she's also bigging it up.

1300
00:58:27.539 --> 00:58:32.219
And I think that she's terribly underserved by the, you just need

1301
00:58:32.219 --> 00:58:39.659
someone to pass... because she is incredibly competent.

1302
00:58:39.719 --> 00:58:40.500
Absolutely.

1303
00:58:40.500 --> 00:58:45.360
And I think that her reaction to being discovered in the plastics

1304
00:58:45.360 --> 00:58:50.880
factory at the end of episode one is just so wonderful.

1305
00:58:50.940 --> 00:58:53.400
She is so magnificent.

1306
00:58:53.460 --> 00:58:55.139
She's great on the phone.

1307
00:58:55.199 --> 00:58:58.139
You know, she starts to get a little bit annoyed as she's being

1308
00:58:58.139 --> 00:59:01.980
dismissed by people and there's even something in episode 2 where

1309
00:59:01.980 --> 00:59:04.380
she says, oh, you know, just pretend I'm not here.

1310
00:59:04.440 --> 00:59:06.179
And that doesn't really go anywhere.

1311
00:59:06.239 --> 00:59:09.840
But there's that terrific exchange with her and Mike where Mike

1312
00:59:09.840 --> 00:59:12.900
says, I'll just stay here and stay out of the way.

1313
00:59:12.960 --> 00:59:16.019
And, you know, she's being told, no, you can't go up the radio

1314
00:59:16.019 --> 00:59:16.619
telescope.

1315
00:59:16.679 --> 00:59:17.519
No, you can't go here.

1316
00:59:17.579 --> 00:59:18.300
You can't do anything.

1317
00:59:18.360 --> 00:59:20.760
Just say I'm like, Yates is the one who's being sent to make the

1318
00:59:20.760 --> 00:59:21.059
coffee.

1319
00:59:21.119 --> 00:59:22.500
Yeah, yeah.

1320
00:59:22.500 --> 00:59:25.679
But she just smiles and says, oh, yes, of course, I'll do that.

1321
00:59:25.739 --> 00:59:27.119
And then nicks off anyway.

1322
00:59:27.179 --> 00:59:29.699
Yeah, but she gets to save the doctor.

1323
00:59:29.760 --> 00:59:33.360
And there's one moment which has never made me laugh out loud

1324
00:59:33.360 --> 00:59:37.920
before, but really, really, I think, lands perfectly, which is

1325
00:59:37.920 --> 00:59:42.059
where the doctor says, if only esque apology had been included in

1326
00:59:42.059 --> 00:59:42.960
your course.

1327
00:59:42.960 --> 00:59:45.360
And she says, funny you should say that.

1328
00:59:45.420 --> 00:59:48.300
And just produces her hands and waves her fingers.

1329
00:59:48.780 --> 00:59:52.800
It's so funny, it's so perfect, and it is her absolutely landing

1330
00:59:52.800 --> 00:59:54.539
as a worthy companion.

1331
00:59:54.599 --> 00:59:54.780
Exactly.

1332
00:59:54.840 --> 00:59:57.960
But she also acts as this really efficient and competent executive

1333
00:59:57.960 --> 00:59:58.920
assistant to him.

1334
00:59:58.920 --> 01:00:00.539
Like, she looks at the plastic factory.

1335
01:00:00.599 --> 01:00:03.420
She goes and orders stuff from requisition and say, oh, this

1336
01:00:03.420 --> 01:00:04.860
stuff's gonna take a while. sack her.

1337
01:00:04.920 --> 01:00:05.579
Yes, yes.

1338
01:00:05.579 --> 01:00:07.559
She's super enthusiastic.

1339
01:00:07.559 --> 01:00:09.420
All these things that would have been beneath Liz Shaw.

1340
01:00:09.480 --> 01:00:10.380
Yeah.

1341
01:00:10.440 --> 01:00:14.280
She she schmoozes with Mr. Campbell in order to get the equipment

1342
01:00:14.280 --> 01:00:14.639
you know.

1343
01:00:14.639 --> 01:00:16.800
Yes, in time and quicker, you know.

1344
01:00:16.800 --> 01:00:18.840
That is her back and her eyelashes.

1345
01:00:18.840 --> 01:00:20.039
Mrs. Farrell as well.

1346
01:00:20.099 --> 01:00:20.519
Exactly.

1347
01:00:20.579 --> 01:00:21.539
She can do it all.

1348
01:00:21.599 --> 01:00:24.420
But the funny thing is too, is she's the only instance, and even

1349
01:00:24.420 --> 01:00:27.119
Liz doesn't get this, and Sarah Jane certainly doesn't get this.

1350
01:00:27.179 --> 01:00:31.260
She's actually effectively had to apply for the job of the

1351
01:00:31.260 --> 01:00:31.800
companion.

1352
01:00:31.860 --> 01:00:32.639
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1353
01:00:32.639 --> 01:00:34.079
She's actually, I'm your new assistant.

1354
01:00:34.139 --> 01:00:34.980
Like I've just got this job.

1355
01:00:35.039 --> 01:00:37.440
I've got the, it's that sort of meta thing.

1356
01:00:37.500 --> 01:00:40.500
Like she's big cars, but also the character has to apply for the

1357
01:00:40.500 --> 01:00:40.800
position.

1358
01:00:40.860 --> 01:00:42.840
She had to prove she could trip over on cue.

1359
01:00:42.900 --> 01:00:44.460
Yes, yes.

1360
01:00:44.519 --> 01:00:47.039
I think also it's doing a slight disservice to Casey, man, to say

1361
01:00:47.039 --> 01:00:48.539
that she's doing children's TV acting.

1362
01:00:48.599 --> 01:00:52.019
I mean, I think she's doing slightly heightened acting, but the

1363
01:00:52.019 --> 01:00:53.940
fact is, and it's the...

1364
01:00:54.000 --> 01:00:55.739
It's the thing that makes her Exactly.

1365
01:00:55.800 --> 01:00:58.739
And it's the thing that makes her very effective in close-up is

1366
01:00:58.739 --> 01:01:00.719
that she has a wide muppety face.

1367
01:01:00.780 --> 01:01:03.059
And so does John Pertwee.

1368
01:01:03.059 --> 01:01:05.880
And actually, it was...

1369
01:01:05.940 --> 01:01:06.719
Well, exactly.

1370
01:01:06.719 --> 01:01:10.019
It's the thing that works for good Doctor Who actors.

1371
01:01:10.079 --> 01:01:12.300
She has a very expressive facing close-up.

1372
01:01:12.360 --> 01:01:16.559
And, you know, from her long association with Australia, and our

1373
01:01:16.559 --> 01:01:19.559
long association with her, sort of on a semi-personal level.

1374
01:01:19.619 --> 01:01:24.840
She is perhaps the most gorgeous person to play a companion as

1375
01:01:24.840 --> 01:01:24.960
well.

1376
01:01:25.019 --> 01:01:27.840
Bleeds out the screen, doesn't It bleeds out of the screen.

1377
01:01:27.900 --> 01:01:28.980
It is infectious.

1378
01:01:29.039 --> 01:01:32.400
She's such a wonderful person and she brings that into the role.

1379
01:01:32.460 --> 01:01:36.239
And people who can't see. how great Joe is, I think they're not

1380
01:01:36.239 --> 01:01:37.079
looking at the right things.

1381
01:01:37.139 --> 01:01:38.099
Exactly.

1382
01:01:38.219 --> 01:01:41.519
Oh, I think, you know, no Joe, no Sarah Jane.

1383
01:01:41.579 --> 01:01:43.139
I think is absolutely...

1384
01:01:43.320 --> 01:01:49.800
There's a more direct line between Joe and say Rose than there is

1385
01:01:49.800 --> 01:01:51.539
between Sarah and Rose.

1386
01:01:51.599 --> 01:01:53.940
Well, but it's interesting what you said, Nathan, is that Joe is

1387
01:01:53.940 --> 01:01:55.679
actually the template. of the female campaigns.

1388
01:01:55.739 --> 01:01:57.719
We've never had the doctor and female companion before.

1389
01:01:57.780 --> 01:02:01.199
None of the female companions who've shared the screen with a male

1390
01:02:01.199 --> 01:02:03.599
companion at the last the previous 7 years.

1391
01:02:03.659 --> 01:02:07.019
Joe is the template that we use now moving forward and everyone

1392
01:02:07.019 --> 01:02:11.159
else is some kind of deviation or a reaction against, but

1393
01:02:11.159 --> 01:02:13.380
nevertheless, it all comes back to this is how it's done.

1394
01:02:13.559 --> 01:02:16.980
We've had characters and actresses in the past who could have done

1395
01:02:16.980 --> 01:02:17.219
it.

1396
01:02:17.280 --> 01:02:19.619
So if you'd had Wendy Padbury continuing on.

1397
01:02:19.679 --> 01:02:24.659
You could easily see her having the same kind of relationship and

1398
01:02:24.659 --> 01:02:27.900
warmth with John Pertweese doctor that Joe Grant does, but it's

1399
01:02:27.900 --> 01:02:31.260
the 1st time that the companion is ever placed on an equal

1400
01:02:31.260 --> 01:02:33.360
standing with the doctor in the action.

1401
01:02:33.420 --> 01:02:36.900
It's the doctor and his companion rather than the doctor with his

1402
01:02:36.900 --> 01:02:37.500
companions.

1403
01:02:59.039 --> 01:03:02.519
Well, that's all the time we have for this week.

1404
01:03:02.639 --> 01:03:06.659
We'll be back again next week, after jumping ahead about 35 years

1405
01:03:06.659 --> 01:03:10.980
to see what happens when a new doctor makes our show an unmissable

1406
01:03:10.980 --> 01:03:13.980
Yuletide event in the Christmas invasion.

1407
01:03:14.039 --> 01:03:17.880
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts

1408
01:03:17.880 --> 01:03:21.780
and you can keep up with us on our website, 500yearDiary.com, where

1409
01:03:21.780 --> 01:03:24.900
you'll find our social media links as well as links to all of our

1410
01:03:24.900 --> 01:03:29.519
other podcasts, including our other Doctor Who podcasts, Flight

1411
01:03:29.519 --> 01:03:32.699
Through Entirety, and the 2nd great and Bountiful Human Empire.

1412
01:03:32.940 --> 01:03:36.599
Until next time, let's be grateful that there aren't any Doctor

1413
01:03:36.599 --> 01:03:39.360
Who aliens with a natural affinity for latex.

1414
01:03:39.420 --> 01:03:41.880
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

1415
01:03:41.940 --> 01:03:43.139
Ta-ta.

1416
01:03:43.199 --> 01:03:43.980
Bye for now.

1417
01:03:44.039 --> 01:03:44.940
See you later.

1418
01:03:57.000 --> 01:04:00.539
That was 500 year diary, starring Nathan Bottomley, Peter Griffith

1419
01:04:00.539 --> 01:04:01.980
Simon Moore, and James Selwood.

1420
01:04:02.039 --> 01:04:04.619
The theme was composed by Cameron Lamb.

1421
01:04:04.679 --> 01:04:08.639
This episode, Establishment Drag, was recorded on the 17th of

1422
01:04:08.639 --> 01:04:11.699
March 2024 and released on the 28th of April.

1423
01:04:11.760 --> 01:04:16.440
Here at 500 year diary, we would like to apologise for the levity

1424
01:04:16.440 --> 01:04:19.619
with which we treated the death of Mr. McDermott in this episode.

1425
01:04:19.679 --> 01:04:23.639
Sofas continue to be one of the leading causes of death in the

1426
01:04:23.639 --> 01:04:27.960
Western world, whether through falling accidents, ingestion, or

1427
01:04:27.960 --> 01:04:31.019
just lying on the damn things, eating a whole bunch of crisps.

1428
01:04:31.079 --> 01:04:32.639
Be careful out there.

1429
01:04:41.760 --> 01:04:45.840
Okay, this is the stupidest dad joke I've ever done.

1430
01:04:45.900 --> 01:04:47.159
Just wait.

1431
01:04:47.219 --> 01:04:48.059
Let's see if we can beat.

1432
01:04:48.119 --> 01:04:49.079
Okay.

1433
01:04:49.559 --> 01:04:53.940
Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to 500 year diary.

1434
01:04:54.000 --> 01:04:58.260
The only Doctor Who podcast disappointed that this story has so

1435
01:04:58.260 --> 01:05:02.159
little to say about the winemaking environment on the nesting

1436
01:05:02.159 --> 01:05:03.119
protein planets.

1437
01:05:04.800 --> 01:05:07.920
It's not terroir of the...

1438
01:05:07.920 --> 01:05:12.420
Sorry.

1439
01:05:13.260 --> 01:05:17.039
That's probably one of the most middle-class jokes I've ever told

1440
01:05:17.039 --> 01:05:17.280
them.

1441
01:05:17.340 --> 01:05:18.420
Go well.

1442
01:05:18.420 --> 01:05:19.380
Even I didn't get that.

1443
01:05:19.380 --> 01:05:21.719
It's a very middle class podcast.

1444
01:05:21.840 --> 01:05:23.820
I'm the most middle class person.

1445
01:05:24.780 --> 01:05:28.739
I just said this podcast we've already done 3 episodes.

1446
01:05:28.800 --> 01:05:29.159
Yep.

1447
01:05:29.219 --> 01:05:30.179
All right.

1448
01:05:30.239 --> 01:05:32.760
Yeah, 1971 was more of a table wine year.

1449
01:05:34.019 --> 01:05:36.239
More of a...

1450
01:05:36.239 --> 01:05:38.340
I wouldn't say that people understand the joke, that electrical

1451
01:05:38.340 --> 01:05:38.639
attack.

1452
01:05:38.699 --> 01:05:40.800
Best thing about the 70s is the pair of us, Peter.

1453
01:05:40.980 --> 01:05:48.300
That's right It's the 2nd of January 1971.