WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-05-03 at 08:35:51

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Hello, dear listener and welcome to 500 Year Diary.

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The only Doctor Who podcast that serves to rayify and ultimately

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contained the doctor's past in preparation for the show's exit

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from the long 50s and its entry into its new mode of Scruffy

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Beatnik heroism.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm James And I'm Simon.

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It's the 5th of November 1966, and we're still not sure what

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happened on telly this time last week, and we're in no way

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prepared for how strange and unsettling the consequences are about

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to be.

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Something new is about to start, or at least to start again.

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Let's find out what that is as we discuss the power of the

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Daleks.

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So, I guess we're doing this in the absence of a real sense of

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what Patrick Troughton's performance is like.

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Mm.

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It's interesting.

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Like, listening to the soundtracks, and we can only really gauge

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the vocal performance there, it's not as energetic as it would

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become.

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And then listening to the Highlanders.

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It's a lot more energetic than it would become.

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And then really it's during the underwater menace that he settles

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into the character as we sort of know from the more extant stories

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later down the line.

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But there are flashes of it here.

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And even in the little snippets and clips that we have, there are

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flashes of that very animated face, alternating with the dark

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brooding.

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But yeah, it's such a shame we don't have this one visually.

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Yeah.

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The Super 8 fragments, I think, do reveal a lot.

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And now obviously you can't extrapolate about 30 seconds through

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to 2.5 hours, but nevertheless, I think that gives enough sense of

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how beautiful it was.

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And I was reliving this last night when I was looking through all

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of the timeline of destruction.

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There's a great website, which I'm sure Nathan will find out and

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put in the show notes, that goes through basically when

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everything's erased.

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And, um, it actually, what most made me to tears last night

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reading it again, I have a very long history when it comes to

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missing episodes and a passion for them and 0 god, it's painful.

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Because apparently the final prints of some of the episodes were

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not destroyed until 1978 or at least disappeared in 1978.

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Well, yes.

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I think there are other podcasts which delve into this sort of

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stuff more broadly.

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I don't want to claim to be an authority of it, but some of the

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relatively more recent information is that there was a guy who was

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destroying return stuff.

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There's no evidence that we know of, that now missing stuff was

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destroyed, but as late as 1981.

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Yes, intake of breath.

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But, and that could be, I mean, we don't know what was lost.

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But there's something inside me that thinks of all the Zambia

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prints, all of the Singapore prints, all of those things that may

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have been returned.

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Who knows?

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It's speculation.

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But I think the videotapes of power are one of the last to go.

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Fury is the last videotapes to go, power is towards the end.

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But if I can say, we should actually by right type episode six.

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I don't get into the way it's it.

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So, you know how a number of stories, a number of episodes in the

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60s were not recorded, well, they recorded on 35 mil film in that

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the studio output was Celestini directly to 35 mil because that

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was going to be much easier for them to edit.

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Although I think sometimes it was because there wasn't a VT

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machine available.

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So I think the Daleks episode 4 is like that.

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I think episode 5 of Dalek Invasion of Earth, for instance, Space

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Pirates 2 is on 35 mil film.

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Now, those film prints ended up in the film library because that's

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where they were supposed to go.

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There were 3 episodes that were recorded on 35 mil, which we do

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not have.

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Power of Dalek 6, Wheel in Space 5, and Daleks 4.

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Now Dalex 4 is fight because we've got another version of it.

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But by rights, there should be too few missing episodes.

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Because of course, the videotapes were looked after by engineering

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but the films were looked after by the film library.

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And of course, you can't reuse film.

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No, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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I mean, I listened to us talking about this on flight for entirety

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in preparation for this, and I remember making the point that this

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is just about the longest run of missing episode.

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Well, it certainly is now since the discovery of Galaxy 43.

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Yeah, okay.

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And the discovery of enemy and web, it's the longest run.

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Because there used to be 3 equal, I think, 13 episodes.

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But yeah.

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Yeah, yeah, so 10th plant 4 through...

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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And so when we did underwater menace, you know, underwater menace

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is pretty crap, but, you know, Troughton's performance is just

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instantly magical.

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So for a long time, this has been the missing story, whose absence

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from the archives, I felt most keenly.

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Oh, this is definitely my my one.

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Maybe macratera one.

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Oh, look.

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If we're doing if we're doing a specific episode, I'd actually put

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episode 2 of Power of the Daleks, that is my preferred, but as a

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story. because this was one of the ones that was part of the Omni

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Rumour in the early ones.

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And this was once, 0 my god, this was going to be just the best

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thing ever.

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Now we got some good stuff, obviously, but this is perhaps the

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most painful loss.

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More painful than for you from the deep, more painful than Marco

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Polo.

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But yeah, tragic.

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I mean, because we're reintroducing the doctor here, and we're

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used to a way of reintroducing the doctor that is very careful and

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that's built up to over a long period of time and that's sort of

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managed.

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And I guess, I guess the example I want to give is just the

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Eccleston speech at the end of parting of the ways, which is just

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very much a speech to the audience, to an audience who doesn't

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know necessarily about regeneration and has to have it explained

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to them.

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And I'm still going to be the same person and blah, blah, blah.

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Like all of this sort of stuff gets done to try and cushion the

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blow.

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And there's literally no attempt to do anything like that here.

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In fact, if anything, it goes out of its way to be unsettling.

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Yeah.

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In fact, even in episode two, at the end of episode two, Ben's

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still saying, is he really the doctor and the doctor's even

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playing up?

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Yes.

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Yes, he goes, the real doctor.

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Oh, yes.

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Oh, you mean the real doctor?

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Something I thought of when watching it for this podcast.

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I was reminded of the war doctor.

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Now, when Matt Smith says when the war doctor is revealed, yes, I

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was the same man, but I didn't call myself the doctor, is the

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doctor deciding after his, depending on how he regarded his 1st

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regeneration or just the most recent of many, is he still thinking

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about, am I still a doctor?

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Or am I going to be somebody else now?

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Well, you know, if you watch this in the context of twice upon a

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time.

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It is a very crowded regenerator.

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Pit Capaldi around the corner, depending on which version you

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watch, you've either got Matt Smith or Shooty Gatwa standing in

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the console room going, don't worry, it'll be fine.

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Exactly.

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Yes, a lot of witnesses to this one.

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It is interesting to keep coming back to this regeneration in

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light of what we learn later.

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And the concept that maybe it's not the 1st regeneration was made

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explicit in the script, the original script from David Whittaker.

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He had the doctor saying, oh, yeah, I don't like doing this.

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I don't do it unless I absolutely have to.

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I fought it last time and I fought it there.

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Oh, here's an earring I used to wear.

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Yeah, like he'd been through it many times, and they compared in

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the script, the experience of the renewal was compared to him

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experiencing the acid trip, like LSD, and reliving all the worst

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parts of his memories as so like he's in trauma was the idea.

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Yeah, and that's all the shot, that's still there with all the

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shots of him, the headache, the sort of the...

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Yeah, yeah, yeah. and the odd vision and stuff. and stuff, yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, I had actually forgotten that.

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It's kind of funny because you kind of think that it's something

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that sort of hastily cobbled together in order to just get rid of

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Hartnell and have a new actor in the role.

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Yeah, yeah.

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And we're not going to explain it.

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And so it sounds like that's not what Whitaker intended at all.

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Well, if only they'd let Michael Goff do it.

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It's a big encapsulation of Doctor Who never having been the

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vision of one person.

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You know, it's when I get annoyed because I love watching fan

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Doctor Who opening title sequences, which often are better than

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what we get on TV, but people keep putting up created by Sidney

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Newman.

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And it's like, no.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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No, it's like Chuck in Verity and David Whittaker as well, and

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possibly Anthony Coburn.

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And, you know, as we're discovering to her. say that rated.

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That's being edited out.

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But, you know, it's kind of like here we have David Whittaker

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writes a script that's sort of heavy on mythology and then Jerry

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Davis and Dennis Spooner, who's sort of called back in to work on

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the script, go, no, no, no, let's pair it back.

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Let's bring back the mystery, but also David Whittaker overwrite

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scripts.

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And there's evidence of this throughout all of his work on Doctor

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Who that someone has to come in and go, no, David.

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And they're over, they overrun terribly.

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Yes, they would have to be cut right down.

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Yeah.

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Right up to ambassadors have death, which basically from episode 2

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onwards is Terrence Dix, Trevor Ray and Malcolm Hulk.

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Right.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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But here, for instance, there is a scene in episode 3 where Ben

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and the doctor are sent for a medical and the doctor's physiognomy

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just blows up the machine and that's cut out by Dennis Spooner and

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Christopher Barry's like, oh, thank God, that was the most

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atrocious padding.

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What happens in part 2 of the wheel in space?

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The doctor is submitted to a medical and he has 2 hearts and

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everyone's like, oh, he's he's wrecked the machine somehow.

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I really have 2 ups.

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And then we run further with spear from space.

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Yeah, it gets in there eventually.

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Yeah, it gets in there eventually.

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But it just really encapsulates the Doctor Who is by the voices of

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so many people, right down to Patrick Troughton's presentation

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because, of course, famously, he wanted to be disguised and there

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is that story of he wanted to be in blackface.

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It was never done as a makeup test.

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It was immediately vetoed, but he did put on like a fake beard and

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a wind jammer, captain's outfit.

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Yeah, the Harpo Marks wig at one point.

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Yeah.

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And Sidney Newman just went, no, no, no, we want the cosmic hobo.

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Basically, we don't want you in that much makeup.

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And then the Harper Marx Wiig, as you say, came along and it was

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actually Anika Wills, who said, no, that's completely ridiculous.

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Took the wig off Troughton's head and said, comb his hair like a

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beetle.

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You know, so even the actors help create this.

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Yeah, and like they actually had written an initial character

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description for the doctor, which they reworked significantly

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during this story, because, like Troutton kept saying, how about

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we do this?

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Like, how about we just change that?

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Like, just sort of ad-libbing and getting more comfortable with

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the role and then they rewrote his character description by the

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end of the story, like the character description for future

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writers had been significantly reworked because they were feeling

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through it during the recording of this.

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Yeah, I think it also comes down to, you know, Doctor Who has many

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fathers and mothers is partly because of the way television was

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made at the time, particularly in the BBC.

248
00:12:37.139 --> 00:12:39.240
Remember, what we're really watching, and this also explains why

249
00:12:39.240 --> 00:12:40.379
so much doesn't exist.

250
00:12:40.440 --> 00:12:44.759
We watching theatre, which has been recorded for broadcast.

251
00:12:44.879 --> 00:12:48.059
And the process of making theatre, the actors and so on, like with

252
00:12:48.059 --> 00:12:49.679
Anika doing that thing with the hair.

253
00:12:49.740 --> 00:12:52.139
That's the sort of thing that you just do not get as much now.

254
00:12:52.200 --> 00:12:55.139
You do not get the ability for that level of person to contribute

255
00:12:55.139 --> 00:12:58.139
in large scale television and films in a way that you would have

256
00:12:58.139 --> 00:12:58.620
back then.

257
00:12:58.679 --> 00:13:01.019
So it's more kind of collaborative.

258
00:13:01.080 --> 00:13:02.100
It's collaborative.

259
00:13:02.159 --> 00:13:03.779
Like the theatre is much more.

260
00:13:03.840 --> 00:13:06.240
Even big theatre projects are much more, well, apart from the very

261
00:13:06.240 --> 00:13:08.340
big kind of, you know, Broadway musicals, but yeah

262
00:13:08.340 --> 00:13:10.799
traditionally...

263
00:13:10.860 --> 00:13:11.820
I mean, look at wicked.

264
00:13:11.879 --> 00:13:15.840
Wicked was significantly workshopped for about 9 months before it

265
00:13:15.840 --> 00:13:20.519
went to Broadway and completely changed whole numbers because of

266
00:13:20.519 --> 00:13:21.179
the workshopping.

267
00:13:21.240 --> 00:13:25.200
So, like, you actually get a much better product from that

268
00:13:25.200 --> 00:13:26.279
workshopping, I think.

269
00:13:26.340 --> 00:13:28.259
It's a huge loss.

270
00:13:28.320 --> 00:13:31.440
Yeah And Dr. is a mess, and I don't mean that as a majority, but

271
00:13:31.440 --> 00:13:33.299
it's a mess because of the fact that there are so many people

272
00:13:33.299 --> 00:13:36.240
working on it in so many different perspectives across over a long

273
00:13:36.240 --> 00:13:36.779
period of time.

274
00:13:36.840 --> 00:13:37.980
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

275
00:13:38.039 --> 00:13:38.399
That's great.

276
00:13:38.460 --> 00:13:40.320
I mean, that's one of the things I love about it.

277
00:13:40.379 --> 00:13:40.980
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

278
00:13:41.039 --> 00:13:41.340
Yeah.

279
00:13:41.399 --> 00:13:44.820
I think what's really interesting is just the doctor's absolute

280
00:13:44.820 --> 00:13:48.240
refusal to explain what's going on, even though Ben calls him

281
00:13:48.240 --> 00:13:48.539
out.

282
00:13:48.539 --> 00:13:51.539
And we have that thing where we have Polly thinks it's the doctor

283
00:13:51.539 --> 00:13:53.460
and Ben thinks it probably isn't.

284
00:13:53.519 --> 00:13:55.559
And even the doctor's not very sure.

285
00:13:55.679 --> 00:14:00.000
And and what we get is the doctor sort of really becomes the

286
00:14:00.000 --> 00:14:05.039
contents of this chest and the contents of the diary, you know.

287
00:14:05.100 --> 00:14:08.879
And so we go through, and in the chest, we get references to his

288
00:14:08.879 --> 00:14:09.779
old stories.

289
00:14:09.840 --> 00:14:12.720
And then, which almost never happened.

290
00:14:12.779 --> 00:14:14.100
Almost never happened in that era.

291
00:14:14.159 --> 00:14:16.379
Like, weapons is going to market probably 3 years ago.

292
00:14:16.440 --> 00:14:17.879
They mentioned one of the 1st stories.

293
00:14:17.940 --> 00:14:19.019
It's extraordinary.

294
00:14:19.080 --> 00:14:22.200
Yeah, and that sort of clunky foreshadowing.

295
00:14:22.259 --> 00:14:23.220
Extermination.

296
00:14:23.279 --> 00:14:24.000
Yes, yes.

297
00:14:24.059 --> 00:14:24.720
Yeah, yeah.

298
00:14:24.779 --> 00:14:27.059
And it's a piece of metal that doesn't look like anything we've

299
00:14:27.059 --> 00:14:28.500
seen the dialects use before.

300
00:14:28.559 --> 00:14:30.120
Yes, darling.

301
00:14:32.159 --> 00:14:37.440
But, I mean, there's that, and then he's got the 500-year diary.

302
00:14:37.500 --> 00:14:41.039
And so he's got these external objects that kind of represent who

303
00:14:41.039 --> 00:14:46.259
he was and he's not 100% there with identifying with any of that

304
00:14:46.259 --> 00:14:50.399
yet, which is why he keeps calling him the doctor even into sort

305
00:14:50.399 --> 00:14:51.360
of episode two.

306
00:14:51.419 --> 00:14:57.179
And I think he's kind of enjoying annoying Ben to some degree.

307
00:14:57.240 --> 00:15:01.440
Like he's actually kind of enjoying being slightly off putting and

308
00:15:01.440 --> 00:15:05.580
we'll come back to that when we talk about the very final scene of

309
00:15:05.580 --> 00:15:06.360
the episode.

310
00:15:06.419 --> 00:15:10.139
Also, of course, the 1st thing that he does when he arrives on the

311
00:15:10.139 --> 00:15:10.440
planet.

312
00:15:10.500 --> 00:15:13.679
Vulcan is he impersonates someone different.

313
00:15:13.679 --> 00:15:18.659
So he's impersonating another dead guy for like most of the

314
00:15:18.659 --> 00:15:19.200
episode.

315
00:15:19.259 --> 00:15:22.860
And I think that that's very deliberate and very telling.

316
00:15:22.980 --> 00:15:25.080
It's interesting, though.

317
00:15:25.139 --> 00:15:27.899
The way the doctor deals with the doctor's character has already

318
00:15:27.899 --> 00:15:28.259
changed.

319
00:15:28.320 --> 00:15:31.019
And there are hints of it and things like savages and war machines

320
00:15:31.019 --> 00:15:31.679
and so on like that.

321
00:15:31.740 --> 00:15:34.620
But I think there is a much bigger jump when we come to Power of

322
00:15:34.620 --> 00:15:37.019
the Daleks in terms of the doctor saying, no, we must stay.

323
00:15:37.080 --> 00:15:37.919
We't go back to the TARDIS.

324
00:15:37.980 --> 00:15:40.320
We going to stay and sort this out because I know what's going to

325
00:15:40.320 --> 00:15:40.559
happen.

326
00:15:40.620 --> 00:15:43.080
And you also get a kind of bit of a presaging of 2 of the

327
00:15:43.080 --> 00:15:46.320
cybermany kind of things when with access to the capsule and he

328
00:15:46.320 --> 00:15:47.580
sort of helps them get in.

329
00:15:47.700 --> 00:15:48.659
Yeah, yeah.

330
00:15:48.720 --> 00:15:50.820
But then later kind of denies, no, no, you can't do this, you have

331
00:15:50.820 --> 00:15:51.419
to destroy them.

332
00:15:51.480 --> 00:15:55.080
But then the very end of the story, Ben accuses him saying, Polly

333
00:15:55.080 --> 00:15:57.240
one of them accuses him of knowing what was going to happen or

334
00:15:57.240 --> 00:16:00.059
knowing what could have unfolded and he's all kind of

335
00:16:00.059 --> 00:16:00.840
unchalantable.

336
00:16:00.960 --> 00:16:02.100
No, no, he laughs.

337
00:16:02.159 --> 00:16:04.320
Yes, yeah, yeah. laughs in response.

338
00:16:04.379 --> 00:16:05.639
We'll talk more about that a little bit later.

339
00:16:05.700 --> 00:16:09.840
But this story is now historical because it's set in 2020.

340
00:16:09.960 --> 00:16:10.860
Oh, is that?

341
00:16:10.860 --> 00:16:12.480
I don't buy it.

342
00:16:12.480 --> 00:16:14.820
Just because the BBC continuity announcer says something that's in

343
00:16:14.820 --> 00:16:16.500
the Red Air Times does not make it.

344
00:16:20.820 --> 00:16:23.519
So Star Trek's already a thing, right?

345
00:16:23.580 --> 00:16:25.679
And I don't know whether it's shown in Britain yet, but it's

346
00:16:25.679 --> 00:16:27.360
curious that they actually call the planet Vulcan.

347
00:16:27.419 --> 00:16:31.320
Well, I mean, like Star Trek has started in September of that

348
00:16:31.320 --> 00:16:31.500
year.

349
00:16:31.559 --> 00:16:33.419
And this is November.

350
00:16:33.480 --> 00:16:34.139
This is November.

351
00:16:34.200 --> 00:16:34.679
Yeah.

352
00:16:34.740 --> 00:16:39.779
And I believe in the 1st couple of episodes, it's referred to as

353
00:16:39.779 --> 00:16:40.679
volcanus.

354
00:16:40.740 --> 00:16:41.759
It's not all.

355
00:16:41.820 --> 00:16:43.860
Yeah, at one point, Spock is referred to as volcanian.

356
00:16:43.860 --> 00:16:46.080
And we see maps saying volcanous.

357
00:16:46.200 --> 00:16:51.240
But by that point by November, it had been named Vulcan in an

358
00:16:51.240 --> 00:16:52.320
episode of Star Trek.

359
00:16:52.379 --> 00:16:55.200
So, like, there's no way that the production team would have seen

360
00:16:55.200 --> 00:16:56.340
that.

361
00:16:56.399 --> 00:16:57.000
There was no internation.

362
00:16:57.059 --> 00:16:59.039
It's an obvious thing to do.

363
00:16:59.100 --> 00:17:03.840
I mean, Venus is Vulcan's wife in Greek mythology.

364
00:17:03.899 --> 00:17:07.079
So you just pick another kind of figure, yeah.

365
00:17:07.140 --> 00:17:10.559
There's also the fact that Star Trek is not shown in the UK until

366
00:17:10.559 --> 00:17:15.000
either late 1969 or mid-1970.

367
00:17:15.180 --> 00:17:18.420
It actually takes Doctor Who slot either after season 6 or season

368
00:17:18.420 --> 00:17:18.720
seven.

369
00:17:18.779 --> 00:17:19.380
I can't.

370
00:17:19.440 --> 00:17:20.940
I think it's after, I think it's after 6 actually.

371
00:17:21.000 --> 00:17:21.960
Yeah, because they go colour.

372
00:17:22.019 --> 00:17:22.799
Yes, that makes sense.

373
00:17:22.859 --> 00:17:24.420
Introduction, yeah.

374
00:17:24.480 --> 00:17:27.299
Yeah, it's a matter of following the tradition of naming planets

375
00:17:27.299 --> 00:17:28.799
after ancient day.

376
00:17:28.859 --> 00:17:33.119
It's interesting that bucking Terry Nation tradition.

377
00:17:33.180 --> 00:17:34.559
This is not a volcanic planet.

378
00:17:34.920 --> 00:17:38.279
Well, maybe it's volcanic with mercury, right?

379
00:17:38.339 --> 00:17:38.700
Mercury.

380
00:17:38.700 --> 00:17:40.859
Yeah, like IO is sulphur.

381
00:17:40.920 --> 00:17:41.400
Yeah that's true.

382
00:17:41.460 --> 00:17:42.720
So maybe a mercury vulcated.

383
00:17:42.779 --> 00:17:45.480
Yeah, but I think it's also David Whitaker going, mercury pretty.

384
00:17:45.539 --> 00:17:48.059
Yeah, no, because he did mercury before.

385
00:17:48.119 --> 00:17:50.279
You know, like the, we've had a mercury.

386
00:17:50.279 --> 00:17:53.400
Loves his science, boy's own adventure stuff with all of the, like

387
00:17:53.400 --> 00:17:57.180
the Dalek having to recite the chemical formulas and...

388
00:17:57.240 --> 00:17:58.440
It's all such Whittaker.

389
00:17:58.500 --> 00:18:01.440
But I mean, there is something kind of alchemical about mercury.

390
00:18:01.500 --> 00:18:04.980
This is what Xander goes on about at great length, is the idea

391
00:18:04.980 --> 00:18:08.640
that the doctor is, a mercurial figure, particularly in this

392
00:18:08.640 --> 00:18:09.779
incarnation.

393
00:18:09.839 --> 00:18:14.279
And, you know, Mercury is heavily associated with his kind of

394
00:18:14.279 --> 00:18:16.859
weird childishness in the Daleks.

395
00:18:16.920 --> 00:18:20.160
You know, he drops the fluid link and we have to go back to the

396
00:18:20.160 --> 00:18:21.359
city for some more episodes.

397
00:18:22.619 --> 00:18:24.660
I won't watch them.

398
00:18:27.720 --> 00:18:31.019
But yeah, I was thinking about the mercury thing as well, because

399
00:18:31.019 --> 00:18:34.980
I'm kind of like, it serves the nation function of separating them

400
00:18:34.980 --> 00:18:35.759
from the TARDIS.

401
00:18:35.819 --> 00:18:37.200
But as Polly and Ben point out.

402
00:18:37.259 --> 00:18:38.579
We can still walk around out there.

403
00:18:38.640 --> 00:18:41.339
We can still go back to the TARDIS if we want.

404
00:18:41.400 --> 00:18:44.519
I was kind of thinking, okay, so why Mercury?

405
00:18:44.579 --> 00:18:47.099
And I was thinking about that scene where Ben tells Polly not to

406
00:18:47.099 --> 00:18:47.519
touch it.

407
00:18:47.640 --> 00:18:50.700
And it's like, Mercury is beautiful, right?

408
00:18:50.759 --> 00:18:52.140
It is shimmery.

409
00:18:52.200 --> 00:18:53.160
It is shiny.

410
00:18:53.220 --> 00:18:57.660
And we know in the modern day that it is dangerous to touch.

411
00:18:57.839 --> 00:19:03.599
The Daleks represent this technological advance for the colony and

412
00:19:03.599 --> 00:19:06.779
something they can use to barter with earth.

413
00:19:06.839 --> 00:19:11.460
And, you know, it's implied that there is sort of colonial tension

414
00:19:11.460 --> 00:19:16.079
with the home planet because the examiners arrived and no one

415
00:19:16.079 --> 00:19:17.460
knows why and oh, they're spying on us.

416
00:19:17.519 --> 00:19:19.980
This could give us leverage over Earth.

417
00:19:20.039 --> 00:19:24.960
So I do actually think for, you know, for once, it's thematically

418
00:19:24.960 --> 00:19:27.960
relevant to sort of have the mercury there because it doesn't play

419
00:19:27.960 --> 00:19:29.400
any function later on in the story.

420
00:19:29.460 --> 00:19:34.259
No, I mean, and it's quicksilver. a liquid and it's a metal and

421
00:19:34.259 --> 00:19:39.299
it's always been a sort of very strange thing and it, you know

422
00:19:39.299 --> 00:19:41.579
mercurial means changing constantly.

423
00:19:41.640 --> 00:19:44.940
And we've got the doctor doing that here.

424
00:19:45.000 --> 00:19:48.059
I think it's a Whittaker thing, though, isn't it?

425
00:19:48.180 --> 00:19:50.039
think it's just a whittier thing, the Mercury. just loves it.

426
00:19:50.099 --> 00:19:52.799
And it is immediately alien world.

427
00:19:52.859 --> 00:19:57.000
Yes, yes, it's not pools of acid and stuff. acid.

428
00:19:57.059 --> 00:19:58.200
Now mercury. that's right.

429
00:19:58.259 --> 00:19:59.700
Enough mercury.

430
00:20:00.059 --> 00:20:03.539
So the thing about the colony, I think, is really kind of

431
00:20:03.539 --> 00:20:09.779
interesting, because I don't quite know how to read what's going

432
00:20:09.779 --> 00:20:10.740
on there politically.

433
00:20:10.799 --> 00:20:16.500
So it's clear that there are rebels and Bragen, the head of

434
00:20:16.500 --> 00:20:21.359
security, who is the wonderful Bernard Archard, who was Marcus

435
00:20:21.359 --> 00:20:22.559
Carmen.

436
00:20:22.619 --> 00:20:26.759
And he talks about their newspapers and the small acts of sabotage

437
00:20:26.759 --> 00:20:28.680
newspapers. hilarious.

438
00:20:28.680 --> 00:20:29.640
It's very delightful.

439
00:20:29.700 --> 00:20:31.200
It's like their notice board.

440
00:20:31.259 --> 00:20:32.039
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

441
00:20:32.099 --> 00:20:33.539
That gives the messages.

442
00:20:33.599 --> 00:20:35.519
There's their notice board, which has bad wolf.

443
00:20:37.319 --> 00:20:40.019
Just tremendous.

444
00:20:40.019 --> 00:20:40.980
He was starting earlier.

445
00:20:41.039 --> 00:20:45.480
I did actually freeze frame and read the notice board, which did

446
00:20:45.480 --> 00:20:47.880
seem to be about milk supplies or something like that.

447
00:20:48.059 --> 00:20:48.960
Oh, this is on the holiday.

448
00:20:49.019 --> 00:20:49.500
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

449
00:20:49.559 --> 00:20:52.680
One of the one of the like radios or something has from Magpie

450
00:20:52.680 --> 00:20:53.519
Electronics.

451
00:20:53.579 --> 00:20:54.299
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

452
00:20:54.660 --> 00:20:58.380
And I don't quite know how to read it because because they're

453
00:20:58.380 --> 00:21:01.920
rebels, I am inclined to think that I'm meant to be on their

454
00:21:01.920 --> 00:21:03.119
side.

455
00:21:04.559 --> 00:21:05.220
1966.

456
00:21:05.339 --> 00:21:09.839
Well, it is 1966, but I guess the closest that we've had is the

457
00:21:09.839 --> 00:21:11.339
savages at this point.

458
00:21:11.700 --> 00:21:15.900
And later on when we have rebels, you know, because the doctor

459
00:21:15.900 --> 00:21:19.079
will eventually turn into someone who overthrows kind of

460
00:21:19.079 --> 00:21:19.980
authoritarian regime.

461
00:21:20.039 --> 00:21:20.700
Yeah, that's right.

462
00:21:20.759 --> 00:21:23.579
And so the rebels tend to be the good guys, but I do think that we

463
00:21:23.579 --> 00:21:26.700
are actually a bit early for that as the obvious reading it.

464
00:21:26.759 --> 00:21:28.200
I might be back reading it into it.

465
00:21:28.259 --> 00:21:31.380
There are rebels when, for instance, the Daleks invade Earth.

466
00:21:31.440 --> 00:21:32.099
There are rebels.

467
00:21:32.160 --> 00:21:38.700
So we've already had rebels in that way or when the Xerons are

468
00:21:38.700 --> 00:21:39.180
invaded.

469
00:21:39.240 --> 00:21:41.279
They are the rebels, but we're sympathising with them because they

470
00:21:41.279 --> 00:21:42.119
are the invaded.

471
00:21:42.180 --> 00:21:45.059
Yeah, I think a more accurate way of reading this is that

472
00:21:45.059 --> 00:21:46.019
everybody is a bastard.

473
00:21:46.079 --> 00:21:46.440
Yeah.

474
00:21:46.500 --> 00:21:48.720
Oh, no, I absolutely think that that's the reading.

475
00:21:48.779 --> 00:21:50.279
No, I'm not quite prepared to go that far.

476
00:21:50.339 --> 00:21:54.000
Well, I think that what it is because we never find out what the

477
00:21:54.000 --> 00:21:58.619
what the rebels want and what their grievances are.

478
00:21:58.680 --> 00:21:59.160
No, we don't.

479
00:21:59.220 --> 00:22:04.319
And it seems like the governor that Henschel is kind of

480
00:22:04.319 --> 00:22:06.299
politically popular.

481
00:22:06.480 --> 00:22:10.619
And I mean, the closest thing that we get to a conversation.

482
00:22:10.680 --> 00:22:12.240
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

483
00:22:12.299 --> 00:22:15.059
The closest we get to an actual political conversation is a

484
00:22:15.059 --> 00:22:18.720
conversation between Janley and Rezno, where Rezno's clearly kind

485
00:22:18.720 --> 00:22:21.660
of against the rebels and Janley's, one of them, and he knows

486
00:22:21.660 --> 00:22:21.960
that.

487
00:22:23.220 --> 00:22:27.119
Well, yeah, they have this sort of angry conversation with one

488
00:22:27.119 --> 00:22:27.599
another.

489
00:22:27.660 --> 00:22:31.440
And then Leicesterson says, this is a scientific laboratory.

490
00:22:31.500 --> 00:22:33.779
This is no place for your politics, and we put a stop to it.

491
00:22:33.839 --> 00:22:39.119
But that whole political thing, it's not explained in any way, but

492
00:22:39.119 --> 00:22:43.319
it does seem to be, this is the sort of thing that human beings do

493
00:22:43.319 --> 00:22:46.440
and this is the sort of context in which human beings regularly

494
00:22:46.440 --> 00:22:47.400
kill one another.

495
00:22:47.460 --> 00:22:51.000
But there's also, I think it's towards the end of the last

496
00:22:51.000 --> 00:22:51.420
episode.

497
00:22:51.480 --> 00:22:55.799
There's an interesting line between Quinn and Valmar where he

498
00:22:55.799 --> 00:23:00.839
basically says, oh, you know, Henshaw, you know, he wasn't a bad

499
00:23:00.839 --> 00:23:01.140
man.

500
00:23:01.200 --> 00:23:05.519
Yeah, he was a bit stuffy, a bit stuck in his ways, but overall, he

501
00:23:05.519 --> 00:23:08.220
actually cared about this colony and wanted to do good by it.

502
00:23:08.279 --> 00:23:08.880
Yeah.

503
00:23:08.880 --> 00:23:10.500
What's that to Velma?

504
00:23:10.559 --> 00:23:11.099
that to the doctor?

505
00:23:11.160 --> 00:23:12.359
That was to the doctor.

506
00:23:12.480 --> 00:23:16.859
But Quinn and Velma do sort of represent the 2 sides by the end of

507
00:23:16.859 --> 00:23:19.380
it and agree to work together to rebuild the column.

508
00:23:19.440 --> 00:23:20.039
Yeah, yeah.

509
00:23:20.099 --> 00:23:24.119
So if you think about colonialism at the time and the Reish Empire

510
00:23:24.119 --> 00:23:27.539
is well on the way to being dismantled when this goes out, but

511
00:23:27.539 --> 00:23:30.480
nevertheless, there are still governors of Kong and all that sort

512
00:23:30.480 --> 00:23:32.700
of stuff and, you know, all the African states are still kind of

513
00:23:32.700 --> 00:23:33.900
getting independence around this time.

514
00:23:33.960 --> 00:23:36.359
So it's quite clear that there is no democracy on this planet

515
00:23:36.359 --> 00:23:39.539
because the governor would have been sent by Earth as a basically

516
00:23:39.539 --> 00:23:41.039
a bureaucrat, right?

517
00:23:41.099 --> 00:23:43.619
Quinn's the deputy governor and Breagan's head of security or

518
00:23:43.619 --> 00:23:43.859
whatever.

519
00:23:43.920 --> 00:23:45.839
They are bureaucrats running a colony.

520
00:23:45.900 --> 00:23:48.000
There doesn't seem to be any evidence at all that there is any

521
00:23:48.000 --> 00:23:50.099
kind of democratic process within the colony itself.

522
00:23:50.220 --> 00:23:53.819
Having said that, I don't get the sense that the rebels are

523
00:23:53.819 --> 00:23:57.059
democratic revolutionaries.

524
00:23:57.119 --> 00:23:59.700
They're not trying to say we want to be able to vote for our

525
00:23:59.700 --> 00:24:00.299
governor.

526
00:24:00.359 --> 00:24:01.859
More rebel than a rebel.

527
00:24:01.920 --> 00:24:03.000
Well exactly.

528
00:24:03.059 --> 00:24:05.220
It's interesting, this could be just me.

529
00:24:05.279 --> 00:24:07.440
I view the rebels as communists.

530
00:24:07.500 --> 00:24:10.559
And I'm wondering whether they're supposed to be viewed as

531
00:24:10.559 --> 00:24:12.839
communists because Bragan is a fascist.

532
00:24:12.900 --> 00:24:15.119
As soon as he assumes the position of governing.

533
00:24:15.180 --> 00:24:19.500
Yes, puts on lovely, lovely, you know, the epaulettes and things

534
00:24:19.500 --> 00:24:20.339
badges and things.

535
00:24:20.460 --> 00:24:22.440
That is Hugo Boss.

536
00:24:22.500 --> 00:24:23.220
Yes, exactly.

537
00:24:23.279 --> 00:24:28.799
And for me, Quinn and Hensel are the centrists, are the ones

538
00:24:28.799 --> 00:24:32.700
trying to manage, as best they can, the divisions and just try and

539
00:24:32.700 --> 00:24:35.460
get us to tomorrow and make sure that we get to next week and next

540
00:24:35.460 --> 00:24:35.700
year.

541
00:24:35.759 --> 00:24:41.880
So Janley and Bragan are trying to use the communists to overthrow

542
00:24:41.880 --> 00:24:45.420
the status quo so that they can then seize power as the kind of

543
00:24:45.420 --> 00:24:46.440
more fascistic.

544
00:24:46.500 --> 00:24:48.480
Because, of course, if what is the 1st thing Reagan does, he

545
00:24:48.480 --> 00:24:49.619
institutes martial law.

546
00:24:49.680 --> 00:24:50.579
Yeah, yeah.

547
00:24:50.640 --> 00:24:54.779
But I think I think because we don't get any specific idea of the

548
00:24:54.779 --> 00:24:57.839
grievances and the problems that we have to read. it in.

549
00:24:57.900 --> 00:24:58.980
What's pencil doing wrong?

550
00:24:59.039 --> 00:24:59.759
Yeah, that's right.

551
00:24:59.819 --> 00:25:05.339
I think that that makes it much more just a political thing

552
00:25:05.339 --> 00:25:09.180
because I think one of the things that the Daleks do is that they

553
00:25:09.180 --> 00:25:14.759
comment on what's happening in the human realm.

554
00:25:14.880 --> 00:25:18.180
And so we'll get to that, I think, when we talk about the Daleks

555
00:25:18.180 --> 00:25:18.779
in a moment.

556
00:25:18.839 --> 00:25:22.200
But I think there's a deliberate generality towards that.

557
00:25:22.259 --> 00:25:25.619
If they were sort of complaining about, you know, methane rations

558
00:25:25.619 --> 00:25:26.519
or something tedious.

559
00:25:26.640 --> 00:25:27.240
Yes.

560
00:25:27.240 --> 00:25:27.779
You know what I mean?

561
00:25:27.839 --> 00:25:30.420
Yeah, if they had space reasons for their thing.

562
00:25:30.480 --> 00:25:32.819
That would have been much worse and we just sort of talking about

563
00:25:32.819 --> 00:25:34.079
political activity.

564
00:25:34.140 --> 00:25:36.119
I feel it stronger because we don't really know.

565
00:25:36.119 --> 00:25:36.539
Yes.

566
00:25:36.599 --> 00:25:37.440
We don't need to know.

567
00:25:37.500 --> 00:25:39.779
There's obviously stuff going on that they're dissatisfied with.

568
00:25:39.900 --> 00:25:40.259
Yeah.

569
00:25:40.319 --> 00:25:46.019
And it also means that we as viewers don't, we don't hate Hansel.

570
00:25:46.079 --> 00:25:47.579
We don't hate Velma.

571
00:25:47.640 --> 00:25:49.079
I hate Keble.

572
00:25:49.140 --> 00:25:52.559
I would argue we don't even hate Janley all that much.

573
00:25:52.619 --> 00:25:53.579
Oh, no, we don't.

574
00:25:53.700 --> 00:25:55.859
Although, she's very brutal.

575
00:25:55.920 --> 00:26:00.359
That thing, where, where, it's Resno, isn't it?

576
00:26:00.359 --> 00:26:04.140
is killed, and we're told, and I think we're inclined to believe

577
00:26:04.140 --> 00:26:08.160
it, that he's just in hospital. and we've got no way of knowing

578
00:26:08.160 --> 00:26:08.940
that that's not true.

579
00:26:09.000 --> 00:26:11.519
And then later on we discovered that she's just dragged his body

580
00:26:11.519 --> 00:26:14.880
into a mercury swamp after he was killed by the Daleks.

581
00:26:14.940 --> 00:26:18.660
Actually, like, it's not even, oh, she thinks he's unconscious and

582
00:26:18.660 --> 00:26:21.539
then realises like, she knows he's dead when she's checking.

583
00:26:21.599 --> 00:26:25.319
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. lies about it. to use it later against

584
00:26:25.319 --> 00:26:26.099
Leicesterson.

585
00:26:26.160 --> 00:26:28.980
And Velma does say later she's not as bad as you think.

586
00:26:29.880 --> 00:26:34.380
Because he was like, he was like her boyfriend or something and he

587
00:26:34.380 --> 00:26:38.339
kind of overhears her chatting with Brake and about killing all

588
00:26:38.339 --> 00:26:38.940
the rebels.

589
00:26:39.059 --> 00:26:39.960
Yes.

590
00:26:40.019 --> 00:26:44.279
I'm always sympathising with Hensel and Quinn as the people who

591
00:26:44.279 --> 00:26:46.319
and you know, Quinn, because Quinn is trying to warn Hensel about

592
00:26:46.319 --> 00:26:49.380
you know, you can't trust Bragen, you can't just, you know, you're

593
00:26:49.380 --> 00:26:50.880
not listening to me, provide the advice.

594
00:26:50.940 --> 00:26:53.460
I think because we don't get a sense of what their grievance

595
00:26:53.460 --> 00:26:56.519
really is, it's in some respects, it's just that, well, we just

596
00:26:56.519 --> 00:26:57.420
think we can do a better job.

597
00:26:57.480 --> 00:26:59.819
And I think that is actually a thing.

598
00:26:59.940 --> 00:27:02.519
I was actually going to put it, and I wonder whether this is a

599
00:27:02.519 --> 00:27:05.460
Whittakerrism, going back to the birth of the show, the idea of

600
00:27:05.460 --> 00:27:06.240
historicals.

601
00:27:06.299 --> 00:27:09.960
There is something about this, which feels like it's happening in

602
00:27:09.960 --> 00:27:11.400
the context of an historical event.

603
00:27:11.519 --> 00:27:17.039
Like, I think all of that political chicanery is going on to, it's

604
00:27:17.039 --> 00:27:20.160
a bit of world building, but it is, it's, it's this idea that the

605
00:27:20.160 --> 00:27:23.700
doctor and co have arrived in this place where this stuff is

606
00:27:23.700 --> 00:27:24.059
happening.

607
00:27:24.119 --> 00:27:27.000
It's just the fact that we don't know historically what it is.

608
00:27:27.059 --> 00:27:28.380
But it does have that feeling.

609
00:27:28.380 --> 00:27:30.480
And then the Dalek stuff is overlaid onto that.

610
00:27:30.539 --> 00:27:32.640
And I think that's one of the reasons why it's so powerful and

611
00:27:32.640 --> 00:27:34.500
successful. as a story.

612
00:27:34.559 --> 00:27:39.359
Well, you know, Whittaker's perspective on historical intervention

613
00:27:39.359 --> 00:27:43.799
in Doctor Who, he outlines at the beginning of the crusade

614
00:27:43.799 --> 00:27:48.480
novelisation, which is basically, even if the doctor and his

615
00:27:48.480 --> 00:27:53.400
friends were to influence an historical event like telling a

616
00:27:53.400 --> 00:27:56.460
military leader not to turn up, something else would happen to

617
00:27:56.460 --> 00:27:57.480
make sure it happens.

618
00:27:57.539 --> 00:27:59.819
So it's therefore interesting that...

619
00:27:59.819 --> 00:28:01.079
And that's basically the Aztecs line.

620
00:28:01.140 --> 00:28:02.279
Yes, yes, effectively.

621
00:28:02.339 --> 00:28:05.160
So it's therefore interesting that as opposed to the Rosa line.

622
00:28:05.220 --> 00:28:05.700
Yeah.

623
00:28:06.480 --> 00:28:12.299
It's therefore interesting that the doctor at no point attempts to

624
00:28:12.299 --> 00:28:14.700
influence the politics of the colony.

625
00:28:14.759 --> 00:28:19.680
The doctor's sole thing is attempting to stop the Daleks.

626
00:28:19.799 --> 00:28:21.539
And that's the thing.

627
00:28:21.599 --> 00:28:25.740
As soon as Bragen replaces Hensel, The doctor's still saying to

628
00:28:25.740 --> 00:28:28.140
Bragan, right, well, then you need to stop the doctor.

629
00:28:28.440 --> 00:28:31.259
You know, the doctor doesn't care that this fascist has taken over

630
00:28:31.259 --> 00:28:32.279
this little human colony.

631
00:28:32.339 --> 00:28:34.680
Oh, well, stop the Daleks, please.

632
00:28:34.799 --> 00:28:37.799
But also, isn't it yes, but isn't it interesting that the doctor

633
00:28:37.799 --> 00:28:42.420
until the very end, the doctor's trying to get the authority to

634
00:28:42.420 --> 00:28:43.500
stop them?

635
00:28:43.559 --> 00:28:44.279
Yes.

636
00:28:44.339 --> 00:28:46.740
He's not saying, well, they're not doing anything about it, so I'm

637
00:28:46.740 --> 00:28:48.480
going to plant a bomb or I'm going to do whatever.

638
00:28:48.539 --> 00:28:51.299
He only does that when it's basically there's no other way.

639
00:28:51.359 --> 00:28:55.500
Well, early on, he does, when there's just one Dalek activator.

640
00:28:55.559 --> 00:28:56.759
He does try to overload it.

641
00:28:56.819 --> 00:29:00.180
He makes he makes friends with Leicesterson and then throws a

642
00:29:00.180 --> 00:29:00.900
switch.

643
00:29:00.960 --> 00:29:03.660
But yeah, then he does kind of go, okay, well, if they're not, if

644
00:29:03.660 --> 00:29:06.299
they're not going to listen to me, I have to work, I have to sort

645
00:29:06.299 --> 00:29:07.380
of work within their system.

646
00:29:14.279 --> 00:29:18.539
So, I mentioned that the doctor, or at least the 1st doctor in

647
00:29:18.539 --> 00:29:21.660
this story seems to inhabit a box, and of course, there's another

648
00:29:21.660 --> 00:29:25.440
box in the story, which contains the Daleks.

649
00:29:25.500 --> 00:29:29.640
And so when we 1st see the Daleks, it's just 2 of them covered in

650
00:29:29.640 --> 00:29:30.839
cobwebs.

651
00:29:30.900 --> 00:29:35.700
And it seems to me that the Daleks are a bit crap at the beginning

652
00:29:35.700 --> 00:29:36.720
of this story.

653
00:29:36.779 --> 00:29:43.380
And this story, I think, absolutely serves as a proper origin

654
00:29:43.380 --> 00:29:45.720
story for the Daleks.

655
00:29:45.779 --> 00:29:49.200
So we start with them as sort of being shrieking monsters in a

656
00:29:49.200 --> 00:29:49.619
city.

657
00:29:49.680 --> 00:29:51.539
I think I may have said this in FTE.

658
00:29:51.599 --> 00:29:56.400
Then they invade Earth, then they start chasing the doctor, then

659
00:29:56.400 --> 00:30:00.720
they are going to blow up the galaxy.

660
00:30:00.779 --> 00:30:05.160
And they become the, you know, they're the Mekon, aren't they?

661
00:30:05.220 --> 00:30:09.660
They're like some weird giant space opera thing.

662
00:30:09.720 --> 00:30:12.960
And that's not how Whittaker sees them.

663
00:30:13.079 --> 00:30:17.339
Because when the doctor describes the threat that they pose, the

664
00:30:17.339 --> 00:30:20.220
threat that they pose, the thing that they do better than anything

665
00:30:20.220 --> 00:30:22.440
else is exterminate human beings.

666
00:30:22.500 --> 00:30:26.460
It's not they exterminate.

667
00:30:26.519 --> 00:30:28.319
Yeah, the weird aliens salation.

668
00:30:28.380 --> 00:30:31.859
Like they don't, like, that's not, that's not what he talks

669
00:30:31.859 --> 00:30:32.039
about.

670
00:30:32.099 --> 00:30:36.119
Yeah, and he takes that to a further degree in evil where he

671
00:30:36.119 --> 00:30:38.880
basically says they are the opposite of...

672
00:30:38.880 --> 00:30:39.480
Yes.

673
00:30:39.539 --> 00:30:42.779
Remember that we're still in that kind of zone where they call

674
00:30:42.779 --> 00:30:45.599
anyone who looks like us around the universe human.

675
00:30:45.900 --> 00:30:50.039
But, but I do think it's kind of telling that we get them in a

676
00:30:50.039 --> 00:30:53.339
human colony, not a foul colony, not, you know, anything like

677
00:30:53.339 --> 00:30:53.460
that.

678
00:30:53.519 --> 00:30:57.119
This is a human colony and they're a threat to us.

679
00:30:57.180 --> 00:31:03.960
But, you know, like Leicesterson says they're replacing us in

680
00:31:03.960 --> 00:31:07.619
episode six, you know, they're the, they're the sort of new, yeah

681
00:31:07.619 --> 00:31:12.180
the next, but I do think that there is some way in which the

682
00:31:12.180 --> 00:31:15.960
dialects are enabled by the politics of the colony because

683
00:31:15.960 --> 00:31:20.940
Leicesterson's a fanatic and and because Bragan is a fascist and

684
00:31:20.940 --> 00:31:23.819
all of that sort of thing and it's people's ambition and human

685
00:31:23.819 --> 00:31:27.720
greed and stuff like that that allows them to be unleashed.

686
00:31:27.779 --> 00:31:32.519
But I think that it's interesting the way that they they track the

687
00:31:32.519 --> 00:31:36.000
escalation of the politics of the colony.

688
00:31:36.059 --> 00:31:38.640
So killing Hensel is done by a Dalek.

689
00:31:38.700 --> 00:31:41.940
It's not breaking just getting a gun out.

690
00:31:42.000 --> 00:31:47.400
And in episode six, which starts with the Daleks declaring that

691
00:31:47.400 --> 00:31:49.440
everyone in the colony is to be killed.

692
00:31:49.500 --> 00:31:53.640
The very next scene has break and declaring that all of the rebels

693
00:31:53.640 --> 00:31:54.420
are to be killed.

694
00:31:54.480 --> 00:31:59.460
And so there's going to be a massacre in that final episode either

695
00:31:59.460 --> 00:32:00.119
way.

696
00:32:00.180 --> 00:32:05.640
And so thematically, I think, the Daleks become identified with

697
00:32:05.640 --> 00:32:09.720
human evil and the human propensity for killing.

698
00:32:10.559 --> 00:32:16.619
You know, Whitaker's original idea for why the doctor hated the

699
00:32:16.619 --> 00:32:20.400
Dalek so much in this story was because they had destroyed his

700
00:32:20.400 --> 00:32:20.940
homeworld.

701
00:32:22.079 --> 00:32:24.240
Well, isn't there that thing?

702
00:32:24.299 --> 00:32:26.700
There's that thing that's never explained, whether he says

703
00:32:26.700 --> 00:32:28.980
something about the Daleks and then he says, and there's something

704
00:32:28.980 --> 00:32:30.960
else about them that I can't remember.

705
00:32:31.019 --> 00:32:33.480
You know, yeah.

706
00:32:33.539 --> 00:32:35.759
So, I mean, it is a direct line from here.

707
00:32:35.819 --> 00:32:39.839
Like there's a reason why the daleks become the enemies of the

708
00:32:39.839 --> 00:32:43.799
timelords, you know, because it's the dalek that recognises the

709
00:32:43.799 --> 00:32:44.160
doctor.

710
00:32:44.220 --> 00:32:45.299
Like, absolutely.

711
00:32:45.420 --> 00:32:46.680
Yeah, post-regenerate.

712
00:32:46.740 --> 00:32:47.220
Yeah, yeah.

713
00:32:47.279 --> 00:32:48.359
I think that's an interesting point.

714
00:32:48.420 --> 00:32:50.339
They could have so easily say, oh, the dialects aren't going to

715
00:32:50.339 --> 00:32:50.700
know who he is.

716
00:32:50.759 --> 00:32:52.980
But we're supposed to believe there is a sort of flash of

717
00:32:52.980 --> 00:32:56.220
recognition there that the doctor is recognisable even after a

718
00:32:56.220 --> 00:32:56.579
generation.

719
00:32:56.640 --> 00:32:59.880
That's why they keep trying to kill him when they're being ordered

720
00:32:59.880 --> 00:33:00.240
not to.

721
00:33:00.299 --> 00:33:01.799
It's like, try to stop that killing me.

722
00:33:01.859 --> 00:33:02.700
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

723
00:33:02.700 --> 00:33:05.640
And like, that's at a time where still Ben and Polly are

724
00:33:05.640 --> 00:33:07.440
squabbling over whether it's the doctor.

725
00:33:07.500 --> 00:33:08.400
It's in episode two.

726
00:33:08.460 --> 00:33:09.779
And it just sees him.

727
00:33:09.839 --> 00:33:10.859
It's in the office.

728
00:33:10.920 --> 00:33:13.440
Yeah, and we see down the down the tube.

729
00:33:14.039 --> 00:33:14.700
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

730
00:33:14.759 --> 00:33:18.839
And like Ben recognises that the Dalek recognises him and that's

731
00:33:18.839 --> 00:33:20.099
definitely what's happening.

732
00:33:20.160 --> 00:33:22.859
And so they're the doctor's opposite as well.

733
00:33:22.920 --> 00:33:26.759
Like they're not just human evil kind of personified.

734
00:33:26.819 --> 00:33:28.980
They become a mythic enemy to the doctor.

735
00:33:29.039 --> 00:33:32.339
I think the other interesting thing that does go back to basics

736
00:33:32.339 --> 00:33:34.319
with the Daleks. you know, the whole static electricity thing.

737
00:33:34.380 --> 00:33:36.599
The whole, they are fragile.

738
00:33:36.660 --> 00:33:38.579
They're not, even though, you know, they've got these war

739
00:33:38.579 --> 00:33:39.900
machining casings.

740
00:33:39.960 --> 00:33:43.079
They've still got strength that they need to build up before they

741
00:33:43.079 --> 00:33:46.259
can take over, even in episode 5, or we are not yet ready to teach

742
00:33:46.259 --> 00:33:47.700
these human beings the law of the dark.

743
00:33:47.759 --> 00:33:50.220
We're not ready, we are not powerful enough.

744
00:33:50.279 --> 00:33:52.500
It's that thing that I believe was said.

745
00:33:52.559 --> 00:33:54.539
I don't know whether this is an unkind thing that was said, but

746
00:33:54.539 --> 00:33:56.759
apparently the worst thing that happened to Terry Nation's writing

747
00:33:56.759 --> 00:33:58.319
to the Daleks was that he saw the Daleks.

748
00:33:58.440 --> 00:34:02.880
So amazing, which is why the writing of the Daleks, it changes.

749
00:34:02.940 --> 00:34:05.940
Once we see them and we hear them, the writing changes.

750
00:34:06.059 --> 00:34:08.219
Now Whittaker is remembering the original concept.

751
00:34:08.400 --> 00:34:12.119
And especially when we have the, like, the, you know, we get the

752
00:34:12.119 --> 00:34:15.000
Dalek mutant, I think for the 1st time, really, we get a Dalek

753
00:34:15.000 --> 00:34:18.780
mutant since the Daleks, they've kind of disappeared, that stuff

754
00:34:18.780 --> 00:34:21.300
is all brought back and the little, you know, bubbling ball of

755
00:34:21.300 --> 00:34:22.019
hate or whatever.

756
00:34:22.079 --> 00:34:22.860
McCoy calls it.

757
00:34:22.920 --> 00:34:26.639
There's even a light in the story where Ben describes the Dalek as

758
00:34:26.639 --> 00:34:30.599
having a claw, like in the original story, even though the prop

759
00:34:30.599 --> 00:34:32.820
doesn't have any sort of whatsoever.

760
00:34:32.880 --> 00:34:35.039
I just thought, because the proper looks like a hand puppet

761
00:34:35.039 --> 00:34:37.320
scuttling on the floor.

762
00:34:37.380 --> 00:34:38.460
Yeah, it is.

763
00:34:39.059 --> 00:34:42.719
The other thing I want to mention about the way the Daleks are in

764
00:34:42.719 --> 00:34:46.559
this story is how much it presages Genesis of the Daleks.

765
00:34:46.619 --> 00:34:49.980
Not so much as an origin story for the Daleks, but the way that

766
00:34:49.980 --> 00:34:52.260
there is no Dalek in the 1st episode until the very end.

767
00:34:52.320 --> 00:34:52.980
Yes.

768
00:34:52.980 --> 00:34:55.199
Then they gradually appear one by one.

769
00:34:55.260 --> 00:34:57.480
First, there's one, then there's three, then there's more.

770
00:34:57.539 --> 00:35:00.539
And by the time you get to episode five, there's 1000000s of

771
00:35:00.539 --> 00:35:01.260
them.

772
00:35:01.320 --> 00:35:04.739
Well, a bunch of cardboard ones in there. many of them.

773
00:35:05.280 --> 00:35:08.039
You know, taking control.

774
00:35:08.039 --> 00:35:11.219
And I think that's one of the reasons for me why it's one of the

775
00:35:11.219 --> 00:35:15.539
most successful dialect stories is because they're not used too

776
00:35:15.539 --> 00:35:18.119
much and they build and the menace builds more and more.

777
00:35:18.179 --> 00:35:24.239
But every cliffhanger is a new stage in them, every cliffhanger is

778
00:35:24.239 --> 00:35:25.559
a dale cliffhanger.

779
00:35:25.619 --> 00:35:29.340
And the I am your servant one, that incredible one at the end of

780
00:35:29.340 --> 00:35:32.760
episode two, where they're drowning out the doctor's warnings.

781
00:35:32.820 --> 00:35:35.340
Like a doctor is saying they'll kill you all.

782
00:35:35.460 --> 00:35:37.500
Shouting the doctor, shouting over the doctor.

783
00:35:37.559 --> 00:35:38.940
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

784
00:35:39.000 --> 00:35:41.219
And, you know, like he tries to kind of do that again with Evil of

785
00:35:41.219 --> 00:35:43.860
the Daleks and the dizzy doctor stuff. you know.

786
00:35:43.920 --> 00:35:47.280
But this, like it just doesn't compare to how great this is.

787
00:35:47.340 --> 00:35:51.420
And every episode ends with the Daleks entering a new phase

788
00:35:51.539 --> 00:35:52.920
getting that little bit more power.

789
00:35:52.980 --> 00:35:53.579
Yeah, yeah.

790
00:35:53.639 --> 00:35:58.019
And, you know, the incredible cliffhanger to episode four, much of

791
00:35:58.019 --> 00:35:58.860
which we can see.

792
00:35:58.920 --> 00:36:00.480
The Darling Passionland.

793
00:36:00.539 --> 00:36:01.559
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

794
00:36:01.619 --> 00:36:03.119
So you think that's better than this?

795
00:36:03.119 --> 00:36:04.260
Darius Conquer on disjoint.

796
00:36:04.320 --> 00:36:05.039
Oh, no, Carl.

797
00:36:05.099 --> 00:36:05.639
No, no, no.

798
00:36:05.699 --> 00:36:07.139
That's absolutely superb.

799
00:36:07.199 --> 00:36:08.820
That's a massively great moment.

800
00:36:08.940 --> 00:36:10.679
So that's episode five.

801
00:36:10.800 --> 00:36:15.599
But I think episode 4 is really good because, like, like the

802
00:36:15.599 --> 00:36:18.179
script is structured around the fact that we have only 3 props.

803
00:36:18.239 --> 00:36:20.099
I think there are 4 props there.

804
00:36:20.159 --> 00:36:23.940
But, like, there's very much a, there's that moment where they say

805
00:36:23.940 --> 00:36:26.880
oh, just make sure that they only ever see.

806
00:36:27.719 --> 00:36:32.880
Actually, they actually cannibalise the 5 props they had to make.

807
00:36:32.880 --> 00:36:33.119
Right.

808
00:36:33.179 --> 00:36:33.539
Right.

809
00:36:33.599 --> 00:36:34.199
Oh, they had five.

810
00:36:34.260 --> 00:36:38.820
Yeah, they had they had 2 original ones, one that had been

811
00:36:38.820 --> 00:36:40.920
refurbished from a movie Dalek.

812
00:36:40.920 --> 00:36:41.400
Really?

813
00:36:41.400 --> 00:36:44.820
And a lightweight one that had been made for the chase, and I

814
00:36:44.820 --> 00:36:46.980
think another goon from the chase.

815
00:36:47.039 --> 00:36:49.440
And I think they put together the best parts of the goon.

816
00:36:49.500 --> 00:36:52.500
But, I mean, because there's that great moment at the end of

817
00:36:52.500 --> 00:36:56.460
episode 4 where the Daleks, there's just heaps of Daleks coming

818
00:36:56.460 --> 00:36:57.179
through that doorway.

819
00:36:57.239 --> 00:36:58.739
And they're cleaning a paws.

820
00:36:58.800 --> 00:36:59.880
Three, then a pause.

821
00:36:59.940 --> 00:37:00.900
Yeah, there's a pause.

822
00:37:01.019 --> 00:37:02.940
Like you can actually count.

823
00:37:03.000 --> 00:37:04.079
Yeah, that's right.

824
00:37:04.139 --> 00:37:04.739
That's right.

825
00:37:04.860 --> 00:37:05.820
That's their peddling.

826
00:37:07.500 --> 00:37:08.880
He's trying to get around the corner.

827
00:37:08.940 --> 00:37:13.679
But, you know, there's minutes and minutes of no dialogue at all.

828
00:37:13.739 --> 00:37:16.500
It's entirely visual and you've got Leicesterson there.

829
00:37:16.559 --> 00:37:20.699
So he's observing it and he sees it happening and of course it

830
00:37:20.699 --> 00:37:23.579
kind of drives him mad because of what he's done.

831
00:37:23.639 --> 00:37:27.900
But I do think that it is an origin story of the Daleks in the

832
00:37:27.900 --> 00:37:30.360
same way you get Leicesterson saying, I gave you life.

833
00:37:30.420 --> 00:37:31.800
I gave you power, I can take it away.

834
00:37:31.860 --> 00:37:33.900
There's so much Nider and Davros, Sydney.

835
00:37:33.960 --> 00:37:37.679
Yeah, yeah, yeah. well And the way his story evolves.

836
00:37:37.739 --> 00:37:41.579
I love the fact Leicesterson goes mad in stages.

837
00:37:41.639 --> 00:37:45.000
Like there's that moment of realisation that, I think, in episode

838
00:37:45.000 --> 00:37:48.360
3 and then in episode four, he starts to think, no, no, no, this

839
00:37:48.360 --> 00:37:48.900
is definitely wrong.

840
00:37:48.960 --> 00:37:50.699
And then it's seeing the Darlic production line that he goes

841
00:37:50.699 --> 00:37:51.300
properly mad.

842
00:37:51.360 --> 00:37:54.000
And even then his madness changes throughout, but the time you get

843
00:37:54.000 --> 00:37:56.699
to episode six, he's going, oh, no, but you know, they're our

844
00:37:56.699 --> 00:37:58.019
future and that's wonderful.

845
00:37:58.079 --> 00:37:59.699
You know, he just goes completely dimensed.

846
00:37:59.820 --> 00:38:00.900
You could not do that.

847
00:38:00.960 --> 00:38:03.119
I don't know, I'll come back this many times.

848
00:38:03.179 --> 00:38:04.739
You cannot do that in 45 minutes.

849
00:38:04.860 --> 00:38:05.760
Yeah, you don't have time.

850
00:38:05.820 --> 00:38:06.360
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

851
00:38:06.420 --> 00:38:08.039
You need something like a six-part story either.

852
00:38:08.099 --> 00:38:09.360
I mean, he's terrific.

853
00:38:09.420 --> 00:38:13.199
So he is, of course, the high priest of Demnos in Mask of

854
00:38:13.199 --> 00:38:13.980
Mandragra.

855
00:38:14.699 --> 00:38:18.659
And he's Van Glynd in the 1st episode of Blake 7.

856
00:38:19.559 --> 00:38:22.199
And I reckon...

857
00:38:22.320 --> 00:38:24.239
But you know who we haven't mentioned is Mr. Chin.

858
00:38:24.300 --> 00:38:25.619
Yes, Mr. Chin.

859
00:38:25.679 --> 00:38:26.219
Robert Bathurst?

860
00:38:26.280 --> 00:38:27.539
It's your head on the rock, Blagen.

861
00:38:27.539 --> 00:38:28.440
Not mine.

862
00:38:28.559 --> 00:38:29.820
So great.

863
00:38:29.880 --> 00:38:30.780
So good.

864
00:38:30.900 --> 00:38:34.320
And in the in the animation, actually, I think that Leicesterson

865
00:38:34.320 --> 00:38:37.619
comes off very well because he's just got such an incredible

866
00:38:37.619 --> 00:38:37.980
look.

867
00:38:38.039 --> 00:38:42.659
I mean, so does Bragen, obviously, but both of them are such.

868
00:38:42.719 --> 00:38:45.059
I mean, they're great performances, aren't they?

869
00:38:45.119 --> 00:38:46.980
Like all of the guest performances.

870
00:38:47.039 --> 00:38:50.219
All of the guests, with the possible exception of one or 2 of the

871
00:38:50.219 --> 00:38:52.739
rebels that only get one or 2 liners of dialogue are fantastic.

872
00:38:52.800 --> 00:38:53.940
They're all good.

873
00:38:54.000 --> 00:38:54.900
They're all thought through.

874
00:38:54.960 --> 00:38:55.619
Yeah.

875
00:38:56.159 --> 00:38:56.639
Magic.

876
00:38:56.760 --> 00:39:01.139
Yeah, big shout outs as well for Pamela Ran, Davey, and the only

877
00:39:01.139 --> 00:39:02.219
female as only.

878
00:39:02.280 --> 00:39:03.480
The only female other than...

879
00:39:03.599 --> 00:39:05.159
Oh no, there is a female extra that gets exterminated.

880
00:39:05.219 --> 00:39:05.880
Yes, that's right.

881
00:39:05.940 --> 00:39:06.420
That's true.

882
00:39:06.599 --> 00:39:10.619
Who doesn't return to Doctor Who, but the following year to this

883
00:39:10.619 --> 00:39:14.400
would be seen in the Avengers, in quite a similar role, she's

884
00:39:14.400 --> 00:39:15.480
nominally a ghost hunter.

885
00:39:15.539 --> 00:39:18.059
She flirts a lot with Steve to get her own way, but actually turns

886
00:39:18.059 --> 00:39:20.400
out she's 2nd in command of an underground fascist organisation.

887
00:39:21.659 --> 00:39:26.760
When I say underground, I mean, they're literally underground. what

888
00:39:26.760 --> 00:39:27.300
are you doing that?

889
00:39:27.300 --> 00:39:28.860
the 3 hatch game.

890
00:39:28.920 --> 00:39:31.500
Well, I suppose we could pair it up with bizarre, because that

891
00:39:31.500 --> 00:39:32.579
happens.

892
00:39:32.579 --> 00:39:35.519
You just need to find a Kathy Gale with an underground world.

893
00:39:35.579 --> 00:39:37.079
I just wanted to shamelessly plug that.

894
00:39:37.139 --> 00:39:37.980
Yes, thank you very much.

895
00:39:38.039 --> 00:39:41.699
But her leader in that is Julian Glover by the way. wonderful.

896
00:39:54.059 --> 00:39:58.739
Something that's so interesting to me with the Daleks in this is

897
00:39:58.739 --> 00:40:04.320
the new series has arguably reinvented the Daleks 3 times, in

898
00:40:04.320 --> 00:40:07.380
Dalek, the Hory of the Daleks and Resolution.

899
00:40:07.440 --> 00:40:10.440
And each time it borrows elements from this.

900
00:40:10.500 --> 00:40:14.760
So Van Staten basically wants the dialect to be his servant.

901
00:40:14.820 --> 00:40:20.219
And in Rob Shearman's very early drafts, Ben Staten's motivation

902
00:40:20.219 --> 00:40:23.880
was to get the Dalek to sing Happy Birthday to his wife. to turn

903
00:40:23.880 --> 00:40:26.519
it into a toy basically, which is what Leicesterson wants to do.

904
00:40:26.579 --> 00:40:30.840
And there's a scene in Dalek where the doctor is giving the

905
00:40:30.840 --> 00:40:33.119
dialect orders and orders it to die here.

906
00:40:33.179 --> 00:40:35.219
The doctor orders it to immobilise itself.

907
00:40:35.340 --> 00:40:38.460
Victory of the Daleks.

908
00:40:38.460 --> 00:40:39.539
Just shamelessly ribs it off.

909
00:40:39.539 --> 00:40:40.800
Shamelessly rips it off.

910
00:40:40.860 --> 00:40:45.119
The doctor is needed in order to convince the Daleks to produce

911
00:40:45.119 --> 00:40:46.559
the ultimate dalek.

912
00:40:46.619 --> 00:40:50.039
And it's kind of a moment for the audience to go, oh, this is

913
00:40:50.039 --> 00:40:52.019
definitely the doctor because the Daleks recognise him just like

914
00:40:52.019 --> 00:40:52.500
it is here.

915
00:40:52.559 --> 00:40:58.260
And then, of course, in resolution, the doctor scares the Dalek by

916
00:40:58.260 --> 00:41:02.699
saying, scan me, you know who I am, and that sort of propels the

917
00:41:02.699 --> 00:41:03.840
Dalek's plan forward.

918
00:41:03.900 --> 00:41:04.559
And what does it do?

919
00:41:04.619 --> 00:41:08.760
It takes over human communications networks in an effort to take

920
00:41:08.760 --> 00:41:10.619
over the world and summon its own kind.

921
00:41:10.800 --> 00:41:15.900
The new series when it revents Daleks, it doesn't go for going

922
00:41:15.900 --> 00:41:16.920
back to Skaro.

923
00:41:17.340 --> 00:41:20.280
Except for Magician's Apprentice, which is familiar, which is not

924
00:41:20.280 --> 00:41:21.179
really a reinvention.

925
00:41:21.239 --> 00:41:22.500
It's just going back to Scarrow.

926
00:41:22.619 --> 00:41:25.679
It is a kind of genesis of the Daleks in the sense that it

927
00:41:25.679 --> 00:41:29.519
restages those conversations between the doctor and Danfrost.

928
00:41:29.579 --> 00:41:32.519
But it's not an origin story for the Daleks in the way that this

929
00:41:32.519 --> 00:41:33.539
is, I think.

930
00:41:33.599 --> 00:41:34.380
Yeah.

931
00:41:34.380 --> 00:41:37.860
I think too, there is something about the static electricity as

932
00:41:37.860 --> 00:41:38.159
well.

933
00:41:38.219 --> 00:41:41.579
So the daleks and the humans have a different kind of power, but

934
00:41:41.579 --> 00:41:47.400
they're both dependent on power, and it's episode five, which is

935
00:41:47.400 --> 00:41:52.019
perhaps the episode with the least incident in it, despite the

936
00:41:52.019 --> 00:41:55.800
death of Hensel, it's a little bit slow because you've got a, you

937
00:41:55.800 --> 00:41:58.139
know, the great cliffhanger of 4 and the great cliffhanger of 5

938
00:41:58.139 --> 00:41:59.820
and we're just kind of...

939
00:41:59.880 --> 00:42:02.639
Yeah, but there are some terrific shots of Daleks with sort of

940
00:42:02.639 --> 00:42:06.360
curly cables, you know. which is kind of great.

941
00:42:06.420 --> 00:42:11.219
But that link between the power of the colony and the power of the

942
00:42:11.219 --> 00:42:15.960
Daleks, it's the link between them that enables the doctor to

943
00:42:15.960 --> 00:42:17.219
destroy them.

944
00:42:17.280 --> 00:42:22.139
And it's at the end where he feeds back the power and ends up

945
00:42:22.139 --> 00:42:26.639
destroying the power structure of the colony.

946
00:42:26.699 --> 00:42:30.719
You know, the power structure of the colony, the power structure

947
00:42:30.719 --> 00:42:34.079
of the Daleks is seen to be linked in the way that kind of

948
00:42:34.079 --> 00:42:37.980
metaphorically the Daleks and the kind of human politics are

949
00:42:37.980 --> 00:42:38.519
linked.

950
00:42:38.579 --> 00:42:41.820
And so when the doctor destroys the Daleks, He destroys the

951
00:42:41.820 --> 00:42:48.780
colony's power system, its power structure, and then leaves, and

952
00:42:48.780 --> 00:42:54.960
he's being questioned by Polly and Ben, as we said, you weren't

953
00:42:54.960 --> 00:42:55.619
very convincing.

954
00:42:55.679 --> 00:42:59.219
You did look like you were kind of just letting this happen.

955
00:42:59.340 --> 00:43:00.900
What's the deal?

956
00:43:00.960 --> 00:43:02.639
And the doctor just laughs.

957
00:43:02.699 --> 00:43:07.440
And I think that that's a real moment for this new doctor that

958
00:43:07.440 --> 00:43:10.619
sets him apart from what we've had before.

959
00:43:10.920 --> 00:43:15.000
Yes, it's literally just, oh, you've blown up our power system.

960
00:43:15.059 --> 00:43:15.659
What are we going to do?

961
00:43:15.719 --> 00:43:16.739
It's like, come on, let's go.

962
00:43:16.800 --> 00:43:19.260
Yeah, before they say this bill. very kind of thing. before they

963
00:43:19.260 --> 00:43:20.340
say the bill, they always do that.

964
00:43:20.400 --> 00:43:22.679
They always leave like before they actually say goodbye.

965
00:43:22.739 --> 00:43:26.219
It basically continues throughout the whole era.

966
00:43:26.280 --> 00:43:30.539
Like, um, later in macraterra, they're like, let's get out of here

967
00:43:30.539 --> 00:43:32.760
before they make the doctor the leader in the moon base.

968
00:43:32.820 --> 00:43:34.079
It's like, let's just go.

969
00:43:34.139 --> 00:43:34.619
Let's just go.

970
00:43:34.619 --> 00:43:36.780
Before they start asking awkward questions.

971
00:43:36.840 --> 00:43:38.340
Yeah Yeah.

972
00:43:38.400 --> 00:43:45.119
Even through to, I think, Seeds of Death. where Commander Radnor

973
00:43:45.119 --> 00:43:47.579
turns around to ask for the doctor's help and he's already got it

974
00:43:47.579 --> 00:43:51.119
and they run back through a rainstorm to get to the Tartars.

975
00:43:51.900 --> 00:43:53.039
So, yeah.

976
00:43:53.099 --> 00:43:58.139
I mean, it is what we saw, I think, the trial run for this in the

977
00:43:58.139 --> 00:44:01.679
savages, and it's the thing that Stephen Moffatt is referring to

978
00:44:01.679 --> 00:44:05.159
when he says the doctor drops out of the sky and tears down your

979
00:44:05.159 --> 00:44:05.820
world.

980
00:44:05.880 --> 00:44:09.539
And this is the mode that the doctor will operate in now.

981
00:44:09.659 --> 00:44:14.099
And we've had a doctor who has been keen to get out of the

982
00:44:14.099 --> 00:44:14.699
situation.

983
00:44:14.760 --> 00:44:16.619
Like...

984
00:44:16.679 --> 00:44:16.920
Yeah.

985
00:44:16.980 --> 00:44:19.139
And we have that conversation, don't we?

986
00:44:19.199 --> 00:44:21.239
Where Polly says, can't we just leave?

987
00:44:21.300 --> 00:44:24.360
And the doctor doesn't actually say, no, we have to stay here and

988
00:44:24.360 --> 00:44:26.460
save these people from the Daleks at all.

989
00:44:26.519 --> 00:44:27.840
He just ignores them.

990
00:44:27.900 --> 00:44:30.119
You know, he just ignores it.

991
00:44:30.179 --> 00:44:33.119
So he's not sort of set himself up as a kind of crusader.

992
00:44:33.179 --> 00:44:34.739
He's not saying that he's here to hell.

993
00:44:34.800 --> 00:44:40.079
But that also is that fluid link thing from the Daleks about, I'm

994
00:44:40.079 --> 00:44:42.780
just doing what I want to do and if you're with me, well, you're

995
00:44:42.780 --> 00:44:43.380
just here for the ride.

996
00:44:43.440 --> 00:44:44.760
Yeah, I'm the driver.

997
00:44:44.820 --> 00:44:46.500
Yeah, yeah, I'll leave when I want to leave.

998
00:44:46.559 --> 00:44:47.400
Yeah.

999
00:44:47.460 --> 00:44:50.639
And he does, I mean, he does want to destroy the Daleks, but he

1000
00:44:50.639 --> 00:44:55.619
doesn't mind the fact that he's also destroyed the power structure

1001
00:44:55.619 --> 00:44:56.579
of the colony as well.

1002
00:44:56.639 --> 00:44:59.280
Well, it's a bit stupid that Quinn's complaining that, you know

1003
00:44:59.280 --> 00:45:00.360
you've destroyed our power structure.

1004
00:45:00.420 --> 00:45:01.500
Itll take months for us to sort it out.

1005
00:45:01.559 --> 00:45:03.059
I mean, for God's sake, you were all being slaughtered.

1006
00:45:03.119 --> 00:45:04.980
Yeah, in a sense, perspective.

1007
00:45:05.039 --> 00:45:05.519
Calm down.

1008
00:45:05.579 --> 00:45:10.380
But it's almost like in order to cure the disease, the doctor

1009
00:45:10.380 --> 00:45:14.699
needed to, not the disease of the dark existing, but also the

1010
00:45:14.699 --> 00:45:17.280
disease of the power struggle within the colony and all that.

1011
00:45:17.340 --> 00:45:19.679
The doctor needed to let the Dalek thing run its course to a

1012
00:45:19.679 --> 00:45:20.159
certain extent.

1013
00:45:20.219 --> 00:45:23.820
He couldn't have just turned up and blown them up when they walk

1014
00:45:23.820 --> 00:45:25.559
into the capture at the end of part one.

1015
00:45:25.619 --> 00:45:26.099
You know what I mean?

1016
00:45:26.159 --> 00:45:26.460
Yeah.

1017
00:45:26.460 --> 00:45:30.900
Like he needed it to play out in order for the humans to be able

1018
00:45:30.900 --> 00:45:31.860
to reconcile with each other.

1019
00:45:31.920 --> 00:45:35.159
And I think what's interesting is that we go from the situation in

1020
00:45:35.159 --> 00:45:38.340
episodes one and a bit of 2 where we don't trust the doctor and we

1021
00:45:38.340 --> 00:45:39.119
don't know who he is.

1022
00:45:39.179 --> 00:45:41.940
And then, you know, towards the end of it, we start to get a sense

1023
00:45:41.940 --> 00:45:43.559
of him and we're more on his side.

1024
00:45:43.619 --> 00:45:48.960
And then at that very end where Polly and Ben confront him and he

1025
00:45:48.960 --> 00:45:52.800
just laughs and walks off, we're back to a doctor that we're kind

1026
00:45:52.800 --> 00:45:56.519
of alienated from and who's refusing to allow himself to be

1027
00:45:56.519 --> 00:45:57.179
understood.

1028
00:45:57.719 --> 00:45:59.460
What colony?

1029
00:45:59.519 --> 00:46:00.780
There's 2 people there.

1030
00:46:03.179 --> 00:46:06.719
There were a lot of people on the outer perimeter.

1031
00:46:06.780 --> 00:46:08.099
The out of primitive interior.

1032
00:46:08.159 --> 00:46:10.440
There'll be a gene.

1033
00:46:16.800 --> 00:46:22.079
One of the questions that this story raises is about versions.

1034
00:46:22.139 --> 00:46:23.159
Yes.

1035
00:46:23.159 --> 00:46:25.500
You know, so we've got lots of shaders.

1036
00:46:25.559 --> 00:46:26.519
Yeah, that's right.

1037
00:46:26.579 --> 00:46:28.199
But we have 5 doctors.

1038
00:46:28.260 --> 00:46:30.659
Yeah, we have a number of these as well.

1039
00:46:30.719 --> 00:46:37.500
So 7.5 to 8000000 people watched Power of the Daleks back in the

1040
00:46:37.500 --> 00:46:37.679
day.

1041
00:46:37.739 --> 00:46:41.159
I'm willing to bet that most of them are dead.

1042
00:46:41.219 --> 00:46:42.719
That's bleak, isn't it?

1043
00:46:42.780 --> 00:46:44.699
But a whole bunch of them are dead, I would say.

1044
00:46:44.760 --> 00:46:46.380
Well, they were, most of them were children.

1045
00:46:46.440 --> 00:46:47.159
No.

1046
00:46:47.219 --> 00:46:49.440
Yeah, well, yeah, no, some of them probably were children.

1047
00:46:49.500 --> 00:46:50.579
But do you know what I mean?

1048
00:46:50.639 --> 00:46:52.920
Like quite a few of them are no longer with us.

1049
00:46:52.980 --> 00:46:55.199
And so the versions that we have now.

1050
00:46:55.260 --> 00:46:59.400
Yeah, even if, you know, generative AI and so on actually does

1051
00:46:59.400 --> 00:47:02.460
come to the party in due course, you're never going to get a

1052
00:47:02.460 --> 00:47:03.960
reflection of what it is.

1053
00:47:04.019 --> 00:47:05.280
There's always going to be yet another version.

1054
00:47:05.340 --> 00:47:07.320
And then even when we get the 1st version of that, there's 5 piece

1055
00:47:07.320 --> 00:47:08.519
later, it's going to be another version.

1056
00:47:08.639 --> 00:47:09.119
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1057
00:47:09.179 --> 00:47:12.960
That doesn't mean that we can't appreciate the story because 90% of

1058
00:47:12.960 --> 00:47:13.199
it.

1059
00:47:13.260 --> 00:47:15.960
I mean, the important part of it is there.

1060
00:47:16.019 --> 00:47:18.300
You know, the script's never going to change the audio is never

1061
00:47:18.300 --> 00:47:18.780
going to change.

1062
00:47:18.840 --> 00:47:22.559
If I can just go back a bit if I may, and sort of just think about

1063
00:47:22.559 --> 00:47:24.659
how we've got to where we are now.

1064
00:47:24.719 --> 00:47:25.679
Yeah, okay.

1065
00:47:25.679 --> 00:47:29.099
Now, when we all encountered at different times in different

1066
00:47:29.099 --> 00:47:32.280
publications, but for some of us who are older, I mean, the early

1067
00:47:32.280 --> 00:47:35.820
80s is when we, you know, get like a celebration or, you know, the

1068
00:47:35.820 --> 00:47:37.500
20th anniversary radio time special.

1069
00:47:37.559 --> 00:47:38.880
I know that it was mentioned in Dwim earlier.

1070
00:47:38.940 --> 00:47:40.860
But that's when you discover, 0 my god, there are all these

1071
00:47:40.860 --> 00:47:41.760
episodes that don't exist.

1072
00:47:42.000 --> 00:47:46.199
What we also discover is that the synopsis for Power of the Daleks

1073
00:47:46.199 --> 00:47:49.019
in like the making of Doctor Who or in those magazines is like 2

1074
00:47:49.019 --> 00:47:51.059
paragraphs or possibly one paragraph.

1075
00:47:51.119 --> 00:47:56.219
Now, no normalisation, Power the Daleks is mysterious.

1076
00:47:56.280 --> 00:47:57.239
It's unknown.

1077
00:47:57.300 --> 00:48:01.500
And also, for me in 1983, it's unknowable.

1078
00:48:01.920 --> 00:48:05.280
Didn't really think that there would be an audio copy of it.

1079
00:48:05.340 --> 00:48:06.480
We just thought, it's gone.

1080
00:48:06.539 --> 00:48:09.719
You thought, oh, maybe it could come back and you're optimistic

1081
00:48:09.719 --> 00:48:10.500
but it's gone, right?

1082
00:48:10.559 --> 00:48:12.239
Not even a John Peel novelisation.

1083
00:48:12.300 --> 00:48:14.340
No, but Sophie, why isn't it been novel?

1084
00:48:14.400 --> 00:48:15.719
Anyway, point is, not even novelized.

1085
00:48:15.780 --> 00:48:17.460
So it's so mysterious.

1086
00:48:17.519 --> 00:48:22.860
Then we move through sort of the 80s and you get the revelation

1087
00:48:22.860 --> 00:48:25.559
there are audio copies of things, which are appalling quality.

1088
00:48:25.619 --> 00:48:27.659
Just unlistenable.

1089
00:48:29.099 --> 00:48:34.860
And then I think it's a DWB in 91, something like that.

1090
00:48:34.920 --> 00:48:37.320
I don't know, someone will correct me, don't at me, please.

1091
00:48:37.380 --> 00:48:40.860
Um, but that's when suddenly we discover that there are things

1092
00:48:40.860 --> 00:48:42.119
these things called tele snaps.

1093
00:48:42.179 --> 00:48:45.780
So then suddenly we have all this photography representing every

1094
00:48:45.780 --> 00:48:48.179
60 seconds or so there's a photograph.

1095
00:48:48.239 --> 00:48:50.159
Suddenly there are these images that we have for the 1st time.

1096
00:48:50.519 --> 00:48:55.920
Then people start going, hey, we can put the audio onto these

1097
00:48:55.920 --> 00:48:57.659
photos.

1098
00:48:57.719 --> 00:49:00.480
Now, the 1st version of this I saw, I think it's around 1993

1099
00:49:00.480 --> 00:49:01.199
something like that.

1100
00:49:01.260 --> 00:49:04.260
Around the 30th anniversary, I get this videotape from a friend

1101
00:49:04.260 --> 00:49:07.860
the 1st reconstruction I've ever seen, which, let's face it, is

1102
00:49:07.860 --> 00:49:10.860
utterly unwatchable because, you know, I mean, how they possibly

1103
00:49:10.860 --> 00:49:11.639
did this back then.

1104
00:49:11.699 --> 00:49:14.039
I don't know they even it's so primitive.

1105
00:49:14.099 --> 00:49:16.679
But nevertheless, and you know, the photos were changing so

1106
00:49:16.679 --> 00:49:17.280
infrequently.

1107
00:49:17.340 --> 00:49:18.539
The audio was such bad quality.

1108
00:49:18.599 --> 00:49:20.760
I gave up 15 minutes in.

1109
00:49:20.820 --> 00:49:22.079
I just it was just hopeless.

1110
00:49:22.199 --> 00:49:25.739
Then, we realised that there's all these clips available.

1111
00:49:25.800 --> 00:49:28.380
Not the super eight, but then there's all these other clips that

1112
00:49:28.380 --> 00:49:31.440
appear like found from the sea from computer thing that Damian

1113
00:49:31.440 --> 00:49:34.500
Shanahan finds and there's other bits that were in Blue Peter and

1114
00:49:34.500 --> 00:49:34.800
stuff.

1115
00:49:34.860 --> 00:49:38.820
All those bits of footage are kind of, if not found, maybe they're

1116
00:49:38.820 --> 00:49:41.159
already known to exist, but in terms reach the fan consciousness.

1117
00:49:41.219 --> 00:49:42.480
And it's not long.

1118
00:49:42.539 --> 00:49:45.059
It's around that same time that they find that those films are

1119
00:49:45.059 --> 00:49:48.119
super eight, of which Power of the Daleks one and 2 have a

1120
00:49:48.119 --> 00:49:49.199
remarkable amount.

1121
00:49:49.320 --> 00:49:50.159
Right.

1122
00:49:50.219 --> 00:49:54.000
A remarkable amount of. so much. 10th planet 4 is the only one

1123
00:49:54.000 --> 00:49:55.559
that comes close to matching it.

1124
00:49:55.619 --> 00:49:58.500
So suddenly this thing that was completely, there was one

1125
00:49:58.500 --> 00:50:03.059
paragraph for me in 1983, starts to have all this stuff.

1126
00:50:03.119 --> 00:50:05.280
And then the proper reconstruction start.

1127
00:50:05.340 --> 00:50:07.260
As people are able to sync them better with PowerPoint and so on

1128
00:50:07.260 --> 00:50:08.880
like that, output things, the video signals.

1129
00:50:08.940 --> 00:50:11.639
So I think it's 1999 that I get my 1st proper reconstruct.

1130
00:50:11.699 --> 00:50:14.280
Oh, and then they find better quality audio copies, strong audios

1131
00:50:14.280 --> 00:50:16.019
which are quote unquote, crystal clear.

1132
00:50:16.079 --> 00:50:19.679
Suddenly we've got audios we can listen to that are decent because

1133
00:50:19.679 --> 00:50:22.440
those ones that we talked about earlier where Tom does the

1134
00:50:22.440 --> 00:50:23.039
narration too.

1135
00:50:23.099 --> 00:50:24.059
They were pretty rubbish.

1136
00:50:24.119 --> 00:50:27.119
They were not nearly as good as, even though they were cleaned up

1137
00:50:27.119 --> 00:50:28.800
as the ones that we know and love today.

1138
00:50:28.860 --> 00:50:33.360
Anyway, point being that suddenly for the 1st time, I sit down and

1139
00:50:33.360 --> 00:50:34.920
I hear about these reconstructions.

1140
00:50:34.980 --> 00:50:38.219
I'm shown by a friend in the UK, episode one of the Savages, in

1141
00:50:38.219 --> 00:50:39.420
episode one of Marco Polo.

1142
00:50:39.480 --> 00:50:41.820
And we go, oh, this is going to be terrible.

1143
00:50:41.880 --> 00:50:42.539
We're very cynic.

1144
00:50:42.599 --> 00:50:43.679
We go, this is going to be unwatchable.

1145
00:50:43.739 --> 00:50:45.900
I saw this power of the Daleks singing ages ago. was terrible.

1146
00:50:45.960 --> 00:50:47.159
I watch it.

1147
00:50:47.280 --> 00:50:50.280
And we both turned to each other after we watched the 1st episode

1148
00:50:50.280 --> 00:50:54.539
of savages and we went, That was actually really quite cool.

1149
00:50:54.599 --> 00:50:56.219
I actually really enjoyed that.

1150
00:50:56.280 --> 00:50:57.480
I can watch another one.

1151
00:50:57.599 --> 00:51:00.119
Don't have time to watch anymore at that time.

1152
00:51:00.179 --> 00:51:02.699
Then I'd come back to Australia and I'm fine, right, where can I

1153
00:51:02.699 --> 00:51:03.000
get these?

1154
00:51:03.119 --> 00:51:06.000
Lovely guy in Australia called Bruce Robinson, who is making

1155
00:51:06.000 --> 00:51:06.539
these.

1156
00:51:06.599 --> 00:51:08.579
He's like the Australian wing, right?

1157
00:51:08.639 --> 00:51:10.500
And then joint venture becomes this combined thing.

1158
00:51:10.559 --> 00:51:11.519
I don't know the full history there.

1159
00:51:11.579 --> 00:51:13.920
But the point is, so his ones had the script at the bottom.

1160
00:51:13.980 --> 00:51:15.360
That was important too.

1161
00:51:15.420 --> 00:51:16.380
So I had his copy.

1162
00:51:16.440 --> 00:51:19.739
So the very 1st 2 that I got from him were Power of the Daleks and

1163
00:51:19.739 --> 00:51:20.280
Enemy of the World.

1164
00:51:20.340 --> 00:51:21.059
Oh wow.

1165
00:51:21.179 --> 00:51:24.059
And that's why I always said I was an advocate for enemy of the

1166
00:51:24.059 --> 00:51:25.679
world because I was watching enemy of the world and I was

1167
00:51:25.679 --> 00:51:26.519
absolutely captivated.

1168
00:51:26.579 --> 00:51:29.699
Likewise, I was captivated by Power of the Daleks.

1169
00:51:29.760 --> 00:51:32.159
Yes, it was still a bit cranky at the time, but then the way it

1170
00:51:32.159 --> 00:51:33.780
drops into this footage.

1171
00:51:33.840 --> 00:51:36.119
The way you see that super 8 footage.

1172
00:51:36.179 --> 00:51:36.900
And I was gripped.

1173
00:51:36.960 --> 00:51:37.920
I didn't watch the whole thing once.

1174
00:51:37.980 --> 00:51:40.980
But I was able to watch multiple episodes in a row without going

1175
00:51:40.980 --> 00:51:43.619
oh God, I can't keep watching this. terrible.

1176
00:51:43.679 --> 00:51:45.780
Now I know some people deride them as slideshows.

1177
00:51:45.840 --> 00:51:46.619
And that's fair enough.

1178
00:51:46.679 --> 00:51:47.460
It not for everybody.

1179
00:51:47.519 --> 00:51:49.920
And I also think that it doesn't suit every story.

1180
00:51:49.980 --> 00:51:53.039
There are lots of stories which are terrible, which don't exist

1181
00:51:53.039 --> 00:51:55.679
and watching a reconstruction is bleak.

1182
00:51:55.739 --> 00:51:56.219
Right?

1183
00:51:56.280 --> 00:51:57.000
The massacre.

1184
00:51:57.059 --> 00:51:58.739
Well, there are no telly snaps now.

1185
00:51:58.800 --> 00:51:59.340
Yeah that's right.

1186
00:51:59.400 --> 00:52:00.000
It's the problem.

1187
00:52:00.059 --> 00:52:02.219
But the ones with Telus, I'm talking about the ones with Telesaps

1188
00:52:02.219 --> 00:52:04.019
and I want to make that distinction here.

1189
00:52:04.079 --> 00:52:06.239
Marco Polo is another one that I can watch over and over again.

1190
00:52:06.300 --> 00:52:06.719
Oh, yeah.

1191
00:52:06.719 --> 00:52:09.000
Because there's so much visual material.

1192
00:52:09.059 --> 00:52:13.199
But I suppose the point that I'm trying to say is that for me, I

1193
00:52:13.199 --> 00:52:17.400
respect the animation teams very much, I appreciate that they're

1194
00:52:17.400 --> 00:52:19.980
doing an awful lot with probably very little resources.

1195
00:52:20.039 --> 00:52:23.940
They need many times the budget that they actually have in order

1196
00:52:23.940 --> 00:52:24.539
to do something.

1197
00:52:24.599 --> 00:52:27.179
I'd also note that the animations have become more and more

1198
00:52:27.179 --> 00:52:28.800
distant from the actual story itself.

1199
00:52:28.920 --> 00:52:30.840
When power was done, it was the 1st story to be done in its

1200
00:52:30.840 --> 00:52:33.360
entirety before we'd just been filling in holes.

1201
00:52:33.480 --> 00:52:35.340
It had just been invasion one and 4 and so on.

1202
00:52:35.400 --> 00:52:38.639
This was the 1st round answer, and it's relatively faithful, not

1203
00:52:38.639 --> 00:52:40.800
shot for shot exactly, but it's relatively faithful to

1204
00:52:40.800 --> 00:52:43.440
stylistically to the original story.

1205
00:52:43.500 --> 00:52:44.940
And they make choices.

1206
00:52:44.940 --> 00:52:46.860
And that's fine. understandable choice.

1207
00:52:46.920 --> 00:52:48.599
But for me, no, you're right.

1208
00:52:48.659 --> 00:52:50.699
We cannot experience what they experienced in 1966.

1209
00:52:50.880 --> 00:52:55.860
But I feel when you are a Doctor Who fan, as deep as I am in that

1210
00:52:55.860 --> 00:52:58.860
era, I've watched a lot of these surrounding extent episodes so

1211
00:52:58.860 --> 00:53:02.340
many times, you see those steel images on the screen, you see

1212
00:53:02.340 --> 00:53:06.360
those flashes of Super 8, flashes of things, and you go into a

1213
00:53:06.360 --> 00:53:09.900
kind of a trance, a stupor, and you're almost imagining that

1214
00:53:09.900 --> 00:53:14.460
you're watching the moving footage and you can feel what Trouton's

1215
00:53:14.460 --> 00:53:16.980
doing and you can feel what the other actors are doing because of

1216
00:53:16.980 --> 00:53:17.880
the text and title.

1217
00:53:17.940 --> 00:53:20.519
The look on Trouton's face at the end of episode 2 during which

1218
00:53:20.519 --> 00:53:22.739
you see on the Super 8 footage and then the Telesapse is just

1219
00:53:22.739 --> 00:53:26.579
astonishing and I think that that's what carries me through that

1220
00:53:26.579 --> 00:53:28.920
and the ability to win it, then goes back to a still image.

1221
00:53:28.980 --> 00:53:29.519
I can keep watching.

1222
00:53:29.579 --> 00:53:34.139
I just feel that that is all swept away and lost when you watch an

1223
00:53:34.139 --> 00:53:34.380
animation.

1224
00:54:03.360 --> 00:54:06.059
Well, that's all the time we have for this week.

1225
00:54:06.179 --> 00:54:10.559
We'll be back again next week, or in three years' time, to see

1226
00:54:10.559 --> 00:54:14.400
what happens when they cancel our show again in Spearhead from

1227
00:54:14.400 --> 00:54:14.639
Space.

1228
00:54:15.119 --> 00:54:18.900
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts

1229
00:54:18.900 --> 00:54:22.800
and you can keep up with us on our website, 500yearDiary.com, where

1230
00:54:22.800 --> 00:54:26.039
you'll find our social media links, as well as links to all of our

1231
00:54:26.039 --> 00:54:30.239
other podcasts, including 2 Doctor Who podcasts, flights through

1232
00:54:30.239 --> 00:54:33.300
entirety, and the 2nd great and bountiful human empire.

1233
00:54:33.360 --> 00:54:37.800
Until next time, remember that it turns out that Hugo Boss Duds

1234
00:54:37.800 --> 00:54:40.019
are no match for a Dalek neutraliser.

1235
00:54:40.079 --> 00:54:42.420
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

1236
00:54:42.480 --> 00:54:43.139
Good night.

1237
00:54:43.260 --> 00:54:43.980
See you soon.

1238
00:54:44.039 --> 00:54:44.699
Bye for now.

1239
00:54:55.079 --> 00:55:00.119
That was 500 Year Diary, starring Nathan Bottomley, Brendan Jones

1240
00:55:00.119 --> 00:55:03.539
Simon Moore, and James Selwood, the theme was composed by Cameron

1241
00:55:03.539 --> 00:55:04.440
Lamb.

1242
00:55:04.500 --> 00:55:07.980
This episode, entering a new phase, was recorded on the 9th of

1243
00:55:07.980 --> 00:55:11.039
March, 2024, and released on the 14th of April.

1244
00:55:11.460 --> 00:55:17.159
This has been episode 281 of Flight 3 Entirety, and season one

1245
00:55:17.159 --> 00:55:19.320
episode one of 500 year diary.

1246
00:55:19.440 --> 00:55:23.880
If you want to hear the rest of 500-year diary, goes a 500-year

1247
00:55:23.880 --> 00:55:27.179
diary.com or look for us in your podcatcher of choice.

1248
00:55:27.239 --> 00:55:29.340
We'll see you again next week.

1249
00:55:41.400 --> 00:55:46.800
For me, um, watching original Star Trek and Star Trek The Next

1250
00:55:46.800 --> 00:55:49.380
Generation with new opticals.

1251
00:55:49.440 --> 00:55:56.639
I think, I think if anything can be done to make these accessible

1252
00:55:56.639 --> 00:56:00.119
to an audience now, it should be done.

1253
00:56:00.179 --> 00:56:03.719
They're not, neither of those shows are Shakespeare.

1254
00:56:03.780 --> 00:56:07.920
And what existed in the past still exist.

1255
00:56:07.980 --> 00:56:11.159
It's not like Star Wars where you can now no longer get a decent

1256
00:56:11.159 --> 00:56:15.599
copy of Star Wars that was released in 1977.

1257
00:56:15.840 --> 00:56:18.960
These versions don't erase the original.

1258
00:56:19.320 --> 00:56:20.880
Um, and...

1259
00:56:20.880 --> 00:56:22.320
So we're saying they have new special effects on them.

1260
00:56:22.800 --> 00:56:25.199
The Star Wars, the Star Trek.

1261
00:56:25.260 --> 00:56:26.699
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1262
00:56:26.760 --> 00:56:27.239
Yeah.

1263
00:56:27.300 --> 00:56:29.760
So these versions don't erase the originals.

1264
00:56:29.820 --> 00:56:34.619
And and for us now, you know, the power of the Dalek special

1265
00:56:34.619 --> 00:56:41.280
edition also includes literally every bit, every bit of realia

1266
00:56:41.280 --> 00:56:42.840
that...

1267
00:56:42.840 --> 00:56:45.360
Sure, but not, but I mean, I didn't, I didn't have the 2020

1268
00:56:45.360 --> 00:56:48.840
version of the 2016 Blu-ray, and the, the reconstruction that's on

1269
00:56:48.840 --> 00:56:51.239
that is just a slideshow, whereas the fan reconstruction has

1270
00:56:51.239 --> 00:56:52.260
all...

1271
00:56:52.260 --> 00:56:55.679
Does the 2020 reconstruction have the moving footage in it?

1272
00:56:55.739 --> 00:56:58.559
I think it does, but I haven't watched it, but I remember that was

1273
00:56:58.559 --> 00:56:59.579
one of the things they interest.

1274
00:56:59.639 --> 00:57:07.320
That initial 2016 animation, though, is a bloody miracle that

1275
00:57:07.320 --> 00:57:10.320
actually happened. initially...

1276
00:57:10.380 --> 00:57:13.619
No, no, initially they were given 10 months to get it done.

1277
00:57:13.679 --> 00:57:19.139
And then a decision was made high up at the BBC that they would

1278
00:57:19.139 --> 00:57:22.380
launch it on the 50th anniversary of the story.

1279
00:57:22.440 --> 00:57:22.920
Yeah, right.

1280
00:57:22.920 --> 00:57:26.460
Which meant that their time frame was cut from 10 months to five.

1281
00:57:26.519 --> 00:57:31.559
So the entire thing was done in such a compressed time frame, it's

1282
00:57:31.559 --> 00:57:32.579
amazing, it turned out so well.

1283
00:57:32.639 --> 00:57:35.579
Oh, yeah, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not saying that

1284
00:57:35.579 --> 00:57:36.239
you're writing.

1285
00:57:36.239 --> 00:57:39.239
And in some respects, whether I'm talking about the viewer

1286
00:57:39.239 --> 00:57:39.960
experience.

1287
00:57:39.960 --> 00:57:44.219
And also, just to your point, Nathan, about making this stuff

1288
00:57:44.219 --> 00:57:45.599
accessible to as many people's.

1289
00:57:45.659 --> 00:57:46.500
Fine, great, absolutely.

1290
00:57:46.559 --> 00:57:51.420
I am a little sceptical about the willingness of children of today

1291
00:57:51.420 --> 00:57:54.719
or people who are not not even children.

1292
00:57:54.780 --> 00:57:57.239
People who are just haven't been Doctor Who fans since, you know

1293
00:57:57.239 --> 00:57:59.820
have only been Doctor Who fans in the new era, shall we say?

1294
00:57:59.880 --> 00:58:02.820
The interest, I'd have thought the interest in this missing

1295
00:58:02.820 --> 00:58:05.340
material is very niche.

1296
00:58:05.400 --> 00:58:07.920
And I think they are kind of, there's something about me which

1297
00:58:07.920 --> 00:58:10.079
thinks surely they are kidding themselves, is they think they are

1298
00:58:10.079 --> 00:58:14.880
expanding the audience with this tinny mono soundtrack, regardless

1299
00:58:14.880 --> 00:58:15.840
of the quality of the animation.

1300
00:58:15.900 --> 00:58:16.500
You know what I mean?

1301
00:58:16.559 --> 00:58:18.300
There's a limit to how much you can do.

1302
00:58:18.360 --> 00:58:21.179
Yeah, it'd be interesting to see, it would be interesting to see

1303
00:58:21.179 --> 00:58:25.139
because so much of this is now up on iPlayer in the UK. you know

1304
00:58:25.139 --> 00:58:26.099
some stats.

1305
00:58:26.219 --> 00:58:27.480
Yeah, some stats.

1306
00:58:27.539 --> 00:58:28.380
Which we'll never get again.

1307
00:58:28.380 --> 00:58:29.099
We speak.

1308
00:58:29.159 --> 00:58:32.099
No, we speak, we're speaking, you know, the week after the release

1309
00:58:32.099 --> 00:58:38.039
of a new version of the Celestial Toymaker, where the animation

1310
00:58:38.039 --> 00:58:43.260
style is literally nothing at all, like what we got to see, which

1311
00:58:43.260 --> 00:58:44.579
people were raving about.

1312
00:58:44.639 --> 00:58:46.199
I think that's somebody there.

1313
00:58:46.260 --> 00:58:49.920
It's kind of the psychedelia of the entire thing matches.

1314
00:58:49.980 --> 00:58:51.599
Yeah, it matches the concept of the story.

1315
00:58:51.659 --> 00:58:56.340
Whereas I think that it's a betrayal to everyone involved to give

1316
00:58:56.340 --> 00:59:00.719
people the impression that that's in any way a functional story.

1317
00:59:02.400 --> 00:59:04.260
So when are we doing the celestial job?

1318
00:59:04.320 --> 00:59:06.599
I think that might be a fair way down the front.

1319
00:59:07.320 --> 00:59:09.420
But you know what I mean?

1320
00:59:09.480 --> 00:59:15.360
Like, I, I, I, with a soundtrack as, as poor as it is, I'm highly

1321
00:59:15.360 --> 00:59:18.360
sceptical that how many people who aren't specifically missing

1322
00:59:18.360 --> 00:59:21.480
episodes of Ascionados or people who are really, really, really

1323
00:59:21.480 --> 00:59:23.340
introductive, are going to be into it.

1324
00:59:23.400 --> 00:59:25.619
It's not surely it's not a vehicle for new audiences.

1325
00:59:25.739 --> 00:59:32.880
Well, my, my thing is, I'm, I'm, I'm absolutely all behind Make

1326
00:59:32.880 --> 00:59:36.119
Pavma Sambova actually look like he's 200 years old.

1327
00:59:36.179 --> 00:59:40.320
You know, but at the same time, so long as, as you say, Nathan, the

1328
00:59:40.320 --> 00:59:45.239
original version is in some way in circulation.

1329
00:59:46.019 --> 00:59:49.860
Something I do find very interesting when this debate comes up is

1330
00:59:49.860 --> 00:59:54.659
fans who saw Tomb of the Cybermen at the time, when the print was

1331
00:59:54.659 --> 00:59:56.880
rediscovered and it was coming out, there were lots of sort of

1332
00:59:56.880 --> 00:59:59.159
interviews and things with them saying, oh, I can't wait to see

1333
00:59:59.159 --> 00:59:59.460
it.

1334
00:59:59.519 --> 01:00:02.940
That moment at the end of episode one, when a cyberman walks out

1335
01:00:02.940 --> 01:00:07.500
and when Toberman throws the cyber controller across and it was so

1336
01:00:07.500 --> 01:00:11.940
convincing and then we get it and it's a mannequin at the end of

1337
01:00:11.940 --> 01:00:16.260
episode one and an empty cyber controller suit where the head

1338
01:00:16.260 --> 01:00:17.340
falls off.

1339
01:00:17.400 --> 01:00:18.360
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1340
01:00:18.360 --> 01:00:23.579
Um, on a 32 centimetre screen with bad reception with with sort of

1341
01:00:23.579 --> 01:00:24.360
blurring at the edges.

1342
01:00:24.420 --> 01:00:25.139
It probably looked wonderful.

1343
01:00:25.199 --> 01:00:27.179
Oh, and memory as well.

1344
01:00:27.300 --> 01:00:28.440
Memory as well.

1345
01:00:28.500 --> 01:00:33.480
And the fact that as children, when we want when we want something

1346
01:00:33.480 --> 01:00:37.260
to look good, we overlook its form, of course. you know, And I say

1347
01:00:37.260 --> 01:00:40.380
this as a gamer who is still interested in games from the 80s and

1348
01:00:40.380 --> 01:00:43.559
90s and I go back to them now as an adult and I'm like, okay, I

1349
01:00:43.559 --> 01:00:44.519
can see the pixels.

1350
01:00:44.579 --> 01:00:46.800
I couldn't see the pixels when I was 12 because I wasn't looking

1351
01:00:46.800 --> 01:00:47.280
for them.

1352
01:00:47.340 --> 01:00:48.360
Pixels are part of the channel.

1353
01:00:48.420 --> 01:00:49.619
We're all Doctor Who fans.

1354
01:00:49.679 --> 01:00:50.639
Can I guess say?

1355
01:00:51.780 --> 01:00:53.820
conversation's finished.

1356
01:00:57.239 --> 01:00:58.679
Yeah.

1357
01:00:58.800 --> 01:01:01.559
So sorry, where are you going with it?

1358
01:01:01.619 --> 01:01:07.500
Oh, well, um, so it's, it's just kind of like, I think sometimes

1359
01:01:07.500 --> 01:01:13.079
when the animation teams change things, it's to make it try and

1360
01:01:13.079 --> 01:01:16.860
give a new audience the same feeling they had when they were 7 or

1361
01:01:16.860 --> 01:01:17.639
8 or nine.

1362
01:01:17.699 --> 01:01:18.360
Oh, I do not.

1363
01:01:18.480 --> 01:01:19.980
Yeah, I do not object to the change.

1364
01:01:20.039 --> 01:01:22.500
And that's the thing, like, I don't think you, I completely, it's

1365
01:01:22.500 --> 01:01:24.239
not completely logical for all the reasons you say it.

1366
01:01:24.300 --> 01:01:27.719
Yeah, I think there are people who begrudge those changes and say

1367
01:01:27.719 --> 01:01:31.260
that this is a betrayal of the original source material.

1368
01:01:31.380 --> 01:01:34.260
And there's people, I think, who make up the vast majority who are

1369
01:01:34.260 --> 01:01:38.219
like, it's like, oh, yeah, this is fine with me, which is the camp

1370
01:01:38.219 --> 01:01:41.940
I'm in, and the camp you're in, which is, oh, I wish it was as

1371
01:01:41.940 --> 01:01:44.219
close to the original as humanly possible, but I understand why

1372
01:01:44.219 --> 01:01:44.699
they did that.

1373
01:01:44.760 --> 01:01:46.860
Yeah, no, I'm not saying I wish.

1374
01:01:46.920 --> 01:01:48.780
No, I'm not saying I wish the animation.

1375
01:01:48.840 --> 01:01:51.780
No, I was just observing that power is more effective because then

1376
01:01:51.780 --> 01:01:52.739
they start to...

1377
01:01:52.800 --> 01:01:54.900
I don't mind the celestial tourmaker route.

1378
01:01:54.960 --> 01:01:55.619
Yeah, absolutely.

1379
01:01:55.679 --> 01:01:56.039
Why not?

1380
01:01:56.099 --> 01:01:58.079
Because for me, it doesn't matter.

1381
01:01:58.139 --> 01:01:59.579
Oh, do you know what I mean?

1382
01:01:59.639 --> 01:02:00.420
It's an animation.

1383
01:02:00.480 --> 01:02:01.500
So let's try something else.

1384
01:02:01.559 --> 01:02:02.340
Okay, great.

1385
01:02:02.400 --> 01:02:05.400
Because you never go, it's more that I still, and I still think

1386
01:02:05.400 --> 01:02:07.619
and I know it's very primitive at the moment and some of the, but

1387
01:02:07.619 --> 01:02:08.699
there are some very good samples.

1388
01:02:08.760 --> 01:02:11.099
There are some very good samples, but there are some very good

1389
01:02:11.099 --> 01:02:14.699
samples, and I wonder whether the animation thing is going to be a

1390
01:02:14.699 --> 01:02:18.179
blind alley that in 10 years time, we're going to be looking at

1391
01:02:18.179 --> 01:02:24.659
these, AI generated episodes, that are going, hopefully cross

1392
01:02:24.659 --> 01:02:28.260
fingers, if they go, if they do do it, hopefully are more faithful

1393
01:02:28.260 --> 01:02:30.239
to the original, because I think that you can be more thankful to

1394
01:02:30.239 --> 01:02:30.719
the original.

1395
01:02:30.780 --> 01:02:30.960
Yes.

1396
01:02:30.960 --> 01:02:32.460
That's what I'm observing.

1397
01:02:32.519 --> 01:02:35.400
I love how faithful this is to the original.

1398
01:02:35.519 --> 01:02:36.539
Yes.

1399
01:02:36.599 --> 01:02:42.360
To the point where that moment, I think it's in episode 4 where

1400
01:02:42.360 --> 01:02:45.539
the Dalek bumps into the camera is in the animation.

1401
01:02:45.599 --> 01:02:47.159
Yeah, hilarious.

1402
01:02:47.219 --> 01:02:49.260
Because they took out the, they took out the, in the actual

1403
01:02:49.260 --> 01:02:49.619
episode.

1404
01:02:49.679 --> 01:02:51.539
They took out the zombie bumping into the cabin in the web

1405
01:02:51.539 --> 01:02:51.900
planet.

1406
01:02:51.960 --> 01:02:55.320
So I can't trust these people. is back in the end of the world.

1407
01:02:55.380 --> 01:02:56.159
Fabulous.