WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 09:02:34

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Hello, dear listener and welcome to 500 Year Diary.

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The only Doctor Who podcast that serves to rayify and ultimately contained the doctor's past in preparation for the show's exit from the long 50s and its entry into its new mode of Scruffy Beatnik heroism.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm James And I'm Simon.

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It's the 5th of November 1966, and we're still not sure what happened on telly this time last week, and we're in no way prepared for how strange and unsettling the consequences are about to be.

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Something new is about to start, or at least to start again.

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Let's find out what that is as we discuss the power of the Daleks.

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So, I guess we're doing this in the absence of a real sense of what Patrick Troughton's performance is like.

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Mm.

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It's interesting.

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Like, listening to the soundtracks, and we can only really gauge the vocal performance there, it's not as energetic as it would become.

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And then listening to the Highlanders.

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It's a lot more energetic than it would become.

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And then really it's during the underwater menace that he settles into the character as we sort of know from the more extant stories later down the line.

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But there are flashes of it here.

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And even in the little snippets and clips that we have, there are flashes of that very animated face, alternating with the dark brooding.

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But yeah, it's such a shame we don't have this one visually.

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Yeah.

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The Super 8 fragments, I think, do reveal a lot.

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And now obviously you can't extrapolate about 30 seconds through to 2.5 hours, but nevertheless, I think that gives enough sense of how beautiful it was.

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And I was reliving this last night when I was looking through all of the timeline of destruction.

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There's a great website, which I'm sure Nathan will find out and put in the show notes, that goes through basically when everything's erased.

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And, um, it actually, what most made me to tears last night, reading it again, I have a very long history when it comes to missing episodes and a passion for them and 0 god, it's painful.

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Because apparently the final prints of some of the episodes were not destroyed until 1978 or at least disappeared in 1978.

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Well, yes.

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I think there are other podcasts which delve into this sort of stuff more broadly.

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I don't want to claim to be an authority of it, but some of the relatively more recent information is that there was a guy who was destroying return stuff.

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There's no evidence that we know of, that now missing stuff was destroyed, but as late as 1981.

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Yes, intake of breath.

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But, and that could be, I mean, we don't know what was lost.

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But there's something inside me that thinks of all the Zambia prints, all of the Singapore prints, all of those things that may have been returned.

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Who knows?

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It's speculation.

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But I think the videotapes of power are one of the last to go.

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Fury is the last videotapes to go, power is towards the end.

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But if I can say, we should actually by right type episode six.

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I don't get into the way it's it.

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So, you know how a number of stories, a number of episodes in the 60s were not recorded, well, they recorded on 35 mil film in that the studio output was Celestini directly to 35 mil because that was going to be much easier for them to edit.

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Although I think sometimes it was because there wasn't a VT machine available.

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So I think the Daleks episode 4 is like that.

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I think episode 5 of Dalek Invasion of Earth, for instance, Space Pirates 2 is on 35 mil film.

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Now, those film prints ended up in the film library because that's where they were supposed to go.

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There were 3 episodes that were recorded on 35 mil, which we do not have.

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Power of Dalek 6, Wheel in Space 5, and Daleks 4.

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Now Dalex 4 is fight because we've got another version of it.

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But by rights, there should be too few missing episodes.

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Because of course, the videotapes were looked after by engineering, but the films were looked after by the film library.

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And of course, you can't reuse film.

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No, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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I mean, I listened to us talking about this on flight for entirety in preparation for this, and I remember making the point that this is just about the longest run of missing episode.

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Well, it certainly is now since the discovery of Galaxy 43.

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Yeah, okay.

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And the discovery of enemy and web, it's the longest run.

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Because there used to be 3 equal, I think, 13 episodes.

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But yeah.

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Yeah, yeah, so 10th plant 4 through...

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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And so when we did underwater menace, you know, underwater menace is pretty crap, but, you know, Troughton's performance is just instantly magical.

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So for a long time, this has been the missing story, whose absence from the archives, I felt most keenly.

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Oh, this is definitely my my one.

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Maybe macratera one.

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Oh, look.

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If we're doing if we're doing a specific episode, I'd actually put episode 2 of Power of the Daleks, that is my preferred, but as a story. because this was one of the ones that was part of the Omni Rumour in the early ones.

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And this was once, 0 my god, this was going to be just the best thing ever.

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Now we got some good stuff, obviously, but this is perhaps the most painful loss.

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More painful than for you from the deep, more painful than Marco Polo.

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But yeah, tragic.

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I mean, because we're reintroducing the doctor here, and we're used to a way of reintroducing the doctor that is very careful and that's built up to over a long period of time and that's sort of managed.

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And I guess, I guess the example I want to give is just the Eccleston speech at the end of parting of the ways, which is just very much a speech to the audience, to an audience who doesn't know necessarily about regeneration and has to have it explained to them.

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And I'm still going to be the same person and blah, blah, blah.

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Like all of this sort of stuff gets done to try and cushion the blow.

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And there's literally no attempt to do anything like that here.

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In fact, if anything, it goes out of its way to be unsettling.

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Yeah.

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In fact, even in episode two, at the end of episode two, Ben's still saying, is he really the doctor and the doctor's even playing up?

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Yes.

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Yes, he goes, the real doctor.

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Oh, yes.

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Oh, you mean the real doctor?

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Something I thought of when watching it for this podcast.

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I was reminded of the war doctor.

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Now, when Matt Smith says when the war doctor is revealed, yes, I was the same man, but I didn't call myself the doctor, is the doctor deciding after his, depending on how he regarded his 1st regeneration or just the most recent of many, is he still thinking about, am I still a doctor?

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Or am I going to be somebody else now?

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Well, you know, if you watch this in the context of twice upon a time.

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It is a very crowded regenerator.

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Pit Capaldi around the corner, depending on which version you watch, you've either got Matt Smith or Shooty Gatwa standing in the console room going, don't worry, it'll be fine.

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Exactly.

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Yes, a lot of witnesses to this one.

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It is interesting to keep coming back to this regeneration in light of what we learn later.

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And the concept that maybe it's not the 1st regeneration was made explicit in the script, the original script from David Whittaker.

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He had the doctor saying, oh, yeah, I don't like doing this.

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I don't do it unless I absolutely have to.

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I fought it last time and I fought it there.

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Oh, here's an earring I used to wear.

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Yeah, like he'd been through it many times, and they compared in the script, the experience of the renewal was compared to him experiencing the acid trip, like LSD, and reliving all the worst parts of his memories as so like he's in trauma was the idea.

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Yeah, and that's all the shot, that's still there with all the shots of him, the headache, the sort of the...

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Yeah, yeah, yeah. and the odd vision and stuff. and stuff, yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, I had actually forgotten that.

102
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It's kind of funny because you kind of think that it's something that sort of hastily cobbled together in order to just get rid of Hartnell and have a new actor in the role.

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Yeah, yeah.

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And we're not going to explain it.

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And so it sounds like that's not what Whitaker intended at all.

106
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Well, if only they'd let Michael Goff do it.

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It's a big encapsulation of Doctor Who never having been the vision of one person.

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You know, it's when I get annoyed because I love watching fan Doctor Who opening title sequences, which often are better than what we get on TV, but people keep putting up created by Sidney Newman.

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And it's like, no.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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No, it's like Chuck in Verity and David Whittaker as well, and possibly Anthony Coburn.

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And, you know, as we're discovering to her. say that rated.

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That's being edited out.

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But, you know, it's kind of like here we have David Whittaker writes a script that's sort of heavy on mythology and then Jerry Davis and Dennis Spooner, who's sort of called back in to work on the script, go, no, no, no, let's pair it back.

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Let's bring back the mystery, but also David Whittaker overwrite scripts.

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And there's evidence of this throughout all of his work on Doctor Who that someone has to come in and go, no, David.

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And they're over, they overrun terribly.

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Yes, they would have to be cut right down.

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Yeah.

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Right up to ambassadors have death, which basically from episode 2 onwards is Terrence Dix, Trevor Ray and Malcolm Hulk.

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Right.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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But here, for instance, there is a scene in episode 3 where Ben and the doctor are sent for a medical and the doctor's physiognomy just blows up the machine and that's cut out by Dennis Spooner and Christopher Barry's like, oh, thank God, that was the most atrocious padding.

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What happens in part 2 of the wheel in space?

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The doctor is submitted to a medical and he has 2 hearts and everyone's like, oh, he's he's wrecked the machine somehow.

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I really have 2 ups.

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And then we run further with spear from space.

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Yeah, it gets in there eventually.

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Yeah, it gets in there eventually.

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But it just really encapsulates the Doctor Who is by the voices of so many people, right down to Patrick Troughton's presentation because, of course, famously, he wanted to be disguised and there is that story of he wanted to be in blackface.

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It was never done as a makeup test.

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It was immediately vetoed, but he did put on like a fake beard and a wind jammer, captain's outfit.

134
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Yeah, the Harpo Marks wig at one point.

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Yeah.

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And Sidney Newman just went, no, no, no, we want the cosmic hobo.

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Basically, we don't want you in that much makeup.

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And then the Harper Marx Wiig, as you say, came along and it was actually Anika Wills, who said, no, that's completely ridiculous.

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Took the wig off Troughton's head and said, comb his hair like a beetle.

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You know, so even the actors help create this.

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Yeah, and like they actually had written an initial character description for the doctor, which they reworked significantly during this story, because, like Troutton kept saying, how about we do this?

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Like, how about we just change that?

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Like, just sort of ad-libbing and getting more comfortable with the role and then they rewrote his character description by the end of the story, like the character description for future writers had been significantly reworked because they were feeling through it during the recording of this.

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Yeah, I think it also comes down to, you know, Doctor Who has many fathers and mothers is partly because of the way television was made at the time, particularly in the BBC.

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Remember, what we're really watching, and this also explains why so much doesn't exist.

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We watching theatre, which has been recorded for broadcast.

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And the process of making theatre, the actors and so on, like with Anika doing that thing with the hair.

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That's the sort of thing that you just do not get as much now.

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You do not get the ability for that level of person to contribute in large scale television and films in a way that you would have back then.

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So it's more kind of collaborative.

151
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It's collaborative.

152
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Like the theatre is much more.

153
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Even big theatre projects are much more, well, apart from the very big kind of, you know, Broadway musicals, but yeah, traditionally...

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I mean, look at wicked.

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Wicked was significantly workshopped for about 9 months before it went to Broadway and completely changed whole numbers because of the workshopping.

156
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So, like, you actually get a much better product from that workshopping, I think.

157
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It's a huge loss.

158
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Yeah And Dr. is a mess, and I don't mean that as a majority, but it's a mess because of the fact that there are so many people working on it in so many different perspectives across over a long period of time.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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That's great.

161
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I mean, that's one of the things I love about it.

162
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

163
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Yeah.

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I think what's really interesting is just the doctor's absolute refusal to explain what's going on, even though Ben calls him out.

165
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And we have that thing where we have Polly thinks it's the doctor and Ben thinks it probably isn't.

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And even the doctor's not very sure.

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And and what we get is the doctor sort of really becomes the contents of this chest and the contents of the diary, you know.

168
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And so we go through, and in the chest, we get references to his old stories.

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And then, which almost never happened.

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Almost never happened in that era.

171
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Like, weapons is going to market probably 3 years ago.

172
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They mentioned one of the 1st stories.

173
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It's extraordinary.

174
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Yeah, and that sort of clunky foreshadowing.

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Extermination.

176
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Yes, yes.

177
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Yeah, yeah.

178
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And it's a piece of metal that doesn't look like anything we've seen the dialects use before.

179
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Yes, darling.

180
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But, I mean, there's that, and then he's got the 500-year diary.

181
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And so he's got these external objects that kind of represent who he was and he's not 100% there with identifying with any of that yet, which is why he keeps calling him the doctor even into sort of episode two.

182
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And I think he's kind of enjoying annoying Ben to some degree.

183
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Like he's actually kind of enjoying being slightly off putting and we'll come back to that when we talk about the very final scene of the episode.

184
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Also, of course, the 1st thing that he does when he arrives on the planet.

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Vulcan is he impersonates someone different.

186
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So he's impersonating another dead guy for like most of the episode.

187
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And I think that that's very deliberate and very telling.

188
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It's interesting, though.

189
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The way the doctor deals with the doctor's character has already changed.

190
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And there are hints of it and things like savages and war machines and so on like that.

191
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But I think there is a much bigger jump when we come to Power of the Daleks in terms of the doctor saying, no, we must stay.

192
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We't go back to the TARDIS.

193
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We going to stay and sort this out because I know what's going to happen.

194
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And you also get a kind of bit of a presaging of 2 of the cybermany kind of things when with access to the capsule and he sort of helps them get in.

195
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Yeah, yeah.

196
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But then later kind of denies, no, no, you can't do this, you have to destroy them.

197
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But then the very end of the story, Ben accuses him saying, Polly, one of them accuses him of knowing what was going to happen or knowing what could have unfolded and he's all kind of unchalantable.

198
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No, no, he laughs.

199
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Yes, yeah, yeah. laughs in response.

200
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We'll talk more about that a little bit later.

201
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But this story is now historical because it's set in 2020.

202
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Oh, is that?

203
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I don't buy it.

204
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Just because the BBC continuity announcer says something that's in the Red Air Times does not make it.

205
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So Star Trek's already a thing, right?

206
00:16:23.580 --> 00:16:27.360
And I don't know whether it's shown in Britain yet, but it's curious that they actually call the planet Vulcan.

207
00:16:27.419 --> 00:16:31.500
Well, I mean, like Star Trek has started in September of that year.

208
00:16:31.559 --> 00:16:33.419
And this is November.

209
00:16:33.480 --> 00:16:34.139
This is November.

210
00:16:34.200 --> 00:16:34.679
Yeah.

211
00:16:34.740 --> 00:16:40.679
And I believe in the 1st couple of episodes, it's referred to as volcanus.

212
00:16:40.740 --> 00:16:41.759
It's not all.

213
00:16:41.820 --> 00:16:43.860
Yeah, at one point, Spock is referred to as volcanian.

214
00:16:43.860 --> 00:16:46.080
And we see maps saying volcanous.

215
00:16:46.200 --> 00:16:52.320
But by that point by November, it had been named Vulcan in an episode of Star Trek.

216
00:16:52.379 --> 00:16:56.340
So, like, there's no way that the production team would have seen that.

217
00:16:56.399 --> 00:16:57.000
There was no internation.

218
00:16:57.059 --> 00:16:59.039
It's an obvious thing to do.

219
00:16:59.100 --> 00:17:03.840
I mean, Venus is Vulcan's wife in Greek mythology.

220
00:17:03.899 --> 00:17:07.079
So you just pick another kind of figure, yeah.

221
00:17:07.140 --> 00:17:15.000
There's also the fact that Star Trek is not shown in the UK until either late 1969 or mid-1970.

222
00:17:15.180 --> 00:17:18.720
It actually takes Doctor Who slot either after season 6 or season seven.

223
00:17:18.779 --> 00:17:19.380
I can't.

224
00:17:19.440 --> 00:17:20.940
I think it's after, I think it's after 6 actually.

225
00:17:21.000 --> 00:17:21.960
Yeah, because they go colour.

226
00:17:22.019 --> 00:17:22.799
Yes, that makes sense.

227
00:17:22.859 --> 00:17:24.420
Introduction, yeah.

228
00:17:24.480 --> 00:17:28.799
Yeah, it's a matter of following the tradition of naming planets after ancient day.

229
00:17:28.859 --> 00:17:33.119
It's interesting that bucking Terry Nation tradition.

230
00:17:33.180 --> 00:17:34.559
This is not a volcanic planet.

231
00:17:34.920 --> 00:17:38.279
Well, maybe it's volcanic with mercury, right?

232
00:17:38.339 --> 00:17:38.700
Mercury.

233
00:17:38.700 --> 00:17:40.859
Yeah, like IO is sulphur.

234
00:17:40.920 --> 00:17:41.400
Yeah that's true.

235
00:17:41.460 --> 00:17:42.720
So maybe a mercury vulcated.

236
00:17:42.779 --> 00:17:45.480
Yeah, but I think it's also David Whitaker going, mercury pretty.

237
00:17:45.539 --> 00:17:48.059
Yeah, no, because he did mercury before.

238
00:17:48.119 --> 00:17:50.279
You know, like the, we've had a mercury.

239
00:17:50.279 --> 00:17:57.180
Loves his science, boy's own adventure stuff with all of the, like the Dalek having to recite the chemical formulas and...

240
00:17:57.240 --> 00:17:58.440
It's all such Whittaker.

241
00:17:58.500 --> 00:18:01.440
But I mean, there is something kind of alchemical about mercury.

242
00:18:01.500 --> 00:18:09.779
This is what Xander goes on about at great length, is the idea that the doctor is, a mercurial figure, particularly in this incarnation.

243
00:18:09.839 --> 00:18:16.859
And, you know, Mercury is heavily associated with his kind of weird childishness in the Daleks.

244
00:18:16.920 --> 00:18:21.359
You know, he drops the fluid link and we have to go back to the city for some more episodes.

245
00:18:22.619 --> 00:18:24.660
I won't watch them.

246
00:18:27.720 --> 00:18:35.759
But yeah, I was thinking about the mercury thing as well, because I'm kind of like, it serves the nation function of separating them from the TARDIS.

247
00:18:35.819 --> 00:18:37.200
But as Polly and Ben point out.

248
00:18:37.259 --> 00:18:38.579
We can still walk around out there.

249
00:18:38.640 --> 00:18:41.339
We can still go back to the TARDIS if we want.

250
00:18:41.400 --> 00:18:44.519
I was kind of thinking, okay, so why Mercury?

251
00:18:44.579 --> 00:18:47.519
And I was thinking about that scene where Ben tells Polly not to touch it.

252
00:18:47.640 --> 00:18:50.700
And it's like, Mercury is beautiful, right?

253
00:18:50.759 --> 00:18:52.140
It is shimmery.

254
00:18:52.200 --> 00:18:53.160
It is shiny.

255
00:18:53.220 --> 00:18:57.660
And we know in the modern day that it is dangerous to touch.

256
00:18:57.839 --> 00:19:06.779
The Daleks represent this technological advance for the colony and something they can use to barter with earth.

257
00:19:06.839 --> 00:19:17.460
And, you know, it's implied that there is sort of colonial tension with the home planet because the examiners arrived and no one knows why and oh, they're spying on us.

258
00:19:17.519 --> 00:19:19.980
This could give us leverage over Earth.

259
00:19:20.039 --> 00:19:29.400
So I do actually think for, you know, for once, it's thematically relevant to sort of have the mercury there because it doesn't play any function later on in the story.

260
00:19:29.460 --> 00:19:41.579
No, I mean, and it's quicksilver. a liquid and it's a metal and it's always been a sort of very strange thing and it, you know, mercurial means changing constantly.

261
00:19:41.640 --> 00:19:44.940
And we've got the doctor doing that here.

262
00:19:45.000 --> 00:19:48.059
I think it's a Whittaker thing, though, isn't it?

263
00:19:48.180 --> 00:19:50.039
think it's just a whittier thing, the Mercury. just loves it.

264
00:19:50.099 --> 00:19:52.799
And it is immediately alien world.

265
00:19:52.859 --> 00:19:57.000
Yes, yes, it's not pools of acid and stuff. acid.

266
00:19:57.059 --> 00:19:58.200
Now mercury. that's right.

267
00:19:58.259 --> 00:19:59.700
Enough mercury.

268
00:20:00.059 --> 00:20:10.740
So the thing about the colony, I think, is really kind of interesting, because I don't quite know how to read what's going on there politically.

269
00:20:10.799 --> 00:20:22.559
So it's clear that there are rebels and Bragen, the head of security, who is the wonderful Bernard Archard, who was Marcus Carmen.

270
00:20:22.619 --> 00:20:28.680
And he talks about their newspapers and the small acts of sabotage newspapers. hilarious.

271
00:20:28.680 --> 00:20:29.640
It's very delightful.

272
00:20:29.700 --> 00:20:31.200
It's like their notice board.

273
00:20:31.259 --> 00:20:32.039
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

274
00:20:32.099 --> 00:20:33.539
That gives the messages.

275
00:20:33.599 --> 00:20:35.519
There's their notice board, which has bad wolf.

276
00:20:37.319 --> 00:20:40.019
Just tremendous.

277
00:20:40.019 --> 00:20:40.980
He was starting earlier.

278
00:20:41.039 --> 00:20:47.880
I did actually freeze frame and read the notice board, which did seem to be about milk supplies or something like that.

279
00:20:48.059 --> 00:20:48.960
Oh, this is on the holiday.

280
00:20:49.019 --> 00:20:49.500
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

281
00:20:49.559 --> 00:20:53.519
One of the one of the like radios or something has from Magpie Electronics.

282
00:20:53.579 --> 00:20:54.299
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

283
00:20:54.660 --> 00:21:03.119
And I don't quite know how to read it because because they're rebels, I am inclined to think that I'm meant to be on their side.

284
00:21:04.559 --> 00:21:05.220
1966.

285
00:21:05.339 --> 00:21:11.339
Well, it is 1966, but I guess the closest that we've had is the savages at this point.

286
00:21:11.700 --> 00:21:19.980
And later on when we have rebels, you know, because the doctor will eventually turn into someone who overthrows kind of... authoritarian regime.

287
00:21:20.039 --> 00:21:20.700
Yeah, that's right.

288
00:21:20.759 --> 00:21:26.700
And so the rebels tend to be the good guys, but I do think that we are actually a bit early for that as the obvious reading it.

289
00:21:26.759 --> 00:21:28.200
I might be back reading it into it.

290
00:21:28.259 --> 00:21:31.380
There are rebels when, for instance, the Daleks invade Earth.

291
00:21:31.440 --> 00:21:32.099
There are rebels.

292
00:21:32.160 --> 00:21:39.180
So we've already had rebels in that way or when the Xerons are invaded.

293
00:21:39.240 --> 00:21:42.119
They are the rebels, but we're sympathising with them because they are the invaded.

294
00:21:42.180 --> 00:21:46.019
Yeah, I think a more accurate way of reading this is that everybody is a bastard.

295
00:21:46.079 --> 00:21:46.440
Yeah.

296
00:21:46.500 --> 00:21:48.720
Oh, no, I absolutely think that that's the reading.

297
00:21:48.779 --> 00:21:50.279
No, I'm not quite prepared to go that far.

298
00:21:50.339 --> 00:21:58.619
Well, I think that what it is because we never find out what the what the rebels want and what their grievances are.

299
00:21:58.680 --> 00:21:59.160
No, we don't.

300
00:21:59.220 --> 00:22:06.299
And it seems like the governor that Henschel is kind of politically popular.

301
00:22:06.480 --> 00:22:10.619
And I mean, the closest thing that we get to a conversation.

302
00:22:10.680 --> 00:22:12.240
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

303
00:22:12.299 --> 00:22:21.960
The closest we get to an actual political conversation is a conversation between Janley and Rezno, where Rezno's clearly kind of against the rebels and Janley's, one of them, and he knows that.

304
00:22:23.220 --> 00:22:27.599
Well, yeah, they have this sort of angry conversation with one another.

305
00:22:27.660 --> 00:22:31.440
And then Leicesterson says, this is a scientific laboratory.

306
00:22:31.500 --> 00:22:33.779
This is no place for your politics, and we put a stop to it.

307
00:22:33.839 --> 00:22:47.400
But that whole political thing, it's not explained in any way, but it does seem to be, this is the sort of thing that human beings do, and this is the sort of context in which human beings regularly kill one another.

308
00:22:47.460 --> 00:22:51.420
But there's also, I think it's towards the end of the last episode.

309
00:22:51.480 --> 00:23:01.140
There's an interesting line between Quinn and Valmar where he basically says, oh, you know, Henshaw, you know, he wasn't a bad man.

310
00:23:01.200 --> 00:23:08.220
Yeah, he was a bit stuffy, a bit stuck in his ways, but overall, he actually cared about this colony and wanted to do good by it.

311
00:23:08.279 --> 00:23:08.880
Yeah.

312
00:23:08.880 --> 00:23:10.500
What's that to Velma?

313
00:23:10.559 --> 00:23:11.099
that to the doctor?

314
00:23:11.160 --> 00:23:12.359
That was to the doctor.

315
00:23:12.480 --> 00:23:19.380
But Quinn and Velma do sort of represent the 2 sides by the end of it and agree to work together to rebuild the column.

316
00:23:19.440 --> 00:23:20.039
Yeah, yeah.

317
00:23:20.099 --> 00:23:33.900
So if you think about colonialism at the time and the Reish Empire is well on the way to being dismantled when this goes out, but nevertheless, there are still governors of Kong and all that sort of stuff and, you know, all the African states are still kind of getting independence around this time.

318
00:23:33.960 --> 00:23:41.039
So it's quite clear that there is no democracy on this planet because the governor would have been sent by Earth as a basically a bureaucrat, right?

319
00:23:41.099 --> 00:23:43.859
Quinn's the deputy governor and Breagan's head of security or whatever.

320
00:23:43.920 --> 00:23:45.839
They are bureaucrats running a colony.

321
00:23:45.900 --> 00:23:50.099
There doesn't seem to be any evidence at all that there is any kind of democratic process within the colony itself.

322
00:23:50.220 --> 00:23:57.059
Having said that, I don't get the sense that the rebels are democratic revolutionaries.

323
00:23:57.119 --> 00:24:00.299
They're not trying to say we want to be able to vote for our governor.

324
00:24:00.359 --> 00:24:01.859
More rebel than a rebel.

325
00:24:01.920 --> 00:24:03.000
Well exactly.

326
00:24:03.059 --> 00:24:05.220
It's interesting, this could be just me.

327
00:24:05.279 --> 00:24:07.440
I view the rebels as communists.

328
00:24:07.500 --> 00:24:12.839
And I'm wondering whether they're supposed to be viewed as communists because Bragan is a fascist.

329
00:24:12.900 --> 00:24:15.119
As soon as he assumes the position of governing.

330
00:24:15.180 --> 00:24:20.339
Yes, puts on lovely, lovely, you know, the epaulettes and things, badges and things.

331
00:24:20.460 --> 00:24:22.440
That is Hugo Boss.

332
00:24:22.500 --> 00:24:23.220
Yes, exactly.

333
00:24:23.279 --> 00:24:35.700
And for me, Quinn and Hensel are the centrists, are the ones trying to manage, as best they can, the divisions and just try and get us to tomorrow and make sure that we get to next week and next year.

334
00:24:35.759 --> 00:24:46.440
So Janley and Bragan are trying to use the communists to overthrow the status quo so that they can then seize power as the kind of more fascistic.

335
00:24:46.500 --> 00:24:49.619
Because, of course, if what is the 1st thing Reagan does, he institutes martial law.

336
00:24:49.680 --> 00:24:50.579
Yeah, yeah.

337
00:24:50.640 --> 00:24:57.839
But I think I think because we don't get any specific idea of the grievances and the problems that we have to read. it in.

338
00:24:57.900 --> 00:24:58.980
What's pencil doing wrong?

339
00:24:59.039 --> 00:24:59.759
Yeah, that's right.

340
00:24:59.819 --> 00:25:14.759
I think that that makes it much more just a political thing because I think one of the things that the Daleks do is that they comment on what's happening in the human realm.

341
00:25:14.880 --> 00:25:18.779
And so we'll get to that, I think, when we talk about the Daleks in a moment.

342
00:25:18.839 --> 00:25:22.200
But I think there's a deliberate generality towards that.

343
00:25:22.259 --> 00:25:26.519
If they were sort of complaining about, you know, methane rations or something tedious.

344
00:25:26.640 --> 00:25:27.240
Yes.

345
00:25:27.240 --> 00:25:27.779
You know what I mean?

346
00:25:27.839 --> 00:25:30.420
Yeah, if they had space reasons for their thing.

347
00:25:30.480 --> 00:25:34.079
That would have been much worse and we just sort of talking about political activity.

348
00:25:34.140 --> 00:25:36.119
I feel it stronger because we don't really know.

349
00:25:36.119 --> 00:25:36.539
Yes.

350
00:25:36.599 --> 00:25:37.440
We don't need to know.

351
00:25:37.500 --> 00:25:39.779
There's obviously stuff going on that they're dissatisfied with.

352
00:25:39.900 --> 00:25:40.259
Yeah.

353
00:25:40.319 --> 00:25:46.019
And it also means that we as viewers don't, we don't hate Hansel.

354
00:25:46.079 --> 00:25:47.579
We don't hate Velma.

355
00:25:47.640 --> 00:25:49.079
I hate Keble.

356
00:25:49.140 --> 00:25:52.559
I would argue we don't even hate Janley all that much.

357
00:25:52.619 --> 00:25:53.579
Oh, no, we don't.

358
00:25:53.700 --> 00:25:55.859
Although, she's very brutal.

359
00:25:55.920 --> 00:26:00.359
That thing, where, where, it's Resno, isn't it?

360
00:26:00.359 --> 00:26:08.940
is killed, and we're told, and I think we're inclined to believe it, that he's just in hospital. and we've got no way of knowing that that's not true.

361
00:26:09.000 --> 00:26:14.880
And then later on we discovered that she's just dragged his body into a mercury swamp after he was killed by the Daleks.

362
00:26:14.940 --> 00:26:21.539
Actually, like, it's not even, oh, she thinks he's unconscious and then realises like, she knows he's dead when she's checking.

363
00:26:21.599 --> 00:26:26.099
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. lies about it. to use it later against Leicesterson.

364
00:26:26.160 --> 00:26:28.980
And Velma does say later she's not as bad as you think.

365
00:26:29.880 --> 00:26:38.940
Because he was like, he was like her boyfriend or something and he kind of overhears her chatting with Brake and about killing all the rebels.

366
00:26:39.059 --> 00:26:39.960
Yes.

367
00:26:40.019 --> 00:26:50.880
I'm always sympathising with Hensel and Quinn as the people who, and you know, Quinn, because Quinn is trying to warn Hensel about, you know, you can't trust Bragen, you can't just, you know, you're not listening to me, provide the advice.

368
00:26:50.940 --> 00:26:57.420
I think because we don't get a sense of what their grievance really is, it's in some respects, it's just that, well, we just think we can do a better job.

369
00:26:57.480 --> 00:26:59.819
And I think that is actually a thing.

370
00:26:59.940 --> 00:27:06.240
I was actually going to put it, and I wonder whether this is a Whittakerrism, going back to the birth of the show, the idea of historicals.

371
00:27:06.299 --> 00:27:11.400
There is something about this, which feels like it's happening in the context of an historical event.

372
00:27:11.519 --> 00:27:24.059
Like, I think all of that political chicanery is going on to, it's a bit of world building, but it is, it's, it's this idea that the doctor and co have arrived in this place where this stuff is happening.

373
00:27:24.119 --> 00:27:27.000
It's just the fact that we don't know historically what it is.

374
00:27:27.059 --> 00:27:28.380
But it does have that feeling.

375
00:27:28.380 --> 00:27:30.480
And then the Dalek stuff is overlaid onto that.

376
00:27:30.539 --> 00:27:34.500
And I think that's one of the reasons why it's so powerful and successful. as a story.

377
00:27:34.559 --> 00:27:57.480
Well, you know, Whittaker's perspective on historical intervention in Doctor Who, he outlines at the beginning of the crusade novelisation, which is basically, even if the doctor and his friends were to influence an historical event like telling a military leader not to turn up, something else would happen to make sure it happens.

378
00:27:57.539 --> 00:27:59.819
So it's therefore interesting that...

379
00:27:59.819 --> 00:28:01.079
And that's basically the Aztecs line.

380
00:28:01.140 --> 00:28:02.279
Yes, yes, effectively.

381
00:28:02.339 --> 00:28:05.160
So it's therefore interesting that as opposed to the Rosa line.

382
00:28:05.220 --> 00:28:05.700
Yeah.

383
00:28:06.480 --> 00:28:14.700
It's therefore interesting that the doctor at no point attempts to influence the politics of the colony.

384
00:28:14.759 --> 00:28:19.680
The doctor's sole thing is attempting to stop the Daleks.

385
00:28:19.799 --> 00:28:21.539
And that's the thing.

386
00:28:21.599 --> 00:28:28.140
As soon as Bragen replaces Hensel, The doctor's still saying to Bragan, right, well, then you need to stop the doctor.

387
00:28:28.440 --> 00:28:32.279
You know, the doctor doesn't care that this fascist has taken over this little human colony.

388
00:28:32.339 --> 00:28:34.680
Oh, well, stop the Daleks, please.

389
00:28:34.799 --> 00:28:43.500
But also, isn't it yes, but isn't it interesting that the doctor, until the very end, the doctor's trying to get the authority to stop them?

390
00:28:43.559 --> 00:28:44.279
Yes.

391
00:28:44.339 --> 00:28:48.480
He's not saying, well, they're not doing anything about it, so I'm going to plant a bomb or I'm going to do whatever.

392
00:28:48.539 --> 00:28:51.299
He only does that when it's basically there's no other way.

393
00:28:51.359 --> 00:28:55.500
Well, early on, he does, when there's just one Dalek activator.

394
00:28:55.559 --> 00:28:56.759
He does try to overload it.

395
00:28:56.819 --> 00:29:00.900
He makes he makes friends with Leicesterson and then throws a switch.

396
00:29:00.960 --> 00:29:07.380
But yeah, then he does kind of go, okay, well, if they're not, if they're not going to listen to me, I have to work, I have to sort of work within their system.

397
00:29:14.279 --> 00:29:25.440
So, I mentioned that the doctor, or at least the 1st doctor in this story seems to inhabit a box, and of course, there's another box in the story, which contains the Daleks.

398
00:29:25.500 --> 00:29:30.839
And so when we 1st see the Daleks, it's just 2 of them covered in cobwebs.

399
00:29:30.900 --> 00:29:36.720
And it seems to me that the Daleks are a bit crap at the beginning of this story.

400
00:29:36.779 --> 00:29:45.720
And this story, I think, absolutely serves as a proper origin story for the Daleks.

401
00:29:45.779 --> 00:29:49.619
So we start with them as sort of being shrieking monsters in a city.

402
00:29:49.680 --> 00:29:51.539
I think I may have said this in FTE.

403
00:29:51.599 --> 00:30:00.720
Then they invade Earth, then they start chasing the doctor, then they are going to blow up the galaxy.

404
00:30:00.779 --> 00:30:05.160
And they become the, you know, they're the Mekon, aren't they?

405
00:30:05.220 --> 00:30:09.660
They're like some weird giant space opera thing.

406
00:30:09.720 --> 00:30:12.960
And that's not how Whittaker sees them.

407
00:30:13.079 --> 00:30:22.440
Because when the doctor describes the threat that they pose, the threat that they pose, the thing that they do better than anything else is exterminate human beings.

408
00:30:22.500 --> 00:30:26.460
It's not they exterminate.

409
00:30:26.519 --> 00:30:28.319
Yeah, the weird aliens salation.

410
00:30:28.380 --> 00:30:32.039
Like they don't, like, that's not, that's not what he talks about.

411
00:30:32.099 --> 00:30:38.880
Yeah, and he takes that to a further degree in evil where he basically says they are the opposite of...

412
00:30:38.880 --> 00:30:39.480
Yes.

413
00:30:39.539 --> 00:30:45.599
Remember that we're still in that kind of zone where they call anyone who looks like us around the universe human.

414
00:30:45.900 --> 00:30:53.460
But, but I do think it's kind of telling that we get them in a human colony, not a foul colony, not, you know, anything like that.

415
00:30:53.519 --> 00:30:57.119
This is a human colony and they're a threat to us.

416
00:30:57.180 --> 00:31:27.720
But, you know, like Leicesterson says they're replacing us in episode six, you know, they're the, they're the sort of new, yeah, the next, but I do think that there is some way in which the dialects are enabled by the politics of the colony because Leicesterson's a fanatic and and because Bragan is a fascist and all of that sort of thing and it's people's ambition and human greed and stuff like that that allows them to be unleashed.

417
00:31:27.779 --> 00:31:36.000
But I think that it's interesting the way that they they track the escalation of the politics of the colony.

418
00:31:36.059 --> 00:31:38.640
So killing Hensel is done by a Dalek.

419
00:31:38.700 --> 00:31:41.940
It's not breaking just getting a gun out.

420
00:31:42.000 --> 00:31:49.440
And in episode six, which starts with the Daleks declaring that everyone in the colony is to be killed.

421
00:31:49.500 --> 00:31:54.420
The very next scene has break and declaring that all of the rebels are to be killed.

422
00:31:54.480 --> 00:32:00.119
And so there's going to be a massacre in that final episode either way.

423
00:32:00.180 --> 00:32:09.720
And so thematically, I think, the Daleks become identified with human evil and the human propensity for killing.

424
00:32:10.559 --> 00:32:20.940
You know, Whitaker's original idea for why the doctor hated the Dalek so much in this story was because they had destroyed his homeworld.

425
00:32:22.079 --> 00:32:24.240
Well, isn't there that thing?

426
00:32:24.299 --> 00:32:30.960
There's that thing that's never explained, whether he says something about the Daleks and then he says, and there's something else about them that I can't remember.

427
00:32:31.019 --> 00:32:33.480
You know, yeah.

428
00:32:33.539 --> 00:32:35.759
So, I mean, it is a direct line from here.

429
00:32:35.819 --> 00:32:44.160
Like there's a reason why the daleks become the enemies of the timelords, you know, because it's the dalek that recognises the doctor.

430
00:32:44.220 --> 00:32:45.299
Like, absolutely.

431
00:32:45.420 --> 00:32:46.680
Yeah, post-regenerate.

432
00:32:46.740 --> 00:32:47.220
Yeah, yeah.

433
00:32:47.279 --> 00:32:48.359
I think that's an interesting point.

434
00:32:48.420 --> 00:32:50.700
They could have so easily say, oh, the dialects aren't going to know who he is.

435
00:32:50.759 --> 00:32:56.579
But we're supposed to believe there is a sort of flash of recognition there that the doctor is recognisable even after a generation.

436
00:32:56.640 --> 00:33:00.240
That's why they keep trying to kill him when they're being ordered not to.

437
00:33:00.299 --> 00:33:01.799
It's like, try to stop that killing me.

438
00:33:01.859 --> 00:33:02.700
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

439
00:33:02.700 --> 00:33:07.440
And like, that's at a time where still Ben and Polly are squabbling over whether it's the doctor.

440
00:33:07.500 --> 00:33:08.400
It's in episode two.

441
00:33:08.460 --> 00:33:09.779
And it just sees him.

442
00:33:09.839 --> 00:33:10.859
It's in the office.

443
00:33:10.920 --> 00:33:13.440
Yeah, and we see down the down the tube.

444
00:33:14.039 --> 00:33:14.700
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

445
00:33:14.759 --> 00:33:20.099
And like Ben recognises that the Dalek recognises him and that's definitely what's happening.

446
00:33:20.160 --> 00:33:22.859
And so they're the doctor's opposite as well.

447
00:33:22.920 --> 00:33:26.759
Like they're not just human evil kind of personified.

448
00:33:26.819 --> 00:33:28.980
They become a mythic enemy to the doctor.

449
00:33:29.039 --> 00:33:34.319
I think the other interesting thing that does go back to basics with the Daleks. you know, the whole static electricity thing.

450
00:33:34.380 --> 00:33:36.599
The whole, they are fragile.

451
00:33:36.660 --> 00:33:39.900
They're not, even though, you know, they've got these war machining casings.

452
00:33:39.960 --> 00:33:47.700
They've still got strength that they need to build up before they can take over, even in episode 5, or we are not yet ready to teach these human beings the law of the dark.

453
00:33:47.759 --> 00:33:50.220
We're not ready, we are not powerful enough.

454
00:33:50.279 --> 00:33:52.500
It's that thing that I believe was said.

455
00:33:52.559 --> 00:33:58.319
I don't know whether this is an unkind thing that was said, but apparently the worst thing that happened to Terry Nation's writing to the Daleks was that he saw the Daleks.

456
00:33:58.440 --> 00:34:02.880
So amazing, which is why the writing of the Daleks, it changes.

457
00:34:02.940 --> 00:34:05.940
Once we see them and we hear them, the writing changes.

458
00:34:06.059 --> 00:34:08.219
Now Whittaker is remembering the original concept.

459
00:34:08.400 --> 00:34:22.019
And especially when we have the, like, the, you know, we get the Dalek mutant, I think for the 1st time, really, we get a Dalek mutant since the Daleks, they've kind of disappeared, that stuff is all brought back and the little, you know, bubbling ball of hate or whatever.

460
00:34:22.079 --> 00:34:22.860
McCoy calls it.

461
00:34:22.920 --> 00:34:32.820
There's even a light in the story where Ben describes the Dalek as having a claw, like in the original story, even though the prop doesn't have any sort of whatsoever.

462
00:34:32.880 --> 00:34:37.320
I just thought, because the proper looks like a hand puppet scuttling on the floor.

463
00:34:37.380 --> 00:34:38.460
Yeah, it is.

464
00:34:39.059 --> 00:34:46.559
The other thing I want to mention about the way the Daleks are in this story is how much it presages Genesis of the Daleks.

465
00:34:46.619 --> 00:34:52.260
Not so much as an origin story for the Daleks, but the way that there is no Dalek in the 1st episode until the very end.

466
00:34:52.320 --> 00:34:52.980
Yes.

467
00:34:52.980 --> 00:34:55.199
Then they gradually appear one by one.

468
00:34:55.260 --> 00:34:57.480
First, there's one, then there's three, then there's more.

469
00:34:57.539 --> 00:35:01.260
And by the time you get to episode five, there's 1000000s of them.

470
00:35:01.320 --> 00:35:04.739
Well, a bunch of cardboard ones in there. many of them.

471
00:35:05.280 --> 00:35:08.039
You know, taking control.

472
00:35:08.039 --> 00:35:18.119
And I think that's one of the reasons for me why it's one of the most successful dialect stories is because they're not used too much and they build and the menace builds more and more.

473
00:35:18.179 --> 00:35:25.559
But every cliffhanger is a new stage in them, every cliffhanger is a dale cliffhanger.

474
00:35:25.619 --> 00:35:32.760
And the I am your servant one, that incredible one at the end of episode two, where they're drowning out the doctor's warnings.

475
00:35:32.820 --> 00:35:35.340
Like a doctor is saying they'll kill you all.

476
00:35:35.460 --> 00:35:37.500
Shouting the doctor, shouting over the doctor.

477
00:35:37.559 --> 00:35:38.940
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

478
00:35:39.000 --> 00:35:43.860
And, you know, like he tries to kind of do that again with Evil of the Daleks and the dizzy doctor stuff. you know.

479
00:35:43.920 --> 00:35:47.280
But this, like it just doesn't compare to how great this is.

480
00:35:47.340 --> 00:35:52.920
And every episode ends with the Daleks entering a new phase. getting that little bit more power.

481
00:35:52.980 --> 00:35:53.579
Yeah, yeah.

482
00:35:53.639 --> 00:35:58.860
And, you know, the incredible cliffhanger to episode four, much of which we can see.

483
00:35:58.920 --> 00:36:00.480
The Darling Passionland.

484
00:36:00.539 --> 00:36:01.559
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

485
00:36:01.619 --> 00:36:03.119
So you think that's better than this?

486
00:36:03.119 --> 00:36:04.260
Darius Conquer on disjoint.

487
00:36:04.320 --> 00:36:05.039
Oh, no, Carl.

488
00:36:05.099 --> 00:36:05.639
No, no, no.

489
00:36:05.699 --> 00:36:07.139
That's absolutely superb.

490
00:36:07.199 --> 00:36:08.820
That's a massively great moment.

491
00:36:08.940 --> 00:36:10.679
So that's episode five.

492
00:36:10.800 --> 00:36:18.179
But I think episode 4 is really good because, like, like the script is structured around the fact that we have only 3 props.

493
00:36:18.239 --> 00:36:20.099
I think there are 4 props there.

494
00:36:20.159 --> 00:36:26.880
But, like, there's very much a, there's that moment where they say, oh, just make sure that they only ever see.

495
00:36:27.719 --> 00:36:32.880
Actually, they actually cannibalise the 5 props they had to make.

496
00:36:32.880 --> 00:36:33.119
Right.

497
00:36:33.179 --> 00:36:33.539
Right.

498
00:36:33.599 --> 00:36:34.199
Oh, they had five.

499
00:36:34.260 --> 00:36:40.920
Yeah, they had they had 2 original ones, one that had been refurbished from a movie Dalek.

500
00:36:40.920 --> 00:36:41.400
Really?

501
00:36:41.400 --> 00:36:46.980
And a lightweight one that had been made for the chase, and I think another goon from the chase.

502
00:36:47.039 --> 00:36:49.440
And I think they put together the best parts of the goon.

503
00:36:49.500 --> 00:36:57.179
But, I mean, because there's that great moment at the end of episode 4 where the Daleks, there's just heaps of Daleks coming through that doorway.

504
00:36:57.239 --> 00:36:58.739
And they're cleaning a paws.

505
00:36:58.800 --> 00:36:59.880
Three, then a pause.

506
00:36:59.940 --> 00:37:00.900
Yeah, there's a pause.

507
00:37:01.019 --> 00:37:02.940
Like you can actually count.

508
00:37:03.000 --> 00:37:04.079
Yeah, that's right.

509
00:37:04.139 --> 00:37:04.739
That's right.

510
00:37:04.860 --> 00:37:05.820
That's their peddling.

511
00:37:07.500 --> 00:37:08.880
He's trying to get around the corner.

512
00:37:08.940 --> 00:37:13.679
But, you know, there's minutes and minutes of no dialogue at all.

513
00:37:13.739 --> 00:37:16.500
It's entirely visual and you've got Leicesterson there.

514
00:37:16.559 --> 00:37:23.579
So he's observing it and he sees it happening and of course it kind of drives him mad because of what he's done.

515
00:37:23.639 --> 00:37:30.360
But I do think that it is an origin story of the Daleks in the same way you get Leicesterson saying, I gave you life.

516
00:37:30.420 --> 00:37:31.800
I gave you power, I can take it away.

517
00:37:31.860 --> 00:37:33.900
There's so much Nider and Davros, Sydney.

518
00:37:33.960 --> 00:37:37.679
Yeah, yeah, yeah. well And the way his story evolves.

519
00:37:37.739 --> 00:37:41.579
I love the fact Leicesterson goes mad in stages.

520
00:37:41.639 --> 00:37:48.900
Like there's that moment of realisation that, I think, in episode 3 and then in episode four, he starts to think, no, no, no, this is definitely wrong.

521
00:37:48.960 --> 00:37:51.300
And then it's seeing the Darlic production line that he goes properly mad.

522
00:37:51.360 --> 00:37:58.019
And even then his madness changes throughout, but the time you get to episode six, he's going, oh, no, but you know, they're our future and that's wonderful.

523
00:37:58.079 --> 00:37:59.699
You know, he just goes completely dimensed.

524
00:37:59.820 --> 00:38:00.900
You could not do that.

525
00:38:00.960 --> 00:38:03.119
I don't know, I'll come back this many times.

526
00:38:03.179 --> 00:38:04.739
You cannot do that in 45 minutes.

527
00:38:04.860 --> 00:38:05.760
Yeah, you don't have time.

528
00:38:05.820 --> 00:38:06.360
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

529
00:38:06.420 --> 00:38:08.039
You need something like a six-part story either.

530
00:38:08.099 --> 00:38:09.360
I mean, he's terrific.

531
00:38:09.420 --> 00:38:13.980
So he is, of course, the high priest of Demnos in Mask of Mandragra.

532
00:38:14.699 --> 00:38:18.659
And he's Van Glynd in the 1st episode of Blake 7.

533
00:38:19.559 --> 00:38:22.199
And I reckon...

534
00:38:22.320 --> 00:38:24.239
But you know who we haven't mentioned is Mr. Chin.

535
00:38:24.300 --> 00:38:25.619
Yes, Mr. Chin.

536
00:38:25.679 --> 00:38:26.219
Robert Bathurst?

537
00:38:26.280 --> 00:38:27.539
It's your head on the rock, Blagen.

538
00:38:27.539 --> 00:38:28.440
Not mine.

539
00:38:28.559 --> 00:38:29.820
So great.

540
00:38:29.880 --> 00:38:30.780
So good.

541
00:38:30.900 --> 00:38:37.980
And in the in the animation, actually, I think that Leicesterson comes off very well because he's just got such an incredible look.

542
00:38:38.039 --> 00:38:42.659
I mean, so does Bragen, obviously, but both of them are such.

543
00:38:42.719 --> 00:38:45.059
I mean, they're great performances, aren't they?

544
00:38:45.119 --> 00:38:46.980
Like all of the guest performances.

545
00:38:47.039 --> 00:38:52.739
All of the guests, with the possible exception of one or 2 of the rebels that only get one or 2 liners of dialogue are fantastic.

546
00:38:52.800 --> 00:38:53.940
They're all good.

547
00:38:54.000 --> 00:38:54.900
They're all thought through.

548
00:38:54.960 --> 00:38:55.619
Yeah.

549
00:38:56.159 --> 00:38:56.639
Magic.

550
00:38:56.760 --> 00:39:02.219
Yeah, big shout outs as well for Pamela Ran, Davey, and the only female as only.

551
00:39:02.280 --> 00:39:03.480
The only female other than...

552
00:39:03.599 --> 00:39:05.159
Oh no, there is a female extra that gets exterminated.

553
00:39:05.219 --> 00:39:05.880
Yes, that's right.

554
00:39:05.940 --> 00:39:06.420
That's true.

555
00:39:06.599 --> 00:39:15.480
Who doesn't return to Doctor Who, but the following year to this would be seen in the Avengers, in quite a similar role, she's nominally a ghost hunter.

556
00:39:15.539 --> 00:39:20.400
She flirts a lot with Steve to get her own way, but actually turns out she's 2nd in command of an underground fascist organisation.

557
00:39:21.659 --> 00:39:27.300
When I say underground, I mean, they're literally underground. what are you doing that?

558
00:39:27.300 --> 00:39:28.860
the 3 hatch game.

559
00:39:28.920 --> 00:39:32.579
Well, I suppose we could pair it up with bizarre, because that happens.

560
00:39:32.579 --> 00:39:35.519
You just need to find a Kathy Gale with an underground world.

561
00:39:35.579 --> 00:39:37.079
I just wanted to shamelessly plug that.

562
00:39:37.139 --> 00:39:37.980
Yes, thank you very much.

563
00:39:38.039 --> 00:39:41.699
But her leader in that is Julian Glover by the way. wonderful.

564
00:39:54.059 --> 00:40:07.380
Something that's so interesting to me with the Daleks in this is the new series has arguably reinvented the Daleks 3 times, in Dalek, the Hory of the Daleks and Resolution.

565
00:40:07.440 --> 00:40:10.440
And each time it borrows elements from this.

566
00:40:10.500 --> 00:40:14.760
So Van Staten basically wants the dialect to be his servant.

567
00:40:14.820 --> 00:40:26.519
And in Rob Shearman's very early drafts, Ben Staten's motivation was to get the Dalek to sing Happy Birthday to his wife. to turn it into a toy basically, which is what Leicesterson wants to do.

568
00:40:26.579 --> 00:40:33.119
And there's a scene in Dalek where the doctor is giving the dialect orders and orders it to die here.

569
00:40:33.179 --> 00:40:35.219
The doctor orders it to immobilise itself.

570
00:40:35.340 --> 00:40:38.460
Victory of the Daleks.

571
00:40:38.460 --> 00:40:39.539
Just shamelessly ribs it off.

572
00:40:39.539 --> 00:40:40.800
Shamelessly rips it off.

573
00:40:40.860 --> 00:40:46.559
The doctor is needed in order to convince the Daleks to produce the ultimate dalek.

574
00:40:46.619 --> 00:40:52.500
And it's kind of a moment for the audience to go, oh, this is definitely the doctor because the Daleks recognise him just like it is here.

575
00:40:52.559 --> 00:41:03.840
And then, of course, in resolution, the doctor scares the Dalek by saying, scan me, you know who I am, and that sort of propels the Dalek's plan forward.

576
00:41:03.900 --> 00:41:04.559
And what does it do?

577
00:41:04.619 --> 00:41:10.619
It takes over human communications networks in an effort to take over the world and summon its own kind.

578
00:41:10.800 --> 00:41:16.920
The new series when it revents Daleks, it doesn't go for going back to Skaro.

579
00:41:17.340 --> 00:41:21.179
Except for Magician's Apprentice, which is familiar, which is not really a reinvention.

580
00:41:21.239 --> 00:41:22.500
It's just going back to Scarrow.

581
00:41:22.619 --> 00:41:29.519
It is a kind of genesis of the Daleks in the sense that it restages those conversations between the doctor and Danfrost.

582
00:41:29.579 --> 00:41:33.539
But it's not an origin story for the Daleks in the way that this is, I think.

583
00:41:33.599 --> 00:41:34.380
Yeah.

584
00:41:34.380 --> 00:41:38.159
I think too, there is something about the static electricity as well.

585
00:41:38.219 --> 00:41:59.820
So the daleks and the humans have a different kind of power, but they're both dependent on power, and it's episode five, which is perhaps the episode with the least incident in it, despite the death of Hensel, it's a little bit slow because you've got a, you know, the great cliffhanger of 4 and the great cliffhanger of 5 and we're just kind of...

586
00:41:59.880 --> 00:42:06.360
Yeah, but there are some terrific shots of Daleks with sort of curly cables, you know. which is kind of great.

587
00:42:06.420 --> 00:42:17.219
But that link between the power of the colony and the power of the Daleks, it's the link between them that enables the doctor to destroy them.

588
00:42:17.280 --> 00:42:26.639
And it's at the end where he feeds back the power and ends up destroying the power structure of the colony.

589
00:42:26.699 --> 00:42:38.519
You know, the power structure of the colony, the power structure of the Daleks is seen to be linked in the way that kind of metaphorically the Daleks and the kind of human politics are linked.

590
00:42:38.579 --> 00:42:55.619
And so when the doctor destroys the Daleks, He destroys the colony's power system, its power structure, and then leaves, and he's being questioned by Polly and Ben, as we said, you weren't very convincing.

591
00:42:55.679 --> 00:42:59.219
You did look like you were kind of just letting this happen.

592
00:42:59.340 --> 00:43:00.900
What's the deal?

593
00:43:00.960 --> 00:43:02.639
And the doctor just laughs.

594
00:43:02.699 --> 00:43:10.619
And I think that that's a real moment for this new doctor that sets him apart from what we've had before.

595
00:43:10.920 --> 00:43:15.000
Yes, it's literally just, oh, you've blown up our power system.

596
00:43:15.059 --> 00:43:15.659
What are we going to do?

597
00:43:15.719 --> 00:43:16.739
It's like, come on, let's go.

598
00:43:16.800 --> 00:43:20.340
Yeah, before they say this bill. very kind of thing. before they say the bill, they always do that.

599
00:43:20.400 --> 00:43:22.679
They always leave like before they actually say goodbye.

600
00:43:22.739 --> 00:43:26.219
It basically continues throughout the whole era.

601
00:43:26.280 --> 00:43:32.760
Like, um, later in macraterra, they're like, let's get out of here before they make the doctor the leader in the moon base.

602
00:43:32.820 --> 00:43:34.079
It's like, let's just go.

603
00:43:34.139 --> 00:43:34.619
Let's just go.

604
00:43:34.619 --> 00:43:36.780
Before they start asking awkward questions.

605
00:43:36.840 --> 00:43:38.340
Yeah Yeah.

606
00:43:38.400 --> 00:43:51.119
Even through to, I think, Seeds of Death. where Commander Radnor turns around to ask for the doctor's help and he's already got it and they run back through a rainstorm to get to the Tartars.

607
00:43:51.900 --> 00:43:53.039
So, yeah.

608
00:43:53.099 --> 00:44:05.820
I mean, it is what we saw, I think, the trial run for this in the savages, and it's the thing that Stephen Moffatt is referring to when he says the doctor drops out of the sky and tears down your world.

609
00:44:05.880 --> 00:44:09.539
And this is the mode that the doctor will operate in now.

610
00:44:09.659 --> 00:44:14.699
And we've had a doctor who has been keen to get out of the situation.

611
00:44:14.760 --> 00:44:16.619
Like...

612
00:44:16.679 --> 00:44:16.920
Yeah.

613
00:44:16.980 --> 00:44:19.139
And we have that conversation, don't we?

614
00:44:19.199 --> 00:44:21.239
Where Polly says, can't we just leave?

615
00:44:21.300 --> 00:44:26.460
And the doctor doesn't actually say, no, we have to stay here and save these people from the Daleks at all.

616
00:44:26.519 --> 00:44:27.840
He just ignores them.

617
00:44:27.900 --> 00:44:30.119
You know, he just ignores it.

618
00:44:30.179 --> 00:44:33.119
So he's not sort of set himself up as a kind of crusader.

619
00:44:33.179 --> 00:44:34.739
He's not saying that he's here to hell.

620
00:44:34.800 --> 00:44:43.380
But that also is that fluid link thing from the Daleks about, I'm just doing what I want to do and if you're with me, well, you're just here for the ride.

621
00:44:43.440 --> 00:44:44.760
Yeah, I'm the driver.

622
00:44:44.820 --> 00:44:46.500
Yeah, yeah, I'll leave when I want to leave.

623
00:44:46.559 --> 00:44:47.400
Yeah.

624
00:44:47.460 --> 00:44:56.579
And he does, I mean, he does want to destroy the Daleks, but he doesn't mind the fact that he's also destroyed the power structure of the colony as well.

625
00:44:56.639 --> 00:45:00.360
Well, it's a bit stupid that Quinn's complaining that, you know, you've destroyed our power structure.

626
00:45:00.420 --> 00:45:01.500
Itll take months for us to sort it out.

627
00:45:01.559 --> 00:45:03.059
I mean, for God's sake, you were all being slaughtered.

628
00:45:03.119 --> 00:45:04.980
Yeah, in a sense, perspective.

629
00:45:05.039 --> 00:45:05.519
Calm down.

630
00:45:05.579 --> 00:45:17.280
But it's almost like in order to cure the disease, the doctor needed to, not the disease of the dark existing, but also the disease of the power struggle within the colony and all that.

631
00:45:17.340 --> 00:45:20.159
The doctor needed to let the Dalek thing run its course to a certain extent.

632
00:45:20.219 --> 00:45:25.559
He couldn't have just turned up and blown them up when they walk into the capture at the end of part one.

633
00:45:25.619 --> 00:45:26.099
You know what I mean?

634
00:45:26.159 --> 00:45:26.460
Yeah.

635
00:45:26.460 --> 00:45:31.860
Like he needed it to play out in order for the humans to be able to reconcile with each other.

636
00:45:31.920 --> 00:45:39.119
And I think what's interesting is that we go from the situation in episodes one and a bit of 2 where we don't trust the doctor and we don't know who he is.

637
00:45:39.179 --> 00:45:43.559
And then, you know, towards the end of it, we start to get a sense of him and we're more on his side.

638
00:45:43.619 --> 00:45:57.179
And then at that very end where Polly and Ben confront him and he just laughs and walks off, we're back to a doctor that we're kind of alienated from and who's refusing to allow himself to be understood.

639
00:45:57.719 --> 00:45:59.460
What colony?

640
00:45:59.519 --> 00:46:00.780
There's 2 people there.

641
00:46:03.179 --> 00:46:06.719
There were a lot of people on the outer perimeter.

642
00:46:06.780 --> 00:46:08.099
The out of primitive interior.

643
00:46:08.159 --> 00:46:10.440
There'll be a gene.

644
00:46:16.800 --> 00:46:22.079
One of the questions that this story raises is about versions.

645
00:46:22.139 --> 00:46:23.159
Yes.

646
00:46:23.159 --> 00:46:25.500
You know, so we've got lots of shaders.

647
00:46:25.559 --> 00:46:26.519
Yeah, that's right.

648
00:46:26.579 --> 00:46:28.199
But we have 5 doctors.

649
00:46:28.260 --> 00:46:30.659
Yeah, we have a number of these as well.

650
00:46:30.719 --> 00:46:37.679
So 7.5 to 8000000 people watched Power of the Daleks back in the day.

651
00:46:37.739 --> 00:46:41.159
I'm willing to bet that most of them are dead.

652
00:46:41.219 --> 00:46:42.719
That's bleak, isn't it?

653
00:46:42.780 --> 00:46:44.699
But a whole bunch of them are dead, I would say.

654
00:46:44.760 --> 00:46:46.380
Well, they were, most of them were children.

655
00:46:46.440 --> 00:46:47.159
No.

656
00:46:47.219 --> 00:46:49.440
Yeah, well, yeah, no, some of them probably were children.

657
00:46:49.500 --> 00:46:50.579
But do you know what I mean?

658
00:46:50.639 --> 00:46:52.920
Like quite a few of them are no longer with us.

659
00:46:52.980 --> 00:46:55.199
And so the versions that we have now.

660
00:46:55.260 --> 00:47:03.960
Yeah, even if, you know, generative AI and so on actually does come to the party in due course, you're never going to get a reflection of what it is.

661
00:47:04.019 --> 00:47:05.280
There's always going to be yet another version.

662
00:47:05.340 --> 00:47:08.519
And then even when we get the 1st version of that, there's 5 piece later, it's going to be another version.

663
00:47:08.639 --> 00:47:09.119
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

664
00:47:09.179 --> 00:47:13.199
That doesn't mean that we can't appreciate the story because 90% of it.

665
00:47:13.260 --> 00:47:15.960
I mean, the important part of it is there.

666
00:47:16.019 --> 00:47:18.780
You know, the script's never going to change the audio is never going to change.

667
00:47:18.840 --> 00:47:24.659
If I can just go back a bit if I may, and sort of just think about how we've got to where we are now.

668
00:47:24.719 --> 00:47:25.679
Yeah, okay.

669
00:47:25.679 --> 00:47:37.500
Now, when we all encountered at different times in different publications, but for some of us who are older, I mean, the early 80s is when we, you know, get like a celebration or, you know, the 20th anniversary radio time special.

670
00:47:37.559 --> 00:47:38.880
I know that it was mentioned in Dwim earlier.

671
00:47:38.940 --> 00:47:41.760
But that's when you discover, 0 my god, there are all these episodes that don't exist.

672
00:47:42.000 --> 00:47:51.059
What we also discover is that the synopsis for Power of the Daleks in like the making of Doctor Who or in those magazines is like 2 paragraphs or possibly one paragraph.

673
00:47:51.119 --> 00:47:56.219
Now, no normalisation, Power the Daleks is mysterious.

674
00:47:56.280 --> 00:47:57.239
It's unknown.

675
00:47:57.300 --> 00:48:01.500
And also, for me in 1983, it's unknowable.

676
00:48:01.920 --> 00:48:05.280
Didn't really think that there would be an audio copy of it.

677
00:48:05.340 --> 00:48:06.480
We just thought, it's gone.

678
00:48:06.539 --> 00:48:10.500
You thought, oh, maybe it could come back and you're optimistic, but it's gone, right?

679
00:48:10.559 --> 00:48:12.239
Not even a John Peel novelisation.

680
00:48:12.300 --> 00:48:14.340
No, but Sophie, why isn't it been novel?

681
00:48:14.400 --> 00:48:15.719
Anyway, point is, not even novelized.

682
00:48:15.780 --> 00:48:17.460
So it's so mysterious.

683
00:48:17.519 --> 00:48:25.559
Then we move through sort of the 80s and you get the revelation, there are audio copies of things, which are appalling quality.

684
00:48:25.619 --> 00:48:27.659
Just unlistenable.

685
00:48:29.099 --> 00:48:34.860
And then I think it's a DWB in 91, something like that.

686
00:48:34.920 --> 00:48:37.320
I don't know, someone will correct me, don't at me, please.

687
00:48:37.380 --> 00:48:42.119
Um, but that's when suddenly we discover that there are things, these things called tele snaps.

688
00:48:42.179 --> 00:48:48.179
So then suddenly we have all this photography representing every 60 seconds or so there's a photograph.

689
00:48:48.239 --> 00:48:50.159
Suddenly there are these images that we have for the 1st time.

690
00:48:50.519 --> 00:48:57.659
Then people start going, hey, we can put the audio onto these photos.

691
00:48:57.719 --> 00:49:01.199
Now, the 1st version of this I saw, I think it's around 1993, something like that.

692
00:49:01.260 --> 00:49:11.639
Around the 30th anniversary, I get this videotape from a friend, the 1st reconstruction I've ever seen, which, let's face it, is utterly unwatchable because, you know, I mean, how they possibly did this back then.

693
00:49:11.699 --> 00:49:14.039
I don't know they even it's so primitive.

694
00:49:14.099 --> 00:49:17.280
But nevertheless, and you know, the photos were changing so infrequently.

695
00:49:17.340 --> 00:49:18.539
The audio was such bad quality.

696
00:49:18.599 --> 00:49:20.760
I gave up 15 minutes in.

697
00:49:20.820 --> 00:49:22.079
I just it was just hopeless.

698
00:49:22.199 --> 00:49:25.739
Then, we realised that there's all these clips available.

699
00:49:25.800 --> 00:49:34.800
Not the super eight, but then there's all these other clips that appear like found from the sea from computer thing that Damian Shanahan finds and there's other bits that were in Blue Peter and stuff.

700
00:49:34.860 --> 00:49:41.159
All those bits of footage are kind of, if not found, maybe they're already known to exist, but in terms reach the fan consciousness.

701
00:49:41.219 --> 00:49:42.480
And it's not long.

702
00:49:42.539 --> 00:49:49.199
It's around that same time that they find that those films are super eight, of which Power of the Daleks one and 2 have a remarkable amount.

703
00:49:49.320 --> 00:49:50.159
Right.

704
00:49:50.219 --> 00:49:55.559
A remarkable amount of. so much. 10th planet 4 is the only one that comes close to matching it.

705
00:49:55.619 --> 00:50:03.059
So suddenly this thing that was completely, there was one paragraph for me in 1983, starts to have all this stuff.

706
00:50:03.119 --> 00:50:05.280
And then the proper reconstruction start.

707
00:50:05.340 --> 00:50:08.880
As people are able to sync them better with PowerPoint and so on like that, output things, the video signals.

708
00:50:08.940 --> 00:50:11.639
So I think it's 1999 that I get my 1st proper reconstruct.

709
00:50:11.699 --> 00:50:16.019
Oh, and then they find better quality audio copies, strong audios, which are quote unquote, crystal clear.

710
00:50:16.079 --> 00:50:23.039
Suddenly we've got audios we can listen to that are decent because those ones that we talked about earlier where Tom does the narration too.

711
00:50:23.099 --> 00:50:24.059
They were pretty rubbish.

712
00:50:24.119 --> 00:50:28.800
They were not nearly as good as, even though they were cleaned up as the ones that we know and love today.

713
00:50:28.860 --> 00:50:34.920
Anyway, point being that suddenly for the 1st time, I sit down and I hear about these reconstructions.

714
00:50:34.980 --> 00:50:39.420
I'm shown by a friend in the UK, episode one of the Savages, in episode one of Marco Polo.

715
00:50:39.480 --> 00:50:41.820
And we go, oh, this is going to be terrible.

716
00:50:41.880 --> 00:50:42.539
We're very cynic.

717
00:50:42.599 --> 00:50:43.679
We go, this is going to be unwatchable.

718
00:50:43.739 --> 00:50:45.900
I saw this power of the Daleks singing ages ago. was terrible.

719
00:50:45.960 --> 00:50:47.159
I watch it.

720
00:50:47.280 --> 00:50:54.539
And we both turned to each other after we watched the 1st episode of savages and we went, That was actually really quite cool.

721
00:50:54.599 --> 00:50:56.219
I actually really enjoyed that.

722
00:50:56.280 --> 00:50:57.480
I can watch another one.

723
00:50:57.599 --> 00:51:00.119
Don't have time to watch anymore at that time.

724
00:51:00.179 --> 00:51:03.000
Then I'd come back to Australia and I'm fine, right, where can I get these?

725
00:51:03.119 --> 00:51:06.539
Lovely guy in Australia called Bruce Robinson, who is making these.

726
00:51:06.599 --> 00:51:08.579
He's like the Australian wing, right?

727
00:51:08.639 --> 00:51:10.500
And then joint venture becomes this combined thing.

728
00:51:10.559 --> 00:51:11.519
I don't know the full history there.

729
00:51:11.579 --> 00:51:13.920
But the point is, so his ones had the script at the bottom.

730
00:51:13.980 --> 00:51:15.360
That was important too.

731
00:51:15.420 --> 00:51:16.380
So I had his copy.

732
00:51:16.440 --> 00:51:20.280
So the very 1st 2 that I got from him were Power of the Daleks and Enemy of the World.

733
00:51:20.340 --> 00:51:21.059
Oh wow.

734
00:51:21.179 --> 00:51:26.519
And that's why I always said I was an advocate for enemy of the world because I was watching enemy of the world and I was absolutely captivated.

735
00:51:26.579 --> 00:51:29.699
Likewise, I was captivated by Power of the Daleks.

736
00:51:29.760 --> 00:51:33.780
Yes, it was still a bit cranky at the time, but then the way it drops into this footage.

737
00:51:33.840 --> 00:51:36.119
The way you see that super 8 footage.

738
00:51:36.179 --> 00:51:36.900
And I was gripped.

739
00:51:36.960 --> 00:51:37.920
I didn't watch the whole thing once.

740
00:51:37.980 --> 00:51:43.619
But I was able to watch multiple episodes in a row without going, oh God, I can't keep watching this. terrible.

741
00:51:43.679 --> 00:51:45.780
Now I know some people deride them as slideshows.

742
00:51:45.840 --> 00:51:46.619
And that's fair enough.

743
00:51:46.679 --> 00:51:47.460
It not for everybody.

744
00:51:47.519 --> 00:51:49.920
And I also think that it doesn't suit every story.

745
00:51:49.980 --> 00:51:55.679
There are lots of stories which are terrible, which don't exist, and watching a reconstruction is bleak.

746
00:51:55.739 --> 00:51:56.219
Right?

747
00:51:56.280 --> 00:51:57.000
The massacre.

748
00:51:57.059 --> 00:51:58.739
Well, there are no telly snaps now.

749
00:51:58.800 --> 00:51:59.340
Yeah that's right.

750
00:51:59.400 --> 00:52:00.000
It's the problem.

751
00:52:00.059 --> 00:52:04.019
But the ones with Telus, I'm talking about the ones with Telesaps, and I want to make that distinction here.

752
00:52:04.079 --> 00:52:06.239
Marco Polo is another one that I can watch over and over again.

753
00:52:06.300 --> 00:52:06.719
Oh, yeah.

754
00:52:06.719 --> 00:52:09.000
Because there's so much visual material.

755
00:52:09.059 --> 00:52:19.980
But I suppose the point that I'm trying to say is that for me, I respect the animation teams very much, I appreciate that they're doing an awful lot with probably very little resources.

756
00:52:20.039 --> 00:52:24.539
They need many times the budget that they actually have in order to do something.

757
00:52:24.599 --> 00:52:28.800
I'd also note that the animations have become more and more distant from the actual story itself.

758
00:52:28.920 --> 00:52:33.360
When power was done, it was the 1st story to be done in its entirety before we'd just been filling in holes.

759
00:52:33.480 --> 00:52:35.340
It had just been invasion one and 4 and so on.

760
00:52:35.400 --> 00:52:43.440
This was the 1st round answer, and it's relatively faithful, not shot for shot exactly, but it's relatively faithful to stylistically to the original story.

761
00:52:43.500 --> 00:52:44.940
And they make choices.

762
00:52:44.940 --> 00:52:46.860
And that's fine. understandable choice.

763
00:52:46.920 --> 00:52:48.599
But for me, no, you're right.

764
00:52:48.659 --> 00:52:50.699
We cannot experience what they experienced in 1966.

765
00:52:50.880 --> 00:53:17.880
But I feel when you are a Doctor Who fan, as deep as I am in that era, I've watched a lot of these surrounding extent episodes so many times, you see those steel images on the screen, you see those flashes of Super 8, flashes of things, and you go into a kind of a trance, a stupor, and you're almost imagining that you're watching the moving footage and you can feel what Trouton's doing and you can feel what the other actors are doing because of the text and title.

766
00:53:17.940 --> 00:53:28.920
The look on Trouton's face at the end of episode 2 during which you see on the Super 8 footage and then the Telesapse is just astonishing and I think that that's what carries me through that and the ability to win it, then goes back to a still image.

767
00:53:28.980 --> 00:53:29.519
I can keep watching.

768
00:53:29.579 --> 00:53:34.380
I just feel that that is all swept away and lost when you watch an animation.

769
00:54:03.360 --> 00:54:06.059
Well, that's all the time we have for this week.

770
00:54:06.179 --> 00:54:14.639
We'll be back again next week, or in three years' time, to see what happens when they cancel our show again in Spearhead from Space.

771
00:54:15.119 --> 00:54:33.300
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts, and you can keep up with us on our website, 500yearDiary.com, where you'll find our social media links, as well as links to all of our other podcasts, including 2 Doctor Who podcasts, flights through entirety, and the 2nd great and bountiful human empire.

772
00:54:33.360 --> 00:54:40.019
Until next time, remember that it turns out that Hugo Boss Duds are no match for a Dalek neutraliser.

773
00:54:40.079 --> 00:54:42.420
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

774
00:54:42.480 --> 00:54:43.139
Good night.

775
00:54:43.260 --> 00:54:43.980
See you soon.

776
00:54:44.039 --> 00:54:44.699
Bye for now.

777
00:54:55.079 --> 00:55:04.440
That was 500 Year Diary, starring Nathan Bottomley, Brendan Jones, Simon Moore, and James Selwood, the theme was composed by Cameron Lamb.

778
00:55:04.500 --> 00:55:11.039
This episode, entering a new phase, was recorded on the 9th of March, 2024, and released on the 14th of April.

779
00:55:11.460 --> 00:55:19.320
This has been episode 281 of Flight 3 Entirety, and season one, episode one of 500 year diary.

780
00:55:19.440 --> 00:55:27.179
If you want to hear the rest of 500-year diary, goes a 500-year diary.com or look for us in your podcatcher of choice.

781
00:55:27.239 --> 00:55:29.340
We'll see you again next week.

782
00:55:41.400 --> 00:55:49.380
For me, um, watching original Star Trek and Star Trek The Next Generation with new opticals.

783
00:55:49.440 --> 00:56:00.119
I think, I think if anything can be done to make these accessible to an audience now, it should be done.

784
00:56:00.179 --> 00:56:03.719
They're not, neither of those shows are Shakespeare.

785
00:56:03.780 --> 00:56:07.920
And what existed in the past still exist.

786
00:56:07.980 --> 00:56:15.599
It's not like Star Wars where you can now no longer get a decent copy of Star Wars that was released in 1977.

787
00:56:15.840 --> 00:56:18.960
These versions don't erase the original.

788
00:56:19.320 --> 00:56:20.880
Um, and...

789
00:56:20.880 --> 00:56:22.320
So we're saying they have new special effects on them.

790
00:56:22.800 --> 00:56:25.199
The Star Wars, the Star Trek.

791
00:56:25.260 --> 00:56:26.699
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

792
00:56:26.760 --> 00:56:27.239
Yeah.

793
00:56:27.300 --> 00:56:29.760
So these versions don't erase the originals.

794
00:56:29.820 --> 00:56:42.840
And and for us now, you know, the power of the Dalek special edition also includes literally every bit, every bit of realia that...

795
00:56:42.840 --> 00:56:52.260
Sure, but not, but I mean, I didn't, I didn't have the 2020 version of the 2016 Blu-ray, and the, the reconstruction that's on that is just a slideshow, whereas the fan reconstruction has all...

796
00:56:52.260 --> 00:56:55.679
Does the 2020 reconstruction have the moving footage in it?

797
00:56:55.739 --> 00:56:59.579
I think it does, but I haven't watched it, but I remember that was one of the things they interest.

798
00:56:59.639 --> 00:57:10.320
That initial 2016 animation, though, is a bloody miracle that actually happened. initially...

799
00:57:10.380 --> 00:57:13.619
No, no, initially they were given 10 months to get it done.

800
00:57:13.679 --> 00:57:22.380
And then a decision was made high up at the BBC that they would launch it on the 50th anniversary of the story.

801
00:57:22.440 --> 00:57:22.920
Yeah, right.

802
00:57:22.920 --> 00:57:26.460
Which meant that their time frame was cut from 10 months to five.

803
00:57:26.519 --> 00:57:32.579
So the entire thing was done in such a compressed time frame, it's amazing, it turned out so well.

804
00:57:32.639 --> 00:57:36.239
Oh, yeah, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not saying that you're writing.

805
00:57:36.239 --> 00:57:39.960
And in some respects, whether I'm talking about the viewer experience.

806
00:57:39.960 --> 00:57:45.599
And also, just to your point, Nathan, about making this stuff accessible to as many people's.

807
00:57:45.659 --> 00:57:46.500
Fine, great, absolutely.

808
00:57:46.559 --> 00:57:54.719
I am a little sceptical about the willingness of children of today or people who are not not even children.

809
00:57:54.780 --> 00:57:59.820
People who are just haven't been Doctor Who fans since, you know, have only been Doctor Who fans in the new era, shall we say?

810
00:57:59.880 --> 00:58:05.340
The interest, I'd have thought the interest in this missing material is very niche.

811
00:58:05.400 --> 00:58:15.840
And I think they are kind of, there's something about me which thinks surely they are kidding themselves, is they think they are expanding the audience with this tinny mono soundtrack, regardless of the quality of the animation.

812
00:58:15.900 --> 00:58:16.500
You know what I mean?

813
00:58:16.559 --> 00:58:18.300
There's a limit to how much you can do.

814
00:58:18.360 --> 00:58:26.099
Yeah, it'd be interesting to see, it would be interesting to see because so much of this is now up on iPlayer in the UK. you know, some stats.

815
00:58:26.219 --> 00:58:27.480
Yeah, some stats.

816
00:58:27.539 --> 00:58:28.380
Which we'll never get again.

817
00:58:28.380 --> 00:58:29.099
We speak.

818
00:58:29.159 --> 00:58:44.579
No, we speak, we're speaking, you know, the week after the release of a new version of the Celestial Toymaker, where the animation style is literally nothing at all, like what we got to see, which people were raving about.

819
00:58:44.639 --> 00:58:46.199
I think that's somebody there.

820
00:58:46.260 --> 00:58:49.920
It's kind of the psychedelia of the entire thing matches.

821
00:58:49.980 --> 00:58:51.599
Yeah, it matches the concept of the story.

822
00:58:51.659 --> 00:59:00.719
Whereas I think that it's a betrayal to everyone involved to give people the impression that that's in any way a functional story.

823
00:59:02.400 --> 00:59:04.260
So when are we doing the celestial job?

824
00:59:04.320 --> 00:59:06.599
I think that might be a fair way down the front.

825
00:59:07.320 --> 00:59:09.420
But you know what I mean?

826
00:59:09.480 --> 00:59:23.340
Like, I, I, I, with a soundtrack as, as poor as it is, I'm highly sceptical that how many people who aren't specifically missing episodes of Ascionados or people who are really, really, really introductive, are going to be into it.

827
00:59:23.400 --> 00:59:25.619
It's not surely it's not a vehicle for new audiences.

828
00:59:25.739 --> 00:59:36.119
Well, my, my thing is, I'm, I'm, I'm absolutely all behind Make Pavma Sambova actually look like he's 200 years old.

829
00:59:36.179 --> 00:59:45.239
You know, but at the same time, so long as, as you say, Nathan, the original version is in some way in circulation.

830
00:59:46.019 --> 00:59:59.460
Something I do find very interesting when this debate comes up is fans who saw Tomb of the Cybermen at the time, when the print was rediscovered and it was coming out, there were lots of sort of interviews and things with them saying, oh, I can't wait to see it.

831
00:59:59.519 --> 01:00:17.340
That moment at the end of episode one, when a cyberman walks out and when Toberman throws the cyber controller across and it was so convincing and then we get it and it's a mannequin at the end of episode one and an empty cyber controller suit where the head falls off.

832
01:00:17.400 --> 01:00:18.360
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

833
01:00:18.360 --> 01:00:24.360
Um, on a 32 centimetre screen with bad reception with with sort of blurring at the edges.

834
01:00:24.420 --> 01:00:25.139
It probably looked wonderful.

835
01:00:25.199 --> 01:00:27.179
Oh, and memory as well.

836
01:00:27.300 --> 01:00:28.440
Memory as well.

837
01:00:28.500 --> 01:00:44.519
And the fact that as children, when we want when we want something to look good, we overlook its form, of course. you know, And I say this as a gamer who is still interested in games from the 80s and 90s and I go back to them now as an adult and I'm like, okay, I can see the pixels.

838
01:00:44.579 --> 01:00:47.280
I couldn't see the pixels when I was 12 because I wasn't looking for them.

839
01:00:47.340 --> 01:00:48.360
Pixels are part of the channel.

840
01:00:48.420 --> 01:00:49.619
We're all Doctor Who fans.

841
01:00:49.679 --> 01:00:50.639
Can I guess say?

842
01:00:51.780 --> 01:00:53.820
conversation's finished.

843
01:00:57.239 --> 01:00:58.679
Yeah.

844
01:00:58.800 --> 01:01:01.559
So sorry, where are you going with it?

845
01:01:01.619 --> 01:01:17.639
Oh, well, um, so it's, it's just kind of like, I think sometimes when the animation teams change things, it's to make it try and give a new audience the same feeling they had when they were 7 or 8 or nine.

846
01:01:17.699 --> 01:01:18.360
Oh, I do not.

847
01:01:18.480 --> 01:01:19.980
Yeah, I do not object to the change.

848
01:01:20.039 --> 01:01:24.239
And that's the thing, like, I don't think you, I completely, it's not completely logical for all the reasons you say it.

849
01:01:24.300 --> 01:01:31.260
Yeah, I think there are people who begrudge those changes and say that this is a betrayal of the original source material.

850
01:01:31.380 --> 01:01:44.699
And there's people, I think, who make up the vast majority who are like, it's like, oh, yeah, this is fine with me, which is the camp I'm in, and the camp you're in, which is, oh, I wish it was as close to the original as humanly possible, but I understand why they did that.

851
01:01:44.760 --> 01:01:46.860
Yeah, no, I'm not saying I wish.

852
01:01:46.920 --> 01:01:48.780
No, I'm not saying I wish the animation.

853
01:01:48.840 --> 01:01:52.739
No, I was just observing that power is more effective because then they start to...

854
01:01:52.800 --> 01:01:54.900
I don't mind the celestial tourmaker route.

855
01:01:54.960 --> 01:01:55.619
Yeah, absolutely.

856
01:01:55.679 --> 01:01:56.039
Why not?

857
01:01:56.099 --> 01:01:58.079
Because for me, it doesn't matter.

858
01:01:58.139 --> 01:01:59.579
Oh, do you know what I mean?

859
01:01:59.639 --> 01:02:00.420
It's an animation.

860
01:02:00.480 --> 01:02:01.500
So let's try something else.

861
01:02:01.559 --> 01:02:02.340
Okay, great.

862
01:02:02.400 --> 01:02:08.699
Because you never go, it's more that I still, and I still think, and I know it's very primitive at the moment and some of the, but there are some very good samples.

863
01:02:08.760 --> 01:02:30.719
There are some very good samples, but there are some very good samples, and I wonder whether the animation thing is going to be a blind alley that in 10 years time, we're going to be looking at these, AI generated episodes, that are going, hopefully cross fingers, if they go, if they do do it, hopefully are more faithful to the original, because I think that you can be more thankful to the original.

864
01:02:30.780 --> 01:02:30.960
Yes.

865
01:02:30.960 --> 01:02:32.460
That's what I'm observing.

866
01:02:32.519 --> 01:02:35.400
I love how faithful this is to the original.

867
01:02:35.519 --> 01:02:36.539
Yes.

868
01:02:36.599 --> 01:02:45.539
To the point where that moment, I think it's in episode 4 where the Dalek bumps into the camera is in the animation.

869
01:02:45.599 --> 01:02:47.159
Yeah, hilarious.

870
01:02:47.219 --> 01:02:49.619
Because they took out the, they took out the, in the actual episode.

871
01:02:49.679 --> 01:02:51.900
They took out the zombie bumping into the cabin in the web planet.

872
01:02:51.960 --> 01:02:55.320
So I can't trust these people. is back in the end of the world.

873
01:02:55.380 --> 01:02:56.159
Fabulous.